Article Source: msnbc.com
from:msnbc.comJust common practice or disruptive behavior? Bay Area teacher plays judge
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I doubt these children ever heard the meaning or origin, they were just being polite and showing some manners.........which being a bay area school probably makes them stand out anyway in that school system of anti american communists. Typical reaction from a die hard lefty.
Since they were told if they continued disrupting class in this way that they would be penalized it sounds like they were just being disobedient rude little brats.
I agree they were deliberatley finding away around the rules. No way kids would be that polite in todays classrooms. their too busy smokin dope and listening to their Ipods.
Azrancher, you didn't read the story very closely, did you? All you saw was "God" and "teacher" and you saw read and had a knee-jerk anti-leftist reaction when that isn't even what this is about. It's about students trying to exploit a pleasantry as an excuse to disrupt class, and a teacher enforcing rules to foster an environment conducive to learning for the REST of the students. Try thinking beyond your black/white left/right distinctions for once - it's a big world out there.
right on
Fire that dip worthless teacher
If you think that kids say "God bless you" in class because they are well mannered, polite little angels, you're naive.
I remember doing this when I was a child. Many of us did. As much as Azrancher would like to think otherwise, it's usually just a way of talking out in class and testing the limits of the "don't talk in class" rule. We found it amusing to do so. We weren't trying to be polite.
Kids aren't stupid. They know how to test the limits of the rules and, as any parent knows, they delight in doing so. If religious speech had been selectively banned the parents would have a legitimate complaint and I would share their anger. This wasn't like that, though.
The teacher simply has a rule that kids should not talk in class. That's a very reasonable rule. Those that are against the teacher on this seem to want public schools to make an exception that general rule against talking out in class. In so doing, however, they fail to understand the kids' real motivation for saying it.
The teacher made it more than simply controlling talking in his class by going on some self righteous liberal rant about how archaic the practice of saying god bless you is after sneezing. It's not about religious affiliation or beliefs, it's about being polite. granted those kids may have done it to be rude and in that case punish them, but don't give me a speech about why we shouldn't say it at all anymore. In a perfect leftist world it doesn't matter about manners or being polite if it offends anyone. Should i stop holding open doors for women because they have two arms and are liberated? no because i believe in manners. It's better not to talk to anyone anymore because you may end up offending a single person.... and then get sued.
What is not being adressed by Mr Cuckovich's supporters is the fact that he's on record as objecting primarily because of a religious conviction on his part that saying God bless you is a response intended to get "rid of evil spirits." This assumption on his part is naive in that it could always have equally been said simply as a wish that the person sneezing feel better. If it were only about disruptive kids in class he never would have come up with the 'devil' rule.
Where in the article does it state that is the reasoning why he does not allow kids to say it in class?
He merely stated his opinion on the pleasantry to a reporter. He may have even explained the origins of it to his students, and in their unique way of showing appreciation for the new knowledge - they began abusing the term.
I doubt he objected to its use primarily based on its religious convictions - because that wouldn't make any sense if the kids were behaving.
I am a high school teacher. This is a pure case of teens testing the limits. Do you remember doing that one gag where a note was passed secretly around the classroom that said something like "At exactly 9:27, crumple up a piece of paper and throw it at the trash can?"
That is exactly what these kids were doing. It's even easier now that there are maximum class sizes of 32 students to every teacher.
The only difference now is that we have a 24 hour-a-day news service that needs filler. When I was in high school, this never would have made the news.
We are officially news sheep.
Shuklack, the question is why he would make the comment. If the reason for the punishment were simply disciplinary it seems incongruous to make the statement in the first place. I'll concede that the kids' actions may well have been to disrupt the class, but that only strengthens the question what the teacher's comment would have to do with the disciplinary issue at hand. If someone were shot to death because he attacked someone it would seem odd if the shooter commented, "He was black so I shot him". (Yes this is a stark and hyperboletic parallel, but it does point out the disconnect between what the teacher said versus the presumed reason for the action.
Well, coming from someone who used to teach 8th graders in rural GA.... I can empathize somewhat with his train of thought.
The kids were being disruptive, and he may have even tried reasoning with them via the logic he shared with the reporter. That or he is just frustrated at the absurdity of the term, since it is being used by the teens because it is considered 'nice' - even though it is an archaic form of blessing.
Basically, after teaching for so long, I think the dude got caught playing their game and trying to reason with them and justify his demand that they stop disrupting class with a 'polite' term - rather than just being honest and saying they are being intentionally disruptive and abusing the 'polite' term.
I've caught myself falling into that web before.
I am a Baptist pastor, but I know when I was in School (some 20 years ago), that kids would do the same thing......someone would sneeze (most of the time accidently) and about 3 or 4 kids would say "Bless you!" in response very audibly and we thought it was all soooo funny....because it was soooo distracting!
Like the guy who recently had this BIG LOUD yawn in a court-room and the judge put him in jail for contempt of court. Things aren't done as innocently as people try to pretend they are.
"God Bless you" done in such a way.....didn't fool the teacher and they are not fooling God.....I can assure you He's not impressed either!
But the teacher should just stick with "it's disruptive excuse" an not turn this into something bigger than it needs to be.
I agree Rob
Our language is made up of so many countless archaic expressions, that to go back and remove them all would be a monumental task.
Honestly, I think it gives a language character.
I'm an atheist afterall, yet I frequently invoke God's name while driving in traffic. =X
Shuklack,
Funny comment
Though I hate to burst your bubble, but you are not actually an atheist, for by your own comment, you are an agnostic in denial.....
Rob - Good to hear from a pastor!
I am a conservative Christian who does not say "God bless you" every time someone sneezes. Like some others above, I recognize the ancient practice of saying it in relation to spirits, but in my study of the origin, it was attributed that one might actually loose their own soul. So the "blessing" was cast on them by others so they would maintain their own soul - not to allow an evil spirit in.
Anyway, I have 2 ladies in my office (an office of about 40) who are OVERLY DRAMATIC when sneezing. They yell out the famous 'AHHHH CHOOOOOO", in an extremely loud shout, then follow it up with several other OOH, OOH, OOH's. If grown up adults can carry on in such a disruptive manner, I am certain children can do so also. After their disruptive action comes the inevidible flurry of "God bless you" statements by the rest of the office...! UGH!
Why throw down a blessing when someone sneezes, but fail to ask blessings at ANY other time. Does saying the words when someone sneezes suddenly make someone a better Christian?
I don't blame the teacher here. Perhaps it was in the timing and wording of his attempt to control the classroom. Marketing is everything, especially with kids.
Well, by that same logic one could say that you are a Pagan in denial if you celebrate Halloween, Christmas, or Easter. ;)
But I get what you mean. Although I am indeed an atheist in a literal sense. I am without a theology. I make no major declaration on the existence of God in a general sense - but there is one thing I would feel is a reasonable statement: Everyone has it wrong in one way or another.
Shuklack,
Very, very nice come back...
I say though, that within us we have been hard-wired with the knowledge of God and so that is why it comes so easy to acknowledge Him in times of difficulty with either blessings or cursing. I personally am guilty of the later myself.
But our conscience is another evidence of our creation, for it at various times will remind us of the laws of God which we have broken.
It takes faith to believe but (as I tell people) it is not a "blind" faith as there are many evidences all around us and even inside of us...
investigation of this reported classroom disruption is being conducted.
Now there is a bigger waste of time , effort and money then the issue itself.
Pretty typical behavior of Christians these days. They cause massive disruptions, but they include their "religion" in said disruptions so that, when they get into trouble, they can claim they're being persecuted. They're intentionally stirring up @!$%# out of petty childishness, so they can fancy themselves martyrs when the rest of society tells them to cut it out, regardless of how absolutely obvious it is to everyone else that they're just doing it out of pure ol' orneriness. It takes a thoroughly childish mind to believe in invisible creatures and all that other tomfoolery, so it should be no surprise that they behave so childishly.
Well I'm not going to get into a debate on the evolution of morality, or morality in society and all that stuff today. It is apparent to me though that it can be explained through natural means via environmental pressures and the gears of society - no supernatural puppet master needed.
If God did indeed start the ball rolling, great - wonderful, but nobody can say for sure. Afterall, if existence must include a creator - then something must have created God if He is said to exist. If God has simply always existed, what then excludes the universe from always having existed?
This is silly kids being silly. What do you expect? The teacher is probably at his 'wits-end' and over reacted. However, it is hard to control 32 teenagers at a time.
I'm wondering if he the teacher did not explain the meaning of ALL the archaic "after sneeze" comments ... not just "bless you". But it didn't make news.
For example, gesundheit -- is actually German for "good health" and makes no religious inference.
But that wouldn't make news!
Salud!
Actually it was the TEACHER who made this a religious issue by offering his two cents on the practice. If he'd just stuck with the "it's disruptive" explanation instead of his long-winded "primitive superstition about dispelling evil spirits" (which, as has been pointed out, is NOT why people say it) he would have been much better off. Instead, it comes out sounding like the school is punishing students for saying "God Bless You," which Christians have been fearing would happen for years.
Shuklack,
Just a thought or so to your comment: "If God has simply always existed, what then excludes the universe from always having existed?"
A Possible answer would be if the World, being material....would need a cause, but if God being immaterial (not material, but rather a Spirit as the Bible tells us) then no cause would be technically needed.
Also the existence of God does provide answers to questions which aren't answered by scientific explanations. For there being an immaterial, powerful being (an uncaused cause) that would provide an explanation of how the physical universe could have come to exist without relying on the existence of matter..... as God designed the laws regarding all matter.
Lastly, putting God into the equation provides a starting point to answer philosophical questions about the purpose of the universe and our lives, which scientific explanations can't address.
I think this teacher needs to get over himself. First, how many kids are sneezing in his classroom where saying 'God bless you' is such a disruption. I doubt it happens daily and I doubt it happens all day long. If this teacher actually knew the origin of 'bless you' or 'God bless you' he would realize it was a blessing of good-will and has now manifested in to a politeness we extend. It never had anything to do with casting evil spirits from the body. I can't say for sure the kids in his classroom aren't doing this to be disruptive but I think if the teacher hadn't made a big deal out 'bless you' maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal.
Saying something is immaterial is like saying it exists but doesn't exist. It's metaphysical nonsense contrived to explain the unexplainable, which in the end explains nothing and only placates our cognitive dissonance with a philosophical placebo.
In the end, if God does exist, he's just as natural as the tree outside my window. Supernature only exists in our minds, the moment supernature can be explained in any meaningful manner - it becomes nature.
If he says they were being disruptive about it then they probably were. He did not make this about religion. The parents did.
If those claiming otherwise had read the article they would have noticed that his comment about "bless you" not being about religion was made to a Fox affiliate after the parents made their complaint and accused him of being anti-religious.
He was simply explaining why their claims of his actions being anti-religious were bogus.
You know, every time some issue comes in the MSM even remotely concerning religion, the quickest posts to be submitted are generally inflammatory remarks by the anti-religion crowd meant to insult the sensibilities of those who have religious or spiritual leanings.
There's always some blowhard making statements like "God doesn't exist" or some drivel about the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" or other.....
Now, I understand that many people would not want to be proselytized to, or otherwise be subject to the rantings of someone with deep religious convictions, but I find the posts of those who do believe to be far less vitriolic than the ones posted by self-absorbed athiests.
I think it is highly possible for both sides to quit the bickering. If you do not believe in a higher power of some sort, then fine. It's your prerogative. But stop with the childish insults. And if you do believe in God, great, just remember not everyone shares your view and/or wants to hear your viewpoint. So keep it clean, so to speak.
As far as this teacher and the article is concerned, my feeling is that it had more to do with teenagers being teenagers (as some have stated), rather than the teacher's bias against religion. Besides, the teacher was wrong about the sneezing. As far as I'm aware, saying "God bless you" came about during the time of the European plagues, that is, when someone would sneeze it was possibly a sign that they had become ill, and so the blessing became a way to instinctively state a small prayer in the hopes that they would not succumb to such a deadly disease like bubonic plague, etc. And the notion stuck. It had nothing to do with "evil spirits" that I know of.
Oh, and "gesundheit" literally means "to your health" in Deutsch. It is said in the same manner as "God bless you", but is not a synonymous phrase.
And to all the science geeks out there, which I am as well, please remember that religion does not concern itself so much as to the HOW behind our present existence, but rather the ORIGINS from which we came. And if that explanation doesn't float enough boats, then please remember that science does not have a legitimate answer to this dogged question either. Unless, you're Steven Hawkings, who believes that the Big Bang came out of nothing........huh, say what?
The article mentioned that other phrases, like gesundheit, were also used. It's unclear, so they may have just been commenting on social convention, but that's what we get for reading shoddy journalism. I don't know why I don't find another news site, but there it is.
I actually don't say "bless" you anymore for the same reason the teacher mentioned. I either say salud or gesundheit, which are both a much more practical wish for health for the person who sneezed. I don't just ignore sneezes, because my grandma used to smack us over the head if we forgot to say "salud" after someone sneezed. Because hitting children is much better manners than not acknowledging a sneeze. The point is, none of us were there, so we can't say what the children's intentions were, whether the sneezes were fake, etc. I will say that if it were my classroom (though I'm not a teacher) I would certainly make an exception to the no talking policy for societal niceties, UP UNTIL the point at which they are being abused.
Shuklack,
For something to be material it would by definition have some sort of physical weight....But there are many things that exist in this world, that are not physical. How about the Moral Law for one?
If you believe that there is evil in the world then you would have to believe that there is a moral law? For there are things that we know "deep-down" which are obviously wrong....no matter what anybody says.
So therefore the case can be made that immaterial "things" do exist.... Happiness exists....that is immaterial, it can't be physcially weighed. Yet Happiness is real and it shows up in our lives at different times.
God is like that......just because you can't seemingly test Him scientifically does not mean that He doesn't exist, because there are many things that are really important to you.....which is the same as God.
As they exist in a way which can not be tested scientifically....
This teacher to spouting out in an interview that he doesn't believe saying bless you makes sense anymore because of this and that shows he took offense because of the religious "tie". The clown should be fired. I am sure his class is doing no better than any other class in the California school system. These failing teachers who deem themselves self appointed social dictators have gotten absurd.
Eris2010,
Actually, he DID make it about religion because his own thoughtless comments to the media only made the situation worse.
"The blessing doesn't make any sense anymore," Cuckovich told the Fox affiliate in Sacramento. "When you sneezed in the old days, they thought you were dispelling evil spirits out of your body. So they were saying, 'God bless you,' for getting rid of evil spirits. But today, what you're doing doesn't really make any sense."
Sorry, but that is not an intelligent comment. It is not intelligent for the simple reason that it is guaranteed to tick off people who take their religion seriously. Whether he is anti-religious or not, his comment can easily be taken as insulting towards religion and/or religious beliefs.
Personally, I'm not religious. I could honestly care less. However, instead of simply sticking with the "no talking in class" argument, he had to make his comment about religion. This does not help his case.
Sorry, but I don't think he's a very smart teacher. He could've easily defused the entire issue, but instead he made it worse.
Speak only for yourself. Only the those who are weak and fearful need to create mythical omnipotent beings to explain their world or their feelings.
Yet somehow your ranting about mythical beings is less than absurd? How very hypocritical of you.
Saying "God bless you" when somebody sneezes has nothing to do with being polite!! What do we care if someone sneezes? Do we say it when someone farts? The saying started when the typical fools believed that your soul just tried to escape your body. The sheeple just continue saying it because that's what they were taught to do!!
Lets replace "God Bless You" with "Go To Hell"
Shuklack- Despite one's intrinsic leanings about spirituality, I find nearly all people ponder the same questions about life that have eluded us since the dawn of time....namely, questions like "Where did we come from?", "Why are we here?", and "What's our true purpose while being 'here'?"......
The question of God's existence goes far beyond the importance of any single individual's belief system. It is a question that has inevitably shaped the very foundations of human existence. Who we are today, as a collective human race, has been greatly influenced by spirituality, and the cultural expression of spirituality that we know of as 'religion'. To simply summarily dismiss spirituality, in lieu of the 'scientific method' and its quantitative reductionism, is to largely ignore the one trait of humanity that has stood the test of time across all cultures and geographies. One can easily make the inference that modern Catholicism was just a means to control populations with fear or whatever......and to a degree that may have some truth to it......but examples of spirituality can be found in the most primitive and remote cultures of the world. I know this is a bit of the ad populum fallacy, but the question remains important in this discussion concerning why ALL cultures have spiritual leanings.
A good place to study spirituality I have found is by reading other's near-death experiences. It totally changed my worldview about God and religion. It strengthened my spiritual resolve, but removed any trust I had in religious doctrine. I feel I understand all religions better as a result.
Go to www.near-death.com for some poignant reading! Hope this helps.
welcome to the teachers world!!
@#! if you do and @#!@ if you don't!
Jmb66 - It originated as a blessing during a outbreak of the bubonic plague. Sneezes were thought to be the first symptoms of the plague. The blessing was thought to halt the disease. We do not say 'bless you' when people fart because it was not thought to be a symptom of bubonic plague...we typically say 'excuse you' when someone farts.
Whew! Just what I was looking for -- the assurance that an unprovable, mythical creature isn't impressed by something. Now I can rest more easily!!
@Garth Vader-no not mythical.
Even I say "Bless you" or whatever comes to mind first and I am an Agnostic. Has no meaning beyond an expression usually handed down by families in response to a sneeze.
I will say that if the kids were faking it and disrupting class then the teacher was right to step in. If it is just an innocent response to a sneeze then the teacher is thinking too deep for younger students and he may want to consider teaching college students instead.
We will likely never know what the conclusion is.
"Do we say it when someone farts"
When I was in jr. high, we'd rate the fart. 9.5,6.8, etc. Also when we'd sneeze or cough, we'd make it sound like "bull@!$%#". We made class-disrupting an art form.
Leave it to a moron like Azrancher to try to turn this into a political issue and take a cheap, unnecesary (yet still not even very good) shot at the left.
This has nothing to do with religion either. The phrase barely has any religious meaning at all any more. I have friends of all different religions and cultures, and when someone sneezes, we all say "Bless you" and no one is offended. Anyone who thinks this is an attempt to bring religion into the classroom is an idiot.
And anyone who thinks that simply saying "bless you" when someone sneezes is a classroom disruption probably never made it out of grade school.
We use do that sneezing crap in HS until the teacher got fed up and the principal came down on the whole class hard. We lost "recess" (a transition brake, after PE. No, the real PE with the 12 minute run that counts as a grade) and had to stay in for lunches for a week. Where this teacher screwed up is that he aired his beliefs. Even though it's his right to believe whatever he want to believe, airing it now take the focus off him controlling his class (as he should) to him being vindictive, because he is not religious. Also, when my mother found out what we were doing, I got punished at home for it. Now a days the parents are up in arms, before then even take a look at the bigger pictures. The kids know this, so they acted out. Should the kids stop saying God bless you or bless you? Heck no, but if they are being disruptive, it doesn't matter what they are saying.
Jahmekan that is an excellent point you made about the teacher airing his beliefs. Wish I had thought of that as he did effectively complicate his own case. Good point!
And sex, don't forget sex. I will never forget Stephen Colbert's interview with atheist Lori Lippman Brown when he asked, But what do atheists yell during sex? ...Oh nothingness, Oh science!!!?
I said God Bless you to a lady in line with me after a sneeze, bascially out of habit but more so out of what I believe is a courtesy like holding a door open.. She replied in quite a nasty tone "I don't believe in GOD" so I promply replied okay then DROP DEAD. My God Bless you was not meant to be offense and anyone offended knows the person saying isn't trying to offend you, why can't you just say thank you and leave it at that... why must everything be offense!!
For Shulack, scabby and the rest of the Liberal, progressive PC horde defending this jerk, let's get a few FACTS, MSNBC left out of their story. Since I lived in area for several years I can give it first hand.
1) Vacaville is just out side San Francisco and has become a very "Rainbow" community and teacher in question isn't closet.
2) He is also very outspoke anti-christian blogger and activist in local community.
3) He specifically stated it was his objection to the "religious origin" of the expression that he was reacting to and docking students grades. Why did he back down so quickly? He knew his actions violated district's grading and discipline polices. i.e. he knew he couldn't get away with it, once he was caught and "called out". Even in Ultra-liberal land.
EliMae,
You are just a hypocrite. You state you won't say "Bless You" but say "salud or gesundheit". You do realize that the first is Spanish form of " Bless You" or modern "to your health", and the second is German for same?? So are you just ignorant, or just a Hypocrite that you don't want to say it in english?
lol@CalifGina
I like that one.
Being from Jamaica, we grew up yelling Jesus Christ whenever anything happens. I remember when I came to the states and I would drop the JC and get the worst looks. Funny thing is that I lost my religion atage 12, but religious references still stick with you, because it is indeed cultural. I have even adopted the God Bless You. Again, if that teacher didn't bring up his beliefs and was being professional, this would have been a non-story. Now it's being made to be an assault on Christianity by some.
htdjpf Vacaville is closer to Sacramento and you'd be hard pressed to make a case of "liberal" by inferences that Vacaville is anything but a sleepy bedroom community with a mix of Democrats, Republicans, and Independents.
Have you been to Vacaville and if so you know the hint by mentioning San Francisco is completely wrong. There are many republicans in the Sacramento Valley. You could have said Davis, California which is in the middle of the two cities and liberal but even that would be a false impression. Vacaville is Vacaville a quiet, nice little family community.
There are certain things I was brought up to do. Open doors for my elders as well as giving them my seat, saying 'excuse me' when I burp or next to squeeze by you, saying "God bless you' after someone sneezes, saying 'hello' or 'goodbye'. These are common courtesies. We didn't use them as excuses to talk during class and they carried no religious meaning to me. They are simply good manners.
People started extending religious phrases as a way to keep from being killed during the Crusades. To say nothing (when the opportunity to evoke God's name) automatically made you a suspect. So who is really the emotion ones here; those who could care less about your blessings - or those who get offended when someone tells them there is no need for such blessings?
I'm more likely to call you a slob when you sneeze. I saw a slob sneeze in line at Walmart and made no attempt to cover his mouth. He was in the only open check out line - so I waited 20 minutes before I checked out - hoping to avoid his germs. Sure enough I came down with his cold the next day. A sneeze can stay airborne for 40 minutes.
Germs can kill you, and as emotional as the right wing is, they probably thought germs were controlled by God - and a simple blessing would save you in times of things like the black plague. So go ahead; pray away your health problems, then bitch when someone points out how pointless that is.
The religious automatically get defensive when you point to history - something about facts troubles them.
BTW; I'm very spiritual and have never felt the need to pass my beliefs on to others - what a snob action to think you know how to be more spiritual than your fellow human - control freaks.
"American culture" doesn't exist and that act is very disruptive in class and the instructor has a responsibility to protect order in the classroom. If students are not allowed to speak at certain times then they must be silent.
These students and their ultra-conservative parents will be in for a rude awakening when they take college entrance exams and "No Talking" really means "NO TALKING."
I suppose they will make another big deal when their rebellious teenager tries to push the limit of the rule, and get's kicked out of the exam. Luckily, Universities are so full that they could care less if some ultra-conservative brat doesn't make the cut... they will still have a long line of students who can follow the rules, waiting to get in.
I am not a believer in that "Magic Guy" in the sky, but have no problem when people say "God Bless you". Funny part of it is, when someone sneezes, I usually say "Santa Bless you", and at times, get a dirty look.
In reality, I couldn't care less what people believe, say or do, I worry about my life, my families life, and friends when need be.
When I was a kid, we said the "Pledge of Allegiance" in school, the word "god" was in it, to me it was just that, a word. If you want to put statues of Jesus, Satan, or any other myth out front of a court house or whatever, that's also fine by me.
Same as in a song, if I like the song, I don't omit certain words, that's silly, I just sing the song as is. Does it mean I believe all that is being sung? No, it means I know the song.
Where I have a problem, is when I am pushed to believe, or not believe in something, or told I have no choice to do something, then we have a problem.
As far as these kids in class, yeah, many tend to forget being young, and pushing the limits as far as they could, it's natural, deal with the results, whatever or however the certain person in charge handles that particular situation. If you don't like it, go do his or her job.
The teacher is an ass. And your comment makes you no better, Azrancher.
htdjpf, Spanish for "God bless you" is "Dios te bendiga" and German for the same is "Gott segnen Sie." Salud and Gesundheit both mean "health" in their respective languages. I'm fluent in Spanish, and have picked up a fair amount of German (though I am hardly conversational in it) from my mother, who was born and raised in Stuttgart. So, no, they are not the same as "bless you." A wish for health is not the same as the presumption to be able to call down God's blessing on a person. I believe in God, and I do not presume to think he will bless someone just because I told him to, nor do I think I have the power to bless someone myself. That's why I say salud or Gesundheit. I can certainly wish for a person to be healthy. That is well within mortal power.
What is ignorant about that?
What this student said is Constitutionally protected speech, both by the Free Speech Clause and the Free Expression Clause so the teacher has an agenda that doesn't belong in an elementary school filled with very impressionable students. The teachers explanation might be proper in a college or even a HS history or sociology classroom but an elementary school is not the time or place.
I am an agnostic and a 20 year member of the ACLU, before people called me a fundamentalist Christian or a LIBTARD lefty.
Polka14,
American culture doesn't exist? Really? What an ignorant comment. You might as well say there is no such thing as a national culture then.
So I guess there's no British, French, Italian, Japanese or any other culture either huh?
Go ahead and try and say why other nations have culture but we don't. I can hardly wait to hear your logical explanation.
Idaho Dragon- It's no use in attempting to have a dialog with Polka14- She's obviously been raised in a fascist country or family(you will speak only when spoken to), dislikes religion, and sees courtesy as a bad idea. Maybe even hates kids.
It's clear that this teacher has a few problems- Likely a difficult class, lack of control, likely ACLU liberal tendencies, atheist tendencies, maybe resents religion because he's homosexual, etc. I think he's probably past his prime and shouldn't stay in the classroom anymore.
I wonder what he would say if you or I said "God bless you" to him sneezing in a store or on the street?
You don't understand. There is no "culture" that is American. Americans hold cultural customs from all of the world's cultures due to immigrants from all nations of the world but there is no culture that is itself "American". In America, your culture is what you want it to be and any citizen can decide to adopt various cultural traits from foreign nations; it could be foods or clothing or music or language or many other customs.
His only problem is trying to maintain order in a classroom with students determined to cause disturbance at the expense of the entire class.
How many sneezes are we talking about?
If it's a few per hour, big deal.
The teacher is just going to have to accept that people sneeze and then other people say "bless you".
Funny, the teacher said nothing about fake sneezes.
So if the sneeze is real, "expect bless you" or "God bless you."
If they were not trying to disrupt, the teacher had better look out. The kids there will know the truth. If they were just being disruptive, then it will probably end here. If not, then the teacher just bit off more than they can chew.
Plenty of people might find it an insult to their faith.
A tube of super glue can make any lock stay locked forever. We all know the pranks like these.
Still, was anyone surprised it was in the Bay Area?
Kinda makes me think the kids knew that saying the word "God" would push the teachers buttons.
(And that hearing the word "God" would anger the teacher).
What an idiot teacher. GOD BLESS YOU!!!
"The teacher believed that students were dramatically sneezing and responding in repetitive fashion “Bless You”"
Which sounds EXACTLY like what you would expect out of a bunch of adolescents- these kids were doing nothing but pushing the envelope to see what they could get away with.
And do you really believe that when someone sneezes it's necessary to bless them because they're expelling evil spirits? Do you do it when they fart? That smells a lot more like what I would expect an "evil spirit" to smell like...
Good to know kids are still using that old routine. We usually saved it for subs though.
I bet they still write Harry Balls, Seymore Butts and Dick Hurts on the attendance. I assume someone know the difference between a real and fake sneeze.
@Devil's Son, that was good, been a long time since I heard those phrases.
Again, you're missing the point that the teacher's stated reason for the punishment is not 'talking' but "When you sneezed in the old days, they thought you were dispelling evil spirits out of your body. So they were saying, 'God bless you,' for getting rid of evil spirits. But today, what you're doing doesn't really make any sense." His reason therefore is stated as being anti-religious.
Here's the section you are referring to.... Nowhere do I see it indicated that is the reason why he told them to stop saying it.
Yet later in the article it says pretty clearly:
The article could be more clear- but with a little applied reading comprehension it is apparent that his issue with the term arose after the kids were doing it in class in order to be disruptive.
Shuklack- Actually you could read into it both ways. You can look at it as how he talked to the reporter about "bless you" being his reason and later once he knew parents were mad he went to administration with a cock and bull story about disruptive class or he could be taking disciplinary action against kids pushing the limits. The fact that he himself stated that he will no longer deduct points for saying "bless you" but still remain in control of the class tells me that it wasn't as much of a disruption and more of his personal feelings on saying "bless you"
Sigh ... only to those people who take the least bit offense if they even THINK someone is anti-religious. Not to most normal people (Christian and non-Christian alike) who recognize an EXPLANATION when they see it!
and @ Johnknows -- it's obvious you've NEVER been in a classroom. As to the comment to the reporter ... read my #1.23 above.
Actually I have been in many classrooms. As stated above this poorly written story can be read in 2 different ways. But the fact that the teacher himself said he will no longer deduct points from students saying bless you tends to lean the story to one side. You assume that the kids being disruptive is the only answer which I do not believe to be the case. Granted MOST times the kids are being disruptive on purpose but the teacher has said some things that seem to make that not the case. If it were pure disruption why would he openly say he will no longer punish the "bless you" kids?
"I bet they still write Harry Balls, Seymore Butts and Dick Hurts on the attendance"
Peter Gozinya and Harry P. Ness usually got a laugh.
I'd actually like to know a little more about the kid he disciplined that way - was he a disciplinary nightmare who always pushed the limits or a good student who responded automatically? Is he always giving the teacher grief - or is this a case of the teacher doesn't like the student and used this as a way to harass him? And don't tell me it doesn't happen; I had a teacher who took a dislike to me the first day and made my life hell for the entire 5th grade - I couldn't get away from her fast enough! She was also free with her hands and decided she could employ corporal punishment despite it being the district's policy that teachers not hit students. Once too often and she ended up taking 'early retirement' to avoid a lawsuit filed by another student's parents two years later.
Can kids be smart @$$e$? Sure they can, and they're going to push it as far as they can just to see exactly what they can get away with, but there's not enough information here to judge was it kids pushing the limit (his opinion) or was this a teacher acting like a petty dictator because it made him feel like a big man. We've read his side of the story - how about the other side?
Reminds me of Carry On from England....tee hee
Shuk, maybe correction was sneezing during reading comprehension in school :) <it's a joke don't be offended>
Silly tame English humor...
English humour is generally much more clever than American humour.
Not everyone appreciates it or "gets" it.
Monty Python is a perfect example. Some of the most hilarious movies ever made, and most Americans look at them and go "huh?"
Seriously?! One might expect it from a "teacher" on the left coast. I guess we should bring up kids to not be polite any more.
What part of "this wasn't about politeness" did you not get, jerk off?
Maybe your kids shold obey the teacher and keep quiet during class unless asked for a comment.
Nobody asked any of you guys for comments either. Take half your own advice. Hypocritical dumba-s
it's a free message board, james, nobody needs to be asked to post here. not even you.
it's also a free country. Bless you. Get over it and stop griping about every trifle.
Get a clue James.
So far, every comment I've seen calling to fire this teacher, or that the teacher was an idiot etc etc seems to be from a person who DID NOT READ THE ARTICLEand makes ignorant assumptions based solely on the headline - which seems a common theme among the anti-left trollers on these boards.
The people who have read the article noticed that it was because the kids were playing the old routine that I recall using back when I was in High School. Using a pleasantry or something 'nice' in excess and exaggerated in order to be a smart-ass basically.
Chances are though, that maybe someone said it for real once - then the teacher explained its origins (because that is what teachers do) - and after that the kids started doing it all the time loudly and obnoxiously (because that is what kids do).
Shuklack - one can only expect ignorance from those mired in the dogmatic quagmire of religion.
Shuklack,
I read the article a couple of times, and I still think the teacher was foolish.
The teacher was foolish for saying anything other than "they were not supposed to be talking". That's ALL he had to say. His comments in regards to the phrase "god bless you" were neither relevant nor necessary. They did, in fact, cast doubt on him. There will be debate on whether he really attempted to punish them because they were disruptive or simply because he may be anti-religious.
Understand, it doesn't matter what the truth is. Perception will always cloud most matters.
He should've just said "They weren't supposed to be talking" and then kept his mouth shut. He didn't and now there is this debate. Sorry, but in my opinion that makes him stupid.
Garth Vader,
Considering the teacher to be stupid doesn't automatically make one ignorant or mired in the dogmatic quagmire of religion. You might want to consider that before making such insulting and hateful comments next time.
I find schools send mixed messages to little minds... for example my son is always in trouble (class clown) he is told he needs to express his thoughts to his teachers and use his words with classmates and then is told to sit down and shut up... catch 22 for a little mind - he believes everything he says is of great importance and has a difficult time knowing what to tell the teacher and what to shhhish about.
Lyndanne is typical of parents who expect the schools to make their child obedient. Let us know how your son adjusts to the work world - when no one is there to guide his poor soul. Man does he have you fooled - probably laughs at you behind your back every chance he gets.
Drain he's 9 hardly ready for the "real" world There is no fooling trust me.. He spouts off he gets in trouble.. he argues with the adult he accpets the consiquences and I HAVE NEVER not backed a teacher or other authority figure not matter what I believe. I am very very active in his school and he knows that I know everything going on.
Please do not make comments about something you know nothing about :) I was merely stating my feelings not his
Thanks!
Sandungo, didn't need that last bit. You're suspended for a day for violating #1 of the Code of Honor.
Lyndanne - you are right, I was overly critical - sorry.
That said - I also know I knew a lot more at 9yo than I was given credit for...lol.
Thanks Drain... not truly sure what he knows use to think he was brilliant realized it was a mothers bias... I now think he just doesn't care and is willing to take consiquences to be able to do what he wants when he wants... life of a Leo boy LOL. He learned in 2nd grade the worst they could do was suspend him and let me tell you he thought that was awesome no school.. till I made him sit at the kitchen table and read all day
If the rule is no talking, the rule is NO TALKING. What's so hard about that? As for manners, I doubt manners had anything to do with it. They were using the sneezes to talk and get away with it. People get angry because the teachers can't control their classrooms, and when one does, he get in trouble. If they students didn't say god bless you, I bet the sneezes would stop. And if it's a religious saying, then it doesn't belong in a classroom of a public school anyhow, unless they allow Buddha Bless, Thor bless, Flying Spaghetti Monster Bless, etc., etc., and etc.
rainlady2: People have been saying God Bless you, Bless you, and Guzuntiet forever in response to someone sneezing, forever. What is the big deal!? It's called politeness. Maybe they should make a rule to not allow sneezing in school, and if it is not a "genuine" sneeze, maybe they should be expelled! C'mon people! If they were causing a disturbance, let's blame the parents for not teaching their kids how to behave. And if the teacher is reacting this way to someone genuinely sneezing, and someone saying God Bless you, then maybe he should take a break from teaching. This world has truly gone crazy. I am so glad I got out of California-where I live, kids will actually hold the door open for you, mow the family yard, say please and thank you. Folks here actually look you in the eye, and say Hello-imagine that! And I'm not gonna tell where I live cause I don't want it ruined by people like there are in CA.
Thank you, getreal. I truly feel sorry for these hopeless maniacs. Yikes.
Well, it's actually gezundheit.
It's actually being pushy and annoying.
And then, get together, find a black guy, and drag him to death behind a ford pick-up...unless they find a gay guy first.
And then, put on their white sheets and hoods with the eye-holes cut out, for the neighborhood BBQ later on...
Yo, bernitch, where you going when you die?
James - he's going in the ground, just like you.
Yo James, can you explain why you don't believe Jesus' blood to be powerful enough to atone for the sins of others?
Are all you people homeschooled?
This is an old routine, and is obnoxious. They are skirting the 'rules' by using a courteous remark in excess in order to disrupt class. Are you people that clueless to not know what this is all about?
I have really no problem with people saying Bless You.... if they want their god to bless me - great, thanks, appreciate the sentiment. I will even say "thanks" - but in this case it's not about politeness.... they are teenagers, 'nuff said.
Bernitch, actually its gesundheit, a German word for good health. No religious connotations. Come ON people, they even spelled this in the article.
Get a life Z1P2... Jesus is dead... god never existed. The only one that is going to atone for your sins is you. god, allah, buda...and on and on and on are nothing but fairy tails made up to scare children of all ages.
If it happens once its politeness. If it happens 10 times the kids are playing around and need to be controlled. We don't know what happened in the class, but I would tend to side with the teacher's version of events. This is not about religion, it is about a teacher having the legitimate authority to exercise classroom control.
Bernitch is clearly bigotted. He makes several assumptions and spouts hatefilled condemnations based on them. Shameful and narrow-minded.
rainlady2:
Really? Did the teacher record the kids "talking" just for talking sake and proving how often they were sneezing and they were just messing with the teacher? If not, then your argument is invalid and this teacher has a problem.
He did -- he deducted 2 points for every comment. That's "recording". Before that, he probably didn't bother.
It's obvious you've never been in a classroom -- or at least in front of one. Teachers have enough paperwork without recording every instance of excess talking unless it gets out of hand. They just discipline and move on with the lesson. Apparently here, it got out of hand and he went on to a sterner punishment (INCLUDING "recording") and the kids got mad. Teens do that when you call them on their immature behaviour you know.
Jkenn19 - Utterly ridiculous. We have let the inmates (children and their idiotic parents) run the asylum (the classroom) for too long. Students need to learn (again) that they must respect their teachers and behave in class. Parents must learn that they must respect their children's teachers and give them the benefit of the doubt. Teachers of course cannot abuse or belittle students but one of the roles of a teacher is to teach children how to behave in group situations. Its inherent in being in the classroom setting. I have never taught below the college level but I can tell you that even at that level it is sometimes a challenge to maintain control of the learning environment. It is incumbent upon the instructor to maintain that control because that is the only way everyone gets to LEARN. You can neither LEARN nor TEACH in a chaotic environment. Those kids that were misbehaving were depriving every other student in that class of the opportunity to learn something. They were being selfish and I applaude this teacher's willingness to attach consequences to the bad choices his students made.
Rainlady2: Yes, all this kid was doing was just waiting for someone to sneeze so he could say "bless you." You nailed it rainlady. Can't get anything by you can they? He didn't know when the sneeze would come, he just knew that one day, someone would sneeze and that would be his opportunity to speak up in class. Wow! You are so brilliant.
I was taking a college psychology class and the teacher was psycho. Once he got up on top of the podium and taught the entire hour and a half lecture from up there. Anyways, one day one of my classmates sneezed. Only one person turned around and said bless you to her. The teacher proceeded to cuss her out and kicked both of them out of the class. I walked out with them.
Rainlady - you have a point in the middle but starting and end, a little lost.
Bernitch - back under your rock please.
Everyone else turning this into a religious debate - you took the authors bait hook line and stinker.
Saying bless you after a sneeze clearly has a religious origin, but many people don't know why it was originally said and anyways, its become a standard saying/reflex. The religious aspect while still there in away is largely gone now or mostly not thought of when someone says this. No different than shaking someone's hand when you meet them.
My guess is what really happened (at least anyone who went to school public or private should know this) the kids were doing the ol sneeze game (lots of sneezes at once, or many spaced out followed in this case by saying bless you) and causing a disruption therefore the teacher told them to knock it off or face the consequences. If this wasn't the case then the teacher would need to ease up but my guess is it's the former not the latter. Therefore the teacher did the right thing. Again nothing to do with religion and class room, or a teacher being unreasonably hard-nosed, just the author trying to stir things up. Something we should all be used to at this point and see past.
It is time to get some common sense America and think for yourselves again, not to mention, ease up and stop with the PC crap, it will do you and everyone some good. Have a great day.
Agreed! Abaondon cultist nonsense, and really think for yourselves again! I couldn't agree more! Have the courage to walk away from this cult gibberish and silly hand-mumbling, and really THINK.
Thank you -it is time -for being the first person in this forum to use some common sense and good judgment #4.17
My logical side says, there really is no reason to ever say "bless you." People say it to be polite just because it's expected, but a cough really serves the same purpose for your esophagus as the sneeze serves for your sinus'/trachea. Nobody says anything after a cough.
The practical side of me says, who gives a sh*t?
Joanne - Thank you
Burning Itch - you missed the point again - please go back under your rock
Stop and think - you make a good point too.
Wow. This thread shows just how truly evil the liberal left has become. But first, I
want to say that I agree with those that think it's the teachers call. I doubt
that the teacher had any problem with it if it only happened once but the whole
class was saying it to act out. I mean, how many time do you hear an entire
room full of adults blessing someone? The teacher has to make the judgment call;
he was the only adult there. This is no longer a religious saying, but a way of
just being polite.
rainlady2: Have we really come to the point that American citizens can no longer even say the word "God", "Allah", "Buddah", or any other proper names or epitheta's of God? I mean forget saying "God" in the pledge, now you want to put to death anyone who says "God" on public land? I am not a religious person, but I'm not a nutcase either. We should have all known that you are just another insane west-coast liberal when you actually listed "Flying Spaghetti Monster" as a name of God. You need help.
Bernitch:
So, you think that the only people that are still polite in this world are racist,
Klan members? If someone says please or thank you then they want to kill black
people? I feel sorry for you left wing liberal wacko's that believe everyone
should be rude to each other. You are even more messed up than rainlady2. Just
because your parents never taught you politeness, kindness, and never showed
you any love, you feel that everyone in this country that is a good person must
have something wrong with them. I feel sorry for you. And one more thing, learn
to spell, it's gesundheit. I would have thought that a Nazi like you could
spell a German word.
rainlady - There is NO reasonable interpretation, or even radical liberal nutcase interpretation, that would ever keep a child in a public school from saying God bless you. The 1st amendment establishment clause has NOTHING to do with what a member of the public says only with what the government does. Frankly if the teacher told the student to not say the word "God" in class he would very likely be violating her free speech and freedom of religion rights. The 1st amendment guarantee of freedom of religion is not intended to keep God or religion out of the public square but to protect religion from interference from the government.
Wasn't this an article on discipline styles ?
1. Teachers mistake, if he is going to have consequences for disruptive behavior, it may help to define what is disruptive, proactive helps ward off most reactiveness.
2. "Bless you" is a contraversy ? Honestly, I use the phrase, 'excuse me.' after any bodily noise I make, including sneezing. What does that make me ?
3. This is turning into a tool to debate, 'That which can not be percieved'?
Myself, I went to college to become a priest, ended up as an athiest. Not modern day athiesm, they have texts and meetings and even a symbol now, kind of sounds like even athiesm has become a religion.
Before anyone argues back. 1. Spirituality is what you feel inside, Religion is what someone else tells you to feel. 2. Omnipotence would make its will known without a need for a book, to be re-written, amendments added and books to talk about the first book. 3. Mono-theism doesn't exist, if there is a devil involved out of control from a singular god.
Having said that, correct: The Big Bang theory is a demonstration of something being in nothing.
noid...
Interesting thoughts. How do you know he didn't define what was disruptive?
Religion could also be considered the outward expression of your spirituality not necessarily just what someone told you to feel.
Perhaps omnipotence chose to make itself known through the book. The rewriting, amendments and other books part of Omnipotent's plan to have us grow into a fuller understanding of Omnipotent's universe.
If mono-theism doesn't exist, how to you explain the presence of Omnipotence?
.
Not to mention that the Big Bang Theory is a demonstration of nothing being in something, and a really fine TV show.
guy up front the retard, yeah who sneezes on purpose? all for a god bless u? no one. teenagers wouldnt waste theyre breath to bless someone when most of them r athiest and dont even go to church. the reason someone sould be sneezing more then one time in a row is called allergies did u every here of them prombably not by ur reaction. and we all know that they have medicine but that dosent work cause we all use too much medicine so someone having allergies is a reason someone could be sneezing so much. and a school or teacher isnt aloud to punish someone for a medical promblem so this teacher should have done nothing about the sneezes. and of course the outburst of bless you, yeah ur reason is stupid saying bless u isnt considered talking so yeah ur stupid.
@rainlady2 Lets clear a few things up before I go on to lay out my post. For one the fact of someone saying God bless you, Buddah bless you, may the force be with you or whatever saying you can come up with after someone sneezes is considered polite especially around here where I live. This is an attempted twist to turn this into a religious debate and a teacher overreacting and nothing more than that. The saying has been around at least as long as this country has possibly even longer. Sayings such as this are a part of our culture and aren't going away anytime soon. Sayings such as, good God, someone screaming Jesus after they see something shocking, are nothing more than that in cases like this.
If someone wants to say Buddah bless you, mohammad bless you, thor, zeus, or whoever more power to them. No offense to you rainlady2 but you need to get over your religious phobia. Oh no someone said God, that offends me. I'm sorry but that's what I hear when I see stuff like this. As for the students and everything I can tell you that when I was in high school not too long ago (man I feel old saying that now lol) if we wanted to talk we found more creative ways than this to "talk and cause disruptions."
I agree that teachers have a right to discipline their students such as giving them a failing grade on a test if they catch them cheating, or take a break from them that they may ordinarily have, or have them temporarily suspended from a sports function etc. However in this case the teacher overreacted which is what you're doing now and others who feel the same way.
You're entitled to your beliefs even though I disagree completely with you. As far as I'm concerned more power to you. When it comes to "religion" in schools allow me to give you a brief crash course in it. If a student wants to walk around with a necklace shaped like a cross, a ring that may have muslim symbols, a shirt that supports scientology, carry a bible with them, or even talk about God at school with other students then he's free to do so. Legally there is nothing you or I can do about it as it's protected by the first amendment. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or abridging the free exorcise thereof." When this was wrote it was written to keep the government from going into the churches and saying, you're preaching x as your next sermon, or alternatively from having to be a memeber of x church before you can vote in a national election.
It also means if I want to wear a shirt with a picture of Jesus on it, carry my bible with me, wear a cross necklace, while also wearing a ring with a cross on it and talk to friends about God, there is absolutely crap all you can do. Take this post for whatever you will but this is nothing more than a teacher overreacting and people looking for conspiracys where there are none.
" Teens do that when you call them on their immature behaviour you know."
And so do parents when the teacher shows immaturity, like you.
you cant have a "christmas tree", it has to be a "hoiliday tree", you cant have "christmas cards", no "christmas parties", no "in god we trust", no "god bless you" now? WOW! yet you can have "yamakas" and "channukiah's" and so and and so on. these now have to be called "mini hat" and "8 candle holder".
i am asshamed with americans that complain about stuff like this! america is a free country, sure you might not be catholic or something but it doesnt give you a right to try and change our religious rights. this has been a big issue for the last decade now, all bc someone was just being polite!
if you have a problem with someone saying "god bless you" or "merry christmas" get the hell out of MY country! Most people wont have an issue if you say happy channukah; hell, 95% would reply back with "happy channukah".
point being, sure, you are trying to please all religions; but the way you are going about it is so 1/2 assed wack @!$%# that it does far more harm then good. not to add, its also breaking our ammendments. people just need to grow up and stop complaining about so much dumb @!$%#. come to the middle east and live for a year and i bet you will be far more grateful for our american ways!
What law says you can't say that??
People can't legally change your religion but they can criticize it.
They can express any opinion they want in OUR country.
Define "American ways", please.
weird thing to say. the middle east is full of messed-up theocracies. yet, a theocracy is what you keep wanting to turn the US into!!
This country has turned so soft. Now a teacher can't even control his students. We can't have teachers telling students what to do that would be insensitive. Spare me. If we can't instill discipline in our youth we've got no chance when they become adults. We have convinced everyone in this country that authority and government is bad. What is our vision? That we can all do as we please no matter the effect on the collective?
Someday one of those sensitive youths will have a boss who directs them to do something and they will reflect on this lack of discipline in their schooling and perhaps come to the conclusion that they can disregard the boss. We all know how that works out -- unemployment.
If we cannot instill discipline in our youngsters, we are doomed,
By the looks of things, the boss would be just as lazy.
No, payurtaxes, he would get a promotion!
Teachers used to smack your hand with a ruler... and the generation that resulted GOT SH*T DONE!!!... this generation is going to complain and whine that they dont get enough hand outs...
Have all you people forgotten parents aren't allowed to discipline there children anymore or teach right from wrong.......it's considered abuse.....SPARE THE ROD...SPOIL THE CHILD...it's in the Bible...but OH! I forgot we are not allowed to do that anymore....bring the bible into anything..........that is why children are the way they are.......
Worst...parental advice...ever!
The bible is hardly a "moral guide" to go by, what with all the divine smiting and killing and sex, and other scores of "immorality." A little discipline and common sense works far better than the bible. But you can have your bible anytime and anywhere you want. So what's the problem?
The best thing you can teach kids is discipline.
Gordy327,
"Spare the rod, spoil the child" is a warning, not a recommendation. Major difference. The bible actually recommends strong discipline and training, not the slackness practiced today.
These kids knew what the hell they were doing, aggravating the teacher and showing off to their peers. They were being divisive in their attempt to control and disrupt the classroom by doing the fake sneezing and then responding out loud verbally. This is not news here folks. The teacher should be given an award for trying to instill some discipline in these bratty kids which is obviously lacking from the home scene. A simple prank can become more than it is meant to be. The offending kids should be given a warning and if the behavior persists, removed from the classroom. Anyone who sees this as a Constitutional right of the students is full of BS. This is not a free speech issue. It also has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with respect to the teacher, fellow students and following the rules of the learning environment. Trying to make this into some kind of "God vs school" issue is off the wall stupid.
Amazing at how many people take that as a recommendation.
what's REALLY amazing is --- how many people still read that stupid goddam cult book and yap about it as if it was relevant.
ANyone know what happen to the woman and the hot sauce? My parents were firm believers in the use of the rod, only in their case it was a wooden spoon.. but I will tell you I was never disobedient in public because I truly believed when I got home my father would literally have tossed me through the wall
"The bible is hardly a "moral guide" to go by"—
…then where does morality come from? How have we determined what's right and wrong, our own magical powers of reasoning? If the human potential is so great, and we are all evolving to such perfect state, why is everything falling apart?
Millions of years and we're still not perfect, what the heck? Killing someone-wrong (10 Commandments) Stealing-wrong (10 Commandments) Taking someone
else's wife- wrong (10 Commandments) Love one another and forgive mistakes, even though there are natural consequences to live with – (the entire theme of Bible).
I can tell, by the way comments turn sour, that you are all just fantastic
people, open minded, un-bias, and educated. (that's sarcasm, BTW) The largest
problem here, with this teacher, is that he's docking students grades for their
behavior, which is not classroom management, it's a cop-out and unfair.
Behavior needs to be taken care of at a behavioral level, not affecting the
student's actual work and GPA. He needs to go back to first year Classroom
Management 101.
Bernitch, I really want to know why you care so much. Who cares if someone believes something that you dont. Maybe you dont like that some of them might try to push religion down your throat, but most of them dont. But you are doing the same thing, you have no proof that a god doesnt exist, yet you still think you have to try and make everyone beleive the way you believe. A god having always existed makes just as much sense as a universe having always existed. Why do you care what i believe, if it makes me happy? I am not gay, that doesnt mean I get pissed off at gay people and try to convince them not to be. I like pizza, if someone doesnt like pizza, I dont try to shove some down their throat. I believe in God, that doesnt mean that I think that everyone who doesnt believe is and idiot. Are you trying to convinve people there is no god? Do you really think you are going to convert someone to your religion of atheism by being rude and hateful? Sorry if this sounds as if Im shoving my beliefs at you but, if this is how rude, hateful, and insensitve to others feelings someone who doesnt believe in god is, then there must be something to this god thing... see what i did there, i look at you and generalize it to all atheists, just like you look at the couple a of christians that bother you and generalize it to all of us
In all fairness, one doesn't require the bible to realize that adultery, stealing, lying, and murder will create chaos within an organized group of people, who organize out of interest in safety, security, and survival, which are necessary precursors to higher learning and artistic and technological development. Any dolt can see how intrinsically destructive certain behaviors are. That doesn't mean people will refrain from doing those things, even if those things are against man's law or the biblical god's law. So with or without the bible, systems of morality can be generated. And with or without the bible, people will continue to violate them.
I know that people who believe they have the "absolute" morality from "God [him]self" don't agree that morality is relative, but there are plenty of other societies and belief systems that would disagree with your system of morality. If that is the case, then morality is relative by definition. Your views on morality come from your culture, whatever that may be.
You're right, you are doomed. This world will soon be ours.
gordy327, u clearly dont know what the bible is? its is a complete novel on the actions of people, the first testament is on the people who work hard and follow authority and have to worry about the wrath of god. the second is about how the children of the people who work hard get soft and disregard authority and the person who follows authority dies but becomes great after. i mean really it has nothing to do with moral its about the human mind and behavior, what do u think satan symbolizes
It's a product of our socio-cultural evolution. Or do you think people were completely immoral before the bible was written?
Reasoning is preferable to some magic deity.
Religion!
Codefied into law before the bible was written.
Of course I do: a collection of myths, fables, and fairy tales written by Bronze Age goat herders.
Man's collective overactive imagination and play on fears. But Satan, like god, is merely an imaginary character.
Religion does not belong in the classroom of a public school, period, end of sentence!
Amen! ;-)
Why? Religion and its influence on mankind throughout all of history and in every walk of life can't exactly be ignored. It has shaped the world as you know it whether you have a God or not. The structure of your house, the layout of the books you read, the way you balance your checkbook all came from Religion. Coming to the New World, the Renaissance, the Roman Empire, the Vikings- you can't pick a time in history where some form of Religion was not the major influence in decision making. You know what you will never read about in any part of history? An atheist.
End of sentence.
And look at the sorry state of the world and all the past and present wars....Yes, religion has influenced our everyday existence and it's a sad, sad tale.
Of course, you cannot get anywhere in US Politics, unless you proclaim your belief in the BuyBull. And, look where all the christian BuyBull believing presidents and politicians have brought thsi country. You're bragging about this? You think all their greed and self-preservation is something to boast about? REALLY?? The BuyBull thumping Dumbya Bush...what good did THAT christian low-life do? He drove us into a financial cesspool!!
Thing is, saying "bless you" after someone sneezes isn't strictly a religious thing. Everyone says it, regardless of whether they're Christian or not.
Not "everyone". In the southern states it is quite common to excuse yourself if you sneeze.
i dont really enjoy the fact that i sneeze. it's usually an allergy, or dust, or something unpleasant, and when i sneeze, my nose runs. it's even more annoying that someone nearby has to shout something at me (like "bless you!") to draw even more attention to my runny nose. thanks, but no thanks. i wish people who felt the need to do such nonsense would just STFU and keep their comments to themselves.
southerneyes...not true. You can read plenty in the history books...Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Kim Jong-il to name a few and then you even have Hitler who hid behind the skirts of religion while plotting to eventually eradicate it.
So what's religious about "gesundheit"? The word is German for "health," and originally was a response to sneezing associate with the plague. It can still be disruptive if used for that purpose, without being religious. Besides, "God bless you" and "bless you" are no more religious today than "Oh my God" or "OMG," or "Jesus!" Just try to stop those exclamations and you'll know what frustration is.
READ THE MUTHERFUKKING STORY. This isn't about religion vs. secularism. It's about disruptive students.
And besides, saying "bless you" as a social nicety hardly has a literal meaning anymore. I'm practically atheist but I still say it out of habit without it meaning a thing.
The separation of church and state.
No one is ignoring it. It's how it's presented and/or advocated in school that it becomes an issue.
I say "Geshundtheit."
There a big difference between government institutionalizing religion and people practicing religion in public school. The first amendment to the constitution established freedom of religion. So when you say that religion has no place in public schools I strongly disagree in the sense so long as they aren't being taught religion in public schools.
For what it's worth though I'm inclined to agree with the teacher's judgement these kids were probably just doing it to be disruptive.
Individual students are allowed to have or express their religion, pray, ect., so long as it is not disruptive to the class. But the school and faculty are prohibited from endorsing or sanctioning religion. Religious teaching in public schools can probably be reduced to philosophy, mythology, or comparative religious studies class, if permissible.
It is "Gesundheit".
Thank you. I always get that wrong. :)
That was probably poor wording on my part. I didn't so much as mean taught religion as prosthelytized to.
That may be, but that was not the reason that the teacher took points away from the students, despite how many idiotic people believe otherwise.
"It's not about religion vs secularism" Right. "When you sneezed in the old days, they thought you were dispelling evil spirits out of your body. So they were saying, 'God bless you,' for getting rid of evil spirits. But today, what you're doing doesn't really make any sense." That is the teacher's stated reason for the punishment. It is the superintendent attempting to rationalize the offense that presents the matter in religion versus secularism terms. As has been said, Read the story, people!
ROFLMFAO!
The coefficient of friction of my automobile came from religion, too!
Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!
Dude, do you do stand-up?
Hey Reality Check, This article has nothing to do with religion in the classroom, but with students being disruptive. Saying Bless you is a courtesy, not a religious statement.
Reality I don't think anyone nowadays is making some huge statement saying God Bless you really get your knicers in a twist on something else... like maybe ban god bless america at a public event.. or maybe you shouldn't use cash anymore or better yet have the g'vt spend billions to produce plates that do not say in God We Trust so you don't feel slighted... then we have to alter the original constitution... This country was founded with a belief in God if he still lingers in some then others need to get over themselves as the world does not revolve around one group. Nothing will ever make everyone happy.
To all of you who claim "separation of church and state" show it to me in the Constitution. In the beginning of our country religion was the basis of the teaching in schools, in fact most of the schools were in Church houses, for more than one reason other than the lack of buildings. The phrase "separation of church and state" comes from a fear of the people in Connecticut when there was a church named "The Church of Connecticut" at that time the people wrote a letter to Thomas Jefferson asking him if there was a "State Religion" and he said that "No state will dictate to the people what religion they must believe" in creating a separation from church and state, this is where the big fuss comes from. As for those that say we are worse off because of religion, we are in the situation we are in because we have, as a nation, turned our back on religious beliefs as a back bone to our society. I have said it many times to people "The more you tell man they are 'nothing more than animals' than they will start to behave as animals." this is in their response to the disbelief of God as the Creator and that we all evolved from Apes.
It's the 1st Amendment. Apparently one's interpretation of the amendment depends on whether one believes religion and government are meant to be mixed. Given that the people who gave us our Constitution were all too familiar with, and suspicious of, the mixing of government and religion, it is pretty safe to assume they entirely intended a "separation of church and state" for both the protection of churches and to keep the nation from becoming a theocracy.
I don't understand why it isn't enough for some religious people to practice their religion in private and at church, they must put it on display whenever possible and, if possible, use it to influence government as much as they possibly can. Many of the Christians in this nation who do this also loathe shariah law... yet, they essentially want their own version of it here. In many ways, we already DO live under Christian "shariah" law. In my mind, it speaks volumes about one's lack of faith to think it must be legislated. It also gives away one's fears and worldliness. Not very, truly, Christian behavior.
7 deleted, Bernitch beginning a thread by smearing all christians:
Didn't get any better from there - James-4208835 and Bernitch made it more personal immediately. Bernitch, you're suspended for a week for violating #1 of the Code of Honor; James-4208835, you're suspended for a day.
This is what amazes me about the Newsvine. I may not agree with everything Bernitch has said, but at least he speaks factually.
Christians can come on here, day after day, threatening people with their hellfire and brimstone remarks "you better believe or else God's gonna burn ya!" And then, Bernitch makes a statement, and though a generalization, he's not far from the mark at all. And he gets banned for it.
Quite an amazing degree of censorship, actually...
The 1st Amendment, which has been interpreted by the SCOTUS to incluse separation of church and state in their landmark case: Reynolds v. US (1878), thereby establishing legal precedent.
What's your point? That has no bearing on the constitution or the founding of our country.
See my aforementioned SCOTUS reference, which utilized Jefferson's letter as a "declarative authority" when rendering their decision. They understood the intentions of the Founding Fathers, especially as to how it related to separation of church and state.
What do you base that on? Your own opinion?
No one ever said we evolved from apes. That's a common misconception repeated as some mantra by those who do not understand evolution. Also, belief in god or a creator is just that-a belief, with nothing objective or empirical to support any such claims.
Show me, RIGHT NOW, where in the constitution it says that or even implies it! I can tell you with absolute certainty that you're flat out wrong in that claim!
Chefez- Stalin and Lenin were both Christian Orthodox. Mao was a Buddhist until he was a Religion himself. Kim is a Buddhist and allows most all religions in his country now. Hitler was going to wipe out a Religion, but not all of them.
Garth- No I don't do stand up. However, modern geometry and algebra were created so that temples could be constructed straight, in funny shapes and while on uneven ground, so yes the coefficient of your engine and it's variables did get created to propagate religion in a way. Sorry if that's news to you. Christians aren't the only game in town, haven't been around that long and aren't to blame for everything. May the force be with you.
I find it difficult to believe that with all the hugely dramatic and world changing events in politics, finance, and healthcare occurring today, that this story was even posted. Snore.....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
You fail to see how the Tea Party politics plays into this? I guess the events in politics are beyond your grasp.
stop blaming politics for the problems in your life.
I found HowAbout's post to be quite thoughtful and correct. I also wonder why certain articles are posted that seemingly have no real merit or importance, all the while major concerns about our society and governance are either nonexistent or quickly shuffled to the archives.
Chris, you were out of line to jump all over the first post with your ad hominem attack. Why did you feel it was necessary to post your condemnation?
in this country even when you farted the reply is god bless you. everything is now an issue. shut up!
What? When you fart? Where the hell do you live?
Stinkville I presume... though I have to disagree with Grass-Show on this one, nothing smells good in stinkville.
Some of you may actually get that reference, but most won't, if you don't get it, don't worry about it.
If the instructor is deducting points for saying "bless you" to the sneeze, he should deduct points for the sneezer if they don't cover their sneeze.
He is teaching a health class after all...
Deducting points from an assignment for something so trivial is just wrong.
Speaking during a test or classroom assignment is not trivial. At least it wasn;t when I went to school.
Yea , but what came first- the sneeze, or the talking? If that SOB hadn't have sneezed, none of this would have happened. Maybe we should blame the janitor for not dusting well enough. HAHAHA This is so ridiculous-I can't believe it! And the anger coming from those intolerant bast**** towards Christianity and religion over something so trivial just shows how many intolerant haters there are in this world.
yeah, christians should really be the only ones allowed to be hateful and intolerant. it just isn't fair when people are allowed to hate them right back!
Yea? And what has a Christian done to you lately?
Just what I thought-Nuttin!
yes. i am sure that Nuttin is exactly what you think ALL THE TIME!
You really want to open a dialogue about what Christians are responsible for lately? Given the state of the Tea Party politics and the *questionable* practices of the Churches placing known pedophiles with congregations and not disclosing the nature of their transfer... you probably don't want to open that for further discussion. That's a deep dark well...
Bernitch- Nearly every single post you have submitted in this forum has been sophomoric, childish, and inflammatory. If you don't have anything poignant to say, then just leave it alone, would ya? Until then, I'm flagging every one of your posts that is meant to insult others. Grow up.
Politically correctness has crossed the line in school, while I believe bullying should be a federal offense common courtesy should be left alone!!
Political correctness has crossed every line. You're absolutely right about bullying.
14 deleted, Anonymous55 posting Cuckovich's alleged email. Don't do this. Newsvine shouldn't be used to post anyone's work email, newsmaker or not.
Kids will be kids. I'd rather hear them doing this than smoking dope in the back of the class rooms. I think the kids are growing up just fine. Who knows, they may even grow up and be a Health Instructor.
Power trip much? By all means, let's punish politeness.
power trip much? let's keep cultism out of public schools with the same diligence and "politeness" that mind-numbing BuyBull-cultists use to keep science out of their churches.
bernitch where are you going when you die?
nobody knows the answer to that. nobody will know until they're dead. pretending to know the unknowable is simply the act of a moron, or the act of a coward who is afraid of dying (or simply afraid of living without a crutch).
cheers!
you wouldn't heed the warning when it is given? if you're waiting for death, i'm afraid it will be too late.
no proof that it is factual or that it should be heeded. your cult is as unprovable as the other thousands of gods and cults that have ever been yapped about on this planet. suggesting anything else is ridiculous and uneducated.
your BuyBull threats and hellfire/damnation screeching are all silly and uninteresting.
i did none of the sort. just asked you a simple question. your absurd accusations are signs of conviction. faith in a higher Being than yourself is not silly, unless of course, you really think you're that important. that would be a little arrogant, to think that you're your own god, don't you think? i don't understand your train of thought. you will never get rock solid proof from faith, just a peaceful, pleasant feeling in your heart. it will replace that angry part in your soul that is oh-so-evident by your posts. when that happens, you will know that it is real. all of this did not come from nothing. that contradicts all of the science and math that you hold so dear.
that was YOUR comment, above. and that is directly alluding to the BuyBull threats i'm talking about. and you know it.
stop telling lies, jim, and own your words. my goodness, you're becoming more and more cowardly when it comes to owning what you say yourself!
being factual does not mean one is "angry" jim, or that one hates your mythical god creature. again, this is your own silliness and low-self-esteem that is peeking through. you know, like voting for your own posts the very second you post them... you do it because you think that validates what you say... again, you really need to grow up!
...Because I have two accounts up tabbed side by side. Man, your ego is huge.
In the ground. Although I'm personally opting for cremation.
Wanna bet?
That much is obvious.
People can have that, sans faith.
Where's you proof that God doesn't exist, Gordy? Since you require it so much to form an opinion. Wheres your evidence that we came from blue algae?
A logical fallacy: you can't prove a negative. If you posit a claim that there is a god, you bear the responsibility of proving it.
Evolution!
So I will ask this again..... Where does logic come into believing (strategical word usage) that you came from a plant leaf. And where did this leaf originate from? Where did the first atom come from, since it all goes back to that. Cells divide, that is how they come into existence.... Meaning there MUST be a parent cell. Where's your logic, gordy?
PS they haven't proven evolution. It is a theory. You are inconsistent. No one has proven anything. There were people who bore witness to Jesus' existence, crucifixion AND resurrection. That is A LOT more proof than your evolution theories. You are being way more lenient with you belief in science than you are with our Creator. Open your mind a little bit, you'll see the silliness.
Improper word usage. It is not a belief, but rather an acceptance of a valid scientific theory, based on the available evidence.
Probably from earlier cellular organisms.
The Big Bang!
That's how they reproduce.
Right where I left it. The real question is, where's yours, As you seem to imply a supernatural explanation for such phenomenon? That's not logical!
Evolution is backed by loads of supporting evidence and none to discredity it, to the point where it is accepted as factual and proven by the scientific community. But I see you do not understand what constitutes a scientific theory.
That's not proof! That's subjective and anecdotal, based on belief, dogma, and heresay. I'll stick to factual evolution over religious delusions anyday thank you!
Not at all. I require the same from both in order to be accepted (believed if you will): Evidence. By all means, provide evidence of your god!
The only thing that's silly is belief in some invisible, unknowable deity, as factual with no evidence whatsoever.
Gigantic rocks in motion that have existed infinitely with no creator seems pretty supernatural.
By the way... My degree is in organic chemistry. After mastering the subject, I see there is no way that these series of events could have happened. Odds are against it, gordy. Sucks, huh? Find a new religion. Science isn't the way to go... Many holes.
G'night. Good luck in your search for the Truth!
I didn't say something existed infinitely.
Are you stating verifiable scientific fact, or only your own opinion? I'm going with opinion! Somehow, I doubt your academic claims.
Strange comment coming from someone who supposedly studied in the sciences.
I don't have one as it is. What's your point?
Religion is one big hole in itself. Kind of like an intellectual black hole.
"Truth" is rather subjective and philosophical, especially in this context. I prefer facts and evidence over your "truth."
Oh look, a debate between religion and science that contributes nothing to the century-long argument between evolution and creationism.
If anything, it shows the inherent illogic of creationism.
@james
I'm surprised that anyone supposedly in a scientific field could misunderstand the difference between the common usage of the word 'theory' and scientific theory.
I'm too lazy to tell you why you're wrong in my own words so I'll let wikipedia do that for you:
Oh, the irony!!!
Yeah, sure there were. There were a lot of people who saw flying saucers and little green men, too. There was a guy who took orders from his dog and shot people, too. I saw a guy once who talked to invisible people.
You're no different than any of these deluded people, although I'd be more inclined to entertain the possibility of flying saucers and little green men.
As for your contention that you've a degree in organic chemistry? It's possible, I suppose, but I doubt it. Everyone on the internet has a huge penis, after all.
This website also does a great job of explaining:
http://www.evolution.mbdojo.com/theory.html
But, don't expect some of these ham-hocks (like James) to actually go there and read. Learning isn't high on their list.
ROFLMFAO!! That was his funniest post so far!
Did you even need a high school diploma to be a cop?
Maybe he meant "orgasmic chemistry".. that's nothing to sneeze at.
Fsck sake you pinheads! Religion and aliens? Really? All because some kid sneezed, you manage to find a religious battleground? Get a fscking grip.
No. It is alleged, in a book written by men, long after the events supposedly took place, that people claim they saw a resurrection.
I'm writing right now that I saw The Flying Spaghetti Monster in my back yard playing catch with the Easter Bunny. so it must be true because it was written down by man.
well said, arg. it's amazing how many people believe the crap in that cult book, just because "somebody" wrote it down, it therefore must be a fact...
May I put my two cents worth in here?
James definitely implied a threat when he said "heed the warning" and "it will be too late." Christians like to threaten people who do not share their beliefs.
Bernitch, on the other hand, is so anti-religion that he cannot carry on an objective, unbiased conversation.
I am an agnostic and here is what I do. If someone says "Bless You" I simply say thank you.
If someone says "I'll pray for you" during a time of trouble I also say thank you.
If someone says "I'll pray for you" meaning I"ll pray that you find Jesus" or some such nonsense, I say "Hey, knock yourself out."
James did imply a threat.
And I can hardly blame bernitch or anyone else for being anti-religion. In this day and age, there's a whole host of good reasons for that kind of position!
Why is it that any comments from people from Arizona always seem to drag their narrow minded political views into ANY issue and then make rude assumptions about those invovlved?
Must be the heat just creates more puckered up adzholes down there.
Damn, they're nasty...............they make rattlers seem cute.
HUH? How did Arizona get into this discussion? You must be one of them illegal aliens. Arizona's just trying to enforce the laws of the USA, nuthin wrong with dat!
Arid Zone-A.
Too hot for humans.
I live in Arizona. I like it. I'm also a quite reasonable person.
OH FOR GOD'S SAKE...
I am an agnostic and if someone said "God Bless You" after I sneezed I would reply "Thank You."
That stupid teacher should be fired.
Not really. i dont really enjoy the fact that i sneeze. it's usually an allergy, or dust, or something unpleasant, and when i sneeze, my nose runs. it's even more annoying that someone nearby has to shout something at me (like "bless you!") to draw even more attention to my runny nose. thanks, but no thanks. i wish people who felt the need to do such nonsense would just STFU and keep their comments to themselves.
Only if you keep your mean God-hating comments to your own self first, mr bernich. don't be a hypocrite, now ;-)
i don't hate mythical creatures, jim. that's another one of your silly lies that you keep repeating. people dont sit around and hate on leprechauns, pixies, unicorms, or Odin. why would they hate on cult creatures and mythical little things like that? it makes no sense...
again, you're being silly and drmatic, telling your little lies like a child. doesn't your cult book say anything about telling lies about other people (something about bearing false witness, perhaps?) does your cult have any statement about basic values like honesty? do you have the courage to live those values every day -- or is it just lip service, to cover up your cowardice and hatred for other people with different opinions?
Bernitch, you come off as a decidedly hate-filled annoying person. I'm glad I don't live in your neighborhood. What do you do, scream "Get off my lawn!" at the kids? Your "BuyBull" word usage and complaints about sneezing come off as remarkably self-centered and disrespectful of others.
Why would I need to do that? My neighbor (another retired cop) and I built the local Skate Park for the kids in 2004, and it gets a great deal of use... You're a pretty creepy little thing, correction, with all your strange little comments. You strike me as surprisingly uneducated, and grossly incorrect in all your assumptions of other people who post here. It seems you find people who disagree with you, and since you have no material reply, you go off into these personal assessments of them and start suggesting these weird scenarios about what they do at home and with their neighbors.
You really are a bizarre little creature...
Nothing religious belongs in the classroom. Christian. Muslim. Atheist. All of these things do not belong there. Imo if a student says "God bless you" in response to a sneeze, then whatever. A teacher should not say it though. But if the rules were "no talking" then any talking violates it, so it's up to the teacher to enforce it.
My question is why is this a news story? Oh, that's right. News sources no longer care about actual journalism, they just want stories that fuel the "us vs them" fire. Pathetic...
Perhaps "Geshuntheit" would be better.
Umm.. really God isn't religion. God is the One who gave you life, whether you acknowledge that as the truth or not. So if someone wants to say God Bless You to Me, they should be able to do it any frickin' where they want. Amen and God Bless You!
God is on only the foundation or focal point of most religions.
Uh nope. My parents are responsible for that.
I don't, mainly because that's just dogmatic BS with no proof whatsoever.
Geshundtheit!
LMAO respecturmaker ... you can accept whatever you like as "truth" but that doesn't make it so. And the issue here was not that the students were using the phrase "God Bless You" but were being disruptive. No talking is not a difficult concept, that doesn't mean no talking UNLESS someone sneezes... it means NO TALKING without permission.
Madd-dawg, the reason this is news is precisely because the teacher framed the punishment as being anti-religious. The school administration is trying to backtrack that fact, but the teacher is on record as stating that the god reference itself is inappropriate. If the teacher had said, "Look, I told them 'no talking' or I'd take points off and they were using this as a clever attempt to get around that rule so I punished them," that would be one thing; but he didn't say that. What he said was, "When you sneezed in the old days, they thought you were dispelling evil spirits out of your body. So they were saying, 'God bless you,' for getting rid of evil spirits. But today, what you're doing doesn't really make any sense." By making this part of his justification he seems to reveal an active anti-religion viewpoint that itself - however goodly intentioned - is a violation of the Second Amendment. Prohibiting the 'free exercise thereof' is as much a violation of basic Constitutional rights as "establishing".
There is nothing truthful or factual about your statement. It is only an unprovable cult claim. You cannot even prove your cult-god exists, let alone that it made anything. My parents created me; there is no evidence anywhere that can even suggest that some mythical creature had anything to do with it.
Cheers!
Correction.,
The teacher made that statement in an interview. He wouldn't have been interviewed if it hadn't already become a controversy because many assumed there was an "anti-religious" angle to his actions. With that as the case, the religion was already brought into the conversation, and perhaps in defence, he made this statement. Being that the interview was on FOX, chances are, the question was a pointedly religious one and he was trying to clarify that saying "bless you" is no longer a religious act.
When most people say "bless you" after a sneeze, the thought of god actually blessing the sneezer does not even cross their minds, just as when I stub my toe on the table and blurt out "god dammit!", I am not actually asking any particular god to damn the table.
It's an expression. Move on.
Also, the Second Amendment does not protect and religious or speech rights. Before you accuse someone of going against the constitution, you may want to read it and get to know it yourself.
Bernitch, you are way too passionate about the subject of God to be a true agnostic atheist. Those of us that are agnostic atheists do not really care that much about what other people choose to believe. You make us look like the bunch of cult followers that you accuse others of being. Calm down, this is about classroom control, not someone saying “bless you”. This is America; let people believe in whatever they want to believe in.
Nothing religious belongs in the classroom.
Tell that to the kid praying his @$$ off because he didn't study for his exams and knows he's toast if he fails... :)
The teacher should be able to dictate when talking is allowed. Most people can't control a sneeze, but there is no excuse for others talking or making comments. I was brought up saying God bless you after a sneeze, but you can bet I never said it in a classroom when the teacher expected to have the attention. There is a lot af material to cover, and it interrupts the flow of the presentation. And you can bet that no one said it during a test. Any talking in our high school during a test was grounds for flunking.
Hopefully the admin is going to back the teacher up, otherwise I can only imagine the constant shenanigans the students will put him through. If the students are that religious that one sneeze can't go by without a "God bless You" then they should go somewhere where its acceptable to interupt the teacher. Do they say it in church? Do they say it in the bathroom/ To complete strangers, to people who may not even believe in God?
Its LUDICROUS that christians think everyone is persecuting them every time something like this is happens. I like the comment above about Budda bless you, Allah bless you etc. What happens when people start saying that? And other cleansing bodily functions? what about those? Just when is the teacher supposed to teach?
Its disruptive and they not only deserve points off, they need to apologize to the teacher and classmates. ]
I hope the admin allows the teacher to control the classroom as he sees fit, or else they can come monitor the classroom every hour of every day and determine which infractions deserve punishment. LET THE TEACHER TEACH, AND THE PUPILS WILL LEARN MORE THAN JUST THE SUBJECT, BUT ALSO ABOUT LIFE, SELF CONTROL, RESPECT, AND CONSEQUENCES......
lol it's ALMOST as ludicrous that your crowd will fight til the death for the muslims who want to wear their towel on their head on a roller coaster. but the rules shouldn't apply to them!!! just the white man. ahhhhh! so frustrating.
ah james, yes -- but don't forget, the ACLU has fought for the rights of people in your cult as well, so, dont screech about the "left" or civil rights TOO MUCH, because, before you know it, one of you lowlifes will be running to the ACLU once again for their help soon enough!
Bernitch, you are way too passionate about the subject of God to be a true agnostic atheist. Those of us that are agnostic atheists do not really care that much about what other people choose to believe. You make us look like the bunch of cult followers that you accuse others of being. Calm down, this is about classroom control, not someone saying “bless you”. This is America; let people believe in whatever they want to believe in.
I'm sure Bernitch has no problem with that. I think the rest of your accusation about Bernitch is made of baseless assumptions. Problem is: Bernitch makes a factual statement, and all sorts of people get riled about it.
My guess is this -- because I also have no problem with people who believe in their little cults and religions and invisible beings. It's when they take that garbage and force it upon everyon else through manipulation of gov't and our laws. Does that create PASSION? Yes. Not a passion about their ridiculous gods (like your suggested), but a passion about what they do as cult groups to try and control what the rest of us in society do. This is a secular nation. I personally don't care what people do inside church buildings - as long as it's legal and doesn't hurt children (which goes on far too much, too, but that's a whole different discussion). What makes ME passionate (and bernitch, too, I'd wager...) is when they try to force their mythical garbage onto the rest of us.
Of course, if the incident was taken out of context and blown up by the media, I retract my statement that the teacher was wrong.
cool cool. well said. :)
It's the media and the individuals on these forums that turned this article into a battle of good versus evil. Bless you is just a common courtesy not a way to push anyone's beliefs on someone.
yeah, joanne -- actually, it often is. i've even noted, many times, how believers use the "i'll pray for you" as a back-handed comment toward someone.
cheers!
people need to lighten the F up a little bit ...
Bernitch, you are way too passionate about the subject of God to be a true agnostic atheist. Those of us that are agnostic atheists do not really care that much about what other people choose to believe. You make us look like the bunch of cult followers that you accuse others of being. Calm down, this is about classroom control, not someone saying “bless you”. This is America; let people believe in whatever they want to believe in.
You are the reason why we get a bad rap.
This issue is nothing to sneeze at ...
Why do you have a problem with someone having manners, respect, perhaps concern for others or for that matter, the 2nd Amendment of "our" Constitution? Numerous incidents like this have reported recently. In fact (even) the ACLU is taking two school districts to court because a student expressed his honest opinion. In one case the teacher tried to call the students response hate speech, but that didn't fly.
I agree teachers must maintain control of the class room. However, that does not give them the right to punish or ostracize those that have different values than them. Notice all most all of these instances come from teachers that have socialist or leftist tendencies or agendas of their own.
The 2nd Amendment? Learn your Bill of Rights before you start using it as a defense to bitch about the ACLU and "socialists".
I am an agnostic athiest, and I have no problems with the phrase "God bless you". I don't believe in anything, so how can I be offended? There are some wacko's like Bernitch that are extreme left wingers that wish to declare war on religion. That's not all of us, just a few crazies. I don't believe in any religion or any higher power so I'm not wasting my time on it one way or another. I have no problem with anyone praying to any God they wish at any time in any place, just don't let in interfere with the rest of us, such as blocking an exit or praying loudly in a classroom during a lecture etc. Anyway, I believe that this is about classroom control, not the phrase. If kids were doing this intentionally to disrupt the class then the teacher needs to take control of the classroom. I'm sure that an isolated "God bless you" was not a problem. The entire class doing this on purpose throughout the day to avoid learning is a problem.
VFW - I'm glad you do not get so easily offended. I may have misread the article because the beginning didn't seem to be about a disruptive class that seemed to come out later. I think if a child sneezes (a real sneeze) and someone says Bless You that there should be no reprimand... I honest can't help it I hear a sneeze and say bless you, I see a funeral and say an our Father - it was ingrained into me growing up.
You keep saying that. Agnostic atheist? Does that mean you don't know if you don't believe?
LMAO
GIVE ME A BREAK!
Has it really been so long since you were a little punk that you've forgotten how fun it was to torture a teacher?
And that's exactly what these little darlings are doing. To bad the teacher can't just slap them around a little like they did back in my day.
*Too bad
Looks like your teacher should've slapped you around a little bit more.
LOL
LOL
I think the parents need slapped for not teaching the kids discipline and respect. Perhaps the parents should put their crack pipes down, get off the couch and observe how their little angels act in class.
Bunch of wimps...I went 12 years to Catholic school and the nuns BEAT discipline into us.
Not so sure that's something to brag about, Tina...
What the hell!! Don't we have better things to do?
Nothing.
kimcar-
Apparently not.
This is just a case of people on both sides making a big deal out of something.
The teacher was a jerk for deducting his class's scores for displaying common decency towards another human being (which is a rare trait these days anyway.) The people claiming this was anti-religious are obviously just looking for something to whine about.
Since when is being courteous a bad thing?
As a teacher who routinely gets the "rough kids", I can tell you that kids still do the "fake sneeze" to cause a disruption and get all 30 of the other kids to say bless you. This can go on and on until you've got all 30 kids pretending to sneeze and all 30 kids saying bless you to every sneeze while they're trying to take tests/follow instruction/etc. It's a disruption plain and simple. Reading the end of the article it shows that the Superintendent is following up but that it was a matter of disruption and not a one-time issue of a person with a legitimate sneeze. Clearly the teacher has had this problem before with students who feel it is ok to disrupt the learning of others and has decided to teach them a lesson...I support him 100%. We would all be livid if our children came home and said "I couldn't learn anything today because everyone was fake sneezing so they could talk and say bless you and I failed the test because I couldn't concentrate." Then we'd be mad at the teacher for not controlling the class. We can't have it both ways.
Although I do agree that people on this message board are trying to stir something up and throw in religious and political views on a simple matter.
Matt, I agree with you to a point. I, too, am a teacher. The initial argument, that too many here seem to ignore, is the teacher's given reason. He doesn't frame it as a discipline issue per se, but as inappropriate due to his perceived understanding of the origin of the phrase - of which he clearly disapproves. Only the administration is quoted as framing the issue about student actions intended to disrupt the class. If this were the basic reason, why didn't the teacher say so at the time?
You're hearing the teacher through the distortion of the media.
Something doesn't jive here. The teacher in a truly tolerant and multicultural manner stated that he didn't think that "God Bless You" made sense in the 21st century. The Superintendent, not the teacher, said the students were continually disruptive. It looks like the PC police need to investigate a possible case of ethnic intimidation.
deleted
Ahhhh yes Nazi America !!! fire the teacher ..........................
It is not about firing a teacher, it is about a teacher using common sense and "not lying about a sneeze being equated to "talking".
This teacher is trying to make a (political/religious) statement that makes no sense and he is being held to account for his statement.
replytoj001
Even in the article, this came before any "(political/religious)" statement. The sneezing isn't being equated to "talking", the repetitive and excessive "bless you"s are.