The Pakistanis are realizing the United States is leaving Afghanistan, and along with the departure so goes the Pakistanis Sugary Daddy money for its military, and much of the humanitarian aid.

So what better way to try to guilt the United States, and the rest of the West into continuing to send Pakistan the Sugar Daddy money then to provoke a fight, get their butts whipped, then run crying like they were innocents just happened to be standing exactly were the shells came from. Nobody’s buying it.

This is the level of maturity our diplomats face all over the region.

The bottom line is the Pakistanis have been lobbing shells over the boarder at villages in Afghanistan for months, and this time they got a response.

If the Afghans are now saying they are afraid of the very same Pakistanis they just told the world they would support in a war if the US attacked Pakistan, then I say too bad.

The US is leaving Afghanistan, the Pakistanis will then go back to provoking India their traditional propaganda tool again, and Afghan has nothing the Pakistanis could not have had in the recent past before the US arrived.

The sooner we leave these violent immature maniacs to their own devices the better.

Stop engaging, and put all efforts into leaving with as few US, and NATO casualties as possible.

As much as I would like to agree with LetMeExplain I say F... Em All and F...ing No Regrets. And as for Jim in Dallas, I agree If you mess with the Best ..Die like the rest.

Jim ... If there ever was a sure way to Armageddon, bombing Pakistan on purpose would be very high on the list. Pakistan is what many Muslim Nations are striving to become. The moment the US or NATO or whomever attacks Pakistan in an aggressive war waging manner will be contrived by their best propaganda people accusing us of waging a Crusade against the Muslim faith... In other words, they'll go nuts all over the planet and start murdering at will.

To me Pakistan is a catch 22... If you wage direct war and obviate their ability to do the same... other more radical Nations will in turn attack by any means they can muster. The other side of that coin is what happens if you do nothing? Which I believe is just as dangerous. Pakistan is a relic to the USA. They are a Nation we needed to keep the Soviet Union by placing medium range missile's and medium Bombers (F-111's) were kept as a "Front Line" against the Soviet Machine.

Here's the twist... we no longer NEED to keep planes there, nor do we need to place missile missiles there. But... we still appropriate... $$Millions$$... to Pakistan just as if it were 1949-1990. So then you go to sanction's against them... Never has worked in the past... why would it now? Should the USA cut political ties and stop feeding their people and arming there army's.. they would run to Russia, China or anywhere else they could sell there VERY strategic location to. Can you imagine a few thousand Chinese bombers, and Missile's in that region..?

As much as I would LOVE to blame this ridiculous administration created by Obama for what is happening... I cannot. The Pakistan situation goes back decades (and will die hard), Mainly because nearly every avenue of action leads to a bad situation for the US. I would say that Pakistan is one of the few (if not the only) Nations that have created for themselves a very nice niche in the matters of global policy. They play their hand well. By keeping low to medium strength sanctions against them, we are making our point, hurting them where it counts, but also keeping them firmly on a leash... the leash that keeps the from doing anything stupid.

Pakistan's day of judgement will come... That does not worry me. what DOES worry me is that a Nation can only ride the fence for so long before there people lash out demanding they either wage war... or support peace. That is where the USA is standing right now. This very blog will prove that a hundred times.. people calling for war and other praying for peace.

Like I said... Pakistan is a catch 22 no matter how you slice it.

Sandtrich - the FACTS are that the Pakistani military shot at Afghan and NATO troops across the border into Afghanistan. NATO returned fire. Just because the return fire was larger than the initial fire does not mean that NATO is at fault.

I take this news story as more of Pakistan whining because they are unable to do anything competently. It is like the story of someone taking a knife to a gunfight.

If the Pakistan Army does not want to die, then perhaps they should not start shooting across the border. It is not the job of the NATO forces to be targets for Pakistani agressors. Time for NATO to push the Pakistan border back about 100 miles. This would create a 100 mile wide buffer zone. Anyone from Pakistan inside it should be exterminated. This would stop the cowardly shooting across the Pakistan border.

NATO has described the incident as "tragic and unintended" and has promised a full investigation

Just as Pakistan "investigates" every time that an American is killed in that desolated land. We should demand the same treatment. This is a lot of noise just to get money.

I would not be surprised if they initiated the attack themselves just to get $$$$$

Pakistan is very aware of the games the US and Russia have played in the ME for decades now, as they are aware that eventually the US will leave and they've been able to take our $$ but also have had to play nice with those we deem 'terrorists' as that is what they'll be left with.

Full scale bomb 'em to heck and back doesn't work politically, and nothing short of doing such in regions where terrorists are known to be isn't going to work. It's lose - lose; for them and for our supposed efforts. If we were indeed in or out, or they indeed are genuous and in or out, a different story; as it stands and has stood, it's a losing stalemate....

We should stop all aid money to Pakistan and stop issuing Visas for the Pakis to come here. No more money and no more Visas. Close the consulates. See 2 March 2006, Karachi.

Pakistan allows cross-border attacks but do not allow US or Afghan forces to pursue the aggressors back into Pakistan. Yet they do nothing to stop the cross-border attacks and at times lends aid to the militants. We should tell Pakistan to shut the hell up or so something about the Taliban themselves in the border region. We should conduct at will attacks of the aggressors inside Pakistan and deny them sanctuary there. If Pakistani aircraft try to interfere, shoot the damn Paki aircraft down. Allowing attackers sanctuary inside Pakistan is bull@!$%#.

How come the headline doesn't read, "US Troops attacked by Pakistani Forces" ?

Unnamed Afghan officials told the Associated Press that Afghan commandos and U.S. special forces were conducting a mission on the Afghan side of the border and received incoming fire from the direction of the Pakistani posts. They responded with airstrikes.

Regardless, it's time for the US to pack up and come home.

LetMeExplain - great post!

Sandtrich - Careful bigot boy, you are using pronouns that do not apply. You are clearly a Pakistani. And for your information, NATO does not mean USA.

Go back to your cave and join your fellow muslim fundamentalists in molesting your boy children. War is ugly. If you don't like the result, then perhaps you should consider this next time you choose to fight.

And your country is not a boogieman - it is a spineless country that has a problem with telling the truth. This is cultural with your country and your religion.

Either choose to change (in other words - come out of the 9th century and join the 21st) or deal with the consequences. I, personally, do not have any qualms with enabling you and your lunatic friends to meet Allah - so that you can explain your perverted actions to him.

Yes, all troops out now. But leave the most effective deterrent - the drones.

interested observer
Sandtrich - Careful bigot boy, you are using pronouns that do not apply. You are clearly a Pakistani. And for your information, NATO does not mean USA.

Go back to your cave and join your fellow muslim fundamentalists in molesting your boy children. War is ugly. If you don't like the result, then perhaps you should consider this next time you choose to fight.

And your country is not a boogieman - it is a spineless country that has a problem with telling the truth. This is cultural with your country and your religion.

Either choose to change (in other words - come out of the 9th century and join the 21st) or deal with the consequences. I, personally, do not have any qualms with enabling you and your lunatic friends to meet Allah - so that you can explain your perverted actions to him.

An agnostic organic avocado farmer from Hawaii is a "muslim fundamentalist"? You're a vile fellow----war, war, war--that's all "you people" want. Ah--the American Taliban in action!

Sandtrich - the FACTS are that the Pakistani military shot at Afghan and NATO troops across the border into Afghanistan. NATO returned fire. Just because the return fire was larger than the initial fire does not mean that NATO is at fault.

Moron, you need a towel to dry behind your ears with. Where did it say anywhere that it was the Paki military who started firing? Where? You ASSUMED it was them because they took the fire. You didn't check your facts at all, you just got on here and started calling people names. You have zero credibility. Your comments are not worth the time to read them and you are taking up way too much space and air for such a small mind. Go back to Faux Online they like people who accuse first, call names, and act like the juvenile that you are.

You like that? Then do not treat others that way.

Oh No! What if they secretly start working against us. helping insurgents kill our troops and start harboring terrorist?!?!?! oh....wait a minute ...didn't clearlry read the article was about Pakistan...

The time will come when we all wake up and say "no more!" No more of the military robbing the national treasury and no more of the nation's finest being killed so the CIA can play imperialists. The old Karl Rove ways of slandering anyone that questions the decisions of the military and the government are over.

You people on K Street and the politicians that you own have ran us into the ground and the defense contractors are singing the same song--"Gimme more." Being truly patriotic is not letting you leeches ruin what left of this country. We don't belong in the Middle East and it's not ours to bomb or occupy. We're $14T in the hole and you people want more wars. Purely insane.

sandrich

Get down off your soap box! Your naive as they come and have been since I first started reading your posts. The military doesn't create traps for our soldiers to die in. They follow the will of our political leaders, always have and hopefully always will. It is the politicians that order our troops into battle, appropriate the money for the fighting to continue, and allow this sort of stupid exchange with Pakistan to take place. I agree we should now leave Afghanistan, but it must be on our terms, not Pakistan or any other government's.

The military has been on a campaign to build America support for a war with Pakistan for some time now. They have really pumped up the rhetoric in the last six months. Why else would they need a 180 billion dollar increase in there budget for 2012. Which they will get despite the current hype about cuts.

The next two major war's are going to be with Pakastan and Iran. I'll be amazed if they can keep there finger off the trigger until 2012.

@ Sandwich; Ahh Sandwich, you always make so many friends with your posts.lol. You say we are the bad guy because we screwed up

"Our military screwed up and now you're blaming them"

Have you ever erred, or "screwed up", does this make you the bad guy? I think not. Let me tell you who the bad guys are as I have driven your post into the ground in the past where you cut and run. The Pakistan Taliban are the bad guys, or does throwing acid in young Pakistini school girls faces make you a good guy, or maybe blowing up innocent worshippers while they are bathing preparing to pray? I could go on with a laundry list proving whom the bad guys are in Pakistan, but those two usually suffice.

Pakistan is surely allowing the Pakistan Taliban to thrive and survive,their are only about 37 to 40,000 Taliban in Pakistan, Pakistan has a large force of around 1/2 million,active and reserve troops,and claim they are stretched to thin, to fight them full force? I think not again.

Where are the outcries from the poeple when these deplorable acts by the Taliban come about? There are few to none, because it is simple bias, and prejudice against anything western they abhor, not just this incident. I will tell you again, be thankful we are over there, and they are not over here, so you can pick, grow your Avocados in peace, be thankful, 14 trillion? Our freedom and security are priceless, so quit being a hypocrite by enjoying your freedoms, and right to happiness, then railing on those whom provide it.

War is hell, but a necessary a evil, so quit preaching against or go bring the Taliban some Avocados,and see how they recieve the infidel.

Why is the fact that our people were receiving fire from Pakistan being ignored? Shouldn't that be investigated before our people are investigated for calling in an aristrike on them?

We need to completely disavow ourselves of Pakistan, put them on the same list as Iran.

The Pakistanis have an estimated 70-90 modern nuclear warheads (meaning that they are small enough to be delivered by missiles. Here is a list of their missiles:

ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_missiles_of_Pakistan

As an old intelligence analyst, here are some of my observations on what is going on:

1) The elected government of Pakistan is weak, poorly affiliated with the military, and extremely corrupt. The only thing that keeps it in power is an influx of US foreign aid and constant drum-beating for another war with India. While it is largely secular, it lacks the backing of any significant group of the populace except for the wealthy elite and the professional classes.

2) The Pakistani military is equally weak and effective, but has strong ties to the wealthy elite and professional class. It is governed by no specific individual but by a consensus of its general staff. It is not unusuly for second and third sons of the wealthy elite to go into the military. The military claims, without much foundation, to be the "guarantor" of Democracy in Pakistan. But instead it is a parasite that lives off the billions in drug money that flow through the region. Because they are high in the pecking order, their profits are incredibly large. Drugs are close to 50% of the GDP.

3) Because both the civilian leadership and military influence are in decline right now, army military intelligence, the ISI, is moving to become the controlling force in the situation. They are expert at playing multiple sides against one another. The ISI collects tribute from the autonomous tribal regions for keeping them independent. They take a slice off the top of drug money. They keep tensions between Pakistan and India very high. (It was the ISI who set up, funded, and ran the Mumbai terrorist attacks for example.) And in the past they have played the Taliban and al-Queada against the US, receiving money from both sides. The ISI is never to be trusted. The most serious example is that they had direct knowledge of where bin Laden was hiding for at least the last three years. The al Haqqauni network is very much controlled by the ISI as a sort of mafia with the protection of the military.

4) The US involvement in Iraq is in its last stages. And that in Afghanistan is winding down pretty quickly. The last offensive operation of any consequence will probably come next spring and after that the troops will start to be withdrawn rather quickly. Some of it is political, some is budgetary, and some is just the fact that we have made little headway there.

5) The ISI seems to be keely aware that the US will eventually pull the purse strings on military aid to Pakistan and end that source of revenue. They are afraid that when the US starts to pull out of Afghanistan that they will try to capture the Pakistani nuclear warheads and perhaps the longer range missiles. For that reason there have been numerous reports that they are playing a massive shell game with the nukes, moving them around the countrty in trucks and passenger railcars. There is serious concern that all this low-key unguarded movement of the warheads may present an opportunity for either the Taliban or other Muslim radicals to take a warhead or two or for the ISI to commandeer several and blame it on either the Taliban or Hindu terrorists.

6) The ISI has long encouraged the military in the autonomous territories to fire on NATO targets to keep tensions high, but also to curry favor with the Taliban and the tribes. I have little doubt that this incident was instigated by the ISI because all the initial Pakistani reports said that the Pakistani army fired on the aircraft with all available arms including missiles and AAA. This is not what happens during a real friendly fire incident. In a real incident you hunker down and start frantically radioing the friendlies to stop. You do not fire heat-seeking missiles at them in the hopes of making them stop. My guess is that this was a Taliban operation that was launched from the area and came under NATO attack. The Pakistanis tried supporting fire, first with artillery and then by shooting at the aircraft when they realized that there were no ground targets. Big mistake!

7) The Chinese quote was meaningless. The Chinese and Pakistanis are long-term enemies and there is zero love lost between them. To China they are just a beligerant nuclear power sitting on the Chinese border and a competing cheap labor country.

My bottom line guess is that as NATO pulls out of Afghanistan, the ISI, backed by right-wing Muslims and the Haqqani network will depose the civilian government and install a military junta controlled by the ISI. Then all Pakistani attention will be turned toward India and the disputed Kashmir region. This is the traditional focus that the military has always used to keep a very tribal country united against a common enemy.

Hope the A--WIPE in the white house cuts off all foregin aid and everything else we give them !!!!

US to Pakistan: Bye and don't let the tent flap hit you in the @ss on the way out.

Well I don't trust the Pakistani back-stabbers anyway. Why do I think if Pakistan had been alerted to the bin Ladin raid before it happened that bin Ladin would still be walking around today?!

Just keep the drones flying for freedom everywhere!!!!

Love how China is acting like a concerned party.... blatant move on their part. Everyone hates on people that take a hard stance and many think them pro-war, but there is no other way to deal with that region than to annihilate the people as a whole. You can't take out a small segment and not expect reproach. It's not viable and if you follow history it's failed experiment fighting these people. If you really want to end the problems there, you would need to Nuke/Chemical the entire population of the Middle East. Most people in the west don't have the stomach for that. So, the problem continues, ad infinum.

Quoting a high-level Pakistani from the article:

"We have to have something bigger so as to satisfy my nation."

This is all you need to know about why this happened. It is a grift, hustle, flimflam, whatever you want to call it. Pakistan provokes NATO forces, NATO responds, Pakistanis are outraged and Pakistani leaders demand more money to pacify the mobs. It's actually the same game that the terrorists have played for years to support recruitment: provoke a military response, usually resulting in collateral damage, then use the collateral damage to inflame folks and bring them into the fold.

sandritch "The "Nuke em" banter is meaningless." True; but it's so emotionally satisfying to post.

As a wise man sometimes said, "There's a simple answer for everything; unfortunately it's usually wrong."

And F### giving them any more money and aid. They CAN"T have it both ways (or at least shouldn't)...

The Pakistanis are UNTRUSTWORTHY. They have no ethical system - endless lying, cheating, back-stabbing, and graft define their politicians and military. It is time to treat them as a failed state and an Islamic extremist state, and to quaranteen them just as treat North Korea. Close their Washington embassy, or at least cut it back to one guardedly accredited diplomat and a janitor.

Not one more red cent in loans or AID grants should be given to that sh**hole country. If their population is cut in half by disease and famine GOOD - the world does not need any Pakistanis.

Enough is enough. Patrol the Pakistan - Afghanistan border with AC-130's and just let 'Er rip anytime any cross border movement is detected. The only 'good' Islamic extremists are dead ones.

We have gone to great lengths during the last 10 years in proving we cannot wage respectable war. Sure as "little green apples" someone will get killed. Often, it will be someone other than the one we were aiming at. Having said this though, I'm not so sure these were not enemies. According to the Pak leader, to settle this with some degree of harmony the Paks will now need much more money, else we must get out and kill no more of them. This whole war strategy in that area has always been an oddity, at least to me. We are in Afghanistan and Pakistan to kill the Taliban, for primarily Afghanistan, and secondarily, for Pakistan. We pay all three much money in order to kill mostly Taliban, then Afghans, and finally Paks, in that order. Now, we kill mostly Taliban, who receive the least money, then Afghani's, who receive more money, then a few Pak's here and there, who receive the most money. If we are going to pay, then it seems we should pay the most to those whom we kill the most. As I said, to me, this is a strange way to conduct a war. I don't understand why we can't just leave. Quit paying all that money, come on home and rest awhile. If they all miss us we could tweet or email them now and then.

North Korea-Stalemate

North Vietnam-Beat our asses

Iraq (1)-Can claim victory, but if we won, we wouldn't be there now

Iraq (2)-Got our asses beat

Afghanistan-Continuing to get our asses beat.

And yet it is inevitible that some idiot from Texas will say that we need to invade a foreign land. It is guaranteed to get a lot of "thumbs-up," but it requires the complete rejection of reality. The American military is too costly to wield. Our generals are exceptionally poor planners. The public is not willing to make the sacrifices necessary to wage a winning battle. And the soldiers we send in to battle are not adaptable enough to be able to fight across a changing battlefield against an invisible enemy.

America is the intruder in the region. The reason that the region is such a mess is because it was left that way after the western colonial powers abandoned them without functioning governments. If you don't like what is happening, pack up the troops and go home.

@Chris-749391

Regarding point #7

The Chinese and Pakistanis are long-term enemies and there is zero love lost between them.

Really? I'd like to know what you have to say about military cooperation between China and Pakistan, including development of nuclear weapons.

Additionally, I'm curious what your thoughts are on the Gwadar Deep Sea Port and China's involvement in that infrastructure project.

Jim is correct

We know where their nuclear reactors and centrifuges are. We also have the location of the nukes themselves pinned down. Destroy the nukes, the reactors making bomb grade material and the centrifuges. After that the Indian military can deal with them as they see fit.

sandtrich - Facts? And where did these facts derive? Our military screwed up and now you're blaming them.

Well, the article clearly stated that NATO forces returned fire when attacked; Pakistan of course blames the US for an unprovoked attack. Understandably, NATO issues statements to justify their position; Pakistan issues statements mostly to avoid appearing weak and keep favor with its population. I guess we can all believe your statements because you were there and say what happened and now are providing us your invaluable insight so that we too can now “know the truth”

Had you been around during WWII you would have blamed the Jewish and Poles for their own slaughter. Actually, the prevailing, world wide historical account is that Hitler was responsible for the slaughter of Jewish and Polish people, as well as countless others who tried stopping his lunacy. Your ignorance and lack of truth and moral validity has resulted in your inability to rationally articulate your positions and rendered you helpless to communicate in any form other than self-serving indignance and disrespectful slander. Hitler was a lot like that to, and he blamed the ills of the many on a lot of people to advance his cause.

We as a country were fooled by the military to create a death trap for our soldiers in Vietnam.
No, we as a country followed a path to contain communism while trying to remain officially uninvolved. It proved unproductive, and I think most Americans realize that political wars are unproductive, and we would rather not have to resort to wear at all. However; out enemies do not feel the same way and therefore, we must either defeat / destroy them soundly, or do get involved. Both have consequences that are not always good. We chose to mind our own business and not to get involved in WWII … That went well for us didn’t it?

You say Fast forward to 2011---nothing changes. The boogie man was "communists" then and now it's Pakistan. It sickens me to read all of the war mongering that goes on by the ill informed. It's about keeping that $1.2T in defense related spending in tact so the real recipients of welfare, (defense contractors), can get the cash. The bigger folly is to deny the existence of human nature; the greed and corruption, the quest for power and dominance, and the ready willingness to capture, kill, or enslave (think uneducated disempowered populations) as many as they can for their own purposes.

I challenge you to examine the 7,000 years of recorded human history and decide for yourself the nature and capabilities of the human race. I am certain you will find yourself in as many detestable situations as the next person, and struggling to measure up to some belief you have. Good luck with that… 7,000 years of recorded history says you are just as bad as the rest of us.

Rather than disrespectfully correct others for their ignorance… I suggest you look at your own ignorant behavior and then try to gain some insight and improve yourself. Believing what you read and hear will not work for you and 7,000 years of history says so… Try finding your own facts, evaluate them for validity and then try really really hard to rationally articulate something meaningful, while leaving others to improve themselves without your fingers in their faces. Otherwise you are just more noise.

sandtrich - Facts? And where did these facts derive? Our military screwed up and now you're blaming them.

Well, the article clearly stated that NATO forces returned fire when attacked; Pakistan of course blames the US for an unprovoked attack. Understandably, NATO issues statements to justify their position; Pakistan issues statements mostly to avoid appearing weak and keep favor with its population. I guess we can all believe your statements because you were there and say what happened and now are providing us your invaluable insight so that we too can now “know the truth”

Had you been around during WWII you would have blamed the Jewish and Poles for their own slaughter. Actually, the prevailing, world wide historical account is that Hitler was responsible for the slaughter of Jewish and Polish people, as well as countless others who tried stopping his lunacy. Your ignorance and lack of truth and moral validity has resulted in your inability to rationally articulate your positions and rendered you helpless to communicate in any form other than self-serving indignance and disrespectful slander. Hitler was a lot like that to, and he blamed the ills of the many on a lot of people to advance his cause.

We as a country were fooled by the military to create a death trap for our soldiers in Vietnam.
No, we as a country followed a path to contain communism while trying to remain officially uninvolved. It proved unproductive, and I think most Americans realize that political wars are unproductive, and we would rather not have to resort to wear at all. However; out enemies do not feel the same way and therefore, we must either defeat / destroy them soundly, or do get involved. Both have consequences that are not always good. We chose to mind our own business and not to get involved in WWII … That went well for us didn’t it?

You say Fast forward to 2011---nothing changes. The boogie man was "communists" then and now it's Pakistan. It sickens me to read all of the war mongering that goes on by the ill informed. It's about keeping that $1.2T in defense related spending in tact so the real recipients of welfare, (defense contractors), can get the cash. The bigger folly is to deny the existence of human nature; the greed and corruption, the quest for power and dominance, and the ready willingness to capture, kill, or enslave (think uneducated disempowered populations) as many as they can for their own purposes.

I challenge you to examine the 7,000 years of recorded human history and decide for yourself the nature and capabilities of the human race. I am certain you will find yourself in as many detestable situations as the next person, and struggling to measure up to some belief you have. Good luck with that… 7,000 years of recorded history says you are just as bad as the rest of us.

Rather than disrespectfully correct others for their ignorance… I suggest you look at your own ignorant behavior and then try to gain some insight and improve yourself. Believing what you read and hear will not work for you and 7,000 years of history says so… Try finding your own facts, evaluate them for validity and then try really really hard to rationally articulate something meaningful, while leaving others to improve themselves without your fingers in their faces. Otherwise you are just more noise.

sandtrich - Facts? And where did these facts derive? Our military screwed up and now you're blaming them.

Well, the article clearly stated that NATO forces returned fire when attacked; Pakistan of course blames the US for an unprovoked attack. Understandably, NATO issues statements to justify their position; Pakistan issues statements mostly to avoid appearing weak and keep favor with its population. I guess we can all believe your statements because you were there and say what happened and now are providing us your invaluable insight so that we too can now “know the truth”

Had you been around during WWII you would have blamed the Jewish and Poles for their own slaughter. Actually, the prevailing, world wide historical account is that Hitler was responsible for the slaughter of Jewish and Polish people, as well as countless others who tried stopping his lunacy. Your ignorance and lack of truth and moral validity has resulted in your inability to rationally articulate your positions and rendered you helpless to communicate in any form other than self-serving indignance and disrespectful slander. Hitler was a lot like that to, and he blamed the ills of the many on a lot of people to advance his cause.

We as a country were fooled by the military to create a death trap for our soldiers in Vietnam.
No, we as a country followed a path to contain communism while trying to remain officially uninvolved. It proved unproductive, and I think most Americans realize that political wars are unproductive, and we would rather not have to resort to wear at all. However; out enemies do not feel the same way and therefore, we must either defeat / destroy them soundly, or do get involved. Both have consequences that are not always good. We chose to mind our own business and not to get involved in WWII … That went well for us didn’t it?

You say Fast forward to 2011---nothing changes. The boogie man was "communists" then and now it's Pakistan. It sickens me to read all of the war mongering that goes on by the ill informed. It's about keeping that $1.2T in defense related spending in tact so the real recipients of welfare, (defense contractors), can get the cash. The bigger folly is to deny the existence of human nature; the greed and corruption, the quest for power and dominance, and the ready willingness to capture, kill, or enslave (think uneducated disempowered populations) as many as they can for their own purposes.

I challenge you to examine the 7,000 years of recorded human history and decide for yourself the nature and capabilities of the human race. I am certain you will find yourself in as many detestable situations as the next person, and struggling to measure up to some belief you have. Good luck with that… 7,000 years of recorded history says you are just as bad as the rest of us.

Rather than disrespectfully correct others for their ignorance… I suggest you look at your own ignorant behavior and then try to gain some insight and improve yourself. Believing what you read and hear will not work for you and 7,000 years of history says so… Try finding your own facts, evaluate them for validity and then try really really hard to rationally articulate something meaningful, while leaving others to improve themselves without your fingers in their faces. Otherwise you are just more noise.

"No more business as usual"

Okay, then, lets pack up the troops in Afganistan, bring 'em home ASAP, and quit paying billions in 'economic aid' to a bunch of corrupt screwups just for the privilege of drivings trucks full of diesel fuel through their country.

Buh-bye, end of story. Don't call us, we'll call you.

eeewww
sandtrich - Facts? And where did these facts derive? Our military screwed up and now you're blaming them.

Well, the article clearly stated that NATO forces returned fire when attacked; Pakistan of course blames the US for an unprovoked attack.

We don't belong there. How would we feel if there were loads of foreign military roaming around the US? The unprovoked attack thing---it's what our military always says. It's merely a way to get us into more wars. I served in the Navy during Nam and my brother was "in country" for a tour. My father was a WWII submariner and my son is an active duty Naval Officer. 3 generations of my family have been a part of the lies and the perpetual wars.

My brother lost his best friend to "friendly fire" and has lived since 1967 with the effects of Agent Orange as well as shrapnel in his body. I won't speak of my son as my voice has put his a$$ in a crack before. I was aboard an OA and we were ordered to dump 100's of barrels of red and blue led paints in the sea while still on the continental shelf of the US. The absolute waste of resources and human lives--that's what the military has become post WWII---everything that Eisenhower warned us of.

I would discourage any other of my family from being a part of the military until it has honorable intentions again. And--we wonder why they hate us.

There will come a time when the jobs has been 100% outsourced and all we will manufacture is WMD's. It's almost here.

J Swieney ---- you need to study your history a little better. Korea was a mess, mostly because of politicians attempting a "police action". it was never declared a war. And there was this other country, a really BIG one, that got inlvoved. China. They came across the Border and killed quite a few of our boys. They don't value life like we do in the West. They sent WAVES of soldiers at our lines and we had machine guns with melting barrels as they climbed over their falled comrades. Read about Chosin Reservoir sometime. We kicked their butts back into China and they wouldn't let Patton keep going after them. He wanted to stomp them hard enough they couldn't muster another force. Vietnam: same deal. "Police Action". Can't go straight into North Vietnam and just stomp them in the dirt. They were worried about China getting involved, etc. Talk to any North Vietnamese, they will tell you that they were out of bullets, missiles etc. It would have been over in less than another year or two even without us going into the North. We lost about 50k in ten years there. They lost hundreds of thousands...how does that entail us getting our ass kicked? Our boys were fighting with one hand tied behind their back and couldn't step out of their corner of the ring. No standing army in this world can stand up to our military. We are the greatest the world has known. Guerilla actions are a different nature. They are almost impossible to stop. They won't even engage with our troops at ranges of less than 500 yards in Afghanistan. That's about max range of the 5.56 round that the M4 rifle uses. Think that's a coincidence? Not likely. They don't want to engage in a gun battle with our boys on equal footing. So they are limited to small ambushes and planting bombs like the goat humping cowards they are. We have lost less than 10k in 10 years of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. I would venture to say that our record in combat is improving. That war is never going to be over there, whether it's us, Russia or China. They are frickin savages and that's the way it's going to be there.

If you mess with the Best ..Die like the rest.

May what goes around come around for you.

@ Let Me Explain - I rarely agree with what you say, but i'll make an exception on this one. Pakistan is nothing but a festering Muslim fundamentalist s--thole and the sooner we get our armed forces the hell away from there the better.

To those who imply we should attack Pakistan to take out their nuclear capabilities, shame on you. Guess you can't fix stupidity.

How does all of this blood taste???

If all of you want to kill so much maybe you should suit up, set a meeting and have at each other.....

All of the wars over history have been over resources, power and money!!!! Millions of innocent people have been unjustly murdered!!!

When will the disgusting blood thirst stop!!! Shame shame shame

@sandtrich

" We're the bad guys on this."

you mean BHO is the bad guy, right?...if GWB was still in office you would MOST ASSUREDLY have said he was the "bad guy"

Jim in Dallas : I thought we went there so they can help us fight al quaida, now we want to betrade them and take their Nuclear w... we are evil you know!

Who gives us the right to have it from the first place?

We used it first, we should be the one first taken it off

The best thing the US can do is declare the mission complete and go home, pack up everything and go before those Idiots know what happened, let them handle it their way with their resources, if the Taliban ever pose to be a problem to us in the future we can send in drones and blow them to hell. till then don't spend one dime on that worthless part of the world just let them be. its our turn to have a laugh at them they have been sucking us dry on purpose. it takes us just a few months to train a serviceman, they have had 10 years, its time to go. pass the torch to them and good riddance. its time to end this cat and mouse game.

Sandtrich is correct.

We go in there (Central Asia), invade, bomb bomb and bomb some more, give them money, then bomb them again, ,and occupy, give them MORE money, bomb, and occupy.......fix their infrastructure, build their schools, and bomb, bomb and bomb some more........

The cycle of idiocy never ends, does it???????

Yes, the Pakis are scumbags. And idiots. But WE keep feeding into this lunacy!

AND WE KEEP FEEDING THESE A*HOLES MONEY!!! While here at home ROME CONTINUES TO BURN!!!!

Tell me; WHO ARE THE BIGGER IDIOTS HERE????????

"Sandtrich is correct."

haha...glad the king of the universe cleared that up...isn't it cool?

Harry Blank: Don't know whether "HOTTICKET" is a king or not, but he is right. "Sandtrich" is correct. Doesn't cool me much though.

@ sandwich; Once again you preach against those who protect you. Go tell a war vet whom has lost his legs from an IED that it is not worth the fight, he/she will tell you you are dead wrong, and I would assume you still have your legs, but yet you still complain. You are surely entitled to your opinion, my problem is the hypocrisy of you enjoying the fruits, and busting on the ones who labor for you to have them.

You try to come off as supportive of our military, but you cant have it both ways, you are either behind them or your not, you speak as usaul out both sides of your mouth, but are to blind to realize it, hope this 10th try clears it up for you.

How dare you try to disway our young men and women for fighting for their country!! Unlike you they go in selfless, ready to sacrifice in the name of duty and honor, only because the commander in chief asks of it. You would be speaking German or Japanese right now if our fighting men and woman of WWI, and WWII, thought like you. Thank the lord they did not.

Why not take your Avocados and...........

Coral Taxi, nobody is saying that the "troops" are not hero's. But, you sit here and tell me that all those dead and wounded soilders are doing "good things for America". Sorry pal, they are doing the bidding of the warmonger idiot Generals like Stanley McCrystal, who is the biggest military idiot in the last 50 years. Yeah sure, let's "build nations" with our forces here no nation has truly ever existed, using our troops as policeman for goat herders. Good idea, teach illiterates how to drive, and protect there own. That is a blueprint for disaster, for the continuation of a failed policy. If you would have told the American people that in 10 years we can't defeat a pathetic country like Afghanistan, the citizens would have said no! Sell your never ending wars somewhere else. And, no I don't feel "safer". In fact I think that we are less safe, the longer we stay occupying these countries. I don't give a damn about Islamic loonies, what I do care about is this country.

Jim in Dallas: I agree with you. If this could be done in Iraq during 1991, what is the problem in doing it in Pakistan?

Pakistan is a failed terrorist nation with nukes and exporting Islamic terrorists all over the world.

Pakistan is a better candidate than 1991 Saddam's Iraq.

@sandtrich....I would like to thank you and your family. I agree with you 100%.

I live with a Vet. who suffers from some "odd" skin condition that he came home with...not to mention the emotional scars. Yes he is fortunate enough, that he did not lose any limbs but has lost many friends. He (along with many Vets.) is very angry about the fact that these wars over the years have all been lies. War is only about resources, power and lies. The only freedom being fought for is the freedom of the oligarchy to do as they please.

Instead of fighting among our selves on forums like this we ALL need to start fighting for our own Country and our own freedom as our bought government is stealing it away from us with all of these crazy new laws.

People need to wake up and clean our own back yard before we profess we can clean up another.

@ JBS; Why dont you and all the sandwich loving hypocrites whom enjoy the spoils of war,ie your FREEDOM,take your anti war stances and get out of this country.

But, you sit here and tell me that all those dead and wounded soilders are doing "good things for America". Sorry pal, they are doing the bidding of the warmonger idiot

Um hello Mcfly!! There would be no America or newsvine for you guys to rail against your military, if it were not for the ultimate sacrifice of our fighting men and women. That "warmongering idiot" is keeping you and sandwich all safe from harm. How dare you cheapen the lives lost for this country.

How dare you say they just died for the president, they died for duty, and honor and the American way, without question, something you or sandwich will never understand. you are a prime example of the hypocrites whom agree with sandwich.

LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!!!

@ JBS; Oh and JBS, I will never be someones pal whom cheapens the past sacrifices of our fighting men and women. so please never call me pal again!

Even Michelle Bachmann understands that we have to have some presence and influence (read money) in the game due to the presence of nuclear weapons in the region - not just Pakistan: India, China, Israel, Russia and who knows who else. I also don't recall any reports that this administration apologized for violating their air space to go after Bin Laden (nor should we.) We are now successfully targeting more actual terrorists in more locations (with a much smaller footprint and lower costs) than the previous administration did at the cost of 4,000 US lives and trillions of unbudgeted dollars.

If the attack was unprovoked or based on misinformation, then NATO should pay reparations to the families at least. If the attack was provoked, then this will die down, just as the Bin Laden raid was dying down because Pakistan really has no credibility and no one else to go to. I am expecting the Pakistan government to fall to a coup any day now. It is so weak as to be a joke. Consider Pakistan at this point a couple of steps ahead of Somalia since it does still have social supports and infrastructure but that is about it.

Yeah, sure. Obama apologized to Pakistan as he had Special Forces enter Pakistan to kill Bin Laden without their permission. Jim in Dallas, you are an idiot. AND he doesn't know what he is talking about, so just stay in Texas and shut the hell up about the Liberal thing.

Jim in Dallas: pointing fingers at one party or another and calling anyone who might think before they act a "lefty liberal" accomplishes nothing! This is the mentality of many of those in the previous administration and that is exactly what got us into the mess we are in, in the first place.

Jim has good points but then he blames liberals...which is just what a moron would do. I'm liberal and I'm glad the U.S. did exactly what they did in Pakistan. I don't think America will ever be safe from the middle east. And quite frankly I'm so tired of them and their neanderthal views that I wouldn't miss any of them if they were eviscerated out of existence.

We need to get out of that country and leave them to do what they will. There no threat to the US, no Navy, a weak Airforce, and an Army of idiots. Get our troops out and stay out of occupying middle eastern countries, we never learn a damn thing.

Who cares what Pakistan has to say about us? This place is so paralyzed by religion that it has become totally dysfunctional. If the Pakistani people don’t resolve their religious terrorism problem soon, the rest of the world it will be forced to resolve it for them.

Hungry families make midnight runs to Walmart

Anita, we shouldn't let their having nukes to be used as blackmail to keep the money flowing.

Pakis have been supporting Islamic militants fighting NATO forces in Afghanistan.

After Osama case, no one trusts a Paki any more all over the world.

They have allowed us to be there, and send drone attack at the very people you think they defend, or do you outright believe that Pakistan is harboring terrorist? I could see the latter being true since osama was found there...

Chris: You made a lot of stupid assumptions there, which just makes you look stupid. Having a problem with bad strategic, tactical, and economic decisions by our government, does not make one a "hippy". That kind of ignorant black-and-white thinking is what led us to this mess.

hmm.. two things...

when did NATO become USA and

this article is from pro-paki lobbyist.. no mention of how these terrorists got behind and with the Pakistani soldiers, attack the US troops then claim innocence.. the attack was provoked .. who in their right mind would attack paki soldier border post..

the ans is there is no diff between the soldiers and the militants and ignorant Americans would believe these scum bags pakis and not our own troops..

the propaganda machine.. while everyone is lamenting these two-faced parasites' death .. billions will be given to them for appeasement.. while ignorant americans will hate themselves.. morons.. we deserve to played by these mofos.. we are so retarded !!!

Is this like when we asked Pakistan to help find Bin Laden but they couldn't? Oh yeah, thats right, he was outside Paki military base. As far as I'm concerned they provide comfort to the ememy and shouldn't cry when they get slapped.

Let's face it! These people have a chip on their shoulders and want to cause trouble. Bet this story is a lie made up by their government to foment unrest toward the U.S.

We need to leave this area and allow these people to murder each other as much as they wish and leave us alone.

Keith: And I thought that the Neanderthals were extinct, but there you are!

The border posts are relatively new as well so we may not have even known about them.

Gunfire from border outposts will provoke an attack. Sounds like it was planned from the start.

anon....that is the real question isn't it? Say what you want...that the U.S. dictates the actions of Nato which seems to be the general consensus...but the fact of the matter is that there is tremendous ammount of imput from all the nations involved before such actions take place..so why be angry at just the U.S.?

Hey anon-3177173 - last time I checked, the US government, and specifically the military, has been caught in so many lies recently that they can't keep them straight. Let's see where to start: the Pat Tillman cover up, the Reuter reporters killings/cover up in Iraq, the Haditha massacre by US Marines....shall I go on?

While I consider myself a liberal, I don't believe in idly sitting by while terrorists do their planning for killing innocent americans on a mass scale. Obama did the right thing with bin Ladin and he needs to do the right thing now by keeping the drones flying and getting the troops out. Any military personel there needs to be intelligence gathering forces keeping track of the terrorists and nukes. It sounds so simple .... so let's hear the rest of the story why we can't do this?? Anybody???

Marlon Jacobs: I agree with you. I believe we can and should do as you suggest. I do believe though, as "Sandtrich" has pointed out in his posts, there are way too many politicians who back the "military/industrial complex" to get this done easily. Politicians such as McCain, McConnell, etc. won't hold still for the diminishment of profits derived by the manufacturers of weapons for use in these wars. Look at the money this country spends on this unholy crap each year, much of which is functionally redundant, or often obsolete. The Pentagon has, for too long, been a dumping ground for this very profitable, and wasteful enterprise. It seems these sorry bastards (politicians) need long, discretionary wars, explicitly to justify these needless expenditures. Regards

Pakistan is a failed terrorist nation. Islamic militants are going to get nukes sooner or later.

There may be more devastating 9/11s by Islamic terrorists wtih nukes.

Better to carpet bomb the Paki militant and nuke areas without mercy for world peace.

"Gilani's comments reflect the fury of the Pakistani government and military, and the pressure they are under from their own people"

These Paki backstabbers and international liabilities are going to be furious one way or the other. Why should we care?

We should eliminate our enemies from the source.

Pakistan's President took shelter in this PM Gilani's basement before being sworn in as President. So Pakis have a basement govt. This is for begging aids.

Then they have a military and intelligence Pakistan govt. This is for blackmailing and backstabbing.

There is another Islamic militant Pakistan govt. This is for hating and killing!

So there are so many Paki govts!!

But I do get the right to tell her to pay the money back - i.e. stop allowing insurgents to hide behind your border while taking money to get rid of them.

Don't take the money.

Don't give. When you pay to play, there are rules in Whorehouse. If you misbehave there are consequences.

RAJ...No it doesn't give us the right to rape her...nor does it give her the right to bite the hand that feeds her. Take the money...then defile the country giving it? That's ok with you?

Raj - actually - according to your culture, yes we do. Your own culture says that since we are funding you, we own you. And we own all your possessions. And your culture says that your daughter is a possession (not a human being).

So - in summary - either accept your place in life and shut up, or stop being a puppet muslim and stand up to your own culture.

stop using the name of raj Patel .. PATELS are NOT Muslims you A$$.. Patels are Hindus and come from region of Gujarat India who are very anti-Muslim and hate Muslims.. ruining our good name

If you R a Patel you are just a converted F.. selling your soul to devil..

Most of the Pakis that slip into the US use the name Patel, instead of their real name.

yes..cuz .. Guju Patels were the first indian immigrants to USA and has made for themselves in USA with their business acumen and hard work and these terrorists use it as a cover..

As a patel I am so offended and disgusted by these brain washed Fs

Unnamed Afghan officials told the Associated Press that Afghan commandos and U.S. special forces were conducting a mission on the Afghan side of the border and received incoming fire from the direction of the Pakistani posts. They responded with airstrikes.

You must have missed this part T. Bill Rate

I wonder if China feels the same way about Taiwan, T. Bill.

The Pakistan Army is far from a true "Allied" armed forces when conducting operations against known terrorist elements. Pakistan Army personnel routinely "escort" militants from the Afghan border to Pakistan safe locations. Pakistan is ticked off because their troops got taken out for openly engaging US forces. They knew that US troops were right across the border but they fired anyway. Pakistan is playing the victim card towards the international press but really they are covering up any and all information on this piece to avoid being shown their true colors. Pakistan insurgents have a free roam ability and the fact that the out-going enemy fire was right next to a known Pakistan border chekpoint which is manned by Pakistan border patrol is another example of "do as I say and not as I do." If Pakistan would actually do it's job instead of providing arms, ammunition, supplies, and training to the various Haqqani, Taliban, Al Qadia supported, Taliban of Pakistan, and the dozen splinter Islamist cells, than we would see a serious drop in insurgent attacks. Without Pakistan support, the Taliban could not operate and would fade away over a period of time.

I unfortunately, do not believe that Pakistan or Afghanistan are "sovereign nations". A sovereign nation contols a defined set of boarders and is responsible for the citizens and actions of those citizens within them. To scream violations in sovernity, but then harbor the worlds most wanted terrorists, or throw your hands in the air when asked to crack down on providing training grounds for terrorists is idiotic at bests. Or troops do the best the can to fight an unwinable war with "partners" that do not want to win it. Even in the best of situations, friendly fire incidents occur, with all hands being committed to the defeat of the enemy. To say this is tragic is an understatement, any loss of life in war is tragic, but to say it is criminal is a totally different. Allowing militants to shoot at NATO forces, while refusing our help to eliminate them, is what causes us to have to shoot in your general direction. Get on the right side and the bullets will not be coming your way.

Well Absolute,

You proved China's point. NATO, Afghan Commandos, and US Special Forces intentionally violated Pakistan sovereignty by conducting airstrikes in Pakistan and killing allied forces. If you take the policy of shoot first, ask questions later, then you need to take your medicine and own up to your bad decisions when people ask questions later.

This is all deja vu. The US used these expansionist tacts in Viet Nam years ago. The Chinese then warned us that these tactics in their region are forbidden. The Chinese stopped short of bringing charges against the US for these crimes, as the US ended up losing the war in Viet Nam and withdrew from the region in shame and disgrace.

MMC:

We are in habit of minting terrorist like we have a factory. We went there to create the problem. No body asked us to Help Osama Bon Laden to fight Russian and usher Taliban era. We did it of our own volition.

Just like any onne fights Israel is terrorist even those, whose land Israel Occupies. We do not have helping those who wants freedom if the perpetrator is our Friend.

So now you have new definition of Soverign states. Spain is not a sate, Germanu and Poland are not states. Chian, Japan, Russia are not states. India is not a state. ALl these coutnries have border disputes with neighbors. Even Mexican thinks, our southwest is theirs.

Unnamed Afghan officials told the Associated Press that Afghan commandos and U.S. special forces were conducting a mission on the Afghan side of the border and received incoming fire from the direction of the Pakistani posts. They responded with airstrikes.

Let me repost that T-Bill....becasue obviously you didn't read it....I highlighted the key section in BOLD for you!

Pakistan is not an ally they are pimps. Prostituting their roads for a bjob from America in the form of billions. It is really fairly simple---If someone is shooting at you, you shoot back until you perceive that the threat is neutralized. That is what happened in Libya when they shot off their guns in celebration. They have pretty good telecommunications and graphic imagery--I believe that they knew where the fire was coming from and they responded. The Pakis were instantly overwhelmed and asked them to stop...After all, they were just messing with us. I don't think we saw it that way on the ground. They neutralized the threat. They don't like how we did it? Don't shoot at us.

Absolute,

Launching an airstrike across a border into allied territory violates all rules of engagement. In civilized warfare you stop what you are doing when a warning shot is fired across your bow. You don't proceed until directed to do so. For sure, you don't call-in an airstrike in the direction that the warning shot was fired. Doing so evokes great risk. President Nixon learned this lesson after he ordered attacks into Cambodia on April 30, 1970. The political risk became so intense for US Forces there that they withdrew from the region altogether March 29, 1973 with their tails between their legs.

Until NATO forces receive orders from the UN, they should stay out of Pakistan. China and others in the region could rightfully ask for a no fly zone around Afghanistan AND Pakistan. Unfortunately, it comes too late for the Pakistan soldiers killed during the NATO airstrike.

T. Bill - perhaps you should know what you are talking about prior to your posting. In time of war - there is no such animal as a shot across the bow. In war - if you are shot at, you shoot back. And you keep shooting until the other side stops moving. And if the initial shooting came from across the Pakistan border, then the targets are over there also. There is not magic rule that says that Pakistan is a 'fire free' zone. If they shoot at us, we return fire. If Pakistani army die, too bad so sad. Next time, they should think before shooting across their border.

By the way - from your grammar and syntax, it is clear that english is not your primary language. What country are you posting from, and what is your motiviation?

mofo stop using raj patel as your alias .. patels are not muslims .. you scum bag paki..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patel

Interested Observer

You are a military genious. NATO could use a few good men like you.

Okay I'm busted. English is not my native language. To make things more clear to you ==>

谢谢你的想法。我从来没有听说过这种愚蠢。

T. Bill

Unfortunately, it comes too late for the Pakistan soldiers killed during the NATO airstrike.

Your right, UNFORTUNATELY, there are consequences for firing across the border into another country.

They paid the highest price for doing so.

Absolute,

They were warning shots. Pakistan has every right to defend themselves against invaders.

Now NATO, the Afghan Commandos, and US Special Forces need to explain themselves to the Pakistan people. Hopefully, the investigation will show this was a tragic accident and the Pakistan people will receive war reparations from NATO to strengthen their border from potential invaders.

ROGLMFAO....

You are so Full of @!$%#E!!!!! You will never be able to defend the action of a dirty azz Paki to me...give it up.

I like that phrase, "Pakistan Soldiers were merely firing warning shots at known and marked US positions..." That is too funny. Also, the US military command and Pakistan border commanders met on a regular basis and discuss on-going operations. What is a more probable idea is that the US ground commanders informed the Pakistan commanders that US troops would be at grid square "X" at a designated time to conduct a patrol and recon the Afghan border. Then on that specific night an alarming event occurs. Pakistan military checkpoints which usually are small and manned by less than 10 Soldiers now arrives at 24 plus heavily armed and appartently trigger happy? They did not fire "warning shots" these type of events are on-going. Pakistan routinely drops mortar and rocket fire directly on US positions, far greater than the local Taliban insurgent but extremely accurate mortar fire on key US positions. Not to "warn" but to kill. Also, review a number of stories recently written which discuss specifically heavy gunfire exchanges with US troops and Pakistan Soldiers who open fire on US patrols all the time. Pakistan is ticked off because we brought heavy weapons on these Soldiers who have been providing aid and assistance to local Taliban fighters and Pakistan insurgents for a very long time. Pakistan is a joke and the sooner we find alternate means to provide logisitcal support the better off we will be by allowing China to take over that role of "super power babysitter". When those "secured" Chinese made nuclear weapons go off in a large US city, don't get upset when the Pakistan government goes "oh yeah, we should have told you about that." If anyone remembers their historical piece about paying "tribune" to the former Barbary Pirates during the early 1800s this is the same thing. The US is paying billions of dollars to the Pakistan government to ensure they keep the nutcases out of the nuclear weapons depots and not allow a wanna be Bin Laden from getting a warhead. We pay them money but they use the same money to bankroll their Taliban connections. Our cash is being used to purchase arms and ammo that is then directed towards US personnel. Also, NATO is not connected to the United Nations. NATO does not take direct orders from the UN leadership nor the UNSECGEN. Please review the overall Afghan mission statement. It is not a UN mandated mission.

All radical Muslims and countries like Pakistan that support them will eventually learn a very harsh lesson; If you act like a rabid dog and go around biting people you can expect to be put down sooner or later.

BigAl Las Vegas

Well said and briefly. Fundamentalist Islam is like rabies - no cure. These Paki terrorists should be put down mercifully but quickly. Maybe Allah wants them, but somehow I kinda doubt it.

Yo Mac,

CNN and MSNBC reported that the 2 hour airstrike into Pakistan killing 24 Pakistan soldiers was a NATO mission.

I'm confident that the investigation of this airstrike will determine the truth. Maybe it's the way you said it was and the Pakistan troops asked for it. If, however, the investigation finds that the NATO airstrike was improper, than the field commander responsible for ordering the strike should get his butt in trouble for killing US allies on the border, not stopping the 2 hour strike when Pakistan asked us to, and not properly identifying the strike target as friend or foe.

Losing Pakistan as an ally in the region would not be good headwork on the part of the US. Granted,the US relationship with the Pakistan government is edgy. Given the airstrike on 24 Pakistan soldiers, this doesn't do anything to take the edge off the relationship. If US forces can't conduct border ops safely with the Afghan fighters, then they should back off. If there are Al Queada insurgents there, then it should be easy to contain their ops to the Pakistan border. Sending airstrikes into Pakistan should be forbidden.

@ T.Bill:

I agree with your assessment, the Afghan mission is a NATO mandated mission. There are United Nation aid programs inside the country of Afghanistan and several UN operated programs anywhere from medical assistance to farming and agriculture training, but the military operations are NATO and thus has nothing to do with the UN nor would it be commanded under a UN charter. ISAF (International Security Assistance Forces) are made up of several countries the main one being the United States. You have other non-NATO allies like France and a few other countries providing support, but overall senior leadership is made up of US/UK/Austrailia/Canada. Two hours may seem "excessive" but in combat the key is to make the other person shooting at you stop or cease to exsist. There are no "time outs" when you are under small arms and mortar fire. What is troubling to your statements is not the fact that you are defending Pakistan's borders, but you seem to be overlooking the obvious which is that Pakistan has been playing two sides of the fence since the first US troops touched down in Afghanistan. They have maintained a presences of attacking "Taliban" strong-holds in selected regions of Pakistan but allow the Northern Area Tribal Administered region to go into chaos as to not to incite violence within the various sub tribes and known insurgent elements operating against US and ISAF forces. Pakistan has been providing arms, ammunition, explosives, and training to those tribes who will do Pakistan's bidding. Pakistan does not seek to have a secure Afghanistan. Afghanistan need to be in choas as to keep India on edge. Pakistan uses the Taliban, Pakistan-Taliban, Haqqani Network, and several other groups well funded and well armed. They receive orders from Pakistan senior military and intelligence Officers on a daily basis. Why?

Pakistan needs a proxy force to carry out a proxy war with India. While the war with the former Soviet Union was being conducted inside Afghanistan, the bulk of money, arms, and weapons being carried into Afghanistan for the Mujhadeen was conducted by the Pakistan military specifically the ISI intelligence branch. Those tribes which could be controlled, maintained, and would follow orders would be given the bulk of equipment. Hence the former Northern Alliance which was made up of some warlords and former Afghan commanders seeking a more modern Afghanistan was cut out from the inventory. Even ISI provided the Soviets with information and intelligence on tribes which did not maintain strict loyalty with Pakistan. Such methods ensured that the most radical of the groups were the ones most armed. The same tribes that were anti-Soviet were just as fanatic against the US and the West. Pakistan as well as Saudi Arabia viewed the Mujhadeen as holy warriors professing the true form of Islam (Wahhabism) across the Central Asian region. It became even more serious when attacks began to occur inside China where the small Islamic minority began to create violence. The same methods are being carried today. Those tribes and sub tribes which are willing to attack US troops and conduct offensive operations are given weapons and money. Some of the same money that the US gives to Pakistan is thus handed over to known enemy agents to buy new and mordern weapons. When Congress begins to carry out discussions on reduction of funding then we see a "major Pakistan military operation" against the Taliban. But those attacks and intelligence is merely a smoke screen to get rid of individuals who are not following Pakistan orders and to ensure that the bare minumum is done to ensure payment of tax payer dollars. We have been paying "tribune" if you will since Pakistan was assisted by China and North Korea with a nuclear weapon. Russia favors India so Russia assisted in building the Indian government a nuclear weapon to deter Pakistan action. Pakistan still believes, fears, and directs the bulk of it's actions to counter and thwart believed Indian movement. Pakistan holds their hand out asking for billions while providing the means to inflict mass casualities on US troops. Pakistan knew where Bin Laden was because he had always had a safe haven in Pakistan. This is a lot more than Pakistan ticked off because US troops called in for close air support.

I am not doubting your educational level, I am just merely offering some books which I have found very informative on this subject as well as the entire region.

Some well written books on this subject:

"Ghost Wars" The secret history of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden from the Soviet Invasion to 10 September 2001. by Steve Coll

"Imperial Hubris" Why the west is losing the war on terror. by "Anonymous"

"What went wrong?" Western Impact and the Middle Eastern response. by Bernard Lewis

"Good Muslim, Bad Muslim" America, the cold war, and the roots of terror. by Mahmood Mamdani

"Charlie Wilson's War" by George Crile

"War of Nerves" Chemical Warfare from WW1 to Al Qaeda. by Jonathan B. Tucker

"Jihad" The rise of militant Islam in Central Asia. by Ahmed Rashid

"Taliban" by Ahmed Rashid

"Guest of the Ayatollah" by Mark Bowden

If you need any additional books let me know I have a number of others that I did not list. But I do strongly advise "What went wrong" by Bernard Lewis, it is a very short, straight to the point book, written by a man who is well regarded as a Middle Eastern historian. It gives a wealth of insight as to the one question of why does the Middle East have such disdain for the west and how did a well educated and advanced society stop and get surpassed by the Europeans who at that time was still considered in the "dark ages"? That book is a good starting point to answer a lot of questions. Just my personal opinion take my ".10 cents" for what it is worth. I have served in the Middle East and have some understanding to the situation.

Mac,

Thank you for your exhaustive view of the situation in *stan. I've learned something.

First, I'd like to say that I take a hard stance on violations of a county's sovereignty. Violations are a serious thing. My background in this comes from the US Navy and my studies of International Law. US Navy ships are captital ships which mean they are the equivalent to terra firma here. Violations of airspace around US Navy ships violates US sovereignty, even in the middle of the Indian Ocean.

Even though I'm an Obama supporter, I didn't support his decision to conduct a raid on the Bin Laden compound without proper notice given to the Pakistan government and their corresponding approval. It was a ballsy move by the President. Luckily, the Pakistan government didn't take action against the US at the UN. It could have created a moment where the whole world stood still.

Thank you for recommending the long list of reading material. I can see that there is a lot of politics going on in that part of the world. Much of it is intertwined with tribal groups, national interests, history, and outside 3rd parties, like the US and our Western allies. It's not clear to me, and most American, I think, why we should be so concerned for these tribes and nations in such a remote part of the world. This area stayed off the front pages for 2000 years and the world barely batted an eye. Frankly, I think the world owes them another 2000 years of anonymity.

I would caution all American Presidents and Diplomats to choose their enemies wisely in this region. Despite all the unsavory things you mentioned about Pakistan, I think we'd rather have them as an ally than enemy. For sure, the same is true for Pakistan. Those things they are doing to undermine the US and our allies in the region must stop. Additionally, the leader of Pakistan must make sure his government is united and acts as one nation, one voice. The sovereign must control his subjects, or give up sovereignty.

In military operations, it isn't always easy to do the polically correct thing. Same could be said about a heroic thing. Nevertheless, our field commanders must learn to quickly assess the risks to the troops vis a vis the overall geo-political risks. For sure, this is a burden no field commander ever wants. Yet I believe the President and the rest of the country will support the field commander who errors on the side of military-political policy, even at the expense of his troops. I know what you are thinking, and yes I am "old guard".

I think diplomatically the US needs to do some mea culpas, and less sabor rattling over this Pakistan border incident where 24 soldiers died. We would expect the same of India had they raided a Pakistan border village and killed 24 Pakistani people. There is no gray area when it comes to violations of sovereignty.

that's just a bunch of propaganda to make people who don't know how to use their brain do anything you want them to

How about posting an educated opinion.

Biteme

I disagree, it's just another reason for us to leave Afghanistan ASAP, and NEVER return.

Chris...Actually, you have some worthwhile opinions that would deserve some consideration if you didn't mix them with bigotry toward gay people during your expression. You lose all credibility as an informed and intelligent individual when you refer to someones higher being as a faggot. Food for thought...nothing more.

"Boarders" live in rooming houses; "borders" separate nations, Chris. Nevertheless, we all enjoyed your gentle message on religious and cultural tolerance!

ltp

...worried the chinese will step in and fund them? who do you think is funding them now thru our debt?

You appear to be having some logic problems, err...difficulties. The debt accounting and financing equation you have so recklessly presented - how do you justify this absurdity? Even more amusing, you have acquired a number of browne points from readers, perhaps as to credit to you jingoist stance rather than on the basis of your financial analysis.

The fact is China is funding US wars abroad, and propping up the US economy at home, by buying US treasury notes till it they are coming out of their wazoo. For one of your understanding it means buying US debt, extending liquidity, so you have the wherewithal to buy groceries - Cash.

Without this Chinese larges, the US would be just another homeless pauper nation sheltering under the bridge, scavenging for scraps, shivering in the cold, children with no medicine - destitution you can not as yet imagine.

Now please tell us where did you acquire this financial acumen, and the epiphany that led you to this breakthrough analysis?

[PS: If you are an average representative specimen of American ingenuity and intellect, China and Pakistan have nothing to worry...Roman citizens spoke with similar ignorance and arrogance as sampled on these posts hers - before the Fall!].

That was wonderfully sarcastic, Tommy. Truly was funny as hell!

Canon:

Thanks. Bu no thanks. Indian like China is focussed on economics. India does not want to go fighting all over the world. India knows there are bad people in the world. There are murderers and rapist in all coutnries. But that is not reason enought to take antions to war.

For US, wars are addiction. They are not logical when we have to borrow from China whom we fear to kill some thugs and spend Hudnreds of Billions in doing so.

I understand Raj, just because some other country allows terrorists to come into one of your major cities and kill dozens of people in a shoot em up is no reason to defend yourselves.

RAJ...These people have been killing each other for centuries over their religious sects and you call us "addicted to war?" No, we are not addicted to war. Our politicians are just too deep in the pockets of defense contractors. It is about money, not war in America. War profiteers are doing well. Your average American Joe/Jane Citizen just wants a job that will support his family and allow him/her to go fishing once in awhile. When I was in the Kosovo refugee camps, I saw a culture of war. For our kids, getting your driver's license and getting laid are the two most common "rites of passage." For people who are truly addicted to war, it is getting your first kill. There are exceptions, like the gang stuff, but for the average American...We just want a day's work for a day's pay.

Lots of Politicaisans needs cold hard cash. Even Obama talks one way about bankers and Wall Streets and talks differently when he meets them at fundraising in private.

Of course we do not lie, cheat. That famous soldier, A good ball player was killed by our own forces and Army lied and colvered up. We are Americans, we are pure and will not lie.

RAJ...There is a difference between being lied to an being the politician that is lying. Pakistan also needs cold hard cash...Most of us do, in fact. The problem is that Americans are being lead astray by the propaganda that we get. It is hard to know who to believe. To imply that we think we are "pure and do not lie" is insulting as well as inaccurate. Your bigotry is showing. You lump all Americans into a group of liars, cheaters, and arrogant purist. Most of us are pretty much just average--as good as most and better than some.

mofo stop using raj patel as your alias .. .. you scum bag paki..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patel

Thats because they are planning to wipe Pakistan off the map.

That just about sums it up. As important as it was that the world rid itself of Bin Laden, Pakistan let him vacation there. And we give those guys money.....regardless of how you feel about our military policy, giving them aid is a difficult position to defend.

They've been allowing a US airbase in their country - how is that not cooperation?

They havent been allowing it for free. They've been charging billions of dollars. To me, that's barely co-operation. And the article said they wanted all U.S. soldiers out of Pakistan now. I guess that's cooperation.

@ Brent,

an airbase.... really?? Don't forget the 2 "roads" NATO uses for supplies to Iraq... Maybe if they were actually "cooperating" with the US, their troops wouldn't have gotten killed... You know, like actually letting us know where your troops are on a map, instead of SURPRISE, DON'T SHOOT - IT'S US AND WE SHOULDN'T BE HERE!!!

The Air Base: They got it for free - sub lease from AbuDabhi/Emirates but broke the covenant in its use...

Bobby: Detailed maps were indeed supplied to the US. An important 'anger' point for the Pakis...oh the humanity!

You can lump Bush in on that comment too! He know just as well as Obama we are getting played...

You are a lump, airborne..........Bush ain't got his hands on my tax dollars anymore. Just obama to blame now...........Wise up, lump.

Typical troll! Bush or any other pres is no longer in office so they can't possibly be to blame as well . How convenient for you! MORON!

Only moron here is you. Bush got all the blame he deserves. Read my post, moron. Bush can't give away any more of my tax dollars now. MORON. Can you read troll moron? airborne virus is what you are........

Okay Retired,

The Pakistan Army is a highly trained, professional force. They are within their rights to defend their borders from infidels. Any military organization conducting secret clandestine commando raids near any border should be well briefed on what's on the other side of that border. If you fail to advise your allies of your clandestine operations near their border, then you should expect incoming from them. Just because your allies piss you off, doesn't mean you can launch an airstrike on them.

The Chinese have given NATO the US proper warning to be careful in their region of the world. NATO and the US would be wise to heed these warnings and respect sovereign rights in the region. Besides, NATO should spend its time making the North Atlantic safe for democracy and stay out of Asia.

Besides, NATO should spend its time making the North Atlantic safe for democracy and stay out of Asia.

Once the real threats stop coming out of Asia, we might just take you up on that.

It is more likely that CIA contractors and US connected military officials who are doing the profiting. Some of the Taliban are attached to the Pak army and are attempting to annex Afghanistan. Some Taliban want an independent Pashtunistan (Northern Pakistan and Southern Afghanistan); Pakistan is at war with this specific Taliban faction. Any NATO efforts in Afghanistan should exclude the Pashtuns (including, above all, Pres. Karzai).