The biggest problem is how this program became public knowledge. What good is spying on people if they know you are doing it.

What's hilarious here is that by boycotting, they aren't helping their cause.

They should show up, be friendly, and advocate for greater understanding. What a missed opportunity.

Why are these Muslims so paranoid.??

They can always go back to their homeland if they don't like things here.

Well, you know, except for the fact that many of them were born here. Do you honestly think every Muslim in this country is an immigrant, and that none are natural born citizens?

Like Sarah, I too like being naive.

Sarah makes a good point. By singling out a group, solely based on their religion, the government is operating in a manner contrary to the tenets of the US constitution. That being said, although every religion does have it's fringe element of extremists, Islam takes the cake when it comes to religion-inspired violence. These imans should blame those among them who condone such tactics, rather than boycott an interfaith lunch.

One way for these groups to avoid being targeted for surveillance is to openly, loudly, and very publicly express their disapproval of those things that are the cause of them being under surveillance, and, to live those disapprovals. Not joining the festivities is essentially a form of approval of extremist attitudes and actions! Get the guts to do what is right and stop hiding behind religion. That is just plain asking for trouble. There is only one comments I have for these groups: I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

Sarah - go visit a Muslim country and see how they welcome you with open arms. Be sure to wear a cross or show whatever religion you associate with proudly. Let me tell you how understanding and accepting that religion is.

Hesk, Sarah would not need to wear any religous symbol. All she would need to do is walk around in a bikini. I bet that would be taken very well.

Sarah try Googling Nicholas Berg or Christian Coptic churches being burnt in Egypt. As for my "unneccesarry, inarticulate, substantiveless, rude post" your blind, head in the clouds liberal denouncing of a necessary information gathering program is far more offensive than anything I wrote.

I wish I could walk around thinking Muslims don't want to kill me but a tour in Iraq changed that and I know this isn't Iraq also Sarah, but a Muslim fanatic knows no boundaries and that's why this program is necessary.

It would be funny if people weren't such idiots and so much was at stake. God help us. These libs remind me of one of those people standing on top of the building welcoming the aliens in "Independence day." Didn't work so well...

The Muslim supporters claim that our actions are un-American.

Putting your religion before your country is un-American and that is what Muslims do. They will attack us in the name of religion, therefore their religion is a threat to our country and must be monitored.

Sarah lives in the US. Your point about going to Iraq is moot. Why don't you go to Spain around 1500-the inquisition

Thank you Lori! I already brought that up once, but they seem to keep forgetting it. Remember guys this is about the U.S. and U.S. citizens.

Soaz,

You have a fundemental misunderstanding of what you were fighting to protect.

"Those who give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

If I lived in a country where 70% of the population hated or was afraid to get near me. I would move!

Lori & Sarah what part of Islamic Fundamentalists not knowing borders or boundaries don't you understand? I know very welll what I was protecting-the right for libs like you to openly express their delusional outlook of the world. If you spent five minutes policing up gloves with hands in them or boots with feet in them or seen sunglasses melted into the face of a soldier you might begin to understand things a little better. We used to have to chase crows away from scavenging the body parts after an IED explosion. Try walking in my shoes for a minute school girls.

What part of "There are fundementalist sects of ALL religions and demographics that would do us harm, but we still live in the U.S." don't you understand??? The overhwhelming majority of Muslims has never and will never do a darned thing to you, why not judge them by their majority instead of their minority. I'm assuming you're a white, Christian, male??? Perhaps the government should spy on you, seeing as that's the demographic that's wreaked the most havoc on the world.

If the threat of a possible future harm, is all it takes than why not wipe of the Consitution all together and go live in a bunker in Montana???

And Lori just send me the keys to your time machine and I'll gladly go to Spain in the 1500's. Maybe I can go back to Loret de Mar again. I had a great time there in 91.

Sarah-3043284

Well, you know, except for the fact that many of them were born here. Do you honestly think every Muslim in this country is an immigrant, and that none are natural born citizens?

_______________________________________

There are plenty of Muslims that were born here Sarah, but that doesn't mean that they should stay. There is no room in their delusional world to be loyal to their religion AND their country, especially since the morals and principles of the two conflict with each other.

I thought they were boycotting the breakfast because they were serving bacon :)

"There are fundementalist sects of ALL religions and demographics that would do us harm, but we still live in the U.S." don't you understand???

I understand that completely well. You are in utter liberal denial that there are threats facing us from radical Islam. Were all Germans Nazis? Of course not but they sat back, did nothing and watched the Nazi atrocities. The majority of Muslims aren't terrorists but until they actively assist law enforcement to identify radicals they're no different from the aveerage German who looked the other way when Nazis pulled Jews from thir appartments.

This is about intelligence gathering at the source. Can you understand that? Where do you look for Romans Sarah? In Rome. There are mosques that are used for recruiting and that's where authorites need to look. This article doesn't say all mosques are being targetted, just some. Those that are being looked at is because there is a suspected threat there.

I would actually be surprised if the title said "Muslims happy about..." Honestly, when are Muslims not upset?

How about a break from all the protesting, rioting, anger, misery, violence, religious dogma, etc.. stop blaming others for your failed culture and start building, living and respecting and things just might be a little different.

It amazes me that every time there is news for anything to do with Muslims, the amount of anti-American, anti-Constitution ramblings that appear in the posts following. Soaz, I'm sorry friend that you experienced the horrors of war against a foreign enemy that brandishes the Islamic faith, I truly am. I cannot imagine the things that you and many of my family have had to endure. I do have to say, you may not agree with her but, Sarah is 100% right in regards to the freedom that Muslims are entitled to with our glorious Constitution. All faiths in this land are allowed the due right to freedom of religion, freedom of speech and freedom of peaceful assembly. Even if you don't like, for what would seem valid reasons. To begin tacky name calling such as liberal, progressive, school-girls etc. does a great disservice to your own opinions. Opinions are one thing, but the fundamental rights of Americans are concrete and should not be discredited, devalued or tampered with in any way, shape or form. There is one thing that cannot be denied, and that is, history always repeats itself and unless we learn from the past we are doomed to repeat it. I would remind you of Germany in the 1930's. Hitler had his own men start a fire in the Reichstag building. When the flames were put out, he blamed it on his enemies in power, the Communists. He then demanded that homeland security be tightened and started to take away the rights of the people: the right to free assembly, free speech too. He then began to persecute people of faith, namely the Jews. His speech against them as "dangerous to a free society" soon became common speak - very similar to what we have now towards Muslims. This rhetoric spread. Soon, without any understanding of the Jewish faith, a vast majority of Germans believed the hype and welcomed the persecution, abuse, detention and eventual attempted genocide of an entire race and faith. What we have now in the States is similar to those early days in Germany. Persecution of a once accepted faith within our nation - and yes, Islam did not pop up here in the days near 9/11 but had been here for many years. When we begin to do, just as the Germans and welcome the rights of one group to be taken away, we are opening a door for the rights of the many to be removed as well. The Germans were so wrapped up in homeland security, in the protection of their freedoms, that they never realized those freedoms had been taken away. Our Nation perpetrates this same homeland security message, not a message of caution, but a message of fear and it makes an easy route for the stripping away of freedoms. You may disagree with a religion, fine. You may disagree with what someone says, fine. You may disagree with the right to free assembly, the right to bear arms or any number of things we are allowed the blessed right to have here in our Nation, but we must never give in to a rhetoric or opinion that any of these freedoms should be taken away from anyone. James Madison once said that, "If tyranny and oppression come to this land it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy"...he knew all to well what could happen when we remove rights and freedoms for the sake of "security".

Chief, point well taken. Perhaps I was over the top a bit and I apologize. I'm well aware there's no easy answer but sometimes groups do need to be scrutinized. If these mosques are being used for subversive activities then they HAVE to be looked at.

I'm also familiar with how the Nazis came to power, the Richstag ifre etc. I spent nine years there. I went to East Berlin in the late 80's a couple of times so I've seen what a police state is. I don't want to go there but Islamic fanatics are criminals. If criminals gather amongst honest citizens they need to weeded out at that gathering point if that's the best place to catch them.

Terrorists are criminals! Always remember that and you might reconsider a little surveillance differently.

Consider this Sarah, Lori and Chief: if Salvatore Gravano aka "Sammy the Bull" was conducting business in the back of a Catholic Church would you have reservations about police going into that church to see who he was meeting with? How about if he attended Bingo in a Catholic school cafeteria on Friday nights?

I don't even know where to start on this one.

First of all, to Wake up2840 and others making the same argument. You obviously have no idea what the religion of Islam is about if you think it some how goes against the principles of this country. Yes SOME followers take it to the extreme and do things that are un-American and go against the ideals of liberty and freedom that we have in this country. Guess what, so do SOME Christians. It always amazes me that people will point to things like Sharia law and try to paint an entire religion based on a few who take Sharia to an extreme, for most it is much like the Ten Commandments and other teachings in the Bible that give an outline of how you should live your life. Take a look at any of the cults that claim Christianity in order to subjugate women and children and you will see the same behavior. The difference is that if it is a Christian group in this country we call it a cult and accept that they do not represent the majority, if it is a Muslim group we, or more accurately closed minded people like you, act as if all Muslims went to extremes in their beliefs. Islam is the second largest religion in the world, if they were all extremist we would have a much bigger problem that we currently do.

As for this argument about going to another country and seeing how welcoming they would be, 2 things. First, those countries are oppressive because they have dictators running them who will use any method neccassary, including religion, to stay in power. This is called the "Holy Alliance" in international studies and it was first used by. . . wait for it. . . a Christian leader, the Czar of Russia in the aftermath of WWI to allow the aristocratic leaders to stay in power when challenges began to arise. This has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with power and those who care not about what tactics they have to use to keep it.

Second, I'm sorry but are you actually suggesting that we should take our queue on how to treat minorities from countries like Iran?!?!?! The reason this country is so great is because we DON'T do that. To single someone how specifically for their religion is distinctly un-American and should never be done, period.

To soazDan: First of all, thank you for your service, while I disagree with the wars, and have from the beginning, I wholeheartedly support our troops and am grateful for the sacrifices our soldiers make for our freedom. That said to allow what you saw in a warzone to dictate how you view an entire people, and especially how you think laws in this country should be written is plain ignorant. Yes the people in Iraq were trying to kill you, you were in a war zone, that is what happens in a war zone. In WWII the Japanese we saw in Asia were trying to kill us, should we have locked all of the US Citizens up for safety . . . oh wait we did and we now look back with shame at our actions because we let fear and bigotry control our decision making instead of the American values that our soldiers fight and die to protect.

Also, where does it stop? What point is a point to far, I mean right now it's spying on Muslim American, but who is next? When you give the government the power to spy on groups that it feels are a "danger" to society you cannot then limit who it feels is a "danger". What if the next group they see as a danger is the NRA? Keep in mind liberals who don't like guns come to power just as often as conservatives who don't like Muslims. Or maybe the ACLU, I mean god knows they stir up a lot of trouble, or may Greenpeace. . . there I go again, that one already happened. That is the problem with laws like this, they can and will be used in ways that are un-American every time. The fact is that "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" and this kind of ability give the government absolute power over spying on American citizens.

I am sure that those who envisioned this action had the right goal in heart - making society safer against terrorist - however the method is as important as the goal. If we really wanted to keep everyone safe we could simply pass a law requiring that everyone stay in their house or place of work at all time, all travel be monitored by law enforcement officers with security screenings as you leave your home and work, and random house searches allowed anytime for any reason. We would never do this, however, because it goes against he very fiber of who we are. We live in a dangerous world, and if the police want to investigate actual threats, and get warrants and spy on people who have shown actual indication that they may be a threat they have every right to do so. To attempt to spy on an entire population of people just because they are Muslim or Arab is wrong on every level and all Americans should be outraged by it.

Bill: Also, where does it stop? When the threat from Islamic Fundamentalists stops or dimminshes to an acceptable level. Surveillance in a Mosque is no diffrent then the FBI 'spying'on Italian mobsters in churches. Sometimes extreme measures are necessary to protect the majority from the few. It's an ugly world....what can I say?

soazDan: "Consider this Sarah, Lori and Chief: if Salvatore Gravano aka "Sammy the Bull" was conducting business in the back of a Catholic Church would you have reservations about police going into that church to see who he was meeting with? How about if he attended Bingo in a Catholic school cafeteria on Friday nights?"

No I wouldn't have a problem with that, for the fact that they would have a specific individual that they were survailling with specific reason for doing so, and a warrant.

If they want to do surveillance on a specific Mosque or Individual that has been somehow tied to terrorism then they can get a warrant to do so and I have no problem with it. That is NOT what this is though. This is a group of people sent out into the Muslim community at large to gather intelligence and spy on all members of a community, not known criminals.

Sarah,

• The Orange Volunteers
• National Liberation Front of Tripura
• National Socialist Council of Nagalund
• Mamassi National Christian Army
• Iron Guard
• Lord's Resistance Army
• KKK
• Christian Patriot Movement
• Christian Identity Movement
• Lambs of Christ
• Hutaree
• The Covenant
• The Sword
• The Arm of the Lord, Defensive Action
• The Freeman Community

Wow! A lot of nuthin.

• The Orange Volunteers - Ireland
• National Liberation Front of Tripura - India
• National Socialist Council of Nagalund - India and Burma
• Mamassi National Christian Army - India
• Iron Guard - Romania
• Lord's Resistance Army - Africa
• KKK - US - Totally marginalized
• Christian Patriot Movement - US - No terrorist activities - no killings attributed to
• Christian Identity Movement - US - No terrorist activities - no killings attributed to
• Lambs of Christ- US - No terrorist activities - no killings attributed to
• Hutaree - US - No terrorist activities - no killings attributed to
• The Covenant - No information
• The Sword - No information
• The Freeman - US - No terrorist activities - no killings attributed to
• The Arm of the Lord, Defensive Action - No information

I'm surprised you didn't list the Spanish inquisition. Quick question. How many innocent New Yorkers have these groups killed in the past 11 years?

LOL

And Al Qaeda was from the U.S???? Um no, they weren't. They also had "no killings attributed to them", until they did. They're marked as terrorist/hate groups, and they're Christian based. Al Qaeda wasn't from the U.S, yet we use it as a reason to spy on Muslim citizens, why not use The Lords Resistance Army as a reason to spy on Christians?

Soaz,

Except, that's not what's happening. For your argument to be on point, it would go like this...

Mafia members are Catholics, although they make up only a tiny percentage of the Catholic population. But since, they do, we're going to spy on ALL Catholics, on the off chance that we might catch a hitman.

And yes, I would have a problem with that. However, if Sammy the Bull is actively comitting a crime that we know about through legal warrents and without invading the privacy of thousands of innocent people, than go get him...

And yes, SOaz, you look for Romans in Rome, but that doesn't mean you assume, accuse, and invade the privacy of thousands of innocent, law abiding Romans, on the off chance you might catch a bad one. And you still follow the Constitution.

Muslims not attending a breakfast because they don't like their Neanderthal, caveman behavior being observed? Doesn't everyone already know this? How is this newsworthy?

If you were a misogynist gasbag who beat your wife and daughters and had such an inferiority complex that you felt threatened by anything you labeled "dishonorable" would you want anyone looking at you? didn't think so.

What does the word "Dhimmitude" mean.??

It is used in the new "Health Care Law"..

Since Muslims in general are a source of concern and hiding the unwanted elements, spy on them and watch all their movements. It is for our security which they, the Muslims, are threatening.

When over 90% of the terrorists come from one ethnic group that comprises 10% of the population of NYC, it certainly makes sense to give that group special surveillance attention.

Has common sense taken a vacation in America?

Roy - no friend, common sense has not taken a vacation in our country but sadly, our rights to freedom are packing their bags...

Roy,

You got a source/citation for those numbers?

If we're all gonna be profiling U.S. citizens who also happen to be Muslims, why don't you profile them based on their majority, instead of a miniscule minority?

The USA is well on it's way to getting the government it so richly deserves.

My plan is to get out of here before it's too late.

And no, I won't let the door hit me. Thanks.

Sarah-3043284 " Roy - If we're all gonna be profiling U.S. citizens who also happen to be Muslims, why don't you profile them based on their majority, instead of a miniscule minority?"

Are you claiming that Muslim terrorists are not our biggest concern over terrorist attacks in America?

If a crime is committed by a 'young Black male', should we start looking for 'old White grandmothers' as the possible suspect to be 'Politically Correct'? The police have long given special surveillance attention to certain groups based on their behavior, whether it be criminal gangs, the Mafia, or crooked politicians. I see nothing in these tactics that violates our Constitution.

Like I said - Has common sense taken a vacation in America?

Roy,

The key phrase being...

If a crime is committed

I ask you, before a crime is committed should we be spying on ALL black men, because a small minority have comitted crimes in the past?

Terrorists are terrorists, and they come in all religions. However, our biggest threat to America are those that want to poop all over our Constitution.

Like I said - Got any sources to back your numbers up? Did you skip that one on purpose?

This is from another article: "According to the investigation, the police department monitored and collected information on New Yorkers at about 250 mosques, schools, and businesses throughout the city, simply because of their religion and not because they exhibited suspicious behavior," the letter said.

Senior police figures have denied that they targeted Muslim communities in general, claiming they only followed leads. Bloomberg has also strongly and consistently backed the city's police department and its tactics.

Who do you believe? The Police or a group who feel they are being picked on?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/29/new-york-muslims-snub-bloomberg?newsfeed=true

I'll try to clear my point and position.
1. This is not a war on Islam
2. Not all Muslims are terrorists but the VAST MAJORITY of terorrist acts committed throughout the world over the past 20 years have been Muslims.
3. The police have MUSLIM INFORMERS. They infilitrate the mosques and point out who might be a threat and the police pursue that individual and associates.
4. This is not racist. Are they profiling? Yes, but profiling is not illegal and has been used for decades in law enforcement. If the police were investigating an Irish gang in Boston they would profile Irish-Americans.
5. Terrorists are criminals and this is a criminal surveillance operation they are protesting against.

Roy, common sense has taken a vacation in AMerica. Look at the TSA and their ridiculous searches of infants and eldery just so they can say they don't target any specific group. Sarah, do you why Israel is so good at airport security? Because they don't just look for the bomb, they look for the bomber. we waste time and resources so we can be politically correct. Bombers have certain characteristics, behaviors etc...that is airport security should pay attention to.

The same goes with any group of people. Google Muslims protest NYC breakfast and see what other articles are saying...

A spokesman for the mayor's office downplayed the impact of the letter and the boycott, saying that other Muslim leaders were still planning on attending the breakfast gathering. "We have a couple dozen Muslim community leaders who have RSVP-ed that they will be at the breakfast, which is about the same as previous years," said Stu Loeser.

Not all Muslims are bombers and not all Muslims are protesting the breakfast either.

I agree with Sarah, and with our founding fathers who repeatedly warned of those who would try to ignore, override or usurp our Constitution. I could post dozens upon dozens of quotes from Ben Franklin, Jefferson, Addams, Washington and on and on that states that the one thing that we have to assure true freedom and an avoidance of tyranny and oppression is that document above all other documents in the land. Roy - according to Homeland Security and a document that was leaked a few years ago which listed "potential terrorists", Muslims were not even on the list. However, some of those that were on the list include: photographers, veterans, Tea Party members, political activists, Ron Paul supporters (this was before the current campaign), people with political bumper stickers and many, many more everyday Americans. So, neither myself nor Homeland Security see Muslims as threats. Yes, there are radicals that go to extreme, as there are in every faith. I would argue that religious extremists of any faith would warrant a watchful eye. Even so, it would have to be done with the careful abidance of our Constitution and the rights of its citizens. The majority of all faiths have no desire to inflict harm upon their fellow man, but there is always that small percent. Should we target all faiths? Should we target all races? Heavens, no. Freedom will be secure so long as we allow it to be. Once we embrace something else, something different that allows for the Government to do whatever it feels like in the name of security, we no longer have freedom but rather, we are taking the first steps towards tyranny. The Germans thought they were free and largely supported Hitlers call for more homeland security and fewer rights, all for the sake of safety. They too began spying on groups of peoples and faiths, German citizens even. We must not follow those same steps. We must not allow the freedoms of any faith to be given over to the false flag of security. History teaches us over and over, freedom never lasts once that card has been played. If there is an individual that has been suspect, by all means, he deserves to be looked at following the legal steps. Putting aside our legal rights and the legal rights of others...yet, another step towards tyranny. I read many people on this page write about "big Government"...this is the very definition of Big Government and Orwellian in scope.

Chief, you can thank Janet Napolitano for that list and it appears much of it was politically motivated. But in some cases incompetence starts at the top.

NYPD officials also weighed into the spat, saying that the AP story had exaggerated its activities. "The NYPD lawfully follows leads in terrorist-related investigations and does not engage in the kind of wholesale spying on communities that was false alleged," said Paul Browne, an NYPD deputy commissioner.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/29/new-york-muslims-snub-bloomberg?newsfeed=true

This protest is by 14 Muslims. What facts have they presented to support their claims? I hope they do file a lawsuit so we can get to the bottom of this. This is being overexaggerated by a small group.

Patriot20:
SOAZ: since your one of the hate spewing violence loving people here, you state that most terrorist are muslims? umm maybe you need to use your brain next time and do an analysis and look up the definition of terrorism.

I'm not "one of the hate spewing violence loving people here". I'm a practical sense person who served in the military and has seen things firsthand. Look at post 1.54, this is not an anti-Islamic crackdown by the NYPD. They investigated targetted individuals. How crimes are reported in the news is up to the reporter but when a bomb blows up in Tel Aviv and some radical Islamic fundamentalist group that professes their goal is to destroy Israel claims responsibility.....um yeah, I'd say that's terrorism.

terrorism
1. the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.

Soaz - I don't feel you are hate spewing. In fact, though we may disagree on some things I thank you for in our conversation remaining quite civil and courteous. I actually appreciate more than I can say, a civil discourse, in particular with someone of opposing or slightly different views than mine. I am never to old to grow, to learn and to have a new clarity of mine brought before me. I did not always have the political views I have now, but time, and knowledge and understanding has led me to be the man I am today. I have never served in our Armed Forces, but most of my family has fought in wars, from the Alamo to Iraq. Although, only being a civilian, I do understand what happens in a war situation, especially in an armed engagement. The comment by "patriot" about "how many civilians did you murder" crossed a line. Please pay him no mind. I'm sure he may have a point he is really desperate to make, perhaps even one I might agree with, but, it's all moot with a remark like that. There are scars each and every soldier comes home with, some without, some within - trying to shine light on what may be an inner scar to prove a political point is callous, reckless, and quite cruel. Just be the bigger man, forgive him and forget the comment....

PAt20 1. I didn't murder anybody. 2. I didn't invade any country, I was in the US Army carrying out the mission we were given. 3. If an Israeli blows up a Palestinian cafe because he's a member of a group that wants to destroy palestine I agree that's terrorism.

This is not the Salem Witch Hunt. The NYPD claims that they were conducting surveillance on specific people and until that claim is proven untrue I support their efforts.

Chief, I appreciate your comment, thanks. I hope I don't sound like a 'hater' because I'm really not. Peace would be a wonderful thing but I'm afraid it's just a pipe dream. Man is a unique species but deep down we're still just animals like any other. we can reason or we choose not to...
And hey "I'm only a civilian" now too and loving it! The army was a great career, many challenges and good & bad times but that's life.

soaz...thank you for your service and sleep well my friend

Wife of Vietnam Vet

Semper Fi

Leave the politically correct crap to the politicians.

If you want venison you don't hunt hunt bear.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/

azindy, how can you or other muslims whine about this. It is very simple common sense.

If you are looking for apples, will you start in an orange grove or apple orchard?

No hatred just being wary. FYI, you use the race or bigot card too often and it not only becomes meaningless but makes you look like you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer. It would be different if terrorist attacks by Muslims were a rare occurrence but unfortunately they ain't. Funny thing is if there were a bunch of Christians performing the same acts that the Muslims are doing be assured other Christians would take care of it. Where I would expect Muslims to do the same all I hear is crickets.

Bigoted hatred? Nice spin.

We hate people that want us dead! If the so-called moderate Muslims would grow a pair and denounce and kill the radical movement, we would let them do it. They chose not to. So, they either agree with the views or are not willing to get engaged. Either way, that leaves it up to us to look out for ourselves.

Mybe if one of those groups would come out and publicly condemn the murders by the Islamic terrorists - then maybe people would not mistrust them.

Watermoon

- Have you condemned the treacherous policies of our government by invading Iraq and Afghanistan, murdering thousands of innocents, while boldly lying every step of the way as to what we were doing??

No??

Didn't think so.....

Most Americans do not trust muslims...

Didn't the government spy on blacks once upon a time, like MLK? Do folks not see a pattern? This is why things continue to happen, they always go after the obvious person, but not the one who would do something. Do you ever notice that when a child goes missing the first suspect is the sex offenders in the neighborhood and 9 times out of 10 it is a family member first or family friend? Just an observation.

Squid - So are you simply pointing out that we have issues here in the States as well? or are you trying to justify one bad action for another? I always like the see the excuse of, "well he did it first!"

1. Activity that goes on within Mosques (or any religious building) is protected activity, covered by the 1st amendment.

"Vital relationship between the freedom to associate and privacy in one's association." NACCP v. State of Alabama 357 U.S. 499, 462

Therefore, if we have agents of the government, coming into our houses of worship in order to gather intellegence to be used against us, we will no longer feel free to worship however we see fit. Specifically, if they base this on nothing more then religion. There goes religious freedom I guess.

2. If you use the argument that the terrorist attacks give us reasonable suspicion or probable cause to suspect Muslims, you're violating the 14th amendment. Clearly, we can look at every demographic and see fundementalist sects that pose a threat to us. And no, I do not think that the CIA has trained any domestic operatives to infiltrate fringe groups other than Muslims. The FBI, perhaps, but not the CIA. Also, being a Muslim, does not put you in the same category as being a member of the KKK, the major difference being the only reason to join the KKK is to hate while the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful. There's also ingrained precedent that protects groups like the Klan from civil liberties violations under the basis of the 1st Amendment, and any FBI integration or undercover missions/surveillance pertaining to them comes with probable cause and warrants. If not, please provide a citation for how you make that point. What if every time someone was shot the police felt it was okay it search and investigate every black person, or black people in general? Afterall, that demographic is responsible for a lot of shootings, ergo by this logic, we should be able to suspect them all. Would you still feel like this was okay then? So, quite clearly, we are not providing Muslims with the same protection we provide other religions.

3. The sweeping and classified legal standards for intellegence gathering and the CIA, do not, and should never, guide our local police forces. The NYPD is subject to the 4th amendment. Period.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects." - 4th amendment

"Though the investigative duty of the executive may be stronger in such national security cases, so also is there greater jeopardy to constitutionally protected speech. History abundantly documents the tendency of government to view with suspicion those who most fervently dispute its policies." U.S. v. Keith 407 U.S. at 313-314

The officers are engaged in "human mapping" and obtaining information on these subjects, for the government. That is, absolutely, a search without probable cause, and no, it doesn't have to be "on tape". There is no national security exception to the 4th amendment. The same reason that the police can't look at your demographic, and based on that start following you around in a professional capacity, digging into how you worship, what you say, and what you read, in order to later, possibly, use it against you. The professional capacity makes a world of difference.

4. The CIA can't do this, because the CIA has zero domestic jurisdiction. That one's easy. They shouldn't be training, working with, or in cahoots with any local law enforcement team. If it happens on our soil, it is the FBI's problem, or our police forces problem. Yes, I can see that the CIA and FBI should share info, however, if that info is coming from the FBI it is subject to our civil rights. To not do this, would be a blow to the whole system of "checks and balances". Intellegence gathering and investigation of citizens or foreign nationals is an executive power, and must be subject to the checks of judicial scrutiny. If we're doing this without warrants, how will those checks be made?

"Those who give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Activity that goes on within Mosques (or any religious building) is protected activity, covered by the 1st amendment.

Those mosques are recruiting centers. If the US is left to liberals and "progrssives" we'll be living under Sharia law and you'll be walking around in a burka and veil Sarah. You need to face the reality of the world as it is. Your liberal professors have done a good job of brain washing you though.

Soaz,

Well, you know, there have been Muslims for just about as long as there have been Christians, I've yet to be forced to wear a Burka.

That is because we do not allow them to conquer us, if we did, they would make you and strip all of your rights.

Grow up!

If the US is left to liberals and "progrssives" we'll be living under Sharia law and you'll be walking around in a burka and veil Sarah.

Name one liberal who espouses Sharia law. Sharia law is extremely conservative (albeit Muslim), not liberal. Liberals and progressives would no more accept rule by extremist Muslims than they accept rule by extremist Christians. Keep your faith - regardless of which one it is - *out* of my life!

Watermoon-

concerning 9-11

In a Joint Statement by American Muslim Alliance, American Muslim Council, Association of Muslim Scientists and Engineers, Association of Muslim Social Scientists, Council on American-Islamic Relations, Islamic Medical Association of North America, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America, Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, Muslim American Society and Muslim Public Affairs Council, stated:^[5]

American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.

however

Following the attacks, on the Christian television program The 700 Club, television evangelist Jerry Falwell called the event a punishment from God and laid the blame on "paganists", "abortionists", "feminists" and "gays and lesbians", claiming that they "helped this happen". Host Pat Robertson concurred with the statements. Both evangelists came under attack from President George W. Bush for their statements,^[6] Falwell subsequently apologized.

Really, Living??? First, you're rude. Second, fringe extremists from every religion want to harm us. Why such a focus on Muslims??? Perhaps you're simply paranoid about something because you find it strange and exotic?

Perhaps I need to repost this...

1. If being Muslim is such a defining characteristic that we use it to profile people, than why don't we look at the majority of Muslims as opposed to a tiny minority?

2. Those who say "profiling" is okay, you're missing a few cars on the logic train. Using a discription to find a suspect, and placing in that discription words like, black, woman, Muslim is okay, as is stopping people who fit that description, because a crime has already been committed and witnessed. The issue here is that Muslims in general aren't suspects. If you say they are, than I refer you back to number one.

3. I always hear these claims of "Muslims celebrating in the streets of American towns on 9/11." I've yet to see a link to a news story about that though. I've also tried researching it on my own... Still nothing.

4. The other thing I always hear is "Well if they denounced terror..." Ahem, the American Muslim Council, Council on Islamic-American Relations, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America, Muslim American Society, and Muslim Public Affairs Council, all released statements condemning the act. I'm still waiting for the Vatican, The Protestants, The Methodists, The Baptists, White Men, White Woman, Jews, Black Men, Black Women... and every other demographic imaginable, to condemn all the crazy crap they've done to the world.

5. Using the logic that most posters here use we could say... All German Americans should be scrutinized for being Nazi's. All Catholics should be surveilled because they may be pedophiles. All white Christians need to be searched extra hard for possible genocide plots... Let's face it, Muslims are simply the target du juor, because 9/11 was somewhat recent, and they're easy and seem different from us.

6. Muslims have been here as long as Christians. We've yet to all die.

7. And, FYI, all religions say that their word is number one, over and above anything else. If not, than why do Christians scream about gay marriage? Hell, Torah, the Jewish holy book, means Law.

Your fears in this area are unfounded, illogical, and based in ignorance. The Islamic community has been no more sh($*%y than any other demographic or religion. The attempts to blame, profile, hate Muslims is nothing more than a pathetic defense mechanism because you can't deal with the uncertainty of life, so you blame it on the easiest or most recent boogie man.

good point sarah

You realize you are taking up for a people that think a woman is just a little bit above dirt??

How many people have been killed in the name of Muslim religion?

Name the peaceful Muslim nations.

Not one Muslim organization is actively campaigning against the extremists, not one. Yes, if you ask them, are they against it, some say yes. But their is zero active effort to quash them. That is the facts!

Muslims want us dead, not all, but enough of them and the Mosque are recruiting grounds and must be monitored.

This is the US. Freedom of religion only applies to "christians".

Living,

Where are you getting that info? Any sources or citations to back that up? What about all the Christian groups I listed above, you don't seem scared of them???

Sam,

Oops, must've forgot that.

Sarah-3043284

1. Activity that goes on within Mosques (or any religious building) is protected activity, covered by the 1st amendment.

_________________________________

Not when it threatens the lives of our citizens and the principles upon which this country was founded.

Sarah... I love you and if I wasn't married already, I'd want to marry you. Seriously. That said....

The other thing I always hear is "Well if they denounced terror..." Ahem, the American Muslim Council, Council on Islamic-American Relations, Islamic Circle of North America, Islamic Society of North America, Muslim American Society, and Muslim Public Affairs Council, all released statements condemning the act.

They may have condemned "the act", but that was 10 years ago. And really, what do you expect from top-level organizations looking to protect their memberships? Of course they had to denounce 9/11.

The problem is at the local level, not at the organizational level. When it comes to denouncing terrorism, the imams at the mosques and Islamic centers have done very little. Or as one other poster put it, "all you hear is crickets".

I agree with most of what you're saying. But I don't believe that the Muslim faith, in general, has done enough to say that Americans are NOT infidels. By their definition, we are.

Bottom line.... it's a waste of time looking for alligators in Alaska. If you know that alligators are the problem, you have to find a way into the alligator's lair and figure out when he'll attack next. It's not Polar Bears that have sworn death to America.... it's alligators. We need to stop pretending that Polar Bears are the same threat as alligators. They are not. The alligators have told us flat out... we are your enemy. And they mean it. I'm not suggesting internment camps like the 1940s.... but I'm also not suggesting that spying on muslims inside America is a bad thing.

I have to agree with livingbarefoot. It's a shame that his assessment is correct, but it is indeed correct.

Please consider marrying me anyway. :)

The problem is at the local level, not at the organizational level. When it comes to denouncing terrorism, the imams at the mosques and Islamic centers have done very little.

How do you know that? Have you attended any mosques personally? Do you discuss these issues with Muslims in your neighborhood? Would you even *listen* if a Muslim *was* denouncing extremism, or saying anything else, for that matter?

You say that "by their definition, we are" infidels. Well, the same can be said of us by anyone who follows the teachings in Leviticus. Do you eat pork? Then you are to be cast out. Do you do *any* kind of work on the Sabbath, including cooking food? Then you are to be condemned. The Bible is as drastic as the Koran when it comes to obeying the "his" laws.

There are *millions* of Muslims in the U.S. How many of them have attempted to harm the rest of us? Do you think they are incapable of harming us, or that the CIA is somehow stopping them from acting on what you believe to be their true intentions? No; the reason there are not millions of attacks by Muslims on non-Muslims here in the U.S. is that those millions of Muslims have no desire to attack us.

Sure, some do, and we need to be vigilant and do what we can to prevent large-scale attacks (from *anyone*). But we cannot, as a free society, permit ourselves to become paranoid to the point that we quash the rights of millions of our citizens, simply because of our fear. We did that to our Japanese-Americans in WWII, to our great shame.

For those saying there aren't any groups actively condemning terrorism, a quick google search turned up: (couldn't get the links to show normally so had to put then in a bit odd

Free Muslims: www. free muslims .org/

Good statement, not a group though: kurzman.unc.edu /islamic- statements-against- terrorism

Muslims Against Terror: www. m- a-t. org/

A list of condemnations of terror: www. muhajabah.com/ otherscondemn. php

CAIR: (Council on American-Islamic Relations) cair .com/ americanmuslims/ antiterrorism.aspx

This took me all of two minutes to find on Google, I am sure if I took more time I could find much more. Before you spout nonsense about Muslims not actively fighting the fringe in their own religion get your facts straight.

That, by the way, is not to mention the many Muslim individuals in our armed services and law enforcement who fight everyday to protect Americans against all threats, including extremist of ANY religion.

Howie... thanks for the challenge. It's hard for me to come back with anything substantive... I don't necessarily disagree with the questions you've asked me, and I damn sure don't have great answers to them. Complex problems do not have simple solutions.

Yes, clearly the Bible can be as drastic as the Koran. But it's not the 1500s anymore and the Inquisition is over. During my lifetime of less than 50 years, I have never heard a Jewish person or a Christian person professing that those that don't follow their religion deserve to die. But I do hear that from Muslims. So while many religions define non-believers as infidels, lately, there has been only 1 religion willing to act on that.

And is it really about the infidel or is it really about America's support for Israel? To me, 9/11 was retaliation for support of Israel in occupying Palestinian lands (bin Laden said so himself).

But to sanitize the killing of people for political purposes, you have to inject religion into the mind of those willing to carry out the atrocity. This way, they have divine motivation and no guilt to stop them. Convince them that God is on their side and you've got a motivated killer. That happens at the mosques, not the synagogues and not at Churches.

Yes, there are millions of muslims that live peacefully in America. But only 15 of them attacked us on 9/11. Only 1 wore a shoe bomb. Only 1 loaded up his car full of bombs and gasoline and parked in Times Square. It doesn't take millions of muslims supporting terror to show that it is STILL muslims that are performing the terror.

If I lived in a Muslim country and Christians performed a terrorist attack in the name of Christ, as a Christian myself, I'd apologize to every Muslim I knew. I'd ask them to not think all Christians are like that.

Meanwhile, I work with several muslims. None of them ever said a word to any of us about 9/11. While they don't need to apologize, it would have been nice if they had something to the effect of... "we don't believe what happened was correct. Don't judge us by the actions of a few." Comments like that would have gone a looooooooooooong way. Instead, all I ever heard from my fellow muslims co-workers is "crickets chirping".

I understand that spying on muslims squashes their right to privacy. As an American, I no longer feel I have much rights to privacy in a post Bush/Ashcroft world. I believe the NSA does listen to our phone calls and reads our emails. While I don't like it... it doesn't rise to the level of say, internment camp. Now that I have to live with the NSA listening to my phone calls and reading my email, I have little sympathy for muslims who have their privacy violated too. We all have had our privacy infringed upon, thanks to just 15 muslims (not millions).

I would have MUCH MORE sympathy if I there was something from the Muslim community that was palpable. If the SIKH community can get their message across that people who wear turbans aren't muslims, then surely the MUSLIM community can get their message across that people who worship in mosques aren't terrorists. Have they even tried? Again... all I hear from the muslim community is crickets chirping.

Lastly, I live 500 feet from an Islamic center. Nice people and good neighbors. They have a little signboard in front of their building that faces the road and they post a new message on this board once or twice a week. Never once did they ever condemn a violent act carried out by a Muslim or try to distance themselves from muslims who carry out violent acts. After a while, the silence gets interpreted as tacit approval.

Harold,

Alas, I have a "No Marriage to Random Dudes on the Internets" policy. Sorry.

:)

Continuing...

What would "doing enough" look like to you? Why are we judging this religion by a tiny minority? Every religion/demographic has equally violent tendencies, why not ask for denouncements and spy on them?

Sarah: I personally saw the videos after 9-11 so whether or not I can provide you links, sorry but it was all over the news. The main videos that were being shown were coming from the West Bank

I'm not a bible thumper either but regarding your statement about Christians and Muslims both causing plenty of death, ok I'll go along with that because you can go back far enough in history to prove that. However, you don't see Christian pastors inciting thousands of people each week to destroy the infidel. This is a Muslim characteristic. Outside of your 1 off's, the suicide bombings, terrorist attacks, and other plots like this are Muslims. Thus if you are looking for an apple you don't go to an orange grove. Where else would you suggest to look?

I have never heard a Jewish person or a Christian person professing that those that don't follow their religion deserve to die.

No? What about the ultra-orthodox Jews, both in Israel and in New York, who force women to sit in the back of the bus, who throw stones and spit on girls going to school, etc. And what about that Westboro church with their signs "God Hates Fags" and claiming that our war dead are because we as a nation tolerate gays? And even here on this very newsvine thread there are those suggesting that all Muslims should be killed. Hatred is alive and well, regardless of religion.

If there is something specific that you'd like to hear from your Muslim co-workers, or from the local mosque, then why not talk to them? What do you have to lose, except perhaps your misconceptions?

Muslims are not asking for your sympathy, only that the laws of our shared country apply equally, a guarantee under our Constitution.

Kayner,

But you do see Christians doing that. People like the Westboro Church, Pat Robertson, Anti-Abortion zeolots, a republican field that's using their faith to try and set back women and homosexuals centuries. It just looks different when it's shaded in a religion your society accepts. Hate is still hate, and it still leads to violence.

However, you don't see Christian pastors inciting thousands of people each week to destroy the infidel.

Do you see Imams in America inciting thousands each week to destroy the infidel? In specific cases where that may occur (assuming it ever does, here in the U.S.), I would hope that the FBI (not the CIA) would become involved rather quickly. We must not tolerate incitement to violence from any quarter. And that includes those who espouse wiping Muslims (or anyone else) off the face of the Earth.

The main videos that were being shown were coming from the West Bank

I assume this was in response to the request for proof that Muslims were celebrating in the streets *HERE* after 9/11. The West Bank is not the U.S. They can celebrate whatever they please there, I couldn't care less. But I've never seen any indication of celebrations by Muslims here in the U.S. The local non-Muslims would have responded with force to such a display, don't you think?

I heard some of your negative comments and all I have to say is we as Americans are no perfect and no better than them, if you say Americans dont trust Muslims so the Muslims dont trust Americans, Muslims are very Peaceful except when they are been provoked! Muslims would not mess with any one nor unless you mess with them!

Middle east mostly Muslims was peaceful until Israel invaded them and this is why we have this on going conflict and tension going on there and here because US support Israel. Imagine Muslims invading AMERICA!! if that was the case I wouldnt blame you for complaining! Americans Muslims do not want to be threated like strangers because you wouldnt like that either.

for the world to continue living we all need to communicate and work together as one to be able to make a difference and better future.

Harold of the Rocks:

You make a compelling argument, but to be blunt it is wrong.

First of all, there is plenty of RECENT history of people carrying out acts of extreme violence and using Christianity to justify it. Take the nearly 100 people killed in Norway by a CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN in the name of Christianity. Not big enough for you, how about the attempted genocide of Serbian Muslims in the Bosnian war? As for Jewish terrorism in the name of religion, there as been plenty in the news lately about Jewish groups attacking Palestinian communities in the Westbank region, do a simple google search.

If you want a more local example how about all of the many hate groups who use Christianity to wash down their bigoted message?

As for groups that have come out against terrorism, see my earlier post, or just do a quick google search like i did for "Muslim group against terrorism". There are plenty out there.

To your point about Muslims on a personal level distancing themselves from the attacks: Have you ever gone up to a Black man and told him that you disagree with the KKK and Skinheads and you hope that he won't judge you the same way? Of course you haven't, you don't (I am assuming) ascribe to their views and do not associate yourself with them. Therefore, you would find it ludicrous to be expected to apologize for their actions or distance yourself from them, you are already distanced by the mere fact that you are a reasonable human being. How is this any different for a law abiding decent Muslim?

Howie... the demand by Orthodox jews for women to sit in the back of the bus is WRONG, but not the same as killing those who don't believe like you. Muslims treat their women WAY worse than orthodox jews AND believe the infidel should be killed. Sorry, but I have yet to hear of New York Ortodoxy throwing stones at little girls going to school.

And PLEASE.. .stop using Westboro Baptist (a church of less than 100 people) as the standard for all of Christianity! There's 1000s of mosques... there's only 1 Westboro Baptist (thank God for small favors).

What would you like me to say to my fellow co-workers? "Hey, how come you never asked me to not to unfairly judge you, based on the actions of your fellow muslims?" Sorry... I feel it's incumbent upon them to say it, not me to ask them to say it. I get along great with my muslim co-workers. Everyone of them is good people.

Howie... they have every right to expect that "the laws of our shared country apply equally". All I'm saying is... now that the privacy rights have been stripped from you and I, they need to expect these privacy rights are stripped from them as well. ESPECIALLY considering that our privacy rights were stripped from us DUE TO 9/11.

Understand Howie that in general, I agree with you. I'm somewhat taking a "devil's advocate" position here to show that the this is far more complex than meets the eye.

And Sarah... the reason I love you so much is because I find you so smart and articulate. I had to assume a smart girl like yourself would have a "random dude on the internet" policy. So I'm not *that* heartbroken (just a little).

And PLEASE.. .stop using Westboro Baptist (a church of less than 100 people) as the standard for all of Christianity! There's 1000s of mosques... there's only 1 Westboro Baptist (thank God for small favors).

Harold, I thank you, and would like to point out, that what you said above is EXACTLY what we're trying to illustrate about U.S. Muslims, and how they're all being grouped together with the nutjobs, although the nutjobs AREN'T the norm.

Bill, not surprisingly, a lot of what you said made sense to me.

I do disagree that the whacko in Norway was motivated by Christianity. He was motivated by hate of liberals. His attack was purely political, not religious.

As for this.... "Have you ever gone up to a Black man and told him that you disagree with the KKK and Skinheads and you hope that he won't judge you the same way?"

Generally speaking... no. Specifically though... with each black person who has befriended me, whereas I've been able to interact with them in deep conversation, this has come up. And yes, I did ask that I be judged based on my own merits and not the many biases that white people show without even knowing it's offensive. It doesn't even have to get to the level of "skinheads" or "KKK".

Howie - apologies as you are correct with the palestinians celebrating over there. I missed the part about where they were celebrating

Sarah... the difference is that just about every Christian denounces the actions of Westboro Baptist Church.

If the amount of Muslims denouncing terror matched the amount of Christians denouncing Westboro Baptist, there'd be no issue here.

Sarah - your example of WBC is understood and maybe I don't know all the facts about this specific church. I do agree that every religion, race, and ethnic group has their own extremists. But regarding WBC, have they ever committed acts of violence or contributed to one? I've seen them SAY plenty of mean bigoted things, but never heard of any violence. IF this is correct, I don't see your comparison as a good one

Harold, I definitely agree with your last post. Good comment

Sarah... the difference is that just about every Christian denounces the actions of Westboro Baptist Church.

Harold, how so? I haven't heard any, and I wouldn't expect them to. I assume that most Christians aren't nutjobs and I don't feel a disclaimer is necessary. Just like I don't expect disclaimers from black people, denouncing inner-city violence, I don't expect them from white men denouncing seriel killing, yada, yada, yada...

Sarah.... I started to do Internet searches on phrases like "against Westboro Baptist", "Denounce Westboro Baptist", etc. I got hundreds of hits for each search. I quickly realized that for every website I post about denouncing WBC, you could find just as many links for Muslims against Terrorism.

I concede that once we go looking, we probably find what we're looking for. At this point, it's all a matter of perception. There are probably millions of Christians against WBC, and millions of Muslims against terrorism.

For me, my perception is that the Muslim community has more closely resembled "crickets chirping" when it comes to speaking out against Terrorism. Meanwhile, I feel like just about every American I know speaks out against WBC.

I will try to educate myself about muslims speaking out against terrorism. Maybe in the process, my perceptions of "crickets chirping" will go away. No guarantees, but I will at least make the effort.

I just wish the Islamic Center near my house would use their roadside signboard to make a statement. That would hit much closer to home. I know they don't owe me that... but it would still make a difference to me and probably my neighbors too.

Harold,

Thanks for at least listening. I live near Dearborn MI, which in case you didn't know has the highest concentration of Arabic/Islamic peoples in the U.S. and I promise you, that they too denounce the bad, just like Christians. Plus, their food is fan-freaking-tastic!

I'm Lebanese and grew up eating fan-freaking-tastic Arabic food. These days, I have to travel 200 miles back to my home town to get any.

I would like some too

The boogey men (AKA the Muslims) are coming to get you! What a joke. The politicians just divide and conquer us and we are grateful for their protection! HAHAHAHA

Sara as long as these worship places do not exhort one another to violent act or hatred by their so called clerics it's certainly is not ok to spy. prevention is better than be sorry later after carnage. Consider this Va S.A. goevernment funded school that promote hatred to non muslim imported textbook that's used troughout k-12 classroom these type of schools have no place in the US

for those claiming that muslims don't do enough to denounce terrorism, first, see Sara's extensive list of muslim organizations who have denounced it. But now just saying they denounce it might not be enough for y'all, so Second, I give you a quote from an FBI special agent..who is muslim..

""Terrorism is obviously what I try to prevent on a daily basis, because of the tremendous damage it does to America as well as to the Arab American and Muslim community. The individuals who commit these acts and falsely claim to be devout Muslims are greatly misguided and do not really understand the religion. I feel that it is my role and my duty, given my background and skills, to prevent any and all types of terrorism."

Ok, so this muslim guy's life is devoted to catching terrorists, hm.. I would say that is the EPITOME of denouncing terrorism. I can post the link if anyone is interested, there are endless examples I have found, including muslims working for the FBI who pose as extremists to trap them, police officers, and my personal favorite, Iraqi interpreters who risked their lives,(they were seen as traitors and risked being killed, and their families being killed) to aid the US soldiers in countless raids to root out the insurgents over there. These are brave selfless real live actions performed by muslims, not just sitting there and denouncing it, but taking action and sometimes risking their lives for it. You can find countless examples of this by simple google searches.

and Sara, all your posts are 100 percent spot on. It is also funny when people say, "oh well, Sara you should go to the middle east and see how badly they treat you, so why should we treat them with respect here?" That argument always cracks me up. Um hello, because "here" happens to be America, the whole POINT is that we DONT do things the way they do over there. That's what makes America, America. Anyone who doesn't like the level of respect we try to give to all religions and races can move to another country where those things are not respected.

Thanks Spiritus!

When the government was watching the KKK every white hillbilly with a pick up truck and a flat top haircut was under scrutiny.

When the FBI started watching biker gangs every long hair on a harley was under scrutiny.

When they watched the black panthers every black man with an huge fro and power pick was under scrutiny...

So why are muslims so special that they should be spared this??????

Stop blowing crap up and they will stop watching you.

And where do they go to recruit!

I do support the Muslims in this case

We as American are as bad as anybody else and we do commit acts of terrorism except we do it in the name of freedom, they do it in the name of Allah, so just shut your mouth, you are no perfect than them!

Maxee, you are a Muslim. Why do you refer to your fellow Muslims as "they"? You should be saying "we" when you talk about how Muslims commit terror in the name of Allah.

Yonker : why dont you come here and teach me what I have to say and how I have to say it since you think you know it all!

Steve -

If you think we didn't start this, you have no concept of our international relations and history.

And you might also try figuring out why Iran hates our ass so much.

Wouldn't we hate some country if they overthrew our government and installed their own 'puppet' in it's place... That's what we did to Iran when we installed the 'Shah'

You know the old saying - "What goes around - Comes Around" - We've pulled a lot of @!$%# around the world, and eventually some birds have had to come home to roost.....

Old Squid, thank you. I had an argument with a friend of mine who is in the military and I spoke those same words about what goes around, comes around. I also said that you (big kid) don't keep hitting someone (like a smaller kid) and getting away with it because one day the little kid is going to pick up something and hit back.

Old Squid, do your remember Daniel Pearl? Just look at the atrocities that Muslims have committed in just the past ten years; it is proof we haven't done enough. I wouldn't have worried about blowing up Mosques, I'd have ordered the Sherman March from Pakistan to Morocco and this war would have been over six years ago.

You are operating under the presumption, squid, that the hatred only comes from Iran and not all Muslim nations. The hatred comes mostly from the Wahhabi teachings in Saudi Arabia - a jihad against all but the "true" believers in Islam. Since the US is a big target, that is where the bastardation of the religion is most directed.

Bookem' Danno

I merely used Iran as an example. On 9/11 we weren't attacked by any Iranians, Iraqiis, nor Afghanis.

But we've invaded two of those countries and are poised to take out the nuclear program of a the third.

Simply because you 'assume' don't believe I do.

Was Afghanistan not were training of terrorists took place? Was it not a stronghold of al Queda? Didn't our current president say that is where we should have been fighting (when he committed more troops)?

You state we weren't attacked by people of the nations you mentioned, which is true. But, do you not think that funding for the terrorists directly and indirectly came from these countries - at least people of these countries if not the government? If you don't, I believe you are naive.

I do believe there is a justifiable argument to be made against going into Iraq as there is judtifiable argument to going into Iraq. Personally, I've changed my views to be more against the action than for it. Isn't hindsight a great thing?

The funding came from Saudi Arabia

The guys Bush II was holding hands with.

Absolutely 100% correct. Muslims cause problems in every country they go to. France, England, Australia, you name it, these people are just bad seeds that have no place in a civilized society. Get the hell out of our country and go back to the sh.t pit you came from!!

Lest we recall what the world was like centuries ago.

Once Mohammed died (around 660 A.D.), Islam spread it errors throughout the world BY THE SWORD. Muslims were killing thousands of Christians across the Middle East, Northern Africa and Asia Minor leading up to the first Crusade around 1100 A.D.

Too many people cite the Crusades as European-Christian bullying. While some bad seeds were in the bands that attempted to push back the invading, aggressive Muslims (and yes, some Jews were killed in the 600 years of the period involving all six Crusades), the Crusades WERE DEFENSIVE.

The Ottoman Empire (Constantinople) petitioned the nobility and Catholic Church in Europe to the west for help in repelling the blood-thirsty Muslims. From 670 to 1100 AD, Islam converted by blood the then-Christian lands of Egypt, Libya, the Middle East and Asia Minor.

Few Americans did world history (or passed it), but Islamic forces invaded Europe -- as far as Venica and Rome itself. The Crusades were to protect Christians still living in and traveling along routes back tot he Holy Land. And, mind you, the latter Crusades failed (how can that be seen as Imperialism!?!?!), and we have the modern veil of Islam in modern nationstates today.

As for the present issue. Let the Muslim leaders boycott. It's their American (constitutional) right to do so. Unlike in Islamic regimes, we don't kill those who don't attend, or toss a bomb or cite Allah as the immediate need to kill others.

As for "constitutionality" of "spying" on Muslims...we are stripped of civil rights when we fly in airports. There is no specific, reasonable threat, yet Americans are searched illegally. Merely watching and monitoring Muslim groups and assemblies is hardly unreasonable. And to think (apparently one woman here is so naive and proud of it) the US government doesn't already spy or research any individual or group, etc. that has seedy or suspicious intentions or ideas, youi're pretty damn stupid.

Stop the BS, you are spot on! And I thank you for being so articulate. It saddens me that there are people as naive and just plain stupid as that "one woman here".

I have been following the path of Islam since the early 1970's. It is a theo-political system, NOT a religion. I have come to the sorry conclusion that if 911 didn't wake up the American public, nothing will. Still, each time there is another terrorist act perpetrated by a muslim, I too become naive, thinking "Gee maybe this is the event that will wake up the western world." But alas, no. We are not the nation we were when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, and that change in mentality will be our eventual demise, I fear. Reading the posts of Sarah and Lori & other muslim apologists just confirms my opinion. The tragic irony is that people of their mindset will be the first ones to be eliminated in a Muslim, Sharia law nation. Think it can't happen? It has already started.

BTW, I don't live in the US anymore. My husband and I are ex-pats. But we certainly didn't leave the US because of lack of freedoms.

and they still won't come out and denounce terrorists...

wake up call to all you 9-11 morons. 9-11 was an inside job with bombs exploding at the base. wake the hell up you idiots.

overallthebs

"9-11 was an inside job with bombs exploding at the base."

___________________________________________

Are you incoherent and delusional all of the time, or just when you are posting here?

and we need to free the prisoners from Guantanamo, at about 30,000 feet without a parachute.

Muslims are very good at playing the victim and using propaganda to further their cause which is expansion. I have known enough Muslims to know that even the moderate ones feel they must support extremist Muslims by turning a blind eye to the agressive movement growing in this country and throughout the world. This propaganda by so called moderates that separates them from extremistsis is just that propaganda. The Koran teaches they are duty bound to kill or oppress those who will not convert.

Exactly! Thank you. Muslim groups are the "seedy clan of the times", so of course they'll be monitored like a newborn.

Well I, for one, am honored to be a subversive group.

Does anyone have female prophets in ANY major religion? You're all followers of false doctrine. Especially "Christians." Christians in this world, for the most part, are heretical to the very teachings of Jesus. Love? Understanding? Forgiveness? Hypocrites all. When the going gets tough, they disregard Jesus and start quoting the murderer "apostle" Paul or Old Testament BS they otherwise say to disregard. So keep calling the kettle black, pot.

The Jews had a woman judge - Deborah. Miriam, sister of Moses, was a prophetess. The wife of Isaiah was also a prophetess, but not named. There was also a prophetess named Huldah.

In the New Testament, a prophetess named Anna is mentioned in Luke as identifying Jesus as Messiah when he was taken to the temple as a baby. Also, the New Testament church had Priscila, a teacher, the daughters of Philip, all prophetesses, and Phoebe, a deaconess.

So you see, although not in equal numbers, both Old Testament Judaism and New Testament Christianity had women in positions of spiritual leadership. As for Paul, I am quite sure you must not have read his writings. He wrote much about love and forgiveness. Hw was the author of I Corinthians 13, considered the greatest description of unconditional love ever written.

Humans are inherently weak and will sin, regardless of creed, sex, age, etc.

However, the modern New Age bullsh*t about ecumenicalism and "it's all the same" has undermined peace and prosperity worldwide. Too many throw out the sins/errors commited by HUMANS (Yes, even those professed as Christians remain imperfect) as "proof" of the valid Truths revealed by Christ fulfillment of Jewish covenant.

Just because some "christians" are crappy people, you can't throw out the baby with the bathwater, John Brown. Many truths of Christianity are "beyond the time or beyond the ages."

While arrogant, self-serving Protestants will mock the importance of Mary, the Mother of God. (Note, Catholics NEVER worship her, but it is called veneration). SHe remains the ULTIMATE human, feminine example to all mankind when it comes to female energy/aspiration with God.