Actually it is not. A spanking that may last 10 seconds by a belt or a daddy's helping hand, is a great deterrent for a child when next he or she encounters the same or similar situations. Granted going as far as Pastor Pearl seems to think is OK, is really not. Since the removal of corporal punishment in the schools, I have seen a serious decline on children's behaviour. When a child can tell a parent that if they don't do what they say they will call the police and say the parent is abusing them, then there is something wrong. There is truth to spare the rod spoil the child as long as it is done right and not abusively. I can tell you from my own experience that when I was spanked, it made me think twice before ever doing the same thing again. Where as now when I drive down the road, kids will get in front of my car and almost dare me to hit them. The lack of respect is overwhelming in today's society and I think its all due to the fact that we went away from corporal punishment in the schools and homes.

I was raised on these same techniques and I know first hand they DO WORK. I so glad I got my ass busted when I needeed it and was tought respect and boundarys. I love my mom and dad Thank god they loved me enough to spank me when I needed it and they should me love as well. That's how it works "you let your yes be your yes and your no be your no" in everything you do with your children.

Sorry - I'm for the Jewish mother's discipline - if you must hit a child use a feather!

what is wrong with you people? You are the adults and they are children - there are other ways - confining to the bedroom - no toys just think what you did - take away their money or privileges - no TV

I raised horses - I would never buy a horse that was abused - the scars ran too deep for me to overcome - and you don't think your scars don't run deep

yes I raised three children - there where times I would have like to smack them - what stopped me - my childhood - and I vowed never to lay a hand unless it was with love - Not sorry I think you are all nuts - you are the adults - shame on you

A spanking that may last 10 seconds by a belt or a daddy's helping hand

10 seconds with a belt??? Seriously, you are defending that as discipline??

If you saw someone on the street being hit 7 or 8 times with a belt I'm willing to bet you would call 911.

i agree Bubbie!

My daughter listens to me just fine and I have never had to hit her and never will. It's probably because I have always had the patience to take the time to talk to her and be a parent.

What on earth does your children do that deserve them to be beaten? Please, give some examples.

@brenda,

You can't raise children without discipline but that you can raise them without violence. Committing violence against children teaches them 2 things:

• You are not a rational person
• You don't regard them as rational people

This breaks down trust. Rather than regarding spanking as a deterrent, children regard it as a cause for guilt, secrecy and passive aggression. They become sullen and withdrawn or rebellious and aggressive. In either case they come to regard spankers with genuine fear and contempt.

It is not easy to learn not to spank, but non-violent methods of discipline are in truth more effective. 2-5 minute time-outs work very well with children from about 3 years up. Prior to that they will normally respond to a simple change in tone of voice.

Maintaining a genuine trust relationship with your child eventually becomes self-reinforcing for the discipline required of them is for the most part their own self-discipline. When you raise your children this way you eventually need do little more than let them know when you feel they are violating your trust to induce them to alter their behaviour.

This is not to suggest that you can raise children without discipline, but that you can raise them without violence. The two are not the same. If you love your children, please think again on this issue. Doing so can make a real difference in their lives - and in yours.

goes to show you a person can take anything in extreme. You can eat too much candy and it will make you sick. you spank because it is a form of punishment. one commenter wrote that it should hurt the parent more than the kid. He was right.

How about a thirteen year old, who has never had a hand put on him, slapping his mother in the face, because she told he to shut up in front of his friends. I guess he just needed some time out? Maybe no videos for a while, What do you think? oh yeah and he had six inch's and a 100 pounds on her! I busted his ass and told him if he ever put his hands on her again, I would end him. Now he's twenty and there has never been any more problems out of him, none!. He's a good young man and a great father. We're proud and he respects and loves us both.

Every normal person knows the difference between a well-needed swat on the behind and child abuse.

This sicko is referring to children as "stubborn mules" and advising parents to carry around a specially-made implement with which to beat them.

Pop-quiz: Is he promoting appropriate discipline, or child abuse?

This is too funny. Spanking your child is not violence. Abusing your child is violence. I would even go as far as to say if you refrain from discipline then you are the abuser. I have a neighbor that has never laid a hand on his 3 boys. He has tried everything under the sun to get them to do as he wants. Bottom line is they don't listen to him because his threats of stay in your room and think about it or I'm taking your toys away for a day are just that, threats. There is no suffering to associate with bad behavior so there is no punishment. Needless to say, two of his kids are now in Juvinial detention and it's not looking good for the third. How can a child take you seriously when all you do is time outs and iddle threats? As they get older they realize you do not deserve respect.

PS they do not become sullen and withdrawn. MY siblings and I are proof of that.

Spanking remained a strong predictor of violent behavior in the child. As five-year-olds, the children who had been spanked were more likely than the non-spanked to be defiant, demand immediate satisfaction of their wants and needs, become frustrated easily, have temper tantrums and lash out physically against other people or animals.

Quite simply, spanking produces WORSE behavior, not better behavior. It also begets more violence, because hitting children teaches them that it is acceptable to hit others who are smaller and weaker. “I'm going to hit you because you hit your sister” is a hypocrisy not lost on children. As every parent knows, kids do what we do, not what we say.

You confuse "discipline" with physical threats. Discipline by a responsible parent does not involve physical beatings. That's the coward's way of parenting and all it does is educate a child about submission to someone who can hurt you. It does nothing to foster self-discipline. Your siblings and you are simply proof that you can suffer abuse and become an adult who thinks abuse is good. Sick.

What gets me is that these people who apparently know the Bible so well are quoting something 'spare the rod, spoil the child' which is not even in the Bible. It's from a poem, actually a rather erotic poem.

The only reference in the Bible to the rod in this manner refers to a shephard guiding his flock - a shephard's rod is a symbol of power and authority and is never used to strike the sheep, only to guide them. Which is really the message the Bible makes.

Goes to show that if you say something is 'in the Bible' enough times, even the Bible Thumpers begin to believe it and develop life philosophies around it, despite the fact that it's not even in the damn Bible in the first place!

I guess it should be no surprise when the ignorant display ignorance....

I was spanked as a child, with all sorts of implements - but it was never done viciously or incredibly hard. It was never done out of rage. Carrying around specially designed tools just for whipping your child... is creepy. Writing a guide book on how to whip your child - even more creepy. Especially given that spanking originated in pagan fertility cults as a heavily erotic means to increase a young woman's fertility.

Corporal punishment is ignorant and destructive; it is an obscene and lazy way to parent.

While I do agree that a "spanking" can be used as an effective means of discipline, I do NOT believe that it needs to be achieved with the help of a weapon. I am one that has no problem spanking my kids, when needed. I disagree with belts for the most part, I had to pick my switch as a child a few times. I am of the mind that those alternatives should only be used on an older child/teenager, if there is no other method that is feasable, on REALLY bad screwups. There is never any reason to use a "tool" on a small child or baby. A simple swat on their hands, followed by a firm "NO!" usually does the trick until they are 4 or 5. Then, a little swat on the butt, maybe a time out, loss of priveledges. Sometimes a smack on their mouth for getting mouthy and rude, they learn not to do it pretty quick. I have never needed a tool with my kids, and I dont plan to. I am usually able to talk to my oldest two about what they did wrong, they seem to listen better to someone talking than screaming, and I think that is all kids. A little bit of conversation goes a long way. Alot people dont understand that there are times for physical discipline, and there are times for mental discipline. Its usually one or the other, to an extreme. That is the saddest part. On one hand, you have the kids who have never been subjected to discipline, other than a talking to, and they have a tendancy to think that the big bad world is the same way, and are in for a rude awakening when they get out there. Many dont make it very far without some form of "UH. WHAT?" That, and the fact that they will be needing mom and dad to help clear things up. On the other hand, you have the kids who were subjected to physical violence to an extreme, and when they get into the big bad world, they are more than capable to make it, but they dont have empathy or the ability to care for someone else, causing them to have a wide array of equally debilitating problems through life. This isnt a science, just my opinion, from what I have seen. I am not saying that it is all people, just seems to be a trend of sorts.

I was raised on these same techniques and I know first hand they DO WORK. I so glad I got my ass busted when I needeed it and was tought respect and boundarys.

.... They didn't hit you in the head did they? Or you using a phone to post?

I busted his ass and told him if he ever put his hands on her again, I would end him

Yes J nickes, a death threat is always an appropriate ending to "loving discipline".

I so glad I got my ass busted when I needeed it and was tought respect and boundarys.

Not so much education though, it would seem.

It's mostly a matter of the parameters you set - I've never physically disciplined either of my two kids ((19 and 20, now) If I were to raise my voice to either one it would be worse than a whipping. They're both wonderful people (who would never whack their kids, I'll bet.) I've always loved both of them so much I wouldn't have been able to bear to hurt them.

Pearl should of had a cocktail before he had written his book he would have been in a better state of mind..Some people shouldn't be allowed to have children or even access to them, they would rather give birth to a adult.

I believe discipline works when it is well defined and consistently administered.... whether by rod or other less harmful methods. If you are inconsistent and wishy-washy in disciplining your child through words and penalties and such, it will not work and your kid will rule your life. Applying the same inconsistency while using the rod, however, can have dire consequences... your child may "appear" to behave but will truly either be misbehaving behind your back or have psychological issues later.

So using vitrually ANY other method but corporal punishment and applying consistent and clear "life rules" will allow you to raise a "good kid" that still thinks for themselves and knows how to deal with conflict through words.

Yes, some have been successful with corporal punishment, but the possible failure scenarios are much worse than with other methods.

Of course if you're trying to brainwash a kid with beliefs that cannot be trained using reason and logic, I guess the rod is your answer.

Shuklack- Goes to show that if you say something is 'in the Bible' enough times, even the Bible Thumpers begin to believe it and develop life philosophies around it, despite the fact that it's not even in the damn Bible in the first place!

Goes to show that because someone uses a Fraze like spare the rod spoil the child, there is always someone who speculates your a christian and that its your belief that it says that in the Bible. Also it's interesting to note that you would automatically think that I would always resort to spanking as the primary form of punishment first. I think I spanked each of my children maybe 3 times in their entire life. And yes, I think they deserved each time. Not because i was angry and wanted to beat the crap out of them, but that it was fitting each time. It's people like i am hearing in this forum that has only solidified my belief that these people are the reason for the way children are today.

A swat on the rear. A SWAT will get a kid's attention. There is no need for multiple strikes, there is certainly no need for a belt or a switch.

Anyone hitting their kid with a belt or a switch has a screw loose. You're doing it more for you than your kid.

Goes to show that because someone uses a Fraze like spare the rod spoil the child, there is always someone who speculates your a christian and that its your belief that it says that in the Bible

Lol really? Are you actually making the argument that when someone uses that phrase that they DON'T believe that it's a Biblical reference? The phrase from the poem is actually a Biblical reference afterall, but it's not an accurate portrayal.

People that are referring to the poem THINK they are referring to the Bible... which is really, pretty obvious.

I think I spanked each of my children maybe 3 times in their entire life. And yes, I think they deserved each time.

That's fine and dandy - spanking is fine. But this guy writes a guidebook on whipping your children and treating them as you would a mule. Children within this guy's 'flock' have apparently died because of this mentality. Seriously... do you not see where that might cross the line?

Good Morning LMarcT! - I hope things are going well for you.

The most important two words in the article are "common sense". There IS a difference between dicipline and abuse. There IS a difference between getting a child's attention and beating a child.

People who advocate physical punishment take every delight in beating children. Why? Simple. Religious fanatics tend to be hugely sexually repressed after being told how bad sexuality is. Never mind there's no other way to be born that they've yet to reinvent.

So when a parent is beating a child, their adrenalin pumps and their sexual repression increases their aggression against those weaker than they are. They get off on beating kids. They know rape is wrong. So they use the excuse that beating their kids is "disciplining" them. It's not. It's merely their own repressed sexuality finding escape in a less criminal version of child rape.

Shuklack, try Proverbs 13:24

Whoever spares the rod hates their children,

but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.

Good morning Chuck... love those Chiefs, huh?

I agree with your post... the bottom line is "common sense". Taking corporal punishment to the level of abuse AND having an inconsistent message and application is the worst combination possible. But having the utility of "getting their attention" as part of your "arsenal" is great for raising a good and motivated kid that thinks for themselves.

Senior Chief, I knew of the passage - which I indicated in my first post. It's not the same reference - the poem referenced the Bible, but referencing the Bible through the poem would be a faulty citation since the poem utilizes the Biblical reference in a different context.

The Biblical reference to 'spare the rod' is from this proverb:

"Whoever spares the rod hates their children,
but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them."

The word 'rod' in Hebrew appears numerous times throughout the Bible - but is often translated differently depending on the context, as a sceptar, shephard's staff, etc. All are symbols of authority and discipline in the tribal context of the Bible.

The passage means basically "Discipline your Children" - it does not necessarily mean "hit them with the symbol of discipline"...

The reference of "spare the rod, spoil the child" is from a poem where the poet talks about spanking children, and women, and his girlfriends because 'they like it'....

@Ewent

Your entry is absolute bigoted garbage. Do you even have children? It is unfortunate but children don't always respond to a 'nose in the wall' or being 'sent to time out'.

I get no pleasure at all when it is necessary to spank one of my two boys. It is an absolute last resort and hurts me greatly to do it. I wouldn't expect someone who "armchair judges" others, without any experience, to understand.

I'm a Christian and I keep spanking my children as one of many tools to educate and teach my children that there are consequences for your actions. So because of that I'm sexually repressed? I'd like to see you prove that and enforce a legal restriction on me in a court of law. Or are you just slandering wildly?

Perhaps if your parents had used good judgement in disciplining you in your youth you might not be so prone to screaming "your sexually repressed". You might understand that it's rude to lump everyone into a fanatical status simply because you disagree with it.

Have a nice day.

Retired Senior Navy Chief...In Biblical times, it was acceptable to stone women for adultery. Should we adhere strictly to everything the Bible advised on that issue too?

How thick were the Biblical rods? How is beating a child a parent's right when the very same act on a public street would get them jail time?

Double standards, double standards, double standards.

Thank you! People are sheep, and only because it's easier to be a sheep than think for yourself. Appreciate your clearing things up because I am reading way too much mud on this page.

Pop-quiz: Is he promoting appropriate discipline, or child abuse?

I have his book and he does not promote abuse. Anyone can take it too far. I find it odd that all three deaths in the story were of adopted children.....

WWJD?

We all known what an advocate of corporal punishment JC was. (sarcasm)

Christians ? What a joke.

So when a parent is beating a child, their adrenalin pumps and their sexual repression increases their aggression against those weaker than they are.

I hope you are not a shrink. I mean, where did you learn this theory? This is more harmful than spanking. What if we turn this around, a 13 year old beat the crap out of his mother, is it because its a sexual repression as well? Your theory is for creepy, sick, and sexual perverse individuals.

Incredible. It goes to show that several decades of rather poignant behavioral research on children's development cannot overcome the ignorant "teachings" of numerous centuries of religious zeal.

What I find sad is that, as a Christian myself, I have a hard time believing that Jesus would not only condone, but encourage, corporal punishment on children. Can anyone legitimately support the notion of seeing Jesus standing there, with his hand raised high, striking a young child for some presumed infraction?? Hardly.

I'm a little irritated that this article was written in the context of religion, since child abuse transcends all cultural influences. But I understand the notion of "spare the rod, spoil the child" has been ingrained into the Christian community for a very long time. I would like to think that true Christians, those who try to understand and emulate the love of Jesus, would be the ones who do NOT accept corporal punishment....but apparently that's a foregone conclusion.

I have no problems with an occasional smack on the butt to get a child's attention. But with two young boys of my own, I acknowledge the importance of constraint as it relates to my emotions and force. First, I do not haul their pants down; a simple slap through the clothing will still have the "desired effect". Second, I do not punish in anger, or when I feel upset. My boys (5 and 2) know when I am upset, as the tone of my voice changes to reflect the situation. They KNOW when I am at my limit, and 99% of the time all I have to do is utilize my "dad voice" and they do just fine. I take great precautions, however, to restrain myself from being a tyrant. In fact, I can count on one hand the number of times I have had to spank them, and I rarely have to raise my voice. It has more to do with the tone and inflection of my voice, as well as the fact that I can influence them far more with direct conversation and attention than with any quick slap. My wife and I have a very close, loving relationship, and we provide a nice, stable, loving home for our boys. That alone, imho, goes much further in creating well-behaved children than anything else.

Granted, it is very difficult to reason or use logical rationale with a very young child. But how can we expect them to learn reason if we do not at least try? I TALK to my children all the time. I purposely take time out of each day (despite my work schedule) to learn about their day, see how they're doing, and get to know them. On weekends, I explicitly make time to spend with them and have fun. It's called parenting, and while sometimes it's hard work, the joys are endless.

Shucklack- Lol really? Are you actually making the argument that when someone uses that phrase that they DON'T believe that it's a Biblical reference?

Yes I am, because I used the phrase and I do not believe it came from the bible. So..there i guess. LOL

That's fine and dandy - spanking is fine. But this guy writes a guidebook on whipping your children and treating them as you would a mule. Children within this guy's 'flock' have apparently died because of this mentality. Seriously... do you not see where that might cross the line?

Guess you didn't read my first post with the spare the rod spoil the child, because i mentioned in there that i thought he was going to excess. I made that very clear. You again assumed i agreed with him even after you read what I wrote. You seem to have a habit of assuming things into what people write.

ewent: Interesting point of view. Anyway, violence provokes violence. When you hit a kid, you are telling him/her that violence can resolve conflict. They will grow up believing that.

I'd also like to point out it's called a PROVERB - a proverbial truism must be applied in context.

Ewent makes a good point. Because many Christians seem to feel the Bible fell from the sky by God's command, that we must take it as absolute literal truth.

Anyone who reads the Bible knows what folly that would be though, since much of it is embedded deeply in cultural context of the time (such as stoning women to death).

The passage may very well refer to using a switch to discipline your children, but in a broader sense (as all PROVERBS are supposed to apply) it does not necessarily mean that you must always beat your children with a switch..... it simply means 'discipline your children' in a modern context. "Discipline" may have very well meant "Beating" 2000 years ago, but I think we've grown up a little since then? If you're inclined to disagree - I can suggest a few lovely nations that follow your line of thinking.....

Yes I am, because I used the phrase and I do not believe it came from the bible.

Let me add another assumption: you're lying.

Guess you didn't read my first post with the spare the rod spoil the child, because i mentioned in there that i thought he was going to excess.

I did - but you took the argument to me.... so unless you were arguing with a strawman, I assumed you were arguing with my stance against beating children.

@Ewent

There are many double standards when it comes to raising children and there parents.

Do adults get to operate circular saws? Should children?

Do adults get to drive cars? Should children?

Do adults get to drink alcohol? Should children?

Do adults pay bills and taxes? Should children?

The list goes on.

Oh but, spanking is different?... It is different, it's an effective tool to help children become law abiding and respectful citizens in a society that enforces laws. Laws that if broken... can lead to alot worse things than a spanking.

Take care again.

@LMarcT -

Yep, love those Chiefs. Just when you think they know where they're going they wander off the trail again. It was a great day to be at Arroehead though, 65 and sunny.

Common sense, self restraint are keys, and I whole-heartedly agree with the concept of a consistant message. Children, when they are old enough to understand can also benifit from knowing "why" and "why not".

ewent says:

People who advocate physical punishment take every delight in beating children. Why? Simple. Religious fanatics tend to be hugely sexually repressed after being told how bad sexuality is.

Thanks for giving me a reason to laugh this morning! You seem drawn to taking swipes at people who are religious. It's a very regular subject for you, almost like an uncontrollable compulsion. Hmmmmm.......

SabotandHeat...My post a little too close to hitting a target? Not only do I have 2 grown children I never had to beat or abuse, I also worked with 150 children a year, boys and girls, when I owned a dance studio, taught at Rutgers part-time and volunteered at an abused women and children's center.

Men who abuse their children are usually always verbally or physically abusive to their wives. Their need to control every iota of the world around them is why they feel they are sooooo superior to the female gender and children.

My parents didn't have to spank me. YOu obviously feel instilling fear in a child is a method of discipline. Why not just tell they ghost stories to scare the life of them if fear is the only mechanism by which you can discipline?

Sorry, I don't agree. I was able to keep control of a class full of young children as young as age 2 in the classes I taught. That you feel it's necessary to "spank" your children to "teach" them, is a clear sign of inability to teach children to discipline themselves.

What exactly is the connection to your Christianity (I'm Catholic by the way and we were never taught to use physical force on our children) and spanking your children?

Do you intend to spank them when they are 17 too? If spanking is the only way to communicate your authority, it's little better than parental warfare.

Ask any abused child what happened when Big Daddy got into one of his "spanking" sessions. Suddenly the raisins in his jeans grew ten sizes.

By the way, some very rich, pretty Christian, pretty deviant men like women to "spank" them. Is that discipline too?

Find me a religious nut job who isn't sexually repressed from years of being told how terrible sex is and that's all the proof you need. All those Cable TV reverends aren't fooling anyone with their Hallejuah Praise The Lord And Pass Out the Discipline BS. Most are recovering gamblers, alcoholics and wife batterers now using the Bible to cover years of their inequities. Accent on the word "inequities".

@SabotAndHeat

children don't always respond to a 'nose in the wal'l or being 'sent to time out'.

Actually, yes, they do. But time outs have to be applied consistently, calmly and appropriately.

The simplest method for introducing a time out is in fact to time out yourself rather than your child. Simply withdraw to another room and refuse to come out until the child performs some compliant act. It doesn't need to be dramatic - going to their own room and sitting down on their own bed is sufficient.

When they comply, give it a few seconds then go speak calmly with them until their emotions steady. Then explain why the time out was necessary and that you'll expect them to go to time out themselves in future. Extract a promise to do so.

You may need to repeat this once or twice, but very quickly the child will respond appropriately to a time out. Don't count to a time-out - that just prolongs bad behaviour - instead make it an immediate command. And don't leave them timed out for more than a few minutes - 2 or 3 is usually plenty.

As you build trust over a period of months, more and more often you'll find the actual threat of a time out is sufficient to correct a behaviour. After a few years of this they should be able to respond to tone of voice without you needing to do very much else at all.

If you've been spanking your children as a form of discipline, try sitting down with them and calmly discuss it. Offer to use a time out system instead. Almost always they're willing to use it to avoid your beatings. And then transition to it explicitly and systematically.

Children are remarkably rational at heart - they simply lack control of their impulses and emotions. A time out system, consistently applied, enables them to learn that control. Once they learn it, their self-discipline is much more effective than your external discipline.

There must be a difference in terminology between spanking and corporal punishment , spanking as a way to discipline is good , however parents should follow certain rules when they chose this way to teach or reprehend their child, we all are animals to a certain levels and kids at early years don't understand reasons.

Anyone who has ever been spanked hears the same kind of sound of physical exertion coming from the spanker as when the spanker gets jiggy with the old lady or old man. All that huffing and puffing while "spanking" a child isn't the same kind of huffing and puffing in the bedroom?

Many so-called extremist religious fanatics use the Bible to validate what they know on judgment day they will have to answer for.

Just calling yourselves parents doesn't give you the rights to do what you can't do to a stranger. This is the same argument husbands have used: "their wives made them lose control".

One flimsy ass pathetic excuse for lack of self-control isn't going to validate Neanderthal behavior.

@NanoBioMed

Unfortunately, violence can solve conflicts. This is why our military is necessary to defend against external aggressors. If someone wants to pin you to the ground and rape you would you not fight back? Would that not to solve the conflict of interests between you and the attacker?

Violence is built into nature and the universe. The claim that violence is some type of strange anomaly restricted to humans is completely ignorant of the facts.

Humans have the ability to reason before using violence... that's what makes us different. It doesn't make violence a non-option.

@ewent,

By the way, some very rich, pretty Christian, pretty deviant men like women to "spank" them. Is that discipline too?

Wealth and christianity have no particular correlation with sexual kinks. But so long as sex is consensual, who are you to judge someone else's turn-ons? Many people of both sexes like a spanking. And many people of both sexes like to spank. So long as these people are spanking each other consensually, and not spanking children or hurting anyone's feelings, why is it your concern?

Must be a slow news day. We are just rehashing the same story/topics of last week and it is only Monday.

Come on guys, there just has to be another Bear attack, shark attack, or man falling into a sewer story by now.

@I'm God

I'll reiterate... "children don't always respond to a 'nose in the wall' or being 'sent to time out'." 

I didnt say it never works. I use those tools all the time.

"The simplest method for introducing a time out is in fact to time out yourself rather than your child. Simply withdraw to another room and refuse to come out until the child performs some compliant act." - Your statement

Absurd.

Unfortunately, that girl would've died whether the parents owned that book or not. The parents were mean-spirited, unforgiving people who did not have the child's best interest in mind.

She didn't die from spanking. She died from neglect, malnutrition, hypothermia- abuse.

The book is a straw man and a whipping boy for people who are rightfully angry about the horrible treatment of a child. That anger should be directly squarely at the parents.

If this child was never spanked, she would still be dead. Let's not make arguments where there are none.

@SabotAndHeat,

You've run a bit far from the topic but let's pursue this a little.

Unfortunately, violence can solve conflicts. This is why our military is necessary to defend against external aggressors.

Sometimes there is no choice but to use violence. However your military has a horrible record of inflicting violence upon innocent civilians on the pretext of propaganda. Even when there has been external aggression you've proved incapable of responding rationally to it. Your national violence has not solved conflicts, but has instead damaged millions of innocent lives in Vietnam, South America and the Middle East.

You may point at the defeat of the Nazis in WW2 as an example of your military successes. But WW2 ended with your atomic bombing that caused the horrific deaths of millions of innocent Japanese civilians, a wholly unnecessary atrocity whose only purpose was political.

If someone wants to pin you to the ground and rape you would you not fight back? Would that not to solve the conflict of interests between you and the attacker?

When was the last time your child attempted to pin you to the ground and rape you? Are you suggesting that children who are not violently disciplined become rapists? Or what?

I'mGod....Is sex consensual when a parent is getting off beating their kid? Who consented? Other than the parent? That's who I am to tell you that when I volunteered at an abused women and children's center for 2 years....90% of the abuse came from men who had no self-control much less self-discipline.

That's the biggest argument against corporal punishment. It doesn't teach self-control or self-discipline. It teaches the principle that if you are bigger you get to control others.

Sorry, doesn't work for me. I'm 4'10 and there isn't a man or woman I'm afraid of. That's not big talk. It's just having the smarts to refuse to allow anyone else to control me in any way, shape or form. I can do that well enough on my own.

The longer I worked with children the easier it was to spot bad parenting. Children who are bullied by parents follow that example. Parents have no right to get off their sexual frustrations when what they are supposed to be doing is disciplining their kids.

It's not my business if people enjoy spanking each other. I used that as an example. My guess is that deviation comes from having to learn to enjoy spankings handed out at a very early age.

Ewent,
Always love to see what you will write, And as usual I agree with you. This guy is just one more Christian with no qualifications giving out advice that is cruel and wrong. How can people be so damn dumb as to listen to his advice?

Absurd.

The time out method works well for parents who try it. If you have any evidence to the contrary, simply present it so we can discuss it.

@I'm God

You remind me a bit of the dog whisperer.

The setting...a yuppie couple that just can't seem to control that pooch. In walks the dog whisperer. Every one watching the show thinks he's disciplining the dog with those jabs. What he's really doing is providing a dominate presence in a home where the male has forgotten how to be a man.

It's silly to assume that just because I spank my children that I don't sit down and speak to them. I also have not forgotten how to be a man, but thanks anyway.

Unfortunately, the idea that 'your idea is absurd' requires as much evidence to disprove as it did for you to prove... which was no evidence at all.

Good conversation though. To each his own.

SabotandHeat...Nose in the wall and time outs don't work either. The child just learns to accept that just like the mother of that judge's daughter who told her 16 year old to "take it like a woman" while a big brawny man was beating her with a belt.

If parents took the time and thought out the kind of discipline the child would most likely respond to instead of jumping off the deep end with something in their hand (another sexual symbolism for child abusers by the way), they'd realize that discipline is supposed to teach the child self-discipline and not power freak control games.

Spanking, or any other form of corporal punishment, is about as effective as bloodletting was in the Dark ages!

Wow, what a volatile subject. My Dad used a belt on me, but only once in anger and I remember that episode to this day. It was very different when it was done in anger. I am well-behaved, I know how to act in society, and I am outgoing. I am not sullen or rebellious or any of the other things people seem to think are characteristics caused by spanking.

I fully intended to spank my children, but had an episode with disciplining one of my nephews that scared me off of it. I was too young, and too angry, and felt incredible guilt even though there was no physical harm done. It was more that I was capable of striking in anger that scared me away from spanking. When I had my two children, I stayed away from that sort of punishment, watched all sorts of popular shows like SuperNanny that discouraged spanking and tried my best. Timeouts and other methods just don't work reliably.

I started using very light spanking with my two kids about a year ago, and the difference is amazing. I use only my hand, and shower them with love and patience as I explain to them why I spanked them. My hand stings for longer than their bottoms do. The fact is, since I started, it is rarely an issue now. And to say that spanking causes violence, I don't understand. My kids were more violent with each other before, when I answered violence (hitting, pinching) with timeouts. Spankings work much better to curb that behavior in my experience.

For those of you who act like every spanking is abuse, you are not being open-minded. If you can manage your children without spanking, more power to you. But I've come across a LOT of children who are unruly, aggressive, and rude..and never had a hand touch their bottoms. My children love me, absolutely know that I love them, have high self-esteem, are very outgoing, and most importantly, have more respect for their mother than ever. There is no way that someone could watch me spank my kids and think it's abuse. There is more time spent on every hug and kiss than on the spanking.

give me a break. All this talk about poor little susie or poor little johnny. That is what is wrong with kids today. They're rude and nasty cause parents are too afraid to touch them for fear of losing their kids or getting into trouble and the kids know it. Spank not beat the little bastirds and set them straight. Geez take off the kid gloves and teach them they're goin to be responsible for their own actions. Good example is Lindsey Lohan

@ewent,

By definition children are incapable of giving consent to sex. Consensual sex can only occur between adults.

In some cases you're no doubt correct to think that childhood spankings lead to adult sexual interest in similar activities. But sexual proclivities are extremely irrational and variable, including various genetic and cultural influences beyond childhood experiences.

What childhood violence does correlate with, consistently, is adult violence. Indeed the entire Nazi movement in Germany last century has been attributed to violent child-rearing practices in Germany at the turn of the 20th century.

by the way.. I hate to say this because I love my mom, but although she never spanked me, I had more esteem issues from her because she became cold and distant when I misbehaved. My Dad spanked me, but was warm and didn't make me feel like he didn't love me when he disciplined me. I know my mom thinks he was the worst of the two (later as I grew up he became distant and removed himself from our family) but in my early childhood, I felt more loved by him than by her. I think spanking done the right way is part of parenting.

When you hit a kid, you are telling him/her that violence can resolve conflict. They will grow up believing that.

Nanobiomed,

Violence can absolutely solve conflicts. I don't hit my kids, and I have instructed my children, both physically and mentally, that no one else is to lay hands on them either.

If they are pushed or struck by another individual, they have been taught to solve the conflict. With violence if necessary.

Goes to show that because someone uses a Fraze like spare the rod spoil the child, there is always someone who speculates your a christian

Or someone who never got their GED.

Retired Navy Senior Chief -Shuklack, try Proverbs 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.

To expand on this- 'the rod' refers to a shepherd's rod. The shepherd doesn't use the rod to beat his sheep, he uses it to gently guide them. Translation: guide you children and teach them to do right, don't let them go wild and do whatever they want.

ewent -Anyone who has ever been spanked hears the same kind of sound of physical exertion coming from the spanker as when the spanker gets jiggy with the old lady or old man.

If someone actually is exerting themselves to spank a child, they're doing it way too hard.

For the record, I was spanked as a child occasionally. It was never hard enough to leave any sort of a mark or lasting pain. I do spank occasionally, usually it's if the child is attempting something dangerous, or for my older son, if timeouts and discussion hasn't worked. My toddler gets a smack on the hand, (or tap on the mouth for biting), and my preschooler will get a swat on the behind. You should never ever leave a mark on a child, or completely withhold food (losing dessert privileges if they don't eat a reasonable amount of dinner is a different story).

@Ewent

You feel comfortable wrapping anyone who disagrees with you into some strange little sexual repression bubble.

Your doing exactly what the military does to enable soldiers to kill easier... your taking my humanity away by pinning all these "obviously terrible traits" on me.

You don't know me or my houshold. But if it makes it easier for you to feel I beat my wife and dominate my children for pleasure...then sleep well tonight, the world is a very simple place for you as long as everything fits into your pre-conceaved notions.

I need to go home and step on my spouses neck now. Take care.

brenda1964 (and everyone else that has defended spanking with anecdotes):

Anecodotal stories about how bad your non-spanking friends' children are or how good your spanked children are have absolutely no value whatsoever. Seriously, their evidential value is, literally, ZERO.

The reason is simple. You have absolutely NO WAY of knowing how a spanked child would have turned out in a non-spanking household and you have NO WAY of knowing how a non-spanked child would have turned out if he or she had been spanked.

There are children that are spanked that turn out very badly. There are children that are spanked that turn out very well.

There are children that are never spanked that turn out very badly. There are children that are never spanked that turn out very well.

The only way to really get an idea of whether spanking is helpful or not is to look at large numbers of children with careful methodology to control for other variables. This has been done many times and it turns out that, on the average, children that are spanked turn out WORSE than children that are never spanked.

Even if you ignore that, it is patently absurd to suggest that spanking is the ONLY way to teach children to behave. If a child is so ill-behaved that physical pain is the only solution, then something else is drastically wrong with the child and THAT is what needs to be addressed.

What many parents don't seem to understand is that you don't teach proper behavior overnight. Children learn how to behave through the use of CONSISTENT discipline. You can't just take toys away a few times and then conclude, after a month or two, that it won't work.

Yes, you can hit a child and they'll probably stop the undesirable behavior very quickly but do you REALLY want a child to do something only because someone is going to hit them otherwise? It's far better to show patience and consistency and teach the child the real reasons for doing something (or not doing something). A child that UNDERSTANDS will -- eventually -- internalize the reasons and learn to do the right thing even when no one is looking. A child that behaves only to avoid getting hit will learn that anything goes as long as you can be sure you won't get caught.

For that matter, why do so many people think that negative reinforcement is the only way to teach? And don't you DARE tell me that rewarding good behavior is "bribery". If you think that, you need to get a dictionary and learn the meaning of that word. Rewarding a child for a desired behavior is a proven technique. If the rewards are faded properly, the child will NOT end up depending on the reward.

It's far more healthy to teach a child that responsible behavior can bring rewards. That's the way adult life works.

.. and omg, I am not into spanking nor am I violent, and I was spanked as a child. What is wrong with some of these posters? There is a world of difference between being ABUSED and BEATEN and getting a spanking as a child. Wow. Children were spanked on a regular basis during my generation, my parents' generation, and my grandparents' generation. You would think the whole world population was made up of sexual deviants and violent criminals and sullen rebellious malcontents.

There is a huge difference between beating a child and a smack on the hands when they grab at something they are not allowed to touch... or a swat on the bottom for running away. My parents smacked us.. never would I have called it a beating... my mother even (horror) slapped my face for rolling my eyes at her.. tell you this.. didn't do it again! (least not while she was looking) We sat in the bathroom with soap in our mouths for 10min max for saying "bad" words... we were ready for this forced to eat the food in front of us otherwise we sat at the table till bedtime then went to bed with nothing.

I'm god... I tried time out with my son.. doesn't work well for us unless I sit on him to keep him in place :) we have other menthods that do not include beating.

This story is laughable. They site 3 deaths out of a possible 670,000. Probably a lot more than 670,000 if you figure in the amount of people lending the book out. I would think if we took a sampling of the US population overall we would find that the death rate, attributed to abuse, would be much higher in the US population as a whole than the people who read this book.

Just another attempt to link a tragedy to Christianity by the NY Times where no link exists. You people do know that the individuals that did this were sick? If you blame this book on the children's death than you can also blame teen suicide on heavy metal music.

WHile I am no longer a Christian/Abraham follower I do still know the Bible.

Proverbs 23: 13-14.

"Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. If you beat him with the rod you will save his soul from Sheol.”

@Ewent

P.S.

It's strange that your trying to dominate my opinion with accusations of sexual perversions. Can you not just understand your not in control of everyone else and not everyone will roll over and take it up the 'yang' from your ideas?

I have his book and he does not promote abuse. Anyone can take it too far. I find it odd that all three deaths in the story were of adopted children.....

I couldn't help but notice that myself. How is it that the state social workers and adoption agencies can simply drop these children into abusive homes and simply never do follow up visits with these children to evaluate the living conditions they are under. In the majority of adoptions such as these three, not only do the children get dumped into these homes but the parents make a living off the states in the form of assistances and tax write offs and that is the only reason many people take them in. They become slaves for these rotten families and highly abused. This has been happening for decades. In many states, the children are taken out of the homes for something as small as verbal abuse and put into these slave pens and tortured if they do anything out of line period.

@SabotAndHeat,

This paper links to quite a lot of studies on spanking vs time-outs. Quoting it:

Parents who spank their children are more likely to use other unacceptable forms of corporal punishment.²¹ The more children are spanked, the more anger they report as adults, the more likely they are to spank their own children, the more likely they are to approve of hitting a spouse, and the more marital conflict they experience as adults.²⁰ Spanking has been associated with higher rates of physical aggression, more substance abuse, and increased risk of crime and violence²² when used with older children and adolescents.

@Sven, @Junicon, @JStevens

Thank you for introducing a little simple logic here.

I'mGod...My point is that parents do not need to exert themselves physically to discipline their children. I refused to do that with my 2 because in the deepest recesses of my mind lay a fear they'd only see how inadequate my intelligence was.

I was raised in a mostly male family and raised 2 sons myself. Being a woman, something in male genes has a kneejerk reaction to females in authority. Or, at least, that's how it seems to me. That may have been okay in former eras.

Today's women are far too educated to take second place even to raising their kids. With all that education, it's unnecessary not to strain the brain to find better methods of discipline than those most predictable.

If there's one thing I know about raising sons, it's that no woman can afford predictability. Do that and nothing you ever do from that point on is taken seriously.

Everyone who says “… and my kids turned out the best…” remember, they are your kids. It doesn’t mean that everyone in your neighborhood shares your opinion.

And every specialist who thinks that using belt is an abuse; just remember one thing - using your hand you automatically make yourself an amateur chiropractor. You wouldn’t want some shady chiropractor do any work on your spine in controlled environment, why do you think it’s ok to put your child’s spine in the same situation in uncontrolled environment?

Talking about the double standards….

@ Junicon, how about anecdotal evidence within the same household, before spanking was introduced and after. I won't disagree with you that consistent alternative discipline and reward systems are very effective and spanking should never be done if it is not needed. It can indeed be the lazy way of disciplining. I just think you're ignoring that a small amount of spanking done the right way can also be effective. Sure, I believe that on average, spanked children do fare worse in some areas, because honestly I believe the average parent is lazy today and probably isn't properly using other techniques before giving a spanking.

But I disagree that the average represents the whole, and so you can't apply a general "abusive and stupid" label to every parent who spanks her child. I have seen abusive, stupid, and lazy parents who don't spank. A little discipline with love goes a long way in rearing a happy child in my experience. Sometimes that discipline includes spanking, when needed, and sometimes it doesn't. Some children are so agreeable they never need know what a spanking even is.

And in the end, I don't think you can discount everyone's personal experience in favor of your own beliefs and be truly considering the problem. I'm not judging other people's children or even my own as much as I'm judging myself. Of all the things I know about myself, I know I was loved as a child and I was spanked. I am not deviant, or depressed, or violent, nor do I suffer from poor self-esteem.

SabotAndHeat: Exactly. If someone starts using violence, he or she will face my retaliation with nuclear power. This is my point. Violence provokes violence. You will start an endless loop of violence so don’t even think about it.

I'm God, don't know what country you're from(obviously not this one) but, we don't need you in this one. We got enough people.

(Most) People on here have no common sense or ability to think rationally. God, post #1.52, is one of them. SabotAndHeat was simply trying to show how "violence"(discipline) can resolve issues. Because a religous, don't want to label him to harshly, I'll just say "person", writes a book on how to discipline your kids and a couple of bad parents can't use their better judgement on what' between the covers should not be the author's problem. There are many ways to discipline kids without raising a hand. Some work, some don't. I was "spanked" as a child and remember vividly what was done to get it and what was done because of it. We have a three year old and so far timeouts and taking toys away has worked pretty well and I don't know if a "spanking" will have to be used over the next few years or not. But if it is, common sense and better judgement will be used and anger will be left out the equation. I will not have a 10 year old talk to me like I see other kids talk to their parents/grandparents in public.

@I'm God

Excellent information.

My oldest boy (8) takes my kisses, Moms kisses and his little brothers kisses and grabs them off of his head and places them in his heart (acts it out)... every single time.

My youngest (4) attempts to give us all 100 kisses each day.

My youngest wants to be a firefighter so he can help people who are going to get hurt.

My oldest wants to be on the first manned flight to Mars.

My oldest is very resistant to fighting back against bullies in school. Which makes me proud that he is still innocent. A dolphin in a pool of sharks.

Each and everytime I discipline my children, when it's complete I hug them and follow up with and "I love you" so that they always know.

We get complimented everywhere we go about how nice and polite our boys are...who open doors for elders and their mother. Oh...they also say "Yes sir" and "Yes ma'am" to their parents and all adults.

There is my proof, no national survey, no communal input...just time and effort and love.

Without a doubt I feel that abusing a child is absolutely wrong. That said, there are times when a swat on the rear is appropriate as a form of disciplining a child. There is a big difference between an appropriate spanking and beating a child. The problem is that everyone seems to want to take things to the extremes. I do not condone ever hitting a child in the face or hitting them with any implement, but a swat on the rear with an open hand is not child abuse. I have seen the results of parents who raised their kids without ever spanking them, relying on time outs as punishment. The kids are out of control, mouth off to their parents in public, and generally have no respect for anyone other than themselves, and even that is sometimes lacking. A spanking, or any punishment for that matter should always be followed by a conversation with the child so that they understand what they did wrong and why they were punished. Without that understanding of the reason for the punishment, the punishment does no good. The child needs to know what led to the punishment so that they know what not to do in the future. Too many kids today are completely out of control. They have no respect for their parents, authority, or anyone else. You see kids throwing tantrums in public, screaming at their parents, demanding that they get what they want right now. I hear them using language to talk to their parents that would have gotten me grounded for a month and my mouth washed out with soap if I had ever dared to speak to one of my parents that way. And yes, I see nothing wrong with taking a bar of good old Ivory soap and giving a kid a taste of it by putting some on their tongue to get the point across that foul language is not acceptable. It tastes terrible and definitely gets the point across while doing no harm to the child. Time outs just do not work, particularly when parents are sending the kids to their rooms where they have plenty of things to do to amuse themselves. This is not a punishment that is going to get a point across the anyone. For a punishment to work, it must be an unpleasant experience. It should not be abusive, but it should be something that the child does not want to repeat or it is pointless.

my mother even (horror) slapped my face for rolling my eyes at her.. tell you this.. didn't do it again! (least not while she was looking) We sat in the bathroom with soap in our mouths for 10min max for saying "bad" words... we were ready for this forced to eat the food in front of us otherwise we sat at the table till bedtime then went to bed with nothing

Lyndanne,

I'm sorry. No child should have to endure this type of behavior from a parent. Forcing children to eat things they abhor and putting soap in their mouths is simply ignorant. I'm sure your mother relished the control she had over you.

I hope you haven't perpetuated this.

you people never do anything to your brats when they do something wrong. that is why the country is crawling with rudeand nasty kids. Beath the little bastirds.

@NanoBioMed

Violence does not always beget violence. It's why (the most vile and hated) Jesus taught us to turn the other cheek. We have a choice...it's not automatic. But, it's also an option.

Violence is also done out of hatred and/or fear.

I do not hate my children, but I do fear they will grow up and throw their lives away because I failed to show them consequence of action.

ewent: You are absolutely right about self-discipline. Discipline comes from reasoning while self-discipline comes from self-reasoning. You help you kids reason in the beginning so they can reason for themselves later in their lives.

Glen davis...it appears you where beaten often....lotta good that did huh ?

I hate to say this because I love my mom, but although she never spanked me, I had more esteem issues from her because she became cold and distant when I misbehaved. My Dad spanked me, but was warm and didn't make me feel like he didn't love me when he disciplined me. I know my mom thinks he was the worst of the two (later as I grew up he became distant and removed himself from our family) but in my early childhood, I felt more loved by him than by her. I think spanking done the right way is part of parenting.

I think jstevens said everything I was going to say. Even with similar issues as quoted above.

Huge difference between a tap on the rear and beatings. I felt far more abused by my mother [mentally/emotionally].

SabotandHeat...I'm not anti-religion. I am anti-religious fanatics who try to impose their values on the entire country. No thanks. I'm Catholic. I won't convert you if you won't try to insist yours is the only Christian religion on the planet. Intelligent people know not to argue religion.

In case you missed it, every church leader has had some "enlightened conversion" when they "got religion". BS. What they got was a little too close to the flame of their own inability to control themselves. They always run to "get religion" the minute they suffer massive guilt over some wayward transgression or other.

Sexual repression by religions is why Jim Jones, David Koresh, Elijah Mohammed, priests and rabbis all hide their illicit sexual affairs or else dominate female or child parishoners in a way that forces them to submit to men who believe they are God.

If you are trying to impress upon us how religion doesn't have a dark side, please read the history of any religion you choose. All have had male demi-gods women were just supposed to submit to or by whom children were soundly abused. Truth hurts doesn't it?

@Ewent

Pretty sure you mentioned religion first. Please stop trying to put words in my mouth. I never said religion didnt have a dark side. Had I wished to "impress" that I would have said something like "religion doesnt have a dark side."

No it does not hurt.

To everyone,

Great conversation all.

Time to head out.

Take care.

stevo 1

Glen davis...it appears you where beaten often....lotta good that did huh ?

bite me spoiled breeder

If you do not like children do not put yourself in a position where you are going to have to deal with them.

IF … you were an adult, had made preparations, and knew the amount of patients it would take for 6 solid years in a row minimum for your child to have manners they would be mimicking your adult mature manners in public, with out any beatings … IF.

The United States is now a full four generations into immature children raising their children as immaturely or less as they were raised.

You can see the results at any restaurant were children are present, from McDonald’s to very expensive restaurants, anywhere in public.

Ill-mannered loud, screaming, snot nosed, clumsy, dirty handed, whining, demanding, unkempt children accompanied by their zombie faced stupefied non-parents who cannot understand that they are now out in public.

You are not a parent, and have done nothing positive in the life of this child who is now on everyone’s last nerve.

Its too late, your time has expired, your child is now be better off raising its self than to have you the ouhff flabbing over to hit it in public so the two of you can have all the public attention a ugly parent and its ugly child can have while it screams in the drama.

Then leave the entire area a pig site of food spread all over the floor in every direction.

I do not want to see you beat your child with a hose, I want to beat you… with the chair you’re a%$ is seating on, then the table, until you are no longer able to be near or ever again have any children ever. Get it. You are not a parent, you are an abomination.

So much of the school systems over use of ADHD drugs on children is because of the behavioral problems associated with trying to teach groups of children who simply have no manners.

The children have no manners because their non-parents have no manners to teach them; neither do their 30 year old grand non-parents, and 55 year old great, great grand non-parents.

I cannot see an answerer to this in a free society.

This society no longer has the will to enforce cultural boundaries, everyday another child predator is found out, sick minded evil in church’s, schools, sport’s, at the homes, including their own perverted-parents.

Dogs raise their young better than this.

Wow, if you think that parents that spank their children are doing it because of sexual frustration then I'd say you are sick in the head. I bet you don't have a good sex life... I bet you don't even have sex that often...

I agree with you that many times parents that spank are angry. I agree with you that parents need to have self control.

What is so hypocritical about people like you is that, while you preach no violence, you attend a hockey game or a football game. In addition, you buy extreme video games for your kids. One more, one night a week you enjoy watching extreme fighting on TV.

Hypocrite!

Brenda...You posted that children are the way they are today because you think they are not disciplined? Take a look around you my dear. These kids live in tiny little microcosms, rarely breathe fresh air or get much exercise and are shipped off to daycare a month after they are born. But you think they also need spanking added to that?

Why on earth do people have kids if they have no intentions of investing quality time with them? Sorry, darlin...I worked with 150 kids a year and could easily spot the ones being soundly neglected by the McMommies and McDaddies who put owning their McMansion before their children's welfare.

How many generations of kids is it now who have no clue what spending a full week at home at age 2 have passed? These toddlers are rousted out of bed at 5 AM, shipped off to daycare until 6 PM and then it's supper and bed?

Give me a break. Today's children get the wrong kind of attention. Cell phones at age 5? Cheerleading school at age 3? karate at age 5? soccer at age 4? Of course, we older parents aren't supposed to figure out the real reasons for parents pushing kids into these activities when they should be playing in their backyards. Oh...can't do that either...McDaddy spent 6 figure for that emerald lawn.

There was a time when kids learned to climb trees, discover a turtle in a local brook, gathered in backyards or played street hockey. Now? Oh no....not good enough for these trophy kids...gotta make sure it costs big bucks for them to have fun or else it's not good enough. No...money doesn't raise children. Parents do. Parents who are willing to accept the job of parenting for as long as it takes.

Today's kids aren't allowed to even have unplanned kid activities. Now it's "Play Dates". Give me a break. If life has to be that structured, it's little wonder today's kids are overweight, snarky and lack self-control.

The Singer...Got all that venting out now? Mt. Vesuvious finished with the eruption? Of course, I have no intentions of dignifying your remarks about my sex life. Anymore than I'd want to hear about yours.

May I inquire as to why you'd expect ANYONE to preach violence? This isn't the Neanderthal Era is it? Football is fine for adults. It isn't fine for children. Enough kids have had massive injuries in their most formative years because of idiot volunteer coaches encouraging them to crush, kill, destroy. All that macho male BS isn't what real men are about.

Yes..I love the Chicago Bears. Always have. These are trained professionals with trained professional coaches who CHOSE their careers, not children who have no choices. I never allowed my sons to have any of those violent games. I did allow them to defend themselves when it was necessary. No...I was not about to hand over the only two human beings on the planet who mean the most to me to a warmongering president with more military industrialist profiteers than the entire US military.

As for extreme fighting on TV, it should be banned. Sorry, but that kind of buckets and buckets of blood and gore can only appeal to the most unintelligent and for me that goes for the so-called horror movies of today.

From your post sounds like a promotion for a return to the days of Roman arenas where humans were killed for sport. Show me the difference between that and extreme fighting....if you dare.

That rubber hose, belt... I became immune to those. Switches... I always chose the thickest, most flexible one in the field. I did this to save myself from having to go out and cut a new one for my dad. He seemed to become infuriated if they could not stand up to the task. Eventually he cut off about three feet from the bottom of a cars whip antennae. I have to admit that even my immunity to pain couldn't withstand the pain that inflicted on me. The daily beatings were a part of my life. In most cases they started out with the proverbial, "just so you don't forget". The beatings sometimes lasted for hours. My mom was much more vicious than my dad even though he was doing the actual beatings. With her I started out at two months of age with a 16 penny nail driven completely into the top of my head. All in all, it wasn't the beatings that I was scared of... it was the other things!

Growing up I knew this wasn't normal nor typical. I do not spank my children. I do none of the other things that actually did terrify me. I talk to them. I corner them. I take away the things I bought them because it was something they always wanted. But mostly I talk to them.

No kidding, this is a volatile thread! And yeah, it would help if some of you went back to English class, because your spelling needs help. It's hard to follow.

There is NO EXCUSE WHATSOEVER for abuse. If you have a little tyrant that simply will not respond to any form of regular discipline, then get help. That's what reform school is for. I find it hard to believe that there are kids out there that simply won't respond to ANY form of discipline at all.

That having been said, I do not believe a single swift swat on the butt, with a bare hand, is abuse. There are some kids that will not respond to kinder discipline, like time outs or having something taken away, but a swat shows you are serious. It should NEVER be done with an inanimate object. It should only be done with the hand, and if you hit hard enough for your hand to hurt, you've hit too hard. And spanking should never be used on a kid that is too young to understand limits. A 6-month old? That is just sick.

Oh, and for the record? I was spanked as a kid. As were my brothers. None of us has been to jail, or assaulted anyone, or beats our own kids. It can be a useful tool, WHEN USED PROPERLY.

Brenda1964 – I think we’ve seen a serious decline in children’s behavior due to the adults who are setting the example. The problem with corporal punishment is people who practice it are actually trying to control their children’s behavior and actions. The reality is when that child steps out into the real world they will be in control of their behavior and actions. Wouldn’t a responsible parent want to know how their child will act prior to leaving home. Do you really want to send a submissive or aggressive child into the world or would you prefer to send one who has been taught right from wrong, not because of the negative consequences of doing wrong, but because doing the right thing IS right and not for rewards. My children are valuable and I would not want to harm them physically or emotionally. By showing them compassion, empathy, and love, I hope that they will in turn show these feelings to others. As you know, discipline does not have to be physical to be effective. The thing I take issue with is “Where as now when I drive down the road, kids will get in front of my car and almost dare me to hit them. The lack of respect is overwhelming in today's society and I think its all due to the fact that we went away from corporal punishment in the schools and homes.” When I drive down the road and kids are walking in front of me I don’t think they are daring me to hit them, they have no clue if I am in a rush or not. I think, they are just being kids and taking their time. I agree, the lack of respect is overwhelming, we expect children to be respectful of us and yet you think kids are daring you to hit them with your car. Yup, the lack of mutual respect is overwhelming.

ewent,

You need therapy to get over whatever abuse you are repressing from your childhood with your Leftist, progressive, Feminist mantra you worship with. The fact that you claim to be "Catholic" explains your hated of Christians, and your projection of YOUR sexual perversions and hangups on others. I have seen your supposed "angle" children and they are anything but. You are against spanking because you are exactly the type of parent that CAN'T administer it WITHOUT BEING ABUSIVE. YOU THUS PROJECT THAT ONTO everyone else, think because YOU are superior to everyone else, if YOU CAN'T DO IT, NO CAN. You CAN'T discipline without anger, so no one can.

You are so ENVIOUS of those that have what you don't, so you project your negative feelings about yourself onto them in a vain attempt to make yourself morally superior. Your angry defensive diatribe responses to everyone only betray that clearly.

You are the archetype of the self-righteous hypocrite, spouting stereo-type after liberal stereo-type (i.e. McMommy, McDaddy, all traditional "Male" attributes = violent, Primitive, Brutish, Censorship controlled by YOU, YOU should decide what people watch on TV, Music they listen to, books they read, etc.) Only YOU know the "CORRECT" way to raise other people's children, and they are TOO STUPID to do it themselves.

It truly frightens me Ewent, that you are allowed anywhere near children with all your mental problems. So let me guess, you and your sons are prime supporters of your local OWS group, right? Peacefully throwing rock and bottles at Police, burning cars and building, destroying other people's property to "Speak" for the 99%??

Why on earth do people have kids if they have no intentions of investing quality time with them?

You did READ the article about all the parents that killed their adopted kids that were HOMESCHOOLING, right? Because beating and starving them after the homeschool session is spending more time with them than say.... A working mom and dad that sits and eats dinner with their kids, plays games, reads books, colors, bathes them every evening, and hugs and kisses them.

Don't make working parents out to be the monsters here.

Everyone who says “… and my kids turned out the best…” remember, they are your kids. It doesn’t mean that everyone in your neighborhood shares your opinion.

Amen to that. Our neighbor told us when we moved in that her son was a "great kid". Less than a year later after my husband asked him to not drive through our back yard and he got in trouble with his step dad, the "great kid" cut the power to our house during the night to pay us back. We sent a police officer to their house to confront him about it....when the officer came back to our house to let us know how it went...his first words...."That kid wasn't spanked enough as a child".

It is NEVER okay to hit a child as a form of discipline. (That includes swat, spank, slap, whip, etc.).

Use your hands and arms to hug, your voice to praise, and your loving example to guide.

Notice the recurring themes in these child abuse stories:

1.) Devoutely evangelical christian homes.

2.) Home schooled children.

3.) Strict interpretation of the bible.

4.) Extremist conservative puritanical Evangelical preacher.

5.) Children beaten and starved to death.

Why is anyone not surprised. Anytime there is home schooling (other than in extremely rural areas) you have to seriously question why the parents are hiding their children from the public.

It is just so much fun to hit hug a child when they are needing some attention. And it is so gratifying to hit snuggle with a child before bedtime. It makes me everyone so much happier.

If any citizen in our community or neighborhood were beaten with a belt by a neighbor, a friend, a husband, a sibling, schoolmate, or a teacher, with either a switch, a hand, a belt or any other object, we would all be OUTRAGED, ANGRY and out for blood. But when it comes to children, people (parents) think they have the right to wield any kind of discipline (abuse) that they see fit, regardless of the depth of the injuries against their child, whether they be physical or emotional. This is sickening!

If parents only know violence, there is no way they can truly teach (discipline) to their children. If parents are not equiped emotionally or psychologiclly, then they need HELP. If all they know is to physically punish, then they shouldn't be parents. Parents need to understand how to resolve conflict, and how to communicate with their children, rather than physically assault them.

I think it's OUTRAGEOUS that people think they can assault their child, and call it 'disicipline'. Discipline (which means TEACHING/INSTRUCTION) can come in many forms. It does not have to be the 'ROD'. It's usually the rod because it's the PARENTS that don't know any better way of instructing their children. SAD SAD SAD.

A fellow I know was telling me yesterday that he has never raised a hand to his 4 year old son. The boy is in head start. The other day he corrected the boy and told him not to do something. The boy went to the corner of the living room and began spanking himself.

Where do you suppose he learned that? My friend took the boy out of head start after asking him if he was hit at school. The kid said that, yes, he was spanked by the teacher.

Don't hit your kids and don't hit other people's kids.

How about this: I have 2 male cousins, 3 nephews, and my own son. I have either raised or babysat all of them. The ones that I didnt raise were NOT spanked (2 of them). So, we will start with them. They both smoke pot. They both had had sex by age 15. They both think that they can use and abuse. They both have dropped out.
Neither is even 18 yet. Both think that they will have everything provided for them.

The ones that I raised (and spanked): All are very respectful, help out when asked to, do well in school, stand up for themselves (not start crap and run to someone else for cover), respond when I tell them to do something, when I tell them NOT to do something, and are well rounded in general. They can think for themselves.

I also have 3 girls. I am still working on them, I only had one for a really long time, and she was pretty easy. It can be done, but first you have to get past the high pitch. If only they had a muffler, or something. :) Thats the hardest part of them. Then, just remember emotions control them a little more, and it breaks their heart when you get upset with them. I havent had to spank my girls hardly at all, once just to let them know what it is, and then a warning of it as a re-routing tool. So far it has worked fairly well. My oldest daughter is the easiest kid in the world, as is my son. Sometimes I am a nag, but they know that, so it works. I nag and talk and nag and talk. But, if they hear enough, it does sink in.

Point: Sometimes you need a spank to sink something in NOW (I spanked my son when he was three after I got me hit by a car (lightly), saving him from getting hit by a truck. He bolted out of my hand for the road. I grabbed him, looked him over, hugged him, cryed, fetched my 2 year old daughter, and took him to the car, spanked his butt after I told him why I was going to do it, and he never did it again), so that later they listen a little more closely (like, look both ways, and dont let go of moms hand EVER), if only to get out of another one. I say kids need to know that you mean business. Not control, you cannot control a kid. Just that THEY are responsible for their actions. Some kids only need a talk to achieve this, others need something solid. You play with fire, you will get burned (and Im not saying I would burn my kids, lol).

Amazing.....I can see on here why this country has such a bumper crop of little disrespectful jerks running around. Thanks a lot.

Grump, headstart should not be spanking kids. Your friend should report it. I worked there, and they only did constructive holds. That would only work about 2 out of every 5 times. I learned alot from there, but I also know that a spank only works if used correctly. They all get a warning first (my kids and nephews), then I implement whatever I deemed as the possible outcome for the behavior. Not everything deserves a spank, but some things do. One swat has the tendancy to make it known that it can and will happen again, just listen and we will be fine. There are not many things I use a spanking for, but a 4 or 5 year old that refuses to listen when you tell them something that could be life threatening or very harmful, needs to have something to think about besides a time out, if that hasnt worked. Its better than the loss of the foot and almost life my friend got when he was a kid because his dad told him 900 times not to play with the lawn mower. He should have been spanked the 2nd or 3rd time he turned it on and chased his sister with it. It might have made him think about the consequence a little more. I know that is the extreme, but some kids dont get it until they have something to remember by. A 4 or 5 year old only thinks of the here and now, so when its an important lesson, and they need to remember it, you need to pick the punishment wisely.

That said, there is a difference between spank and abuse, IMO.

wowed, I would suggest that spanking is not what made the difference and that you were able to teach your values and care for your kids in ways that made a tremendous difference.

I never hit or spanked my son and he and his wife have never hit or spanked my grandsons. They are both doing well, smart, considerate, helpful and all that great stuff. I don't find spanking to be necessary. There are other ways to teach them and it sounds like you did that, too.

As adults we have learned that we don't have to let any one hit us or hurt us. I think the same goes for kids.

Shucklack- seem to me that you put more stock in the bible then others do. Sounds like the problem is with you on your beliefs and not what others believe. You seem to want to push your beliefs on others. I feel sorry for you. I know that you and I seem to dominate the conversation. Lets talk more on the subject of beliefs. Sorry for the time in response, but i am usually on in the evening.

@ htdjpf - Nicely done in post #1.99.

@ dirp 101 -

That anti-religious anti-Christian rant is getting old. If you believe this occurs mostly or only in homes of Christians then you need to do some research - your bigotry is showing.

@664722,

I don't know or care what country you're from but kindly mind the CoH.

@SabotAndHeat,

Obviously your heart is in the right place. Having presented food for thought I'm likewise glad for the conversation. Blessings.

derpy, you, of all people telling others to mind their own business. Do you not see the irony in your statement?

Right about now I'd settle for a story of a man who while escaping from a bear hid in a sewer and was attacked by a shark in the sewer.

Grump, Yes, I have found other ways of dealing with certain things, but there are times when that one spanking needs to be accomplished. If you do it when it matters, before it is too late, it is an excellent reminder of what to expect when one refuses to do what they know is the right thing. Like I said, its more of a verbal reminder for the older bunch. My mother plays hell with my nephews when they dont want to listen because they know she wont spank them. I come over, see this, and make the one threat I need to, and it stops. They start to respect their bend-over-backwards-grandmother after I make the point of "does grandma give you the best snacks, love, toys, and cuddles?" when they give the answer, its always yes. "Well, then you better remember to treat her how you want to be treated, because grandma wont be nice if you dont start to be!" or "Well, Grandma wont do it, but I will. Behave or it is a spanking!" She spanked me a couple times as a kid, for really bad things. I ran away from her when she was mad because I tried to light the bathroom on fire for the 100th time, and when the cops found me, she hugged me, sent them away, and gave me 5 really good swats after she stopped bawling. I never ran away again, and if I remember correctly, I understood why I got my licks. She had to explain that the old man I was talking to was a "different" sort. One that makes Jerry Sandusky look like Santa Clause. That was my first real memory of the real world, as a matter of fact. She never had to spank me again. She smacked me in the mouth a couple times for the "F" word, and for mouthing off to her, but she didnt ever have to spank me again.

Sorry, Grump, I just do not agree that it is truly as harmfull as some believe. I would rather swat my kids NOW, than lose them to prison LATER. My brother that is in prison says that he wishes mom would have kicked his ass once. She never did with him, and he has always needed my mom to bail him out. Or give him money. Or find him a job or place to live. Or me. How many times I have had to rescue my nephews, go to court to fight for them, be called the bad guy because I called DFS on his wife because she got TRASHED with my almost born nephew in her belly. This was after she lost the older two to abuse and neglect. If HE thinks he needed smacked when he was a kid, I have to tell ya, I agree. He was vicious to me growing up. He was my babysitter, and I have the scars to prove it. I turned out to be what I am because of the spankings, I think. If anything it let me know that I was not better than anyone, and to respect my mothers words more. I never snuck out of my mothers house. I never drank in high school. I was active in many after school programs, and I was a member of FHA/FFA. As much as she makes me mad at times, my mom is my best friend. I can be more honest with her than with just about anything (except I still make that face when she talks about her sex life), as she has helped me overcome alcoholism and drug abuse. She knows all of my deep and dark secrets because I tell them to her. All I am saying is that what works for some may not work for others. I knew I was loved growing up, I knew that I was the world to my mother. I knew that no matter what, she would always do what was best for me. She is and was my biggest advocate growing up. And all of this has not dimmed because of a spanking. It didnt hurt me any. I needed that spanking to remember some valuable life lessons. It didnt sink in all the way for me without it. I dont feel that it is going to hurt anyone to have a spanking done out of love and compassion. I always tell my kids why I am doing it. Its always when I am calm, and after they have thought about the gravity of the situation. In fact, a few months ago, my son was 45 minutes late coming home from school. I was beyond insane. I had my mom looking for him, the school looking for him, and was on the phone with the cops when he came strolling in the door. After I hung up, I hugged him, asked where he had been, and sent him up to his room for a few so I could calm down. After we talked about why it is super important to always come straight home (which he knows), I gave him the option of a week grounding or a spanking. Guess which he chose? The spanking. He is the sweet one. The one who is constantly asking what he can do to help, and he chose the spanking. That is my evidence that it is not that bad. None of the kids are afraid of me, or head shy, or thinks mom is gonna "kill em" when they come home. They actually seek me out to help when they do something bad or wrong. I had a phone call from my daughter at school to rat on herself for t-boneing a girl in the halls because they were both running down the hall, turned the corner, SMACK! My daughter got a broken elbow, the other girl broke her nose, and lost her two front teeth. My daughter was more worried about the other girl than she was herself, and she had a broken elbow! She called me bawling. "Mom, I am SO sorry!" "What is going on, what happened?" "You know how you always say 'dont run in the house!'? Well, I was running and..." I was half giggling at this point, didnt even know my kid was injured yet, and she said "Will you take me to get her something nice. I feel really bad, and I know it was wrong to run, but I was late getting to art class." Then, the nurse gets on the phone to inform me that my daughters elbow was very swollen, and it appeared to be injured. I went and got her, and was told the whole time about what a great daughter I had, how she helped the other girl to the nurses office, and that she was getting a respect and helpfullness award (I have a box full of those, te-he-he!).

Sorry so very long, I am on one this morning :) I just feel that a simple swat is just that. I have seen people have more issues from the mental abuse that their parents thought was going to help, over a spanking, and I would rather my kids know that they are smart, caring, loved, and respected. I tell them this even when we are doing the talk. "I know that you can do this, you just have to convince yourself. You are smart enough to think it through. Give me 10 minutes of your brain, and I'll give you 20 of mine."

Have a good morning, all!

If you punish you shawn in other ways and stick to it i suppose it will work as well as spankin. Problem is parents are just to lazy to follow through with punishments. I have a good friend tht spanked her child. But then decided to stick to her punishment to her daughter. When she did something that deserved spanking she'd take away on of her priveledges. Took the door off her bedroom when she would sneak out of the house. Now the kid has no privacy. Next she took away the kids computer except for homework. Took away her celllphone. For smaller things she takes 1.00 off ever offense from her allowance, the kid only gets 5.00 rightn now. It seems to work a little but i still think spanking is best policy.

Well, a spanking only works until about 8 or 9, at most. After that, the worst punishment is chores and boredom. How old is this kid that only gets a 5.00 allowance? To some, that is abuse, lol. Makes more than my kids. They dont get allowance for chores. They only get allowance for the extras. BUT, they also get to pick one thing worth 5 bucks every payday, and extras alot, so it works.

I agree Wowed, After age 8 or 9 you should have a foundation already built. If you havent, then nothing you do after that age will really work unless the child wants to make it work.

btone - I hope you were kidding... how is soap in the mouth abusive? I'm 44 if that helps better understand.. my parents were actually allowed to be parents.

Brenda... I agree... but when I was a teenager I knew exactly how to get under my mothers skin... I mean really bad, you could send her over the edge by rolling your eyes to heaven while she was talking to you... Looking back I deserved quite a few slaps upside the head.. if they were smart they would have chained be to my room... I thank them daily that I lived through those late teen years of my life... Greatest thing they ever did (in my opinion) was told us they would ALWAYS come pick us up if we were drunk and drove or if our ride was drunk, with no questions and no punishment... I had to request it once at 3am (after curfew).. and they lived up to their promise

Agreed, Lyndanne. My mother was the same way. She knew we were going to do it, she just made it safe. She also pulled a fast one. She had me so busy hanging out with my older brother doing things like that, that I didnt really have time to go out to parties to do it. If I was drinking with my brother, being lead to believe she didnt know, I was safe because he was with me, hanging at his house. It took me a long time to realize it, but my brother was the first person I ever did any new things like that with. He broke me into it all. And I got over it alot sooner, and safer than most people do. Worked out well.

Exactly!
Spanking ought to be almost as if symbolic act which works only on 3 to 7 years old. If you have to spank 9 year old or older, they might laugh at you, that's how lightly it ought to be done. Plus the fact you have to do spanking in age of 9, shows you slacked off while it was much easier for both sides.
If that little rebel needs spanking, why not? But with love and not anger. After they're done crying, take them on your knees and tell them how much you love them.
Thanks to people with mental issues and/or stressful lives, decent people with real love for their children will not be allowed to raise their children properly and effectively?

First of all the idea of using an object to hit a child child says everything about the disconnectedness and sociopathic nature of the behavior. What's the message to the child there? "You're willing to hurt me, but not yourself"?

Secondly, having to strike a child (or anyone for that matter) merely to impose your will means you have already lost control.

Bullies learn their violent techniques at home and probably from parents who themselves grew up with violence used as a supposed corrective.

But then what do you expect from an overly violent culture but reinforcement of that same condition imposed on the children who eventually grow up to become police facing the OWS protestors?

I'd put money on the chances that these punishment obsessed whackos are basically just closet perverted sadists.

I mean, really... writing a book on how to whip your child? With suggestions for proper whipping tools?

The Marquis de Sade has went religious....

Agreed culheath. I wonder, if we took a poll of prison inmates, how many would abmit to being beaten and out of those, how many felt like it bettered them.

I did volunteer work in a women's shelter, and the common thread was EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM was beaten. Beaten down to the point they had NO self esteem, and felt that they were worthless.

When folks lose their sense of self worth, they also lose their values.....if a person thinks they are of no value to those that are supposed to love them, they will not have regard for others.

Beating a child is for the dull and ignorant....and I admit, raising a child is hard, but raising a child well, requires creativity and thought.

If you have to beat your kid...you're doing something wrong.

Holy utter DBAG... the fact that you would even have to lay a hand on a child goes to show your parenting skills aren't that great to begin with. Pathetic you would need to use any type of fear or violence to instill right and wrong... you talk about a license... get in line buddy and practice what you preach...

Culhealth- I Agree with the use of a "Tool".

That said, 3-7 is the age of when a "spanking" is effective. Orech had that right. Before then, they dont understand, anyway, after that, it is pointless on so many levels. A spanking is a great thing when used to combat the RIGHT problems. It should never hurt the parents hand when done. It should be done without anger, and it should be done when the child knows the reasons BEFORE you do it. Some kids dont listen at that age with out a spanking, while others dont need one at all, they just correct it with a talking to. You dont lose control of yourself just because you gave a spanking. You lose control of yourself when you do it angry, and without the words that go along with it. As a parent, I really dont think of myself having control over my kids, I think of it as me having the opportunity to make someone successful and happy. I am the boss, for the most part, but I know that I cannot control them outside of this house, after they hit adulthood, so the best thing I can do is make them take their own responsibilities for their actions. Their thought process comes from their childhood, so if I dont want someone else to control them, why would I? Its more than control, is what I am saying. It should be a partnership of sorts. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. My favorite quote for my kids. If you do this, I have to do this, because I want you to see that YOU did the wrong thing, and you would rather me do it now, than them do it when you are 20. Figure out what YOU did to warrant the reaction. After, and only after, you can move on, and learn WHY it is wrong. I put the responsibilities on THEM, not me. That is because I can say that I have shown them the right ways, explained the right ways, and made them see that it works. They have a great role model on that one. Their dad. In and out of prison until he was 29. Angry at everyone, didnt care, and had no problem telling you how he felt about you, while tearing your house apart because "it was the thing to do". He changed, figured it out, and now strives to lead a normal, happy, successful life. He went from one extreme to the next, and now tells the kids "You WONT be like me, you are better than that". And can give horror stories to go along with it. There needs to be a balance. A spanking is an attention getter. It makes them see that you are not just talking, you are acting. Time out doesnt really work for everything. And all kids are different. Saying one thing doesnt work, when it so obviously worked for me and many others, is like saying what your parents did didnt work, when you may know that it did work for you. Real thought needs to go into discipline, not emotions.

Spanking is never right. It teaches one simple rule; "if someone does something you don't like, and they wont stop, the proper response is to hit them". The child also learns something else... "don't get caught".

So, teach violence and deception? I don't think so. I have two little ones who are very bright, and, at times, very difficult. But "difficult" doesn't mean hitting is ok. They are not animals, they are children with minds that can learn and, of note to the "pro-spank" movement; remember.

So wrong and on so many levels.

After teaching thousands of children of various ages for 37 years, there is one thing I know and can attest to...children learn by example. This is how they learn self-discipline.

To prove why spanking is wrong, it's as simple as asking, "Okay, now what mode of self-discipline did I just teach my child by hitting or spanking them?"

If your discipline is centered around teaching the child to discipline themselves, you're wasting your time and only using physical discipline as an excuse to exert your authority. What? Your kids don't know you are the major authoritarian already? You have to reinforce your control over them with physical discipline?

I was always a very tough disciplinarian. It was a matter of teaching them respect for authority when it was due....accent on "when it was due". Parents who instill the idea in their kids that all adults are deserving of respect for their authority make those children ripe for predators because they can't tell the difference between good authority and bad.

"I live in a college town, a religious college. Every year there is a fresh crop of misguided, under-educated, young women that come through those gates who have no idea what to do in most situations because they were never taught at home. Just spank, pray, amen.
Some of the funnest women I've ever met here had parents that were big into corporal punishment. The guilt, the sexual repression in these women comes out in everything they do. I can usually tell which parent was the "Corporal" type before I f*** them. The 'bi's, 'try's. and 'dom's usually had an over aggressive mother. The 'sub's, it was the father who gave the spankings, or had no father figure at all. Funny how girls with abusive fathers and no father end up in the same boat."

This isn't fiction. It's a journal entry of a guy who wrote a book on S&M.

Each class I taught had between 8 to 10 children in them. However, when their attention strayed, my way to regain their attention was to wait until they realized I was waiting for them to compose themselves.

I tried the same thing with the outside contractors and clients at one company I worked for, screaming at the tops of their lungs when something did or didn't go their way on the phone. It works every time. Sooner or later Mount Vesuvious expels all of its guts and when it's ready to shut up and listen, then and only then will I rejoin communication with screaming beasts.

For me, disciplining children was matching wits with childhood's versions of "options". Any of the children I ever worked with including my own 2 knew I was the adult and they therefore hadn't earned the right to the same experience level as I reached. That's how you get children to realize YOU, not they, are the ones with more experience you are willing to share with them to help them discipline themselves.

I laugh at some of the contortions today's parents put themselves through trying to discipline their children. Parenting isn't rocket science. It's doling out love and kindness when it's appropriate. It's doling out the kind of discipline the child can use as an adult in a constructive lesson of self-discipline and self-control. For me, those two were the priority in raising children.

btone: Absolutely. I told my son the same thing and it works just great. The problem is the person who started. What do they believe? Do they think they can get away using violence first?

My father was an illiterate Italian immigrant who died when I was just a shade into my teens. In the bucolic life of a farmer's daughter, your father is a man you respect enough to remain pure as the driven snow.

Some fathers get this instinctively and never have to raise a hand to their daughters. Others, insist upon engraving into their daughter's minds that father means King.

I was fortunate to have a father who taught obedience channeled through a deep abiding respect and a mother who was smart and refused to be second to any.

...I was fortunate to have a father who taught obedience channeled through a deep abiding respect and a mother who was smart and refused to be second to any...

Yea, that explains why you think the way you do...

When I "spanked" my kids, I put one hand over their behind, and smacked it with my other hand. It made a loud noise, and the most that any child ever felt was a slight change of pressure of the resting hand. They screamed like I was killing them. Tears streamed and sniffles were endless. Then, they got a stern lecture about their behavior. Did it work? Most of the time. The only thing that red was the back of the slap hand.

There's a whole world of difference between a gentle disciplining with a strong lecture and a violent beating with a negative tirade. It's sad the rest of the world doesn't understand that. Belief is a powerful tool. We should use it to its best advantage.

Ewent,

You continue to reveal more of your twisted Psyche with every post. NOT All discipline has to teach self-discipline. So your complete concept of Human nature is wrong, so no wonder all your conclusions are faulty. Your Liberal "there is no ultimate authority", "all authority and morality are subjective constructs" lunacy is laughable.

Parental authority is the FIRST "authority" a child learns to respect. Without that they will never respect ANY "authority". Oh, that's right. Your one of those anarchist, ex-hippie, types out to destroy "Evil" Western society. How you think you are teaching them to respect ANY authority is beyond me, because they don't respect you and you don't even know it.

I laugh that your "IDEA" of discipline is to try and "REASON" with a child whose brain has barely developed the ability to comprehend "OBJECT PERMANENCE", and are deluded into thinking your not using "force" in your discipline.

So you were the mother of toddler having a "melt down" in the middle of Wal-Mart/restaurant/Store/Street/etc. while you let them "learn to discipline themselves". "Sooner or later Mount Vesuvius expels all of its guts and when it's ready to shut up and listen, then and only then will I rejoin communication with screaming beasts" So the rest of us had to put up with the disruption, noise, violence, etc. of YOUR child because YOU are too much of wuss to deal with the situation. Tell me again, WHO has the power there?? Sounds like the child does. If he screams long enough YOU will give in with an "option" to "distract" him, i.e. positively reward his bad behavior.

You NEVER picked up your screamingbrat and "placed him" in "time out", or "in the Happy chair", or corner? If you did, you used the exact violence and physical power you rant against and are even more the hypocrite. So which is it?? are you a lier, hypocrite, or both??

You Claim:

"I was always a very tough disciplinarian. It was a matter of teaching them respect for authority when it was due....accent on "when it was due."

Please, explain exactly what you mean by that statement. If you didn't use "Spanking", or other "violence" punishment, please give example of your "methods" to enlighten the ignorant Neanderthals. Like so many liberals, you are long on claims and generalized "theory", but sorely lacking in details.

Now, I gotta ask you, zapper, Did they ever realize that you were slapping your hand? What do you do when they realize you are the only one that hurt from it? (I do get that idea up until a certain point.)

My two year old loves to climb on the table, giggles when I go get her and tell her no, then waits until my back is turned to do it again, I say no, put her in time out, make her do her ENTIRE two minutes (It doesnt start until she quits yelling and throwing her fit, so it works out to about 4 minutes), then we talk about why its wrong to push the buttons on the security system, and why it is wrong to ignore mom. Then, after 5 minutes, she and the baby are right back up there. So, my two year old gets the pat on the butt, more sound than anything, pretends that she is dying, and moves on until the next day. The baby gets a firm no, and then she is dying, and its pitiful. If it was one of the first kids, Id be a little more inclined to feel bad, but #3 and #4 are a little different. I have to keep myself from giggling in front of them. The older twos last spankings were when they were about 5. I just have to talk to them now. I go into great detail when we talk, and I am brutally honest with them (their father was killed when they were very young, so they get what real life is). I will tell my kids that they need to learn this stuff now so that they dont make the mistakes when it really matters. As for the babies, they are so confident, and have so much more stability than the older two did, they are harder to get through to, but a spank on the butt works well for the two year old, and the 1 year old just needs a firm NO! to get her attention (if she is anything like her older sister, she will need a swat once or twice to get her attention when she gets older). It is different for every kid. I dont condone abuse, but a swat is litterally a swat. My grandmother used to pinch my dad in church to make him hold still. Drew blood alot. But, he paid attention. At least when they were at church.

By the time my kids were third or fourth grade, they were too big to be spanked. We are not "little" people. But the belief was instilled. They believed I would do it. That's the tool of belief.

The lecture, on the other hand, was geared at what we could decide to agree on. "Can we agree . . . that poking your brother with a stick is a really bad idea?" "Can we agree . . . that painting your sister's Barbie doll bright purple will really annoy her, and she will get you for that?" and on and on. It's amazing what kids will agree to when they get the bigger picture. "Can we agree that you don't want to be locked in a room with your sibling for 30 minutes so you two can duke it out." That one was always a winner.

Spankings lose their effectiveness with the growing maturity of the child. After a certain age, hate is the only thing engendered. Each child is different, too. A parent must measure their ability to teach and communicate against their power of being the enforcer.

I often hear “I got hit when I was a kid and I turned out OK," or “I was spanked as a child, and I deserved it.” It is very hard for us to believe that people who loved us would intentionally hurt us, so we feel the need to excuse that hurt. If you were willing to reach deep inside and really feel again the hurt you felt when you were physically punished as a child, you would never consider inflicting that pain on your own child. I have heard many stories from adults who still hate their parents because their parents spanked them "for their own good."

And the pain does not end in childhood, even if we repress and deny it. A landmark analysis of 88 corporal punishment studies over six decades showed that spanking during childhood was associated with negative behaviors in adults, even when the adult said that the spanking was deserved and had not hurt them. Even a few instances of being hit as children are associated with more depressive symptoms as adults. While most of us who were spanked “turned out OK”, it is clear that not being spanked would have helped us "turn out" to be healthier.

I strongly believe that permissiveness without limits creates children who are unhappy and impossible to live with. But discipline means “to teach." If we're serious about raising good kids, we need to use methods that teach kids to manage themselves. Spanking does not do that. Instead, it teaches kids to be afraid of us, which is no basis for love. It teaches them to be sneaky so they won't be caught doing something wrong. It teaches kids that they are bad, so they are more likely to behave badly. It teaches kids to use violence when they want to solve a problem. And it keeps them from taking responsibility to improve their own behavior, because they "externalize the locus of control," which means they only behave because an authority figure makes them, rather than behaving because they want to.

The secret is that spanking not only doesn't work, it is totally unnecessary. When children are raised with age-appropriate expectations and limits accompanied by empathy, they tend to behave and cooperate. Those children don't need much in the way of discipline at all, and they become self-disciplined adults.

What would you do after no amount of teaching makes your child stop trying to light things on fire? Tried grounding, loss of other priveledges, shown them pictures of fires, taken them to fire station, on and on, and they still continue to light fires? Do you hope that it stops? I finally swatted my 5 year olds butt, and guess what happened? He quit. Never did it again. Same thing the time he ran out in the road and almost killed us both. He was a hard kid for a minute, but once he realized that I was serious when I threatened the spank, he started to listen. Then that turned into outright respect and thought before acting. Now he has a conscience guiding him, even if that is the thought of "what is mom gonna do". Ill take that for now. As he gets older, he will get it. Same with my other three girls.

@Nikki - I couldn't agree with you more. My mother would spank us, put the fear of God into us, and call us names growing up. I actually remember the hurt I felt because I was a really good kid and I didn't deserve it. I also remember her saying this is going to hurt me more than you or this is for your own good. I realized these were lies when I had my daughter. I was in the same position as my mother and I never wanted to make my daughter feel less than. I could never imagine hurting someone I loved so much. I did spank my daughter on a few occassions but it just felt wrong and it wasn't something I was comfortable doing.

What he was inplying Jonjojon, was that a book can't cause a person to do anything? no matter what is in the book. Do you see what he was saying? You know the line of reasoning "the fork makes you fat?" Anyway...........

You know the line of reasoning "the fork makes you fat?" Anyway...........

Uhhh, last I looked a fork was not an instructional tool meant to guide parents on their behavior towards their children. Nor can you "over-emphasize" a fork's meaning and turn it into abuse.

If I found a book on the merits of prolonged drinking in an alcoholic's house I might tend to somewhat 'blame the book'.

And if he wanted to use the Amish as an example he might want to consult them on how they discipline their children and not their donkeys.

richard-795963.....think buddy, think......come on you can do it.

richard-795963.....think buddy, think......come on you can do it.

maryavejoe, you must be a conservative. No rational thought process or relevant ideas, just empty criticism

@ J nickes...The difference is that the 12 step book is used to help someone quit drinking not a tool to learn how to drink.

Comparing his book to a 12 step book just shows the level to which this minister does not get it.

Anyone who has seen what passes these days for Cable Reverends is witness to a huge dumbing down as a result of lack of education. A parent lacking in substantial parenting skills suffers frustration and inability to control their anger. Any infraction no matter how insignificant is subject to that frustration and anger and therefore can never really suffice for discipline.

The wise parent knows that discipline teaches self-discipline. Those who miss that shouldn't be parents.

Try this example: If you find the "Anarchist Cookbook", a publication full of 'survival tips', bomb plans, and assorted 'recipes' for all kinds of things , in the house of someone that just blew up a hundred people, would you blame the book for those deaths? Or maybe the screwed-up as$ person that actually committed the act? People act independently. Or at least we're suppose to.

I picked up a cookbook at a yard sale entitled "Peace-Meal Cookbook". It was originally put out during the 1960's to raise money for a safe house and common kitchen in Greenwich Village for Draft Dodgers and their like. Does that negate my Army Service in Vietnam?

i was spanked and came from a family i have three older sisters GO FIGURE?

all spanking is wrong I HAVE NEWS FOR YOU

should I be in the care of grandchildren that hit their siblings

You should have spent more time on your own education and less time assaulting your children.

Um....there are decaf brands that taste just as good as the real thing.....

I love that movie!

What an insane, rambling post. The people that are arguing for spanking are not doing a very good job of it.

but a few WHITE children die from FREAKING PHYCO IDIOTS THAT DONT HAVE A CLUE what jesus taught about LOVE and discipline and we are to say

This is not about race. The children in the article were adopted from Ethiopia, Liberia AND America. It does not say whether any of the children were white. It is a tragedy when ANY child dies from abuse, regardless of color.

but a few WHITE children die from FREAKING PHYCO IDIOTS THAT DONT HAVE A CLUE what jesus taught about LOVE and discipline and we are to say ...

Actually, the quote about "sparing the rod" did not come from Jesus -- it was nothing he had to say. The quote is from Proverbs and that's in the OLD Testament. So, I'm guessing that if you're raising your kids that way ... they don't eat shellfish or pork chops, wear cotton blend clothes, etc.

I highly suspect Jesus wouldn't approve of calling people " FREAKING PHYCO IDIOTS" either.

uuuuum if that's what they are that's what ya call em :)

This is a lot more than spanking. These people are abusing their children. Using belts or tubing to beat them, denying them food, forcing them to sleep outdoors in the cold. These are not disciplinary tools, these are crimes.

Hey Rob. You need help with your grammar first. Second, your ramblings are incoherent. Finally, you spank because you are out of control. Children do not need to be spanked. If you cause pain then it is abuse. It can be physical or mental abuse. I know this topic involves spanking but where there is spanking, there is also mental abuse.

oh, I see.

You're one of those 9/11 inside job crackpots. That tells me all I need to know

Get a life and get off the internet.

911 was a inside job infowars com henrymakow com

Yes, very relevant to today's vine duscussion.

Richard, if you think 9/11 was not an inside job, maybe you are someone who need someone to tell you what to do. Oh yeah and how to tie you shoes????

Richard, if you think 9/11 was not an inside job, maybe you are someone who need someone to tell you what to do. Oh yeah and how to tie you shoes????

The tin-foil hat club is up to two members.

You think our government, that can't do anything without twenty hearings and three votes, managed to pull of the most intricate, perfectly executed conspiracy of all time? And not a single person said anything to anyone or has any sort of proof? C'mon. Be serious.

Scuba --

LOL You have the best argument of all regarding that issue.

how did this turn into THAT?

So now the freaks are coming out of the woodwork. Rob, you can be their leader. Because your grammar stinks, are you a christian or anti-christian? By the way, they have this cool feature when you are about to Post Comment where you can check your spelling. You are certainly fringe.

Result of improper home schooling and whippings.

First of all, 9/11 has nothing to do with this issue.

But while we're on the subject, here's a thought for what it's worth.

Scuba has the best argument, indeed. I feel the same way concerning the ineptitude of our government. So, it is very difficult to proclaim that it was an inside job, performed secretly by our government for nefarious purposes. We seem to have some of the biggest idiots in our government, so how could they possibly pull this off?

HOWEVER, I have some serious questions about the entire 9/11 ordeal that have never been legitimately answered by our leaders. Many, many intelligent, rational people have proposed concerns about the events of that day. I won't even bother to go into it right now, this has been hashed out many times in countless other threads. But until I receive some decent answers that do not seem like whitewashing of the facts, I will continue to be skeptical of the official story.

Besides, despite the notion that government cannot seem to do anything correct, in the past our government has managed to pull off some very shady things. Thus, I cannot rule out complicity entirely.

Why kill thousands and destroy some very expensive real estate when you can just say that they have WMDs?

A more apt analogue to the fork would be the "flexible garden hose" and I don't think anyone is arguing against banning those.

A fork never told anyone it was ok to beat a 6 month old if they were being bad.

Burn the Bible?

D:

I don't see anyone advocating the punishment of involuntary actions. But the fact is that when there is no good behavior to reward and we have people like you worried that, if we don't praise the bad behavior, it might hurt the child's self-esteem, it leaves little hope for raising the child to being a responsible citizen. Spanking is supposed to send the message "It hurts when I do that. It doesn't hurt when I don't do that. Maybe I shouldn't do that."

I agree pvblivs. The "good job!!!" for every action a child takes can get as out of hand as anything. Seems like it can lead to kids who expect a reward for any action, no matter how small, then grow to be teenagers who won't do anything EXCEPT for a reward. d - of course you reward good behavior. Sometimes just with a heartfelt thank you. Unfortunately kids don't come with an instruction manual and what works with one may not work with another. I have 2 boys and the rewards/punishments are very different. Although I sometimes feel like it, corporal punishment is not needed with either. The Biblical teaching is that corporal punishment is NEVER done in anger - for obvious reasons - it will get out of control. I've only seen the one reference in Psalms about corporal punishment and have learned it's historical backround which is what the Pastor is trying to teach. But again we see....irrational people who are ill-equiped for child-rearing and have a lack of self-control, get ahold of one thing in the Bible and forget about what's in the rest of it and go completely overboard...need I say more?

The article suggets " hosing off a child who has potty-training lapses". Is this how parents what to be treated when they are senior citizens? Bad behavior should have consequences, but hitting isn't the only answer. Many parents make empty threats or take privileges away from a child only to relent when the child complains. If you say "no TV" then mean it, and don't give in. This has nothing to do with hitting. I has everything to do with following through.

Question? Do you hit people at your place of work when you don't get your own way? If hitting coworkers is wrong, why is it okay to hit your child?

My bad....the "He who spareth the rod.." is not in psalms, it's in proverbs

d - Hiting is Not the only answer. Sometimes it is an attention getter. If my child were to run towards traffic and not listen when I say stop, he just might get a swat. There are obviously insane suggestions in this book as you have pointed out. And I think you are right on about the parents who make empty threats. I see that all the time and it's infuriating

I wonder if people understand that children don't understand grown-up concepts. There are people posting their beliefs that children should be discouraged with mature concepts as if they are 20-year-olds. A six or seven year old understands a stinging butt. A sixteen year old understands withholding of car privileges. You don't spank a sixteen year old and you don't try adult concepts with a six year old.

No surprise at all. Let's start by getting rid of religion altogether, dumping its recourse to primitive ethics formulated when we were still losing our prehensile tails right along with all of its ridiculous fairy tale explanations for how things got so screwed up. Then maybe we'll have some less barbaric ideas about how to love and understand our children and each other a little more clearly.

yes, old gator, that makes perfect sense. I'd love to live in a place where i have no right to believe what I want. Should it be the government that gets rid of religion? that way I can be arrested and jailed and told what to believe and not believe by the government. that would be awesome and perfect freedom. Its clear you have no idea to what tes37110 is referring.

Tax the hell out of religion and churches. We'll see how many really want to "beleive" what they preach then.

This is one stupid post..and the last line proves the point tes37110 was making...children are not able to seek help for themselves in a situation of abuse in the home and anyone who advocates the world should 'butt out of our lives' must be doing something behind closed doors that they wouldn't do out in public for fear of public scrutiny of their actions! Abuse of innocents in any form anywhere is the worlds business! If more people spoke up and defended those who cannot defend themselves this world would be a better place. Advocating that just because you were lucky enough to live through your parents lousy methods means those methods were good ones is lazy parenting. Maybe you should sit down with yourself and think ....was your childhood really all that peaceful and happy? And did you really turn out all that well?

Children learn what they are shown...you are living proof.

Those who are opposed to spanking have been severely misled.

Council voted to adopt the following resolution on corporal punishment:

WHEREAS: The resort to corporal punishment tends to reduce the likelihood of employing more effective, humane, and creative ways of interacting with children;

WHEREAS: it is evident that socially acceptable goals of education, training, and socialization can be achieved without the use of physical violence against children, and that children so raised, grow to moral and competent adulthood;

WHEREAS: Corporal punishment intended to influence "undesirable responses" may create in the child the impression that he or she is an "undesirable person"; and an impression that lowers self-esteem and may have chronic consequences;

WHEREAS: Research has shown that to a considerable extent children learn by imitating the behavior of adults, especially those they are dependent upon; and the use of corporal punishment by adults having authority over children is likely to train children to use physical violence to control behavior rather than rational persuasion, education, and intelligent forms of both positive and negative reinforcement;

WHEREAS: Research has shown that the effective use of punishment in eliminating undesirable behavior requires precision in timing, duration, intensity, and specificity, as well as considerable sophistication in controlling a variety of relevant environmental and cognitive factors, such that punishment administered in institutional settings, without attention to all these factors, is likely to instill hostility, rage, and a sense of powerlessness without reducing the undesirable behavior;

THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED: That the American Psychological Association opposes the use of corporal punishment in schools, juvenile facilities, child care nurseries, and all other institutions, public or private, where children are cared for or educated (Conger, 1975).

Exactly, I mean what does the American Psychological Association know??

Oh of course. Damn Richard, there it is the FACTS! Oh I'm so glad the american psychological association cleared things up what would we do without them?? these are the same folks that tought shocking some one is good for their mental heath. or better yet how about cut the front part of their brain out so as to controal them. or how about lets just pump them full of meds to controal them because we don't know what's wrong with them? (Maybe they weren't spank enough as a child?) So the companys, that make the meds, that they own stock in, can make some money?? Yeah Richard I see your point?

What a complex topic. Yes, beatings are bad. Beatings that cause bodily harm are criminal. However the occasional open hand swat on the behind can do wonders IF it is accompanied by the right lesson. The swat isn't the punishment - it's just an attention getter so that you can get the lesson across. Sometimes you just can't have a quiet and rational discussion with a three-year-old.

As an educator, who worked w/ emotionally handicapped children, I can assure you that hitting a child is NEVER okay. Never ever hit a child. I have personally seen the damage done by adults with good intention of striking a child. Further more, bullies are created by parents who slap, punch and hit them.

As a parent I raised two fine male children, My spouse and I never laid a hand on them, They played hockey, tennis and other sports. Went to college and have do not smoke, drink nor do either have drug issues. Time out works just fine. Taking away a privilege is just a effective as a fist. NEVER EVER HIT A CHILD.

tought shocking some one is good for their mental heath. or better yet how about cut the front part of their brain out so as to controal them

Your GED is calling you J nickes, pleae go get it.

And you would know better than God!

Our society today is the kindler gentler one, where childern expect and demand and tantrum till they get what they want.

Look at society now, the no repercussions ... oh well sorry your so upset about the rules, well just bend them a little, its ok, maybe a time out, where you can sit with your iphone or game boy.

societies problems are a direct result of children not being properly disciplined. PERIOD

My GOD would never advocate violence, especially to teach innocent children. I believe mankind advocates violence and misuses GOD's name to justify it. Also, it is sad that you think society today is so bad. We don't behave or treat each other perfectly, but I think we improve bit by bit, primarily through learning and education.

I love the last sentence, "Hands are not for hitting."

I can tell you are a good parent. :) I was never spanked as a child either. I actually respected my parents. I didn't fear them, the only fear I had was that I would dissapoint them because I respected them so much.

A lot of people think fear = respect. The two rarely coincide.

And now that we no longer will need soldiers, we do not need this, especially not the spill over entering regular police, and their beating of their wives, So we can strike number one and two of wife beaters!---These are facts as well!!!

more aggressive responses in their relationships and have a higher rate of sexual problems. They have also proven that spanking causes damage to the brains higher level hormone responses that regulate emotion and the pain and emotional upset interferes with the ability to learn a lesson

First and foremost, who has proven this? Is it unanimus amongst the child psychologists? You should take a look out there, as there are more and more child behaviorists moving towards the side that reasonable, common sense, corporal punishment is acceptible if not preferable for some children. Boys from the same economic backgrounds that have some low end corporal punishment actually wind up making more money and going further in school.

It has it's place in parenting, I have 2 kids, one I've spanked maybe 3 times in his 7 years and I have another, very strong willed son who rarely reacts to anything but corporal punishment. He needs it, because the vast majority of the things he gets spanked for are to protect him (ie climbing on the roof, playing with fire, ect...) or throwing tantrums (which thankfully he never does anymore @ 5 yrs old), my other son does not need this, as he didn't do these things and is basically an easy going kid. You cannot say what is right for every kid, as every kid is different and needs different types of parenting. My strong willed son is also the one of the 2 I expect to go further in life, as his stubborn nature will serve him well proffessionally, he get's it from me and it has served me well too.

As well as how all this relates to adult happiness, many studies have been showing that outside of severe abuse, especially sexual in nature, the way you are raised has very little effect on happiness as an adult....this is turning out to be much more related to genetics.

p.s. I consider what this preacher is doing out of the norm and extreme. Boarderline child abuse, no doubt, but on the other hand I'd rather see a kid get raised in this environment than a foster home, there is no more important thing to a kid than being loved, and these parents aren't hitting their kid because they enjoy it, they are doing it becaus they believe it is how you raise a traditional Christian...right or wrong, these kids are better off with their parents, they have a couple of bad eggs which took things way too far, those bad eggs are crazy and most likely quite stupid.

First of all, everyone's definition of "spanking" is different. A quick pop on the butt to get a child's attention isn't hurting anything. Sometimes a child running around distracted needs a loud voice and a pop on the butt to get them to stop and realize the weight of a situation. That is when you know whether they are paying attention or not and how to address it from there.

In life, if you make a mistake, many times the only indicator is pain. Not paying attention and set your hand on something hot? That hurts and you take notice. An individual's ability to learn to deal with it is important. Just as a child needs to know when they can push boundaries or freelance a bit on their own, they need to know when a situation is serious and that they need to have a level of concentration in order to work with a group lead by an authority in those situations.

Whether a parent spanks or not doesn't change the fact that pain is used by nature to teach. It is a data transfer method embedded by evolution. Emotional and physical pain work the same way (in different systems obviously) and you have systems that are meant to make sense of them, learn from them, and predict them. Whether a parent spanks or not, a child learns from and is even motivated by pain.

And finally, sick people are never going to go away. bad stuff happens to even good people. We simply have to remember that different isn't always bad. We just have to hope that we can educate things like this (the bad behaviors, not necessarily the spanking) out of our society. It will take generations. And there will be a balance. You can't beat a child to death, but you can't truly reason with them either. But you should always try.

If a child rebels its usually because the environment their in dictates it, My parents used corporal punishment on me, It worked, I listened and I learned that by hurting others I could get them to do my bidding as well. Thats what it does, it usually destroys or badly damages the child / parent relationship and a circle of violence is again carried into another generation, anyone that comes from a family of abusers or parents that beat their kids will be quick to anger and even quicker to hit, shake or assault the very ones they claim to love and care about. I have never heard of a non violent sociopath, have any of you? they all come from violent or abusive environments. You should see what that Rod thing has done to those of Muslim decent, They have no issue with pain or death. Taking you with them shows they have no compassion, After all, they see you all as nothing but Mules....Peace

My husband and I figured out what NOT to do by our parents teachings.

how dare you compare the congress of the united states of america to the mafia...what has the mafia ever done to have its name dragged in the mud like that.

My son who is 6 told his mother he hated her, i smacked him lightly in the mouth, he never said it again

Great, tell me now, you certainly got to hit your son but did he love his mother afterwards because I think that should have been the real goal.

There is a very big difference between a very light smack on the butt (preferably) and the mouth vs spanking and beating. I know many parents who will do this and it causes no real problems because the situation is literally nipped in the bud. The smack is more to end the behavior sharply and snap the child to attention to the problem, like when you hit a toddler's hand when they start to play with the stove's knobs. It has nothing to do with inflicting pain. You aren't trying to hurt the child at all, just get them to stop immediately. The other key in my opinion is talking about what happened as soon as possible after the slap and explaining why you did it, and apologizing for slapping as well.

Anyone who is literally carrying around a length of PVC plumbing hose to use as a whip is clearly crossing the line here because the idea is to "break" their "defiant" child. That is just perverse and the classic sign of a bully!!

@richard-795963

did he love his mother afterwards

Do you really think the kid really meant what he said? Really? Or maybe he was lashing out at his mother for not getting his way. And the discipline was to reprove the child to not disrespect his mother. IMHO!

It does work when done right. The stories like this are parents who did it out of anger or aggression. It worked for my siblings and me, because it was done the right way,not angrily, and it worked for my kids who are so far from aggression compared to their friends who don't get spanked.

Rich:

I should point out. However much you (or I) may agree or disagree with what these people wrote, they have a job; this is it.

That percentage goes higher when the book is found and used as a GUIDELINE in the homes of 3 families (and I use the term VERY loosely) where children were beaten, starved and tortured... to DEATH.

This sort of abusive behavior is far more prevalent than you night suppose...the media reports on the extremes which cause death or show up in youtube videos, but yes, but much damage is being done out of sight and never makes the reportage. Consider how hidden spousal abuse was before it ever made the Main stream media.

Great point - so let's take it to its ultimate conclusion. How many homes where murders, assaults, rapes and other crimes take place have alcohol in them?????

Why are we as a society not up in arms about this???

Now, let's add in drugs...how many parents abuse drugs and children?

Depends on the drug and why it's being used.

That would be because indoctrination and beatings should evidently commence at the ripe old age of 6 months. Gotta get 'em early for the purest form of brainwashing and torture to do its job properly.

Thanks for speaking up Anita! It is difficult to imagine what life this pastor imagines would be better for Ehiopian children, or even worse, the thousands of older American children who have been taken away from abusive and neglectful parents. Does he want a return to Dickensian orphanages, as in "Oliver"? As someone who adopted a 16-year-old, I can confirm that we had plenty of temptations to beat him into submission. For example, by the 8th or 9th time that he had secretly taken down our credit card numbers and used them to buy hundreds of dollars of non-refundable online gaming and music downloads; or by the 3rd time he took the keys to my car without permission, while I was out of town at a conference, and used the car with his friends to go to the local Target store and shoplift an electronic game there. I can't tell you how frustrated we got with the legal system, which dealt with these transgressions mainly by requiring us to pay for a defense attorney for him (until we finally managed to argue successfully that this was a ridiculous conflict of interest). I still teeter as to whether a little bit of mild corporal punishment by us his parents might not have been better for our son than the time he ended up spending in jail. But there is absolutely no question in my mind, that he was (and is) better off for having been in our home, legally adopted, than in the group home he'd been living in previously. At 23, he still gets support from us, and in fact is living in a house (and trying to rehabilitate it) that we bought this past January for him--for $9500 cash.

it sounds like the Pearls' advocate being careful not to actually harm or bruise the child

1 - kids should not objects of the experiments parents use to develop their sense of restraint

2 - using tools or implements instead of your own hand is a kind of cowardice

1. A normal, well-balanced, rational adult is going to have the common sense to understand restraint from the get-go. They won't need any "experiments." Stop putting words into other peoples' mouths.

2. "Cowardice?" What a ridiculous assertion. I realize this is NOT what you're saying, but that statement makes it sound like "It's perfectly OK to beat your kids as long as you do it with your bare hands. At least it's not "cowardly" then!" (Again I re-iterate that I'm aware this is not what you're saying, just what it sounds like).

In my house we got a little swat with a wooden spoon. After a couple of those all Mom had to do was pick up the spoon and give us "the look" and we'd quit whatever objectionable behavior we were undertaking. In the meantime, we never learned to see Mom or Dad's hands as instruments of pain and punishment.

So how is smacking them supposed to make the better people? You don't need to hit your kids to get them to behave.

So, Dan, how do you get the child whose attitude is "ha, ha, I can do whatever I want and you can't do anything about it" to behave. Please note, time-outs or groundings will not be effective because he just won't stay for them. He doesn't want to. He does what he wants because you can't do anything. Think it over.

Has hitting your kids worked? I don't have all the answers. I just know I was able to raise my kids to be great kids without hittiing them. All kids are different and I suppose there are some that just won't listen regardless of what you do. My youngest was the most difficult but was able to get him in line without hitting him.

So, Dan, how do you get the child whose attitude is "ha, ha, I can do whatever I want and you can't do anything about it" to behave.

Sounds like those kids are rebellious from being beaten or trying to get attention from parents who don't really care about them.

Everyone, I know with kids like that have parents that are abusive, drunks or never home.

My Mother and Dad never spanked me when they were mad. The punishment came some time three days later. There fore when they spoke I listened. I have an out of control great grand son. I slapped him one time. When he throws his fit when I am around me he knows I will do something, so when I speak he listens. I can tell the difference when his fits are form him being sick. so I ask his mom to take him home or if I am at their place I get up and leave. Frankly I think most of it is from lack of attention. His grand mother spoils him rotten and she pays for it. She thought his fit throwing was cute. On one occasion I got up from the table at a restaurant and when set in the car. These out of control two year oldes turn in to out of control teenagers. Most of the time the parent blame it geting with the wrong crowd. I say birds of a feather flock together.

There is a HUGE diffenece between beating and abusing a child and spanking...clueless idiots equate the two...

child abuse is never condoned. but the rear is padded for a reason...and its a dependent situation...

its so ironic that the left is so pro choice and can go and murder a fetus with abortion, but then cry bloody murder when spanking a child comes up...friggen hypocrites.

each parent has the right to raise their child as they see fit..without abuse but with discipline

but the rear is padded for a reason

That's just the dumbest thought.

...each parent has the right to raise their child as they see fit.

says who? you? You think you own your children in the same way you own your car?

its so ironic that the left is so pro choice and can go and murder a fetus with abortion, but then cry bloody murder when spanking a child comes up...friggen hypocrites.

I am pro-choice. I also have given my son ONE swat on his rear-end to get his attention in the past (he's 5 now). The two are not mutually exclusive.

All children are different. What may work for one child does not work on another. Also, the things that work on a child evolve as the child grows. These days, sending him to his room is more effective than it was a year ago. A parent who is inflexible in their discipline techniques - in EITHER direction - is not an effective parent. Just because time outs worked for one child at 3 doesn't mean that they will continue to work. Just because ONE swat on the rear end was needed to get your child's attention at 4 so you could employ other techniques to teach doesn't mean that this is needed at 5.

You're right. I haven't had to spank my son (which I did when he was little but not very often) since he was 5. He's 15 now and an honor student. The thing about kids is this ...tell them what you expect of them and if they don't meet the expectation there are consequences. Violence isn't a consequence. I understand why some parents think that spanking is bad but if it's used as a last resort way to discipline it's fine but usually just a "i'm so disapponted" is far worse to the child than a spanking could ever be. Beating a child w/ a object should NEVER happen. Your strength over a child is enough, no need to enforce that w/ a object w/ the intent to injure.

Exactly! Thanks for that post.

All I can say Dan is your an exception to the rule. What is the difference in getting mad and screaming at your kids and spanking them (smacking your kids around is not spanking).