A bit early to judge, I'd say. Let's wait till we learn more.

Sawyer... what is there to wait for? There is absolutely no reason for a student to carry a weapon to school. NONE ZERO ZILCH.

Pro gun, anti idiots with guns.

Sawyer, while I too will wait to find out the details of this, I agree with Jerry. There is NO reason for a 15yr old to be carrying a gun at all, much less in a Junior high school. I am sorry for his family.

A 15 year old in 8th grade?

Sawyer, I'm pro-gun, but this being middle school I kind of doubt that he had a justifiable reason to be carrying it. Also, officers don't (usually) shoot unless they have a good reason. But then, who knows? I may end p eating crow.

If good students aren't armed, then only the bad students will have guns.

YAY! Less gun control! Less gun control!

He had to of failed a grade. 6 y.o. + 8 yrs. of school = 14 y.o. He was only one yr. behind.

You are more likely to die at the hands of the police than from a terrorist attack.

this is why all kids need to carry guns all the time.. If all the other students had guns then there is no way this would have ever happened [/sarcasm]

come on gun nuts this is what you tell us, if everyone has guns there would be less crime..

Jees...how come every time somebody dies from having easy access to guns, all the crazy liberals come out saying we should have stricter gun regulation. Gawd. It's like that with Iraq too. Just because us right-wing cons wanted an illegal invasion of Iraq that led to the deaths and mutilations of 1000s of Americans, doesn't mean we shouldn't have done it. Jees. Crazy, stupid liberals. pfffff.

This has nothing to do with law abiding citizens like myself owning guns. 15 year olds should not have a gun...period. The kid probably bought the gun from a criminal or stole it from his parents. It should be investigated how he got a hold of the gun and prosecute to the full extent of the law the person who sold/gave it to him. His parents should be held accountable if they did hot secure the weapon. However, instituting strict gun control laws on responsible people like myself is ridiculous. My gun is either on my person under my control or locked in a safe. The good student bad student comment is moronic at best.

Another example of the results of the dissolution of the American family. When I was this kid's age you were considered a coward or a pussy if you had to resort to a weapon to settle your differences. You fought it out with your bare fists. It's an epidemic in this country. No fathers to teach kids right from wrong or how to me a man. The only male role model they have is on video games or TV. WTF do you think you'll get with this recipe?

In the first place you cannot carry a weapon in a school even with a permit. No one has the right to carry at a school except for peace officers.

The student engaged the police with a weapon. This is the result when one chooses to do such an ignorant act. Regardless of your age you cannot act this way and expect to walk away. The responsibility is on the student in this case. He failed.

I live in Colorado. One word: Columbine

Enough said.

mj-1451595

YAY! Less gun control! Less gun control!

I know, why don't we make it illegal for a 15 year old to be in possession of a firearm and make it illegal to carry it into a school?

Cimun Says... "15 year olds should not have a gun...period. The kid probably bought the gun from a criminal or stole it from his parents"

I've been a gun owner since I was eleven years old. They were gifts from my parents. Some parents chose to educate their children about gun safety and responsibility at a young age.

ONCE AGAIN....no statement as to where or how this kid got the gun. was it bought illegally, was it taken from his parents house, was it legally owned and registered to someone? this info is necessary in these articles to keep the anti-gun nuts quiet!

if it was taken from his parents house and legally owned they should be prosecuted for not securing the weapon. if it was taken from his house and not registered they should be prosecuted for illegal weapons posession!

Armed with what? A gun? A knife? A pencil? It doesn't say, so no one should assume that it was a gun.. However, it is TEXAS.

Svenolafson - yes a 15 year old should be in 8th grade. My daughter is in 7th grade and is 13 yrs. old. She missed the cut off to start kindergarten by 1 day and had to wait an entire year to start.

They might make one being all excited with their military tactics and SWAT bozos.

thank God the headline does not read:

"15 Year-old Gunman Kills Police Officer at Texas School"

Someone needs to explain why the teenager could not have been shot in the leg, thigh, hip, arm, hand, shoulder? Who knows maybe the teenager was wanting to commit suicide by cop and all they did was fulfill his wishes. This was not a seasoned terrorist, but a confused and possibly mentally ill child. Do we know, maybe he was being bullied to the point of ending the bully's life? He had a handgun, not an arsenal. Since the decision was made to shoot to kill instead of wound we may never know.

Yes Blake only the citizens of Texas own guns. Right?

It is difficult to insult people when you are more ignorant than they!

ONCE AGAIN....no statement as to where or how this kid got the gun. was it bought illegally, was it taken from his parents house, was it legally owned and registered to someone? this info is necessary in these articles to keep the anti-gun nuts quiet!

Nothing will do that as evidenced by the stupid comments made by some here.

Regadless of where it came from this kid being in possession of a handgun is illegal under Federal law and Texas law.

All you people that claim he shouldn't have been short, or maybe shot in the leg or, etc. etc. etc. Would be the same people on here blaming the police for not killing him when they had the chance if he got away and killed several other kids or teachers at the school.

Have a nice day and go stick your heads back into the sand.

Agreed, Glochhead. Also I doubt this 15-year-old was in a middle school (the story doesn't say he was actually a student there..lots of people who end up with guns on campuses actually come in off the street..but I seriouslyt doubt he was one of the more exemplary students, and it would probably be a given he was either held back or had dropped out, tho the legal dropout age in most ofthe U.S. is 16. Irrelevant to qustion what @!$%#ing grade he was in. Would it make p eople feel beter if he'd been a precocious genius like the nitwit medical student a few years ago who committed suicide after being arrested for a string of internet connections with prostitutes in New England that resulted in these women's deaths? Would you prefer to be murdered by Einstein or just soome old Joe? The result is the same.

Realist...are you for real? In a shoot situation you go for center mass, otherwise it could be YOUR blood on the floor.

Blake-2644321...what part of the headline and story did you not understand? The kid was armed with a gun

Blake...see comment 1.16 above.

"are you proud of the fact that you're so afraid of your own shadow that you cannot even leave your house without a weapon? Its funny people like you brag about that."

I read his comment and I just dont see how you can come up with the above rant. Is everyone that carries a gun some sortof coward? Couldnt a person make the same sortof comment about liberals and their naivety.

otter54

Yes I am for real. Would it have been your child I suppose you would want the officer to "shoot to kill" right?

Baddog I'm 6'4" 260..I ain't scared of nothing..But I don't want to bring my fist to a gun fight...I know it's common sense for most...but there are some bad people out there who would kill you for nothing better than too say they killed someone.....I'm prepared to protect my neighbors and family..You can have piss running down your leg while I shoot the fool holding on gun on you...go clean yourself up...

Blake - the article and headline clearly state it was a gun. Had it been anything else my guess is the police would not have shot him. Had it been a knife they could have tasered him.

Realist...YES, rather than him killing another student or the cop...

What is up with Texas? It's like they never evolved past that Alamo mentality.

People in groups are stupid. This is scientific fact. Hence "The Mob Rules". When I was in school during the 80's. I lived in a farming community, everyone carried a knife on their belts, and most of the teachers and adults had shotguns and rifles, in their trucks. We got into fights, yet magically, no weapons were ever used, WHY? Because OUR parents HAD common sense and explained things to us.

So if you want someone to blame, I blame YOU people with horrible parenting skills, or lack of skills. Don't blame TV, Video Games or any other actions other than you are a horrible freakin parent, and your bad parenting got your kid killed. Not guns, not cops, but lazy people who should have been aborted back in the 80's but were allowed to reproduce.

Instead of doing your job with your kids, you allow Barney, Pokemon and other crappy "Entertainment" for your kids while you're busy on Facebook or looking at porn, and your kids have changed the channel and are watching something they probably shouldn't.

And just for the record, I'm a Democrat and I like guns! Guns don't kill people, lack of education and ethics, kill people, STUPIDS!

I feel sorry for the cop who had to shoot a 15yo kid. Even if he was in the right and had no other choice I bet that was traumatic and possibly needs to speak with a counselor.

Last time I checked, Barney and Pokemon aren't considered crappy entertainment. Do you even have any idea of what you're talking about?

Someone needs to explain why the teenager could not have been shot in the leg, thigh, hip, arm, hand, shoulder?

Because this isn't the movies, kid. You do not pip the apple off the head. You shoot for center mass. When you fire that gun, unless you're some award winning marksmen with plenty of time and a stationary target, you shoot what's easiest to hit. Shot to the chest is going to disable pretty much everyone. What happens when ur aiming for the hand or the leg and miss? Guess what? Someone is gonna be shooting back at you, the people around you, wherever. Ditch the movies please.

Realist,

Obviously I wouldn't want my child killed, but I would certainly hope that I raised my child better than to brandish a gun in a school. And shooting him in the leg isn't going to impair his trigger finger to prevent him from killing someone else's child who didn't bring a gun to school. And I do feel bad for him if he was bullied. Kids were really mean to me when I was a kid, and junior high was the worst. It was probably a really good thing I had no access to guns, although I would like to think that I wouldn't have taken advantage of it if I did.

For all you gun haters out there: Where would the 18-year-old widow in Oklahoma be today without the guns she used to defend herself and her infant son from home invaders?

The ownership and use of guns has its proper purpose. It's the misuse of those weapons that causes problems.

Shelly-3974969

Svenolafson - yes a 15 year old should be in 8th grade. My daughter is in 7th grade and is 13 yrs. old. She missed the cut off to start kindergarten by 1 day and had to wait an entire year to start.

Um...so wouldn't that make your daughter 14 in 8th grade? Or am I missing something. Even if you have a late birthday a have to wait a year, you wouldn't turn 15 until after 8th grade ended. Most people are HS sophomores at 15.

depends on the situation Realist 8( It's hard to say, we were not there but my instructors taught me center mass always to stop the threat.

Snipers can shoot the guns out of the hands of the perp but it's not always an option.

Age also does not come into play in this story, I see 15 year criminals killing all the time here in Socal gangster paradise 8p

Fifteen year old eighth grader?

Realist,

Law Enforcement does not shoot to wound people, because you still have a live threat that can kill you or someone else... Or if the bullet goes through the smaller part of the body you may have a innocent bystander as another casualty...

Same reason officers do not make warning shots, what goes up must come down. There are numerous records of people being killed or severly injured from stray or falling bullets...

nibor said:

I know, why don't we make it illegal for a 15 year old to be in possession of a firearm and make it illegal to carry it into a school?

This was clearly sarcasm and nothing more. I will have you know, that laws do prevent people from doing wrong. The ones that are successfully prevented, you just don't hear about. For instance, I was seriously considering robbing and slaughtering a mexican family down the road. Glad I did the research at the law library. Turns out, you need a permit for that here in L.A.

Scott-Awesome!!!!

This kid was going to do nothing good. Thank God the officer did the right thing. Not a happy ending but the best ending we could ask for.

As for the moonbat crowd. This fool didn't and couldn't legally own or even touch a firearm so your knee-jerk more gun control reaction won't work.

Tyler with respect should you be commentating as a moderator on the story? I'm not opposed to your side but if I were I might hesitate to pick on the moderators views... Just an observation. Perhaps you could use a non moderator account?

Cimun Says,

Use your head: the reason that it's so easy for guns to get into the wrong hands here is because there are so damn many of them - doesn't matter if it's a "law-abiding" cowboy, er, I mean citizen who has them. They simply don't have this problem in Europe because there aren't nearly as many guns that can fall into the wrong hands. Europeans hear this on their news and ridicule us by saying "only in America." So, yes, we know whipping out your big gun compensates for the fact that it's difficult to find your little wee-wee under your beer belly, but do people really have to die for it?!!

trust_verify....I think it is absolutely appropriate for the moderators to express opinions....they have to weed through all the BS they should be able to voice their own opinions...Tyler has proved to be a very fair moderator...I don't believe he allows his personal feelings to get in the way of his job. It should not be a big deal...he is a person not a machine.

I think most of us regret a few things we did as kids, or teenagers. Even with good parents, good friends, and caring teachers. Take away one or more of those things and it might seem impossible to a kid. Something for sure was wrong, and the laws on gun control were broken (laws are for honest people anyway). My guess is he was either protecting himself from a bully or gang, maybe going after them. I would say this school needs to be looked into very closely for student supervision both in the classroom and out in the field.

Realist,

It is quite obvious that a lot of these Trolls are not well informed or just plain old Internet Trolls barking to hear themselves bark. All of the talk of "center mass" did not come from any "legitimate" law inforcement officer. This would appear to be the ramble of wanna be Officers. I do not know the circumstances surrounding this teenagers death. I do not know why the Officer took a kill shot rather than incapacitating this person. (like everyone else on this post) I was not there. I do not pass judgement until hearing the Entire story. Bottom line... Your statement was legitimate.

Realist-502574

Someone needs to explain why the teenager could not have been shot in the leg, thigh, hip, arm, hand, shoulder? Who knows maybe the teenager was wanting to commit suicide by cop and all they did was fulfill his wishes. This was not a seasoned terrorist, but a confused and possibly mentally ill child. Do we know, maybe he was being bullied to the point of ending the bully's life? He had a handgun, not an arsenal. Since the decision was made to shoot to kill instead of wound we may never know.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Police and military personnel are trained to service the target: out of two, only one is going home and you had better make bloody sure that one is you. You don't have time to worry about whether someone wants you to shoot them dead (suicide, as you say) because you need to be 'in the moment'. You do not take anything for granted - you are there to do a job and it isn't acting as a psychologist at that moment in time. It is possible that there was mental illness: it happens - but there is normally a 'responsible party' for the mentally ill especially for the elderly and minors and it is they that should be held responsible. But again, you do not 'wonder' if you are servicing a 'mental' when you are looking at the business end full stop. Sadly in this day and age MOST kids that bring guns to school have been bullied. As far as a "handgun not an arsenal": all it takes to kill you is one gun - you normally only shoot one at a time with any degree of accuracy. If you have 'one' handgun and you are perceived to be threatening to utilize it, you're going down - it's that simple. In this kind of situation there is only 'shoot to kill': that is all that anyone needs to know. Either you go home at the end of the day or you don't, mate. You might need to visit the green room for awhile afterwards while you're on mandatory suspension pending an investigation until you're cleared, but you have your life. That's what it is about. I hope I explained it to your satisfaction. Only one more thing about any 'arsenal':

UP the Arsenal!!! Pride of North London!!!! Whoo-hoooo!!!

A 15 year old in 8th grade?

Yep, skipped a grade.

"there is no reason to carry a gun to school" there was for me , i was on the school rifle team, and i never shot anyone in school. it was the fool who misused the tool,now he is layin in his own pool of blood

A 15 year old in 8th grade?

Yep, skipped a grade

That would have put him in the 9th grade. I think you meant to say "repeated" a grade.

The police have to deal with people of all ages every day that would like nothing more than to shoot them down in cold blood.

People/Kids these days seem to be high on who knows what or have consumed alcohol at any given moment and there isn't enough time for a police officer to check them over when there holding a gun.

Its sad this 15 year old is dead but once he picked up that gun it changed him from a normal teenager to a possible killer.

With all the school shootings in the past these kids know better but some of them are just "better" than the rest and this is what happens in the end~

Did somebody forget to tell this Kid its against the law to bring firearms onto school property. or was this a failed attempt at show and tell? what kind of gun? BB gun? 357? pistol or riffle? where is the story?

5 y.o in kindergarten, 13 in 8th grade. Most everyone I knew was 14 as a freshman, 15 soph, then driving in their junior year.

For him to be 15 and still in 8th grade makes me think he repeated or held back two grades...possibly a result of his obviously poor decision making skills.

Trust, you're banned for a week! Lol!
Reality & Baddog, Scott may not have used the most couth in replying to you but he is correct in his message. Reality, this is an open forum and anybody can comment on anybody else's comment. "Open Forum" Get it?
To add, police are simply not trained to wing people, as others have posted. When they do have to fire their weapons it is "shoot to kill."

TO BLS'S comment above...................REALLY, are you really that uninformed???

I turned 16 in the spring of my sophomore year, with never having failed a grade...a 15-year-old in 8th grade is just not that unusual.

Darwinism at its best!!!

And for all you bleeding hearts out there NOPE I don't feel bad that he was only 15!

good for the cops.

also, the school should sue the family of the boy. they obviuosly did not do enough to ensure that their son could maintain a safe and healthy campus environment.

if you can sue the school for your boy being bullied, i can sue you for not making sure he doesnt bring a gun to school. parents need to start becoming more responsible for their children.

And here come the typical liberal, rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth anti-gun zealots. Maybe if I use really simple and small words you idiots will actually get it...

Being "pro-gun" does NOT equal "pro-every eighth grader carrying guns to school" but that's the correlation all of you anti-gun freaks constantly try to make. That's like saying "Oh, you think people should be able to drive? You must want toddlers behind the wheel!"

And to everybody on this thread who is anti-gun and then saying the cops should have just "winged" the kid, you all are a bunch of hypocrites. You've obviously never fired a handgun in your lives so you automatically assume that anybody who has can shoot a fly off the back off a dog with every single shot. IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY. Cops are trained to aim for center mass. If you take the time to aim for an arm, shoulder, or leg and MISS, chances are you're dead.

I turned 16 in the spring of my sophomore year, with never having failed a grade...a 15-year-old in 8th grade is just not that unusual.

Not that unusual? It should be. Sophomore year of high school is 10th grade. Being that we're only a few months into the current school year, a 15 year old in 8th grade is two full years behind his peers.

There is no reason for ANYONE to carry a weapon ANYWHERE for ANY reason. ALL guns should be banned except for law enforcement and the military. This is what all of you Second Amendment gun wackos get with your idiotic gun ownership policies. BAN THEM ALL!!!!

The student engaged the police with a weapon. This is the result when one chooses to do such an ignorant act. Regardless of your age you cannot act this way and expect to walk away. The responsibility is on the student in this case. He failed.

Perhaps it was "suicide by cop". We had a similar episode in a hardware store in our town. Fellow did not shoot anyone but himself a few minutes before the police arrived.

He was probably testing the system with a death wish. More than likely suicide by Cop, another gay kid acting out the hate.

Don't be ignorant. I turned 15 while in 8th grade and never failed a grade. Most people in my high school were 16 their sophomore year (thus the reason students all take Safety class in their sophomore year). Not everyone starts Kindergarten at the exact same age. And 15 in 8th grade does NOT equal 21 in 12th grade...unless you're assuming it takes this student 6 years to finish high school.

Why are you people so hung up on the fact he was a year off onage ? so what, I had a daughter that we held back in the fourth grade to adjust for some issues on maturity, she didn't flunk she was just behind a little on her social abilities holding her back was advised and supposedly was all the adjustment needed she also went through a cross country move the previous year and had to readjust, she graduated college with high standing, I fail to see what your problem with his age is. I am however curious about his surroundings and why he did what he did, that's more than a maturity problem, All I can say is its the people who never see daylight because their head is somewhere it doesn't normally belong are more the problem then the solution, so instead of questioning his age get you head out of your a?? and think of the loss of life. your attitudes are appalling... and 15 is to young to die.

Molon Labe !

Realist,

It is quite obvious that a lot of these Trolls are not well informed or just plain old Internet Trolls barking to hear themselves bark. All of the talk of "center mass" did not come from any "legitimate" law inforcement officer. This would appear to be the ramble of wanna be Officers. I do not know the circumstances surrounding this teenagers death. I do not know why the Officer took a kill shot rather than incapacitating this person. (like everyone else on this post) I was not there. I do not pass judgement until hearing the Entire story. Bottom line... Your statement was legitimate

Clearly, you wouldn't recognize a "legitimate" law enforcement officer if he shoved his baton up your foolish arse!

As a retired police lieutenant, training supervisor and firearms instructor, I can speak with the authority of an "expert witness" in court. Therefore you can take it from my "legitimate" expert opinion that officers are indeed taught to shoot for center mass.

Officers are taught to shoot for center mass for several reasons. The most important is that it provides the largest possible target area. In an actual shooting situation, most people are running on adrenalin which can often cause rapid breathing and shaking hands. While most officers are fairly skilled marksmen on the range, they tend to be somewhat less accurate under stressful situations. By aiming for center mass, they have a larger margin of error, a greater likelihood of a successful stop and a reduced threat to bystanders due to errant projectiles.

The second reason is based on terminal ballistics. The thickness of the torso greatly reduces the possibility of a projectile completely penetrating the target and becoming a hazard to bystanders. The arms and legs offer less resistance unless a major bone is hit.

Officers are not taught to "shoot to kill". They are taught to shoot to "stop or neutralize" a threat. Once the actor stops being a threat, then the officer will stop shooting.

Lastly, the only shot that will guarantee that the actor won't shoot anyone else, even as an involuntary reaction to being hit, is a brain stem shot which requires very precise shooting and is frankly beyond the ability of most shooters. Trying to wound an actor may only prolong a gun battle and increase the risk to bystanders.

The boy committed suicide by cop. My question is why we have cops in the schools to begin with. Throw the ones who can't or don't want to learn out, and we could do without the cops. Public schools are little more than socialist indoctrination anyway.

Jenson- You could be close to the Truth its a mental stress, our society with all the different sides of life being shoved down children's lives (being a variety of things) is not necessary, we as a society don't allow children to be children they are all being brainwashed to some groups agenda and its not right or healthy.

Vince-troll, I hope myself or another cww is there to help out when you're laying in a fetal position begging for your life to some crackhead, gang member or pissed off gay lover ready to cap your ass. I hope someone is there to help you.

Vince-troll, I hope myself or another cww is there to help out when you're laying in a fetal position begging for your life to some home invader, crackhead, gang member or pissed off gay lover ready to cap your ass. I hope someone is there to help you.

Someone needs to explain why the teenager could not have been shot in the leg, thigh, hip, arm, hand, shoulder?

If you are a realist then maybe you've though this through and figured out how obvious the answer should be. In defensive shooting, there is no 'shoot to kill', there is only 'shoot to stop the threat'. Unfortunately that often mean death.

In a defensive shooting situation, you're shooting under stress. Add the the fact in this case, shooting a kid would only add more. Under those kinds of stress levels, NO ONE is a bulls eye shooter. You aim for the largest target available... generally center mass. Shooting for the arm, leg, what have you, would likely result in a miss, or worse, an hitting an unintended person.

Also remember BOTH parties to the conflict are probably experiencing a spike in adrenaline which means while an arm or leg hit might normally stop a person, the chances are far less. Add to that the chance the target may be on some other drugs and the potential for fighting through a unshot would increases even more.

Diminished accuracy and less effectiveness is precisely why officers DO NOT go for arms, hands, legs etc. Even the head is a secondary target die to the fact that that center mass is a larger area.

The police were justified in shooting a 15 year old with a fake pistol? There are alternatives. Beanbag rounds? Rubber bullets? Gas? Taser? Fast assault behind shields and in armored wardrobe? Talking? Microwave weapons, sound waves. Very sad for the family and so shameful on the part of the cops. Anybody talking of "center mass shots" here is ignoring it was a kid with a fake gun. Not entirely on topic, but I wonder what happened to the hunters who were directing fire at the school in West Texas from their deer lease a couple of weeks ago?

What is a pellet gun?

This seem to be an ode to suicide by cop.....

The cops assigned to public school patrol are the lowest quality government employees with the lowest achievement scores as tested by the standard police tests. Most have scored too low to be part of the larger metropolitan police force or have some personality or intelligence issues that barred them from the serving in the more complex demographic and high density environment.

It is not surprising that the school cop over reacted and killed the child who had a pellet gun, a toy. Knowing that a pistol is a highly inaccurate weapon even in the hand of adult, an experienced professional cop would have disarmed the child at a safe distance without killing the child.

Most school patrol cops aspire to be regular cops using their school patrol experience in their resume to advance to the higher pay and join more prestigeous police departments.

In the meantime, another senseless killing due to sloppy police work. There's truth to "You get what you pay for."

FatCat

The cops assigned to public school patrol are the lowest quality government employees with the lowest achievement scores as tested by the standard police tests. Most have scored too low to be part of the larger metropolitan police force or have some personality or intelligence issues that barred them from the serving in the more complex demographic and high density environment.

Do you have a site to cite for fact check or are you talking out your backside? Resource officers are often chosen because of their ability to work with the public and students in particular.

As to all of you shoot to wound pundits, when you can face down someone with a gun AND determine the gun is not real from a distance let us know. With todays replica weapons the only way to determine they are fake is to get your hands on them. It is presumed that the person pointing the weapon has enough sense to only point a real gun at someone when their target presents a gun, especially police.

FatCat just remember your OPINION of police the next time you need to dial 911. Since you think they are so mentally deficient remember to not provoke them or get upset because they don't understand. Treat them as the special needs you believe them to be.

The police were justified in shooting a 15 year old with a fake pistol? There are alternatives. Beanbag rounds? Rubber bullets? Gas? Taser? Fast assault behind shields and in armored wardrobe? Talking? Microwave weapons, sound waves.

First of all, there was likely no way of knowing it was fake until after the shooting,. Second, you really have to stop watching movies... seriously. microwave weapons? Sound waves? Most of those types of weapons are still in military experimental phases and Hollywood. You don't use a tazer on a guy with a gun and bean bags are for crown control, not possible armed suspects.

Wtf is all I can say, what world do you people live in?

fishinfool555

You stated you are retired... wonder why

The latter part on your pseudonym says it all.

Fatcat, You could not be more wrong. Clearly, you have zero idea what you are talking about. Officers assigned to school duty have to be more patient, diplomatic, friendly, etc. than a cop on beat. Quit making up stuff just because you have a kid that has had problems with them. That could be the only reason why you would make such a lame, generalized comment.

#1.92

Reported CoH violation. Your whole comment is one big insult to fishingfool. You actually have the balls to question why he is retired? DOH! Could it be he is retired because he put in his 30 to 40 years of work? Maybe he retired due to health issues after 20 years of work. I don't know him and neither do you.But if he can afford to retire in this economy and do what he enjoys -fishing, he is FAR from being a fool.

#1.92 Molon Labe

Everyone take notes.

Ad Hominem. AKA attacking the person rather than the argument. A common Red-Herring fallacy.

In other words, Molon Labe stated something, and Fishinfool replied not only with evidence, but with legitimate evidence, as Fishinfool has years of experience with the content of the argument Molon Labe presented.

Molon Labe, like a few of you, asked why the child couldn't have been wounded or shot in the hand or knee or something. Fishinfool replied with A LOT of legitimate evidence, reasons, and logic. Therefore, having realized that his argument had just been proving wrong, Molon Labe shifted his aim straight at Fishinfool, by assuming that fishinfool was retired due to poor work performance (Not sure what planet Molon Labe lives on, but here on earth, you don't retire due to poor work performance, you're fired) and straight-up calling him a fool. Excellent example of a classic logical fallacy Molon Labe!

Just to finally state my position in the argument, I really like it when people criticize the actions taken by police, firemen, teachers, and anyone with a lot of pressure on their backs and eyes watching.

1. If you truly believe that pellet guns don't look strikingly realistic, then maybe it's time you took a field trip to the local Gander mountain, Dicks, Bass Pro shops, etc. and took a look at some of the 50 dollar pellet/air-soft guns. One in particular that my friend had, even FELT and WEIGHED as much as a real Glock 9mm. I didn't know it was fake until taking the clip out...

2. Stop assuming that just because Jack Bauer can rip a man's Juggular out with his teeth, and Commander Shepard from mass effect can shoot a gas tank from across a warehouse room, that everyone in the military is some Rambo man, firing two Big ass machine guns from the hip and has perfect aim and NEVER falls victim to the mental stresses of war. Or that every cop is immune to the outrageous amount of disrespect they receive or the terrible comments 20 times more rude than they might have seemed to you, often times when it isn't deserved. Real life isn't hollywood life.

3. As Fishinfool said, when you respond to any scene in which a gunman is involved, your adrenaline is going to be through the roof, your heart will be racing, your hands shaking, sweating, dilated pupils which can impair vision slightly, etc. Now, after you see the VERY realistic looking gun from a DISTANCE, try putting your DECENT pistol accuracy skills to the test by aiming for this young man's arm (not sure why you would shoot for the leg, I've never met someone who can pull a trigger with their toe) all while running the risk of the bullet going through the very small and thin limb and hitting someone else. You'd be the SAME PERSON complaining about that had the cop went for the arm instead.

Dear Molon Labe, as well as the rest of you who let your aching bleeding heart, your hatred for cops, and your hatred for guns cloud your logic how about you be mature human beings and either admit you're wrong about the actions of the police in this particular incident, or just all-in-all stop commenting, whether you agree with all of the logic, evidence, and facts given to you (by YOUR request) or not.

Remember the days when the worst you could get in a school hallway was a few whacks from an authority figure , or a "look that could kill" from a jaded ex? Maybe give, or receive a knuckle sandwich? Why guns?

Sir...I had a switch blade pulled on me when I was in high school. That was in the '70's.

Lately because it seems no one can fight 1 on 1. Almost all the recent school fight and neighborhood fight vids may start 1 on 1, but soon as one guy starts winning though, all the other guy's friends jump in, if they weren't already in it to start.

hs, I'm assuming that when you knew he wasn't carrying it, you either made your disapproval VERY strongly known; or that you reported him?

trust verify...Just because Tyler is a moderator does not mean he loses his right to free speech. He has the same right to comment as you do so long as he abides by the rules and enforces them according to MSNBC policy.

Colorblind please read my comment to Tyler. I don't deny his right to have an opinion or make a comment as himself. Using his MODERATOR ID gives the APPEARANCE of playing god. Sort of like a police officer making statements in uniform. It appears to be POLICE opinion not their own.

The only thing stupider than to point a gun at a cop or raising one is pointing a fake gun at a cop or raising one. BTW folks five year olds are kindergarten eight years later would make a kid (5+8=13) 13 years old. The kid was two years behind.

Depends on your birth month, and his age is irrelevant, the fact he is dead is very real

Get off the age thing and find out what would make these kids today want to self distruct, Im sure it wasent his report card, could be our sick society!

While way out of line, I don't see how hitting a classmate and carrying a pellet gun is en route to self destruction, nor do I consider it justification to be shot to death by policemen or any other humans, especially when the kid is an unformed teenager. What is wrong with you people?

Colorblind please read my comment to Tyler. I don't deny his right to have an opinion or make a comment as himself. Using his MODERATOR ID gives the APPEARANCE of playing god. Sort of like a police officer making statements in uniform. It appears to be POLICE opinion not their own.

I'm sorry but I don't see or feel at all that a mod posting resembles anything remotely like playing god. And if he was forced to create an alternate ID just to post, you'd call him a sock-puppet or something and complain about that. As for him commenting on the story, he didn't write it. He didn't go out to interview people for it. He has just as much right to read and post as you or I do.

He's a forum moderator. His job is to keep the comments civil and allow for the free flow of information. Same job I do on Kongregate. If you have an irrational fear of replying to a comment made by a moderator, you need to deal with it, not force him to "change clothes" just to make you feel better. Tyler has someone he has to report to also. So rather than create a problem that isn't there, how about you wait and see if he abuses his uniform and then report it?

colorblind and chris... how about we let the MODERATOR speak for themselves. What you do on YOUR forum is up to you. As to "abuse of uniform" just whom would you suggest someone reporting that to???? perhaps the moderator?

Chris specific to your comment... Feel free to review ALL of my comments on ALL the threads I post to. I've never accused someone of being a "sock puppet". On very rare occasion I have made the comment someone is a troll, shill or corporate insider with blinders on touting the industry/company line. I have seen it happen in forums where someone does not have the same view as the moderator and they are silenced for one excuse or another. That tends to put a chill on responses from others for fear of suffering the same fate. If you don't like my comments the ignore author is always an option. Tyler either has not seen my comment, chosen to ignore it, or abide by it and post under a regular ID. I made my comment and plan on this being my last comment to anyone except tyler, whom it was addressed to. Had I given it a bit more thought I would have attempted a PRIVATE message to him, especially since it has BOTHERED the two of you. Feel free to get the last word in.

just whom would you suggest someone reporting that to????

Why not ask Tyler himself? Or Sally? I'm required to provide a point of contact to to the people I report to, for anyone who asks. Odds are so are they.

Perhaps Newsvine is different, but for me the job of moderator was not a volunteer position. I was asked as were the other mods, out of 6 million+ users. By not accepting the people who ask to be mods, you tend to filter out those that want the job for the "power trip". A quick look at Tyler's page shows he's been posting since 2005. If in 7 years he's still as neutral a mod as he seems to me, I applaud him and really have no reason to think he's like you believe he is.

Hmmm... do you know where Redding, California, is? Didn't think so. I won't condescend to tell you.

Pueo - do you think people spend their spare time memorizing where middle sized cities of no importance to them are located?

not so much...granted, i knew it was IN texas, just not where exactly...i'd have guessed near the gulf?

Pueo are you upset that the article is letting everyone know that it is in a predominately Hispanic town that is close to the border? Why would that bother you? It is just part of the facts of the story. The story itself is sad that a young person took a gun to school and lost their life and put the lives of police and students at risk.

Pueo,

You beat me to it. I thought the same thing....LOL

I had no idea where it was, but does it really matter?

Now I know where Brownsville is without looking at a map... Thanks MSNBC

Sawyer, I thought Otis died? Is he really in California? Is Jim Morrison there also?

They're just letting people know where it is located. I live in TX, and didn't even know where it was exactly. Now, I know, that's good journalism to let your reader know where the story is taking place. I'm originally from WV and a lot of people don't know it's a state, but I don't get offended.

There's a lot of people that don't know where it is. I've heard of it but I didn't know where it is.

"Smokin in the Boys Room"

Is where I heard of it. Brownsville Station.

wow...somebody thinks their town is more important than it really is....a sad story about a troubled kid being killed and a cop that has to live with it and all you care about is that your po-dunk village isn't as popular as you think?...I bet you're mad because they probably dont make those dumb hats with your village area code on it so you can "represent"...get a clue buddy

Really? A kid carrys a gun to school with probable intentions of shooting other students, gets killed by the police and you're upset because the location of Brownsville is disclosed. The location is relevant information to the story. Now, go back to your happy life married to your cousin and playing the song from Deliverance.

I always knew where it was located from Brownsville Station (Smokin' in the boys room) and I'm from New Emgland. Nonetheless, visited once and it's a real $hithole.

It's just so hard to play "Dueling Banjos" with a Colt .45 and slapping your fat belly.

I spent a summer in Brownsville (over 30 yrs ago). It was a fun time. Siesta after lunch because it was too hot to work. Every weekend at South Padre Island... Every other Saturday walking across the border into Mexico. Buying cheap vanilla to take home to Mom... Haggling over blankets you can get a Walmart now... Listening to Santos practice playing the sax solo in Foreigner's Urgent... Watching Lalo cutting watermelon. Every white boy should get a summer like that. Learn to appreciate different cultures.

PS. Really sorry for the kids family. But they should have supervised a lot more. The kid may have just been terrified to not have a weapon. I carried a pipe in my pocket the lat week of school because I was SCARED. That was over 30 years ago in N.C. That is just above S.C. and below Virginia if you don't know.

Sirlafalot

Sawyer, I thought Otis died? Is he really in California? Is Jim Morrison there also?

=======

..........Otis is buried under a dock of the bay, and Morrison is just south of Red Rocks, small town up in the foothills, people from Denver can verify that. Of course, you might be thinking of Morrison IL, where the state record Muskie was caught. As 3 Dog Night would say, "In Oklahoma, not Arizona, what does it matter, what does it matter?"

In a serious note, there have been far too many tradegies in our schools. When someone walks in with a gun these days, even a minor, you have to assume their intentions are not benevolent.

You people slamming the entire state of Texas, yes, there are jerks in TX, but there are jerks everywhere, and I'm sure there are plenty of good people in TX, just like in other places. God, how some of you, and I mean both sides (lib/con/ DEM/GOP/ gun/no gun, etc.) paint everyone with a great big broad brush. You ALL need to take a step back and make judgements based on individual criteria and situations.

Pueo-1105519

Do you really feel you have to 'esplain to your readers where Brownsville, a city of more than 175,000, is? Are you really that condescending or did you just learn it yourself?

Wow really? A whole 175,000? Most people outside of Texas probably never even heard of the town, let alone locate it. I first think of Long Island when I hear Brownsville.

170,000 of them are illegal aliens. The other 5,000 are anchor babies.

Oh Lion is so going to be collapsed.

That's probably true Lion. They want to live like they are in Mexico so this is how they live. I'm in Houston and I'm so amazed by the lack of eduction from these people and the lack of regard of others.

professormarine

Oh Lion is so going to be collapsed.

what? for being right ?

no prob because she wants to make the argument that we stole this land from Mexico and we are the true illegals. So tired of that lame argument. They are the worse immigrants ever and we know who their true allegiance is too. I love how they want to yell Mexico but sure don't want to live there.

How dare you all be saying things like that about Brownsville, TX!!!! The story is about a young boy that died!!!! NOT the town he was from!!! I am from this area and for your information, it is not a s**tstain of America!!! We are strong, hardworking, people that are proud of our heritage!!!! WE are a prodominatly Hispanic comunity, but we do not want to be in Mexico or want the violance that is in Mexico over here!!! This happens all over the country (unfortunatly) and now it is because we are Hispanic or Mexican??? You all can go to Hell!!!

Denton, That was a long time ago. You would be crazy to do that now. Probably wouldn't make it thru the summer.

Do you really feel you have to 'esplain to your readers where Brownsville, a city of more than 175,000, is?

Pueo, Brownsville is also a city in these states: Texas, Florida, Tennessee, Kentucky, California, Indiana, Ohio, and Maryland.

Maybe that is why that they had to "explain" where it is.

DENTON: "That was over 30 years ago in N.C. That is just above S.C. and below Virginia if you don't know."

=====

...........Yeah great..........but now where are S.C. and Virginia...oh...wait.....I know, they're just below and above N.C., okay, got it.

Brownsville is on the border, near the coast. In Texas. Above Texas you have Oklahoma and Arkansas, bordering Texas is New Mexico and Louisiana and south of Texas is the Gulf of Mexico, if you go south of Texas and towards land you find Mexico. All of this is in the Northern Hemisphere. On the planet, Earth.

This story about the shooting of a teenager is tragic for all concerned, BTW.

frankly, im happy they did.

we dont need to warehouse this scum in prison for the next 60 years at $35K a year.

perhaps, the next kid considering the same thing...will think twice. or not. I dont really care, it's not about determent...it's about not wasting more time, resources and energy on such utter complete trash.

Stop watching so much TV. In a firefight (I have to assume this was one), one always aims at the largest part of the body. Shooting the gun out of the hand nonsense is not real world.

Jai, why exactly does it matter that this is Texas?

Jai that is pretty naive.

"Why couldn't they just shoot him in the arm or the foot?" Good grief, folks. Stop watching TV and get out in the real world. Shots such as those are virtually impossible in a real armed conflict. We rarely have any desire other than to "stop the threat." That response begins with verbal commands transitions though non-lethal methods if the situation permits and ends with lethal response only if that is the only response that will definitely stop the threat. If the guard outside Columbine High School had shot and killed the three students who entered the school and killed all those innocent children, I suppose you would have said "Couldn't he just have shot them in the foot?"

so jai, did it ever occur that someone's hand works just fine and can still pull the trigger if they have a wound to their leg? wounding someone does not automatically translate to stopping their behavior.

If this kid was aiming his gun at your child would you still be questioning the way the police stopped him?

This isn't the movies! If you shoot, you shoot to remove the threat! That usually kills the person who is a threat. In the movies you shoot the gun out of the hand or shoot him in the leg and he drops the gun...but in real life that's not realistic...what if you shoot him in the leg and he shoots YOU in the head, then shoots other people?

Maybe he could have been "Tazed" but again, why bring a tazer to a gun battle?

In the end, the police officer needs to go home, not in a casket.

We weren't there, but I suspect the kid "Threatened" the police by either raising the weapon and not listening to instructions...if he would have dropped it, it would have ended peacefully and everyone would have gone home (well him to jail, but alive).

LOL! It's Texas. Doesn't everybody know how to do Annie Oakley type trick shots in there? Jai is right. Should have taken a ricochet off the water fountain (bubbler for those of you in the South) across to locker 122, off the door nob to Mr. Thomas' Earth Science class room nicking the side of the gun just above Jr's thumb knocking it out of his hand and making him cry. What were they thinking of shooting an armed 15 year old in eighth grade? With a center mass shot?

I am not sure if they could have "shot him in the arm or leg" or not. If they could, then he is still armed and still deadly. When you have a gun and the ability to kill, they are going to kill you. That is how they get to go home at night to see there families again.

Jai, What was your point. Still think everyone is Texas carries a gun, wears a cowboy hat and rides a horse to work?? Give me a break.

When trainig in the act of self defense you are not taught to take a limb shot. The proper target is the middle of the torso. Center mass. Officers are trained the same way. Center mass. It is the proper way to handle the situation.

Instead of jumping on the police. Jump on the fool that took a weapon to school and pointed at the police. Poor planning with no training.

Jai-990916.....An FYI.....he was transported alive to the hospital, where he died.....and a gunshot to the femeral artery in the leg and you will bleed out faster than a stuck pig.....

Just ask Sean Taylor...oh wait, you can't he's dead

"The 24-year-old safety died in a Florida hospital where he underwent nearly
seven hours of emergency surgery Monday to repair a severed femoral artery, the
team confirmed in a website statement."

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5inBCphyML1agXk3R4p3aKuvWvyAA

Jai....It is against every rule for a peace officer to shot to wound a suspect...are you really the naive...

I'm sorry, but if someone is pointing a gun at me, I would close the book. You think police officiers at the target range are practicing shooting arms and legs?? There is a reason for the bullseye in the center of the chest and head - only sure way to stop an assailant.

Guns are not toys, they are considered lethal force - there is no safe way to use a gun, other then the assailant surrendering.

The teen apparently thought "Drop your Weapon" was only a suggestion. Too much COD, must of thought he would respawn.

@paulb_47, if you had read the article (and understood what you read, I know I know i'm asking too much) it stated that the kid was armed not shooting. And if you had any knowledge in the use of lethal force or any gun knowledge you would know that a lethal shoot is not always required. Based on the information given in this story, I stand by my statement that there were other options other than shoot to kill. And for the rest of you who was and are offended by my Texas, it is only because the truth hurts.

And one other thing where in this story does it say that the kid pointed the gun at anyone, less only the officer, It stated the the kid engaged the officer, which could mean verbally vocally, or visually. Never did it say the gun was pointed at anyone. So get off your high horse, and try to read and understand what you have read that way you will not jump to conclusions.

Jai - the police are trained to use deadly force only as a last resort. As such, if an officer finds himself in a situation like that, he has to make a decision in an instant and proceeds as he has been trained - aim for center mass and fire his weapon. The police are trained to kill, not wound. It's unfortunate there are situations where deadly force is what it comes to. Try not to judge the decisions a cop makes until you walk a mile in his shoes.

I agree with Jai. Had they shot him in the arm or leg, he most likely would have dropped his weapon. Yes, this was obviously a troubled kid; but if they hadnt shot to kill, maybe the end result would have been he would have finally gotten the mental help he needed. Someone commented that they were glad they killed him because the prison system doesnt need to house people like him ( Im paraphrasing). Well, that is not how it works. Like it or not, our prison system is here for a reason; because it is NOT our job to play God!

Beth: Agree if you want, but I'll guarantee that a LEO in that position would not. He has to decide whether he wants to risk the gunman being able to shoot back (possible with a limb shot) or go down, saving the life of the officer and other potential victims. Now, it's been a while since I visited a shooting range, but when I was trained in the use of a handgun, the targets didn't even have arms or legs...you're trained to aim at the largest part of the target. That arm and leg stuff is Hollywood at its finest.

Scott-2329078. Congratulations on being selected to speak for the idiot committee. You must be proud.

Copwife, I have walked over a mile in their shoes, and fortunately i was not limited in mental decision making.

NO GUN WAS POINTED AT ANYONE AT ANYTIME.......EXCEPT BY THE COP.

IN FACT THE ONLY TIME THE WORD GUN IS MENTIONED IS AT THE TOP OF THIS POST. NOT IN THE ARTICLE, HERE AND ONLY HERE.

Jai & Beth,

In the terms as the word 'ENGAGED' is used in the article, (unless you are a mental midget) it means with his gun and 99% of the readers understand that. If he had not 'engaged' the officer that way the officer would have tried to talk him out of the gun (dropping it). However he 'engaged' the officer and was killed.

Read my previous post above on why officers do not shoot to wound or take warning shots...

First off, this sort of incident doesn't seem to know any particular state or municipality boundaries. It don't matter where it happened; what matters is that it did happen. What matters is that a 15 year old kid is dead! What matters is that there is a cop who, on one hand, knows he did the right thing and on the other, knows he has killed at 15 year old kid. He will carry that with him the rest of his life.

Police officers are taught to shot for center mass. That's just the way it is. The chance that someone might drop a weapon once they are wounded is just that, a chance. There is also the chance they won't. There is also a chance the kid would have never used the gun if he was just left alone or that the gun wasn't loaded, but would you risk your kids life on that?

Police are also trained to use deadly force only as a last resort. I would be willing to bet this kid didn't have the gun pointed at the ground. I would imagine he already had it pointed at someone or was making a motion to point it at someone when the officer fired.

This is an awful situation. This really sucks for the kid, his family, the police officer, his family, the students, their families, the faculty and staff and their families, and for the community. I feel terrible for everyone involved. The only good thing about this is that no one else was injured or killed.

According to other articles the 15 year old engaged officers....I would believe that means he drew his gun...my prayers are with the officers involved and the students, teachers and administrators who were at risk.

anyone else here notice it's mainly women making these comments about shoot him in the foot or the arm. Sorry ladies I served two years in Afgan and it sounds to me that you either have never shot a weapon, been in a conflict, or just watch to many hollywood movies. Go get a weapon, and then point it at an officer and see if he does not shoot you dead in the chest. I assure you this is probably what happened and I would have done the same thing. I've been in conflict and when faced with the treat you are not thinking about shooting someone in the foot or arm even if they are a younger person. Sorry but this dumb kid got what was coming to him.

Had they shot him in the arm or leg, he most likely would have dropped his weapon

If that gun discharged when it hit the ground and a bullet struck one of the officers would that have been better?

Copwife, I have walked over a mile in their shoes, and fortunately i was not limited in mental decision making.

Jai, you are a liar.......Period. No one with that type of experience and training would say something that stupid.

My brother has been a policeman for 20 years so spare us all further ignorance.

Beth, I am going to give a policeman a gun and have another man point a gun at your child. Do you want the policeman to wound him or...........??????

Jai & Beth,

The Hollywood "shoot the gun out of his hand" theory was busted by Myth Busters episode #134. After several attempts, the difficulty of hitting the small target of the revolver, the high risk of shrapnel injuries, and the unpredictable reactions of the person holding the weapon, they classified the myth as busted. And they discovered that while one of them always dropped the "gun" when it was hit the other one actually held on to his gun in the shoot out position. In other words not everyone reacts the same way to pain or threat of pain. And this was done under ideal, non-threatening conditions. Real life conditions - someone dies.

Hitting someone in the arm or leg is possible under ideal conditions or by accident. However the risk of hitting the major arteries is very high. The impact of a bullet in such a small area will cause tremendous damage to the surrounding tissue. Even a small "nick' to the femoral artery will lead to extreme blood loss and death in a short time. I am sure any Combat Vet or Medical person can verify this.

Jai - #4.21 I call BS on your claim that "I have walked over a mile in their shoes, and fortunately i was not limited in mental decision making." Every comment you have written was from the perspective of someone with little or no experience in handling of a weapon. You could play "Grand Theft Auto Vice City" for 8 hours a day 7 days a week for a year but that would not make you an expert in real life situations.

IN FACT THE ONLY TIME THE WORD GUN IS MENTIONED IS AT THE TOP OF THIS POST. NOT IN THE ARTICLE, HERE AND ONLY HERE.

In the terms as the word 'ENGAGED' is used in the article, (unless you are a mental midget) it means with his gun and 99% of the readers understand that.

Copied/pasted from the article:

"Brownsville police Detective J.J. Trevino said investigators hadn't determined whether the student fired any shots, and he said officers had no information on why the student might have had the gun on him.

Can we end the dispute over whether or not the student was armed with a gun?

Jai

Police shot and killed an eighth-grader in the hallway of his middle school Wednesday after the boy brandished what looked like a handgun and pointed it at officers. It turned out to be a pellet gun that closely resembled the real thing.

Also what I'm wondering is this, why is everyone forgetting that it's a PELLET GUN? While yes, it looked like an actual handgun, ya'll are speaking about this as if he was brandishing an actual weapon, like the ones used to shoot him.

Jai

Hindsight is always 20/20. It LOOKED like an actual weapon. What would YOU think the kid had if it LOOKED like an actual weapon and it was pointed at you?

Also what I'm wondering is this, why is everyone forgetting that it's a PELLET GUN? While yes, it looked like an actual handgun, ya'll are speaking about this as if he was brandishing an actual weapon, like the ones used to shoot him.

The fact that he was brandishing a pellet gun came out much later and was not included in the original article, which has been updated. Pellet guns today are manufactured to look, feel, and operate exactly as their real-world counterparts. They are usually licensed products manufactured to the same scale, and in some cases, out of the same materials, as real life military and law enforcement equipment. "Airsoft" is a popular sport among teenagers that is very similar to paintball, however 6mm plastic pellets are used in lieu of paintballs.

The "orange tip" is only required to ship the product, and there are no federal laws mandating it is present generally. That said, in most states, when brandishing a toy gun in the commission of a crime, you are charged as if it were a real firearm regardless of its authenticity. From a practical perspective, there is absolutely no way of knowing it's a toy until the trigger is pulled.

The "orange tip" is only required to ship the product,

Also, the orange tip, required on air soft guns as they are considered toys, are not required, actually prohibited from 'pellet' guns as they are NOT. They actually fire a metal projectile sometimes reaching muzzle velocities rivaling that of actual firearms.

At distance, there is generally little or no way to determine a pellet gun vs a firearm.

Do some on line browsing and you will see many "real" looking air guns that can fire a pellet at a high enough velocity to injure or kill if you are hit in the right spot.

There was a Denver officer killed several years ago during training. He was hit in the neck by a Simunitions paint ball round.

If you had read the article he was 15, and this is how it goes. 15 year old points deadly weapon at police, police kill him. Done and done. Age of who is holding the gun means nothing, it is just as deadly with a 15 or 50 year old holding it.

no there is a difference: a 15 year old is not legally "responsible". If you are a trained marksman, you have the ability to make the difference between a full body mass shot, or a lower body shot.

Age of who is holding the gun MAKES all the difference.

ruth - then perhaps we need to stop raising idiot kids who dont have responsibility.

dont raise idiots, and they wont end up like this. PROBLEM SOLVED.

at 15, I knew better not to take a loaded gun to school for ANY REASON (and yes, I had access to hunting guns in my home)

A 15-yr-old who is armed is just as capable as someone who is armed and no longer a minor. A threat against human life is a threat. Had your child been in that school, crouching in a classroom in terror, would you have asked the same foolish question, Ruth?

Ruth my brother is a police officer and I wouldn't want to learn that he got shot an killed because they decided to shot the criminal in the "lower body" which didn't stop him from continuing to shoot and my brother was then killed.

There were 15 yr olds in WW1...Crap I was married at 17....Don't point a gun at a police officer.. At 15 that kid could be 6' tall and weight 250#'s....??

Ruth, whether he's 14, or 10 or 80, if he's pointing a gun at you, you shoot him. Period. If it was me or him to go down, I'd rather it be him.

ruth

no there is a difference: a 15 year old is not legally "responsible".

ummm deadly weapon... whether the PERSON was "legally responsible" or not his bullets were presumed to be real and would have been DEADLY, legal or not. So the story could either read the way it does or..... Policeman killed by non responsible child with gun. Child proceeds to shoot fellow students and teachers. Swat takes out gunman. 2 or more dead instead of one. Please pretty please give me the gun? Feel free to face down a gun and try that one.

It is easy to justify shooting and killing anyone that engaging you with a weapon. My question is where did he get the weapon?

It is easy to justify. Hard to live with later, but easy to justify shooting someone who is pointing a gun at you. Unlike Ruth, the police have a duty to make that school safe for the other people. The unsafe one is now made safe by his own death. Oh well. Ruth could run away and hide. The police have more of a responsibility than that and, therefore, can not hide.

Ruth,

You are just wrong. Getting a sharp shooter in a school on quick notice, I don't think so. Trying to wing the kid? This is not an old western movie. He in any way threatens the lives of officers, they shoot him dead. If he kills the policeman who is trying to shoot him in the leg, whose gonna protect the rest of those innocent kids that DIDN'T bring a gun to school? Get real.

Yeah you are right Jessica, idiot kids raised by idiot parents who DON'T LOCK THEIR GUNS! As a gun owner this is Driving me mad that these idiots are the reason why I may loose the ability to defend myself.

Ike: if you are a responsible gun owner or a LEO, you are supposed to be training with your firearms and, again, make every round count and hit where you intend them to hit.
Did this kid made anybody "crouch in terror"? where did you get this from this story? Who is the fool now?

I was actually surprised to see he was 15 and in 8th grade. Unfortunate events.. I just wonder what his mental capacity was.

Point a gun at a cop...s/he shoots to kill, not to mame, wound or disable...to kill. End of story. I would have done the same thing.

Hopefully the police officer(s) involved will realize while this 15 year olds death is tragic, it was unavoidable and in the best interest of the police officer(s) involved and their familes as well as the families of the other kids and faculty of the school.

Not a good situation to be in, but the right choice, nonetheless.

Ruth, that statement is so far out of wack, a 15 yr old not responsible! He made the choice to take that gun to school. He WAS responsible for his own actions. Maybe his parents should be questioned about how he obtained it, or if it was a family weapon. He might have gotten it from a friend or "off the street". But it was his choice, and he was responsible.

Ruth,

You are extraordinarily naive. When confronted with an armed person of ANY age the police do not have time to line up a shot like they would have if they were on a shooting range. It is sad it ended this way but if someone has a gun and raises it there's little choice.

Policeman, "STOP, DROP THE GUN YOU'RE POINTING AT ME AND STATE YOUR AGE BEFORE WE CAN PROCEDE WITH THIS INVESTIGATION".

Come on folks, it doesn't work that way. The origin of his gun is at fault and partially responsible for the kid's death. He may not have been of legal age, but that's not the cop's fault. Raise a deadly weapon and you're playing a deadly game no matter the age. Follow the source of the gun and try to prevent the next one. Duty called and the police answered as expected and trained.

so a 15 yr old isnt responsible for his behavior and shouldn't have shot him? I wonder if it made a difference to the gun that its handler was 15yrs old. Suppose the gun would have shot differently knowing the person was only fifteen. when it comes down to it, what difference does it make. If thats your reasoning, we should throw the doors open to all the kid jails and let all their killers out.

what bothers me more than the kid carrying the gun is the enabling excuses which seem to justify and pacify his behavior. My motto is this; if your going to live a criminal lifestyle, your just going to have to assume certain risks, including getting yourself shot...

Ruth, you are still the fool. Just because you own a gun does not make you proficient with it or even a good shot. Most officers get very little firearms training after their initial academy and very few are trained snipers. When you are faced with a person, regardless of age, who is pointing a weapon at you, you shoot for the largest part of the body, center mass. You watch too much t.v. You are right, a 15 year old kid isn't "legally" responsible. Unfortunately for him (and you) that only counts in entering into a contract and in a court room. Once he decided to bring a loaded weapon to school, he gained the responsbility of owning up to the consequences. Once he engaged the police, the consequence was being fatality shot. It's time parents get back to raising responsible young adults instead these exuse-ridden cry babies who say "I under 18, I am not responsible for my actions." Bologna!!

Ruth,

Ike: if you are a responsible gun owner or a LEO, you are supposed to be training with your firearms and, again, make every round count and hit where you intend them to hit.

I'm an Aquarius and a responsible gun owner. What they trained me to do was aim for the center mass. Not sure what firearms training you've had but they surely don't teach you to "wing" someone. Sure, sure, I didn't aim for the center mass all the time. I like practicing the double tap, aim for the head and neck. just admit it Ruth. You are anti-gun.

I have a child in middle school, he is 14. He has classmates that have been held back and so they are 15. Not sure where you people live, but some of these kids are grown men. 6' 5" 200 pounds is not out of the question.

I can say this with zero hesitation. If a person has a gun in his school and is prepared to take on the police, I want the threat removed by any means possible. Teens are irrational to begin with. They only think in the moment and that is what makes them very, very dangerous.

Further, my brother is a police officer. I want my brother to come home to his wife and daughter. I want my son to come home safely as well. If you point a gun at a policeman they won't wait to decide which arm or leg to shoot at, they will will fire. If not, they may die.

Remember Columbine? Virginia?

Ruth...with as much due respect as possible, you are the fool.

Just like alcohol, kids will find a way to get what they want...guns, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, etc. They *might* get it at home, from a friend, buy it illegally, whatever. Frankly, the issue at hand is the 15 year old GOT a gun and took it to school. Where he got it is an issue, but not the one at hand.

Obviously, some effort to GET the gun was made. Maybe he even loaded it himself. The kid made the decision to TAKE it to school. The cops showed up and he DID NOT put it down when instructed (and since you like to point out 'facts' that are NOT in the story, I admit that I make that assumption that the kid was ordered to drop the gun before being shot dead).

"LEO's" are trained to make every shot count and to use deadly force only where warranted. You have a gun and don't put it down when ordered...maybe make a move with the gun to point it towards the LEO or another innocent bystander...deadly force is warranted and will be used.

I think that you have a very skewed view of what law enforcement is all about if you think it's all 'Dirty Harry' or 'Shoot out at the O.K. Corral.'

Oh...and don't worry. No one is really out to take your gun from you. Most people just want gun owners to not be criminals and to be responsible for safely storing and handling their weapons.

I'm sure more details will come out about this kid, where the gun came from and exactly what the kid did to warrant getting shot dead.

Ruth's kidding, right?

Here is what a 15 year old can do.

On November 4, 1992, at 4:30 p.m., Technician Wohlers contacted a vehicle with two juvenile occupants for a traffic violation one mile East of Georgetown on Interstate 70. After calling for assistance, Wohlers was shot in the head by one of the juveniles. The suspects fled the scene before backup could arrive. At 7:00 p.m., the two juvenile suspects were arrested as they traveled from Georgetown to Denver. The car was later determined to be stolen. The juveniles were tried as adults and convicted. Marcus Fernandez pulled the trigger and was sentenced to life in prison. His accomplice, T.J. White, was sentenced to 32 years in prison. Wohlers succumbed to his injuries on November 5, 1992.

Age of who is holding the gun MAKES all the difference.

Tell Lyle Wohlers family that the age of his murderer makes a difference.

Ruth, one word, Columbine. Or Springfield. Or any of the other school shootings by boys this age or younger. At the point where the boy is standing in a school brandishing a weapon you have to assume deadly intent. Police are trained to aim for the largest body mass which is the upper body. It is a tragedy for sure and one which the boys family and the officers involved will have to live with, but better than the boy taking other innocent lives.

Ruth you seriouslt think that there were no kids and adults in that school in the floor and hiding in terror....get real. I am scared to learn that you HAVE a gun if you are that far out of touch with reality!!

This goes on daily out in the streets of cities like Houston, Oakland, Detrorit and Baltimore. Just to name a few. It is when they throw in the word "school" that the conversations change.

I will say, my eleven year old is an avid shooter and hunter. He knows and practices gun safety. If he ever went bad and brought a gun to school and then was shot by a cop when he pointed the gun at him....I would never blame the police for doing what had to be done...I would be glad the cop wasn't shot and killed. I would blame my son. People must take responsibility for their actions everyday. The government will never take my guns away like they did with my friends in England ...That's what I teach and preach...

Ruth, what scares me is that ignorant people like you are actually selected to serve on jury's. No wonder our justice system is in the mess it's in. I'm a retired 30 year veteran police officer and I know your kind to well.

Ruth, you're an idiot. Remember this, guns don't kill people,criminals with guns kill people and criminals come in all shapes,sizes and ages.Better him dead than him shooting one of your kids huh?

Ruthabagah, where did you come up with the idea that a 15 yr old pointing a gun at you is less dangerous than an adult pointing a gun at you???? That makes no sense at all.

Ruthabagah-825679

Age of who is holding the gun MAKES all the difference.

=========

.......It won't make a damn bit of difference to you if you're the one who gets killed.

Ruth..

how can a police officer justify shooting to kill a 14 year old?

age makes no difference....as a matter of fact a 15 year old is certainly old enough to understand that a school is no place for a gun. A 15 year old can certainly rationalize the importance of surrendering a fire arm to a police officer if asked to do so. Would you be so sympathetic if the 15 year old had shot another student, a teacher or an administrator?

Here is what the article should contain...

Was the 15 year old a gang member?

Was the 15 year old a Mexican citizen?

Was the 15 year old targeting someone in particular?

Where are the parents?

Ruthabaghah,

You need to scroll up and read my previous post about why officers do not shoot to wound or fire warning shots...

8th grade.... 13/14 year old? Where did he get the firearm? how can a police officer justify shooting to kill a 14 year old?

RUTH-I could spend all day quoting your dumbass comments but who has the time. So a bullet fired by a 14 year old into another child kills any less? Seriously, do you even believe the @!$%# you spewed? The officer should have maybe shot this prick kid in the arm, right? Yeah maybe you would try that shot but the rest of the world who has had to shoot someone knows it is called Lethal Force for a reason.

Maybe they should have called you so you could cuddle the gun away-what's one less moron in the world?

Way to go Brownsville

The New Yorker:

The New Yorker Online Only News Desk
Notes on Washington and the world by the staff of The New Yorker..« To-Do List: The Vote You've Been Waiting ForMainStock of the Town: Dominique Strauss-Kahn »July 28, 2011
Meet Mexico's Child Assassins
Posted by Alexis OkeowoHe has a slight build, skinny arms and legs, and a head almost too big for his body. His hair is dark and curly, in some photographs fluffed out into a giant halo around his lean, brown face. His eyes are hardened and inscrutable. When he leans into the camera, sometimes wearing a children's T-shirt, his mouth twists into a snarl and his features tighten with disdain. Edgar (El Ponchis) Jiménez Lugo is fifteen years old. And, as of this week, Lugo is a convicted killer, found guilty in a Mexican court of beheading four people as an assassin for the South Pacific Cartel.

I own a variety of guns and practise(I know I can't spell so don't freak out word police) on a regular basis. I in no way advocate abolishing guns but please pro gun folks don't act so happy to hear this kid was shot. There is nothing in this story to make me happy. Ya'll are all talking about the best way to have killed him instead of the obvisous "what makes a child do this?" You are making people like me look lunitic crazy.

Hey Ruth,

I do understand your points but I gotta go with Mike and Jessica on this one. Before we even get to the cops judgment, lets talk about how what the hell a 15 year old is doing in school with a firearm of ANY nature. I don't own a gun, but if I did, I'd go to whatever length needed to ensure that if I had a 15 year old that there'd be NO WAY he or she could get to it, even if that meant i had to lock it in a case, inside a safe, inside a bigger safe. Thr first problem that needs to be addressed is how that kid GOT the gun.

That being said, I'm not for cops shooting teenagers, but I sure ain't expecting a cop to say "oh he's only 15, I guess I better just stand here and let him shoot me then." What you refer to when you mention "trained marksmen" are military snipers. These folks have TIME to properly aim there shot and hit a specific target within inches. A cop with a gun pointed at him or her has less than ONE SECOND to react. I too wish the outcome could have been better, but I don't fault the cop for protecting themself and possibly other students that might have been killed had the cop not acted.

It was a PELLET GUN!!!! How idiotic some of your comments are is totally mind blowing. The kid was MURDERED by untrained, unprofessional mall cops.... It could have been your kid or mine.

The only idiotic comments were yours Ruth. Next time we'll tell the cops to identify the type of weapon before they shoot.

Ruth, if it was a child of YOURS in that school, the kids age wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference to you and if it was YOUR child that had gotten killed because the policeman had only shot to wound, YOU would be demanding to know why the officer didn't kill the shooter when he had the chance.

Pellet guns can kill too. Stop being an idiot, please.

Being called an idiot from Blue rose Of texas just made my day.... idiots are not made in TX: They are bred.

Face it loosers: you were wrong! You all Y'all... like a bunch of lemmings jumped to conclusions before knowing the fact.... This kid was EXECUTED.

And yes CGTRAV: I'd like the folks who are supposed to protect us TO IDENTIFY A THREAT BEFORE SHOOTING. Just like they taught me in during CSP training.

Ruth, other students said that the kid yelled he was going to kill everyone. The police gave him quite a few warnings to put the gun down and he refused.

Everything you have posted is utterly insane, so go take two aspirin and call your doctor in the morning.

And as for the arguments that the fact that he was wielding a pellet pistol instead of a real pistol should have prevented the officers from firing:

An imitation pellet gun is intentionally designed to look like a real firearm. Try google image searching "glock pellet gun" and then just searching "Glock 18". See the similarity? If they are that difficult to distinguish at close range with an unobstructed view, how in blazes is a LEO supposed to tell when it is in someone's hands and being gestured in a threatening manner? Any sane and rational person would feel a deadly threat with either of these pointed at them, and the officers can't wait to see if the gun kills them before they engage a suspect.

"how in blazes is a LEO supposed to tell when it is in someone's hands and being gestured in a threatening manner?

One word for you: Training. In addition, when you are clad in ballistic vest, covering your target from 3 different angles, you have to pause and think about what you see before pulling the trigger.

I wouldn't be surprised if we learn that these mall cops did in fact shoot a surrendering 15 year old.

It doesn't look like a suicide by cops, it looks like an unjustified shooting.

Obviously you lack the ability to think no matter how long you pause.

Boy if there was ever someone for the readers here to flag as "No Value" you are it.

@ CGTRAV: Why don't you f..lag yourself? Typical: you don't like the truth, so you are trying to shut me down.

If your 3 lines are a reflection of what you brain can generate, you are probably as smart as a vegetable.

Ruthabagah.....

It was a PELLET GUN!!!! How idiotic some of your comments are is totally mind blowing. The kid was MURDERED by untrained, unprofessional mall cops.... It could have been your kid or mine.

How idiotic....for a parent to give access to a pellet gun that looks like a real gun. How idiotic for a kid to take that gun to school on the same day he assaults another kid in class. How stupid for the kid to raise that gun at police officers. How idiotic is absolutely true.

Honestly, I spent summers in that area and I can guarantee these are not mall cops. They are well trained and prepared for the eventuality that they will be shot at by a variety of the least of our society. They are prepared to face a gun and they are very familiar with the lowest of the low in the community as well as being trained to understand the very diverse communities that make up Brownsville. These guys are prepared to face off against the cartels...they are certainly not Paul Blart Mall Cop....

Let's be clear...I know what he was holding now and well it is the same 45 styled pellet hand gun that my sons wanted for Christmas. The answer was no for this very reason and we commenced to reteaching gun safety with the 12 year olds that need to understand the world...there needs to be no confusion about what a child is holding in their hands. A pellet gun looks like a pellet gun, a rifle looks like a riffle and an Ozzie looks like and Ozzie. Neither my boys or my daughter would ever take a weapon or weapon look alike to school. That is just absurd and well at least "we" teach our children better with a whole lot of common sense. Although, there are some pretty raunchy people at my daughters school and I did entertain purchasing a purse mace for her for self-defense. But then she is ROTC and a brown belt and can manage herself.

As for this young man....he was well out of his element of reason. What do you think would happen if he had pulled that particular weapon on a gang member or a Cartel member in his own community....he would be just as dead but no so humanely.

You might consider teaching yours to have a bit of respect for the community around them and well the legal authority when it comes to fire arms...they are not children,s toys even if they are sold as such....They require respect from the user as well as a reasonable amount of commonsense before the safety comes off.

@TXMOM32 as much as I agree with most of your comment, and I find them reasonable, you are not considering a couple of fact that these "trained" officer missed:

1. This was a 15 year old in a middle school
2. He was surrounded 3 to 1 by trained officer wearing ballistic vest
3. According to witnesses, he was NOT pointing his "Weapon" at anybody

My point is, and always was, that officers had OPTIONS that they did not choose to pursue.

I hope there is a formal investigation on this shooting, because what appeared to me is that: LE Officers rushed to the conclusion that they had an armed gunman in a school, did not follow protocol, shot the alleged gunman down without proper threat assessment.

At the end of the day there is a 15 year old dead, a family grieving and no clear reason for this.

Finally your point about" What do you think would happen if he had pulled that particular weapon on a gang member or a Cartel member in his own community....he would be just as dead but no so humanely." There is no humanity in being shot like an animal for no reason. Police officer are supposed to serve and protect, not shoot if they feel they are in danger.

Ruth you are funny.....

Ruthabagah-825679

so which is it?

if we learn that these mall cops did in fact shoot a surrendering 15 year old.

OR

Police officer are supposed to serve and protect,

Here are some DETAILS from another site:

About 20 minutes elapsed between police receiving a call about an armed student and shots being fired, according to police and student accounts. Authorities declined to share what the boy said before he was shot.

A recording of police radio traffic posted on KGBT-TV's website indicates that officers responding to the school believed the teen had a handgun. An officer is heard describing the teen's clothes and appearance, saying he's "holding a handgun, black in color." The officer also said that from the front door, he could see the boy in the school's main office.

Less than two minutes later, someone yells over the radio "shots fired" and emergency crews are asked to respond. About two minutes later, someone asks where the boy was shot, prompting responses that he was shot in the chest and "from the back of the head."

I have questions on the shot in the back of the head but it does sound like they determined there was a gun present and they did NOT simply shoot on sight.

Radio traffic

Ruthabaugh....

What you seem to be neglecting is the community in which this event happened...and a bit of reason...

1) a 15 year old in any community holding what appears to be a handgun at a police officer will probably be shot.

2) Even with the vests there are vulnerable areas not covered that can result in injury.

3) The only witness accounts that I have read were that of the officers and that of students that witnessed this boy punch another in the face and that of student claiming that he stated he would shoot them all...so how many people were congregated in this hall at the time of the show down to witness the event?

4) It is frigging downtown Brownsville...not downtown Providence or downtown Kansas City. This is a City that connects the US to Mexico and in many ways holds the same lack of value for human life as Mexico. This is a part of the city that your neighbor is as likely to be a Mexican National as an American National. This is a part of the city that is tremendously self-segregated from the American culture. Complete with gangs, lower cartel figures, and those who will live the Mexican way of life without regard for the police force because this is the society they wish to propagate in America. They do not learn English, they do not respond to authority of law unless it benefits them personally, and they will drain the society of social welfare while many, not all, earn ill gotten gains.

5) The police involved have already received death threats, a common occurrence in Mexico when you do something the cartels or gangs don't like....so how was this kid connected....did you know in Mexico the Cartels often recruit young people (12-16) to do their illegal bidding because the law will not be so harsh on them.

6) The Brownsville police department, INS and other law enforcement in Cameron County have a very difficult task...their job is to assure the residents of the community that the who mess in Mexico with kidnappings, murders and other heinous acts common to Mexico do not thrive on this side of the bridge.

I have family down there and have spent a whole lot of time in the valley. I have wonderful memories and know many great and gracious people from the area, but it has been turned into the front line of a war zone and someone has to do a very difficult job to protect those living in the community....that may even include shooting an armed teenager to protect a school full of children...the type of weapon is immaterial if the officers feel an imminent threat and if the gunman does not relent.

cgtrav:"Ruth you are funny....." at least I am doing it on purpose.... You can't help it.

True for me it's natural.

Because if trolling is your sense of humor it certainly isn't natural.

Right and you know this child personally and have mind reading abilities. Why the hell aren't you rich and famous?

Do you have mind reading abilities also....to know they aren't rich and famous? Maybe your mind isn't working today and they are both rich & famous!

Ruth-

Not legally responsible? So, if he had gotten out of this alive, there would have been no punishment? I would buy that for a five year old who happened to pick up a gun and didn't know what it was or that it was real, but not a fifteen year old. We need to start teaching kids from day one that there are consequences to our actions.

a 15 year old is not legally "responsible"

Ruth, in 2008, a 15 yo boy was shot and killed by a 14 year old class mate. He is now serving 21 years in prison. I guess that makes him legally responsible, doesn't it?

"gunman" is too easy of a term to swallow.

it's "gunkid" in this case.

Obviously, the police protection and the protection of innocents must be their primary concern, and let's just hope their actions were truly warranted. It's a tragedy enough even under those cicumstances.

What's sad is now the policeman has to live with the fact he had to shoot a 15 year old.

Too bad, can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. And FYI he didn't just shoot him...he killed him, as in dead, six feet under, pushing up daisies, taking a dirt nap.

Mike757:"Parenting skills....this country has none"

Yes, Mike, your pathological feelings make that quite apparent to the extent that your statement is implicitly redundant. I hope those cops have to wake up every morning with anxiety and guilt and remorse and eventually do to themselves what they did to this kid. We will all be safer for it.

"He [they] 'had to' shoot a 15 year old". That is almost without a doubt the cops' feeling. But instead of 'had to', wanted to is more likely. What kind of workers are these that they could not figure out a way to disarm this kid without using their guns? Chicken-shiat workers. Punks worse than the kid. Sociopaths. "Confronted" is how their technique is described. Almost certainly from a safe distance with no thought to disarming the kid, just shouting at him, confusing and alarming him, and as soon as he reached for the piece to put it down, executed him. How many times was the kid hit? Want to bet it was 'multiple' times? From 'multiple' weapons? How many times have we seen this scenario before?

If anyone else working with the public were as incompetent as our police, they would not be working long. We have been condoning a shoot first policy in this country for a long time. We have been hiring bullies and punks and 'authority addicts' who are cowards at heart and covering up for their incompetencies of character and courage. This has a 'feedback' effect, Mike, which is what proves deadly to the 'good' cops out there. People begin to expect psychopathic behavior from cops and react accordingly. These bullying cops are especially brutal with kids, treat them with complete disrespect, and build anger and resentment into them. These kids are literally trained to expect the worst and, again, react accordingly. The good cops know who these incompetents among them are who make their own jobs more difficult but do nothing about it. In this, they are especially incompetent because they contribute to their own risk on the street by allowing the sociopaths amongst them to sow anger, resentment, and hatred in the people they must work with.

What is your feeling, Mike, when you see a police officer? Are you more careful? Do you feel you need to act less naturally than you normally do? Do you even feel a little anxiety? These are induced feelings and are exactly opposite what you should feel when you see someone who presumably is there to "serve and protect" you. They want you to feel afraid. Kids, especially, hate feeling afraid because they have yet to let their own self-respect be ground out of them. Slowly over time most of them will become like you, unthinking, kneejerk slouches. Maybe this kid is better off, certainly better off than you are at this time.

We had another of these just the other day, didn't we? Except it was a kid who we had brutalized ("trained") and used as a murderer. He was found in a tee shirt and one shoe, face down in freezing water. We killed him and we killed the ranger, Mike, with this same tolerance of brutality. Good kids don't react well to killing innocent people and they get a little crazy, part of what we are calling PTSD. Other than the notches on the cops' guns, these cops will feel nothing really about murdering this kid. And, clearly, neither do you really. The word for these cops and for you and all your ilk here is 'monster', Mike, monster. When we start executing our own kids, we become monsters. And monsters beget monsters, fully explaining: "Parenting skills....this country has none."

Parenting skills are only 50% of the equation... Decision making and thinking processes are an individual thing.

Unfortunately, the youth of today (born 1990 or later) have poor to little coping skills and were brought up in an age that made it OK to question everyone and everything, not take to responsibility, to always blame others for their own inappropriate actions, indifferent feelings and bad decisions.

This generation also and always acts as if they are owed something and everything, when it's really earned. This generation also thinks itself invincible and glorifies anything shocking, immoral and will do anything to emulate corrupt pop- culture "icons" in order to define themselves.

This generation is also the 1st American generation brought up in the "everyone's a winner" liberal nightmare and quite frankly cannot handle rejection or failure and learn how to transform these situations into making one's self better.

This is the sad, pathetic and lazy generation that will be taking care of people like myself in their 40's and 50's and running the nation in the next 20-30 years... I am truly scared and hold ZERO hope for the future.

I wouldn't say this country has bad parenting skills. That's kinda takin the easy way out of this, blame the parents.

I'd say instead that this country's family values have plummeted, but that's partly because society values money more than it value's family. If a family didn't have to work so many long hours and could spend more time with their family, we would likely see less of this kind of thing happen. Our government has done a good job of turning us into little worker bees, who work until we die.

Parenting skills....this country has none.

You know, there were 750 other students who didn't bring a gun to school.

How about the fact that he probably stopped a massacre!!

William, are you really a Marine?

tiredofhypocrites-794827

It was my 'young man's finishing school' there, pogue. My 17th Birthday till my 21st with some time over for a vacation I took in the Cherry Point Brig. Got promoted a lot. Made PFC three times, finished up a L/Cpl. I'm a Smedley Darlington Butler Marine, but that would mean nothing to you. And you? Squid?

William you need to stop watching so many bad cop movies and make sure you are keeping up on your medication.

But if you do honestly believe these three cops went in wanting to kill a kid then I don't really know how to tell you.

And the only time I change my behavior when a cop is around is when I am driving, usually because I don't want a ticket (for disobeying traffic laws)....don't have any idea what that has to do with anything.

William B-

No Offense intended but you made PFC (E-2) THREE times? To end up an L/Crp (E-3) after four years is nothing to write home about....IMHO. You must have issues following the regs. and orders to loose rank in the first place.

But at least you had the sense of duty to serve your country and I salute you for that. It would do the young people of today a world of good to serve one enlistment term in a branch of the military. Make them appreciate what they have. But too many of them could not past the ASVAB let alone the physical.

The Corps promotions seems rather easy compare to the Air Force's promotion structure. I was made Airman First Class out of Basic (E-2) and ended as a E-6. The entire AF promotion structure is based on points. You get so many points for time in grade, time in rank, how well you scored on your job knowledge test, how well you did on your general AF knowledge test and so many points for awards / ribbons you were given. I missed out making E-7 three times = twice by less then a half point, and the last time by a mere 1/8 point. Disappointment was my middle name back then. Fifteen years of active duty and it was time to go...I had enough. I loved my job, I loved the travel, I loved serving my country but the BS was deepening and my family needed me more so I took the VSA offer in 1992.

anyone else working with the public were as incompetent as our police, they would not be working long. We have been condoning a shoot first policy in this country for a long time. We have been hiring bullies and punks and 'authority addicts' who are cowards at heart and covering up for their incompetencies of character and courage. This has a 'feedback' effect, Mike, which is what proves deadly to the 'good' cops out there. People begin to expect psychopathic behavior from cops and react accordingly. These bullying cops are especially brutal with kids, treat them with complete disrespect, and build anger and resentment into them. These kids are literally trained to expect the worst and, again, react accordingly. The good cops know who these incompetents among them are who make their own jobs more difficult but do nothing about it. In this, they are especially incompetent because they contribute to their own risk on the street by allowing the sociopaths amongst them to sow anger, resentment, and hatred in the people they must work with

I find your rush to judgement that the three Cops beyond the pale as far as ridiculous statements go. Yes, I know, that is not exactly what you wrote but that is what I read and interpreted as your meaning. The Cops in this story did not have on their Personal Bucket List : shoot and kill a teenager armed with a pellet gun. My Father-in-law was A MARINE. He was in on the initial assault of Iwo Jima and saw things that we can only imagine. He was also a CHIP motorcycle Cop. He rode the old suicide clutch Harley and was one of the first to start wearing the new Highway Patrol skid lid instead of the plain hat. He rode the LA area for close to 10 years. He was the highway patrol State Pistol Champion for several years back in the 50s but he never wanted to shoot anyone. If anyone could shot the kid in the leg he probably could have. But you forget, that is a small area and the femoral artery runs down the leg. Even a small nick can cause profuse bleeding and if it is severed death is assured in minutes because the victim will bleed out is a matter of minutes.

I have never have an issue with a Cop I encounter in the States. Yes, I have been pulled over a few times in 50 years of driving...mainly for being a lead foot in an area I was not familiar with. But I have always talked my way out out the ticket for good reasons and by not being belligerent. I was always polite to to the Officer and explained my confusion about the speed limit in that area. (I was driving 65 in a 55mph zone because the 55Mph sign was hidden by over grown tree branches. Next time I came through that area the branches had been trimmed back. I was on a road trip and according to the Cop driving 83 mph in a 70 mph zone...my speedometer had be replaced two weeks prior and I had also replace the tires with a slightly larger tire then the OEM right before i took my road trip. I was not aware it was off until then. (I had the repair paperwork in my glove box still.) I was able to get out of the ticket for that reason but you can bet I slowed down until I could get the speedometer re-calibrated.

And yes, there are some bad Cops out there. My Great niece was married briefly to one...but the vast majority of Cops are "good" and face daily trials and tribulations in order to do their jobs of protecting and serving. You ignore the number of cops who lost their lives protecting a civilian. For Ex:

Arlington, Texas, a 38-year-old man who fatally shot his ex-girlfriend and a rookie police officer before killing himself was a registered sex offender for a crime committed in Washington state. Arlington Police Officer Jillian Michelle Smith was killed as she tried to protect an 11-year-old girl from Nettles, her mother’s ex-boyfriend. The girl was unharmed. (I knew this woman and she was so dedicated and excited about her life and her job. The world lost another good person when she was killed.)

Dec. 15, 2011: West Valley City, Utah police Officer Kevin Peck on Monday initially crawled beneath the bus to check the pulse of 24-year-old Aryann Smith, when the young woman suddenly grabbed his hand and told him not to leave her alone.

Ignoring the possible danger, Peck, a nine-year veteran of the department, remained beneath the Utah Transit Authority bus, holding Smith’s hand until medical personnel arrived. Smith suffered two broken legs that reportedly required surgery to repair.

The list of LEOs like these two goes on and on. This is the caliber of people that makes up a vast majority of the LEOs. I have never met or talked with a Cop who wanted to draw their gun. If you encounter attitude from a Cop then perhaps you should check your own attitude. Cops are trained to read body language and expect trouble when they pick up on the attitude.

PFC is E-3 so he equals an E-9.

:p

If you are saying because he made PFC three times he was equal to an E9, I think you need to go back to school and need to brush up on your ranks and multiplication. E-2 x 3 would make him an E-6 (Staff Sgt) Hardly equal to an E-9 (SgtMaj) Regardless of the branch of service, only a very small number of people achieve the rank of E-9.

He deserves respect for having served...even if he did repeat a rank three times. As I said earlier - I think in the Corps rank is easy to make compared to the Air Force. But it also appears to be also easy to loose. Depending on when and where he served that could explain the yo-yo ranking.

Anyone who chose to serve deserves respect for their part in protecting us. If they were a professional potato peeling in the mess hall or a Commander of a combat unit...each had a role to fill and coupld not do one without the other.

For Want of a Nail:

For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

In the Military even "nails" are important.

E-2 x 3 would make him an E-6 (Staff Sgt)

You left out the time he made Lance Corporal which brings it back up to E-9. It's an old joke, relax.

and so I did..silly me! Relaxing on my mark: 3 - 2 - 1...execute.!!!! (Must be a Marine joke? I have never heard it before.).

C NJ Mom,

Maybe he's a gangbanger??

My teen sons will tell you that they can get anything they want. Anytime they want it. I hope I have raised them right and that they never make that choice.

But inevitably, it is their choice and they have been told that!

He could have got it from some where else, but it's likely he got it from home. The parents should have had the weapons secured, but I'm sure that preaching this now is completely insignificant. If this is the case, the parents know full well that their actions, or inaction, is what caused the death of their child. They will have to live with that knowledge for the rest of their lives. I just hope that other people can learn from this. :(

The gun could have come from home, but also a multitude of places. And guns, like alcohol and drugs...where there is a will there is a way to get them.

I would suspect that this situation was not an 'impluse' by the kid. He likely did not wake up today and think, 'geez, I'll go grab dad's gun, load it up, take it to school and get into a showdown with the cops and when they get really serious, I'll pretend I'm going to shot them. Later we will all sit down over a soda and laugh about it."

CNJ..those things are easy for kids to get today, regardless of where they are from. Guns, drugs, liquor, cars, whatever.

I don't know all the details, but I commend the cops in preventing a potential Columbine or VA tech from happening again.

I'm not debating the cops shooting this armed kid, but what I am saying is guns should not be left accessible. And if it's stolen - you can safely bet it was taken in a burglary. And if it was locked up with a trigger guard in a locked gun safe, it would have been just one more impediment or safeguard to keep it out of criminal or children's hands.

I recall that one time when my husband and I were looking for our first home, during a visit to a house for sale, we found a gun in a closet readily visable, just lying on a shelf with the handle sticking out from under some clothing. People just are not thinking about the weapons that they have and how easy it would be for the weapons to "disappear".

The authorities will find out where the gun came from, and then we'll debate that.

Sad, but true on where you can find a gun: my dad's wife (my stepmother) died and he was going through her things. He came across 2 guns that he didn't know she had. He panicked and called one of his friends, an ambulance driver, because he thought he was going to get in trouble for the guns being in the apartment and didn't know if he should contact the cops. This is what his friend told him to do:

Drive down the highway and toss the guns onto the side of the road in the grass.

This came from an ambulance driver on how to discard guns! Thankfully, he mentioned it to his ex-wife (my mother) and told him: first, you're friend is a jackass, and second, call the cops and explain to them about you finding the guns, etc. My dad did this and didn't have any problems with the cops.

Hell, my brother brought home a bb gun (which my mom confiscated soon after) that looked like the real gun with just an orange cap on it. He found it while in the woods while walking with his friend in PA.

Here's something else: when I was in school and kid was going to bring a large knife (I will say carving knife since I think that is the term....Michael Meyers' knife from the Halloween series is the kind I am talking about) and then just across the street, he stopped and just tossed the knife into someone's bushes. Well, someone found that knife a few hours later and called the cops. They found out who it belonged to immediately because the kid's family's last name was engraved on it. The cops came in to question him, he confessed. As for the reason he was bringing the knife to school, I don't know. And I am hearing a lot about ages being mentioned here, so I will tell you this: he was 14 and this happened in 8th grade. So spare me about age playing a role.

I missed the part in the article that he brought the gun from his house. Good possibility he did but possibly he did not. But then you're 100% sure because you can see things with your crysal ball huh.

I grew up down here and it is common for 10 year old boys to get their first rifles before hunting season. There are so many handguns floating around down here it is like an armed camp. I guarantee some knucklehead is going to advocate allowing high school kids to carry concealed weapons. They came very close to allowing them on college campuses during the last legislature. By the way, the one place guns aren't allowed: The state capitol building.

Jeff

I guarantee some knucklehead is going to advocate allowing high school kids to carry concealed weapons.

only the anti gun types are going to make that sort of claim.

By the way, the one place guns aren't allowed: The state capitol building.

Please see page 31 as to where it is ILLEGAL to bring a gun in the state of TX. Schools are at the TOP of the list. Please in the future note (sarcasm) when that is the intent.

"There are so many handguns floating around down there it is like an armed camp." BS!!

Jeff, no more so than any other state including California and New York.

Just another "I grew upo down there and got out idiot." Glad your gone, we don't need you!

They came very close to allowing them on college campuses during the last legislature.

I use to carry in college at a time when they weren't banned. I never shot anyone either. In fact, it seems that only once the bans started to happen did firearms become a problem on campus.

RichardHarrow, you are a true nut case!!!

@richardharrow

What!!!

lets hear you say that if some one with a gun shows up at a school near you or your family!!

Most police officers never want to shoot anyone (if for no other reason the paperwork) on or off duty after all police officers have a family also and they know what responsibility is

A 15 year old is murdered and people are rejoicing. Weird. And I thought you gun nuts want people to carry guns everywhere.

I got my gun certification AT school when I was 12. I thought you all said guns are not dangerous if you are responsible. He might have been a responsible licensed gun carrying kid. Then the Wild Bill with his shiny star shows up and shoots the kid in the back. We don't know anything but the fact a cop went to a school and killed a kid. It sounds like a horror movie.

and the kid did bring a gun to school. haha. JFC.

Either way-***SCORE ONE FOR THE MURDER STICKS***

They aren't just used for opening windows anymore

richardharrow,

I'll bet your an ex-con...

Con, like Conservative? No, never. I bet you ARE a Con.

Now arrest the parents that allow a 15 year old access to a gun,

SIE, you don't know that is how he got the gun. Gee here is a novel idea to all the armchair quarterbacks thinking they know how he got the gun. Why don't we just wait until all the facts come out?

"It's so crazy, it just might work!" (Dana Carey from The Master Of Disguise)

I bet that cop couldn't wait to use his gun to shoot and kill somebody. The most dangerous people with guns are cops. Now arrest the cop

Richard, you certainly have the right name.

Thanks, If your name was LAMERESPONSES then you would have the right name. Go watch another bad movie.

But we should wait for the facts to come out before people start spreading rumors that the cops shot the kid in the back. ;)

My friend was murdered by a cop when he was 15. Its a joke how these trigger happy cops can shoot anybody and nobody bats an eye.

Your comments are suspiciously like someone who saw "''West Side Story" at an impressionable age and never got over it, or a former gang member whose"buddy" got killed by a cop...good,, bad, or indifferent. The cop in your eyes is bad since he killed your bud. In your former teenage wisdom. Older now? Hope you aren't an ex-con. (And that stands for convict, not conservative as you know.) frankly of all thepeople we can do without I would suggest kids runnng arond with guns,, be they gang or not-gang, not the cops. Not that all cops are good or perfect, but who else is going to protect the law abidiing citizens when it comes down to it? Sure as hell not the teens with gun or gangs or the growed up ex-prisoners or criminals or crazies or shell-shocked (PTSD) vets who haven't yet been caught that are robbing, raping orotherwise hartming other innocent people.

there is no reason to carry a gun to school! the police probable prevent a massacre!

Yeah with his Red Rider Pellet Gun, he'll shoot every ones eyes outs. Lol!

Please!

The facts are coming out and possibly even a tape if the school had cameras. I'm sure the cops said what was necessary to cover their asses in this instance. The backlash of shooting a 15 year old without just cause would be horrible. As if this isn't horrible enough.

I agree that the cops need to protect the other studens, but it probably took the cops about 5 minutes to get to the school, during that time this kid didn't fire a single round at anybody. So how come the cops didn't talk him down or just shoot him in the leg instead of killing him?

No doubt another proud nra honors graduate from rick perry middle school.

Hey Tim, problem solved!!

Even shooting a kid in the leg can kill them. The police gave that kid plenty of warnings to put the gun down but he didn't listen and faced with that situation, as well as the horrible memories of other kids shooting schoolmates, the police made the correct decision. Sad but true. I feel bad for the family of that kid but I can't feel bad for the kid.

You have no clue what you're talking about.

Bob, the article says he engaged the officers. Now that could mean he was pointing the gun at them. And if that's the case and he did have a gun and was acting in a threatening manner towards the officers or the other kids, they had every right to protect themselves and the public. You would probably be one of those stupid parents that would blame the police if they just let the kid start shooting until they opened up and still blame the police because in this case they acted to prevent a perceived threat.

perhaps the only real answer is, he had @!$%#ty parents who didnt raise him to understand the consequences of holding a loaded gun on school property in this day and age.

and sadly, in america...parents get the option to be @!$%#ty parents and set their kids up for this kind of failure.

if your kid at 15 doesnt understand how DUMB and DANGEROUS this was, for any reason what so ever...perhaps, maybe just maybe, this planet is better off without that person around?

Cold, yes...but damn...why are we trying to KEEP DUMBING DOWN AMERICA?

"how could the kid possibly know what he was in store for"...really? really?

how could we possibly have 15 years old walking our halls who DONT UNDERSTAND?

Kid raises gun to fire at cop, cop fires first. Kid never gets a shot off, only shot fired is from police. Now tell me, if someone points a gun at a cop should the cop have to wait for him to fire first?

Also please elaborate on how this is typical Texas. Do you really think that Littleton police officers wouldn't have shot Harris and Klebold given the chance?

An 8th grade kid is just as dangerous as anybody else with a gun. Even if he didn't fire at anybody, the fact that he HAD a gun in school made him dangerous, and he very well may have pointed the gun at police which caused an escalation. Wait for the investigation before jumping to conclusions.

The worst part about your rainbow world is when a moth farts.

You know that if they gave the kid the chance to shoot first then one of them could have been killed or another student. You don't ask questions when someone pulls a gun on you. That is why the kids today do stuff like this is because they think that no one will hold them accountable for their actions. According to your thinking then anytime someone pulls a gun on you then you should ask them to sit down and tell you why they are about to kill you. Yeah this makes a lot of sense. Really, this is your way of thinking. You would make the perfect person to be robbed.

WHY his actions cost him his life? Easy, he was holding a gun in a school. Perfect reason to me. While I feel sorry for his family, I'm glad he was the only one injured.

And now comes Bob Redhawk, the idiot. Bob, if someone were pointing a gun at you and you had the responsibility of the safety of a school and its occupants, are you going to wait for a shot to be taken at you before you respond? I seriously doubt it. You are the one hiding under the desk in the first place, pissing yourself.

bob redhawk-kill first and THEN try to figure out WHY that person acted the way they did

Would you prefer that the policeman be killed first? The courts, thanks to chuckleheads like yourself, are run by judges that are consistently in favor of the criminals rights, not the rights of the citizens. Until YOU are in this situation and confronted by someone that is willing to take YOUR life be thankful it wasn't YOU that had to make this split-second decision.

Where in the article does is say that "no shots were fired by the gunman"? In fact, it says that the student "engaged police". Albeit, maybe he engaged them in some witty dialog with clever banters going back and forth until the police had enough and shot him. Look, if he engaged the police, they had every right to shoot him.

Bob, you don't even have a clue what you are talking about, you just assume that all police are idiots, the fact is they go thru training exercises to prevent taking life for no reason.

Wow! What an intelligent comment! I love it when people generalize an entire state based on an ill-conceived ideology. (SARCASM)

Did you even give a moment's pause before posting this? Not that I'm shocked or anything - I see posts similar to this way too often. The fact that people still lump an ENTIRE state together based on a few things they have heard/mis-heard truly astounds me.

As for the rest of the people who are griping about this student being only 15 - would you have done something like this at 15? Didn't you know better? I bet you did. Would it make a difference if this child were in a gang - or as someone so aptly pointed out - was pointing a gun at your loved one? Might that change your tune? It does for me.

As the daughter of a slain police officer and the wife a current deputy sheriff - this was a completely appropriate action. Deadly force against deadly force, kill or be killed. These officers have family and friends as well - it doesn't make the student's life more valuable, especially when their actions indicate they have no respect for life. Period.

I would love to see you inthe same position as the Policeman who fired the shot Ed. Hindsight is 20/20. Do you honestly think you would have just allowed the situation to "hopefully" play out for the best when a fifteen year old kid/man was holding a gun aimed squarely at you?. I think not. This is a typical Liberal mindset that because of the victims's age, nationality, social upbringing, etcc. is the reason for this tragedy and not the fault and responsibility of an unstable teenager who made a very wrong decision. You can't tell me that in today's world, this kid didn't realize what he was doing was going to end badly in one way or another. Stop blaming everyone but the responsible party. At 15, unless you are mentally retarded, you know the difference between right and wrong and that you will deal with consequences from your actions.

Don great post!!!! You wrote what I was thinking

Bob, what world do you live in? What planet? It can't be earth. Why should an officer have charged filed against him when he was doing his job? He stopped someone with a loaded weapon who could have killed other students, or teachers. Even though it's not in the article, i'm sure they told him to lower his weapon before they shot him. I've had a loaded weapon put to my forehead, and I can only say that it was a terrifying experience. When I see anyone raise a gun, I duck for cover. In most of our cities there are gangbangers shooting up neighborhoods, just became they felt like it.

unless you are mentally retarded, you know the difference between right and wrong and that you will deal with consequences from your actions.

Don, I used to work with mentally challagned people and they did know the difference between right and wrong. I wish I could really tell you what I thought of your statement, but I don't need a COH violation.

you can only be so responsible for things you own...after a while you have to realize when its a good idea to even own something like a gun in the first place.

Ok, so lets say this kid stole his parents car and drove it into a school bus pull of kids, would you blame the parents and scream for automobile control since vehicles are responsible for more deaths than guns in this country.

no you would be... you were the one saying parents werent responsible enough about it... not me... remember?

I said some parents have to realize when they can be only so responsible for somethign that they need to just not have a gun in the house in the first place.

lol cars are obviously different because they arent originally designed to be battering rams.

and again you were the one crying where were the parents.. not me.

Did you just try to compare a car to a handgun? Seriously?

Cars aren't purchased for the sole purpose of killing things.

I've owned more guns than cars. I've never bought either one with the thought of killing someone in mind.

I am in no way advocating gun control.... but if were going to be a country that has guns... it needs to be done responsibly... as silly as a comparison of a automobile a item of necessity to transport, also should be used responsibly and even in some cases held liable for accidents... A gun a lethal weapon designed for the sole purpose to maim and kill... If your going to own one you should be responsible for doing everything you can to make sure that gun is secured.... IF this was the parents gun, they should be held liable for wreck-less endangerment of a child... In no situation should a child have access to a lethal weapon... more often than not access results something tragic than it does preventive.

It's the poster for needing to past a test before you breed....But some parents could do everything right and never even have a gun in their home...If the kid is a troubled or just a bad kid he or she can make bad decision that could cost them their life....Back in high school I had a gun rack in my truck with my single shot 12 gauge in it just like allot of my friends...never thought about killing anyone and the other students never gave it a second thought...Times have changed for sure

Scott, I agree with you there. You need a license to have a dog, but any idiot can have a child.

But we don't know if this kid took the gun from home or got it on the streets. Either way it was HIS responsibility. No one elses.

Wow! If the SOLE PURPOSE of guns is to maim and kill, then I've been misusing guns for most of my adult life because I use my guns to shoot at inanimate targets as a sport; I enjoy collecting guns; and I enjoy refinishing them to like-new condition. Once, I even used a gun for self-defense; just by displaying my gun to a large man who was threatening me, I managed to send him fleeing into the night.

So, I guess I should be hauled off to prison for misusing all the guns I ever owned because I never shot or maimed a single person with my guns, whose ONLY DESIGNED PURPOSE IS TO MAIM AND KILL!

Just because a sword could be used to slice ham doesn't mean its a ham knife and not a weapon made to kill and mame...The man fled because its a deadly weapon.. not because you use it for target practice. you can achieve the same target practice with any projectile... if you pulled out a paintball gun... he wouldn't of ran.. instead of using imaginary situational scenarios to justify stupidity of the carelessness of the gun owner... why not demand people keep lethal weapons secure and be responsible with lethal weapons... not leave it out in the open where anyone can take it and make a bad decision... I am a gun owner.. i keep my guns locked up in a safe bolted to the floor of my bedroom closet... I don't have to worry about my kid or anyone taking my gun and killing people because I'm a responsible gun owner. How is personal responsibility so hard or a concept for some people?

MY ultimate point is that if this kid did not have access to a gun, he would not have taken it to school, he wouldn't of pointed it at police, and he wouldn't of been shot and killed...

This kid did not get this gun legally, someone acted irresponsibly and left it where he could get it... or even less likely sold it on the black market that enabled this kid to buy it.... either way someones irresponsibility directly resulted in this kids death, he could not have made the decision to take the gun to school otherwise...

So spit out situational scenarios and go blblbblblah all you want those are the facts... people need to be held accountable for their lack of responsibility.

Ban handguns and automatic weapons.

takenaka

And what would that have accomplished in THIS situation? The kid had a FAKE gun and would have had a FAKE gun. He would have still brandished it and ended up just as DEAD. Darwinism at its' best/worst.

ive read plenty of stories when its also been the exact opposite... shootings happen when there are no crimes committed because of some idiot hick who has no real training with a gun.

There were two men at the Gabby Giffords shooting that were carrying concealed legally and didn't draw their weapons.

smartest thing said here so far. That's because it's difficult for the police who are trained to handle a gun in crisis situations to choose the proper action.

Yet we continue to have yayhoos that imagine they can "shoot a gun from someone's hand" or "take down the threat" 'cuz they're packin'

I swear, most people can't handle a cell phone responsibly and you want to give them a gun?

Give me a break.

Buffale51- having a legal right to conceal and carry a weapon and not use it in such a scenario... there is a word for that.

Buffale51, actually one guy did, and almost shot the wrong person. From what I read anyway.

Actually, I'd be interested in reading "so many stories" where ordinary citizens with concealed weapons stopped a crime. Why do you post a link to a few? My guess is for every article you can find about that, you can find 10 where a kid took his parents gun and shot someone with it.

Krazymop liberal...Upon noticing a car following him into his neighborhood late one night, a homeowner had a bad feeling. Once he turned into his driveway, the car crept by, turned around and again drove by before stopping. Then he heard someone running up the driveway. He retrieved a pistol from the glove box and got out of the vehicle just in time to spot two suspects sprinting toward him. They were armed and demanded cash. “It was all probably a second,” he explained. “It was just so fast.” The homeowner aimed and fired at one of his assailants, killing him. The second man fled. Though the suspects could have killed him, the homeowner harbors no ill will. “My prayers go out to the family,” he said. “That was still someone’s child.”

American Rifleman....

Out of jail for less than a week, a California parolee made a bad call one morning when he knocked on the door of a nearby home and, after getting no response, forced the door open. The intruder was met by the homeowner who held a firearm and demanded the intruder leave his property. The intruder refused, charging at the homeowner who fired a shot and struck the suspect in the leg. The would-be thief fled in a nearby car

Krazymop - actually there have been several studies which have uniformly stated that people use guns to prevent crimes more than 600,000 times annually, which is 'way higher than the number of gun homicides. Most of the time they are not fired - when someone is threatening you with a knife and you pull a gun, generally the conversation is over without anyone getting killed. However, police stats normally only show when shots are fired and a complaint is lodged.

Krazy ....There are thousands of these stories that happen everyday...

All I ask is that you link to a few articles. I haven't seen a link yet. Do you not have any?

And why do you assume I'm a liberal?

krazymop: Where would the 18-year-old Oklahoma widow be today without the guns she used to defend herself and her infant son from home invaders just this past weekend? That incident was all over the news the last couple of days.

Go to nra.com and look under armed citizen..

You mean the one from 2010, HadEnough?

And I never said there aren't instances in which this has happened. My point is that there are more accidental shootings than there are shootings in which someone defended himself. But I'm not going to convince you, I know that. So I'll let it go.

And I would tend to think nra.com might be a bit biased. Just throwin' that out there.

krazymop:

Maybe these FACTS will enlighten you:

According to The National Self-Defense Survey, the defensive use of guns is about three to four times as common as criminal use of guns.

The National Self-Defense Survey was the first survey specifically designed to estimate the frequency of defensive gun uses. It asked all respondents about both their own use and those of other household members, inquired about all gun types owned, and excluded usage against animals or associated with occupational duties. It also established whether persons claiming a defensive gun use had actually confronted an adversary, actually used their guns in some way (such as threatening their adversaries), and had done so in response to a crime being committed against them.

The National Self-Defense Survey indicated that there are approximately 2.5 MILLION incidents of defensive gun use per year in the United States. A similar national survey conducted by the Police Foundation and sponsored by the National Institute of Justice almost exactly confirmed the findings of the National Self-Defense Survey.

In short, most uses of guns for either criminal or defensive purposes are less dramatic or consequential than one might think. Only 3% of criminal gun assaults involve anyone actually being wounded and the same is true of defensive gun uses. More commonly, guns are merely pointed at another person, or perhaps only referred to (“I’ve got a gun”) or displayed, and this is sufficient to accomplish the ends of the user, whether criminal or non-criminal. Most defensive uses of guns did not in fact involve shooting anyone.

Those findings seem to track with my personal experience when a strange, large man was pounding on my front door at 3:00am so forcefully that the pictures on my walls rattled. When I opened the inner door (I also have an outer storm door), the man began hollering something incoherent at me. So, I displayed an M1 carbine with a 30-round banana clip and chambered a round (I still had the safety on). That display was enough to make that stranger flee. When the cops arrived about seven minutes later, they took my description of the stranger and proceeded to hunt for him in my neighborhood. Nevertheless, my defensive use of a firearm (even though I only had to display it) will never be included in any statistical data base that casts firearms in a positive light.

By definition, all incidents involving successful defensive gun uses fall within the no-injury, no-property-loss category, and thus are largely invisible to the police. Consequently, police rarely hear about the bulk of successful defensive gun uses, instead hearing mostly about an unrepresentative minority of them containing a disproportionately large number of failures.

Moreover, according to crime incidents reported in the National Crime Victimization Survey, victims who use guns for self-protection are less likely to be injured or to lose property than otherwise similar victims who used other forms of self-protection or who did not resist at all.

To summarize, if gun possession among law-abiding citizens tends to reduce violence, then reducing such gun possession is not a social good.

You mean the one from 2010, HadEnough?

And I never said there aren't instances in which this has happened. My point is that there are more accidental shootings than there are shootings in which someone defended himself. But I'm not going to convince you, I know that. So I'll let it go.

And I would tend to think nra.com might be a bit biased. Just throwin' that out there.

I would say that he means the one from New Years Day where the 18 or 19 year old widow had to defend herself a week after burying her husband.

Facts to back up your claim? If you have none then no you aren't very convincing. Biased or not what I have seen on NRA is footnoted and often is citing FBI, Bureau of Justice Statistics, or National Institute of Justice statistics.

And since you probably won't accept what Rhonda has cited above due to your bias here are a couple of book end figures that show that she is in the ball park:

Given the sampling weights, these respondents constitute 1.6 percent of the sample and represent 3.1 million adults...A somewhat more conservative NSPOF
estimate is shown in the column of exhibit 7 that reflects the application of the criteria used by Kleck and Gertz to identify "genuine" defensive gun uses...representing 1.5 million defensive users. This estimate is directly comparable to the well-known estimate of Kleck and Gertz, shown in the last column of exhibit 7.

Keck and Gertz are the ones that did the study that came up with the 2.5 million figure. What I have quoted above is from a NIJ research brief Guns in America: National Survey on
Private Ownership and Use of Firearms by Philip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig. NOT NRA "biased" and definitely not pro gun.

Bassai: You're right. It just happened..was all over the news media for the past couple days.

Eddie, please elaborate on how all Texas cops shoot first and ask questions later.

lol i dont really think I do have to... its texas... plain and simple.

Good Eddie. Next time it happens we can call you, and YOU can stand in front of a kid with a loaded gun. Let us know how that works out for you.

The cops did right. They saved a lot of lives by taking out one.

EddieisFiction

lol i dont really think I do have to... its texas... plain and simple.]

My guess is you havent ever been to Texas, and talking out your ass.

There is NOTHING worse in these posts than coming across a moron who thinks the whole STATE is like what they perceive. Have you EVER set your foot in Texas? Your statement makes you look like a fool, but then maybe your are!

Aww, JG...Let Eddie and the other idiots think that way about TX. They can't help it. Their only exposure to our great state has probably been the product of Hollywood and John Wayne.

On the bright side, maybe that will keep them from trying to take up residency here!

awwww no eddie, you didnt go there.. aw mannn.

Way to go with stereotyping. Amazing how the left applies it to things they don't like while becoming enraged at anyone else using it.

You're probably right ...

i was just joking my god guys chill out.. lol i had to respond to his question somehow. lol

he wasnt white

Are you implying he was Latino? Got news for you, Latinos are white. Get over it.

mj-1451595, the rest of us whites don't consider Latinos white. On census and government assistance forms, where the Latinos get all the free money and aid, there's a space where you fill in your ethnic origin. One of those spaces says Caucasian, another says Hispanic or Latino. Lately they're changing the boxes. That doesn't mean the rest of us consider Hispanic people white. The government is changing the names of things all the time; they also lie, cheat, and rip us off. We don't have to believe them. So if you happen to be Hispanic, and you want to believe you're white, go ahead. To the rest of us you're brown. There's nothing wrong with it, but it's not Caucasian. I'll say one thing, the race of this young man has nothing to do with this article or the crime he committed. The police did the right thing, and the family has no right to complain. If this child got the gun from his family home, the parents contributed to his death.

mj latinos are actually decendents of japanese and koreans. it is in the genetic code.

the kid brought a gun to school... so thats second amendment, and he believes in god.... so that just took your argument down.

*scratches head...

yes, this school needed more GOD and Prayers, not less idiots with guns.

OBVIOUSLY.

come to think of it, i've never prayed to GOD...and never had a gun.

how have I managed all these years?

lol i know jessica my argument sounds stupid.. but ask any republican here to separate god from guns...

they can't

Oh, puhleeze! That's a mighty simple-minded notion. There never was prayer in the public schools, except for a few fundamentalists who over the years have tried to institute it and have been stopped by the courts. How about this one: Fundamentalism in the schools = jihad in the streets.

Sawyer, maybe you don't remember prayer in public schools, but I certainly do. It was a moment of silence actually, not a vocal prayer. When the main troublemakers were those who chewed gum or talked in class.

What we did NOT have then, were guns in the halls & metal detectors at the doors.

See how things have improved?

EddieisFiction

lol i know jessica my argument sounds stupid.. but ask any republican here to separate god from guns...

they can't

It is possible. You were successfully separated from any intelligence.

Janine -- Oh, so you didn't have prayer in the schools after all.

I grew up in Texas, going to public schools from the 6th grade on. We did not have prayer -- and this was Texas, home of the lets-get-god-back-into-biology-classroom movement. I do remember times when prayer has been introduced to public schools here and there in the country. The courts have always stopped it.

A lot of people seem to think that our problems stem from having removed prayer from public schools. This, first, misremembers history, and, second, puts too much credence in prayer.

Once modern civilizations abandon their current mythologies we may have a chance at true human civilization where kids do not resort to gun use for problem solving.

Freethinking people do not do things like this.

I guess god was away on business today at that school?

God and guns don't have to be tied together. There are many Christian and Catholic pacifists. To reducethe people of a complex religion down to a single, base stereotype is just as flawed as reducing the people of an entire state to stereotype.

The presence of absence of prayer likely had very little to do with this unfortunate episode, and to try to use this event as an argument for or against religion is insulting to both sides involved.

Sorry, but there were school shootings before the whole 'prayer things taken out of schools' happened. It's the same pathetic attempt to blame something else because you don't agree with. Like people who bitch and complain and say that school shootings happened because kids watched violent television. Funny, because school shootings happened even BEFORE tv was invented.

Here's something: around the late 50's, my friends knew a family that was religious. Went to church every Sunday, said prayers at dinner...the husband was a wife/child beater. There was always yelling and crying from their house. The wife refused to get a divorce and back then in the area, divorce was looked down upon (religious and society reasons) and it was believed that a woman should stay with her man....until the day he beat her to death. He went to prison for life. Looks like all the prayers that family did together didn't save her life.

Also, the reason why you hear about more school shootings? Media access has evolved and we can watch anything anywhere. I can watch news that is going on in different countries at this very second.

Plus, there is timing: Anyone remember a few years ago of the boy who killed his grandfather (and I think his girlfriend) on an Indian reserve, went to school, killed a few people there, then himself? If you don't remember it or never heard of it, here's the reason why: Schiavo. That woman who was a vegetable in a hospital and was taken off of a feeding tube and that the state got involved and other groups got involved to protest it or support it, etc. That was ALWAYS in the news and that ended up pushing smaller stories (like the school shooting) out of the public eye.

Please explain a little more.

Here's more: Gun nuts will not be able to use their BS, antiquated, tired-azz, NRA-sponsored talkin' points to twist the 2nd Amend to their warped, 19th century liking, every time they want to. They already use the Faux News/neo-nut-type media to hide their white-on-white crimes.

'Nuff said, mhr83? (Am I white?) Whine on...!

Next?

Here kitty kitty.

Annnd...I've just reached my quota of "stupid" for today!

C_D z nuts..... You live in San Francisco right....Your watching to much MSDNC and taking to much LSD.....In the middle of the night, two men entered a home and, with a bat and pipe, attacked the man and woman that lived there. Amidst the scuffle, the male homeowner grabbed his handgun and fired a shot at one of the suspects, causing them to flee. When police arrived, they quickly found one man dead at the scene from a gunshot wound to the chest. The other intruder was arrested shortly after.....I love guns

I'm voting C_D_J55 the most BRILLIANT, FAIR, EDUCATED, UNBIASED freakin idiot of this discussion. I own MANY guns. My wife and I are both licensed to carry concealed, and WE DO. Two weeks ago I DREW MY 1911-A1 .45 automatic on a young man. Why? We manage apartments and recently a group of drug dealing PUNKS have been cutting our fence to cross our property so they could deal their POISON at the edge of OUR property (not even a hundred yards from a middle school). When we pulled up my wife saw them at the fence pulling it apart. She promptly jumped out and, standing on OUR property began shooting them...WITH A CAMERA. She was not carrying her gun (it stayed in the truck) and was NO physical threat. One of the young "men" picked up a rock bigger than a softball and ran toward her, THROUGH the fence on to OUR property with NO signs of bluffing. He froze with the rock held over his head two strides from her when he heard me rack the slide on my pistol. Had that rock moved ONE INCH forward you bet your liberal, law be damned, let the criminals do as they may ass I'd have dropped him, and STATE LAW would have protected me. I do not brandish weapons about. I carry concealed so I DON'T intimidate or worry people. But by damn you threaten someone I care about, or even an innocent stranger, in MY presence and see what happens. And where do I get my "warped sense of protectiveness" and ability with a firearm? I learned it defending your right to your sorry-arse attitude as a United States Marine.

Maybe the police did all they could before having to shoot the kid. I'd hate to have been the cop who shot him- try sleeping with that on your mind.

MyOreos

What do you think they meant by "Engaged police", he offered to marry one of them?

he "got "all the help he needed.

He got the copper jacket he always wanted...

Umm...obviously, you don't know the definition of "engaged police" -- so, why don't you go find an agitated 15-y.o. with a gun, stand in front of him and calmly try to tell them to put the weapon down. You'd have urine running down your legs. Go back to watching your Hollywood cop shows.

"Troubled", "needed help"....So he punches a kid in the nose for no reason and points a gun at cops to signal that he's troubled and needs help? Sounds like he had a bug up his ass and blamed the world for putting it there.