Yay New york is not Sodom and Gomorrah! This is not meant to be disrespectful but is there any scientific evidence that Sodom and Gomorrah even existed? Was god justified in killing thousands of people there including the lady he turned to salt for being curious? Anyway I don't want to offend anyone just{curious}?

Your know the ancient city of Troy was thought of as a myth and legend. Many people thought just like you that the city never existed and it went on that way for many centuries.

Until it was discovered in the early 1900's and those that survived the destruction of that city are thought to have been the creators of the greatest empire on earth of its time, The Roman Empire.

no evidence just speculation and hope from people who want it to exist

It's called Faith.

Yes it is called Faith. Does Dolan get a raise along with his new title? He is going to:

" convince the Vatican that his city is not a modern-day version of the Biblical Sodom and Gomorrah."

This he will do through a relativistic method by comparing NYC to DC.

The fool says in his heart "there is no God" Psalm 14:1

Amen

I want America to be the chosen people didn't we come far enough.

I think it is Rome that is likely to be closer to the spirit of Sodom and Gomorrah than New York City. I've heard about those Italian stallions, and I remember Berlusconi.

Answers are yes and yes. Sodom and Gomorrah did actually exist and yes we have a loving God but too many of His creation have chosen to serve satan. When we turn from evil and satan we experience an amazing and indescribable loving relationship with our Father and Creator. It's our choice.

spirit touched I am not disagreeing about the existence of Sodom and Gomorrah but do you think that there might have been infants and small children there? Or just all evil adults that deserved to die? Just asking thanks in advance....also fujikoma posted this ''Unlike Lott, who offered up his daughters for rape to a crowd of men. Oddly enough, those biblically immoral men didn't rape the daughters and never broke into Lott's home to get at his guests. Unlike the god that killed a bunch of children in Sodom and Gomorrah to punish those he didn't like. Pretty poor aim for an omnipotent being. Unlike Lott's daughters, who got their father drunk and raped him to get pregnant.'' Is this truespirit touched it seems you know about the bible?

Dolan was referring to the two cities which according to the Old Testament were destroyed by God because their people were sinful and wicked.

Is he referring to all the child molesting priests also?

I think the world is going to implode as criminal and wicked as church and religions have become today.

'Sodom and Gomorrah', was were not people but towns that were destroyed by massive earthquakes trigered by volcanoes.

Sometimes I feel these religious ding-a-lings all need to learn about the real world and the earth, and stop listening to the voices in their pea-brain heads.

End the lunacy and shut these religious institutions down.

The BS story of Sodom and Gomorrah was put in the Bible to justify moral superiority of the Jewish religion. Actually, ancient world was a much, much better place to live than Church run medieval Europe with their Unholy Inquisition.

Has anyone else noticed that the only folks who believe in the devil are the righteous fanatics among us? Satan gets no attention except from the religious right wing.

Nice post 1.12 you put a lot of soul into that, the wrong kind of soul but nevertheless..

The Abrahamic religion god is so 'loving' that it will send you to hell for endless torment just because you don't believe in him. Would you send your own child to hell for eternity just because it rejected you for some reason? A god - or a parent - who would do such a thing is not worthy of my respect!

Max - very well said. Thx.

Religion, all brands and types, are based on FAITH. Faith is believing in anything which we cannot prove or fully understand through scientific method. In this country, this is a protected right and should be respected by all of us. It is also true that those who have a faith and believe in any religion should respect the right of anyone who may disagree with those beliefs. Religion, in my opinion, belongs in the family and individuals, churches, mosques, and synagogues and should not be incorporated as any part of our politics or government, PERIOD!

You guys are all shallow. You (or I) will never fully understand God's ways, and you better be very scared of what he has in store on the day of judgement (which we will all face; 2 Cor. 5:10) but for the record, the ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah have been discovered southeast of the Dead Sea.

I'm not Catholic preach to someone who cares.

jd - shallow? NOT. Most free thinking, secular people work on the community level, shouldering a lot of responsibility for their fellow man. And they do this out of their respect for life, not because they fear God will punish them.

Scram - I have faith in a lot of things: that my ladder will support my weight for example. All real faith comes from experience. You have faith in democracy because of your experience - but there is no hard proof that it is a superior system. People believe in life after death for example, because they have experienced ghosts - it is an almost universal belief all over the world among the natural (native) religions. But the purely theoretical BS most 'modern' religions feed people is based on BLIND FAITH, and unverifiable assumptions. People should be free to believe whatever they want, as long as they are not forcing others to follow such beliefs. Like that marriage is only between one man and one woman - that is a purely religious dogma, shoved down people's throat just because that's what the religious majority believes.

Jd - of course the Bible thumpers like you have a patent on understanding God's ways, and that is why you condemn people like me. You are a bunch of hypocrites causing all sorts of suffering on earth ever since some desert tribesmen in Middle East 2500 years ago decided they were the 'chosen ones' in the eyes of their desert god. The earth has been burning ever since with religious hatred.

Max- If you were asleep in a burning house, and I was driving by, would you want me to bang on your door to awake you to your house being on fire? That's what real Christians try to do when they share Christ with you. I don't believe in God, I know Him. That's the difference between real Christians and "religion". I am against "religion", just like Jesus was. Please don't be angry because someone is trying to save you from a fire you are unaware of. It is done out of love and concern. Even if you don't believe it yet. And there is plenty of proof for God out there, you just need to be sincere and look instead of already having made up your mind.

Spew your hate Max. Bring it on. Hate like that is why people like me are inclined to let you wallow in it rather than do anything to help your agenda. You want to know why I will not support gay marriage, look no further than your own hate and the hate of others like you who just don't get it that not everyone is going to see it your way. You want acceptance, but won't accept other views yourself. Hypocrite! Pot and Kettle dude, you deserve what you get.

Amused - where do you get hate from in Max's posts?

You are a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I'm likely more awake than people like you will ever be. You have been spreading your message of gloom and doom for 2000 years. A shameless scam promising to deliver great goods after the client dies. Abrahamic religions are the easiest con game ever invented.
REAL spirituality is HERE and NOW, when you lead your life with dignity and purpose, respecting the entire Creation, and your intended role in the fabric of life. The world is on fire because people like you put a torch to it.

Igottasay this - wow. You are saying that you wouldn't do anything to help someone who didn't share your views?

How loving and "christian" is that?

New York City Rocks! Some of the nicest people I've ever met and truly a Cultural Delight................I think Catholic Officials need to QUIT THROWING STONES since they live in a HUGE, GLASS MANSION................

Amused - hate the sin, not the sinner - isn't that what Jesus supposedly said? So there is a place for hate in our heart after all. And I hate the BS people like you impose on others, just because you can, and believe you should. Study the contorted history of Christianity and Abrahamic religions in general to understand it's evolution and real origins. And don't let yourself be manipulated by religious leaders who merely seek wealth, control, and fame, like just about all pathetic US 'televangelists'.

How about all the "sodomizing" of children that the catholic priests have performed throughout the years? Unless they are talking about the Catholic priests in New York, that statement has no purpose or validity.

They should focus in countries where prostitution of children is allowed.

You are a bunch of hypocrites causing all sorts of suffering on earth ever since some desert tribesmen in Middle East 2500 years ago decided they were the 'chosen ones' in the eyes of their desert god. The earth has been burning ever since with religious hatred.

onejulia, wake up, that is called hate. No other description for it. He's hateful, he's peeved because he is gay and lots of people do not support his agenda and he cannot understand that so he tosses gas on everyone who believes there is a God and then throws in a match.

Obviously New York isn't Sodom or Gomorrah. Its the portal to a new universe.

Or haven't you watched enough movies lately? You know everything happens in New York.

And I hate the BS people like you impose on others, just because you can,

What am I trying to impose on you Max? You are confused in all of your hate. It is you, and other gays, who want to impose your views. You want to tell people what they "should" believe. You want to denigrate them for their views because they do not share yours. You want to tell them what to believe and how to run their religion because YOU think they are wrong. Hate blinds people dude, and it sure has confused you. I'm not really religious at all, but I'm sure not going to tell others what to believe, or that they are wrong about their faith in God because you want to marry some dude and they will not allow it in their church. It is You who wants to "Impose" that view.

Amused - no, I'm not gay, did your desert god tell you that in a dream? I believe in Father Sky and Mother Earth. I believe in sun, rain, wind, moon, fire, water, and earth. Does that make me a pagan in your eyes? You think I care how you see my beliefs? Did we 'pagans' ever start a religious war? How many millions of people have you Abrahamic religion folks butchered in the name of your god in the last 25 centuries?

Amused - people who believe in Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) have a nasty, nasty habit of imposing their beliefs and their morality on others. Study history and look at current Muslim countries for the most obvious examples of this behavior even you can likely agree is asinine.

Amused - we live in the LAND OF THE FREE. a secular nation, where there is seperation of church and state.

if he wants to marry a dude, thats not telling religious people how to think or believe...it's simply saying to them "you cant tell ME how to think and believe"

it seems, you're the confused one...and perhaps the blind one too.

GOD gave man free will, if it was good enough for him...it should be good enough for all of his followers.

Dont like gay marriage? dont have one.

He's hateful, he's peeved because he is gay and lots of people do not support his agenda

Amused, oh, you really must crawl out of that mental box you live in. It sounds like you are angry that someone doesn't agree with you.

And, hey, how can you extract a sexual orientation through the internet. Are you psychic?

Actually Jessica, I would like to be able to marry two ladies, preferably twins, and live a happy life loving them both with all my heart. But if two guys or two ladies want to get married, it does not bother me one bit.

Everytime critics say "that person or place never existed so the bible is wrong" end up being proven wrong themselves.

And, now, the liberal media is soft pedaling the issue. The story says Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because the cities were wicked and sinful. If you read the Bible it says the specific wickedness. It talks about how all the men, from young boy to old man wanted to have sex relations with the angels. So the sin and wickedness was rampant homosexual behaviour.

Anyone who's done even a little bit of reading about the historical/biblical nature of Sodom and Gomorrah, realize that the "sins" of these cities are in debate.

you can believe all you want that the BIG SIN was homosexuality, but many texts - including hebrew texts - point to the sin of inhospitality, economic crimes and bloodshedding (war).

go ahead and pretend that my gayness is a bigger problem than christians who engage in economic criminality or inhospitality.

im not the one bitching about the illegals to "go back to where you came from"...im not the one wanting to interrogate "strangers" as republicans want to do of brown people who might be mexicans...im not the one engaging in economic crminality like the folks on wallstreet and most elected officials, and im not the one who's supportive of war.

you all have to make sure before you meet your maker that you're truly on the right side of "sin"...as GOD see's it, not as you see it.

That is, if there is even a GOD at all...who knows, there might not be.

Or there might be.

I'll just focus on being a good person, and living a good life and hope it's good enough for GOD if he exists. I would hope, he's not so egotistical that he truly needs me to worship at his sockless toes.

As I remember S&G did exist. The problem with the story is that the religious zealots have twisted it to their liking. The reason god supposedly destroyed the cities was not because of evil, debauchery and all that sort of stuff, but instead because the citizens of S&G were not hospitable to strangers. They should have Miss Manner's column in the S&G papers.

Agent Tom

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. —Gen 19:5

Im just curious, where specifically in the bible does it SPECIFICALLY say it was homosexual acts?

you (and other crazy christians) are assuming the word KNOW means "to have sexual relations"...and perhaps you assume this because Lot then offers up his virgin daughters for them to "do as they please with"...but just because he offers it, doesnt mean that what they wanted...especially since they refuse the offer, and demand to "do worse to lot than they would have done to his guests"

to me, that doesnt sound like "good gay sex times" that sounds like VIOLENCE, AGRESSION, RAPE...or POSSIBLY MURDER

which to me means, these folks...just coming off of war (having defeated Elam with the help of Abraham to free the 5 cities from Elams rule) were suspicious of "strangers" and mostly, not interested in be hospitable, and likely wanted to "eliminate" this stranger from their town.

But yeah, I bet they just wanted to have good ol fashion gay sex orgies...right?

Which begs the question...why is the townspeople desire to have gay sex with these strangers MORE of a crime, than Lot offering his virgin daugthers to the entire towns men to "do as they please with"

THATS A CHRISTIANITY I WILL NEVER SUPPORT

A bipolar GOD I can never love.

Max - thats why I said IF - I would hate to ASSume :-)

Jessica, Just because someone in the Bible said something, doesn't mean that God condoned it. The Bible has a TON of stuff said in it that people shouldn't have said, and then ignorant people who have never read it all pick out parts and say "see, God promotes XXXX". No, it is mentioned, no promoted. Just like our illustrious god in chief saying the bible promotes slavery. No, it mentions it because it existed in that day. And as far as Sodom and G, when the Bible says they wanted to "know" them, anyone who HAS read the Bible knows what that means- sexual relations. Again, all through the book it is the same. BUT, if all you have is ignorance and hatred, well, you can just make stuff up and post your ignorance here.

Igotta... look here for some Biblical examples of things supposedly dear to your god : http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm

Max^108,

RE: your post #1.22

I believe some of this particular post. I would disagree with the step ladder analogy. You, or I, trust the wight bearing capacity, NOT out of faith, but because the ladder has been tested physically and you KNOW it will withstand your weight. I further disagree that faith is based on experience. Faith, to me is the opposite of experience, it is the unknown and not experienced phenomenon. I agree with the balance of your post as long as you can accept the FACT that faith is believing in something which cannot be proven. We both use the term faith and ascribe this word where it actually does not belong in the strictest of definition. Some examples: I have faith in my wife. I have faith in my golf swing, I have faith I can jump a fence, etc. When I am using the term in this discussion I am limiting its definition to the strictly SUPERNATURAL REALM as it applies to belief in a God. When that is the limit, then it is either provable fact or believed in through FAITH! Have a GREAT weekend!

The BS story of Sodom and Gomorrah was put in the Bible to justify moral superiority of the Jewish religion. Actually, ancient world was a much, much better place to live than Church run medieval Europe with their Unholy Inquisition.

The bible was written by man and the sheeple are just too stupid to see that they all have been hoodwinked by all these charlatans that are running all these religions institutions.

Save your money and protect your family from these religions and churches ran by all these charlatans.

Igottasaythis.....

In your argument, you're ignoring the fact that your god is the arsonist.

What? Are you talking about all the pedophile priests or the sneaking of Nazis out of WW2? Or maybe all the murderous "popes" through the ages (read some books on the history of the papacy, written by the papal historians themselves. The papacy was bought, sold, murdered for,...google "banquet of chestnuts" for some REAL fun). Yeah, they are a bastion of morality for the rest of us. Right. Don't follow a "pope", follow Christ. Read your Bible. There you will find Life.

Say what?! Archbishop Dolan must convince the Pope New York isn't "Sodom and Gomorrah"? When reading Biblical accounts of these places, one understands rather quickly that the present Entity most reflectively indulgent of the decadence described by those accounts is the Catholic Church Itself. What a pack of "self serving hypocrites"! New Yorkers should be rightfully insulted!

It's like the pot calling the kettle black.... How's life in the Vatican?

Sadly the whole world is becoming more evil with each passing day, Yeshua ask, will He find any faith on the Earth when He returns?

Nacio, if there is no faith there will be no return. The return thing is all in the minds of the believers where it belongs. Reality to the rest of us demands a little more substance.

tex: I've got to disagree. The lack of faith will not prevent the return of Jesus. Once that becomes the reality that I believe it will, it will be too late for the non-believers. He will return, whether a person chooses to believe or not.

Sadly the whole world is becoming more evil with each passing day

Actually the facts disagree with you. The world of today has better nutrition, less violence and less crippling disease than that of just 50 years ago. And WAY less than a few hundred years ago.

Yeah right. I guess that's why when a woman gets raped in the subway at Times Square in Manhattan in the middle of rush hour, everyone looks but does nothing to help. What do you call that?

thenight,

You've never been to New York, have you?

3rdpartyadvocate Speaking of New York; I like your avatar. The first time I saw that painting by Edvard Munch, "The Scream," or "The Cry" was at the Guggenheim Museum at Fifth Ave. and 89th St. New York, New York. Cool, very cool. I always start at the bottom and walk up.......

I just hope that there are fewer people who don't know the difference between "less" and "fewer". Invisible Pink Unicorn please make it so!

Where's the proof?

Where is your proof "thenight"? Religion is just another business model to gives man mental comfort. God rewards a big giver - right..

Religion is hope for many who have none. I know, I know some priests have been exposed as pedophiles, and we're going to hear that plenty on this thread, but to automatically condemn everything good the church does because of a bad few is childish and wrong.

The church, especially the Catholic church, helps those who have no hope. They help single, unwed moms get back on their feet. They give shelter to anyone who shows up and needs help. They take care of and help the poor in any city or town across the US.

The church helps people who are outcast- the ones that the "elites" won't touch. Name one atheist group that does half the amount of good that the church does. (crickets chirping...)

Yes the church does good but there is evil too..the most serious one being the total rejection of artificial birth control...Hardly a wise policy in an overcrowded world,,.,.Traditionally the church has always been associated with the rich and powerful..and has a very intolerant attitude toward others who they consider not divinely inspired...Check your history

..The worst part about religion is that its based on fantasy..

Religion can and should offer comfort and hope to those who want to achieve that through religious belief. It should not, however, be crammed down everyone else's throats (or as is the case in VA, up a woman's vagina) in a free society. Dolan is just sucking up to the boss before he gets his promotion.

Hi C. where is YOUR proof that religion is based on fantasy?

Religion shouldn't be pushed down peoples throat, but yet the non-believer should be able to run to the courts and bitch and moan about everything. I used to never decorate on Christian Holidays, I do now because the Atheist asses next door pissed me off. I have the largest nativity sitting out doors with flood lights on it at night. You want religion out of everything, but to push your own agendas.

Hey, We, I'm so glad you realized the true spirit of Christmas. Put out a nativity just to annoy your neighbor. Now that's mature...lol.

Religion is about control, not God.

Grent-Independent,

Your post #6.9 speaks volumes about the Roman Catholic Church throughout the centuries. Sadly, many on the Vine will not dwell and think this wisdom through to the logical conclusion you have posted! It is not only the Roman Catholic Church, but ALL churches of every conceivable denomination and size.

According to Google, there are approx. 2000 churches and 4000 informal places of worship in NYC. 83% of New Yorkers are affiliated with some religious organization, which is a larger participation than the State of New York, and one of the highest in the United States.

Perhaps the Catholics just want more free press with this pitiful attempt to circumvent personal spiritually and faith.

Is there such a thing as religious bullying? Took me about 5 min. of searching the Net to begin to wonder.

http://didyouknow.org/number-of-churches-and-mosques-in-new-york-city/

NYC a moral beacon? For who? The child molesting teachers recently being rounded up and then remain on the government dole for years? NYC , a hub of the sex slave trade. You keep bringing up the priest scandal like obama brings up it's bush's fault excuse.

gmule23

You've never been to New York, have you?

I used to live in New York City. I know that place better than most on this Forum, I was born and raised there. All I have to say is thank God I left that place and never to return.

Paul Cross-4901652

Where is your proof "thenight"? Religion is just another business model to gives man mental comfort. God rewards a big giver - right..

As the old saying goes from my late Grandmother and may she rest in peace: "Giving is recieving"

the only thing the church has is to try to scare people with hell. the answer to what happens after death was the only thing powerful that they got away with everything for centuries. people fear death. not because of dying but because humans cant envision their thoughts not existing. thats where the whole soul thing comes into play. most people really think they have a spirit that is able to leave the body. they dont know that the voice in their head originates in their brain.

Most people are idiots.

barry, i dont want to put it like that because religion had centuries to perfect its indoctrination practices. most people wont even read a richard dawkins book because they were taught that it is surely a work of satan. its drilled in to them from birth. its kind of sad.

The church has only two things to sell you which are very cheap and abundant...hope and fear...emphasis on fear. Gotta keep people scared so that they come back to you for answers...BTW, make sure you drop some in the plate while you're at it.

Simply childish and wrong. I can't speak for other churches but the Catholic church does far more good than any other charitable organization out there. I know a few bad apples have been exposed as pedophiles, but that should not automatically condemn the entire church and their good works.

The Catholic chuch helps unwed moms in my home town, even house and feed and clothe them. Because no one else will (and most of these moms aren't Catholic).

The church helps the outcast and gives hope and comfort to drug addicts who ran out of money, elderly street people with no place to go, people on the verge of suicide. Many who are helped are not even Catholic. Name ONE atheist or "elite" organization that will do that. Just easier to criticise from your moms computer, isn't it?

It's funny, the same "elites" that are bashing the church on this thread probably send their kids in their sharp uniforms to the best Catholic schools.

I went to a catholic school and the nuns were very dedicated and hard working but that doesnt change the fact that they are very intolerant of others and the entire history of the middle ages shows that.

Anytime you have a group of people that thinks god is talking to them and they are infallible .,,.well you are headed for trouble..

And why do you use the word "elites" do you realize how absolutely stupid it is for rightwinger to use that word in describing their opponents??

Casual - yes the church does many nice things, but in my state the shelters for the homeless, battered women's shelters and drop-in centers and treatment programs for addicts are all run by non-profit organizations which are not affiliated with any church. And my experience with "unwed mothers" is that churches are very helpful until they actually give birth and become mothers. Then they are shuffled off to the state welfare system in very short order. After that, conservatives can vilify them for being promiscuous and living off the taxpayer.

Hi C. Thank you fo exposing yourself as another Leftwing, religion hating, know-it-all.

What happened in your life to make you so angry?

@Commonsenseguy1

What happened in your life to make you so angry?

My guess is that he, like many of us, are constantly faced with devout "Christians" shoving their religions down our throats in public schools and through the government/legislation. Why is it that you people can't express your faith by living in accordance with your beliefs and respect that your right to expression, even when your faith requires evangelizing, ends where it starts trampling on the 1st (and 14th) amendment rights of others?

casual taxpayer is right. But the rule is "one aw crap wipes out ten attaboys". And So the Church should keep it's yap shut outside the church. The church has a lot to atone for. The church should concentrate on leading by example - meaning, continue all the good works, stop the pediphilia, throw out the pediphile priests and perverts, turn them in to law enforcement. Do not defend them. Put your own house in order. After some years of clean living and good works the Church's message to those outside the church will be accepted earnestly. Until then, preaching morals while violating a good bunch of them is just hypocracy and will not be accepted by most people inside and outside the church. One would not think one would have to say these basic things. It is incredible how simple little principles need to be taught to those who would teach us.

Does that go for all of the other religions as well?

Fact is most HUMANS believe in one form, or another of a Higher power. Your argument that is against Christians is flawed.

If you don't agree with people expressing their faith, then you can always turn the channel. There's lots of other stuff on t.v.

Of course I can change the channel, or not attend a church or any number of other ways to distance myself without forcing those expressing their beliefs to stop doing so. What I can't get away from is religion forcing laws on a free, non-theocratic government and diverse population that are based on their "faith" and inflict those beliefs on me. And yes, that goes for all religions. The pending law in Virginia which will require women who choose to have a legal medical procedure to submit to transvaginal ultrasound (in other words compelling women to submit to mechanical rape in order to exercise their rights) is an example of theocratic over reach imposing religious beliefs on someone who does not subscribe to those beliefs. I can think of no other circumstance in which anyone is required to submit to such a violation and humiliation in order to simply exercise their rights.

Did I miss something? The article is about a Catholic archbishop willing to convince the Vatican poor ole NYC is not some 3000 year old cities mentioned in his bible.

The whole willingness thing is suspect because this is the SAME priest that was in the news less than 2 weeks ago trying to tell the whole US of A a thing or two about birth control.

Oh yeah, and he's soon to become cardinal, a very nice and prompt reward for roiling up the whole country with his religion about no birth control.

Just another celebrity wanting to drag out his 15 minutes....

Intolerant of others, give me a break. People who call themselves liberals are the most intolerant people on the planet. You can find anywhere on this site where liberals constantly demean and call those who disagree with them names.

I'd hate to live in a world controlled by liberals who have proven themselves so quick to judge others, yet very rarely actually help anyone. Lets remember as stated above, you CAN NOT name a liberal organization that does as much good for others as the catholic church not just in this country, but worldwide.

Janet: I agree. The most intolerance toward others I've seen has been at the hands of self proclaimed liberals.

Only God can be eternal

what does that even mean.

Wow that's good, trying to condemn the catholic church because there are a few bad apples in the religion. I guess that's why a Methodist church in Georgia wrapped this pastor in a shroud that is over a thousand years old, called him the next king and that pastor is himself a child molester. Don't believe me? Look it up in You-Tube. How self righteous! And yet no one talks about that. Explain that!

thenight, most of us condemn all child molesters and those that dont are the molesters. its disgusting. im atheist so i condemn all religion as useless and negative in its impact nowadays. people dont need to value a nonexistant god when we have enough fellow humans that they could value.

@thenight - with regards to the Catholic Church vs molesters in other denominations/faiths - yes we can agree that members of clergy in other faiths have done the same as the Catholic Priests but none (not even the Southern Baptists which had their own scandal) had one quite so far reaching and endemic buoyed by the tacit approval by way of cover up, quiet relocation of priests given new flocks in which to repeat their pattern of abuse.

SAICS- Not to mention giving safe haven to some of it's pimps like Bernard Law. That hideous excuse for a human being will never step foot in the US again for fear of FINALLY facing justice for what he did to Catholic children in the Boston area...shuffling pedophiles from parish to unsuspecting parish. The Vatican gave him a cushy job and a comfortable spot to live out the rest of his miserable life. People like Law had better hope that people like me...those that don't believe in heaven or hell...are right, because if there is a hell, he's going to need his asbestos undies on the trip to the afterlife.

Oh here it comes- because of a few bad apples the whole Catholic church is condemned by our atheist "elites" here on MSNBC typing from their moms computers..

The church has done far more good for the poor and outcast in this society than ANY organization out there. Period. Atheists just aren't interested in those who have nothing and are deperate for help.

Wow Casual...can you get any more cliche..."from Mom's computer"? How pathetic. For what it's worth, I'm a 53 year old recovering Catholic typing this from my home office computer. Nice try, well not really.

You totally miss the point. Its not about the "few bad apples", which of course there are, but the corrupt and morally bankrupt organization that for years denied there was even a problem, then decided to shelter it's worst offenders. If you, Mr Good Christian, found out that a member of your family was molesting children, what would YOU do? Protect them, or protect the children being abused? Or better yet, "what would Jesus do"? My guess is that Jesus wouldn't pat them on the head, say it's OK, and set them up for a comfortable life.

Pittsburgh...another angry liberal. What makes people like yuo SO angry at the world?

@Casual US Taxpayer

The church has done far more good for the poor and outcast in this society than ANY organization out there. Period. Atheists just aren't interested in those who have nothing and are deperate for help.

So good deeds negate the responsibility and impact of bad ones? So Jerry Sandusky is still a great man because of all his philanthropy which makes up for everything he did to his victims? The Catholic Church tortured and murdered my ancestors who refused to be forcibly converted, those they did forcibly convert were also tortured until they could escape but hey the church does good deeds so it's all well and good.

There are lots of other religious and non-religious organizations that do a hell of a lot of good that didn't tacitly approve heinous actions by it's leadership, assist them in finding new pools of innocent victims and then constantly stand in the way of legal action or other protections. Catholics and religious people of other fundamentalist/orthodox movements do not have any where near a monopoly on helping others so can your BS vilification of liberals as evil "atheist elitists". Sorry to burst your bubble but, the fact that liberal/progressive people of faith, agnostics and atheists don't rue education in favor of blind faith doesn't make us elitist snobs, it makes us conscientious. Oh and BTW, when we do good deeds (and we do them en masse) we do them because it's the right thing to do unlike you who do them for some great reward.

Wow, wouldn't want to be standing next to you during the next lightning storm.

You must keep in mind that a devout Catholic is a person that has been brain washed from birth and is ruled by fear and guilt. Without the fear and guilt that the RCC inflicts on its ignorant masses there is no Vatican. The argument that the RCC does more good than evil is absurd and doesn't excuse the evil.

Pittsburgh.....you obviously are not a historian of the period and know little of how the church interacted with the holocaust. Pope Pius XII personally oversaw an operation that hid half a million Jews in Rome, and he risked distruction of the Vatican by ferrying hundreds of thousands of others to safety. I encourage you to never post blind lies on the internet again. Oh and as for the inquisition.....that was Spain's twisted incantation of the catholic church, not a representation of the church itself.

You mean the homosexual sex abuse scandal which has been resolved now that gays are prohibited from entering the Priesthood anymore. And for your information and your apparent ignorance, the Church saved more Jews during the Holocaust than any other group or person and as a matter of fact the chief Rabbi in Rome converted because of it..... The hate, intolerance and bigotry is sickening on this site...Sodom & Gomorrah is certainly coming to the USA with all the sodomy laws being forced down our throat...Boy, will you all be surprised the day you meet your Maker.....

Can I get an, "AMEN!"?!

There is no way to have "religion", i.e. God and the Bible which is His Word, in one's heart, home and place of worship, without it affecting the way one lives........

...but there is a way to keep it from affecting the lives of others. By keeping it where it belongs.

My religion teaches me to keep God in every thing I do. So is it your desire to strip my religious freedom and not allow me to practice my religion?

Smith, are you kidding me? I am told as a Christian, through God's Holy Word, to be a disciple and spread the Truth, which is found in the Holy Bible. I cannot sit down and roll over and allow secularism to swallow us up. You can only wish but it will not happen.

No Gloryhound...by all means, practice what you believe. Just keep your morality and beliefs out of MY life. I have the same right you do...freedom to exercise, or not, religion. If you want respect for your choice, you need to show respect for mine.

And Mark, you also in return, need to show respect for what we believe.

Fights: I do...until you step over the line and try to force your morals and beliefs on me. At that point, you lose the right to any respect. You get to believe what you believe, and I get the same right...if we both respect that concept, life is good.

Religion is a belief system and does not qualify for respect. Judaism, islam and christianity do not state freedom of religion in their special little books. They also don't state that men and women are equal (we aren't talking physically, but legally, politically... you know what this means). They tacitly approve of slavery by setting up rules by which to own slaves. They approve of rape, child murder, and a host of other items that are illegal in our current society.

So no... your sky fairy beliefs do not get respect. You are entitled to be treated with respect until you cross the line and infringe on someone else's rights, but you do not have the right to not be offended, which is where this argument of yours is heading (i.e. being told your beliefs are wrong).

To Fights and others who believe their religion requires proselytizing is a requirement of their religion ... can you really not see how insulting it is to others to be told that your way is the "right" way and others' religious choices are "wrong"?

Religion, spirituality, belief in G-d are all very personal things. They have an important place in influencing how we live, but I believe G-d wants us to respect others and their choices. There are many paths to leading a righteous and worthy life, and it is not my position to convince others that my way is any more correct than theirs.

I believe the same Mark, I believe secularists and atheists try to force their beliefs on the America and the world, the schools, etc. So you have to EARN our respect as well.

No, because I believe atheists are just as much "proselytizers" as Christians. Don't believe me, they've forced their nonbeliefs on this countr, in our schools, on TV. Don't think you're not, because YOU ARE!.

Fights, that is absurd. I am, by the way, not an atheist, but my religion is not Christianity. I have a right to not be confronted by people telling me my religion is wrong, and my kids have a right to go to public school and not be told their religion is wrong, as well. I don't expect them to get religious instruction in their (or any) religion in school, or on TV, etc. I feel confident that I can take care of that part of their education at home and at our chosen place of worship.

The idea that "nonbelief" is being forced on anyone is patently absurd.

I'm sure people are constanting confronting you, right? We have Hitchens and Dawkins constantly in our faces saying there is no God, when I know there is.

smithkov - I am sorry that you've had bad experiences with Christians. I am a follower of Jesus' teachings and believe who He claimed to be... and if we were ever to cross paths I can only hope you would see something in me that isnt threatening to you, but instead makes you feel accepted and loved just as you are.

fights, I don't even know who Hitchens and Dawkins are, so clearly they aren't in my face confronting me about G-d (who I believe in, by the way, and my faith in G-d is not the slightest bit hurt by the fact that not all believe in G-d).

I have never been confronted by an atheist. Never. I have been confronted by proselytizing Christians - on street corners, knocking on my door with literature, or even on boards such as this where people feel the need to proclaim they are right and I am wrong and doomed to hell because my religion is different from theirs.

If you live in an area where atheists do these things, then I guess your anger toward atheists might make some sense. (I have truly never heard of such a thing, but I guess it is possible).

Regardless, that still doesn't give you, or anyone, the right to profess your religion as the "correct" one over anyone else's.

I would never try to convert you to my religion, and ask the same respect from you and others.

Arguments over the existence of God remind me of grade school arguments I had over the existence of Santa Claus.

Santa Claus DOES exist, so let's quit with the skepticism and move on with our lives!!

LOl...Hitchens has one thing none of us has...the truth about it all. He died a couple of months ago, so he knows for sure if there is or isn't a God, heaven or hell, etc.

Smithkov - if the Gospel is not meant to be EVERYWHERE, then why did Jesus tell the disciples to go out an preach it to all peoples? Just askin'.

Oh, and Fights...you named 2 people who "proselytize" that there is no God. I could fill pages listing the names of those that are "constantly in our faces" telling us all the opposite...and expecting us all to follow THEIR beliefs. This argument is disingenuous at best...and you don't "know" anything about it, you believe it.

So can I Mark. And they force their "nobeliefs" (which is a joke considering it is a belief) down our throats on on this country!

Ray M,

Because many religions are, in so many ways, like mental viruses. The exclusive "truth" that each purports to embody will cease to exist if new minds are not infected either by parents teaching their children or people persecuting those who don't believe.

The tendency of humanity to embrace religion with blind faith in spite of anything and everything that may say it's fantasy, completely relative to one's era and the culture within which one lives, and contrary to the observable facts of the universe, is similar to the tendency of crack addicts to stick to their hard and addictive drug in the face of all who may say that it's a destructive habit to indulge in.

I would bet that if "God" itself revealed to each believer that their holy books are based on lies, half-truths, misinformation, and evil, the believers would forsake their own God in favor of what the bible says. They necessarily have more faith in the word of man that proclaims itself to be the divinely-inspired word of God than God itself.

I'm sure that will ruffle a few feathers. I don't mean to be insulting to anyone personally, but if a religious fellow is entitled to think I deserve eternal suffering for not being part of their "group," then I am entitled to say exactly how I feel about their beliefs, am I not?

That all being said, I would not call myself an atheist, at least not a practicing one.

Really Fights? Lets see...we have CBN, EWTN, TBN, CTN & TWN...just to name a few of the all Christian, all the time, networks. That's not even counting Jewish or other religious programming. Can you name even one atheist network? I didn't think so. Atheists (and I am not one, by the way) generally just want to not have religion jammed down their throats. For you to say that they are doing just that to believers is laughably hypocritical.

Fights you have every right to believe in a religion, any religion. However our 'freedom of religion' in the Constitution implies that we also have 'freedom FROM religion' as well, especially in our form of government.

I certainly don't want laws based on some theological theme running our government which is exactly what the bishop wishes to do!

Nora, Nora, brainwashed to believe that I see. Read it, it says freed OF religion, not FROM religion. Cood gracious, how old are you, 5?

Fights...

Freedom OF religion also includes FROM religion. What you're logically claiming, is that someone has a 'right' to be a satanist, christian, islamist, jew, zeus-worshipper or any other-imagined-god worshipper, but they don't have a 'right' to NOT believe??? It's no different than the freedom of association. Does that mean I don't have the right to NOT associate with a group or organization? Even taking your view, you still ignore the 14h amendment, which contains the EQUAL PROTECTION CLAUSE.

I guess even five year olds have a better understanding of civics than you do.

Oh here we go again. name one atheist organization that helps the poor and hopeless in your community- hmmmmmm.

I guess if you're an atheist who loves to forget all the world-wide staggering GOOD that the church does daily because a few bad apples have been exposed, that will get you far on MSNBC. Only on MSNBC!!!!!!

Casual you really dont know what you are talking about...,obviously you were born and raised a catholic and never bothered to question it,,more interested in defending it than in thinking about it..

Casual US taxpayer, there are many, many secular (ie nonreligious) organizations that help the poor and homeless (I assume you meant homeless and not "hopeless").

Casual. You can't argue with an angry liberal. they will just call you "stupid". most of these haters are angry at the world.

I often wonder if it's because they have to defend the fact that they were probably raised by divorced parents.

Fact is most Catholic families stay together (Mom Dad = female, male), and the kids are much better off.

Commonsense - I just love it when someone tries to bash someone else for being insulting by turning around and insulting someone.

Can you really not see the hypocrisy?

By the way the divorce rate atheists/agnostics is actually lower than that of any faith group studied (including my own faith, just so you don't think I am putting these numbers out there to be self-serving).

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

I love how people bash the Catholic church for a few bad apples when they don't even bother to look at all the GOOD the church does throughout the world, it amazes me all the hate from the atheists and other "groups" who from their self-proclaimed high moral standpoint say I'm uninformed for standing up for the good the church does.

You will never see a Catholic go door to door asking for converts. You will never see a Catholic bashing other's beliefs. Atheists and other self-proclaimed higher cultural authorities are morally bankrupt and feel good only when putting down others beliefs. I'm sorry but it's the truth- I see it over and over and over on these boards. That's what they do best- crush Catholics to feel good. But I enjoy getting in their face, and I'm glad to see I'm having some effect.

And don't forget- all the docs and lawyers send their kids to the best Catholic schools- as most of you can't.

Lets see mexico is 89% Catholic and we see how saintly that place is.

89% CATHOLIC IN MEXICO WHERE KIDNAPPING PEOPLE AND REQUIRING MONEY FOR PAYMENT IS A WAY OF LIFE..

Want more examples pay your way to God Look at Newt 2 wives with children pay some money to the priests and now your a catholic and the other children are bastards..That exactly what the church classifies his children as born out of wedlock

shall we look at how Catholic Churches are harboring illegal aliens oh but its freedom of religion

And as regards to catholic hospitals gee maybe the CHURCH SHOULD GET OUT OF HEALTHCARE IF THEY DON'T WANT TO LISTEN TO THE DOCTORS

tHE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS are buying up land and old schools right and left and taking over many plighted areas..yes they have an agenda for America don't they..get rid of all the other religions by taking over the usa school system through voucher programs

Indiana just handed the voucher program to them. people thought it would make competitve education. GUESS WHAT 90% OF THE VOUCHERS WENT TO CATHOLIC SCHOOL SYSTEMS..

THE FOUNDING FATHERS WROTE MUCH OF THE SEPERATION OF CHURCH AND STATE INTO THE CONSTITUTION TO PREVENT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH FROM TAKING OVER THE GOVERNMENT EVANGELICALS BETTER SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THERE OWN BACK YARD BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE

The catholic Church has a history of violent wars and power and money grabs.

The church holds more wealth than most are aware of..

Pretty easy when you are tax exempt in The USA to hide that fact

PAY YOUR SIN AWAY AND THATS WHAT the catholic church encourages members to do...I guess the church learned its lesson from King Henry

let the men divorce like Newt Gingrich and then you can take over the government..Yes Santorum is get votes from catholics because when they go into confession on Saturday they are being guilted into voting there conscience.

A VOTE FOR SANTORIUM AND NEWT IS A VOTE FOR THE POPE

Casual - the Unitarian Universalists do their part to help the poor and hopeless and even though they're not explicitly an atheist/agnostic organization, my own experience shows me that they're composed primarily of agnostics.

When you make comments like "name one XYZ organization that is helping the poor", you carelessly insult the XYZ people that are out there that you are blissfully ignorant of.

The Unitarian church doesn't even come close to the amount of charity and good works the Catholic Church does and has done. They are pipsqueaks in comparison.

Oh yeah, casual, never mind the difference in attendance of such organizations.

Your argument is "our hearts are bigger and more righteous than yours because our church is bigger."

Do you see that your intentions are not GOOD when you demean the good works of others simply because you want YOUR good works to get more positive attention?

You asked for someone to name one organization and I named one organization. Of course your predictable response indicates that you were only looking for LARGE organizations!

Seeing how the Catholic Church has spent thousands of years snuffing out agnostic/atheist organizations in their infancy, you are right, there aren't any large atheist organizations... yet.

gwarth, don't lump gay and pedophilia together as if they're related....that's really dishonest of you and you know that nobody lies in the RC church. BTW, the gay men adopted a child because some heterosexuals sinned like S and G, so gay people are helping clean up the mess. If I'm going to burn in hell, I'll keep the seat warm for you too.

why is it you allegedly devout religious types don't let G-d handle things instead of acting in his stead? He did remind you Christian folks about what your place in the order of things vis a vis your moral superiority as it pertains to others many times in the bible you treat like a chinese menu. Why don't you start with Matthew 6:5 & Matthew 7:5?

So gwarth, with that most ignorant of statements comparing homosexuality and pedophilia, I must ask... Do you shave your beard? Do you stone adulterers? Do you burn down tattoo parlors? Do you eat shell fish? Funny how the religious right loves to pull out one stupid verse of bigotry and then ignore the rest. Now I'm not judging your for being a good cafeteria christian, but please, if you want to follow those ancient hateful archaic laws, feel free, but please do in a country more like Iran. If you knew your bible, you'd realize those ancient laws are no different than the muslim sharia law the right wing fear mongers over.

Ya Gwarth and now tell us how you defend war and torture..although the Bible says "Thou shalt not kill"

Stop bashing the USA. Maybe the church should pay more attention to haiti

South America..Brazil you are going to tell me that brazil is more moral than America. maybe you should go live in Some of the other countries

Heck just go over to the border...I am really sick and tired of the catholic right wingers dissing America...

Yes having a president makes us bad people lets make the Pope the president

SAICS: Great references. I just looked them up and re-read them...including the verses between the ones you cited. There's a lot of good guidance there, and I recommend them as well.

Joachim...I saw that too..what a joke that was. They protect pedophiles and want to give testimony on contraception? They're not even supposed to have sex and they want to talk about contraception? Are you kidding me?

Yes, there have been major issues with the church just like politicians, ceo's, teachers, etc. This is a fallen world and all are sinners. You are no better than the pope, and he is no better than you. That is why we are in need of a Savior who is perfect, Jesus Christ. HE is the only way to the Father.

Fights, if you believe in this, that is your own opinion. I do not and that is why we in this country should have nobody from one denomination tell us what to do. Even the christians in Europe ran away there because they wanted freedom and people like Santorum, who is no better than the Taliban in his beliefs, trying to erect again a religions connection between state and church. Anybody can belief what he wants but it should stop there and not trying to make everybody a convert.

Yea, whatever. I don't want some self-proclaimed morally superior atheist or whoever telling me what to do either. Shove it.

so basically if you are any other religion than catholic you are an atheist...yes thats exactly what all other folks need to see and help them understand the men in robes have an agenda and they are the reason america is falling apart...

if you are not a catholic you are an atheist

seperation of church and state other legal citizens have different beliefs than the catholic agenda to replace our democracy with a pope style government where there are secret meetings and only a select few choose who it will be

this article is a direct example of what the pope thinks of democracy...they don't practice it

It simply amazes me how filled with hate liberals are. They want to point to the intolerance of religion, yet somehow can't look in the mirror and see their intolerancce. Why is it that Christians (of all faiths) are forced to have the liberals beliefs forced down our throats, yet when one of them runs across a sign that offends them, IT must be removed immediately. The school girl in Rhode Island is a perfect example, in their gym (or maybe cafeteria) was a prayer painted on the wall (it could have been a banner) that has been there for years (it was there when her mother attended the same school) but she complained about it and is going to court to force its removal. Christians on the other hand are forced to read untold numbers of signs from planned parenthood while driving down our nations highways endorsing abortion. Yet somehow, the Christians just motor on down the road, accepting the fact that all people have a voice, very unlike the school girl in Rhode Island who wants to silence everyone she disagrees with. We see this day after day in the United States. Christians aren't trying to silence anyone, yet atheiasts and liberals want to silence everyone who disagrees with them.

Janet, its because these people don't believe in God or they want to believe in a god of their own making. One who fits with their own value system, which could be lacking As Christians, we know we are sinners and we have humbled ourselves to the Creator. Liberals want to continue to live how THEY want to live without answering to anyone (God that is). Christianity convicts their hearts and they don't like it, so in turn, they become intolerant of it.

Then the government needs to stay out of the church as well!

Nobody is ruling into the church. It is the church that continuously is trying to rule outside of their boundary, telling women not to use contraception when it is proven that it has prevented women from diseases, women are much healthier and to control pregnancy leads to a healthier society. The Church does not care about this because if they had any conscience, they would revise their antiquated views in light of millions of HIV victims in Africa, that do not use contraception and for the matter condoms because the church says so and is responsible for killing people their. It makes one sick to Santorum say Contraception leads to unnatural sex. What kind of a sick mind is this man?

Uhhhm, Obama, contraception, mandante on the church. Remember?

Uhhhm, church, running a business, a business is not the church even if affiliated and is subject to all laws and regulations as any other business. Remember?

What women other than those of the Catholic religion did the catholic church tell they can't use contraception? All the church said is they are NOT going to pay for it. If a woman can't afford birth control, perhaps she should cut back somewhere else. Maybe quit buying cigarettes and booze perhaps?

Funny how women could afford contraception until Obama decided he was going to force taxpayers to pay for everybody's contraception, now all of a sudden, nobody can afford it or can't get it.

Nora, dear, read the constitution.

Yes and also read the founding fathers documents about the catholic church.

They made seperation of church and state because of what the popes had done to europe. The founding fathers and the protestants who came to the new world new to well what happens when the catholic pope gets involved in government.

So basically we have a German Pope who was in the nazi Youth ruling over italy and telling American politicians how to run the country..

I think many of us understand what the seperation of church and state is and WHY the founding fathers wanted it.

CAN YOU SAY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

CAN YOU SAY THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND

Hell is also an invention of the church and what disappointment if they arrive at the end of their life and find out they should have lived this life in a better way because thats the only thing there is and it should be cherished.

New york is a wonderful city Jesus your post sounds hateful and judgemental? Don't throw stones Jesusiswatching.

Unlike Lott, who offered up his daughters for rape to a crowd of men. Oddly enough, those biblically immoral men didn't rape the daughters and never broke into Lott's home to get at his guests. Unlike the god that killed a bunch of children in Sodom and Gomorrah to punish those he didn't like. Pretty poor aim for an omnipotent being. Unlike Lott's daughters, who got their father drunk and raped him to get pregnant.

Jesus- Why are you taking this passage out of context? You are doing the same thing that No believers do- If you want to quote scripture you should not manipulate it to fit your purpose. You are quoting Rev 18:3 But you have to back up to Rev 17 when the conversation starts. Rev17 is talking about the great harlot- the whore of Babylon. Rev 17:9 tell you who they are talking about.And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.What city sits on 7 hills and fits the description in Rev 17 &18- Three guesses. I am a Christian and believer but if you believe in the Bible- it is pretty evident who is being spoken about in these passages. please don't embellish Gods word. It does not need any changes.

New York City and Babylon........"Sister Cities".

Some have compared the Church with it and I think thats a pretty good description of a Church governed by criminal Cardinals that protect pedophile priests among the many other crimes they have been involved with over time. What about celibacy? Is is no longer valid in the Church's teaching, when they openly amid that the priests are pedophiles, nuns and monks have sex? Why holding up all these charades?

You seem a bit preoccupied with fornication there, Jesus..lol.

Don't leave out the vatican its place is there next to them! This Godless world is fulfilling every word of Revelations. Every word! God will be the judge. Jesus is coming soon to gather up his children. Everyone falls short of the Glory of God. I realize that its time to put this little box we peck out words on away. In the end it is just another device of sin. Its a distraction from God, as are most entertainment devices. Satan goes to and fro throughout the world seeking whom he may devour. Never has the world known the sin it knows today. God will be the judge in the end and those who fail him will be cast into the lake of fire forever. Come soon Lord!

To Fujikoma: You are incorrect. You need to go read that again. The angels had to force the door shut to keep them out or they would have forced their way in. Why would anyone put a holy presence before a human one? The homosexuals wanted the angels. They did not want the women. They wanted to force their intentions on the angels who were men in appearance. God had his loving hand around them & all that love him. God does not protect those who rebel against him. It says that you will be given over to be deceived. The world is in such a state as to be deceived. They want to be deceived and they are. Why would God protect those who do not want his will? It says you can not serve both God and mammon. You will serve God or you will serve mammon. You will not be able to serve both. Read it. Find it and read it. I could give it to you, the verse, but if you are serious about knowing you will seek it out. Otherwise you really don't want to know it. God bless you and guide you if you want to really know.

Blue dogg...

No windows or back entrance? Just blind some guys at the front door... some mob. Usually a mob is more persistent. And yes, they were 'pressing' but if they angels were really from god, why not just wait until they'd actually committed a crime of breaking and entering and then punish them. They're angels, so no innocents would have gotten hurt if the big man upstairs really wanted to prove a point. Seriously, it couldn't have been that bad if his daughters had been there that long and were still virginal (Lott did say they hadn't been with a man). Those angels also stood by as the daughters were offered up for rape, and yet didn't protest once at this. Then, after the door blinding, they basically tell the household to leave because the WHOLE city is going to be destroyed. Not the really really bad people, but EVERYONE. Not only this, but instead of god miracling a new wife, he let the daughters intoxicate this guy to the point he passed out and didn't realize his own daughters were raping him (seems a bit odd from a physiological standpoint that a incapacitated man could impregnate). It's more likely that he got drunk and had his way. I would have been more impressed if the angels had left Lott outside the door and apologized to the daughters for having such a creep for a father. Maybe even left all the children unharmed and commanded Lott to take them as his own to watch over.

Well, then, that is the problem with religion, isn't it? When a DISCERNING individual (i.e., one CAPABLE of discernment) reads the Holy Bible, what it teaches us is to love one another, and treat each other as we would be treated, not to judge our fellow man for what he does and does not do, and condemn him to hell through the power not really vested in us. If we could all live THAT way, the world would be a better place. Unfortunately, religion (unlike the idea of God Himself) was CREATED by MAN for the sole purpose of telling other men what to do and how to live.....which precludes (usurps?) my earlier thought, and is in strict contradiction with the teachings of HIM whom we all supposedly worship. This is why some of us love Christ, but think "Christianity" is a load of cr*p, if that makes any sense.

there is no such thing as spiritually ill people and thats the problem. religion diagnosis problem that dont exist with diseases that dont exist and then tell people they will burn in hell forever if they dont listen. thats not moral. being good hoping for a reward later. or at least to avoid punishment. thats just being a suck up. a brown noser. plus god is not moral. he sexist homophobic a deviant human hating self indulgent choatic character from a bronze age tribe. even if that god existed why would he merit reverance. because we should fear him. thats not love thats a dictatorship. religion is fake.

You are sad pittsburg. You twist the obvious to your own distortion because it allows you to feel good in the here and now. This seems to be as you would say the trend now. God is not a trend. The world distorts all God is. He is I am. He is so much higher than the highest human. Revelations is being fulfilled. People are given over to be deceived because they have no interest in God. That in no way changes the fact that God is real. I find that people who have knowledge of God but do not want to obey his word are given to be deceived. He will not force you to obey. You are free to make the choice for yourself. Faith is a very hard task but it is essential to love God. Belief in his son Jesus Christ is a wonderful gift to man. He died for all of us. The problem with people is they think they will have no trials when Jesus saves them. You will be tried like the iron in the fire. Nothing free ever comes to anything. We live our lives in praise of our own accomplishments. Our accomplishments mean nothing without Gods presence in them. One other thing I am not perfect according to you or I. I would never presume that I am. I have faith that I will be corrected by my Heavenly Father. Faith that he will make me into what he wants, not what I want. Faith in Jesus Christ who died for all is the only way to God. If you rebel against God as todays world relishes in .... people have made their choice. You are given to be deceived as you rebel against God. The choice is yours to make. No one will force their beliefs on you or anyone else. No one can. I long for Jesus to return and gather up His children. What a glorious day that will be! What a wonderful day when all will be put right. You can take all that I have but you can't take that away.

Blue, there is not one shred of evidence that a god, any god actually exists. If there were it would be on the front pages of every newspaper, on every television in the world. Faith and belief do NOT mean something is actually true. Even the shroud of turin has been carbon dated to the middle ages so it is a fake.

Nora, people that think as Blue does, do not need proof to believe their delusions are in fact the truth.

One would think that if there were only one powerful and almighty god, we wouldn't have so many diffent sects of christianity, not so many nutty ones.

The Catholic religion is the oldest form of organized Christianity. It's lasted for thousands of years- must be doing something right. The "protestants" only came later- with their magic Mormon plates and angels of destruction, the Jehova witness door to door converting crews, etc.. Don't lump Catholics in with the "nutty" religions.

Than who should I lump the catholics into - the pedaphiles and their supporters. In regards to their doing something right, well after 2 thousand years of brain washing and indoctirnation, we've yet to acheive world peace, love one another, and end all the killing, so I have to digress and disagree that NO you have not done anything right.

Casual: Be careful lest you be deceived as well. I will not argue your statement that the Catholic church "must be doing something right"...yet I will not accept that they're doing everything right, either. The Catholic church rewrote the original Ten Commandments, deleting #4: Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy. The pope changed their day of worship from the true Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday to appease the sun worshippers. They also believe that the pope is God's earthly being (or words to that effect).

The scandals that have rocked the Cathlolic church over the last decade or so are proof enough for me that catholicism is NOT the true religion of God.

I guess the preists mistook the words "jesus loves the little children" a little to far.

Before crap? Before christ if there was one. Tell me Tether, how come only one book writes about this so called messiah, and how come these books were written so long after he had supposedly existed? How come the miracles of this messiah were written in so much later than the original writings?

Because you Christians shoved your calendars down the throats of Western Society in which you are a majority and, for many centuries, you allowed the Pope to rule all countries?

I have seen miracles in my life time. One of my favorites is this.

A man who some time ago was diagnosed with cancer and given a very short time to live.

He went to church, believed, and was saved, there were prayers for healing.

The Dr. who performed his surgery the following week was very confused. He said it is impossible. I have the MRI's from just last week. The cancer had shrank dramatically, and all the tentacles where it had been spreading were gone. They were there the week before. The man is still alive today and the Dr. is now a born again christian, he said if God can do that I need to know him.

SAICS,

The Catholic church originally was not allowed in the US.

The Catholic church was part of the reason the pilgrims left and came to America.

They wanted to practice Christianity. There is a difference.

The Pope does not and never will rule me. The Pope is only a man he is not God.

Oh teather how do you explain similar "miracles" in ancient times by those that prayed to Zeus?

Tether, I know all about those miracles, err medical science miracles. I was given 30 days to live 12 years ago. Thankfully to that medical science, I am here today.

Tether
Get with the program. BC hasn't been used in years. It has been changed to BCE (before Common Era)

@Tether then you best not vote for Santorum as he has already done the church's bidding when he was a senator and he did so at the expense of US veterans.

All of the current GOP candidates have made it clear they plan to enshrine their vision of] Christianity into legislation and government. It doesn't matter whether it's a pope or some other man deciding what is biblically correct, the plan is to impose it on everyone even if they're not Christian. If you value the history of this country allowing religious freedom, you won't vote for them

Totally irrelevant. The Buddhist have 2555, much older then Christianity and a much more peaceful religion. And it does not promise people a live after death, it aims for enlightenment in this world. If all these crazy right wingers in this country would learn something from it.

Joachim -don't cram buddhism down my throat. You are not morally enlightened- you just feel superior bashing Christianity. Shove it.

SAICS, I laughed a little with the whole calendar comment. Are you really upset about the Gregorian calendar? Here, I'll make you feel a little bit better-- The Gregorian calendar is largely derivative of the Julian calendar (as in Julius Caesar, you know, the emperor of the Roman Empire, a decidedly non-Catholic organization at the time). The only change was 3 days every 4 centuries due to the orbit of the earth around the sun being 11 mins shorter than originally thought. The Gregorian calendar was not introduced until 1582.

I've heard alot of issues that people say upset them in regards to the Catholic Church, but the calendar thing is really amusing.

I hope you sleep better tonight. (Oh brother!)

@CasualUSTaxpayer - it is our right as atheists and buddhists to return the gift of persecution back to you christians. It is our moral obligation....

Ohhhh... Casual is a veritable font of love, understanding, and tolerance of other religions, a true testament to his religion!

@zupercram I don't really care about the calendar thing, it just irks me when people think the BC/AD bit is some sort of proof supporting the Christian religion as being true or something. That and it's a pain in the arse to keep track of the friggen calendar and all our holidays since it's so different than the gregorian one

"we do not want their christian sharia law..." that's as far as I got.

1. Christianity does not equal sharia.

2. Who is "we" in the "we do not want"?????

3. I do not care what you want, in the least. This is America- Christianity is allowed.

4. I fear fascism -but I fear godless communism much more.

Ah yes, the mentality that all atheists are communist. How ignorant of you.

The world should disgust you. Everyone is a sinner no matter who they are. We're all hypocrites, we're all sinners, we're all fallen, we're all as "filthy rags" and only one can save us, Jesus Christ. Thank you Lord.

Amen!

and you bums are prime examples...get off your high horse. God can judge me, not you. The religion is correct, the church isn't. And, because I'm sure you're incapable of thinking for yourself....there IS a difference between religion and church. Religion is what God created...church is what we created.

Morons

You are the moron Tim believing in fantasy..Do you believe in Zeus?

People are free to judge themselves all they want. Sorry buddy, WE are NOT living in sin, YOU ARE living in sin. If you feel your life is that worthless without some make believe deity, feel free, but please don't try to bring the rest of us down with you, that is NOT your right. My god has a hammer, your god got nailed to a cross. Enough said.

"god is not Great: How Religion poison everything" -Christopher Hitchens

Hey C...I see the game we're playing!! I love this one, it allows people with no real argument but tons of irrational pent up rage to let off some steam!

It's called "no you are, followed by a random question." So I guess it's my turn:

You're the moron, do you believe in unicorns?

PS read the bottom of my response....see the part about me being Roman Catholic? I don't know if you know this but that means I don't believe in Zeus...sorry :)

MJ, and that's his opinion.

Sorry, Peep, you ARE a sinner. Have you ever told a little white lie, gossiped, lusted, cheated, thought a bad thought. I'll answer for you, YES! So, dear, you ARE a sinner. And you need a Savior whether you believe it or not.