Look at Syria , their own government shoots it's people by the hundreds ....

Elsewhere, people are killed intentionally, en mass at centers of worship by high powered explosives!

Thinkforyourself:

Kathy Giffords expressed her appreciation for the prayers said in her behalf...you know that...don't you?

Sam Adams: LOL!

OOOPPPSSS:

Gabriel Giffords

Carlo Caraluzzo, I pray to my God that you don't own a gun.

Require twice annual physcological and IQ testing for handgun ownership. In return drop the cool-down period after the first sale.

(Zambrana reportedly took out the magazine of the Reuger 9mm weapon but did not know there was a bullet in the chamber.)

This guy was a idiot, and shouldn't of even own a weapon, If you know how to use a weapon you remove the magazine but you always check to see if there a bullet in the same and when you hand the weapon over to someone it should be open .

Shoot, everyone knows you don't bring a gun to church with a round in the chamber. Jesus said that in there somewhere....

Accidents happen

This wasn't an accident; this was stupidity. Any idiot who completed a firearm safety course would know that you always clear the chamber after removing the clip.

Do you really want to compare cars to guns? OK, LogicRequired, lets use some logic.

What is the purpose of a car? It's a means of transport from one place to another.

What is the purpose of a handgun? Its only use is to kill people.

Try using some logic...America would be a lot better country to live in if people used logic.

Mr. Logic: The purpose of a car is to transport people from one place to another. The purpose of a concealed handgun is to injure or kill someone. Your comparison of the two is irrational and an inversion of your name.

In actuality, one could argue that the shooting of this woman was not an "accident"...the gun did EXACTLY what it was designed and built to do...fire a deadly projectile. The machine worked perfectly...and that's why it should never have been allowed in an occupied space.

@LogicRequired, your "logic" needs to be reviewed. The difference between firearms and automobiles is that automobiles were not intended to be used as weapons, and no driver goes around thinking "If I see a dangerous driver I'm going to protect myself by ramming them."

1. If I was to enumerate the many uses for handguns other than killing people, I'd blow the already fragile vine software.
2. It scares me so many don't understand the type of government we have promotes the individual at the expense if you would of the state. This gives us more freedom and at the same time puts each of us more at risk.
3. In many venues, there would have been charges. I am surprised there were none here.
4. Making this a bigger issue than what it is might be viewed by some as just another nagging, harping attempt to negate [2] above and make us more of a nanny state.

My handgun doubles as a coffee maker. That's just one of its many uses that doesn't kill people.

It also works well as a remote drill, which is great if you need to put a hole in something at a distance.

I use my handgun to bake bread and to dust. It's handy for putting in ventilation holes in the wall too.

To all my fans,

We have a constitutional right to keep and bear arms. Yes idiots and accidents do and will happen, but you don't remove people's rights and freedoms because of it. You all need to look at the bigger picture, an unarmed civilian society is not necessarly a safe society.

• New Jersey adopted what sponsors described as "the most stringent gun law" in the nation in 1966; two years later the murder rate was up 46% and the reported robbery rate had nearly doubled.
• In 1968, Hawaii imposed a series of increasingly harsh measures and its murder rate tripled from a low of 2.4 per 100,000 in 1968 to 7.2 by 1977.
• In 1976, Washington, D.C. enacted one of the most restrictive gun control laws in the nation. Since then, the city's murder rate has risen 134% while the national murder rate has dropped 2%.
• Among the 15 states with the highest homicide rates, 10 have restrictive or very restrictive gun laws.^[
• Violent crime accelerated in Jamaica after handguns were heavily restricted and a special Gun Court established

This is just evidence in the United States, you can look at Australia's gun control laws and the increased crime rates after. Also ask the people of Germany who were disarmed in the 1920's how that effected them when the Nazi's took power in the 30's. Or ask people in Russia how great things were after Stalin banned guns.

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. By 1987 that figure had risen to 61,911,000.

kaybeetoys - What would Jesus say about weapons in a place of worship? The Levites were also the Temple guard, and were armed. I don't recall any place in Scripture where Jesus was recorded condemning them...

Also, hand guns were not designed to "kill people". They still are not marketed that way. They are for DEFENSE - they are the great equalizer in times when it helps to have the opportunity to level the playing field.

An automobile is not marketed as a weapon. But Google justified police shootings when perps use cars as weapons (in trying to run down a cop). The courts rule the police are OK to shoot and kill perps who, with an automobile, pose a threat to an officer. Not that they have been run over, but if the perp even throws it in reverse to try to escape, and an officer is in position in the proximity of the rear of the vehicle, the cop can shoot.

You can find hundreds, even thousands of on-line stories where people have used vehicles as weapons. No, they are not guns, but any physical item could be used as a weapon. Some are just more effective at killing - depending who is behind the wheel, or who is throwing the rocks, or who is pulling the trigger.

By the way - you don't have to be Christian to appreciate guns. It is an impossible stereotype to put Bible-thumping and gun-toting in the same breath without turning your back on what the libs stand for - equality, fairness, all-encompassing, and free! And MANY atheists like guns too!

I have owned at least one gun for the last 20 years (only in my 30's) and my guns have never shot anyone. I own guns for hunting and sport mainly, self defense is just a perk.

Nice spin, concernedone. Unfortunately it doesn't change reality to twist logic into a pretzel.

The question is simple: Are handguns a problem in our culture?

I certainly believe so.

If you are not concerned about the proliferation of deadly weapons in the hands of the ignorant, careless and violent, I can only hope for you that you don't change your mind about this issue the hard way.

Nothing will change until people like you finally get fed up with gun violence.

kaybeetoys - And your negative attitude is SURE to win me to your side!

Please try to see all sides of this conversation. My "spin" is what has kept guns legal in the country since our founding fathers gave us this right.

I might change my mind some day, but until 2/3rds of all states vote and ratify an amendment making gun ownership illegal, I am solidly within the majority, and quite comfortably so...

Thinkforyourself, I know you wrote your comment to be offensive to anybody who either one, owns a firearm, or two, believes in God, or three, both.

So, one, the guy should be charged with manslaughter. Any RESPONSIBLE individual out there that would like to own a gun, has the right. Those that do not follow the rules, and do not follow basic safety rules should be held responsible for the accidents they cause.

Your logic states that we should control motor vehicles rather than guns because there are way more people injured by people being careless with cars than guns. Not just numbers, obviously, but ratios as well.

Two, your statement that prayer has been scientifically proven to be false is ridiculous. Faith proceeds the miracle. You think if you tempt God to give you a sign before you will belive in Him, He is going to do that? It doesn't work that way. You don't fix faith, faith fixes you. If you want first hand account of this...

My youngest son was born from an emergency C-Section about 4 weeks early. When he was born, he had bleeding in the lungs, and the doctors could not figure out how to stop it. We were told that we should not expect him to live. As he sat there in his tiny incubatation hood, with the blood being pumped out of his lungs, we prayed to Heavenly Father, asking him to bless our baby to live, if it was His will.

Within 5 minutes, the bleeding stopped. The existing blood in his lungs was pumped out, and after the next week in the NICU, he was released completely healthy. The doctors could not tell us why the bleeding stopped. They expected him to not live. He is a perfectly healthy 14 year old now, and I give credit to God and faith for this miracle.

I'm sure you will find a way to explain this away. I'm sure you will revile against those who continue to believe in God or prayer or faith. You are simply wrong.

@bhaskie

Your logic states that we should control motor vehicles rather than guns because there are way more people injured by people being careless with cars than guns. Not just numbers, obviously, but ratios as well.

well, let's think about that. what is the purpose of cars? what is the purpose of guns?

close your eyes and imagine a world without cars. now close your eyes and imagine a world without guns. i think it's pretty clear which world you would rather live in.

bhaskie - Thank you for your testimony!

Secondly, I met a man who owned / operated a bait & tackle store in Michigan a few years ago. I think it was Cadillac MI. It was a well known place that was always stuffed with customers in the fall salmon run. I don't have any other info, but maybe some reader might recognize this much info... He told me he had stage 4 pancreatic cancer. He was sent home and told he had 4 weeks to live. He had NEVER bought into the "Christianity garbage" (using his words). He figured he had nothing to loose, so on his death bed, he accepted Christ into his life and prayed the sinners prayer. A month came and went. The guy said he never felt better in his life after that month. He was taken back in for tests, where it was discovered he had NO TRACE of the cancer. It was 100% gone. The doctors could only say a MIRACLE happened in this guy's life. There was no other explanation.

Now, the man shouts his story out loud to random strangers who enter the store. He is a witness and living testamony to the power of God, and what God can do.

concernedone, I am not in favor of doing away with the Second Amendment. I don't want to make gun ownership illegal.

Surely you can recognize that we have a problem in this country with handguns? Surely there is a possible compromise? A better way?

I think it is incumbent on people like you who support handgun ownership to come up with the solution.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

I'm sorry you think my concern for the thousands of Americans who are shot, killed, or kill themselves either accidentally or on purpose with handguns is a negative attitude.

My focus is more on responsibility and less on rights. Our rights are getting us killed.

Here in VA there is a deadlocked State Congress w/ the GOP Lt Gov breaking ties. His first vote as tiebreaker was to strike down a law limiting gun buyers to a mere 12 guns per year (one per month) . Evidently the GOP think 1 gun per month is not enough.. As a Christian, I am APPALLED at the REPUBLICANS!!! JESUS would not own a gun!!!! Stop lying on Christ by saying anything otherwise. My wife is a prof. at Virginia Tech. The gun show loophole got the idiot that did all the shooting a gun legally here, and Al Queada is telling its members to come to VA to get their guns. Enough is enough!!!! I will hold my nose to the gay rights stuff and am voting DEM becuase of this, like a lot of other Christians who are sick of the GOP being BOUGHT AND SOLD BY the NRA!!!!!

AL-1735815, that "well regulated militia" of the 1700's was not the Regular Army we all are so familiar with today -- it was CIVILIANS who were REQUIRED to show up with their own guns to go to war. "Militia" is not, nor has it ever been, the same as "Military". Stop trying to change the definition of words that people such as Washington and Jefferson used when they were alive.

As for restricting/eliminating rights of members of any religion, those who wish to restrict/eliminate the rights of Christians will stop when the Christians cease trying to restrict/eliminate the rights of non-Christians.

In other words, if you don't want to marry someone of your own gender, you don't have to. DO NOT tell others that they are not allowed to, unless you want someone to tell YOU that YOU are not allowed to preach on a street corner (which your Bible says you are not supposed to do, anyway; it's in Matthew, Chapters 5 through 7).

Why in the hell would this dumba$$ take the gun out in the first place in church? This is just like the idiot who went to the gunshow, purchased a gun and when loading it outside shot himself in the leg. When will people learn to make sure the safety is on?

Zaruski, hands are designed for many things. (Just ask the Count on Sesame Street... "So many things our hands can do!") Yet every day, innocents are beaten, strangled, bruised by having somebody abuse them. Hands are used to drink alcohol and then drive cars, meant to get from the bar to home, and then kill somebody in a DUI.

Guns are meant to do many things. Sport, hunting, self-defense, collecting, law enforcement, not just to kill people. Yet, hands also pull the triggers, whether purposefully or not, and can hurt people.

So the argument about the purpose of cars being different from guns is moot. Both require responsible ownership and use to be safe. It is the hands behind the abuse that are the problem. Drunk Drivinig causes more accidents than guns. And don't tell me the purpose of DUI is not to hurt anybody, because it does.

By the way, this must be one of the extremely few (must be less than ten altogether) churches that allow handguns of any kind on the premises. That's right, it's a LAW in every state of the U.S.A., which means this guy IGNORED the Law and willfully became a criminal.

What's that phrase I keep hearing/reading, from the Right-wing Conservative Tea-Party "Christians", about criminals and guns?

Maybe we should make guns illegal like we did Cocaine, Heroine, ecstasy, and prostitution. I mean now that those things are illegal they're impossible to get. (Sarcasm noted)

Or maybe we just make handguns illegal, that way we can have an increase in shotgun deaths.

Or maybe we can choose to live in a grown up world where you are trusted and free to be responsible and capable until proven otherwise.

My youngest son was born from an emergency C-Section about 4 weeks early. When he was born, he had bleeding in the lungs, and the doctors could not figure out how to stop it. We were told that we should not expect him to live. As he sat there in his tiny incubatation hood, with the blood being pumped out of his lungs, we prayed to Heavenly Father, asking him to bless our baby to live, if it was His will.

Within 5 minutes, the bleeding stopped. The existing blood in his lungs was pumped out, and after the next week in the NICU, he was released completely healthy. The doctors could not tell us why the bleeding stopped. They expected him to not live. He is a perfectly healthy 14 year old now, and I give credit to God and faith for this miracle.

I'm sure you will find a way to explain this away. I'm sure you will revile against those who continue to believe in God or prayer or faith. You are simply wrong.

bhaskie, that is a heartwarming story and I am very happy for your family and for the good health of your son.

But if you credit faith with saving your son, if you believe that god personally intervened on his behalf because you prayed...how do you explain all the babies who died, despite the heartfelt prayers of their parents?

Did god not hear their prayers? Did god not care about those babies, just as much as he did about your son? Were those children less worthy somehow? And how do you explain that to those parents?

I assume your answer will be that we cannot know god's will. But if it is god's will that one child die while another lives, his will would be done whether you prayed or not.

Godisreal, you should move to LA, since California has such strict gun laws they have little to no gun violence there. It is like a utopia.

And AL-1735815, the SCOTUS disagrees with you. The 2nd was interpreted to mean the individual person has a right to own and possess firearms in their home.

Guns are designed to do one thing, and ONLY one thing: To send a projectile in whatever direction the gun happens to be pointed. They are not designed for "defense", they are not designed for "hunting", they are not designed for "collecting", they are not designed for "law enforcement", they are definitely not designed for "sport".

It doesn't matter what the intended use of any gun is. Guns are designed ONLY to send a projectile in the direction the gun happens to be pointed.

An accident happends in a church (by an idiot, imo) and liberals use this issue to demean 80% of the country.

LOL

Kaybeetoys, I can't explain it. I only know that my type of experience is not singular. You're right, I can't know God's will. And I don't assume that any child is any more worthy than any other. (I don't believe in infant baptism, btw.) I just KNOW in my heart that in my experience, it was the faith and the blessing of our Heavenly Father that healed our baby.

I can't explain that feeling, but it just is. Others who have experienced that feeling know what I'm talking about.

Believe what you will, but please don't revile against the faith of others. That was my point in sharing my story.

Thinkforyourself slammed into the congregation because they held a prayer for the child who was injured in this avoidable accident. Why? Why would anybody, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Athiest, Agnostic belittle another for something as harmless as saying a prayer on the behalf of this kid?

As much as is preached in these forums that religion is the root of all evil in the world today, it is THAT kind of hate that is the reason for sharing my story. I respect your right to believe in whatever you wish, even if that is to not have any belief in God. Just don't revile against each other for our beliefs.

Mike757 (VA Beach???) - LA's gun laws are so because of the violence, and not the other way around.. And what does that have to do with Jesus anyway? I have a right to be a Christian, and Christ wouldn't buy a gun shoot someone, so neither will I.. The point is, the GOP says they are a "christian" party.. I am telling you that on gun laws, the DEMS are much more Christ-like. And as VA Tech alums, their position has won this Christian's VOTE...

kaybeetoys - I agree with you about the compromise. There is no doing away with guns, that is just a fact. But I do think that if an irresponsible act results in an injury to another person, the irresponsible party should be held accountable. Just as when a person is texting while driving and causes an accident, that irresponsible person should be held accountable. There are many cries from gun owners about their rights, but I am also concerned about the rights of gun shot victims. Yes, real accidents can happen, but this case was definitely not a real accident - it was a case if irresponsible gun ownership. This person was licensed to carry a concealed weapon, but didn't have the common sense to clear the chamber. That makes me question the qualifications necessary to get such a permit and concerns me that there are many equally irresponsible licensed gun owners out there carrying guns that might "accidentally" shoot an innocent bystander.

Since I know that guns will never go away and it's every citizen's constitutional right, I believe that every injury or death should be the direct resposiblity of the guns owner, whether taken by a child, or accidentally fired (which is usually due to lack of safety precautions). If a gun you own hurts or kills someone, you should be charged with murder or attempted murder for reckless endangerment. That way many of these "accidents" wouldn't be so carelessly dismissed by the puclic or the courts. If you're going to own a gun, you better damn well be responsible for the possible danger to others or be held accountable in these situations.

kaybeetoys - Thank you for the change in your attitude for the first 64% of post 1.40. I will respond favorably to this by echoing the remarks made in post 1.41 by Godisreal. There is a point of nonsense in this gun battle - to own or not to own. If the facts are as represented by Godisreal, a sensible person would say a 12 gun-per-year limitation would not be unreasonable. I might go along with this, if not for the fact that you are only limiting the law-abiding citizens with this law. Criminals do not follow the law, thus it would be unreasonable to assume they would suddenly have a change of heart with the passage of a law like this.

So, what do we do...? I have no idea. Yes, guns in the hands of criminals is a huge problem. Guns in the hands of responsible gun owners are NOT the problem. Let's keep the focus on where it should be...

Every gun owner in this country should have to pass a gun safety course. No doubt about it (in my opinion). Maybe if this guy had been tested in safety, like clearing the chamber while handling a handgun, his mind MIGHT have been different - in that it might have been imprinted in his mind to do the right thing and clear the chamber. The solution isn't a complete reversal of the constitution & banning all firearms. I believe the solution to most "accidents" could be in proactive education, not a ban.

Here come the ignorant again that claim "Militia" but have no idea what the definition of it is. I'll help you out since you won't bother to educate yourself. Oh and I'm not sure if you know this but we are certaintly over regulated by congress.

10 USC § 311 - Militia: composition and classes

(a)The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b)The classes of the militia are—
(1)the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2)the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

I own a gun for protection and I take ownership of that gun seriously. I am a Liberal, and I believe in the Constitutional right to bear arms. However, stupid people should not own guns, and this person has proven that he is not a responsible gun own and, most importantly, too stupid to own a gun. Strip this fool of his right to own a weapon. Where's he gonna take it next --- DayCare?

Now, we have an innocent girl fighting for her life because this idiot chose to act irresponsibly.

Gun control laws for everyone???

I am not changing the words or the meaning of the 2nd Amendment 0nly the gun lobbyists are changing the meaning of it (just to sell more guns) - as it states that:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

You can not just take the second half of the sentence and state that is the full amendment.

And post #1.42 is saying that part of the 2nd ammendment doesn't apply to the modren times????? So now you can pick and choose which parts apply and which parts don't, and was this ability to "pick and choose" passed by 2/3rds of Congress and by the States?????

As to what was posted in #1.37 about the founding fathers, if it's not in the Constitition - it does not matter as it is their opinion and I don't care what their "spin" was - only in what they passed.

And if your going to use quotes - provide the links,

But to save you the time http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndmea.html where they break each word down and explain what it "really was met to say" in other words to put their "spin" on it.

When the National Guard was formed by the Militia Act of 1903, it did not replace the "militia cause" of the Second Amendment as a Title or Statue does not do that.

The 2nd Amendment does need to be "modernized" as the Constitution is a "living document" (there are some "idiots" that should never be allowed near a gun - as the story is about:

And I am not against "responsible people" owning guns - and there is no such excuse as "it was an accident" the person that was handling the gun when it went off should be charged - he knew he was breaking the law when he went into a closet to show off "his toy". A concealed permit means just that - weapon is concealed - unless you a prepared to use it in self defense.

guess they should all be grateful that the other's "packing heat" in the church didn't stand up and start firing away. What a wonderful place to buy and sell guns, in a Christan Church! Make ya wonder "What Jesus would do" doesn't it?

Ted, that is the current LEGAL definition of "Militia". The definition the "Founding Fathers" knew was all able-bodied males age 16-60, period. There was no "National Guard" back then. By the way, today's National Guard "just happens" to be a branch of the U.S. Military -- part of the STANDING ARMY -- even in times of Peace (the only real difference is the National Guard is "part-time").

George Washington's militia were NOT part of the Military except in times of War -- and even then each militia unit had the right to decide when it would leave the field of battle.

AL-1735815, you are putting words into people's mouths again. Now go back and READ what has been written -- not just what you want to see.

As for those quotes you seem to be so set on disagreeing with, they are all easily researched. Maybe you should look them up for yourself.

Thinkforyourself, I know you wrote your comment to be offensive to anybody who either one, owns a firearm, or two, believes in God, or three, both.

So, one, the guy should be charged with manslaughter. Any RESPONSIBLE individual out there that would like to own a gun, has the right. Those that do not follow the rules, and do not follow basic safety rules should be held responsible for the accidents they cause.

Your logic states that we should control motor vehicles rather than guns because there are way more people injured by people being careless with cars than guns. Not just numbers, obviously, but ratios as well.

Two, your statement that prayer has been scientifically proven to be false is ridiculous. Faith proceeds the miracle. You think if you tempt God to give you a sign before you will belive in Him, He is going to do that? It doesn't work that way. You don't fix faith, faith fixes you. If you want first hand account of this...

My youngest son was born from an emergency C-Section about 4 weeks early. When he was born, he had bleeding in the lungs, and the doctors could not figure out how to stop it. We were told that we should not expect him to live. As he sat there in his tiny incubatation hood, with the blood being pumped out of his lungs, we prayed to Heavenly Father, asking him to bless our baby to live, if it was His will.

Within 5 minutes, the bleeding stopped. The existing blood in his lungs was pumped out, and after the next week in the NICU, he was released completely healthy. The doctors could not tell us why the bleeding stopped. They expected him to not live. He is a perfectly healthy 14 year old now, and I give credit to God and faith for this miracle.

I'm sure you will find a way to explain this away. I'm sure you will revile against those who continue to believe in God or prayer or faith. You are simply wrong.

You're attributing something to me I never said. I didn't post anything whatsoever about motor vehicles. That must have been someone else, and I agree with you -- trying to correlate gun deaths and vehicle deaths is not logical. A handgun's purpose is to kill other human beings. It has no other function. Cars, however, have many other non-lethal intended functions. When a car is involved in the death of a person, the car has actually deviated from its intended purpose. When a handgun is involved in the death of a person, the handgun has fulfilled its purpose and functioned exactly in the manner in which it was intended to function. So yeah -- that wasn't me.

However, prayer doesn't work. What happened to your son was good, but that doesn't prove prayer did anything. There may be a perfectly logical, medical reason the bleeding stopped. The body's capacity to heal itself is quite remarkable. Just because it cannot be easily explained doesn't mean an invisible deity was involved. I can say this: NO UNAMBIGUOUS PRAYER EVER GETS ANSWERED. None. Literally 0%. If you eliminate ALL possible chances of coincidence and leave only divine intervention as the cause, it will never happen. Try it. Pray for all cancer to be eliminated, worldwide, permanently. No matter how many believers pray for this, no matter how great their "faith," you KNOW it will not happen. You KNOW this.

www.whywontgodhealamputees.com

P.S. I love how my comment #1.9 got over 50 "thumbs-ups," was not offensive, derogatory, or insulting (just because it goes against what you may believe doesn't make it insulting -- it just means I have different beliefs), and still got collapsed.

That should shut up all these people who think only right-leaning comments get collapsed. LOL.

Rational Brent, we ask that the super-rich pay taxes at the same percentage as the rest of the country -- and Conservatives use that issue to demean 90% of the country. We have to pay our bills with only 70%-80% of our TOTAL income, so why can't the super-rich pay their bills with more than 85% of their TOTAL income? No, I'm not laughing at all.

Yeah, I'm a "liberal" -- and I own guns.

bhaskie AND concernedone, if prayer and "faith" were really as powerful as you claim, then why does God choose to not listen to the prayers of those who truly believe? Don't give me that clap-trap about how nobody can know God's thoughts, or how those people must not be "real" Christians. I have known far too many Christians who have prayed for their children to be healed of a terminal illness -- yet their prayers have gone unanswered.

I have also known atheists AND pagans/heathens/"Satanists" who have "miraculously" recovered from terminal illnesses, too. You gonna try to say that it was just "coincidence" that THEY got better while the children of those extremely devout Christians didn't?

I would support the 2nd amendment to be changed to something like this.

The right of every person to defend themselves and propery, the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed upon provided:

1. They do not have a crimminal record or received a less than honorable discharge from the military.

2. They have received certified training on the arms they own (and laws of their area)

Note to the 12 yr old that wrote the article. The brand of the firearm is spelled "Ruger"

And there you go again Quacked One - why don't you actually READ what the 2nd Amendment - the way it was written in the US Consitution - not the way the gun lobbyist want to "spin it". Or "lets disect each word to prove our case"

What the founding fathers discussed doesn't not matter other then in a history class, what does matter, is what the 55 founding fathers agreed on and passed, and what the states ratified.

The discussions the founding fathers had or their opinions of 200 years ago - they did not even conceive of handguns with 10 - 15 shot clips, or rifles that could hit a target beyond 100 yards, let alone a rifle that can hit a target over a mile away. They did not conceive of gang warfare or the types of crimes we have, or how easy our politicians can be "bought off" by lobbyists.

So, AL-1735815, you support the ELIMINATION of a person's rights just because they have made a mistake some time in their past. Bravo. Hope YOU end up with a criminal record. Remember, all it takes in many places to get a criminal record is to be arrested for jaywalking.

Note to dano-3878024: Perhaps you should become the Editor-at-large for msnbc.com -- and work for no pay, since they obviously do not pay anyone to do the editing now.

Let's debate this for a while - the purposes of a gun versus a car. Both are just tools. Just like any other tool, there will be people who are able to misuse a tool by using it for "other than its intended purposes."

concerenedone, actually they are designed to kill people. The term 'for defense' is a symantical argument, it still means they are designed to kill people. That is and always has been their main function.

For an extreme example you cannot screw a toaster and then claim it is a sex toy. You cannot use a gun for any purpose it was not intended and claim it's function is something else. Guns are made for one purpose and one purpose only, to shoot a chunk of flaming metal into whatever it is pointed at usually ending in the death of that object it is was alive; all other 'functions' were added in for survival purposes but do not change the main function of any gun; like the coffee grinders in some old rifles. So when you call them the "great equalizer" you are in fact still saying they are made to kill other living things.

It is like that Republican slogan guy that shows up on Colbert once in a while that says if you word a statement a little differently that people will accept it when they would not before.

As for this guy in the article, take away his license and then lock him up. Guns are usually banned from within a church and this guy has shown he is in capable of practicing gun safety and does not deserve to keep his license. Even if it was just an accident, if this guy had taken the 5 seconds necessary to check the chamber and/or clip it would not have happened. I would not be surprised if they charged him with negligent homicide or something to that effect. Does not matter how many pastors "forgive" him, it does not excuse him from the law.

Thinkiner there is a major difference between cars and guns:

1. Cars are designed to NOT kill people, at least while they are inside of it, some even have advanced sensore systems to detect things on the outside and can self-correct their course to avoid them.

2. Cars are designed to transport people from one point to another and are a necessity in most areas of the country.

3. Guns have one one purpose, as many have stated, which is to kill living things.

4. Guns are not necessary for everyday life except by those paranoid about everyone around them and carry all of the time.

5. This guy was in a church, most churches ban firearms within the premises.

6. This was no simple case of misuse, he endangered everyone there by not following proper safety procedures, you always check the chamber before you load a clip; empty or not.

7. One tool is a privilege and the other is a right. When you are entitled to something you must be held to much higher standards.

So your saying crimminals have the right to own a gun??

Then you would allow someone with a DUI to keep their firearm privilage?

or someone charge with domestic assault?

Hope YOU end up with a criminal record.

And a personal attack??? :0

And I don't think "jaywalking, parking in a no parking zone, speeding, littering - etc" should bar one from owning a firearm. I am talking about a "true crimminal record" Assault, DUI, theft of property, doing any jail time or less than honorable discharge from military" but I would even add caught cheating on your taxes in that one.

The Quacked One, as I mentioned to another post asking a similar question, I don't know.

I know those who are faithful to God who have lost children, have lost husbands and wives, brothers and sisters and parents. Am I any more faithful then they? No. And yet, they are still faithful.

In my high school calculus class, there was a student who had it all. He was the quarterback, smart, good lookin' guy, popular, but he wasn't stuck up on himself. He had a good heart. He never put anybody else down, but in fact did the opposite.

One day we came to class to find out that he had been in a car accident and had been thrown from the car, and was in a coma at the hospital. Several days later, we learned that he died from the injuries.

A few years later, I had a chance to hear more about this story from the father of the student who died. When his son was in an accident, he was in England serving in a volunteer position for their church there. He rushed home to be with his son. He prayed that his son would live. He asked God why, when he had devoted so much of his life to God, would his son have to go through this. He asked that God make his son better. He had such a promising life ahead of him. His son remained in the coma. This went on for several days. Finally, when in his prayers, he basically demanded that his son be made better, he felt such a feeling of love, yet reprimand. "Who are you to know my purposes for your son? Who are you to demand this of me?" He literally heard the voice. He humbly bowed his head, feeling love for his son, having faith in God, and voiced that it be God's will. His son died 3 hours later. He will be the first to tell you that he believes in God. His faith is stronger than it ever was. I wish my faith were as strong as his.

Again, I don't know. I just know that when my son had the bleeding stop in his lungs, it wasn't due to coincidence. Please, believe what you will. I respect your right. Judging that the congregation of this kid shot in this church praying for this child to be okay as tripe is just as judgemental of somebody saying you are going to hell because you don't believe in God. We all need a little more respect for each others' rights to believe as we will.

So to all of those who want to ban gun ownership I would like to ask another question.

Who's going to come and take my guns away from me? You going to come and confiscate my guns? You going to make a law and turn all those millions of people who don't turn in their guns criminals? You going to sent the police and military to arrest and shoot gun owners with no criminal records?

You people are the reason I own guns!!

Believe what you will, but please don't revile against the faith of others. That was my point in sharing my story.

bhaskie, I believe in the Constitution, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the right to bear arms. I base what I believe on logic. You are free to believe whatever you like, but please grant me the right to disagree with your beliefs if there is no logic to them.

Thinkforyourself slammed into the congregation because they held a prayer for the child who was injured in this avoidable accident. Why? Why would anybody, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Athiest, Agnostic belittle another for something as harmless as saying a prayer on the behalf of this kid?

If I may speak for him or her, I don't think any disrespect was intended, only that, as Gandhi said, “A single act of kindness is better than a thousand heads bowed in prayer.” Prayers are great, but so is putting aside guns and letting innocent people live free of violence and fear.

As much as is preached in these forums that religion is the root of all evil in the world today, it is THAT kind of hate that is the reason for sharing my story. I respect your right to believe in whatever you wish, even if that is to not have any belief in God. Just don't revile against each other for our beliefs.

The problem with religious beliefs is that they WILL divide us. Religious dogma makes such declarations as 'OURS is the one true faith', or 'WE are god's chosen people'. Wars are fought, innocents are slaughtered, people are enslaved, women and children are subjugated, all in the name of faith. Now religion is being used in America as a political football, not to unite us but to divide us.

Please practice your religion within the bounds of logic, kindness and tolerance. Do not use it to trample upon the rights of others. Do not expect religion to solve all your problems or make your life perfect. And most of all, don't judge a book by its cover. Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing.

Al, Al, Al...... The "Founding Fathers" didn't "conceive" of a lot of things. Get your head out of the sand, Al, start paying attention to what the definitions of the words the "Founding Fathers" used were when they used those words. They defined "militia" according to their use of the word, not the "modern" 1903 LEGAL definition; they meant what they said, and they said what they meant.

p.s., "living document" means only that the document can be added to, to reflect the attitudes and morals of the times -- not that the meanings of the words can be twisted to anyone's political agenda.

What the founding fathers discussed doesn't not matter other then in a history class, what does matter, is what the 55 founding fathers agreed on and passed, and what the states ratified.

Not really, the founders writings on intent are among the first thing the courts look to when interpreting the meaning of the Constitution when challenged.

Al, a criminal is ANYONE who has ignored the Law, for whatever reason at all. Period. You complain about others playing games with semantics -- and then you play the same games.

I'm bored, so I'll chime in.

I read about a study on the efficacy of prayer. You have a couple of groups, one who are being prayed for, one who are not. Neither group knows which is which. There was no statistically significant difference in recovery. Then you have a group who are not being prayed for and group who are being prayed for and know it. The group being prayed for actually fared worse. Why? Not sure, but they believe it may have to do with a sense of pressure to get better causing stress which prolonged their conditions.

Like was said earlier, the only explanation of why one person is "healed" when another is not is that is't God's will or God's plan. If it's God's will/plan, then what good does prayer do? Isn't God going to do what God's going to do? It's a great safety net. Was prayer answered? Yes. Then prayer worked. Was prayer answered? No. It was God's plan. Either way, God wins. Why doesn't God heal amputees? Still more, if God wants this girl to be well, why didn't he just stop the gun from going off in the first place? Why didn't God prevent your child from being born with bleeding lungs to begin with? Oh, that's right, it's God's plan...

On to the topic at hand; guns. Banning guns would be a ridiculous idea. As the saying goes, "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns." Would the world be a better place without guns? Sure. Is that a going to happen? No. The fact is that guns exist. So we have to work with what we've got.

Sally, the issue IS gun laws -- and the people who CHOOSE to ignore them. The "accident" happened because the guy CHOSE to bring a loaded gun into a church (when that church likely had banned guns to begin with), and then didn't bother to make damn sure the gun was REALLY empty when he CHOSE to show it to someone.

This IS all about gun laws.

So lets say Democrats make guns illegal, and no one other then military and police are allowed to own any sort of weapon at all. Would most of you feel safer? Now lets say 4 years after this law Republicans are elected with a vast majority and decide to keep their power they will round up dissidentsand liberals for some "safety" reasons. Even though many civilian Republicans would be against this the question would be would they risk their lives to save you liberals being targeted. Since they are unarmed as are you, the answer as history tell us is NO.

Gun ownership not only allows me to have the same weapons as a gang member threatening my family, it also gives the government a reason to not piss to many of us off.

bhaskie, the people I have known did not start demanding anything, yet their children still died. Please stop trying to preach your religion to everyone.

Because bringing a gun to church is so godly!

Could we please stop collapsing comments? I have to uncollapse them to read them and it just seems a waste of time. If you don't like what was said...don't vote for it. Conservatives, dialogue...Liberals no censorship. The rest of "us", quit peeing your pants! Trust Sally and Tyler to do their thing.

Best Regards

LogicRequired, you target "liberals" as the ones who are anti-gun. Bet you either don't know, or choose to ignore, the fact that it was a CONSERVATIVE group who pushed for the Brady Gun Laws. That's right, it was the wife of Jim Brady who started and pushed for the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act -- which RONALD REAGAN SUPPORTED.

It ain't just the 'liberals" who want to take away your right to own and possess "arms", LogicRequired.

Kaybeetoys, I think we are both on the same page here, for the most part. It all comes down to respect of each others' beliefs. I was upset when another poster said the congregation joining in prayer for the injured child was "tripe". There was no point for that.

And I agree, "faith without works is dead". (James 2:20) Ghandi was spot on. But he never said that faith is worthless.

As for allowing the innocent to live their lives free of violence and fear by putting aside guns, that I do not agree with. In my community, where there are quite a few gun owners, I have never felt my life or right to liberty be threatened due to guns. My son is in the police acedemy, and there is a 9mm Glock locked away in his room in the home where me, my wife and other kids live. It doesn't threaten me.

My dad, an avid hunter, grew up around guns on the ranch his dad was the foreman of. When I was growing up, there were rifles, shotguns, and hand guns in our home. We were taught how to respect and safely handle these.

Gun ownership among the citizens of this country and being free from fear of violence are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I will safely and legally use those guns I have to protect the right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness for my family if infringed upon by those who may seek to take it unlawfully, by any means.

Finally, religion does not have to be divisive. I don't appreciate Bible Thumpers who will be quick to damn those who do not believe as they do. Just the same as I don't appreciate Atheists who look down their noses in their own wisdom to judge those who believe in God as illiterate idiots who can't think for themselves.

"Judge not that ye be not judged." Respect. It's more than a song.

I don't see how religion or faith has anything to do with this topic. Yes the guy happened to be at a church but so what, athesist don't own guns, or have accidents?

LogicRequired, you target "liberals" as the ones who are anti-gun. Bet you either don't know, or choose to ignore, the fact that it was a CONSERVATIVE group who pushed for the Brady Gun Laws.

First of all the post I think you are referring to was a hypothetical. I know many liberal gun owners and I know this issue crosses party lines both ways. Second, you either don't know or ignore the fact that cities and states with the toughest gun control laws are all ran by democrats (Washington D.C., New Jersey - when the laws passed it was all democrats, Chicago, ect..) States with the least gun regulations tend to be ran by Republicans (Texas, Tennessee, Nebraska, ect..) Seriously who are you trying to fool with your argument?

When an atheist, or *gasp* a "satanist" (pagan, wiccan, druid, heathen, etc, etc), "accidentally" does this sort of thing, they're automatically worse than the worst scum of the entire Universe -- because "everyone knows" that if an atheist, or *gasp* "satanist" (pagan, wiccan, druid, heathen, etc, etc), does this it MUST be deliberate.

But because the guy is a Christian, there can be no question that it was an accident. After all, "he didn't know the gun was loaded".

However, prayer doesn't work. What happened to your son was good, but that doesn't prove prayer did anything. There may be a perfectly logical, medical reason the bleeding stopped. The body's capacity to heal itself is quite remarkable. Just because it cannot be easily explained doesn't mean an invisible deity was involved. I can say this: NO UNAMBIGUOUS PRAYER EVER GETS ANSWERED. None. Literally 0%. If you eliminate ALL possible chances of coincidence and leave only divine intervention as the cause, it will never happen. Try it. Pray for all cancer to be eliminated, worldwide, permanently. No matter how many believers pray for this, no matter how great their "faith," you KNOW it will not happen. You KNOW this.

www.whywontgodhealamputees.com

Thanks for posting that. I hope the logic of it will clearly demonstrate that we don't get answers to prayers, unless we are asking for what we already possess within ourselves: patience, fortitude, tolerance, humility, acceptance.

Pointing out to you, LogicRequired, that every gun-control law has been supported by CONSERVATIVES -- Conservatives who "just happen" to be REPUBLICAN. Or are you just ignoring the fact that the restriction of Gun Rights started with Republicans trying to make people "safer"?

Al your change to the 2nd amendment is nice, since the founding fathers couldn't possibly have foreseen something like the internet should we rewrite the 1st amendment, maybe throw in a section about only having free speech if you have a certain intelligence level or are at least a college graduate? Or some other test?

What other freedoms given to "we the people" would you like to put asterisks next to?

My dad, an avid hunter, grew up around guns on the ranch his dad was the foreman of. When I was growing up, there were rifles, shotguns, and hand guns in our home. We were taught how to respect and safely handle these.

Gun ownership among the citizens of this country and being free from fear of violence are not mutually exclusive. In fact, I will safely and legally use those guns I have to protect the right to Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness for my family if infringed upon by those who may seek to take it unlawfully, by any means.

bhaskie, thanks for your reply. I too grew up around guns. My dad was a hunter and the entire family went along sometimes to shoot pheasants or quail. We were taught gun safety and there was never an incident, even though we had a cabinet full of guns (kept locked).

But something has changed over the years since I was a kid. Our culture is much more violent. The constant shootings, even accidental, are way out of line. I do not own a gun myself.

I think it is the responsibility of everyone who insists on gun ownership to come together to find a solution to this problem. Our rights as citizens of this country are not more important than our responsibilities. The life you save may be your own, or your child's.

Thank you LogicRequired. So what the guy was in a church. This is 'Marketing 101'. Sensationalize some aspect to sell the idea. In this case, the author uses the 'church' angle to draw posters they KNOW will respond to this hot-button topic.

bhaskie - You have done well today. Thank you for all your input. 1.89 sums it up well! The Church kept opposition silent for centuries, even killing any who thought differently, or read the Scriptures and decided for themselves that what was being taught was NOT what was written!

Now that we all have a stage to voice our opinions, some get louder and more adamant as a result of being kept quiet for so long. Yes, our opinions differ between believers and non-believers. Fighting will not settle anything, except for who is the strongest. Jesus said he would not fight, for if it were to be, the Father would send His angels to fight for him - for His kingdom was NOT of this world. We do what we can, where we can. Hopefully the ones now being allowed to speak out without fear of 'termination' will allow us to speak our minds as well.

Sorry, meant to say "restriction of hand-gun rights".

I think it is the responsibility of everyone who insists on gun ownership to come together to find a solution to this problem.

There is an easy fix, harsher penalties for criminals that commit crimes with firearms or people caught with illegal firearms. Let's enforce the laws we already have on the books more strictly before we go trying to turn this country into a nation full of victims.

LogicReguired

So to all of those who want to ban gun ownership I would like to ask another question.

Who's going to come and take my guns away from me? You going to come and confiscate my guns? You going to make a law and turn all those millions of people who don't turn in their guns criminals? You going to sent the police and military to arrest and shoot gun owners with no criminal records?

You people are the reason I own guns!!

Every time there is an accidental shooting like this incident or a deliberate shooting, certain people get all up in arms that their guns will be taken away from them. I've read a lot of the comments about this news story, and only one person here advocated banning gun ownership. The reality is that we have millions of guns in this country and they are here to stay.

So the question becomes: Are we satisfied with the level of gun violence/gun accidents in America? Are gun owners O.K. with the tens of thousands of accidental shootings and suicides that guns produce every year? Are they fine with the number of murders committed by gun owners who had no prior criminal record?

Those of us who do not own guns and would like to see an improvement on this issue can't make any headway against the NRA.

If you are content with the status quo (which seems to get worse every year), then please be honest enough to say so.

If you are a gun owner sitting on your b#tt doing nothing to change things for the better, then you are the reason, individually and collectively, for the deaths and injuries caused by the culture of guns in America. It will only get better when you wake up and do something to make it better.

Are they fine with the number of murders committed by gun owners who had no prior criminal record?

Do you have any numbers on this or examples? I would love to read about citizens with no prior criminal record or mental health issues using legally purchased firearms to commit murder. And if you do find some, is it a big amount compared to the 80 million gun owners in America?

Mike757

Godisreal, you should move to LA, since California has such strict gun laws they have little to no gun violence there. It is like a utopia.

I've been to L.A. many times and have never thought of it as a safe place or a utopia... I assume this was sarcasm?

So how do you arrive at this conclusion:

There is an easy fix, harsher penalties for criminals that commit crimes with firearms or people caught with illegal firearms. Let's enforce the laws we already have on the books more strictly before we go trying to turn this country into a nation full of victims.

??????

Kaybeetoys, I have to get back to work, so I can't continue to follow this posting as much as I have. I just wanted to thank you for your objective and reasonable responses.

I agree, people owning guns who do not abide by the laws, let alone the safety rules, is a problem. However, you cannot be expected to face a violent offender who is armed with ANY type of weapon with soothing words only. Restricting access to firearms for responsible, law abiding citizenry is not the answer. Stop illegal abusers, not legal users of firearms.

The life saved by a responsible gun carrier may be their own, yours or your childs. For every news story where abuse or misuse of firearms is reported, there are incidents where legal carrier of firearms have prevented criminals from exacting an even greater toll on the public citizenry. (Salt Lake City, Trolley Square, 2007. Jackson, MS, 2007. Pocono, PA, Sept. 2008. Pheonix, AZ, January 2011. Oklahoma City, Dec. 31, 2011. and on and on.)

Pointing out to you, LogicRequired, that every gun-control law has been supported by CONSERVATIVES -- Conservatives who "just happen" to be REPUBLICAN. Or are you just ignoring the fact that the restriction of Gun Rights started with Republicans trying to make people "safer"?

Really? So your argument is Republicans are anti gun and Democrats are pro gun? Seriously, what is your argument?

What a couple of Republicans voted for a gun law therefore my generalization that Democrats/liberals tend to be more anti gun and Conservatives/Republicans tend to be more Pro gun is not valid? You are the only one who would try and make that argument. I gave states, cities, and facts to back up my generalizations, why don't you try doing the same. If I asked anyone in the country who do think has more anti gun laws San Francisco or Tulsa what do you think the answer would be? What if it were New Jersey vs Ohio? Liberal states and cities have more anti gun laws because Democrats / Liberals pass the laws to restrict guns!!! Conservative states like Texas have more pro gun laws because it is run be Republicans / conservatives who tend to not want to restrict guns. It's called generalization, look it up.

I've been to L.A. many times and have never thought of it as a safe place or a utopia... I assume this was sarcasm?

So how do you arrive at this conclusion:

Yes, it was sarcasm, I was pointing out that despite California having the strictest gun laws in America some of their cities see the most gun and gang violence.

I came to the conclusion based on the fact we are too soft on gun offenders. As a quick example...

http://www.baltimorecity.gov/Residents/HealthSafety/SaferCity/GunStatistics.aspx

If you are content with the status quo (which seems to get worse every year), then please be honest enough to say so.

I'm content with the status quo. Seems to get worse every year or reported more every year? If it is worse show something that proves that. Overall from what I have read crime and murder has been going down every year. There has been a little uptick with the bad economy but still much better then say 20 years ago. The book Freakonomics is where I read about the numbers improving.

So the question becomes: Are we satisfied with the level of gun violence/gun accidents in America? I would never be satisfied, and would always push for better but not at the expense of more laws. Are gun owners O.K. with the tens of thousands of accidental shootings and suicides that guns produce every year? I don't know about how many accidental shootings there are but I don't think it's ten of thousands. Suicides I think are irrelevant because you don't know if these same people would of overdosed, jumped off a bridge, or something else had they not had a gun available. Are they fine with the number of murders committed by gun owners who had no prior criminal record? Again I don't know that number, but my guess is it is fairly low and acceptable to me if the alternative is strickter gun laws.

Finally, religion does not have to be divisive. I don't appreciate Bible Thumpers who will be quick to damn those who do not believe as they do. Just the same as I don't appreciate Atheists who look down their noses in their own wisdom to judge those who believe in God as illiterate idiots who can't think for themselves.

Religion doesn't have to be divisive, but as soon as you get people who thing an all powerful being favors them over others that's what you get.

First off my heart and PRAYERS go out to this young local girl, It was a horrible accident that could have easily been avoided with basic gun safety. He should receive criminal charges and never own a firearm again.

I also want to say thanks msnbc for calling it a magazine and not a clip. Gun guy joke lol.

To those so appalled that people are selling things in church, have you ever been to St Paul's in NYC? How about St. Vincent's? They have freaking gift shops in there and i was truly turned off to the churches because of that. Especially St. Pauls using a national tragedy to make a profit (typical church methods) makes me wonder if Jesus would be in there w a whip turning over tables and driving the cashier out. I fully believe in God, my faith doesn't need scientific proof and to say prayer doesn't work because its never been proved is dumb. We as human being don't know a hell of a lot more than we do know and to dismiss anything based on that logic would end scientific advancement in its entirety.

Religion doesn't have to be divisive, but as soon as you get people who think an all powerful being favors them over others that's what you get.

If you knew anything about what people of faith believe then you would know they DO NOT think an all powerful favors them over others. In fact many think they will have it worse then those who don't believe because their faith will be tested by evil. Believers think everyone is a sinner and not perfect, we are are equal in our failure to be pure. Many of us simply believe that by believing and praying we are forgiven for these failures and will go to a place that is perfect and pure when we die. Believers aren't trying to get you to believe just because they want to change your life, they just want to make sure you get to enjoy the beautiful afterlife. Can you blame people for wanting you to experience love and peace? Even if you don't believe it, wouldn't you feel worse if they didn't want you to believe and join them in the afterlife? What would that say about us Christians if we didn't try to bring the lost home? (Lost from our prospective, not yours)

Mike - free speech isn't the subject of this article and it doesn't kill innocent bystanders, unless it's a politician that is boring a crowd to death (Gingrich, Palin, Reid, Bonehead or Biden).

There are places where guns don't belong such as churches, schools, or hospitals. If you feel so threatened that you need to "be packing heat" in church - then you need to find a different church or a different religion.

As to crimminal records, there is a differance between a traffic cititation, and a felony conviction. And if you received a less than honorable discharge from the military - you don't need the right to have a gun.

The word "militia" does not have the same meaning now as it did in the 1780s - but the amendment states that it is the reason that the right to bear arms shall not be infringed upon. It does not state because of home defense, to go hunting, or to go the range and kill some paper targets - it states because of the need to be ready to raise a militia.

The Milita Act that created the National Guard does not change the 2nd Amendment as many states still have a state authorized militia - they don't get any funding - but their still a state defense force.

http://www.adl.org/mwd/faq4.asp it's a long article, but here is part of it.

Article 1, Section 10 of the Constitution states: "No state, shall without the consent of Congress.. keep Troops..in time of Peace." Are the militia "troops"? Are state defense forces part of the militia or are they state "troops" to which Congress has by s.109(c) consented? How can state definitions of those eligible/subject to militia duty be sometimes wider than the federal definition?

A. There has been common agreement for more than 200 years that militia are not 'troops.' The quoting of the Dunne v. Illinois definition of militia by the U.S. Supreme Court in the 1990 Perpich case (see 3.65) settles the issue: the militia not 'troops.'

State defense forces were originally created by federal statute during WWI and WWII to intervene in case of civil disturbance during a time when the National Guard was called away to active duty. A number of states currently have active state defense forces; all these groups are authorized and regulated by state law and are under the political and military control of the state.

Texas has a Texas State Guard which is forbidden to practice with arms, but they do wear uniforms and are state chartered, coming under the same department as the state's National Guard. Oregon has the Oregon State Defense Force, an all-volunteer group under the same organizational structure as the National Guard. The OSDF has close relations with the Oregon National Guard. Illinois, like a number of states, has a dormant state defense force that must be called into existence by the Governor.

Some of the state militia or state defense force laws include men and women equally or have an upper age range goes beyond 45 to 50 or 60 in the pool of people subject (or eligible) to do militia service. In light of the opinion of the Supreme Court in cases such as Houston v. Moore (see 3.34) or the directly on-point Opinion of the [Massachusetts] Justices (see 3.53) this expanded manpower pool is invalid. However, there is no reason why these definitions should be invalid to allow or require service in the 'troops' of a state defense
force.

So to say the term "Militia" is no longer needed because of the creation of the National Guard is not true. Again, some states have an authorized "militia" besides the Guard - other states don't.

I am a gun owner and have no problem with responible people owning guns - it's the idiots that get guns and don't know how to treat them or use them.

I own pistols, rifles, an 1842 Mountain Howitzer and a "bowling ball" mortar - the bowling balls with the finger sizing holes whistle beautiful when they fly down range.

The US Constitution in it's 2nd amendment says you have a right to own a gun. It DOES NOT say you should or have to know how it works or how to use/transport it safely.

listed on the marque outside the church: "next weeks sermon- why we cant let the devil bring guns to our church". pastor glock. or how does the church override the second amendment?

Also, your right to own a handgun ends at my front door, including the front door to my church (if the congregation is at all intelligent about it.)

I knew this one would be a conversation starter. Guns & religion. Yee Haw!!

Now if only the minister had been a gay republican, the girl was pregnant, needed an abortion to live and the person looking at the gun was drunk or a democrat we'd have a real discussion goin' on here.

fed up, it's a magazine, not a clip. There's a big difference no matter what you see on TV and in movies.

Ya Playboy, who cares dim w--,

some one is in deep hurt right now

we should be praying for Her,

not worrying about technical crap.

Gun and church? Please Jesus, come soon. Americans have lost their Faith.

Gun and church?

You sound like you think that's weird, and yet religion has always been a major impetus for violence. Christianity may hold the top honors.

No charges have been filed.

Sheriff's office spokeswoman Cecilia Barreda told Tampa Bay Online that the incident appeared to be a "tragic accident."

Sheriff's office gets to decide that? I thought that was the D.A.'s responsibility. At best, if this girl dies, he should get 2nd degree manslaughter. I'm a proponent of concealed carry and a bigger proponent of responsibility. He should be charged because the laws are designed to protect people from this situation. If a person accidentally drives a car into a crowd of people and kills some, the driver would be charged with vehicular manslaughter. He didn't intend to shoot someone, but because of his irresponsibility someone was shot. By neglecting to unload his weapon and irresponsibly bringing it to a crowded area to sell, possibly illegally in that it wasn't the proper venue for it, he put other people's lives in his care. On top of that, he was a licensed carrier. Therefore, there was reasonable expectation that he would be more responsible than most to handle such a situation properly.

Negligence should not be to hard to show here.

Damn Dirty South, I do believe your right!!! Actually, if she lives, SHE can sue his ass off!!! The fact of him being a licensed gun owner and did not even know how to unload a gun can actually leave the STATE liable as well. The State has no law requiring that people take gun safety courses before getting a license. They must have a license to do everything ELSE, and must pass competency tests. So this girl can get paid big time and cause a crap load of controversy at the same time.

Oh, and as far as the sheriff making the call? In the deep south some sheriffs are actually more powerful that the DA´s. And this guy was a local minister. Situation like that the DA would just agree rather than risk the wrath of the local Church goers.

And one more thing. I love it how this preacher, a representative of the Creator of the entire Universe, thinks he needs a Glock to protect the Church!!!! Why ARE most Christians so PRO gun??? When Jesus cleared the money changers from the temple, was he packing heat? Did he go in like Chuck Norris, guns blazing? Interesting people, these Churchees.

Hmm.. Cassie, maybe you don't know this but the biggest murderers of the 20th century were all atheist. Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot alone wrack up over 70 million deaths. Any belief can become a reason to kill. But this wasn't a case of belief, this was simply a case of sheer dumb stupidity.

I was always taught that if you weren't going to shoot at a person, even if you thought the weapon wasn't loaded, it was aimed towards the ground. You show a gun with the muzzle facing down and away from any person. And yes, you make sure that the chamber is clear.

jke911-1848379

Gun and church? Please Jesus, come soon. Americans have lost their Faith.

Lost their FAITH? They've lost their MINDS.

Carlo Caraluzzo, before you go accusing the Pastor of the church of the shooting maybe you should do a little investigating, the Pastor is Tim Kelley take your hatred against a group of people and move on.

http://www.graceconnectionchurch.org/

Cassie, maybe you don't know this but the biggest murderers of the 20th century were all atheist. Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot alone wrack up over 70 million deaths.

A drop in the bucket compared to what the Catholics alone have accomplished.

Citizens don't get 'allowed' rights except by God. The state never 'allows' rights to some and 'dis-allows' them to others. If one is adjudged an insane person or a felon, then your rights are at risk.

What is this attack on Catholics all about and why is the moderator standing still for it?

My point Cassie, was that any ideology or belief structure can become tainted once it is connected to power. It is power that corrupts not belief. It's why I am a firm supporter of seperation of church and state. Faith has much more to loose by allowing itself to become involved in politics. You cannot serve two masters at one time. Either you are serving power or you are serving God.

By the way, Cassie, if you had read the article, you would note that this story has NOTHING to do with Catholicism. I think your predjudices are showing.

There are only 4 simple rules to follow to render a gun as harmless as a baby's rattle.

1. All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.

2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)

3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule.

4. Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.

tom343

Citizens don't get 'allowed' rights except by God. The state never 'allows' rights to some and 'dis-allows' them to others. If one is adjudged an insane person or a felon, then your rights are at risk.

What is this attack on Catholics all about and why is the moderator standing still for it?

Spoken like a true delusional.

Y'all do realize that the St. Petersburg/Tampa Metropolitan area where this incident occurred is a one of the largest Cities and most populous counties in Florida. Its populations is made up primarily of "Yankee" immigrants and "snowbird" retirees from NY, DC, IL, etc.. It ain't a bunch of "racist, ignorant, red-necked, good-ol-boys". Its gang and drug problems are all results of Northeast, California, and Chicago migration. So save your ignorant "South" basing and stereo-typing, it only makes you look stupid.

There are a lot of points to this story that just don't add up too. The two men were in "a closet". The second man was "interested in purchasing a firearm", but if you read closely, he wasn't trying to buy take gun. The second person was simply showing what type he owned. I have a feeling it was the non-owner that actually discharged the firearm, the owner was still and idiot for not clearing the chamber. That is gun safety 101.

glenbo::: Magazine, clip; who but a gun freak would know the proper nomenclature. Apparently fed up is not a gun freak so what makes you think he knows what the thing is called. If a person doesn't own a gun, why should he know the proper nomenclature. I don't own one, and clip and magazine mean the same flipping thing to me.

There is no excuse for not clearing the weapon in this situation. I am sure that part of his concealed permit class covered this. It's one of the first things you learn in any weapons training. ALWAYS clear the weapon before doing anything. Even if you just had the thing in your hand one minute before you always. ALWAYS check the chamber.

This man is not only negligent and responsible for this ladies death. He's also an idiot of the highest order. I mean that is guns 101, people.

Not to worry, the shooter had a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

Too bad there isn't a concealed stupidity permit he would need to show before getting the gun.

Hitler was christian. What's your point?

Hey "differnet", you forgot something: Stalin, Pol Pot and them others you named also happened to be the Leaders of their Nations.

How about you include a few Popes in your list? They killed -- or rather were responsible for the killing of HUNDREDS (if not thousands) of millions of Jews, "Indians" and other non-Christians around the world. Oh, right, that was all done "in the name of God".

Clip, magazine.... Really, they CAN be the same thing. For example, the magazine on my Arisaka Type 38 rifle can be loaded by either putting each round into the magazine individually, or by the use of a stripper clip; my Winchester Model 94 is loaded by placing each round individually into the tube magazine; my Remington Model 511 "Scoremaster" is loaded by first placing each round individually into the clip magazine and then placing that into the receiver.

Note that the Remington Model 511 uses a CLIP MAGAZINE, the Winchester Model 94 uses a TUBE MAGAZINE, while the Arisaka Type 38 uses a STRIPPER CLIP. Don't believe me? Then go ask any "gun nut" at Gander Mountain or Cabela's about it. Better yet, go ask a gunsmith.

It's not so much I'm against guns -- it's I'm against idiots owning guns. Now if this guy had accidentally shot himself in the head, while still sad, his stupidity wouldn't be devastating another family.

I have a buddy who is an officer at a prison and he also serves as the prison's firearms instructor and one day he came over to our other friend's apartment and someone asked to see his weapon and so he takes out his 9mm -- and accidentally blasts a round into the floor. Thank God no one was hurt, but I was like -- "Really? You're the firearms instructor?"

A drop in the bucket compared to what the Catholics alone have accomplished

Cassie321, not only are you a pure bigot, you have no idea what you are talking about. Religion is used as an excuse by tyrants just like a lot of other things are.

Plus if you are going to mention the bad side of Catholics, 1.1 billion, 1/5th of the total human population, why not mention the good? Like the largest charitable organization on Earth providing services to 200 countries, providing 25% of the health care and education ion the US, and providing stability in countries that have nothing.

The Catholic Church is nothing but people, and all people are not perfect, including YOU! And since you obviuosly have a lose grasp on history, here is a clue, there is nothing special or unique about the actions of Catholics past or present, the number of criminals remains pretty much the same no matter what group you look at becauae they are all made up by humans and humans are FAR from perfect.

Judge not.

ScoMata1964, you just did what you are hollering about: Judging. differnet mentioned atheists being responsible for the deaths of "70 million", and Cassie came back with Catholics being just as responsible. You, however, are hollering about something you have chosen to do yourself.

@Differnet

The difference between, say, Pol Pot and Hitler is that Pol Pot didn't commit genocide in the name of atheism. His lack of belief in God was as relevant to his acts as his lack of belief in unicorns. Hitler, on the other hand, committed genocide because he believed it was a sin against God to mix the blood of the aryan race with other "inferior" races. He believed he was doing God's work. How many people have been killed throughout history in the name of gods?

As they saying goes "Good people will do good things. Evil people will do evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

How did I judge anyone? Is it OK to make bigoted statements about such a large percentage of the human population just because someone else did it? There is nothing subjective about bigotry.

Wow.

As they saying goes "Good people will do good things. Evil people will do evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Look up the term "specious argument". Good people do evil every day without the help of religion.

It is a good cover for bigotry I must admit.

Wilie Bustit, Hitler was a Christian, even though many people claim he wasn't a "real" Christian. Go do some research.

Is it ok to call someone a "pure bigot" just because they say something you don't like? You, ScoMata1964, have JUDGED.

BH77, you need to go read what Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot said about atheism and the need to "cleans" their countries of all religions. The killed millions in the name of destroying religion and million mores in the names of their ideology that INCLUDED, as part and parcel, atheism. Historical revisionism isn't just for the far right, I see.

Hitler, Goering, Himmler, Heydrich, Mengle, Heinrich Muller, were all baptised and raised Catholics, Hess, Bormann and Eichmann were Lutherans, Stalin and Lenin were baptised and raised in the Russian Orthodox Church, Paul Pot was educated in a Catholic French Colonial school in Cambodia. Mao's mother was a devout Buddist and he was raised that way. The Roman Catholic church helped a large number of Nazi war criminals escape justice.

Documentation on that last one. And considering the moniker you've chosen, you couldn't possibly be prejudices?!?!? Right?! *rolls eyes*

differnet: It's well-established the Church, as well as America, helped Nazis escape Europe. Do your own research.

Eugene, it is NOT well-established. That's garbage from secondary sources. I've done the research. My degrees are all in history and law. Maybe you should actually READ primary documents instead of jinned up secondary sources. I suppose you will also deny that many nuns and priest also hid Jews at the risk of their own lives. Or how about denying that many religious people ended up in concentration camps and murdered for resisting the Nazis.

what are you a left wing nut case? are you suggesting that they should take lessons before having a gun? must not belong to the NRA. (sarcasm). actually that is what us left wing nuts have been saying all along. don't take them away but train people before they are allowed to play with them.

It's called 'common sense'...something they don't teach at school...and you don't 'play' with guns...same thing applies to nail guns (no license needed), cars, hammers, knives, illegal fireworks, baseball bats, bricks, plastic trash bags, rat poison, chopsticks...I can keep going on...and I'm just looking around at what's available to me right now...oops...almost forgot the cordless electric drill...

Chi-town, If we can't play with baseball bats how do hit the baseball?

Muay thai kicks. Your shins will become like baseball bats.

Chi-town Vet:

You forgot to list "hand-held irons."

I enjoy shooting and I would NEVER join the NRA. They are an embarrassment to true gun enthusiasts. They want to put guns in the hands of every moron on the street. I agree that training and even freaking insurance should be required to own a handgun or rifle.

LOL, I think "intimately" might not have been the best choice of words!!!!!

ROFL!!!!!

Oh, no!!! I'm getting visions of that preacher being intimate with his Glock in Church!!!!!

Gun lovers will debate the issue of how this happened and why it should not have happened.

Reality check: This happens every single day in this country. It will continue unabated. This time it was in a church, ironically.

From wikipedia:

Guns have been used to assassinate President Abraham Lincoln in 1865, and Presidents James Garfield, William McKinley, and John F. Kennedy. High profile gun violence incidents, such as the assassinations of Robert F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Jr., and, more recently, the Columbine High School massacre, the Beltway sniper attacks, theVirginia Tech massacre, and the 2011 Tucson shooting...

There were... 23,237 accidental non-fatal gunshot injuries in the United States during 2000. The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides, with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.

All the gun nuts had better pray for themselves.

Kaybeetoys - This is strictly an American problem. In other countries in Europe people are encouraged and even told to own firearms, including fully automatic weapons. Yet their murder and armed crime rates are in the single digit percents whereas Americas is in the range of 40-55%. So, is it a 'gun nut' issue or a stupidity issue?

Reading comprehension is a must.

Some people feel uncomfortable with a certain state of affairs. In this case guns galore. So they use all sorts of examples and misinformation to try getting others on their bandwagon. Most of which can and are immediately refuted by people that feel otherwise. Maybe you anti-gunners would do better convincing some if instead of bogus and anecdotal so-called examples, you'd give the real 'why' you'd rather disarm the citizens and leave weapons in the hands of the state(fed, state, town). Does history show this makes the citizens safer, happier, more secure?

John Doe-2437959

Kaybeetoys - This is strictly an American problem. In other countries in Europe people are encouraged and even told to own firearms, including fully automatic weapons. Yet their murder and armed crime rates are in the single digit percents whereas Americas is in the range of 40-55%. So, is it a 'gun nut' issue or a stupidity issue?

In America it's both. Stupidity doesn't kill other people. Guns do.

Maybe you anti-gunners would do better convincing some if instead of bogus and anecdotal so-called examples, you'd give the real 'why' you'd rather disarm the citizens and leave weapons in the hands of the state(fed, state, town). Does history show this makes the citizens safer, happier, more secure?

I'm not about to join the ranks of the survivalists or the conspiracy theorists. I'm just trying to live my life without some nut who "didn't know his gun was loaded" shooting me or someone I care about. Or living through another political assassination or school shooting.

You can hide fearfully behind your gun barrel, but the reality is that the U.S. military would decimate you and your puny weapons, if your delusions ever became reality.

@ Differnet: Hitler was baptized in the Catholic church and some say was a practicing Catholic.

this guy had his head up his ass for sure

most concealed carry classes are 10 hours long.for someone who has been around guns for a long time its ok.

for someone just starting out not long enough, they should at least have to pass the same training course the police do.....

kellyn, "and some say [he] was a practicing Catholic." By that logic, if I say you are an alien, are you? Come on kellyn... Your logic or actually, your uttter lack of logic is frightening.

kilroy, and I have friends who have attended thos classes and for. at least some, they said they actually did nothing but sit there and BS most of the time. There was no real instruction. It was all about getting the fee. It's a damn shame, because you can always find someone willing to take the pay and not do the work. The whole concealed carry has become more about a mindset of aggression and power than it has been about defense.

kaybeetoys, guns don't kill people -- stupid people with guns kill people. Just remember, in at least 99% of all cases of gun injury/death, the trigger has to be actuated in some way for the gun to do what it is designed to do. In the real world, that means either someone who DELIBERATELY chooses to shoot someone else (us Civilians call those people "criminals") --- or some moron who later says something like "I didn't know it was loaded".

I'm a "liberal", and I believe in Gun Control -- knowing where it "happens" to pointed (NEVER at anything you do not intend to shoot - even "accidentally"), KNOWING whether it is loaded or not (and always is - even when it isn't), and OBEYING THE LAW concerning guns.

If you want to be precise, it's not the gun that kills but the bullet.

If stupidity killed us, we'd all be dead.

When seconds count, police are minutes away.....

The sheer size of this country and the sparce population in most areas makes owning a gun a needed option.

Jusges tell people being stalked this all the time to get a gun because we cant do anything until something is done to you and it may be too late then.

Also, I find it funny how people on the East Coast approach everything from that point of view, not the point of view of someone that lives in areas where bears, big cats, or big reptiles also live.

ScoMata1964, YOU may happen to live in an area with "sparse population", but the majority of the people in the U.S.A. do not. Oh, and there are still bears, big cats and reptiles living in many cities, even the "East Coast" -- they just are not very common in those places.

Hint: The entire south half of Florida is less than 140 miles from the middle of the Everglades. Do some research, ScoMata.

Too bad "the Lord" is imaginary.

Well, Love1&all, his "conversation with the lord" will come a little too late.

Apologists and prayer circles should unite with gun owners and florists. They will sadly tell us how tragic this is, and how the shooter should have made sure his gun wasn't loaded. They will pray for the victim and her family. And then they will go leave a bouquet and a stuffed toy in front of the church.

It will happen again tomorrow somewhere in America.

Thinkforyouself, how do you know? What scientific LAW states that there is no possible way for God to exist? Actually where did you get the credibility to actually make that call? Oh, you didnt. At least God gives a reason for the existence itself... all you can say is it came from nothing. Both arguments sound irrational because mankind does not how why existence it is. So until you can explain all forces energy, matter, and whatnot as well as a fundamental question like "Is the universe infinitely complex?" or "Are there 5+ dimensions" or maybe even just know what something like dark matter and dark energy (which our given those names because SCIENCE DOES NOT KNOW what it is) THEN you would have enough credibility to state whether or not there is a god. But right now, you dont even know how many dimensions there are, so cool story bro. But please by all means, thinkforyourself, enlighten mankind with this knowledge you have apparently held from us for so long. Don't get me wrong though. At least you can say there is MOST LIKELY no God or gods, and still take all LOGIC into consideration instead of making an assumption that is no better than the guy who thinks the universe was created in exactly 6 days.

Ryan, ThinkforYourself simply has a theory that alligns with his personal beliefs, and nothing but faith to prove that he is correct.

Kinda ironic huh?

lol ya to have an opinion about the unkown you gotta have some faith

thinkforyourself, if your name is suggestive as it appears to be, why even tell people to do so? According to atheism (and indirectly you), theres no point in anything anyways so what exactly are you trying to do? My guess is troll, because iv only seen poor statements (at best) so far.

ted, you left out the most important part, which is keep your finger off the trigger.

No Glenbo, he left out the Most important part, his brain...

I'm not against guns as much as I am against the American attitude towards guns. Here's a blog article I wrote last year on this subject:

http://www.halfbakedlunatic.com/post/2011/06/09/Americans-and-their-Guns.aspx

Lunatic --

I read your blog entry. It was excellent. I particularly appreciate your well-thought-out rebuttals to the objections against gun control.

I wish everyone here would read your post, or you would reproduce it here.

I've bookmarked it for future reference. It was that good.

I totally agree. Lunatic, your blog entry about guns was absolutely on the money. Please keep posting it everywhere. It might actually sink through to some of these cement heads.

I've been a follower of the "Half Baked Lunatic" blog since I met the author at my university a few years ago, he was a guest lecturer in my ethics class. He is a very outspoken atheist and does a great talk on the fallacy of religion. This article is one of my favorites, I've posted the link to it in the comments of a few MSNBC articles myself.

And yet, really stupid and unaccountable gun toters live everywhere...

True, they are just more prevelent in Texas and Florida.

Let's not forget Virginia.

Virginia is for (gun) lovers.

About as much as we should have for the ability to vote. Dolt.

Hey Carl, if you actually think Obama wants to take away your right to free speech, than I wouldn't be calling anyone else an idiot. You freaking moron.

Sounds like another bigot

WOW!!

A bigot... you got all that from the gun going off accidentally. Tell me what other Jedi abilities you have. You must be good!!

Hey Carl--he wasn't commenting on the story, but on the comment above his. read before you post.

I was wondering when the Klan was going to show up. Hi Kluxie Whuxie!

Never pass up an opportunity to point out a BIGOTED comment. Byronio, your comment highly suggests you are either a bigot or an idiot or both - your choice, pick one.

Suggesting a person's ethnicity is reason enough to impugn them is not American.

Agreed Bo and I wanna add to that ,after the clip is popped and mag is locked open. Its a good idea to keep the barrel pointing down or up, while showing your firearm.

WAKE UP!!!

*Wonders if the anti-gun people will try to punish all of America for this*

Keep America free.

"A little information for everyone, A GUN IS ALWAYS LOADED!!!!!!"

Damn right. My father taught me to hunt and shoot from the time I was ten years old. Most of all, he taught me to treat all guns with respect and to treat every one of them as if it were loaded, even if I am absolutely sure it is not.

I used to love to hunt, but I gave it up years ago because there were too many idiots in the woods who were clueless about firearms safety.

Oh I think America is receiving plenty of punishment from the unfettered proliferation of handgun violence already, thanks.

I'm not anti-gun. I'm anti-handgun. Keep your shotguns, keep your rifles. But a handgun has no other purpose than killing other human beings. That's WHY it is created. That's its function. There's simply no valid reason for average citizens in a supposedly civilized society to be armed with concealed handguns.

For examples of why I believe this to be so, simply check your local paper on a daily basis.

That isn't the first time I've heard of someone being shot because the owner didn't know that one bullet is always loaded in the chamber with that kind of gun. I'm surprised that there has never been any law mandating that handguns should be constructed in such a way as to automatically engage the safety when the clip is removed. Of course any gun owner should know better, but it doesn't change the fact that this sort of mistake is a very human thing with very tragic consequences.

Its a good idea to keep the barrel pointing down or up, while showing your firearm.

As an adult, I've probably handled a gun half-a-dozen times. My dad taught us kids how to handle a gun, how to clean a gun, and how to shoot when I was about 10 years old. We spent about a year with target shooting as a family hobby.

Nevertheless, the few times I've held a gun since then I have never not pointed the barrel up or down. Never. The whole idea that anyone would handle a gun of any kind differently is incredible to me. It would give me the willies to hold it any other way.

The problem with the general public having guns is that a) they don't know how to handle them; b) they are too immature; and c) too many of them are just plain stupid.

And to you Christians out there: why are you praying to God for this little girl to live? This child was in church and was shot in the head. Surely that would have been the will of your God -- or is your God too busy to care unless you constantly heckle him like a 2 year old wanting a cookie?

No, forget it. I don't even want to hear your lame answer.

Rockyroad-531554

*Wonders if the anti-gun people will try to punish all of America for this*

Keep America free.

Maybe you think freedom consists in having the right to 'accidentally' kill innocent people, but that is not my definition of freedom.

Freedom to me means being reasonably assured of my personal safety from some wacko with a gun. We don't have THAT freedom in this country.

Unless a gun is pieces, it is loaded and can kill, always.

Hand guns are designed for one purpose, to shoot people. They are not designed for hunting, or target shooting, or any other purpose.

People should not be at all surprised when someone gets shot by a hand gun.

Cassie,

Actually, if you read the article, the "girl" is like 20 years old. So, I would hardly call her a "little" girl. I know the anti-gun zealots don't care about the "facts" and are trying to spin this to make everyone think if was some toddler in a little pink dress with ribbons in her hair, to play up the "innocent child" angle. It is still terrible that this young lady was hit by a bullet that penitrated through the walls and struck her, but don't we hear about that all the time in Gang drive-by shooting reports?

There are ignorance laws in America...but the ones who pass them are the ones who have always needed these laws the worse. For instance...in Arizona...they had so many people through the years drive into swollen rain soaked roadways. Finally...the state legislature passed a law if you do this...you pay all costs for your rescue. Usually what happens...even with the law...the person will claim they don't have the money...so they end up in the same situation as before the law.

Personally...you do anything like this...you should be allowed to perish as an object lesson to others. The only bad thing is that people will never learn because they believe it will never happen to them.

Not "automatic?" Then why is it .45 ACP (and not .45 SCP)?

It just doesn't matter what it is, does it? Any gun in the hands of a TeaIdiot is an inevitable accident.

dudogger

Did it really say he was a Tea Party member? You must be another Jedi here on this page. Tell me what other Jedi abilities you have. You must be good!!

You presumptive moron...

The "ACP" differentiates two bullets of the same caliber, for pistols and revolvers especially in the .45 cal..

It amazes me that a little girl was shot in the head, and all you gun-addicts think it's appropriate to come here to discuss your various hardware.

That obsessiveness and lack of judgment and concern for others is exactly why you don't need a gun.

the article said she was 20.

.

did you even read the article cassie ?

Oh sorry, I did miss that part. I guess that makes all the difference. If she's over 18, it doesn't matter if she's shot in the head.

..it means you didnt read the article.

way to go.

"clip us popped out and mag locked open"? Huh? Please familiarize yourself with handguns before you make a comment regarding same. The magazine is taken out, and the slide locked open.

Cassie it opens up the avenue for all to push their beliefs or lack of. If people want to pray I would like to know how it is hurting those who don't believe. The non-believers are always screaming how Christianity is pushed on them, but boy will they push their beliefs every and anytime they can. This happened in a church so I am sure prayers will be said, you don't believe don't, but don't push your ideals down others throats.

DJsvineyard, there are 4 rules that make any kind of negligent discharge almost impossible. They are:

1. All guns are always loaded. Treat them as if they are, all the time.

2. Never put your finger on the trigger unless you are ready to fire the weapon.

3. Never let the muzzle cover anything that you aren't ready to destroy.

4. Know your target, what's behind it, and what's IN FRONT of it.

Those are Lt. Col. Jeff Cooper's rules, and they are the best summary of gun handling ever. You can Google or Bing him if you don't know of him. He was my teacher many years ago, now passed on.

Everyone's an expert, eh?

I think you left a point off your list:

5. Don't take your effing loaded handgun to church!

Does anyone SERIOUSLY think Jesus Christ would have advocated handgun ownership? I'm pretty sure he said things like, "Love your enemy," and "Turn the other cheek." But yeah, since "Christians" pretty much ignore everything the man said anyway, I guess it makes sense to just throw those edicts on the scrap heap as well.

The Pastor had a permit to carry the gun which means he could carry it to and from church. Is he to leave it in the car once he gets to work?

It was in the closet at the church which means he was NOT carrying it on his person.

The person he was showing it to wanted to buy it, that is way he had it in his hand not in the holster.

Some pastor if he was so afraid he had to carry a weapon to church! Where was his faith?

Jesus had a lot of enemies. Did He arm himself or His followers?

More pious baloney.

glenbo, you forgot rule #5:

(Small children can't read your rules.)

KEEP ALL WEAPONS UNLOADED AND LOCKED AWAY.

Of course, then when the bogey man breaks into your house intent on killing you, your gun will be useless.

So you might want to keep it loaded and under your pillow with the safety off, just in case.

Good luck with that.

According to the article in the NEWSWPAPER, the guy who took the gun to church was a member and also did jobs around the church. The pastor's last name is Kelley, same as the young lady's.

So the pastor didn't bring his gun to church and so he was NOT showing it to someone. One of those present when the guy was showing the gun was the boyfriend of the victim.

My best to Miss Kelley. May she have a complete recovery from this incident.

Everyone's an expert, eh?

Honestly, it's four simple rules, so it isn't really tough to be an expert in firearms safety.

Two guys in a closet, one was reciting the lines, 'This is my weapon, this is my gun.' FMJ. Maybe there were TWO 'discharges?'

Until someone breaks into our home intending to harm you or a loved one. That's when you will wish you had a gun!

Kevin, how are you going to protect yourself and/or your family when someone comes in your door to harm you with "Illegally obtained" firearms? You think 911 is going to save you? If all guns are banned do you really think that the criminals are going to give up theirs? The criminals are going to be the only ones left with guns. Sorry, I'm not willing to pay for other peoples stupidity.!

Why don't you move to China if you want to life protection free?!!!

Kevin, The only ones that will give up their guns will be the honest law abiding citizens. Criminals and people like this guy in the article aren't going to give them up. So you are proposing only thugs and morons should be packing. Kevin you are a dangerous person to be allowed to have a computer. " Raid houses, go door to door get the guns." Sounds like you might be happier in North Korea or some similar country, as we have too many rights for you here.

Evidently Kevin wasn't at the gun show over the weekend. Very few people own weapons? Let me help you. Very few men with pony tails and berets with matching sweater vests own weapons.

Kevin-747617

"BAN GUNS . END OF STORY. There is a Republican plot to cover up the dangers of weapons ownership. Very few people own weapons. Ban them and this idiocy will stop. Raid houses, go door to door get the guns. Eventually, we will get them out of the hands of idiots. The right to bear arms is outdated now. Get rid of it."

Kevin sir I think some of your comments are incorrect. Gun ownership has been escalating exponentially since 2008.

I wonder why?

Please don't punish me for what someone else does. With your logic the next time a drunk driver kills someone they should ban all cars and alcohol?

paranoid?

I would agree with the move to ban handguns, but not all guns. The 2nd Amendment doesn't give Americans the right to own any and all firearms they choose. You cannot legally own a bazooka or anti-aircraft gun. You cannot legally own a rocket-propelled grenade launcher. There is no clear reason why handguns should be legal in a civilized society.

If we as a society wanted to do this, it would be quite plausible. Manufacture a selection of handguns for law enforcement that use a certain size shell not used in any other current handgun. Then eliminate and illegalize the production of all other ammunition. In time, every other gun would become useless.

Manufacture a selection of handguns for law enforcement that use a certain size shell not used in any other current handgun. Then eliminate and illegalize the production of all other ammunition. In time, every other gun would become useless.

Except for the fact that there are too many criminal cops who would sell them like they sell the drugs they've confiscated.

You can't create an imaginary scenario like that as your argument. Look at Singapore, Japan, Malaysia... any one of DOZENS of other countries without handguns. Their police officers use handguns, but they don't have the problem you invented.

Easy: When a cop gets his gun, it's obviously registered solely to him (or her). Cops don't routinely get a drawerful of handguns as part of their job. They're issued one badge and one gun. Right? So it seems like your scenario would be pretty easy to avoid.

I'm quite sure a betting man would rather take his chances in a society where the scenario you posted MIGHT possibly be able to happen, versus one where every other redneck wingnut in town is walking around with a loaded semiautomatic handgun.

"Then eliminate and illegalize the production of all other ammunition."

That will never work. It is not hard to re-arm a spent shell casing. All a person has to do is make a mold of the bullet their gun uses. Save the spent shell casings, add the correct amount of gunpowder and add a primer cap. Hell I own 2 canisters of gunpowder and I don't even re-arm bullets. Plus if people are making molds of bullets the use of soft lead will come back. So if you don't die from the gunshot then you die from lead poisoning.

You can outlaw something all you want but the more you outlaw it the more people want it. Look at prohibition. All that did was make people find a way to smuggle the liquor. (Also invented Nascar :P)

You cannot legally own a bazooka or anti-aircraft gun. You cannot legally own a rocket-propelled grenade launcher.

Actually, you can. Just shows you don't really know what you're talking about.

Thinkforyourself,

Wrong. Actually, You can own a "Bazooka" or "anti-aircraft gun", if you fill out the proper paper work and don't have a criminal or Mental health record that would otherwise disqualify you. Might be hard to get "ammunition" for those "arms" as their salesare tightly regulated by Federal Government ( i.e. ATF). Guess your never watch the Discovery channel or other cable channels that have shows like "Sons of Guns". Oh, that's right. Your not a "Red-neck, Gun Nut", so you want to remain ignorant.

Very few people own weapons

Kevin, I know you are just trolling, but do you really call 80+ million American gun owners, with more than 200+ million firearms "very few"?

Alrighty then....

Any other outdated Amendments you'd like to erase? I'm thinking the 1st Amendment since the writers of the constitution couldn't possibly have foreseen something as vast as the internet giving everyone a voice I think that one needs to go. But then you couldn't post your drivel...

See post above!

Wow.

@ Don L

Tell that to the armed criminals and gangmembers.

Don, I think you left out the other part of your authoritarian utopia...sieg heil. Do you really think leaving people without personal defense is, in balance, worth it?

Like it or not, a founding principle of this nation was to fear all-powerful governments, yet that is not why most Americans would like to keep their firearms. They do so primarily in the interest of self-defense from those who would harm them whether by knife, bat or firearm. There are other countries that have a history of limited or no firearm ownership and if you would like to choose their philosophy of living, you might wish to emigrate.

You might want to try Sweden where it's real work to obtain a gun legally. Oops, they have totally socialized medicine. Oops again, their taxation rate is 50% of GDP compared to the US 35% of GDP. Do take note that they have high and above average rates (compared to other EU countries) of assaults, sexual assaults, hate crimes and fraud. Hej då,Don.

Years ago my brother, stationed in Chicago, told me the first question you asked a Chi Cop who stopped you was, "Why did you stop me, officer." If he answered that you were speeding or that you had run a stop light or sign, you were supposed to answer, "Thank goodness, I thought it was a holdup."

So why does that matter ? This is just Fodder for all you Weak Spine Liberals to Whine about what a Terrible Place America is Why dont all you Libs pick the Country of your choosing,And the rest of us Real Americans will pool our money buy you some tickets.

News flash: Liberals ARE real Americans. :)

And the rest of us Real Americans will pool our money buy you some tickets.

Okay. Get to pooling and I'll take you up on it. People like you are making this country unfit to live in.

sounds more like the 'Fodder' person was found at the shallow end of the gene 'pool' without the kiddie arm-waders on.

That wasn't "Accidental Discharge"... It was "Irresponsibly Fired"!

Don L-1949089,

Only three regulations are needed:

1. Own one

2. Load it

3. Carry it

I do suggest as a common sense approach (difficult at best for some folks), that you take the time to learn how to use said firearms in a proper and safe manner, so that you do not injure yourself or someone else accidently. (As happened in this case)

The police will always be there in minutes...when seconds count.

An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may
have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A.
Heinlein

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------

In 1911,

Turkey established gun control. >From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------

China established gun control in 1935. >From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. >From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
---- ------------- -------------

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------------

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
-----------------------------

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

------------------------------

You won't see this data on the

US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note my fellow Americans, before it's too late!

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.

With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.

During WW II the Japanese decided not to invade

America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!

If you value your freedom, please spread this anti gun-control message to all of your friends.

The purpose of fighting is to win.
There is no possible victory in defense.
The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either.
The final weapon is the brain.

All else is supplemental.

SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!
SWITZERLAND 'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.

As passed by the Congress:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Enough said

Nice fear-mongering. Most rational people don't advocate banning all guns, just more effectively controlling them. I personally subscribe to the elimination of HANDGUNS from American society. I have no personal issue with citizens owning shotguns or rifles. They can and do serve other legitimate purposes beyond defense. The handgun was created for one reason and one reason only: To kill other human beings. That is its sole function. No such "tool" has any place in the general population in a civilized society.

The 2nd Amendment does not guarantee citizens the right to own ANY firearm they choose. Even the most strident NRA-o-phile has to concede that much. You cannot legally own a cannon or an anti-aircraft gun. That's all I'm saying -- don't take away all guns. Definitely not. I respect the Bill of Rights. But HANDGUNS are demonstrably bad for society and should be eliminated. I'm sure gun lovers will disagree, and that's okay. I'm just stating my opinion. It seems to strike a compromise and, to me at least, seems reasonable.

Average Joe, your statistics are interesting, but you're living in a Rambo fantasy.

In which of the cases you quoted would any one of the Average Joe's been able to survive?

Let me ask you a different way: If the U.S. military surrounds your house, are you going to pull out your gun and shoot at them? And if you do, do you really imagine you will survive?

That's pretty far out, isn't it? So make it just the guys at your local cop shop. You gonna shoot it out with them, are you? Gonna blast 7 guys and walk away blowing on the barrel of your smokin' gun?

Right.

LMAO...at both of you...what you put up are what if's...what I posted...is factual history....period.

As for your first silly question Cassy, 90% of the average joe's would survive...so long as they all are armed and unite against their oppressors.

Your next silly question...why would they sourround anyone when they could just blow them off the face of the earth with no warning?...you are just being silly....and I would hope that my fellow patriots and neighbors would come to my aid...as I would to theirs.

And lastly....refer to the last line in in the answer just above.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. - Samuel Adams, 1776

Thinkforyourself-2427469,

"The handgun was created for one reason and one reason only: To kill other human beings."

Please stop making this stuff up as you go!

Being a Land Surveyor by trade, I use handguns to to rid myself of dangers to both myself and my crew (poisonous snakes, alligators etc. [I live in Florida])...why do I use a handgun?...because it is too cumbersome to try carrying a long gun into a heavily overgrown area along with survey equipment...and by the time you get it out.....you are usually in trouble and it is too late...a hand gun works fine for this.....don't believe me?...come do my job for a while...oh and bring your long gun....lol, you will be carrying your survey equpment also....let's see how that works out for you.

So you believe that all handguns should be eliminated, think? Let's assume that, just for a moment, this is enacted into law. Should the police and other LEOs be stripped of their handguns, in the name of setting a good example and making things 'fair', as many liberals profess to believe? If not, why not? How about the ban on "high capacity" magazines that hold more than ten rounds? Should LEOs do without them, because they concentrate too much firepower into one loading, as the advocates for stripping them from the public say?

Are you one of those who profess that handguns have only one purpose; to kill/injure people? If so, what do you base that opinion on? Handguns have many purposes they are specifically designed to do well other than 'shooting people'. For example, I have a Ruger target pistol, equipped with a rather long barrel. This renders it impractical for concealed carry and fast drawing from a pocket or holster, but it is a very good target pistol. Other people use a large handgun for short range hunting, again the weapon is bulky, not readily concealable, but is it 'made to shoot people'?

The generalizations you and other anti-gun types make are far too vague and far reaching to be viable. If we are to have laws seriously restricting the type and quantity of firearms a law abiding citizen can own, those laws should also apply to LEO & government agencies.

Cassie and Think,

So the .38 pistol my wife carries at time when she goes "into the field" as an Archaeologistto protect herself from "wild-life" of both the 4 and 2 legged kind isn't needed. Like Joe, it is impractical for her to carry a "long-gun" along with all her other equipment. She hasn't personally had to shoot anything, but some of her co-workers have. They have also walked up on Pot fields and moonshine stills, so there could have been some VERY unfriendly poeple around those sites. It hard to call 911, with no Cell service. Oh, please mister drug-dealer don't kill us for an hour or so until the police can get here. LMAO, at you.

I was born and raised in FL. Traveled the swamps quite frequently. Never needed a handgun.

I just find it amazing how so many other countries seem to manage just wonderfully without the vast proliferation of handguns. It's just incredible, especially when taking into account all these far-fetched scenarios you gun lovers dream up.

I guess the good people of Canada, Belgium, the UK, Singapore, Japan, South Korea, Finland, etc., etc. just have no idea what they're doing and all their citizens are just sitting ducks for gang rapists and wildlife attacks.

Handguns may well be USED for other functions, but that's not the intended purpose of the handgun as a general statement. The handgun was invented and created to kill other human beings. If you deny that, you're frankly delusional.

I do it daily and over the last 20 years, I have had to use mine on numerous occasions (mostly maccasins and rattlers and an occasional [to be scared off] gator). As a rule, if my crew is only going to be in a certain location for one day only, I tend to run the critters off rather than shoot them. However, if we are going to be comming back to that location for any length, I eliminate them...snakes are territorial and I do not wish for any of my crew to have a second incounter with said reptile....it probably won't be very much fun for me or my crew members.

Joe, great posts. The handgun was created for, among other things, defense. Defense can mean actually shooting it or using it as a threat to avoid being hurt. Killing is thus only one possible use for the weapon. I have read a Harvard law study that suggests per capita gun violence actually decreases as per capita CCL's increase.

it's certainly an excellent idea for NRA members to have this protection.

Too bad they can't "protect" the innocent people they shoot.