That's the problem...they don't!

So, will someone, after 2 months of this nonsense, PLEASE explain to me and the rest of normal America just exactly what these mobs want?

In four, two to three word statements, tell me exactly what the purpose of this "movement" is. Something simple like the TEA Party has.

1. Taxed enough already.

2. Constitutionally limited government.

3. Fiscal responsibility.

4. Free-market principles.

This is very simple and very descriptive of their movements goals.

Unless these OWS buffoons can do this, their argument is nonsense.

"Unconfirmed" bulldozers? Hyperbole much?

It's kinda cold there. I think water cannons would be pretty effective right about now too. Instant shower for the filthy masses and it freezes these morons out of the park. Kill two birds with one stone.

Get a permit or pay the owners of Zucotti Park with all that money you've taken in. To refuse confirms the most basic premise the opposition holds which is that the OWS idiots are a bunch of freeloaders.

Do you knuckleheads realize how idiotic you sound to the rest of the world?

And the Average Citizen, the Middle Class, the 99% suffer.

A great majority of the world live on less than our bottom 10%. The 99% suffer? This is a bold faced lie, and you all know it. You are as bad as the worst politician, as you obfuscate the real problems with your childish lies.

There are about 15-20% in America that could benefit from healthcare, the rest are covered. Most all our citizens have a place to live, if they want it. The vast majority have enough food, and with some wise distribution, 100% could be fed just fine.

The incessant foolishness bitching about 1%, many of whom support and fund the vast network of charities, shelters, and fund research.

Sure we have some problems. The government is incompetent, wasteful, corrupt, as are some segments of private industry. But please, 99% suffer?

Great idea nonkjo, maybe those water cannons can clean some of the dirty stench off of those FLEABAGGER scum bags.

They want working people to pay for their health care, education, credit card bills and everything under the sun, they are the greedy...

First I see it is curfew. Then safety. Now it seems it is a health issue is it?

Yes..there are multiple violations. What about "multiple counts" do you not understand.

Hmm. In fact this is the law being USED and subverted to fit the agenda of those rats who choose to look away from the rights our citizens have to assemble protest and declare grievance.

A. You've been protesting for 2 months. No one took anything away.

B. You've "declared" your grivenace. Petitioning for "redress of grievances" is an entirely different thing and no OWS group has done that.

Face it, the momentum keeping this going is the internal counter-culture echo chamber in each OS general assembly where everyone seems to agree with you. The fact is, there is a whole other world out there and if you were really the 99%, you wouldn't need this stupid protest because you'd have the votes to get it done in November 2012. In actuality, you don't have the votes which means you're not even the 50%! But you know that too! That's why OWS needs the media coverage. OWS is like one of those animals you see on Discovery that puffs itself up to look bigger than it actually is because they know that they aren't big enough o go head on with the apex life forms.

What is it that is so utterly difficult to understand about the protest?

1. Industries are gambled upon (housing collapse) and law is enacted by the lobbying that only the 1% can afford. They are the hand that feeds the giant which makes our corrupt government.
2. The argument of the 1% was that their gains will trickle down to every American. It has not. Our most important individuals - soldiers, policemen, teachers - are paid less and less, as our schools crumble, infrastructure rusts, and jobs are sent overseas in the effort of more profits for the 1%.
3. There is an absolute media blackout on the movement, as they are equally owned by these conglomerates that have kicked the American middle-class to the curb. It may be hard to believe, but they have lied to you about who the people are that support OccupyWallSt. These are regular people who have had blue collar jobs, comfortable office jobs, to get kicked to the curb as Wall St DEMANDS ever-increasing rise in profits.
4. OccupyWallSt is supported by donations of their supporters and nothing else. They do not exist on the backs of taxpayers.
5. It has been found in the past week that Congress is immune to insider trading laws (pelosi has made millions on insider trading before the recession), the same time police have raided several massive protests. This would also explain why Wall St has so many of their board members in Congress (the past few Fed Chairmen have worked for Goldman Sachs).
6. YOU HAVE BEEN LIED TO BY OUR GOVERNMENT, which is merely a puppet of a network of transnational corporations with no affiliation to country or care of its people. The two party system is supported by private companies (which created CPD) for ease of controlling the political process in America since the 80s. Every free-trade agreement has been for the hands of these transnational conglomerates and not of their citizens. Police have been continually militarized. A secret interpretation of the Patriot Act will not be released to the press. Look around you! Why do you have to file for a license for freedom of speech? Why are there specific "zones" for freedom of speech? Your rights have been trampled upon, and your tax money taken to give to the 1% rather than your own community.

"Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society. This is true since the members of legislative bodies are selected by political parties, largely financed or otherwise influenced by private capitalists who, for all practical purposes, separate the electorate from the legislature. The consequence is that the representatives of the people do not in fact sufficiently protect the interests of the underprivileged sections of the population. Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights." - Albert Einstein

lifeinaraindrop

What is it that is so utterly difficult to understand about the protest?

lifeinaraindrop -You are correct.

Why is it so difficult for some people to understand why the OWS protesters are demonstrating and why the OWS has become national movement.

The American People have been totally financially and politically trampled on.

Yet, there are obtuse people on this forum - wonder and ask "what are the protesters complaining about?"

The goal of these raids is to continue to let the 1% control every aspect of our citizens lives - and to "go back to business as usual."

...how UnDemocratic.

Death to the enemies of the corporate state! Kill the traitors! Doubleplusgood!

WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

FOX IS NEWS

We love Big (Koch) Brothers.

Hundreds of police officers, some in riot gear, descended on Zuccotti Park after midnight Tuesday...

If Occupy is an idea - movement - whose time has come, no amount of brute force will be able to squash it.

Kater Murr

Death to the enemies of the corporate state! Kill the traitors! Doubleplusgood!

WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

FOX IS NEWS

We love Big (Koch) Brothers.#1.21 - Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:20 AM EST

Kate:

Let Corporate Exploitation Stop

Corporations that do not pay TAXES are the traitors.

War is War

Freedom is the ability to exercise the 1st Amendment

Ignorance is the Tea Party

Fox is BAD NEWS

We love OWS!

25Walker

Thanks for the gloss on my post. It might be useful to people who don't get irony.

By the way, Kater is the German word for tomcat, as in E.T.A. Hoffmann's character Kater Murr, protagonist of the novel whose English translation is titled The Life and Opinions of the Tomcat Murr.

Presidente Obama-

Please send in UN airstrikes to help the protestors, just like Libya. Or, maybe you could call for the ouster of the president, like you did in Egypt. You support the revolution of freedom-loving people, right?

O'bama led his sheep out to pasture, and then left them to fend for themselves. Where are the Democratic party leaders? Why arnt they out there front and center with the protesters? They need your help Shepard!

Syria must be proud of Bloomberg

Hell, I've been drooling just waiting for it to happen.

@lifeinaraindrop: These two don't make the least bit of sense. I see non-stop news about OWS. Everywhere I look, I see something about it. A blackout? Hardly. As far as money, the movement itself may be based on donations, but what they want is for taxpayers to pay for all of the things they want without them having to actually work for it.

@Everyone who supports OWS: Change your slogan. More and more of the general public are getting sick of hearing your 99% claim. You can't even get 5% of a city that you're in to join you. 95% of the general public don't care about your movement. 3% think you're right, but they see that you aren't doing anything besides complaining. If you want change, you have to provide alternatives and options, which OWS isn't doing. OWS just says "change it"... without viable options, it can't be changed no matter how much you complain. Provide viable options and present them. Only then will you really have a movement. Right now, you're just a mob that is increasingly seen as a bunch of spoiled brats. If you present alternatives that will actually work, those 3% will join you. That leaves 2%. You already stated that 1% is the rich. That leaves 1% that is OWS. You aren't the 99%. You are just another 1%.

Yes, government is corrupt. Guess what. All government is going to be corrupt. You'll never get away from that. You can still make changes and laws to help curb the corruption, but you can't just expect there to be no corruption. You aren't going to get the nicest and most moral person to be president. He or she just simply doesn't have the skills to do the job. Part of running a country well is knowing how to push people around and pull strings to get the most out of the rest of the world.

Yes, the two-party system is broken. Both parties are all out for themselves and not for America. They are good at brainwashing their party members into thinking that they are worthwhile. But in the end, they haven't provided good candidates in a very long time. They only offer candidates who will further the goals of the party. They don't care about America as a whole.

No, the rich aren't all evil. Sure, there are those who are corrupt, but there are plenty of people in poverty who are corrupt. That's a main reason why welfare is so screwed up. It doesn't matter what you have for money. Corruption is everywhere equally. The media just loves to point the blame at the famous, so it appears that the famous are the only ones who are idiots. IT is everyone's right in this country to try and make money. There is and never will be a law that states you can only make money until you have $X and then you aren't allowed to make any more. If people are able to make money, they should be allowed to. You'd complain just as much if you struck it rich somehow (such as the lottery) and were then told that you weren't allowed to be rich and had to donate or pay taxes so that you only received $100,000 or whatever. After all, according to all of you, it's wrong to be rich. Yet if you had the money, you would change your mind very quickly. That's the definition of hypocrite. And to be clear, I am just barely above the poverty level myself. But I have worked hard all my life for what I have. I don't accept charity even when I could use it. I've been without a place to live and had to camp at a beach. So I do know what it's like to be poor. But I also know how to overcome challenge. I know how to work hard. That's something OWS doesn't understand.

If you guys want support, then do the following:

1) Police yourselves. Do not allow anyone to vandalize property. Do not allow any fighting or rape. Do not allow theft. If you catch anyone doing those things, turn them into the police yourselves. Right now, you appear to be little more than an unruly mob. You'll never succeed with that image.

2) Don't prevent other people from doing their jobs. You aren't helping anyone if you keep others from earning a living. You're only hurting people... people like you. Blocking ANY business is not only illegal, but it keeps the everyday worker from going to work and making money to feed their family. You'll never have enough support if you prevent people from earning a living. This also includes blocking traffic.

3) Present a clear list of what you want. Right now, the "list" varies depending on who you ask. Make a clear list and make sure everyone there knows what that list is. Then present it. In addition, make sure you have alternatives and options that are VIABLE for each of those items. By "viable" I mean that it has to be a workable option. You can't call for the closing of all banks. That isn't going to be an option. You can't call for the closing of corporations. That won't be an option. Choose options and alternatives that are reasonable and possible. Then present those. Until you do this, you're doing nothing but whining and you'll never create any change whatsoever.

4) You will continue to face sweeps due to health issues if you don't keep things cleaned up. Prevent your group from littering and leaving trash all over the place. Make them put trash where it belongs. Keep the area clean and not only will in be a better place for you to stay, but it will reduce the chance of people getting sick. Do that and there won't be any reason for the city to clean it for you.

5) Find a way to keep yourself clean. Even your own supporters comment about how bad it smells. Obviously there aren't showers available, but people have used other means to keep clean long before there were showers. Even sponge baths are better than nothing. Or ask at least the local people to go home for a shower once a week (or more often). It won't hurt your movement for people to go shower and come back.

Do these things and you might succeed to getting more support. But right now, you don't have the support of even 25% of the population, let alone 99%. You should really change your slogan because the longer you claim to be 99%, the more support you lose from people tired of hearing that lie.

Camps in "New York and other Occupy camps in Portland, Ore., Denver and Oakland, Calif."

All bastions of liberalism.

So what were the protests actually about, other than an opportunity to be involved in a 'protest', and what realistic demands did they have?

Perhaps if they were able to articulate something that makes sense, it would gain some sympathy, but simply saying "Some people are rich and others are poor" just doesn't seem to have much of a message. People who work hard have money, and people that don't, don't.

Anarchism is not a solution - it just creates different problems.

@DrDrGimmetheNews: No, the problem is that everyone at OWS has a different agenda and different list of demands. There is overlap, certainly. But there is simply not a coherent list that can be addressed. It is very possible to "boil down" any demand to a single sentence. You can then expand on the sentence to explain it. You can't expect anyone to change anything if they don't have a clear idea of what is being asked for. And as I said above, you can't expect any change if you don't offer viable alternatives and options. "Change it" is not enough to create change.

Occupied America.

HINT: Everyone not at an Occupy location, if you need a job, look really hard right now. You have less competition while all these Occupy protesters are busy elsewhere. If they aren't looking for a job, then you have a far better chance of finding one. Apply everywhere. Check back frequently. Show them you're going to be a hard worker. And if you get a job, make sure you do what you can to keep it. I've seen people recently who would get hired and then would sleep at work, come in late all the time or not show up at all, and so on. If you want a job, you have to work. If you're fired for those types of things, then you really have no one to blame but yourself.

Neither extreme works.

The pure profit motivation got us here... where we are now... with our manufacturing going overseas to make lower quality wares for super cheap. Profit isn't everything, as Steve Jobs said.

Our throw-away culture got us here... where we are now... with our demand for cheap crap because we're fine with throwing something away and just buying another one. Buy American.

We need to change this culture, and this idea that a 'pure profit' motivation is somehow the right sort of motivation. It's not. A business that runs on ideals of quality and a sense of patriotic pride does not run the same as one with ideals of pure profit. We, as consumers, must provide the market for those seeking to make quality products - right here - and forego the cheap profit-focused junk from China. It's up to us to support those with the right priorities... quality and country first.

Profit is great too, but it should not be out of greed and a desire for larger bonuses - firing employees, moving to China, and then giving yourself multi-million dollar raises with the money you 'saved'.... What's good about that? What justification is there to complain about regulations making it too expensive to do business and firing your employees because you 'can't afford' to pay them, then turning around and giving yourself and other top-dogs enormous raises? It seems a bit... hypocritical.

The protesters got lucky that the National Guard was not called in,

A'la Mexico 1968 Tlatelolco Square massacre by the Mexican Army!

Then, look at Mexico today, 60 yrs later.

Also, look at China, Russia and Venezuela, after their struggles, 40-50 yrs later, they all got their population subdued!

And it will be the same here in the US!

Yes, if people want change, the culture has to change. The fact is that the culture changed a great deal over the last 30 years and that's why we're here today. It needs to change back to a more quality-focused culture. But that requires people to make that choice and they aren't going to. If the culture won't accept higher priced items than the government can't really force them to buy the higher priced items. This is more of a culture issue than a government issue.

As far as business owners... if you own a business, you have every right to make as much money off your business as you want. As long as you are paying your employees at least the minimum wage, then you are free to choose to keep the rest of the profit for yourself or your top executives. After all, it's your business and therefore it's your money. Of course, if you run your business like that, you might have trouble keeping employees. But that's for the employees to decide. They aren't being forced to work at a given business. They can choose to work somewhere else if they want to. Most are fine right where they are and don't really care what the higher-ups make. Now, if you have an issue with the minimum wage, petition to have that increased. Of course, that means higher prices from companies that really don't have really high profit margins to begin with. And then people will complain about inflation.

Everyone needs to stop being so concerned about what the other guy earns. Worry about yourself. Can you afford a place to live, food and clothing? If so, you're better off than people in many other countries. As long as you can provide your family with these things, you should be happy with what you have. If you can get more through your hard work, then great. If not, then at least you have enough to live. People don't need to have money to be happy. People don't need large flat screen TVs or big SUVs or large houses to be happy. Stick to what you can afford and live within your means and you'll be happy.

@JustConcerned-4468020 --

Life is not a bumper sticker.

Patriotism is not a slogan.

Freedom is not free ...

If the rights of one can be abridged, so can the rights of us all.

lifeinaraindrop - interesting premises, however...

Item 1 - It costs very little to write to your congressional representative with your grievances, just make sure that the arguments are focused and brief. Think about it the paid lobyists have very specific agendas. So far OWS does not.

If government is corrupt then start voting in people who can bring in fresh views and policies. It was no mistake that the left lost ground in the 2010 elections.

Item 2 - The fallacy of many claiming that trickle down doesn't work is that they believe it is solely the function of the 1% to support the 99%. It isn't, it is the function of everyone and when done by everyone it works very well as it is really circular in nature. You know just like water evaporates into the atmosphere and falls again as rain.

Government services - The political powers that be and the populace both screwed the pooch here. The politicians allowed big government (bureaucracy) to form because the populace thought social programs that crossed all the t's and dotted the i's were necessary. The problem here is two fold. First in that funds were spent in supporting those government entities not on the front lines or not budgeted for normal upkeep and repairs. Secondly that both the politicians and populace failed to look at what was really required for long term program sustainability.

Profits - A business that cam't create profits is one that will eventually die with a resulting loss of jobs and services. Think hard on this for it is the profitable businesses that creates the tax base that government needs to support its pay, bennies and programs.

Another thing to consider is why government and businesses are structured as pyramids. The higher up one goes in either isn't there more responsibilty? Shouldn't this increase in responsibility be rewarded if it adds to the corporate or government bottom line? Keep in mind that the bottom lines of the two are different in nature.

Item 3 - Media blackout??? Really? All those online videos and media interviews of the protesters asking what it is all about, and you say their is a blackout!

Again ypu talk profits that are rising. How so? What is an exceptable profit margin based on after tax profits vs revenue. 4%? 6%? 16%? Wnat? No doubt people can be greedy, but greed is not just in the realm of the 1%. After all don't our prisons and jail contain thieves from all income groups?

Item 4 - So OWS will reimburse the cities for the costs incurred to provide sanitary and protective services. Seems that these workers are taxpayer funded. Will OWS reimburse the cities as well as the private sector for damages that occur to private or public property whether accidental or not?

Item 5 - In spme respects you may be right, but mostly you have forgotten what the function of our republic based government is about. Reread the US constitution, the fundamentals of the republic are there and yes, in many cases current policies have aborted the original intent of this document. Seems odd, but the more the populace and politicians want to regulate our lives the less rights we have. No doubt that many regs are good for the "general welfare" of our country but many are not. The thing is, there are so many it has become virtually impossible to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

It is not wrong for government to seek out experienced individuals to manage government agencies, but keep in mind that we are talking about humans with all their individual foibles. If the activities they promote are illegal or unethical then they should be made to answer for them.

Regarding rights. Two things. When your percieved rights impinges upon anothers it is no longer a right. Secondly, when external forces conspire to disrupt our freedoms and livelyhood isn't it appropriate to enact policies that protect the "general welfare" of our populace? If you disagree, then perhaps you will not protest about where were the police or others when violence, theft and mayhem occur.

Our current system is geared for protecting the rights of the accused, not the victems. We are not like the movie "Minority report" where enforcement focused on identifying the perps first. We know crime and terrorism exists, but should we just try to be reactionists when it occurs? The patriot act and homeland security are far from perfect, but terrorism has occured within our borders. Should we just do nothing untill it is to late?

Tax money given to the 1%? How droll. With the lower 50% of earners contributing less than 3% in income taxes to the government I would say that they (lower 50%) benefit quite well from the income taxes the rest of us pay. Don't like the current tax laws (and who really does) start lobbying the government for changes. Like I said earlier, it doesn't cost a lot to petition congress.

@american-2051576: Great post.

@marklepew: You're the second person to try and twist that statement to your own needs. No movement can succeed without a clear purpose. Even very complex reasons can be spelled out in a sentence or two. After you have a clear and short statement for each item so people know what you're there for, you can then expand on those to explain the details. Right now, every person at OWS that you ask will have a different list of what OWS is there for. That abiguity is why OWS will eventually fail without accomplishing anything. You must have a clear purpose that the entire group understands or you aren't going to get anywhere.

As far as business owners... if you own a business, you have every right to make as much money off your business as you want.

Well I agree they have every right to do so - but does that make it RIGHT to do so?

That's the point I was trying to make, not only is American consumer culture encouraging such problems - but business culture also needs to change. Too much emphasis is put on profit over quality - and too many free-passes are put on the perpatrators who seek to rape and pillage their business at the expense of the consumer and the worker for the sake of the shareholder.

Both the consumer and the business needs to look to establishing an ideal of making/buying the best-quality product at an affordable price. The market isn't purely a reactionary force, it has its drivers within business itself that have encouraged this migration.

We are experiencing, basically, the same thing the colonies of the New World faced.... pigeon holed into Mercantalism. Except in this case, instead of it being Country pushing such policies onto us - it is the Corporations - who are, for all intents and purposes, little different than sovereign nations these days.

Unfortunately we find ourselves in a vicious cycle where we must buy cheap since we're not making enough money because we buy cheap - supporting business and a market which only serves to continue the problem.

The cycle must be broken, and doing such would take a cultural revolution.... something which will be difficult in this sedentary-complacent nation.

The city should garnish the bank accounts of the OWS to pay for the sterilization of the park, because thats what its going to take to get the smell out.

Does it really matter if it's "right"? It's their right to do what they want with their business and their money and anything else of theirs. You have the same rights. If you choose to buy a $35,000 vehicle instead of a $15,000 vehicle, that's your right. You could have given the extra $20,000 to charity or to the poor. That would be the "right" thing to do, wouldn't it? If you buy a $300,000 house instead of a $50,000 trailer, that's your right. You could have given that $250,000 to the poor. It's the "right" thing to do, isn't it? Everyone has a right to use their money however they want (as long as it's legal). No one has the right to tell you or a business owner that they have to give away their money to anyone else (including employees). It may be "right" to pay your employees better instead of keeping a lot of profit for yourself, but so what? Everyone has the right to make money. Business owners put a lot of money into running the business, including saving money to expand in many cases. If you give all your money to the employees, you'll never expand and are likely to fail eventually. Yes, businesses could pay more. But it isn't wrong for them to choose not to. Employees have the right to work somewhere else. Consumers have the right to shop somewhere else if they disagree with the business's practices. Guess what... very few people care.

If consumers cared, they would shop somewhere else and the business would fail or change. The fact is that most consumers couldn't care less. As long as the product is CHEAP, they are happy. Make something that is better quality (and therefore more expensive) and most will choose not to buy it in favor of a cheaper version. Businesses will make what people will buy. If people won't buy the better stuff, businesses will make the lower quality items that do sell. That's business. You make what the consumer wants. It may not be what you want, but it's what the vast majority of Americans want. You're in the minority unfortunately. And as long as that is true, businesses will make the cheaper items because those are what are in demand.

Like I mentioned, the culture has to change if you want business practices to change. Eventually, that will occur. But you won't see it in our lifetimes. It will take a few generations before people break out of the teachings that have been going around where people think they have the right to everything without having to pay for it. And government can't force a culture to change. At least not in any meaningful way. Sure, the government could pay people who buy quality products and that will help change the attitudes of people. Of course, at the same time you're creating a dependency on the government and even more entitlement beliefs. So it would be a stupid idea for the government to try to change culture in that way. Culture must be changed by the people; not by the government. And that's what OWS fails to understand. Government is corrupt, sure. But to improve the economy, to help bring businesses back to the US and increase quality of products, to help boost the lower class... these things are essentially in the hands of the people. Whatever the government does is going to make things worse in the long run.

The fact is that most Americans don't really care. That just proves that this so-called 99% is a lie. They are just another 1% group. Americans just want low cost products and services regardless of quality. Is that a good thing? Of course not. But it won't change just because this group is harassing the government and businesses.

Does it really matter if it's "right"?

Yes. Simply because you can do something, does not mean you should. Simply because a snake-oil salesman can dupe ignorant consumers, does not mean that it's ok for him to do so. The salesman should be held accountable as well.

You seem to hold a double standard for consumer culture and business culture. You agree that consumer culture should change, yet you seem to be under the impression that business culture is pure and free of blame. It's not.

the culture has to change if you want business practices to change.

Agreed. But my argument is that it is not solely consumers who determine what business does - especially in the case of monopolistic business practices. Consumers do have a BIG say, for sure, but business itself has a lot of capability in determining the direction of the market. This is especially true when business and government are so intrinsically linked. There is no 'free market' - with or without government regulation - because those in government are those in business and vice versa.

Well I agree they have every right to do so - but does that make it RIGHT to do so?

Yes, for the majority of businesses in America, it is right to do so. Most businesses in the U.S. are small-mid size companies that do not play on Wall Street. Unfortunately, we have a system that loops them all in together so while people are out railing against the Apples and Amazons of the world, and fail to differentiate, it's the smaller businesses that get hurt too.

If I start a business, I take all the risk. I have to invent the product, finance the development, pay the running expenses and make sure it all sells so that I can do it all over again. If I'm successful at beating all of those challenges, then damn right I deserve to make as much off my business as possible.

I have to invent the product, finance the development, pay the running expenses and make sure it all sells so that I can do it all over again. If I'm successful at beating all of those challenges, then damn right I deserve to make as much off my business as possible.

You seem to misunderstand what I was saying, or took it out of context. I make a clear distinction between your average business owner - and the 'too big to fail' corporatocracy. From now on, just read into the context to determine which sort of business to which I am referring..

There is a difference between making the profit you can and paying yourself while keeping your business running well and providing products - and closing up shop, moving overseas, cutting quality, exploiting the system, cutting benefits, cutting pay, then paying yourself ridiculously huge bonuses with the money you 'saved' by shunning the country, the employees, and the customers which made you successful in the first place. Doing this all while making the excuse that you moved because you weren't making enough money...

There is a difference between investing in your business, employees and providing quality goods at affordable prices - and providing low quality overpriced products while investing only in yourself. Once such things would be considered unethical, and bad business. Now - with the sociopathic idealism such as yours, such practices are somehow considered to be legitimate? So long as you can get away with it, it's ok?

Why?

The 'free market' cliche that this sort of poor business practice will work itself out is a fallacy, at best. When you're the only game in town, supported by the mayor, the police, and the rest of your cronies.... it won't work itself out. This isn't free market capitalism that you are advocating - it's pure unadulterated crony capitalism.

GOOD, occupy Wall Street is done in NYC! Now if we can just end this nightmare throughout the rest of the nation. Take it to the voting booth morons!

These two don't make the least bit of sense. I see non-stop news about OWS. Everywhere I look, I see something about it. A blackout? Hardly. As far as money, the movement itself may be based on donations, but what they want is for taxpayers to pay for all of the things they want without them having to actually work for it.

How you are wrong:

1. The media states that OWS is the left equivalent to the tea party. This is incorrect. There are many MANY different views from OWS, as it has no central leadership (which frees it from being hijacked like the tea party was).
2. The media will state that OWS has no goal. This is wrong. Their first main goal is campaign finance reform. Their second is reinacting the Glass-Steagal act. Third would be removing corporate personhood. Fourth would be election vote reform for a much more modern alternative vote system. There are separate groups within OWS and their legal teams working on this, and each group is taking on a particular issue on their own.
3. The media will state that there is widespread drugs, violence, and homeless individuals. There is very, very little of any of this taking place, and it is happening in entirely separate locations. It is expected considering how long OWS has been taking place, but it is happening in such seldom occurrence that they are using it to take a blow to OWS.
4. The concept of not paying for XYZ but taxpayers should is nonsense. I've stated earlier what they are arguing for, with the occasional moron stating they want their student loans forgiven.

@Everyone who supports OWS: Change your slogan. More and more of the general public are getting sick of hearing your 99% claim. You can't even get 5% of a city that you're in to join you. 95% of the general public don't care about your movement. 3% think you're right, but they see that you aren't doing anything besides complaining. If you want change, you have to provide alternatives and options, which OWS isn't doing. OWS just says "change it"... without viable options, it can't be changed no matter how much you complain.

Knowledge Networks conducted a survey which polled over 1,000 people who state they favor OWS (60%) favorably over Wall St & government (tied at 31%).

In addition, OWS is pursuing means of changing issues through the government, as stated earlier, but the problem is systematic and isn't as easy as writing to one's congressman. Do you think it took our Founding Father's just a few days to figure out how they are going to get the British out of the 13 colonies? They debated EVERYTHING (as OWS does), and it took months just to finalize official documentation that represented the 13 colonies.

Yes, government is corrupt. Guess what. All government is going to be corrupt. You'll never get away from that. You can still make changes and laws to help curb the corruption, but you can't just expect there to be no corruption. You aren't going to get the nicest and most moral person to be president. He or she just simply doesn't have the skills to do the job. Part of running a country well is knowing how to push people around and pull strings to get the most out of the rest of the world.

Your solution: Government is corrupt, move on. How about this? Grow a spine and fight against it.

Yes, the two-party system is broken. Both parties are all out for themselves and not for America. They are good at brainwashing their party members into thinking that they are worthwhile. But in the end, they haven't provided good candidates in a very long time. They only offer candidates who will further the goals of the party. They don't care about America as a whole.

And the alternative-vote bill is being written by OWS' legal team. With break-ups like what took place last night, it makes it very difficult to continue.

No, the rich aren't all evil. Sure, there are those who are corrupt, but there are plenty of people in poverty who are corrupt. That's a main reason why welfare is so screwed up. It doesn't matter what you have for money. Corruption is everywhere equally. The media just loves to point the blame at the famous, so it appears that the famous are the only ones who are idiots. IT is everyone's right in this country to try and make money.

You're right, however, the 1% has been shown through several forms of data that they own over 40% of the nation's total wealth. They have lobbied for tax breaks, lower capital gains taxes, and in essence, our nation has come under massive debt (not entirely their fault, but could be paid off), and as stated, the general public has been left in the dust while the 1% makes money off firing their workers to hire overseas. It is fine for everyone to work hard to make money. It isn't to cheat millions through gaining special favors of politicians for a bill through campaign financing.

There is and never will be a law that states you can only make money until you have $X and then you aren't allowed to make any more. If people are able to make money, they should be allowed to. You'd complain just as much if you struck it rich somehow (such as the lottery) and were then told that you weren't allowed to be rich and had to donate or pay taxes so that you only received $100,000 or whatever. After all, according to all of you, it's wrong to be rich.

No one ever said its wrong to be rich. Its just wrong to be a prostitute when in a position of power and influence.

Yet if you had the money, you would change your mind very quickly. That's the definition of hypocrite. And to be clear, I am just barely above the poverty level myself. But I have worked hard all my life for what I have. I don't accept charity even when I could use it. I've been without a place to live and had to camp at a beach. So I do know what it's like to be poor. But I also know how to overcome challenge. I know how to work hard. That's something OWS doesn't understand.

That's really sad that you accept such a position of being so passive in a wealthy country that has higher standards. After reading this paragraph, I have come to realize that you are merely projecting your own anxieties while upholding what little pride you may have left when you deserved better. Not only do I support OWS as a small business owner, but I've met many there who once owned an organic farm (extremely hard work to meet regulations of "organic"), not to mention the hard work of the goals of OWS alone.

I'm also ignoring the rest of your post, as everything you have stated is already in place, from cooperating with police in a continual basis (won't file an application for freedom of speech on grounds of principle), to combating hygiene, sanitary food conditions (following all health regulations, including sanitization), and a clear objective list (you're too lazy if you won't just look them up).

By your ignorance, I already proved my point of the media black-out, but also the nature of those who do not understand or support OWS - as long as you're not living in a 3rd world country conditions, you shouldn't have reason to argue. Such passive nature is not the American way.

lifeinaraindrop - interesting premises, however...

Item 1 - It costs very little to write to your congressional representative with your grievances, just make sure that the arguments are focused and brief. Think about it the paid lobyists have very specific agendas. So far OWS does not.

Hah! You're in a dream world if you believe writing your representative means anything when compared to the paid lobbyists who put a check down for said representative's campaign.

If government is corrupt then start voting in people who can bring in fresh views and policies. It was no mistake that the left lost ground in the 2010 elections.

Vote left... then vote right... left, right, left, right. Surely I'm not the only one that sees a pattern here.

Item 2 - The fallacy of many claiming that trickle down doesn't work is that they believe it is solely the function of the 1% to support the 99%. It isn't, it is the function of everyone and when done by everyone it works very well as it is really circular in nature. You know just like water evaporates into the atmosphere and falls again as rain.

Then the entire concept of supply-side economics presented by Reagan and every republican following him is flawed, as you have stated. Good. We can and should return to a demand-side economy.

Government services - The political powers that be and the populace both screwed the pooch here. The politicians allowed big government (bureaucracy) to form because the populace thought social programs that crossed all the t's and dotted the i's were necessary. The problem here is two fold. First in that funds were spent in supporting those government entities not on the front lines or not budgeted for normal upkeep and repairs. Secondly that both the politicians and populace failed to look at what was really required for long term program sustainability.

I can agree with this here only on the basis of your argument being extremely vague to all entities of the government.

Profits - A business that cam't create profits is one that will eventually die with a resulting loss of jobs and services. Think hard on this for it is the profitable businesses that creates the tax base that government needs to support its pay, bennies and programs.

That is incorrect. Profits are gains to reinvest in the business for greater growth. Many mom & pop stores across the country run a small margin into black, as they are merely the occupations of the small business owner, and not massively ambitions projects.

Item 3 - Media blackout??? Really? All those online videos and media interviews of the protesters asking what it is all about, and you say their is a blackout!

Read what I typed earlier about the media blackout. While it is utterly impossible to completely shut off communications in NYC, the police raided at night specifically to avoid press coverage, on top of zoning off press helicopters (which is beyond their jurisdiction). The general public is mostly ignorant of OWS, and if not, they are directly lied to. If any coverage takes place, it is utterly abysmal considering the nature of OWS, their General Assemblies, and how much work has been placed upon their legal teams and total organization.

Again ypu talk profits that are rising. How so? What is an exceptable profit margin based on after tax profits vs revenue. 4%? 6%? 16%? Wnat? No doubt people can be greedy, but greed is not just in the realm of the 1%. After all don't our prisons and jail contain thieves from all income groups?

Acceptable profit margin should end when it sends tens of thousands of American jobs overseas. Though, if you want to note on prisons... why aren't there major sentences for white-collar crimes?

Item 4 - So OWS will reimburse the cities for the costs incurred to provide sanitary and protective services. Seems that these workers are taxpayer funded. Will OWS reimburse the cities as well as the private sector for damages that occur to private or public property whether accidental or not?

No sanitary or protective service are needed. I've taken trips to OWS camp sites and they are clean, organized, with little damage done to private or public property. They won't be able to reimburse, but that's like stating our founding fathers should have reimbursed King George for dumping his tea in boston.

Item 5 - In spme respects you may be right, but mostly you have forgotten what the function of our republic based government is about. Reread the US constitution, the fundamentals of the republic are there and yes, in many cases current policies have aborted the original intent of this document. Seems odd, but the more the populace and politicians want to regulate our lives the less rights we have. No doubt that many regs are good for the "general welfare" of our country but many are not. The thing is, there are so many it has become virtually impossible to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

It is not wrong for government to seek out experienced individuals to manage government agencies, but keep in mind that we are talking about humans with all their individual foibles. If the activities they promote are illegal or unethical then they should be made to answer for them.

Regarding rights. Two things. When your percieved rights impinges upon anothers it is no longer a right. Secondly, when external forces conspire to disrupt our freedoms and livelyhood isn't it appropriate to enact policies that protect the "general welfare" of our populace? If you disagree, then perhaps you will not protest about where were the police or others when violence, theft and mayhem occur.

How are you in any respect, defending Congress' right to insider trading?

Our current system is geared for protecting the rights of the accused, not the victems. We are not like the movie "Minority report" where enforcement focused on identifying the perps first. We know crime and terrorism exists, but should we just try to be reactionists when it occurs? The patriot act and homeland security are far from perfect, but terrorism has occured within our borders. Should we just do nothing untill it is to late?

Tell me, how many of your rights are you willing to give for the sake of security?

Tax money given to the 1%? How droll. With the lower 50% of earners contributing less than 3% in income taxes to the government I would say that they (lower 50%) benefit quite well from the income taxes the rest of us pay. Don't like the current tax laws (and who really does) start lobbying the government for changes. Like I said earlier, it doesn't cost a lot to petition congress.

The whole concept of the lower 50% paying so little is two sided. One, most of it is a lie & propaganda to establish class division. Two, if American people generally made more money, wouldn't they pay more in taxes? Hmm...

One last note:

The housing market colapse was created by a bad bit of representation (Clinton) designed to house every American. BAD CHOICE for POLITICIANS TO REGULATE ANYTHING IN A FREE MARKET!!! If you cant afford a home WAIT UNTIL YOU CAN!!!

abattaglia, that concept is a massive lie as well. Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac trade in open markets with mortgage lenders. It is the mortgage lenders who bought these securities like they were gold, but it wasn't even Clinton who did any of this. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Would be interesting to know what percentage of the OWS crowd even votes on a regular basis.... I am guessing that the response you'd get from a good percentage of them would be, "Why vote? It doesn't do any good anyway?!"

They always have excuses for their failures. It's always someone else's fault.

Basically, what I am saying is that the expectation that pure amoral capitalism is self-regulating is just as ridiculous as the expectation that pure communism actually works.

Both philosophies are based in an ideal world - but in reality neither work properly because there will always be the exploiters, the cheaters, the power hungry, and the snake-oil salesmen.

The only realistic option is balance... maintaining balance.... maintaining as much consumer power, business power, and government power as possible while none supercede the other. If one is let to go willy-nilly, it will trample those around it... and dominate those around it.

One cannot remedy our current position as the victim of what is basically old-school Mercantalism by supporting the very mechanisms that landed us here... as an 80% consumer based economy... in the first place.

Well, shucklack, unfortunately there isn't enough differentiation - or at least the OWS can't differentiate because I've heard Occupiers on many occasions say they don't care what kind of business goes down, as long as all business goes down. It's the same way they say that if you don't agree with their protests, you are automatically a 1%-er. Annoying, to say the least.

And actually, I re-read your post (it took me a couple times to wade through all the bull@!$%#). I thought my comment was pretty benign, but you replied with this:

There is a difference between investing in your business, employees and providing quality goods at affordable prices - and providing low quality overpriced products while investing only in yourself. Once such things would be considered unethical, and bad business. Now - with the sociopathic idealism such as yours, such practices are somehow considered to be legitimate? So long as you can get away with it, it's ok?

And in doing so you negate yourself. Why is my idealism sociopathic if you claim to agree that small-mid sized business (the ones I support in my post) shouldn't be lumped in with the large MNC's? Am I wrong (gasp, a sociopath) because I believe small-mid-size business owners, for the most part, deserve to make money off of their risks and hard work? Gosh, I must be EVIL to think that way.

Clearly, you are just an extremist with an axe to grind against anyone who disagrees with your every statement.

|In four, two to three word statements, tell me exactly what the purpose of |this "movement" is.

People are still actually asking this question? lol

I think it's been rehashed, reiterated, and retold many times. But, you won't get that information from FOX or right-wing radio pundits. So if those are your only sources of news, you should be angry that they have not been informing you fully.

So we won't get the answer from you, either. Why can't you just answer the question, instead of dodging it with this "rehashed" BS? Perhaps because you don't really have an answer?

Why is my idealism sociopathic if you claim to agree that small-mid sized business (the ones I support in my post) shouldn't be lumped in with the large MNC's? Am I wrong (gasp, a sociopath) because I believe small-mid-size business owners, for the most part, deserve to make money off of their risks and hard work? Gosh, I must be EVIL to think that way.

I said 'sociopathic' as in the amoral capitalistic idealogy of 'so long as you can get away with it, it's ok (because the 'invisible hand' will push out anything undesirable)

We both know that isn't true in reality. I apoligize if I took you out of context there, but you post seemed to defend such a philosophy.

So we won't get the answer from you, either.

I didn't bother because it has already been answered... not only all over the internet, but in this very thread. 1.65 has a good response.

If I went ahead and answered you - you'd just use that as an example of 'so many different messages!' if it was even slightly different due to my own personal twist.

All in all... it has to do with corruption. In government. In business.

Clearly, you are just an extremist with an axe to grind against anyone who disagrees with your every statement

.

Lol, comical... calling me an 'extremist' while I advocate 'balance in all things' ---

I agree, Tabasco Ed. I hear a different story every day about it.

But, I'd like them to take it a step farther. Instead of sharing a list of grievances, how about proposing a real plan to fix them? How about a statement next to each grievance about how the Occupiers (as a whole group) want the government to proceed? And the trick would be that the solution has has to be realistic.

Shuklack

The only realistic option is balance... maintaining balance.... maintaining as much consumer power, business power, and government power as possible while none supercede the other. If one is let to go willy-nilly, it will trample those around it... and dominate those around it.

One of them has trampled those around it - government. They have guns, and millions of cops and soldiers. We are powerless to resist. As the song says, "step out line, the man come, and take you away". Governement dominates everything. The principle of Montesqieu (sp?) - power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. It works for corporations, labor unions, and especially - government!

Shucklack, read my post again and then do some research about small business ownership in America. My philosophy is in no way sociopathic. If you can't distinguish what I said from "move jobs overseas, take advantage of your employees, etc. etc." than you are not nearly as balanced as you claim to be.

How about a statement next to each grievance about how the Occupiers (as a whole group) want the government to proceed?

How about you don't ask for impossible things?

As explained quite well above (1.65) the Occupiers are not of one ideology. They are only united under similar grievances (which is why you often see similar grievances being touted), but their 'plans' to fix them are as varied as they are....

This only proves that the grievances are far reaching and cross ideological boundaries, it does not necessarily mean the movement itself is illegitimate, as I'm sure you'd like to garner from such variance.

Hey, crap a rainbow... you can't? Then I win.

One of them has trampled those around it - government.

Who really controls government?

Shucklack, read my post again and then do some research about small business ownership in America. My philosophy is in no way sociopathic.

What philosophy is this, again? As I already explain to you - I apologize if I took you out of context.

What I was saying is that the philosophy of (which might not even be yours) that "so long as you get away with it, it's ok" is wrong. In fact, such a philosophy is the very definition of sociopathic.

99% idealogy. Keeping up with the Joneses, bigger house, bigger SUV, bigger wide screen TV. That's what got this country into the trouble we are in now.

The One who dies with the most toys...STILL dies.

Yes, you are correct, PH.

I'd also like to know where these people get off claiming this is an illegal eviction. You may have a First Amendment right to peaceably assemble, but that right means on your own property. It does not obligate other property owners to provide you with a place to assemble. (The park in question is private property.) It also does not obligate the public to provide you with a place to assemble. Public parks have intended uses, and squatter camps is not one of those intended uses. Besides, apparently they haven't been all that peaceable, with rapes and thefts going on. Let them go home and peaceably assemble.

No, you don't win. If all the movement is going to do is state grievances without proposing any solutions, then you will lose every single time. It's not impossible at all to present solutions. For example:

Grievance: Politicians are more concerned with their longevity in Washington then fixing this country.

Solution: Term limits.

There you go. See how easy that was?

But, that would mean that the Occupy movement needs to come together as a cohesive unit and agree on the priorities. You are saying that is not possible. Fine. Then watch the movement die. No one wants to listen to whining from a bunch of people who can't find common ground enough (while they claim to be of one mind set, representing the so-called 99%) to come up with common problems and solutions.

There you go. See how easy that was?

A rather overly simplistic example, PH.

The only example I need is Democrats and Republicans. Ultimately, they want the same things. The difference is the methods they propose to meet those ends.

Both the Democrats and the Republicans want economic recovery - yet their ideas of how to furnish such recovery are so varied that ... well... some are ready to go to fists over it.

No, you don't win.

Sigh.. when I said this: "Hey, crap a rainbow... you can't? Then I win." -- it was meant as an illustration of your argumentative method of asking for something impossible/unreasonable then declaring victory if it's not provided to you.

Simplistic is good. People can get behind simplistic. If the Occupy movement wants to be taken seriously, then they need come together and come up with a list of common grievances and simple solutions so that people can understand what exactly they are following.

You can say the Democracts and Republicans have varied opinions, so its understandable that the Occupy group does as well. But that's not helpful at all. It's just more of the same and it means that OWS is no different from any other faction out there.

It's just more of the same and it means that OWS is no different from any other faction out there.

Indeed, it's not any different.

. If the Occupy movement wants to be taken seriously, then they need come together and come up with a list of common grievances and simple solutions so that people can understand what exactly they are following.

They are trying - they have managed the grievances fairly well.... but solutions are not easily forthcoming, as is pretty much the norm.

Simplistic is good. People can get behind simplistic.

Simplistic works only because it leaves out the details... and the devil is always in the details. Solutions, in reality, are never very simple. You may get backing with simplicity, since the 'unwashed mass' is a simplistic beast.... but that's as far as you will get. When it comes time to hash out the details and put the so-called "simplistic" plan into action.... it quickly will reveal just how complicated it is.

Agreed on all counts, shuckluck. If it was easy, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Perhaps the Occupy movement should focus on trying to find a way to present solutions, instead of camping out in a park. They are disrupting peoples lives and livelihoods and, even you admit, they are not building anything substantial to show for it. In fact, they are probably pushing the independents a nudge closer to the right. I'm not a teapartier, but at least they came closer to an answer and they didn't have to hurt people to do it.

And I never used the term "unwashed mass." That's all you.

Simplicity is often the smarter course than intricacies and it does not imply stupidity or anything of the sort. People like the flat tax because it's simple. That does not mean that a flat tax program is any less smart. Simple only gets complicated when people insert special interests into the equation.

Yes, it's hard. Did you think it was going to be easy? Explain to me how camping out in a park is going to affect more change than building an effective policy proposal. Are the Occupiers just going to whine about everything until someone else takes on their problems? Because that's what it's sounding like to me and a whole lot of other people.

Kudos to the Mayor. It's about time!

Yeah, the disorganization is indeed a problem.... and what they actually seek to accomplish now so long into it is beyond my understanding. They made their point, they got the spotlight... now USE it or gtfo.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid they will miss the opportunity. In this day and age - you must ride that wave of media attention straight to capitol hill... or you will get left behind as the rest of the nation gets bored and starts talking about Kardashian's divorce or whatever else.

There are though some advantages to the fractal nature of OWS, most notably the inability for them to be essentially hijacked by any particular group spouting one particular ideology. Once you see that happening, I'm afraid it will truly spell the end of the movement because it only would mean that one particular group, with the backing of lobbyists, has managed to overshadow the others. You haven't seen OWS get co-opted entirely by a particular group, like you saw in the Tea Party with the Christian Dominionists claiming to represent the Tea Party.... because, well... these political lobbyists really have no idea who to back, or how to back them due to the factionalism within the protest.

Now, that was well said. I agree.

I'd like to think that any movement that stays strong and united can prevent special interests from taking over. It just takes a whole lot of leadership and resilience. The group as a whole would have to be more concerned about purity of purpose than growing the group to make an impact - and be prepared to kick people out. There would need to be a leader that would publicly decry any other groups that try to co-op the movement. That is where the tea party failed. They were too concerned about group size, and too close to the republican camp, to push out the Christian Extremist element for fear they would lose their red supporters.

It's a shame too because they were looking like the "stay out of my pocket, stay out of my bedroom," group in the beginning which was a new and refreshing message for some.

This says all anyone needs to know.

It is too late. The genie is out of the bottle ...

BofA has already been forced to choose between profits and customers - customers won. American Express has already initiated a 'shop small' national campaign. Congress is being scrutinized for insider trading - being an 'investor' is not special anymore. People are really beginning to examine and question the 'entitlement culture' of big money. The Occupy movement has already made changes - more will be coming.

The bumper sticker slogan is 'change we can believe in'. That is not what the Occupy movement is about. Talking point politics and bumper sticker policies do not fix things.

The Occupy movement is about believing we can change things - together ...

I find it ironic that the Douchebag Party movement supports big banks, but not government. Because we all know that unregulated banks were completely innocent, and the small government that wasn't watching over them needed to be smaller so it could watch over them better.

Not saying the OWS doesn't have its own ironies, but I can't help but laugh my a$$ off at the Douchebaggers saying they have a purpose. Because as far as I can tell, a Douchebagger says they want small government, by actually wanting corporate government. And says they are representing their average citizen, while being a fan club for a group of wealthy even a Douchebagger will never become part of. (and that means ever, and forever, because I won't call them 1%, but more like the 1/2% of 1/2% who fund politicians to make sure no one else ever joins them).

AND, to top it off, the Douchebaggers hate OWS for basically believing in getting rid of a corrupt government, because, well, they aren't protesting in the' right way.' Said correctly, the Douchebagggers hate people who actually protest what the Douchebaggers say they believe in, but actually don't. Oh, those Douchebaggers, pretending they aren't as ridiculous as PETA. You just have to laugh at them.

OWS statement that they were going to shut down the NYC Subway system stepped over the line separating freedom of speech and obstruction.

Making the conscious decision to stand in other people's right to exist for their own selfish goals is what cleared the park.

It's time for all the Protesters to go home.

It was a gathering of Protest in the beginning, but like all Pied Pipers, they gather the unwanted.

Criminals, and Crime were the 2 biggest problems when the first group did not know who they were gathering. Bums, homeless, and destruction of Public Parks-

No organization, no leader breeds the drifters---Raping women, 4 people shot to death, filth, and medical problems, sleeping in the cold.

Protesters can VOTE in an election with their objections. No average person will tolerate the taking over of America an empty words, with no reasoning. Thus, their next plan was to keep all people from getting to their place of work. That would have been a real feat. They should go back to work as well.

--We sure have a lot of misfits/sickos in this country--take it back to your parents or get help.

Oh, geez. Calm down.

I'm not a tea-party supporter (as I've said time and time again) so all you crazies jumping on one sentence that was part of a great debate need to relax for a second.

I was meerly stating that it was a different argument from the typical party lines and that, in and of itself, was refreshing whether I support it or not.

And, whether you like it or not, people in this country are allowed to believe in whatever they want to believe in. If you can't embrace that, and you have to resort to calling people names, then you have no idea what America truly stands for.

WELL........Here we go......

It was only a matter of time before the OWS people were forced out. Did anyone really believe that the powers that be would simply allow this to fester and grow?? I cringed when I read the headline today because I was waiting for this to happen. I also had a premonition that this forum was going to be busy with the typical arguments that have polarized this entire issue since its inception. While there are several of you that have posted poignant, intelligent discussions, I was not surprised to see the majority of posts are nothing but mindless drivel bent on inflaming the sensibilities of those who actually understand the grievances of the protestors.

The reason why there are so many of you who do not understand the OWS movement is quite simple-

1) There are not enough Americans who are hungry or starving.

2) There are not enough Americans who are homeless.

3) There are not enough Americans who have been disenfranchised, or have witnessed their life savings disappear.

Right now, collectively speaking, we are still doing "ok". We are still wealthy as a nation, comparatively speaking. But we ALL realize that our nation is on the downward slide. We just have different views on why that is.

When the @!$%# hits the fan (and it will), and our country collapses under its own greed and avarice, we will be left dumbfounded and confused. At that moment, those who assumed that the status quo was fine will realize that it wasn't, and all this BS about the OWS protestors will seem trivial and trite.

For now, life will go on, and many of the ignorant trolls on this forum blasting the OWS will continue their lives just as they have. But dark days are ahead. So go on believing that everything is fine. Go on believing that it does not matter what the circumstances are of the disenfranchised, so long as you have yours. You are comfortable, for now.

As George Carlin once said, "It's a big f---ing club, and you and I aren't in it!"

Anyone here who has written anything in support of these moronic occupiers is simply wrong. Period. Have two words for you: PRIVATE PROPERTY. Argument over. There is no way, without completing disregarding the US Constitution and 200+ years of property law, that a judge could justify ordering a PRIVATE land owner to let people camp out on his own PROPERTY. That would be like a judge in your hometown issuing an order allowing people to indefinitely camp out in your backyard. There is no other side of the argument because it isn't an argument based on opinion. It's a constituional fact. But I guess therein lies the rub. Anyone supporting OWS obviously chooses to not live in what I like to call 'reality' and/or use that muscle nestled in between your ears so how on earth would they be able to understand the difference between fact and fiction?

Indy Patriot:

Calm down. America will survive--it is a nation of American Born Citizens and Immigrants.

All of them have the ingenuity to re create themselves, and invent.

America has withstood major Wars; The American Revolution, The Civil War, World War I, World War II, Vietnam, Korean, The Persian Gulf War, many more, including 9/11.

Americans are tough, smart. This country has it's "Dips", but it is a Resilient one, not like those in the ME, N. Africa, and others--We do not have a Dictator--it is a Democracy. Did Americans survive the Great Depression in the 30's? They did without, and still survived.

We are a tough bunch of people, mostly helping others with Humanitarian obligations, done with Pride.

Kudos to our American US Military--and our Governments.

We are the luckiest people on earth, remembering our Freedom of Speech..

Why has Newsvine restored other comments but not mine?

This is very simple, folks. The park was privately owned. The owner asked them to get out. They didn't, therefore they were forcibly evicted. If you think they shouldn't have been, then send them your address so they can "occupy" YOUR front yard. And don't bother complaining to the cops when you get sick of them. They can have all the freedom of speech that they want, so long as they DO NOT infringe on the property rights of others!

They should havwe done what the TP protesters did, and came armed.

Two problems with that statement. First and foremost, NY isn't an open or concealed carry state. So your point is moot. Second, the TP protests were pre-arranged, and legal, and didn't involve trespassing.

When you are armed, in a state that allows open carry, in a location where you arent trespassing, it's exercising your 2nd amendment rights. When you are armed in a state that does not allow open carry, in a location where you are trespassing, you are just committing a felony.

It's the whole legal vs illegal thing that differentiates the Tea Party from OWS. That, and the fact that they had a coherent and compelling message.

And of course I'm sure that's what you meant. You weren't making a smug, stupid suggestion that the OWS protestors should be engaged in firefights against the police? Right?

Why has Newsvine restored other comments but not mine?

Because you say hyperbole like "Billionaires and Trillionaires"

Boo freakin Hoo........Boo Hoo.....Boo hoo

Guess i'll just go down to the river and eat worms.

Boo Hoo. . . . Boo Hoo. . . . . Boo Hoo

What a Testimony and Embarrassment to our "great Democracy!"

These protesters are peaceful and they have legitimate grievances.

Yet, because they are demanding that the system hold accountable the felons on Wall Street, in the Big Banks and in Corporate America that caused millions of our citizens to lose their investments, retirement and pension funds - they now find themselves surrounded and tactically strangled by the NYC Police.

An overnight raid - what a Dirty trick.

The U.S. citizens have made a powerful statement to the banks that we will not be financially "milked and drained."

If the City of New York, and its leaders want to play dirty games...the citizens should hold on to their dollars...until they are again allowed to protest - and the grievances are addressed.

...the world is probably shaking its head!

lifeinaraindrop

What is it that is so utterly difficult to understand about the protest?

lifeinaraindrop -You are correct.

Why is it so difficult for some people to understand why the OWS protesters are demonstrating and why the OWS has become a national movement.

The American People have been totally financially and politically trampled on - and now with the eviction at Zuccotti Park - left PowerLESS!

Yet, there are obtuse people on this forum - who wonder and ask "what are the protesters complaining about?"

The goal of these raids is to continue to let the 1% control every aspect of our citizens lives - and to "go back to business as usual."

...how UnDemocratic.

Why has Newsvine restored other comments but not mine?

Because Newsvine is infested with paid shills for the radical right-wing corporate state. Ever notice how many hard-workin', tax-payin' real Americans post during weekday work hours? Either they're not quite as hard-workin' as they pretend, or stifling dissenting views is their job.

Ryan Peters, 29, from Chicago, who took a leave of absence from the advertising agency where he works to tour different Occupy protests, cried as he told msnbc.com's Miranda Leitsinger that about 30 people had chained themselves up inside the Occupy protest's kitchen area.

This dude took a 'leave of absence' to tour different Occupy protests??? If I were his employer, he wouldn't have a job to come back to. Ungrateful SOB!

yes, it's amazing how a few dozen old fart Sunday school teachers (in wigs) who got bussed in to corporate planned "protests" by Bluecross-Anthem and the Koch brothers -- for 1 hour "NoBama rallies" were treated like a "movement" -- while these REAL protests are being maligned by the Right-Wing Mafia... Shame.

Kater Murr

25Walker

Thanks for the gloss on my post. It might be useful to people who don't get irony.

By the way, Kater is the German word for tomcat, as in E.T.A. Hoffmann's character Kater Murr, protagonist of the novel whose English translation is titled The Life and Opinions of the Tomcat Murr.

Kater "Murr"

Thank you for totaling revealing your love of all things NAZI/German.

A more appropriate user-name for you is: Myrder - the German word for killer.

You want to see the elites bring a Holocaust to America, k. Myrder.

I am sure that you sleep well at night - as the 1% continue to CRUSH the 99%.

Do not get too excited K.

Dogges (the German word for dog) like you - can be trained to become civilized.

NYPD should be holding its head...low and in shame.

Mayor Bloomberg...is a 1%er.

Therefore, Bloomberg's actions are not surprising.

It is amazing that "in the land of the free" ALL of the protests were somehow deemed as illegal.

What happened at Zuccotti Park under the cover of darkness and in the wee hours of the morning... is more than likely just a temporary setback for the movement.

When people are awakened to the realities of how oppressed they are in society...they wake up and they dedicate themselves to equality.

K. - No ridiculous allegiance like yours to Nazism and a dedication to inequality - will stop the OWS movement!

Zuccotti park may very well have been a catalyst.

In four, two to three word statements, tell me exactly what the purpose of this "movement" is. Something simple like the TEA Party has.

Can you deal with 5 words?
"limit corporate influence over government"

If that's too many words for the T-Party, how about:
"Stop Fascism"

Kater Murr

Why has Newsvine restored other comments but not mine?

Because Newsvine is infested with paid shills for the radical right-wing corporate state. Ever notice how many hard-workin', tax-payin' real Americans post during weekday work hours? Either they're not quite as hard-workin' as they pretend, or stifling dissenting views is their job.

K. Myrder

- Progressives on this forum would be PLEASED if you take your Nazi-Loving Behind - back to FOX "News!"

Why don't you slink back to "Limbaugh Country."

Basically, this Protest became a Protest for the indignant who knew nothing about the chant was about. OWS--

We have a Democracy; Rule of Order, and rule of Law.

Freedom to Protest legitimately, and calmly--no Riots, no killing, and no taking over of Public places.

Let them start over again with some Organized Leader or Leadership.

Ahh, kids, it was fun while it lasted. Wasn't it? Now this generation can say that they've had their "Woodstock moment".

Maui2 - Really? Then what was the American Revolution all about? I believe there were riots, killing and public places taken over. --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
- Declaration of Independence

Move along nipple suckers. Buh Bye OWS

Bruce:

Nothing will EVER match the moments, marchs, and Riots of the 1960's, early 1970's.

That was an ERA never to be forgotten. Assassinations of our President, JFK, RFK, Dr. Martin Luther King, Malcolm X--whatever--Woodstock---Sex, Drugs, Rock and Roll, and the BEATLES---The never ending Viet Nam War who everyone Protested--How about Hanoi Jane--Jane Fonda?

One would have to have been there to see real Protests--Activists, and Anarchy.

It kept the Swat Team and the Police very busy. .

Now that you have been long overdue and rightfully evicted let your voice be heard at the ballot box.

Become a movement like the tea party, and elect people of like minded goals and principals. The tea party did it and so can you. I encourage more than just the two main political party. This is good for US politics.

Do this instead of ramming down our throats your idea of what is fair. Tell your elected representitives what you want. Let your voice be heard in how you shop, this will send a message to the corporations. This is how rationale people do things.

Shuklak... I know what you're speaking about, and I agree..... to a point.

I don't by GE... because they've sent the jobs oberseas. I don't buy Nike, or Wranglers, or Levi, or Izod, or any IMPORTER of products. I do all in my power to buy AMERICAN. It is possible. New Balance for example makes a line of sneakers (I know I'm showing my age calling them that.) in the USA, which is the ones I buy.

It's your decision where to spend your money. I spend mine HERE in the USA as much as possible to help keep my neighbors across the country employed. What's your decision?

25Walker

Are you on drugs? Look at my profile, read my other comments, examine my book recommendations, and tell me where you get the asinine notion that I'm remotely sympathetic to Nazis. Even the post you quote above is directed against the right.

Are you implying that admiration for any German artist or writer makes one a Nazi?

It's sad that I have to explain this, but my political views are libertarian left (not Libertarian) and just about as far from Nazism as it's possible to be. How the hell did you manage to twist my criticism of the NYPD for behaving like fascist thugs in attacking OWS into support of the Nazis?

Jesus, some people.

OWS supporters are envy of Tea Party , Democrats OWS where unable to send their mixed messages of anti-capitalism, socialism, pro-union, wealth redistribution in a society where most people don't envy the wealth when is made honest , even with the support of President Obama Princess Pelosi and the whole party , this movement that Democrats call renascence of the new grassroots never was able to get track. After more than a moth showing their true colors the majority of Americans do not give their support. This is no good for Obama's political campaign and very soon they will be thrown under the bus even they spread their own agenda.

"behaving like fascist thugs in attacking OWS"...

"attacking"...hahaha...how about we start up an "occupy" gang and set up camp on your moms front lawn , because she is older than you so she must have been part of "the problem"...just a thought

"attacking"...hahaha...how about we start up an "occupy" gang and set up camp on your moms front lawn , because she is older than you so she must have been part of "the problem"...just a thought

My mom's been dead since 1973. I suppose you could occupy the cemetery where she's buried if you're into that sort of thing. Personally, it's a little creepy for my taste.

Of course the Judge ruled against the OWS.

There is precedent set by the Supreme Court on this.

The Supreme Court has ruled on the 1st Amendment rights of protesters and said that cities CAN limit and even SHUT DOWN protests that violate city ordinances and interfere with the rights of others.

The Supreme Court ruled that city ordinances against camping, noise, litter, and crowd-size, requiring a permit, etc can be enforced and are constitutional as long as the same ordinances are applied to all groups regardless of political leanings.

the cemetary , your dads place , your grandmas , your cousins , your kids , doesn't matter , just so long as we get to exercise or "rights"

Feel free to dismiss the "Occupy" movement if you wish. Feel free to dismiss what has happened to our economy as "just a bunch of lazy, irresponsible bums with a sense of entitlement". Feel free to blame government employees, teachers, fire fighters, and paramedics as being "greedy unionists sucking our society's teat". Celebrate the great successes of Wall Street under a "free-market", unrestrained capitalist system. Ignore the flow of unlimited corporate funds to the politicians who "decide" the direction of our Nation. Cheer on the brave Governors who empower themselves to appoint "emergency managers" to replace locally elected leaders, for they are wiser than we the people. Eliminate regulations that stymie market capitalism such as air and water quality, minimum wage, 40 hour work week, child labor. In short, we can't stop the corporate take-over of the United States of American, so it's time we learn to...embrace the horror!

"Eliminate regulations that stymie market capitalism such as air and water quality, eliminate minimum wage,eliminate 40 hour work week, eliminate child labor."

This is why OWS is a failure, everything that you speak of are inconsistencies.

Congrats to NYC for finally upholding the law and preventing these squatters from trampling on the rights of others.

You have a first amendment right to free speech and to petition the government for redress of grievances, but you do not have the right to illegally occupy another individuals private property or to actively engage in destruction of that property against their will as a part of exercising those rights. Your rights end where another individuals rights begin.

Mainstream American is not down with ugly protesters, they always vote against the Party in charge that allows it.

That's what happened in the 60's after seeing riots on TV, They kicked the Democrat out of office and voted in the Republican candidate for President.

Just ask Lyndon B. Johnson (D)...

These free-speechers sure collapse a lot of posts.

Good Ruling by the Court of NY.:

There has to be some Standards set here for a peaceful, and meaningful Protest.

It became a Park 'Ground" Hotel of filth, and illegal activities for all the people who have no where to live.

Now New York can get back to normal?

Living on the Streets again--A great deal of bums who stole the Protesters "Thunder" of getting off their message.

We all get the Message without the killings, and hate signs, everything from Campbell's Soup to the hatred of Minorities.!

Ol_doc. cool thanks for giveing me premission to do what i'm allowed to do anyway

Yea, how dare he clear out all those rapists, molesters, thieves, drug addicts, anarchists, etc. After all, their rights supercede everyone elses.

Really? Molesters? Here's some advice for you: clear your mind, think about what you're saying, and most of all, turn off Fox News! The only ones who should be "cleared out" are the anarchists, who are in no way representative of the OWS movement. And you'll have a hard time finding many rapists, thieves, and drug addicts amongst those at the protests...unless you believe the Fox News caricatures...

Turn off Fox?

Do you want news from only one side and be objectives, now I see what is your problem DG

What’s with the collapsing of comments, no reason given, just collapsed?

Is it a time issue, a space issue or just a “community” Decider not liking the comment?

There are rules here, but even if I disagree 100% with what the poster has said, if they are not calling names, or breaking rules exactly who gets to collapse their post.

Is there is a whiners button that if enough whiners don’t like the message, it gets collapsed, because if there is a button a CENSURE button we can all collapse anybody’s comment we do not agree with.

Really stupid way of doing business.

It has become so obvious what's happening here. In the beginning the politicians said under no circumstances are you allowed to close the park, Mr. Park owner. The Democrats rallied around these protestors, and claimed it a new movement similar to the T.P. movement. The Democrats needed this so badly they did not think it through. They wanted their own T.P. movement, and had thought they did. Nope. Fooled you. All it did was bring out the despondents. The Democratic party could no longer associate themselves with "These" people.

You do not hear a peep from the Democrats supporting this group of losely held individuals.

The Democrats would love nothing more than the OWS folks just move along.

The OWS protesters need CIA funding like the protesters in Syria.

I am re-posting my comment from last evening as it now seems to have been prophetically accurate as to today's revelations about the mayors' co-ordination and Federal Government involvement (homeland "security") and also proving the childishness of those that collapsed my comment.

maurice-311399 Comment collapsed by the community

It is obvious that there is now a co-ordinated establishment effort to seize the opportunity to capitalize on an unfortunate few incidents of the past several days. I doubt many (other than the shills posting here) will not recognize this sham. It is quite obvious that they are deliberately attempting to push someone to the breaking point to retroactively "justify" their gestapo tactics.

Given the budgetary limits of most municipalities all OWS needs to do to is continue to allow these mayors to deplete their police funding on these massive (and costly) police actions then organize for their ouster at the next election. Don't these idiots realize that Americans are just as dedicated and opposed to oppression as those in Tunisia,Libya,Egypt,Syria,Yemen,etc.

It is telling that the majority of anti-occupy "comments" are nothing more than grade school level taunts and crude caricature.

• 46

• !

#1.13 - Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:56 AM PST

That @!$%# Bloomberg may have created an even bigger movement than was there before. I hope so anyway.

It doesn't look like it's over yet:

http://www.ustream.tv/theother99

http://stopmebeforeivoteagain.org/

Kudos to Mayor Bloomberg

Reports (unconfirmed) of pepper spray, and of sound cannons and bulldozers being brought to Zuccotti. Anyone who applauds this action by the mayor and NYPD needs to take a solid look in the mirror and think about what kind of person they are.

Ok ....... I looked ........ I gagged at my appearance .......... and I like what type of person I am more than ever.

Deal with it.

Oskar - OWS makes the TEA Party look fantastic. If anything OWS is an embarrassment to legitimate protesters.

BTW - gotta love those hypocritical free speech Liberals. Free speech only for them. It will be a great day for our country when Liberals are no longer allowed to keep the truth from the masses.

JustConcerned-4468020Restored

So, will someone, after 2 months of this nonsense, PLEASE explain to me and the rest of normal America just exactly what these mobs want?

In four, two to three word statements, tell me exactly what the purpose of this "movement" is. Something simple like the TEA Party has.

1. Taxed enough already.

2. Constitutionally limited government.

3. Fiscal responsibility.

4. Free-market principles.

This is very simple and very descriptive of their movements goals.

Unless these OWS buffoons can do this, their argument is nonsense.

This is right off of their website and seems pretty clear:

OWS is fighting back against the corrosive power of major banks and multinational corporations over the democratic process,

and the role of Wall Street in creating an economic collapse that has caused the greatest recession in generations.

The movement aims to expose how the richest 1% of people are writing the rules of an unfair global economy that is foreclosing on our future.

After all the rain and then snow and ice it left my property in an unsafe and hazardous condition. Wish I cold have had an army of city employees come in an clean it all up. This pretty much demonstrates that when it comes to taxation, maybe there is a good reason to tax those who make a lot more, more in taxes, as they seem to get the most bang for their buck.

dman-353357

Wow. Pretty insidious. The media starts focusing on several allegedly negative facts (i.e., "a shooting near Oakland's protest (unrelated)", alleged drug use, alleged sickness, etc.)

Or how about focusing on the fact that they have appropriated public property for their personal, politically inspired use?

That would be wrong!

Zuccotti Park, formerly called Liberty Plaza Park, is a 33,000-square-foot (3,100 m²) publicly accessible park in Lower Manhattan, New York City. It is a Privately-Owned-Public-Space (POPS) controlled by Brookfield Properties.^[1]

^also

Ford Man 4 life

How ironic that CBS does a story about our Congress want how they benefit from "Insider trading" and being offered IPO'ing that are sure to be moneymakers for them but the same info would put the "average man on the street" in jail.

I have always been against the WSO group. To me it seems their anger is misdirected. It should be against the White House and Congress that serve us. They are the ones that are killing America no more than Corporate America that only plays by the rules. We the people are being screwed big time by our "leaders" that is making money "hand over fist" while we try to make a living.

Play by the rules??? What rules ever permitted selling products you knew were worthless at the same time representing the goods were good value. Fraud has never been playing by the rules. Now if you were to say ignoring fraud is the rule then maybe you would be right. but that is not the case for you and me if we did it. Hey not even for Madoff who is in prison. Why aren't a bunch of bank and wall street execs in there with with him?? That would be because the rules don't apply to them. And that my friend it what OWS is all about.

Turn off Fox?

Yep. All they do is spew nonsense. Fox wouldn't know accurate reporting if it lept up and kicked them in the teeth.

BTW - gotta love those hypocritical free speech Liberals. Free speech only for them.

When the Tea Party was protesting (with sidearms in plain sight) the "free speech Liberals" you are attempting to belittle didn't begrudge them their right to free speech, they only disagreed with them. But it seems anyone is allowed the right to assemble and protest...except the OWS group. Tea Party types can carry guns to their rallies without being impeded, while at OWS rallies it's only the ever-present cops who dole out the violence. Now who is the free speech only for???

Damned revisionist history...

Yea DG - they disagreed with the Tea Party and lied about what the Tea Party was doing and saying at every turn and still do it even now.

You're right, damned revisionist history.........

DG, what does that fact that some people at some Tea Party rallies had guns with them, have to do with anything. Were they breaking any law? Were they threatening anybody? Did they even draw a weapon?

But your right, the cops do "dole out the violence", but only after being provoked.

did the tea party breal the law? yes they at least in FL where open carry of a loaded weapon by the public can only be done in certian areas for the safety of the masses. yes the threaten local college reporters. And their weapons did not have to be drawn since some of the were rifles

How ironic that CBS does a story about our Congress want how they benefit from "Insider trading" and being offered IPO'ing that are sure to be moneymakers for them but the same info would put the "average man on the street" in jail.

I have always been against the WSO group. To me it seems their anger is misdirected. It should be against the White House and Congress that serve us. They are the ones that are killing America no more than Corporate America that only plays by the rules. We the people are being screwed big time by our "leaders" that is making money "hand over fist" while we try to make a living.

It is the members of Congress that benefit from everything that they do. Every thing that they do is designed to make money for them and to hell with the good of the country. Everything from illegal immigration to who gets what contract to do what is a money maker for our Congress. What a shame.

If any good came out of this OWS it might be that people should take a good look at our government and those that represent us. Congress is the group that is killing America IMO. You have to ask yourself why is it that people are willing to spend millions on a job that pays 200K a year. Seems like it is for the insider info they get that will make them filthy rich at our expense. Look at the Pelosi's and the John Kerry's of the world as they benefited greatly with the help of insider trading. Both Dems. and Repubs are guilty as hell for they way they govern us. The only interest Congress seems to have is their own.

@One-Eyed Undertaker- if OWS actually took any of those concerns seriously people would actually care.

But they haven't. Drawing attention to your cause without any clear reason makes people sleepy.

What does this action say to the world about our government? Our political and economic systems were exposed as failures. Now, our government violently shut down our freedom of speech and right to peacefully assemble, and attempted to excuse their actions by claiming unhealthly living conditions. Foreign governments and their citizens have yet another reason to distrust us.

Fordman, it's nice that you say that government should be the real target of the OWS and Congress is the pariah. Well you may be right, but it's when you start giving examples and they're all Democrats with just a little one line statement, "oh yeah Republicans too". You don't want government reformation, you just want to turn everything back over to Republicans. Well, I got news for you, if you and your pinheaded fascist friends succeed in turning the country back over to the GOP, you will be seeing more of this and you may find your smug a$$ down there with them.

rabble rousers

Aww, are those whipper snappers on your lawn?

Fordman, it's nice that you say that government should be the real target of the OWS and Congress is the pariah.

The Mall of D.C. is little more than the embassy for the 'entity' called Wall Street. They are one in the same.

One-Eyed Undertaker

Yes, One-Eyed Undertaker - lets get back to the business of selling Wall Street's toxic and illegal securities, lets get back to the Big Banks offering fraudulent mortgage loans to trusting citizens, and let's get back to hugely rewarding Corporate America's CEO's massive salaries and bonus packages, lets help these conglomerates stamp out unions - and we must sympathize with them for shipping U.S. jobs overseas.

Around the world, countries are probably laughing at Americans.

Wow. Pretty insidious. The media starts focusing on several allegedly negative facts (i.e., "a shooting near Oakland's protest (unrelated)", alleged drug use, alleged sickness, etc.)

Or how about focusing on the fact that they have appropriated public property for their personal, politically inspired use?

It is past time these camps were cleared out. Cheers to the New York City police.

"have appropriated public property for their personal, politically inspired use?"

Just a reminder, they're PART of the public who gets to use the public property.

Good luck making the brainwashed fox followers understand what is in their own best interest. America needs to understand social programs are needed to create jobs. The rest of the world will sell you their products while you watch TV or play on your computer.

I guess you can't read very well dennis-850400 . I mentioned Pelosi and Kerry because they were mentioned on the show "60 Minutes" as being very active in this practice of using insider trading info. I can only guess as to how far this goes but it is legal for them to do this. Congress driven by greed only is a very dangerous thing IMO.

With Congress doing business the way it does just might explain how we ended up with the M16 rifle in Vietnam. I wonder how may soldiers and Marines were lost because of a weapon that wasn't ready for the field. I'm wondering if a Congressman or a Senator profited from the government buying the M16's? As they say "just follow the money"!

I don't look at the people that take over private property and use it the way they did favorably. They did make people think about the source of their problems and to me the problem is our government and not WS. If WS doesn't "pay they don't get to play".

The property isn't owned by the city. It might be for public use, but the owners have every right to close it or prevent people from being there if they choose.

We have the park back! Judge rules eviction illegal!

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/updates-on-the-clearing-of-zuccotti-park/?src=twt&twt=cityroom#judge-says-protesters-can-return-to-park-for-now

HOO-RAH!

DrDrGrimmthenews. . . .Just a reminder. . .they were on private property not public property. . . .

Ford4life you need to get your facts straight it is Corporate America that is running the government and they are the ones who are profitting from what it going on. Look at the oil companies who get subsidies but yet they are making high profits and when government talks about taking away those subsidies, they threaten the country with higher costs for oil and making sure the supply is cut. Look at your companies who have sent their factories out of the US and they still receive tax benefits and are literally paying next or absoluetely nothing in taxes!!! You blame the democrats but the republicans are the worst, it was Baysh, Cheney, and other republicans who were having their pockets lined by the companies that got the contracts in Iraq. I hope the protests continue all the way to the Senate about corporate greed and politician greed. It is time this country tells our politicians that we need to get our act together right now there is no one out there I would vote for, every single republican member that is running is in the corporate companies pockets and I am not too happy with Obama either, so I hope to God we get someone out there that can kick some butt real soon.

dennis,

Well, I got news for you, if you and your pinheaded fascist friends succeed in turning the country back over to the GOP, you will be seeing more of this and you may find your smug a$$ down there with them

well so much for finding common ground! I guess everything will be OK as long as the inmates rule the asylum. Herein lies the problem!

The banks overthrew Greek and Italian governments replaced them with unelected central bankers, so are you surprised? America is beyond repair only the American-French Revolution can help.

"Alleged"? Really? The people who were raped and assaulted and overdosed were just liars. None of that happened. All the filth we saw was imagined, as well. Go peddle your lies elsewhere. I'm glad the "movement" is being seen for what it is - a bunch of loser malcontents who caused untold damage, forced businesses nearby to suffer and used valuable police resources during their little temper tantrums. I'm glad Bloomberg found the balls to do what should have been done weeks ago. The closest thing I know to a decent Occupy Movement is a bowel movement. Oh, yeah, I forgot, the protestors did that too, all over cop cars. Crap in, crap out. That's Occupy for you.

We will be at war with Iran soon spending more money on unwanted wars while calling teachers 'glorfied babysitters'. We have so much blood on our hands as it is. We have literally been at war almost my whole life. I'm not so proud to be an American, more like ashamed. If I could leave I would.

GOOD. These squatters have been asked, told, warned. Now it's about time to crack some heads and kick some butt.

Sitting in smelly tents, smoking pot, making out, storming building, destroying property does aboslutely NOTHING to promote any remedy for whatever the hell they want fixed.

Take a shower, draw up a CLEAR message, formulate a solution, then people might take you seriously.

The situation has been getting more and more out of hand. There is chaos within the group and those businesses around them have suffered. Many of those businesses did support those protesters to begin with, but when YOUR business deteriorates it is really hard to keep supporting.

When you elect a representative it isn't like this person is from a neutral party. So half the people might get represented while the other half do not. So the unhappy group begins to work hard to unseat the current rep. So anybody running for office will get booted unless their constitutes are mostly one party or the other. Also reps are forced from Day 1 to raise money to get re-elected never really being able to do their job for fear of losing it shortly. Think about your own job if it was in jeopardy every two years. So I think those getting elected begin to learn the ropes and how to survive and who to look for to keep them there. I don't blame them.

Where I do blame those elected is when they benefit from being in power and they use it. So if they protect an industry because it pays for them to keep their job. That is when representation is tainted. If they represent the industry or persons or group because they honestly think they should, that is fine. The other issue is that both parties kill off defectors. So if anybody in the republican party agreed now to raise taxes they would get booted from power. The same is true about dems that refuse to stop spending.

Additionally, when spending is cut due to our increased debt load, it hurts people we know or ourselves and then everybody is mad. So with respect to immigration we belly ache about illegals, and pretend to try to solve the huge problem, but when Ala finally forces the issue then everybody is mad because it exposes the problem in a big way and hurts many along the way. However not exposing it hurts people as well and long-term keeps wages depressed and many Americans out of work they should be taking.

The fault lies with us and the media that never covers these stories well except to sensationalize them to pin groups against each other.

Move

I understand the anger here. Those occupiers caused a lot of inconvenience for a lot of people and made the sanitary conditions at the park unbearable, however, I look at it as a desperation to for the little people to finally be heard. I know there will be the opportunist using this for personal gain.

It seems the only voices that are heard are the big business elitist. They have power to sculpt laws that will be very profitable for them but at the price of the everyday person. Look at the housing bubble and our current recession; both had roots in these Wall Street people and bankers crying to have the Glass Segal act repealed. A law put in place after the great depression to prevent it from happening again. It put restrictions on how banks conduct business. Guess what? No sooner did they win to have to repealed, it's happening again.

Clinton enacted the trade agreement which lifted tarriffs from all imports. This allowed other countries to undercut our prices through the use of cheap labor. This is what's sending millions of our jobs overseas to China and India....but, the corporations are raking in billions more per year.

You see this and sometimes wonder if law makers are listening to anyone but the elitist. I have to give these people credit for making the attempt to finally have their voices heard. I don't think they'll get what they want, after all, I don't think the people they need to listen, are paying any attention.

U need a lot of money to move. No other country wants more people, unless they are rich. Trust me I've looked into it. I'm not a killer, murderer or imperialists. I'm also not a sheep who sees the evening news and accepts that that's the only truth

Finally!

Don't you have to have legal occupancy in order to be "illegally evicted???" Or is that too beaurocratic, right wing, and too organized for this group?

"have appropriated public property for their personal, politically inspired use?"

Just a reminder, they're PART of the public who gets to use the public property.

Just a reminder, they are only a PART of the public, which does not give them right to exclusive use of public property, let alone private property.

While I probably agree with at least half of what these protesters are angry about, I'm still offended by their methods, and their ridiculous sence of entitlement.

drdarby17 - Yep, we definitely should have firebombed our fellow Americans...Kill those swine just like we did at Kent State! Aren't you glad the police only crush THEIR 1st Amendment Rights?

Aren't you glad the police only crush THEIR 1st Amendment Rights?

Please, Ol_Doc, show me where the 1st amendment empowers anybody to seize control of private property, or to impeded the orderly lawful business of their fellow citizens.

They have every right to express their opinions. They do not have an inherent right to set up a shanty town in a privately owned park, or, for that matter, a public one.

I will to some degree agree that the OWS movement wasn't as well thought out as it should have been and wasn't organized in creating viable solutions anticipating the potential problems of occupying a public but privately owned property and the failure to prepare for crime, drug use, etc. They also didn't seek the help of local police forces in advance to act as liasons for peacefully maintaining order which should have been clearly essential to carry on without many of the confrontations that ensued. I am sure that any new Occupy movement and continuation of the idea will not make the same mistakes. Also, the clamping down on the movement will not stop it, it will make it stronger, larger and will force it to become more organized and effective ! I will predict that the next OCCUPY phase will further confound the establishment as to how to respond.

WOW ! I am absolutely amazed at the comments decrying the movement as simply whining to get something they don't deserve, being lazy, uneducated, hippies, socialists, anarchists, unwilling to earn their way through life, etc.. You really don't get it do you ? Your solution is to excercise your right to vote for a candidate that will voice your concerns in a democratic way ? Yeah right ! All of you who feel that way need to get a grip on reality. First of all, our democratic process has been corrupted by elite interests and in your stubborn failure to admit this and join in protesting this very UNDEMOCRATIC problem, you become part of the problem. Vote ? Voting your interests will accomplish nothing ! If you think that given the choices we are given in candidates, if elected, that will then act in our best interests once elected then you are truly delusional. Even if we vote them out if they don't legislate in our interests, the next candidate will just be more of the same ! BOTH PARTIES have proven their inability and unwillingness to effectively address what's wrong with this country. They are incapable and incompetent to control government because it is being controlled by powerful MONEY INTERESTS. How can you not see this ?

When you snidely make the comment and ask, what has the 1% actually taken from you, have you really thoroughly thought out that question or are you just lazily parroting partisan talking points ? Do you not find it a little obvious that the amounts of tax INCREASES that most taxpayers are asked to pony up usually correspond precisely to tax CUTS and subsidies being extended to corporations ? It's all about the 99% taking up the slack for an inefficient government and a corrupt financial system. The 1% has taken from all of us, including you ! Despite an economic meltdown purposely orchestrated or stupidly executed by Wall Street taking enormous unsound risks with American's money, the people's financial status suffered, but Wall Street was bailed out and suffered no losses and in fact profited greatly ! WTF ! And there are those of you who think this is OK and will defend the status quo ? Any of you hoping that justice will be served by sending some of the more guilty in the Banking Industry to prison, don't hold your breath. The Banking Industry already covered their asses by essentially bribing our politicians to legislate regulative laws that granted them immunity from prosecution. They can't be legally held accountable ! How convenient !

The OWS movement is not just about people protesting for something they aren't willing to work for or taking from the rich and it's not just exclusively an American problem. This is a worldwide problem and any of you that fail to see this or admit that this "New World Order" vision as destructive are lending to the creation of your own demise. This New World Order is indeed about establishing a worldwide monopoly on food, energy, rare metals, water, ocean fisheries, real estate, agriculture, transportation, genetic patents, medicine, technology, communication, the privatization of public works, finance and every other thing necessary for human progress, security and survival. It is the product and goals of unbridled GREED FOR MONEY AND POWER to control the worlds resources and by the very definition is EVIL !!! By defending the status quo you are in fact helping to promote this evil. To those of you who just can't seem to grasp and fully understand how hyper-critical and urgent of an issue this is, THIS IS PRECISELY WHAT THE OCCUPY WORLDWIDE MOVEMENT IS BASED ON !!! It is about confronting the very real threat of evil unleashed on the world through global corporatism to seize power through a worldwide coup ! If they control the money and governments, what else would you call it ? If we fail to successfully act and force a re-thinking of the world we want to live in, I shudder to think what future generations will face.

Criticize me for being long winded but I felt the need to adequately explain my position, insult me for being over dramatic, attack me for my real or perceived political views, accuse me of being negative, laugh and say I'm being a conspiracy theorist, but time will tell if I'm right or wrong. Time always has the last word !

larry - The OWS movement may have many valid points. But most people have no idea what those points may be. They are only aware of their image and methods. If you think that occupying Wall Street, or some park or parks in its vicinity is going to effect change, you're mistaken.

Many people watching the protests do not see the protesters as connected to them in any way. They see people who are apparently without jobs, obstructing other people's use of the park and environs, and mouthing a number of loud slogans.

In short, the OWS-protesters are not convincing many people of anything. Their tactics are poor.

Maybe, if the economy continues to deteriorate, and the numbers of unemployed people, former members of the middle class, grow, more people will pay attention. Right now, most people flip them into the same mental box as the stereotypical, robed street prophet proclaiming "The end is nigh!".

BTW: Try breaking your text up into more paragraphs.

To me it seems their anger is misdirected. It should be against the White House and Congress that serve us. They are the ones that are killing America no more than Corporate America that only plays by the rules.

The big difference is that we can vote the members of Congress out...and that's going to happen more than usual in 2012. But how are we supposed to get rid of the fat cat bankers, CEOs, and other aspects of Corporate America...which bend the rules and/or buy the Supreme Court? We can't vote them out...and as long as the Supreme Court believes "corporations are people too" (Mitt Romney's exact words), Karl Rove and his Super-Pacs give massive "donations" to candidates who will support big business, and the Koch brothers buy politicians who will try their damnest to turn the middle class into serfs (*cough Scott Walker cough*) then Corporate America is the problem! I'll bet you dollars to donuts that big business will buy Congress again, even if there is 100% turnover in the House and 33% in the Senate in 2012...

DG_W You have made some points that anyone should be able to comprehend, but instead you get comments like the OWS concerns should be directed at the White House and Congress and while I fully agree that they deserve to be targeted by this movement for being part of the problem, directing protests at the white house and congress not only falls on deaf ears but is equivalent to police targeting only small time street corner drug dealers when the bigger problem is the suppliers and cartels. The head of the snake needs to be severed and in this case it is Wall Street and the powerful elite in this country. Why can't some people here on the vine understand that this system and these 1% people are promoting and monopolizing an unsustainable doctrine of raping the earth's resources, manipulating world governments and pillaging the worlds money solely for GREED ? It is EVIL ! Does everybody negatively commenting on OWS really believe the OWS movement is only about commies, socialists, lazy, dirty, uneducated, selfish people (their words) wanting to take other people's money ? My god, how much more of small, petty and limited comprehension of the world predicament and reality can one actually cling to ? In denying that something is indeed terribly wrong with the present US and world system is stupifying to say the least. Corruption of our government by the elite special interests needs to be urgently addressed by citizens who are left with the only means of public protest available (since our government refuses to listen to the people) and those of you who do deny this are part of the problem at your own peril.

DG.W is right ! How exactly do we vote out the elite money interests ? Maybe some of you who choose to refute that this blatant problem is real will care to enlighten the rest of us on how the problem of corporate inerference and corruption of our government doesn't actually exist ! And please spare us from the standard line of "use your right to vote them out" because it's obvious that voting is ineffective and can't or won't accomplish what needs to be done ! Our so-called Democratic process is way too corrupted and slow to accomplish what needs to be done immediately. OWS deserves credit and respect for at least forcing issues into a public debate and discourse.

Proof once again liberals are closet fascists. Since when to your rights usurp mine? That park is private property and the owner has every right to clear you out. The people who work and live around there have a right to be protected from all the malcontents that have taken over. Businesses around there have every right to do business without interference.

But of course nobody's rights are important except yours. Sorry pal, you don't get to shred the constitution, and first amendment rights, do no usurp any of the others.

Since Rob Mello can't read.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

I don't see anywhere in there that doesn't allow the states, towns, cities or counties to make you get a permit. Maybe you need a lesson in reading or actually read it all and don't just pick and choose a part.

The owners of Zucotti have said they want them there.

Where did the owners of the park say they "want" them there? News outlets have reported that the owners had not asked them to leave. Only a moron would assume equivalency. Read for yourself. Try googling "zuccotti owners support OWS" and you will see that Brookfield properties has made complaints but always caveats any comments with "we support free speech" blather. GET A CLUE! They don't want them there but both they and the protestors know that Brookfield is more worried about the hyperbolic press that will follow if they ask the NYPD to clear the park (kinda like what's happening now, meathead!)

The Constitution also says there can be no law to forbid the free exercise of free speech assembly etc.

...Insofar as it does not impugn on the rights of others. Lots of idiots like to go around quoting the Constitution while also wanting it to be a living document. You're simply the devil quoting scripture here. But you are right, there is no law forbidding free speech here...none has been passed. But there are laws governing public health, squatting, vagrancy and permitting on property that ALL taxpayers fund, not just the ones who want to whine right now, so your citation of the Supremacy clause does not apply here. The supremacy clause is intended to prevent state subversion of limited powers of government that are explicitly laid out in the constitution. It addresses the "negative rights" of government. It in no way binds local government from exercising municipal authority to preserve the general (public) welfare.

These are the things you learn in real classrooms and by being a productive citizen Rob. You won't learn it wherever you've been hanging out. Yes, you need a civics lesson, regardless of whether you think I'm a "dip@!$%#".

Go find a child to impress. Nothing but Man here.

+1 to nonkjo

Corporate America has just declared war on the hard-working citizens of the United States of America.

The hard working citizens of the United States of America are not the ones at the OWS sites. They have a job, and more then likely working for the same "evil" corporations that the OWS people are protesting against.

They have a job, and more then likely working for the same "evil" corporations that the OWS people are protesting against.

Until their jobs are sent overseas by the demands of Wall St. Amirite?

JustaGrunt, I have a job but my wife got laid off 2 months before she qualified for retirement benefits. Hmm? Company was downsizing so it was not a discrimination decision, but a business decision, so the company got to keep all the money it had been setting aside for her retirement. Basically, the company stole the money that she had worked all those years for. Interestingly, the company made money by taking her money as well as many others. This made the stock go up and the CEO made millions off of investor funds. Then the stock tanked and he got fired and got paid another 20 million on the way out.

Yeah, do not in anyway defend the way Wall Street AND our government do business.

Police orders in NYC don't come from "Corporate America", they come from NYC Mayor Bloomberg, a liberal and lifelong Democrat.

Liberals are the ones cutting loose the hounds on other liberals. The infighting is actually kind of amusing, as it should mean the Republicans have a rather easy go at the 2012 elections while Democrats scream "FASCISTS!" at other Democrats.

Michael Bloomberg ran for mayor of New York City as a Republican in 2001 and was elected; he won reelection in 2005 as a Republican; he 'left' the party in 2007 but ran for a third term as an 'independent' on the Republican ballot line and unfortunately won again. So much for Mike's fictional tenure as a 'lifelong Democrat.' (He was a Democrat at one time, but then so was Strom Thurmond.)

The only thing Mike's been life long--adult life, anyway--is an investment banker and stooge for investment bankers.

FYI, I'm neither a Democrat nor a liberal, so just save it.

Michael Bloomberg is anything but a Republican.

CEuler

reclaim your democracy from the 1%!

One way to possibly reclaim democracy from the 1% is if in any way you can...do not give them a dime.

Lifeinaraindrop

Until their jobs are sent overseas by the demands of Wall St. Amirite?

Hey Socialist ...are you still looking for more of someones hard work for nothing? Or do you mean until they loose their jobs because they are not showing up for work so they can OWS.

What are you doing to keep your job her in the USA? Asking for a raise, Forcing me to pay for your inability to live within your means? Not wanting to pick crops in Alabama because it does not pay enough to feed our nation? I get it... lets get migrant slaves to pick the food for you to eat so you can stay in a comfortable home you can't afford so they can live in tents to feed you. so you can eat the food by using the food stamps you got from those of us who LIVE WITHIN OUR MEANS, WORK HARD at CORPORATIONS or SMALL BUSINESSES, and PAY TAXES!

Neither extreme works.

The pure profit motivation got us here... where we are now... with our manufacturing going overseas to make lower quality wares for super cheap. Profit isn't everything, as Steve Jobs said.

Our throw-away culture got us here... where we are now... with our demand for cheap crap because we're fine with throwing something away and just buying another one. Buy American.

We need to change this culture, and this idea that a 'pure profit' motivation is somehow the right sort of motivation. It's not. A business that runs on ideals of quality and a sense of patriotic pride does not run the same as one with ideals of pure profit. We, as consumers, must provide the market for those seeking to make quality products - right here - and forego the cheap profit-focused junk from China. It's up to us to support those with the right priorities... quality and country first.

Profit is great too, but it should not be out of greed and a desire for larger bonuses - firing employees, moving to China, and then giving yourself multi-million dollar raises with the money you 'saved'.... What's good about that? What justification is there to complain about regulations making it too expensive to do business and firing your employees because you 'can't afford' to pay them, then turning around and giving yourself and other top-dogs enormous raises? It seems a bit... hypocritical.

I'm all for making it business friendly in the United States - within reason. We don't want to mirror China in order to compete with China... do we? It's a rather simplistic and reactionary response. There are other, better, ways that we can think up in order to promote business in the US without having to emulate a 3rd World Country..... don't you think?

Tighten up those loose jobs abattaglia. Migrant workers are not slaves. They are skilled workers.

abattaglia, there HAS to be a middle ground. I believe that if you are self employed, you deserve to keep the profits your company makes. If you pay your employees crap, then they have the right to quit.

BUT if you need investor money, the CEO and his buddies on the Board should not make (let's say) 35% more than the lowest paid employee. If the company earns billions, then the stockholders / investors get a higher return on their money. The CEO still make a few million dollars, BUT NOT TENS OF MILLIONS of Dollars.

The way it is now is that the CEOs bankrupt the companies, take huge amounts of money and then need Taxpayer money to bail out the companies they destroy. This is pure MAFIA THEFT!!!

Call me a socialist all you want, but Pure Capitalism IS KILLING THIS COUNTRY.

GOOD. These squatters have been asked, told, warned. Now it's about time to crack some heads and kick some butt.

Sitting in smelly tents, smoking pot, making out, storming building, destroying property does aboslutely NOTHING to promote any remedy for whatever the hell they want fixed.

Take a shower, draw up a CLEAR message, formulate a solution, then people might take you seriously!

...we have a constitutional right to freedom of assembly to petition the govt for redress of grievances...

In that case, go and protest to Obama and leave the private sector alone.

Danaelle

And with that post you just ruined a few corporate bloggers day.

Dumb a$$. Call mommy and daddy for some money for food. Pan-handle from hard-working adults who do what it takes to provide for themselves and their families. And don't forget to whine constantly about life being difficult and the world constantly changing. But don't add anything to the stream of life -- just whine and complain and take, take, take. You got the park back. Whee. If you'd grow up, you could do so much more. You could plant trees on your own land and make your own park that no one could ever take away from you but that would require you to put-up, and shut-up. It's so much more rewarding to sit and cry and wait for mommy to bring your little blanky and bottle. OK, go cry.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." ~ Abraham Lincolin

abattaglia

are you still looking for more of someones hard work for nothing? Or do you mean until they loose their jobs because they are not showing up for work so they can OWS.

Hey douche bag, is it really so oblivious to you that corporations can hold unfavorable positions or have an unfavorable philosophies that may hurt you and/or your family? It really isn't beyond possibility. So while it may be easy for you to assume I am a socialist (I'm a capitalist, I do own a small business), just as means of claiming me to be the "enemy" and easy for you to digest - we live in an oligarchy, which is not American capitalism.

What are you doing to keep your job her in the USA? Asking for a raise, Forcing me to pay for your inability to live within your means?

Asking for a raise is so utterly intolerable? Or working hard and expecting a small portion of a company's new profits by one's own ability? That's more of the American dream than I know of and many want to achieve. Your position of working for America is working for a fascist government, where you're expected to do your job and shut up.

Not wanting to pick crops in Alabama because it does not pay enough to feed our nation? I get it... lets get migrant slaves to pick the food for you to eat so you can stay in a comfortable home you can't afford so they can live in tents to feed you. so you can eat the food by using the food stamps you got from those of us who LIVE WITHIN OUR MEANS, WORK HARD at CORPORATIONS or SMALL BUSINESSES, and PAY TAXES!

Associating any of this with me is by your own anger issues and hatred. I stated that corporations move American jobs overseas. How did you come to me using foodstamps? My mother was on them for about a year and it got us through a rough time, they are a social safety net and it got us through without starving or suffering (welcome to the modern world, where we have certain standards of what it is to be American). I haven't...

But, by the way, you've been lied to entirely of what liberals actually are, and I'm much more of a moderate than you realize. You've been so utterly absorbed into the conservative media network that you see nothing else in it, and you've turned your back on your fellow Americans in your hatred when you should be engaging in a conversation.

Nonkjo: Your rights end where another person's rights begin. You don't get to screw over others just because you happen to have a lot of people with you right now. Take a civics lesson!

Unless of course, "you" are a big bank. Then you have the right to financially rape on anyone that falls into your trap.

You people are desperate to protest something whether it is true or not. In my career I've had to change jobs 5 times, only once voluntarily and I still make six figures. If you spent more time focused on your career, or actually studied something that was marketable instead of BS fluff curriculum, then maybe you would be able to land a job. Don't blame Corporations for your lack of intelligence. The message you guys are trying to put out is garbled by the silver spoons in your mouth.

Not sure where people get the notion that the police had the right to do this. This is private property and the owners had no issue with the protesters being there. That fact has been reported in the news time and time again.

The rest of you that sit there and talk about "real adults work and provide for their family" - what in the world does that have to do with anything. I work and provide but I also know when things need to change you have to make sacrifices. It's called thinking ahead, making sure your family will be safe, secured financially, and retain their liberties.

So while you do the grind day in and day out you think the rest of the world doesn't change behind your back? Or you'd just rather ignore that part? Living in a suburb doesn't protect you from government intrusion or an enemy that's finally pissed off enough over our policy of policing the world. It doesn't protect you from economical collapse. A real man stands up for what he believes in no matter the consequence or sacrifice. I learned that in the military. So many of you are so secure in the belief that the government will always do what's right for the people and does not wrong. Or is it your suburban ignorance showing because you hate when others start a scene when they feel something is wrong.

If I set up a campsite in the park and stayed more than 2 days I would be evicted. What's the difference?

Didn't any of you watch the news last night? The residents and business owners surrounding Zuccotti Park protested at City Hall last night - they want the protestors out of there. For those who say they're bringing in tourists and business, uh, no, they're not. The business owners interviewed complained no one wants to come to their business, they're losing money they need to feed their families, and they've had it with protestors destroying their bathrooms and stealing from them. Most have locked their public bathrooms and now have to have someone escort their clients to them so they can monitor them - one man stated he had no choice after they'd trashed his bathroom twice. Why should he incur repair bills for a bunch of ignorant, obnoxious pigs? Others stated no one will come to their business because of the stench. Three port-a-potties were finally set up - already destroyed, so it's back to using side streets and bushes as toilets. Who's paying for the repair of that equipment?

Don't give me any crap about their message and how they're fighting for me, either. They're fighting more amongst themselves than anything else! Aggie makes a good point - clean up, draw up a real message and a real solution and then maybe we'll take you seriously. Right now all anyone is hearing is a lot of whining, crying and BS. Fighting the banks? Okay - what's your solution to the problem? Considering how many are listed as 1. Having taken a leave of absence from their job to protest 2. Having quit their job flat out to protest and 3. Live in a house listed at 300G or more, it seems they've dealt with banks just fine up until now, when suddenly half the world decided "Hey, why should I pay my bills? Just give me a bail out!"

Oh, yes, Bloomberg said they can return to the park - but another encampment will not be allowed. In other words - go the hell home!!

Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg said protesters could return to the site, but that another encampment would not be allowed

THAT'S what's in the NY Times.

The park was declared to be open and about a dozen of the protesters who had stayed in the area through the night and the early morning were ushered past metal barricades and into the newly pristine expanse.

Two people who entered the park by vaulting over a low wall were directed by police officers back over the wall, but they were permitted to enter from the sidewalk.

However, after people had been in the park for about 10 mins, security guards working for Brookfield Properties announced that everyone had to leave. Some inside the park said that the guards pointed to an electrical wire lying on the ground and announced that there was a "maintenance issue."

Sam Wilson, 32, from Bedford Stuyvesant, said she had been welcomed into the park at first and then was told to leave by a man wearing a suit, who she said told her that there was a "suspicious package" inside the park. As those inside the park, including several news photographers, exited onto sidewalk, officers told them to start moving, warning that they were blocking pedestrians.

At that, some of the protesters began marching near the park, chanting "We are the 99%."

Sorry to have posted what amounts to a book, but the people who live and work around Zuccotti Park have been patient long enough. They didn't do anything wrong and shouldn't have their quality of life affected this way any longer.

Why are the Democrats not out there defending these people? They are "their" people aren't they? Reason is the polls are showing the working class are tired of these people and their tactics. Go Home!

I see from the comments above so many of you just don't get it. You act like the protesters are all people who did not live within their means, took bad loans for homes that they could not afford, and just want to live off the backs of the real "hard working Americans." Many of you believe we are just getting what we deserve.

It is time to open your eyes to the truth. I had a six figure income and a fixed mortgage that I could easily afford to pay until the banks crashed the economy and cost me my income.

I lost the home I lived in for 20 years and $75,000 in equity because I could not sell it in an underwater real estate market competing with all the foreclosures and short sells the banks dumped on the market.

I lost everything as a result of corporate greed, and watched as our government bailed out the banks and left their victims to fend for themselves.

The anger that millions of Americans feel is not going to go away until those responsible are punished. Our government failed us because our political system is so corrupt. How can our government represent the majority of Americans when they have to cater to the rich for campaign money?

The answer to this issue is to clean house in government and institute real campaign reform. If we don’t come together and do what must be done, this country is going to descend into anarchy.

It was about time, Police is ending with those camps for their own safety, and health protection. If those people don't have home where to stay they should go to their municipalities and look for homeless shelter. Occupy parks and public spaces is against law, the government can't favor a group and not others. if the government alowed this group to stay any other group including religious groups can exercise their free of speech. While liberals have the boots on the ground, with liquidations against religious symbols in public places, but they demand to the government to make exceptions. OWS is not a peacefull assembly and there is not petition to the government.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

I applaud it.

I'd have been happier yet if the police had acted 6 weeks ago.

Protest and demonstrations are one thing. Preempting the use of public or private property to underscore your political points is a whole different ball game.

thank god they've been evicted.

"lifeinaraindrop"

Asking for a raise is so utterly intolerable? Or working hard and expecting a small portion of a company's new profits by one's own ability?

If asking for a raise is who you want to work for your dreams are small! If doing the best you can with what you have been given and earned and NOT having to ask for one is who you CHOOSE to work for is ever more progressive and healthier. If you are true to your word and you do own a small business I'm sure your caring for your employees!!!

LIFE IS NOT FAIR!!!LIVE WITH IT!!!

I am very wise to your tactic of painting your anger on others who disagree with you, including name calling...grow up!

You have alot of steps to take...good luck!

Mark-292995

Why are the Democrats not out there defending these people? They are "their" people aren't they? Reason is the polls are showing the working class are tired of these people and their tactics. Go Home!

The 1% IS NOT the working class!

Ol_Doc, polls are consistently showing roughly 60% of the public do not support OWS anti-capitalism aims, and that a solid majority of those 60% are middle class and working class people tired of the unemployment stemming from policies that harm the businesses they rely on to hire them. Opposition to OWS is not solely coming from the 1% at the top. It's coming from people who are very solidly in the 99% OWS claims to speak for who do not consent to be represented by OWS.

Coming soon. The next phase. Won't be near as pretty as this one.

These 1% defenders keep getting frustrated by their own efforts, failing to comprehend why the flames keep getting higher and burning hotter no matter how much gasoline they spray at the protesters in an attempt to put this Occupy movement down. Just another Republican "oops" moment in the looooong list they're compiling.

This is disgraceful behavior by the governing elite in this country who have obviously coordinated a nation wide assault against OWS's. What the press likes to call a crackdown is nothing more than a shameless attempt to manipulate the minds of Americans and once again diminish the power of our constitutional rights. This so called crackdown just shows the seamy side of politics colluding with the justice system so they can create another loophole to further their criminal agenda and not the well being of its citizens.

Where is Obama now? Oh it was fine to risk his popularity when he supported protesters in the ME but in his own country his own countrymen he shows where his true loyalty lies.

All of these negative attacks against OWS are so sad and infuriating in the fact that they only exemplify an extraordinary ignorance of past and present US and World History. Have those of you that make such comments even have a sliver of a clue of what is transpiring not only here in the US but worldwide ? This situation in the US is only a component of a wholesale monopolization of the world through a globalist agenda of consolidation of power to influence governments and the world economy. For God's sake wake the F up and look around ! Who suffered the most from the recent man made economic meltdown Wall Street or Main Street ? Wall Street is reporting record profits while everyone else's wealth has nosedived ! Is this what you are defending ?

While those of you negatively commenting on OWS and may be financially comfortable within your own lives, many of your fellow citizens are suffering. While you are happy to follow your political parties directives and talking points, are you so unaware that there is overwhelming evidence that does indeed prove beyond question that your so called Democratic Republic has become an illusion because BOTH POLITICAL PARTIES HAVE BEEN CORRUPTED BY MONEY ! Do you understand the implications of this fact ?

See convicted lobbyist Jack Abramoff confess in an interview exactly how he and other corporate lobbyists do in fact buy off your politicians: http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7387331n

Read an article that points out how the economy is even more vulnerable to collapse thanks to Wall Street and the Banking Industry that will most likely cause a far larger crisis than what we are presently going through. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-next-worse-financial-crisis-2011-07-06

Read and view the released PDF files from the US Supreme court case McConnell v. FEC that reveals documents from both the Democratic and Republican parties soliciting money and in some cases promising favorable legislation, access to government leaders, invitations to lavish fundraising events, photo ops with government officials, meetings to discuss pending regulations, or in other words exchanging favors for cash donations from corporate america. http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/cfmemos.html

Read how Wall Street is still gaming the system by controlling and manipulating commodities by buying and storing oil in offshore tankers, storing food supplies in land based storage facilities, hoarding gold, silver, and other precious metals while manipulating the the prices for these goods to rise to outrageous levels that will mean profit for them, but increased prices for us not only for gas, but food and most everything else ! http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article18974.html

A very in depth article "How Corporations Influence the Government" http://www.polisci.ccsu.edu/trieb/InfluGov.html

The above links are only a very small sample of articles I've collected that detail how our government is indeed corrupt and is unwilling and incapable of doing their job for the good of the nation. If I were to post all of what I have this whole thread would be filled with links. The truth is utterly overwhelming with documented evidence and educated opinion to prove it !

I know that many of you that do comment negatively may be too busy in your own life to stay on top of these issues and many of you are good people that don't want to be further burdened by negativity in general, you know "stay positive". But many of you so misunderstand what's really going on and are unnecessarily mean spirited and uncompromising in your vicious verbal assaults on well meaning people in the OWS movement that just want a better life, not only for themselves but for everyone. Is that so wrong ? So for those of you who so predictably rant and rave, and criticize OWS and it's message, please read the above articles. If you insist on being closed minded, or lack the will or patience to access the links and give them a thorough reading, then you are self admitting to be too lazy to learn what truth is, and with all due respect, please do yourself and the rest of us a favor and refrain from commenting on issues you know nothing about !

Well said.

Join the Tea Party, they share most of the same grievences but work within the system, at the primary stage, to foster change.

The problem with the Tea Party is they parrot solutions proposed by the problem that would continue to aggravate the problem.

yeah, we can all see how wonderful the tea party elected politicians have done for us, they are the worst of the worst. I know tea partiers share some of the same grievances, but you can't make a broken system work, and besides you don't have enough money to be competition to any of the power brokers that have bought our government

Actually they've done agreat job Geraldine by not letting this amatuer President form spending us into oblivion, Not that he alreayd hasn't...

By the way tea party people abide by the law they have nothing in common with OWS Fleabaggers.

So the solution to these supposed egregious grievances is to 'occupy' city parks, wallow in your own fetid filth & excrement, disrupt businesses, block traffic, and provoke negative police responses...among other things... Consider me the poorest member of the '1%', OWS doesn't represent me!

3 Gold Bars...what these people have done is DRAW ATTENTION to the DISSATISFACTION very many of us feel with the PURE Capitalist system. This system would enslave us like they did at the turn of the last century.

If you get a chance, look into the Ludlow Colorado mmassacre. Rockefeller had enough power to get the Colorado National Guard to use machine guns on a campsite used by coal miners on strike. Do you want to go back to those days?

Sure Rockefeller is looked upon as a great guy because he gave so many millions to the arts, but to me he is a murderer. He should have paid a decent wage and had a little bit less money.

"Actually they've done agreat job Geraldine by not letting this amatuer President form spending us into oblivion"

Right. And because they wouldn't compromise on the debt ceiling until the last minute, the US's credit rating was downgraded. That was a GREAT job. Or not.

I agree with you 3 gold bars. I am probably the Poorest 1%er there is. The OWS doesn't Represent me. They are a whiny group complaining about choices THEY made. They bought a house that is now worth less than what they paid for. Housing prices go up and down. Deal with it. They took out a student loan and now don't want to pay for it. TOO DAMNED BAD. You signed the loans. You are responsible for them. GROW UP!!!!!

We have the park back! Judge rules eviction illegal!

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/updates-on-the-clearing-of-zuccotti-park/?src=twt&twt=cityroom#judge-says-protesters-can-return-to-park-for-now

HOO-RAH!

Yes! That's it in a nutshell! If their property had increased in value and they were enriched (like the guy who sold it to them!) we wouldn't be hearing a thing from these fools, would we? They seem to have all kinds of care and concern for the down-trodden but will they do what it takes to get ahead? NO! Will they carry their weight, pay their own way? NO! Will they do good work, at the same boring job, year after year? NO! And so on, ad nauseum.

I'll bet half of them don't even know the real issues .

Truly, if these small groups are happy living out of tents, resent the protections of society and are willing to support each other in a communal way then why not just surrender a bit of unincorporated, undeveloped Federal land and offer it as a reservation to these miscreants.

The have certainly shunned all reasonable protections so be done with them.

Crawdad-

You can bet it's more than half of this collection of losers, drug addicts, cry babies, and nipple suckers that don't have a clue about real life much less what the real issues are.

The residents and business owners around Zuccotti Park went to City Hall last night to protest the protestors. They're the ones who pay the rent/mortgage/taxes on the property around that park and they're the ones being inconvenienced. For those who claim the protest is bringing in tourism and they're making money, according to them, no, they're not. They complained they had to actually lock their public bathrooms to keep them from being trashed - one man reported his had been destroyed twice and he couldn't afford to keep repairing it since his paying customers weren't coming in anymore. They've complained about the noise, the stench and increased crime in the area, i.e. shoplifting. They want their lives back, and since they're the ones actually paying, they should get what they want.

WTG Danaelle!

I mostly agree Mark. The one thing you are missing, however, is that this protest wasn't an "angry mob" until the police showed up and began abusing the protesters.

Its about time! There is a difference in right to assemble and Squatting! I am all for people assembling against a cause, but when you squat you break the law. THese people were squatting hiding behind the idea of assembling. As mayor Bloomburg they must now assemble in the market place of ideas (paraphrase).

We have the park back! Judge rules eviction illegal!

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/updates-on-the-clearing-of-zuccotti-park/?src=twt&twt=cityroom#judge-says-protesters-can-return-to-park-for-now

HOO-RAH!

I'm certain to get blasted for this, but can someone tell me exactly what the OWS folks want? Do they want the 1%er's to hand them checks or give them jobs or what? Was the main plan to simply be heard, or were proposed solutions in place?

I had previously agreed with the movement in a vague sort of way, but the message has become lost in all the nonsense. A well-spoken voice, even en-mass, can go a long way. But enter the loss of control and what's left? A stench-filled, crime-inducing nightmare with questionable credibility and a loss of focus.

So, the owners of the property want the protesters evicted, the police do so, and a judge rules that the "eviction" was illegal.

Just about time for Americans to show the judicial system WE rule this country! If I own property and these squatters took it over, I hate to think what consequence it would bring as a result of their actions! But let me be clear, no one will take over my property without a real fight!

As I understand this "park" is actually private property. It is not public property, thus not under the same 'rules'. If the owner wants them out, then out they should go - no questions asked. Who does this judge think she is?

Freedom,

Between three wars, oodles of tax cuts, and two bailouts our debt is massive, our deficit is record-setting, and our greatness in the world is in question. And you're complaining about some smelly college students trashing bathrooms and making noise? Please remove yourself from your narrow ideology and get the big picture. Both smelly parties trashed this country and we didn't make a peep. We need movements because things ain't right. We need movements that aren't motivated by selfish ideology and a desire for power or money. That disqualifies OWS and the TP which have clear ideological goals to anybody with common sense.

The way to send a message is to vote third party in 2012. If everybody votes third party, we can dispense with those smelly parties that got us into the mess we're in and see some actual real reform. Remember, those same parties have an interest in keeping you ideologically focused, it keeps you voting for one of them and perpetuates the cycle.

formerstew,

The best goal I've been able to tease out is to start a national conversation. In that respect, OWS succeeded. We've discussed income inequality.

I imagine they have been too busy Tweeting and updating their Face Book pages to realize Oregon, California and Texas (to name a few) are in bidding wars to hire people with Engineering and Science type degrees. Of course, Liberal Arts graduates need not apply! We have more than our share of Liberals in the White House and Congress.

These jobs will eventually be filled by LEGAL IMMIGRANTS who studied here and got degrees in fields our country needs. You know, those degrees that require "thinking and hard work" to obtain.

We are facing critical shortages in Doctors and Nurses but those, too, require lots of work and dedication. Something these 1%, who want us to believe they represent 99%, are very short on.

There are a few fundimental problems here:

1. OWS turned a private property into a squatter slum. The city cleared it because it was a health safety problem, not because the owners of that park got a restraining order to have everyone removed.

2. NYS is spending millions on overtime for police and city service employees having to deal with the protesters. Where is NYC going to get the money, while having to cut services (IE-overnight subway, just in paper), to cover these additional high costs? They either are going to have to raise revenues (taxes) or cut costs (jobs and services).

Some say that the Occupy leadership is attempting to spend "the system" into oblivion- to make it crash. Whether or not this is the case it seems pretty realistic to say that large movements around the country, driving up the muncipal and police costs within cities already in the red, could push them into further hardship and financial danger. This concerns me quite a bit.

While I do agree that there are agregious failures within the current system (IE- Congress gets to make insider trades without penalties, they get to play with lobbiests and corporations [without punishment] while drafting legislation regulating those industries, and Wall Street companies get administrative level guidance positions within the White House (fox guarding the hen house), and big investment banking companies using algorithms to manipulate the markets to make monsterous money for the few and destroying the wealth of the rest, and finally the uber rich having the power to manipulate currencies and destroy countries by their moves (IE- Soros tanking currencies for his gain). These are major problems that we have to fix now. Do I want capitalism to fail- NO. Do I want our government to fail- NO, but it's close to doing that now. We need to work together and reform our government (term limits, laws on trading/deals, etc.) and our markets.

concernedone,

The park is privately owned but zoned as a public park. It's an odd hybrid born from complicated NYC laws. The owners of the property do not have the authority to evict people from it. You do not understand those rules.

The judge thinks she is the public official chosen to safeguard the rights of citizens, which is exactly what she is doing.

matt-1185230:

How about MY right to come to NY and "enjoy" the park that some CITIZEN donated for just that purpose?

I'm sure I would feel safe in expressing my feelings about this OWS nightmare thrust upon the REAL 99% while I'm strolling through the litter and feces, stumbling over zoned out druggies, etal...

AH YES, I SEE ALL THE USEFUL IDIOTS ARE OUT IN FORCE DEMONIZING THE SATANIC WEALTHY.

It is getting so tiring listening to your incessant childish whining and crying about the mean, nasty, fat-cat, rich people and corporations in this country. And of course, the insinuation is that they’re all Republicans, Independents or Conservatives. Like GE’s Jeff Immelt, Right?

So, keeping that in mind, your only solution is very simple. Instead of trespassing, vandalizing, murdering, raping and rioting, do something much more constructive. You obviously have been indoctrinated that the whole corporate world is evil so you need to make a concerted effort to do the following.

TAKE OVER ALL THE FORBE’S 2,000 INDUSTRIES AND MAKE THEM THE UTOPIA YOU SO REVERE.

1. Go to business school for 4-8 years; learn about accounting, economics, human resources, management, payrolls, benefits, inventory and a few hundred other aspects of running a business. Especially a Forbe’s 2,000 business. These are the root of all evil in your self-pity world.

Right?

2. Now, after accumulating over $200,000, or more, in student loans, go get a REAL JOB! Work your way up the corporate ladder, for 25 years or so, based on merit rather than tenure. This will be an unknown accomplishment for you but you’ll pick it up quickly I’m sure.

Right?

3. Once you achieve your position as CEO or president of the company refuse to accept any more than $1 dollar a year in salary than your highest paid employee. No perks, no stock options, no bonuses and no golden parachutes because you know these are all the root of capitalisms failure.

Right? (Remember though, you ARE still responsible for paying back your loan)

4. Now, DO NOT allow your company to make ANY profits because as all you Occupiers so proudly proclaim, profits are bad. Tell any investors and shareholders that they will most likely lose money if they invest in your company because that’s the cause of all the world’s problems, greed.

Right?

5. Let the unions dictate all your wages, benefits and pensions because unions only care about the “little guy”. We know the unions would never use any of the rank-and-files money for anything political, corrupt, fraudulent or imprudent like that.

Right?

6. Let the EPA, environmentalists and other happy groups determine how and when you can produce your product. They, of course, are only concerned with protecting trees, lizards, smelt, turtles and other cute things.

Right?

7. Oh, and make sure you tell the president you are willing to pay much more in taxes than you are responsible for to help all those who don’t want to work. It’s a free country but it’s YOUR responsibility to give them your own money, even though they can work but just don’t want to. Everybody needs to pay their “fair share”.

RIGHT?

See how easy it is? Seven (7) simple steps.

This is all you 99%er’s have to do to create the utopia of social and economic justice for the collective you all cherish so dearly.

In the meantime, the REAL 99% (the 53% of us who proudly work and pay the rest of the taxes that the 1% don’t, so you lazy 47% can sit around, get high, play bongos and ponder your own navels) need to go back to our jobs around Zucotti Park that you have been illegally occupying for too long.

Good Luck! ! ! !

And so it goes....to quote Kurt vonnegut. This is not the way to protest, I'm a product of the sixties and have seen the anarchists, the Bill Ayers and the SDS and the Weathermen in action. They are not about change, they are about radical revolution with the sole intent being to destroy the system.

Destruction and violence, they are as bad as what they claim to protest and the sad irony is that they don't understand. They are the police, they are the brutality and they see themselves as the victims although the goals and tactics they use are nothing but provocation.

There needs to be change, serious change in our corrupt halls of power. It starts by looking at who is in charge and making them responsible to the people, all the people. You do that by not re-electing the toadys and by public outcry, marches and protests that fill the streets of Washington DC. That is the center of the corruption. You join forces with the Teaparty, the aims are similar if what you want is an end to corruption in government, if, however, you want to install a communist state, well, perhaps you need to go to another country.

The OWS made their point weeks ago. It's time to go home and do something constructive.

The occupation is good and bad, the good is that Amerikans are being forced to see that they are not alone a lot of corporate Amerika has crossed the line between capitalism and greed. The bad is their is not a clear message/demand.

The thing to do if we are to truly force corporations out of greed mode is to target the specific offenders and boycott their products/services, pressure the low end employees to quite, make it difficult for them to higher new employees, and block them from distributing their products/services.

All you contract employees out their need to be very careful who you sign contracts with. The question is; are the contracts fair? Are the contracts one sided? If they pull the plug on projects and end your contract are you going to be left out in the cold? Read the contract before you sign it - is it worded and structured so that the employer is gets to have their cake and eat it too? If it is not fair than don't get into bed with the company you will be better off in the long run.

It is our job as the little guy's to make sure we are treated fairly, we don't need unions or politicians to save us at this point in the game we must save ourselves.

I find it striking that the first three posts in this thread were in support of OWS and were "collapsed by community" even though NONE OF THEM violated the Newsvine Code of Conduct. Apparently people are collapsing posts from OWS supporters merely because they don't like OWS.

Opponents of OWS seem to have a common approach: arrest 'em when they try to protest and get rid of their comments when they complain about it on Newsvine. Kind of makes you wonder what happened to the idea that people should be free to express their ideas, doesn't it?

Sooner or later, those that live in that neighborhood, who have to work for a living because they don't have the option to sit in on all of this and make a statement, will get tired of the trash these idiots are leaving around their neighborhood and using the whole area as a giant toilet. They will get tired of these "protesters" who want to cause something more than just a "change." Unfortunately, that's when something bad is going to happen.

But, of course, these fools will blame it on someone else.

These people are just doing this now because it's fun to go against authority. And what fun it must be to be in the news, especially when they throw you on the ground and put the cuffs on ya!!

I see nothing honorable about someone who blows off his or her job and other responsibilities simply to hang out in the park.

Justconcerned: PERFECT!

how many times are you going to post this? I hope the city bills OWS for the clean up not me the tax payer. Go get a seasonal job.

Junicon

Kind of makes you wonder what happened to the idea that people should be free to express their ideas, doesn't it?

The 99% of the 99% did express themselves. That's why they collapsed the posts!

justconcerned great post and DANAELLE what is great about getting the park back that you posted it over and over?? put the effort into finding a job

Jeremy, thank you for the calmest post I have ever read here. I read almost the entire string and I don't disagree with any of you. But it is such a chaotic mess it will be a nightmare to unravel it. Here is the Deal- this is the way they want it. If it is chaos, you will submit to anything the government comes up with to alleviate the chaos. this is the way it works here in America right now. It is a diminishment of your rights that you willingly submit to , to reduce your own fears and needs. It is one more step to socialism. I saw several times in this post, the use of the word "responsible". Sorry everyone, this isn't about Responsibility, because they have no responsibility to you. It is about morality / noble concern and doing the right thing at the right time for the greater good. Your parents and Grandparents are at fault here, they gave in to the last financial crunch in the 1970's and laws that had protected citizens and companies from all of the things you see going on here, were repealed- it was called deregulation. The excuse they used was the need to unchain the banks and businesses so they could prosper and the people bought into it, to relieve their own miseries. This is happening again today, you are buying into a bucket of of false propositions. They will not turn the page back and accept the regulations of the past, they will however manipulate the future with talks of redistribution. Once again this isn't about clamping down on the banks and corporate greed, it will be about taking from the wealthy citizens and inadvertently - this will take more from you because the premise of capitalism will be reduced to nothing but a dream someone once had. Without it and the promise it holds for the people , all the people- our economy and way of life will be doomed. Keep this in mind as we muddle through the next 24-36 months. Many will say yes to the plan, to ease their own misery and the rest of us will pay. Capitalism doesn't work without moral and honorable checkpoints- something that is lacking in every facet of our lives today.

God bless and good luck...

JustConcerned,

I'd rather follow the path of my idol Leo Apotheker.

1) Study economics for 4 years.

2) Become CEO of a multibillion dollar company (in this case, HP).

3) Tank the stock of the company by 40% over 8 months through a series of poorly thought out major shifts in the company. (25% of the drop from a single decision.)

4) Get ousted as CEO before investors come wielding torches and pitchforks.

5) Take $7.2 million in severance pay, $3.56 million in stock options, and a $2.4 million performance bonus.

Actually you know what? I will gladly do what he did for half of the money he got.

Look I'm all for CEO's being justly compensated on the merits of a job well done and hard work. But that is $13 million bucks HP doesn't have to expand its operations, hire new workers, make a new product, or one of a trillion other useful things besides lining the pockets of the guy who nearly sank the company. And what will he do with his millions? Will he invest it in a new business? Will he produce a new product? Will he hire people? Will he start a philanthropy organization? Time will tell, but most likely he will become CEO of another company, tank their stock, and take another couple million, as he did with SAP before he went to HP. That is what the wealthy do to deserve demonization.

Pat 228... "I mostly agree Mark. The one thing you are missing, however, is that this protest wasn't an "angry mob" until the police showed up and began abusing the protesters."

True, Pat - much like how a 2 year old is a well behaved child until a parent shows up and tells them "no".

Only in America .... "Land Of The Free?" lol

" I have never learned anything from people that told me what I want to hear!"

OWS is the best thing that could have happened to the Tea Party.

By Dr. Sowell

The current Occupy Wall Street movement is the best illustration to date of what President Barack Obama's America looks like. It is an America where the lawless, unaccomplished, ignorant and incompetent rule. It is an America where those who have sacrificed nothing pillage and destroy the lives of those who have sacrificed greatly.

It is an America where history is rewritten to honor dictators, murderers and thieves. It is an America where violence, racism, hatred, class warfare and murder are all promoted as acceptable means of overturning the American civil society.

It is an America where humans have been degraded to the level of animals:
defecating in public, having sex in public, devoid of basic hygiene. It is an
America where the basic tenets of a civil society, including faith, family, a
free press and individual rights, have been rejected. It is an America where
our founding documents have been shredded and, with them, every person's
guaranteed liberties.

It is an America where, ultimately, great suffering will come to the American
people, but the rulers like Obama, Michelle Obama, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi,
Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, Joe Biden, Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan, liberal
college professors, union bosses and other loyal liberal/Communist Party members
will live in opulent splendor.

It is the America that Obama and the Democratic Party have created with the
willing assistance of the American media, Hollywood , unions, universities, the
Communist Party of America, the Black Panthers and numerous anti-American
foreign entities.

Barack Obama has brought more destruction upon this country in four years than
any other event in the history of our nation, but it is just the beginning of
what he and his comrades are capable of.

The Occupy Wall Street movement is just another step in their plan for the
annihilation of America.

"Socialism, in general, has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual
could ignore or evade it."

Thomas Sowell

I would add that if we are going to get rid of the crooks who are in charge now, let's not replace them with communist thugs. There are others to chose from. But if we're going to have a revolution, let's make it a Ron Paul Revolution and not a Bolshevik Revolution.

If OWS wants real change they need to-

• Have a unified, unambiguous message (don't tell me that their message is even close to unified).
• Have one or more charismatic figure heads willing to deliver that message, organize civil disobedience, and push for legislations that correct the problem (ie. someone needs to ape MLK Jr.)
• Have an actual plan for bringing about change.

In other words the OWS movement NEEDS to learn from and immitate the Civil Rights movement or IT WILL FAIL!

According to the MSN Homepage poll, the self named "99%" have support from 14% of poll respondents.

Maybe they should re-name themselves the 14% since that is a more accurate representation of the proportion of the population that agrees with them.

Truly, if these small groups are happy living out of tents, resent the protections of society and are willing to support each other in a communal way then why not just surrender a bit of unincorporated, undeveloped Federal land and offer it as a reservation to these miscreants.

The have certainly shunned all reasonable protections so be done with them.

Seriously, what was the point is collapsing this from above....do you honestly think that other sound minds haven't thought about it?

junction in 4.28

I find it striking that the first three posts in this thread were in support of OWS and were "collapsed by community" even though NONE OF THEM violated the Newsvine Code of Conduct. Apparently people are collapsing posts from OWS supporters merely because they don't like OWS.

Opponents of OWS seem to have a common approach: arrest 'em when they try to protest and get rid of their comments when they complain about it on Newsvine. Kind of makes you wonder what happened to the idea that people should be free to express their ideas, doesn't it?

I was collapsed for the above statement and certainly cannot be confused with and OWS supporter.

Pragmatic-3918582

You realize that Apotheker was only allowed that severence package at the hands of the Board of Directors, right? These are usually previous CEO's of said corporation or others, lobbyists or former politicians.

This is why I posted my plan to take over all the Forbe's 2,000 corporations.

What I can gleen from this OWS mob is they are mad at the corporations. The problems are not the corporations, it's the laws that they are able to use and abuse. Why? Because our criminal, massive, unsutainable government allows it.

We have over 72,000 pages of tax code. Do you honestly, in your wildest dreams, believe eliminating a few deductions, transfers, loopholes or other avoidances will fix this huge problem? A tax code is added or changed on average, every single day. We have over 146,000 pages of regulations. This has been estimated to cost our economy over $1.75 TRILLION DOLLARS. This costs small businesses, those with fewer than 20 workers $10,585 per employee, or 36% more than paid by large businesses, those with 500 or more employee's.

89% of all businesses in the U.S. employ less than 20 employees. Large businesses account for only 0.3% of all businesses. Guess where the majority of the taxes on the "RICH" are going to come from? Guess who these massive regulations affect? Yes, small business, the engine that drives our once envied economy.

Our government is out of control, unsustainable and corrupt. The corporations lobby the government ONLY because the government allows it. No president, representative or senator is obliged to be influenced by any outside force, other than We The People.

We have three "Documents of Freedom", the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I recommend the "Occupiers" read them all AND understand them. While they're at it have them read the 85 essays of the Federalist Papers.

Once they realize how near perfect these blueprints our Founder's and Framer's left us are they will finally understand where the seat of all our nations corruption originates.

Government.

Then, and only then, will the criminality of nearly 100 years of Progressivism be realized. I particularly recommmend you and the 99%er's read about the "Revolution of 1937", this was the largest usurpation of our Constitution in our short history.

The cause of the OWS may be honorable, unfortunately it is horribly misdirected.

Good Luck!

Unless the OWS can do what I asked in my first post #1.5, it will continue to collapse under the weight of its own dysfunction.

So the morons found a moronic judge to issue a court order allowing them to return to Zuccotti park. Since this park is privately owned I don’t see how this court order is in any way valid, but I'm no lawyer.

Txmon32 4.51

People collapsing posts mostly for no other reason but disagreeing with another point of view is very common in the newsvine. I think the moderators should revisit the rules for collapsing the posts of others, but I seriously doubt they will.

OWS got corporate greed's attention... Now organize and show how powerful the 99% really are by strategically taking down a bank.

It is logical to focus on one Bank that was the straw that broke the camel's back and make a run on it by CLOSING accounts and moving them to CU's or community banks.

The key to this is for ALL in the 99% to take the time to close your account and move it.

This is a small sacrifice but will have corporate America on there heels.

Some say it started with BOA so continue till they are only left with the 1%.

OWS got corporate greed's attention... Now organize and show how powerful the 99% really are by strategically taking down a bank.

It is logical to focus on one Bank that was the straw that broke the camel's back and make a run on it by CLOSING accounts and moving them to CU's or community banks.

The key to this is for ALL in the 99% to take the time to close your account and move it.

This is a small sacrifice but will have corporate America on there heels.

Some say it started with BOA so continue till they are only left with the 1%.

OWS got corporate greed's attention... Now organize and show how powerful the 99% really are by strategically taking down a bank.

It is logical to focus on one Bank that was the straw that broke the camel's back and make a run on it by CLOSING accounts and moving them to CU's or community banks.

The key to this is for ALL in the 99% to take the time to close your account and move it.

This is a small sacrifice but will have corporate America on there heels.

Some say it started with BOA so continue till they are only left with the 1%.

OWS got corporate greed's attention... Now organize and show how powerful the 99% really are by strategically taking down a bank.

It is logical to focus on one Bank that was the straw that broke the camel's back and make a run on it by CLOSING accounts and moving them to CU's or community banks.

The key to this is for ALL in the 99% to take the time to close your account and move it.

This is a small sacrifice but will have corporate America on there heels.

Some say it started with BOA so continue till they are only left with the 1%.

txmom32

Truly, if these small groups are happy living out of tents, resent the protections of society and are willing to support each other in a communal way then why not just surrender a bit of unincorporated, undeveloped Federal land and offer it as a reservation to these miscreants.

I have an even better idea.

Recent events in Alabama and other states have created thousands of new jobs. Many hard working farmers are looking for strong, young and able Americans to work. The OWSer's can probably even convince the farmers to allow them to pitch their tents on their land.

Two solutions to a single problem. The American way.

JustConcerned....now see how simple brain storming can come to a reasonable solution in problem solving....I raise a glass to your proposal.

You're talking about a few hundred people. More people than all these Occupy protests were protesting Joe Paterno's firing. Only the left wing media gives this "movement" any credence at all. What a joke.

My previous comment was collapsed because I was honest...

...I called Prez-0 a socialist...

DOH! now this one will be collapsed!

JustConcerned,

That the board compensated him such for messing up as badly as he did shows that it is isolated from reality. If I as a lowly employee messed up a millionth as much as that, I'd be shown the door with instructions that the door not hit my behind while I was exiting! While I agree our tax code is part of the problem I haven't got a good idea for what to replace it with. Value Added Taxes like they have in Europe are seen as either a "federal sales tax" or "socialism" even though it is a pretty fair tax. I also bear in mind the two things that brought about 100 years of progressivism. The first was this rather psychotic obsession with building utopian societies that was prevalent in the early 20th century. (This also gave us "gems" like eugenics, temperance, and communism.) The second was a knee-jerk reaction to societal ills. While the former has fallen out of favor, the latter will be a stumbling block.

I see the Paid Corporate Bloggers are all over this story.

Fake News along with corporate America, Wall Street, and the Republicans are in league to trash any article on MSNBC website to make democrats think they have no chance of winning thereby supressing voter turnout

They are here to stay and there is nothing we can do about that except VOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You Paid Corporate Bloggers need a new “strategy” because The Truth is now out There

Pragmatic...value added tax is nothing more than a sales tax. If the Federal Government wished to institute a reasonable Federal Sales Tax in lieu of income tax I would agree to it...but our Federal Government is too greedy they would never choose to adopt the Sales tax and drop the income tax.

As for "progressivism", new term old ideology that works both sides of the political fence...in the vernacular of our forefathers striving to create a more perfect union...however, not all agree on what constitutes "perfect".

txmom32

(Looking at watch, it's past 9am)

Cheers!

;)

What do you think do the rich need the working class? does the workingclass need the one percent? one cant exist without the other not in this world! America has to return to its industrious roots, every thing is world orientated now, and that is part of the problem (new world order ) and our politicians are committedto this, that is wrong we as Americans have no representation. not just Republicans Democrats as well! Clinton signed the free trade and special trade agreements as well as pass the Bliley act , the spiral in the Bushyears have roots in the Clinton years, so forget the party blaming this has been going on for a very long time and both parties are equally to blame. I don't see OWS lastingthe winter, they are protestingthe wrong people! the traitors in Washingtonare the ones that need to be spanked and run off they are the ones that made this nightmare a reality, but unless someone comes up with a clear plan (not by some lying incumbant) its all for not. so here'sthe thing people do your home work and be very carefull of who you vote for, most people vote for party or race or if they like someones looks some vote on impulse a small amount of people actually study the person or view the policies, also the president is useless if the congress and the senate won't work in the same direction, its the whole government that needs to be analyzedunder the microscope, not the one at the top the presidency is more than one man its a team. one thing is for certain we need to downsize this inefficient monster, and get rid of the electoral vote, we need more diversity, states with large urban populations control states with lesser populations and dictate how they must live when they don't have a clue what is needed in that rural area the needs are different. NJ & NY should not be running Montana, and visa versa. $hitcan big government and support state government. a strong state government supported by a more moderate federal government is how we were originally created and for a reason so that the people would actually be in control of there interest. the problem is in fact a runaway bureaucracy, and power hungry politicians in Washington. think about it. its the politicians that are in the drivers seat if they do inside trading, or take payoffs from wallstreet then the full force of the law should be brought down upon them, even if there names are Kerry or Pelosi, they should be tried as traitors of the United States of America. forget wallstreet they are doing whats natural for them and working for their shareholders the politicians are supposed to be working for us. can you reason that out.

Folks, good news. The documentary "Thrive" is out for free on YouTube. Just go to YouTube and search on Thrive and you will be presented with a world view of what is driving the Occupy the World phenomena. The snow ball has been pushed over the edge of the mountain and it can't be stopped. The world is waking up and we will all be better off for it. Thank you to all the people who are trying to make a positive change for our planet and humanity. We can "all" THRIVE on this planet.

JoeNY

You said it all. Place some regulation on the ones making the rules block the ability of congress to make rules that only apply to the rest of us and not them. give them the same retirement and medical benefits that the rest of us have. OWS and the rest can gripe about the rich, the banks, the lawyers and its like they don't realize the rich, the bankers and lawyers are the people that were elected by us. When was the last person making 50 or 60 K elected to congress or the senate?

MG1957...

OWS got corporate greed's attention... Now organize and show how powerful the 99% really are by strategically taking down a bank.

So the 99% are going to strategically take down a bank....so the Fed can bail them out with tax money paid by working America....really not a good plan. My glass will stay rested on the table.

Here is a thought for OWS....let's load them on bussed, along with their tents and sleeping bags, and send them to the southern border. Once there they can build fence or fill in tunnels to keep them busy...it can be seen as an AmeriCorps program. Seems Obama tripled their budget, at a time when a whole lot of misused funds were being identified and in some instance reclaimed, we should get something tangible out of it.

Its good to see that the Bankers have collapsed my comments. That shows me they are afraid of me.

Well this is for sure... Dispite Banker paid Polls the 99% will not go away. The Courts have ruled in our favor and Fuhrer Bloomberg is so shocked by the Courts going against him that he has refused to abide by a court of law. He will be found to be in contempt of the court and jailed. I hope.

The 99% are not going away.

I love how so many on here are characterizing the OWS protestors without knowing a thing about them other than what they've been told by one biased source or another. From 'dirty hippies' to 'lazy college kids' to 'anarchists' to 'the face of Obama's America' to 'drug addicts and criminals' you've found ways to marginalize through language your fellow Americans who are speaking up about the corporatization of the US. You may not like the way they are going about it, but at least they are attempting to DO something.

For an interesting (but not unbiased) portrait of OWS, see here: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-i-stopped-worrying-and-learned-to-love-the-ows-protests-20111110

Rolling Stone offers an "unbiased protratit? I will have to read that.

People, just exercise the rights already available to you. Mad at government? Then vote. Mad at corporations? Don't buy stock. Sell what you have. Invest in other things- perhaps savings bonds are more your style.

But can the people who live and work in the areas in which you occupy not have their rights trampled? Are they lesser citizens than you?

DrDrGrimmetheNews...Sorry I couldn't bother reading an author who thinks he can be taken seriously when he is using the term "reichskank" to discuss anyone in print....I suppose if the Author wished to make a point he would tame the inflammatory rhetoric and well express his point of view in a civil manner....but then it is a tabloid article targeting a specific demographic.

Sorry upon re-read you did state "not" unbiased, my apologies. I just couldn't get to the interesting part.

tambo,

Stocks don't work like votes. Not everybody gets exactly one. And money is more powerful than a vote. You vote for candidate x to do y. Then recently elected official x is schmoozed by corporation z to fulfill their wishes. The voters get shafted again and the stock value of corporation z goes up. It's an endless cycle so long as everybody says "geez, the party in power is really corrupt. Let's vote for the only other equally corrupted party!" I wouldn't have gone about it like OWS. I would have come out with a message very loud and very clear: For the love of God, vote third party in 2012, that's the only way out of this endless mess.

txmom32

...in the vernacular of our forefathers striving to create a more perfect union...however, not all agree on what constitutes "perfect".

Ahhhhh, how refreshing to see someone who embraces our great Constitution.

However, the Framer's didn't, or couldn't, agree on what constitutes "perfect". That's why the Preamble, as an introduction to the body of the Constitution, states ,,,in order to form a more perfect union,,,NOT a perfect union. They understood it wasn't perfection and allowed the Amendment process to be used.

As a Constitutional Originalist it drive me nucking futs when I hear or read the incessant obfuscations of the revisionists of our Constitution. The misinterpretations and manipulations have been catastrophic to our Federal Constitutional Republic.

More embarrassingly, it is sad to see how many cling to the perception that we are a Democracy. We are a Representative Democracy, which simply means we have periodic free elections. Our form of government, however, is a Republic.

When asked what type of government the American people were going to participate in, by a well-meaning woman, a stern Benjamin Franklin warned that our new government was going to be "A republic, madam, if you can keep it."

"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the Republic."`Ben Franklin

Tyler....thank you...seems you have your work cut out for you today.

Tyler, I noticed that a lot of comments have been restored but not mine, Was wondering why ?

It's sad, isn't it Tyler? Until civility returns to this country (if ever!) we will find in nearly impossible to have civil dialogue without trolls ruining it for the rest of us.

For those of you who are blaming partisan politics, isn't the answer simple? ABOLISH POLITICAL PARTIES! Our first president, George Washington, never wanted them in the first place! Let's get rid of the political parties so our elected leaders can't hide behind party platforms anymore. Force them to stand on their OWN MERITS AND IDEALS. Of course, then none of them would be elected, would they?

Pragmatic, actually, a share of stock is exactly like a vote. Shareholders elect the board of directors for public companies every year...not just the biggest shareholders, but every single shareholder.

And money does influence. Why do you think millions are spent on campaigns? It's to pay for catchy slogans and fancy ads to convince you who to vote for. Here is an interesting thought- who pays for those $1K a plate fundraiser dinners for Obama?

And while I tend to be more Libertarian than anything else, a third party is a doomed failure. Look, people vote their special interest. To say otherwise is to be a fool. Unions vote Democrat. Welfare votes Democrats. Business people tend to vote Republican. Any votes for a third party candidate will be wasted and swing the election to one of the existing parties. It's happened before. We all know that.

The 99%..? That's the biggest laugh or joke that OWS has going. Unless you're talking about 99% flea and lice infestation, and the blind arrogant and completely mislead.

It is essentially the "WHERE'S MY STUFF" Crowd... well my advice is: Go out, work and get your own stuff. Make your own way.... get to work, get off your duff.

Just Concerned .. please run for president

Matt-1883244

COMPLETELY FALSE AARON, Big government and fiat currency is the problem not people who want a small government and economic freedom. Socialism is destroying this country just as it is in Europe.

WAKE UP!!!!

Really Matt? Please name for me one Federal, State, County or City agency or program that is not essentially socialist. If that's too difficult, name one Federal, State, County or City agency or program that is essentially capitalist. Unless you are an Anarchist, you don't have a problem with socialist programs, you have a problem with socialist programs YOU DON'T LIKE!

Ol Doc: Prior to the New Deal and the succession of progressive politicans pushing their agendas this country didn't have the government intrusions like it does today. You cannot do diddly squat today without having some regulatory agency in your face. You like big government? You like having government controlling all that you do?

As to naming a governmental agency that is capitalist? Perhaps you should examine your definitions. Capitalism is free market enterprise, it exists as a business model, not a social model.

For those of you claiming that any and all opposition to OWS is coming from "banks", "paid corporate shills", or "republican operatives"... step back a moment and realize their are people who have a different perspective from you, that their perspective is valid even if you disagree with it, and that it is as honestly and as passionately held as your own.

Some of you no doubt feel that capitalism is the problem. Many of us do not. Many of us, who are very solidly in the 99% who OWS claims to speak for (but we do not consent to having them speak for us) are not interested in tearing down capitalism, as we see that it is a good thing that allows us to make our lives as we wish and to prosper if we work hard and smart... even if it is not perfect. This is not to say that we do not see the crony aspect of crony capitalism as a problem, many of us do, and would like to limit the ability of the government to create the crony part of that equation.

We then stand astounded when we see many of you arguing against the liberty and prosperity that capitalism provides, and in favor of more government power that creates the crony problem... and feel like we're all talking past each other because it looks like you are coming from some kind of alternate reality - a sentiment which is no doubt returned in kind.

But either way, know that there are plenty of honest hard working and solidly middle and working class people who do not share your aims and believe that even if your intentions are good, the unintended consequences of what you propose would be disastrous for all of us.

You may disagree that, and we can all disagree reasonably (though there is plenty of venom going around here) but know that these comments are not all some kind of paid for conspiracy just because some of us disagree with you.

I cant help but wonder Why? would someone quit a job to go protest about not having a job??? and the others that took a leave of absents to join the protest, this is not (in my mind) rational thinking! all these so called educated people are missing something, they have the education but they don't know what to do with it. maybethey should have went to trade school instead of law school did they even bother to look into the markets for their chosen professions prior to putting out the money on that expensive education? I don't care how much education a person receives they will not be any smarter than they are, just more educated. I never really gave it much thought before but now it seems that that can be dangerous. its obvious some people just like to protest.

"Pragmatic, actually, a share of stock is exactly like a vote. Shareholders elect the board of directors for public companies every year...not just the biggest shareholders, but every single shareholder."

Well, not exactly. Because as a stockholder, you have as many votes as you have shares, so the biggest shareholders do control the elections.

Yes but not to worry, the police are disbanding them. OWS is infinitely more fascist than the police.

Wow! Did you just Godwin the discussion before even 50 posts?

How embarrassing for you!

Great Idea anonymous. the only problem with that is who do you think is providing all the money for your superhero Odumbos one billion dollar presidential campaign. Contrary to popular belief the dumacrats bring in more corporate money then Repubs.

Oh and don't worry about the scumbag union money, I mean corporate money is bad but when unions take money from their so called brothers, the working class, and give it to the dems so they can make energy more expensive and destroy good paying jobs like drilling for oil that's all fine and good right!!

Tick.

Actually, Godwin's applies directly to Nazis.

Fascism isn't solely a Nazi thing.

I'd feel better about the movement if it had a unified focus. Signs reading "Save the Amazon Forests", "Support a Free Egypt!" , "End the present order!" and "Socialism Now!" do nothing to suggest that it soon will. Every group imaginable, with every agenda imaginable, had come into the spotlight. The effect is sometimes circus-like, with the only display of unity being cheers that erupt when a speaker says anything about anything. As for the police being "fascists", I disagree. They are neighbors and fellow citizens who are doing their job. History has witnessed other uprisings of "the people", and the end result was often every bit as oppressive and unjust (or more so) than that which it replaced. The Occupy Movement has a chance to become something good - or to be hijacked by a different kind of "thug in jackboots".

The thing is Hans, the problems are many tiered. OWS is basically an protest against all of bad ideas that neo-conservatives have heaped on the country in the last 30 years. There is a tendency by those on the right to want simple easy to understand and print to bumper sticker style policies. We're not going to get to where we need to be by glossing over major problems and just picking easy targets to be mad at.

Wall Street has become the focus because they seem to be the lynch pin of whole corrupt mess. They own the politicians. Their calls for less regulation on business and banking has sent us into a nose dive. They're short sited speculation schemes have created chaos. So that's why they're getting yelled at. The TEA party missed the mark because ultimately all they did was get mad at an effect (corrupt government), while getting into bed with the cause (Wall Street). Thus they made themselves tools of the status quo.

rconstant...

The thing is Hans, the problems are many tiered. OWS is basically an protest against all of bad ideas that neo-conservatives have heaped on the country in the last 30 years.

So what you are saying is the upsets these protesters have are too complex for them to identify and put into a words because they don't truly understand what they are angry about...it is just cool to be angry? That is like saying it is cool to vote for change when you have to vote for it to understand what change is being bantered about.

We certainly have a serious problem with young people in this country.

Sheep to the slaughter- Useful idiots I think was the term Lenin used! TxMom- we seriously do have a problem with the young in this country- they have become the useful idiots, the entitled, the minority of choice for obamanation. Everyone said give him a chance, how is the hopey changey thing working out? it isnt! That's how!

Remember the election? Hope without a plan is fantasy. Change is all they have left, change in their pockets- I said it 3 years ago and it is true today. What do they want to change to? Socialists and rebel rousers? Social organizers? They wont get jobs in their new world economy- just more of the same- Greek Greed and issues of entitlement.

Seattle, I do hope you haven't written off ALL of us young folks! Some of us still work to earn our bread, y'know! But you've got a point. The Entitlement mentality is ruining this country.

rconstant- The saddest thing is that most of the solutions to solve these problems are in the hands of the politicians, and they will never enact them. For instance, make it illegal to take campaign contributions from anyone other than private citizens. I know, I know, the money will still get through, but it's a start. Then, as has been suggested so many times, make it so that politicians cannot pass any law for us that does not apply equally to them, and vice versa. As for the corporations? Pass a flat tax and get rid of the loopholes. Make everyone pay a fair share. And make sure that tax applies to ALL corporate revenue, not just what they make on American soil. If they sell it here, they have to pay taxes on it!

Oh, and give Congress a pay cut while we're at it. Make it less attractive to the profit-mongers and give the jobs to people who really WANT to make a difference.

In America we all have the right to have a revolution every 4 years, its called election day, we also have the right to correct a mistake if we chose to, its called impeachment. the problem is we always leave it up to someone else to do something and no one can figure out who someone is so if you want change get involved in the existing system and be someone. end of subject.

catsclaw,

I havent written all young folks off, just most. I had a guy in my office today, this very morning- engineering type, mechanical, just graduated from college, no experience and wouldn't work for less than $85,000 a year and wanted a fixed bonus to get him up to $100K. Not a chance for a Jr engineer who doesnt know anything......yeah he can Auto cad all day, but thats not what I need. try doing the engineering studies and do it quickly and efficiently without being told to do it.

He was 25 Yr old, took 6 yearto complete a 4 year degree