In another story about this (can't remember if it was MSNBC or not), they said that this apartment complex is largely empty. So they really didn't have any close neighbors.

Oh, please! How ignorant - Texas isn't the only state with killers.

People in my neighborhood shoot fire crackers ALL the time and some do sound like gunshots. But not to hear anyhting? This is a very tragic and I am SO sorry. Ryoushi12.....Really? Be nice.

"I did research and chose to live here because of the safety and the school district," she said. "I'm glad my kids weren't here. They're with their dad."

This was not a SERIAL KILLER spree. It was a Family "Situation".

My how quickly we jump into DRAMA!

Memphis Kelly,

Sure, everyone wants to pack heat as they sit around with family opening Christmas presents. You gun nuts are something else.

Deb, you obviously missed the point of the post! Owning a gun doesn't mean you are a gun nut! Read the 2nd ammendment. Are you opposed to free speech too? Freedom of Religion? Get real and take off the blinders!

read the article again. many of the apartments were vacant!

No, a person killed with a gun used as the weapon.

If he had used a garden sprayer full of gasoline and a bic lighter would it be any less horrific? How about a good dose of cyanide in the Xmas punch? Heck forget cyanide, how about a gallon of sweet antifreeze in the Xmas punch? People intent on killing will kill and there are many ways to kill multiple people fast. This is an issue of a nut, not of a gun.

Bill Thomas:

Debs answer, along with others who think like her, would be a resounding YES!

Had there been more like her back in 1776 we all would be speaking with a British accent, and saying "god save the queen."

stoopid, thanks for sharing, I never remember how to set up place settings.

Bill & Believer, its clear Deb was responding to the statement, 'If one of the victims of this senseless slaughter has a gun, perhaps it wouldn't have happened!' in the context of a Christmas morning. Heck, with it being Christmas morning, the family (except for the gun man) was probably sitting around in their pajamas when the guy started firing. If its your daddy shooting, he knows a lot more than just who's been naughty or nice, he knows what you own, and where you keep it and your wallet. So, lots a luck making a run for the family gun stash when daddy is fully aware of where you're headed.

Ban all knives since they kill people also.

I for one have already learned. No truly "sane" person is going to slaughter his family, or any innocent for that matter, for any reason, with any weapon. Until you fix "insanity" the insane will continue to kill innocence people. Outlaw guns, they will use knives. Outlaw knives they will use clubs. Outlaw clubs they will use rocks .... etc, etc.

I don't understand why this is so hard for some to understand.

Do you think it was a steer in a Santa outfit?

How many people die in automobiles every year?

Do you want to ban automobiles next?

Yeh Mom. Tex-ass.

You better watch out, you better not cry, you better not pout I'm tellin you why.

Santa Clause is coming with a gun...

Yes it's in bad taste, I'll say it before you, but this has nothing to do with a Santa suit, but everything to do with a disturbed family member and family issues that didn't seek help. It's obvious there was something wrong with this man, but what is done is done, so RIP to all of them, and hopefully people will read this story and get some professional help if and when needed.

Guns are not the solutions to the problems in family disputes, talking and communication is.

for all of you afraid of terrorists take note...insurance stats once again proved here...the most dangerous place in terms of murder is your own home by your own "loved ones".....merry xmas...the most wonderful time of the year...

Folks, as a Texan and a gun owner...this debate is ridiculous.

First, my condolences to the relatives and extended families of this horrible tragedy.

Now, for the response to the prevailing winds in this thread debate:

The 2nd Amendment is very, very clear...A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Sounds pretty straight forward. Especially the "shall not" part.

Now, I know this will set off a whole new direction about militia and etc., as it always does...and I'm sorry about that.

What we are dealing with here is an obviously distressed individual, or an individual who is psychologically unbalanced in some way, who committed a reprehensible act upon other individuals.

The tools that this individual chose to use has become the focus of the debate, rather than the act. Amazing.

Last, for those of you who choose to be disrespectful to the Great State of Texas which I call home...there's a reason that we fly one star on our flag, feel free to research the reasoning. What you think of us, really doesn't matter much.

God Bless Texas.

This would never have happened if the elves had been armed. Little bitty handguns in tiny hands could have prevented this.

And besides, law enforcement should have seen this coming. That Santa guy works one flipping day a year and draws unemployment, food stamps, Medicaid, and the rest of the welfare drawn by shiftless bums like Claus. Why doesn't get a job?

All of you bad-mouthing Texas: Stop and do a reset on Detroit (an estimated 1.5 million firearms in a city of only 1.2 million people), New York City (AVG 2 HOMICIDES PER DAY, Boston (Strangler) on and on . . .

All gun issues aside - Texas just flat out sucks, no matter what your viewpoint...

So some sick SOB blows away his family who happen to be living in Texas, and now the board lights up with anti-gun, anti-Texas comments. I'm waiting for someone to blame santa suits.

dudugger: Well, as someone once remarked, don't like Texas, well, who really cares about what you think?

Agreed, Tom. This is no place to make stereotyped statements. This was an ambush. If my brother-in-law went nuts Christmas morning, I'd be dead long before I could ever reach my Beretta 45 cal in my hall gun cabinet. That's a fact. If this shooter had reasonable intelligence, the shooter had all the cards. We can't treat our families like just some guy beating down our doors. Treating family that way is no life, period. If you look into the abyss long enough, the abyss looks into you. The 2nd Amendment has a clear purpose as Tom says, and it isn't going to fix Christmas morning.

...the board lights up with anti-gun comments???? you're stereotyping. Quit feeding the anti gun groups.

Those that are posting that they are opposed to guns would have rather it had been a knife that was used? No? A ball bat then. No? A car. No? A..........(you choose).

@TomSawyer801

The U.S. has the most murders and violent crimes per capita and the highest incarceration rate of any major industrial nation (by a FACTOR of THREE).

Why is that? Until you have looked into the answer for that question, you have no credibility. Quoting from the Constitution does not change the situation on the ground. Are you planning to carry a copy in your back pocket and then use it as a shield when someone comes to shoot you or beat you up?

There is something seriously wrong with the American gene pool. It's not a Texas thing; it's an AMERICAN thing.

If we could only purify the gene pool... LOL

Larry-1274601, it's not true that the U.S. has the most murders and violent crimes per capita of any major industrial nation -- not if you correlate by ethnicity. The high overall count means only that the U.S. has the highest percentage of Latin Americans and descendants of slaves of any major industrial nation. Why is that, you ask? It's because we had slave plantations in our mainland instead of overseas where (upon losing control of them) we could just leave, and because we share a large unguarded border with Mexico.

"God made man, Sam Colt made man equal" Myself, I can see it, I just feel better when I leave the house with my friend. I'm always packing and if the occassion occurs, where I have to pull it out, its going to be used. No bluffing, no telling anyone I'm packing, no nothing, don't make me pull it out and it won't be used, that simple. Maybe people that don't understand this, need to be robbed once at gun point, I'm almost positive their thinking will change after that. Mine did.

I for one have already learned. No truly "sane" person is going to slaughter his family, or any innocent for that matter, for any reason, with any weapon.

You have to overlook all the children killed or maimed by guns that they "find" lying around, loaded, in their family homes. Didn't a three year old just kill a five year old a few days ago?

Until you fix "insanity" the insane will continue to kill innocence people.

Insanity can't be fixed. So virtually unrestricted gun ownership simply means we have an acceptable number of innocents being killed each year in order to preserve the right of gun ownership. It's the price society is willing to pay.

Outlaw guns, they will use knives. Outlaw knives they will use clubs. Outlaw clubs they will use rocks .... etc, etc.

I think if this man had tried to kill six other adults with a knife or a club, they would have been able to overpower him before he killed them all...and it's a lot harder to commit suicide with a club.

I'm not against gun ownership...but let's not pretend that guns aren't unique in their abiity to kill many people in a short amount of time, at varying distances.

I don't understand why this is so hard for some to understand.

Violently crazy people might try to kill others, guns don't make them violent or crazy...they just make it a lot easier for them to succeed.

That's because you live in a society full of paranoid gun-lovers who will use any excuse to justify their paranoia. The fact that America has become the most dangerous country on the planet, civilised or uncivilised, should tell you all you need to know. Our "well-armed militia" has devolved into a culture of rage, frustration and violence, where people learn from an early age to settle disagreements with force. This murderer was just a blip on the radar in a country where daily cold-blooded killings barely even turn our heads anymore. We just sidestep and walk around the bodies on the pavement.

It's already far too late to save ourselves. Killing and guns are in our genes, intrinsic to our national identity. The rest of the world has known it for decades - we're a country that never grew out of our Wild West mentality, and the only reason we're even allowed to walk the same halls as truly civilised nations is because...you guessed it...we have the biggest guns!

Oh, great, just great! I can already see the newest quote that the 2nd Amendment misinterpreters will use to justify possession of rapid-fire, large clip automatic weapons:

"Guns don't kill people. Santa kills people."

There are no good guns. There are no bad guns. A gun in the hands of bad man is a bad thing. Any gun in the hands of a good man is no threat to anyone... except bad people.

God bless these victims

Perfect reply!!

Bureau of Stats show that the majority of gun death are suicides. Of whats left, the majority of those are good people shooting bad people in self defence (justified). The remaining gun shot deaths are typically people with criminal records already. The horrific innocent deaths sound like a lot lately (population and communications growth). Since we do not here about the justified gun shootings, how can anyone make a determination that guns are bad? More good people are alive today because of guns.

If guns don't kill people, I suggest we let gun activists have their guns, just stop making bullets.

silber Larry-1274601, it's not true that the U.S. has the most murders and violent crimes per capita of any major industrial nation -- not if you correlate by ethnicity. The high overall count means only that the U.S. has the highest percentage of Latin Americans and descendants of slaves of any major industrial nation. Why is that, you ask? It's because we had slave plantations in our mainland instead of overseas where (upon losing control of them) we could just leave, and because we share a large unguarded border with Mexico.

You have the most ignorant collection of mistruths posted this year. You actually have the audacity to blame the crime rate in the U.S. on ethnicity? Why don't you stop being a coward, cut out the BS and just say what you want to. The US has a high incarceration rate because the majority of people that are incarcerated are there for non-violent crime, and most of them for possession of illegal, and legal drugs. The crime rate is NOT the result of the garbage that you say it is for. Violent crime is also not an ethnic problem my clueless adversary because you too are of ethnic decent. Clearly you are not someone that uses your brain for thinking. You use it as ballast to keep from tipping over in high wind, or when climbing stairs.

If guns kill people, I suggest the police shouldn't be carrying them either. I mean, killing people is never a good thing, right?

proclaimed by the state Senate as the "Christmas Capital of Texas" for its abundance of annual holiday-season events.

Limitless possibilities for additional holiday-season events.

Most murders in the US are committed with guns, and most gun murderers use hand guns. Year after year. Just check the FBI crime stats. And, I've heard that for every one killed, six are injured.

The word 'hand gun" does not appear in the US constitution. There are lots of "arms" that you are not allowed to have. Try to buy a hand grenade, cannon, or bazooka.

Hand guns are excellent weapons for killing. You can conceal them until you are upon your victim. Who would you bet on, the armed assailant or the armed intended victim?

If we cannot ban private citizens from possessing hand guns, I would suggest making the "conceal carry" requirement (used in most states) the requirement for any/all hand gun possession.

No one heard gunshots because the apartments close to the shooting were vacant.

I bet Mrs Claus was really pissed with the Mister Claus,...Dumb Santa...

Whenever a tragedy like this happens the gun argument starts all over again. The sad truth is as long as there are organizations like the NRA that do nothing but disrupt and muddy any sensible debate on this subject we will never fix the problem. BTW, I'm a highly trained gun owner and not an NRA member because the NRA is nothing but a lobbying front for gun manufacturers. I despise these kind of lobbyists because their driven by corporate profit and don't give a damn about public safety. I would like to hear ideas that are reasonable concerning gun control without talking about out and out prohibition of firearms especially for law abiding, mentally stable, responcible gun owners......Lets face it, sensible steps must be taken to get guns out the hands of criminals and mentally unstable individuals, the question is what and how.

The fact that America has become the most dangerous country on the planet, civilised or uncivilised, should tell you all you need to know

Ding, ding, ding... And we have a winner! The award for the stupidest comment on the board goes to - Acoustictherapy Congradulations!

, I would suggest making the "conceal carry" requirement (used in most states) the requirement for any/all hand gun possession.

Where I live in, and in every state that I know of,you need to pass the same background check with the same restrictions to purchase a handgun as you do to get a CCW. As far as possession, how would you enforce that?

rather looking at the point the crime happened, why not figure out why it happened? it is kind of crazy parrot talk to come out with ban guns, and so on, when the real problem manifested its self, the person could have done this with a knife or other had they wanted to.

obviously they splait up, and the way we women get our way most times in court, he might have had his azz handed to him. a reason to kill the people, i dont know to be honest. ive met people in my time who eed nothing less than a round between the eyes... but if we want to all ride the liberal exspress.. we dont solve problems, just try to avoid them, look the other way, or blame the other guy.

i dont think one person here can vouch for the integrity of any of the people who were killed... so how can you justify they were good people? even honest people? how about people that never did anyone any harm or ill will to the point, it turned into this? My thing is... if you treat people the way you want to be treated, even being a minority, i have no problem getting treated well back. and i cant say white people, get treated any better, or worse. some people i think need the racial, government, or other type of hobby to occupy wasted space, cause i dont see a lot of the actions, or other in the real world some of you tend to ramble about.

these people died... who killed them and why a mystery to us, yet the blame flows like a river doesnt it?

Here is what the justice department says about murder stats and ethnicity.

The truth might set some free while some just refuse to believe it.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm

And Big Al, you have no clue what the NRA is. It is largest gun safety organization in the history of the world. Tell me how many safety class has the Brady group ever conducted? The answer is none.

The laws are already in place to keep guns out of the hands of those who shouldn't have them and the NRA supports those laws. You might look to the ACLU who is always defending those who shouldn't have guns.

Someone doesn't know their math, Mexico has had more murders than they can count. lots of knifing's, be headings, shootings the list just keeps going. and assault rifles are more popular than hand guns, your not going to stop murders and taking away the defenses of the law abiding citizen wont stop the criminals, so use your brain,

I understand their was a Santa suit involved do you want to outlaw that as well?

Acoustictherapy

What civilized or uncivilized countries are you talking about? Which ones don't have killings (murder) or suicides in? Japan? (where they had to ban the ownership of "hunting" knives because of attacks there), Britain? (where after the banned the ownership of guns - personal attacks (homicides, robbery, etc) jumped dramatically. You want guns banned? Fine give me the civilized society first, guarantee me (or anyone else) that crime will stop first, that I (or anyone else) can walk the streets, drive my car, live at home without having to worry that some sick SOB will try and take my life (maybe yours)!!!You say that killing and guns are ingrained in our DNA, that we haven't gotten past our Wild West mentality of using violence to settle issues. Well I can tell you there are a lot more people in this work who do settle their issue non violently, who do own and carry guns and do not settle their issues non violently. You want to think that banning guns will give you a civilized society, well where guns have been banned, they still don't have their civilized society. Take away the reason why people use guns (or knives, etc.) and then you will have your civilized society.

Listen, I'm a liberal conservative Independent and I own guns. Not to carry around with me at all times but to protect me if I go out in nature.

In Florida there are predators that will attack and kill people for food. One must have a weapon to protect themselves because we all aren't Tarzans that can kill a wild beast with a knife. The same in Montana, S.Dakota, N Dakota,etc. where wild animals can attack at any time.

We have hunters that legally hunt and eat what they kill so they need weapons whether it be a crossbow, handgun, or a rifle.

This killing in Texas was an unfortunate incident and it's related with neither weapon nor location. If not a gun he could have strapped explosives under his jolly Santa suit and blown everyone up at once. I'm not sure what would cause a person to go off the deep end but finances was mentioned. Still why a person would kill everyone he could before taking his own life is beyond my understanding of human nature. I just pray that the surviving members of their families can find peace after this tragedy.

Forget the firearms debate.......BAN RELATIONSHIPS. Most of these atrocities, murders, beatings, arguements, child abductions etc. all originate from two people forming a relationship then becoming incapable of dealing with it.

No more domestic violance, spouse beatings, divorce disputes, child custody issues...crime would drop by half just by acknowledging people are to stupid to manage their own pathetic personal lives and relationships.

Ban alcohol also and crime would drop 80% across the country.

Emotions (especially drunken emotions) lead to more violence than all of the firearms in the world.

Ban alcohol also and crime would drop 80% across the country.

Didn't work before.

Maybe we really need a satire/sarcasm button because it's hard to tell if you're serious or being sarcastic.

When and how will this gun madness end?

as soon as you stop reading the news, I guess...

When and how will this gun madness end?

When people no longer resort to violence to solve their problems.

We do destruction better than anyone. Our number one export is violence. Look at out most popular video games and movies, it's all about the violence. Hell, we love violence in this country, we're really good at it.

When will the madness end? Well just say you could push the "EASY' button and ALL firearms in the world just disappeared. The first ones would be manufactured within days and they would spread like wild-fire.

Until then murder by bombs, knifes, baseball bats etc. will continue.

People kill each other. It sucks. I don't know why but they do.

We are getting hosed!

Are you saying before guns that nobody got killed? What color is the sky in your world?

when jerks like you stop blaming guns for events like this

*Sells bob-3895945 tin foil hats in bulk*

Thats true Rockyroad; Guns only make it easier to someone vs. a knife or baseball bat. Guns are also less messy than the two I mentioned, at least for the shooter. You can almost leave a shooting without any blood on you with a gun, as to a knife or baseball bat, your going to have to clean up. So sure guns have become the weapon of choice, unless your a real wacko and looking for the effects of killing someone with a baseball bat, with a fresh snow back ground. Its a shame it even comes to the point where killing is the answer and thats what blows me away about this and it was family here in this case. How and why a family can't recognize when a family member is in deep need of some understanding, then this is what happens. Its called compromise, something this country knows very little about.

So who are you going to blame, Bob? Guns are cheap, easy to get, can be used with relative detachment and at close range you don't even need to be very good with them to acheive your goals. In a matter of seconds the killing spree is over. Florida just had an incident where some teenager bought TWO AK-47's at a gun show. Took them home and for several weeks afterwords he'd walk into a gun shop owned by an ex-cop and buy 100 rounds of ammo and a 30 shot clip. 30 shot clips. Huh. Where have we seen this before? Claimed he was going target pacticing. How the heck do you not see what happened next coming? PARTICULARLY if you're an EX-COP! Yep, he went on the usual shooting binge. Lukily he only wounded this time because of his intended victims being in a concrete block house. Had it been wood frame you'd be up on your hind-legs standing up for his right to be insane there, too.

I seriously doubt he would have done this if he'd had to use a knife or poison. A knife is too personal and poison too unsure while a gun pretty much guarantees you'll get the job done. So who do you blame, Bob? Ant-gun people like the other gun lover? "Oh, if only the family was fully armed...." WHEN OPENING GIFTS IN THEIR OWN HOME?!!! Yeah, never know when grandma's gonna try to make off with your Nintendo.

This madness already ended. It ended when the killer killed himself.

As a seventy-one year old female, I can tell you that you need to look to the people who make violent videos, porn and hidden messages in advertising, etc Before you call me a crazy old fart, do a bit of research (the ones who actually think outside the box) This world is so screwd up on drugs people can't form a thought anymore. I believe in free speech, but it is like a carpet that you can sweep a lot of crap under. Back in the seventies, the most naughty thing on television was "Soap" and of course it was the decade of "COKE"

Huh

What are your sources? An incident like that would have got national attention. Pretty vague, some place in Florida.

violence IS the answer...that's why we drop several trillion dollars worth of bombs on other countries...just ask o'bomba and bushman and clinker etc...the reason you don't comment on that is because your santa claus happy news doesn't show you the results.

There are no good guns. There are no bad guns. A gun in the hands of bad man is a bad thing. Any gun in the hands of a good man is no threat to anyone... except bad people.

God bless these victims

Anyone who says guns should be banned because they make it much easier to kill people than using a knife, bat, etc. need to look at the materials used by Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City. Using legal and readily available materials to construct his weapon of choice, he was able to kill many more people than he would have been able to using any type of gun. So clearly, fertilizer is a much bigger threat than firearms are.

TPMilwaukee,

I believe you have it right...

dano

this here isnt Jane, its her BF, and i asked if i could comment...

i am an advid hunter. it puts meat on the table, and saves $$. it cuts down on the senceless slaughter of animals in over populated areas. i also am not a stupid man. i wasnt raised by a gun owning family, other than for hunting. back then we never locked our doors, where as now you dont have enough locks on them. i have 3 children. i taught them the responsibility of gun safety, and ownership. ii also keep a gun for protection. like most families, it sits in its spot untill needed, or relocation is needed. it does not give me a false sense of security.
Just a feeling if someone does break into my house, i have a chance to protect myself, and my loved ones.

i was taught to even the odds. someone breaks into my house while we are sleeping, or what have you, there is contingency plans pending the situation. only one of them involves getting the glock. i think i would rather pop a hole between someones eyes, verses seeing any member of my family harmed.

this guy who killed all these people had his own reasons. good or not, they were his, and he carried them out. if you live in fear every gun owner is out to get you... i would worry more about the non legal owners, and not having a plan if someone does break in during the middle of the night. i would be worried because the person who illegally has that gun, has more to lose than any of us do... he/she, is more apt to use it, rather than not. they will go to prison if caught, not you. that makes for a desparate unbalanced individual... taking guns from good people wont fix it... you can take all the guns, from every lasy breathing human on this earth.... and those same people will find 500 other ways to kill you if they want/have to.

instead of going out like a weak sick dog, whimpering for my, or my families life in some corner, begging for the violence to stop while these same people get off on it, isnt in the books. i am a man... i protect my own, and keep it that way.

Stunned Kiwi

"A very merry Christmas
And a happy New Year
Let's hope it's a good one
Without any fear"

- John Lennon, NYC, 1980

"When and how will this gun madness end?"

Maybe when the mad stop blaming guns for the acts of the mad.

At this point we can all agree it is time to ban handguns.

takenaka

"At this point we can all agree it is time to ban handguns."

At this point we can all agree it is time to ban the ban handguns crowd. See how dumb your statement was and how easy it was to throw it back at you?

You have a right to own guns, if you choose to. You don't have a right to ban a right.

I agree with Kelly (1.8). Gun ownership is a great defense for the innocent!

If we would revoke the 2nd ammendment, and outlaw guns, like some posters here suggest, then only the criminals would have guns! This is an old and well used agrument for gun ownership and it is true!

When I had to work in L.A. many years ago I saved my bacon three times by pointing a firearm at someone who wanted to rob and maybe kill me.

I don't carry anymore - I live in Denver but I just may start.

A tragic event. Why don't these people do society a favor, take some bad guys with you if you're going to commit suicide.

Mark fr Tahoe... If your life or freedom were being threatened, who would be the best person to help you? A liberal or a conservative? Easy choice right! ... go with the conservative!

If you called a liberal, both of you would die while the liberal attempted to dialog with the threat. A conservative would stop the threat before it accelerated out of control!

EvaPeron; What are you talking about?

EvaPeron is an idiot! The preposterous scenario and result is an example.

I prefer to assume the liberal would be successful in negotiating a settlement like a civilized person. The conservative would resort to gun waving, maybe shooting few innocent people along with the possible perp. Kind of like what conservative thinking did in Iraq, costing thousands of innocent, trusting, American lives.

Um, "hose", how many of those people trying to rob you were family members? And, um, Eva, Mark was agreeing with you. Scary how some of these peopel are armed and less than cognizant.

John and Jakes remarks are the only ones that make sense here.

@ Cleareye:

I prefer to assume the liberal would be successful in negotiating a settlement like a civilized person.

EvaPeron may indeed be an idiot (although the stereotype he or she describes is deeply rooted in observable behavior), but you know what happens when you assume......... you make an ass out of you, and given your assumption probably a few more dead folks at the hands of a sicko.

I carry all the time (yes, even when unwrapping presents on Christmas day, and feel much better that at least I have a flipping chance of self-defense for me, my family, and yes.......innocent bystanders.

There are too many pacifists that are willing to look to the police state for protection and damn those evil guns.......I say they are just so pussified that the thought of taking personal responsibility for their own safety is just too damn scary.

Too bad we live in a world where sick, twised, @!$%#s do really bad stuff....but since we do.....I'm packing.......some day maybe I'll get the honor of saving your sorry ass.

cleareye (foggymind),

EvaPeron was commenting on the many liberals here that are attacking gun owners and Texans as the reason for this sensless tragedy! Everytime a horrible story like this breaks they flock to the site to pontificate! Like stink on sh!t they want to outlaw guns and then all of society's problems will be solved!

Like Eva, I prefer the conservative side of this argument! It is the conservatives that will save the liberals.... not the other way around! This has been proven many times in our history, but the libbies are in denial about it!

I agree with you moondog99; I had a (I'm assuming) crackhead trying to enter my house, if he looked in the window, which he did, he had to see me laying on the couch. I screwed that up and he got away. Thats ok, because your not allowed to shoot them outside, but if they enter your home, its ok then. I think EvaPeron thinks all liberals and all conservatives are alike? Myself, I'm just worried about protecting myself. If someone enters my home unannounced, its on them after that. We're having a gun fight. I hate to have to fix all the gun holes after the shootings over with, but it sure beats getting beat or shot by some idiot, wanting a little money for some crack. If someone enters my home, they are going to be shot, without a doubt. I have guns in almost every room that are withing my reach and if you don't know they are there, you won't be able to just find them. My last resouce for protection is my shotgun along with a belt of 12ga. shells, just incase I miss a few times. If it comes to me having to resort to the shotgun, they would have to be very elusive for that to happen. I really doubt they will get past my 9mm with a clip of 16 hollow points, along with my .380 I carry all the time and even sleep with. Right there I'll empty 22 shots at someone wanting to come into my home uninvited. I really doubt I'll have to go beyond that because not only do I own guns but I also practice shooting them. I'm pretty good, I don't think I'll miss. The first dozen or so shots will be to distract the invader, the then next shots after that will be aimed. I figure the first dozen shots will buy me some time to put the bead on them. Sorry, thats how I feel, I would never go into someones home uninvited, I would never rob anyone. I would never do something to anyone else that I don't want happening to me.

eva, moondog, joe.....i'm with you guys.........my liberal definition goes like this.....they will without a problem give your money away, but not theirs. when it comes to self defense..... they are willing to fight to every last drop of YOUR blood......it's a sacrifice they say, but one their willing to make.....hmmmmm as for me i live in texas.......and i am packing.....have been all my life.....have only had to pull a piece twice.......never had to fire in both instances.......it's not that easy to shoot someone when they are hauling ass....in the opposite direction, running like a striped baboon.. other than some ruined underwear in both instances.......no one was...hurt....so being a gun owner does this make me a violent person? no but had these people pressed their point.....it would have made a peace loving man ready to do violence.....i like living.......and take a dim view of anyone trying to keep me from living.......so until utopia becomes a reality.....i'm packing......sorry libs....your idea of peace, love ,bobby sherman.....and the government......(protecting) you is flawed leave me and my family alone.....and i will leave you and yours alone.....try and harm me and mine.....and you are gonna have more holes in you than bill clinton's testimony........

Being an independent thinker I hate that this boils down to Conservative Vs. Liberal. I tend to be liberal on some matters and conservative at others.

I think there are many liberals that have a spine when it comes to this issue (the issue of self protection and the right to bear arms), however they don't speak up like their Kumbaya singing brethren.

Even "gun nuts" find this massacre outrageous, it's just that we don't blame the gun, we blame the idiot how used it to kill defenseless people. But, some day a "gun nut" may save your bacon so be careful what you wish for........ban guns and only crims will have them......and defiant gun nuts..........

same here.......we need to have a middle of the road approach to politics....but sadly enough that is not the case...too far left and too far right......not good either way........so i tend to stay away from politics......and concentrate on my small section of the planet........and i get out and vote.......its all you can do not to pull your hair out when you are voting for the lesser of two evils.....frustrating....

Cleareye: "I prefer to assume the liberal would be successful in negotiating a settlement like a civilized person."

1) Negotiating a settlement like a civilized person? What makes you think he'd be negotiating with a civilized person?

2) Remember what happens when we "assume"...

I agree with the person who said if you're planning to commit mayhem, do the world a favor and shoot yourself first!

If someone breaks into your house with the intention of doing you harm I don't think a dialogue will do you much good, it might piss him/her off and cause them to add a little torecherto the mix before they plant that ball pene hammer into your skull. that has happened! don't forget Duncans weapon of choice in North Idaho a few years ago.The gun didnt do it a sick person did it. and to top it off we don't even have the full story yet there were two guns. maybe it was a confrontation, was the Santa even invited? what caused the rage? all we have is questions.

Cleareye

"EvaPeron is an idiot! The preposterous scenario and result is an example."

Quite the oppsite

"I prefer to assume the liberal would be successful in negotiating a settlement like a civilized person. The conservative would resort to gun waving, maybe shooting few innocent people along with the possible perp. Kind of like what conservative thinking did in Iraq, costing thousands of innocent, trusting, American lives."

Tell us how many dead, robbed or raped liberals ever successfully talked their way out of it. Just name one.

Nice try, but we both know that what you said makes absolutely no sense. Spare us the anti-public-aid propaganda, please.

anti public? lol... you`re funny...

Cimmironrose ~ I've noticed your comments to other articles bring the voice of reason to these discussions (if we can call it that). Thank you for that! ~ Hugs

It has nothing to do with guns, knives or swords etc. It has everything to do with people who choose to end the absolute right for someones existence based on their individual opinion on the value of that existence.

bull.@!$%#. if that gun wasn't handy it wouldn't have happened. Can you picture this happening with a knife?

If someone really wants to kill, they will find a way. I live in Detroit, a city where people have been killed with just about anything.

So, are you saying that ax murders never happen? I've also seen several knife massacres -- your logic is quite flawed.

You are wrong stickerbush. Weapons are insignificant without human interaction and the choices they make.

Cimarronrose- You say you're not against gun ownership, but your words state that you are.

Even if you place heavy restrictions on gun control, people are always going to find a way to get a hold of a gun (or a weapon) through some other means. Society should place more importance on mental health as I'm sure the psychologists would have kept these wackjobs from being able to own a gun (since you're not allowed to own a gun if you're clinically depressed, bipolar, shizophrenic, etc, etc), but yet people just don't seem to want to take preventative measures for these sorts of these.

bull.@!$%#. if that gun wasn't handy it wouldn't have happened. Can you picture this happening with a knife?

The gun had nothing to do with it. Yes, a knife could've been used, it has happened before. People have killed many with axes, fire, vehicles.

Here's a headline:

Man, 77, says he killed entire family with hammer

By Associated Press Published: Jun 24, 2008 at 7:03 AM PST

Sorry but the gun did not defeat the natives the plow did cause it gave the invaders the ability to grow more than they needed to live on which allowed them to sell the excess for profit.

Cimarronrose

There is not a nation on earth that was not built on the power of weapons, and there has never been a civilization in all of history not built on weapons and violence.

The holidays sometimes place great emotional stress on some people, and this is how they deal with it. Killing is so final, no more problems, ever. Until friends or family can sort out the emotional entanglements of these people, these tragedies will continue to happen during holiday seasons, and the guns make it easier. I can hear the NRA, "now if everybody was packin' this never would've happened", what insanity. As a gun owner since I was twelve, I'm sixty-five now, guns are really not the problem, but without guns these situation are much more difficult to accomplish.

There really isn't much of an argument; many more people would be dead from guns if they were outlawed. The right to own weapons deters a hell of a lot of crime - serendipitously, our nation has never been invaded because the fear that there are law abiding honest citizens with guns at every house.

It's similar to the recent idiotic recommendation that all communications be banned from vehicles because 3000 of the 40,000 people killed in auto accidents had recently been on the phone.

Along that logic, you can't talk to your passenger, better yet, outlaw cars - they
kill 40k people a year. A thousand people died from alcohol OD, let's ban
alcohol, many deaths from falls so let's outlaw ladders & scaffolds, and of
course we HAVE to ban electricity from all the electrocutions!

Like I said, instances like this are fleas on a horse’s ass to make an argument
against gun ownership. If someone wants a gun to use criminally, they'll get one. The only difference would be that you'd have to depend on a cop being in the right place at the right time; I'd rather depend on me because the chance of the law being there is nil.

When will this gun madness end? Every time something like this happens people blame guns. Well, if guns didn't exist it might have been an even more grusome scene if the crazy person had used a sword, or a golf club, or a bomb. I hope you know that blaming guns and trying to ban guns is a waste of time and it is trying to treat the effects and not the cause. The fact is, a crazy person decided to do something disgusting and you are trying to take everyones attention off of this problem and put it on the tools that he used to carry out his disgusting act. That should be a crime in itself!! We need to consider why he did this and how to prevent something like this in the future. Perhaps a child's response would look at the tools he chose to use and then say, "ban them".. and assume that will solve everything.

Zarkovski; That was my first post on this horrible happening, but after this became a gun issue, I also posted my thoughts on that too. Now for a whole family not being able to notice that some very important help was needed here, is beyond me, how do they let it get to that point and why they do not address it before this happens, is just nuts. Yes, I also see it happen around me and my ex wife is the biggest problem. She wanted a child but she never wanted to be a mother to her child, it was more important for her to be his friend than give him a real upbringing and thats how I ended up being the bad guy. I do hope the time I did spend with my son has enough effect on him, to do whats right. I can only hope. So yeah it does happen. Its sad but these people won't go for help and just think issues will workout on there own. Maybe they are too proud and they don't want their neighbors or friends thinking they are nuts, so they don't go for help. When the ex was taking our son to a shrink, I also went and when I told the shrink what was happening she looked right at the ex, even before I finished the entire sentence and told her you can't do that and she suggested she go to a shrink for help. It was never my son that needed the help it was the ex but she was too proud to go, she always had to be right. So now we're seperated and my son hates me because I tried being a father to him and tell him when he did something wrong, unlike the ex, so he does spend time with her and not me. Sure, it hurts me not to see him, but I would never do anything like this. Its a real shame and his loss, he's missing out on a lot of good times, but he wanted to be like her and hate people instead of trying to enjoy life and learn how to tolerate all people. I figure he's being punished enough by having to eat her cooking. I do hope one day he'll wake up and see what really did happen and who was who when it did happen. If not then its his loss. One more thing before I go. JohnnyOnTheSpot; Now I'm not positive but maybe one country didn't use guns and violence to get where they are today and thats the Swiss, I believe they may have used snowballs. But other then them, I think your right.

Cimmironrose ~ 'A tragedy like the Dallas murder/suicide only renews the debate about gun ownership.'

Nowhere in this article or others do I see any mention as to whether the shooter was even a registered gun owner. Not everyone with a gun has one legally. Responsible gun ownership has saved many people...

The guns did not make the decision to kill. They were simply a convenient tool. Make sure you are giving appropriate credit and blame to the human being who made the decision to inflict death and mayhem, no matter what tool was used in the act.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people but i do agree that we should have slightly stronger gun control laws.

BlueCollar-PA - I am trying make sense of what you said, i.e., its not gun that kills, its the people stupid! However, if you have gun instead of a knife you are 10 times more liley to use it for mass killing - ask any expert on human behavior and they'll tell you...

Someone in this forum said, that this country was established with guns and the poor white and the blacks were enslaved with power of the guns - I fully agree. America as a nation is most war mongering nation in the world and America has the biggest military budget in the worid, i.e., 1/3 of the budget is for the army. And listen to the presidential candidates, they are just sharpening their weapons to start another war as soon as they get into the Whitehouse. It wouldmn't surpise me at all if there was a army vateral in there who was suffering from PTSD. When we kill people with remote controlled drones and 9 out of 10 times kill the innocents and do know who we are killing- We will not need an extenal enemy - our society will be graduatlly destroyed this way, family killing family, since veryone has a high powered gun...

There is a living God and He is just, fair, and balanced. Every week there is a family mass killing somewhere in America. Why?????? What America does in a forerign county surely comes back to us and haunts us - we are getting the taste of our own medicine - sorry for those poor souls in TX who died in vain...

Remebmer, how many wedding parties have we bombed in Afghanistan, and Iraq and Pakistan. Do you think they did not curse Americans when they were bombed and they all died including the new brides...

bricksquad-I don't care how many laws and controls you put on guns, they will only effect the law abiding citizen, we will always have to take the bad with the good. that's just the way it is, we are on our own to protect ourselves and our families in what way we feel is best, the police cant sit in your home and protect you. we are on our own, and just to make a finale point, there have been a hell of a lot of murders committed by knives, and other weapons just ask Nicole Simpson, and all the people that have fallen victim to serial killers, they prefer that hands on method fear and torcher. I'm keeping my gun.

Cimarronrose I just want to say how much I appreciate your response. America was built just like any other super nation. And that wasn't by peaceful means. The right to bear arms. What a tough debate for most people. I just want to ask you Cimarronrose; do you think mankind will ever be rid of the need for weapons?

Hopefully you are intelletually honest enough to have meant "When will this Madness end?" since the situation has everything to do with madness and nothing to do with guns, Unless you are one of those who blames guns for all of societies acts of indescretion, which is another form of madness. When will it end?

Joe, even Switzerland.

http://history-switzerland.geschichte-schweiz.ch/

LovelessUchiha

"Nowhere in this article or others do I see any mention as to whether the shooter was even a registered gun owner. Not everyone with a gun has one legally. Responsible gun ownership has saved many people..."

No criminals have them legally, but very few states require the owner of a gun be registered. Registration never stopped a crime, not once.

I agree and on the day after Christmas, such nastiness is being said. Come on people. Why such hatefulness. Stop already. PLEASE

"... and on the day after Christmas, such nastinass is being said ... "

Actually, the initial article was posted yesterday. The really nasty comments were made on Christmas Day - didn't matter - they're just as bad as the person who decided to take everyone's life yesterday - same level of callousness.

We can either say "RIP" and look the other way, or we can speak the truth.

Handguns have one purpose: to kill people.

These senseless killings will keep happening because too many people have deadly weapons at their disposal. Too many unstable people, too many accidents, too much killing.

Before anyone accuses me of being against the Constitution, let me be clear I am not in favor of taking away the right to bear arms. What I am in favor of is that the American populace wake up and realize that the dangers of owning a handgun far outweigh any benefits , and stop buying handguns.

Take the responsibility for your own and your family's safety. Do not keep a handgun in your home.

Handguns have one purpose: to kill people.

I have many handguns. They haven't killed anyone.

Are they defective?

Firearms are inanimate objects.

If you don't like them, don't own them. But, do not impose your opinions on my lifestyle, thank you.

I also have handguns and rifles. I've shot both at the target range for practice. I have never had to use one in self defense so nobody but the gun store and state know I have them. They are purely for self defense.

The only people that will ever actually see my guns away from the practice/training range will be the criminals that try breaking into my home or attacking me. I will not pull one out without using it and pray nobody ever has to see it. There are always other weapons available. Close range would be a knife, a screwdriver or even a pen. Those could easily be pushed through any open orifice on the head and cause substantial damage. Guns are a tool, just like a pen or a screwdriver, or even a car!

Use them properly and with common sense is all that is required.

Great point Steven B! But you'll never convince a liberal that gun ownership doesn't lead to murder!

And I pray for the innocent lives lost.

I have handguns. I've never even fired one of them. None of them has ever been fired at a person. Like someone else asked, does that make them defective? After all we all "know" handguns are living, thinking, breathing things that just up and decide to force a human to use it to kill another human, don't we?

And here is a thought for all you goofy anti-gun nuts...I could easily kill a person at close range with my bare hands. The heel of the hand with a sharp upward thrust to the nose can cause cartilage to penetrate the brain, and (GASP) cause death. So can a well placed blow to the throat.

So, now that you know even a humans hands can be lethal, you best get out there and try to ban hands! Fools!

kaybeetoys

"Handguns have one purpose: to kill people."

You really believe that bs? Maybe you should go to a target range and see the truth. The vast majority of handguns and their owners have never killed anyone with them. However, I have killed several deer with 2 of mine. It is called hunting and legal in every state and most countries.

Tool has it right in their song "Vicarious":

"Eye on the TV
'cause tragedy thrills me
Whatever flavor
It happens to be like;
Killed by the husband
Drowned by the ocean
Shot by his own son
She used the poison in his tea
And kissed him goodbye
That's my kind of story
It's no fun 'til someone dies

Don't look at me like
I am a monster
Frown out your one face
But with the other
Stare like a junkie
Into the TV
Stare like a zombie
While the mother
Holds her child
Watches him die
Hands to the sky crying
Why, oh why?
'cause I need to watch things die
From a distance

Vicariously I, live while the whole world dies
You all need it too, don't lie

Why can't we just admit it?"

Well, obviously, there is a segment of our society who are attracted to crime. There are plenty of sources - books, movies, TV programs & online - to satisfy that hunger in those that desire it. However, why subject the rest of us who don't on national news channels?!

Mom Hugs-Thank you-You are so "right on" ! I have long advocated a TV program with NOTHING but Good News-and advertising only positive and healthy products . No alcohol,tobacco,self-destructive celebities, the self-indulgent royalty or rich, spoiled sports figures, or Hollywood trash,---Just ordinary people doing extraordinary things ---Then I might buy a TV !

Jay Arr ~ Thank you - nice to know someone else feels the same. I have a TV & basic cable just to watch PBS programs, which do as you ask - good programs that inform & educate as well as entertain.

I stopped watching other programs after the first season of reality TV (boring) and most if not all other programs are about crime & criminal minds, stupid celebrities (not all are), or sports. I'm just one person who has had some influence on family & friends to exercise their consumer power & TURN IT OFF! The Internet was much better 10 years ago, but has become just as bad.

"Right-Wing hate has spread arcross the land like a bio-disease ..."

Oh, the irony of it all.

Right wing hate? Are you calling the only bomb thrower on this thread, "exotix", a right winger?

The left, like exotix, is so full of hate and intolerance of others that it makes them blind. You really should get some treatment for the hate, exotix... They also have pills that can help you with that! lol

So much HATE, so little time...

exotix

Why would someone read a so-called negative news story and then complain that it's negative? Why did you read this article? You do realize you can select your own reading material, don't you?

And, what do you want to see reported? Negative acts can never be reported in your rule book. Are you serious?

Or, do you not realize that the real problem is not the reporting of negative stories? The real and true problem is the people who are making the negative stories?

The solution to negative news, mom hugs, is to turn the TV OFF and go make some positive news of your own.

love will reign supreme again when right-wingers pack themselves up, their wives and mistresses, their children and their dogs and move to Iraq & Afghanistan ...

What a bunch of effluent.

I love to watch the self-appointed, sanctimonious leftists place themselves on some moral pedestal.

Here's a clue: You are no different than anyone else.

Get over yourself.

I'm amazed at how quick a horrific event like this sparks a gun debate, when it should lead into a mental health argument. Around thirty-two million people suffer from mental illnesses on some level, depending on which definition used for the disease, and most states cut those services first. The holiday season, a time of gifts and giving, depresses a lot of people, and many of them contemplate suicide, or in some cases, a murder suicide. The debate should be on how to prevent people from spiraling out of control during the bad times; and since unemployment is probably over twelve percent, no reason to debate this because some people have simply given up looking for a job, and the government doesn't count them in the numbers, I believe a lot of people are close to losing control.

The follow up story should hopefully explain how this could have happened and why.

The easy availability of plentiful guns, along with the silly romantic view of them in Texas, only makes it easier for a loser to take others with them as they exit.

Do away with all guns, knives, baseball bats, crowbars, alcohol, drugs, ice-picks, screw-drivers, wrenches, whips, canes, swords, drunken drivers, poison, kool-aid, sugar, mountain dew, etc., and there would be no more killing? WRONG. Then you would have to start hacking off people's hands (strangulation); feet (martial arts), heads (head butting); elbows, knees, etc. Where would this prohibition end? If you eliminate the private, law-abiding citizen's right to own a firearm, then only the crooks would have guns (they will never give them up). Wake up you idiot. Guns keep people free.

I'm from Texas and think Bush and Perry are morons and extremely scary. So see? It's not every Texan.

I live in Texas and am proud that our citizens include Bush '41, Bush '43 and Rick Perry. Brooke, you are free to stay in Ft. Lauderdale, you're presence here in the Lone Star State will NOT be missed.

I was born and raised in Texas, I have lived in Arkansas, Georgia, and I am now in the Upstate of South Carolina.

I have spent time in Ohio and West Virginia where my wife was born and grew up, respectively.

I miss Texas and Arkansas and the large areas of space between neighbors!

Louisiana is not too bad, just some of the crazier Cajuns get annoying!

It seems to me that there really are regional generalizations that can be made. People in New York really are rude and always seem to be in a rush. There really is a west coast nuttiness. People in Utah really do live in a cultural stone age.

And people in Texas are gun nuts and political whackos. Ron Paul, Bush, Perry ... the whole State Board of Education.

Of course there are exceptions. Millions live there. But they don't call it "apple pie" because it's 100% apples.

I've long thought that I might make up some little 4 x 5 bumper stickers to paste over the top of "Don't Mess With Texas" bumper stickers. Mine would read, "Cause they're messed up enough already!"

(And ... if you don't like this characterization ... change. The first step on the road to recovery is to admit that you have a problem.)

Not everyone in the state likes or wants Perry, Bush, and a plethora of others to admit that they are from Texas!

I would find this a whole lot easier to believe if y'all didn't keep electing these morons by a landslide every time they run for public office down there.

I live in Texas and am proud that our citizens include Bush '41, Bush '43 and Rick Perry. Brooke, you are free to stay in Ft. Lauderdale, you're presence here in the Lone Star State will NOT be missed.

ssmithig, you're not helping the public image of the intelligence level of Texans by your use of unnecessary apostrophes with "41" and "43", and using "you're" instead of "your".

Thank you VickiC

See ssmithig? One of the reasons why I left. Stupidity at its finest

Lizzy Borden used an axe, Jack the Ripper a knife and the Nazi's killed millions with lethal gas. The "unhinged" will use what ever is at their disposal.

utter nonsense. without the gun this would have not happened. Kill 6 in a room with a knife--and then yourself? not likely at all.

If there was a SANE person in that room WITH another gun, there would have been far less dead. Nonsense? I think not. The police will not save you from a situation like this, another gun in the room might have.

And there it is, the solution, according to a Texan, to all such incidents: "Another gun".

Mike in Portland: And there it is, the solution, according to a Texan, to all such incidents: "Another gun".

Dumb comment. Last I looked the nut that walked into the hair salon in Seal Beach CA and killed eight people wasn't from Texas.

JR, considering that Mike was responding directly to a comment by ssmithig - who has already identified himself as a Texan - his comment wasn't stupid at all.

If I read correctly I think a woman in her 50's lived in that apartment with her children - boy 15 and girl 19. She had been separated from her husband. The husband lived at their house about 2 miles away. There was financial upheaval as it was tied up in foreclosure proceedings.

My obvious guess? Estranged hubby did it in a fit of rage over a life fallen to pieces. Christmas was a happy time they had spent together in years past. Ostracized and broke, he took control the only way he knew how.

I could be waaaay off base.

Plausible, and within the realm of possibility. The other positive thing here is a person with NO REASONING POWER OR COMPASSION did a horrible thing. This is just another reaction practiced by a person that is only obsessed with themselves, just like todays TEABAG REPUBLICRAPS. they teach this in every way possible. There USED to be a "moral majority" that was nothing more than a few "fat cats" using propaganda to mind wash ignorant people into doing something entirely against their own best interest. This guy was one of those people. My condolences to the family's that lost good people, and my curse on the spineless SOB that did this.

Stickerbush: "utter nonsense. without the gun this would have not happened. Kill 6 in a room with a knife--and then yourself? not likely at all."

Maybe not...but Timothy McVeigh managed to kill plenty with bullsh...er, manure!

Once every citizen has 3 guns then the NRA will want to legalize hand grenades for personal protection. We'll need them to stay ahead of the wild-eyed criminals behind every tree.

But guns sure do make it a whole lot easier now, don't they? And PS ... 47% of Congress are millionaires as compared to 1% of Americans. Now who do you think they work for? Class war? Hardly. More like an all out orgy of hoarding and greed.

No, It Simply means that guns were used in the killings. Think of violence with guns. You simpleton.

Well, suppose he hadn't had a gun. Surely the family would have had a much better chance if he'd been trying to stab them.

Guns DID do the killing you moron!

WOW, Scott, I do believe your post is one of the most ignorant I have ever read!

scott what I would like to know is why it is so easy for mentally un-stable people to buy guns... and states like Texas have pushed back against deep vetting of potential gun owners and waiting periods for new gun purchases ...I'm not saying that this would have made any difference but.... Here's what I think If you need a rifle to hunt you get (1) rifle If you need many target guns for competition shooting you must prove you do that kind of shooting..If you want a pistol for home protection you need to prove your need ...this follows the 2nd amendment and allows for the well regulated trade and purchase and ownership of guns If you cannot prove the need for many guns you should not have them.... I personally think guns are a replacement for men with little manhood

Scott--correlation is not causation, and statistics are not necessarily reality. We have no idea whether gun "sales" are up or down--the sales may well seem "up" because activity is being reported and tracked more often, which could indicate better "gun control."

Similarly, violence has been declining in the US since the 1970s--which is when abortion became legal (fewer unwanted children being born to "welfare mothers" in the ghetto means that the percentage of them who would have become violent criminals, don't). It is far more likely that the lowered rate of violent crime is linked to the lowered births among those who cannot afford them. Imagine what it would be like if poor people had access to free, high-quality birth control and ubiquitous Planned Parenthood clinics rather than easy access to guns!

Let's run a controlled experiment and find out--I'll bet that I'm right, and you're not. But, without a controlled experiment, we won't know.

I don't have an objection to people having guns, and personally, I think that schools should have classes in gun ownership the same way that they have driver's ed--and I wouldn't even mind if it became the rule that students took the class. I happen to think that there would be less violence against women and people who are gay if both typically carried guns and used them. But, that's an opinion of mine and not "fact."

The point is that six people in the house, with one deranged person with a knife, are not all likely to be dead--we can go look up cases in which a deranged family member started attacking people with a knife versus those who attacked people with a gun. The body count will be lower in the first case. Similarly, it will be lower when the deranged family member chooses to intentionally wreck the car or intentionally burn the house down. In the case of guns, murder is quick and a relatively sure thing--this is what makes them more deadly/dangerous than other things we have around the house.

It is foolish not to factor in the gun as a murder weapon--would you object if the article had said that the "bomb killed" a certain number of people and did not continuously note that the bomb had been manufactured and placed by a given individual? Bombs kill and guns kill and intentional car accidents kill--in all three cases, there is a human actor also, but the point is that the weapon does kill people. The choice of weapon matters.

There is no need to be silly on the one hand and try to divest a gun of its dangers just as there is no need to be silly and pretend that just eliminating guns will eliminate murders. Gun control is not gun banning--those who say it would be good to try and train people and also to attempt to limit the number of mentally ill with guns don't necessarily mean that banning guns is what they are talking about. Have a great day.

David Beaster: "Guns DID do the killing you moron!"

Do pens misspell words? Do cars cause accidents? Does silverware cause obesity?

I lived in the DC area for many years (born and raised). At one point DC had the highest murder rate in the country.

At the same time DC also had the STRICTIST GUN CONTROL laws in the country.

The net result was literally that the criminals NOT law abiding citizens had the guns and were killing. Laws deter the law abiding from crime but are only semi effective after the fact where criminals are concerned. They don't care about laws.

You're clearly smoking the wrong kind of stuff. This "criminals will have guns anyway" argument is absurd. And that crime goes down when everyone is packing. Do you really live in so much fear that you feel the need to carry a gun to defend yourself? Heaven help us all ...

I guess when the "water wars" start, we'll just all kill each other off. I won't bother to ask who will start shooting first ...

Gun restrictions increase crime. Gun ownership decreases crime. That`s a fact.

Grant I live in Detroit, come to my house and then take a stroll down 8 mile. See how far you get before the first person that wants everything you have shows up with a street 9 mil. I gave up and started carrying a legal hand gun and cleaning it on my patio on Saturdays. The entire neighborhood knows Im carrying and no one bothers me anymore. The thing that opened a few eyes was my review with my handicapped wife on how to load and rack a round in the new 12 gauge I bought her. We were told by local police that the best deterrent was for a criminal to hear that sound at the door. Only a fool will come through that door.

As a long time opponent of guns and gun violence, I have come around to actually agreeing with the gun advocates here. But it's with a lot of sadness and regret.

There are many, many more cilivilzed nations where the case can easily be made that keeping guns out of the population works and works well. Gun violence is almost non-existant and the clear reason is that few guns are available.

But, in America, Pandora's Box has well and truly been opened wide.

Truly, if I could wave a magic wand and make it so, every last gun in private hands would be confiscated and turned into farm equipment. But that ain't gonna happen. I fear that American (sort of like Afghanistan or Nigeria) is condemned to an existance of savage gun violence because I can't think of a way to transition to a better way of life that would actually work.

I hope you folks who just can't live without feeling the hot discharge of a long hard gun barrel are happy about it.

@Porter - Please don't perceive this as an attack but you stated that there are many examples that keeping guns out of a population works well. Can you please provide examples (other than jail :)).

@Scott Trent - Thank you for posting this but I think it is fair that you give credit to the author or a link to the original article.

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-washington-dc/gun-sales-rise-violent-crime-falls

IMO - Criminals with guns are normally cowards (a gun makes them feel more powerful). When the good people have guns the playing field is in favor of the good people.

DM ...

Pul-leeze! You know the countries as well as I do. The American Rifleman ... the voice of the NRA ... featured an article recently about Japan which contains this quote: "As the gun-banners point out, the Japanese crime rate is dramatically lower than the U.S. rate. Tokyo, the world's safest major city, suffers muggings at the rate of 40 per year per one million inhabitants. New York City's rate is 11,000." (As I expect you will, the article then goes on to try to make the case that it's a price not worth bearing.)

The fact is, America has been turned into a country where (as previous posts from gun advocates have dramatically made clear) people huddle behind locked doors with weapons at the ready. It's a value clash. In my value system, I would prefer no gun violence at the cost of no "freedom" to own a gun. Yours is clearly different.

But, as I said, my "freedom" to live in an America with safety from gun violence has been taken away by a gun nut culture that makes it impossible. Thanks a lot!

@Porter - No need for snide responses. I just asked you for sources. Likewise I asked Scott Trent (who appears to have an opposite opinion of you) to site his sources. After finding the source of your quote - the article doesn't attribute gun control in Japan as the source of lower crimes - but you are free to interpret the results as you want. I will let the community decide.

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Foreign/Japan-Gun-Control-and-People-Control.htm

I actually gave you a +1 but should have waited to until I read the article because I feel you purposely selected one statistic and conveniently left out the remaining article to mislead me.

The Japanese are better people than the American, did you see how they reacted to the earthquake sunami?? Now put the quake in LA and see what happens. Americans will eat one another, the Japanse helped one another!! It is the quality of people in a society that makes that society better or worse. America has low quality people. guns are not the answer, It is the human spirit that is missing in America. Until that Human spirit is found in abundance you will need a gun to protect yourself from the souless among us!! You raise the human condition for all and the need for weapons will go away!! If you want an example of the quality of Americans read this article and then read every post that follows it. We--- you and I make this society what it is, guns are inconsequential, Until each one of us takes personal responsibility for this Christmas day tragedy in fort worth, it will never end, and it will affect us all everytime!! Its just a fact we are our brothers keeper!!!

Vince, you have some interesting points, but the problem is there are not angels walking the earth. Never has been and never will. Read your history. this is not heaven. Should an unfortunate event take place you take your family and count on the human spirit. I will take my chances to protect my family with guns. I'm not promoting violence, but I just feel more comfortable protecting my family this way. I don't want a few idiots (in relation) to millions to take that away from me.

This guy who dressed up in a Santa suit and killed his family and himself was our brother, and we failed him. He did this because he knew that you and i would talk bad about him for the next couple of days. He knew he would make national news and we would pray for him and we would call him names. curse him and love him. he now has his 15 minutes. We have made his dreams come true!!! He is the one who called 911, he was impatient to make the news, he wanted to be sure the cops found them quickly

@Vince 13.9 - I don't want to argue with you either :)... but I found the above (and now below) article pretty interesting - comparing Japan to America and other cultures. I have read similar articles about Japan's culture in the past but now I have something to research on my vacation :). I don't think Japanese are better people than Americans. I believe it comes down to the individual regardless of ethinicity, race and/or heritage.

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Foreign/Japan-Gun-Control-and-People-Control.htm

Italy, France, Germany, Holland, Spain, Portugal, Sweden, Denmark etc.. for example have NO guns, and quite non existent gun murders compared to USA.
Even if criminals have guns to scary (very rarely), they knew that no-one have one so they never shot. Only police have guns and even they use them VERY barely.

Americans love to live locked in their house with a rifle pointed at the door and the answer to crime is to "shoot first". PITYFUL. Don't know how you can raise up children in this violent environment

Hey i got a whole cabinet full a guns. Problem is we could be all angels, whether god given or not we still have free will. Each of us makes a choice what kind of human to be. If we love one another this all goes away. We dont love one another and until we do, then i will own a gun!! you miss my point!! I still feel responsible for this persons actions, because it is news and i post!!

@Wef - minus all the religious comments- totally agree :).

DM98 individuals make up our society, this is a societal ill caused by disparities between those individuals. haves and have nots. That is what i meant the Japanese are more spiritual individuals. I dont write as literally as i think! Better vrs spiritual its all semantics.

Frank i raised 2 wonderful kids and i did not stay locked in my house to do it. But when i went out you can be sure i was armed to keep them safe!!! Not just from people, there were a few bear encounters in montana and wyoming. But i didnt have to shoot!! But i could and would have if needed. Same ethos applys at mcdonalds as it does in the mountains.

@Vince - My argument is that they only appear as "more spiritual individuals" because they are a homogeneous society (they share a common social construct). Mixed cultures always show more distrust towards each other. Quite sad if you ask me but that is the world we live in.

fRANK YOUR WRONG, in sweden military men take their military rifles home, italy the mafia kills with guns, Also a man shot 2 at a laundromat yesterday or the day before over fumes, there are a lot of stabbings and dronings and automobiles used as weapons also. Denmark also doesnt have a gun ban my fiance lived there, maybe a handgun ban but no gun ban.

DM98 the world is what we chose to make it. The fabric of man is maleable, we adjust, we cope, we evolve. we also can chose to devolve, which is what america does. Mixed cultures, mixed race, mixed up melting pot. If you take the water away from the body we are exactly the same stuff. no color, no race, no different!! We are what we chose to be. America has chosen to go down this path of destruction. So be it. I dont want to change it i probably could not if i wanted to. I merely state that i exist in it and if your existence choses to interfere with mine, you need to be a better, faster shot than me. that we all cannot see that it is us who control our destiny and could turn it around simply by chosing to do so is assinine. I am as bound to you as you are to me and it makes no difference what culture or color or race you are, i see only a human being, and until we accept that bond and act accordingly my guns are loaded.

I make you jerks a promise and a prediction. If i walk down the street one day and everyone greets me with arms wide open with love and kindness in their hearts I promise, i will run home and destroy my guns immediately!!! I will lobby for the disarmament of the entire planet!! BUT This is my prediction we a$$holes and i say we will continue down this path to anarchy and if and when that day comes and the supermarket runs out of food, and i cant find enough wildlife to eat. I will kill you and eat you!!! We can have it either way i dont care. I have a preference but i really do not care!! You chose!!! Life or food for my freezer. I will survive!!

I should have said fellow jerks, beilive me i do count myself among you!! Not out of choice but out of necessity

Vince, you sound as if you have many serious and varying issues that need to be addressed. Please reread what you wrote, "kill and eat you"? "Life or food for my freezer"?, you need to stop it.

I've found that so called "men" who stand around "talking" are all about doing nothing.

There are & never were any guarantees in life. We make our own fate & your survival is more dependent on you than it is other people's responsibility. There is no such thing as total equality because the lazy will never have the same material things as the ambitious. The lazy will want what the ambitious have without working equally hard to get it. If the ambitious are forced to give up what they have worked hard for to someone who is parasitic in nature, you will fabricate resentment. The lazy want what the ambitious have & will steal it if they get the chance. There is really no such thing as total equality because human nature enters into the equation. Color really shouldn't be a factor, but having said that, it does seem to be a factor. Most shootings are Black on Black hostility & gang activity has a lot to do with it. Somehow the Black community has lost its Family values & gang violence is rampant. That may be due to the drug abuse or turf control. This particular incident was probably one of mental problems or inability to cope with reality. Either way it is a mental problem which gun laws try to prevent, but until Dr.'s, schools, churches & friends intercede, that mental problem will not keep any weapons from unstable people. We are each others keeper if we don't seek help for an unstable person, we must take some responsibility for their actions. If someone acts irrational, call 911 & get help for that individual. If you know they have weapon's of any type, notify the local police to protect that individual as well as anyone they have contact with. That said, I will do what is necessary to protect myself as well as family members. Don't expect the Police to protect you, as that is not their job according to the Courts. Their job is to solve criminal acts, which they do exceedingly well, but are very seldom there when the crime starts. You are there, so it is your responsibility to protect yourself until they arrive, as you may not survive until they finally get there.

Beckerhead moved to Texas ... 'nuff said ...

You trash the President (as you always do as your hatred has no end) ) but make yourself the actual Bozo here by attempting to blame a structure. You gun lunatics won long ago. Nothing will ever be done to reduce the outrageous number of firearms in our society. And since you say some people are "violent by nature" let's see how that is actually assessed on a firearms application if today is the first time that "nature" has shown itself?

As for you quip about the race of the victims most highly publicized mass shootings do not occur because of race or financial circumstance.

And once again let's point out that there will be more accidental shootings this year in America than incidents where a gun was used in self defense. Guns contribute far more to crime than they hinder its commision. Virtually every firearm currently on our streets was once legally purchased.

We opened up this Pandora's Box long ago thus we live with the poison that was released. In opposition to the NRA position I suggest this is a great flaw in our society that will eventually destroy it from within. Even if you believe guns are essential to protect the citizens from tyranny what would remain after any such armed insurrection would be a wrecked anarchistic society with little relation to what we have today, either that or a police state where you would have no rights.

J Moore: Apartments would be the downfall of society??? You really don't know much about demographics, let alone history.

Voxrationis

Your response seems so contradicting. You seem to be well
thought out and educated, yet confused. Faith in people to do the right things
period is a grey line. I just don't understand the no faith in the general
population should tyranny occur. This is obviously a scary scenario regardless,
but wouldn't you want to have a gun if everything was chaotic? I see your
point, it is kind of darned if you do or darned if you don't. You just went
from one extreme to the other. I just don’t fully get the message. Opposition
was expressed, yet valid and logical pro reasons were shared as well. There is
a reason. I see you get that. I am left confused.

Voxrationis

Isn't a police state or one controlled by a one world government what you on the left really want?

You have Hillary making deals with the UN that will affect the free lives of citizens of America and that will lay the grounds for a foreign state making laws for the United States. Is that what you want?

How can you state " Guns contribute far more to crime than they hinder its commission"?

According to the CDC there has been 29,852 gun deaths since Jan 1 and 16,623 were suicide another 632 of those were listed as accidental, leaving 12,597 as murder or gang related violence. According to the Northwestern University School of Law guns have been used in self defense over 2 million times.

Vox you said- "Even if you believe guns are essential to protect the citizens from tyranny what would remain after any such armed insurrection would be a wrecked anarchistic society with little relation to what we have today, either that or a police state where you would have no rights."

Just like the nation we had after the American Revolution? I'm sorry but your comment is one of the stupidest things I've seen.

@vox -

Do you have statistics to back your claim that "there will be more accidental shootings this year in America than incidents where a gun was used in self defense"? I think you will find that not to be the case.

Also, most "great societies" have been destroyed from within & the vast majority of those did not have firearms. We are following the script written by our own shortcomings, as have those who have gone before us.

"A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands" - Seneca the Younger (4 B.C.-65 A.D.)

Ah, but that is a sword, not a firearm. Surely back in those days, after a multiple slaying, someone said, "if only he had used a rock, fewer would have died". Perhaps in the future it will be, "if only he had a gun instead of a laser...".

Technology improves and things happen faster with more precision. Man improves and...who knows what good things can happen?

Big E, I guess Vox, might just might think that this shooting was "accidental"? There again Big E, Vox might be one who thinks that if he says "just a minute, let me get my gun" that that might work.

Dialed 911 but shot himself before the call connected. Its not an SAT question.

Actually, I received a sweet little Derringer for Christmas. Yes, I do know how to use it safely. Yes, it is unloaded for now.

No, I no longer worry about safety. Personally if you are going to rob, rape, or try to kill me you too will suffer.

Yes, I have a permit.

For a family of six not to notice that things are so bad that one of them may pull a gun out and start shooting all of them is not in touch with whats really going on, but just interested in what happens in their own life and nothing else. Its a shame this happens, but then on the other hand wheres the family at before this happens? How it comes to something like this, I'm thinking the shooter had to be abused by all of them, because he thought differently about something then they did and not a one of them cared enough about what the shooter thought or had to say. It happens way too much of you ask me, but one times too many. Why a little compromise can't be reached, especially when its family, I have no clue. Too many selfish greedy people out there that have to have things their way or no way, even if its wrong. We see this happening everyday. This time it didn't work out for them. Very sad especially this time of the year. I'm not sure who was the bad guy here?

@lexiwords-1135913

Instead of being proud of a gun received for christmas ( when other people receive tech gadgets, smartphones, PC's, clothes etc ) ask yourself WHY you have to go out home armed and why someone must want to kill you.

What sh1t place to live is USA become?

Last summer I was laying on the couch, watching tv and dozing off around 2 am. When I heard noises and thinking it wasn't a cat, I get up and theres a guy trying every window and door at the back entrance of my house, well I start loading the gun. If they had looked through the window they would of seen me laying on the couch, so I figure they didn't care and they wanted to come in and they would hurt me if they did, they weren't there to negotiate. I did call the cops and they ran and got away, but the next day I went out and got a gun permit and also a nice little gun for me to carry when I'm out. I don't want to enter my home and find someone already in it, if that happens they're in for a surprise. Bottom line, don't be in my house when your not invited, real simple, if everyone thought like that theres less shootings.

Joe, what's wrong with your story? You start loanding the gun. Yet the next day you purchase a gun and get a permit? Yeah right.

Well, yes, I carry anyplace and e3veryplace it's legal to, including in my home. One difference is that mine are ALWAYS loaded.

Homy--Buzz ~ Thanks so much for the link - you're right, it is SO on point!! I'm reposting the link in hopes posters take the time to read it.

Americans and Their Guns

Everyone is so concerned about their “right” to own a gun. But with rights come responsibility. The question shouldn’t be “do I have the right to own a gun?” – the question we should ask is “am I willing to bear the responsibility of owning a gun?”

I read it and like it, but there is one exception I have. Half-baked states that the reason for the 2nd Amend. is to protect us from foreign invaders, but I say its equally important to protect ourselves from our own tyrannical state, if it comes to that.

I am a 10 year Vet with 6 years assinged to a Naval SOCOM weapons team MOMAGDET and a number (I wont tell the unit number) I currently live in Detroit and would post the pictures of police removing the two bodies of people shot in my back yard. 30 feet from my back door but they are kind of gross. The last time I saw a stat for Detroit showed that 1 of every 3 young men in Detroit either have a weapon or access to one. My wife is handicapped as below.

Both knee replacements

Both hip replacements

one shoulder and one that needs replacement.

On top of that she fell trying to get into the house after hearing gunfire she broke both of her legs at the same time. One knee was the recipient of a Staff infection so she lived for 8 months with NO knee. I keep a weapon near each door and always on my person and since she is unable to rack a load in my pistols I bought her a 12 hand grip Marine pump scatter gun. Our police officer next door neighbor told us thats the sound criminals know and fear. If you do not live in a big city where budgets have cut police then your lucky. Detroit police will not respond to anything less than a Felony Drug charge or a weapons discharge call. Everything else they tell you to go fill out a report. They almost never come to investigate ....your lucky if they call you. In talking to them they are all trying to get hired in Suburbs and their resumes must have felony arrests and convictions to get an interview.

If I were you, I would be reloading as you type.

There are so many flawed statements in that article it's hard to find a starting point.

The Second Amendment is about defense: of self, of family, of property, of country. Defense is a natural response; there should be no law "granting" it. The 2A acknowledges the existence & that it should not be interfered with.

Responsibility is a key issue. Some people shouldn't be gun owners just as some shouldn't be motor vehicle operators. Legitimate owners have to pass a background check & a CCW requires a further check. Of course, you can lie when you fill out the forms but that's not responsible, is it?

Amen

In his mind, the shooter was protecting himself from the six people he killed...lololol... It was his right!

The first thing Hitler did was to ban guns, that enabled him to exterminate anyone he wanted within his reign. His evil was met with guns (the Allies), and stopped with guns.

Guns are only tools in the hands of men, good AND evil.

Armed civilians did not overthrow Hitler. Armies did, and they were armed with a lot more than guns.

And the armed civilian resistance (especially in France) had nothing to do with it Shandril?

NVArt, Shandril eventually isn't familar with the word "Allies". Forget reminding him of the civilian resistance, he's just another unread American. He missed his history class all of them.

It all started when Cain slew Abel....nothing's changed since then, except the means.

More "love" from the left.

We aren't the ones slaughtering our families with legal firearms (you know, loving them to death, like the right)......remember?

And Who is "WE"?

...and who is "Left"?

Left is YOU! I am Right.

If you're not Right you are either Left and/or Wrong.

Yeah, but I'm still alived....and so is my family.....Merry Gunmas!

Chuckles, no "sane" person would take a gun and slaughter their family. Perhaps you seek to outlaw the wrong weapon. Perhaps you should seek to outlaw insanity.

"Perhaps you should seek to outlaw insanity."

Throw Texas out of the US???

chuckler, how do you know it was a legal gun owner and how do you know the caliber of the firearm used? please verify your positive sources. i'm interested to know who they are so i can research them myself.

you are a ignorant human being i pray that you dont ever have to protect your family and pull out a carrot just live in you pretend perfect world obama lover

Lou are you o.k.?

Wow, lot of angry gun owners out there.........(hmmmmm, I wonder if there is a correlation?........)

that gift was to die for...