The only thing that bothers me about these "occupiers" is that they are supposed to be the "educated class"...I expect dumb from dumb, this can only be described as willful idiocy...the driving force behind the "99%" is the true "1%" (people who make millions per year to flap their gums in front of TV cameras or toss balls around)...agriculture doesn't exist without transportation, service sector doesn't exist without manufacturing, small business doesn't exist without big business and the mail clerk doesn't exist without the CEO

Come on People...You Must be smarter than this

you fight slave labor with slave labor most are still here, what ever it takes to compete-true capitalism at work-make it happen vote tea party were takin america back!!

They are sick and tire of corrupts politicians. Well ,who will be their elected officials who represent them , who are their candidates , because if they believe in democracy that is the only way to make changes in electionday like Tea Party did, taking out of power people like Pelosi who increase the wealth from $ 25 millions to $ 35 millions in 1 year, but I think they are just a group of Bolsheviks anarchist ploting for revolution, they don't beleive democracy they want a communist regime to steal the wealth from the evil rich.

"Inherently, in asking for demands, you are accepting that there is a power greater than yourself, which is something that this movement is categorically against," Patrick Bruner, a 23-year-old protester, told the group. "This movement is founded on autonomous action and collective wisdom."

This is my favorite quote from the entire article! You CANNOT rely soley on self and operate from collective wisdom. Please young Patrick Bruner take a look at how our founding fathers worked for long hard months to put together the Constitution. If you use "collective wisdom" then it means that the "self" must make concessions for the better of everyone! These people are nothing but anarchists, socialists, communists, angry, bitter, and lazy people that just so happened to show up at the same time. When will the media stop giving this SMALL GROUP of people headlines? So what. . .a few thousand of people around an entire country of 350 million camp out making no demands except "give us free stuff" and this demands this much attention? Elect leaders within yourself, put forth a coherent agenda, get a leader(s) elected to congress. . .it is that simple. Until then please STOP leaving your urine and other bodily fluids all over our parks in this wonderful nation.

"What do we want, and when do we want it?"

"What do we want, and when do we want it?"

"What do we want, and when do we want it?"

"What do we want, and when do we want it?"

The OWS is in no position to make "demands". The 98% of this so-called 99% demand that they go clean up the mess they made in their camps, pay for damages for which they are responsible, pay their fines for being criminals, take a bath, put on clean clothes, and work to support themselves. No one "owes" the OWS anything except to be arrested and put in prison (at their cost). The OWS has forced people to loose their jobs and forced small businesses to close. It's the OWS that "OWES" those people. My guess is that the majority of the OWS voted for the equally worthless O'Bama (and will probably vote for him again). The OWS forgets that the very system that they are against is the same system that allowed them to be able to hold the Country hostage for 2 months. If anything, the politicians are spineless individuals who pandered to the OWS for the almghty "Vote". In any other country in the world they would have been imprisoned or worst. If the OWS doesn't like what they have they should vote those politicians out of office and not vote for them again. When all is said and done - the OWS are worthless pieces of what we flush away.

America already has a great social support system to fall back to during hard times. People will always have a place to live and food to eat.

It's easy to get excited and go to these protests, but why would so many people waste their time?

Be making demands you believe you have some kind of power. You don't.

Two things:

1. What if the Tea Party embraced the Occupy movement? Aren't they on the same page in multiple areas?

2. The Occupiers will have to some day realize they are a piece of the puzzle, not the whole game:

"Inherently, in asking for demands, you are accepting that there is a power greater than yourself, which is something that this movement is categorically against,"

bsalikh...Oh really? And what exactly are those things Americans have to fall back on?

The OWS is fighting for something every American should be scared witless about....the destruction of their democracy. That is exactly what Wall Street and the 1% are intent on doing.

That BS that they are just doing what all capitalists do is just that BS. Madoff, Ebbers, Icahn, Murdoch, Kozlowski, Abramoff, Ken Lay and his Shill in Chief Skilling...these are men who skanked to get where they are. Some of whom are now where they deserve to be...in prison.

The OWS is fighting to keep a democracy that has veered so far off course and it's all due to right wing supremacy dictating what is and isn't "capitalism". How is ripping off $62 billion and counting from trusting investors "capitalism"?

The Founding Fathers are rolling in their graves over what some greedy politicans are doing to this country.

There is NO sense of entitlement among the Middle Class. How can there be when every day of their lives another price gouging ahole helps himself to another chunk of their paychecks all in the name of their god MONEY?

If we pay for something, we have the right to expect to get what we pay for. Try that with rich asses and see how fast the pigs squeal when they don't get what they paid for. Is that their sense of entitlement squealing like stuck pigs?

These people didn't earn their wealth. Most of those who got that way are psychopaths who stop at nothing for the almighty dollar up to and including destroying this democracy.

Any stupid who can't see that's what the real agenda is, needs to rethink their priorities.

Americans day after day listen to another greed rip off. Should this be ignored? Why aren't these pigs in prison with the rest of the slop of society? Instead, they get to "settle". How is that justice for their crimes? Or is their privilege of wealth also an infinite escape from accountability for their wreckless decisions?

ROFLMAO...Good luck OWS....From NYC to Berkley nothing but a bunch of jaded retirees on pensions and rich college kids who are being taken care of by thier parents. And none of them can afgree on anything. I can name 3 things that are going to end OWS....December, January, February. Meanwhile the rest of us will continue to work our asses off and pay taxes and SS.

ewent -

The OWS is fighting to keep a democracy that has veered so far off course....

The United States is not and never was a democracy. It is a Republic. It even says so in the Pledge of Allegiance.

Dear OWS Nuts:

How many people died of drug overdoses at Tea Party rallies/protests?

How many people were killed at Tea Party rallies/protests?

How many people pee’d, threw-up and pooped in public at Tea Party rallies/protests?

How many people were arrested at Tea Party rallies/protests?

How many people were raped at Tea Party rallies/protests?

How many people threatened to fire-bomb Banks, buildings, and even entire cities at Tea Party rallies/protests?

How many people used foul, disgusting language to express their grievances at Tea Party rallies/protests?

Pop Quiz for OWS Nuts…

Two seperate political rallies are being held on the Mall in Washington D.C. One is a Tea Party rally, the other is an Occupy rally. Which rally site is cleaner after their rally than they found it?

Hint: It ain’t the OWS low-lifes!

Ewwwent....Your wrong crack pot we're both a republic and a democracy. The terms refer to the type of body our states reside under and the type of institution we are governed by. Reading the constitution is one thing. Interpreting it correctly and not twisting it to suit your hater views is another thing

killerteam...I'm hugely employed. But nice try. I'm what Bush once called "Uniquely American"....people who work three jobs and are effing fed up seeing it all help those who need no help.

Looks like KillerTeam is defending the indefensible by using that fine old right wing tactic of refocusing blame.

A little off subject, but I noticed in the pictures all these people are white, not one minority among the them. Are they and the Tea Party racist? ;)

ewent -

In a true democracy, only the majority has power. In a republic, the minority also has a voice. We see this daily in Congress.

From John Stuart Mill, a republic protects us from the "tyranny of the majority", so that the dissenting minority will not be oppressed.

The United States is a Federal (powers reserved for the states) Constitutional (powers are separated, rights are garunteed) Republic (elected officials represent both the minority and majority in legislation.)

This is all information found in a middle school history textbook. My brother teaches history at a Catholic School.

I thought "what they wanted" was obvious: Fix what pisses us off.

Get rid of big-money influencing in politics. Big money drives corruption and will rip us apart.

Drive ethics and good sense into Wall Street and business. We've lost our view of what's right and of the long term.

Listen to "people as people", not "people as corporations". Do we really want to be driven only by profits?

Stop the 24/7 propaganda machines by inserting some integrity and real facts. These machines are dividing us further every day... at no one's gain.

Cooperate in Congress and seriously (not politically) focus on jobs... violating ideology is okay, but do something.

People are pissed because we, as a country and as a people, have lost our way and are mired in our own mud. We make it, we sling it, we believe it.

What do "we" want? Stop the BS... you know what it is. It's everywhere and it stinks.

Ewent, the United States is a republic and that has nothing to do with the republican party. At least do a Google search before you lecture people about the founding fathers. From the Federalist:

The United States is, indeed, a republic, not a democracy. Accurately defined, a democracy is a form of government in which the people decide policy matters directly--through town hall meetings or by voting on ballot initiatives and referendums. A republic, on the other hand, is a system in which the people choose representatives who, in turn, make policy decisions on their behalf. The Framers of the Constitution were altogether fearful of pure democracy. Everything they read and studied taught them that pure democracies "have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths" (Federalist No. 10).

Demands? Really? How about: 'Hey pal, this is a stick-up'.

You more or less had our attention once and then promptly screwed yourselves with bs and nonsense.

Pyrrhic Victory...So what you are saying is there is no democracy in this country? Read your Constitution. First of all, if you cannot see the dangers in giving the minority as much authority as the majority, then I'd suggest you look up another word, "plutocracy". That's when a too powerful minority of too wealthy people force others into becoming a serfdom.

The minority has a right to a voice. They do not have a right to impose their minority views and wills on the majority. That's about as stupid as it needs to get. Why bother to have elections if the minority is so protected that they can impose their wills on the majority?

I am fully knowledgeable, perhaps more than most, about our government. I have no need to be taught what I learned in two very excellent US schools. I love how all the intellectual snobs in this country play arm chair teachers of others merely for insult value.

I'm beginning to believe that we now have a tiny "minority" of control freaks in this country hellbent on inflicting their will on the rest of us. Sorry, that won't work.

OWS is the true 1%. The 99% rest of America is smarter than that. These people are fools and hippy wannabe's.

Just over a week later, the demands working group – one of more than 80 groups formed to tackle topics like alternative currencies, political and electoral reform, trade justice and tactics – began trying to come up with some specific aims.

So this group actually believes they can usher in things like alternative currency with no structure within the group? It becomes more apparent everyday to everyone with a brain that the core of this group is a bunch of delusional nutjobs. They live in their little "tent world" and have come to believe that because it is the totality of THEIR world, it is relevant outside of their world.

To the OWS crowd, please understand that the rest of America looks upon you with a mixture of amusement, apathy, and contempt. You are like children who "form a club" and make all sorts of plans for it while your parents smile, knowing that in a week the club will be gone and forgotten. You have no power and no seat at the table of power, and your tactics of disrupting transportation and commerce will get you nothing but MORE contempt from your fellow citizens whose lives you disrupt. Even the democrats who came out in support of you at the beginning have grown tired of your antics, and are disassociating themselves with this movement as its aimlessness becomes more and more obvious.

If you REALLY want to accomplish something, find a way to work within the system. If your goals have merit, they will resonate with enough citizens to allow you to get some OWS candidates elected. Then you will have a seat at the table and can exert a real voice. The tactic of short-cutting the system by just taking to the streets may work in a country where the government is hanging by a thread, but you simply don't have the support of enough people in this country to make that happen.

I know you all hate the tea party, but you could learn from them. They assessed what they wanted to accomplish, clearly articulated their positions, and then worked to garner support. They were able to then recruit candidates who shared their views and get enough people to vote for them to put them into office. They are are a political force and are actually able to help shape policy. In short, the tea party has successfully "occupied congress" by being able to legally plant their ideals inside of it. I am sure that bugs the heck out of you, but you could employ the same tactics.

brian-1077790 - you have NO IDEA how right you are with regard to these folks twisting the constitution to read as they seem fit! I hopped on the OccupyMN facebook page yesterday to let these "wonderful individuals" know they are violating the constitution by not peaceably assembling. You know what part of the constitution they are paying attention to? The words "Congress shall make no law"... That's IT! The ONLY part they are reading. I also kindly asked them to rework their numbers, it's not 99% they're truly representing, the numbers work out to be less than 1%. I also informed everyone I am financially part of their assumed "99%" but don't want ANYONE to think for one second these people represent me or what I believe in. This is the response I received from one of the people brave enough to respond to my original post (letting them know people are tired of seeing public resources wasted on babysitting a group of people who should really know better):

"When i read the individual work of the Founding Fathers it seems pretty clear that when they said " Congress shal make no law" ,they absolutely meant it. Laws are necessary to civilized society, so is standing up against unjust or repressive laws that limmit any of the rights we were lucky enough to inherit from our forefathers. The truth is, they would have burnt @!$%# down along time agoe, they believed in the rights they laid out, and they expected people to use them."

It was at this point I gave up, it's like trying to get milk from a bull to point out these fools are NOT within the terms of the constitution or the parameters of the law... I recommend other people they assume are part of their 99% hit your local Occupy website and social media pages to let them know they do NOT represent you!! Maybe they'll wake up!

LMartT,

Well said. I can finally say that I 100% back you (today).

Ewent, chill pill. Don't let these young ideological people get to you. Although we typically live on different sides of an argument, I really like it when you use your background in writing to articulate your points. Being someone who is not a good writer makes me enjoy great authors.

As far as my take on OWS goes, they need to move from an obscure message to a solidified one. Even if it costs them membership numbers. At this juncture, without pure defined goals, they will start losing one person at a time. Whether to employment or lack of resilience.

And, although they have every right to do what they are doing now, if that group shuts down the NYC subway as they state, they should be disbanded. Once one group interferes with another's right to exist, it should end. Until that happens, more power to the OWS.

I still want to know if any of these "Occupiers" voted

Where were these people when Ralph Nader was running for president? He promised to to almost everything they are asking for!

If you really want to protest - vote!!! This way I can hear your voice.

LMarcT -

Get rid of big-money influencing in politics.

You (and OWS) have it backwards; you are protesting the symptom, not the source of the problem. Politicians need to be ethical enough to keep big money interests from influencing them. There will always be big money. Since they are supposed to be in charge, it is up to our representatives to shun big money and do what is best for the country. The protest against Wall St. is misguided. They should direct their anger toward the big, corrupt, government machine that allows for these things to happen.

Unfortunately, being a politician is no longer viewed as doing a service to the country; it is now a career path. The government plays favorites (depends on the party as to who the favorites are) and as a result, we get corruption and big money influences. The government needs to stop playing favorites and level the playing field for everyone. It should not decide winners and losers. Since the government is in power, it is their responsibility to ignore the big money lobby on both sides of the aisle.

People have gotten so dependent and lack any kind of self respect. They think that the Government should provide them with everything. News flash douchebags! The government doesn’t produce squat or make a f-in penny! Everything they give is made of the sweat, blood and tears of people that earn a living. Don’t even get me started on that Occupy bunch. They are f-in clueless. You’re aren’t going to get a decent job with a neck tatt and piercings rivaling a tribesman from Borneo! Taking seven years of French Literature isn’t going to give you a skillset to land a job that will pay the bills. Loan forgiveness? Try paying back your loan with a JOB! Housing woes? Banks are the evil villains? Who is the retard that took an interest only loan out on that home? Then to add fuel to the fire, they took out ANOTHER loan on the supposed “equity” of the home in the short term, hyper inflated housing market. HELLO? McFLY? Then they expect the rest of the tax payers to bail them out? WTF? I’m barely making my bills and some lazy ass getting his 2nd year of unemployment playing xbox all day gets MY tax dollar? Screw that. Remember that kids story, the three little pigs? The older I get the more relevant that story is to me.

This quote sums things up very well -

"I'm sure everyone feels sorry for the individual who has fallen by the wayside or who can't keep up in our competitive society, but my own compassion goes beyond that to the millions of unsung men and women who get up every morning, send the kids to school, go to work, try and keep up the payments on their house, pay exorbitant taxes to make possible compassion for the less fortunate, and as a result have to sacrifice many of their own desires and dreams and hopes. Government owes them something better than always finding a new way to make them share the fruit of their toils with others." Ronald Reagan

Well...waddauknow...

Leaderless and can't agree on anything, wrecking parks, making demands of others hard-earned money, lawless, homeless vagrants.

Who didn't have this figured out a couple months ago????

Surprise surprise surprise

flash8

Hint: It ain’t the OWS low-lifes!

So the young and old people, college students and war vets are all low lifes? ROFL! What puts you above them? It certainly isnt your intelligence.

NEW YORK — As the "Occupy Wall Street" protest enters its third month, members are wrestling with an issue as old as the Athenians who first hatched the idea of democracy around 500 B.C.: Should we issue a set of demands and, if so, what should they be?

It is better to work these things out before you start pissing and @!$%#ting all over the place.

Pyrrhic Victory

You (and OWS) have it backwards; you are protesting the symptom, not the source of the problem. Politicians need to be ethical enough to keep big money interests from influencing them.

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. It needs to legislated. I wish it were so easy as to just wish "they" would stop being influenced and start being ethical, but that hasn't worked too well, has it?

Yes, politicians need to be ethical. But just as with Wall Street and with business, some things just need to be regulated. "Trust" isn't the issue... "money corrupts" is the truism here.

Mark.

The difference between your generation and the younger generation is you guys knew how and why to save money. You also understood the benefit of responsibility.

The younger generations have been so used to having what they wanted and never knew the benefit of hard work and accountability. These qualities bring happiness, not a list of demands.

Life isn't easy and people need to plan for it. You can be assured most of these protesters never had a plan for their life.

Lets clarify just going to college and getting any degree does not constitute planning. Most people don't even use the degree they receive, they breezed through college and expected someone to just give them a job.

This recession was needed. Just as the great depression taught people the need to save money, this recession will do the same again.

Perfect Mike I totally agree! Anyone else have a problem with this persons title? Go back to mother Russia. And stop taking my tax dollars. OWS is nothing but a leech on us paying working class stiffs.

We no longer have a central … organized space so we need a demand to carry on like what kind of the symbolism of the park once did to some degree. It’s really got to go to the community now,” said McMillan, 23, who also is northeast regional organizer for the Democratic Socialists of America.

ewent -

So what you are saying is there is no democracy in this country?

By definition, no, there is no democracy nor should there be any. We are free to elect the representatives of our choosing in this republic. A true democracy often descends into "mob rule" where the majority rule and the minority have no voice and are opressed, as seen in Antiquity (Athens, Corinth, Syracuse).

The minority has a right to a voice

Yes.

They do not have a right to impose their minority views and wills on the majority.

This is also known as a power struggle. We have methods built into the system to usurp this however: see the referendum in Ohio against Obamacare and for collective bargaining for public workers.

I love how all the intellectual snobs in this country play arm chair teachers of others merely for insult value.

The irony........

All you have to do is see who stands up for the OWS crowd and that will tell you if it is constructive or not. Barack Hussein Obama stood up for them, along with Nancy Pelosi, and Iran, Russia, and other communist states. I guess that pretty much answers who supports this group of idiots. While i do not condone what goes on that is illegal or harms us, protesting by sh!tting in the street, doing drugs, raping women (and men), stoning cops, is not considered a very good way. Actually these protesters for the most part dont know what they are even protesting for by the interrogations i have heard.... For the most part though, they want the same thing Obama wants.... to take from the people that work hard, and give to the people that will never work. In other words they want Free stuff without working for it..... Socialism. I wish they would watch Greece and Europe to know that Socialism does not work, because eventually you run out of other peoples money.

Like Rome( give or take a few periods), The United States is a Republic. The 50% + 1 mentality is not always a good one. Greece was a pure democracy. The Romans didn't want any of that "majority voting people out of the country" nonsense. 50% + 1 can't decide to take away my life, liberty, or property because I paint my house pink. If the US was 49.9% Martian in thought, then they would never really have a say in absolutely anything at all as they would never be strong enough anywhere to be represented. This is also why the President is elected by the States, and not by popular vote. It's hard for a lot to grasp that a system can actually put in place leaders without a majority vote by person because we're raised to believe that that what 50% + 1 wants, then the 100% should get. This is also why the Republican party was formed with the intent to abolish slavery. As a citizen,and a man/woman, you have rights that no man weak or strong, or no group, 1% or 99%, can deny.

LMarcT -

It needs to legislated.

Ban lobbying? Term Limits?

"Trust" isn't the issue... "money corrupts" is the truism here.

Herein lies the problem with a big centralized government; it is very rich and controls a large percentage of the country's GDP. What is the biggest and most wealthy "corporation" on the planet? That would be the US government. And you bet your ass that big money interests (unions, big oil, green energy, banks, etc.) want a piece of that pie. Since it is the government that controls its own coffers, it is up to them to ensure that it doesn't go to it's big money supporters. Can we do this through legislation? Hopefully. The bigger question here would be whether or not our representatives have the balls to draft such a bill.

http://www.thisiswhyweoccupy.org

As the "Occupy Wall Street" protest enters its third month, members are wrestling with an issue as old as the Athenians who first hatched the idea of democracy around 500 B.C.: Should we issue a set of demands and, if so, what should they be?

Let me help you poor lost souls.

There’s another true grass-roots movement, millions strong and focused on very simple demands, that you may be familiar with. They have 4 Core Values they promote.

1. Taxed enough already.
2. Constitutionally limited government.
3. Fiscal responsibility.
4. True free-market principles.

See? Very simple, very specific.

But opponents argue that not making demands will strengthen the “Occupy” cause by keeping all options on the table, including the sort of systematic changes that they believe are needed to address the economic inequalities that are at the core of their anger. (Emphasis mine)

So, specifically what ARE these systematic changes that are needed? Just blathering about “change” has no meaning whatsoever as we saw from our current POTUS and his empty nonsense of change.

“In all these discussions about demands (the central issue) is, ‘Where … should this movement go?”

First of all, you should all go home and take a bath. This notion about “occupying” is ridiculous. All you have done is exposed your radicalism and violence that real Americans abhor. Next, you need to realize that your “anger” is misdirected. The banks did nothing illegal. They may have done immoral things but there is no law against that. When our government opens the door with 72,000 pages of tax code and 155,000 pages of regulations that can be manipulated and abused your “anger” should be directed at the rule makers. Every single day one or more tax codes are changed. Our massive and irrational regulations cost businesses, mostly the 89% that are small businesses with less than 20 employees, over $1.75 Trillion dollars every year. Our deficit this year is $1.65 Trillion dollars.

Coincidence?

Your “Principles of Solidarity” are dysfunctional at best. First of all you base them on a Democracy. We are a Republic. Until you realize the two arenot only totally dissimilar, they are antithetical, you are lost in your confusion. Your Principles ask for collective responsibility and then you demand recognizing the individuals’ inherent privileges. This makes no sense whatsoever. Only a Republic guarantees the individual his inherent Rights over those of the Majority. This is why the Framer’s warned us about the “excesses of democracy”.

Patrick Bruner, a 23-year-old protester, told the group. "This movement is founded on autonomous action and collective wisdom."

HUH?

How can you have individual autonomy based on the collective wisdom? This is the main failure of socialism we see collapsing in Europe. Individual autonomy does NOT come from a collective, government or any other group, it comes from your God given Rights. These are described and protected in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitutions Bill of Rights. You need to reeducate yourselves in these documents and realize what you really want has been bastardized for nearly 100 years by Progressivism.

The United States is a Democratic Republic.

"Republic. That form of government in which the powers of sovereignty are vested in the people and are exercised by the people, either directly, or through representatives chosen by the people, to whome those powers are specially delegated. [NOTE: The word "people" may be either plural or singular. In a republic the group only has advisory powers; the sovereign individual is free to reject the majority group-think. USA/exception: if 100% of a jury convicts, then the individual loses sovereignty and is subject to group-think as in a democracy.]

Democracy. That form of government in which the sovereign power resides in and is exercised by the whole body of free citizens directly or indirectly through a system of representation, as distinguished from a monarchy, aristocracy, or oligarchy. [NOTE: In a pure democracy, 51% beats 49%. In other words, the minority has no rights. The minority only has those privileges granted by the dictatorship of the majority.]...

...The Constitution guarantees to every state a Republican form of government (Art. 4, Sec. 4). No state may join the United States unless it is a Republic. Our Republic is one dedicated to "liberty and justice for all." Minority individual rights are the priority. The people have natural rights instead of civil rights. The people are protected by the Bill of Rights from the majority. One vote in a jury can stop all of the majority from depriving any one of the people of his rights; this would not be so if the United States were a democracy. (see People's rights vs Citizens' rights)...

...In a pure democracy 51 beats 49[%]. In a democracy there is no such thing as a significant minority: there are no minority rights except civil rights (privileges) granted by a condescending majority. Only five of the U.S. Constitution's first ten amendments apply to Citizens of the United States. Simply stated, a democracy is a dictatorship of the majority. Socrates was executed by a democracy: though he harmed no one, the majority found him intolerable."

'ewent', you seem to be the perfect example of what the majority of Americans see in the OWS movement.....People who, when offered factual information that refutes their contentions, stomp their verbal or literary feet, bunch up their fists and say 'NO YOU GOT IT ALL WRONG !'.......'Pyrrhic Victory' clearly explained exactly what a democratic republic is, yet you continue to argue that it isn't so....

....We the People vote (democracy) for the people we want to represent us (republic) in making decisions.....If that isn't the United States of America you woke up in this morning, learned about in school, and believe in, so be it.....say so....If your contention is that it is DESIGNED to work that way, but doesn't, so be it....say so...

...But, to argue that the US was intended and designed solely as a democracy is false.....

FreedomRingsLoud,

Well written and explained.

Seems people in these protest are just not happy with themselves and won't rest until everyone is unhappy. My favorite part is how they tried to cloak themselves as 99% of us.

If they are going to make demands, they better be willing to back up those demands with actions. Obviously their current actions are not enough to make the change they believe in, so some other actions need to take place if they put forth demands and expect them to be heard.

ewent -

It seems to me that you intend to preach the "popular culture" reference of democracy rather than its true definition.

Democracy as it is often defined is a misnomer, just like the "republic" in the People's Republic of China. I also find it amusing when people liken Republican economic policies to Nazism, where the truth is that Nazi Germany had a planned economy similar to that of the Soviet Union.

Mr. Phea, Oskar, Jeff, Joe B., Flash, Terry: I think everyone reading your posts understands how you feel about the protesters. Everyone has a right to their opinion. What I truly do not understand is all the anger and all the insults. "idiots, Bolsheviks, angry, bitter, lazy, worthless, nuts, fools and hippy wannabes." You know nothing about me-you know nothing about my life. And yet the spiteful insults, the close mindedness, the derogatory comments continue. If this is an example of the way you DISCUSS matters then whats the point of having a discussion? There have been SOME actions and words used by SOME of the protestors that I dont agree with but that does not mean we are all lazy, (I started working at 16 and now because of the recession I will probably need a job untill I die) we are all stupid, we are all worthless, we are all dirty hippies. Please-tell me why you are so angry? Do you feel threatened? By what? Are you afraid? By who? Why all the hate? Why do you hate people who disagree with you so much? Why all the name calling? Seriously-I just dont get it.

When will the media stop giving this SMALL GROUP of people headlines? So what. . .a few thousand of people around an entire country of 350 million camp out making no demands except "give us free stuff" and this demands this much attention?

If the group is so small, why do you even concern yourself with it? That's right....because Fox news, Hannity and Limbaugh tell you to.

There's been protest, civil disobedience, and assembly since this country was founded. It's no mystery to me why the right wing Republican party has been trying to discredit OWS since it began. You're scared of them disrupting the rich elite so they won't be able to rape the country and their lemmings won't get their crumbs.

ewent

Did you think the Founding Fathers sat around discussing the Republic when they chose to formulate a Constitution?

You realize that nowhere in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution is the word Democracy used.

However in Article 4, Section 3, Clause 1 you find this.

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government,

You and many others have been indoctrinated in the Democracy mentality.

We are a Federal Constitutional Republic with a Representative Democracy.

This means that the federal government of the United States is the national government of the constitutional republic of fifty states that is the United States of America.

The Representative Democracy means we simply have free elections periodically.

You, and many that still don’t understand the difference between a Democracy and a Republic, may benefit reading this article. It’s a little technical but it fully explains what our Framer’s meant by a Republic. There is a huge difference between the type of government and the form of government we are.

lexrex.com/enlightened/AmericanIdeal/aspects/demrep.html

Remember the essential words of Benjamin Franklin.

A Mrs. Powel of Philadelphia asked Benjamin Franklin, "Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?" With no hesitation whatsoever, Franklin responded, "A Republic, Madam, if you can keep it."

It's truly a shame our education system has disintegrated to the level that most Americans don't understand the essentials of our government.

Ewent,

You keep saying to read the Constitution. However, the word "democracy" is nowhere in the Constitution. Perhaps you should read it. Our country is a Republic. True democracy could be interpreted as mob rule (51%). A republic protects the rights of the little guy. Even as little as 1% from the tyranny of the 99%.

"I paid taxes and took care of my responsibility, and I'm struggling," said one marcher, Leah Lackner, 27, who had taken the day off work as a mental health counselor to join the protest. Her sign read: "I played by the rules."

Lackner said she has $90,000 in student loans, a common issue among protesters who say that the 1% of the richest Americans should do more to help those weighed down by student debt, mortgages and other financial burdens.

Poor precious snowflake.."..poor baby. I'm sure she needs help paying for her bad education majoring in Bitterness Studies. Barry, throw an arm around the kids. Maybe she should sue her college? throw a tent over this circus.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/11/occupy-wall-street-marchers-scuffle-with-cops-wall-street-workers.html

Occupiers,

The beauty of this country is you are free to do what you want. So if your not happy and unemployed, or just not happy with your job. Start your own company. Maybe than you will see how hard it really is to keep a company in business.

By your attempts to "shut down" wall street you have admitted you have no idea how hard it is to operate a successful company.

Seriously get together and start companies and run them the way you think it should be done. A reality check would be very advantageous for you.

If you think the stress of supporting and providing for yourself is too much to handle. Wait until you have employees and need to worry about them and their families as well.

If your goals are to change things than do it. Create jobs, be part of a solution not a problem.

If the OWS movement were to disappear off the face of Earth today, they have served a valuable purpose. Their's was a wake-up call to the common working people in this nation and nations around the world. A wake-up call to the millions of decent hard working people that have lost (or are losing) their homes because there are far too few jobs. A wake up call to all that suffer in desperation because far too few hoard most of the planet's resources by hook or crook.

It is also a warning bell to those that would heed it's toll. This is only the first large movement of public protest to right horrible wrongs to the masses. Others will shortly follow to be much larger and have much sharper teeth until things are set right once more. Modern and ancient history proves this to be true.

There are many among the greedy elite that clearly heard this warning. Their glaring disdain and loathing of the protesters by trying to paint them all with a filthy brush is proof enough. It is only a pitiful attempt to delay the inevitable as they busily stuff even more gold in their pockets before the day of reckoning. That day is coming much sooner than they(and their blind sheep) think.

If you really want to protest - vote!!! This way I can hear your voice.

Nail on the head. OWS should promote voter registration, to the point of having voter registration booths at their rallies, and publicize the hell out of it. When the powers that be -- elected officials and big business alike -- start to realize that voters are starting to line up against them, then and only then will they begin to be concerned.

This should be a cornerstone of the movement. Another should be to remove all your money from the Big Banks and put it into small local banks and/or credit unions. So should campaigning to reverse the Supreme Court's "corporations are people too" ruling...because corporations are not people. Keep it focused on these three things and the OWS movement will start turning heads...

Mt friends, It is in fact time to go political. In this system which we all love we have made the statement. Now we a re here. Everyone knows we are here. We must now take power. Power for the betterment of all who are hard working and poor elderly and child. Anything we could accomplish by movement alone has been made. Now it is time to get rid of the two party system.

Tea bagging republicans proved themselves ill equipped to take on Washington. Willfully co opted into the party establishment. We must stand alone in our own ideas and resist corruption from the outside. Bring fourth a true NEW PART to the frey. And let us resist temptation so that all man and woman knows you needn't give in at all. But put fourth change, honor and moral capability to insure that this system of those who have corrupted democracy will not in the end have a day at all let alone there... ; ]

Cheers

TGFD here.

Mark...Your comment #1 is the best I've seen regarding OWS, and I agree with all that you wrote.

OWS's one demand should be to Outlaw Credit Default Swaps, the "naked" variety, the variety that makes-up well-over 90% of those destructive, derivative instruments.

So if your not happy and unemployed, or just not happy with your job. Start your own company.

Yeah...like that's as easy as writing a few words in a discussion forum. Just snap your fingers and presto! a new company is born!

ewent -

Also, do not refer to me as a Republican; I am not. I am an Independent. Please understand that it is myself and the rest of the Independents who will decide the next election.

Think about that before ranting and tossing insults around. It does not further the Democrat Party's causes in my eyes. Rather, it turns me against them. Rule #1....

This is more proof that The MSM (Which includes MSNBC) and the cops support the bankers. The MSM is even trying to tell Occupy Wallstreet how to behave.

Shameful.

This shouldn't be called a 'movement', because it isn't going anywhere.

One thing is for certain...the occupiers suck at math. They absolutely don't represent 99% of Americans.

Geez, they don't even know what they are protesting for! Wouldn't you think it would be a good idea to have a purpose before you protest?

You get the feeling that the occupiers have been waiting around for someone to take the lead and be their voice while they rally behind them. But that would contradict their form of "democracy" where they have no leader and need to wiggle fingers to vote. Catch 22.

These people have no negotiating skills, lack diplomacy, lack persuasiveness, lack credibility and now appear to be desperate to keep their thing going, despite that it is really in fact already dead. How pathetic.

DG W

That's the point, it's much easier to blame everyone else and make demands isn't it? Welcome to the new American way.

So if your not happy and unemployed, or just not happy with your job. Start your own company.

I agree 100%! And I have done it myself. It is the American way for those with a brain and are willing to do the work. For those that aren't willing to make the sacrifice...SHUT UP AND BE GRATEFUL TO HAVE A JOB OR GO WORK SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!

DG_W-

Yeah...like that's as easy as writing a few words in a discussion forum. Just snap your fingers and presto! a new company is born!

What an ignorant comment to make! Yes it takes time but it also takes hard work and brains to start a business. That's the problem. Too many of those who complain about their jobs aren't smart enough OR don't work hard enough to start their own company where they can call the shots. Don't give me crap about not having the money to start a business either. There are millions of people out there who want to invest in good ideas and good people. But you have to show them and prove that you are a good investment! Stop with the excuses!!!!!!!

the question should not be "what they want or demand", the question should be "what they have earned or deserve"....and the answer is "They have earned and deserve to have some young entrepreneur to collect all the news footage and apply facial recognition software and begin a data base of "protesters" for sale to all the fortune 50,000 Companies...that guy will quickly join the "1%"

Every day we read the same articles written slightly different but saying nothing.

Here is the problem.....

"Cecily McMillan, a graduate student in liberal studies who is part of the demands group, said she felt there was no better time for the movement to say what it wants."

Liberal studies? Oh yikes.

Sounds to me like they are having the same issues our congress and other elected officials have... posturing! I want this, if I give you this than you can get that, but if you don't get that I still want this with the stipulation that in the future you can get thas... Makes sense lol

TGFD

OWS's one demand should be to Outlaw Credit Default Swaps, the "naked" variety, the variety that makes-up well-over 90% of those destructive, derivative instruments.

Perhaps we should have been more cavalier in 1994 when Brooksley Born of the CFTC wanted to regulate derivatives which opened the door for the massive CDS fraud that helped collapse our economy 14 years later.

Unfortunately the academics, Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan, Treasury Secretaries Robert Rubin and Lawrence Summers opposed it and ridiculed her efforts.

More embarrassingly, these buffoons are still considered consequential to discussions today.

Once again, the OWS's direction is misguided. The banks did nothing illegal. Immoral? Possibly. There are no laws attainable against immorality however.

The real tangible consequence we should have allowed was to let the "Too Big To Fail" banks to collapse. Then, and only then, would a true significant message be sent to the hierarchy of financial corporatism.

This is NOT rocket science people. It's actually a very easy fix.

Look at the tax structure in the "golden years" say Eisenhower to right before Reagan came in to office. The top tax bracket was give or take 90% minus deductions (of which there were many) so let's just call it 70%. Republicans are always yearning for "the good old days". Let's go ahead and re-institute those tax rates- for everyone.

Next step is to cut our military spending in half. We already have the world's most powerful military, several times over- we dominate the sky, the sea, and the ground, who's forces are increasingly unnecessary.

Next, we eliminate all of the subsidies that are no longer in the national interest: cut all fossil fuel subsidies- (and charge them for the leases they aren't currently paying in the Gulf of Mexico and many of our other oil fields), all farm subsidies and all telecommunication subsidies.

Finally, we eliminate the free money the banks get through the Fed, and demand repayment of all the back door bailouts that the banks received through both the Fed and AIG. And the next time "we the people" bail out a bankrupt bank or any other corporation, we own it- period. All future profits go to the Treasury and not the executives who bankrupted their companies in pursuit of short term gains.

The last thing we need to do is pass a Constitutional Amendment that removes corporate person-hood and publicly finance all campaign activity. It's easier than you think. Most of a campaign's money is spent on TV time. We the people own our airwaves- all we need to do is modify the lease that we give the broadcasters to ensure that each candidate gets equal, free airtime as a condition of the lease.

That's it. No more national debt, no more deficit, no more widely unbalanced distribution of wealth. Of course, none of this will ever happen as long as the moneyed interests are allowed to control the levers of government. Time for a bloodless Revolution people.

Scot,

I like most of your points. However lets focus on getting more people paying taxes, and making government more efficient instead of taking almost all of working peoples paycheck.

Facial recognition seems like another word for Fascism and 666.

Funny thing, I'll bet every one of the protesters will vote.You can count on that.

Watch the Republican election redistricting machine start playing havoc with the vote. They are going down with their money and they can't stop it. It's in the Bible. So all you Christian conservatives read up.Get your chip here, first.

Bobby Jones Bia

Seems people in these protest are just not happy with themselves and won't rest until everyone is unhappy. My favorite part is how they tried to cloak themselves as 99% of us.

More ominously is the degree of "entitlement mentality" they have been indoctrinated in. Their insistence that society be created around the "social and economic justice of the collective" is their principal flaw.

This is simply the delusion they have been brainwashed into that regardless of any contractual agreement, if you feel you don't want to abide by it any longer, you can just walk away from it. We see this paraded in front of us daily as millions of Americans just walk away from their responsibilities when their homes are underwater and they just don't want to play anymore.

Our governments Enumerated Powers demand that contractual agreements are enforced by the strictest rule of law. When we are allowed to abrogate that, willingly, our society must collapse. Contracts used to be agreed upon by a simple handshake between responsible people. Today we have mountains of paperwork, legalese that can be interpreted as needed in a court of law and irresponsibility ruling our land.

This is what happens when we allow government to become so massive that even within its own laws there is no agreement. When we have layer upon layer of Departments, Agencies, Bureaus and Offices, that have no idea what the others are doing, these results are inevitable.

Then when you add the massive corruption in our government, with its self-endowed crony capitalism, the collapse of our economy cannot be viewed as a shock, it had to happen.

This "OWS movement" is nothing more than disillusioned youth and irrational adults who feel society owes them everything they want, not need. Entitlements, social programs and the irresponsibility they create is why our society and economy are failing.

We see what giving a society everything they want creates in Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland, chaos. Responsibility is removed from the individual and heaped on society. When society can no longer support the wants, rather than needs, it must collapse. Socialism, which espouses collectivism, has never succeeded in a society as diverse or as large as ours. Its usual result is deterioration into Marxism, Maoism, Communism or some variation of dictatorship.

LOL! While everyone is arguing about which form of protest they prefer, whether it is OWS or Tea Bag, Pelosi and Boehner are making money off of stock offered by corporate lobbyists to get bills passed. But it is not a 'bribe' under the law, even though every non-politician in the country would go to jail for the same actions.

Scot,

A few comments;

Even JFK thought the tax structure from Eisenhower's time was detrimental to the economy and society as a whole. Also, I believe the 90% tax rate number, after accounting for inflation, would only apply to those making more than $5 million/year, and after all of the tax loopholes were taken, I don't think the effective tax rate was that much higher than it is today (but I'd need to do more research to state for certain).

I agree on cutting military spending by 50%. But, to do this we will need to rework a number of international treaties...not saying we shouldn't, but pointing out it's not a quick/easy change.

I also agree with eliminating most subsidies. I'd go farther and eliminate 95% of the personal income tax subsidies/loopholes - for all income levels.

I believe, with the exception of AIG, the private financial institutions have paid back the money with interest. The car companies still owe money, as do Fannie and Freddie.

I'm completely against the government taking over any more companies. Take a look at Fannie & Freddie for an example of how that can turn out.

While I like campaign finance reform in general, I think it's very tricky in implementation. My 2 concerns are; (1) I don't want the government telling me I can't publically support a candidate - that infringes on my free speech rights, and (2) if we only allow public money to be used in campaigns, it gives a huge advantage to incumbents since they can easily abuse their office to promote themselves via things such as "informational literature on how government is helping the people", public ceremonies, etc.

The debt issue isn't going to be solved without cuts, significantly growing the economy (and tax base), or significant tax increases for the middle and upper class. As an example of the problem, the government estimates Medicare will spend about 3 or 4 Trillion more than expected Medicare tax revenues over the next 10 years. Even if we taxed the top 1% at 100%, we'd still be in the hole.

Agreed Bobby- but efficiency means eliminating the influence of powerful corporations on our government. The VA is efficient because it demands a reduced price for drugs from the pharmaceutical industry based on their purchasing power- we don't do that for Medicare/Medicaid. Efficiency is demanding that Lockheed Martin fix the oxygen system in the F-22 Raptor so our pilots don't pass out after we already spent $66 Billion dollars on the program, instead of allowing them to charge the taxpayer for the fix. Efficiency is eliminating oil subsidies for the most profitable companies in the history of the world. Medicaid or a single-payer system is the most efficient delivery system for healthcare.

We do not need to cut social programs to become solvent and debt free as a nation. Those arguments are a prelude to cutting Social Security and Medicare, that we have all paid into our entire working careers. And the claim that most people don't pay taxes is complete crap. While many of our citizens don't make enough money to pay Federal taxes, they pay a massive amount of tax through property tax, sales tax, fees and licensing and State taxes.

The core of our national problem is the influence of money on our political system. Fix that root cause of the cancer, and we will be able to fix everything else once our representatives actually represent us.

Scot,

On average, most people get far more out of SS and Medicare than they ever paid in. And, for Medicare, that discrepancy is projected to get more and more significant since we haven't really done anything to address medical costs.

As to the VA...I was in the military and spent a month in a hospital in Virginia...I wouldn't wish that level of "care" on anyone. I know there are some good VA hospitals, but my experience is most of them are far below the standard of care you get in most regular hospitals in the US.

Mark - Thanks for a straight up post.

What have the OWS protesters asked to be handed to them for free? This article was about how they have not made any demands.

They are not out there promoting more welfare programs-they are pointing out the economic inequities and that the "tricke down" theory isn't working. If money were trickeling down, the difference between the rich and middle class would not be getting larger.

I walk by the park everyday. I have not seen one sign that says "give me..." or "I want..."

Many are looking for jobs, many are retired. There is, as you may have heard, an unemployment problem in this country. Yes, there are the crazies-but they are in the minority.

I do think that the movement should be less about where to put tents and more about calls to action-none of which involve me getting anything (I am fortunate enough to have a job despite deep layoffs where I work.)

I support reinstating Glass Steagall. I support challenging Citizens United. I support more transparency and oversight of derivatives.Which of these sounds like I want something for free or don't want to work?

The debate has taken on new meaning with this week’s removal of the protest camp at Zuccotti Park. Some in the flagship occupation in the heart of America’s financial sector believe the police action provided them with the perfect moment to put forward specific demands and build support among the so-called “99 percent” of Americans outside the economic elite.

Latest updates: Protesters take to the streets

But opponents argue that not making demands will strengthen the “Occupy” cause by keeping all options on the table, including the sort of systematic changes that they believe are needed to address the economic inequalities that are at the core of their anger.

Nothing like 2 ignorant, opposing views. If after 3 months, they can't decide on even one demand, (As if they have anyone to present their demands to.) they don't have a real cause and need to go home and stop wasting taxpayer money pretending they are doing something.

This "celebration" today smacks of college kids who need a reason to party.

When looking at which movement to support, you need only to look at your own beliefs...

Are you in favor, or against, government subsidies (wasting our money) going to profitable companies that do not need it? Tea Party favors, OWS is against.

Are you in favor, or against, bailouts being used to give bonus checks to CEOs while they lay off more workers? Tea Party favors, OWS is against.

Are you in favor of corrupt lobbyist money from the ruling class controlling regulations (buying laws and elections)? Tea Party in favor, OWS is against.

Do you want the Tea Party's version of "smaller government"... meaning the government tells you what religion to follow, who you are allowed to love, who you can marry, what you can put in your own body, what you can do with your own body, what words you can hear on television? Or do you want the government out of your personal life?

Do you support the Tea Party's goal of INCREASING unemployment by only making spending cuts and laying off hundreds of thousands of more people (public employees)? The Tea Party wants to lay off more people and increase unemployment, OWS wants less unemployment and more jobs.

The basic fundamentals of each party are there, for everyone to see. I may not like the OWS crowd, but they are not nearly as bad as the freedom-killing Tea Party who will increase unemployment and control your personal life. The enemy or my enemy is my friend, thus the OWS movement is my friend.

Ron-1861300 I agree with many of your thoughts. I know that it's not that easy to turn this ship around- but that should be the mission. There is no way that Eisenhower's tax rate, after deductions came close to the 35% rate we have today. If, by your inflationary adjustment, that rate would only apply to $5Million or more, so be it. We can still apply much higher rates to those making $250K or more.

I agree that cutting military expenditures is not as easy as proposing it, but these treaties are re-ratified all the time and change is possible. We should not be supporting bases in Europe and Asia so long after those conflicts have ended. It's just a flat out waste of money.

In the "free market" if you bail out a company, you own that company, and whatever future profits they generate. Why would that be any different when "we the people" do it? And the Fannie / Freddie case is horrific- I agree. They are private / public companies, so all the upside goes to the private side, and all of the downside is assigned to the public.

Saying that increasing the taxes on the 1% won't get us out of the hole we are in is correct- but it is a key component of achieving that goal. Combined with the other measures that I have outlined, it WOULD get us out of the hole.

Scot - thanks for the thoughtful response. I think we differ on a few particulars, but overall I think our views are fairly close.

former-GOP - your comments about the TP don't match with what I hear. To be fair, the TP is comprised of many different people, and each person has their own views. The views I hear are focused on smaller government interference in our daily lives. This means not mandating social issues, handing out corporate subsidies, etc. Yes, there are some TP people that are social conservatives and they've pushed some bills I disagree with, but these points do not appear to be the TP focus to me.

Ron- The "views" of the TP people you speak of DO NOT match the ACTIONS of their elected officials. Their leaders... their politicians... the people they elect to make change have done nothing except push social agenda's.

Their "focus", which you speak of, may make good talking points for people who support them... but look at their actions. I am the type of person who believes that actions speak louder than words. And the only actions I have seen from them are social agenda items which push MORE government into our social lives, and plans aimed directly at laying off government workers. Their belief that the answer to fixing our economy is by increasing unemployment... is beyond comprehension. Words can not express how blatantly stupid this idea is.

You (and OWS) have it backwards; you are protesting the symptom, not the source of the problem. Politicians need to be ethical enough to keep big money interests from influencing them.

That is the problem Pyrrhic, ethical politicians are like unicorns. They do not exist now nor ever will and probably never existed in the first place. Money is the most corrupting element in our society; everyone is affected by it no matter their morals. There is no one alive that would say no to taking a 150,000 pay check for one measly two or three letter word. And the problem with denying it is that it likely has never happened to you. You will not know what you will do in such a situation until it happens. History tells us Politicians are as greedy as the CEO's of the largest corporations themsevles.

The only way to fix the problem is a two pronged attack. Force politicians to not take money via the law while simultaneously blocking political contributions from corporations. Corporations have no voice, they cannot talk. They are not a living entity and show be afforded no rights as such.

I am all for personal donations up to an extent but corporate money in politics is exactly why we are in this mess.

@Steve

As stated above, voting out politicians will do you no good. They are all indefensibly corrupted and likely always will be. Or in other words, until I see a Speaker or Leader ban lobbying outright I will believe that ethical politics is a myth.

Scot H. Nichols

Look at the tax structure in the "golden years" say Eisenhower to right before Reagan came in to office. The top tax bracket was give or take 90% minus deductions (of which there were many) so let's just call it 70%. Republicans are always yearning for "the good old days". Let's go ahead and re-institute those tax rates- for everyone.

You do realize, as can be seen by data from the IRS and Bureau of Economic Analysis, that despite our incessant manipulation of tax-rates our revenue has consistently stayed at about 18% of GDP. The only tax rate increases that have shown to increase revenue are Social Security and Medicare tax rates. The reason is that nearly 50% of Americans pay no Federal income tax. The only taxes that hit all Americans are the SS and Medicare taxes.

Unfortunately, increases in Social Security and Medicare tax rates invariably lead to increases in unemployment rates. These two eventually equalize and revenues stay again at about 18% with a higher unemployment rate.

Actually, if you look at revenues over the past 20 years, this range has been maintained. Even with the Bush tax cuts of 2001 and 2003 revenues rose, post 2001 recession and 9/11, and actually approached the highest rates under the Clinton administration by 2007. Obviously the collapse of our economy has decreased revenues due to massive unemployment and persistent growth stagnation.

What has been creating the $15 Trillion dollar National Debt, $55 Trillion Dollar Total U.S. Debt and $115 Trillion dollars of unfunded liabilities is uncontrolled spending. From the Office of Management and Budget, since 1965, spending has risen constantly (on $2.15 Trillion in revenue vs. $3.77 Trillion of spending). Federal revenues have dropped recently due to the economic recession, but spending has reached a record high.

If tax cuts to the wealthy and corporations were supposed to create jobs-where are these jobs? Why is the gap between the wealthy and middle class getting bigger?

Why are big companies such as AIG allowed to socialize their losses through bailouts and capitilize on their profits? If the American people are going to pay for your mistakes-shouldn't they also benefit from your profits?

Why did I personally pay more in taxes than several large corporations last year, such as NBC Universal? We need to close the loopholes that make this possible.

Banks created this problem. Period. People not paying their mortgages, Freddie and Fannie only had part to do with the collapse of the economy. None of the above forced AIG to write $78 billion in credit default swaps. No one forced banks to invest in their own debt. No one forced the financial industry to create a casino with their funds.

Yet, the banks got bailed out. Meanwhile-the rest of us suffer the results of their bad decisions.

Its true there are problems, always have been, always will be but destroying Democracy over a few bad eggs wont fix that. Socialism is far from the answer, Cecily McMillan age 23 graduate student, Liberal studies, Democratic Socialist party of America, fancy term for Communist. Socialism has been around as long as Democracy (the ancient Spartans invented it) and it didn't work then and it wont work now, if you open your eyes and look at what is going on you will see that we are failing because we already lean to far to the left, there are to many giveaways now they have taped out the working class so now they want the investors and corporate rich, well I agree with some discipline being put into the mix but not Social control. That will destroy what is left of America there is no incentive to move forward in a Socialist Society, and in time 20 to 40 years it will be total financial collapse, and every one will suffer equally. also with Socialism you get big (corrupt) government right in your own living room running every aspect of your life, no thanks to that I'll take free and have what I can earn over broke and controlled by the state. Socialism is for Sheeple it involves handing your free will over to a government to control your life for you. I'm somewhat curious why would anyone go to college to study Liberal Studies (Socialism) and expect there to be a big rewarding job market for it, and who would be so stupid as to listen to any thing someone that stupid would have to say? 23 years old she can't have allot of worldly experience, I wonder if she studied any history or social studies..... they call the Left Leftest and the Right is Right self explanatory. as for corruption we face with our politicians today start demanding some house cleaning and send the Pelosies and the Kerrys to jail along with their Republican counter parts, we still have some control lets raise some hell in Washington DC and get this mess cleaned up, contact your Congressmen/woman and demand justice all we need is a honest judge and some rope, it wouldn't hurt to make our politicians take drug test ether. randomly like they make us do, you want to represent the people piss in the bottle. I'm dead serious about that one! I guess what I'm trying to say is lets just fix what we have it use to work we can make it work again. OWS doesn't speak for me I'll speak for myself thankyou.

If Occupy really wanted to make a difference, they would demand a Constitutional amendment that simply stated corporations can not be people or afforded the same Constitutional rights as people!

USAF Vet-923294

they would demand a Constitutional amendment that simply stated corporations can not be people or afforded the same Constitutional rights as people!

If we agree to that are you willing to also include unions with the same restrictions?

CHALLENGE TO OCCUPY WALL STREET:

Instead of just bitching, come up with 10 concrete reforms to pass. Surely there are 10 things about Wall Street that need changing. Put them on paper. Start a petition and send these to your elected leaders.

"We are the 99%, and we have 99 Demands - most of them mutually exclusive, we are the 99%".

Let's see now - perhaps;

- Free houses.

- Fee food.

- Free college.

- Free cigarettes.

- Free drugs.

- No grades in college.

- Free 3 month vacations - anywhere in the World.

- Free drinks in bars.

- Free time to contemplate my navel.

- No police to tell me what I can't do.

- Free anything else I can think of.

All paid for by the 1%.

PS - And I want it NOW.

Mr.PheaNiques-0000001 "Come on People...You Must be smarter than this"

Don't bet on it.

They don't even comprehend that the basic problem is a lack of jobs and opportunities, so they protest against those that can create jobs, and ignore the people that cause the basic problem - politicians.

ROY WILSON-336103

Where in the article or any article about OWS have you heard them say anything close to what you wrote.

D Buck-2239568 - I walk by the park daily, and have found no one who wants to see the government own industry.

Is wanting the reinstatement of Glass Steagall socialism? Is challenging Citizens United providing anyone a handout?

I am not a member of OWS, but it is because I wish they would focus more on making changes-such as the ones I mentioned than on where to put a tent. However, I wak by the park daily-and had to show ID to get to my office today. In all of these protests, I have not heard one thing that sounded like a request for a handout. They need to be far better at articulating what they want-but the main emphasis I have seen is holding banks accountable for creating the financial mess-which they did through credit default swaps, questioning where the jobs that were to be created through tax breaks to "job creators" are and removing corporate funds from politics. Find the free handout in the above-it is not there.

They are not asking for more welfare. They are not asking for free food or cigarettes or anything else you named. The only thing that they have said that could qualify are student loans. While I think they should have to pay them, I appreciate that-when they took them out-it made sense that they would be able to find a job after college and pay them back (as we all did.) That was before 9% unemployment. No jobs-thanks to the banks- in just about any industry (not just liberal arts) so it is difficult for them to pay said banks the loans back.

UCHUSKY 99 There is some Truth to what they are trying to accomplish. the fact remains the socialist signs are all over the news. they cant come up with a list of what they want above and beyond what you have mentioned and the real culprit is Washington abusing its trust and taking payoffs and inside trading tips. Bad politician's aided these wallstreet tycoons, and bad politician's are what we need to go after, bad policies that removed all the safeguards from the system, example the Bliley act signed by Clinton. look at special trade status for China, free trade disrupting our ability to regulate trade and keep it in perspective if a person was to write everything down that was done to undermine the American people it would take all year so its difficult to get it all into a simple post. so that in mind I'm just stating the energy wasted on OWS would be better spent on repairing the damage the politicians have inflicted on our Nation than disrupting you commuteto work. NY deserves better then this, and so do the other cities if these people want to fix the problem they should come up with a office to work from and do some serious lobbying send a message to Washington that they represent the percent of people they in fact do represent, and get involved the way our system is designed to work then they stand a chance. they are doing it all wrong the best way to fight fire is with fire. So throw away the Socialist signs, get some petitions signed send reps to Washington form their strategy and go for it the way it should be done.

Forgot to ask who the #ell taught these kids, I would want my money back.

Protesters representing a diversity of social, political and economic issues from numerous demographics within the 99 Percent OWS have a number of grievances they want redress to; it's been a long time coming, so can you blame them for NOT focusing on just ONE message?

I'm reposting what another commenter on this 'Vine, posted up on this issue. I invite you to check it out:

FreedomRingsLoud - thank you for the statistics. You make several good points, but neglect to elucidate the spending issue. The 18% of GDP that you are tracking is not a reflection of Social Security / Medicaid/care spending. Your point about people getting more in benefits than they paid in is also incorrect as it does not capture the interest income on the funds deposited into these programs. Yes- some people get more in SS payments than they paid in with absolute figures. The compound interest on money deposited into the system more than accounts for the disparity.

If I pay a dollar into a savings account in 1970, and we know the rule of 7's (that your money will double at an average of every 10 years at 7%), then with compound interest, my dollar becomes $14.97 by the time I need to access it in 2010. That's the whole idea behind maintaining a collective retirement account through Social Security.

So talking about people getting more out than they put in is disingenuous at best, and down right fraudulent at worst. Calling SS and Medicare an "entitlement" is also misleading. We pay into the system throughout our entire working lives, and we are entitled to the proceeds at retirement. Cutting these benefits is UNACCEPTABLE.

Your figures reflect that the Federal government has been borrowing against these funds, not that they unsustainable- and even by the CBO's own accounting, Social Secutity if fully funded through 2037. A simple tweak of applying SS taxes at all income levels fixes the problem completely and forever. Not cutting contributions off at the first $100K of income will fully fund the program in perpetuity.

We are being robbed people- and I can't understand why you all aren't taking to the streets.

Making demands is a pointless exercise. Who will respond to the demands? The government? The business community? The disciples of greed? Presenting demands implies someone or something in society will respond. Who?

Greed has no morals - no ethics - no virtue.
Greed is self serving - without self discipline.
Greed is a parasite - feeding on society.
Greed is its own God ...

The responses are already known - they have been made quite clear.

I work hard, pay my taxes, play by the rules - I have no responsibility.
I risked everything, worked long hours, created my success - I'm entitled.
I am Taxed Enough Already, it's my money - I serve myself first.
I have not done anything illegal - greed is my God.

Our society and our nation is collapsing around us. Greed will not protect us. Demands? It is time to ignore greed before it consumes us.

uchusky99 "ROY WILSON-336103 Where in the article or any article about OWS have you heard them say anything close to what you wrote....They need to be far better at articulating what they want-but the main emphasis I have seen is holding banks accountable for creating the financial mess"

Can't take a joke?

As for the 'cause' of the 'financial mess', you need to look at the "Root Cause", which was the ridiculously loose lending standards the Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac put in place that allowed unqualified people to buy homes they clearly could not afford.

And if you trace the underlying cause of that, just look at the Community Development legislation passed by Clinton, which was used by unscrupulous lawyers to force banks to make loans to unqualified 'poor' people. And who was one of the lead attorneys that sued the banks to force bad loans? None other than Barack H. Obama.

The really funny part of it is that he convinced the liberal media to "Blame Bush", when the reality is that it was partly Obama's doing all along.

If you checked even further, you would find that Bush actually tried for 8 years to stop it.

FreedomRingsLoud "You do realize, as can be seen by data from the IRS and Bureau of Economic Analysis, that despite our incessant manipulation of tax-rates our revenue has consistently stayed at about 18% of GDP."

Under Obama, it has increased to 24% of GDP, and if you include state and local taxes, it's up to about 47% of GDP.

There is a well documented relationship between the level of government spending and economic growth rates (The higher the level of government spending, the lower the economic growth rate and the higher the unemployment rate - The ideal rate is about 20%, but at 60% of GDP, growth essentially stops). Look up the link below;

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://politicsandprosperity.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/rahn-curve-21.jpg%3Fw%3D630%26h%3D386&imgrefurl=http://politicsandprosperity.wordpress.com/2010/11/10/estimating-the-rahn-curve/&h=240&w=392&sz=11&tbnid=0cocNlIeVjDI0M:&tbnh=74&tbnw=121&prev=/search%3Fq%3Drahn%2Bcurve%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=rahn+curve&docid=zQdOROw0SJwm6M&sa=X&ei=U4fFTozZNoaTiAKB-om-BQ&ved=0CFIQ9QEwCA&dur=17429

Protesters are bad, bad, bad. They are worthless freeloaders and scum looking for something for nothing. Their aggressive actions disturb civilized people. They could easily effect change within the system.

Tell that to the original Tea Party in Boston of 1773 that made a real mess of Boston Harbor. They didn't even clean up after themselves! The louts actually started a revolution that 13 tiny American colonies used to stand against the mightiest empire on Earth of that time.

That was the beginning of the most powerful nation on earth today. A nation that is very proud of the many brave protesters and revolutionaries that brought her to life.

Have we forgotten our roots? We are a nation off malcontents always willing to fight at the drop of a hat to assure justice and freedom to pursue happiness for all. How many of us have become lazy and fat Benedict Arnolds willing to sacrifice the American dream to assure our own comfort in life as the powers that be may falsely promise? Far too many!

Choose your side carefully lest you find the same fate as Benedict Arnold. He deserved his fate and you deserve the same by cowardly serving the interest of those that would further enslave you instead of the proud and brave that would set you free. Even at the cost of their very lives. God bless America for those determined to preserve her in all of her glory.

Commonsense--the Boston Tea Party folks had a pretty defined message--no taxation without representation. They made it pretty clear what their demands were, and when King George was unwilling to meet those demands, they ratcheted up from simply demanding representation to demanding complete freedom.

OWS? They can't even decide if they want to issue demands, let alone what those demands are. Sure, we know what they are fighting against, but until we know what they are fighting FOR, they are, well, irrelevant.

It’s going to take a bit but people are at least now starting to talk, think and share and that is a start. We are babies now starting to once again crawl hopefully in time we will be walking and then running. We need to find out who we really want to be, do we feel that true growth and purpose comes from serving or from taking. It’s not about stealing from the rich it’s about fairness over exploitation. If the rich were making there own goods I would say that they deserve to profit fully from what they made, the thing is they are not, others are involved in the process, yet who is waging class warfare if they want to cut the others out and take all the gain for themselves?. I don’t think people are that stupid that they can’t see this, time will tell! we do live in very interesting times with opportunity for success and great failure.

"We are babies learning to crawl' and we are repeating the age old patterns of humanity.

The Daily show covered the economic and intellectual disparity that existed in Zucotti Park. Seems there was the 'ghetto' where the 'poor' protesters were relegated and the 'uptown' protesters, the ones with the latte and laptops, the 'elite' protesters, as it were. The elite protesters were the decision makers. The truly elite ruling class held their meetings in...are you ready....the lobby of Deutschebank. Apparently it is difficult to plan your next move towards equality everything for everybody while sitting in a tent next to an impoverished protester banging on a saucepan.

http://thedailyshow.com "Occupy Wall Street Divided'

mygirl1

You may be interested in seeing how the 1% of the 99% suffer as they "Occupy".

The hypocrisy of the Left never ceases does it?

dailycaller.com/2011/11/02/opulent-homes-of-the-99-percent-slideshow/5-5/

Do you realize mygirl1 that you yourself have a dept of more then $45,000? That's how much every American grown-up and child needs to pay back during the next years. - And about blaming the brave OWS demonstrators of not having a worked out plan for their demands --- Does any one here have such a plan? Even the highest educated and smartest people on earth don't have a finished plane for the World-wide demonstrations. --- The best I have seen comes from the famous Tom Friedman who said:

“Now let me say that in English: the European Union is cracking up. The Arab world is cracking up. China’s growth model is under pressure and America’s credit-driven capitalist model has suffered a warning [major] heart attack and needs a total rethink. Recasting any one of these alone would be huge. Doing all four at once — when the world has never been more interconnected - is mind-boggling. We are again “present at the creation” - but of what?

[Even these deeply insightful words are still questionable. The outcome of any "Creation" can never be predicted, not even by God, that's the nature of "creation". Therefore Friedman’s question: but of what is meaningless.]

that 45,000 dollar figure is based on man woman and child...If you understand that 50+% are not going to contribute a dime into paying off that debt...the real answer is more like 50% of Americans are $90,000 in debt...and it's only going to get worse, as 50% are lying in Hammocks while the rest of us a mowing the lawn, you will never win a vote to ban Hammocks...and in the very near future, those of us who are doing the yard work are going to get very tired of noise complaints from the "Hammock Generation"

Seriously, it's always the parasites on Medicare and Social Security who accuse ME of wanting handouts. I get nothing absolutely from them, while they take money out of my pocket, and somehow I'M the socialist.

@ toasty

It's not the people who occasionally need assistance that risks crashing the system...It is the ever increasing numbers who are completely dependant on the ever decreasing number of providers

As for the 'cause' of the 'financial mess', you need to look at the "Root Cause", which was the ridiculously loose lending standards the Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac put in place that allowed unqualified people to buy homes they clearly could not afford

Roy you need to look at real facts instead of zoning out on Fox news. Ever wonder how people in Hong Kong ended up owning American's mortgages? Does that seem right to you? If you take a mortgage out on a house with a lender you have known to be reputable in the past and your mortgage ends up being sold? Read for real what caused the economic crisis or watch something like "inside Job" and get real facts not partisan crap. And "Inside Job" even says there is plenty of blame to go around. But they explain this and it isn't as simple as your perspective. Bottom line if you drop regulations, the financial institutions including wall street will exploit the crap out of it even if they are watching our country go up in flames as a result of it, they will continue until there is nothing left. Wake up Roy.

That's right, Phea.

Then go take a gander at 'The Warning" on Frontline. That should clue you in a bit. Note that the ignored warnings happened under Clinton's watch. Toasty: I pay for medicare, medicaid and SS. I have to. Soooo, I'm not old enough to collect on something that might go broke that I'm forced to pay into. See a flaw in that little scenario? Then there are adult 'children' collecting SS, not to mention the medicare and medicare frauds costing billions. No one ever seems to talk about that.

I know this is off subject, but I have just read an article about NYPD taking a couple of pizzas and soda away from OWS'ers. My question for the OWS'ers is this: "How is that redistribution of wealth workin' for ya?"

good luck in the federal pen, they will make you out to be a robber and you will get 20 years plus

Support the OWSDemocrat party they are the grassroots , they are an inspiration for Obama and Pelosi , peacefully protesters , no violence, no rapes, no damage to the privatete property, they are a perfect example of democracy , while the Tea Party protesters are a bunch of terrorist and violent group.....or is all the way around oops

Joe

Name calling don't make you smarter it makes you an as#$%^, read the entire comment before to start " typing".

Oskar -

I had to laugh because that is the second time I've seen a poster unable to pick up the blatant sarcasm in your post.

Joe...Is that all righties know how to do when they know they are wrong? Name calling and belittling others? Pretty tireseome that. The right wing in this country are the most to blame for their BS neoconservativism.

Neoconservatism is another word for narcissism. With righties, it's always and only about them. Their favorite tune is Me, Me, Me, Me. Then they go into self-acclimation mode and pretend their wealth was the result of hard work.

How much hard work does it take to rip off consumers with 6 price increases a year on necessities? How much hard work does it take to stiff employees by playing bait and switch and saying a company offers benefits until you are hired and find out the employer pays squat and all of those business expenses are paid by employees? Nice wage stagnation mechanism. Stagnate employees wages, just never reduce Mr. Hotcha CEOs paycheck.

How much hard work does it take to get taxpayers to pay Big Businesses' bills and expense with our hard earned tax dollars?

This is why the Ahole Republicans will go after programs they know Americans pay for through payroll deductions but they won't touch an effing dime of those Big Oil subsidies.

Something wrong with cutting all subsides to obscenely wealthy corporations or is the the Middle Class the major focus of Republican hits these days?

Does anyone expect anything else from a group of worthless rat bastard hippies that @!$%# on the American flag?

Mosin.. Righties have their own flag It's Green and only has dollar signs. Crash, Baby, Crash......that's going to happen and I give it maybe another month.

I will sooooo enjoy watching those pigs turn into carnivores of their own breed. If they aren't doing that already. We'll all just need earplugs once the Biggie Piggies start squealing.

Grassroots? GRASSROOTS?? REALLY??

Where's my Round-up!

Regardless of how much money our politicians have, they're still voted in by the MAJORITY! It just happens to be that the MAJORITY is a more organized group that sticks with one candidate instead of splitting between two. Why is this so hard for people to understand?

Nutjobs... All these extremist groups on the fringe right and left are nutjobs! So far out there they can't see the center any more (yes, the center, where we prosper as a nation - according to Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan.

WHERE IS the "Occupy" response to the Fannie and Freddie (F&F) million-dollar bonuses? This is the real travesty; the taxpayers are on the verge of getting screwed again by the corporate fat-cats and this movement is no where to be seen (because F&F are pawns of the government, which is presently controlled by the Dems).

Listen up "Occupy" people: Get serious and set up camp in front of the White House, until then you won't be taken seriously as a legitimate movement, only as beggars and hippies looking for freebies from Obama's socialist machine.

Nevada Brett...Aw C'mon...Newt has to get paid for his "advice" to Freddie Mac doesn't he? Now, now...none of that wealth redistribution. Newtie has to be paid handsomely for "helping" Freddie Mac and he did it all out of the goodness of his dear charitable little heart....roflmao...The day any Republican ever speaks these words, "I was wrong.", the entire country will go apoplectic.

The middle class is dying. Their homes are gone and if they have a job, it is paying much less than what it was a few years ago. Just a few years ago my neighborhood was very middle class and less than 5% rentals.... now many have lost their homes which have been bought by investors and now the rental rate is just over 40%... all of this in about 5 years!

I agree with what I the OWS is trying to do, but they are so unorganized, even the media's attempt to glorify them has failed and they've become somewhat of a joke!

I'm now a registered Independent and am throwing my support with the Tea Party. They are on the same page as the OWS, but much more organized and with clearer objectives... they don't want anarchy, just decent jobs, less government interference, and reasonable taxes... simple things that our President and Congress don't understand!

"Those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it..."

Give me an example of a country that becomes stronger as a result of OWS type protests!

In Russia when this happened the communists took over! In Argentina the protesters (under Peron) turned a once vibrant and economically sound country into a socialist society that turned the country upside down. Argentina has never recovered!

Is that what we want here? I hope not!

Support the OWSDemocrat party they are the grassroots , they are an inspiration for Obama and Pelosi , peacefully protesters , no violence, no rapes, no damage to the privatete property, they are a perfect example of democracy , while the Tea Party protesters are a bunch of terrorist and violent group.....or is all the way around oops

Oscar, at least try to come up with something coherent. Even you're own can't understand you.

Most people live in the middle states.

And mainstream America who lives in middle America is just repulsed by the antics of this crazy OWS group.

Oscar, at least try to come up with something coherent. Even you're own can't understand you.

"Your" own.

ewent -

You really need to 'get a clue'. I MAy start listening to your rants when you do so.

Limbaugher: you highlight the problem of a growing police state.

OWS, as it started off to be, has done what they wanted to do: start the conversation rolling. We seem to assume that OWS needs to be like the tea party. That does not follow. With the conversation started, any number of groups can take up specific demands, while OWS keeps the problem in that little electronic window we view life through. If they want a demands segment, that's fine, but there is no reason that a hundred different groups couldn't and shouldn't take on specific aspects of the huge problem that is our broken system.

Uh, so essentially the more scattered and disorganized and rudderless the better?

And you think mygirl1 that you are never "scattered and disorganized and rudderless"; --- be honest Girl!

I'm not out there protesting any and everything. Seems if I were protesting I would have a goal and a reason for the protest. Vague, disjointed and scattered ideas are not exactly conducive to change for the better.

You mentioned a key word here--"voters". If you are eligible to vote, then get registered and do it!

I'm about as middle America as you can get and I do not support you.

Well they SHOULD have "folded" when the cops came. news flash: you are obliged by laws to folloow the lawful instructions of a lw enforcement officer. How hard is that to grasp?

But I suspect many of the OWS kiddies realised that their future employability would be even more at risk with a "resisting arrest" conviction or worse popping up on their criminal background checks. I aplaud the ones who made the right choice and folloowed the law rather than having to be dragged away like petulant children throwing a tantrum.

Money Always Runs Out

That may be the only rational thing you have posted here. Money does run out, doesn't it. It runs out even quicker when you take money from other people, killing their desire to go out and make more because there's no point to building wealth if its only going to be redistributed to people who haven't earned it.

It's easy to take a few examples like Madoff and apply to an entire group of people in order to rationalize that everyone who makes a good living is evil. But, you are sorely mistaken. There are a lot of wealthy people who do a lot of really good things for this country. There are also a lot of small business owners who are wrongfully deemed rich who will suffer. You lose those folks and you break America's back.

Then see how quickly your money runs out.

I still don't understand why the OWS protesters think they should be entitled to something they haven't earned... Talk about entitlement! Our tax dollars are already paying to clean up after these people, why should anyone else support them as well? I would love something for nothing but am smart enough to know that's not how it works...

I'm not even going to try and rationalize with you because it's not really worth it to me. I suggest you research the impact of arbitrary wealth distribution around the world, throughout history and learn something.

There are companies that do things that don't involve a tax credit. My company does. Also, a lot of businesses do a lot for employees internally and they never seek credit for it - it happens all the time where I work. I'm sorry that you live in such a cynical world but maybe if you got out and explored what actual business looks like in this country (not the MNC's, major corporations and banks) you would see how right I am. But you don't care about that, right? Down with all business, so it seems.

Andrew Nutra

OWS: The moment's gone. Battles are about territories. You all folded like beach chairs when the cops came.

Kind of hard not to when you are being beaten, pepper sprayed, shot with rubber bullets and dragged away in cuffs.

What would you have done? taken them on? LOL

my money is running out since 40% of it goes to the freeloaders at OWS.

Ewent, I was never rude to you, so I don't understand why you have to be such a jerk to everyone who disagrees with you. You must be a blast at cocktail parties. Perhaps your world sucks because you're an a$$hole and people don't like you.

I didn't lose a thing. I strongly believe in what I said and I think history backs me up on that - despite how knowledgeable you think you are about the constitution, the founding fathers, the USSR and, apparently what I know and don't know about the company I work for.

I know everything that goes on here. You can live in your negative little world, tipping your cap for a handout and railing against anyone who disagrees with your perspective. Enjoy it.

But don't tell me what I know about mine.

Okay, so in capitalism one person or group of persons provides goods or services to another person or group of persons in exchange for money or other goods/services. Uh...what's so bad about that? It's the best system I've seen so far.

A job is just you providing a service for a business (which is a person or a group of persons working to provide goods/services to other people, remember). So if the business doesn't need your service or there is somebody else who does that service better, why is it their responsibility to hire you? Go apply at different businesses, or, if you need to improve your skill set, do it. If you need college, go to one YOU CAN AFFORD and work your brains out while you do it (you may need to lower your pride a notch for this--you'll probably be delivering pizzas or something like that). Then go apply everywhere or start your own business (without a loan--I know its a foriegn idea, but start small and grow from there) if you see a need in the marketplace.

Work hard and don't buy things you can't afford and capitalism works just fine. I'm 17 and I get this--I've been building up college savings working at whatever jobs I could find, and I have a $900 car that works just fine and DOESN'T have a loan on it. I'm working hard for scholarships but not counting on them, and checking for colleges I can afford.

How do these 20+ people not get this?

@ PH-3046605

Because he is an intolerant a little liberal prick who thinks he knows everything.

PH and ewent - Sounds like you both are convinced the 'you know what you know'. Neither one of you are wrong, but you won't convince the other person that ONLY YOU are right. ewent, Using big words to make yourself sound superior does not win arguments. Often, simplicity rules the day. Give it up.

Now lets take it where we used to go. Let's find that middle ground & discuss what we have in common. Build on the common ground and make progress.

The machine that has become our need to always be right forces us to stop looking at where we can work together. We build machines, so we have the ability to rewire the machine and make it do what we want, not what the media and partisan political figures want us to do. They are the puppet masters, we are the puppets.

Cut the strings & stand on your own two feet. Take this country back! Many hands make light work!

Concernedone, you are right. I agree.

If you look at my other posts, I am actually very moderate and I do believe in working together. Everyone knows I am for small business, personal responsibility and factual accuracy. I have never once condoned money in Washington or corrupt banking practices.

We need a strong moderate base to pull this country out of the rut we are in. I believe that base is a silent majority that needs to come forward. Thank you for the reminder.

concernedone...I'm smart enough to know that there's no point in narrow minded opinions. We can all learn from even the most linear thinkers. I use words as an expression of my verbal communication. Not for superiority sake. I know what I know. And right now I know that there are people in this country who would love nothing more than to return it to pre-Civil War days. Sorry, that's not acceptable in such a highly educated society.

I am all for a middle ground that is all inclusive. Team spirit and team effort are what made this country great. Is that what we have in Congress right now?

Some of the most developed economic minds are of the opinion that the US is veering too far from what made it great in the first place....our ability to work together.

I have no doubt that with more people of your mindset we could accomplish far more than we are today. I'm definitely a team player and know the value of team effort. This is why I can't understand why when someone is elected to the presidency, instead of team effort, we have massive repulsive obstinacy and total lack of cooperation. It matters not if we agree 100% with others. It matters most if we cannot direct ourselves to a single focus of returning this country to the greatness from whence it began.

Andrew, the teabaggers have been saying that for months now. How long is OWS going to continue to be just about to collapse, because you were wrong when you said it would last just a few days, and then you were wrong when you said it would last just a few weeks.

We should get the Tea Party and the OWS together. If there could be common ground found, they could achieve ANYTHING!

The passion of OWS, the professionalism of TP, both wanting to take this country back. How does the Tea Party get back to the pre-Limbaugh days & fond the commonality with OWS?

THAT is common ground millions would buy into. THAT would carry the independent voter!

@ ewent

"As usual with anyone who ASSumes, they are always wrong."

You have been doing this this entire thread....assuming. You try in vain to lump all of the "rich" people in to the same pot but ignorantly stating that that haven't busted their asses LEGITIMATELY to get were there are. All you actually know are unsubstantiated OPINIONs based on your ASSumptions. If you actually knew that MOST people became wealthy because of hard work and ambition you wouldn't be so pissed off at those you see who scam the system to get rich. Quit f*cking whinning so much!

I absolutely love the BS sob story of yours....

"Ever work 3 jobs with no real debt and still can't get ahead when you consistently deprive yourself of those things your paycheck allows 1% to enjoy?"

Did it ever cross your mind that you just don't actually have the talent or the intelligence to "get ahead". It's blatantly obvious that there are people out there with more talent, skill and ambition than you hence the reason you complain about "working hard" and can't seem to advance. It's a BS sob story that is typical of those who are jealous of what others LEGITIMATELY have. You chastise those VERY FEW crooked millionaires who as your rightly say got rich by doing very little or by "scamming" the system, but the number is so small it's an insult to the majority when you lump all the "rich" into the same pot.

"I wouldn't expect the cushioned affluent to have any sense of working to exist and existing to work. They don't have. We are the ones who pay the taxes they don't."

How would you know what the "affluent" have actually done in the way of hard work to get to where they are? You don't know any personally and you sure as hell aren't one of them...for obvious reasons.

These protesters can't decide what direction to go in because the BIG Money sucking the life out of the middle class is so entrenched in our government the policies to reverse it would take decades to enact, let alone the time it would take to pass any bills to change it. The only solution will be for the public in general INSIST on and FORCE change in all levels of the government. That is where the problem lies, complacency and disinterest. Of course the right-wingers feeding us a bunch of conservative propaganda fed to them by lobbyists and corporate "consultants"...

Well, there goes that spirit of compromise...! (Tracy)

Oh well....as you can see I really don't like whinners like ewent. I have a couple of co-workers like ewent that all they do is complain and bitch and moan about what a very FEW people do and love to preach to the rest of us how unfair it is.

It's absolutely annoying.

Just a kid:

Okay, so in capitalism one person or group of persons provides goods or services to another person or group of persons in exchange for money or other goods/services. Uh...what's so bad about that? It's the best system I've seen so far.

There isn't anything wrong with that principal, and most people are not saying there is.

A job is just you providing a service for a business (which is a person or a group of persons working to provide goods/services to other people, remember). So if the business doesn't need your service or there is somebody else who does that service better, why is it their responsibility to hire you?

Again, most are not saying they should have to. However, it is not this simple. Those of you who believe in pure capitalism do not believe in full employment (the principal that everyone should have a job), and what this means is that the businesses have the 'upper hand', i.e. there is always somebody else to offer the job to, or there is more demand for jobs than there is for workers. So, as people have to compete for the jobs they often work for less than they otherwise would (or what they are 'worth'). What you have seen over the last 40 years is wages remaining fairly level, or not rising to meet inflation. Meanwhile the businesses reap the benefits as their wage costs cut less and less into their profit. That's what creates the income gap.

That is why this is too simplified:

Work hard and don't buy things you can't afford and capitalism works just fine.

Not when wages don't rise to meet the costs of things. The big example being housing. I did some research yesterday and found out that the median household income in 1970 was under $10,000. The median price of a home was about $23,000. Last year those numbers were under just $50,000 and about $220,000. That makes it twice as expensive to buy a house now than it was in 1970. That means that home ownership is becoming more and more out of reach for the average person. That means more and more people needing more and more benefits (paid for by taxes) because otherwise they're out on the street when they can no longer work. It also means more people working till later in life, which means less jobs for those entering the workforce.

While I see where you are coming from, concerned, the Tea Party and the Occupiers could never work together. Sure, they share the same grievances (as does most of this country) but their philosophies are fundamentally opposed.

I do agree though that OWS could learn something from the professionalism of the Tea Party. They were pretty successful in bringing forth change (before they were highjacked by special interests). I also agree that the Tea Party could learn from OWS' passion. Perhaps if they had stuck to their guns, they would have remained the party that they wanted to be in the beginning.

Tracy, I agree. It is very hard to lock it up when someone is spewing factual inaccuracies and calling everyone who disagrees uneducated or worse. But, such is life :-)

Tracy...get a book published, then tell me how successful I'm not...your post is the best example yet of hypocrisy...I interviewed 53 orphans of all ages about 5 years ago. I also worked for an employer who is now a Senator, a woman SBA ombudsperson and served in my community as president of 2 major civic groups.

I detest greed. I detest those who manipulate others to give themselves airs they are not entitled to. I voted for President Clinton and Obama when I was a Republican. Thanks to Bush and Cheney I can't stomach today's Republican hypocrites and wealth protection cartel.

The way you destroy a country is to allow 1% of the population total control using money they extract from everyone else. Nothing to do with success is there?

Your post only serves as proof of the extreme judgementalism that righties all feed on. It's obvious you prefer a society of corrupt 1% who can lavish themselves with everyone else's money..oh gee...I guess I just described the entitlement thingie righties love to shove in everyone else's faces but their own. Just like they lust over spending everyone else's money but their own. How many more Madoffs do you want to exonerate?

Sorry darlin...My most successful days are past me. Own at business at age 17, have a career for 37 years, raise 2 kids on only one paycheck...then maybe your post can be considered remotely valid proof of my success. I earned the right to the voice I now have. When you do, let me know.

As for assumptions, your entire post is an assumption of me. If you want to know who I really am, check out any bookstore. Gotcha!

Tracy...Some people DO know more than others care to. It's called a narrow mind. In the case of your post, it's more a problem of intelligent verbal communication. Thanks for proving that.

Ewent, aren't you the person who argued in the posts above that we live in a democracy and not a republic, and that the word democracy is in the constitution? I hardly think you're in the position to lecture anyone on intelligent verbal communication.

'Just a Kid' seems to have more common sense than all of the 'but I owe too much for my college education to work for minimum wage' protesters I've heard...

...and for you 'JaK', you are spot in IMO and good job explaining what most people know, or should know, by the end of high school....When you skate close to the edge of financial default, you can't afford to slip or trip....

Rob, you took the words out of my mouth.

Pure, unregulated capitalism works only in a utopian society where everyone is ethical and honest (same for communism actually). In the real world we have a bunch of crooks that are looking to line their pockets with wealth regardless of the consequences to others or society as a whole. Currently, they make the rules; so all the thievery, and unfairness, is legal.

Just a Kid: If things keep going the way they are, I am sorry to tell you that will learn this lesson the hard way.

Ewent-You say you can't stand today's Republicans because they protect the 1%. How do you feel about Obama giving billions of our tax dollars to green companies that have gone bankrupt, oh and these companies were his major contributors. Also you say you are a published author to look for you in a book store, how about giving us the names of a couple of books you have written. Gotcha!

I have noticed that you do a lot of whining maybe if you did not spend so much time posting on here maybe you could afford some of the pleasures of the majority not the 1% as you would have us believe. How I see it maybe you can't get anywhere because all you do all day is post on this website. Gotcha!!

Ewent, you are getting mighty old with your bragging about how much you made and how successful you are, and then getting on here and ranting and raving about conservatives. You are just a blowhard that has nothing to do all day but tear down anything that is conservative. I am retired also, have worked my butt off all my life and saved enough to retire on, but i doggoned if im gonna support an administration that wants to strip me of my money to give to the democrats voting base in the ghettos. The democrats have created an entitlement base, that we are fast learning that we cannot afford anymore, so they are scrambling around demonizing people like me, to get people riled up against seniors to take there hard earned money. You should hear the comments i hear made when listening to conversations in publilc places..... Great job obama, your achieving just what you wanted, division of the country, race baiting, class warfare..... where is the hope and change you promised?

@ewent

You lost any measure of being taken seriously when you claimed that the constitution reads that the United States is a democracy, when it does not, and not immediately, after researching the matter yourself, retracting your statement. In my limited vocabulary (you are obviously far more intellectual than any body here) I say you are a pompous, arrogant, know-it-all, who knows little. Although... the 99%ers that I know and myself included do not agree with how the OWS protesters are conducting themselves and they do not represent me. Secondly, we want to party with you.... you are a riot and we need some well deserved laughs. Oh... and by the way, by your own statements it would seem you are the 1% compared to my friends and I, so, you will have to fund the party we throw in your honor. We will send a list of demands post haste.

mike #3.11- You said "Kind of hard not to when you are being beaten, pepper sprayed, shot with rubber bullets and dragged away in cuffs. What would you have done? taken them on? LOL"

Funny this would not happen if in fact the protesters were peaceful and not rapist and murders. As well as destroying mom and pop businesses they are suppose to be fighting for. So what would you do.

OWS is just a bunch of lazy good for nothing types that want me to fund them laying around all day. How do all these people that think it is ok not to work. If you read OWS first demands they are so contradicting the only conclusion that can be mad is that they want to be paid for doing nothing. Wake up you are an adult get out there and improve your condition with some good old fashion hard work. I know to you Lib's hard work is a very bad word. Get out there and contribute instead of just taking, now theres a thought.

How about we make it so if we give you money, welfare other entitlement programs, you go work all day for that money just like the rest of us do everyday. What kind of work, you ask could they do for there check, easy they can go pick produce that would also help with the illegal immigration in this country because Americans would be filling those jobs not illegal immigrants. I just bet in no time people would do whatever they had to not to be on an entitlement program. This would help the USA a great deal. I am not talking about making our disabled work or the old. Just those that suck our system dry.

killerteam,

The democrats have created an entitlement base,

The great society may have been created while democrats were in power. But both Nixon and Ford (both republicans) expanded it. So did Bush with that stupid Medicare Part D BS. Both parties have created this monster. Neither has the guts to solve it.

You could not be more wrong Bill!

-------- What is the SIGNIFICANCE of these Word-wide OWS demonstrations?------
Prophetic words by Tom Friedman, the famous journalist with “The New York Times” are.
“Now let me say that in English: the European Union is cracking up. The Arab world is cracking up. China’s growth model is under pressure and America’s credit-driven capitalist model has suffered a warning [major] heart attack and needs a total rethink. Recasting any one of these alone would be huge. Doing all four at once — when the world has never been more interconnected - is mind-boggling. We are again present at the creation - but of what?

[ Never in the history of modern man has such a global event ever happened ]

As for America, we’ve thrived in recent decades with a “credit-consumption-led economy”, whereby we maintained a middle class by using more steroids (easy credit, subprime mortgages and construction work) and less muscle-building (education, skill-building and innovation). It’s put us in a deep hole, and the only way to dig out now is a new, hybrid politics that mixes spending cuts, tax increases, tax reform and investments in infrastructure, education, research [innovation] and production. But that mix is not the agenda of either party. Either our two parties find a way to collaborate in the center around this new hybrid politics, or a third party is going to emerge — or we’re stuck and the pain will just get worse”.

Tom Friedman is smarter than anyone here, including me and the author of this article about "OWS not knowing what to demand." --- And HE does not have the "answer" and ask "but of what?"

Except for Concernedone, this has been a great look at people with their heads stuck in, well where ever they stick them, but they are not listening, they are talking. Their view points, and they feelings are out for all to disagree with, at least in their eye.

PH, I know many Tea Partiers that agree if not support and are now on the lines with OWS.

Ewent: stop talking already, you don't know everything. You are right in some, but wrong in many more.

As are many here.

OWS may have the wrong approach, but I think their heart and minds are in the right place, just like Tea Partiers, many Liberals and many Conservatives, at least those closer to the middle that can still talk to one another. Sorry moderates, your stuck in the middle again, but sometimes that's the best place.

Toasty, OWS will be on the verge of collapse forever, just like Bush was going to easily hold on to the congress in 2006. Until it was over, that is.

I've never understood why people believe a narrative that is easily disprove by events on the ground. Just like the civil rights marches, the police came, brutalized, dispersed, and now OWS is back. There is no reason to believe anything different.

This one is going to be an even longer climb then civil rights was, though. With civil rights, it was a minority against a largely unpopular minority that held power through fear, but had few other real resources. In this case, it's a marginally popular majority (an oxymoron, I know, but true nonetheless) against a tiny minority that doesn't need to be popular, because they have all the resources of the country.

The result is inevitable. The minority will lose of leave. The time scale is the variable. The longer it takes, the worse it will be for those left behind. The Soviet Union is always a good example. The elite had everything, keeping the wealth through terror, and gaining it through corruption, and a true systematic rape of the country. When they ran out of support, there was so little left to run the country on that the mob was left in the best position to take over. They are arguably still in control.

We can either fix the problem now, while there is still a middle class (44% of the MC is still left now) and rebuild with what we have, or wait until we look like the former Soviet Union, and deal with anarchy when everything implodes.

The ostriches have to take their heads out of the sand, stop watching fox and listening to the lies on radio talk shows, and actually look around them. Pull out a calculator, and compare their lives with the lives of their fathers. Look at the people at the same level, economically, as they are, and see how many of them have been cast to the ground in ruin by a single decision by upper management to increase their bonus.

I see a lot of Americans with white knuckles on the gunwales, thinking if they don't rock the boat, it won't throw them out, even as the passengers right next to them are in the water drowning, and the seas continue to swell.

It's time to find land, America, and stop living from moment to moment, hoping you can weather a storm that just keeps getting worse.

You can take that advice, or not. It's only my observation. I don't really have a horse in this race. I just hate to see people ruin themselves.

@ewent

"Tracy...get a book published, then tell me how successful I'm not...your post is the best example yet of hypocrisy...I interviewed 53 orphans of all ages about 5 years ago. I also worked for an employer who is now a Senator, a woman SBA ombudsperson and served in my community as president of 2 major civic groups."

Is that list of accomplishments suppose to impress everyone here? As a practicing architect of 15 years I have overseen more dollars spent in construction and actually PRODUCING structures that actually benefit society than you ever have or ever will. A bunch of community service is not what I would call impressive considering our current POTUS has exactly that and very little in the way of private sector experience. As for your business you supposedly owned...exactly what service or product did you provide?

"I detest greed. I detest those who manipulate others to give themselves airs they are not entitled to"

So do I....but for you to say that the 1% of wage earners are all greedy SOBs that haven't really worked for what they have just prove your shear ignorance on multiple levels. MOST of these people have worked just as hard if not harder than you ever have, so don't sit there an pariot and preach to us like you know what hard work is all about.

"Thanks to Bush and Cheney I can't stomach today's Republican hypocrites and wealth protection cartel"

So considering Democrat jerks like Barney Frank and Chis Dodd write laws to financially benefit their buddies at Fannie and Freddie I am assuming that you just forgot to include all of the "rich" Democrats in Congress? BTW educate yourself on who are the "rich" people are in Congress.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/uscongress/ss/Wealthiest-Members-of-Congress_2.htm

"I earned the right to the voice I now have. When you do, let me know"

Been there done that girl and BTW your word have no more or less weight than anyone else here no matter what you CLAIM to have accomplished in your life. The are millions out that who have done far more in their life and struggled more than you so please layoff the "I done more than you" crap. You need to get off your self rightous high horse because it's not impressing anyone here.

You are an author? Please do enlighten us be revealing your book(s) your have supposedly written.

Just a little information about Eleanore Rigby aka ewent.

http://wwwnovemberschildcom.blogspot.com/2010/08/finally-book-published.html

Who supports capitalism? Right, that UNAmerican group US Chamber of Commerce.

"Media Chief you menace me, the people you say cause all the crime. Wake up, motherf@ckers and smell the slime." RHCP - The Power of Equality

one can only hope that after witnessing what these people act like and do, that the country would wake up and shoot these idiots. They dont want jobs, they want free stuff, and want to take from the people that work and distribute it to the people that will never work.... in other words, the same as the communist we have running our country now, obama. Obama is the problem, and once we get his butt out of the white house, i think the country will settle down some. He is nothing but trouble and keeps stirring it up whenever he can. He has screwed this country at every opportunity and every trip overseas, he has bashed America and made us look like fools. The only real fool is obama. He is working overtime to finish the job he started, and thats to destroy this country. If that were not true, would he not have changed direction by now?

Arna Smith...Bush didn't create class warfare with his policies that protected the richest 1%? How about a little ownership of accountability for a change? How is continuing to hand over our hard earned tax dollars to Big Oil not class warfare? How is allowing 1% of the population to continue to get tax credits they do not deserve nor need not class warfare?

Don't talk about class warfare until you are willing to admit that the biggest Wealth Protectionist Cartel are the right wing Tea Party Koch and Norquist Republicans.

Slime isn't what democracy is about. Slime isn't what founded this country. So why is slime all we see and hear these days from Wall Street and the 1%?

Don't talk class warfare until you are willing to admit that the 1% got that way off the backs of the rest of us. Long live their Plantation Mentalities.

Whine away they can't afford to pay American salaries....gee same thing plantation owners claimed after they lost the Civil War. At least the plantation owners had the decency not to beg bailouts from those they bankrupted like the pigs of the 1% do today.

Who supports capitalism? Try Romney of Bain Consulting. He supported it so well he became a multi-billionaire and all he had to do was sell off tens of thousands of midwest businesses that created mass unemployment. Capitalism Romney Style.

Then, there's the Slick Rick Capitalism. His state gets more in federal subsidies and tax credits and is second only to Alaska in beggar states from the fed. But, you know how it is...Big Oil can't continue their business without taxpayers paying their bills..and Republican Kiss Asses wouldn't dare deny Big Oil trillions in tax subsidies now would they? Oh and let's not forget that all of those oil spills made by wreckless CEO decisions will be paid for by taxpayers too. Gotta kiss Big Oil Ass don't we?

Then, there's the rest of the Republican rah rah bois and gals of capitalism...they'll help themselves to all of our payroll deductions but damn...they'll never cut a dime from Big Business will they?

Yep....Capitalism Republican style...the fastest way to end a democracy.

killerteam

one can only hope that after witnessing what these people act like and do, that the country would wake up and shoot these idiots.

So people exercising their constitutional rights need shot? Clown.

ewent - you have some issues baby, you are blinded by pure rage. Take another hit off the crack pipe, watch Family Guy and chill out man. You are sounding more and more like a Communist Manifesto. Please don't talk about democracy when you don't believe in it. You listed all the evil Rich people that people assume are Republicans in 1.10. What about Soros who made billions by devaluing the British Pound? Why didn't you throw him in their? Or Immelt of GM Obama's Jobs Czar who steered GE from not paying taxes on 3.5 Billion in Profit and also moved the GE X-ray Div to China? Immelt is also doing a joint venture with China on jet engines. All jobs in China. Oh that's right, all good Liberals so that doesn't count. You have zero credibility.

They are asking for jobs, apparently you don't know what you are talking about and are 99% clueless about what the OWS protests are all about. Maybe you should watch some videos you tube to get a better idea before you show your ignorance. And yes I agree as someone else stated here, it's just now starting. America is forgetting that places like California and New York are always ahead by several years. That anything that happens there happens every where else down the line. Those places have the most people and are where most of the large corporations exist. It's I guess you can say the front line of these issues getting brought to light.

Soupy55: Well said

It's funny how the teabaggers always resort to the "class warfare" card whenever they get caught @!$%#ing over the middle class...

The public ( at least the people who care about this country) support these people 100%.

soupy...Assuming makes an ass of one. How dare you or anyone assume they know me? Should I assume your post loaded with knowledge of dope means you are a user?

What' with the bullies in this country lately? Too much free time on their hands? Ooooooh...I know I'm skeeeeeered...here comes the big bad bully bois....let's all run and hide.

Now to shoot down the errors in your post...2009...President Obama asked for an extension of unemployment benefits. The Republicans wouldn't consider it if it didn't include a 3rd tax credit in less than decade. Holding the unemployed hostage? Now...go to the GAO and check the report in 2005 on who benefitted most from Bush's 1st 2001 tax credit...1% were 11% richer. Bush? Republican president saving rich ass?

Fast forward to 2010...President Obama tried to get legislation passed that would release FEMA funds to states who lost billions in damages from flooding and fires...Republicans fought it unless funding for solar energy companies was removed. Kissing ass of Big Oil is what Republicans do best. Who but Big Oil would benefit most if thousands of solar energy companies went bankrupt?

Most righties are bare faced hypocrites. They talk smaller government and then get Republicans to hire tens of thousands of private government contractors with tens of thousands of employees the rest of us will pay for through our taxes.

Next time soupy try facts you can prove. Anything less is tripe.

Ewent is the Archetype for the word: HYPOCRITE. She is so blinded by her personal rage, jealousy, and envy she can't keep her "story narratives" straight. Her picture is in the dictionary by the word hypocrite.

Why she hasn't been permanently BANNED for Her constant violations of the Code of Honor is beyond me. My only conclusion can be is that because she is a LIBERAL as most of Newsvine's "moderators" are, They give her a "PASS". This will likely get me "banned" again for saying such.

She is so ignorant of the "real world" it is pitiful. Things like not knowing that Most "Big Oil Company's" heavily invest in "next generation energy" technology, because it is good business, and the reason it isn't in the market is because they own the patents and at current fossil fuel prices aren't economically viable to bring to market. Hence you get companies like SOLENDRA, that we tax payers have to pay for.

Ewent, you did not address Soupy55's comments. You employ a typical tactic of the letf, deflection. While your statement regarding Bush tax cuts may be true, it does not address Soupy's comments. So please tell us oh wise one, why did you only mention Republican leaning CEO's?

You lose a lot of credibility because your posts are full of vitriol, pithy sayings and talking point.

All OWS wants is to fix the problems, and there are a slew. Regardless of what you think about the protesters themselves, they have a message that we all should agree on: Just Fix it! Our economy is a wreck. The wealthy have bought our government. And the media repeatedly manufactures crisis and distorts information we all need to make a measured opinion. After reading the majority of these posts I find that most are just misinformed and preach their way is the only way. I wonder how many are paid bloggers wanting to be the first to trash anything positive coming from this movement. Does anyone want to fix this mess or are you just going to argue till end of days?

Finally, Just the fact that our government is bought lock stock and barrel by the rich and corporations to include wall street, is reason enough to tax them out of existence.

Oh, don't worry Toasty. The Tea Party is about to get their SS/Medicare slashed in the super-committee. That will be a hoot, won't it?

"Smaller government! No more Taxes! Cut Spending! Where's my Social Security check?"

Seriously, it's always the Medicare and Social Security parasites who accuse ME of wanting handouts. I get nothing from them, while they take money out of my pocket, and somehow I'M the socialist.

Wow, careful Toasty, you're starting to sound like a conservative....

hahahhaah Andrew, reading your post reminded me of Lucy from the Charlie Brown cartoons. Who used to charge .05 for her advice.

The problem with the OWS is their lack of leadership. Even the Hollywood crowd isn't foolish enough to speak up for them.

Back in the 60's and 70's the messages from the protesters were clear. End the war, civil rights for all, equality for all, etc. Now it's just rambling. The OWS were a media attraction that ran their course. Go home. Get a job. Take a shower. You're not even interesting anymore.

The funniest thing I've read about this whole situation was when Joan Baez went to perform for the vagrants in NYC, and at one point she asked them to sing along with one of her songs and was met with almost complete silence. These idiots didn't even know who she was.

Janine, of course it's nothing but rambling. Let's face it, a typical OWS member's idea of "deep thought" can just about fill a Twitter update. Asking them to form a cohesive thought is like trying to empty the ocean with a spoon.

JoeB...Madoff was always in deep thought. And you see where that got him. Next on the right wing hit list?

Thanks for proving my point, ewie boy.

Andrew NutraI want to set up an "Attention Booth." I'll charge each OWS member $5 per 15 minute session. Tell me about your problems. Awww your liberal arts degree not doing anything for you in this down economy?

Whats your college degree in?

*crickets*

JoeB...ewie boy? ESP not working that well today? Sixth sense off the mark a little? Not surprised....I'm a Ewie girl....or more appropriately Ewie lady...and proud of it.

An art degree isn't the only ones not paying or really hiring: Business degrees, Science degrees in Biology, Law degrees, and many others.

Health care is hiring. And IT is overstaffed most of the time, you best have at least a masters in it to make much money. If its simple networking now and no code writing, they'll higher some 18 year old gamer to do the job for 12 an hour. And most of the places are not requiring code writing, because they outsource this to other specialist firms which often times are outside the country.

Hope it all just turns around.

Right on, Andrew! Now the slackers with their 4 year BS college degrees are whining while they should have chosen something realistic to do in life. It's always the same bunch of nerds that always wanted to it their way - nonconformists and misfits! Here, read this, it is fully applicable to you fools:

Some Belated Parental Advice to Protesters
Posted By
Marybeth Hicks On October 19, 2011

Call it an occupational
hazard but I can’t look at the Occupy Wall
Street protesters without thinking, “Who parented these
people?”

As a culture columnist, I’ve commented on the social and
political ramifications of the “movement” – now known as “OWS” – whose fairyland agenda can be summarized by one
of their placards: “Everything for everybody.”

Thanks to their
pipe-dream platform, it’s clear there are people with serious designs on
“transformational” change in America who are using the protesters like
bedsprings in a brothel.

Yet it’s not my role as a commentator
that prompts my parenting question but rather the fact that I’m the mother of
four teens and young adults. There are some crucial life lessons that the
protesters’ moms clearly have not passed along.

Here, then, are
five things the OWS protesters’ mothers should have taught their children but
obviously didn’t, so I will:

• Life isn’t fair. The concept of
justice – that everyone should be treated fairly – is a worthy and worthwhile
moral imperative on which our nation was founded. But justice and economic
equality are not the same. Or, as Mick Jagger [2] said, “You can’t always get
what you want.”

No matter how you try to “level the playing
field,” some people have better luck, skills, talents or connections that land
them in better places. Some seem to have all the advantages in life but squander
them, others play the modest hand they’re dealt and make up the difference in
hard work and perseverance and some find jobs on Wall Street and eventually buy
houses in the Hamptons . Is it fair? Stupid question.

• Nothing is
“free.” Protesting with signs that seek “free” college degrees and “free” health
care make you look like idiots because colleges and hospitals don’t operate on
rainbows and sunshine. There is no magic money machine to tap for your
meandering educational careers and “slow paths” to adulthood and the 53 percent
of taxpaying Americans owe you neither a degree nor an annual
physical.

While I’m pointing out this obvious fact, here are a few
other things that are not free: overtime for police officers and municipal
workers, trash hauling, repairs to fixtures and property, condoms, Band-Aids and
the food that inexplicably appears on the tables in your makeshift protest
kitchens. Real people with real dollars are underwriting your civic temper
tantrum.

• Your word is your bond. When you demonstrate to
eliminate student loan debt, you are advocating precisely the lack of integrity
you decry in others. Loans are made based on solemn promises to repay them. No
one forces you to borrow money; you are free to choose educational pursuits that
don’t require loans or to seek technical or vocational training that allows you
to support yourself and your ongoing educational goals. Also, for the record,
being a college student is not a state of victimization. It’s a privilege that
billions of young people around the globe would die for –
literally.

• A protest is not a party. On Saturday in New
York , while making a mad dash from my cab to the door of my hotel to
avoid you, I saw what isn’t evident in the newsreel footage of your
demonstrations: Most of you are doing this only for attention and fun. Serious
people in a sober pursuit of social and political change don’t dance jigs down
Sixth Avenue like attendees of a Renaissance festival. You look foolish, you
smell gross, you are clearly high and you don’t seem to realize that all around
you are people who deem you irrelevant.

• There are reasons you
haven’t found jobs. The truth? Your tattooed necks, gauged ears, facial
piercings and dirty dreadlocks are off-putting. Nonconformity for the sake of
nonconformity isn’t a virtue. Occupy reality: Only 4 percent of college
graduates are out of work. If you are among that 4 percent, find a mirror and
face the problem. It’s not them. It’s you.

(© 2011 Marybeth
Hicks)

Jeremy,

Sorry guy, but wrong. There are currently over 20,000 open IT and other technical jobs on GA right now that companies can't find qualified applicants to fill, but the Unemployment rate is over 10%. So I call Bu11sh!t.

My company has opening all over country for Science, Engineering, and other Tech degrees. Have to be able to pass background check, drug test, and get security clearance, so guy that disqualifies 99% of the OWS-ers and you.

IT is still strong. I've been getting cold offers throughout the recession. Recruiters calling at least once a week. Things havent been this easy in IT since the .com bubble.

Well I guess everyone can become programmers, Right? You could form a group called IT for everything and F the farmers, trash collectors and your local Law enforcement and school systems to boot. But along with your mandate make sure you Spay and Neuter yourselves. There will be no one too care for your offspring. If I have to spend the rest of my life in a Zuckerberg world I'll go nuts! I'd rather eat a bullet. Your life on a Facebook page, A world filled with pale skinny nerds make my skin crawl. Just mindless rambling of code with no point since everyone will provide what ever code they need for themselves. Ah ya, back to the trash guy, or the absence of one. They'll be a mountain of trash up to our necks, No one too tie your shoes nor pick out your shirts. The Comedy Big Bang Theory comes to thought at your ambivalent ramblings, Your way too busy patting yourself on the back while losing your 401K money, just like everyone else, Don't say I didn't warn ya. but when the next brighter better programmers or widget come along and make you obsolete, you'll be down here standing on the street. It will happen, I can assure you and just like us old folks that are angry as hell, you'll be shaking your own head and asking, WOW what ever happened to the good old days, just like us. Capitalism was never intended to be our framework of economic strength. It's not in our Constitution, But you will find the words, "We" "People" and "Common good". Ponder that for a while and then get back to me...Peace

I believe that one key message from OWS is they want an end to Pay to Play politics. When you have the super rich and corporations (or, yeah, the unions) donating huge amounts of campaign cash to those looking out for their interests, how are they going to vote on laws affecting those groups? It's a corrupt system. We need campaign finance reform so that congress votes are in the interest of all.

IT is definitely going strong in hiring. My company is always looking for entry-level AND experienced hires.

Jeffery, nice rant...but so wrong. I have been in the IT business for 35+ years, and have worked hard to constantly re-invent my skills and stay relevant. Anyone who wants to work hard and learn the new technologies can do this...

Kiwijapan, are you really from Japan? The largest welfare state in the Asian theater? Surely, you aren't commenting on America's problems with inequality. I know that jobs are plentiful in Japan, even if the work is hard, so you really couldn't have that much useful input on this situation.

Andrew, I have plenty of friends who received degrees in engineering, science, and law who are either unemployed, underemployed, or had to seek work outside of their focus. As an engineer in the US I see huge problems with energy, infrastructure, and the environment. Yet this country is broke, it cannot even afford to fully fund FEMA to repair the destruction left behind in this past year's disasters (TX/AZ/NM fires, Eastern Seaboard Hurricane, Flooding of the Missouri/ Mississippi, Flooding in New England). The US infrastructure grade for bridges, roads, sewers, water utilities, tunnels, dams, airports, etc received an overall D-. My point is there is work to be done, but not enough work being completed. Underutilized work force. The liberal-arts degrees arent the only people out of work.

Totally agree: the reason they (OWS) are unable to agree on
a unified list of demands is because they’re demands are all of self individual
interest and the very reason they’re all in the 99% of “Americans outside the
economic elite”.

Andrew Nutra...heads up ahole isn't exactly a way to describe what Madoff pulled off as "no one is for any of those things" is it?

But thank you for proving what I suspected. Those with the most cushy cushty aren't about to own up to their own misguided ignorance of what greed is doing to this country.

Their asses have been cushioned from all austerity and hardship for so long, they are growing callouses where muscle should be. Truth hurts, doesn't it?

LMarcT – Basically what you're saying is that OWS wants the government to legislate morality. So it’s okay for the government to ban gay marriage and take away the reproductive rights of women as well? Those are moral issues, too. You can’t pick and choose.

Andrew Nutra

This isn't about the greed, capitalism, corruption and exploitation. No one is for any of those.

Says the dolt who's political philosophies include further de-regulation of banking and corporate systems. How'd the entire 2000's decade work out for you? LOL I seriously hope you do not attempt to have discussion with people with half a brain - you'd get pointed and laughed at.

You all forget that these people also vote. Come 2012 we will see who is doing the whinning.

Sorry, Andrew, that's just a lie. It is exactly about:

greed, capitalism, corruption and exploitation.

And apparently, you are for it.

Yes, we vote. I'll be out there too, if I get that far.

And other grass roots organization are?

So they dont wear period costumes and carry nazi signs. They dont spread hate, fear and lies, so they are irrelevent? All you can say is they dont shower enough. Out of touch much?

Mike - yes. They are. The Tea Party, for example, can make demands because if their representatives do not listen then they will put up a new candidate to run against them in the next election. They hold their candidates accountable to do what they have sent them to Washington to do.

Ben Ben - talk about spreading hate, fear and lies. Sheesh.

The threat is implicit, and written in virtually every history book dealing with empire. This one could start small, like moving money from big banks, and boycotting certain retailers, but if that doesn't work, it will balloon. History never changes, and there are no exceptions to the rules. Read it, understand it, and then ask the question again.

JM38...Let's see now...When demands were made to end the Viet Nam war....Nixon call them the same names righties are calling the OWS today. But we pulled out of Viet Nam, didn't we?

Demands were made for civil rights....and we now have a Civil Rights Act, don't we? Demands were made for equal pay for equal work, ending gender and age bias and now we have legislation that prohibits employers from pulling their usual skankology on their employees.

Prior to that, demands were made for safe work environments only after thousands of Americans ended up dead from chemicals, dangerous working conditions and employers who didn't give a fat rat's ass about anything but money...Ever hear of OSHA?

Demands were made for civil rights....and we now have a Civil Rights Act, don't we?

Yes. Despite a 57 day filibuster by racist Senate Democrats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964

Ewent - the lesson to be learned from each of your examples is that if a cause can be identified (end the war, civil rights, safe work environment), then it is possible to change the course of history. Without a clearly defined goal, there can be no real progress, since there is no way to know whether progress is being made or not.

Exactly, get a job in field of studies that has (ahem) employment prospects.

Undergraduate degrees in (to name a few) in gender studies, Ufology (yep though at least this is a graduate degree), Puppetry (UConn, really), Buddhist Studies and my favorite - Lesbian studies.

What one does with any of these is beyond me.

jazzman...I agree that today's degrees are not preparing graduates for the jobs that are out there. But the reality is that there are so few jobs out there. And, factor in that a lot of foreign owners now own US corporations and can more easily bring in workers from their native countries on green cards and the job prospects diminish even further.

People who are desperate to work need to make work. Prediction...people who can't find work will go into entrepreneural mode and thousands of new companies will be the result. Too Big To Fail won't work anymore. We know it isn't where it's at.

ewent,

There are plenty of jobs out there for people with the proper "skill sets" that didn't get some Useless degree like the ones listed by Jazzman. You of all people are the poster child for that. I know for a fact that there are over 20,000 open jobs in GA right now for people with IT, medical, and other Technical training that companies can't find QUALIFIED applicants to hire. Unemployment rate in GA is over 10%.

If people who are desparate for work should do like you say and "make work", then why are they wasting their time goofing off and rioting at "Occupy" protests?? Could it be because they really don't want to work?? Maybe that is why they choose the "Major" they did. Because it was EASY, and wouldn't interfere too much with their "Partying" or "Gaming" or whatever they called a life as they leeched off their parents.

The various degrees are split between Liberal Arts and Useful Arts. That should be your first clue.

Sorry, if you start out with a major in 'insert ridiculous major' you wend up with what you majored in, NOTHING. I have NOT had anything handed to me in life...I graduated in the early 90s into a recession with few jobs. I was about 18k in college loan debt (adjusted for inflation that would equate to what today's OWS is whining about). I had NO job, but I packed up, moved to the west coast with whatever I could fit into my clunker car that broke down about half way there. I still made it there, I found ANY job I could making at the time a whopping $5.50/hour yet managed to have an apartment (clearly with a roommate), I owned NO furniture (Except for the bed I slept in), I had a few pots and plates/utensils, not even a TV. I ate pasta EVERY night with the exception of Pizza one night a week where I got the 'everything' pizza which was great for a bout 3 or 4 days of 'lunch' too. I can of Tuna was a LUXURY. Yet, I went from making $5.50/hour to being a 'assistant store manager' where the $17,500 a year was probably less than $5.50/hour since I worked far more than 40/hours a week. YET, I still paid my bills, INCLUDING my college loan, my food bill, my rent, etc etc. I did not have a computer, cell phone (and yes all of that existed back then). You see, when you HAVE to in life, you cut back and figure things out. I blamed NO ONE for what I was dealt...and I ended up moving back to the East Coast where by coincidence one of my college friends had a job in the Corporate Office of the company I was just an assistance manager for. I got an interview and accepted a job making, not sit down for this.... $25,000/year. Now I had 2 roommates, the same car, still paid my college loans, had more friends to go out with and have a few drinks...but if I had a few drinks, it probably meant I skipped eating but back then, who cared. We were all in the same boat and no one complained.

Let us hit fast forward, I moved around that company, got into IT, got into programming, learned computer languages (No I was not an IT major), I ended up at another company nearby and was making a BIG $34k/year.....WOOHOOO. Now I had 3 roommates in a house we split and we still ALL had fun and we managed to do things like snowboard. Of course none of us had the money so we got PART-TIME jobs at the local ski market store so we could get discounted stuff and discount lift tickets. 2 jobs at once...wow, what a concept. Then I wanted a computer, but I had little money...So I got a job part-time at the local CompUSA hating every minute of it, but I worked there until I qualified for the discount and got my first computer that ALL of my roommates wanted to use, and they did. Who cared, we did not all need one! I then paid to take a part-time class to learn other programming languages and eventually moved BACK to NY where I worked 'near' wall street...actually right next to Zucatti Park (back then it was called Liberty Plaza) and was living high making $65k/year. By now though clearly I'm the enemy, I mean my life was handed to me, working so close to Wall Street for a company that made FINANCIAL software. Oh the horror when I got my 7% bonus (taxed at 48%). Wow those big bonuses, clearly I'm part of the problem now.

I then moved onto my next job, learning another computer language, then web development, making the same money but living closer to home and eventually got tired of it. I LEFT and went back to school...a COMMUNITY college at about 2k/year so after 2 years I got out making 70k. Not exactly a big jump but a different field where I learned some healthcare and was treating patients....I did that for a number of years....still paying my bills (my college loan was paid off long ago..EARLY). Had a toyota tercel car that seemed like it was made of tin, but you buy what you can afford no? But, I went and took a bartending class and learned how to bartend. Someone took a chance on hiring me and I was GREAT on the first day and from that day forward they gave me any shift I wanted. I made them tons of money and I got great tips. I was able to have some 'spending money' and get a new car, have a few more luxuries in life and more importantly had no other debt!

I also got certified to be a personal trainer, yet another skill that cost me little, I didn't make too much doing it but the more skills the better right? I don't need a handout, I need skills and things to fall back on so in my life I will never be unemployed!

Then as I tried to get a job with a vendor in a healthcare company (Oh those terrible big bad corporations) I found out I could get into IT Project Management because of my IT and healthcare background. Wow, who knew and I finally had a 6-figure salary...5 weeks vacation and great benefits. I have continued down this road, always interviewing to keep those 'skills' in line. In the last 2 years I have had 6 jobs offers, ALL well over 6-figures and all with great benefits. I recently moved to another job where I'm closer to the mid 100's with even better benefits learning more skills and making myself more marketable. We have hundreds of openings where I am, and no one who has the 'skills' to fill them.

So lets summarize: There are jobs out there, you just need to take some chances, work from the BOTTOM, deal with less and stop thinking the world owes you a living. You need to always learn new skills, backup skills, whatever you can do/learn in order to always be able to say 'This job is not for me', and get a new job. I still live BELOW my means and save and invest. No one guaranteed me anything in life. I never lost money in the stock market because I KNOW it is a gamble and I always had the insight to SELL from risky to low risk before ANY bubble burst. Call it common sense or call it anything you want. Wall Street did not 'take' my money because I learned to be responsible for MY money.

I own a 2-family home, that I bought before the market burst BUT I bought with a fixed interest rate and bought it for a 'reasonable' amount because it needed A LOT of work, which I learned how to do just about everything in it. SO my tenant pays half my mortgage (yes, I have to claim that income, but I guess I get to write things off for the rental property which is not avoiding taxes, it is working with the tax-laws that exist). It is not easy dealing with a tenant, but someday that house will be part of the retirement plan. You see, I live and plan as if SOCIAL SECURITY will NOT be there for me, as every indication is that it WON'T be and I won't be the one whining when it is that it is my entitlement. I would love to get it, but I am planning like I won't.

So you see, if you work hard, take chances, learn skills, stop blaming society, stop blaming banks, stop blaming everyone but yourself you still can get by in life. One is not guaranteed happiness in life! My story is to illustrate that it was and still is possible, the difference is you want to all blame this or that and not blame yourself for anything.

I agree that our Government is 100% corrupt and owned by lobbysists and big money...I have said it for YEARS now before anyone thought that it was, but it seems I'm always ahead of the thougth process. I said a few months back to friend that mocked me, that the debt is going to be the downfall of this country and that if we don't get a handle on it, we are done. I said you will start to see protests and things you have never seen before and they have started. I don't expect the debt problem to be fixed and I'm sure that the 30k/year that big bad ME pays in Federal Income tax (alone) every year will go up. Clearly I should pay more according to those that blame society for sitting at the bottom or near the bottom or not working harder in life.

PeanutGallery,

I went to a "Liberal Arts" college, but Majored in IT and Math. The Foreign Language I was required to take helped in my Graduate studies. The economics, ethics, political science, comparative religions, history, literature, psychology, etc. I had to take as "Core" requirements have all been useful at different time in life and career. There is nothing wrong with a "Liberal Arts" education as long as you Major in something "Useful".

It's when you Major in "liberal studies", Gender studies, Lesbian studies, Art/Music Appreciation, etc. that you get into "trouble".

DRC,

Amen, brother. I had about $40K in student loans when I finished grad school in 91, so I know of what you speak. I did 6 years living in/out of an 18"X18"X6.5' steal box while visiting the "garden spots" of the world, Persian Gulf, Somolia, Bosnia, Haiti, etc. to pay back those loans.

And the OWS types Hate us for it.

We try to at least once a week.

And what have you achieved in these 3 months? What changes have been made and what good has come out of it? Has policy changed? Is Wall Street shutting down to refocus their attention and energy on those that are standing about and chanting their rhetoric? I am confused as to what good is going to come from this as well. I only see a bunch of followers that got their degree because everyone else was doing it and they believed that they would be richer than rich out in the workforce but then......they saw the reality and realized they would have to WORK for their money.

So, what seems to be happening is there are a bunch of people that would rather walk around demanding to be heard and NOT WORK, yet complain that there are not enough jobs for them. Hmmmm

I have tried to sympathize and understand but as soon as it became violent then I understood that it was people that wanted to have any excuse for violence and to stomp their feet and fists on the ground complaining that the world owes them everything. Am I close?

I don't think the world owes anybody anything.

If I had one demand, it would be nice to make student loan debt subject to the same bankruptcy laws as any other debt. The government should not be guaranteeing that debt, the lender should not be guaranteed repayment, and the student must pay a higher rate of interest therefore.

Did you willingly accept the terms of your student debt? I accepted (and understand) the terms of my mortgage. I will do what it takes to live up to that obligation, even if it means working more.

it would be nice to make student loan debt subject to the same bankruptcy laws as any other debt.

So in other words alan, you want the education and the means to get it. You graduate, can't find a job, have no appreciable assets and file bankruptcy because you can't pay back your student loan. I get it. The "pretzel route" to a free college education. Genius. And there is a fine line between genius and moron.

jannah

I don't think you're really appreciating what alan_static is saying. He says

The government should not be guaranteeing that debt, the lender should not be guaranteed repayment, and the student must pay a higher rate of interest therefore.

Bankruptcy is not pleasant, ever. It's designed for people who screwed up. So these people clearly screwed up. To deny them access to the bankruptcy system - which will trash their credit for years after they go through it - seems cruel to me.

For instance, I took my student loans right before the crash, and am stuck with an interest rate of 6.8% even though the prime rate is nearly 0 now. Luckily I'm ahead of schedule on repayment because I'm fortunate enough to have a good job. But that loan is essentially impossible for me to modify, while all other types of loans (mortgages, businesses, etc.) are refinanced at market rates. Is that fair?

I do think more people should be taking advantage of the public service loan forgiveness program. But the way it's currently implemented, it means living in poverty for a decade.

mike--I guess I'm just old, and don't understand these things. I went to college in the '80s, and studied "Business and Industrial Supervision". I think they call it "management" nowadays. I paid for my college as I went, by working a full-time job during the day, having a part-time job on the weekends, and going to school for 3 hours a night, 4 days a week.

Disabled_Vet-2153438

I have tried to sympathize and understand but as soon as it became violent then I understood that it was people that wanted to have any excuse for violence and to stomp their feet and fists on the ground complaining that the world owes them everything. Am I close?

Right ... and carrying pistols and assault rifles to town hall meetings is OK. No one will feel threatened by that. Clown.

Mike

I sure that you think that 1000's of people showed up at Town Hall meetings armed to the teeth.

Now can you explain why NOBODY GOT SHOT??? With all those armed Nazi's running around loose. It appears that people were shot in the vicinity of the OWS protests.

Right ... and carrying pistols and assault rifles to town hall meetings is OK. No one will feel threatened by that. Clown.

It's called the second amendment. Your forefathers thought you might be enlightened enough to read the document they prepared, and understand their intent: That is the second amendment is what ensures your right to sign onto newsvine and make assanine comments without fear of a tyranical government's reprisal.

Mike,

6.8% on your student loans?? Cry me a river buddy. When I went to College and Grad school my interest rates were 9%, 11% and 13% and those were the old Government Stafford loans back in the 80s . There weren't any "private" additional loans you could get like today, and the government set the amount you could borrow based on what THEY said you needed, not what you wanted.

Dorms weren't like they are today either. One payphone for a hall of 100 guys, 10 shared community sinks/showers/etc. No cable TV, No Internet, No MTV, No PC/laptop/smart-phone, etc.

Yeah, college is SO tough today.

htdjpf

Yeah- and in the 1700's there were no cars, you had to grow your own food, life expectancy was 38 and you married your cousin. What is your point? You had it harder than people do now? It's called progress, evolution even.

"When I was your age, I had to walk 2 miles through the snow to get to school"- "We only had one payphone in our dorm!" give me a break with your boo-hoo complaints. You also had a distinct advantage in the workplace while our economy was still thriving and income disparity was regulated through progressive tax policy.

And FYI college is a whole different ballgame now that we and that the to compete in a global marketplace and now that technology has advanced beyond anything we could have imagined even just 10 years ago. You had it easy.

Scot,

Really. Economic advantage?? You obviously weren't around during the recession of the late 80's and early 90's. Back before there was and Internet and sites like CareerBuilder, Monster, and LinkedIN to help you job hunt and every company had a website where you can see their job openings and submit an on-line application and resume. It isn't "Boo-Hoo" complaining, it was just showing Mike he had nothing to gripe about.

We are under the same tax system today as we were then, only difference is that Reagan and Bush cut the Tax rates for everybody, and Clinton and Obama have been trying to raise increase them. I think the word you were looking for was "OPPRESSIVE" or "regressive", NOT "progressive"

Who do you think came up with your wonderful technology that you claim:

"technology has advanced beyond anything we could have imagined even just 10 years ago"

Just FYI. It was me and guys like me that have been working with electronics and computers since before there were IC chips. We are the ones that imagined it 10/20/30 years ago, before you were even a gleam in your daddy's eye. My you're an ignorant, arrogant, hateful, jealous, little Bugger aren't you.

Yeah, I saw how college is different today. Skip class to play "Halo3" or whatever on-line. No need to go to class, just "buy" the professor's class notes or pay the "note taker" to go to class for you. Gee, can't make that 8 am class, you'll catch it next year, so it won't hurt your Party schedule. Full class load, no way, what's the minimum I can take and still be "full time".

Word processors for research papers. Don't retype an entire page, cut-n-paste, spell-check. Dictionary? Thesaurus? What are those. Library?? Just Cut-n-paste it off the Internet somewhere. Plagiarism? What's that? Or better yet, just "Buy" a paper off the Internet or from a "Paper-mill". Exams?? No problems. Professors have to give out the questions before hand, just program into your smart-phone and copy, or have someone text you the answers. If that doesn't work, buy a copy of exam off the Internet.

Yeah, Scot. College is so much tougher today. Just FYI, I been and adjuct faculty member at several colleges, and Universities over the years. I've seen it all. College is different today, it is 100 times easier.

I'm 41 buddy- don't confuse me with an 18 year old. I am one of the people that did everything right, went to college, worked 70 hour weeks throughout my entire career, started 2 small businesses and raised a family.

Your an adjuct faculty member? Here's that definition:

Adjunct Instructor / Adjunct Professor / Adjunct Lecturer: Part-time, non-salaried, non-tenure track faculty members who are paid for each class they teach. Does not require a completed PhD or any other educational certification.

Not very impressive- but perfectly in sync with your commentary.

Oh-yeah and professor- I meant "progressive" tax system, just like I stated. Say hi to your Mom as you climb the stairs from the basement to get your Big Mac or whatever. You provided us with the technology we enjoy today? Really? Your assumptions are absurd and not worth any more consideration from the intelligent people on the site. If you had made a significant contribution, you wouldn't be an adjunct professor.

Town hall meeting armed to the teeth? Who was shot? How many shots were fired? Is that best you have to come back with? I am confused at the 3rd grade approach of your post "Oh Yeah???? Well!!.......How about the....." really? Grow up and look at the topic and attempt (try .... try reall REAL hard) to add substance to the thread, I know it is hard when others go against what you believe to be the absolute truth because you have not done too much for others.

I am yet still amazed at the amount of people that are still camping out, when do they all find time to interview for new jobs instead of crying loudly and hoping that their voices are being heard? It is going to be providing those on Wall street with large laughs for a very long time.

Point being: Yes there are those that need to correct some wrongs, absolutely but there are better ways to achieve this and by yelling and screaming when you really have not idea what you are doing or why. There was actually a younger man and a girl I think that was next to him, and he was wearing a shirt with a russian logo on the front??? Really???? If you truly feel that you dislike the ways of the US, move to Russia...I have been there and I have to tell you that you would not survive. At all.

Poetry, it's the career of the future

It's not poetry, man. It's the art of expressive linguistics. Do you know how much art can be worth? Sure, it's only worth money after the artist is dead, but there's no such thing as a perfect plan.

Seriously, I love that the student who is getting a graduate degree in liberal arts has something to say about all of this. That kind of spells out the entire problem, doesn't it?

It's not that hard to get a degree that means something. What the heck is someone going to do with a GRADUATE degree in liberal arts? That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard.

You don't actually even have to get a liberal arts degree for it to be worthless. When I was considering what my major would be in college, I initially wanted to take classes that would allow me to get into archaeology. I have always loved ancient history and I would have loved it. Then I found out that most archaeologists have difficulty ever getting on a dig (except maybe while they are a student) and unless you are one of the best, you can expect to struggle through life financially.

As a result, I switched to computers, became a Software Engineer, and I am now the Director of Software Development at a nice company.

I may not be able to actually participate in a dig, but now I can afford to actually travel to the sites I want to see.

Well said, JC. I went through the same kind of thing. I initially went to school for photography. I was pretty ok at it, but when I looked around at some of the talent, I decided that the chances of me making it to the top in that field were slim to none. I had always been a good student, so I switched at the end of my freshman year to the communications school and still graduated in 3.5 years because I cut out every BS course I could.

I remember fellow art students calling me a sellout, and that was really hurtful at the time, but I just knew that it was the more sensible course of action. It ended up being the best, and most mature, decision I ever made.

When I graduated communications was, and still is, in high demand. I got a job right away (albeit, very, very low paying) and worked my way up through the ranks in NYC until I had a comfortable lifestyle. The field continues to grow, which suggests longevity. That's what college students should be looking for when they choose a major. Otherwise, they shouldn't bother with the debt at all.

Case in point, my boyfriend never went to college, but he worked his way up the ranks in a grocery store and is doing just fine. It's amazing how many people are shocked when I tell them I'm dating someone who works in a grocery store, but I dont understand why that's a problem. I think that reaction is downright snobby. I hate the mentality in this country that certain jobs are "beneath" people.

He probably makes more than those art students that used to make fun of me and he has no debt. He has a work ethic like nothing I've ever seen. He will have a job as long as he is physically able and he has endeared himself to management (it's a family run shop) so much so that he could actually run the store some day.

Snobs can be found just about anywhere. I applaud your boyfriends drive and ambition. Anytime you do what is necessary to excel in your field, nothing but good can come of it.

Some jobs may be more lucrative than others, but that doesn't make them any less important. For example, I can't imagine what I would do without my mechanic.

Same. :-)

mellowfellow? More like strawman.

Ooops. Mellowfellow. You just released their entire platform.

Now Obama will have time to include these in the next stimulous package. Or just the next executive order. He's such a giver.

Dennis, it's easy to give things away when they belong to someone else. Comrade Obama calls that; "Sacrifice." He made a speech once, 2/4/10, covered by CNN part of which went; "Life's most sacred responsibility is to sacrifice our lives for a person in need." Pretty amazing, coming from a President elected by a free people. And, lol, coming from a Black man, what with the history of slavery and all.

mellowfello: I have seen every one of those items you listed as a "demand" either on these boards, in response to other OWS articles, or on social media sites. Thankfully, the group is entirely too fragmented to agree on a single piece of legislation to push at Congress. Have you read some of the minutes from their meetings? I understand that rallying behind a unified idea and quantifying what they mean by "wealthy", "reasonable wage", and "standard of living" will push people out/away from their movement, but is it better to stick with vague notions and ideas rather than create solutions?

Well Jenna, if solutions are offered by the OWS folks, where would the opportunity for social confrontation come from? That's the issue, confront the government and replace it. The OWS folks will continue to parrot rhetoric like; "Greedy banks ripping the people off, the rich stealing from the poor and getting richer while the poor become poorer." They'll do this as long as some people accept it as truth and a lot of people don't like the rich anyway, because they are rich. Good cliches, but not valid. Many rich don't stay rich, many lost a lot when the economy took a dive. The poor had no choice but to stay poor, they had nothing to lose. But, lol, the Middle Class is still trucking on and you see the people in the morning leaving comfortable homes, driving to work in nice vehicles, working, coming home and eating a good meal and watching stuff on good TV's or listening to music on high tech audio equipment. If they get sick they are taken care of with medical coverage, and the poor too, without medical coverage. No poor person is dumped back out on the streets to die. As for the retired, well, I've been retired since 2003 and I'm doing better than a lot of poor people. The OWS people point at a few crooks in the business world, say that they are the norm. They aren't, the majority of CEO's are rigidly ethical. Lol, I found that out when, as a new production foreman and began "Cross-training" in management, I walked into the Accounting Dept making the wise-ass comment; "So, this is where the bottom line means anything the company wants it to mean." I got leaped on quick, "NO! That will not go here, George will not allow it." George was the CEO. I didn't stay in management long, I moved on to another company because I wanted to use my skills as a Maintenance Machinist, not sitting and telling other people what to do, and, worrying about some woman or bunch of women filing some kind of bogus sexual harraasment charges. That happened but not to me, it happened to one of my male employees who, when "Hit on" by some provacatively clad female employee, told her to "Put her tits back up and get lost." Well, anyway, I can only speak for myself and I've listened to employees in lunch rooms talk, going on about how so and so just got a raise, how this or that person kisses the boss' ass. Lol, because the employee did what he/she was told to do. Ok, whatever, I'm 70 and retired now. I have never demanded, or expected anything from a company but my paycheck. I operated on "Value for value" and tried to give equal value for equal value trade.

Talking about tea baggers right?

Talking about tea baggers right?

Yes, because that was prevalent at SO many tea party rallies. You remember all the illegal campouts, drug use, violence and rape.

I believe he is referring to the flea-baggers. AKA OWS.

beg to differ - this rabble has very very little in common with the Teaparty

I definitely agree that many of the issues that supporters of both OWS and the Tea Party are complaining about really stem from the same governmental defects. I think both sides would support the goals of the American Overhaul Act (www.americanoverhaulact.org). These amendments should go a long way to getting our government back on the right track!

Bailey - You obviously have been listening to MSNBC way too much.

You have no concept of the Tea Party's intent and purpose. Not to mention the level of sanity of the of the members. Or their personal hygene, their ability to walk and chew gum at the same time, think rationally, not threaten to kill, beat, burn or do general harm to everything around them.

You need to cut down on the kool-aid and remake that appointment with your doctor that you cancelled. Your'e grasp of reality seems to be slipping.

Dennis-3947103

Bailey - You obviously have been listening to MSNBC way too much.

You have no concept of the Tea Party's intent and purpose. Not to mention the level of sanity of the of the members.

Are you saying the average tea bagger is more sane than the average OWS protester? LOL! Maybe you missed the rally where people dressed up in powdered wigs.

On top of that - tea baggers have no idea what their own name means. Some say it means taxed enough already - some say it is in resemblance to the tea party movement (which shows them for the historically ignorant fools they are).

Mike

I guess you missed the nudity in the OWS Protests. I guess you missed the defecation in the OWS protests. I guess you missed the rapes in the OWS camps. I guess you missed the robberies in the OWS camps. I guess you missed assaults in the OWS protests. I guess you missed everything.

Yet you come up with "people dressed up in powdered wigs". Big difference here don't you think???

I guess you have a problem with reality.

Maybe the people of thee tea party and the people of OWS. But the organizations are quite different. The TEA Party was corporate-backed and their message was one of being taxed too much (Taxed Enough Already) and they wanted the government off their backes. Even though most of their protesters were on some ffoem of government program (SSI, 'caid, or 'care).

The TEA party protesters were used by the corporate elite. Most of the TEA party are members of the 99% that point is not even debatable it's just fact. The Occupy Wall Street protesters are not protesting against the general income tax rates. They are protesting against an economy that over the past 30 years has driven opportunity and prosperity away from the majority and toward the supreme minority.

If the TEA party and OWS protesters were the same then you wouldn't see the police cracking down on the OWS protesters thee way they are. Have you ever heard the expression that 'Money talks; Bull@!$%# walks'? Well, what the police are doing is essentially bull@!$%#; can money be far behind?

Your comparison is stupid on it's face. The TEA party never broke any laws, they didn't cost the places they protested money, and they left their protest sights clean.

You are right if OWS WAS like the tea party you wouldn't see the police cracking down. If OWS was as disciplined as the TEA party, I could respect them.

see my post above-they dont want to work why they protest

Sorry, I believe in actually coming up with a solution instead of demanding that others pay me more than I was worth for doing very little. I enjoy working and taking the grand look at the things that I have worked hard for instead of committing senseless violence thinking that I could because I have an excuse.

How about this: Join the OTM.... not sure what that is? It stands for OCCUPY THE MILITARY!! Yup, thats right, if you want to fight for a cause, join the military and do your part! What? You are scared? You would rather stomp your feet and call yourself a warrior on wall street? Well then, I guess we can see the extent of your ability to fight for a cause. I will tell you what, go ahead and fly on out to Russia and fight for some causes out there and see how you are treated. I will chip in as I am sure others will as well.

But you will not, you will just complain and use social networking to convince everyone on your friends list that you are correct in your cause and yet have nothing to show as an end result. 3 months and no demands yet? hahahahhahahahahha I am literally rolling on the floor laughing so ROTFL hahahahahahahaha You made me pee a little!

I like that...Occupy The Military.

Do we really want some of those protesting with a weapon. They can't even think for themselves.

Donna, everyone has a place:
-Protestors are more than qualified to:
*Peel potatoes
*Wash dishes
*Wash clothes for operating soldiers
*Move food that comes in on trucks so the soldiers can sleep instead of more work
*Take the "watch" when they come home so that they can enjoy their time with their families
*Clean (not carry) the soldiers firearms (even though they would rather clean their own.....vital to KNOW your weapon)
*Clean bathrooms
etc.

I dont see them rushing to the recruiters office though, sad, so very sad

And, Disabled, the first time a protester recruit told a Sergeant to "Kiss his ass, he'll get up when he's ready to get up," lol, well, there's always stockade time or if he wants to protest further there's Leavenworth. Lol, talk about a restriction of free speech and movement, all the things that American citizens enjoy. Maybe we need to resurrect the draft.

Since the U.S. military is basically being used as a guard dog for U.S. corporations' interests overseas, I'm not sure how a conscientious citizen could join the army. But I do have to agree about one thing regarding these protestors. You stand more chance of success if you come up with a set of principles to agree on. The fact that they can't, that they think it would "divide" them, says two things. First, they are definite products of our marvelous modern "edukashun" system where we can't have any disagreement because everyone is right. And two, they don't really know what they're doing. They might have the right idea, but they don't have the smarts to carry through. Meaning that in the end, they're just another group of sheep.

sorry Bruce I have to work to pay my bills that I dont expect anyone else to pay. Oh yea and my taxes to so you dirt bags can dance with your tops off

ndlily - enjoying that free speech you have? Someone had to die to defend it, did you know that? Are you aware of the fact that it's our military that does this? My grandfather quit his safe, secure, well-paying State job in construction when WWII broke out because he felt it was every man's duty to fight for their country. When he came back he - in the true spirit of America - started his OWN company and made his OWN money doing so. He was able to provide a nice life for his family using his earned skills and inherited smarts. Frankly, I'm amazed you have the balls to make comments such as "...the U.S. military is basically being used as a guard dog for U.S. corporations' interests overseas, I'm not sure how a conscientious citizen could join the army." Were you sleeping in a Pakistani cave on 9-11? Are you aware that if we don't have a military to protect our country the people who attacked us then will just keep on coming? And how is the military responsible for anything happening in this "OWS" (bowel) movement? Please, enlighten me!

rufus the dufus is thinking about the Tea Party.

What do they want????? Are you serious??

They want the Fricking Dam Americans Jobs Back these Ba$$tards on Bankster Street shipped to their Communists Friends in China.. They want income equality again where CEO"s don't get millions in bonuses for screwing American workers?

They and all Americans want the promise of the American Dream again.. What a stupid title of an article by a dumb ass journalist who must be blind to ask such an idiot question.......

that could be because this country was found on godley values!!!

I agree with the tax payer backed elections, however... You really can't eliminate any laws unless there is a concensus. If you do otherwise it is oppression. Abortion - aka. ending human existence based on an arbitrary value of his or her life, again oppression. Everyone has a view point. Religious, non religious, just something for people to argue about.

George: Yes, godly values like slavery and oppression of women. I would like to think that we as a society has evolved from that frame of thinking.

So you resisting others telling you what to think about abortions, gays, etc by telling them what they should think?

Yeah! Can I have one of those $100k jobs? Oh, wait--I have a job. I work at a lumberyard. It's not the most glamorous job, but it's a good, honest line of work that pays the bills.

Me too sign me up !

jannah...A recent study was done on how the 1% get those 6 figure jobs. You won't like the results done by a Nobel Prize winner. The claim that the ultra rich work hard is nothing more than a self-acclimation by them and only them. They credit themselves with outcomes they had no real responsibility for.

Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize Winner for Economcs pointed out that these claims of success are an illusion. The study he performed included 25 wealth advisers over 8 years. He found the levels of their consistency of their performance was "zero". In other words, a roll of the dice.

In another British study, 39 senior managers and CEOs from leading businesses were tested and results were compared to patients at Broadmoor Special Hospital for those convicted of serious crimes are incarcerated.

In terms of pyschopathy, the 39 senior managers and CEOs scores were matched or exceeded those of the Broadmoor patients. This proves the point that intelligence isn't a factor in wealth. It's more a case of risk manipulation for the best personal gain.

So the hard work of my grandfather running his conrete/masonry country post WWII and is subsequent 6 figure income had nothing to do with his honest, hard work? I suppose the skin cancer he contracted from the chemicals in the concrete from years past was what - bad karma for not legitamately working for a living? I remember his boots being so pasted with cement I was unable to walk around in them as a child. I remember him having such a sore back on weekends he was barely able to get out of bed and him blaming the bed instead of the hours of bending screeting concrete with a long 2 x 4 and putting sidewalk breaks in with a 4" trowel. Not everyone earned their money on the backs of someone else, keep that in mind when citing BRITISH research for AMERICAN issues!

NorthernRed...Let me restate...not everyone who owned a business did it off the backs of others. Small business owners are usually the only ones who break a sweat trying to keep their businesses afloat against huge competition from Bigger Corporate Whales.

Satisfied now? Course, you do have to explain how many men died working on railroads that made Rockefeller a wealthy man or the rest of the Robber Barons who worked men and women to death, right? How about that NY factory that burned women and children (this was before child labor laws) to death? Who got wealthy forcing them to work in hazardous conditions for a pittance?

It is a sad legacy when the wealthy of today can whine about the cost of labor even as they live in multi-million dollar mansions they didn't earn without the help of their employees, consumers or taxpayers.

Get Big Business out of government and your deficit will shrink posthaste.

ewent,

Your flawed "logic" shines bright again. NO one "FORCED" any of those workers to work under those conditions. They were free to quit or choose not to report to work anytime they wanted, as long as they were willing to accept the consequences of that choice.

Big Business in government has NOTHING to do with the deficit. Supporting "Social Entitlement Programs" like welfare, medicaid, HUD, HHS, etc. take up over 75% of the Federal budget. The rest is regulatory, Defence, and everything else. So getting Government out of the SOCIAL ENGINEERING business would have a far greater affect on the deficit, but you could never convince a hard-core, far-left, liberal hater like you of that.

ewent--what's all that have to do with what I said about my already having a job? Did I say my goal was to make $100k a year? No. You need to lighten up and learn to recognize sarcasm when you see it!!

ewent, government is big business. the biggest in America. It employs more people (including those on welfare) than any other company and it uses the American people as credit cards.

Puke.....did you look in a mirror today ? Thats probably what you did when you looked in the mirror...get a life loser !

I tend not to take my history lessons from someone who can't punctuate a sentence properly or use proper grammar.

What I find amazing is that the very people who want the cheapest labor going are the ones who see no relationship to indentured slavery or slavery and communism.

Strange that those who hate socialism see no corporate socialism wherein corporations help themselves to money they didn't earn that comes from taxpayers who did. Funny how those who call others communist are the first to try to revert American labor back to communist labor camps.

Ewent: Exactly right. Complete Control of the Masses is the Goal and low wages is the starting point. When people have to work each and every day just to put food on the table, then that is complete control.

ewent,

The fact that you don't know or won't see that there is a world of difference in our "free market" employment system and indentured servitude, slavery, orcommunist labor camps is appalling. That you would even DARE to compare them as equals disgusts me and is an insult to every citizen of this country and every veteran that has served in its defence. Anyone that doubts this need only Google Stalin-Labor Camps, Cambodia-Killing Fields, or Kimier Rouge and Pol Pot.

Are you a Troll, ignorant or just stupid?

Indentured Servitude is: refers to the historical practice of contracting to work for a fixed period of time, typically three to seven years, in exchange for transportation, food, clothing, lodging and other necessities during the term of indenture. most were under the age of 21, and most became helpers on farms or house servants. In terms of living conditions and discipline, they were usually treated like relatives. They were not paid cash.

Slavery: Slave were considered actual property of the owners and were not give full "person hood" rights and protections. Their live were completely controled by "Owners".

Communist Labor Camps: Were essentially concentration camps or prisons for "political prisoners" sentenced to be worked to death for opposing the Socialist/Communist party leaders. I.E. Not doing what the "Government" told them to do, give up what the "government" wanted to take from them, etc.

I'll admit the mandatory work rules in many "UNION" state might border on these, you want to work, you join the union and pay, but not Right to Work states.

Why have we not heard a single NEGATIVE description of this OWS from the main stream media? The tea party was and still is, accused of being racist and reactionary, a bunch of red-necks. They were all called VIOLENT because of one shoving match involving a non-tea partier who was trying to make the tea party members leave a public building that they had obtained a PERMIT to be in. ANd by the way where are the PERMITS for these slugs? Well, you see they don't have any, not a one. They have not been required to obtain them, althought the Tea Party was made to PAY FOR and OBTAIN a permit for each and every single meeting.

Lets not forget all the nazi signs they carry around at their events. They are brainwashed by the people who are only wanting to help themselves, not you, not me, themselves. You people would eat lead if they said it was good for you, without any of you questioning it. It still boggles my mind wondering why many on here dont understand the OWS movement.

Look at the pictures, Do you want these loonies running (ruining) our country. The Democrats are already doing a very effective job of that.

There is no movement, it's Soros and Obama paid union thugs and communist anarchist.

These lowlifes don't want jobs, they want Obama's promise of turning America into a Socilist country.

Ben Ben: people don't understand the movement because the movement itself is fragmented and without a unified voice. I have heard/read so many conflicting ideas from people claiming to be part of the OWS movement. This leads people to form their own opinion (or an echoed one from news sources) about what OWS stands for. You can't blame anyone for being confused. I've been trying to figure out what the movement actually stands for, and the best I can come up with is "change", but they don't have a solidified voice telling people how to bring that about. Hence, the article talking about how they are in disagreement about creating a unified voice with demands.

Ben Ben:

Are these the same "Nazi" and "Racist" signs that none of the "Mainstream Media" has ever been able to present photographic evidence of?? But only have paid employees of Groups like ACORN, MoveON.org, or the Huffington Post "Claim" to have seen?? There are several news organisation offering 5 figure "rewards" for anyone that can produce authentic video of what you claim at a Tea Party event. To this day, not one person has come forward, yet there are thousands of hours of Tea Party video on YouTube.

Or are you talking about the ONE sign that the paid MoveOn.org activist tried to repeatedly to carry into Tea Party events with picture of President Obama with a Hitler mustache and "Democratic Socialist" on it, only to be told she had to leave and then pitched a fit to draw the "Mainstream Media's" attention to herself as she was getting "kicked to the curb". So whom did they choose to interview?? Humm.

Well??

NJ Guy's comments about a third party may be on to something, I heard Tom Brokaw on Ronn Owen's show on KGO (San Francisco) this morning. He mentioned people looking for a candidate for just that, a third party. We're sure gonna need something powerful to fundamentally change the practical corporate takeover of our elections and elected representatives. Like laws to prevent such a thing, and we can do this in the U.S. with enough support.

Agreed, but you should also pay taxes and not out source all your work while you get huge tax breaks and write offs from the American government when all your workers are over sea's and you are making all of your profit from Americans. Then you cry about hard ship and get Gov hand outs that you filter to your CEO or shareholders while laying off any American workers that you do have and or milking out their retirement that you promised them is not the American Dream.

I agree with both, but the federal government should not regulate business to the point that it is no longer economical to create jobs in America. The Federal Government is the biggest "milker" by stealing the money that was designated to social security. Share Holders are important to a company because they are the basis behind that companies financial backing. If they are not making a return on their investment, they will no longer be shareholders and result in collapse of the corporation, resulting in job loss. Capitalism does not include government bailouts. True Capitalism would have allowed those businesses to fail. The competitors like Ford and Toyota and local banks would have gotten stronger and created more Jobs. Chrysler and Bank of America should not exist today. GM was forced to take the bailout money. research it before you weigh in on subjects you have not studied. This is the biggest problem with America. People who know nothing except what the media has told them and think they are informed enough to vote the proper way. This is why our hole is getting deeper. educate yourselves before it is too late.

All government guaranteed loans should be made directly for a low interest. This would cut hous notes by half or more and leave trillions in the hands of our people instead of thieving banks.

Why should anyone pay a banl 600k or more for a 200k house when the tax payers back the loan?

Our bif banks have been getting billions in )% loans to play the matket. Insane! The lowlife pigs have been driving up the price of gas and food on our hurting people by manipulating the commodities market. Every on knows rhis and nothing is done about it.

We should immediately force all public owned corporations to pay our minimum wages wherever they go. This would bring back jobs and show a little regard for workers. Also, it would help to require that labor be represented on our corporate boards as Germany does.

I agree also about the bailouts. GM, BofA and all the rest should not exist today. I think the main reason some of these folks don't want to make any demands, is first they don't have any solutions and second if they did they would be labeled Socialists or anarchists, which I think most are.

I also agree with the voting issue. I really don't think most 18 year old's have a clue yet. I know I didn't and neither did my friends. We let 18 year old's vote because we had a draft and the issue was if they are old enough to get drafted, they are old enough to vote. We don't have a draft anymore, and you cant be that well informed watching MTV.

I have to disagree with all these tea partiers that always seem affected with selective Alzheimer's and can't see both sides of the issue. To AlienMartian, what part of no regulation didn't you see during the Bush's years? Now, if you could stand a little fairness, we could go way back to Ronald Reagan and we are in this second depression thanks to no regulations or weakening those already in place. You can't allow the police to police itself, it hasn't worked before and will not work ever.

FYI, don't tell me you have forgotten that the last bonnaza years were during the Clinton years when taxes for the rich were more fair. As for the federal government being a "milker", there you go again and Alzhiemer's strikes again. You can have yourm opinion, but not your own facts and trying to explain one side of the coin it weakens, tremendoulsy, your possition and you lose credibility even with some of your friends in the tea party system. There can't be a general w/o an army and there have been armies w/o generals. A nation, China for instance, is succeeding not because they are capitalist, but in spite of it. W/o the government having their hand in every thing that goes on in China, China wouldn't be what it is today and according to some financial experts, it's on its way to surpass America as the number one economy in the world. How you like them apples. A business, contrary to what you believe or say, can't exist w/o the 99%. The economical tsunami we just went through and it seems, so conveniently forgot, was due to excess by WS. Get it through that thick head of yours that social security, nor Medicare, Medicaid and other safety social safety nets had any thing to do with our second great depression. It was caused by WS and until you accept the facts, yuour tea party comments, all slogan and zero fact, won't fly. Go back and try this time to be a tad fairer.

Hellno,

China is about to get its "wake up call". Corruption in business and government are so bad there it make the US look like alter boys. As the "Business Class" gains wealth and the Political class loses power because of it, there will be a "tipping" point. China pollution and environmental problems are about to come back and bite it, just as it did in the US in the 1970's. Once the environmental protection go into place in China like they are in US, along with rising labor costs, "Off Shoring" will become less and less profitable for US corps. Then the political instability of region will kick in and the reverse jobs migration begins.

Don't forget that Clinton sold our military and technology secrets to China for campaign contributions for himself and Hillery. SS and Medicare are in trouble because the Democrats raided the "trust fund" to pay for "The Great Society" and "The War on Poverty". Who's affected with selective Alzheimer's now?? How did those to Social Engineering programs work out along with the CRA?? Yep. Pretty much complete failures in their "Stated Goals", but did create a permanent under-class of government dependant, minority, democratic, voters.

Gee, weren't the Democrats that wrote those programs the same ones that wrote the "Jim Crow" and segregation laws? Why, yes. Yes, they were.

Why should anyone pay a banl 600k or more for a 200k house when the tax payers back the loan?

Why would anyone loan you 200k for thirty years and not charge you the extra 400k, rather than not loan it to you ,be no worse off and have 200k to invest in something that will pay a better return?

So you would expect to pay back the 200K over a 30 years period and only pay the 200K principle. I tell you what! Loan me just 1000 bucks and I will pay you back your 1000 bucks in 2041. In fact tell all your friends to do it! Those evil banks want to actual charge me 5.75% for a 3.5 million dollar business loan for next 20 years. Those evil bastardssss. LOL I just signed off on such a loan this past Jan 26th. Now with that I employed 10 people directly and a whole lot more indirectly when I pay my bills and a host of small businesses that support my business needs and vendors.

Oh, and guess what happens to my 5.75% interest......it goes into a pot that is used to loan the next business a million....and so it goes. But progressives think this is all wrong. Dems have villified this practice when they themselves stand in line for the loans, handouts and nice union contracts. Obamaaa has polarized, demonized, villified and divided us to the point of no return as he smiles all the way to the bank after hosting a $35,000.00 a plate dinner with "drum roll" those same evil rich bastardsssss. LOL The union members pump in $8,000,000,000.00 in dues a year and where does alot of those funds go. Ohhh the evil rich! So OWS wants to do away with student loan, mortgage loan forgiveness, nationalize banks and oil as their list goes on and on. Seems those same concepts are working will in Europe to hear Obama praises the union controlled governments there. Working very well indeed.

For htdjpf. You can have your opinion, but not your own facts. Do you know how China deals with those accepting bribes or being caught in a corruption scandal? They are sent to the other side and not years from then, but real pronto. Here, they allow to steal over and over again and again and w/o any accountability. From Halliburton, to the former Blackwater. From the billions that disappeared in Iraq, and Afghanistan, tho the hundreds of thousands, millions that congress steals from we, the people, the taxpayers.

Now, who do you think buys those items shipped from China full of lead, full of carcinogenes: We do and congress does nothing and the president does nothing and the courts do nothing and why you ask? I'm glad you asked: Money, billions that tea partiers, republicans and some democrats get in bribes from, guess who?China. As for China being worse than us? Are you sure you know what are you talking about? Or is this a tricky statement? Or are you a tea partier, where they change the meaning of something to fit their agenda, not the truth. Let me show you what China does with his financial criminals: China executes corrupt Hangzhou and Suzhou officials, while ours are still at the helm stealing uncle Sam til the last drop. You have a phony way to see the truth. It doesn't kill you to be more informed. Of course, if you listen to the fixnews network, or Rush, the clown, Limbaugh, AKA drug addict and the rest of mercenaries of hate and bigotry, then it's expected that you can't see the forest from the trees. Remember, terrorism, bribes, corruption is in the eye of the beholder, but if you are going that path, make sure check the facts, so you won't sound like a clown trying to sell tickets to the circus.

The more I read, the more a clown you sound. FYI, the second great depression, according, obviously not to you, you can't stand the truth, but unbiased experts say that started with-this you might consider a gotcha answer-Ronald Reagan, for whom I had the disgrace of voting twice, but I didn't know at that time, the looney toon he was, but I digress. He started this economical avalanche and that BTW, he gave this nation the largest deficit ever, with a closed second that retard pervert from Texas. Did Clinton have something to do with it? Partially? Yes, but you don't kill ants and let the elephants roam wild. You sound like a true tea partier, but with no money, except that 5.00usd per hour you get from Dick Armey and his "grass roots" movement. Now, why a guy who has no money, because I'm sure that millionaires, billonaires don't have the time to comment here, ergo, what do you plan to do once you get to live under the bridge? You sound, not only like true tea partier, but just as masochistic. Let me ask, is being an idiot contagious? Why all tea partiers are affected by the same illness. You sound like slave being promised a whipping by his master and possibly death and you being ecstatic about it, so billionaires can swim in more billions. I wish I could understand such stupidity, but the more I ponder, the more confused I get. Unless of course, you want to commit a suicide, but if that is the case, why try to take us along? I'm not that stupid. That is why I'm not a tea partier like you and the other item that would disqualify me from being one: Racism and I don't have an iota of it. I think racism is another plague of Egypt, if you kinow what I mean, but I won't hold my breath.

Tea Partiers are receiving bribes from China? Really? I suppose you have some sort of proof that can be verified, right? Or, is this just another rant filled with meaningless drivel?

Why tea partiers can't understand the truth. I know they to be racist to the core, dumb and dumber as dumb and dumber can go, but maybe your problem is with definition of tea partier and there I could give you the benefit of the doubt, but since it's obvious that you can think and chew gum at the same time, let me spell it out for you. But first, let me give a background of how politicians work.

When tea partiers want money, they don't go the usual route, ahem the mafia route, that is too risky, ergo, they have to mutate if they want to succeed. Remember that hiolloween mask looking governor of Arizona? Well, she used the illegals as a way to extort money from uncle Sam and at the same time, she killed two birds with one stone. She is collecting millions from her campaign manager that receive the contract to jail the "illegals" and in that way, she feeds, fans the racism that permeates Arizona and becomes a millionaire, something that all congress does and with impunity. She might be ugly, but not stupid and she does what tea partiers do best: Milk uncle Sam and crying how "socialist" Obama is. I can't give a list of all tea partiers that milk uncle Sam til the last drop, but just let me give the most hypocritical: Michelle Bachmann, whose husband was caught milking hundreds of thousands trying their best to straight our many millions of queers. Please don't lose. Another fact that you should take into consideration is that it doesn't mean that a deviant that doesn't get caught, is not a deviant, a criminal. No, it just means that fate hasn't catch up with them. Let me mention here, so you can understand: The Penn State pedophile case. Supposedly, the accused had been doing it for decades and no cigar, but when his number came up, he will be glad if he sees the outside of a prison ever again.

Now, let me answer your stupid comment. If Bush, the retard pervert from Texaas, had any thing to do with 9/11, would you think he would allow an unbiased investigation? Of course not, because he is guilty as sin. Don't lose me now. The U.S. Chamber of commerce is run by tea partiers, just like our supreme farce, ergo, you have to follow the money trail to find out the truth. Who do you think is against the anti-bribery law? The democrats? Wrong. Bernie Sanders? Wrong again. Tea partiers are against it, because how are they going to be able to collect millions if, a la mafia, they can't? This is what I found, but don't misunderstand me, all republicans are also against the anti-bribery law. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together and I hope you don't either. "U.S. Chamber Of Commerce Battles Anti-Bribery Statute ." I hope I don't have to remind you that the chamber hates that "illegal black from Kenya" like all tea partiers, republicans. Heck, they even promised him his "waterloo." I don't know how intelligent are you, but with your comment you sound like a typical deep South citizen and just as racist, just as criminal, because if I can read between the lines and see the right intentions of people that carry racism first and last, then it's logical that they are opposed to the law, because who else is going to cover their millions they need to retire? You can deny the facts, as Herman Cain does it all the time, but for others to believe what your selling, well that is flour in another sack.

Hell no-568603, You are truley dillusional. Google "China embraces capitalism" and see what comes up. You're damn right China wouldn't be what they are today without the governments hands in everything. Human rights violations, Children literally dieing in the streets as people walk by, 64 kids in one minibus, Government corruption the likes of which America has never seen and pollution so bad people are litterally choking to death in BeiJing. What an awesome job Government regulations do to protect its citizens huh? China's economy is building IN SPITE of their socialistic and communist ideologies because they have recently thrown a CAPTILISTIC ball on the feild, where as America, because of communists such as yourself, is headed down the EXACT OPPOSITE road. America's economy is failing because of a socialism CANCER that is killing it! Carter and the fair housing ACT in the 70's got the snowball rolling and Pelosi and her croanies have been feeding it at every opportunity. You, moron, are the one who knows NO facts. Here's one for ya, the only reason the economy was good during the Clinton years was because he wasnt such an idiot by SCREWING UP ALL OF REAGAN'S HARD WORK! Odumba, on the other hand, is the poster child for EPIC FAIL. How long can a grown man keep blaming everything on the guy before him? I do know that when Bush left office, unemployement was at 4.8% WHAT IS IT NOW?! WHAT IS IT NOW?! You liberals can do nothing but call people racists because you have no other argument! When in fact, the democratic party has the deepest most sinister history of racism than any other party! Here's some reading for ya!http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121856786326834083.html

That's from the WALL STREET JOURNAL! not just some independant news flub. The fact that most blacks are part of the Democratic party to this day amazes me! It was the Democratic party that fought LINCOLN (a republican) AND the 13th, 14th and 15th admendments....quick, without cheating, what do those amendments refrence? YOU DON'T KNOW! Because if you had ANY IDEA about what our constitution said and knew ANYTHING of the history of our country you would BEG forgiveness of the Teapartiers of whom you so despise and be their loudest proponent for good. You are a racist. You are an embicile. You are a uneducated and I AM BEGGING YOU to stop listening to the liberal media long enough to discover the true facts behind the things they lie to you about. Stop being a sheep. Discover the truth for yourself.

Bobb, you love your country but not the government? C'mon, they're one and the same. Is it the name "America" that you love, or the flag? If so, why? Did the name America or the flag guarantee you freedoms? Sure, American is beautiful, but, did the Grand Canyon give you freedoms? It's the government that provides freedoms, it did, it does today. You are free to vote, to move around freely, to get or quit a job, associate with whom you please, as long as whom is not a criminal element and even then, if you stay from committing crime you can associate. I love my country too, I enlisted and served three years because I loved it, and, I took the vow to defend the Constitution, the tool by which the government provides freedoms.

Mellowfellow, Yes, I love my country but not its current government. I don't see how this can be confusing for you. I enlisted as well. I believe in defending my nations constitution, also. But our current government does not. I love the history of my country. The horrible things we have overcome. The strength we have shown the world. The un-paralelled beauty it holds. The success it has had and dominance it has held for a very long time. The Formula our forefathers devised was as close to perfection as humanly possible and it was inspired by God and everything good. The great individuals this country has developed and nurtured by its freedoms is unmatched in the world. People of the world dreamed of moving here and some still do. The "government" we see before us today is a bloated, disfigured shadow of what it once was.

Alien...Well said...I cannot support the people who want to fundamentally change our country....Those things they want to change are what makes our country great....We need to go back to a less but more effective government that understands what made our country the greatest, ever.