This is so AWESOME! Pay a decent wage, I bet you can fill those jobs right away. I'll pay a little more for my tomatoes. Perfect. Wait until you see how much less funding the schools need. And how many people illegally getting benefits, or legally in the case of foodstamps and WIC, will disappear. Then costs will drop dramatically. When other states start having to soak up the burden, maybe the other states will act as well... Unless Obama sues them.

ALL EYES ON ALABAMA!

I am not "pro-illegal" but I can see how legal immigrants would feel unwelcome especially if they have an accent. Would you really want to haul out your wallet every time a cop looks at you? Would you really want to have to prove your right to be here and suffer the suspicious looks and possible verbal abuse that might come your way because you look and sound "different"?

I think we do need to crack down on illegals and those who hire them and we also need a good "guest worker" program so migrants can come in legally for jobs like fruit picking, etc. We do need those workers. We just need to do it the right way.

Alabama only did half the job. They need to put a time limit on welfare, and stop unemployment benefits at 6 months. Require all employers to pay at least minimum wage - that is why it is called "minimum". Then see if Americans will do the work. No one will take these jobs if they can get welfare or unemployment.

bloggit, The problem with your solution is that right now there really are not enough jobs for those who want them. My son recently applied for an IT position and there were 75 other applicants. My own company has recently laid off qualified people because of lack of demand. This is not a good time to cut people off from help when there may really be no alternative. Be happy if you have a job. Others may not be so lucky through no fault of their own.

wrong subthread

There are alot of Americans who work for minimum wage now and I wouldn't have minded working the fields or something when I was younger. I had worked in the fast food industry for minimum wage and stood for hours while moving quickly and also having to smile at people who I swear have a @!$%#ty life and just eat there so that they can try and belittle people without having to worry about the consequences. Picking tomatoes sounds kinda peaceful lol. I'm sure the farmers will have no trouble hiring college students as long as they atleast pay minimum wage. They were paying that much to the illegals before right?

Simple... American Citizens have to carry ID by law, and show them to the Police when asked. Why shouldn't everybody else have to do that?

one estimate figured as much one-fourth of the commercial building work force had left since the law was upheld last week, said Bill Caton, president of Associated General Contractors of Alabama. Commercial construction is a more than $7 billion-a-year industry in Alabama.

From the article - if commercial construction is a $7 BILLION dollar a year industry that relies on illegal immigrant (i.e. cheap labor), then those construction contractors can advertise in Alabama and neighboring states, and probably find plenty of experienced men for that work.

as for the agricultural workers, we should have a guest worker program for migrant workers - they should be paid a fair wage, and treated fairly. They could earn citizenship after working 'x' number of years.

I'd suggest we take the millions of dollars in subsidies and corporate welfare we give to multimillion dollar companies like Tyson, Conagra, Cargill, Monsanto, and others -- and allocate those funds to growers, so they can pay their workers (whether citizens or migrants) a living wage.

Come on MSNBC, if your going to write such a bleeding heart farce you could at least call them "undocumented workers". Otherwise, bravo on creating a story to fit your own agenda.

Just look at the "devastation" Arizona is suffering because their illegals left (sarcasm)... and they even had the anti-America criminal-sympathizer boycotts to deal with on top of it.

Go Alabama!

Anti-trust: You say...

"Can you live on a gross pay of $280-300 per week? That is what minimum wage would pay you. That is why people are still struggling while both adult family members are working two full-time jobs, plus as many part-time as they can secure. THAT is why other people can't find work.....it takes a minimum of two jobs, and usually three or four, to support a family of just three or four."

So you actually believe it is okay for illegals to NOT be making minimum wage? Really bad argument on your part...

In Alabama the crops will rot in the fields, you'll have to wait on yourself at McDonalds and your kids will have to take care of your landscaping. You'll have to clean your own house wash your own car clean out your own septic tank. Alabama will be the poster child for the law of unintended consequences.

wow, then alabama will be just like the rest of us rednecks that do all of these things for ourselves without the help of slave labor. another thing you might want to think about is that this kind of argument was made for not freeing the slaves. crops would rot in the fields, prices would sky rocket and everyone would starve if we didn't have slaves to do the work. i think that argument was pretty much discounted a loooong time ago. illegals are nothing more than the slave labor or the 21st century.

Alabama's strict new immigration law was touted as a job creation bill, a way to force illegal workers out of jobs and open them up for legal residents. Early indications are the plan is backfiring.

Sheeesh, another MSNBC article pinning Alabama's legislation in a very NEGATIVE way.

Yup, make the Illegal Aliens (Immigrants) the "oppressed".

When are we going to see an article which identifies ALL the problems (health care system, education system, court systems, prisons/jails, food stamps, housing, etc.) caused by ALL the Illegal Aliens (Immigrants) ? It would be interesting to see how much their TOTAL taxpayer costs is included in the States and Federal budgets.

Now, that would be an article to raise public awareness of the REAL Illegal Aliens (Immigrants) PROBLEMS, to be the platform for other States to mirror Alabama's legislation, and for the Federal government to really take action to SECURE THE DAD GUM BORDERS and then deal with those who are in our country ILLEGALLY and not just for political reasons.

Yep, here it comes from someone.....oh, they pay taxes every-time they purchase something. Or, they have human rights too. Or, their children were youngsters when their Illegal Alien (Immigrant) parents jumped the fence. Or, their children were born here and are American citizens. Or, their Illegal Alien (Immigrant) children are going to college on the States dime and they will make a positive impact on American society. Yeah, right.

AnaBanana stated: "This is racism and ethnic cleansing at its finest."

Ana, define "ethnic cleansing" for us please. You see, what causes problems is when you take a definition, and make it try and fit your agenda. Ana, get it straight, ethnic cleansing means getting rid of the whole minority, not just a few. The state isn't out to run off the legal citizens, just those who are here illegally. And how is it racism, when, ok, now try and follow what I had just stated about ethnic cleansing, that it is just the illegals that are here, and not the legal citizens? Nice try at the use of the race card though. You want the legal minorities to feel welcome, then knock of the race bantering garbage to stir up their emotions to get them scared. They have nothing to be afraid of, other than people such as yourself who want to make it a race issue.

wow, then alabama will be just like the rest of us rednecks that do all of these things for ourselves without the help of slave labor.

Aw, crap, SickandTired, you beat me to it....

In point of fact, the "landscaping" is the whole reason I had kids in the first place. :P

If I were among those likely to be targeted, I would leave Alabama and go elsewhere, where I am not likely to be detained.

See, that's the beauty of the "states as laboratories" concept. If you don't like the law in Alabama, you have 49 other states to choose from.

@Bean

You DO have to carry an ID at all times. Not just when driving. I have been ID'd over a noise complaint at my apartment in College. If I get ID'd when I do something "suspicious" or if I were to commit a crime then so should everyone else. Fair is fair.

Didn't you hear about the old white guy who was "acting suspiciously" aka walking around a building, and the cops put him in jail because he had no ID and refused to tell them who he was. It's the same thing. He was OLD and WHITE and SPOKE ENGLISH and yet they still had him in jail for a few weeks. It was all over the news. So don't act like it's some crime against hispanics!

The only ones trying to make this a racial issue are the ones breaking the law and their bleeding heart sympathizers. The rest of us are trying to make this an issue about obeying the law, going through the proper channels, and economics.

Michael...as someone else posted above.

You're arguing the same argument the South had for keeping slaves.

It proved to be total BS then and guess what...It's total BS now.

Christopher, let's be fair... The draconian laws are on the books, but usually if a dude with a badge is asking you for ID... You done effed up son. Truthfully, we are almost NEVER asked for ID (traveling post 911 excepted). Still, such laws ARE in fact in effect. We are a Nation of Laws, it behooves us all to at least be aware of them.

anti-trust, i'm from NW Ohio, Williams County area. What town did you grow up around?

Michael stated: "Each and everyone one you economic intellectuals will be on your knees begging these men and women to come back and pick your fruit, clean your houses, turn down your sheets in your hotel, cut your lawn, clean chickens, pigs, cattle for market and do every other job WE won't do."

You mean they would have to get up off of their dead lazy backsides and have to really fend for themselves? Imagine that, what a concept.

Let me just make 1 point about "economics" These companies pay slave wages to the hispanics because they CAN, NOT because they have to. Take for example

walmart vs costco

Walmart ceo salary Over $30,000,000/yr. Comes out to more in one hour then a typical walmart employee makes in a year at $8/hr

Costco CEO salary $3,000,000/ yr.

Average costco employee pay $17/hr

Walmart makes over $400 BILLION a year

Costco makes $70 BILLION a year

yet Costco can afford to pay it's employees $9/hr MORE than Walmart (which comes to an extra $18000 a year for a fulltime employee for a total of $34,000/yr versus the walmart employee who does the SAME job (cashier) for a TOTAL salary of $16,300/yr IF walmart gives them full-time which 9/10 times they don't.)

The CEO of Costco Is still able to pay himself more money in a year then most of us will make in 2 life times. After making sure his employees are taken care of.

Say a husband and wife both work at costco They're looking at a $68,000 a year income together, starting out. Not shabby at all.

It's all about GREED

Costco does it right! They make the money pay themselves a handsome salary and TAKE CARE of their employees!

Walmart and other companies like it do it wrong. They make money Pay themselves a yearly salary most of us would take 21 LIFETIMES to earn and force their employees to work for dirt and rely on welfare to subsidize their pay.

antitrust #1.8 - The illegals manage to live on minimun wages and so can legals, especially those just out of high school or those laid off (until they get better jobs).

And yes we will pay more for tomatoes, apples, if that is what it takes. You seem to have no faith in Americans doing whatever it takes to make better lives for themselves while at the same time accepting some of the burden to help others succeed.

David Walker, I have read you a LOT, and that is by far the most stupid and ignorant post you have made in at LEAST three months. Seriously dude, go back and reread that. I'll break it down for you if you want, but seriously.

I am a White Anglo Saxon male. I was born in the United States. I would not want to have to prove my citizenship every time I walked outside my home. I am not sure everyone realizes the problems these laws create for citizens of the United States. My own thoughts are you need to understand the Ponzi scheme we are running with Social Security. Those of you that would like to collect your Social Security should hope the Social Security Administration would set up offices on all boarder crossings and issue SSAN's to everyone that wants to come into the country. Tell them to get a job and start paying Social Security taxes so I can collect mine. Now if you really want to fix the problems we are having, go after all of the tax cheats in the United States. Offer a 20% reward of all taxes collected from tax cheats where a business pays wages under the table. Problem solved.

In Alabama the crops will rot in the fields, you'll have to wait on yourself at McDonalds and your kids will have to take care of your landscaping. You'll have to clean your own house wash your own car clean out your own septic tank. Alabama will be the poster child for the law of unintended consequences.

OMG people will have to take care of themselves? Prepare for mass starvation.

Social Security would be fne if we just paid it the interest due. BOTH parties robbed that sheet.

Guess what? Being an American Citizen isn't a joke.

It's a Godammned RESPONSIBILITY!!!!

Wake the Eff UP!

They used to say the same kind of thing about black people

Keith - Your Race card has been declined. Got anything else you could use?

Seriously, WTF are you even trying to say here?

And HAY! - Please quit collapsing AnaBannana, sure she's got a different opinion, But I'll Defend to The Death Her RIGHT to have it.

*HEY

Obviously

I mow my own yard and do my own house work. I don't need an illegal being paid under the table to do my work for me. I am a white middle aged single mother living 10 miles from the Alabama border. I will gladly drive the 10 miles to Alabama to pick tomatoes if it feeds my child. I have a college degree that has become worthless due to too many colleges lowering standards just to turn out printed pieces of paper saying someone sat in a class for X amount of time. I do not consider myself too good for any labor that feeds my child. Stop complaining that your illegals left and advertise for new LEGAL workers. This time check the id and social to make sure the workers you are hiring are LEGAL. This too will pass, and we will be better and stronger! Tomorrow I am going to drive to Alabama to look for a job.

No matter how educated, how experienced, how qualified, how hard-working, or how American I am, I should take that minimum wage job and be happy with it, if it's the only job left. This is the American Dream the Republicans are offering to me.

Vitriolenator, you did not really think Angela was going to give up Dr. Phil for a minimum wage job did you?

I love Angela!

Seriously, The Republicans say the right things then they Fukkxxor The US.

We need Hilary!!! If she doesn't Primary him, any Republican will win.

Now lets see how many Americans will line up to pick up tomatoes under 100F sun for $2/hr or less?. Or how many Americans are willing to pay the double for the price of the tomato?....

Let the good times begin.....!!!!!

We had a lot of good paying manufacturing jobs in America at one time but thanks to job killing bills like NAFTA they are gone.Who signed NAFTA?Mr Bill Clinton,that's who.My American dream went to Mexico when the steel mill in my town closed in 2000.I know,it's all Bush's fault as some of you uninformed cretins have told me before.

ok lets start with.... has ANYONE read the alabama law?

http://latindispatch.com/2011/06/09/text-of-alabama-immigration-law-hb-56/

No place in what I have read says they can stop you, outside of existing laws.

Section 12. (a) Upon any lawful stop, detention, or arrest......

You have to have done something to get stopped first. The ID requirement is ANY GOVERNMENT issued ID that requires proof of citizenship... I think CA may be one of the few that does not require a BC.

10) LAWFUL PRESENCE or LAWFULLY PRESENT. A person shall be regarded as an alien unlawfully present in the United States only if the person’s unlawful immigration status has been verified by the federal government pursuant to 8 U.S.C. § 1373(c)....... and there are parts a,b,c,d,e,f under part 10

to the argument of not having an ID... If you KNOW you are going to be asked for an ID.. when lawfully stopped... it is a good idea to have an ID. most adults carry some sort of ID.

ALL... if you think this law has something wrong... the link is above... read it and cite it. Don't tell us it picks on any ethnicity. Don't tell us it denies some basic right... they even have exclusions for emergencies and other things.. they can't even deny you food stamps, just cash. There are a whole list of penalties for those who hire or attempt to hire ILLEGALS. That doesn't sound racist to me.

Charles..Amen. Nice piece of yellow journalism. Funny, MY farm and MY construction company are not having these issues in Alabama.

Do you have some work for those poor protesters on wall street, they claim to need work.

Good--- now the unscrupulous employers will have to particpate in a TRUE free market, where everyone plays by the same set of rules--- YOU MUST HIRE ONLY LEGAL WORKERS! You will now have to pay a true market wage--- a LIVING WAGE and BENEFITS to American citizens and LEGAL IMMIGRANTS!

These lawbreaking employers and the media have some chutzpah--- YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO HIRE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS! HIRE AMERICAN CITIZENS or LEGAL immigrants ONLY!

Stories like this that imply some entitlement to break the law that DOES NOT ACTUALLY EXIST are obnoxious and stomach-turning!

"My husband and I take them to the grocery store at night and shop for them because they are afraid they will be arrested," she said..

Only if they are ILLEGAL will they be arrested, or if they break some other law of course.

People spouting this "they are scared" BS, are liars just like cops, judges, and politicians.

How Terrible that people here ILLEGALLY might get caught! [/sarcasm]

Seriously, Illegals suck off our Great Country like Ticks. They get Stronger while We grow weaker. Out with them ALL.

These businesses in this story cavorting with criminal aliens need to have their owners arrested and the business and its assets seized. That should be the next law punish the clowns aiding and abetting this invasion.

Some of you people don't seem to be able to put yourselves into the shoes of the those targeted by this law. Even if you are legal there WILL be an assumption you aren't - it happens ALL the time. Why would anybody want to be looking over their shoulder wondering when they would be harassed - which they will be. It happens to black men all of the time too. Time will tell what the fallout from this law will be, but like most things it will have unintended consequences.

Hey I think Trust_Verify has pretty much Trust_Verified your arguments right the Eff out of existence. What else you got?

herman 1.53 - What planet do you live on? $2/hr for picking tomatoes? Your typical liberal knee jerk reaction, without merit, is showing through.

You are absolutely right!WalMart hired Illegals to work a shipping dock at their Loveland,Co warehouse.The INS had two different raids,and arrested many of the same people twice!That was over 15 years ago.Now,they probably own their own Congressman that keeps the Feds at bay.Illegals are a problem in itself,and open borders pose a much more dangerous problem.Our borders will someday allow Iran to slip in a dirty bomb and use it in Chicago,or New York City.It's only a matter of time before this happens.Too bad it's greed that allows it to happen.

Who said they have 'good' jobs? There's plenty of @!$%# work in other states for them to leave to.

If they are here illigally, then they are not paying taxes and getting benefits paid for by tax payers.

Farmer Chad Smith said his family farm stands to lose up to $150,000 because there are not enough workers to pick tomatoes spoiling in the fields.

"We will be lucky to be in business next year," he said.

Then pay a better wage, hire more people and raise your price a little. Then you won't lose $150,000. Hiring illegals, not paying payroll taxes wasn't the right plan to begin with.

I am not going to get into an argument about this law, it might help or it might hurt our country.

The laws we really need to enforce are laws that ban political and corporate corruption in the United States. When those laws are enacted and/or enforced we might really be able to get this country back on track.

So far, few legal residents have stepped in to fill any of the vacancies

That's because our country pays them to sit on their butts and earn unemployment. Quit extending benefits and they'll take the jobs.

Kind of funny...Everyone whines about illegals taking jobs, but almost nary a word when it comes to corporations outsourcing to China and India. If the place I work and live in start to behave like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union, I'd be finding the exit myself, along with anyone else with half a brain.

Illegal immigration isn't the problem...it's a symptom. And our government has tried half-baked home remedies (border fence, anyone?) to fix it. There are jobs out there, but it seems that unless it pays 50K a year, plus perks, then why bother? You can chase out every illegal in the country, but it won't solve a single thing. Alabama and Georgia, among other states shouldn't expect any sympathy...they got what they wanted, now they should live with it.

When all of this sorts itself out, the result will be more Americans working, fewer illegal workers, less welfare, better wages for Americans, and less social conflict. Will prices increase a little - yes, but it will be worth it.

Small price to pay for finally enforcing our laws.

I tried to get field piece-work when I was a teen but I wasn't Mexican and I didn't speak Mexican so they weren't even interested. I even had transportation available so I could get to the job site but not even a call back. My sons both tried to get work during high school too but all they could get was house sitting for friends. There are a lot of teens out there willing to work if you give them a chance and make it clear what is expected of them but you also need to advertise where they are. A lot of them don't even bother looking for work any longer. Good luck advertising in the schools though. All the lib teachers would probably pull down the flyers because the teens would be taking work away from the illegals.

Things will eventually work out in Alabama. There will be some farmers who have to close their business because they can't figure out how to earn a living without breaking the law. If the law holds up and is able to be enforced there will plenty of changes. Some good and some bad. Whatever the outcome is the important thing will be that the law is being followed. Apparently all this law does is arrest people who are breaking the law in the first place. It amazes me the amount of people who conveniently overlook this fact. They whine and demonize other people's statements but ignore the fact that their arguement is balancing on the fact that the illegal immigrants are breaking the law. It's not rocket science. Breaking the law is wrong. Think about it this way; you are saying "breaking the law is okay as long as I don't have to pay too much for my tomatoes or cut my own grass".

Shame on you people with that attitude. If maintaining the status quo means breaking law then the present circumstances are wrong. We will be better off after the growing pains of adjusting to what is and has always been right.

Are you required to produce ID?

http://www.pixiq.com/article/are-you-required-to-produce-id-if-a-cop-demands-it

this should help decide that question.

Let's see, Alabama turning itself into a police state to persecute a minority. How completely precedented...

Some are trying to make this into a chicken or the egg arguement, which is irrelevant. Tomatoes, for example, should've always affordable within the confines of working legal Americans doing the work as the illegals were and are that; illegal. It shouldn't have ever been allowed.

The market would have dictated pricing, so perhaps farmers wouldn't have made as much profit.... or, one positive outcome would have been that smaller farms would've been the norm instead of one tainted bull or tomato becoming losses in the hundreds of millions due to massive corporate farming. Either way, it would've worked itself out and we still wouldn't be paying $6 a lb. for tomatos.

Where I live roofers make an average of $10 - $14 and up per hour. It's considered skilled. They work hard, some drink hard after and consider it a stand up job, especially in today's economy. Market still dictates prices, and no one is paying $1000's more for their roofs... it's competitive.

Minimum wage jobs were never intended for living wages; they are starters, extra income, and good experience for students. And, no... non were intended to be nor should be 12 hour plus days. That's why most are part time, more workers less hours. I'm pretty sure anything over 12 isn't legal, at least here in Ohio.

For those out of work, as I was for some time, unemployment for several years now has covered 2 plus years; this is plenty of time to be doing whatever's necessary to get back to some type of work, even if it sucks (mine does, but am gratefull for the work). It's plenty of time to find something, doing whatever research, education, or even vocational training to get at least a $10 - $12 hr. job, which I know of people doing this while their spouse is making minimum wage, and this averages to about $18 hr. . They're surviving.

There's little to say about profiling; of course it is. More Spanish signs than English in some areas and states, and what... about 14 million suspected illegals? What are authorities to do, stop Asians or black Americans, caucasians... while looking for the 14 million Hispanics? When this topic came up some time ago, Mexican Americans I know from my area said they'd be glad to show ID, as they pay into the same system as any other legal American and aren't happy about illegals, either, as it diminishes what they've accomplished and are proud of... being American. They don't consider it harrassment, but a necessary inconvenience. What they hey else can be done?

The problem was allowed to grow to this proportion; thank the Repubs for the greed of cheap labor and the Dems for greed of votes. Some would like a perfect answer that offends none, but we are where we are and there simply isn't one. Politicians from both sides of the aisle, greed in all forms of industry created the problem we have to deal with.

Some would like amnesty across the board, but that's just not possible; Mexico knowingly allowed many of it's less than desireables, criminal sorts to cross the border.... less trouble for them to deal with. And, no.... that's not a general statement of 'Mexicans are bad'... it's simply fact. They did.

Weed out the illegals, strengthen the borders, and have all go through the legitmate, all be it more lengthy process, and do this in a manageable fashion.

So far, few legal residents have stepped in to fill any of the vacancies,

The few that stepped in don't appear to be too proud to fill the jobs left vacant by their compadres. When the remainder who have been out of work get hungry enough rest assure they will step in also. Loyalty to a cause only goes so far if one has a family to take support. I see no harm in giving a pay increase to someone that is here legally. If they get payed better they might appreciate the benefits and support Alabama's new law. It's in their best interest, and Obama had nothing to do with it.

Farmers don't control their prices, the markets do. If they can't pick the produce for a cost that will allow them to make a profit at current market prices, then they are better off letting the produce rot in the fields. If the market is based on cheaper illegal labor, then the price paid for tomatoes in the market will reflect that. If one farmer wants double the price to pay his help, then guess what happens to his tomatoes? It is an unfortunate consequence of the need to turn things around. The shortage will eventually drive the prices up, but that won't happen until it is too late to help the farmers who had to leave their produce in the fields. It is a slow process but eventually things will work themselves out. Its the law of economics. Supply and demand. The same story applies to construction, yard work, house cleaning and so on. People will eventually pay what it takes or do it themselves. In the meantime people are going to suffer. It is a two step process. First you have to force out the illegals who keep wages low and then you have to give the markets enough time to recover and reach a new balance. Unfortunately, having illegal workers in the neighboring states will complicate the recovery for Alabama. If the tomatoes in Georgia are cheaper because they are picked by illegals, then guess what impact that has on the market for tomatoes in Alabama? Yep, problems again next year, too.

To: CV-389997

No doubt, Their is a company called Raymow in the Tampa, Florida area, i had several friends and my sons all applied there for work, all of which were turned down because they could not speak spanish.

Raymow Enterprizes, a lawn maintenence company**

Jim,

The problem with your statement "they are breaking the law" is that the law is unfair and inhumane, and the way it is being applied is racist (racial-profiling), and the consequences it is producing and would produce if it ever were to be applied nationwide, are devastating. Lets review history: before the civil war, when slavery was legal and the law required that runaway slaves were to be captured and returned to their owners, under your reasoning the law then had to be followed because a runaway law had "broken the law". Well, I believe the opposite; I believe that slavery laws were unfair, unjust. I believe that even though it was against the law in those days, a runaway slave had inherent rights to pursue freedom and a decent life. Eventually, slavery was outlawed, but it would never have had if not for the pressure of those breaking the law and only after a terrible war. In the same way now any person, be it a documented or undocumented immigrant ( I refuse to use the word "illegal" for a human being can never be illegal) should have the right to pursue liberty, life and happiness, regardless of there they were born, just as all those millions of immigrants that arrived from Europe in the 1800's and early 1900's also poor, without documents, not even a passport, not knowing English, illiterate, maybe with tb, and that were probably your ancestors and the ancestors of many that here renegade against immigration. Sometimes I would wish that the government could deport the 12-million+ undocumented immigrants (though I know it is physically impossible) just so that you guys can witness what would happen to the economy. Think of it: the impact to the cost of produce, the delays in construction industry, the impact in the housing industry with less rental-occupation, the impact on all sort of consumer and retail business. Believe me, it will deepen the recession. You guys will be begging them back in less than 90 days.

If you wish to change the law, there is a way to do that.

Meanwhile...... FOLLOW THE LAW!!!

You are not so fortunate that you can choose which laws to follow.

Racial profiling is usually very close to being common sense. If there were a ton of 90 yr old grandmothers that were bombing people, then we would be strip searching 90 yr old grandmothers. But guess what?

Alil,

"Racial profiling is usually very close to being common sense." ???!!!

Are you saying that you agree with racial profiling? Do you agree then that police profile against blacks driving their cars and stopping them for no reason? Very sad. Shame on you.

Floridian, your premise and your presentation are an obvious DELIBERATE DECEPTION

He is standing on private property. That changes everything. You knew this, and you still chose to post as if this somehow negated the points of previous posters. They never chose to bring up the issue of private vs public property. The Laws are quite different, as I am sure you are aware. Why is it that you try to slide by an apples vs oranges comparison? Dummy.

Randy # 1.78 -

Unfortunately, having illegal workers in the neighboring states will complicate the recovery for Alabama.

Then the domino effect is in order. The states next door need to follow Alabama's lead, it's only fair the the folks that are here legally. Eventually the country can get back to a state of reality, and make life here better for everyone. Mexico needs to fix their own problems, we can't be the worlds welfare haven.

Good comment, voted up.

I admit error. He was standing on Public property. I still say to anybody, Floridian included, give me a zip code and I will tell you the exact statute that says you MUST carry ID.

Foriegn Atty, I believe if we are being attacked by hot blonde chicks, we should start strip searching hot blonde chicks. That's what I call common sense, not racial profiling. Do you understand that?

Note to MSNBC: It sounds to me as if the new law IS working. Whatever your editorial take is on the situation, illegal aliens are being removed from the workforce and probably the state. That's the intention of the law.

Foreign Attorney,

The early settlers who came here, worked hard and had to scrape to get by during lean times. When my ancestors arrived in the 1600's, many were farmers too. Back then they did not have laws regarding "citizenship", because it was a new land. They also did not have programs for people to sit on. If you didn't pull your weight you went hungry. That only made us stronger and more resilient. I think the main problem with (not all) immigrants today is that they take advantage of our already flawed system and resources and suck what they can out of it without contributing, this is obviously not fair to the people who have worked hard their whole lives. Life isn't fair, but to draw the race card every time an immigrant does not respect our laws is unfair. The laws were put in place to help keep the American citizens safe from criminals who may be trying to come here.

Your comment concerning "begging them back after 90 days" ......Try Never

I wonder how many illegals are working at MSNBC.

Joanne, you will not admit this, but you also wish you could send some other folks back to Africa. The race argument (not a card) is used because in its application, the Ala. law is profiling against hispanics. However, there are millions of undocumented immigrants from Canada, Europe, Asia, and Africa. Against the first two, barely anything is being done. That is racism.

JCLP..(#1.40)..."Costco does it right!"

"Costco's 4Q profit up, will hike fees"

Costco 4Q profit rises but margins disappoint; will raise membership fees in November"

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Costcos-4Q-profit-up-will-apf-2420649159.html?x=0

"Wal-Mart tops list of charitable cash contributors,"

"• The biggest cash contributor was Wal-Mart, the largest company in the U.S. It gave $288.1 million in 2009. (The discount-store chain stepped up its commitment to charity even more in May, when it announced a $2 billion, five-year pledge to fight hunger.)"

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/2010-08-08-corporate-philanthropy-interactive-graphic_N.htm

Costco didn't make the list.....Exxon Mobile did, however....That evil Oil Company !!!!

Foriegn attorney, how typical of you. When your argument fails, you pull out the race card. Shame on you! You need to check yourself.

Your race card is DECLINED!

Shame on you!

Alil, you are the one that wrote that "racial profiling is usually very close to being common sense." Look at your own comment #1.81. YOUR argument failed. Shame on YOU.

My comment stands as valid on it's own merits. What have you got?

The lessons of History. You cannot deport 14 million+ people. It is impossible, and inconvenient for the economy.

Bull. It creates jobs in oh so many ways.

Foriegn attorney, I think the lessons of history do not say the things you think they say. We CAN deport those people. And if we are smart..... WE WILL!

It's a classic example of a shortage of resources. Put 4 flour bugs in 1 gallon pitcher of flour. At first, they all live well and eat the flour, and they reproduce like crazy. As time passes, and as the flour dies out, they kill each other on sight. It's an instictive reaction to a change in the environment... in this case, a shortage of resources. It's natural. Why should you think that animals like you and me won't have a similiar reaction to diminishing resources?

So the Alabama economy will suffer because there's not a high enough unemployment rate among American citizens in Alabama to make up for the loss of illegal alien criminals that are not supposed to be there and are not legally allowed to work there?

I guess Alabama must be an economic paradise, a model for the rest of the nation.

BTW, why isn't the federal government suing Alabama over this law? That worked here in Arizona. Some of our illegals left when our law first passed, but most of them came back when the feds struck it down. And hundreds more cross the Mexican border every day. So we're in good shape here, we have more than enough illegals to do the work that 9.1% of unemployed American citizens don't want to do because it's just too darn hard and it pays just too darn little.

@Mike In Delray

I'm guessing you didn't take a minute to read that article you posted and you just saw the big bold headline.

1.) Costco is increasing it's membership fee for the first time in YEARS the article clearly states costco almost never increases its membership cost.

2.) Costco's new membership fee will be the same as what sam's club (owned by walmart) has been for years.

"Walmart is the most charitable blah blah"

$288 million really? Lets see here.

Say hypothetically Walmart used that $288 million (.00072%) of one year's profits...Not even one one hundredth of one percent of what they earn per year.. wow big spenders.

If A guy makes $50,000 a year and he gives the same percentage of his income to charity as walmart, someone's going to be getting $36.. hahaha

Anyways say they used it to give as many of their employees the same increase in wage that costco has had for their employees ($17/hr) for years... They would still not be able to pay the same number of their employees what costco pays.

Simple answer for Alabama,

Alabama has made cost studies on what illegals cost the tax payers so now all the Alabama Politicians need to do is project those savings into subsidies for the Farmer and Packing Industries targeted to raise the workers hourly wages and health insurance.

This allows Alabama to control the use of tax payer benefits by illegal aliens but it puts those savings to work along with legal Alabama workers making a acceptable wage. If their projects are correct concerning the costs of illegals to the economy this should be a win/win situation for Alabama Tax Payers as well as the legal unemployed citizen of Alabama.

The law is driving away many construction workers, roofers and field hands who do backbreaking jobs Americans generally won't.

Come on man.. look at a great point in the article.. Americans are so freaking lazy. I am ashamed to be here sometimes with these people who all seem they are too good to do laymen work. If you need money to supoort your life and family your going to work. Stop mooching off us tax paying people say this crazy government we have can feel sympathetic and give you all my money for free. I done my share of back breaking jobs, im lucky to have an easy one now.

So, we're supposed to feel bad for businesses that became successful by breaking the law and hiring illegals, because now they're having a hard time filling those jobs.

Well, guess what. If you'd followed the law from day one, you wouldn't have this problem.

Then we're supposed to feel bad for the illegals because they're scared to go out in public.

Crack dealers are afraid to go out in public too.

When I'm running 90 down the freeway I'm nervous about cops.

Here's a clue. Only criminals need worry about getting in trouble if they're seen in public.

JCLP....

If a $10.00 ID is too much for poor folks to pay to be able to vote....certainly a $55.00 or $110.00 Annual Club Fee will be out of the question for poor folks.....so Costco deliberately discriminates against minorities and the elderly on fixed incomes....Keeping them from buying in bulk at a discount......They don't want the riff-raff and the creepy old goats making their "Club Members" uncomfortable.....Pretty good strategy for keeping flash-mob teen shoplifters out of the store though.....

Mike

The point I am making is they take care of their employees paying them $9/hr more then walmart although walmart brings in $400 billion vs Costcos $70 billion which is a $330 billion difference yet walmart pays their employees $9/hr less.

The CEO of walmart makes in one year what someone who makes $50,000 a year working for 40 years would take 15 lifetimes to earn.

You bring up walmart and their donation to charity (less than one one-thousandth of one percent of what they bring in every year) Costco helps way more people by paying their employees a live-able wage.

(which costs them much more than all of walmarts charitable donations.)

That's all. I Don't care about who shops there I don't care about who their target market is.

I care how they treat their employees when they are a comparable company to walmart who treats their employees like @!$%#.

Try getting full time work at walmart. Doesn't happen. Yet they're the single largest employer in America. 1.4 MILLION Americans work for Walmart.

How'd you like to be a farmer now that your only supply of experienced willing labor is drying up?

Do you really think pampered Anglo kids are willing to do the kind of work they've never been exposed to, and cannot do?

Get ready for shortages of produce and higher prices. Nice going, white supremacists!

AZPADDY

Every year at my high school in Michigan hundreds of "pampered Anglo kids" volunteer to do work they "cannot do" as you say. They head out into the fields and do just fine. So yes I think they'll be just fine.

Right. I'm sure they have experience in harvesting crops and working farm machinery.

Nice try.

Plenty of people who will go out and Harvest crops. As soon as we get rid of the illegals... run your rhetoric all you fricking want.... When the illegals are gone, people WILL do those jobs.

By the way... I see the illegals who are doing ALL of the house building... I see it EVERY @!$%#ing day!!.........

Foreign Attorney, it has been said that "good fences make good neighbors". There has to be borders and laws. Look at what has happened when people simply cross the border and start taking from a welfare system that they don't contribute to. If you are an attorney you above all people should understand the ramifications of disobeying laws at will. It starts with one and by your count we are up to 14 million I believe.

The US is a great nation but we have our own problems. The people who have been hiring illegals now depend on the illicit profits that they have become accustomed to each year. The agricultural industry is going to have to adjust and there will be growing pains. The farmers are complaining that this will put them out of business. How many businesses would still be operating next year if each American got to violate one law and get away with it. A lot of people have been saying it already but the farmers were wrong for underpaying the illegal workers and definitely wrong for not paying the payroll taxes. That is Amerians cheating Americans.

cmach #1.107

"By the way... I see the illegals who are doing ALL of the house building... I see it EVERY @!$%#ing day!!........"

Wow. What powers of observation!!

The people you deem "illegals" are simply Mexican Americans you THINK are illegal because they're brown.

I guess we can add WWB (working while brown) to DWB (driving while brown) to the list of crimes we can now be detained for.

God...the ignorance is SO rampant.....

AZPaddy, that is part of the problem. There are so many illegal workers here that hispanics that are here legally are taking a lot of heat for it. The thing is the hispanics here that are legal or Americans should be just as angry for having to support the illegals with our taxes. I don't have a whole lot in this world and especially this economy. It takes all that I make to pay the bills and save a little for old age. Of course it makes me angry to think of someone drawing welfare who doesn't put into it. I deserve it more than an illegal immigrant. A little extra money would help me pay one or two bills off and allow me some breathing room. The same could be said for most everyone on this site.

I understand your anger and I understand mine and everyone else's anger. Aren't you in least angry at the illegals sneaking into America? You may well not be, I am just curious as to your reasoning.

Hey Azpaddy. I know for a fact they are illegal. I speak to them every day... they tell me...They are nice people But, they are still illegal.

I live here @!$%#... I see it every day of my life. So @!$%# off with your attitude. You don't have a clue.

Jim

I'm not blind to illegal immigration, but the idea that they come to the U.S. to enroll in welfare programs is simply untrue. They also don't register to vote, or commit crimes in any greater percentage than any other groups.

I'm not thrilled with illegal immigration, but they typically take unskilled jobs such as landscape work, hotel housekeeping and restaurant kitchen work.

But, they ARE a very handy target for the hatred and prejudice that resides just under the skin for many people. Conservative politicians like AZ. lawmaker Russell Pearce and Governor Jan headless body Brewer have honed the skill to exploit that hatred into election winning campaigns, while paving the way for private prisons to really rip us off.

cmach: LOL! Whatever....

AZPaddy, I appreciate you reply. I don't think that most of them come over here with idea of getting welfare but I think it works out that way a lot. Perhaps we should agree to disagree on that point.

I do know firsthand how they can undercut Americans on jobs. This is just one experience I witnessed personally so obviously I am not claiming that this one particular outcome is true across the board. One of my buddies is a carpenter and as you know the economy is tight right now. When we go out and about he always keeps one eye open for possible work. Whie we were in one new neigborhood he stopped at a construction site where he knew someone. He asked about getting a job putting roofs on new houses. His other friend flat out told him that the Mexican workers would do it at a cut throat rate. I honestly forget what the rate was and even then I had to ask if it was a fair price. My buddy was wanting about 2 1/2 times more money to do it. He said he was asking for a fair price but almost nobody can compete with the Mexican price. Once again, that is just one experience out of many. But if you give me enough credit to tell the truth you can see how this can be hurting the American worker on a larger scale.

Jim, the problem you just illustrated is very common and happens also in the manufacture industry, which is why everything we buy now is made in China and not here anymore. The compensation an American seeks for its work is extremely much higher than an immigrant worker in the U.S. or a manufacture worker in China because the American worker's lifestyle has established through out the years certain basic necessities that are not matched by the foreign workers who have much less demands. The American worker seeks what he considers a decent lifestyle; the chinese factory worker or the immigrant working in the farms is satisfied with just a survival wage. Add to that other expenses demanded by the American worker such as worker's comp, medical insurance, paid vacation, liability insurance and on and on and you can understand why the American worker cannot compete against the immigrant nor the chinese factory worker and why jobs are being sent overseas. Solution? Hell, that will demand pages of analysis not fit for this forum.

The solution is another 'Operation Werback' like Ike instituted. Between 1.5 and 2 million illegals were sent home. I say do it again.

Jim #1.113

Oh I know all too well the effect that the undocumented have had on prices paid for labor. Labor prices have flat-lined to the point that skilled trades are being paid 1980's wages.

It's documented fact that we Americans seek out the lowest price for goods and services, and the free market that conservatives worship as their God, responds accordingly.

As long as business (another conservative deity) has access to labor they can exploit, we will have these new immigrants. I know of an elderly man in CA. who is as conservative as they come, and owns many commercial properties in my area. He regularly sends me rightwing political viral e-mails condemning president Obama, illegal immigration, "Liberal" atrocities etc., yet when seeking repairs / renovations to his properties, contacts me and others openly asking if I can line up any "Mexican nationals" to do the work, in order to "hold costs down".

Of course these same businesses that seek out and exploit undocumented immigrants for the lower wages they accept, simply skirt the laws by "outsourcing". Ever wonder how Home Depot AND Lowes can offer to install carpet in your entire home for $97.00??

Ya think it has anything to do with the fact that the installers who arrive at your home speak little to no English?? These large national chains owned and operated by ultra-conservatives (in the case of Home Depot) skirt the laws by contracting with independent companies who in turn hire the lowest cost labor they can find - those hated "illegals".

So I have little patience when hearing whiners like #1.115 complain about "Wet-Backs" while I'm sure Home Depoit C.E.O.s and the like are among his conservative heroes. As a third generation Arizonan, I can assure you these "illegals" are not the problem our hateful anti-immigrant fellow Americans claim they are. The real culprits are the businesses and politicians they support that use these immigrants as a means to enrich themselves while pandering to the prejudice that many harbor for those darker than them.

Nothing lays bare the real reason behind Arizona's SB 1070 anti-immigrant law better than the very illuminating link from an NPR investigation earlier this year:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130833741

Please take the time to read the article, and then ask yourself: Who are the real criminals here?

Foreign attorney

I appreciate your thoughtful comments in an otherwise cesspool of racially charged epithets.

The issue of undocumented immigration is as complicated as any other national issue, yet the cause is of our own making. I find the hatred and ignorance of our fellow Newsviners appaling, as they find license to vent their hatred. That license is supplied by pandering politicians who have become expert at exploiting the prejudice of their base.

In AZ. we have vstate senate president Russell Pearce: http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/profiling-arizona-legislator-russell

Governor Jan headless body Brewer: http://tucsoncitizen.com/three-sonorans/2010/09/06/jan-brewer-under-influence-of-prison-state-lobbyists-video/

With elected officials like these.....who needs straw-men enemies??

Who are you to call me a whiner AZPADDY. I agree that people who employ illegals should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I even think that their businesses should be seized. I also think that anyone who comes to this country illegally should be labeled a criminal, since they in fact are one by breaking the law when they came here. I have some liberal views and some conservative views, so I do not belong to either the Democans nor the Republicats. They are both essentially owned by corporations anyway. I also think that corporate executives should not make more than say 100 times their lowest paid employee. I have many varied views on a wide range of topics. So I do not admire people like the Koch brothers. So before you start throwing out names and accusing people of things, male sure you know the facts dkhead.

AZPADDY I guess the one good thing about your sources is they make no effort to hide their BIAS. Get back to us when you can provide factual reporting sources. Talk about being a hypocrite. You run off at the virtual mouth about racially charged and then dump those crappy links.

trust_verify

"Crappy links"??

What in the NPR investigative article was not true? Did it not include responses from Russell Pearce? The governor's office was asked to be included, but....declined. Hmmmm.

" I guess the one good thing about your sources is they make no effort to hide their BIAS."

"My" sources?? I wish. NPR is recognized as one of the most unbiased sources of news and information in the nation.

"You can lead a conservative to knowledge, but you can't make em' think."

(Unknown)

Gary S. Cook #1.118

" male (SIC) sure you know the facts dkhead"

Rrrright back atcha, Putz!

which link to you think is npr?

Russell Pearce: http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/profiling-arizona-legislator-russell

Governor Jan headless body Brewer: http://tucsoncitizen.com/three-sonorans/2010/09/06/jan-brewer-under-influence-of-prison-state-lobbyists-video/

looks like tuscon citizen..newspaper and crooksandliars.com
I could be mistaken but those are YOUR links. I think you have to agree that NPR has a certain leaning. I'll give you that politicians tend to be "bought". What does that have to do with this particular thread about Alabama Law on this matter? We would presume that those hiring ILLEGALS would spend money to keep this law off the books more than others would lean to create the law.

trust

You know the NPR link is in # 1.116, so I won't waste my time in circular arguments with you or anyone else.

Read the links. They prove Arizona's SB 1070 law is really private prisons legislation and A.L.E.C. is at work in states across the country, pushing immigration laws for profit.

That includes Alabama. You're on your own from here, Pal.

I'd say that is the pot calling the kettle black AZPADDY. Douche.

AZPADDY I was not looking at your 116 as it was not directed at my comment. Again I ask why is it that when either side runs out of facts, even if questionable, they resort to name calling. I am not your Personal A$$ Licker AZP. That I've got you angry is sad. I'm not so stupid or pig headed that I'm not open to listening to the other side but they've got to say something reasonable instead of getting their panties all up in a bunch. I just have a hard time believing a conspiracy theory when it involves more than just a few questionable characters. It's next to impossible to keep that sort of secret with so many involved. Next thing you will be claiming is we never landed on the moon and Apollo 18 was real.

trust

On a side note: 66 comments here?? Really? I thought I spent too much time on Newsvine.

Wow.......

LOL freedom of speech :) A few hours here and there adds up. I wasn't counting. But back to the topic.

I hope you're getting paid......;)

I wish I was getting paid... especially with some of the insults sent my way. "you're a cold heartless SOB" seems to be the favorite. My general response is facts are heartless and tend to be cold. Stating facts and reality don't make one heartless, just a realist.

Anyone who thinks that ILLEGAL immigrants don't get benefits ILLEGALLY is kidding themselves. Obama's aunt anybody? And they get foodstamps, WIC and free education LEGALLY. Thats our tax dollars. Add in the way they drive down the average wage for American Citizens.... They are Killing us!

Yes they are killing our economy. I say another operation werback. in addition, any company that employs them will have their company siezed just like they do when they sieze assets while busting people for drugs. Then sell the assets for a profit. This includes companies such as Tyson and other meat companies. They also need to go after the big builders, and anyone else who employs them. Additionally, the executives at the companies will receive mandatory prison time of 3-5 years, as well as a forfiture of all of their assets. This would stop them all from employing illegals. We also need to increase the amount of visas strictly for farm workers, and not ones for people like Gates who wanted an increase to use to bring on engineers and technicians so that he could pay them less. Other than the farm workers visas, we need to restrict visas for other right now to Doctors amd possibly nurses. There are enough computer people to fill all the needs of this country for a while. Nor do we need engineers since there are many that are unemployed now. Granted, we might need a few in certain engineering fields.

If we implemented such measures, many illegals would self deport and the rest could be found and sent back to their country of origin.

...who do backbreaking jobs Americans generally won't. So far, few legal residents have stepped in to fill any of the vacancies, creating an absence...

Cut welfare benefits to able-bodied recipients, and they'll come begging for work. Any work, even for minimum wage. But as long as they're getting paid for nothing, nothing will happen.

Then it will be VERY interesting to see how long the farmers go without adequate farmworkers to bring in the crops; how long the construction crews go without adequate people to get the jobs done...

I do NOT doubt that people need jobs. How long will it be before we stop bitching and start doing the work that once wasn't so beneath us?

No they won't. I know from experience that those types of people won't last even if they do get the job. When I first moved to the USVI, there was a letter to the editor in one of the two local newspapers talking about the "foreigners" who work hard to support themselves while locals sat on their stoops complaining about no jobs.....if they can't get rich off of selling drugs or guns, then it isn't "worth their time". We tried workfare once before, and no one can tell me why that still isn't enforced. It was supposed to be two years maximum on welfare, while you received training for a job. The problem turned out (I think) that the jobs they were being trained for just weren't there after they completed the training.....or they couldn't pass the written exams, or the drug test, etc.

Exactly.......who did these jobs before? Americans did them. They want workers for cheap is all.

Americans haven't been doing many of those jobs for years, and in the case of the field workers, for decades. It has been migrant workers doing that work for at least 60 years now. I know, I'm 67 and they were in the fields during my childhood.

Having been a history minor in college...the same things you read in the article was exactly the same things they were saying after the War of Northern Aggression. These SOB's are still looking for the cheapest (free) labor they can get and would use slavery again if they were given half the chance.

Feel sorry for them...nope. If they have a family...get them out there to work. If the owner is that concerned...he can get out there in the fields.

Real wages have been stagnant for decades. Part of the reason is that illegals have been willing to work for so little. Employers just might have to share some of the record profits they've been making and pay their workers a little more than they have been for the last 25 years.

You have minimum wage for now... wait until the next time there is a Republican in the white house. You think minimum wage will stick?

After LBJ's Great Society started paying Americans not to work, they quit working. Illegals then started flooding in to do those jobs. Now liberals, whose policies caused this problem in the first place, don't want to face up to what they did, and do the obvious things needed to correct their mistake.

Never pay people for not working because there will always be plenty of people who will take you up on that deal. Root hog, or die, is an old country saying that's as true today as it ever was. If the choice is work or starve, most people will work.

john - spot on ! The libs will be crying and whining about this ad nauseum. Sheep bleating BAA BAA BAA

Farming in Alabama will fail, most Americans can't and won't do the job for minimum wage. Sure, farmers could raise their prices and pay their employee's more, but that won't work. If they raise their prices too high, supermarkets will simply buy produce from other countries, or other states.

The economy is not as straight forward as people think it is. Right or wrong, illegal immigrants are our cheap labor force. Everyone assumes they will be replaced by legal Americans, but it is more likely the jobs will simply be outsourced.

I wouldn't work for a wage that wouldn't support my family so you idiots that think folks should be happy with minimum wage are just so out of touch with reality that I suspect that you are drug users or transcendental meditators or some other kind of dreamer.

Tomato farmer stands to lose $150K because he was used to paying for near-slave labor?

here's a solution to breaking the law

hc290-tomato-harvester

It's called automation...fascinating thing called industrialization where unskilled, repetitive labor can be replaced by machines and the fixed cost paid off over time by profiting in volume!

Taxpayers_will_even_subsidize_the_purchase

This is the thing that aggravates me, "Jobs Americans won't do" is code for "Jobs Americans won't do for slave wages"

This farmer, much like a lot of other illegal immigrant apologists think that the US basically should have never ended slavery, that this country cannot get by without a shadow-class of working slaves.

The real game in town is that employers just get to save a boatload of money because they don't have to face labor disputes, worry about worker's comp for injuries, AND they don't have to pay a competitive market wage or even report the work on their tax returns....it's something I like to call CHEATING THE SYSTEM

If we're going to pity the illegal immigrant, let us pity the ones that flee to the US to escape tyranny and mistreatment, not to simply exploit a massive exchange rate difference between two currencies, and fleece the social systems and government loopholes to live under the radar and send boatloads of cash home to family, whilst dreaming of taking one's savings and leaving for home to live like a patron.

I want people who want to be American. If you have the urge to hyphenate your lineage with anything other than an ethnicity or race; you're not sufficiently American for me (African-American = OK, Latino-American = OK, Mexican-American = NOT OK)!

I agree. We are The Great Melting Pot

If you want to stay with your national heritage, go back there.

If you want to be part of THE Greatest Nation ever....

Melt IN Mother Effers!

(And get rid of all those other nation Flags)

Melt Into The Melting Pot!

Taziar

Ask the ILLEGALS how much they make an hour... er DAY.. understand they claim it is a 12 hour day. Presume 7 per hour they should be making $84 and after tax roughly $60 give or take. IF they make that it equates to 1200 a month... barely a living wage .. they might even make 1440 if they work 7 days a week for a month (4 weeks) Problem is they don't make that sort of money and have to pay "recruiters" to get the jobs, "drivers" to get to the fields... Do you honestly think farmers pay minimum wage and follow even the most basic labor laws and safety minimums? I promise you they don't offer vacation, medical, or baby sitting.

Something to think about for those commenting on working for minimum wage and those on "welfare" who prefer not to work.

I am in my early 60s and on SSDI (Disability). During the past 3 1/2 years I have had 8 orthopedic surgeries. During that time I have worked when possible, up to about 15 hours per week. For the past year I have not been able to work.

I intend to go back to work ASAP, assuming I can find a job. (Despite the 'protections', there is still a lot of age and disability discrimination out there.) When I do go back to work, I will receive reduced benefits, including food stamps, rental assistance, etc. This is as it should be. However, looking at it from the standpoint of one who doesn't want to work and wants to justify not taking a minimum wage job, here is how things break down for me:

I receive $725 per month disability, plus benefits. If I go back to work, I still receive the $725, but benefits are reduced. If I work for $8.00/hour, the decrease in benefits and additional costs of working (gas, etc.) result in my actually working for about $4.00/hour.

Personally, I will be back as soon as I can. But it easy to see why the system makes it so much easier to sit back and collect benefits without working. Until the system is changed so that those able to work must do so and are better off working than not, we will continue to have a problem with those who take advantage of the rest of us who are working and/or have worked all our lives.

Now, aye gwad! Run them damned illegal's off. Psssst, pssst, the price of "maters" and "taters" is g'wine up. There's all sorts of machines out there that can do the work. Say what?, Alabama?

Alabama has a huge unemployment and welfare population. Put them to work, and offer them a salary of $10 an hour.

If they don't do the work, they don't get any benefits either.

Problem solved!

Anti-trust: Maybe in your corner of the world they have been hiring illegal Hispanics for 60 years, but I'm a good 20 years younger than you, and my 3 older brothers ALL worked the fields before and after school, Saturdays and during school breaks from about the age of 12-13 on (I remember one brother was 12 and able to save and buy a car at 14 much to my parents dismay.) A whole handful of their "co-workers" became regulars at our house... Oh, and there isn't an illegal Hispanic amongst us...

Free American - "they do jobs Americans won't" do you know how high the unemployment rate is? we need those jobs. what we won't do is work for half price. there is a reason we have minimum wage established, and in this aspect they are undermining what we have fought and struggled for just to get those wages established.

Ah, F.A, you must have "fought" with the unions for workers rights. No? Thought not. Then you must have marched with Caesar Chavez in his "struggle" for farm workers pay and benefits. No? I figured not. Certainly you championed the liberals cause for minimum wage in the sixties. No? I expected as such. But I'm certain you worked in those fields when you were a teen, as my brothers, friends and I did in Central California during our summer vacations. No? Damn, I though you were there, for sure.

I see you've had a lot of supporters for your posting. Certainly more than those whose posts were more thoughtful and informed. I expected as much: Pissy, uneducated and hot gas is always more in favor here. Bronx cheers to all the other dopes who agree with you.

I'm sure you all "fought" and "struggled" for workers rights, supported minimum wage, would never file for unemployment if laid off and would happily pay $5-6.00 for a head of lettuce or a basket of strawberries. And please, be sure and post those pictures of your efforts harvesting fruits and vegetables in the fields of Alabama, California, Texas, New York, Vermont and others. They're waiting on all you able-bodied 'real' Americans to show up.

No? Didn't think so. And you won't lift one of your dainty hands to support minimum wages, decent working conditions or benefits for field workers, any more than you ever (never) did.

Shame is, stupid just breeds more stupid.

Chavez was a lazy bastard who did no work but spent his time "organizing" and sucking up to Liberal politicians like Jerry Brown....... My sister was one of those phony California Liberals who didn't buy grapes, but everybody else did.......

The Liberal government in California forced agriculture to accept Chavez and his demands - it was nothing Chavez did on his own, you cretin.................

J camp you yourself sound stupid with that post.... and more stupid because you typed so many letters to sound so stupid.

being "anAmericantoo" the population is now lazy....they won't work hard for peanuts. We all knew that those "jobs" were not going to be filled by "legal" Americans...because we feel entitled to a good pay with great benefits...we don't want to be in a field picking "fill in your crop here" for 12 hours a day...2 weeks strait. too hard!! Come on Conservatives get off our butts and show the rest of the country, we aren't scared of hard long work....for little pay.

That's not the plan here. Do you really think that the government in Alabama cares about the farmer? They haven't for years. Here's how this is going to play out. The small farmers aren't going to be able to find workers. The crops are going to die on the vine. The small farmers will be forced out of business.

Large agro-corporations (like those who paid for this law to be enacted in the first place) are going to step in and buy up all that dead land for pennies on the dollar. ENTER THE LOBBYIST, and the law will go away. The large agro-corps will hire back all the illegals, and everyone will be happy, except for the small farmer who will have to live in a shed somewhere.

This article is so biased it's a shame the writer claims to be a journalist. No construction workers? Pay a decent living wage, and you may attract carpenters that know their craft, make something ADA compliant, etc. Been in a new home that costs millions to build recently? Compare it to a home built 30 to 40 years ago, and you'll know what I'm talking about! I can still remember when "Made In America" actually meant quality! Until the bean counters convinced the wealthy corporations that anyone could do the work, and the profit would more than make up for the loss of dissatisfied customers! The wealthy claim they'll be happy to pay 5% more in taxes. If we all made what these CEO's do, we'd feel the same way. I'd rather pay a little more for products knowing it helps my fellow countrymen, than pay less and live in this mess! No reason people should be on unemployment for two years or more, or a child be carried on the parents health insurance until they're 26. I was out of the house at 16 with a job, and enlisted in the USMC at 17. It wasn't really that hard of a life if you were willing to work. Stop this three generations of a family being on welfare, etc etc. This is America, and we're better than that!

Farmer Chad Smith said his family farm stands to lose up to $150,000 because there are not enough workers to pick tomatoes spoiling in the fields.

But they can't afford to pay Americans minimum wage?

Alabama's strict new immigration law was touted as a job creation bill, a way to force illegal workers out of jobs and open them up for legal residents. Early indications are the plan is backfiring.

Not a surprise that the plan is backfiring; it's just difficult to get a good outcome from a bad policy.

Want to clear the welfare lines then do what one temp Idaho govenor did check status of all who apply for welfare. Guess what the illegals are applying for welfare food stamps and medical. Ouch that was money directly out of your pocket. ( Tax increase to pay for that cheap labor) I was a hvac repair tech I had to repair a furnace in a trailer there was 33 food stamp cards on the counter in the kitchen I counted them. This was a sunday morning on the floor was 13 mexicans sleeping in the living room. So now you know how they make the money to send home or save to live like patrons in mexico. Everyone of you is paying for it oh btw hows the roads in your state. I bet the money to replace or repair them went to welfare. Dont believe me go to your local wefare office sit down and watch who comes in. I did while I was waiting to pay my child support payment 98% illegal. After the status checks started I went in there was 1 person in the office and only 1 person behind the intake windows. I almost thought the place was closed. Sure there is wefare momas but not as many as the illegal ones.

Keith-1952

In response to your comment, I do have to agree with you to a certain point. My suggestion to these farmers and Politicians maybe you need to push for prison inmates to work on the farms instead of sitting in jail enjoying themselves. At least they(inmates) are working for their crimes and it wouldnt cost the farmers ZERO $$$$$$$$$$$. I am all for chain gangs.

I live in Virginia in a County that the Republican supervisor decide to enforce immigration law, turning the bad guys to ICE , a lot of illegal move to Maryland a blue state. democrats complain because a lot of houses where abandon, after two years the community is better , crime rate is low and the empty houses have new owners ,neighborhood is not crowded like use to be, Alabama will be better without illegals.

Soon enough everything will come out in the wash untill then I will pay more for an Apple, both of them.

Seriously, some of your statement makes sense. However you obviously have no idea about picking tomatoes or stoop labor in general.

There are plenty of prisoners to put to work for their keep. At $40,000 + per year price tag that isn't too much to ask. There are also plenty abled bodied welfare recipients who can be required to work for their handouts. What about those on community service? Let's not forget those who are struggling to put bread no the table at home. Now they more labor opportunities.

One thing to keep in mind is, Alabama has placed their small farmers at a severe disadvantage with their competitors. It may be nice for a season or two if the don't use illegals at cheap wages, but the problem is, their competitors in other states are still using that cheap labor. So, the end result is, even if they can find farm workers, their goods will not be price competitive.

This is the problem with individual state solutions. What we need is for the federal government to decide on a policy and enforce it. I'm normally a small government person, but on this issue, I think the federal government is needed.

Carolyn,

I agree with you. Personally, I think it's crueler to stick someone in a cell 24/7 than it is to have them work 12 hours/day in the fields (I know I'd rather work in the fields). Also, if someone needs a handout/up, after a suitable period of time, I think it's perfectly fine to expect them to start working for their checks like the rest of us do.

It will never be 1 for 1. There's something very basic in economics called the demand-price curve. Current demand for goods and services in/from Alabama is based on current labor prices. This means that when Alabama removes relatively cheap undocumented labor, it doesn't result in the same number of higher-paying "American" jobs. It may add fewer higher paying "American" jobs. Demand for Alabama output will be less. The competitive radius for Alabama produce will shrink--other producers will benefit. Some people doing things like home renovation work at the immigrant prices will either do it themselves or not at all. Competitors elsewhere in the country or world will get a leg up on Alabama. This is a likely a net boon for people living outside Alabama. Getting rid of immigrant labor will likely benefit intended constituencies--good from their perspective, but it will also reduce the overall size and competitiveness of the Alabama economy. It won't be only undocumented immigrants that lose jobs. These are called unintended consequences.

This will not be fixed over night because it was not created over night. It's not we will not do these jobs it's we do not know how to do these jobs. Hispanics will not speak English to each other taking us out of the picture. This is the negative atmosphere they have created for us and now themselves. I suggest to all Hispanics reading this to start speaking English at work. Stop separating yourselves from us. Your grace period is over, we have had enough of you all.

It's pretty obvious you can't keep the same pricing model. The product is not priced at a level to include workers with fair wages and human-like treatment. I don't care if it's a Mexican or an American in that job, if we sell it on American shelves the worker should be treated well. We have seen the consequences of allowing slave labor products to flood our shelves. It's time for a global minimum wage for those who want to participate on the free trade platform.

As soon as those rent and gas prices come back down to where they should actually be at, most of those so called unwanted jobs will suddenly become more appealing. Not everyone wants to live with several differant families all under the same two bedroom apartment and sharing the 1200+ a month rent some landlord feels their decrepit apartment is worth just because he has every single one of them filled up with illegals sharing the cost to exist there. Everyone in the housing industry was hit by property devaluations except for the landlords. Makes me wonder what their properties taxes will be like once the cities around each state are forced to do their 10 year evaluations and finally adjust to the actual deflated values of the properties. Yes, the rents are to damn high and one of the biggest reasons most people do not take a job that won't even pay the rent let alone the utilities and food budgets.

Carolyn G - Using prisoners as cheap labor is a common gimmick for totalitarian societies. I don't think we want to follow North Korea's example. Prison labor, like slavery makes labor of free men & women less valuable. Given a choice, I would take undocumented laborers creating communities, buying goods and services, and working to raise families rather than than employing captive labor, which doesn't do these positive things, at the same or less price.

AMEN!!! The question remains? How many people on this site are willing to keep the salary they're making on their jobs now and do the work that these people do? I work in the public works industry, I see first hand everyday how lazy and argumentative LEGAL CITIZENS can be when asked to operate simple machinery, lord forbid you ask them to use their hands to complete a job. Fact is, we are a lazy society that depends on technology and other means to do things we just don't want to do. We look for the easy way out with regards to everything, but when the world is shaken up a little and our way of life is threatened we have to look for someone to blame. This time it happens to be the Hispanic community. The only thing that separates us from them are the lines that were drawn by the theives that came to this country and stole it in the first place, oh I forgot we call that conquering! Any way you look at it it's taking what doesn't belong to you. But America is good at that!!! Technology is taking jobs too, so when are we going to send it back?

Someone on here said there have been migrant workers in the fields since they were a child and are now 67. Well I am of similar age and lived on a farm and there were migrant workers in the area occasionally. What I remember was one with two or three little children left in the vehicle all day dirty including diapers and with little to eat. My mom used to go out there, take the kids out of the car and give them a bath, clean clothes and food. They were not working on our farm but at a neighboring larger farm. We had lots of siblings and picked our own food. Ready for the saddest part? These were not hispanic people, but white people who were uneducated in more than just book learning. They traveled by the picking seasons north and south. This is not a racist issue but a legal issue. With the drug cartels infiltrating further and further into our country and the fact that chinese and middle eastern people have also been found being brought in across our porous borders, this is a matter of national and local security. The border has to be closed. Alabama will be a good study in what does happen when the illegal immigrants leave. Let's give it some time and see whose predictions come true. Unfortunately with all of them leaving we won't get the accurate count of what the cost of educating and feeding the children of illegals is because the kids are leaving the schools. The difference in expenses of food stamp, and other helping hand government programs in the next year should be interesting to learn. Then we can compare to what happens with the farmers, the cost of food etc. When I was growing up we also had truck farmers (farmers who raise directly edible crops). My favorite place to buy such things is a road side stand at an American farm or at one of the local farmers markets. That is a tradition that is fading as the corporate giant farms sell to super market chains. The government instituted the downfall of the family farm when they started paying people not to grow things to keep the price up. They still do that. A lot of things have changed in the wrong direction since then. Allowing illegal entry into our country is not the answer. It is a quick solution for those who want to buy more votes by making them citizens. It is an easy answer for those employers that want to buy cheap labor. You are all talking about field work. They are literally hundreds of thousands of illegals here who would not work in a field any faster than educated Americans. Like the Philiipino teachers on H1b visas who are supposed to go home but are traveling the country instead looking for the school district that will hire them. There are many many from Pakistan, India and other middle eastern countries who came in on H1b technical worker visas and took the place of Americans because they work for less. This is so much larger a problem than poor Mexicans sneaking across the border. Simplistic, racist comments are entirely non informed people thinking crop picking. If only it was that simple. it is not, and with the current administrations refusal to enforce the law it gets worse every day. Who were those thousands of scheduled departations that Obama stopped. You won't see any articles on that. If you educate yourself on all the problems in our country brought on by pandering to those who want cheap labor at all levels and the multitude of changes due to liberal thinking that has taken place over the past 60 years, you will understand just how much in danger our freedom and our country is. If there proves to be a real need for farm workers we can easily develop a method for such people to enter legally. But what we cannot do is continue to give a wave to the illegals that have flooded in since the last amnesty was granted. And FYI for those that trying to use this issue to support Obama. That amnesty was granted by a Republican.

Actually, Mikela, high fuel prices raise the value of local production. High fuel prices make it cheaper to buy products regionally instead of from global businesses shipping from the other side of the country or from other countries where production is cheaper.

Americans will do those jobs if we get rid of the never ending unemployment benefits and welfare handouts.

She said "We're afraid to go to Walmart. I'm afraid to walk the kids up there to get the bus. I am afraid to drive," Gonzalez said.

You weren't afraid to Illegally sneak across the border. Self deport now!!!

The problem is, if we keep allowing illegals do come in and work and go to school and us our medical facilities, there will be no motivation for those wanting entry into this country to go about it the right way. Even if they're paying taxes, we have to draw the line someplace because it's gotten way out of hand. I can see those seeking political asylum but we've created a system that if one can sneak into our borders without being caught, they're safe. It's sounds like a game of chance. If keep allowing this, we can very well find ourselves in a third world country. Who pays the price? Not the cooparate leaders who are making millions off of cheap labor but once again, the middle class who has to move over and deal with these decisions.

Lusitana

Slaves make the price of apple even cheapear, those illegals are the new slaves . Do you support slavery?

In the short term, as the illegals move out - it will have to appear as a backfire. Thats just shows you how much MSN sucks.

This law will protect Americans and bring jobs back to our citizens

Post #2.43 -

Legal or illegal the vast majority of those that work the fields of Arizona never showed up just as in Alabama and the consequence was I read upwards of 20 million at least that amount as no one really knows the dollar number was lost. We won't even count he construction jobs and unfinished projects there. It happens to take a fair amount of training and on the job experience to do many of the mechanized labor work not counting the "grunt" work.

One year of that and now what has happened to all the push to rid Arizona of these workers? I have not read of Americans taking to the fields I know my children would never work from dawn to dusk live in barracks and shop at the company store - all for less than minimum wage - are you kidding me?

Ahhhhh another day in paradise?????????????????

PS: not to grow we give tax subsidies to mega corporate farming interests and giant taxpayer subsidies to oil and energy plus many others the government is broken we need to tear it all down and start over. Keep our liberties and strip naked those that enslave and oppress the American people with many techniques as flooding the labor market with cheap labor and stacking he deck against the American worker with "Rigged Trade" it is all a scam.

Have a great day............

PS: Post #2.49 - someday the jobs may come back but at minimum wage lol you are missing the whole subject matter those replacement workers will be paid minimum or close to the min. as possible - plain economics - sorrry

I was pretty much unemployed for about half a year in 2010. I was thankful to get a low paying job because being without a place to live sucks even more. Now there are all these jobs (although low-paying) available, yet no one will work...not the time to be proud, people.

I went to a Hardees here last Sunday...apparently most of the crew had quit (and no, they were not Hispanic, just selfish) for whatever reason, and these poor people were getting slaughtered with orders they couldn't fill in a timely manner. To make things even better, one person was making a point to tell us all how she had stayed long enough and left. No work ethic here, either.

These people that are legal have a right to be scared...with all the idiots out there that assume every hispanic is illegal, and the fact that a lot of us weren't the nicest to these people, it's no wonder.

As for the ones that pay them low low wages because they know they will work it, shame on you. You treat people that way, and now you lose them...karma can be a bitch, huh? You take advantage of people that have no other option, treat them with little respect and then pay them a fraction of what you would have to pay someone else because it's the law.

Now I am not saying all who have (or had) immigrants working for them do this, but we all know they do jobs that those of us who feel they are deserving better won't.

Guess what...we ALL deserve better. But I guess we can still treat each other like crap and get away with it, so why worry?

To those who think prison slavery isn't already happening.....

The prison industry complex is one of the fastest-growing industries in the United States and its investors are on Wall Street. "This multimillion-dollar industry has its own trade exhibitions, conventions, websites, and mail-order/Internet catalogs. It also has direct advertising campaigns, architecture companies, construction companies, investment houses on Wall Street, plumbing supply companies, food supply companies, armed security, and padded cells in a large variety of colors."

At least 37 states have legalized the contracting of prison labor by private corporations that mount their operations inside state prisons. The list of such companies contains the cream of U.S. corporate society: IBM, Boeing, Motorola, Microsoft, AT&T, Wireless, Texas Instrument, Dell, Compaq, Honeywell, Hewlett-Packard, Nortel, Lucent Technologies, 3Com, Intel, Northern Telecom, TWA, Nordstrom's, Revlon, Macy's, Pierre Cardin, Target Stores, and many more. All of these businesses are excited about the economic boom generation by prison labor. Just between 1980 and 1994, profits went up from $392 million to $1.31 billion. Inmates in state penitentiaries generally receive the minimum wage for their work, but not all; in Colorado, they get about $2 per hour, well under the minimum. And in privately-run prisons, they receive as little as 17 cents per hour for a maximum of six hours a day, the equivalent of $20 per month. The highest-paying private prison is CCA in Tennessee, where prisoners receive 50 cents per hour for what they call "highly skilled positions." At those rates, it is no surprise that inmates find the pay in federal prisons to be very generous. There, they can earn $1.25 an hour and work eight hours a day, and sometimes overtime. They can send home $200-$300 per month.

Much more here: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8289

Corporates know exactly what they are doing. There is no way farmers can pay a living wage and compete with international slave labor imports. I knew after the states did something about illegal immigration that people were going to blame the problem on someone else, lazy citizens, welfare, etc.. It is downright predictable and it is sickening. You people have absolutely no clue as to the cause of this socioeconomic problems that cause the problem of illegal immigrants in the first place. Way sad.

ruby.... I don't like the idea that corps are using prison labor but that $2 an hour is what the prisoner makes not what the prison system makes. Considering we spend about $50,000 a year on each prisoner and they get room and board the $2 is a fair rate. 3 hots, a cot and they get paid even. Cable TV and gym membership to boot.

@ trust_verify

Don't forget all of the surprise sex. Prisoners get a lot of that too! And there are people that pay good money for such services outside of the system

^_^

The problem is, why work when you can sit on your ass and make money (welfare). That's why there's a shortage of farm workers.

@ Skiddy

I agree. Welfare needs to be reformed big time! We also need to remove eligibility for most people to be able to apply for Social Security who've never paid into it, and are not disabled or even old enough to qualify for it by age!

I'm a proponent of a working-welfare and a working-unemployment-based subsidy.

If you apply and qualify for welfare, but are able to work, you only get welfare for perhaps 2 years. If you find and go to work and earn an amount of at least 50% of your welfare income, you should be able to continue to get the same amount of welfare as a subsidy on top of your income for up to 5 years.

If you are recently laid off and apply and qualify for unemployment, you should only be able to stay on unemployment for at most 1 year if you don't get a job. If you get a job (or jobs) and earn an income of at least 50% of your unemployment benefits, your unemployment payments should remain the same, but stay in effect for up to 2 years (e.g. the "99'ers") provided that person's gross income is less than their current income plus unemployment compensation (this system should make a person nearly whole, not act as a raise).

This way, with welfare, it subsidizes the people that work and have simply fallen on hard times.

The unemployment modification gives the unemployed the opportunity to earn up to 75% of their previous wage as opposed to 50%.

$2 is a fair rate, for who corporations? It is tax payers that are footing the bill! It is far WORSE than what everyone claims undocumented immigrants are doing.

There are approximately 2 million inmates in state, federal and
private prisons throughout the country. According to California Prison Focus,
"no other society in human history has imprisoned so many of its own citizens." The figures show that the United States has locked up more people than any other country: a half million more than China, which has a population five times greater than the U.S. Statistics reveal that the United States holds 25% of the world's prison population, but only 5% of the world's people. From less than 300,000 inmates in 1972, the jail population grew to 2 million by the year 2000. In 1990 it was one million. Ten years ago there were only five private prisons in the country, with a population of 2,000 inmates; now, there are 100, with 62,000 inmates. It is expected that by the coming decade, the number will hit 360,000, according to reports.

Ninety-seven percent of 125,000 federal inmates have been convicted of
non-violent crimes. It is believed that more than half of the 623,000 inmates in municipal or county jails are innocent of the crimes they are accused of. Of these, the majority are awaiting trial. Two-thirds of the one million state prisoners have committed non-violent offenses. Sixteen percent of the country's 2 million prisoners suffer from mental illness.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8289

Rudy... do you have specific proof that the government is paying the prisoners from state funds? What you appear to be saying is the state is giving away a service to the corporations.

This thread is not about prisons though. It is about ILLEGALS and the Alabama law. Save those arguments for a thread about prisons.

Rubytuesday57 Post #2.57 -

Thank you for the informative and enlightening post. What I would add is the decades long in the not to far future a half century long (in decades of Lost WAR) of looting the American people of our futures our dreams through the hoax of a "War on Drugs". This war is a for profit job security high pension high wages all the benefits a dream job especially for the maniacal Sadist this job is heaven sent what could be better?

The cops, the under-cover cops, the judges, the jailers, the police attendees, the investigators, the probation, the parole, the DA's, the public defenders, the medical personnel, the legends of of clerks the massive amount of machinery and enforcement personnel including the diplomat's on both sides to make it all part of a concerted effort and the list goes on and on of those that make their way through life feeding off and surviving because of the system, they need the status-quo to survive they are as economically trapped as we, why they would have to look for a job, could you imagine that? (it used to be called a mega out od control bureaucracy). Now we love it just love it.............

This is and has been a show for the American people to feel secure that all is being done that is humanely possible no matter the Billions and Billions plus the enrichment of the players or in the least the tens of thousands that depend on keeping the myth alive and your fearful so you won't mind, an oxymoron, so it will not enter your mind of the Billions and Billions the vested interest to keep matters as they are and to make you fearful to even speak out in mass.

No go about your business leave the management of the ship of state - leave management to them that brought us here let them take the helm what do you know anyway those lazy weasels know it all leave the thinking (the money too) to them.

wow where is all the good smokes coming from tonight. Some of you are really buzzed.

Shaking my head makes a good point that should be looked at. Many people seem to think that we should have some kind of amnesty for Illegal immigrants. Like they said,

WE HAVE TRIED THAT BEFORE AND IT FAILED MISERABLY!!!

Look up the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 passed by Ronald Reagan. Anybody in was in, but nobody else was allowed in after. You can see how well that worked out. Anytime somebody whispers "amnesty" millions more stream towards our borders to try and beat the clock.

It simply has to stop!

So sad - I think those employees of his were actually legal, but left anyway. I smell BS like ghr19 said. Why would they leave, unless their legal status was paved with forged documents? This whole story reeks of BS.

Either way, kudos to Alabama for making this happen.

I also call Bull Shoot. Nobody here legally would leave because of this law. Someone who had tricked their employer into thinking they were here legally? Such people might flee.

A "lack of" Common Sense: Yes, legal U.S. citizens of Mexican descent WOULD want to leave. What Alabama has done is resurrected the witch hunt mentality of the 1950s, when everyone was seeing Communists under the bed. Everyone who is Mexican, even if they're legal, is looked at and abused for stereotypes--that they're illegal, worthless, lazy, etc. Nobody deserves to live under such unnecessary critical abuse.

Just as people were determined to interrupt normal American lives in the search for Communists, so people are determined to interrupt the normal American lives of those of Mexican heritage. Being "legal" doesn't matter; they look, see what they want and judge accordingly. And that is wrong. Nobody needs to tolerate such behavior and constantly show their paperwork proving their legality.

I still call BS. Your McCarthy Scenario simply doesn't match reality

Easssssyyyyyy Hysterical. Nobody passed a law making it legal for people to beat you up or run you over with a truck. Didn't happen.

I disagree with you. Yes, you see it from a different view. Do you go out your door knowing that anyone can persecute you because of how you look or talk? That cops will be searching for you whether you are here legally or not?

My husband is of Asian descent (born in US from legally arriving Chinese parents who became citizens long ago) and a few have thought he looked Hispanic before. He even commented to me last night how uncomfortable he feels knowing someone can demand proof of his citizenship or treated like crap because someone might think he was illegal. We have Asian and Hispanic professors at our university here and many, many exchange students from all around the world who could be mistaken for being illegal immigrants.

I live in Alabama, by the way. I was commenting a few months ago about how nice it was people here were so open and learning about other cultures, what a nice place it was becoming, and then our local leaders showed how overtly racist and bigoted they are, and then this happens. The leadership of this state sucks for the most part. I guess magically a bunch of people who hardly make anything in the first place are magically supposed to be able to get to Mexico, and the many who are here legally will be profiled and treated like crap with suspicion. Nice. And the kids will get no education or food, and I guess now some people will feel better and a lot more satisfied with themselves.

Yes, illegal immigration is a problem. Who will be able to buy the produce after the price goes sky-high, and did they consider that all the frigging food that could be feeding people is rotting?? Did they think about how some farmers seriously can't pay minimum wage all of a sudden to lots of people who don't even know how to do the job right and have to be found and hired while the food rots? Anyone know the wages of many Alabamians already who scrape to buy groceries? Please complain about nutrition and explain how they are to get fresh produce on minimum wage when it is a fortune a pound all of a sudden. This could be done in a more rational and compassionate way, but nope. We have leadership who would rather have anyone who looks or talks differently sent out of the state and country, and if you don't believe in the same religion these people do or have the same backward politics you are welcome to leave as well. They don't ask your name first, but instead where you go to church. These may be legals or illegals, but they are people and have children who didn't ask to be born to people who came here that way, and who have value. They are human beings too, and contrary to what the "religious" people seem to believe, they don't deserve to be starved and illiterate. If the leadership put their heads together they could find a way to help the problem get resolved without doing it this way.

So why am I in Alabama? I have a business and family here, and there are many amazing and wonderful people here as well. But when I see this type of crap it makes me sick...you don't know what I mean unless you've lived here and listened to what comes out of some of our local and state leaders. It is so sad.

All American Citizens are required by law to carry identification and to produce it when a law enforcement official asks them for it.

What's the problem? If I visit another Country, I follow their laws. I carry my Passport. When asked, I show it.

What's the problem?

Have any of you ever been to some of the small rural towns in this state? If not you should plan to make a visit and talk to some of the local citizens. You would them understand why this law is so scary...even if you are legal.

So Sad - Obviously you didn't read the gentleman"s entire quote who said he spent thousands to train these two guys to install the irrigation system , they were "LEGAL" but would probably undergo the same scrutiny - no way to live. Plus they could be picked up and detained for 24 hours. Would you like to live like that?

You missed on one key point he was training LEGAL workers!!!!!

If an employer whose employees fled says that they were actually legal citizens then you just know it has got to be true. (sarcasm)

I'm sure the state has records of their past W-2's since they had worked for him for so long, right?

I believe an audit is in order if the state shows that they have not been collecting income tax from these 2 employees who just quit.

"Have any of you ever been to some of the small rural towns in this state"

right cause you know them their southern rural folks are a bunch of fat, stupid, lazy racist scum. they don't know no good english, they ain't like them there northern city folks that are so smart and never pass judgment on anyone

sickandtired--if you have never been to a small rural area as a person of color, then you have no idea whatsoever of which you speak.

There are towns in my state that I do not go to, because I know perfectly well that the people in that town would burn my house down, run my car off the road, and throw me in jail for invented "crimes." It has happened to many other people, and I don't want it to happen to me.

Here's an example--an atheist family from (if memory serves) California moved to a small town in the panhandle of Oklahoma. The eldest daughter was expelled from school the first year they were there, for the whole year. When she came back the following year, she lasted less than a week before being expelled for the whole year for "stealing gym shoes." The shoes were found in her locker--do you know how easy it is for the other children to find out that locker's combination (it is either the same from year to year or it is in the main office, where some work as aides) and stash a pair of shoes in them? The girl had never been in trouble for anything for her whole life, and suddenly, she's expelled two years in a row.

Yes, people in the South are extremely ethnocentric and parochial. Simply because people in other areas are not perfect does not mean that no one else can criticize people in your area--other people don't have to be saints in all ways to point out the sins of others. If they had to be, no one's sins would ever be pointed out or corrected, as everyone is sinful in some way. And, unless you just want to go on sinning without ever trying to redeem yourself, that's not a good thing.

Bean, you're a Hysterical entity. You're always talking about the most extreme events imaginable. The REALITY of it simply doesn't hold up. That $h1T just hardly ever happens.

Many illegal workers make up or borrow social security numbers, so they DO pay taxes. The taxes just get credited to somebody else's account. So, for those of you bellyaching that these people pay no taxes, you are wrong.

I am very interested in seeing where this all goes. I worry about the profiling issues; the law should apply to all illegal aliens, but as you know, it will be applied to anybody looking Hispanic.

All American Citizens are required by law to carry identification and to produce it when a law enforcement official asks them for it. There is no national ID card other than a pass port. do you carry your's with you at all times? also you are not required to carry ID only to identify yourself if asked. 2006 Alabama Code - Section 15-5-30 — Authority of peace officer to stop and question. he can ask your name address and reason for being there. no ID rerquired

I guess you don't know anything about racism.

enforcing against the worker is barbaric and prone to harassment by zealous and racist police officers.

Let's just go after employers like we should have been doing from sqaure 1

If you have an ant problem in your house, do you grab the nearest hammer and start pounding on the ant-trails, or do you clean up the mess that's attracting the ants?

USE eVERIFY!

If the person's ID pans out, hire them on. If the person somehow manages to subvert eVerify, then that's a federal issue if the inspector finds that something doesn't pan out.

We should be fining and jailing the employers of illegals. The illegal aliens are just a symptom of lax enforcement.

I am certain that 99% of legitimate businesses would cease hiring workers that cannot show adequate documentation if the fines were steep enough. The only groups that are against going after the employers are the ones that are probably cheating as we chat!

Suze the Muze - Many illegal workers make up or borrow social security numbers, so they DO pay taxes.

Nope. Not after the ICE Raids that President Obama Praised. As ICE scrutinized Employer Paperwork to determine which Businesses to get search warrants to raid.

US Taxpayer Funded Illegal Alien Advocacy Group La Raza, always advised all Illegal Aliens not to fill out Employer Paperwork and work for Cash Only.

By not filling out Employer Paperwork the Illegal Aliens are committing Criminal Felony Tax Evasion, the same way that the Federal Government seized all the assets of "Italian Organized Crime" including all of Las Vegas and Reno Nevada, including the "Houses of Prostitution" (almost laughing when the US Government had an advertisement in the newspapers for a manager for these Houses of Prostitution). Eventually, these confiscated properties were sold to Corporations. The former "Italian Organized Crime" that owned these properties spend/are spending very long prison terms.

Example of the cost of Illegal Aliens. 2004 California spent over $10 Billion USDs per year on Illegal Aliens, $7.7 Billion Education of Illegal Aliens, $1.4 Billion Health Care Illegal Aliens, $1.4 Billion Imprisonment of violent Illegal Aliens (Murder, Rape, Armed Assault, Gang Initiations (random rape then murder (no witnesses), etc.. This did not count the Illegal Aliens receiving US Taxpayer funded Public Assistance, Public Housing, Food Stamps, etc.. At the same time this was happening, the Illegal Aliens paid $17 Million in Taxes, this hardly covers the over $10 Billion alone that the Illegal Aliens received.

Basically, that Tomato Farmer needs to be paid a visit by the IRS, and ICE. If they were paying Cash, and no W-2s, etc.. Then confiscation of the tomato farm as Felony Criminal Tax Evasion.

On Chandler Mountain in north Alabama, tomato farmer Lana Boatwright said only eight of the 48 Hispanic workers she needed for harvest showed up after the law took effect. Those who did were frightened.

It is also time for ICE to visit that mobile home park.

Cristian Gonzalez, an illegal immigrant from Mexico, is a stay-at-home mother of four who lives in a mobile home in suburban Birmingham with her husband. They sneaked across the border in 2009 and planned to save money and eventually return to their home country.

As mentioned before it is NEVER the intent for the Illegal Aliens to become US Citizens as Immigrants. It is their intent to make as much money as possible then go home (not the US) to live like Kings and Queens. They also bring their entire families with them to live off of US Taxpayer paid Public Assistance to decrease their expenses.

"We're just trying to be here one more year, but with this law ..." she said, her voice trailing off as she shook her head.

If anyone doubts that they are REQUIRED BY LAW TO CARRY ID, please check your local statutes. If you are TOO LAZY, please provide a zip code and I will post back with the exact Law.

Why would they leave, unless their legal status was paved with forged documents? This whole story reeks of BS.

It seems pretty obvious to me, do you lack the ability to put yourselves in their shoes? Any group that is the target of this type of thing will be affected. There will be an assumption by many if not most that THEY are illegal even if they are not. This article seems spot on to me because it has happened before. Just wait and watch. In the past slaves were used, or other immigrants. Teapubs seem very intent on taking this country back to the last century when we worked our fields. I don't see it happening.

Ask a sixth grader why we pass laws in America, and the answer will probably sound something like this: "to keep people safe" or "so people won't steal from you". But what would you think about an answer like this: "to make people scared so they'll do what we want them to do". Fundamentally, we don't pass laws in this country to scare people. That's a practice for the kings and tyrants and dictators that we so thoroughly denounce. But even according to the Alabama law's co-author, that is what this law is largely intended to do - scare immigrants into leaving the state. Without taking a side on this issue either for or against immigrants or immigration, whether legal or illegal, and without defending either the farmers in the fields or the throngs of unemployed Americans who can't find a job, let's consider how slippery the slope is when we start using legislation - any legislation - merely to intimidate someone.

Wait a minute!Illegal means against the law.So,what's the problem with requiring one to prove their country of origin?Alabama's law requires police to ask only if another law has been broken.So,like a seatbelt only stop in some states,arresting without probable cause would not hold water.Why would anyone attempt to stand up for illegal acts?Immigration has a way that's lawful,and should only be used lawfully,just like we have laws in place to stop illegal drugs from being used.So,what's the problem with enforcement of laws to enter the U.S.?I guarantee you,that Mexico would frown upon a U.S. born citizen to enter their country illegally.Also,allowing the borders to be so pourous leaves us vulnerable to attack by terrorrists.Again,I ask you,and others,why do you advocate illegal entry into this country?It seems as though one is a non-patriot to even consider this theme,such as yours.

"IF you are stopped by a police officer just walking on the street and you have no ID, YOU WILL GO TO JAIL!!!!"

Ummm, wrong again. I didn't get an ID until I got my Driver's License at age 21 (didn't get it until I was able to buy a car).

I never got arrested for simply not having an ID. In fact, when I was 18 (and still a stupid punk) I got arrested AND DIDN'T HAVE ANY I.D. and the cops didn't say anything about it. They asked me my name, address, etc. and I gave it to them with no problems.

Perhaps where you live, it is the law, but it isn't in the entire US.

(Alil Common Sense) no zip just state of alabmba existing laws see comment 3.19

I'm hearing a lot of an age old argument here: those who have done nothing wrong have nothing to hide, and therefore shouldn't object to having their privacy violated.

It's a pathetically crass argument to make, and the kind that only one who hasn't had their privacy violated in such a way would ever have the gall to make. This law goes directly against the whole concept of "innocent until proven guilty" by requiring people to prove that they haven't done anything wrong. What's worse is that it only targets a specific ethnicity. It greatly disturbs me to see how few people seem to realize why one might choose not to live in such conditions, regardless of their legal status.

Anyone who doubts that they are required by law to carry ID, check your local statutes. If you are TOO LAZY then post your zip code, and I will tell you the exact law.

ALilCommonSense,

Driver's Licenses are not a form of identification that you are required to have at all times. You are only required to have then when you are driving. You cannot be stopped on a sidewalk by a cop and asked for your driver's license and arrested if you do not have it.

There is no national form of identification in America that people are required to have on them at all times regardless of legal activity.

Also just because almost everyone always carries around their DL's with them all the time does not mean that they are required to have them by law if they are not behind the wheel.

Geowil - I never said anything about Driver's Licenses...... YOU DID.

I repeat, it seems needlessly to me...

Anyone who doubts that they are required by law to carry ID, check your local statutes. If you are TOO LAZY then post your zip code, and I will tell you the exact law.

Alil -- please post any laws that require a person in the U.S. to carry I.D. at all times. Other than this Alabama law, which I don't know about, there aren't any. U.S. citizens are not required to carry or show identification. In fact, you are not even required to identify yourself unless a police officer has reason to suspect you have committed a crime.

There is no law in the USA requiring US citizens to carry and present identification papers to anyone who inquires. Citizens have been expressly exempted from such a requirement. Resident aliens and non-citizens are required to produce proof of residency or citizenship for specified purposes. As a result of the UNPATRIOT ACT. Citizens have become overburdened with identification requirements for such things as procuring a driver's license or traveling within North America and the Carribean--used to not require a passport, now reentering the country from anywhere requires a passport. The fortress/police state mentality has infected America. The greatest threat illegal immigration poses to Americans is long irradicated infectious diseases (e.g., tuberculosis) that persist in the third world nations. All the employment related issues would go away if current labor laws were simply enforced. Illegals would not be coming to America to work if American businesses new that local, state, and federal law enforcement were aggressively inforcing labor laws. All that said, the employer in question stated that both these employees were legal immigrants that he had invested resources in because they were good employees. He lost two good, legal resident employees because of fascist thuggery perpetrated through legislation. PEOPLE, WAKE UP! WE ARE LOSING OUR REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY TO A FASCIST POICE STATE!

Alil - as nicely summarized in the Wikipedia (in this case accurately) "Although most American adults carry their driver's license at all times when they are outside their homes, there is no legal requirement that they must be carrying their license when not operating a vehicle. However, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that states are permitted to require people to say their name when a police officer asks them. See Stop and Identify statutes. Furthermore, in some states, like California, failure to produce an identification document upon citation for any traffic infraction (such as riding a bicycle on the wrong side of a street) is sufficient justification for full custodial arrest.^[6]"

Alil - as nicely summarized in the Wikipedia (in this case accurately) "Although most American adults carry their driver's license at all times when they are outside their homes, there is no legal requirement that they must be carrying their license when not operating a vehicle. However, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that states are permitted to require people to say their name when a police officer asks them. See Stop and Identify statutes. Furthermore, in some states, like California, failure to produce an identification document upon citation for any traffic infraction (such as riding a bicycle on the wrong side of a street) is sufficient justification for full custodial arrest.^[6]"

Alil - as nicely summarized in the Wikipedia (in this case accurately) "Although most American adults carry their driver's license at all times when they are outside their homes, there is no legal requirement that they must be carrying their license when not operating a vehicle. However, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that states are permitted to require people to say their name when a police officer asks them. See Stop and Identify statutes. Furthermore, in some states, like California, failure to produce an identification document upon citation for any traffic infraction (such as riding a bicycle on the wrong side of a street) is sufficient justification for full custodial arrest.^[6]"

It's amazing to me that how the comments here that suspect the workers of being illegal just prove the other side's point by automatically assuming that the workers *must* be lying about their legal status. But quitting your job, or not wanting to leave your house, isn't against the law. It doesn't cross your mind that they fear for their own safety from people like you, who see their perfectly legal actions as suspicious and worthy of investigation.

Alil Common Sense

I also call Bull Shoot. Nobody here legally would leave because of this law. Someone who had tricked their employer into thinking they were here legally? Such people might flee.

If I was a legal immigrant living in 'bama and my choices were...

1. Stay where Im at - face constant police "checks" of brown shirt proportions

2. Move to a different state and not be harassed

I would move.

Why is it whenever a story is opposes some hillbilly's rhetoric it has to be made up? I actually find it somewhat amusing that all the simpletons who think the best thing for unemployment is to boot immigrants out of the country is backfiring.

If the article accurately states how the law works (ok to stop someone because of their appearance), I'm surprised it was upheld in court. Hopefully this will get overturned at a higher level.

I don't like the idea of living in a society where I can be stopped and potentially detained for 24 hours for no reason.

Most African Americans carry ID's on them while walking or driving because the police can and will stop you and ask you for it at any given time. My 23 yr old nephew just had his first experience while walking down the street about 8pm this summer to his friends house down the street. He is clean cut doesn't sag and has a job. The police stopped him and asked him where he was going and asked him for his ID. He handled himself well and didn't get taken to jail for asking any questions of the officer. We of course were mad when we found out. I remember growing up always being pulled over while with my father, brothers or male friends by the police without breaking any laws, it was just a way of life for so many AA and the police and we didn't live down south either.

"Rick Pate, the owner of a commercial landscaping company in Montgomery, lost two of his most experienced workers, who were in the country LEGALLY ."

Yes, because he shouldn't have hired LEGAL immigrants. That bastard.

And to everyone who said the workers wouldn't have left if they were legal:

I have a friend from Sri Lanka. She is here legally. She is applying for graduate schools. She was thinking about applying to the University of Arizona. But then she decided not to because she didn't want to move to a state that was passing legislation that said she could be arrested and detained indefinitely solely because someone THOUGHT she was an illegal alien. She's has dark skin and dark hair, and she knows the image that comes to mind when most people hear "illegal alien."

Lyra... Please provide a link to the AZ law and what section states they can hold someone indefinitely. Heard the same thing about the AL law and part 10 spells out the verification process. Provided your friend has her visa/green card/State Dept paperwork, which she is required to carry at all times as a legal alien, she would not be held in AL any longer than someone else being stopped for some other infraction.

I am disgusted by the stupidity of the original comment at the top of this thread - obviously this clown never read the article close enough to see the 2 people in the irrigation business example were legal immigrants. I think that sets the bar at about the right height for how ignorant the conversation has become regarding immigration and illegal workers --- note that attempted corrections to that were collapsed so the ranting could continue. No, illegal aliens should not be here nor should employers who knowingly hire them be free from prosecution. But neither should citizens of the US face unlawful discrimination at the hands of the idiots who passed this poorly constructed piece of legislation.

batlacit said:

I'm hearing a lot of an age old argument here: those who have done nothing wrong have nothing to hide, and therefore shouldn't object to having their privacy violated.

It's a pathetically crass argument to make, and the kind that only one who hasn't had their privacy violated in such a way would ever have the gall to make. This law goes directly against the whole concept of "innocent until proven guilty" by requiring people to prove that they haven't done anything wrong. What's worse is that it only targets a specific ethnicity. It greatly disturbs me to see how few people seem to realize why one might choose not to live in such conditions, regardless of their legal status.

With ICE/DHS (Immigrations & Customs Enforcement/Dept. of Homeland Security), you're not innocent until proven guilty, you're guilty until proven innocent.

Fomer ICE exec James Pendergraph said himself in 2008 to a police conference that "if you can't charge them criminally but you think they may be here illegally we can make them disappear."

I'm trying to warn everyone that yes, ICE/DHS CAN make you disappear; the minute they say 'you're illegal' you don't even get to call your family to let them know where you are. If a birth certificate that is admissible everywhere else is suddenly not enough to prove you're legal, a lot of legal immigrants and US-born Americans are suddenly going to find themselves detained like I was.

With ICE/DHS you are guilty until you prove you're innocent...and you don't get a free lawyer or a phone call to prove you are, and you don't get an arraignment/habeas corpus hearing to ask to be freed so you can prove you are. Every legal immigrant in AL is going to be overrunning their local ICE office demanding multiple copies of their nauralization/residency/visa paperwork and will be giving those certified copies to friends/family/relatives as well as carrying those papers with them to prove they are legal in case they're stopped; ICE does not accept photocopies of these documents as proof of their existence. In order for a legal immigrant to prove you are legal you'll need to have an ICE-stamped,ICE-certified copy of your paperwork on you at all times.

In fact, you might as well pin it to your jacket like the yellow Stars of David in Germany in the late 30s, it will save time when you're stopped. "Do you have papers? Oh there they are on your jacket. Let me see them please. Yes, that's ICE stamp on it, go ahead." and if you don't have it you'll go to a deportation camp.

Jews without papers in 1939 were sent to deportation camps. Then the purity purge spread to all non-aryans--and then those not of the 'master race' were also sent to deportation camps.

Now in America in 2011 if you do not have papers that prove you are here legally you wll be sent to a deportation camp. They'll stop people of Hispanic/Latino descent first--then others who aren't 'American'--Middle Easterners, Asians, African Americans. The dragnet will probably pick up some Native Americans too--Native tribes in the southwest have darker, tanned skin because, after all, the Aztecs/Central American tribes who were here long bfore whites came to America lived in what is now TX, AZ, CA, NM and anthropologists tell us that they've found Aztec influence among the Navajo, Hopi, Anasazi and other southwest tribes.

If you're legal, how are you going to prove you are in those first few mnutes after the cop stops you?

a. Show a driver's license? That can be faked, look at the kids sneaking into clubs and buying alcohol while underage.

b. Social security card? Faked or stolen.

c. Green card? Those can be faked too. There's a black market for those things.

d. Birth certificate? I learned the hard way that's not proof. Birth certificates can be reissued years after a birth to reflect a new birthplace and different birth parents. I never knew I was adopted from overseas as an infant until ICE detained me in a deportation camp--even though I had a birth certificate that said I was born in MD. I was acually born in Korea and adopted in Denver and my parents tried very hard to cover that up so I would never know...and to this day I still don't know why. They never even kept the adoption paper, fearing I would find it--so I spent 3 years in an immigration detainee camp writing to every courthouse in MD, CO and NY to find that adoption decree.

amanda don't start with the "faked" ID crap. When law enforcement CHECKS a DL they actually run it through the system, not just look at it. That whole story you have of being detained for 3 years was debunked in the other thread on this whole topic. Even if true you would be the rare exception. SSN is not an ID and was never meant to be so. It can be used as a back up method to get other identifying factors and verification.

Prove to everyone here that you have READ the AL law that is in discussion. Show us where it says anything about detaining you simply for being of ethnicity. Show us where you can be challenged/detained on your citizenship as a PRIMARY offense. Yep it says if you are applying for NON EMERGENCY benefits they are required to verify eligibility, which has always been the law. But if you have a true emergency they aren't to even look at citizenship. As a legal registered Alien it is a REQUIREMENT to carry proof you are legit.

Suze the Muse said:

"Many illegal workers make up or borrow social security numbers, so they DO pay taxes. The taxes just get credited to somebody else's account. So, for those of you bellyaching that these people pay no taxes, you are wrong"

Suze, what happens to the people whose SSN was used by somebody else? Don't they have to account for the extra income? When identity thieves use a stolen (not borrowed) SSN sooner or later the IRS comes a knocking on the victim's door wanting to know why they didn't claim some of their income. There was actually a story on 60 Minutes about identity thieves and this same scernaio happened to one guy. It took him years to straighten it out. My point is that borrowing (identity theft) a SSN is a serious crime. There is a victim and it can cost him a lot of money, time and stress to straighten his finances back out.

You seem to be okay with calling it borrowing instead of what it really is and you also don't seem to mind that it is a crime. That is the kind of stuff you expect a child to say when he gets caught doing something wrong. Even though the intentions of the illegal immigrant are just to get a job the ends don't justify the means.

I still call BS that the workers who left were here LEGALLY. What do you THINK a guy would say who has had people working for him for 2 years installing sprinkler systems. "Yes, I had ILLEGAL workers"? Of course he wouldn't say that. Just as people who were here LEGALLY wouldn't flee. Someone who had convinced their employer that they were here legally, for instance using a fake SS#.... Well, people like that would naturally be a little nervous.

I agee, that guys story didn't add up. It wasn't like he was going to admit to hiring illegal workers after giving his name out. He didn't have much of a choice at that point but to lie. The only way he wasn't lying was if his two workers had given him false information and were nervous about getting caught. In this slow economy nobody would just leave a good job unless they had a better paying job to go to or or absolutely hated the one they were at. There is almost no way his two workers were legal and just decided to quit because their feelings were hurt. I'm sure they are in one of Alabama's neighboring states now looking for work.

And when those tomatoes get to market will you pay $20.00 a pound for them?

I'm willing to pay more if that's what it takes to get rid of illegal immigrant pickers. But the real problem is that no matter what happens in Alabama, the pickers in other states will still be illegal immigrants so the Alabama farmers are find it difficult to compete. That's why Alabama's law should be a nationwide law.

Good point Will... And I like you am perfectly willing to pay a little more for my tomatoes. Hell, if everybody's working, making a living wage, we can afford tomatoes every day!!!

The Irony of it is... IT IS A NATIONAL LAW!!! Too bad we can't create some jobs in enforcement and deportations. Getting rid of NAFTA would help a bunch too.

Will, the article does not say that the law was failing in it's intended purpose. It is saying that there are consequences that are a result of the law. They may be temporary or they may be consequences we are willing to make (higher prices) but they are consequences.

How much more would you pay for tomatoes? Not much, I bet.

Alabama's strict new immigration law was touted as a job creation bill, a way to force illegal workers out of jobs and open them up for legal residents. Early indications are the plan is backfiring.

The early indications are that the law is doing exactly what was intended: to force out the illegal workers. If it is doing exactly what it was intended to do, how can it be backfiring?

#4, Will S., I do not think the real economy will support the price of tomatoes if the farmer has to pay $15/hr for the labor to pick them. The farmer has to compete with imports and other American farmers who are no affected by the Alabama law.

Your point that he will have a warehouse full of tomatoes is the point, they will stay in the warehouse and never make it to market.

Darn I grow most of my own tomatoes, but that's nitpicking, this isn't about tomatoes. Produce will go up, getting new sprinklers will go up... I don't care. If we're all making a living wage, we can all afford it. Inflation and the market will quickly adjust to the new realities. That's what the market does, when left to itself.

You posters have no concept of this type of farming. The farmers are usually under contract either with a food wholesaler or with a food processing plant to provide them with a certain amount of produce at a certain price. If that contract doesn't allow for $15/hour (or higher when you take in all of the taxes that also have to be paid by the employer for those "legal" workers), then the farmer isn't going to be able to pay more than the wage rate of the contract. I do believe that those contracts also spell out that minimum wage, plus housing, and other benefits have to be provided to the contract workers. Farm workers are usually "contract labor" classified. Construction and landscaping are most likely under different arrangements, and the owner is going to pay whatever wages he can pay and still make enough profit to stay in business.

I was in the insulation business from '77 to '81. Do you know who complained the most about the prices I quoted for insulating a home? It was the doctor or the lawyer who wanted to charge me $250/hour for their services. When I finally shut down the business, I determined that I had made 10¢/hour (yes, that is right....over the four years, I averaged a take home wage of 10¢ per hour, and I was paying my one or two employees more than the minimum wage at the time.) I often worked around the clock seven days a week, doing residential during the day, and commercial construction all night. The money all went to pay their wages, taxes, materials, advertising, building lease payments, and equipment/fuel expenses. The only thing that kept me afloat was my wife having a full time job. Even back then, people did not want to work, no matter what the wages were, in that type of construction.

ACS, what do YOU consider a living wage? What one person considers a living wage is not a living wage for another person. Do you want everything priced at $15-20/hour plus the overhead costs (all of the taxes and benefits and other "hidden" labor costs that an employer has to factor into the pricing). That is what got us into this mess in the first place. Unions demanded higher wages and benefits so that their workers could "afford" to buy the very products they were producing. It is a vicious circle, since the price of the goods has to rise with the costs of producing those goods. In any product where there is "add-on" costs (raw materials to sub-parts to finished product such as automobiles, etc.), that increase labor cost raises the price of the ultimate product exponentially. That is the fallacy of "living wage" arguments.

Oops. forgot to put a question mark instead of a period after the statement "Do you want..." Sorry about that for you grammar folks. Couldn't make the change before the editing time limit cut me off.

When you don't have to compete with companies who employ Illegal workers, you can charge enough to make a living and still be competitive.

First, How many of these jobs are being advertised outside the State? I know a number of folk out of work here that would be willing to go to work down there.

Next. Where are all these people going? To states that do not have these laws. With the current budget crunch in nearly every state, lets see how this works when these people get on their welfare systems.

I am near retirement. Once I am, I would be happy to travel to alabama and install irrigation systems or help build peoples houses. I did that for Katrina for free. Getting some pay for that would be nice.

Good post, mad independent! I live in Alabama and see exactly what you are talking about around me. It is sad and ridiculous.

ACS, I agree the market will adjust. I was in Argentina about 15 years ago and tomatoes were more expensive than quality meat. There was still a market for tomatoes but it was small.

I also see the stupidity of having federal laws that states try to enforce over the federal govt's objection. Perverse.

Enforce the laws or repeal them. By default we have selective enforcement, which is scary. Let's start with the truth. Survive!

When you don't have to compete with companies who employ Illegal workers, you can charge enough to make a living and still be competitive.

Alil Common Sense

Really, I guess the farmers in Mexico, Argentina, Central America, etc just will not try to sell to the wholesalers. Come on, we live in a world economy.

ACS, did you read the other headline today? 80% of our food today is IMPORTED and untested. So you are getting the "cheaper" food prices not because of "cheap illegal labor" in our fields, but because the food is coming from Mexico, Central America, South America, China, and elsewhere where the labor rates are 1/10 or less of what even the illegals in this country are being paid. In Panama City, Panama, their MINIMUM wage is $1.00 to $1.80 (for "skilled construction workers") and there is no real minimum wage out in the countryside. Your bananas all come from countries where the workers are paid even less than that. Much of your other produce is coming here in the same way. More and more of our building products are "foreign" produced.....plywood from Brazil, drywall, etc. from China, and the list goes on and on, just like the Energizer Bunny.

Catch22, if you know so many people "up there" who would be willing to move there to take those jobs, then why haven't they already gone there to try to get them? People SAY they would take any job they can get at any wage paid, until they actually are "forced" to do it. Then they come up with all kinds of excuses.....including the one that they get more off of their unemployment than they would make at the job available. Then, they also get told: "You're over-qualified".....(you're too old, in reality, but they can't say that because of the EOE laws, and they don't want to pay you a higher wage based on your "years of experience.")

If every state had the same law then the farmers would lose all thier business to imports we would end up importing tomatoes and other products instead.

Sorry folks I'm going to buy the most affordable product not the most expensive.

"S, did you read the other headline today? 80% of our food today is IMPORTED and untested. So you are getting the "cheaper" food prices not because of "cheap illegal labor" in our fields, but because the food is coming from Mexico, Central America, South America, China, and elsewhere where the labor rates are 1/10 or less of what even the illegals in this country are being paid."

yeah so we should keep all our illegals and just resign ourselves to all our jobs being outsourced and insourced because we are to fat, stupid and lazy to do anything about it.

No, I was just pointing out that illegals working American fields aren't the only factors affecting food prices and competition for higher priced labor in American fields for those farmers. We ARE to blame for the fact that we have all of these imports flooding our markets, because we demand cheaper and cheaper prices for the goods we buy while we demand higher wages and "better benefits" for the work that we do. You can't have your cake and eat it to, as the old saying goes. Wages/benefits and cost of goods sold are always very dependent upon each other, as I stated above. How do we do anything about that? I've watched this vicious circle go on now for 67 years. And I'm going back to raising my own food as soon as I can get our land cleared to create the vegetable gardens and fruit orchard.

Apologists for our lax trade regulations, one word:

Tariffs!

Google "Hilary 2008 Democratic Primary Tariffs"

Hilary knows!

BTW, It's not just Republicans against ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

It's any body who has even a lick of Common Sense.

Pray that she primaries this guy!

I told all of you before,

The "Low Pay", "No Benefits", "McJobs", "Entry Level" jobs are those that used to be occupied by the Teenagers (still a US Taxpayer) of US Citizens.

The Unemployment rate for this category (including Alabama) of Teenagers of US Citizens is 56%.

I also stated that the Illegal Aliens are taking the jobs from the US Labor Union Construction Workers, so here is your proof, as stated in this article.

When I lived in the Southern US, I worked picking Cotton. During Junior High School I picked peaches to make money to buy a motorcycle.

ram-762581 - Good post, mad independent! I live in Alabama and see exactly what you are talking about around me. It is sad and ridiculous.

So, ram-762581, you agree with mad independent, that you are:

mad independent - I think it is laughable that we have a bunch of southerners, who represent the poorest, least educated,

How about where the Space Shuttle was manufactured at Northern Alabama by Rocket Scientists and Missile Scientists, hardly the least educated nor the poorest.

Will, if you honestly think that a healthy economy is one where everyone can and will pay $20 for tomatoes, then you need to seriously read up on your economic theory. There will never be a time when the farmers can afford to pay the kind of living wage most Americans demand for that kind of menial labor. Try to force them to do so, and they're going to have no choice but to use increased automation and fewer workers.

We are a highly industrialized, technology centered society. That kind of society does NOT support a large base of highly paid menial laborers. We've been seeing this demonstrated time and time again for the last century, and yet somehow a whole bunch of people still don't seem to be able to get it through their heads. To live in the nature we are accustomed to in the US you need a whole host of technology and infrastructure that requires far more work than any kind of menial labor in the fields can compensate for. So our only choices are to let the robots take over the menial tasks, or find other cheaper sources of labor who are willing to make less than a living wage.

You want to earn $15/hour at your job? Then you better be prepared to actually invest the time and money needed to get the kind of educaton you need to earn it. Because the days where a man could pick cotton all day and make a living wage are long past gone, and no amount of wishful thinking and racism is ever going to change that.

If we enforced our laws, 20$ Tomatoes would be both common and affordable. Hey batlacit! - Pffffttt!!!!

Enforce our laws, and Americans win. It's really that simple.

It is a global economy in the end. We should enforce our immigration laws. But let us not be naive on the economic consequences. With less low wage labor available, cost will rise, and the economically sound pricing for locally grown produce will rise. This will shift demand to lower cost produce via importing - which will be produced by the very same low wage labor we reject in the US than now have to work in other countries. More of our farmers are out of work, and our prices are higher as a consequence.

You can try to shift that balance with tariffs. However, tariffs beget more tariffs - which means the cost of goods coming to our markets, both local and imported rises - as well as it decreases our exports in general - depressing further our economic activity. In general, this depresses our activity in higher value production vs lower value production in the US - which then makes us even more vulnerable to the increasing quantity and quality of high value production from increasingly well educated work forces in places like China and India.

Although we do not want illegal immigration. We are stupid to think we have a solution soley through laws and processes which stop illegal immigration.

[1] We need to increase our high-value workforce and its ability to work in high-value areas. BTW this means math, science, engineering, business, and other forms of education and national investment are key. We do not do that well.

[2] We need sources of low-cost labor matched to low-value production. So if you cut-off illegal immigration, you do need to develop this pool also. The US has always grown based on immigration of all forms and for people of all types. The in flows of the late 19th and early 20th century built our industrial revolution. This immigration flow should be controlled, but it should exist. A lot of people today who have high value jobs come from families who came to the USA during that period and took on those low value jobs then.

[3] The unemployed should have access to those low-value jobs. But we are not a socialist state and cannot impel people to take those jobs. And typically we have not forced people to take jobs outside of their professed field of work. We typically don't ask doctors to do construction work, or construction workers to do dental work, or dental workers to do harvest work. Tying benefits to the idea of forcing people to work in areas for which they are not interested nor have the mental or physical skill is itself an area we are loathe to do as a country. However, without taking sides, as a country we do have to decide how far we carry the notion of unemployment benefits. And while individuals on these boards may feel it is wrong to pay those who are unemployed benefits, it has been the national choice to date. By the way - all this shifting of blame to unions and politicians is stupid. We do elect and have elected for 100's of years who runs this country. By majority rule, we are to blame for whatever system we have. Problem is we have half-baked systems. If we want a system that has short-term or very little unemployment benefit - we should have a complementary system of re-education and re-employment. Oddly, in my company, we can't find enough of the right high-skill people in the right geographies - and doubtful we find them soon given our systems.

Alil Common Sense

Darn I grow most of my own tomatoes, but that's nitpicking, this isn't about tomatoes. Produce will go up, getting new sprinklers will go up... I don't care. If we're all making a living wage, we can all afford it. Inflation and the market will quickly adjust to the new realities. That's what the market does, when left to itself.

BAHAHA! I almost fell out of my chair laughing when I read that. Where'd you get that idea - from an Ayn Rand symposium?

The 2000 decade is clear proof that the markets will not regulate themselves. Good ol Alan Greenspan had to go eat crow in front of the entire congress and nation by admitting that a free market will not regulate itself.

I find it pathetically funny you still cite that non-sense. Let me guess - we should deregulate further? ROFL!

It just shows a lack of education Mike. I personally believe it was quite foolish to implement a law such at they did without first consider the consequences. It appears to me that they thought Americans are SO desperate for employment that they would work for the same wages immigrants worked for. Now more AMERICANS can go sign up for food stamps. Without health insurance now it will be AMERICANS going to the emergency rooms for their health care. Now Americans will have to cram themselves into apartments. Now AMERICANS can contribute taxes out of their HUGE paycheck working out in the fields.

It is WAY obvious this was not carefully thought out. Plans should have already been in place to compensate for the loss of the slavery wage manual work. It is obvious this law was created out of outrage and now they are going to reap exactly what they sowed. Best of luck Alabama!

@ Rubytuesday57

Of course hindsight being 20/20

I think Alabama should have started a guest-worker program like what CA, AZ, NM, and TX have, where people from Mexico and elsewhere can receive a legitimate worker visa and help on the fields.

Instead, they first acted like illegal immigration wasn't a problem (after all, before Katrina, it really was far lower in their state) and just let the employers bypass state-regulated minimum wage, health/safety and reporting requirements.

But their smaller government budgets are hit harder by the "hidden cost" of illegal immigration, which is that all of the social and public services start getting consumed by a massive new force of people that don't pay almost anything into the system (travel to any barillo in Southern CA and you'll see that most places are cash-only and clearly aren't paying income taxes on those receipts) and typically consume as much or more in such benefits by comparison to legal residents (take a look at a number of FAIR studies showing the fraud in low-income housing, welfare and foodstamp applications whereby illegals use their US-born children's SSID's to apply, whilst the parents work under the table).

Honestly though, we just need to make eVerify a nation-wide requirement for employment in the US. Simply make every contracting and employment transaction have eVerify as one of the mandatory first steps. Then, place the IRS in charge of enforcement and auditing (they took down Al Capone for fraud, this should be cake). The IRS could stand to make a boatload by cracking down on violators. The current statutes for employing an illegal alien are $250-$2,000 per illegal worker on the first offense, $2,000 to $5,000 for the second, and up to $3,000 to $10,000 per worker and jail time for a third.

If we required employers to do their due diligence of using eVerify (or similar) to certify that a worker is legitimate before they hire them, it should reduce a massive amount of incentives to hire illegals.

As an additional feature, I think that states should enact a law that requires any person soliciting business be required to show proper identification and proof of legal residency. There! Ta Da! people trying to get day-work by standing in front of places like Home Depot are indeed soliciting business, THOSE people should be required to show proper documentation! Now we've eliminated the complicated and disputed features of the SB1070-type laws of what constitutes a "legal stop", police simply need to get video of the people soliciting business, and poof, there's the legal-stop-requirement.

As a nice incentive, like drug enforcement, make a portion of the fines from a successful conviction of an employer go to the investigators' local unit. That would step up the game and go after the people that ultimately subsidize much of the illegal immigration in this country.

Thoughts?

Seriously? No...Really?!: I like your ideas and think that they would work as well as any on here. One of the problems in America today is that we have all of these highly intelligent people who can't get along well enough to agree on laws and government policies. Meanwhile that leaves America with policies that are outdated, laws we can't enforce, and no laws where there should be laws.

Like I said befoe I like your ideas and they seem fair as they don't violate anyone's rights. I don't think you will get a lot of respect on this site though. There are a number of people on here that are against the law. I respect their right to express their opinion but they can't are just haven't justified why it is okay for some to break the law and why they are against enforcement. I know a couple of people have said that latino Americans are worried about being discrimination. Outside of that argument nobody is voicing their reasoning just their profound anger.

We need common sense trade policies so that American Farmers and Manufacturers CAN COMPETE IN OUR OWN MARKETS!. That means Tariffs to keep foriegn countries from undercutting Americans by flooding our markets with cheap goods. Allowing Americans to compete by using cheap ILLEGAL immigrants for Labor is NOT the answer. Look where it has gotten us!

one word for you alil... NAFTA

NAFTA, like all other so called free trade agreements, are failures for American workers amd for the interests of the US. We should only have true free trade with countries that have similar standards as the US, otherwise their goods should have tariffs set upon them. We should withdraw from GATT and the WTO. We should use our power of food production to make other countries be better neighbors, force OPEC to turn the spogit up a bit to lower petroleum prices. Change tax code so that US companies no longer ship jobs to China and India. It is not the reponsibilty of the American people to lift the world out of poverty and to police it.

Totally agree. One if they are really here legally they have no reason to forfiet a quality job, because they feel uncomfortable. Leave the known for the unknown, not a normal reaction.

As for not enough workers replacing them, how can you tell in a week? Give the team that's left overtime, and recruit at the unemployement line. The state will help out, they will stop extending benifits and those who should take the jobs will.

As for the schools, it means that state stops paying for someone else.

With a state as poor as Alabama, hit with 10% unemployement if the people won't work we can stop wasting stimulus money. People said this same non-sense when Clinton lead the charge to limit welfare. What was the result, when people found out they no kidding were cutting off the money, and not paying for extra kids, in most regions crime went down a lot (as one cop said, you don't have time to get in trouble when your tired from a day on the job), and birth rates went down. Still true in California.

Give this a few months and well see Alabama back at work.

Totally agree. One if they are really here legally they have no reason to forfiet a quality job, because they feel uncomfortable. Leave the known for the unknown, not a normal reaction.

As for not enough workers replacing them, how can you tell in a week? Give the team that's left overtime, and recruit at the unemployement line. The state will help out, they will stop extending benifits and those who should take the jobs will.

As for the schools, it means that state stops paying for someone else.

With a state as poor as Alabama, hit with 10% unemployement if the people won't work we can stop wasting stimulus money. People said this same non-sense when Clinton lead the charge to limit welfare. What was the result, when people found out they no kidding were cutting off the money, and not paying for extra kids, in most regions crime went down a lot (as one cop said, you don't have time to get in trouble when your tired from a day on the job), and birth rates went down. Still true in California.

Give this a few months and well see Alabama back at work.

Seriously--you want to take people out of welfare lines to work in the fields.

Hmmmm, what are the problems with that? That the fields where they would work are at quite a good location from where they live? That there is only work in the fields during a very few weeks every year (harvesting season)? That they would have to be moving their children from school to school to school and around the country to follow the harvesting schedule? That 40+-year-old people (the ones out of work) who do not have the stamina to work in the heat and/or sun for 12-14 hours a day are going to suddenly start dropping dead while at work, leaving their families for the rest of us to care for?

And, when the $15-a-pound tomatoes arrive at the market alongside the $3-a-pound tomatoes from Canada or Mexico, which ones are you going to buy? Let's say that we start to limit imports so that you have to buy this stuff--when your food bill goes from $100 a week to $400 a week, where is that money going to come from in your budget?

Farmers employ migrant workers, not because of the pay scale, but because of the conditions--it is seasonal, temporary, back-breaking work that is only suitable for young people (or people hardened by years of such labor) who can easily migrate. It's not suitable work for people who own homes in the suburbs of cities or within cities--where unemployment is highest.

I have to agree. People may not like it but they really should be required to work if they can before receiving unemployment. I would put a couple of conditions on it though. One they should be able to collect unemployment while working in the fields, (So their actual wages are actually a little higher than just unemployment.)(I'm pretty sure agriculture jobs are not subject to minimum wages. At least I know they used to not be when I worked in the fields.) and they should have 1 or 2 days a work week open to look for a permanent job.

easy to say from someone that knows nothing about harvesting anything at all.

All you knuckleheads forget that LEGAL immigrants work these fields for the reduced wages. Sorry charlie but there are droves of LEGAL immigrants moving to bama as we speak. Rain in your face Libs always think handing out checks is the best way to do anything.

Umm, first off, there are jobs out there, but people will not stoop so low as to pick fruits or wash dishes....that is why we have an unemployment rate. People are stubborn. Illegals, or as I like to call them undocumented people, do what they can to make money. Which is exactly what all these white-collar people, recently laid off from prestigious companies, should be made to do, in addition to their unemployment. Everyone should have to work hard once in a while. Maybe if they did, they wouldn't look down on all the people that do this for a living. And maybe we wouldn't have stupid laws like Tennessee does.

About the welfare thing, in more states than you can imagine, there are laws saying that the individual HAS to look for employment or have a doctors excuse as to why they can not look for employment ans attend their training courses. If the individual does not comply with these very strict laws, they are taken off of welfare, only to have to wait 6 months to a year to be put back on. Then if they don't comply 3 times in a row, they are taken off forever. You guys think so bad of the people on welfare, but did you know that they take a fraction of child support away from the parent/guardian of an underage child to pay back the welfare that has been given to that parent/guardian? Yes, they actually take away from the child to give back to the state. So, in most cases, welfare receivers pay back their debt and you can not continue to call this "free money". A lot has changed in Welfare programs over the last 10 years, there is no reason to look down on someone in distress, knowing that they need a little help from time to time.

" Hmmmm, what are the problems with that? That the fields where they would work are at quite a good location from where they live? That there is only work in the fields during a very few weeks every year (harvesting season)? That they would have to be moving their children from school to school to school and around the country to follow the harvesting schedule? " Well the illegals seem to be able to do it.

rofl, "droves," Mark? Pray tell, I'd LOVE to see your citations.

Oh Bean, you so crazy. Wah!

Simple solutions for simple minds.

That's forced labor honey, and I wouldn't want a check for no more than they're worth, and I wouldn't be forced in to labor either. Pay people decent wages and they'll work, you're outta your damn mind if you think it's gonna be that way. You'll have people starving first before they succumb to slave labor, and that's what's happening!!!! and I DON'T BLAME THEM!!! I wouldn't participate in slave labor either, even for a "welfare check"!!!!! You're the ones that want to force people to do the work that you wouldn't do yourself!!! It's not gonna happen in the 21st century.....not on "OUR" backs anyway!!! You better go and get the mexicans back!!!!

There are jobs in many high-value fields of work. But people across the US were not willing to stoop to doing the hard work of educating themselves (particularly when younger) to the hard work of math, science, engineering, or business skills. Sorry, the USA will not out compete China and India by working in the fields of Alabama picking tomatoes. Our economic problems have never been about illegal immigration. We should stop illegal immigration - but its not to solve our economic woes.

Mark-1219747

All you knuckleheads forget that LEGAL immigrants work these fields for the reduced wages. Sorry charlie but there are droves of LEGAL immigrants moving to bama as we speak. Rain in your face Libs always think handing out checks is the best way to do anything.

Right - thousands of kids arent showing up for school - families disappearing - farmers not being able to find workers.

Yet immigrants are moving there in droves? LOL! Substantiate your conjecture or kindly move along.

Mom of Four, So what you are saying is that you want welfare "mothers" to pick your %$$%# tomatoes right? For whatever wages you decide to pay them right? Okay. Let me calm down. Renee Love got your a$$. Because I was definitely getting ready to cuss your @$$ out!

Need workers? use prisoners! I am all for chain gangs. Why are taxpayers paying for their incarceration? You can't do the time, don't do the crime!

Yes byall means hire the unemployed. But that doesn't solve the problem.Illegals buy goods too, and that pumps money inot the local econmy.what haapens whenthere are not custmers-new ones? The economy goes down.

Alabam isone of the poores tstate in the union.Itey never spent money of educating it's kids That whythe state is bypassed in favorto Texas where they have goodschools. It's no accident that HP and a whole bunch of others are Texas based-because Texas ficused education.One of themost surprising stastics in that Texas and Minnesota rank 1-2 in math and science scores on nationaltests (they are not ashigh as international scores however). Those state spend much more on it.

Alabama has benefited from immigrants-after the Space race started theHunstville are where theJet Prousion labs was built at German immingrantlike Werenr Vaun Bruan and for awahile the genuis of Greman mathand science helped trainteachers..But that petered out and Alabama becme a backwater again.

Farm labor is hard backbreaking work-theydon't call it stoop labor for nothing-I say if the illeagal want todo it fine. As long as they pay taxes,are non violent,learn english and shop in local stores to boost the loca leconmies that despreatly need bosting down there I say more power to them.

I'd rather have some who risked his neck to come here-who wants to be like us-who looks to us for leadersip-theanthose in thearab street chanting "Death to america" I say one illeagal ailen is worth more than10 ofthe "Death to America crowd.

It'snot the illeagals fault the can't get papers-it'sthegoverments fault fornot gettingoff their lazy asses and handing them out.If youlook how long ittake to porecess immagratiom applications you'd practically die ofold age before theyget prosessed.Uncle Sam and Uncle Mex have got to get up to speed on this.

The real problemis the politicians won't approriate the money for a mondern paper - passport -identity system-and they've screwed up every attempt so far.TheBush adminstration spen tmillion of dollars so for-and so has Obama-andniether are close toreality yet.

Plotician sdon't hold people's feet to the fire and say "where's our reuslts"?

The other thing posts like "go to theunployment line" show is the failure to interconnect unployment wi h jobs-thereshould ba mandatory requirment that employers post all jobs with unmeployment centers.This rarely if ever happens anywhere in america . Anidit'stheemployers fault too because they never maintain a close relationship when expnding to say "this is what we're gonna need"to give lead time to planahead and train workers.

Prison labor should be outlawed, or at least tied to the Unemployment rate. With so many Americans out of work, it makes no sense to allow prisons to make profits from underpaid prison labor. Keep in mind that Prisons are increasingly PRIVATE FOR PROFIT corporations.

Alil Common Sense

I was thinking the same thing. Another way to put the tax payers money in the pockets of the few. It might be different if the money went to the family of the incarcerated or to rehabilitate or educate the inmate but you know it would go into the pockets of corporation running the prison. Another scam by the greedy.

Not really. People for some reason don't like to be treated like they are scum and profiled if they are legal. It's really not a very nice environment in which to live.

How much you wanna bet the person who came up with this law is of 'Aryan' decent? Hitleresque.

So you're saying his/her race would bother you?

If he was Hispanic would you admit you are a racist?

Not really. People for some reason don't like to be treated like they are scum

yeah fat, stupid lazy scum americans treat everybody bad.

Here is another problem that is almost never talked about. This happened in my town in California.

http://www.vcstar.com/news/2011/oct/03/driver-arrested-in-camarillo-crash-that-killed-4/

The driver suspected of causing a Camarillo crash that killed his four passengers and left him and another motorist seriously injured has been jailed in connection with the collision, authorities said Monday.

Legal

You have never been discriminated against because of how you look, I can tell because you are so clueless about why they are reacting the way they are.

You can't just sit there and say, "Obviously, then, they all must be illegals," when the story gives multiple examples of legal immigrants and farm workers who have left, pulled their children out of school, or are afraid to go out in public. Certainly, there are illegals -- the author talks to some of them too -- but making a blanket statement such as your indicates that you either didn't bother to read the article before insisting on commenting what was your personal preconception, or you simply have no qualms about writing tacitly false statements.

Oh -- but I forgot -- media BS, right? All the 'legals' mentioned in the article were really 'illegals' but the reporter, in his liberal bias, chose to falsify the story in order to support his agenda for the destruction of America. Which is more likely -- a vast media conspiracy to undermine our American way of life, or that a couple of legal immigrants were scared at the thought of being, in accordance with this law, detained indefinitely and without cause on some day that they happened to forget their wallets at home? Insistance on the former borders on delusional paranoia.

Despite my dislike for the way Nazism is thrown about lately as a metaphor for whichever political party one happens to disagree with, you do have to see one parallel in all of this. Before the Holocaust, before concentration camps, the first step with the Jews in Germany was to say, "We acknowledge that you live here, but we insist that you at all times wear identifying marks and carry identifying papers." Thousands of German Jews, many of whose families had lived there for decades and centuries, left Germany. As it happened, those who did were the lucky ones, and I in no way mean to imply that the Alabama law is some early step in something as horrific, but what I am noting is the purpose -- at that time, life was made more difficult for the 'legal' Jews with the specific intent of encouraging them to leave. It's disingenuous to say that you don't really mean for 'legal' Hispanics to leave. Of course you do.

Seriously, this is about three steps away from another Kristallnacht. I don't think Americans realize just how dangerous this sort of @!$%# really is.

Here ger Man, let me fix that for you -

You CAN just sit there and say, "Obviously, then, they all must be illegals," when the story gives multiple examples of immigrants and farm workers who have convinced their employers that they are here legally, and yet still left, pulled their children out of school, or are afraid to go out in public.

gusotto

No problem if you're legal. With so many not showing up, I'd say they were illegal. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

I am an American - born and bred. If I lived in a place where I would be constantly harassed under the guise of immigration checks - I would move to a different state too.

If I were Hispanic I wouldn't stick around either.

How Hispanic does prove they are were a legal resident? What documentation proves this?

The Alabama law would allow the authorities to hold a person indefinitely. Say a Hispanic is legal and gets taken in because they lack proof. They hold them for a couple days until it is sort it out. Do they get any sort of compensation for be held against their will for the crime of being Hispanic? Probably not.

I hate to mention this, but this is eerily similar to the Nurhemburg laws. Mexicans aren't showing up for schools and work because they are scared they are all going to be rounded up and dumped into the worst bureaucratic deportation system in history, or end up in refugee camp or shanty towns on the other side of TJ. Have your heard the stories coming out of Mexico, of course they don't want to live there, it's a mad house. They are scared because the law states if somebody looks illegal, they can be deported.

What's next? Are we to start deporting black people? Asians? People that do not speak English? Non-christians? Social Dissidents? Anyone that disagrees with conservative doctrine?

I honestly am ashamed to call myself an American....this is not the country I grew up in, these are not the values I was taught in school and this is not holding with the spirit of the constitution I one time took an oath to defend.

Trey patch did you READ the law? show everyone here where it says in the law they can hold someone indefinitely. Just give us the section/paragraph... I'll make it easy for you start looking around part 10. 6 quick ways to prove citizenship are given. whether someone has their physical ID on them or not they generally know WHERE it was issued from and some way to identify themselves like My name is John Doe, I live at or lived at when it was issued.

Randy, I'm sorry to hear that you are ashamed to call yourself an American now. I disagree with my share of government policies and I get upset about how are country is being run a lot but I am still proud to be an American. I am not racist, so I hope just because I express my opinion next that people on here want accuse me of being one. I for one don't know all of the "ins and outs" of the Alabama and Arizona laws. I agree with the principle that laws should be enforced. By reading through most of these posts where snipets of the law are posted it looks like someone has to be doing something wrong in the first place to be questioned about their legal status. That means one's legal status is a secondary question.

I can easily see how latino Americans are stressing out at the prospect of having to prove their legal status. I don't think that worst case scenario of being shipped off to a shanty town is going to come to fruition. Most people usually have their driver's license on them. If not, they can call a family member for further proof. And to top it all off, if the police harrass an American citizen go and sue the hell out of them. If you are abiding by the law you will be okay. Now if you go out and get drunk and get busted for DUI don't come back on here saying you were discriminated against. By ruminating about what could happen will unneccessarily stress you out.

I know many LEGAL immigrants of hispanic descent who are just as pissed about Illegals as I am.

They're absolutely taking jobs from Americans and at the same time driving down wages for all American workers and increasing the demand for higher taxes.

Americans didn't consider farming jobs, construction jobs, roofing jobs, etc too good for themselves before the illegals invaded and drove the pay scale below what Americans could afford to work as Americans have to pay taxes, rent, utilities, medical, etc.

Alabama has done a great thing. The other states need to follow.

You are right, rain. You are very correct.

This is true no matter what some of you say or think. I have known many youths who try to find work during summer break an they knew what the pay was but they took the job and worked their vacation. How much do you think they pay in fast foods? Tell you it sure isn't above the legal
rate.
Our state has passed or is going to a tough illegal immagrant bill and we are glad. I do agree about making those who get food stamps and other freebies be made to work. Why should we support them. Same way with all these unwed mothers. I was working at a factory one day and couple young women started yelling becaue they were made to go to work. It didn't take long for the mothers who had worked for years to put them in their place. So they kept their mouths shut after this.It is time all who have enjoyed free handouts for years be made to work or go hungry.
Glad Alabama has done this.

rainlady--are you serious? You are going to take teens and elementary-school-aged children out of schools (it is October, you know) to pick vegetables and fruit? You are going to ship children from suburbs and from cities to rural fields to pick vegetables and fruit?

Seriously--there are such things as child-labor laws. Where I live, children cannot work after dark, and they cannot work for more than X number of hours a day. They also cannot work around the kind of farm equipment that has to be used to take the fruit/vegetables (once picked) and move it along to where it will be bagged and labeled.

Seriously--go out to a freaking farm and look at the equipment that is used and tell me that it's a great idea to have a 13-year-old (who is being pushed to work faster and harder to keep up with what the adult migrants used to be able to do) and to have his hand taken off, or his arm, or his leg, or his entire body falling into the machinery and having him ground up.

If you don't have a clue about what you are talking about, could you please stop talking and let the people who have a clue talk?

Try this quote:

Rural (nonmetro) residents have higher rates of age-adjusted mortality, disability, and chronic disease than their urban (metro) counterparts, though mortality and disability rates vary more by region than by metro status. The recently identifi ed gap between metro and nonmetro mortality rates opened in 1990 and has widened continually since then. Farming has one of the highest occupational fatality rates of all occupations, and farm children also have high fatal accident rates. In addition, farmers are at high risk for work related lung diseases, noise-induced hearing loss, skin diseases, and certain cancers associated with chemical use and prolonged sun exposure.

And, this is what you want to send the "kids" out to do? Seriously?

I grew up on a farm. I worked every day on that farm before and after school and during school breaks. Around farm equipment. We hired other kids too. The football team of the local high school worked for me hauling hay from the fields to the lofts. 120 pound bales. Tough work. Others worked pegging tobacco. A neighboring farm grew cucumbers for a pickle plant. They hired most of the girls from the local junior high during harvest. The schools in our county adjusted their schedules around the needs of our farms.

Now these were almost all white kids. Many of their parents were farm workers too, tractor operators, stock handlers, etc. Black kids wouldn't work. Their parents didn't work either. Bad examples. They just hung around street corners in town, getting into trouble, living off their government checks.

Amen Mr Carter AMEN

Bs, when the jobs are there take them or get thrown off unemployment, you get hungry you'll take the job

Carter, did it ever occur to you that perhaps the reason all these kids were working on these farms was precisely BECAUSE most of their parents were farmers as well? That they knew who to ask, got a good word in from their parents, etc. while the "black kids" who wouldn't work may well have been met with the same kind of elitist attitude that you demonstrated in your post?

And having seen how farms operate these days, fact is that most farms are operating so close to going bankrupt that they literally can't afford to pay minimum wage for the workforce they need. It would make a lot more sense for them to switch over to automation, except of course that the one company that was aggressively pursuing such things in the US crashed and is now out of business and for some reason no one is willing to let the European suppliers sell their products over here.

Time to face the facts: farms can't provide jobs if their operating costs end up driving them out of business. And that's exactly what's happening now. Enjoy your self-inflicted recession, Alabama.

Did any of you every fire a worker. It takes a Philadelphia lawyer to keep him or her from drawing unemployment. or Workman's comp for that matter also. We have papered and appeased people where they are think the government owes them something for just breathing.
Best thing that ever happened in Alabama. The the American worker to get off his ass and go to work. Small farmers can't get help because the Major Corporate farmers are so heavy on Corporate welfare small farm can't compete. My father was a small cotton farmer in the thirties. By 1942 the Government had legislated him out of business. One thing the PWA was paying for leaning on a shovel twice as much as farm labor was drawing. Then they started regulating how many acres you could plant. That is unless you were a corporation owned farm. When I was starting out and my marketable skill were few I went where the work was. I never drew one week of unemployment in my entire life. It is not Bush's fault;t as the Half Breed Kenyan in the White house wants you to believe, It is the self serving baboons we have elected to run our country. By the way most were failures in every thing else they have tried. So we reward them with a elective office. Remember birds are a flock. Quails are a covey. Cattle are a herd. Baboons are a congress. Enough said.

Bean you're so silly. Outrage at children working the Harvest? Really?

You must not have been here while we all got our hands dirty building

This Great Nation.

m. correll Have you ever been hungry, you realize people cannot live without food, so you would have people die from lack of substanance no matter what the reason they are on assistance, with unemployment at such a high level?

I picked/chopped cotton as a child. It is hot back breaking work. I agree you should be legal to be in this country, I also agree if you are able to work, but don't seem to have the motivation to work and there is work to be had whatever it is you should be helped along. But I don't agree to enslave children to do this labor, we are going backwards in this country, their are men and women who need jobs to feed the family, buy the way you can't make enough to feed, clothe, house a family on farm wages. It is just a culture that you don't understand.

Obama, a failed experiment

They're absolutely taking jobs from Americans and at the same time driving down wages for all American workers and increasing the demand for higher taxes.

But wait- thats not the free market working like all you con's always are yammering about? Here's a news flash - illegal immigrants arent the only workers making squat and "driving down wages" as you put it. Some legal immigrants and migrant workers are not covered under the Fair Labor Standards Act so minimum wage doesnt apply - neither does overtime. So yeah - the only force that looks like they are driving down wages appear to be farmers.

Americans didn't consider farming jobs, construction jobs, roofing jobs, etc too good for themselves before the illegals invaded and drove the pay scale below what Americans could afford to work as Americans have to pay taxes, rent, utilities, medical, etc.

Riiight - its the illegals fault some contractor is only willing to pay $5/hr for a roofer. LOL!

Alabama has done a great thing. The other states need to follow.

That remains to be seen - so far it doesnt look so great.

What kids should be forced to work the fields? What kind of an ignorant moron would advocate child labor? They should be in school getting the education that you did not get. What kind of monster are you?

Well since the right wing wants to cut funding for education they may as well send their kids out in the fields so they will not be hanging around getting in trouble and doing drugs. Since the Repubs want to get rid of Obama and are not coming up with jobs bills and there are not jobs for the kids to get when coming out of college or just graduating from high school, they may be forced to go to work soon to help feed their families who are also out of work. No more scapegoating illegals or so called welfare bums when you all are not able to get jobs yourself because you supported those who do not support the working class.

Illegal immigrants are not eligible for welfare. Legal immigrants are not eligible for welfare until they have paid into Social Security for ten years. The single loophole to this, if you choose to view it as a loophole, is that American-born, American-citizen children of illegal immigrants are eligible.

If you find yourself screaming for the American citizens who happen not to look like you to "go home," because "they do not belong here," please explain to me how this does not make you a bigot.

Other than that, unless you're going to amend the Constitution to strip citizenship from them, the rest of what you're apparently so angry about is not even true. Help your blood pressure, and reserve your anger for reality.

Ger Man -

Illegal immigrants are not eligible for welfare. Legal immigrants are not eligible for welfare until they have paid into Social Security for ten years. The single loophole to this, if you choose to view it as a loophole, is that American-born, American-citizen children of illegal immigrants are eligible.

I have to make sure what you are saying is that Illegal immigrants are not eligible for welfare - are you saying illegal immigrants ARE NOT receiving welfare benefits from the US Government? I will have to wait for your response because if you are saying what I think you are saying.....well, I will just wait to see what you have to say.

Sickof BS, Man you got it. Give them hell. I spent my life in construction starting at age 14. Never drew a single dime of unemployment or workmen comp. Saved my money and now I don't have to work. None of my children have ever drew unemployment. There have always been those that profit from some else's sweat. This Free trade Bull S#%T is costing American jobs and pouring profits in Corporate coffers..

Sure you will be happy to pay more; that's why you and most Americans shop at Walmart, buy foreign made goods left and right, and have made it virtually impossible for American made goods to compete. It sounds great, but you and most other Americans don't folllow through. It's kind of like healthy restaurants; we all say we want healthy alternatives, but when we actually go out to eat, we never eat at them and they close down just about as soon as they open up.

I'm happy to carry my passport anywhere I go. I am a legal immigrant. I sure have to show my identification when I go to any other country, why not here.

I am white with just a tad of Cherokee and yes, I get ID'd alot and randomly selected at airports to double check my ID/tickets (this is before the body scanners). I just show my ID and go on with my life. It's not a big deal.

I also pay my car taxes/insurance and do not drive drunk. What do I have to fear?

Amanda - Liberals.

Amanda--if you are white with just a tad of Cherokee, then you are white-appearing. All people occasionally get "randomly selected" and show their ID. This is not the same as appearing Hispanic and being detained indefinitely until you can show identification that the police are going to accept. In any case, one expects to show ID at an airport, and people who are "detained" at airports even though they are white have been extremely vocal lately about the TSA--so, yes, that's a big deal to people, and they do seem to fear it. Have a great day.

Amanda . . . you have nothing to fear except for close-minded people . . .

Amanda-2255052 - What do I have to fear?

People like Bean@home attempting to justify Illegal Activities.

As even as far back as President Eisenhower, it was known that Illegal Aliens are a known National Security Threat; so President Eisenhower conducted Operation Wetback to apprehend and deport almost a Million Illegal Aliens including the Illegal Alien's "Little Frauds" (aka Anchor Babies, a Fraud against the US Constitution's Intent, as upheld by the US Supreme Court).

In 2006 even President Bush realized that the Illegal Aliens are a National Security Threat with his attempt to pass his 2006 Illegal Alien Act, aka "Illegal Immigration Crisis Response Act of 2006", but US Congress chickened out.

I find it interesting that Jacobs was collapsed by the community for making an astute observation. Objectively, everyone here surely has to admit that it's hard to put oneself in the shoes of a persecuted minority if one happens to be the privileged majority.

(I suppose I've just ensured my own collapse as well by implying that this law amounts to a form of persecution, but then, mob rule has never been known for its embrace of discussion.)

"surely you have nothing to be afraid of"

Except, of course, for people like you who. Your sense of superiority and lack of simple empathy make for a rather dangerous combination in my opinion.

I get sick and tired of people who have money, have a job, have insurance, have security, running down the people who have a legitamate reason for getting assistance when they need it. Unemployment, it is there for a reason, welfare it is there for a reason, (some abuse, most don't), we who have worked and are now out of a job have paid into the system for years, why shouldn't we feel ok about accepting help when we need it? I shouldn't be treated like scum and called names by those who have gotten through without having to accept any assistance. Good for you, you made it, some aren't as fortunate.

I would guess that if you are legal and have have to show proof, that after you have done it a time or two the local authorities will get to know you and you won't be bothered again.

While I agree with much of what you say, I have to disagree with your last statement about their lack of contribution to our tax structure. Undocumented workers pay sales taxes like everyone else. Additionally, many illegal workers obtain false documents that allow them to find legal jobs. These workers and their employers pay social security taxes that the workers will not be able to collect on when they retire.

Have to disagree with you grinandbearit - while they do pay sales tax, many illegal immigrants are poor (note the ones interviewed in this article) - poor people tend to shop at Flea markets, garage sales, dollar stores, and goodwill -- yes, paying sales tax - but not much. Note the woman in this article, a 'homemaker with 4 kids' living in a trailer park - her husband did brickwork and cooked until he was laid off (now unemployed) - sorry, NO way that trailer park rental or mortgage is paying a fraction of the costs of educating 4 kids (and probably free school meals and bilingual teachers)

as for the 'false documents', are you referring to identity theft / using stolen or purchased SS#'s? How would you feel if it was YOUR SS# that was being used?

(I do believe our country needs a guest worker program and migrant workers for fieldwork should be paid and treated fairly - I don't honestly believe most Americans are going to do that work, even if it paid $8 an hour/min. wage)

No the Americans won't Moonlighting, and they haven't for over 60 years, that is why there is still the same "guest worker program" for migrant workers that existed back 60 years ago. Now, however, thanks to Chavez and the CA Migrant Workers, farmers have to pay much higher wages to those "guest workers", along with providing proper housing, obey child labor laws, etc.

grinandbearit,

Try again.

Nope. Not after the ICE Raids that President Obama Praised. As ICE scrutinized Employer Paperwork to determine which Businesses to get search warrants to raid.

US Taxpayer Funded Illegal Alien Advocacy Group La Raza, always advised all Illegal Aliens not to fill out Employer Paperwork and work for Cash Only.

By not filling out Employer Paperwork the Illegal Aliens are committing Criminal Felony Tax Evasion, the same way that the Federal Government seized all the assets of "Italian Organized Crime" including all of Las Vegas and Reno Nevada, including the "Houses of Prostitution" (almost laughing when the US Government had an advertisement in the newspapers for a manager for these Houses of Prostitution). Eventually, these confiscated properties were sold to Corporations. The former "Italian Organized Crime" that owned these properties spend/are spending very long prison terms.

Example of the cost of Illegal Aliens. 2004 California spent over $10 Billion USDs per year on Illegal Aliens, $7.7 Billion Education of Illegal Aliens, $1.4 Billion Health Care Illegal Aliens, $1.4 Billion Imprisonment of violent Illegal Aliens (Murder, Rape, Armed Assault, Gang Initiations (random rape then murder (no witnesses), etc.. This did not count the Illegal Aliens receiving US Taxpayer funded Public Assistance, Public Housing, Food Stamps, etc.. At the same time this was happening, the Illegal Aliens paid $17 Million in Taxes, this hardly covers the over $10 Billion alone that the Illegal Aliens received.

Basically, that Tomato Farmer needs to be paid a visit by the IRS, and ICE. If they were paying Cash, and no W-2s, etc.. Then confiscation of the tomato farm as Felony Criminal Tax Evasion.

On Chandler Mountain in north Alabama, tomato farmer Lana Boatwright said only eight of the 48 Hispanic workers she needed for harvest showed up after the law took effect. Those who did were frightened.

It is also time for ICE to visit that mobile home park.

Cristian Gonzalez, an illegal immigrant from Mexico, is a stay-at-home mother of four who lives in a mobile home in suburban Birmingham with her husband. They sneaked across the border in 2009 and planned to save money and eventually return to their home country.

As mentioned before it is NEVER the intent for the Illegal Aliens to become US Citizens as Immigrants. It is their intent to make as much money as possible then go home (not the US) to live like Kings and Queens. They also bring their entire families with them to live off of US Taxpayer paid Public Assistance to decrease their expenses.

"We're just trying to be here one more year, but with this law ..." she said, her voice trailing off as she shook her head.

ghr19

If they have a good job, here legally then why in the world would they FLEE because they don't feel welcome. Media BS to me.

If you're here legally, then why put up with guff in Alabama when you can do the same job in North Carolina or Florida?

Here's a concept: I shouldn't have to lower my standard of living to accomodate their standard of living. Now I know this will probably bring about a load of negative comments, so to preempt them I'll tell you how I live.

I live in a small two-bedroom, single-bath home situated on about a half-acre out in the sticks. I own one television; an ancient 19-inch CRT. No cable, no satellite; only one channel. I drive a 25 year-old truck with no a/c. I purchase goods based on function, not form or brand name. The only thing I really purchase high-end are the tools of my trade, and that's because I rely on dependable tools to make money.

Now, that being said, I choose to live simply and frugally not only because it's in my nature, but also because I'm laid off. If it weren't for the fact that I do live simply, I'd have been screwed a long time ago. I do not draw any kind of government assistance. I do, however, take any and all work I can find, and just manage to come up with enough to make bills. I'm lucky in the sense that I have a broad spectrum of experience in handyman work, even though I'm a mason by trade. I'm not lowering my standard of living any further just so I can appease all those out there whom try to say that it's already too high (when compared to illegals). @!$%# that. I'm most definitely NOT averse to hard work, as evidenced by my choice of trade, but I'm simply not going out there to bust my ass all week for a pittance. I'm formally trained in masonry: 4 years apprentice and another 4 journeyman, in addition to the many years of practical, hands-on experience I add to any jobsite. I've run crews, been job foreman and owned my own business until competing masonry companies started hiring illegals and undercutting my bids. At the rates I was being undercut, to compete, I'd have to hire illegals also, which I refuse to do. So, I'm out of work (in my trade), all the guys I once employed are out of work and our families are suffering because of it.

"Americans won't do that work". Bull@!$%#. Americans are pissed off because they're expected to lower their standards to suit the standards of illegals. Americans won't do that work for a pittance. Americans WILL work hard for a fair wage AND a safe working environment.

I'm absolutely in agreement with this law, other than the "indefinite detainment" part. That needs to be addressed.

Mason, I salute you for your integrity and wish you luck finding work in the very near future.

Anyone who thinks illegals in construction is a good thing needs to think again. My landlord replaced his roof a few years ago - the company he hired used illegals. One of them actually fell off the frikking roof and damaged a neighbor's driveway! Another was heard by somene who spoke spanish saying what translated to "We do a lousy job, he call us back, we get more money! No work so hard!" His boss got a call and finally, someone showed up to check on the work and watch what was going on - not that it mattered very much; it was all for show, he was as crooked as the rest of them.

Two years later the landlord discovered they'd done that lousy job - they never properly filled in the eaves with wood, the way he'd contracted them to, and the siding opened up to the elements and wildlife. He called the owner of the company, insisted he come personally, and took time off his regular job to oversee the work with owner, b*tching him out the entire time about how he'd already paid for this to be done and it wasn't. The owner's response, "Well, it's getting done now! The workers didn't understand!" Nice attitude - and no, they didn't get more money for doing a job they'd already been paid for. He also didn't have the same workers - big surprise. They did get a complaint to the County Clerk's Office and the Better Business Bureau, though!

I'd rather pay a professional like yourself more to do the job right the first time and feel secure, but I didn't get a say in the matter. If that makes me racist, so frikking be it. For those who say just because they're here legally doesn't mean they'll do the job right, you're right, but I'd rather have someone fully trained and competent than someone who thinks all the job entails is climbing a ladder and pounding some nails, someone who can and will be held fully accountable for the work done, someone with enough pride to stand behind their work because they know their reputation is on the line.

Thank you, Freedom! I agree that the quality just isn't there with most illegal crews. Almost every single job I've been on where they were employed, the quality was substandard, and the contractor employing them just did not care! The sad part about so many people hiring cheap labor is that the overall expectations and standards of quality also go down. So, where people once appreciated quality and skill, and were willing to pay fairly for it, now they have little basis for benchmarking true quality and are often unwilling to pay for it. "Good enough", is not the way true tradesmen do business. They take pride in their work and product, and I, for one, will not work on any crew who thinks "good enough" is sufficient. I don't even want my name associated with such poor work ethics.

I totally agree. When we moved to AZ in 2006, the NEW house we moved inro at the time had so many problems. First, several eletrical outlets did not work. The three way switches would not work properly, the master tub developed a leak the first week. They supposedly fixed it and it leaked again three weeks later. Each time, the ceiling below the tub had to be repaired. They sucked, and guess what, they were all illegals. How do I know. Not a one could speak English.