Nasty Liberal''Mohammad didn't do this'' I disagree as Mohammed and his ideology breed hate and intolerance and therefore Mohammed is guilty of murder with his own hand and through his proxies.Nasty Liberal it is called history.

MUHAMMAD AND THE MURDER OF KAB BIN AL-ASHRAF

www.answering-islam.org/Silas/ashraf.htm - Isalin ang pahinang ito
Muhammad did not have legal right to murder Kab, rather he took it upon himself ..... 5) What other types of people dispatch men to commit murder in the night? ...

I also wonder if the American Muslims protesting with manufactured outrage against LOWES will rally for these victims of Islam? Not a chance. I see muslims are celebrating Christmas all around the world!

BREAKING NEWS: At least 20 killed, 50 wounded in suicide bombing in Afghanistan - Reuters

Vivian,''Praise Allah!'' for what the dead catholics?.....Please vivian save your nonsense for some idiot who believes it.

I used to work with a woman who had immigrated from Nigeria. She had told us that the problems in her country were caused by muslims. And before anyone jumps on me, this is exactly what she said and this was over 10 years ago.

Stop your trolling Vivian. People have just been brutally murdered and you want to play games here.

World's 8th largest oil exporter doesn't have enough ambulances to deal with the casualties. 10, plus injuries.

This was just a Muslim way of saying merry Christmas to Christians,( ISLAM the religion of peace ).

@ comment 1.1

While it is true that violence and atrocities have been committed in Jesus' name, in direct conflict with his teachings on the subject, Mohammed was indeed a warlord who once claimed sacking a caravan, slaughtering its men, enslaving its women and stealing its supplies as "a miracle" -- when your highest profit endorses, and enacts, this sort of violence (in contrast to Jesus, who was a pacifist that allowed himself to be crucified rather than start a rebellion) is a stark indication of the brutality inherent in the religion of Islam. While there are practitioners of Islam who are peaceful, anyone would be a fool to deny this fact, the most ardent and faithful are required to wish, and to enact, violence against non-believers (and this is straight out of the Koran). They stand alone in the world as the only current, major religion that fosters violence as a way of reaching paradise. Unlike mainstream Christianity, which deplores violence and advocates for tolerance and love (ala Jesus' message) and which is marred only by a few extreme, minority congregations which are widely denounced and criticized for their contrariness to the tenets of the faith by the majority sects, Islam's leaders (the mullah's) routinely issue fatwahs calling for violence against non-believers and preach intolerance, hate and cultural isolation within their mosques-- this is not, as it is with Christianity, a case of isolated incidents, but rather a widespread, endemic philosophy of brutality which is inherent (and some would say integral) to their faith. I would point out, however, that the American Muslim community is far less likely to believe in that sort of rhetoric, and to follow the philosophy of the "inner (spiritual) jihaad" as opposed to the "outer (literal) jihaad," and that most Muslims I have personally known within the US have been of the rarer, peaceful variety of Muslim. That is not to say that there aren't examples of violent philosophy being taught in US mosques-- Anwar Al-Awlaki, for example, was indoctrinated into violent jihaad in a mosque in Las Cruces, NM (a town I know well)-- so we are not immune to the violence that Islam surrounds itself with, but the greater American culture seems to dilute it significantly.

These are occasional actions of religion of love and peace.

Of course, if there are five percent in a street, then they start love and peace. More than 30 percent means only pieces.

I thought UN, human rights groups were counting the dead in Syria.

You see: after all "democratic" and "strategic ally" Saudi Arabia does not pay them to see in other directions like Sudan, Nigeria, Bosnia and other places!

Oil companies and lobbyists are busy with Syria and Iran. So how can they be busy with small things in Nigeria?

What a joke the followers of Islamic cult have reduced the world to!

"... And their word will eat as doth a canker of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; who concerning the truth have erred, ..."

Islam.

The only religion where the "handful of extremists" are the majority.

There are millions upon millions of "extremists" in northern Africa alone. If you count the "extremists" in the middle east, southeast Asia, and eastern Europe, you would probably come up with a billion "extremists".

I just love hearing some clueless moron telling America that its not the majority of Muslims but only a "handful of extremists".

Since the birth of the Islamic cult, have Muslims contributed anything positive to the world other than stealing, looting, kidnapping, blackmailing, killing and doing genocides?

The fountainheads of problems due to Islamic radicals and terrorists are "strategic" and "democratic" allies like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

Would any sane send US troops without their Bibles to save the seventh century bigoted Sunni beasts Saudi ruler, his princes, princesses and their battalions of women?

Instead of having functional army, these savages have assembled huge army of girls and women of the world!

Islam...the religion of peace, understanding, and good will toward man.

Their pride in the killings is what sets them apart... I hope Allah is proud of you.

Wherever goes religion, violence follows. No matter the belief. Faith pushes aside rationality. And once done, it is hard to undo. If we are to exist on this Earth, we need to understand that we are not all alike, and that our differences are not threats, but a thing called strength through diversity.

Sadly, we have much work to do in that direction.

Here is hoping the New Year, almost upon us, brings us wisdom and peace. But it is up to all of us to help it along.

What I find really repugnant are people who claim to be "practitioners" of two religions that WERE IMPORTED TO NIGERIA BY OUTSIDERS

Dah" Its like this anywhere

This really has nothing to do about religion, its just another uncivilized country..Do you really want to give the that much credit ?

Wherever goes religion, violence follows.

ONE religion in particular. Islam.

More of the same from the peaceloving "religion".....you can't cure Uncivilized animals.....wait,that statements not fair to animals.....animals are smarter,and more civilized...........U.S. Army Disabled Veteran

@WMG-21

Mohammad was a merchant most of his life and towards the end of his life commanded the Muslim Caliphate. You go on to mix truth with falsehood and come to the stupid conclusions. Its true that the Qu'ran authorizes defense and warfare with unbelievers. But the Qu'ran says Jews and Christians are believers and follow the same religion.

There are exceptions to many rules in the Qu'ran. The Qu'ran is this plan that you can live your whole life, and supposedly get to heaven. The Book is very precise and detailed on what you do in pretty much every situation you'd be in during your life. When it comes to fighting unbelievers you can only fight those that attack you. The Qu'ran says don't kill civilians and that if the unbelievers stop attacking you to leave them alone.

Bombing churches is contrary to everything the Qu'ran says. I agree its pretty outrageous to attack a church. I think with Islam we have a prevalence of sects that use the book out of context. Those sects are a significant part of the Muslim population which is good enough reason to just stop dealing with all of them.

MarineDoc, it is not just Christians who comprehend the toxic, violent threat that Islam poses to all Non-muslims. It's true that only a minority of Muslims act out like this, but the exhortations to do so are woven in to Islamic theology. Thus the minority is not "tiny" but a substantial minority of killers, sympathizers, fund-raisers, active supporters, enablers, etc. For such a widespread cancer of murder and mayhem to exist across the world today, perpetrated by fervently committed Muslims, the disease is more embedded in the religion than most people want to acknowledge.

The ultimate goal is to make Islam Supreme above ALL others and for most such Supremacists there is no line they will not cross to make this goal a reality. That is the reality we all face in the world today. It's time to wake up, meet, and defeat these modern day Islamic Nazis. They sure aren't going to stop on their own.

Human beings are violent. And despite the atheistic assertions, secular societies are just as violent, if not more so.

Will we be foolish enough to be suckered into another war? If the military industrialists have their way, we will.

"Nigeria sells 40 percent of its huge oil supply to the United States. Nigeria exports 281,291,000 barrels per year (771,000 barrels per day) to the United States, according to the EIA. But Nigeria is feeling the full brunt of the "oil curse." The vast earnings from oil have not translated into substantial improvements for ordinary Nigerians. People living in the oil-producing Niger Delta area, in particular, are very poor and the environment has been degraded by oil drilling."

Don't kill and maim any more of the younger generation. If big oil wants a war, let them fight it/

Organized religion will be the demise of mankind.

Islam will be the demise of mankind if the cancer within it continues to spread and entangle the world in a violent cataclysim.

I highly doubt that Islam will be the 'end of the world.'

"The problem with Islam isn't Islamic fundamentalism, it's the fundamentals of Islam."

Yeah yeah yeah. And Jesus went around beating up the 1%ers of his time on the streets and wrecking their shops they set up with the sweat of their brow.

Bigoted Bible-thumpers = Osama Bin Laden's best secret weapon

Adam - Islam will be the demise of mankind if the cancer within it continues to spread and entangle the world in a violent cataclysm.

Islam is a peaceful religion not to be confused with the fundamentalist practitioners harbored within that are causing the problems. They said Christianity was peaceful too. Let's not forget The Crusades which cost tens of thousands of lives.

I agree Tom. Human beings are a poor excuse for humanity. We are by nature selfish, duplicitous and violent. It's a wonder we have been able to create the society that we have and we struggle constantly to keep it. Albert Einstein once said that there are two things which by all appearances are infinite. One is the size of the universe. The other is human stupidity.

However, the fact that bothers me most in the USSA (united socialist states of america) is the politically correct drive to ignore the REALITY that some countries, religions (or lack thereof), and races are more lazy, violent, or intellectually challenged than others. Stating any truth that a politically correct and/or protected group doesn't like will earn you the monikers "racist" and "bigot". Though indeed a lot of bigots and racists will parrot unsavory truths in their various assaults upon their targets, that does NOT make the truth any less true. We must admit the truth before we can or will improve. One must know where he is in order to get where he wants to go. But not in America!

Prejudice has become a dirty word to those who proclaim themselves to be intellectually superior (which claim is highly debatable). But what is prejudice if not learning. Facts that I have learned prejudice me toward a better and safer life if I have a brain. If I get a flat tire every time I drive down a certain rode, that fact will prejudice me against that rode. I rode through a black neighborhood in Wichita, Kansas on a bicycle once and was called names, threatened, and had chicken bones thrown at me from someones porch. I would have to be an idiot to ride through the same neighborhood on a bike again.

I have no doubt that stupid (sometimes mean) people develop prejudices and stereotypes without sufficient cause or information. Additionally, all races, cultures, religions, social groups, etc create prejudices of their own based on nothing more than familiarity and tend to denigrate those not following in their particular path. For instance, calling the German people stupid because they hold their fork in their left hand would be in itself stupid. But I saw American soldiers in Germany do precisely that. However, that does not make every prejudice inherently wrong or stupid. An intelligent person will rightly question the prejudices he hears or sees. But only an idiot would state that all prejudices are wrong and stupid. Calling someone names because they hold a particular set of prejudices is just as stupid as demanding everyone one else hold YOUR set of prejudices.

Personally, I believe in freedom. You have the right to be as prejudiced, stupid, bigoted, racist, ridiculous, and just plain WRONG as you want to be ...... until you attempt to install that in MY back yard or on my person. This is where I have a problem with muslims. They can wear all of the veils and rags they want. But don't tell me a public worker can't pull the damned thing off in a reasonable line of duty ESPECIALLY in the cases of medical care and incarceration. You don't want to eat pork inmate? Then don't eat it. Bubba will be glad to take care of that for you. What's that? You want ME to abide by sharia law and bow down to YOUR form of flying spaghetti monster? Let's kill each other in the street fool. And don't be a coward with a bomb. Let's do it face to face, or are you afraid to meet muhammer (or whatever his name is).

Muslims/arabs tend to be psychotic killers more than many other cultures/races. If they can't find someone else to kill, they create some minor difference between sects and kill each other (shiites and sunnis - sorta like the protestants and catholics in Ireland. Hmmmm. Looks like they don't have a monopoly on that). Like it or not, we ought to be profiling them instead of feeling up 8 year olds and granny at the airport. And we ought to create death squads to go get the leaders of these violent sects all over. There were plenty of guys in the Army who loved to kill $hit. Point 'em in the right direction and let 'em go. But that's just MY stupid opinion.

The bottom line? Political correctness is just another set of idiotic prejudices and bigotry which that culture does it's best to shove down everyone else throat with the self serving delusion of intellectual superiority. There are way too many broken babies dying out in the yard that we threw out with the bath water.

MarineDoc

No one here has selectively forgotten the violent history of Christianity. As an ex-Muslim Atheist who used to argue on behalf of Islam, I've used these to support my arguments many times. Yet, what we must acknowledge is that Christianity is no longer as violent as it used to be primarily because most Christians no longer take the Bible literally. Islam, on the other hand, views its holy book, the Quran, as incorruptible and unerring! In fact, this is the ONLY reason why Muslims think Islam is superior to Christianity because they do in fact belief that Jesus was Allah's prophet but his message in the Bible has been corrupted.

Now when you tell the Muslim that he too must not take his holy book seriously for whatever reason, you're essentially telling them that they're no better than Christians and in so undermining their supremacy, you're essentially accusing Muhammad of doing nothing but plagiarizing Christianity.

Now when you have a group of people who must necessarily believe that all the stuff in their holy book is directly from God (as I've pointed out earlier, they have no choice), even when there are many among them who are able to moderate their personal conduct with non-Muslims (your so called "Moderate muslims"), the theological argument is not in their favor.

A religion with fervent adherents that sees itself as supreme over anything else that came before it and predicts that it will eventually supplant every other means of worship is inherently incapable of existing peacefully with other religions.

"That's my ambition and that's the ambition of every Muslim in the [world]... in this country." ~ Ahmad Sani Yerima, Governor of Zamfara State, Nigeria (1999-2007), when asked by a journalist whether he thinks Nigeria should be a Shariah nation.

See video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fbXvq_ZIbw (1:38-1:48)

Muslims/arabs tend to be psychotic killers more than many other cultures/races

Oh wow, yeah you're not a racist... <sarcasm>

True Islamists are not the problem or a problem. These criminals that rape, pillage and murder and then say God told them to do it are nothing more than the sick killers in this country that have been mass murdering for years and claiming the devil told them to do it. The differance being that these murderers, rapists and thieves chose to hide behind the sheep of the Islamic belief as they are great in number and are easily blamed. The Bin Ladin's of the world have no Morals, moral belief or respect for life in any form and live for the moment. In time the Islamics will rise up against these imposters and all hell will break loose until each and every despondent that places the blame of their crimes on Allah will be smitten from the world. Or at least until they find another cult to hide behind.

Killing people to convert them to your beliefs ?? Hmmmm ??? Well that is stupid !!!

Yeah lets go to war and kill a bunch of people to show how loving our religion is-pick one-

How about what Jesus Christ taught ?? Love God the Father more than anything or anyone else, then love your neighbor as you love yourself and you will be doing the Work of God !!

Funny, no where in there did I see anything about forcing someone to convert to what your views are. Nor did I see anything about killing ones neighbor being the way to please God.

Oh, thats right, these people aren't trying to please God they are trying to control people for their own gain !!!!

Woe to you who would murder another in the Name of God, you are not worthy to even face Him let alone speak His Holy Name. Repent for His day comes soon and His wrath will be upon those who lie about who He is and who they serve.

Funny, no where in there did I see anything about forcing someone to convert to what your views are. Nor did I see anything about killing ones neighbor being the way to please God.

Really, you must not have read the bible then.

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. — Luke 19:27

Oh the hypocrisy!!!!!

Muslims - that is the crap that needs to be dealt with decisively on a permanent basis. No mercy, no left overs, give them what they do to others. That is the only way to get rid of these swines.

mean two:

New here huh ??

That verse has been used many times out of context, of course I wouldn't expect someone to use it correctly to actually cite what was being spoken of.

Luke:19 20-27

²⁰ "Then another came, saying,
Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief.
²¹
For I feared you, because you are
an austere man. You collect what you
did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow. ²² And
he said to him, Out of your own mouth
I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not
deposit and reaping what I did not sow. ²³ Why then did you
not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with
interest?

²⁴ "And he said to those who stood
by, Take the mina from him, and give it to him who has ten minas.
²⁵
(But they said to him, Master, he has ten minas.)
²⁶
For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given; and from him who does
not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. ²⁷ But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to
reign over them, and slay them before me. "

How is it you do not understand that if you reject He that is God you will die ?? It is not Him rejecting you, it is you rejecting Him.

You make the choice.

@gramps

New here huh ??

Nope, born and raised in the good ole US of A.

What about these?

Exodus 22:20
Deuteronomy 13:6-10
2 Chronicles 15:12-13
Deuteronomy 13:13-19
Deuteronomy 13:7-12
Deuteronomy 17:2-5
Numbers 25:1-9

Eagerly awaiting your response as to how the bible doesn't advocate violence.

Wow! The "Religion of Peace" blowing people up on Christmas Day.... Imangine my surprise! I can't seem to recall of the last time i heard of a Christian, Buddist, Jewish, or B'hai suicide bomber.

Perhaps the only place the Quaran should be read is in hell.

There are all kind of violents in every country but, in countries where there aren't mudslime, you won't see or hear things like this that happens. I personally know countries where there are catholics, evangelics and jews. and all lives without killing each others. shame on islam. muslim even kill each other for the same islam.

@blzbub

08/06/2010

PHILIPPINES
Christian suspected in suicide bomb attack on Zamboanga airport
The explosion occurred yesterday, causing 2 deaths and 24 wounded. The man was a respected person from the Christian community. According to AsiaNews sources the suicide bomber was in fact a victim. Police and army investigations reveal he that brought the parcel bomb inside the airport without knowing it.

When you choose to stick your head in the sand, you blind yourself from reality.

@Justbeing(a bigot)

So I guess you didn't hear about the mass slaughter of innocent people in Oslo this year huh?

Another tragedy brought to you by Sharia Law adherents. Nothing in the Koran to tell it's followers to commit murder in the name of Allah? Uh, guess again. Those people attempting to justify these atrocities by bringing up the Crusades, or the violent passages in the Bible need to get real.

This is the twenty-first century, mankind, for the most part, has progressed beyond adherence to strictures mandated by ancient and violent texts. The attempts to condone such brutality are weak and ineffectual, puerile and pathetic.

All right thinking peoples should condemn and decry these outrages, they have no part in civilized societies. There is no justification, None! If any group, of any religion, nationality or persuasion acts as these brutes in Nigeria have acted, they should be hunted down and destroyed like the rabid dogs they are.

The dead in this instance are fortunate. I say this because the wounded are much worse off than the dead. The pain of dire wounds, the subsequent infection, the lack of good treatment facilities in some of these areas damn the wounded to misery unknown by folks reading these words. The wounded will soon wish they were dead. What a sad thing when people can do these things to others with whom they could just as easily share a cup of tea.

The human species (we, all of us) is a plague on this planet.

Attention PEOPLE: LEAVE EACH OTHER ALONE.

When are you all going to realize that none of these atrocities are specific to one religion, or people, or culture, or gender, or whatever??

This is simply a case of humans being cruel to humans. This has very little to do with actual religion. This is just an example of tribalism ("us" vs "them"). We see it before football, soccer, and baseball games in the form of hooliganism. We are witnessing it on this very thread.

Religion was an excuse.

Oh, I do beg to differ with you there. Seems that when you look at the numbers of atrocities committed, the vast majority are commited by those claiming adherence to Islam.

@MEAN TWO, you need to lear how to read, because all I can think is that you are an ignorant. first, it is against the bible for christians to just commit suicide, and worst if it is to hurt others. second, the PHILIPPINES have islamic militants = mudslime or islam.

third, what happenned in Oslo was not christian against another religion, it was politically motivated, a right-wing hiding under christians againts liberal gov.

mygirl and all,

Just read: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788

The first statement I will make is that my thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and families affected by this outrage !!

Next, it shouldn't be acceptable anywhere on earth for innocent people to be murdered for peaceful worship, whether they are Buddist, Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim or other !!!

Finally, this slaughter is simply unacceptable and those responsible need to be brought to justice and if moderate Muslims want to have more understanding from others, they need to step up and denounce this garbage, like moderate Christians denounce garbage like abortion clinic bombings and abortion doctor murders !!

Lucille: People don't know the reference you give; a Biblical condemnation of two people who thought the Resurrection is over and done with. In God there is eternity, before and after time, and including time. So, we look for the Resurrection of the Dead (in the Christian Creed). People who follow Biblical tradition also believe that Jesus is Divine, and the Trinity is One God, not separated. We do not view our Lord from far away, but from the experience of God and man together in every life. Those who rejected these beliefs early on were considered to have reduced the faith.

I pray that violence stops. In Africa, population pressures lead to violence. In the Christian tradition, there were always those (before the Protestant Reformation) who decided to be celibate and follow a monastic life. There is no such tradition that I know of in the Muslim religion, so Muslim areas have the greatest population pressures. Christian groups that do not have monastic orders (monks and nuns) such as many Protestants in the U.S. could create violence in the future when their resources run out. Africa is rich in farms and resources, but as each family has an average of about 7 children, no riches are great enough to feed them. The violence in Rwanda, Burundi, Democratic Republic of Congo, and other countries, are all due to the shortage of land and food.

I agree with the poster who wondered what is happening in Syria. There is more news out of Nigeria than from Syria. Syria also has a large Christian population, and some of the oldest Christian pilgrimage sites. I pray that the holy angels protect them.

@ meanto.. #1.40

Usually when someone hasn't the faintest idea of how to understand the Bible they trot out a bunch of Old Testament scriptures and declare Christians to be in error because we don't do what they advocate. That's like someone walking in off the street and telling the doctor how to do an apendectomy.

Jesus declared the Law...wherein are contained the books you cited from the Bible...to be fulfilled. When He died on the cross and rose from the dead, He ratified a new covenant with mankind. It is no longer the Law of Moses, but is the Laws of God written on hearts of flesh, not tablets of stone. That means you have ZERO excuse for not walking in truth because God has made it known to you.

So, rather than appear the idiot and hold Christian's noses incorrectly to the Bible, try doing a little research on it and then, asking God to help you understand. Because I'll tell you this right now...you're missing it completly.

@Levi

And I can say the same about your understanding of Islam and the Koran.

mean two...

then how do you explain the daily killings by your peaceful brothers? I suppose most muslims are simply ignorant to their peace-loving religion...don't believe it? then where's the outrage by the peace-loving ones?

Islam is a religion of hate...that's why there's no outrage. The "normal" ones believe the koran's drivel also!

Where did Levi mention Islam??? good grief...

Levi,

I take exception to your appendectomy analogy. The majority of christians have no idea what is or is not in the bible, and certainly aren't scholars. Furthermore I find it disingenuous that certain christians like to conveniently sweep Old Testament atrocities under the rug...especially when there's a discussion about Islam.

Your explanation does not fit well with an omniscient god.

"...you have ZERO excuse for not walking in truth because God Science has made it known to you".

My need to know the false is really limited when I know the truth so well. The truth is One. What, therefore, is everything else?

MarineDoc...

The truths of God are revealed to mankind by God, and we make the choice to believe them or not.

Please present your studies that show that "the majority of Christians have no idea what is or is not in the Bible." Surely you can back up that claim.

And I actually find myself fortunate to know some truths about science, as they are the fingerprint of God. If you wish to come from an agenda of "some reason other than God", that is your problem. Do not put that position upon everyone.

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the immortal God for the infatuation with created things..."

Levi, dude...you are wasting your time. I don't believe in imaginary friends.

I know MarineDoc...you're not the first, and won't be the last. And if God has indeed rejected you, what's that to me? And if indeed I must speak the truth for all "who has an ear to hear...", what's that to you?

By the way, I don't believe in imaginary friends either.

Levi,

I've been issuing a challenge on this thread, so far I haven't had any takers. It's simple:

Simultaneously prove that your god is real, while proving all of the others are not. Do it without using your bible as a source.

MarineDoc, one would be foolish to claim to be able to provide empirical proof of God's existence. That's why you're getting no takers. That particular challenge has been offered before. The best we can do is tell you what God has revealed to us, and the works He has done in our lives.

You are a doctor, I take by your screen name. MarineDoc. If I am correct, you may or may not wish to grapple with the issue of the healing of my mother. She was under the care of medical doctors for some 10 years. At the point in which she was healed, it had been diagnosed and verified by her doctors that she had four dics missing in her back. My mother lives on the other side of the state. She came to our area for a dog show, riding in the back of a friend's motorhome, laying down. She could be up and around for a few minutes at a time before the pain drove her to lay down again.

She wanted to see our home, so my sister, who lived with my mom, borrowed a car, and drove herself and my mom to our home. To get to our home, one parked at the curb, stepped up onto the sidewalk, up three steps to a 20' uphill sloping sidewalk, up three steps to the porch, over the threshold and into the house. This course took my mother about 15 minutes to complete, leaning on my sister's arm.
Once in the house, my mother wouldn't sit down, afraid she wouldn't be able to get back up. She was in obvious pain, leaning against a desk in the corner of our living room. After about 10 minutes of chatting, she said she had to leave and go lay down. The pain was too great.
A couple that were our friends, M and W, were there with us. The plan was that my wife and I, M and W were going out for dinner. When my mother announced she had to leave, I asked if we could pray for her before she left. She agreed. No atheists in a foxhole, eh? Mom is not a believer in Jesus Christ. Is not now, was not then.

The prayer was simple. "Lord, please heal my mom, in Jesus's name, we ask this, Amen." We then got ready to go. We all walked out, all six of us, and down the steps, down the sidewalk, down the street level steps, and off the curb to the cars, and I suddenly heard my mother break out crying. We all stopped and asked her what was wrong. She said, "I didn't realize it but I just walked down here with no pain at all!" She also said something about doing it at the same pace as the rest of us.

What struck me at the time was that it was like no big deal. It was like it was expected, and typical. It was like "That's nice, Mom". In the days and weeks that followed, she let everyone she knows (world famous for raising Russian Wolfhounds) that God healed her back. She chopped a cord of wood when she got back home. The doctor had no explanation, but was quite pleased that she was without pain, and verified that where four discs were missing, there were now, four discs.

Now, I understand the atheist's need for empirical proof. But the choices you have with the above testimony are these:

1) We are all delusional and some mass hysteria swept that living room. If this was true, would not my mother have returned to pain at some point, most probably sooner than later?

2) I am lying. That's really assuming a lot. Why would I lie? I have no reason to lie. I know what God has done, and I am secure in that. Why would I need to lie to get you to agree that God is? And even if you believe I am lying, there is abundant evidence and testimony of miraculous, physical healing in the name of Jesus. If half the effort to discover the truth of the miraculous was made according to the effort pursuing empirical science, I am confident the finger of God would be revealed.

3) Mom was lying. Uh, don't go there. Wars have been fought for less. We don't dis the Mom. Mom had better things to do than go around acting like she had four discs missing in her back.

It's a cheap way out to declare the six of us hysterical, or deluded, especially when such testimonies abound. The best, most honest position the atheist can take is to declare such an event unexplainable, with no opinion as to what actually transpired. But why say it didn't, unless the basis of approach comes from a need for a no-God universe?

I'm getting no takers, because you can't even make an argument FOR your god without making one for all the others.

By the way, I'm going with #4, you are merely mistaken (because I'm a nice guy, and like to be polite), however that doesn't rule out the other three choices as being possible.

The really funny thing, is that if you read your own holy book critically, it disproves your own god (or at least gives a pretty reasonable picture of someone with multiple personalities).

I've heard the faith healing B.S. before, by the way...used to be forced to attend an Evangelical church when I was a kid, when we moved away from my Grandfathers church. So, no. I'm not buying.

Then I recall your statement that "most Christians do not know what is and what is not in their Bible." You think critical reading of the Bible produces disbelief in God? If you want to find error in the Bible, God will make sure you find it. And seems to me that is what happened in your case.

Okay, so I gave you the testimony of my mother's healing, and you choose unbelief. If this is you being polite, well, I think you need to work on it somewhat. If you truly think that declaring me mistaken satisfies my request for your consideration of the testimony, it is cheap and disingenious.

I testify of my God and discount all others because He alone is God. Everything else is false. I don't care if you or anyone else agrees. Truth is truth, and does not require your belief to be true.

One thing of note. You heard the truth as a child in an Evangelical church and rejected that truth. You are still responsible for that truth, and one day God will require it from you.

Critical reading of the first couple of chapters of Genesis alone reveals that there are multiple human authors at different time points.

You believe your mother was healed, but did not provide any proof. How do I know she wasn't tossing back Oxycontin, Valium, and Flexeril? That's the problem with testimony, it requires that I take your word for it...without any proof. You'll excuse me if I don't jump up and shout Hallelujah...and dance with the "holy spirit".

Your god is a figment of your imagination...just like every other human who has believed in a deity. You just haven't come to grips with it yet.

I testify of my God and discount all others because He alone is God. Everything else is false.

Says you.

You heard the truth as a child in an Evangelical church and rejected that truth.

What I heard was a bunch of used car salesmen trying to sell eternity to desperate people...and getting rich in the process. Oldest scam in the book.

If I had to choose a set of gods, I'd choose the Norse gods. Very interesting group...any god (Odinn) who would pluck out his own eye to gain wisdom is cool in my book.

Your god ordered genocide after genocide, the murdering of the old, women, children, and infants. Kind of an @!$%# if you ask me.

Your god is a figment of your imagination...just like every other human who has believed in a deity. You just haven't come to grips with it yet.

Where are the case studies showing this to be true? You assume a lot with this one. I can give evidence of God, but you cannot give evidence of no God, therfore your assessment that God is a figment of my imagination is invalid. It is opinion.

How do I know she wasn't tossing back Oxycontin, Valium, and Flexeril?

She was. It wasn't working.

What I heard was a bunch of used car salesmen trying to sell eternity to desperate people...and getting rich in the process. Oldest scam in the book.

Sadly, I believe you. There may be some insight to perspective I may be able to offer if I knew the details more fully, but it was not in vain that Jesus said, "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea." Stilll, you have rightly judged. If there was wickedness, it was not hidden from you. Do you not know that often truth is mixed with false? If there was indeed any truth, however it was marketed by man, there was still truth. Then perhaps you might search for that truth.

Your god ordered genocide after genocide, the murdering of the old, women, children, and infants. Kind of an @!$%# if you ask me.

In this link

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5767

It's a bit roundabout, but he discusses this very subject...how could God be considered just if He commanded the Israeli army to slaughter women and children. I know you probably won't like his outcome, but there you have it. We are infused with our western mindset, and one of the great failures of western culture is that we have inserted ourselves into eastern culture while looking at eastern culture through western glasses.
Anyway, your question is a valid question. If you are a Marine doctor, then you do understand (hopefully) authority. There are those who are in authority above you, and you must do what they tell you. God is the ultimate authority, and while the link I gave you develops the topic more fully, I echo Paul the apostle in Romans 9, "Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?"

And MarineDoc, you hating God won't hurt anyone but you.

I've asked you for evidence of god...you declined.

Ah, the details come out. So your mother was tossing back medication, but you attribute here "healing to a god"? Typical.

They are ALL car salesmen, from the Crystal Cathedral, to Jimmy Swaggert, Creflo Dollar, and the rest, not just one.

Wow, that link was one of the stinkiest loads of BS, I've smelled in a long time, but if your god is "just" in ordering the Israelite (not Israeli, but I can see how you would make that mistake since the Israeli's are still killing Caananites...) army to commit genocide, then so was Hitler, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Hutu's and Tutsi's of Rwanda...that's not the kind of company you want your god to be in...is it?

I'm a formerly enlisted Marine, and a doctor. The great thing about being a Marine was that I was under no obligation to follow unlawful orders. Killing an infant, women, children, old men, unarmed non-combatants and animals are unlawful orders. Nazi's tried to hide behind "I was just following orders", at least their orders came from actual living beings, and not imaginary friends. The Israelites wrote that crap to justify their savagery. And you bought it.

Who am I to "talk back to your god". I (human beings) created your god.

I can't hate something that does not exist.

Levi,

I found this interesting. It's the 8 Stages of Genocide...

http://www.genocidewatch.org/images/8StagesBriefingpaper.pdf

Of all our inventions, the invention of god has proven to be the worst.

There is no more a god than there is Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or financially sound government. Quit believing in fairy tales children!

MarineDoc:

#1.68

They are ALL car salesmen, from the Crystal Cathedral, to Jimmy Swaggert, Creflo Dollar, and the rest, not just one.

If you are speaking of the televangelists whose love is of money. I agree with you 100% !!! But not all pastors are in religion for the money, power and control.

Please show me where Jesus Christ said to lust after wealth ?? Where He said to kill others in war so they will know He is God ?? Where He said to turn your backs upon the poor and sick and allow them to die for they are not worthy of Him ??

You will not find that. Because He did not say it. He came to teach the Jews where they were wrong about the scriptures and how they misunderstood them and used them wrongly.

Why do you think He continually warned the Pharisees and Scribes of their hypocrisy, and warned them that they were empty whitewashed tombs full of dead bones and rotting flesh ?? Because they tried to use the Word of God to justify their way instead of following His Way !!

When I was in Nam I heard a lot of self righteous "christians" talking about killing the slopes, the animals, the gooks, ... These people actually thought it right to kill God's created beings just because they believed differently and were different looking or a different color. Me I was there because I wanted to bring the people freedom, the freedom of choice. To be a part of the government and to vote for their rights to live and prosper freely.

Which also meant the freedom of religion. Not the freedom for or from religion. The freedom of religion, the freedom to believe as one will and to worship as one will or won't.

I see a lot of asking for proof of God's existence. The fact that people love God enough to die for Him, rather than kill others to prove His existence. Proves to me that God exists, he may not exist for you. But He does exist.

It says we are all Created by God, but not all are God's Children. Therefore those of us who know Him, know Him. Those who don't reject Him, because they don't know Him.

This argument could continue on until we die, we will all know then anyway.

Thank you for your service. I hope you have a good New Year.

For all the atheistic declaration that atheism is not a belief because it is non-belief, I sure read some believing going on here.

There is no more a god than there is Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or financially sound government.

How do you know? You do not know, nor can you. If you knock off the rabid atheism, and turn agnostic, you would neccesarily make a life-change, and perhaps find God. But you won't do that because you come from an agenda that God is not.

MarineDoc... again, I do not decline to offer proof of God. I know it's a common ploy of atheism to disrespect people of faith on this one fact alone, but God does not subject Himself to the intellectual whims of mankind, and I certainly can't make Him. As Isaiah said, "Oh that You would rend the heavens and come down!" Do I want Him to show up on earth? Sure, but is that from wisdom? Wicked man would gain destruction, and His people would alone be left, and how does that benefit you? Others who do not believe? But as for you and Derek and all the other atheists, perhaps there will come a time in your life when you have no other recourse. So great is His love and mercy for us, that should you call on Him, you may very well find Him.

I've told you the truth, and you do not believe me. I've done my part.

Actually, I don't think the argument will continue. Those of us who don't believe have no desire to argue. If you want to believe in a deity, have at it. Just don't try to get me to believe in your shared fantasy.

Well, Levi, I guess you are reading it wrong. Probably because you are reading it as a disbelief specifically in YOUR god. I don't believe in Odinn, Vishnu, Bondye, Allah, Jehovah, The Turtle Mother, Zeus, Osiris or any other. Get it?

How do you know? You do not know, nor can you.

OK, are you saying that you cannot know if Bondye or Odinn are real?

Levi, it's more likely that there will come a time in YOUR life that your prayers won't be enough to save your life...and you'll turn to a guy like me....an atheist with a scalpel, for help. No miracles, just science and medicine.

Levi,

How can you make the declaration that "He" is, when you also say that you cannot know". Which is it?

MarineDoc, God reveals Himself to mankind. The wicked heart of man does not seek after God. This was made very clear. It can't be by rote law, because, as we can see in Judaism, mankind leans towards violating the law. We all lie. We all steal. We all lust after women/men in our hearts, and we all hate without cause. He who somehow is able to not do these things becomes puffed up with arrogance and pride.
It is a most troubled way in which we live, Marine Doc. So what hope is there for us?

That's why God reveals Himself to us. I cannot prove it, all I can do is tell you that He spoke to me, and I believed Him. This set in motion a series of events that after two weeks time, I knelt down on a rooftop and surrendered my life to Him. I came away with the absolute conviction, the sure knowing that God is, and that Jesus Christ died to save sinners, and rose from the dead. It's not a delusion, and it's not some psychosis. If so, then it's a delusion or psychosis that has swept the world, and people suffering such can be found in every country. And if it is such a widespread psychosis or delusion, why has there been no medical careers dedicated to the investigation and treatment of such a delusion?

I perceive this demand to provide proof of God has two fronts. 1) It is a demeaning challenge because the one who demands proof knows that no proof can be given. And the person of faith declares that God will not subject Himself to the whims of men, and it seems like an easy out. 2) Perhaps God has found a way in, to insert in the thought processes of the one who demands proof, that maybe it's real, but the one demanding will not be taken for a ride, so to speak.

MarineDoc, I once was sitting in the center house of the Seattle Center, talking to a 16 year old boy about Jesus. He was intensley interested, and when I came to the part about Jesus dying on the cross, someone 10 feet away kicked over a cup of water, or some liquid, and it flowed into a floor socket. All of a sudden, flames shot 5 feet high, just 10 feet away. We both looked at it, but his interest held him fast.

MarineDoc, the devil's purpose is to destroy you. If indeed there is one way that is Truth, and the devil cannot walk in the truth..he is a liar..how many deceptions and temptations does he have at his disposal? Answer: All of them.

I cannot defend your early experience with church, but I can tell you that church is supposed to flow out of relationship with Him, and not be the source of it. If that's the case, then this relationship is through the Spirit, and not the letter of law, or rules, empty philosophies. There have been many atrocities and wrong deeds done in the name of religion, and even that had the name of Jesus attached to them. One again, the truth is one, and every other way is false. But will you allow the evil one, the devil, to succeed in his efforts at your destruction?

I think you will not give validity to my comments, however, it is not with joy or some indignation that I say so. I find this a common theme: I plead with others to reconsider, to understand that there is one who would turn all from the truth, and if indeed he has done so with you, then he is dangerously close to winning. he will lose in the end, however those who have rejected the truth will share his final end. But it doesn't have to be so. You can choose.

You realize you are trying to prove the Bible correct by using the Bible as your only source. Kind of silly don't you think?

You know it's sad that you are going to live this one life mainly concerned about what goes on in the next life...if there is one, rather than enjoying all that is in this life.

The concept of a "devil" is in your mind. He's a bogeyman to blame all of your shortcomings. It's found in many cultures. I think the concept of the devil was created before the mirrors were invented. Look in the mirror, that god and that devil you think is pulling your strings will be staring right back at you, and will strangely look exactly like you.

MarineDoc, the "concept of the devil" which mankind usually rejects is the caricature, the impish cartoon of the medieval ages. Fact is, he is a spirit, a fallen angel.

Now let's look at this "trying to prove the Bible by the Bible". I have read lengthy lists of supposed contradictions, and have looked at every one. I'm talking a three page, 10 font type list. Every one. EVERY ONE was easily explainable by Hebrew writing style, Hebrew culture, and context.

Fact is, the Bible very well defends itself through fulfilled prophecy. If you deny the historical dating of the books of the Bible, then you reveal that is from agenda, and not truth. No serious historical scholar disputes the historical dating of the books of the Bible. Arecheology and the writings of Flavius Josephus verify accounts in the Bible. Ezekiel, the book of Leviticus, and the historical year of 360 days combine to form a prophecy that declared the exact day of the rebirth of the nation of Israel.

There is so much online. If you come from a position of placing agenda second to truth, you will not search it out. Indeed you cannot, for you would discover the truth, and then what of your agenda?

It truly reveals a faulty character to hold agenda above truth. Why choose the false? What possible reason could you have? The proof is there to see if you would seek it, but you will not. That is the "content of the character" that Dr. Martin Luther King spoke of. Do you want to be remembered as a man who chose agenda above truth?

MarineDoc, Levi777

I followed your back-and-forth with some interest. Levi, you sucked me in with your first post, where you stated that the whole point of Jesus Christ's life and death was the bringing of a new Covenant. I was raised Roman Catholic, and was taught that the New Testament was intended to entirely supplant the Old, as the old representated God's (Yahweh's) covenant with the Jews.

MarineDoc, I'm a believer in science, as I recovered from being raised Catholic. Levi is cheating when he asks you to prove god does not exist, since logic states that there is no way to prove something does not exist. It's a circular argument.

I don't have any problem with anyone worshipping anything. Whatever you need to help get over the fear of what happens after death, knock yourself out. The second you use force in the name of your belief, however, you and I are deadly enemies, for I see that you can use your faith to justify any atrocity under the sun, and be still in your conscience.

Worship as you will. And keep it to yourself. I think religion should be like masturbation - everybody does it, but there's something wrong with those that do it publicly.

How long are you going to stay at this? Please do me a favor, and stop using the word "fact" in any sentence where you are going to discuss bible fantasy. Thanks, it's really irritating. And while we are discussing the word fact, maybe you can Google it for your own edification.

Look, you cannot prove source material by using the source material you are attempting to prove. That's called circular reasoning...or begging the question. You know...a fallacy. So stop being ridiculous.

EVERY ONE was easily explainable by Hebrew writing style, Hebrew culture, and context

That is absolute certifiable Grade A BULL@!$%#. I really DOUBT you have any inkling regarding writing styles of ancient nomadic people who hadn't actually written much of it down until later...remember there was an oral and written history. But that's not even what I'm talking about. You just can't use the bible to prove the bible. Stop. You and I both know that it requires faith...which is blindly following what someone has told you.

I prefer to see. There's no "agenda" (really...straw man argument?). I don't wake up every morning and think about looking for religious people to taunt. However, I will argue against your inane arguments especially if you make an attempt to misuse science. Again, I ask you to make an argument FOR your deity that doesn't also argue for the existence of all the others.

Really, you are reaching with the MLK Jr. quote. That is NOT what MLK meant by content of character. Very weak argument.

Since you can't hold up your end of the discussion, what do you say we just end this here. You are getting kind of boring.

Agnomad74,

I know Levi didn't have any real argument. I grew up in a Pentecostal church (my grandfathers), and was then forced as a teen to go to an Evangelical church when we moved across the country. Over the years I must have read the bible 5 or 6 times, cover to cover. I knew something was funky when I nobody woud answer any of the questions I raised when I was a kid, but rather I was told to "go pray about it". Church people don't like it when you bring up things like genocide, rape, father daughter incest, and contradictions. I caught the plants before the sun thing (Genesis chapter 1) when I was 12...unfortunately most church people had no idea what photosynthesis was. I thought it was a great discovery, but of course I was just punished for being a little troublemaker--even then :) At 17 I stood up in my Friday night youth group (which REALLY SUCKED for a teenaged guy on a Friday night...) and asked why King David supposedly one of the great heroes of the bible sent one of his enlisted men to the worst battlefields so he could bang the guys wife. Let's just say...it was a good thing that I was going off to college soon. My sister and dad thought it was hilarious! Mom...not so much. Don't worry, I'm 43 I've been at this a long time, Levi's not even putting up a good fight.

MarineDoc...I'm not proving the Bible by the Bible, but rather the Bible by historical events, and even modern history, namely the rebirth of the nation of Israel. Are you so blind that you cannot admit that Israel has been rebirthed into a nation? That is a FACT. And it's also a FACT that the prophet Ezekiel, the prophet Jeremiah, Isaiah, Haggai, Amos and others all prophesied hundreds of years before Jesus walked on this earth that the sons of Jacob would return to Israel, and Israel would become a nation again, and it would be done in the manner in which it occurred. These are FACTS. If you choose to be so blind as to not understand them, then we are at an impasse and you can never say that you never heard the truth.

MD, you don't know me. You don't know my education, you don't know my studies. You don't know my history. You don't know squat. And if you're in private practice, I sure hope you're not working out your atheistic dysfunction on your patients.

As for not putting up a good fight, you've done nothing but the typical atheistic rant against sound reasoning. And why is that? Because you cannot argue against the truth. You have nothing to say of any value, so you blather on with denials and "no it ain't".

Agnomad74, fact is, the Catholic church is the beast of Revelation 13 and happy are you to have escaped that corrupt and vile institution. But in that your belief in the Catholic church superceded any knowledge or belief in God, your faith was invalid anyway.

Why is it you think Christians cannot accept scientific fact? Oh I know why. Science is so self-seeking and limited that it cannot share the provable with the unprovable.

I gave examples, and I gave evidence, and neither one of you believe them. Adios, folks. No noble-mindedness here.

namely the rebirth of the nation of Israel.

I don't know whether to laugh, call an ambulance for you, or wag my finger at who ever allowed you to pass World History. I'm just going to roll my eyes, and shake my head at that one. A group of Europeans migrating to Palestine hardly is fulfilled prophecy. If THAT's your proof of the bible, then what would you have used in 1935?

You are right, I don't know you...so why would I take YOUR WORD for anything? The great thing about science is being able to independently verify the information, you don't have to take my word for it.

I politely asked you to stop misusing the word "fact", but I see you can't help yourself. You are becoming flustered, why don't you take a break maybe listen to whatever is hip these days in the christian music scene or watch a little 700 Club and get your bearings.

Many christians cannot accept science because it would make them question their beliefs starting a crisis of faith.

You gave no examples, and you DAMN sure didn't give any evidence. Don't forget to pray for us sinners on Wednesday evening...

MarineDoc, this is a courtesy post. I told you we're done. I'm no longer reading your atheistic rants, and you are on ignore. I see the truth is hidden from you. This is a sorrow to be sure, even though it's based on choice. Fare well. If God so chooses, He will reduce you to nothing so you have no choice but to cry out for His mercy, that at last He may give it.

Actually, the only one ranting was you (but I'll chock that up as another word you should Google). But it's strange that you came back just to say that, when WAAAY back on post #323.80 I asked you to give it a rest. You refused and came back for more.

I just obliged you. Your god has will reduce nobody to anything. Your figments don't affect anyone but you. All the genocide, rape, murder, father-daughter incest, killing husbands to make adultery more convenient are all tucked away in your bible. You know the verses. :)

Levi, you just proved one thing.

"Agnomad74, the Catholic church is in fact the Beast of Revelation 13 . . . etc, etc, etc . . . your faith was invalid anyway."

Intolerance and ignorance are the hallmarks of the "faithful". You have no right to judge how "valid" my belief was, is, or will be. How can you assign a judgement of "valid" or "invalid" to something as nebulous and deeply personal as "faith"?

You, sir, are an asshat, pole-riding, fvcktard, and in an earlier time, I would call you out and prove your perfidy on the field of honor.

But, since it's the digital age, I'll just block you. Go marinate in your poison.

Levi: As the saying goes: "Never teach a pig to sing. You will waste your time and annoy the pig." Or as Jesus said it, "Do not cast your pearls before swine." Do not take something you hold very dear and try to present and justify it to one who is unwilling to even respect that it is precious to you. That becomes exponentially more important for atheist physicians on Newsvine. Just think about it. Marine, atheist, physician. I cannot think of a more reliably cock-sure, "all-sufficient," narcissistic, self-aggrandizing, deiphobic, patronizing combo of groups one could hail from. And no, deiphobic isn't a word, but the physician will know what the coupling is meant to convey. I, like you, hope this site is his cathartic outlet and pray he's professional enough not to abuse his patients with his obvious personal bias.

Point is, you discussed. He was repeatedly insulting, belittling and self-righteously judgmental that you didn't share his religion (firmly held belief about the spiritual nature of the universe). He posted two or three more unprovoked comments right after he asked you to end it and then later ridiculed YOU for not dropping it (see the grandiose hypocricy there?). Meanwhile nobody felt compelled to call fire from heaven, make death threats or plant bombs, which is actually the point, here. Christians can tolerate (you perhaps even to a flaw) a lot. The world counts on it. Many Muslims can't.

Rorn, is that it? You seem to be misusing quite a few words there (and some that aren't even words...).

Oh, well, at least you got to jump into the fray, and I guess that's all you really wanted anyway.

I acknowledge your existence. Happy?

MarineDoc,

If I ever need surgery, I hope it's someone like you running the scalpel, and not someone who'll "pray" for me.

Be well, and I hope you have a great 2012.

Amen brother!

We do know what we do? This Islamic group knew the repercussions and knew very well what was happening; they just disregarded everything that was moral. I'm not a very religious person but damn it I would hope that a family could feel safe in a church on Christmas day... Now that sense of security is gone; nothing is off limits, and that is a scary feeling.

Happy holidays everyone; let's hope we can go the rest of the day without another bombing or "cleansing" as they say.

Living in a mad world...

@ Dave: I'm pretty sure they DO know what they do, as they spent a great deal of time and money and manpower to outfit cars into bombs and strike two different targets on the same day which happens to be a Christian holiday...striking Christian worshippers. I'm disgusted with the people who not only commit these atrocities but those in their families and mosques who hear and know exactly what they are planning and either support it outright, or permit it by their silence. Cowards and human garbage is all they are. We euthanize healthy dogs for less.

Oh yeah and Vivian? Get bent. Your comment isn't even deserving of a civilized response.

I know what I do, and that's not fall for a religion that calls for ignorance. "We know not what we do", my butt.

You know, it's silly fairy tales like Jesus that have led to this sad state of affairs. Perhaps growing up is a more prudent course of action than begging your imaginary friend.

My irony meter just exploded Dave. So convenient that you forget the Crusades n Inquisitions

Do you mean the Ottomans that were conveniently omitted???

I wonder if it surprises the atheist to learn that Christians do not believe in an imaginary friend, and the fact that the atheist keeps going on about it makes me think they do believe in the imaginary friend. However, for Christians, no 6 foot rabbit here.

Oh, and Srikar, I'll give weight to your alleged victimization from the Crusades and Inquisitions if you denounce radical Islam and be a voice for peace.

If you turn and say you were not victimized by the Crusades and/or Inquisition, then I call on you to stop throwing that at modern day Christians, as you would be hard pressed to find any Christians willing to support such actions today. Indeed, the whole Protestant reformation was subjected to the same abuses, and came about due to the abuses of the established religion, Catholicism.

If they didn't believe in imaginary friends, they'd be atheists.

It is a place of judgment: "... the worm dieth not..."

It is a place of torment: "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torment, and seeth Abraham afar off, ..."

It is a place of degree: "And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shall be thrust down to hell..."

...

Um Jeffrey, what book exactly are you reading to get that information? And seriously, you guys may want to read more accurate versions of the Scriptures before threatening people with something that doesn't exist. Kudos for trying though.

You sound like some crazed, drooling idiot shouting on a street corner about some ridiculous mythology you've hallucinated.

Wait... you ARE some crazed, drooling idiot shouting on a street corner about some ridiculous mythology you've hallucinated.

Sticks and stones, Khan. Comment 4.5 reported as inflammatory. A clear violation of the Code of Honor.

Wow!!! Where did you pick up that twisted lie Shandril or did you manage to make that one up all by yourself???

I hope you blind Islamophobes know that Chritianity has had its share of radical firnges and wars- The Crusades, the "God Given' Manifest Destiny bringing genocide of Natives, Phalangists in Lebanon today, Catholic Fascists in Spain. You're all blind to think tha ta religion that has, for 1400 years of its existence has represented peace as opposed to warmongering hypocrisy and racism. Neither faith is to blame, but the 3% of Muslims that identify with these murderers manipulated religion for personal gain, not for the Faith itself or for God. These epople are not Muslims- they are sick.

Obviously, they have never needed the services of a Muslim oncology nurse or ER physician. They would see that moderate Muslims are everywhere, speaking out against fringe element by living compassionate lives. What would they have these people do take out personal billboards separating themselves from terrorists? I was raised Baptist and do not have to do that when some whacko Baptist bombs an abortion clinic or murders an abortion provider or when Protestant and Catholics fight in Ireland. These people lack reasoning skills.

Shandrilll, Yes it does, but many fundamentalist Christians prefer to ignore that part of Christianity. All religions have fringe elements and peaceful Muslims, especially American Muslims DO NOT HAVE to apologize for anyone but their own acts. As Americans they have unique rights to practice their religion, peacefully and unless they break this rule are the same as anyone else.

Thank goodness Christians practice what they preach. You know, like the Crusades, or the Inquisition, or burning and hanging "witches", or enslaving an entire race, or killing medical providers, or shunning gays because of the way they were born.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Shandril, no, the bible does not teach that Christ is coming back to kill anyone. If you are referring to Revelations, Christ come to bring peace after a long period of killing. He does judge us, Christian and non-Christian. But then, Revelations is not a warning of what WILL happen, but instead it is a prophecy as in the Old Testament. It is a warning of what will happen if we fall into the trap of materialism and hate. In fact, it is entirely OUR choice whether Revelations will come to pass or not.

But doesn't the Bible teach that Jesus is coming back to kill everyone who doesn't believe in him?

No that would be the Islamic concept of Jesus, not the Christian concept.

Narrated Abu Hurayrah:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace_be_upon_him). He will descent (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. Allah will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over him.

http://www.quranexplorer.com/Hadith/English/Hadith/dawud/037.4310.html

You guys never heard of the Second Coming if the Messiah? The Apocalypse? You might want to check that out before denying the violence that Christianity preaches.

Any religion that advocates the killing of others (in the name of that religion) is nothing more than a murderous cult created by humans.

Easily-led fools and power-hungry monsters always seem to find one another. It's an vile dichotomy of how that mechanism works. Then they chalk it up to a religion, and therefore, call it valid. Wow. How sick is that?

What a shame such a senseless act was committed in Nigeria. Many condolences to the innocents who were killed and harmed.

Every religion/ideology has to change with times. More extremism means quicker death. Communism is the latest example.

Instead of changing with times, Muslims are marching fast backwards to seventh century tribal days. They are adding more punches with growing levels of intolerance and extremism.

Muslims are killing non-Muslims where non-Muslims are there. Is there any exception here?

Muslims are killing Muslims on the basis of sects and tribal lines when there are not many non-Muslims around.

Pakistan, Turkey, Syria, Bahrain, Yemen, Tunisia and so on. Some are on the boil and some are about to boil!

If one points out the realities, instead of accepting them, they have titles like "Islamophobe"!!!

`William J Brock

Yes most of us have heard about the the second coming and the apocalypse ,but this will be God doing it if you believe in such a thing. Nowhere does it say that we should resort to violence as an offer of assistance.

To those of you who keep bringing up the distance past and what Christians were and what they did as some sort of morbid justification for the atrocities of modern day Islam, please keep in mind these people in Nigeria died yesterday and more will die tomorrow in the name of Islam.

What else would you expect. You can't draw water from an empty well.

Neither faith is to blame, but the 3% of Muslims that identify with these murderers manipulated religion for personal gain, not for the Faith itself or for God. These epople are not Muslims- they are sick.

3% of all Muslims in the world today is still approximately 30,000,000 Muslims. A minority yes but not a "tiny" minority in practice.

And if you factor in the vast support?

... then the numbers expand even more.

Jeff Orlando Writes - "They would see that moderate Muslims are everywhere, speaking out against fringe element by living compassionate lives."

Where?

RealityCheck: I think you may be a bit confused in your history: The crusades were an attempt to eradicate MUSLIM HORDES from trying to overtake and force into their religion, everyone in Europe...which was the entire known world to them. Kinda like little Hitlers, right? Same concept, correct? Ever wonder why there are dark-eyed dark-complected Spaniards, Italians, Germans? Moorish architecture in Spain and Portugal? They made it that far...Were the Catholics right to do what they tried to do? Not saying here, because I don't know. I do know what they were trying back then (the Muslims) they are trying now, which is to overtake and force the world to succumb to their way of belief...by force if necessary. Case in point: I was in a PTA with a Muslim woman who was always very pleasant and kind, and then out of nowhere (during a discussion of the kids' spring break barbecue) told us she'd rather see us dead than see us eat "swine". Another mom said she'd rather kill the Muslim woman rather than see her wear that stupid rag on her head. Did the Muslim woman start it? Yes, undoubtedly...inflammatory and uninitiated. Did the Christian woman win by her retort? In no way. But you can't really blame her for saying it....the rest of us were just appalled by the whole conversation...including the other Muslim woman sitting there. That is what I see in the world today...the other Muslim woman didn't speak up to say "Patty, you're an idiot, sit down" to her Muslim sister, but neither did we say "Lorraine, shut the f* up and quit yelling before we kill both of you". What could we do? They both had their deeply ingrained ideologies and not a whole lot the innocent bystanders of both religions could do.

I'm a moderate Muslim- I don't need to apologize for my blind brothers' actions. I'm OK with gays and women's rights. I don't want religion in gov;'t. Islam isn't "marching back into the 7th century." The number of moderate Muslims and Muslims that are converts from another religion and became moderates has grown from 1979 to 2009 by 1834%. There is no evidence to suggest that all Muslims are crazy Al-Qaeda advocates. Muslims are just another religion that has found itself in a bind between personal manipulation and evangelism, just like Christians. Evangelicals and Radicals vs. the mainstream peaceful ones. Muslims- Al-Qaeda and radicals vs. the mainstream moderates- it's all the same, hypocrisy is useless.

@Dalek

I second your sentiment.

NJmick: You haven't spent much time in the rural midwest, have you? It is populated with rabid fundamentalists whose minds are controlled solely by their rabid fundamentalist pastors. They view anything not in their specific church as a threat to their church. They also feel they are allowed to do whatever they wish to render that threat harmless, in their own eyes. Even the church next door is a threat. The Pentecostals hate the Methodists, who hate the Baptists, etc., etc.

You know not that of which you speak.

thanks, mean two and William B., and still, the bombings here are an example of mad perversion, not religious zealousy. Would you consider mad evangelicals an accurate representation of Christianity- vice versa with Al Qaeda-esque people and Islam.

Dalek SG

Where does the money that you tithe go?

bombs, killings and junks!

Merry Christmas, Alvie.

Amen.

I know its bad.But wether we live or die we are the Lords.The seeds of evil doers will wax worse and worse.The sons of darkness only know perdition and destruction,they cannot know the things of light and love .

Michelle - You are so Right! And the world wonders what is wrong.

Fools! Your belief in magical(religious) thinking is the root of the problem everywhere. Educate yourself... you believe in a fairy tale. Remember that with religious (magical) thinking, things are true unless proven false. In the REAL world, things are false unless proven true. Your prayers are the result of a brainwashed unthinking mind. No higher power hears you. Santioned Psychotic Thinking at its finest.

Michelle,

it is just Human nature. We are programmed to be self-destructive. We were made that way by the religious blood feuds of old and because of our own greed. There is no way for us to change in our current society where people choose to hate anything and everything more freely then to forgive for transgressions.

Maybe by the 2100's, more likely 2200's, we will have learned that killing each other of fiction is stupid and that wars are meaningless.

...in the name of Christ Jesus Amen

sorry michelle but the lord will doeth not

Islamophobia and hostility doesn't get us anywhere either.

Dalek SG --- Where does Christaphobia get us?

Im trying to say that this war is not the fruit of Islam. both of these religions have instigated and started wars and murdered. Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Phalangists in Lebanon, neither faith is to blame- but intolerance of either will make it everyone's fault because nobody is willing to take the blame.

Only proves that you know precious little about Christianity.

Only proves that you know precious little about Christianity.

He,or She, knows even less about geography

All of the Western religions

Judaism,Christianity, and Islam, originate from the middle East.

Satan will never be king. He is a defeated foe. Toothless, as a roaring lion walketh about seeking whom he may devour.

His end is foretold. Hell. Lake of fire.

Faith=irrationality. Irrationality=intolerance. Logic and rationale make us understand each other. Yet we act like children.

The problem is not ALL religions; The problem is Islam. I am not religious myself but it could not be more obvious.

@ William J. Brock; started out pretty good, then insulted children...who in my experience, are pretty cool, til the "adults" begin indoctrinating them into their hateful ways. :=)

yeah, all five of them...but all powerful, eh? lol

Shandril, so what do you want, "unorganized religion" where people come up with any thought in their heads and use it on you and me? You make no sense. Real Christianity calls all to peace with God and other people. You might get that if you would read the Bible instead of slandering it and the people who live by it out of ignorance.

If Shandril is Wiccan, she knows that any action is returned to it's maker amplified. The "Law of Three". Wiccans don't prosthelytize. That alone was enough to interest me. There was nothing in that belief system for me, though.

Do you speak for all Christians when one christian in the entire world misbehaves? And just how would you personally do that? Rent a billboard, take out a TV commercial. My Muslim friends do it this way: They live normal lives, show up for their shifts as oncology nurses and care for the sick.......

Read the Bible more as well.... Plenty of violence to go around for all faiths. Also a little history lesson in the Catholic conversion process for Central and South America about 400 years ago. Oh yeah and the Crusades, Oh yeah and the bombing of abortion clinics. Oh yeah and sectarian violence in Ireland........ Be careful when you demonize people with a large stroke.... Someone may demonize you and the group you belong to someday.

muslims do not control media in the US to stand on a podium and publicly air their rejection of such acts, nor do they have cameras on them when they do condemn such acts of violence. do you really buy everything the media sells you? it's always one-sided. this goes for all stories you read through any medium, print, net, book, magazines, etc. take all info and news with a grain of salt. if you are still naive as a grown adult, you are foolish.

They have no problem airing their anger when a company pulls advertising money from a show though do they?

Give it a rest to many examples of silence in the atrocities that continue from those of the same religion.

Well, let's read from the peace loving religion.

KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)

-------

KORAN promises of houris in heaven:

Single-minded slaves of Allah... will be honored in the Gardens of delight, on couches facing one another; A cup from a gushing spring is brought round for them, white, delicious to the drinkers, wherein there is no headache nor are they made mad thereby. And with them are those of modest gaze, with lovely eyes, pure as they were hidden eggs. - Surah 37:40-49

Lo, for those who ward off evil is a happy journey's end, Gardens of Eden, whereof the gates are opened for the, wherein, reclining, they call for plenteous fruit and cool drink therein. And with them are those of modest gaze, companions. This it is that ye are promised for the Day of Reckoning. - 38:50-54

Lo! Those who kept their duty will be in a place secure, amid gardens and water-springs, attired in silk and silk embroidery, facing one another.... And we shall wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes. They call therein for every fruit in safety. They taste not death therein, save the first death. And He hath saved them from the doom of hell, a bounty from thy Lord. That is the supreme triumph. - 44:51-57

Lo! Those who kept their duty dwell in gardens and delight... reclining on ranged couches. And we wed them unto fair ones with wide, lovely eyes... and we provide them with fruit and meat such as they desire.... - 52:17-22

...Reclining upon couches lined with silk brocade, the fruit of both the gardens near to hand.... Therein are those of modest gaze, whom neither man nor jinni will have touched before them.... - 55:54-56

Those are they who will be brought nigh, in gardens of delight... reclining therein face to face. There wait on them immortal youths... and fair ones with wide, lovely eyes, like unto hidden pearls, reward for what they used to do.... Lo! We have created them a creation, and made them virgins, lovers, friends. - 56:11-37
(Different translation) Companions with beautiful, big and lustrous eyes... virgin-pure and undefiled.

--------

Koran "sharia" punishments:

You think you are one of the wise magi who came to pay homage to the Lord, methinks you are the camel they rode on.

Merry Christmas

pav, I'm waiting for the part in the koran about the 70 virgins

geol...

A suicide bomber blows himself up, and takes out a couple of people. He's dead, and finds himself in a white room. In walks Muhammed, who says, "Thank you for your devotion, son, if you just go through that door, your reward will be waiting for you!". The man heads to the door, opens it and walks through, shutting the door behind him. He sees a silken couch, and seated on it is a man dressed in colonial clothing. The man rises to his feet and announces, "I'm James Madison!" Madison punches the man right in the nose, and the man falls to the ground. Madison begans kicking him and stomping on him....just beating the snot out of him...all the while exclaiming, "HOW DARE YOU TRY TO DESTROY THE REPUBLIC OF WHICH I WAS PRESIDENT!" After a few minutes of being assaulted, Madison exits the room, and the man crawls to the door, and opens it. He staggers to his feet, and lurches up to Muhammed and asks why this man beat him up. Muhammad shrugs, and gestures to another door. The man goes to the door, opens it and walks in. There, seated on a silken couch, is a man recognized from the American dollar bill, George Washington. "Hello, my name is..." and without a word, George jumps up and kicks the man right in the shins, then haymaker's him right on the chin. Down he goes in a heap, and George begins kicking and stomping on him, all the while yelling "I FOUGHT AND BLED, AND MANY MEN DIED FOR MY COUNTRY THAT YOU TRIED TO DESTROY! HOW DARE YOU!" Finally, he leaves.

Well, the suicide bomber struggles to his feet and staggers to the door. He's barely able to get it open with broken fingers and eyes swollen almost shut, but opens it he does and falls to the floor in front of Muhammad.

"MUHAMMAD!" He cries. "Where is my reward? Why am I being beaten? Where are the promised pleasures?"

"Uh oh", says Muhammad. "Once again, they didn't pronounce the word correctly. They said there would be 70 virgins, right?" "Yes.." withered the man. "Actually, it's 70 Virginians...."

What it sounds a lot like is CHRISTIANITY.

This act is just another example of thugs killing innocent people for their own financial and political gains

I immediately thought of Haliburton and the military industrial complex and the group of thugs associated with them when I read this.

Of course! Haliburton and the MIC were created by and take directions from the Vatican. The failure of the CIA to cover this up will be their undoing.

Halliburton? Really! Slandering Christianity on Christmas Day? Really? The CIA and the Vatican? WOW!!!! It must be tough to be trapped in such a pathetic state of mind! Merry Christmas to you all!

Sounds like a group of terrorists that persecute. "For I heard the defaming of many, fear on every side..."

Joe, if you didn't catch the sarcasm, do you remember the Vatican supporting the invasion of Iraq or Afghanistan? If you do, please bring it to our attention.

That's right, Jesus Christ was a revolutionary. He brings new life. New words. New purpose. New goal.

Our purpose is to glorify the one, true, living God.

No longer belong to Satan and therefore do not have to kill which is where those ideas come from.

Hoobs Notes: you seriously need to take a comprehensive bible study course, because you are so beyond off-course with your statement I don't know where to start.

True. We should swap religion for universal empathy. If we must have a god, then embrace the god Benevolence, and be true to her. It's the only way to peace.

As long as the world continues to cloister themselves into terrified, self-righteous groups of insecure people, the world will continue to be a place of madness and hatred.

Religions roll in war is undeniable but where does all your anger come from? Were you an alter boy? Is that why you are so "tired". RELAX! Merry Christmas "white guy". WOW!

Tiredasswhiteguy & Hobbes' Notes:

I could argue that organized religions do more good than harm. For example, organized religions can organize massive charitable assistance programs for those in need, far beyond the efforts of an individual person (Catholic Charities, for example, is the largest private charity in the world). Organized religions also foster mutual support for their own members during times of personal crises or need. Many organized religions run homeless shelters, provide free counseling for various addictions, and promote charitable volunteer work among church members. And most of the time, churches do such good work without any publicity. But we all know that just one misdeed or failure by a prominent church member makes instant headlines. Such is the nature of the news media.

Here's a recent specific example of a good deed done by an organized religion: During the aftermath of Hurricane Irene, a local Christian church brought out 113 volunteers to cut wood from fallen trees, load it into 38 large trucks, and deliver it as free firewood to 33 needy families. The volunteers delivered between a half cord to three cords of firewood at each stop. For many, that firewood will be their only source of heat during the winter months, according to a press release. This is the fifth year that this particular church has spearheaded their "Firewood for Families" endeavor. The majority of the families who received the free firewood also utilize the church's food pantry, which serves more than 450 families every week. That's a lot of good work done by an organized religion!

and you people believe in god

wow...every think of changing your name to Rudeasswhiteguy?

For the anti-religious bigots on this thread who mock, deride, and ridicule believers:

You've got to wonder where all the laws of physics and mathematics, which govern the universe, came from in the first place. Those laws had to predate every material substance and every associated material process that brought the universe into existence and made it what it is today.

In addition, those laws are so complex that scientists have been studying them for millennia, but still don't fully comprehend them. I think that's where a spiritual Supreme Being (God) comes into play, because some sort of incredibly intelligent mind had to create the laws that govern our universe. And those laws did not evolve; they apply to the past just as they apply to the present and will apply to the future because without this belief, science would be impossible. So where did these laws come from? Did they just pop out of thin air? The atheists and secular scientists have no adequate explanation. Instead, they choose to believe that NOTHING working on behalf of NOTHING for NOTHING through NOTHING created EVERYTHING? How logical is that? That notion is more ludicrous than any belief in God.

The only plausible explanation for the existence of the laws of physics and mathematics is that they originated from an incomprehensibly intelligent Creator, a spiritual being we call God. In fact, here's what Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said about the topic: "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle." Long before that, Galileo opined the following about mathematics: "Mathematics is the language in which God has written the universe."

Exactly God is a name for the immutable laws of the universe , the energy , and the power that set them in place . Only evolved brains can comprehend the concept . Ignorant minds try to personify and quatify the truly unknowable .

good post !

Brainwashed fools. In magical (religious) thinking, things are true unless proven false. In the REAL world, things are false unless proven true. Organized religion is a way of controlling people. It is the true root of all evil. Stamp out religion and the world would be a safer better place.

The fact that man does not understand something is not the yardstick by which a supreme being must exist. All it shows is the arrogance and stupidity of man who thinks because he cannot do something a higher power must exist. Fools!

Ho Hum

face the facts:

YOU WROTE: "In the REAL world, things are false unless proven true."

MY RESPONSE: Well then, E=mc2 was false until Einstein proved it was true? Two plus two equals four was false until someone proved it was true? The existence of atoms was false until someone proved it was true?

So there are no enduring truths until someone proves them? Give me a break! And you call others brainwashed fools! What alternate universe do you live in? Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh!

Uhhhh, face the facts, really? Please tell me what created the sunset that allows our planet to exist? Please tell me if evolution is true, why we have never, ever found one transitional fossil? Please tell me why there is an order and pattern to the universe including time, seasons, etc.? Please tell me the why something as simple as a small cut can coagulate through a series of steps that could not be caused by something random? There are sooooo many questions that you atheists don't even bother to try to answer other than the typical, its "evolution". If I threw a bunch of scrabble pieces on a board, in a million years, it still wouldn't produce anything but something random. What makes you think over millions of years, something can turn into something with a pattern and order which originated from nothing?

Dear American, sounds like you have been listening to Oprah and her New Age gurus one too many times. Yawn! Merry CHRISTmas!

Rhonda Lucky, stop ur foolish God of the Gaps arguments. There are some questions, which science can't answer yet. But it doesn't mean ' therefore God'. There is no shred of evidence for a deity in the universe. Even if the Universe has been created by a deity, that deity is so impotent n stupid. The cutting edge Physics is already showing that there is a high possiblity that the Universe can infact come from nothing, no God is required. Your religous fools always duck the question who created God. You better get yourself educated by reading Stephen Hawking or Lawrence Krauss. Enough of your bronze age myths.

Fights, thanks for knocking ur foolish strawmen representing Atheists. Evolution is no random chance. Go get an education before you understanding it. It is a process that can also has chance built into it, but is not random chance alone. Our planet doesn't exist due to a sunset. You would fail a first grade exam. Yes there are thousands of transitional fossils, go look out for them in museams and you can find lots of peer reviewed scientific works on the subject if you bothered to research. Ohh wait, you religious are low IQ morons, so you never research or study. If if magically all the fossils in the world disappeared today, evolution can still be emperically demonstrated to be true using molecular genetics, bio-geography, study of morphology of living animals. Paleontology is just one line of evidence for evolution, not the only. It is your bull@!$%# religion that says we were created out of mud by some stupid 'doG'. So, you want me to believe that some random mud can turn into a human ? Take 1 billion tries, but can you turn random mud into a human you fools ? Evolutionary processses churning out new species has been observed in bacteria to fruit flies ( species whose spawing cycle is less and is easy for scientists to observe).

If you have any shred of intellectual honesty left, I suggest you to start watching some videos for evidence on evolution on youtube and start researching the facts yourself in peer reviewed journals. Ohh yea, I know asking for honesty from religious morons is too much, but guess what I consider myself deluded to expect honesty from the religious.

Rhonda lucky, no one is saying that e=mc2 is false until Einstein proved it. It should be considered false, as there is no way to ascertain its true or not, unless someone like Einstein demonstrated it to be true. If people were credulous and stupid like you, then we would have been in the stone ages still. Its scientific skepticism that brought us this far. The best way to iterate to truth n facts, is by skepticism, where you considered a claim to be false, unless someone provides evidence to prove its true. If everything is true unless its proved to be false, then I assert that I'm God and your bull@!$%# Christianity and all other religions are false. Well, no one proved that I'm not God. So, come out of ur childish delusions and learn some critical thinking pal

Name calling, arrogance, sarcasm and pretty much just a nasty attitude. But yet you have the temerity to slam the intelligence of others in three posts of ramblings, misspellings and piss poor grammar as well as flaunting your hatred, disrespect and zero understanding for the Beliefs of others.

A little too much eggnog this evening??? Or was it too much coal in your stocking???

Reminds me of a time when some coworker by mine goes off on a rant against intelligent design. I pull a slice of baloney out from my sandwich, hold it up in the air and say "this has all the ingrediants of a living, breathing, being. Would you mind giving it life?"

Srikar-4228274

Wow! Where do I begin? You are so consumed by hate, anti-religious bigotry, and misinformation that your comments are fogged with gross inaccuracies. Moreover, I'm making an exception here by responding to your posts because I usually don't enter into a discussion with people like you, who must resort to condescending rhetoric, name-calling, and mindless hostility. You apparently do that because you have nothing reasonable to say. You may think that your hate-laced style of debate has clout, but it just indicates to me that you've already lost the argument.

That being said, let me briefly rebut a few of the issues you raised. You claim, in so many words, that evolution is a proven fact while the truth is that evolution is a THEORY. You also claim that the fossil record has plenty of transitional examples (I assume you mean ACROSS species, etc.) for us to see in any museum. But that simply isn't true. Stephen Jay Gould, professor of Geology and Paleontology at Harvard University and the leading spokesman for evolutionary theory prior to his death, confessed that "the extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists as the trade secret of paleontology." He noted that "The history of most fossil species includes two features inconsistent with gradualism: 1. Stasis (or non-change). Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear... 2. Sudden Appearance. In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and 'fully formed.'"

In addition, Steven M. Stanley (paleontologist and geology teacher) of Johns Hopkins University, asserts that "…the fossil record does not convincingly document a SINGLE TRANSITION from one species to another." (emphasis mine)

Moreover, I recently purchased the book "Rare Earth" written by evolutionists Dr. Peter Ward (geological sciences) and Dr. Donald Brownlee (Astronomy). Note what they had to say in the chapter titled "The Enigma of the Cambrian Explosion":

"Undoubted fossils of metazoan (multicellular) animals have never been found in 600-million-year-old sedimentary strata, no matter where on Earth we go. Yet the fossils of such animals are both diverse and abundant in 500-million-year-old rocks, and they include representatives of most of the animal phyla still found on Earth."

"...This observation suggests that animals of staggering complexity appeared on Earth without evolutionary precursors. It is as though an orchestra began playing without sounding a single tone to tune up"

"For all of the animal phyla to appear in one single, short burst of diversification is not an obviously predicable outcome of evolution"

Of course mutations arise, and of course a wide variety of alleles can be expressed. The Creator unquestionably programmed each kind or creature the capability to adapt under various conditions. But there are clear barriers to variation. That is why birds remain birds, cats remain cats, dogs remain dogs, people remain people, apes remain apes, and fruit flies (which you mentioned in one of your comments) remain fruit flies.

You also claim that there is no proof for the existence of God. But I discovered many significant clues for His existence based upon science, logic, and common sense. While it's true that the existence of God cannot be proven in a laboratory, there is enough evidence to conclude that God exists beyond a reasonable doubt. For example, the existence of God is clearly indicated by an honest examination of the Argument from Design, two Laws of Thermodynamics, the Law of Cause and Effect, the Law of Biogenesis, clues from the Fossil Record, the Existence of Conscience, and the Wisdom of the Ages. These arguments collectively provide enough of a starting point to rightly conclude that a Higher Being of some kind exists. There isn't enough room here to discuss each of these clues in detail, so I'll just have to settle for listing them as I just did.

You also claimed that something can come from nothing (which actually violates the First Law of Thermodynamics; you do believe in science, don't you?), but you failed to explain. However, if you are referring to the behavior of matter versus anti-matter, their connection to nothingness has already been debunked, I think by Albert Einstein's own work. Incidentally, here's a quote from Einstein, whose religious beliefs were somewhat enigmatic. Nevertheless, he said, ""Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe – a spirit vastly superior to that of man…In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive." You wouldn't call Albert Einstein a fool, would you?

You also wrote that believers avoid the question concerning "Where did God come from?" Well, I already addressed that question on another website, so I don't wish to repeat myself here.

Finally, I'll close this comment by suggesting that YOU are the one who needs to become better informed so that you don't have to resort to name-calling and personal attacks. Please try to control your nasty disposition.

Rhonda, good post. If you haven't already read King Of The Earth by Erich Sauer, you may just want to add this to your library. It is out of print but you can usually find this in used book stores or online.

chefaz-1319563:

I'll keep a lookout for the book you suggest. However, I already have a backlog of books I must finish, hopefully by the end of 2012. Many of the book topics that interest me are printed faster than I can read them.

Rhonda, I did a book report as a term paper project in college on "King of the Earth" by Erich Sauer. I then spent 17 years looking for the out of print book, to purchase it. I was about to see if I could return to the college library, find the book and copy every page, when I found it on the Barnes and Noble site, here:

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/s/-King-of-the-Earth-by-Erich-Sauer?store=book&keyword=%22King+of+the+Earth%22+by+Erich+Sauer

It is a must read for any apologist for the faith, or for those seeking a rational explanation of science and faith. This one I'd at least have in hand, even if you don't find time to read it, as I expect copies in existence are finding permanent homes or being destroyed/lost.

Levi777:

Thanks for the information. I'm going to my local library today, so I'll check to see if that book is on their shelf. If not, I'll check into purchasing it based on the link you provided. You're not the first person who recommended reading that book.

Just for the record, while I was in college I took several science courses and went on numerous field trips collecting rocks, fossils, artifacts, etc. Yet nowhere at any time did any of my geology or paleontology professors mention the serious flaws in the THEORY of evolution, as evidenced by the fossil record. So, while I was studying on my own I accidentally stumbled upon several books in a public library that presented a whole different view of evolution. Those books NEVER mentioned creationism; they merely challenged the validity of the THEORY of evolution by pointing out several significant flaws, which I won't discuss here because of space constraints..

Anyway, one of the common threads among most of the library books I read about evolution was the lack of transitional fossils from one species to another. Then the books pointed out the following development, which I shall summarize IN MY OWN WORDS: what do you think the advocates of evolution did when confronted by all the notorious missing links in the fossil record? They simply searched for another model and found one they named the theory of "Punctuated Equilibrium," meaning that evolutionary change in the fossil record came in fits and starts rather than in a steady process of slow change.

But the theory of "Punctuated Equilibrium" is actually an unobserved, imagined scenario to explain missing evidence based on fossils not found and mechanisms not observed. In other words, punctuationists acknowledge that there is no evidence of gradualism in the fossil record, so they instead put their faith in a belief that evolution happened in bursts in small populations. They actually claim that the punctuation theory predicts that fossils should be missing! Therefore, the punctuationists core belief is essentially rooted in missing evidence! How convincing is that? As a result, all of the available data (real and imagined) from fossils is filtered through the preconceived, presupposed, and pre-accepted theory of evolution, without alternate explanations being considered at all.

So, from my college experience I had to conclude that the geology and paleontology professors at my school were intellectually dishonest in their presentations about evolution. They never mentioned the NUMEROUS flaws in evolution and never promoted a discussion about those flaws. In my opinion, proponents of evolution seem pretty close-minded. And I wonder why many of them go ballistic when the THEORY of evolution is even questioned. I've already seen that reaction on this newsvine thread.

Rhonda, Chefaz is a friend of mine, on and off Newsvine :-)

I think "intellectually dishonest" is a good way to put it. I long ago determined that I will fight for the truth only in truth, and it leaves me with small company. The insistence of my detractors to explain the conquest of Canaan, the Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt, Noah's flood, and others, causes them to disrespect any evidence at all. It comes from agenda. Why the agenda? What is the agenda?

They must have a no-God world at any cost. As Aldous Huxley is reported to have said, "I admit to having reasons for wanting a world without meaning, and consequently had no difficulty coming up with theories to support my conclusions."

My task is made infinitely more difficult by atrocities within the Catholic church, the fall of high-flying Evangelicals, and revealed wickedness within the Protestant church.

I find it interesting that atheism opts out of the discussion by calling a halt once the Christian declares God cannot be proven, nor will He submit Himself to the intellectual pursuits of man.

John 1:5: "the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot "κατέλαβεν" the Light." This κατέλαβεν has been translated in various ways that reveal only one facet of the thrust of the word. "understand", "comprehend", "overcome" but a better translation would be in phrase form: "...the darkness cannot "take possession of the Light so as to understand, control and manipulate the Light." And pardon me for saying so, but this fact really pisses off the darkness. Therefore, we experience an anger and vehemance greater than should be warranted from simple disagreement.

Anyway, I hope you do get the book. I'd encourage the purchase because it's one of those books that is referred too time and time again. Page 58 has a profound and excellent discussion of Love, and how it can only exist between free will creatures.

Levi777:

You know what? I used to be skeptical about the existence of God until I read some stunning news about Professor Anthony Flew, a world-class atheist philosopher who renounced his atheism in 2004 and proclaimed (in so many words) that the existence of God is REQUIRED to explain the universe and all the natural wonders in it. That transformation is comparable to Hugh Hefner announcing that he will begin living a celibate life. So, I wondered what Anthony Flew found out that was so momentous; in other words, what discovery moved Mr. Flew to change his belief from one "extreme" (atheism) to the other (theism)?

When I investigated a little further, I learned that advancements in science, ESPECIALLY REGARDING DNA, were primarily what swayed Mr. Flew towards his new-found belief in a deity. Here's what Mr. Flew declared: " ...the only reason which I have for beginning to think of believing in a First Cause god is the impossibility of providing a naturalistic account of the origin of the first reproducing organisms…What I think the DNA material has done is show that intelligence must have been involved in getting these extraordinarily diverse elements together. The enormous complexity by which the results were achieved look to me like the work of intelligence."

Spurred on by Mr. Flew's intriguing testimony, I began to read more about DNA and found some interesting facts I hadn't known before. But first, it's important to understand that all instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose. That being said, in every cell of our bodies there exists a very detailed instruction code, much like a miniature computer program. As you may know, a computer program is made up of ones and zeros, like this: 110010101011000. The way they are arranged tell the computer program what to do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very similar. It's made up of four chemicals that scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. THERE ARE THREE BILLION OF THESE LETTERS IN EVERY HUMAN CELL! DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It's a full instruction manual.

Why is this so amazing? One has to ask....how did this information program wind up in each human cell? These are not just chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct, that actively supervise in a very detailed way exactly how the person's body should develop. Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instructions, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it.

In every day terms, if the chemical formula for a drug that cures cancer is written down one day, all the authorities would join forces to identify the discoverers and even give them an award. Nobody would wonder if that formula was the result of ink being spilled on the page. Any rational mind would think that it could only have been written by someone with expertise in chemistry, physiology, oncology (the branch of medicine that studies cancer) and pharmacology (the branch that studies drugs). So, why doesn't the same common sense logic apply to the DNA message in our cells, i.e. the source of the message is an intelligent being (God)?

So, I did what Anthony Flew did, i.e. looked at a plethora of emerging scientific facts. Many of those facts (which I alluded to in an earlier post) point to the existence of God. That's what motivated me to become a believer.

You've joined the ranks of many Rhonda, myself included. Amazing the knowledge to be gained by researching even just one little word. The journey continues and joyous it is.

Sent a friend request and hope that you'll accept. Friends show up "blue" in text and make it much easier to find the posts of those who you find to be of value or interest.

Why don't the moderate muslims denounce what their violent brothers are doing?

good point.

@retired and Sonata

They have. Those that like to spread hate and fear (an act of satan) don't like people to know that though.

Here is a list for you with sources. Please share it with others who are more interested in living in peace and not spreading hate and fear.

Shaykh Yusuf Qaradawi, Qatar; Tariq Bishri, Egypt; Muhammad S. Awwa, Egypt; Fahmi Huwaydi, Egypt; Haytham Khayyat, Syria; Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Alwani, U.S.:
“All Muslims ought to be united against all those who terrorize the innocents, and those who permit the killing of non-combatants without a justifiable reason. Islam has declared the spilling of blood and the destruction of property as absolute prohibitions until the Day of Judgment. … [It is] necessary to apprehend the true perpetrators of these crimes, as well as those who aid and abet them through incitement, financing or other support. They must be brought to justice in an impartial court of law and [punished] appropriately. … [It is] a duty of Muslims to participate in this effort with all possible means.”
Statement of September 27, 2001. The Washington Post, October 11, 2001,
Full text of this fatwa in English and Arabic.

Shaykh Muhammed Sayyid al-Tantawi, imam of al-Azhar mosque in Cairo, Egypt:
“Attacking innocent people is not courageous, it is stupid and will be punished on the day of judgement. … It’s not courageous to attack innocent children, women and civilians. It is courageous to protect freedom, it is courageous to defend oneself and not to attack.”
Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001

Abdel-Mo’tei Bayyoumi, al-Azhar Islamic Research Academy, Cairo, Egypt:
“There is no terrorism or a threat to civilians in jihad [religious struggle].”
Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 20 – 26 September 2001,

Muslim Brotherhood, an opposition Islamist group in Egypt, said it was “horrified” by the attack and expressed “condolences and sadness”:
“[We] strongly condemn such activities that are against all humanist and Islamic morals. … [We] condemn and oppose all aggression on human life, freedom and dignity anywhere in the world.”
Al-Ahram Weekly Online, 13 – 19 September 2001,

Shaykh Muhammad Hussein Fadlallah, spiritual guide of the Hizbullah movement in Lebanon, said he was “horrified” by these “barbaric … crimes”:
“Beside the fact that they are forbidden by Islam, these acts do not serve those who carried them out but their victims, who will reap the sympathy of the whole world. … Islamists who live according to the human values of Islam could not commit such crimes.”
Agence France Presse, September 14, 2001

‘Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
“Firstly: the recent developments in the United States including hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood, constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts. Secondly: any Muslim who is aware of the teachings of his religion and who adheres to the directives of the Holy Qur’an and the sunnah (the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad) will never involve himself in such acts, because they will invoke the anger of God Almighty and lead to harm and corruption on earth.”
Statement of September 15, 2001,

‘Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
“You must know Islam’s firm position against all these terrible crimes. The world must know that Islam is a religion of peace and mercy and goodness; it is a religion of justice and guidance…Islam has forbidden violence in all its forms. It forbids the hijacking airplanes, ships and other means of transport, and it forbids all acts that undermine the security of the innocent.”
Hajj sermon of February 2, 2004, in “Public Statements by Senior Saudi Officials Condemning Extremism and Promoting Moderation,” May 2004, page 10

Shaikh Saleh Al-Luheidan, Chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council, Saudi Arabia:
“As a human community we must be vigilant and careful to oppose these pernicious and shameless evils, which are not justified by any sane logic, nor by the religion of Islam.”
Statement of September 14, 2001, in “Public Statements by Senior Saudi Officials Condemning Extremism and Promoting Moderation,” May 2004, page 6

Shaikh Saleh Al-Luheidan, Chairman of the Supreme Judicial Council, Saudi Arabia:
“And I repeat once again: that this act that the United states was afflicted with, with this vulgarity and barbarism, and which is even more barbaric than terrorist acts, I say that these acts are from the depths of depravity and the worst of evils.”
Televised statement of September 2001, in Muhammad ibn Hussin Al-Qahtani, editor, The Position of Saudi Muslim Scholars Regarding Terrorism in the Name of Islam (Saudi Arabia, 2004), pages 27-28.

Shaykh Muhammad bin ‘Abdallah al-Sabil, member of the Council of Senior Religious Scholars, Saudi Arabia:
“Any attack on innocent people is unlawful and contrary to shari’a (Islamic law). … Muslims must safeguard the lives, honor and property of Christians and Jews. Attacking them contradicts shari’a.”
Agence France Presse, December 4, 2001

Council of Saudi ‘Ulama, fatwa of February 2003:
“What is happening in some countries from the shedding of the innocent blood and the bombing of buildings and ships and the destruction of public and private installations is a criminal act against Islam. … Those who carry out such acts have the deviant beliefs and misleading ideologies and are responsible for the crime. Islam and Muslims should not be held responsible for such actions.”
The Dawn newspaper, Karachi, Pakistan, February 8, 2003,

Why don't the moderate muslims denounce what their violent brothers are doing?

If you want to pigeon-hole ALL muslims for the acts of few then you must take ownership of the actions of Anders Behring, David Koresh and Timothy McVeigh being they killed and/or committed acts of terror in the name of Chistianity.

Saying all Muslim are violent is like saying Mormons are Christians.

mean two : Thank you for your response along with quotes from some of the Muslim leaders. I only wish that the media would make the response from the non militant Muslims more known. I don't take ownership of any violent acts in the name of religion, by any religious groups, Christian or non.

I only wish that the media would make the response from the non militant Muslims more known.

Sad but very true. Unfortunately our media has found that sensational news is what sells.

frostyold goat: If Mormons claim to be Christians, then they are Christians. It is not for others (especially you) to judge who is and who isn't a Christian.

Moderate Muslims decry terrorist acts. This has been repeated again and again on this and other threads. I don't know it to be true, as I've never been invited into a Muslim community.

What I do know is that words are cheap. My question would be,

"Where does the money that you tithe go?"

Because, ladies and gentlemen, I was taught at an early age that if you follow the money, you'll find the cause. And "radical" or "fundamentalist" Islam is certainly being bankrolled from somewhere . . .

Yeah, now tell me the one about the Three Bears.....

couldnt have been said any better Alan,another act of terror by the @!$%#-in-the-toilet eextremists!

Amen.Alan

Where does it end? At your neighborhood mosque. When? Probably never

njmick

That's where it starts. Mandatory tithing. 1 Billion Muslims giving up 10% of their income yearly. Where does that money go?

Al Queda

Its actually reap what you SOW. Sew is for clothing, God Bless, ren

KKK are not christians; neither were the Nazis. Something wrong here. They may have been religious but that's not the same as christianity. Big difference.

@Lucy

Okay so is that a cross the KKK burns or am I just imagining it? And unless Protestants aren't considered Christian anymore than maybe you are right but last time I checked the KKK are a white Christian hate group.

They even claim Christianity on their website. Can you explain?

First of all, learn how to spell Mississippi. Second of all, ......well, I didn't read the rest, because I knew right then and there you were uneducated.

Third of all, to equate the power of all 600 members of the KKK with the power of Islam in today's world is a laughably stupid comparison. Stick to what you know. Springer comes on in half an hour.

So true, and note how the Christian haters and Islam defenders pour onto a topic like without even condemning the massacre(s) that took place. They don't even bother, such is their loss of persective and humanity.

Adam, I think pretty much everyone here with a few exceptions is condemning the massacre.

@Doug and Adam

If you want to pigeon-hole ALL muslims for the acts of few then you must take ownership of the actions of Anders Behring, David Koresh and Timothy McVeigh being they killed and/or committed acts of terror in the name of Chistianity.

There is just a slight difference. Ratio of Muslim attacks vs Christian attacks is 100:1 globally.

Are you forgetting to take into account the genocide perpetrated in Rwanda?

The Roman Catholic Church affirms that genocide took place but argues that those who took part in it did so without the permission of the Church.^[28] The Marian apparition, known as Our Lady of Kibeho, was seen in 1982. The Virgin Mary was said to have shown three visionaries a future blood bath and called for prayer and repentance. In 2001 the diocese approved the vision as "worthy of belief", indicating the Catholic Church's attitude regarding the Massacres.

Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Adam, I think pretty much everyone here with a few exceptions is condemning the massacre. -- Sonata's Adela

I don't know about that. If they do, it's pretty far down on their list of words to include in their posts.

@Doug and Adam. If you want to pigeon-hole ALL muslims for the acts of few then you must...

I never said anything about "ALL Muslims." What I''m saying is that ISLAM plants the seeds for such actions with bigoted, intolerant, and violent passages that disparage and insult Non-muslims, while elevating Islam to Supremacy over ALL OTHERS. That is where the terrorists find support and encouragement for their murderous acts.

The Bible contains similarly violent passages, especially in the Old Testament.

Please name violent passages from the New Testament.... be accurate.

The old Testament has such passages as "an eye for an eye" etc... BUT if you read the entire context, you will understand these are far different than the Koran, which says that it is OK to lie and deceive non Muslims.... the Bible calls dishonesty under ANY circumstance blasphamy.

No comparison. But, again, it is NOT Christians committing atrocities across the globe, much to the dismay of secular progressives. It is muslims. No matter HOW the media, President, or professors want to hide it. THEIR "bible" specifically says to enslave and kill "infidels"... anyone NOT Muslim. Always has. They prey on the gullible, and weak to succeed. So far so good.

@George

Matthew 8:12

But many Israelites--those for whom the Kingdom was prepared--will be thrown into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 10:21

And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Matthew 10:34-35

³⁴Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

³⁵For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Ok, I am just gonna stop now because that is just what I pulled from Matthew in the NEW TESTAMENT.

Here is a passage from the bible I suggest you familiarize yourself with:

Luke 6:42

How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Merry Christams!

Try practicing your own will. No need to be cowed in to doing the right thing with the requirement of a religious affiliation.