I suspect if he had pointed the gun at the road or even directly at her their would have been no issue. Even a modern high power rifle the bullet drops a huge amount in 1.5 miles. When you factor in the wind and weather much less the random projectile speed due to hand loaded gunpowder I doubt a computer could calculate the direction to point the gun to hit a moving target.

He likely discharged it for the purpose of cleaning since that way is easier and safer than pulling the ball back out the barrel. A reasonable method is shooting into a known backstop and not randomly into the air as seems the case.

It wasn't an accident - more like negligence.

It wasn't an accident - more like negligence.

The word you are look for is Involuntaryr Man Slaughter. Only a complete idiot fires a rifle or hand gun into the air for any reason.

Accident is when some bad happens and nothing was done wrong. This idiot broke about a half dozen basic gun common sense rules. His action are no diffent than a drunk driver or some one texting will driving. He cause this young life to come to a end because he could not take the time to learn basic gun saftey.

Wow, When it's your time . . .
What are the odds of this happening? On a moving carriage from a mile and a half. That is some seriously tough luck. Sad.

I'd said yesterday that if this were indeed an accident (which yesterday, I thought the chances were minimal) it would be akin to winning the lottery; the chances so slim. Now, to find out it was 1.5 miles away.... just mind boggling. Still, just very, very sad....

I don't think you should be allowed to own a gun if you weren't in the military. There is a reason why you see red barrels filled with sand placed at 45 degree angles anytime you have to enter the entrance to the armory.

This was just sheer ignorance of firearms and what they do.

Basic safe gun handling entails never discharging a weapon anywhere you don't intend for the bullet to go -- meaning no matter where you are, no matter what you're doing, you don't shoot the gun randomly. You don't need to be in the military to know this, it's as basic as "don't point a gun at anything you don't want to kill".

C.O.

I agree with you. who shoots muzzle loading rifle into the air? This person should never have a fire arm in his possession.

The article states: " A man cleaning his muzzle-loading rifle accidentally shot and killed the girl, who was driving a buggy more than a mile away..."

There are several ways to clean a muzzle-loaded rifle. Some prefer to discharge the gun and then clean. Those with half a brain fire it into a back-stop so that there is no danger to others. This man is an idiot.I understand that her Amish relatives will not say this so, prosecute this jerk.

Has any one asked why there seem never to be reports of deaths when the Arabs of North Africa and in other places shoot off their guns in their way of celebration? What goes up must come down......

Steve, I vehemently disagree that only members of the military should be allowed to own guns, however I would easily agree that non-military gun owners must go through the same level of education about them.

I still believe charges should have been brought, even if they were suspended or put the fellow on probation. Firing a weapon into the air is a negligent act that, in this case, caused a death. It's no different than a vehicular accident killing someone. Negligent homicide or manslaughter charges are often brought and suspended or probated to create a record of the incident.

I agree with you Bob, this was not an accident, it was negligence that resulted in a homicide - thus negligent homicide. A person was killed by the negligent discharge of the "killers" weapon in a way that allowed the lethal projectile to strike someone. There is guilt, but there is not malice or intent. When someone uses something that has the potential of causing bodily harm or "killing someone", then they must assume responsibility for their actions and society should hold them accountable.

Steve. First off in the military ITS NOT A GUN its a weapon. I did many pushups over that one. Also this is why they have hunter safety courses for civilians to teach people how to handle a weapon, how to clean, discharge them, ect ect ect. If this person had taken said course then stick them in jail. For not following safety rules and regulations.

This doesn't sound like an accident.

excuse me ya' all.. but.. I'm not one to curse much.. but..

B U L L C H I T !!

I love and own guns. And IMO.. there is NO SUCH THING as an *accident* when a gun is involved. Even hunting, if you aren't in the process of shooting, or getting ready to shoot, safety on, chamber empty..PERIOD !

"In all probability, it looks like an accidental shooting," Zimmerly said.

No charges have been filed.

Calling these episodes "accidents" fires me up.

"accidents" like this give all gun owners a bad name. RESPONSIBILITY dammit....grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

We have had incidents like this during New Years Eve here. My condolences to the family. It always seems to be the innocents who a injured or killed. Please take care with firearms.

FILE CHARGES!! Everyone of us who is a responsible hunter/gun owner KNOWS that you don't ever fire a shot in the air. We KNOW to check the chamber before we clean it. We KNOW the safety should always be on. This was irresponsibility at the least...

FILE CHARGES!!

What do you call it when a hunter misses his shot because the target moved at the last instant, and the bullet strikes a unseen person? Sounds like an accident to me.

My guess is that the shooter was Amish as well, and if so would never take a gun safety course. They would get their knowledge of gums from their fathers ans grandfathers. I would say this was a tragic accident.

Just goes to show what happens when you put a gun in the hands of an idiot! Just my opinion.....

MrCool; the media doesn't report 95% of the intentional shootings. A kid in my old neighborhood shot another kid on a dare - it never made any local or State media.

OverPaid; that is the same view point most pot smokers have toward those who don't use weed responsibly. Smoking to enjoy something is one thing - trying to get as high as you can is another.

Unfortunately I think Ive been around more irresponsible gun owners than responsible ones - you have to drink that beer before you can shoot the cans and bottles.

I at least support owning this type of rifle - these $10,000 fully automatic weapons people can buy now will ruin it for everyone.

(sniff, sniff) I smell the distinct aroma of BULL$H!T. A muzzle-loader that can shoot over 1.5 miles? When you consider that it was shot up and that it still travelled over 1.5 miles, how much of a load was in the breech?

If muzzleloaders are that powerful how come there weren't that many through penetrations in the revolutionary and civil war battles? One round could have take out several soldiers if they were that powerful.

It doesn't take a firearms expert to realize that someone is stretching the story but it does take an idiot to accept the story.

"three-eigths of a mile" Who measured the distance? American units of measure are tenths of a mile. Who has the jacked up odometer?

Muzzleloaders are very different today that in the civil/revolutionary war. Anyone who has gone into a hunting/sporting goods store could have told you that. Also, wind speeds greatly increase higher into the atmosphere, could have easily been blown farther.

Further more, they could have easily simplified the distance. instead of saying a number near 1,980 ft., to make it easier to understand and relate to the distance, they decided to say "three-eigths of a mile".

It's a tragic accident by a negligent gun owner with an extremely improbable chance of occuring, though not impossible.

This is stupid.Black powder is and always has been black powder.This sounds like a snow job to me.

Dear The Tinker (1.22)

I posted some of this elsewere but look-up 45-70 at Sandy Hook or Billy Dixon at Adobe Walls. Both events occured in the 19th century and with black powder.

I'm with you 'OverPaidCivilServant'! I grew up in the country driving and shooting from a very very young age, with no formal class beforehand. Fortunately, there was always an experienced adult along, at first, to teach the essentials. Still, the quality of my learning laid at the feet of my teacher and his teacher before him/her. One lesson I was taught for hunting, was to shoot three times 'in the air' if I got into any trouble while away from my partner. In high school I learned "What goes up, must come down." Hhhmmmm.... In the news I read that revelers at a wedding party in a mideastern country were shooting their rifles towards the heavens as part of the celebration and killed someone at the wedding. Little pieces of information here and there, and I started to get the point. This is NOT the way to get the point!

While I staunchly believe in our right to bear arms, I have also come to believe that we should have a gun safety certification in order to hunt, carry or own any kind of firearm. Nothing that registers us to our firearms, just something that says we took an official class and that we have the common sense to pass it.

I like my guns and I look up my laws and when I'm too old to drive I'll quit and when I'm to old to have a gun my kids said they will take them when I'm not looking.

Peace out!

Sorry, that was bare arms, not arm bears...

Yes modern in-line muzzle-loader slugs can go quite a distance.. It was very bad luck that this happened and the guy should have been much much more careful.

Im deeply saddened for the girl and her family and this sounds like a accident of the most freakish nature..

No a freak accident wouldn't entail some @!$%# shooting off his gun. The article didn't say the gun accidently went off. The man should have all firearms removed from his idiot possession since he is not a responsible gun owner and this proved it, much to the eternal horror of the girl's family.

I have, for 30 years and F Walsh is right, it is extremely irresponsible to point gun of any type into the air and fire it unless you know for a certainty what is downrange.

F Walsh- do you have any guns? Have you ever messed with a muzzle loaded weapon? Didnt think so.

Wow by the force: I 'm a gun toting hunter and I back F walsh comment 100%. It is stuipd gun owner like this guy and the people that defend him that endanger gun ownership for everone. Guns are very dangerous and the best defense we have agaisnt the anti gun crowd is to call the idiots with guns what they are and back the removal of guns from those that show by they action they are to stuipd to safety handle them.

I learned gun saftey at a young age and 90% of the people I meet at gun shows or with NRA stickers on there trucks scary the crap out of me. They have no training and are more concerned with there "RIGHT To Bare Arms" than learning use them safely.

Iirresponsible for the shooter, but a freak accident none-the-less.

No Toosano. It would be an accident if the gun fired without the owner pulling the trigger. If he intentionally fired it into the air regardless of his intent, her death was not an accident. Not by the legal definition anyway.

I had a Kentucky long rifle muzzle loader that missed fired so I very carefully laid it down and waited it took about seemed like 2 or 3 minuted but then it fired dont look down the barrel LOL

I was taught at an early age-hunting safety by my Dad. When my girlfriends were playing with Barbies I was hunting with my Dad. You never -ever discharge a gun into the air. Always a backstop or area where you know the bullet will go. I think common sense has gone the way of the Dinos' We had a guy here not to long ago shooting targets (toward a main road, mind you) and guess what? His shot went into a car hitting a woman passenger in the jaw and shattered it. Thankfully the husband realized they were being shot at and got the Hell outta there. Meanwhile the guy continued happily shooting his little target oblivious to the fact he had shot someone until the sheriff showed up.

No, this is a problem with complacency, the guy did this 100 times, never had issues. Probably forgot the gun was loaded because he hadn't touched it in a couple months. Didn't think twice about clearing the weapon. Accident?! Of course it is an accident. Do you know how many MARINES and ARMY SOLDIERS shoot negligent discharges on their weapon systems? ALL THE TIME!!!! And they are all because of complacency, getting too comfortable, going through the motions because you have done it all the time. Negligent because he was complacent. No guilty of a crime, accidents happen, people and things get hurt.

He is not a murderer, he is not equivalent of a thuggish gangster who goes out and has to make a name for himself by shooting someone one purpose. Sounds like these people were neighbors in a rural sense, and he probably feels terrible about it. So give him a god damn break.

And no, I am from Iowa originally, but I am in the USMC in San Diego. In rural culture you own a damn gun. You do it for protection. What if someone came to your door at 3am in the morning and wanted to take you hostage and rape and pillage you and your family? Even if you had time to call the cops, would they get there in time to save your life or your families life? Probably not, depending on where you live.

If pointed upwards at a 45° angle it can travel quite far. Gravity takes it the final distance. The wound would be on the upper half of her skull. The odds of a random slug falling at the exact time of her passing by is probably astronomical. Discharging a weapon into the air is blatantly irresponsible. Death, injuries and near misses happen all the time when people do it to celebrate.New Years Eve.
Even a small percentage of stupid people with guns can offset all the responsible gun owners.

where did u live rape and pillage? take ur family hostage? i mean really? where ina rural part of America is that so common and the police r so slow to get there that u all buy guns just for that? get real no one needs guns people make up excuses, and they keep believing in that excuse and keep making up fake evidence until they make it a fact and reason in theyre delusional head

Well in some rural parts of the country you only have 1 full time cop in a town and he covers the farm area nearby. Along with the sheriffs whose office is at least 20 miles away. City boy thats the way it is.

San Diego 10... I'm sure the guy cleaning his gun feels terrible about what happened. But that's not an excuse to give the guy a break. He doesn't deserve a break nearly as much as he deserves jail time.

The guy discharged his weapon negligently and, most likely, illegally too. Now a young girl is dead due to his negligent, unlawful action. In my opinion, it's no different than drunk driving. I feel bad for the guy.... but he made a bed for himself and now it's time to lie in it.

SanDiego10: Since WHEN is San Diego considered "rural." Give me a break!! Typical Marine......and this is from a veteran Army officer!!

I have never shot a muzzelloader. Can they actually have the power to penetrate at that distance?

Hey DIDI YOU DAMN IDIOT. How about you read my post. I am from Iowa, I am stationed in San Diego. Yeah you represent the intelligence of the Army obviously. Lets talk Fallujah should we? Army... spahhh.. Anyways

B33: How about, do you know what people would do if they were high on meth, driving around an old country road. Would you know? I am just saying you cannot determine what would happen if some stranger came to your door at all hours of the night. Trust me, its happened to me and folks when I lived in Iowa. Some biker at 3am in the morning 15 miles from city limits, drives up our side walk to our porch and proceeds to bang on the door, WHILE there is door bell. Looking for some people we knew, that wouldn't be interested in that guy. Hmm weird...

Harold: One of my Marines was coming into work at 3AM we were going to 29 Palms for pre-deployment training. While driving with his wife to work, a lady is running across a 4 lane street. In the dark with no clothing on that stood out, just walking. My Marine hit her in the head with his side view mirror. Nothing happened to him because it was an accident... now granted she was illegally crossing a street but she is still a pedestrian but cars must STOP for all pedestrians. Would you say my Marine Strickland should have been charged with vehicular manslaughter for killing that woman on the 76E at 3AM in the morning? Why not? He hit someones daughter, wife, friend, niece, whatever... Accidents happen. My Marine could of paid attention better, he may of saw her.

How dumb do you have to be to forget your gun is loaded - San Diego; your reach earned you a big FAIL.

you didn't know? The ass.... didn't either. What a way to find out!

Guns are not toys. No civilian should have, use, shoot one. Period.

Dear Posters,

Black powder firearms either muzzle loader or breech loader have the ability to reach out and do damage for your reading pleasure try,45-70 at Sandy Hook. Most people think long range shooting started with smokeless powder or during recent times. This is simply false another famous shot is Billy Dixon at Adobe Walls look that up abd you will be surprised. This is simply an accident caused by a person not taking care and being complacent or unawares of the ability of black powder firearms to reach out.

Happens all the time, watched an infantry Marine, forget how to clear a M19 and lets just say negligently discharge a granade. Luckily he was pointed away from Camp Fallujah and no one was hurt. But @!$%#, people forget the simple things because they get too comfortable. That's what complacency is Drainbramage.

A very sad thing to happen to such a young person, I'm sure the person that did this will have a lifetime to think about it.

B33. You sound like a total puss. I hope you're never in the situation that you need a firearm. You may think that everybody in the world are nice people but take off those rose colored sunglasses. I hope there is somebody there to protect, or bail you out, when violent crime comes knocking at your door. Jeesh.

I don't have a gun, but wish I did. IF someone did a home invasion [pretty common no matter where you are and will grow worse with the economy] why be a helpless victim? What are you going to do? Hide under the bed?

I like the 80 year old TN woman who heard several thugs break into her house. She calmly got her shot gun, sat up in her bed and when they kicken in her bedroom door, she gave them both barrels. It's not just in the rural areas, read your papers.

Everyone should have a gun---but extensive training and trigger locks.

Most current state laws state something to the effect of Reckless Dicharge of a firearm is when a person willfully and intentionally discharges a firearm in a careless or reckless manner which would lead a reasonable and prudent person to believe a possibility of death or gross bodily injury exists to person/s surrounding.

This is a tragedy and one caused by carelessness, but it would be difficult for the police to show a reasonable expectation of injury exists and also in most states muzzle loading weapons are not considered firearms. This is why minors and convicted felons can legally possess them along with bows or other archery equipment.

I would expect civil litigation will result from this even if no criminal charges are followed.

The Amish do not sue.

The article didn't state the gun accidently went off. He willfully discharged it. Since someone was killed it was obviously done in a wreckless manner.

Wouldn't it be manslaughter at the very least?

F Walsh... Here's part of the first sentence in the article;

A man cleaning his muzzle-loading rifle shot the gun into the air,

Where does it say WILLFULLY..

I'm not defending the mans actions, he was careless and wreckless. Willful I doubt.

But I'll reserve final judgement until the authorities make a final determination after an investigation.

No people do not get their license revoked just fo having an accident that involves death. Because we are all humans and make mistakes.

.

I'm a shooter, including of muzzleloaders.

If you fire a muzzleloader while "cleaning" it, you're going to launch the ramrod/cleaning rod instead of a ball/bullet.

This brain donor wasn't cleaning the rifle - that's just the standard lie told by morons who have negligent discharges. This does a disservice to all gun owners, and potential gun owners, as it perpetuates the myth that guns can just "go off".

F Walsh... Here's part of the first sentence in the article;

A man cleaning his muzzle-loading rifle shot the gun into the air,

Where does it say WILLFULLY..

Where does it say "accidentally?"

There will be no civil case. The Amish would never pursue such a thing. As great as the odds were of this happening they will simply right it off as God's Will and move on. That's just how they roll!

"A man cleaning his muzzle-loading rifle shot the gun into the air,"

So, what? He had his finger on the trigger and accidentally squeezed? Good grief people! Man shot gun. It takes terminal stupidity to not understand the man formed the intent to shoot the gun and followed with action. Therefore, willful.

The willfil part is when he fired into the air insted of the ground.

Muzzle loader 101, at the end of the day you discharge into the earth not the air. If this guy would have just point the gun at the ground say 10 foot away a young girl would be alive.

Well Kristl90, to continue along your same example: yes, if he willfully or negligently killed someone with his motor vehicle while operating that vehicle, he would be prosecuted. 'BUT', this would be an example akin to him working outside his car while he accidentally left it out of gear, and it jumped off the jack without a driver, rolled 1.5 miles down the road and arbitrarily ran over a victim and killed them. Intent? Hardly. Negligence? Perhaps, but hard to prove. Obviously, he is going to argue, he didn't know the gun was loaded (or he wouldn't have been cleaning it). Just a sad, sad accident and accidents happen every day to good, undeserving young (and older) people.

By your logic, cars should also be banned.

mojo7: ??????????????????????? Have I said too much?

Stop it.

It was a stupid accident, and nothing more.

Accidents happen. What if you accidently hit a child that rushes around a parked car on their bike? would you like to be forgiven or thrown in jail? FORGIVENESS seems to be a forgotten word in the American language

Ur a knee jerk liberal moron Kristi. Accidents happen even if it could of been avoided. RIP to the girl.

I do not believe the Amish would file suit. If it had been my firearm however, I would have been sobbing on my knees to the parents of that child. And while begging forgiveness from the Amish would be like begging a drink from a river, I do not believe their forgiveness would have given me any consolidation from my own self.

Natural selection. She just so happened to be.... while he just so happened to..... dead. Doesn't really matter to her, he has to live with her blood on his conscience. That in itself is a fairly heavy burden. You assume he(the shooter) is some sociopathic criminal instead of someone's uncle or brother or father that made a critical mistake. Stop whining about whether people should own guns or not. Good grief, no one is supposed to be human any more. I forgot that we are godlike in perfection. smh

Kristi~ That is precisely what is wrong with this country. There's no such thing as an accident anymore. If somebody accidentally killed somebody with their car, then yes... they probably would be prosecuted. Which is a travesty. Particularly if it's an accident. We are so sue happy and ready to convict them on the court of public opinion before we know all of the facts. Don't just take one small article about this and then decide he should be thrown under the bus. Get all the facts before you convict him.

Tell me, are there any adults in the room? What type of fools create these "accidents?" First time I handled a gun the adult in in the room told me every gun is assumed loaded and handled so. I was raised that that was rule number one.

It was just a freak accident. Sure, it was reckless and stupid of the man to clean the thing while loaded. But hitting someone over a mile away with a muzzle on purpose? I bet he would be hard pressed to do that with a standard rifle. It's a sad event, nothing more.

John not all "adults" even those with hunting licenses are that smart. Which is how my friends 63 chevy got six bullet holes in the engine block from some blockhead city boy hunting deer with armor piercing ammo.

Kristi, i wish that someone would have properly educated you as to why americans have guns. if you arent armed, you are a subject, not a citizen. this was a freak accident that the guy will have weigh on his mind forever. but it has nothing to do with our "gun fetish". its unfortunate that the bullet killed her instead of some moron with your political views. -col. smith

Tech_man, I suppose you'd say "nothing more" if it was your own daughter, eh? It's a lesson. The saying goes that wise men learn from others' experience, and fools learn from their own experience.

I don't believe it will be up to the Amish to sue this man....he may be tried by the State whether they wish to file charges or not. We'll have to see if they feel they have a valid case, and I think they do. I AM sorry for the girl's family and hope they will be able to get through this. As for the man who did the shooting...he will have a very heavy burden to carry for a long time no matter what happens to him.

It was an accident! That poor girl was in the wrong place at the wrong time. This guy was cleaning his gun and it went off, not uncommon. It happens all the time when people accidentally shoot themselves, or someone else. Also as to your auto accident remark, if you have an auto accident, your are driving the speed limit, and your are not high or drunk, should you be prosecuted for and ACCIDENT? NO! Accidents happen, sometimes they are minor and other times a person loses their life, it is all part of the risk we take everyday, as to whether we will make it to the end or not alive. Grow up, learn a lesson. How you would feel about being locked up for a car wreck? Or someone tripped in your house and hit their head? Put yourself in this man's shoes, he has the guilt to live with forever that a momentary accident robbed someone of their life, a family of a child.

IF, and it's a big IF, the man is charged it will likely for negligent discharge of a firearm. This didn't occur in one of your sardine can packed cities full of idiots shooting guns all the time. It was very rural area and the guy tipped the rifle up and fired it to empty it to clean. It was not a modern cartridge gun where by the action is opened and cartridges removed to empty it. It was a MUZZLE loader, as the name implies, powder and ball are pushed down the barrel and a cap affixed to the nipple or if a flint lock powder put in the priming pan. The only practical way to empty a muzzle loader is to fire it. Should he have fired it into the ground or other back stop, yes. Out in the middle of the sticks, what are the chances of a bullet hitting someone in this situation, far less than winning the lottery or being struck by lightening. You are millions of times more likely to get killed in a car wreck.

This man must now live with the knowledge that his momentary lapse of reason cost a girl her life. Personally, that would be a heavy load indeed, to carry. But all you anti-gun city ass wipes will demand your pound of flesh. Yet, you are desensitized to all the purposeful shooting in your cities as "A fact of life in the big city" by the criminal elements. You rail against this tragic accident. As if he did it on purpose. The best long range shooters in the world couldn't have pulled off this in one shot intentionally with a muzzle loader, not any, including the military snipers. Grow up people. It happens, it's tragic and it is EXTREMELY rare. There will be more than ten thousand car wrecks before you hear about another like it.

Accidentally? So, drunk drivers just "accidentally crash head-on other drivers? Of course not! And yes, you can have your license revoked, if you drive drunk, if you have an accident while drunk. Amish don't sue? They shouldn't. It is the people's DA who should be pressing criminal charges. They should protect the general population from irresponsible, imprudent, and negligent behavior of an individual.

Accident? The only accident here is the shooter to be born. The whole story is a tragedy that shouldn't have happened. A 15 year-old-girl killed by stupidity.

This brain donor wasn't cleaning the rifle - that's just the standard lie told by morons who have negligent discharges.

Yeah I hate that. It's hard for a gun to go off while cleaning it. I mean how the hell does that happen? It was probably loaded and he shot it in preparation to clean it. Or maybe he just shot it. The other thing that happens is people dry fire their guns, or rather think they are dry firing them. I have a rule that I never dry fire a gun so I don't get in the habit of pulling the trigger without thinking. If I have to dry fire it to check something works, I like check twice to see that it isn't loaded, again just to get in the habit of doing that. In fact even if I just pick it up I check it. You want to build up a bunch of redundant safety habits, i.e. never point a gun unsafely, don't dry file etc, so if you have a mental break down on one you still wont have an accident.

As I said, The Venezuelan exile pipes up. People are killed every day by stupidity, intentional stupidity. See your claimed state Venezuala. Or Africa, ten thousand will die before sun down for no reason at all. Where's all you outrage for them? This is an occurrence of such large numbers of probability as to be mind boggling. Perhaps that's why you can not grasp it's significance. To put it into perspective, you are about 100 million times more likely to win the power ball, 200 million times more likely to be struck by lightening, 300 million times more likely to be run down by a city bus, 1.5 billion time more likely to die in a car wreck or house hold misadventure like falling down the stairs. This is the perfect storm of happenstance aligning. You Sir, need to get a grip. It's a tragedy without doubt. But one of such rare occurrence you will here of thousands of traffic fatalities before you hear of another like it.

Hey Swan;

See my previous posts. It was a MUZZLE loader, not a cartridge gun. Should he have fired it into t he ground or back stop, yes. Then do the math of this happening in a very rural area, with very low population density. It wasn't in one of the sardine packed cities. By the way, far more are shot in cities every day than in these area's a decade. Get some facts, folks.

See my previous posts. It was a MUZZLE loader,

Yes I know hence I wrote "he shot it in preparation to clean it". He should still get involuntary man slaughter for that.

Gun fetish? Hmm, could it maybe have something to do with the fact that guns allowed the greatest country on Earth to be formed and without them I would not exist? Yeah, I think that's it. Are you retarded? Yeah, I think so. Will you parasites ever get my guns? Yeah, but I'll be dead and won't have any use for them anymore. Serious question. Does it ever occur to you how stupid you sound when you complain about firearms? Every other week or so we hear about a gun related death and then here come you parasites talking about banning guns bla bla bla. Do you realise that when you have a country with 300,000,000+ people, things happen? Accidents happen, nut jobs "go off", criminals commit crimes, etc. Yeah, you do realise, but you are parasites trying to make your host weaker in order to feed more easily. Not all of us are blind.

Yeehaw!!!

@ lola007: You may not like it here. You make way too much sense. ~_o

Even with all of the care in the world and every precaution taken, accidents still happen. Amish never press charges. (It's against their religion.) If the guy is telling the truth, (even if the story kinda smells like three day old fish), there isn't much that can be done. So the only thing left to do is forgive and move on... Hopefully this schmuck has learned something and does something to help the girl's family.

BTW - If guns kill people, mine are all defective.

"A 9mm may expand but a 10mm will never shrink" -- Anonymous

Swan;

Okay, I'll remember you said that if you have a lapse of reason that costs someone their life. Like backing over a kid your car, or hitting them with a mower or a rock thrown by it or any of the other stupid ways that people die from every day. I expect you'll just march yourself in to the police station. Climb down off the soap box, unless your running for office. Do the probabilities, given the area, population density and this poor girl being in just the precise place when the bullet came down are 1 in 8 billion. Far greater than the population of the entire planet. As i said, it's tragic but, damn, people and children die of stupid things around the house with far more frequency. Where's the law and order, throw them in jail for those? Or is it just because it involves a gun? Cars kill far more people every year. So I suppose anyone involved in a traffic accident desires jail time? Get real.

1

Excuse me that should have been 1 in 800 billion. If you calculate the odds of it hitting her in the head, given relative size to the surrounding area, her body, buggy and the horse pulling said buggy,, it goes up to 1 in 1.72 Trillion.

Okay, I'll remember you said that if you have a lapse of reason that costs someone their life. Like backing over a kid your car, or hitting them with a mower or a rock thrown by it or any of the other stupid ways that people die from every day. I expect you'll just march yourself in to the police station. Climb down off the soap box, unless your running for office. Do the probabilities, given the area, population density and this poor girl being in just the precise place when the bullet came down are 1 in 8 billion. Far greater than the population of the entire planet. As i said, it's tragic but, damn, people and children die of stupid things around the house with far more frequency. Where's the law and order, throw them in jail for those? Or is it just because it involves a gun? Cars kill far more people every year. So I suppose anyone involved in a traffic accident desires jail time? Get real.

Get real yourself! SOMEONE FREAKING DIED! This isn't a simple traffic accident. Anyone who owns guns knows (or should know) you don't shoot them in the air. And anyone with a muzzle loader has to be an enthusiast so they should definitely know that. If it were my kid I would be pressing charges and if the DA didn't do something I would.

PEOPLE DIE EVERY HOUR OF EVERY DAY, INTENTIONALLY. Wheres your righteous indignation about them? AS I SAID, many times, apparently you have selective vision, he should have fired it into the ground or other bask stop. In the time it takes to type this three or four will die some where and it will be intentional. He didn't, but given the astronomical numbers involved, I've wager it will a long time before you hear of another case like this. Demand you pound of flesh, fine, just remember it if you are involved in something stupid that you could have prevented. So backing over a kid with your car classifies as a simple traffic accident in our mind? When they put in hand cuffs remember that. Accidents happen, even preventable one, every hour of every day. No one is perfect, not even you.

Kristl, I would so love to know your demographics (i.e. age, education, geographic location, and the economic situation you were raised in). I detect a drastic lack of life experience, and an opinion of we gun owners shaped by media making its money off blatant sensationalism and exaggeration.

I have owned, built, and studied firearms and ballistics probably longer than you've been alive. If you started learning about them right now I guarantee you I have forgotten more than you could ever hope to learn. If you were to see my collection of guns you would no doubt run screaming for the hills with the impression I am some sort of lunatic. Brace yourself! I even own assault rifles! I carry a handgun to work every day. I am not "gun crazy" but a man who respects the technological evolution of The Boom Stick. I was a U.S. Marine, am an avid shooter, and hunt constantly. I, like all those I associate with in the sport of shooting/hunting, respect the tools I carry. I have never even come close to an accidental discharge as I am anally careful. As are those I shoot with. I am no back woods, ta-back-ee chawin', booze swilling yahoo waving around his shotgun, firing in the air yelling "YEE-HAWWWW!". I am a published author, hold three degrees (including a masters), am a decorated retired firefighter/paramedic, a great father and husband, and a successful business owner. I partake in neither alcohol nor drugs. And I OWN AND USE GUNS, AND AM PROUD TO DO SO.

And the blunt truth is this. This poor, young girl had a better likelihood of being killed by someone more like I imagine you to be. A young urban or suburbanite dodging through rush hour traffic at better than 85 MPH while applying eye liner, texting, singing along with some Justin Beiber tune, and thinking about who you'll spend the weekend with.

But, perhaps, I could be wrong.

But now YOU know what it's like to be stereotyped, eh?

M.R. Chase;

Thank you, at last, another voice of reason in the abyss that is the leftist urban, lawyer crazed, unenlightened masses.

That’s the answer that will make it all better isn't it, throw him in prison for a disproportionate amount of time, make him a felon and stand on his throat for the rest of his days and bask in the thought of him being miserable and part of the "third class" citizens that our criminal justice system makes of anyone who is unlucky enough to fall into it's teeth!!

This is an unfortunate accident that this man will have to live with for the rest of his (possibly short from the stress and grief) life, that is worse than any prison or sentence that a judge can impose upon someone!! Do you think society will have to worry about this man EVER doing something like this again? While it is unfortunate this will also serve as a lesson to others as to what the dangers are of not knowing what is behind your target!! I find it hard to believe that if this man is not charged with some crime that it will somehow send a message out to the public that it's OK to blatantly fire your weapon in any direction and that suddenly we will see everyone everywhere shooting their weapons into the air and death following in its path!!

Again it is shown that the American public has been led to believe that harsh penalties and prison is the answer to everything!! Crimminy, how in the hell did this happen to what is supposed to be the land of the free? There is no such thing as personal responsibility or an accident, it is a tug of war over just what kind of prison sentence and government supervision that people can be placed upon and just how much they can keep their thumbs on you for the rest of your life after that!!!

Nicodemus, Your lawn mower throwing a rock analogy was the weakest lamest argument I have ever heard. A lawn mower is not a killing machine. A gun is. A mower kicking up a rock killing someone is rare. Most mower accidents happen because people let their kids sit on their laps while riding a tractor type mower. Shooting a gun is meant to kill. While not checking the lawn for rocks is a accident. Shooting a gun blindly is a crime.

PEOPLE DIE EVERY HOUR OF EVERY DAY, INTENTIONALLY. Wheres your righteous indignation about them?

So because people die every day and nothing can be done about it, everyone who negligently causes a death should get off scot free. That's your logic? Maybe we should just let people drive drunk too, right? Oh wait. Maybe they can only drive drunk in a low population area, ehh? I wonder what you would think if it was your kid that died. Do you have kids?

Muzzle loaders usually have a heck of a kick. He could have been aiming at a tree or some other object to empty it and simply have missed. Shooting into the ground can have some bad repercussions as well if there is something hard enough for the bullet to bounce off of.

We definitely have an out of whack society when it comes to accidents. Let's face it, all accidents are 100% avoidable in hindsight, yet not so in reality. Look at what we've done with the anti drunk driving laws. If a man is driving with alcohol in his system, below the legal limit, he is following all of the laws, proper speed, not swerving, and is complete control of the vehicle, but, he is hit head on by someone who fell asleep while driving then crossed into his lane, and there are fatalities, the man who was drinking will be charged with manslaughter.

What law that's ever been passed has been able to really stop someone from dying? This is a horrible tragedy nothing more.

Good info, well stated. I wish half the posts here were that well written.

Tragic accident, regardless- stupidity often results in disaster, even if you do get away with it the first few times. You have to wonder how many times he'd done this in the past before he killed someone.

My condolences to the family, and my sympathies.

Azrancher...

I'm NOT 100% sure, but I believe the Austrailian record was bested by a US troop, Army or USMC, I forget, but I believe the Aussie was bested by an additional 100m or thereabouts.

I'll get back at ya if I can dig up the info.

Actually, it was a British soldier who currently holds the longest documented shot, but he didn't beat the one in Afghanistan by much and I don't think it was that long ago either. I believe it was at the tail end of the 'Iraq Combat operations'.

He was using an Accuracy International L115A3 and hit two Taliban with consecutive shots at a distance of almost 2.5 kilometers (That's a little over 8000 ft or 1.54'ish miles).

As far as the Amish girl being shot in the head is concerned, that's easily one of the worst cases of misfortune that i've ever heard of. The fact that it was done with a muzzle loader is rather mind boggling. o

It's all speculation until the ballistics report is completed.

A 50 cal high velocity dedicated sniper round is precisely aimed with all factors (wind, drag, etc) figured into the equation and has the muscle to kill at significant range. I find it hard to believe a muzzle loader slug "rainbowed" into the air by an irresponsible idiot cleaning his weapon, would have sufficient killing power at 1.5 miles unless it was one hell of a muzzle loader and he fired it with the barrel pointed a lot closer to the horizontal. The article states no holes in the buggy canopy. I live in an area with a significant Amish population and. Their buggy canopies have a fairly good overhang. To get under a canopy like that the bullet would have to have had a flatter trajectory then one usually associated with a pot shot up into the blue.

all this talk of how far this or that sniper could hit a target is beside the point.

Basic physic. a 22 long rifle bullet will carry over two miles if elevated to maxim. Fire into the air any gun and the bullet is going to return to earth and accelerate at 32 ft per sec until it reachs termal velicity. Shoot something high enough and it will return to earth faster than it went up. This bullet must likely hit the girl at three to four times the force it was fired with.

Wow, Gray beard, go take a class or at least Google your fiction before you try to post it as fact. Your average 50 cal. bullet shot from a muzzle loader will have a muzzle velocity of at least 1100 fps and as much as 2000 fps depending on the specifics of the load. Average it out at 1500 fps and compare that to the terminal velocity of a falling bullet at around 300 fps. It's not impossible to cause a fatality from the falling bullet, but...

"This bullet must likely hit the girl at three to four times the force it was fired with."

C'mon Man!!

I refute that claim:

"The longest range recorded for a sniper kill currently stands at 2,475 m (2,707 yd) and was achieved by CoH Craig Harrison, a sniper from the Household Cavalry of the British Army. It was accomplished in an engagement in November 2009 in which two stationary Taliban machine gunners were killed south of Musa Qala in Helmand Province in Afghanistan with two consecutive shots by CoH Harrison using an Accuracy International L115A3 Long Range Rifle chambered in .338 Lapua Magnum"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper

thats 8121 feet

A102ndy:

I stand by my facts. Basic high school physic. Try taken a basic hunter saftey couse and get you facts stright before you post. A sky diver hits terrimal velicity at 900 ft per sec and he has a heck of alot of more drag than a bullet.

Ye gods, Gray Beard....perpetual motion doesn't work. That's what you just proposed- that a bullet fired up can arrive with more energy than it left the muzzle with- despite air friction.

This is how it actually works:

Assume an object is fired into a perfect vacuum from the surface of an object at a speed below escape velocity. The energy on return to the surface is exactly what it left with- plus or minus any accelerational changes caused by differences in altitude at the site of impact.

For further enlightenment on the basics, look into something called the "Coriolis effect"- which describes why artillery tables are so important when lobbing shells in any direction but spinward or anti-spinward- i.e. approximately "East" or "West".

Modern computer-controlled artillery automatically compensates- and some can even do something quite amazing- firing multiple shells on different trajectories at the same target- so they all arrive at the same time. Five howitzer tanks can now accomplish the same barrage once requiring an artillery park- and scoot to a new position before the return barrage arrives.

note that he used American ammunition he readily stated he may not have made the shot with the British amo provided.

Addendum for Gray Beard: at very high altitude, terminal velocity while falling is higher due to lower air density- and less friction. Terminal velocity drops as one approaches the ground. On average, terminal velocity is closer to 200 mph. There was one incident I'm aware of where a man hit 614 mph in free fall- but he was falling from over 100,000 feet in altitude, with a 60 lb breathing rig and an aerodynamic suit. As he approached the surface, his terminal velocity dropped. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity

Look. It's no sin to be ignorant- that's correctable. Being so arrogant that you can't learn is another matter entirely. Work on that....

I've been a hunter for many years and I always did well in school. Since you seem to have a hard time grasping the science behind the truth I went ahead and did what I suggested you do in the first place.. I Googled it. Here is a very well written section from one of the sites that discusses the reason in more detail. Listen, don't be offended, try to learn something. There's enough negativity in the world already.

"Gravity will be speeding up the bullet 32 feet per second every second, but friction will be increasing more and more as the bullet speeds up, and this friction will subtract from that 32. There is a certain velocity when the friction is equal to the gravity in the opposite direction. At this point, the frictional acceleration is 32 feet per second every second upward (or -32), while the gravitational acceleration is 32 feet per second every second downward (+32). From now on, the bullet will have no acceleration at all (32 - 32 = 0). When this happens, the velocity of the bullet is called its "terminal velocity." The bullet will continue at the same velocity until it hits the ground or some object.

This terminal velocity is different depending mostly on two things. 1. The density of the thing that is falling. 2. The shape of the thing that is falling. Bullets are very dense (usually lead), and they have a shape to allow relatively low friction. The terminal velocity of a feather may be only 2 feet per second because of its shape and density, but the terminal velocity of a bullet could be 300 or 400 feet per second"

Iron Oxide Dreams, very well put.

Thanks. God only knows I'm ignorant in a lot of venues myself- but I do try to listen when someone demonstrates it to me. Denial doesn't correct ignorance- it just makes it personal. That was no fun to learn.

actually... The longest range recorded for a sniper kill currently stands at 2,475 m (2,707 yd) and was achieved by CoH Craig Harrison, a sniper from the Household Cavalry of the British Army.

Grey Beard;

I suggest a brush up on your physic's. This bullet left the muzzle at around 1200-1300 fps depending on propellent load. It slows to nearly zero before arching over and falling back to earth. The fastest any object can fall through the atmosphere is 157.55 mph. as that is the point and which gravitational acceleration and air resistance equalize. FALL, not enter at 15,000 mph like the shuttle of a meteor. bullets are not under power, they are accelerated by rapidly expanding propellant, in this case black powder. Once they exit the muzzle the pressure is gone and they immediately begin to decelerate. If you drop a 1 oz ball and a 10 pound ball from the same height and the same time, they both hit the ground at the same time. That's physics, my friend. And I have all the data to prove it. I've been a custom gun smith for over forty years and have degree's in both internal and external ballistics. Nice try, but I ain't buying.

A102ndyh;

You fail to take into account the fact that once a bullet slows to a certain point, usually just under half it's original velocity and loses it rotation , it becomes unstable and tumbles. Muzzle loader bullets are far less aerodynamic than their modern cartridge counter parts to begin with, so destabilization occurs much faster. Tumbling increases their aerodynamic cross section and thus increases drag exponentially. So your blanket assertions of bullets in invalid. All testes I have seen and conducted with balls and mini balls fired at 70 degrees vertical all return at or below 157.55mph, terminal velocity.

Actually, it was a British soldier who currently holds the longest documented shot, but he didn't beat the one in Afghanistan by much and I don't think it was that long ago either. I believe it was at the tail end of the 'Iraq Combat operations'.

Yeah but the best sniper is clearly the Finnish dude who sniped like 500 guys and killed 200 more all in just a few months.

Sniping is a game of opportunity. At some point, someone will eclipse this record. Look how long Carlos Hathcock's record stood and he was using a 30-06 not a fifty.

30-06? I thought it was a .308. Well, no matter, he was one hell of a shot whatever he used.

Nicodemus (4.19)

Carlos Hathcock normally used a 30-06 but his record shot of 2500 yards was done with a M-2 Browning machine gun with an improvised scope mount. See SNIPER by Martin Pegler page 211. Also all the assertions that black powder firearms from the nineteenth century were not capable of long range shots should look into any number of records of sniping during the Civil War. President Lincoln was shot at repeatedly while he walk around the capital dome while it was under construction.

yeah, "Rest in Peace, young Lady!" too bad you had to die as collateral damage for the NRA's perpetual lobbying of liberal gun ownership in this country -- everything i, ed pinson, wanted to say but didn't have the courage to.

gordonlee-

How many lives have been SAVED by the gun ownership in this country by law abiding citizens?

akdart(dot)com/gun3(dot)html

Opinions are like bungholes. Every keg has one.

Here ladies and gentlemen is the quintessential moron! He just identified himself ... whomever you are just shut up. Say a prayer for the family ... say a prayer for the girl if you wish. Say a prayer for America, that's all well and good but just shut the f*** up with your rhetoric. This has nothing to do with the NRA, or gun rights, or the 2nd amendment ... so it is just you.

gordonlee,

you're an idiot. gun ownership has nothing to do with NRA lobbying. it has to do with the founding fathers and them envisioning a populace that could defend themselves from abroad and within.

obviously times have changed since 1770's, however, now more than ever i am compelled to go out and buy a firearm for protection because of how close we were to financial meltdown a few years ago and i don't see it getting any better with the idiots we've voted into washington.

Gordonlee.......The NRA supports firearms rights, in most states this does not include black powder muzzle loading weapons as they are not considered firearms.

So they would not apply. Your either grossly misinformed or just like using unfortunate and sad stories to promote your anti constitution views??????

I can see that all the city boys who can't understand why country boys own guns are assuming that the 911 call is answered by somebody 2 blocks away not 20 miles away have all the answers. What do you do when you walk outside and find a rabid animal in your backyard? Or a badger in your hen house area?

gordon...I don't care for the NRA either, but they have nothing to do with this.

Azrancher: you need to PLEASE stop spewing your nonsense. This is the second time that you have posted that muzzleloaders are not firearms. That is patently false.

• Muzzleloaders may receive special classification for hunting, or as antiques.
• They may be registered differently, and they may be taxed differently, depending on what state you are in.
• They may also be subject to different regulations depending on whether they are sold ready-to-use or as kits to be assembled.

But rest assured that muzzleloaders are firearms and that they are not exempted or excluded from advocacy by the NRA or consideration under the Second Ammendment. In fact, genius, please consider this: at the time the framers of the constitution were considering our right to bear arms, muzzleloaders were the only firearms in existence. Nothing has occurred constitutionally in the last 200+ years that would change this.

@ GordonLee: If guns kill people, mine are all defective.

Sorry Gordon, democratic consensus overwhelmingly dictates that you please take your soap box and go lecture someone who cares for anti-freedoms rhetoric. Try Sara Brady of Hilary Clinton, two fellow elitists. I happen to have a DPMS A-4 assault rifle right next to me. It has never taken a life in the decade I've owned it. It never will unless some lawless fool intent on harming my family happens to force his/her way in to my home. Take your agenda where it might be welcome. Say...Great Britain?

LVinWC, AZrancher is twisting a fact, not pulling his words out of no where. It IS true that any gun of a design more than 100 years old is not "considered a firearm", but ONLY in that it may be bought and shipped to a non FFL holder. YOU, however, are right. Basic rule of thumb: if it goes "BOOM" and a projectile zips out one end, it's a gun. Walks like a duck. Quacks like a duck. Tastes like a duck...

LVinWC (5.9)

Not quite the Ferguson rifle, a breech loader, used by the British during the American War of Independence. Firearms manufactured during or before the nineteen century are normally classified antiques.

A very thin explanation was that he was trying to unload it - but there's no reason he couldn't have used an extractor. That's why they exist - it may be a little more dangerous for the shooter than discharging the round, but a heck of a lot safer for that girl. I agree with you - he's a criminally negligent idiot, and no black powder cleaning regimen I know starts with blowing off a round. They all start with "make sure the gun is unloaded" not "shoot the thing into nowhere and make sure it's empty."

Ronster // Houston... don't prejudge.

I know that from an unfortunate experience with a black powder revolver.

Words look familiar? You know as well as I do that accidents do in fact happen. As anyone who handles a gun knows, you treat EVERY ONE of them as if they're loaded.

I know I do, and I'm sure others do also, including my brother, who ALWAYS stores his guns unloaded when he comes back from the range... at least until the one day he put a hole in a basement door from his unloaded 357. BIG OOP's. The first and only time he's put any revolver in the safe with the wheel closed.

My unfortunate incident was a black powder revolver going off in the holster with the hammer down on a percussion cap on a loaded cylinder. It went off untouched just from the pressure of the hammer on an apparently too hot cap. If he was an idiot and kept a muzzle loader around loaded and wanted to check to see if it still was prior to cleaning, he should have fired it into a safe location, never into the air. No prejudgement involved, just an opinion on what was obviously an unsafe act.

In the holster... bet THAT was a reason for a shorts change!! Hopefully you weren't hurt.

I know.. to say it was unsafe is an understatement.

The first thing I do when I get something out of the safe is double check to make sure I had put it away unloaded.

And I do the same when in the field going out or coming back.

Of course I have two loaded all the time. My prime and backup carry. But they're NOT blackpowder, and I know where they are at all times. Safely in their holsters unless on the range.

I've hunted with black powder many times. And reading through this thread shows how clueless many of you are about operating a traditional black powder muzzle loader.

This guy was an idiot for firing it into the air, that much is clear and it cost some girl her life.

I always discharged the rifle into the ground prior to leaving the field and cleaned it immediately afterwards. You don't want to leave a load in one for safety's sake and in case the temperature changes enough to condensate moisture on the powder to cause a misfire. This is true whether you are firing ball and patch with black powder to a modern sabot with Pyrodex pellets.

Besides, both black power and Pyrodex are extremely caustic. If you are not using a stainless barrel gun it will eat up the barrel in short order and diminish the gun's accuracy.

It's far safer to fire the round off than trying to extract it out of a muzzle loader. In fact the first thing you do if you have to extract a bullet from a muzzle loader is remove the barrel, the nipple and then soak the breech in water for 24 hours to ensure no dry power is left in the barrel that could accidently ignite. I doubt 1 out of 10 muzzle loader owners even own a bullet extractor.

If you have been firing muzzle loaders that long than you know it's far safer to discharge the gun than to try and extract the round. Where he shot was negligence but definetely doesn't warrent manslaughter.

Or perhaps it wasn't actually the bullet from the muzzle loader that killed the girl.

Or perhaps it wasn't actually the bullet from the muzzle loader that killed the girl.

There was another guy on the grassy knoll........

I am just thinking what if the horse had taken a couple more steps, if the man had fired a minute or even seconds later. This is tragic and the most freakish "accident" imaginable.

There are "NO ACCIDENTS". All "accidents" are somehow related to someone's "human error". About the only accident otherwise is the chance to be hit by a meteorite. Even being hit by lightning isn't an accident. Lightning can kill you from ten or more miles away from the storm. Prudence is that you take shelter before being a victim. If you are hit you were not taking precautions as you should have. Thus "human error".

“When it's your time, it's your time’? How thoughtless, insensitive, and disingenuous your sympathy. This was a negligent, preventable accident. It was not her time.

I think by accident, they mean unintended, not unpreventable. I imagine the insurance people would tell us that recklessness, foolishness, ignorance, inexperience, haste, incompetence, distraction, and inattention cause accidents. Thus, as Cherokee says, "human error."

Cherokee, accidents are human error. They are one and the same. Being hit by a meteor is not an accident, it's an act of God, meaning it's a natural occurrence.

Definition of accident: an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss.

The shooting was an accident. And contrary to what some people say, there will always be accidents. People aren't machines. They commit human error and do stupid things, both that could result in an accident.

And just for the record, a gun can be safely fired into the air. As long as it's perfectly straight up. The bullet would fall back down harmlessly without enough force to hurt someone even if it landed on their head. Mythbusters proved it. I'm not saying anyone should do it, just pointing out the physics of it.

Gordon...GordonGordonGordon...twist things much? Cmongo was stating in a simple manner that when the Lord calls you home, one way or another, you're going home. Perhaps this young lady was needed to serve something far higher. Let the man have his sentiment in his own way. It was NOT meant belligerently.

Roodles. Yeah. Mythbusters. I love the show. I do NOT take their conclusions as gospel. NO DISCHARGE IN TO THE AIR IS SAFE. I watched personally as a 12 gauge slug (standard 1 1/8 ounce, foster type, roll crimped factory Remington) fired straight up pierce the roof and floor board on a standard F-150 pickup.

mojo...

all I can say is... WTF????

9MM - in response to his "criminally negligent" remark. it was an accident by all accounts in the report.

mojo7:

You do understand the meaning of the word "negligent," don't you?

mojo... ok.. you confused an old guy thats all..

mojo: Make that two old guys:

"The Amish are known for violence or car accidents which kill over 30,000 people a year in this country."

I don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about. The Amish are, of course, famously nonviolent and non-car-driving people.

BS. He was cleaning the gun and it accidentally went off. Don't trya and make it something it is not

One there are no accidents when clean firearms. The only way for a a gun to go off and kill some one there first has to be a idiot ignoreing about dozen basic safety rules.

mojo needs to learn the difference between murder and manslaughter. If we were to follow mojo's logic, there would be no such thing as manslaughter.

-

I have always worked under the premise that a "Negligent" discharge was when the operator negligently operates or handles a firearm resulting in its discharge.

An "accidental" discharge is when there is a mechanical failure within the weapon causing it to discharge without any action from the operator.

Originally many departments and the military refered to them all as "AD's" or accidental.

There are "NO ACCIDENTS". All "accidents" are somehow related to someone's "human error".

What if a meteor hits you?

The guy who said that is very selective in HIS definition of "accident", and the context in which the word is used.

That's right Spike, it is HIS definition, but for the most part his thinking is right. My wife had a wreck on black ice once, no injuries but major damage to hers' and the other truck. The dept. of highways was informed of this piece of road 90 minutes earlier, by a state cop who is a friend of mine, and the DOH even though they had trucks in the vicinity chose to let the drivers finish the back roads they were plowing before they dispatched someone to treat it. Back then (1985) we called it an accident, today I know it as human stupidity. I called the dispatcher when I got all the details and to this day am not proud of the things I said to him. Every winter we have wrecks and some deaths even when the weather forcasters say the situation for certain sections of road (ridge tops etc.) to ice over are possible. Here is a link to a wreck that made TV and newspapers in several states.

http://www.mahalo.com/william-d-proudfoot/ The weather forcasters had warned of it hours before, but dispatchers were asleep. No accident.

Only if you don't want to shoot youself or someone else.

Well, the first step in cleaning a weapon is to "make sure it is unloaded". He chose to do that in an unsafe manner.

In this paragraph the writer was referring to a shooting where the gunman killed himself after shooting the schoolgirls. Apparently not everyone reads the article before commenting. Not trying to be a jerk, just a smart a$$.

They were speaking of the shooting at the school in PA a few years back. The man killed himself after killing the school children and the Amish reached out to the gunman's widow. Reading comprehension is a must.

The "odds" are irrelevant. It was irresponsible and criminally neglegent.

What about hunting water fowl? Geese, ducks, ect. It REQUIRES discharging a firearm into the air. It's not illegal. Why? Because the ODDS of harming anyone by doing so are so great, it doesn't make sense to disallow it. The odds are always relevant. If the odds are that something can be reasonably expected to cause harm, it is not allowed. Or should we just ban everything that could POSSIBLY be harmful, no matter what the odds?

When you are hunting water fowl you use don't use a bullet like the what the black powder rifle uses. You would use a shotgun with a shell that has shot in it. The only way that would shoot something 1.5 miles away is if you drove 1.3 miles and then shot it.

What about hunting water fowl? Geese, ducks, ect. It REQUIRES discharging a firearm into the air. It's not illegal. Why? Because the ODDS of harming anyone by doing so are so great, it doesn't make sense to disallow it.

Spoke like some one that know s nothinga bout firer arms.

One shotguns shells don't have the power to send the shot high enough for the returning pellets to ahve enough force to cause harm. The pellets spread out so much if soem one does get hit it is one or two pellets with about the force of hail.

Two: You are still lable for the discharge if they are people or animals are in the fall out area.

Based on this story, and that poor girl's death, the odds are 100%...and conscientious gun owners actually behave as if that weren't the idiotic statement it is!

Thats why there is a differnce between "bird shot", "buckshot" and Bullets.

Different ammunition for different usages and safety. Even then intelligent and responsible hunters would not fire into the air at waterfowl or game birds if others were within site down range.

Irresponsibility is a human aspect, not a mechanical one.

clay i see your still out here trying to make friends all though I agree with you when your right your right you just come off like someone born in 1935 remember attack there point of veiw and not the person. play nice with others that way you dont come off like a mean old man. and i dont mean this post i saw the whole string remember they are young people they dont have half the info you do and what they do know they see it from a different time.

" A densely populated state like Ohio"

We're not talking about downtown Cleveland where, by the way, far more bullets are probably fired into the air without incident. And, yes, of course you don't clean a gun until it's unloaded, which is why he fired it, to unload it.

And no one said it was an accidental discharge while cleaning. It was an intentional discharge, to clear the weapon, for safe cleaning and storage after a day of hunting.

The most practical way to clear a muzzleloader is to fire it. There are other ways to clear the weapon, but those ways are inherently more dangerous and far less practical than firing the weapon in an accepted safe manner (backstop, bullet trap, soft ground). In this case it appears that the hunter chose to perform a "safe" task in un unsafe manner, discharging the weapon in a direction where he was unsure of what was downrange.

Those that fire weapons into the air on New Years Eve only do so to celebrate. That should be ok, right?

No, I'm not against guns...I am for responsibility. Irresponsibility kills.

But the guy could have honestly been trying to clean his weapon and had no ill intent planned in this tragic accident.

Bullsnot.

IF he really did 'fire it to clear it' before cleaning and did so in an unsafe manner, then he was intentionally negligent.

Let's stop giving excuses for the blatant stupidity of gun owners. You wouldn't say that a drunk driver 'didn't mean to run her over and kill her' would you? You'd rant about how stupid the idiot was. Why are you even thinking about giving this guy a free pass for killing someone?

We have laws to punish those who are so irrresponsible and negligent as to cause the death of another person for everything except guns. There we say 'accidental death'.

It's time we grow up and treat these situations the way we treat drunk driving and any other intentionally negligent act. CRIMINAL PROSECUTION.

If I dared do what this clown did, my senior drill instructor would climb out of his grave and hunt me down. He'd be punishing me in the 'pit' for all eternity for being as stupid as this guy was.

Jim... I thank you for the info. I don't know that much about black powder firearms and therefore stay away from them. I own a couple of 'antiques', or at least thats what the shop owner said when I bought them quite some years ago. But they're just hanging on a wall. I DID cock and "fire" both a few times in the back yard pointed into the mulch pile when I got them so I'm ASSUMING they're not loaded. However, with what you just said, I think I'll take them down and have someone who knows them to take a look.... just to play it safe.

But as others have noted.... to clear ANY firearm in an unsafe direction is beyond stupidity.. it's negligent.

I am suspecting that the "Sgt" is a nom de guere for an anti gun troll. I'll check with my Marine Corps friends about this and apologise if I am wrong, but I don't think they train you in the Corps to call it a "gun". It is your weapon. And most shooters and pro gun folks I know would use the word "firearm" instead of just "gun".

In any event, I - nor you - know anything about the fellow. We are not talking about a sober person who chooses to drink, and drink, and get behind the wheel. Fore all we know this guy would otherwise be the most level headed man since Solomon, and had one tragic lapse in judgment.

I am NOT giving the guy a free pass. I would need to know much more about the person to make a judgement about whether this was an astronomical accident, or callous disregard for safe handling of a firearm.

XDM... good idea to take it to a shop. If anyone else inherits a flint lock or percussion cap rifle or shotgun, it very well could have powder and ball in it, even if it has been hanging on a wall or in grandpa's closet.

A quick check is to first, make sure there is no brass "percussion cap" down where the hammer would fall on it, or if a flintlock, raise the frizzen and make sure there is no powder in the pan. If you are lucky, you have a ramrod. use that to try to touch the bottom of the barrel. If it is empty, you should be able to get a <ping> when you hit bottom. If it goes <thud>, then mark the ramrod where the end of the muzzle comes, then pull the rod and hold it next to the outside of the barrel. If it looks like it is shorter than where the end of the breech is, then likely it has a ball there.

Heat up some water to boiling. Pour it int he barrel and shake. The dump the water. DO it for a kettles worth of water. Then try to hear the <ping> of the ramrod again. If you hear it, it is clear. Finish cleaning and oiling the weapon. If you keep hearing the <thud> and are unfamiliar with how to pull a ball with a worm, take it to a gunsmith.

@FormerMarineSgt,

There is no such thing as a "former Marine".

That is all.

Hadn't read your post yet when I posted mine. Same words.

Why is it so few understand physics?

Why is it so few understand physics?

Because it's a gun.

People understand the physics of cause and effect for drunk driving and so many more other irresponsible and negligent acts, but when it comes to guns - we don't dare punish people the same way!!! We have to call these 'accidental deaths' like we used to do for the victims of drunk drivers.

I'm pro-gun, pro-second amendment and I hate that gun owners can get away with this kind of stupidity without even getting a slap on the wrist.

I have never been pro-gun, but I respect other people's rights to own them. However, I think that in order to be a gun owner, that all responsibilty for any "accidents" that occur, should be the legal responsibility of said gun owner. I think that in the long run, it might make some of these idiots a little more careful. Yes, the odds are slim that this would happen, but if it was written into law, maybe gun owners would be more cautions of what "could" happen whatever the odds my be.

Isn't "intentional negligence" an oxymoron? Before anybody on this list judges someone you don't even know, you should be ready to weigh the facts. The jury and judge will decide how much punnishment is warrented to serve justice.

I'm with you, Marine. I view a gun much the same way I view a vehicle. They are deadly when their risks are not fully appreciated. The fact that an irresponsible driver can kill somebody does not cause the rest of us to call for a ban on cars. But it does mean that the driver is liable for manslaughter. He doesn't just get off because it was an accident.

Sarge: You go! My grand dad would have beat me sensely and taken my guns away if I had broken the basic gun safety rules he pass on to me.

I'm with you 100% its the Right to Bare arms without first useing your Brain crowd that are the real threat to gun ownership in this country. People stop defend the stuipd people that get us all in trouble. Next time your at the gun show yell at the idiots pointing guns every direction. Demend that the show ownwers in force the OPEN action carry at the show. Ther are seveal shows here in Ohio that don't and I have seen loaded firearms carryed in. I refuse to attend those shows and would work to get them shut down in a second. All it would take is one "Opps did not know it was loaded" and the anti gun nuts would get all thew shows shut down.

I hate to be the grammar police but I'm seeing this a lot in the comments: it's not the right to BARE arms, it's the right to BEAR arms. Our forefathers did not give their lives to preserve our right to wear short sleeves!

My employer requires us to wear long sleeves...so I had to give up my right to bare arms....

@Barry - and yet, ironically, we do have that right <grin> (but I know exactly what you mean about the horrible grammer of most posters...)

Just want to take a moment to point out for those who don't know already, Greybeard, I seriously doubt that you have ever handled a firearm, or attended a high school physics class. Your ignorance is amazing, as is your grammar and spelling. Go back to sleep. Anyone who knows anything about ballistics and firearms knows that to make a shot like this with the best of modern equipment is beyond the abilities of all but a few of the best shooters. To have it happen by accident with a muzzle loading rifle is beyond belief. I would be very surprised if it turns out that the bullet that killed this young lady came from the gun and range in question. Impossible? No, but highly improbable. And Sarge, how many people die each year from auto "accidents" Same rule applies. There are no accidents. There are errors in judgement, mistakes, and down right stupidity. Why would you hold a responsible gun owner to a higher standard than you would any person driving on our nations highways.

These are the kids taught by the teachers to busy being PC police to teach spelling.

Oh yeah Marine, since she was 1.5 miles away I'm sure that he intended to kill her!! Oh yeah...that's it, yeah,.. you are right on!!! Yeah! Accidents NEVER happen. Get off it folks you can yammer all you want about gun safety, you can be as safe as you can possibly be and STILL HAVE AN ACCIDENT...

so yeah, send this horrible person off to prison, take his land and his money because that way he'll learn a LESSON and you'll feel better, vindicated, revenged! Yeah....do it now!

Grandma J, you're trying to use semantics to support your argument, and you're doing it very poorly. Please, for you and all the others trying to make the same insipid point by calling this an accident: there is a huge difference between an "accident" and an "unintended outcome." While the outcome in this incident was indeed unintended, as the person behind the trigger made a decision to clear his weapon in an unsafe manner, that is de facto not an accident.

And, lonereb, before you call out others for their lack of spelling ability, you may want to learn the difference between "to" and "too."

Amen. Give me an entire lifetime and I would never have been able to say it better...

Perhaps that concept isn't so simple for some. I'm sure that most who fire weapons into the air rely on the fact that they'll never hear about the 'come down' part.

I lost a rear window one New Year's Eve to a bullet. Fortunately, it hit my car instead of the many people around it. In filing the police report I was told that they'd never be able to find the shooter's direction, etc. I still have that bullet.

That always amused me at countries involved in the Arab Spring. They would fire guns, lots of guns, straight up. Does nobody understand it comes back down with a force to kill? You celebrate by killing people?

Think Darwin Awards, LB.

no one is asking you to "buy it".

The real world is NOT the movies or TV.

By your reasoning, everything will continually be "investigated" as you'll need to investigate everyone involved with the investigation and everyone investigating them to make sure no one is related to, or involved with, or ..................

Paranoia at it's finest. Want to know why dexter (which by the way, choosing a serial killer as an example isn't the best choice) and CSI are shows? Because they are fiction - nothing more than stories for the imagination. If half of the things they do in those shows were real, cold cases would be almost unheard of.

sospicious: From a mile and a half away? With a muzzleloader? And with one shot? On a moving target? I don't believe there is a black powder marksman in the country who's that good!

He wasn't aiming at her , read the article. He was clearing a load from his black powder rifle and fired in the into the sky. Weather a black powder has that range will be determined by investigation.

"Illicet?" "Sexual"?

Ran out of meds again? You know that the doctor says you can NOT afford to do that...

I can tell your another city boy. In rural areas everybody knows everybody for at least 3 miles around. They are your next door neighbors if you own 500 acres of fields. You recognize the dog of the guy 2 miles away when it shows up at your house. The families probably know each other to nod to or wave at.

Shooting into the air is not an error or mistake, rather it is inbred ignorance and stupidity at best.

I've made a few errors in judgement Spike, nothing this stupid.