British law allows abortion up to the 24th week of pregnancy, so long as two doctors agree that the procedure would cause less harm to a woman's physical or mental health than carrying the fetus to term.

I'm surprised to find abortion so restricted in the UK. I'd assumed you could have it for any reason, as you can here. I wonder if having to look after an unwanted baby counts as harm to the mother's mental health?

This is suicidal for the British, foreign population, Indus and Muslims will overcome the British population sooner than they can imagine , the flag of the Islam will replace their flag in the British Parliament.

GUY: Very simple, you don't approve of abortion, then don't have one.

OSKAR: WTF are you talking about. Why do you have to bring religion and ethnicity into this. Clueless

hey your back again, and how does this topic make you feel? How do these people make you feel? How do I make you feel?

oskar - there were more of them than anyone else before the Crusades than afterwards but that turned out okay (for a while anyway). Just having numbers doesn't do anything if you don't have power and the UK very stupidly resigned their position as the boss of the world. By the way, most Indians don't like muslims, so good thing they are on the right side.

So, a non-profit organization want to advertise on TV. I fail to see how this is an issue. If the church is allowed to do it, they should be too.

If people don't want babies, then use a condom for sex, or don't even have sex at all.

No form of birth control is 100% effective. It's entirely possible (and happens quite often) to become pregnant despite taking all available precautions. A great number of couples seeking abortions are much more responsible than you think.

not having sex prevents pregnancy 100% of the time!!! anytime someone gets an abortion for other than legit medical reason they are doing it to shirk any responsibilities for their decisions.

@AG

Again, it goes back to responsibility. What ever happened to the days when you would have safe sex, after knowing the consuences of 'open' sex? It's simple. Abortion isn't the answer to harms on the girl's mental health, it's her decision to have safe sex or not that will affect her mental health. If she gets raped/other way of becoming pregnant, that's a different story. I believe abortions should be used solely for medical reasons, and to help those that were raped.

Like tobbacco-caused cancer, if you don't want any harm on your physical health, simply avoid smoking.

@Interpid

If you don't want an abortion, and don't approve of being pregnant, simply use a condom or abstinance.

@Sherbud

You don't make me feel anything, was I supposed to feel something? This topic isn't as strong as others, since in my opinion, this could all be avoided if people would use their common sense.

Guy, you certainly have the right to think any way you please, and others have the same right. When the majority of people think the same and decide that society will be a better society if that thought is law, then law is implemented. I personally think that abortion is nobody's business but the womans, the majority of people think so too, so, abortion is legal and there's no reason why a abortion service can't be advertised because abortion is a medical service, just like the other medical services like cancer treatment, obesity treatment, depression treatment and they are all advertised.

Wherever a country has a large number of Catholics, Muslims and evangelical Christians, there will be unwanted babies, domestic violence, poverty, substance abuse and misery. The rest of the industrialized world has understood this for the better part of 50 years. The U.S. has become the immigrant and illiterate waste dumb of choice because it denies women the right to control their own bodies, just like all 3rd world countries run by tyrannical religious institutions.

The whole point is that abortion should be solely a medical treatment, not an open service for whoever wants one. It's about who NEEDS one.

It's not because of my religion, views or values, it's about that person's choices to take responsibility, take caution, understand the consequences of an action, and choice of they want a baby or not. If you don't want a baby, then pratice abstinance of use a condom. If a person does'nt have the brain capacity to understand that simple statement, they shouldn't get an abortion (rape is a different story, but I don't want to get too in-depth with that, it will only cause hate replies and complications), it was their lack of responsibility to use a condom/abstinance, they should be responsibile for their actions, it's not anybody else's responsibility.

@mellow

I do think that medical abortion should be advertised for those who really need it (high chance of childbirth deaths, gene disorders in the child, bleeding disorder in the mother).

@little

It's not religion that is the problem. There have been atheist countries in the past with lots of domestic problems, like N. Korea for example.

Regarding abortion, most theists just believe both non-medical and medical abortion shouldn't be allowed. I'm somewhat Christian (I am, by default, agnostic theist, with some Christian values), yet I approve of medical abortion.

Yes, let the women control her body, but as long as she doesn't lose that control to other means. She has to pratice responsibilty if she doesn't want a baby. Buy a condom, I'm sure they aren't THAT expensive. Or simply they shouldn't have sex at all if a couple aren't ready for it.

Excuse me, guy from Orlando, but who are YOU to determine 'need'?

Research indicates that the majority of abortions are to women who already have children, and they're making a choice based on the NEEDS of their OTHER CHILDREN...not just frivolously undergoing a procedure because they can...you have NO CLUE how every woman who is faced with an unwanted pregnancy agonizes over what to do...no man does, because hey, if you don't want to carry it and give birth to it...you don't have to! you don't have to carry that child 9 months, bond with it in the womb, struggle to put food on the table and a roof over its head with an absentee father whose only obligation, when the state can find him, is to throw out a check that doesn't even come close to supporting that child...
so until you're a woman, stfu, this isn't your concern

"not having sex prevents pregnancy 100% of the time"

Yeah, but what sort of sad life would that be?

sry guy those were pointed at you lol those were pointed at intrepid look at their recent postings

@noah

where did you get that statistic?

@mellowfellow

I absolutely think women should be able to choose what they can do to their own body. I just happen to believe the child inside her has the same right.

And regarding your medical procedures. You mentioned treatments for 3 diseases as a comparison to a pregnancy? With that logic cancer is only a bad thing if you don't want it.

it was their lack of responsibility to use a condom/abstinance, they should be responsibile for their actions, it's not anybody else's responsibility.

And having an abortion in response to an unwanted pregnancy is the responsible action for some people.

If I screw up is it "responsible" to be resigned and deal with the repercussions, or to try to resolve the issue?

Lol, whoaaaaa zt, pull off your nits, they're picking me to death. C'mon, you and everyone else knows the point I was making. Man, a cancer is only a bad thing if it's not wanted, lol. So then, a baby is a bad thing only if it's not wanted, right? Well, evidently a lot of babies are bad things because we find them thrown in dumpsters, like garbage. Children are left alone, free to roam on their own so they must be bad things, they're not really wanted. How much simpler, and I believe in keeping things simple, if abortion is just done. There is, however, a sensitivity issue in advertising, like, "If you don't want to have your baby come to us, we'll scoop it out for you." Personally I think having babies, having children is a blessing and does much to cement a marriage, but, for some it can also be a curse. Abortion is like suicide, for some it's a way out, so, who am I or anyone else to judge?

The rigidfrigids strikes again trying to rigidly impose their religiousity T'rightuscon views on others who do not believe or want to believe what they do. They live in their own frigid- cold- world of abstainance and want others to join them there because their inflexible views and beliefs are right and everyone elses views and beliefs are wrong in their eyes.

Thus on could say that they are religiously rigid and frigid and are equally sexually rigid and frigid imo.

But then what is new? Throughout history there have been people of this ilk who have wreaked havoc on the rest of the world's population i.e. the 'ungodly unbelievers' including putting the 'un-godly unbelievers' to death.

Like the good book states.... 'there is nothing new under the sun' and also .. 'not everyone who sayeth Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven'.

At the end of the day the rigidfrigids individually are really powerless, repressed, scared, power hungry, selfish, selfcentered, lacking in human warmth, kindness and forgiveness, attention seekers, who came and clubbed together, then now as a group go about attempting to exert control over others (those who do not share their rigid beliefs and who are not frigid like them) in order to make themselves more significant, less powerless, more noticable and less ignored, feel bigger and better about their otherwise cold, boring, colourless, drab, insecure serferated lives and their serfed lacking in any real family values including those that they preach selves imo.

To those who believe that the fetus has the same right as the woman, can a fetus live ie breathe, ingest nutrients etc on its own outside the uterus?

Peace, love and understanding of other points of view.....

Nothing wrong with advertizing a legal medical service.

As far as the various opinions stated here, none of them have any meaning beyond that opinion of the pregnant woman.

@BZ

OK, for the millionth time, my religious views have no effect on my opinion whatsoever, you can stop using that overused argument now.

@Wherescommonsense

*sigh*, let's see here. Time to bring out the big guns.

Excuse me, guy from Orlando, but who are YOU to determine 'need'?

I'm not determining "need", I'm simply stating that abortion should be a medical treatment, not an alternative for people who have unprotected sex, without knowing the consequences. C'mon, it's time to use the brain that some God gave us, sex without condoms = high chances of pregnancy, why do people get so surprised when they find out they got pregnant after sex, how can they say "it's not fair!!"?

Research indicates that the majority of abortions are to women who already have children, and they're making a choice based on the NEEDS of their OTHER CHILDREN

Well, it goes back once more to responsibility. If the women already has a child, why are they having sex without a condom or contraceptive? If she doesn't want another child, simply use a condom when having sex, it's not rocket science, it's common sense.

you have NO CLUE how every woman who is faced with an unwanted pregnancy agonizes over what to do...no man does, because hey, if you don't want to carry it and give birth to it...you don't have to!

Once more: if they don't want a baby (with the exception of rape victims, who should have the choice of abortion considering they had no choice of using a condom in forced sex), USE A DAMN CONDOM. Isn't it old news that unprotected pregnancy carries a big risk of pregnancy, unless infertile?

you don't have to carry that child 9 months, bond with it in the womb, struggle to put food on the table and a roof over its head with an absentee father whose only obligation, when the state can find him, is to throw out a check that doesn't even come close to supporting that child...

Let me repeat this is another language, as many as possible (pardon me for my use of Google Translate, Spanish and English are my only tongues at the moment)

Si la persona no quiere estar embarazada, use un condón.

Si la personne ne veut pas être enceinte, utilisez un préservatif.

Wenn die Person nicht will, schwanger zu sein, ein Kondom benutzen.

Se la persona non vuole essere incinta, usare il preservativo.

so until you're a woman, stfu, this isn't your concern

Ooohh, a command over Newsvine, and the use of a profanity (shut the f*** up) how scary. It isn't much of my concern, but c'mon, it's way too into the modern age to lack common sense.

So far my friend, all your arguments are being shot down by the same old argument I'm using.

It's like putting my hand on a hot stove, it's going to burn, and I am old enough to know that it will burn.

On the note, so far, I'm pretty accepting of other's opinions, I see no reason why you guys should be burning your livers by insulting me for no valid reason.

I will address this once, seeing as you guys are old enough to quit this child's play and fingerpointing/face making, if you want a smart, good and intelligent conversion, respect me, I've barely used an insult.

I'd really appreciate it if you guys would stop accusing me of being a zealot, after the control of a female's body. I'm not using religion, an ambitious attitude or anything like that, so stop using those cheap "oh, religion has only done harm" and "you just hate women" arguments, none of those reflect me at the slightest bit.

I'm stating my opinion, and my reasons to have it. Do the same, without insults.

A few comments I've seen:

guy from orlando
I personally think abortion should be a medical treatment for those who's lives
are endangered, or rape victims, not as open as a choice like a meal, or shoes,

Swagganaut
"not having sex prevents pregnancy 100% of the time!!! anytime someone gets an abortion for other than legit medical reason they are doing it to shirk any responsibilities for their decisions."

guy from orlando

"The whole point is that abortion should be solely a medical treatment, not an open service for whoever wants one. It's about who NEEDS one."

Noah R
No form of birth control is 100% effective. It's entirely possible (and happens quite often) to become pregnant despite taking all available precautions.

So To All: ever notice how there is no PRO-ABORTION group in our (USA) country? I'm serious. Yes, there is "Pro-choice," but there's no "pro-abortion" group. NO ONE is pro-abortion. Get over it!

What is it about the word "choice" that so many refuse to understand/accept?

A woman is not an incubator.

Every woman has the choice not to have an abortion. Repeat, NOT TO HAVE AN ABORTION. I have never heard of any group (except pro-Eugenics) protesting that a woman should have an abortion. So to all you l say there is no "pro-" v "anti-" abortion... only the question of "must/should" v "need/want."

My rant is done.

btw, my last (real) sentence was intentionally vague/contradictory/"huh?" -- as I imagine every woman's decision is about abortion.

Such is the world.

Of course there is no pro-abortion group, there shouldn't be one, and there shouldn't be anti-Abortion groups.

Abortion is a medical treatment, and should be existent for that sole purpose, and in result, there should not be any stances against a medical treatment, only towards medical treatments used when responsibility was neglected.

Like women currently have the choice to get an abortion, even though the pregnancy provides no extreme medical threat to the child or women, they too have the choice to use a condom during sex, that is the whole point of this thread.

It's not about the choice in the clinic, it's about the choice in the bed, and the consequences of it.

I'm not trying to spread any religious beliefs, nor am I trying to start some anti-women campaign, like most radical secularists claim I am doing.

guy from orlando - I'm very strong pro-choice - but I also think you are being very reasonable.And I know there are unreasonable people on both sides of the fence.Mores the shame,because then we can never join forces on the parts we might both agree on.Some of your statements I don't agree - but a lot of it I do. We need to have the idea of "responsible sex" be one where each partner is making sure they do something to prevent pregnancy if they do want to take the responsibility of raising a child.(and this issue has nothing to do with for or against abortion - this issue is responsibility in sex). I have always told my college age son - I don't care if the female says she's using birth control - (isn't that the famous last words some women have said!) - you use condoms.

I'm someones father.

I had to experience the PAIN of abortion for my daughter.

"Preach" all you want. (I'm biting my tongue)

It is NOT a "woman alone" thing. It's a family thing. And it's a BIG thing.

No woman wants to have an abortion. Some may need it and some may choose it, but no girl/woman WANTS to have an abortion.

.... sorry if you don't/can't understand.

Unfortunately in some States, pregnancy and sexual disease prevention is not allowed to be taught in public or some church schools.

In some schools only abstainance is taught.

Some kids seem to believe that by not having vg sex one is practicing abstainance.

guy from orlando & Katheryn Brandy,

OK...

We agree there is no "pro-abortion" group. Thank you.

THERE IS NO PRO-ABORTION GROUP.

To that end, please stop fighting. It doesn't help anyone.

Don't most established religions (even before Judaism) proclaim "the golden rule"?

guy from orlando,

All anyone (oops... my bad!) asks for is intelligent debate. (ha ha!).

Agree/disagree -- I'm beginning to think I'm on the wrong site.

THANK YOU, Moderator!

I knew I was rambling....

Boris, a few comments ago you stated that we all agree; "There is no pro-abortion group." There IS a pro-abortion group, the majority of people are the pro-abortion group and have pressured elected representatives to make it legal in America. Now the movement is to reverse that, make abortion illegal and if the majority of the people agree, so be it. Well, fortunately, aside from all the petty and ego-tripping comments, logic and reason will dominate and have precedence over emotionalism. Abortion ought to remain legal, a medical procedure that only the pregnant woman can make a choice about. The choice can be because of rape, incest, or life-threatening, etc. reasons, and, it can be because the woman decides; "Hey, I just don't want to have a baby, I'm not ready emotionally or financially to have a baby." Good enough, it should always be her choice and the choice is nobody else's business. "Yeah, but it affects loved ones around the pregnant woman." So what? Is a woman condemned to a life she doesn't want just to satisfy some morality that a "Loved one" has? Man, talk about selfish; "You must not have a abortion because it will make me unhappy, you must keep me happy by living according to MY moral dictates." Ok, lol, it can also go the other way. A woman not wanting to have a baby because it will interfere with her life is also selfish, but, it's a matter of selfish vs selfless. No one should be made to feel that he must live his life to satisfy the demands of another.

Boris, tell me what is it that I don't understand?The only thing that I don't understand is your accusations, can you explain to me what I don't understand about abortion?

You can use satire as much as your heart desires, but if you are going to imply things, at least tell me.

C'mon guys, stay with me, putting on a condom during sex, like a responsible adult isn't rocket science.

What about that is so hard to understand? If you don't want a baby, use a condom or abstain! Non-medical abortion isn't a show of responsibility, it's a consequence of not being responsible in the first place.

BORIS!! I have stated that Iam very pro-choice.I think it is a sure bet Guy from Orlando and I are on opposite sides of this issue. But I hate to see someone who is really trying to be civil about this discussion(which I think Guy is trying to be) beaten down as though he were being a rabid rabblerouser.

"To that end, please stop fighting. It doesn't help anyone." I hope it didn't appear I was dissing the guy. I really didn't mean to.

@guy from orlando

At least 1/3 of sex education curriculums in America can be described as abstinence-only. Contraceptives are never discussed. The idea is that discussing safe sex and contraceptives may encourage people to have sex. Studies have shown that abstinence-only programs do not work.

Unless you're going to take my word for it, do some research on sex ed programs. There's a ponderous amount of research done on the subject.

This paper explains the situation neatly: The Content of Federally Funded Abstinence-only Education Program.

This is the government's own investigation into the program.

It's not about wheter they learn about condoms or not, condoms are avaible in the open market, most of them in the fronts of gas station registers.

The opposite of Pro-life is NOT Pro-abortion.

Anyone is is "PRO-abortion" is a nutjob -- no one wants to kill... not even a potential life. I think that sums up what I said.

There are lots of legitimate reasons for abortion. The one illegitimate reason I know is, "I'm a man and I say so!"

"Genocide?" Hyperbole much?

This is the reason nobody takes the anti-abortion movement seriously. It's also the reason the anti-abortion movement has turned to intimidation, violence, and domestic terrorism to achieve its goals.

It won't matter. There could be millions of Mussies and there will still be 1000 white people in charge of them due to the differences in intelligence. Keep them very religious and you can also keep them very, very stupid.

IMNO: Speaking of stupid there pal......

Who created the numeric system that the entire world uses today?

Why don't you try to get a clue, you're embarrassing yourself but lack the intellectual capacity to know it.

Toasty--

It's only hyperbole if you are on one side of the argument. It is an argument that will probably never be resolved, because the two sides cannot agree about when life begins. If you believe that life begins at conception, then abortion is murder and the degree to which it is practiced in this country would probably qualify as genocide. If you believe that life begins at birth, then abortion is similar to clipping your toenails. Please note that I am not advocating for either side in this comment.

Toasty-Exactly.

Toasty,

What's the growth in the native Brit population compared to the British Muslim population? I believe you will find that one is much higher than the other. In da End there can be just One. LOL!

PS; It ain't to pretty for the Copts in Egypt. I expect the Christian refuges in Syria will have a life changin experience after Syria becomes democratic. LOL!

Are there any abortions by Muslim women in Islamic Paradises? LOL!

you do know the ends of our nails are dead cells right? are you saying a fetus is just like a nail clipping? there is more risk than a hangnail when someone gets an abortion, to think its just a simple thing is and understatement.

Swagg, is it ok to cut out a cancer, a mass of tissue that grows feeding on the host and eventually causing death? What is a fetus but a mass of cells feeding on the host, affecting physically and mentally the host and perhaps causing death? And, my wife and I had four children and at no time did we ever contemplate abortion, but that was our feeling and other couples should be free to contemplate, choose, abortion if they choose too. It's nobody's business but theirs.

FYI Swag...just so you know
back in the 80s, Reagan charged then Surgeon General C Everett Koop with researching the safety of abortions, their belief was that we could outlaw them with the data that it's less safe than carrying a child to term...
What happened, in fact, was just the opposite...back in the day when scientists actually did research objectively instead of to suit an agenda, and they found that it's SAFER to have an abortion than to carry a child to term...

so...gosh...how do you like the taste of that shoe leather, buddy?

Seems to me that the British really don't care what you think. Ever wonder why?

Agree with you, ronald f. I'm so tired of other people's religious outlooks governing my life. What a backwards country we've become.

Abortion is a personal choice - and should not be up to someone who believes in an invisible being in the clouds.

....and what things should be left to those who believe in nothing, except situational ethics?

To spider 737231 - EVERYTHING !!

Ronald

They aren't smarter they are more stupid , they should be using contraceptives and condoms instead abortion. We are smarter than them. But if you think that is smarter I don't judge you.

OSKAR: Oh really? We're smarter than they are? Is that why the Right in this country not only wants to make abortion illegegal but dramatically restrict BIRTH CONTROL AT THE SAME TIME???

The Right hates abortion so they want to do away with birth control. Brilliant, eh?

your sure right its a personal choice!!! you personally are giving up any responsibilities and consequence for creating another life by intentionally killing it for ones own selfish reasons (except legit medical reasons) and its all a-okay by the government, but hey if say someone wanted to kill just themselves now that would be a wrong and we would need to lock you up.

"Seems to me that the British are a thousand times smarter than Americans in this instance/"

if killing fetuses is a sign of smartness then i guess im a dumb fk.

ronald f: Let me just say that it's sad your mother didn't abort you, the world would be better off without you. How you can get excited about killing babies is beyond conprehension? All life is precious and you only get one shot at it. All those babies aborted deserved a life, and don't give me that crap about women's rights either. One more sad fact, it's way easier to get a abortion than it is to execute a murderer in Britain.

300m says "One more sad fact, it's way easier to get a abortion than it is to execute a murderer in Britain." 300m also says "All life is precious".

Well, which is it? You moralistic pseudo-preachers all seem to think that a bunch of cells should not be "killed", but you get your knickers tied in a knot because some countries don't have a death penalty.

England and Continental Europe far outstrip the US culturally and in critical thinking. There is no point of bringing unwanted children into a world which already has population problems and diminished resources. Good for England!

For those people who say "well they should have used birth control", I say well maybe they did and for whatever reason that product or protection failed and they have the choice of abortion as an option.

I'm pro choice and I vote.

300m,

A fetus is not a baby until 22 weeks. At 22 weeks they become viable. A fetus that is not viable is not a baby it is a parasite in both behavior and definition. That and by law fetuses have no rights. Babies are not considered to be turely "alive" and able to obtain rights until they are born. It kind of defeats the legal stance of your 'abortion is murder' argument.

Now abortions after 22 weeks without medical cause are murder, I agree with that because again they are usually viable at the 22 week mark; but anytime before that the mother has the right to do what she wants because she has rights while the fetus doesn't.

I do not get why this is so hard for you abortion haters to grasp. Life is not life, there are many different forms of like and a fetus is a life form that, until it reaches a certain developmental stage, is just a parasite, like a tape worm, feeding off of the host and growing.

It is a complex subject with gray areas everywhere, it is not black and white like you are trying to paint it:

Babies have no rights until they are born

Fetuses become viable at the 22 week marker

Before 22 weeks abortions are completely legal with or without cause

Since the fetus is viable after 22 weeks, abortions not needed because of serious medical issues or a proper medical cause can be considered murder since the fetus could be delivered successfully.

At 22 weeks there is a 50% survival rate, basically whether the delivered baby lives or dies is a coin toss.

Facts are facts, religious ideology does not have any affect on the law.

Oh and to short circuit the "murderers who kill pregnant women get two murder counts" argument; that is because it was not the mother's choice to abort the baby, it was caused by an outside force at is seen as an act against her will, thus double murder charge.

As others have said contraception is thus far not 100% effective; even the morning after pill does not work 100% of the time. Other times there are mistakes like condom breaks or forgotten pills.

All those babies aborted deserved a life,

What about the 70% of estimated fertilization's that spontaneously miscarry? Why stop at fetuses, maybe we should require every egg to be nurtured into a baby? And ejaculation without a purpose if mass genocide.

Stupid pro lifers cannot differentiate between a first trimester fetus and a baby.

On another note, I don't see why ANY medical procedures/pharmaceuticals are advertised... the demand is static, and I see this as a waste of funds in an already bloated industry.

A lot was said about a fetus being a life form. Right, it is a life form because life as we know it takes in nourishment, it grows, it reacts to stimuli, it voids. Well, so do harmful bacteria. Well, anyway, except for a select few the topic is like making a mountain out of a molehill, and, some feel so strongly about pro-life they'll use any argument to bolster their position. For the Bible oriented folks God said to multiply, ok, it's cool. But, we have done that and we are suffering with over-population now. Will God now condemn us because we use our God-given intellect to solve the problem? By withholding ejaculation, by using the Pill, by using other means we try to control the number of babies born. So, we also use abortion, a means that is not new to mankind. Women have been aborting for as long as they've been having babies. Why the problem with advertising, let women know what's available, some medical prodedure besides sitting in a bathtub and jabbing themselves with wire coat-hangers. Man, I have two grown daughters and one grown grand daughter, I'd much rather they answered a medical services ad if they wanted to abort than go the coat-hanger or the backroom butcher route.

Who cares about anti-lifers or pro-lifers, to prevent all of these fetuses going into abortion, just use a damn condom, its not rocket science!

Time to grow up and accept the consequences of an action you could have easily prevented.

You know, you claim over and over again that the basis for your opinion is not religious, but your comment above :

Time to grow up and accept the consequences of an action you could have easily prevented.

shows the same disregard for real world facts as religious thinking does.

Life and other stuff happens and very little of it has to do with with personal control. Yet you make that the focus of your argument and never bother to explain the basis for your anti-abortion sentiments, why do you care whether someone else chooses to abort even if the basis for the decision is personal rather than medical?

Geowil said it best, really.

I'll believe in anti-abortion when the pro-lifers start mass adopting from the orphanages all these children end up going to. Abortion is a viable option, particularly when doing otherwise creates an undue burden on the mother or others.

And the moment you bring up God to support your argument regarding abortion, you lose.

our country has turned into a piece of sh.it just like most of the world

I agree Surviving Lisfranc.. So get the fk out!

eh F U gregory! I love U.S.A. you gumba. I talking about morals. Morals have gone to crap= way of live will be crap. I won't ever leave this country I actually enjoy life you gaywad

Tommy, very few kids aged ten don't know about sex. My 8th grade class had sex education, and, lol, it wasn't with anatomically correct dolls that so many anti sex-education folks claimed. Children at an earlier age than we suspect know how babies are "Made." I knew that my daughters knew it, so, our talk about sex was more like; "When you decide to have sex remember one thing; You are a equal partner and you have the right to get as good as you give." Horrors, when some friends heard that they immediately knee-jerked; "You are telling your children that it's ok to have sex!" Well, they didn't hear the whole spiel, lol. Anyway, my daughters dated and none of them became pregnant and neither has my grand daughter who is in college. Good sex education is not about abstaining, hell, you might as well try and stop the rain from falling. It's about commitment and responsibility and I don't mean carrying a baby to term and giving birth. I mean being committed to yourself, being responsible for yourself and to not get into a situation that you will probably regret all your life. There are a lot of ways to keep from getting pregnant and surprising to many, kids are aware of them. But, if it happens and you don't want the child, abort. If that's selfish, so be it. It's better than the opposite of selfish; Selfless. I hoped that my daughters thought more of themselves than to commit themselves to a life that they didn't want.

Mellofello - I have to laugh - when my son went through sex ed at school they taught the kids the condoms can fail so just don't do it theory. Thankfully I gave my son my take rather than rely on the school - just two rules -no means no and if you do it -cover it. He's in college and as far as this mom "knows" he and his little girlfriend are abstaining.(yeah!!) I read about a study awhile back that said the "abstain till you marry" method produced kids who did abstain longer, but when they did have sex (and yeah,most of them did before they got married) they did not use condoms (or any contraceptive).

Katheryn, I think it all comes down to whether or not a child is intellectually able to conceive of consequences. I taught, well, tried to teach, my kids to think for themselves, to put their future happiness first and to not let the emotion of the moment dictate. Yeah, right, lol. Like it's been said; "A stiff dick has no conscience." Well, from the way my two girls and two boys came out the effort was worth it. They are better people for it. Lol, and, that's my selfish stance.

Bravo. I applaud your method. So far, my son seems to be very responsible - but lord,where hormones are concerned...who knows?!

Yeah, hormones rule. For a few years anyway and that's why I, at 70, quote the late Martin Luther King; "Free at last, free at last, thankgodalmighty I'm free at last."

:)

JIM: Right you are. They are always ahead of us. When was the last time you heard of abortion coming under attack in Italy, THE HOME OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH for crying outloud.

We live in an embarrassing provincial country, still clinging to many supersticions from the 17th Century, brought to this continent by the Puritans.

what does religion and abortion have to do with each other? so without religion i guess its okay to just kill what you dont want right? so are you the type of person who will shirk any responsibilities in protecting ones self from becoming pregnant and opt to kill what you fail to prevent in order for you to go about your "normal" life. how can anyone make excuses for killing something they didnt want and failed to prevent. one does not need to be religious to see that killing something in cold-blood is always wrong. (legit medical reasons only answer)

probably bc they actually follow their religious doctrines.. you guys are bat@!$%# retarded

Most people who rant against abortion consider them conservatives...christian or otherwise...
to answer your question about what religion and abortion have to do with one another...

Right J.J. in Europe they don't try to ram religion down one's throat, because, Europe has a history of regimented society with a State Church, depending on the geography. One of the biggest hurdles to the unification of the Prussian states was a religious one and it took a war with Austria, a Catholic dominated nation, to achieve that unification, because the Prussian area was Protestant. Even today people are devout members of their state Church, and, any interlopers like missionaries from America, Baptists, etc., were soon made to feel unwelcome. So, European nations don't ram religion down throats, people are already members of the approved church, but, lol, all other religious outfits are not welcome. Well, they go anyway and when they get a position they do their own brand of religious ramming, lol. One thing that missionaries are quick to point out is the Bible passage about rendering to Caeser was is Caesers, to obey and honor those in authority over you. So, no threat to the State.

Sorry, there ain't any "Moderate Conservatives" left in this world. Your party had them exterminated. I take it you have not been watching primaries. These clowns falling over themselves trying to prove each is more conservative than the other.

I'm hardly the first to make the observation that were Reagen here today, he would not qualify for your party's nomination. The same is true of Gerald Ford, Nixon, Rockefeller and numerous others.

Your party claims to hate "Big Government" and yet under Bush (and Reagan) the size of our government grew dramaticaly. And now they want to get into everyones bedrooms. Your party LOVES BIG GOVERNMENT and 8 years of that numbskull Dubya proved it beyond any doubt. They can't wait to get into people's sex lives and prove it every time they open their mouths.

how big did gov get under obama!!!!(100% debt to gdp). stop with the one-sided bias opinions, we all see you are a rabid bush-basher without any thought to it. both parties are crap and if u cant see that then your crap along with them.

so i guess its okay to kill what you dont want right? personal choice right? so can i go around killing people cause i deem myself to be their maker? can i kill my dogs because i dont want them? im all for choice but with choices can come consequence. what you want is choices for you with no consequence. whats the difference between killing a unborn fetus or another life form?

swag, you need to go look at how big gov got under Bush2...then come back and blame obama...

Also Swag, part of the problem is that we cut taxes during two wars. The money that paid for those wars, and now their interest, were put onto the budget by Obama. Bush successfully kept their off of the Government's budget and effectively fought those wars with America's credit card.

The recession has also kept a lot of tax dollars out of the system as people either become unemployed, sign up for welfare, or fall below the 'taxable' threshold.

Not everything is as Fox or Rush or Ed claim them to be; our debt issues are not just caused by Obama, they are caused by the Bush Tax Cuts, the recession, the wars, actions taken by both Presidents, and by the 112th 'do nothing' Congress.

Changing the political party at the top is not going to make things magically better because the President does not have the power to fix things; that lies with Congress.

If Congress gets off their asses, stops trying to get Obama out of office, catering to the lobbyists, and actually start doing their jobs we would make more progress then under 12 years of any president.

whats the difference between killing a unborn fetus or another life form?

You mean like slaughtering a calf to turn it into veal?

It's weird how some people think it's completely natural to mimic nature and kill for food, but wrong to mimic nature when it produces spontaneous abortions, killing the fetus for multiple reasons.

The added ingredient which drives the anti-abortion stance is that human life is somehow special or exceptional compared to other life forms.

I see that kind of thinking as false as the concept of Manifest Destiny which prompted people to assume that the United States is granted an exceptional status, not by its workings, but rather through some supernatural "blessing"; which rationalized all sorts of ugly scenarios with folk who were already residing here.

Is it worth it to argue with folks who base their precepts on such magical thinking? Probably not...it's probably better just to keep them away from the powers to legislate.

Culheath, just a thought about "Manifest destiny." I don't think it had any religious foundation, America at the time was surrounded by empty country, except for the indigenous Native Americans. Future looking folks like President Jefferson swung a deal and bought some land, the "Lousiana Purchase." He sent explorers out to survey and explore America's new holdings. The land to the West was open for the taking and America took it, all the way to the Pacific Coast. Along the way America fought a war with Mexico and got more land. Also along the way America took ancestral, some claim, land away from the Native Americans so that settlement could happen, and, built transcontinental RR's across our continent. Because, it was the manifest destiny of America to expand West. Thanks to that expansion America became a industrial and military power in that world. Well, anyway, that's my perception of what "Manifest Destiny" was. How that ties in with the present topic, I don't know.

Culheath, just a thought about "Manifest destiny." I don't think it had any religious foundation,

Actually, per wiki:

Journalist John L. O'Sullivan, an influential advocate for Jacksonian democracy, wrote an article in 1839 which, while not using the term "Manifest Destiny", did predict a "divine destiny" for the United States based upon values such as equality, rights of conscience, and personal enfranchisement-- "to establish on earth the moral dignity and salvation of man". This destiny was not explicitly territorial, but O'Sullivan predicted that the United States would be one of a "Union of many Republics" sharing those values.

Six years later O'Sullivan wrote another essay which first used the phrase Manifest Destiny.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny

How that ties in with the present topic, I don't know.

It uses the same magical thinking that gives rise to both human and American exceptionalism; that a human fetus is somehow intrinsically divine.

Sure, I'll accept that, but every national leader(s) has said that America is under the authority and protection of God, and that America is a divine tool of God. Well, anyway, I was wrong; It was Jackson and not Jefferson who orchestrated the Louisiana Purchase. I think, lol. Well, one of those guys did it. Manifest Destiny might have been the main reason that the government didn't prevent volunteers from going to the Mexican state of Texas to aid in the rebellion against Mexico there, it knew that Texas would become one of our states if we had enough people there after the rebellion to opt for American statehood. Man, they must have worked hard on that since Texas was a nation for about six years.

MODERATE: Then please explain why so many on the Right are attempting to restrict birth control, ban sex ed in public schools, create as many barriers as possible for young people to have access to sexual knowledge, and prevent woman from having access to reproductive health care as in the case of Planned Parenthood???

dont get what? that having sex can lead to pregnancy? that being pregnant means creating another life form? whats not to get? i think its is people like you who do not "get it", you seem to have a lack of understanding about religion and life in general. must be nice to justify killing of un-wanted life for ones selfish needs.

Intrepid1 ~ Thank you for both your posts... well said!

I am dubious about the youth being restricted from sexual education. You can't turn your head right or left w/o seeing sex crammed down your throat.

Seeing/hearing about sex is not educating young people about things like the consquences of sex. Not just pregnancy, but std's as well. It also doesn't teach them how to not get pregnant in the first place. You see sex acts on tv, but you don't see birth control. There's a difference between exposure and education.

Excellent point kjmabe!

I don't get why so many people are piling up on moderate, he is saying one of the most intelligent things so far in this comment wall.

Use a condom or accept the consequences, putting a condom on isn't rocket science.

I don't know any better alternative or any other way to say it more clearly. If you can tell me something better, please do tell.

I don't care how reasonable you are - I've noticed on these forums, the minute anyone says conservative or liberal - it's like chum to sharks - the message gets lost in the feeding frenzy! And here's the funny thing - my interpretation on what Moderate is saying is that they are for contraceptives to prevent pregnancy -ergo,abortions ...... but I also got that Moderate thinks government should stay out of the decision.(which I agree with - it's my body and my choice).

I don't pay much attention to the "Ganging up." Some folks, as in chat rooms, only come for confrontation and argument. Someone makes a comment, and if it appears illogical I shoot off my comment, lol. What does bug me is when someone constantly says the same thing, over and over. I see it as an intent to get a argument going, lol. Anyway, hey, the 'Net is for everyone, right? I've been told that I'm "Socially challenged." Lol, meaning that I don't discern between common online bickering and attempts to start fights. Well, I grew up with the attitude that if someone cracks wise, smart-mouths, well, it has to be backed up, and, I've had some tell me, online, that I need my ass kicked. Cool, I've met a few at rest stops, Interstates where I live here in TN. I figure, hey, if you say it, then do it.

john your a dumbas.s. I never see religious commercials on tv, not that i would like to. What I see on tv is commercials for businesses who suck and HAVE to advertise because they fallin behind; I also have seen UFC made some new deals with FUEL TV and FX which is bs; dana white needs a stick rammed up his butt and out the mouth screw that guy

Surviving, what country do you live in? I see religious advertising all the time while flicking channels with the 700 club and other fake christian shows too numerous to count. I am not even including the GOP debates where half their time is spent on insulting our intelligence by repeating they are christians. Maybe you are so dumb, you don't know you have already been dumbed down.

I watch normal people channels guy. I know our whole country has been dumbed down too. . you just be numbed down to the bone duda

Don't know what channels you've been watching but every day I see commercials by religious organizations on tv. Latest is one for Christian singles.

Christian singles, mormons, businesses that advertise using the little fishy symbol as somehow being superior to non-fishy businesses, the megachurches, all the televangelists, Every single Republican candidate flies their so-called morals flag (until they get busted banging a mistress, soliciting sex in the bathroom, or taking payoffs...wait...whoring for money is ok so nm)

lots of religious advertising...lots of it

lol I forgot about mormons.. I don't really count them as religion. They kinda like the jihads to me haha.. but yea I guess I forgot that I used to see christian singles commercials haha, so lame. I suppose I don't watch the right channels to see christian commercials tho. I basically watch sports and that is about all I watch. Throw animal planet in the mix sometimes ha.

John, if you're seeing commercials for the 700 Club it's because you've surfed your way to the religious channel. It's not like they're advertising that stuff on CBS.

Lol, good luck on that one John. Athiest preaching to oppose Christian preaching on Sunday morning TV? Well, cool, a Athiest church vs a Christian church. The thing is, atheism is as much a religion as any of the usual ones that have a foundation in a belief in God. People are as religiously ridgid in their belief that there is no God as religious folks are in their belief that there is a God. Man, there are as many Athiest chapters promoting the Athiest view as there are churches promoting the God view. And, what is the one point, one thing that they can do battle over? Abortion.

Like mellowfello said, both atheism and christianity are in the same intellectual rank.

Both are unsupported theories on the afterlife, I don't see how any atheist/theist with a screwed-on head can claim to know the answer to a question that will never be fully answered.

Guy, so, what is the usual reply to that? "You sinners will find out when you die and are cast into hell, so, why take that chance? Believe, and do as we say as you live in the NOW." A few times, face to face, I've been asked what I believe, in God or no God. Well, according to Scripture God created all that we see and know around us, from nothing. Cool, and science says almost the same thing, all that is around us evolved from a pinpoint of energy, the "Big bang." Man, either way, it boggles the mind and that's why religious folks say, "Just believe, have faith." I guess Science says, "Just hang loose, we're working on more proof." Anyway, lol, my answer to the question about what I believe about God is simple; "What I personally believe is none of your damn business." Hey, man, I would love to hear some presidential candidate, when asked, reply with that one. Lol, that alone might get my vote.

wow what lies. so killing of an un-wanted life is civil rights? so much evil.

SWAGG: So much ignorance & stupidity.

lol thx for showing who you trully are. ill count you as a person who has no problem killing others, personal choice right!!!!

SWAGG: By all means, put me down.

Think I'll go a murder a few babies now, just to spite you.

Have a nice day.

"put you down", as in insult? dont think i did that even though you did call me stupid. i just went by your writings that you condone killing of unwanted life. i figured you the type of person who does no like to be held responsible for your actions so you find the easy way out. personal choice right!!!! what people like you want is choices without consequence.

actually, what you fail to grasp in your tiny little world is that those of us who are pro-choice are not pro-abortion...a difficult concept for you to grasp, I know...but try to follow me
We believe that we don't have the right to control another person's body, in the same manner as we don't have the right to take you out and neuter you so you can't pass on your stupidity to your offspring, or walk up and knee cap you...the only person who can make decisions about their own body is the individual...

having said that, I don't see you offering to support the mothers and their children, if you're part of the religious right, you're also wanting smaller government, reducing access to birth control, cutting programs that provide a social safety net, and abstinence only education which leads to much higher pregnancy rates, particularly in teens...

no, you're only concerned with that egg n sperm, and after that you don't really give a crap what kind of suffering the fetus/child endures...

It's a medical procedure, Swag, and nobody has the right to tell a woman that she can't have it done to herself.

LORI: Then why is the Right doing everything in their power to make birth control less accessible to woman??? Why do they deny sex ed to high school kids???

It's called HYPOCRISY

Lor62, there are two forms of sex ed in American schools: comprehensive ("abstinence plus") and abstinence-only. A 2002 Kaiser Family Foundation study found that only 58% of secondary school principals describe their sex ed cirriculum as comprehensive. In abstinence-only education, no information about contraceptives or birth control in any form is provided.

for the people who are trying to defund Planned Parenthood...

are you really so damned stupid that you are incapable of grasping the problem that, if you defund the number one contraceptive distributor to low income women and men, that you will, in effect, be RAISING the number of abortions being sought? Increasing the need for food stamps, welfare, and other social services? increasing the population of low income children who, in turn, continue the cycle of neglect, under performance in school, and so on? are you really that dense?

Haha nicely done brah

Ha ha ha ha.... (click no value)

Greg you are a fag dude.

If I actually tried to debate, which I don't cuz I'd win, I would mess you up big man.

Greg= big gay faggot

Why???? Why don't you ask Rick Santorum who if elected president wants to ban all forms of birth control?? It's not "natural" he says.

Why is the GOP trying to kill off Planned Parenthood which provides health care to millions of low income woman. 98% of the services they offer have NOTHING to do with abortion. And the Right wants to put them out of business. And then you'll whine and bitch about too many abortions taking place. Funny, huh???

Santorum's wife underwent an abortion...just sayin...

Why can't the people just use birth control in the first place it just dosent make sense if someone has sex they can just use birth control pills

1) The pill costs nearly nothing (they are free in some clinics), but an abortion costs hundreds of dollars.

2) An abortion is way safter than bringing a pregnancy to term, but it is still an operation with risks and sometimes recovery time needed.

3) An abortion is far more of an inconvenience than taking a pill.

4) An abortion requires you to expose yourself to a stranger, maybe suffer social stigma, and can lead to feelings of guilt.

It seems to me that people are not skipping birth control thinking that they can just get an abortion instead. Abortions are a last resort when (usually) other options have been exhausted.

And with god, ingnorance and blind superstition are mandatory.

And with God, nothing is permitted. If you don't like abortion, don't have one. Let other people live how they want to.

@ INTREPID 1: Well-said, sir! :)

slick rick you make me sick

Abortion = Holocaust

religions = myths

So, Greg, because you don't believe in God, murder's ok? Why not go around murdering people then?

Greg= faggot.

Go back to your moms cooter where u came from so I can murder you

Murder is not ok, but I don't need an invisible man in the sky to tell me that.

When it becomes a viable human that can live and breathe on it's own, then killing it is murder... roughly at 6 months I think.

fights

because you don't believe in God, murder's ok? Why not go around murdering people then?

In the wild do social animals go around and irrationally kill each other? No, social animals like ourselves form structured communities. Look at ants and elephants.

I suppose you believe that as social animals in the wild don’t have genocidal urges is because they worship some sort of God. Heaven forbid if that turned out to be Allah. Can you image what some Right wing Christians would do? Ah Ha - maybe that’s what happened to the buffalo.

NC, I sure hate to interupt but abortion is not murder. Murder is a legal term and the Supreme Court has ruled that abortion is not murder. The Supreme Court by the way is the sole authority in Constitution interpretation. Well, that ruling may change if enough people can get it changed but the majority of people still accept abortion as legal and valid. I said once in a comment that people should mind their own business, live their lives as they please and allow others to do the same, if, what they are doing is legal. If people think abortion is wrong, well, don't do it.

No man has the right to tell a woman what to do about reproduction and with her body until all men can get pregnant.

I think if you can get pass the religious nut nutieness and realize that we are no better or significant that any other life it becomes easier to rationalize.

Greg= big Faggot

Surviving Lisfranc = reported

And an ad hominem idiot.

Blah Blah Blah mumble

Why is it only the 'stupid teenage girls'? Why not the stupid teenage boys as well? It takes 2 to make a baby, and they don't have to be teenagers to do so. I was 26 when i became the mother of a 'bastard'. Your rant is just that; nothing but a rant. Thanks for adding nothing.

Luke, just a thought aside from the topic; If the British are so much smarter then why weren't they able to hang onto the colonies?

Ok Brendan, so, some argue that abortion is immoral and some argue that it's necessary. Why should anyone be arguing one way or the other since it's none of their business? There is no reason for guidelines, and no reason to set criteria other than the simple reason being that a woman may just not want the baby. If a woman gets pregnant and the maternal urge is strong enough to carry the baby to term, well, there are a lot of childless couples that will and want to adopt.

Lol, sure Lady Cat, it takes two to make a baby, and when "It" came out of the pants it was the girl; "Yeah, yeah, put that thing right here!"

True, I think everyone would be very happy if abortions never happened because there was no need for one, but until that day comes I respect a woman's choice in the matter.

Educate! It's always educate. Educate about what? Everone knows from age 13 about sex and about contraceptives. Are you talking about moral education? That's a exercise in futility, especially the supposed sexual immorality that is practiced throughout the world. There's probably only one way to stop abortion and that is for every mother and father to love their children and teach them recognition of and respect for self. And, lol, a sense of personal pride, to be too proud to join oneself physically with just anyone.

She lied, I'm sure she was getting plenty from Joseph.

300M: All life is precious. Good, them I'm sure you won't object to paying more in taxes to support all those "Welfare Queens" who have 14 children, right? You won't object to providing medical care for all those children born out of ignorance or accident. Oh, yes you will. It's your crowd that bitches about "Big Government" incessantly and wants to do away with food stamps, welfare, free medical care and all the rest.

The vast majority of people who claim to be "pro life" are only concerned about a "baby" from conception to birth. A nanosecond after that infant is born you would just as soon turn your back on it. The word for this mentality is HYPOCRISY, got that???

You don't approve of abortion than I recommend that you not have one. Stay the hell out of my bedroom, doctor's office and anything else that deals with my private life. Your folks are supposedly for "smal government" but when it suits your needs, you have no problem with Uncle Same prying into people's private lives. You're the same crowd that 50, 60 years ago opposed any forms of birth control and that today never quits trying to knock off Planned Parenthood which supplies invaluable services to underprivileged woman across the country.

If you possess any intellecltual honestly at all, you just might want to rethink your position.

Intrepid, uhhhh, hate to burst your bubble, but there's a thing called "adoption", and many waiting in line to do it.

Thank you, Intrepid - well said.

However, there are probably quite a few more words in your post than morons like 300m can intellectually digest. That particular moron seems to have coined some sort of nonsense phrase around the "all life is precious" crap and has posted it at least twice. He/she can't come up with much else.

But...thank you for your very well thought-out post.

All life is precious and everything human and animal deserve a chance at it.

How do you feel about the bacteria or virus, do they deserve a chance at it? Every time you shower you kill billions of both just so you won't offend some other human with your natural odors in order that you may get close enough to produce more of your own kind - who will eventually grow up to become those who clamor for the death penalty for abortionists.

Life is precious?

Yea, Ron Paul is the best. He's a blatant bigot, racist, narrow minded little twit as is his son. I suggest you go talk a look at some of the really despicable material he has printed in his own publication bearing his name but now claims that he can't remember or was unaware of these offensive articles appearing in it.

As for parents teaching their children, what about parents who don't??? You're complaining about abortion and in the same breath, you don't want kids to learn about sex and birth control. Is this what passes for logic in your parallel universe? LOL