One more thing for Obama to mess up.

He seems to have a reverse 'Midas Touch'. Everything Midas touched turned to Gold. Everything Obama touches turns to (well, you know).

Perhaps if Abbas changed the name of their homeland from Palestine to Palestein it would help (courtesy of John Stewart). lol

Yep, it's a Midas touch. Everything he touches turns into a muffler, a rusty muffler.

Why is an 80's Swedish rock band addressing the UN?

The resolution noted Britain's planned termination of the British Mandate for Palestine and recommended the partition of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab, with the Jerusalem-Bethlehem area being under special international protection, administered by the United Nations. The resolution included a highly detailed description of the recommended boundaries for each proposed state.^[1] The resolution also contained a plan for an economic union between the proposed states, and a plan for the protection of religious and minority rights. The resolution sought to address the conflicting objectives and claims to the Mandate territory of two competing movements, Jewish nationalism (Zionism) and Arab nationalism, as well as to resolve the plight of Jews displaced as a result of the Holocaust. The resolution called for the withdrawal of British forces and termination of the Mandate by 1 August 1948, and establishment of the new independent states by 1 October 1948.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

They are within their rights whether the US and Israel want it or not. Why was the State of Israel created since 1948 and the State of Palestine was left to rot on the vine even after the UN report? Shame on the US to preach to the World regarding freedom and democracy, spending our hard earned tax dollars in war to spread 'so called democracy' and not allow the same for the Palestinian people? Shame on the US to speak from two sides of the mouth.

Roy (well, you know): I believe Barry Soetoro is the term to which you were referring.

Valhalla, tell that to the 'American' Indians who now live in Gaza like reservations with disproportionately high suicide, alcoholism, obesity, coronary and etc. disease without jobs or positive outlook for any future. America is not innocent of the atrocities Israel is executing on an oppressed people. Not only has she done it before she continues to support such atrocities.

Peter, the reason the Palestinians have no statehood is that they refused the same deal that the Israli's recieved. I agree they should have a state, but they have always walked away from the table.

The Muslim Arabs got over 75% of the real-state out of that Mandate. They have had a state for quite some time. It is called "Jordan".

Bill Clinton said it well in this article. The current impediment to peace is the Israeli government and hardliners. Read this article:

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/09/22/bill_clinton_netanyahu_killed_the_peace_process

BTW, I am not an America hater and you can not prove otherwise. I am calling you out to prove your assertion. I love America when she is on the right track. When she leaves the right track it is MY RIGHT and MY DUTY to speak out until she is righted. You can not silence my voice with your false claims. I am sorry you are on the side which would deny a group of people their right all the while providing weapons and money for the other side to perpetrate genocide.

Jason: I doubt your figures, but I do concede I just don't know if you are correct or not in raw numbers. However, the toll of casualites of women and children attributed to Israel includes a deliberate placement of these non-combatants in strategic positioning so as to shield the actual Palestinian fighters. Then, when women, children, elderly, sick are killed the Palestinaians produce copious crocodile tears about it. Also, I have never heard of the Isralis deliberately targeting such vulnerable targets as school buses. To be sure, I am not familiar with the history of every incident, but if it was at all common, I would have heard of some such incidents. On the other hand, I have frequently heard of Palestinians targeting non-combatants OFTEN and then openly bragging about it.

Those of you who say there is no such things as Palestinians are full of yourselves and, in my opinion, spreading misinformation to further your own agenda. Palestine is a conventional name, among others, used between 450 BC and 1948 AD to describe the geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and various adjoining lands.

The name "Palestine" is the cognate of an ancient word meaning "Philistines" or "Land of the Philistines". The Hebrew name Peleshet (פלשת Pəléshseth)- usually translated as Philistia in English, is used in the Bible to denote the southern coastal region that was inhabited by the Philistines to the west of the ancient Kingdom of Judah. The first clear use of the term Palestine to refer to the wider region as defined in modern times was in 5th century BC Ancient Greece. Herodotus wrote of a "district of Syria, called Palaistinê" in The Histories, the first historical work clearly denoting the region of Palestine as a wider region than biblical Philistia.

Approximately a century later, Aristotle used a similar definition in Meteorology, writing "Again if, as is fabled, there is a lake in Palestine, such that if you bind a man or beast and throw it in it floats and does not sink, this would bear out what we have said. They say that this lake is so bitter and salt that no fish live in it and that if you soak clothes in it and shake them it cleans them," understood by scholars to be a reference to the Dead Sea.

Robinson, writing in 1865 when travel by Europeans to the Ottoman Empire became common asserts that, "Palestine, or Palestina, now the most common name for the Holy Land, occurs three times in the English version of the Old Testament; and is there put for the Hebrew name פלשת, elsewhere rendered Philistia.

During the Byzantine period, the entire region (Syria Palestine, Samaria, and the Galilee) was named Palaestina, subdivided into provinces Palaestina I and II. The Byzantines also renamed an area of land including the Negev, Sinai, and the west coast of the Arabian Peninsula as Palaestina Salutaris, sometimes called Palaestina III.

The use of the name "Palestine" in English became more common after the European renaissance. It was officially revived by the British after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and applied to the territory that was placed under The Palestine Mandate. That mandate existed until the 'Creation' of the state of Israel in 1948 by UN mandate. The same process which the people who identify themselves as Palestinians, due to their extended heritage in "geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and various adjoining lands" wish to use to have their status in the world returned.
I hope this has been enlightening to some. For those who doubt anything I have written, the internet and your local library can help you with that.

To those who persist in spreading falsehoods, I wish to remind you of the laws of Moses against bearing false witness against your neighbor. I sometimes wonder if the whole Palestinian issue is a test from God for the Israelis. God is not in a hurry, and if he promised something, it will happen when the time is right. It is not for man to speed or hinder that time. My opinion. Those who feel they have to push the Palestinians out of the 'promised land' and hurry the creation of the third temple, have no true faith in God. God expects us to treat our neighbors, all of them, with honesty, respect and kindness, regardless of our opinion of them or their religion. If you cannot reach your religious or social goals in that framework, you are turning to the 'dark side' and you will not be blessed in your efforts.

This brings me to the issue of the upcoming Palestinian effort to achieve statehood at the United Nations. I find this administration's expressed intent to Veto that effort disturbing and hypocritical. We say we support Palestinian statehood, yet oppose the only realistic path for creating it. If my knowledge of history serves me right, Israel was created in the very same manner. There were no negotiations with the people living there at the time, nor were the future creators of the State of Israel sitting back peacefully waiting for the UN to do this. It was a simple vote of the United Nations which created a viable state from violence and kaos. That state has survived considerable international opposition. Why won't this path work where the Palestinians are concerned?

One of the main recruiting tools of Al-Qaida and Arab extremists is to paint the United States as being racially biased against Arabs. Since the U.S. wholeheartedly supported the creation of Israel by groups who had been committing a wide range of terrorist attacks, against both the British and their neighbors, our stated intent to Veto a UN resolution creating a Palestinians state only reinforces their claims. The countries who support the Palestinians have little financial or material gain in the creation of a Palestinian state, rather for them, it is simply a matter of principal. We, in the US, during this time of financial troubles, should remember the extent our forefathers were willing to go on the basis of principal, and the financial consequences of alienating our Arab allies in the Middle East once again. Influential Saudi diplomats have said relations with the U.S. would suffer if Washington vetoed a Security Council resolution. We could hardly afford another Oil embargo, yet, it is not out of the question. China would be happy to ensure any Arab states participating would suffer few financial effects. This could easily trigger the financial collapse, the brink of which we have teetering for some time now.

I must ask, for what? Israel has repeatedly repudiated our efforts to broker reasonable solutions to the conflict, and has even reneged on agreements they agreed to in past negotiations. What have they done for the U.S. beyond making us a target for Arab and Muslim extremists? The thing about extremists is they only have a following when there is an issue which strikes to the heart of a group of people. The fact that much of the Arab world feels their brothers are being subjected to a modern ghetto designed to perform a gradual ethnic cleansing, is exactly the issue they are using. So I ask, why do we want to further the impression we support that action?

I know many people are concerned about supporting Israel due to their interpretation of the Bible. Well, my understanding is that almost all religions agree that we should treat all fellow men with peace and respect. I also don't believe God is in a hurry. I think the issue of Jerusalem should be removed from the peace process. The United Nations should make a 2 mile circle from the center of the Temple mount /Al-Asque mosque, and it should become a United Nations protected area for 100 years, at which point it's disposition would be negotiated by the exiting parties at that time. To ensure it's protection, the UN General Assembly should be moved within this protected zone, thus giving the entire world a stake in the security of the zone. The faithful of all religions could worship freely and the status quo could be preserved until cooler heads prevail. I understand that Israel feels that the temple mount is theirs and the mosque there must be removed to build the third temple and allow the arrival of their messiah, but that action is one which will tear the world apart, and one which, if they truly trust in their God, will happen when the time is right. The destruction of the third holiest site in Islam will not create a peaceful atmosphere for the creation of the third temple at this time. I do not believe that even the support of the United States could protect Israel from the wrath of the entire Muslim world, the majority of which lives outside the Middle Easy and has stayed out of the Arab-Israeli conflict altogether.

The facts in this case are really quite simple. The United States is dependent upon the Arab states for their energy resources. Israel only takes from the U.S. and thumbs their noses at us whenever they wish. Israel is a financial burden upon the U.S. economy, in exchange for which we only get tension with our other Middle Eastern allies. Vetoing a Palestinian effort at statehood before the UN will only create deeper rifts in the international community and serve as a recruiting poster for extremists to continue their destructive onslaught against the United States. Why not give peace a chance? What do we have to lose? I can understand that the US doesn't want to go against Israel, but I am of the firm opinion that we need to sit this one out and go with the will of the world.

As a past military officer, I am quite familiar with the writings of Sun Tzu. Most appropriate here is the statement that no nation has ever prospered during times of extended warfare. We are violating this principal and our enemies are enjoying watching our economy decline as they grow their own. We need to wake up and realize that it's time we embrace the Arab Spring and make friends where we once had enemies. If you want to create some jobs, send Halliburton et. al. to Libya to make some contracts with the new government. We have the expertise in rebuilding in the Middle East. Why not get paid for it this time and make some new friends in the process. It's obvious they are in favor that idea, and they already have billions at their disposal to spend.

One act, the vetoing of a Palestinian bid for statehood, will either build bridges, or burn them for the US. The financial and political consequences are clear. Should we pursue this action, it will only make it more clear to me, my friends and my family that our Government is no longer for the people, rather for the large amounts of special interest money that Israel pumps into the system every election. The funny thing is how much of that money came from the US taxpayers in the first place. Actually, to the millions of Americans facing major cuts in their benefits and pay, it's not very funny at all. And thanks to the Internet. They see the money trail like never before.

The idea of a Palestinian state should be uncontroversial. The United States supports the notion, as does the UK. Indeed, in his 2009 Cairo speech, President Barack Obama insisted: "Israelis must acknowledge that just as Israel's right to exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine's."
Yet Obama appears determined to veto the move towards Palestinian statehood, while Britain has hinted it is likely to abstain in a Security Council vote.

fellow Americans,

01. There are 22 Arab nations (almost all of them are ruled by dictators).

02. So far, three dictators have been removed: Ben Ali of Tunisia, Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, and Gadhafi of Libya.

03. Lebanon is a "democracy" in the sense that the elections are held fairly to elect a President (Christian), Prime Minister (Sunni Muslim), and a Speaker of Parliament (Shiaa Muslim). So, Lebanon is not as bad as the rest of the other Arab countries.

04. The current revolutions in Syria and Yemen are clearly headed towards the removal of the two dictators: Assad of Syria and Saleh of Yemen.05. Bahrain is a "Thorn in the butt of the USA". It's very clear that the "Khalifa regime/kingdom" has lost legitimacy to govern Bahrain (Quick Test of Legitimacy = a dictator (King Khalifa) uses his military against his own people).06. Since the USA has a major navy base (Fifth Fleet) in Bahrain (to protect OIL, commercial ships, keep an eye on Iran and Israel, etc...), it's very clear that the United Nations will not have any role in helping the Bahrain people to get rid of the Khalifa dictatorship. What this means is that the people of Bahrain will need to count on themselves through non-stop popular revolutions to shake the regime from power.07. Saudi Arabia: this is the true model of democracy in the Middle-East (I was joking!). The Al-Saud dictatorship uses money and OIL to stay in power. When the Saudi people start to demonstrate in the streets, the Saudi dictatorship gives (meaning bribe the people) the people a few extra thousand dollars to keep them quite (of course the tanks and police are always ready to keep people in line).08. The USA has major OIL interests in Saudi Arabia. In fact, the stability of OPEC is guaranteed by the Saudi dictatorship. It's OPEC that keeps the price of producing and shipping a loaf of bread reasonable and stable (worldwide). The Saudi dictatorship depends on the support of the USA military to stay in power.09. The Saudi dictatorship sent its military power to help the Bahrain dictatorship. As expected, the United Nations did nothing.10. The State of Palestine: well, on Sept-20-2011 the Palestinians are expected to go to the United Nations to formally ask the UN members to admit The State of Palestine as a new member. Israel is "mad" and the USA is "expected" to veto the Palestinian request.11. I understand why Israel is mad: Israel loves the current situation with its cheap and well controlled occupation as it is. ......a. Fatah is babysitting the "Eastern side" Palestinians in the West Bank......b. Hamas is babysitting the "Western side" Palestinians in Gaza.......c. The United Nations is financing the Palestinian refugees in many countries around the world.......d. The USA (through the powerful AIPAC lobby) is making sure that the United Nation Resolutions against Israel are vetoed or "UN-implemented" to keep the status quo unchanged.......e. While everyone is helping Israel continue a "peaceful and cheap occupation of Palestine", the Illegal Settlement activities are going on non-stop in order to "change the facts on the ground" (that's until INTIFADA 3.0 starts)12. So, it will be very interesting on Sept-20-2011 when over 130 countries in the world vote to admit Palestine as a state and the USA will be put in a position to "veto" the will of the world.13. Let's assume that the USA veto accepting The State of Palestine as a UN member. What happens when the Palestinian people (who have been very peaceful and quiet for the last 20 years waiting for results of the "Dead Peace Process") decide to start INTIFADA 3.0?14. Well, INTIFADA 3.0 means Israel uses F-16's and "drones" to kill thousands of civilians under occupation.15. What this means is that the world will be dealing with more violence in the Middle-East, more attempts to use the United Nations to intervene will not be successful due to USA vetoes, etc..., and the USA and Israeli media will try to portray the Palestinians as terrorists and the Israelis as victims.16. I am pretty sure that if the Palestinians decide to take the route of a non-stop INTIFADA 3.0, the fight will be taken to Facebook, Google, YouTube, Al-Jazeera TV, Twitter, etc...and these modern technologies, will play a major role in influencing the world opinion against the state of Israel and even pressure the USA to change its Middle-East policy.17. For starters, let's hope that the USA budget cuts for Defense will include cutting 3 Billion dollars aid to Israel and 2 billion dollars aid to Egypt. I believe with 5 Billion dollars, America can hire back many of those laid-off teachers.Peace, Love, and Freedom to ALL

Robert M. Gates, the now-retired secretary of defense, who seemed most upset with Netanyahu. In a meeting of the National Security Council Principals Committee held not long before his retirement this summer, Gates coldly laid out the many steps the administration has taken to guarantee Israel’s security -- access to top- quality weapons, assistance developing missile-defense systems, high-level intelligence sharing -- and then stated bluntly that the U.S. has received nothing in return, particularly with regard to the peace process.

Hamas: A Pale Image of the Jewish Irgun And Lehi Gangs

By Donald Neff

A photograph dated 1947 shows a poster issued by British police forces seeking 18 wanted Jewish terrorists from the Irgun Zvai Leumi and Stern Gang. Pictured at top left is Irgun commander and future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin (AFP Photo).

AS EASY as it is to dismiss clichés as banal and misleading, the troubling problem is that they often cloak an essential truth. Scoffs and derision often greet the cliché that “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.” Yet freedom fighters is exactly how Israelis view the early Zionists who fought in 1947 for the establishment of Israel—and how Palestinians now consider their fighters resisting Israeli occupation.

The reality is that when faced with a superior military force, such as Britain possessed in 1947 and Israel does today against the Palestinians, terror is the underdog’s only viable weapon. Once a state has been established and legitimized, however, as in the cases of Israel and South Africa, the former “terrorists” tend to gain a veil of legitimacy as well. But legitimacy is now being denied Hamas. Even though Palestinians elected a Hamas-led government in free and fair elections, Israel denies it legitimacy on the grounds that Hamas is a terrorist organization.

Sixty years ago, however, at the time of the British Mandate, it was Jews in Palestine who mainly waged terrorism against the Palestinians. As Jewish leader David Ben-Gurion recorded in his personal history of Israel: “From 1946 to 1947 there were scarcely any Arab attacks on the Yishuv [the Jewish community in Palestine].”

The same could not be said for the Zionists. Jewish terrorists waged an intense and bloody campaign against the Palestinians, British, and even some Jews who opposed them leading up to the establishment of Israel.

The two major Jewish terror organizations in pre-independence Palestine were the Irgun Zvai Leumi—National Military Organization, NMO, also known by the Hebrew letters Etzel—founded in 1937, and the Lohamei Herut Israel, Fighters for the Freedom of Israel, Lehi in the Hebrew acronym, also known as the Stern Gang after its leader Avraham Stern, known as Yair, founded in 1940.

The Irgun was led by Menachem Begin, the future Israeli prime minister who was a leading proponent of Revisionist Zionism, the militant branch of Zionism pioneered by Vladimir Zeev Jabotinsky, which openly despised the Arabs and sought restoration of what it called Eretz Yisrael, the ancient land of Israel. By this was meant “both sides of the Jordan,” the Irgun slogan meaning all of Palestine and Jordan was the rightful home of the Jews.

Another belief of Begin’s was that of the “fighting Jew,” a romanticized idea expressed in Jabotinsky’s old Betar movement song of “we shall create, with sweat and blood, a race of men, strong, brave and cruel.” Israeli scholar Avishai Margalit translated the verse as “proud, generous and cruel,” adding: “Many are still waiting for the generous part to emerge.”

The Irgun was the dominant Jewish terrorist organization, both in size and the number and frequency of its attacks. Its most spectacular feat up to this time had been the July 22, 1946 blowing up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, with the killing of 91 people—41 Arabs, 28 British and 17 Jews. Mainstream Zionists despised Begin and his Revisionists, although there was cooperation between the two on military matters. Ben-Gurion, the leader of mainstream Zionism, fought throughout his premiership with Begin.

The other major Jewish terrorist group, Lehi, was more extremist than the Irgun, claiming all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates as belonging to the Jews. When Jabotinsky declared a cease-fire in the fight against Britain and its mandate troops in Palestine during World War II, Stern broke with him and founded Lehi. Stern sought alliance with the Nazis, both because they shared an enemy in Britain and because Lehi shared Hitler’s totalitarian ideology. During the war Sternists openly celebrated Nazi victories on the battlefield.

An infamous document called the “Ankara Document” because it was found in the German Embassy in Ankara after the war, detailed Avraham Stern’s ideas “concerning the solution of the Jewish question in Europe.” It was dated Jan. 11, 1941. At the time, Stern was still a member of the Irgun, which he called by its initials, NMO. Wrote Stern: “The evacuation of the Jewish masses from Europe is a precondition for solving the Jewish question; but this can only be made possible and complete through the settlement of these masses in the home of the Jewish People, Palestine, and through the establishment of a Jewish state in its historical boundaries....The NMO...is well acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities toward Zionist activity inside Germany and toward Zionist emigration plans....The NMO is closely related to the totalitarian movements in Europe in its ideology and structure.”

In the Partition period, Irgun had around 2,000 men, while Lehi had about 800. Though the memberships were comparatively small, the damage these two groups caused in inflaming animosity between Arab and Jew was considerable. When Stern was killed by British police in 1942, leadership of Lehi was shared; among the leaders were Nathan Yalin-Mor, one of the eventual killers of Count Bernadotte, and Yitzhak Shamir, another future prime minister of Israel.

Arab terrorists carried out some major operations as well, including the bombing of the Jewish Agency and the Palestine Post. But in contrast to Jewish violence, it was unorganized and episodic. As historian Michael C. Hudson noted: “Organized Jewish violence against the British and Arabs (exemplified by the Irgun’s bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946), however, was far more systematic and successful than that of the Palestinians, and the latter were unable to play a significant role in the final years of the Mandate.”

The Jewish Agency, as the official representative of the Jewish community, repeatedly denied any responsibility for the acts of the Irgun and Lehi, maintaining they were underground terrorist groups operating outside the law. However, there was close cooperation among Irgun, Lehi and the Haganah underground army under an agreement called the Hebrew Resistance Movement and aimed specifically against the British Mandatory government. It went into force in the fall of 1945, when “Irgun and Lehi accepted Haganah discipline in the conduct of all armed operations,” in the words of historian Noah Lucas.

By December 1947, British High Commissioner Alan Cunningham reported to London: “...the Haganah and the dissident groups are now working so closely together that the Agency’s claim that they cannot control the dissidents is inadmissible.”

Donald Neff is the author of the Warriors trilogy, Fallen Pillars: U.S. Policy towards Palestine
and Israel,

Well, one could intelligently argue the same for the returning Jews of the diaspora too. Were they Israeli's at the time they staked claim ? The British mandate was a hodge podge of what remained of the Ottoman Empire post WWI . The term "Zionist" could just as easily describe the nationalist mind set amongst the Jews of that time too. So to now argue that what was good for the Jews at the time is not so for Palestinians seems patently unfair. The old Hashemite KIngdom did not become Trans Jordan until 1921 and was only recognized by the League of Nations as the Emirate of Transjordan in 1922. So it's not like there had been a long history on which to base this argument on as the current " State" was only admitted to the UN in 1946 and is currently listed as the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. To claim that Jordan should now absorb the Palestinians who yearn for their own country similar in many respects to the wishes that the Zionists had is disingenuous at best and at worst absolves Israel of any and all responsibilities called for by the UN. It is an underhanded argument that would result in Israel washing their dirty hands of the whole issue. Ironic too that it was groups like Z'vai Leumi, The Stern Gang , Hagana, Lehi, et al. ,that hastened the demise of Transjordan and now righties in Israel wax historical when it suits their immediate need.

Thomas Jefferson
"Entangling alliances with know one."
We need to dump this apartheid state Israel.

Stealing Palestinian land building illegal settlements building walls to imprison Palestinians blockading Gaza using Phosphorus munition and depleted uranium. Blockading Gaza so no humanitarian food get in killing people on a flotilla = Apartheid state.

So, the Palestinians (which ones) say they are tired of diplomacy and now want to attempt to get the UN to create a Palestinian state by force, force being through legal means, diplomatic strongarm tactics or perhaps even outright military intervention. Yes, I'm aware the military aspect is highly unlikely...but it certainly cannot be completely ruled out.

Unfortunately, nowhere have I seen any answers given for several major issues regarding this potential new state.

First off, what will happen to Hamas? Hamas controls Gaza and have not exactly been brought to heel by the "elected government" of the Palestinians. Also, let's consider the fact that Hamas doesn't just want a free Palestine and an end of any interference by Israel. Hamas wants to wipe out Israel. They frequently remind the world of that, so it obviously isn't a matter of opinion.

So, if Palestine DOES become a free nation, how exactly does the Palestinian government plan on keeping Hamas from continuing its attacks on Israel? If there's anyone out there that thinks Hamas will just suddenly give up attacking Israel just because Palestine becomes a free country...well I've got a bridge to sell you real cheap.

Also, exactly what amount of land will make up Palestine? Where exactly will the borders be drawn? What will happen to all of the Israelis in the settlements? What options will be given to them, as to whether they will be forcibly moved or given the option to be considered legal residents of Palestine?

Some would say that forcibly evicting them would be justified since Israel did it to many Palestinians. My response to such idiotic thinking is real simple. It's called 2 wrongs don't make a right and will only continue to increase the cycle of hatred and violence.

There are no easy answers to this situation and considering how often the UN has screwed things up over the decades...I am not hopeful that they'll get this one right either.

moenyc,

Would you please stop spamming. We get it that you hate Israel. Go spew your hatred elsewhere please.

Actually Hamas is the elected representatives of Palestine so why would Abbas even be representing them? Abbas has no power which explains his exile to the West Bank after Hamas started a battle against the Abbas faction killing hundreds of them.

download or stream this MP3

A first hand account of Israel Palestine from a regular American not a lying politician or a corporate media.

http://iamthewitness.com/audio/Jenifer.Dixon/TFC.2008.02.08.Fri.Dixon.mp3

I think it is time for the United States to withdraw from the United Nations. If we did then that defunct organization would fold like a house of cards in a breeze. It does nothing to settle conflicts around the world only creates them. It uses the United States as its own personal police force where ever it decides. With no UN you would start to see more peace around the world as they would not try to start a war with the U.S. because they would not be fighting a country who is bound by some horse dung treaty and rules of engagement.

hadenough,

Why would anyone who is unbiased believe this "firsthand account" from a "regular American" when the soundbite is on a website that is blatantly hateful towards Israel? Not to mention the fact that the website attempts to claim that 9/11 was "A Zionist Job"????

Sorry, but websites like that have ZERO credibility.

Show us a website that attempts to portray BOTH SIDES fairly and without bias. Good luck finding one.

@Derek-381097

douchebagsayswhat? Learn how to spell douchebag, douchebag.

Here's a neat contrast in Abbas' comments in the last TWO DAYS about Israel:

From the MSN article, "I say to the Israelis, come to peace,'' Abbas said in the text of remarks prepared for the U.N. General Assembly.

From another article: "Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said Friday he is adamant about not recognizing Israel as the Jewish state. "They talk to us about the Jewish state, but I respond to them with a final answer: We shall not recognize a Jewish state," Abbas said in a meeting with some 200 senior representatives of the Palestinians community in the US, shortly before taking the podium and delivering a speech at the United Nations General Assembly. "

I wonder if we are supposed to interpret the first Abbas statement (to the UN today) as "Just stop kicking while I push the pillow down on your face. Come to peace."

I guess the President's meetings didn't work out.

moenyc - I agree with many of your remarks, but disagree on a few. The big picture as I see it involves "Palestine" as a sovereign nation stirring up trouble from their new state. If Israel responds with force, it is an act of war on a sovereign nation. The Arab lands will respond in one accord to defend 'poor little Palestine', and the West will respond in defense of Israel. Blood and tears are all I see from this mess. And the forementioned ultimate climactic clash is a near certainty.

I'm not fear-mongering, I am a realist.

Also, how can "Palestine" be a nation (in direct opposition to Zion) whose land is split on 2 sides of Israel. If they are a sovereign state, the weapons that have been captured by Israel as illegal contraband meant for Gaza will now march right in, unimpeded. Israel will have an equipped enemy with a strong and solid foothold on 2 fronts. Add to that the support "Palestine" will have from every Arab in the region as they wage war with their sworn enemy.

Time to end the drama and face reality. Palestine recognized as a sovereign state will mean war and you can bet your ass we will not sit it out! A 600 lb. gorilla in the room is whether or not Russia and China will sit back without taking sides. They both have MUCH to loose if the Arab nations are pounded by the West! Will they just let the USA beat the crap out of their interests???

It is all nice and politically correct to say they should have their own state, but be prepared for the consequences. NO ONE can bury their heads in the sand and expect any good to come from this. A million people will die. Bet on it!

Mr. President: Sir, abstain from voting and withdraw your commitment to veto the Palestinian state. Netanyahu is involving Israel in Perry's campaign while you are busy at the UN and is going on Meet the Press. It appears that he is running for President of the US and Perry is hoping for a VP spot. Sir, you may lose the Presidency, but you will be following your beliefs and that is more important in history than being a puppet to any country. Palestinians are burning our flag. Israel is interfering in our political system. Stop aid to both countries and abstain. Let them work it out. A bold step for sure, and one that will cost you, but also one that will allow you to look in the mirror each morning for the rest of your life, knowing that you serve no Master. Do the right thing. Bring our troops home. Get ready. Iran is goading us into war and Pakistan will be their ally. Ready our troops for the terrible war that is coming.

Anyone who thinks the Palestinians will be satisfied with just the West Bank and Gaza Strip is delusional. It's just like the old saying "if you give a mouse a piece of cheese he's going to want a cracker as well." The Palestinians will not be satisfied until the whole of Israel is in Muslim hands, and gaining independence over the West Bank and Gaza Strip is merely a stepping stone - a means to that end.

As for our friend Mahmoud Abbas, if Palestine becomes independent he and Fatah won't last 6 months before they're overthrown by Hamas - an Islamic Fundamentalist party with the support of the majority of the Palestinian people. If (when) Hamas takes power of independent Palestine, then money and weapons from Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia and China will start streaming in and Palestine will declare war on Israel. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria and possibly Egypt will join the war on the Muslim side, whilst no Israeli "ally" will join the war on Israel's behalf. If you think the rest of the world will come to the aid of a bunch of Jews with no oil, think again! Israel will put up a good fight, but will be outmanned and outarmed and will fall to the Muslims.

Then, once Israel is in Muslim hands, THE GENOCIDE WILL BEGIN. If Israel falls into Muslim hands, THERE WILL BE GENOCIDE, GUARANTEED!! The extermination of all non-Muslims from within what was once Israel will become Priority #1. The killings won't be prolonged and systematic like the Holocaust, but will instead be swift, widespread and shockingly brutal, like Armenia or Rwanda. Again, the rest of the world won't rush to the defence of a bunch of Jews with no oil, so the international community will sit there and fiddle whilst the Holy Land burns and millions of Jews and Christians are slaughtered in the name of Muslim vengeance.

moenyc, thank you for the excellent historical background you provided on Palestine, the Middle East, and the plight of the Palestinian people. I tried to offer similar information in the past, not to the extent or detail you offered, to no avail.

I have come to the conclusion that the opinions voiced by those who not only object to the creation of a Palestinian state and the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian impasse, but who also deny the Palestinians their heritage and their right to exist as a sovereign nation, are not influenced by facts or fairness, but by overt cultural hatred reminiscent of what influenced some of the worst atrocities in the history of humanity. We are, clearly, on the wrong side of history on this one and it is disappointing, although not surprising, to see President Obama emulate the position taken by his predecessors which, contrary to our claims and protestations, is designed to maintain the status quo regardless of what the rest of the world thinks.

Hey, guess you forgot...the USA is broke...we can't get into another war..Israel has the big bomb..let them fend for themselves. Big mouth Nitwitnyahoo has time and again told the USA to but out or don't mix in...to get lost. Well now that his big mouth has gotten his people into a dangerous situation he's begging the USA for assistance. Obama should tell him to f off.

Dominick - In your reasonable, most sincere opinion, will "Palestine" (made up of 2 areas, Gaza and the West Bank) leave Israel alone after being granted sovereign statehood?

What will the future hold for Israel with their avowed ENEMY allowed free trade with the balance of Arab lands? What will be in the future if the Turkish, Syrian, and Iranian shipments of arms cannot be stopped by Israel any longer?

Do you really think the rest of the world is to dumb to see what the future holds?

Comparison:

It's like eating "chips". "You just can't eat one"--

the Palestinians demands are going to get even greater if they should get a State thru the UN, without working with Israel, to maintain a permanent Peace. How will they coordinate their Statehood thru all the violent countries in the ME? Will they be the same--getting rid of HAMAS as their underling puppet Government? How about gang-ups of Terrorists?

Arafat could not keep them under control.

The entire Middle East/N. Africa has to learn to back off Western Society, stop the Terrorist Camps, stop the Terrorists from reacting with bombs/children, and stop all barbaric violence that has led to hundreds of thousands of deaths, including their own people found executed in mass graves.

This will be a change of biological thinking for them. It has been ingrained in them by the Koran, birth rights; taken literally.

Can they find a Peaceful Koran? with teachings of love, hope, and kindness to humankind? All people who are of different cultures. Can they accept that?

This a Job Assignment for them, before taking on Statehood..

Dominick,

I have come to the conclusion that the opinions voiced by those who not only object to the creation of a Palestinian state and the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian impasse, but who also deny the Palestinians their heritage and their right to exist as a sovereign nation, are not influenced by facts or fairness, but by overt cultural hatred reminiscent of what influenced some of the worst atrocities in the history of humanity.

So, according to you, those of us who have serious questions regarding the creation of a Palestinian free state are not interested in being fair. We're just a bunch of racists, is that it?

What an ignorant, hateful thing to say.

So, since it would appear that you are totally on the side of the Palestinians, would you say it is unfair if someone decided to characterize you as an obvious anti-Semite, regardless of whether or not they know you personally? Would that be fair?

I always laugh at people like you, regardless of which side of an issue you're on. You make groundless comments that insult people who don't automatically agree with you. You're too busy stroking your own ego and attempting to make yourself look so self-righteous that you don't even realize how pathetic it really makes you look.

You are obviously willing to acknowledge Israel's failures, misdeeds, atrocities, etc....but are you as willing to acknowledge the same in regards to the Palestinians, WITHOUT trying to excuse them or make some lame apology like "they had no other options but violence" or some other ridiculous bs?

We'll see.

BOTH sides have done unforgiveable things. BOTH sides are responsible for the level of hate and violence that seems to be an everyday thing over there. BOTH sides don't appear to have any real desire for peace.

How typically human of them.

moenyc...

Very informative presentation of some of the "less known" facts concerning the history of the Israel nation/Palestinian nation conflict. Thank you. Additionally, I would add that many Israelis and Palestinians lived together peacefully in the disputed land before the time of WWII. Also, the biblical literal interpretations that you refer to as cited justification of the policy of some (concerning the borders of the nation of Israel) are not necessarily all correct interpretations of the Word of God. Knowledgeable Biblical scholars would have much to say about this, beginning with the definition of the word "Israel", and when it is FIRST seen in the old testament scriptures of Genesis...and what "God's Chosen Israel" actually refers to. It should be noted that after God first bestowed the name of "Israel" on Jacob (at the time Jacob humbled himself before God), this same Jacob (now Israel) immediately went to his estranged brother whom he had cheated and been in conflict with,...and expressed remorse, a desire for peace between the brothers, and an offering of gifts. Just a thought for those who ponder God's Will.

Idaho Dragon says...

"Some would say that forcibly evicting them would be justified since Israel did it to many Palestinians. My response to such idiotic thinking is real simple. It's called 2 wrongs don't make a right and will only continue to increase the cycle of hatred and violence."

Could you please post your address? I'd like to come to your property and set a tent up in your backyard, so I may then have some land to claim, settle and build my house on.

That said, the threat of potential violence in response to a legal decree of international law...and more specifically what is considered right and just in a policy that holds all parties to the same laws and standards of conduct...would be considered a terrorist tactic, and not something to dictate just solutions. True that none should want or welcome war and bloodshed, however I do not believe we are to refrain from doing what is right and just, due to any spoken or perceived threats of possible resulting violence and bloodshed.

I find it ironic that all these people spewing history of "Palestine" fail to mention anything about Jordan, which is built on land designated for the Palestinians also.

I would bet if Jordan had an all Israeli population though and not Arab that the Palestinians would be wanting that land also.

Nublet:

You got that wrong---it was a meeting between Netanyahu and Obama recently--Obama definitely wants a Palestinian State and So does Israel, under the claim that the Palestinians will leave Israel alone, permanently. Where is the Peace Treaty agreed by both? Why hasn't it ever happened?---Who is the Stumbling block---Violence begets violence--Pls. read my comments #1.39.

Somehow promises are made by the Palestinians to keep the Peace, but then the Terrorist Group HAMAS who rules Palestine does not want Peace--they keep invading up to the doorsteps of inside Israel and cause Violent Havoc--Should Israel idly stand by for them?---Retaliation. Remember this word--Even the leader Abbas has fear he will be killed by them---they are running the show there.

Israel has given much of it's territory over to the Palestinians through the years., already; given their homes for Jews away (Settlements)---and they are never satisfied. They blew them up---why would the residents of Palestine blow up housing they could be living in?---now they have nothing--The people of Pales. want from their Government some decent living standards, and they are not getting a piece of dirt from them---why deny citizens of an area or Country their own rights, and a right not to have to live in squalor. Where are the Universities in Palestine? What is their education system there for the regular people. Where do they get their food--eating dirt sometimes to survive--it's always been like that for thousands of years--no change for improvement of living conditions--

There will be no peace unless Palestine backs off--of course Netanyahu is looking after his own citizens---they would all be dead if Palestine was allowed to come in there, blow everything and everyone up--What would they do with with rtubble after the violence.

Obama favors the other Middle East Countries/N. Africa--it is loud and clear. For what reason, no one knows--maybe--

Did you know Pres. Obama left Netanyahu in the White House after the important meeting alone recently, and went to a party?

Israel has had the rotten treatment by this Administration, all the while, when the US Government knows Israel is the key to Peace both in the ME, and the United States.

Get some logic!

BTW: Abbas would be killed if he doesn't do what HAMAS wants; he knows it---just like another Pakistan---Terrorists running the Middle East. Is that what you want?

Why was the State of Israel created since 1948 and the State of Palestine was left to rot on the vine even after the UN report?

Not only did they refuse the deal, Israel was attacked by Iraq and other Arab forces. They brought the lack of statehood on themselves.

Concernedone, when you speak for the rest of the world, you realize that most of the rest of the world is now sympathetic to Palestinians- not Israelis, right?

Ha ha....after all the garbage about the holocaust and intimidation of free nations, along with the statement that Osama was "framed" we get a request for Palatinian membership the next day??!!

THESE PEOPLE ARE A JOKE!! Just laugh him out of the room when it's time to vote and be done with it!

ChiCity, you realise that the "most" you are talking about are irrelevant to the conversation and the decision right?

KJR,

Could you please post your address? I'd like to come to your property and set a tent up in your backyard, so I may then have some land to claim, settle and build my house on.

Wow, what a totally unrelated comment to what I said.

So tell me something. What exactly do you have a problem with, regarding my statement that forcibly relocating the Israeli settlers is NOT a good idea? Do you just hate Israelis? Are you just rude and uncompassionate to begin with? Or maybe you just like the idea of people being forcefully removed from their homes and told to hit the road?

As if that would help the situation in any way, shape or form. The ignorance of people like you never fails to amaze and sadden me.

You guys argue over the finer points like which imaginary friends book is the right one and who has rights to what.

I'm just pissed that gas was *just* starting to come down... SOB!

ChiCity - Idiot. Who says I speak for "the rest of the world"? I speak MY opinions.

I am sympathetic to the Palestinian story, but also have a firm grasp on reality. This is not a peaceful solution, it a means to justify war and the elimination of Israel.

How can anyone deny that an armed, sovereign Palestine (who is the avowed friend of Iran and ENEMY of Israel - who said they will not rest until Zion is erased from the earth), will not raise up against Israel? Do you really think "Palestine" will rest without taking back ALL of Jerusalem? Give an honest assessment of the future of "Palestine" and come back with something that makes sense!

Blood and tears! If you can handle it, go for it! I am only one person who can sound their own horn. I speak for myself - not the rest of the world.

BTW... You DO understand the history of Jordan in regards to "Palestine", correct? You DO understand Arab nations BACKED the 2 state UN proposal that created Israel in the first place, correct? You DO understand Israel has intercepted many, many shipments of arms and heavy weaponry aboard ships bound for Gaza (shipped by other Arab nations), correct? What will happen when Israel can't stop the flow of these arms? WAR, FOOL!

And a separate post that needs told.....from Jimmy.....it's all history folks, this is a no-brainer!

Jimmy-656853

This is my reply to all this Palestinians this and Palestinians that Israel this and Israel that:

Yes, the Ottoman Empire encompassed the Middle East including the lands in dispute for 400 years until World War One.

The Balfour Declaration of 1917 established Palestine as a national home for the Jews managed by the British.

In November 1947, the United Nations voted in favor of the partition of Palestine, proposing the creation of a Jewish state, an Arab state, and a UN-administered Jerusalem.

The land called Palestine was divided by U.N. mandate in 1947 with Jordan for the Muslim/Arab population and Israel for the Jewish population. That was the two state solution.

On 15 May 1948 neighboring Arab states invaded and war broke out with the Muslim/Arab population and Jordan, Syria, Egypt. Israel won. Won the land, not stolen.

In 1967 Syria and Egypt gathered on the borders of Israel threating invasion and blocking the Suez Canal. Israel struck first, wiping out the air forces of all. In the ensuing 6 day war, pushed the combined enemies back. Egypt lost the Gaza and Sinai. Syria lost the Golan. Lost not stolen.

The territory known as the "West Bank" was originally part of the proposed Arab territories, but following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War this area was captured by Trans-Jordan (renamed Jordan in 1949). The name "West Bank" was proposed by the Jordanian authorities to describe the area west of Jordan River. The 1949 Armistice Agreements defined its interim boundary. From 1948 until 1967, the area was under Jordanian rule, and Jordan did not officially relinquish its claim to the area until 1988, ceding its territorial claims to the PLO and eventually stripping West Bank Palestinians of Jordanian citizenship. Jordan's claim was never formally recognized by the international community, with the exceptions of the United Kingdom and the Unites States. The West Bank was taken control of by Israel, during the Six-Day War in June, 1967.

In 1973 these forces again attacked Israel and lost.

Israel made peace with Egypt and gave back the Sinai.

Israel unilaterally gave Gaza back to the Muslim population there.

When did this stealing take place? These are the spoils of war!

Let the Palestinians go back to Jordan where they were supposed to go. But, no, the Jordanians don't want them. They didn't even want the West Bank.

I can't imagine why!

The reason that the US is declining today is directly related to "unconditional US support for Israel". Watch the Al-Qaeda manifesto videos. All they do is talk about this situation. Even James Fitzgerald, the FBI agent at the head of the 9/11 commission labeled "unconditional US support for Israel" as the primary motivation for Al-Qaeda attacking the US. Right now we are spending trillions of dollars chasing terrorists around the world and in the process bankrupting ourselves. You don't think that is not part of some grand strategy from Al-Qaeda? Of course it is. They don't want to negotiate with us because they know that its always going to lead back to the US taking Israel's side. So their only take is simple: The hasten of the bankruptcy and collapse of the US empire, simple and plain. It is then that the Muslim world can deal with Israel on a 1v1 basis. And guess what; we as a nation are bankrupting ourselves, and costing our kids futures over something that is inevitable. Pathetic America. l

moenyc

The reason that the US is declining today is directly related to "unconditional US support for Israel".

Good Grief....

The historical background was obviously well researched, moenyc. Thank you. There is no doubt that nations who always opposed us (Russia, China) will do so again, and will continue to do so as long as they have extraordinary financial and investment interests in the region, not to mention simply flexing their muscles vs. the USA. The region, of course, is on their side of the world. Call it "their backyard" if you must. I become disappointed, enraged, annoyed and frustrated whenever I hear of bombings and subsequent retaliation. Abbas, too, talks from both sides of his mouth--"come to peace" "destroy Israel." But then, apparently so have we based on previous comments and current ones regarding Palestinian statehood. Benjamin Netanyahu is a big part of the problem. To me, he is a militaristic hate-monger who would not compromise on any ground. Under him, Palestinians have been ripped from their homes, their homes bulldozed or confiscated, and transplanted Israelis were inserted in the area. I often wonder how long we would stand for that if it happened here. All people have a right to live in peace, have homes they can call their own without fear of confiscation. The continuing claims for more Palestinian territory and its confiscation trouble me. Prevention of transport of food to the territory is even worse. On the surface, Israel is considered an "ally," but in reality, Israel seems only to be ITS OWN ally.

Perhaps the UN should in fact grant statehood, but with the proviso that if attacks continue on Israel, then such statehood would be revoked and considered null and void. That may bring all member of the UN into agreement, and water down the power Hamas has in the region besides.

Idaho Dragon...

It was not my intent to offend you, and I am sorry if you took my comments that way. I do not take your offensive remarks to me seriously. (Concerning, "do you just hate Israelis?"...obviously not...I do not hate anyone...nor do I judge anyone based on their nationality, ethnicity, color, religion, etc. We are speaking about the political policy of a country and it's government leaders, and disagreement with that policy should not lead anyone to post accusations of hatred for a people). My point was that the country of Israel has refused to cease the expansion of new and continuing jewish settlements in designated Palestinian lands...and this continues to this day. Would it be right for this to continue until Israel then decides it is finished seizing land and declares borders that fit their political agenda...and use the "already jewish settlements" rationale to seize whatever land they desire in their proposed borders for a peace agreement? I am just saying that when this type of illegal action is deliberately being condoned (by Israel) and continued despite the objections of the international community and law, those resulting illegal settlements cannot be the basis for future borders. I do not want to see any more innocent people, Israelis or Palestinians, made to leave their homes, but when one is knowingly building a home on someone else's land, they cannot expect to legally claim that land and home. I think you completely understood my comment, but for some reason wanted to twist it...not sure why.

moenyc,

The reason that the US is declining today is directly related to "unconditional US support for Israel".

Back to spew more anti-Israel rhetoric and lies huh?

The decline of the US has nothing to do with Israel. Nothing. Our decline has FAR MORE to do with corporate greed, government incompetence (BOTH parties), lack of sound fiscal and energy policies and the list goes on. The idea that our support of Israel is responsible for our decline is nothing short of ludicrous.

Right now we are spending trillions of dollars chasing terrorists around the world and in the process bankrupting ourselves.

Ummmm no, actually we aren't. The "War on Terror" is only a small percentage of the government's yearly budget. To try and claim that it is "bankrupting" us is not even remotely true.

Thanks for the laugh though.

KJR,

My point was that the country of Israel has refused to cease the expansion of new and continuing jewish settlements in designated Palestinian lands...and this continues to this day

Then why didn't you say what you meant the first time, instead of posting a smart assed comment about wanting to pitch a tent in my yard?

You say the Israelis are building Jewish settlements in "designated Palestinian lands". Designated by whom? You say it is done illegally. Can you tell me on what you base that on? I am NOT attempting to be sarcastic here either. If the Israelis are violating international law, then what exactly does the law say in regards to the region?

I think you completely understood my comment, but for some reason wanted to twist it...not sure why.

Why exactly should I have understood your comment when you so obviously didn't understand mine? Perhaps you are the one who chose to twist what I said hmmmm? I was not condoning Israel's building illegal settlements, if that is in fact what they are doing.

I merely stated that forcibly removing Israelis from their homes due to a creation of a Palestinian free state would not help the situation. Do you honestly think it would help?

It's not a matter or right or wrong anymore, or a matter of who has the "more legitimate" claim. It's a matter of what exactly is going to FIX the situation...if it even can be at this point.

janson:

Hitler also took the homes the jews lived in and their posessions was it his to have because he wont it in the war? He took the land possesions homes and whatever because he suppsoedly won it in war , are you trying to say it was right?

The USA did the same to the Native Americans and Mejico. Plus stole labor from Africans.

Just put moenyc on ignore. Save yourself the trouble.

I found this Opinion to pretty much nail it on cnn.com, from a Palestinian nonetheless.

http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2011/09/22/zakaria-i-oppose-the-palestinian-un-bid-for-practical-reasons/?hpt=hp_bn9

interesting to view the map of the Middle East and see all the huge areas of empty land in the neighboring Arabic countries surrounding Israel; not one foot of any surrounding Arabic land is being provided to the Palestinians. It shows how much the Arab 'brothers' care for the Palestinians they are 'supporting'.

Then interesting to see map of Europe, Africa, Russia,China, there some empty lands no one is using, why not give part to the jews to create israel.

Palestine returned as a country along with Jerusalem as capital then eventually problem solved in the Middle East. Fact.

Idaho Dragon

A lot of what you have post is flat out worng but this most of all I can not let go .

Ummmm no, actually we aren't. The "War on Terror" is only a small percentage of the government's yearly budget

Sorry But No we are spending over a trillion a year now on so called "defence spending". It it wasn't for the excuse of terrorism we wouldn't be. The 600-700 billion offical number leaves out many things when you add up all such "defence spending" we come out over a trillion a year.

So called defence spending is bankrupting our USA. The statement that the war on terror is bankrupting our country is More true then many would like to admit.

Thomas, you forgot the Asians. BTW we bought slaves from the black African slave traders, I don't believe we stole them.

neoatg,

So, please enlighten me on what I've posted that is wrong. Don't just state it like it's a fact. Put up some proof to prove me wrong. Put up or shut up pal.

You say we're spending over a trillion dollars a year on defense spending. Prove it. According to the federal government's budget listings, defense spending is less than a trillion dollars for budget fiscal year 2012. While Defense IS the highest, it is closely followed by Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid...so you could just easily make the argument that SS and Medicare are bankrupting the US.

That argument would also be ridiculous by the way.

And by the way, defense spending goes for a hell of a lot more than the War on Terror. You might want to keep that in mind. You are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe.

Just don't try and claim it as fact with NOTHING to back it up with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States

Note the chart "Budget brake down" the official number keeps much of what is spent on defence separate even though those program are Clearly part of defence spending.

When everything is added up the true number is gained which is over a trillion + A completely unknown Number in Classified spending.

Many try to pretend these cost are separate. They do so to ignore the true cost of so called "defence". Like why are nukes not part of said figure there is no reason other then to make the DOD spending look less then it truly is.

The big number kept off the books is the intrest we have to pay every year on the debt created by said defence spending. Even though that's is clearly part of said Budget its again kept off books so people can pretend we spend less then we truely do.

So the Palestinians get UN membership before there's more negotiations and a peace agreement, what's the big deal? Why is Europe and the US so concerned about first reaching a peace agreement before the Palestinians get their UN membership.

I tell you why, because Israelis leaders fear that once the Palestinians became a UN member they'll finally be able to file war crime charges against a whole bunch of Israelis leaders.

Israel can surely return the favor and do the same with Palestinians, in particular Hamas members, but the number of Israeli defendants will be much higher and have to account for a much higher number of deaths and destruction than any Palestinian will.

Abbas will not be swayed by either Israel or Hamas. He has more integrity than the entire US Congress put together because of his willingness to see his own countrymen be tried as war criminals in order to achieve a bigger justice, unlike members of the US Congress who're so hard trying to protect those that contribute campaign money to them even if the contributors are guilty of murder.

Idaho Dragon says...

KJR,(says...)

My point was that the country of Israel has refused to cease the expansion of new and continuing jewish settlements in designated Palestinian lands...and this continues to this day

(Idaho Dragon).... Then why didn't you say what you meant the first time, instead of posting a smart assed comment about wanting to pitch a tent in my yard?

You say the Israelis are building Jewish settlements in "designated Palestinian lands". Designated by whom? You say it is done illegally. Can you tell me on what you base that on? I am NOT attempting to be sarcastic here either. If the Israelis are violating international law, then what exactly does the law say in regards to the region?

(KJR says)... I think you completely understood my comment, but for some reason wanted to twist it...not sure why.

(Idaho Dragon)... Why exactly should I have understood your comment when you so obviously didn't understand mine? Perhaps you are the one who chose to twist what I said hmmmm? I was not condoning Israel's building illegal settlements, if that is in fact what they are doing.

I merely stated that forcibly removing Israelis from their homes due to a creation of a Palestinian free state would not help the situation. Do you honestly think it would help?

It's not a matter or right or wrong anymore, or a matter of who has the "more legitimate" claim. It's a matter of what exactly is going to FIX the situation...if it even can be at this point.

Don't worry Idaho Dragon...as soon as I and some of my friends/relatives have finished building our homes on your property, we will be happy to negotiate for "fair" land borders with you...because as you said, it isn't a matter of right and wrong....rather, as you said, "forcibly removing (us) from (our) homes...would not help the situation."

agressive behavior and bully masks? you are referring to israel right?

Lobbing thousands of rockets at civilians and then trying to make Israel out to be bullies is comic and VERY STUPID!!

incumb- the Palestinians have a very nice vest waiting for you to try on before you visit Israel. P.S. don't play with the wires

It is not Israel's land to give. Israel is illegally occupying the land, according to the USA and the UN.

oh hi jason... i knew i couldnt get through these comments without seeing something anti-semetic from you. oh behalf of israelis, shabbat shalom to you.

f16 vs home made rockets...... hmmmmm that sounds fair....

Stealing Palestinian land building illegal settlements building walls to imprison Palestinians blockading Gaza using Phosphorus munition and depleted uranium. Blockading Gaza so no humanitarian food get in killing people on a flotilla = Apartheid state.

dave294

f16 vs home made rockets...... hmmmmm that sounds fair....

The reality is far more complex than that simple sound-bite meme

The S'derot Calculus

The Israeli town of Sderot lies less than a mile from the Gaza Strip. Since the beginning of the intifada seven years ago, it has borne the brunt of some 2,500 Kassam rockets fired from Gaza by Palestinian terrorists. Only about a dozen of these Kassams have proved lethal, though earlier this month brothers Osher and Rami Twito were seriously injured by one as they walked down a Sderot street on a Saturday evening. Eight-year-old Osher lost a leg.

It is no stretch to say that life in Sderot has become unendurable. Palestinians and their chorus of supporters -- including the 118 countries of the so-called Non-Aligned Movement, much of Europe, and the panoply of international aid organizations from the World Bank to the United Nations -- typically reply that life in the Gaza Strip is also unendurable, and that Palestinian casualties greatly exceed Israeli ones. But this argument is fatuous: Conditions in Gaza, in so far as they are shaped by Israel, are a function of conditions in Sderot. No Palestinian Kassams (or other forms of terrorism), no Israeli "siege."

The more vexing question, both morally and strategically, is what Israel ought to do about Gaza. The standard answer is that Israel's response to the Kassams ought to be "proportionate." What does that mean? Does the "proportion" apply to the intentionof those firing the Kassams -- to wit, indiscriminate terror against civilian populations? In that case, a "proportionate" Israeli response would involve, perhaps, firing 2,500 artillery shells at random against civilian targets in Gaza. Or should proportion apply to the effectsof the Kassams -- an exquisitely calibrated, eye-for-eye operation involving the killing of a dozen Palestinians and the deliberate maiming or traumatizing of several hundred more?

Surely this isn't what advocates of proportion have in mind. What they really mean is that Israel ought to respond with moderation. But the criteria for moderation are subjective. Should Israel pick off Hamas leaders who are ordering the rocket attacks? The European Parliament last week passed a resolution denouncing the practice of targeted assassinations. Should Israel adopt purely economic measures to punish Hamas for the Kassams? The same resolution denounced what it called Israel's "collective punishment" of Palestinians. Should Israel seek to dismantle the Kassams through limited military incursions? This, too, has the unpardonable effect of resulting in too many Palestinian casualties, which are said to be "disproportionate" to the number of Israelis injured by the Kassams.

By these lights, Israel's presumptive right to self-defense has no practical application as far as Gaza is concerned. Instead, Israel is counseled to allow goods to flow freely into the Strip, and to negotiate a cease-fire with Hamas.

But here another set of considerations intrudes. Hamas was elected democratically and by overwhelming margins in Gaza. It has never once honored a cease-fire with Israel. Following Israel's withdrawal of its soldiers and settlements from the Strip in 2005 there was a six-fold increasein the number of Kassam strikes on Israel.

Hamas has also made no effort to rewrite its 1988 charter, which calls for Israel's destruction. The charter is explicitly anti-Semitic: "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!" (Article Seven) "In order to face the usurpation of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad." (Article 15) And so on.

It would seem perverse for Israeli taxpayers, including residents of Sderot, to feed the mouth that bites them. It would seem equally perverse for Israel merely to bide its time for an especially unlucky day -- a Kassam hitting a busload of schoolchildren, for instance -- before striking hard at Gaza. But unless Israel is willing to accept the military, political and diplomatic burdens of occupying all or parts of Gaza indefinitely, the effects of a major military incursion could be relatively short-lived. Israel suffered many more casualties before it withdrew from the Strip than it has since.

Perhaps the answer is to wait for a technological fix and, in the meantime, hope for the best. Israel is at work on a missile-defense program called "Iron Dome" that may be effective against Kassams, though the system won't be in place for at least two years. It could also purchase land-based models of the Phalanx Close-In Weapons System, used by the U.S. to defend the Green Zone in Baghdad.

But technology addresses neither the Islamic fanaticism that animates Hamas nor the moral torpor of Western policy makers and commentators who, on balance, find more to blame in Israel's behavior than in Hamas's. Nor, too, would an Iron Dome or the Phalanx absolve the Israeli government from the necessity of punishing those who seek its destruction. Prudence is an important consideration of statesmanship, but self-respect is vital. And no self-respecting nation can allow the situation in Sderot to continue much longer, a point it is in every civilized country's interest to understand.

On March 9, 1916, Mexican revolutionary Pancho Villa attacked the border town of Columbus, N.M., killing 18 Americans. President Woodrow Wilson ordered Gen. John J. Pershing and 10,000 soldiers into Mexico for nearly a year to hunt Villa down, in what was explicitly called a "punitive expedition." Pershing never found Villa, making the effort something of a failure. Then again, Villa's raid would be the last significant foreign attack on continental U.S. soil for 85 years, six months and two days.

brett stevens WSJ Feb 27, 2008, pg. 18

simplistic sound bites don't cut it

Jason,

That is a disgusting comment, but for your answer what is the life span in the West Bank and Gaza, it is over 72 which is pretty good for people getting stuffed in ovens. Is the population there growing or shrinking, answer growing at 5% a year one of the highest growth rates in the world. On the West Bank their economy grew at almost 9% last year, not bad for a country. While things are not great in the West Bank do not believe everything you hear do some research and while you are investigating why not look at how the Palestinians are treated by their Muslim brothers in Lebanon because the West Bank is paradise compared to that

no igor, it really is quite that simple, the israelis keep complaining they are under attack, but dont they retaliate with disproportionate force? what about white phosphorus? it really is that simple, they are occupied and resisting

I support the posibility of Palestine becoming a member of the U.N. and the prospect of using this opportunity for peaceful negotiations.

To outright deny them this prospect would only reinforce the prejudice opinions of persecution that they have about us.

I say we cautiously step forward with our hand outstretched in this matter.

dave294,

No, it really isn't that simple. Only the ignorant and the naive believe it is. And what exactly is disproportionate force hmmmm? That's totally based on the belief of the individual. It's a perception, not a measureable quality.

j70141 in Colorado,

I agree that anything that advances peaceful negotiations is a good thing. My biggest concern though is that this process will not achieve that. It will degrade into political grandstanding, achieve something that neither side wants and basically just end up being nothing but a total goatscrew.

When neither side seems to be truly interested in peace...the outlook is never good.

Jason - I am not Jewish, nor do I live in Israel. You are full of crap. You have no idea of the larger implications of "Palestine" statehood on 2 fronts against their SWORN enemy in Zion.

Let's all drop the political friendliness and warm group hugs. This will lead to death, destruction, blood and tears. Americans will die, but not before thousands of Arabs and Israellis do first.

Peter Jacobs we are Native Americans in case you don't know we don't have to live on our reservation but can enjoy all the U. S. HAS TO OFFER.We have a chose

Jason, you are absolutely right. The Jewish people are good people but Netinyahoo is no different than Hitler.

Well, they don't want ALL the land...just the land next to theirs.

idaho, really? so shooting white phosphorus bombs at people is not disproportionate force when all they have is home made weapons??? interesting, thanks for clearing that up

This is just the beginning.

Now the trouble starts.

Palestinians are condemned if they resort to violence and they are condemned if they ask for political rights through peaceful means such as UN platform.

What are they supposed to do? Does the world want the cycle of violene to go on?

I believe in Israel's right to exist and prosper but palestinians have the same right too.

dave294,

Really? I wasn't aware that AK-47s, rockets and mortars were considered home-made weapons. Oh, wait. They aren't.

You referred to disproportionate force in a general sense, not a specific one. But whatever. Keep making your apologies for the atrocities committed by one side, while condemning the other. That's what most people do.

You're probably one of those people who think that the people on that flotilla that attempted to run the Israeli blockade got a "disproportionate" level of force used against them too.

I think both sides are at fault for many things. I don't think both sides are responsible for EVERYTHING that is said they do. Unfortunately, nothing will ever change because neither side will ever trust the other one. Nothing will ever change because there is too much hatred between them.

Nothing will ever change because they are typical human beings. All emotion and little to no brains.

Idaho, i actually agree with some of what you wrote, yes both sides are at fault as is the rest of the world.

today some settlers burned and uprooted trees in front of the ap, the israel army got there and blamed it on the pals throwing rocks, all while the settlers shot with their automatic weapons alongside the army. that is about as recent an example as you can get. yes i was talking in general, you were correct about that, but why cant these poor people have their country and live?

Seriously people....

I'm no doomsday nut but I have to say that all this bickering over this border and that border, Allah, God, Jesus, oil, water, food, and any other reason to hate your fellow man is outright RIDICULOUS...

5 billion years from now (if we make it that long) were all dead anyways... I'm a Christian and have my faith, but I still believe in the power of man as a species...

Why is it that we try to force others to believe in one god or another when we have a bigger problem to make people believe in... The Human race as a whole needs to wake up and realize that regardless who is right, were all pretty much toast if we keep using our natural resources and technological advancements to destroy each other rather than for the betterment and advancement of our species...

@jason-3996921

Um, care to explain how a whole country can be evil? Evil people sure, but evil country?

Israel was formed by agreements and mandates from British rule of the area. Go yell at them.

I'm an atheist and quick look at the content of my postings will confirm that. So no israeli or jew here. What you are proposing however is not only ridiculous, it's also staggeringly ignorant in it's understanding.

All right and wrong of creation aside. Israel is there. Has been my entire life and probably yours. What do you propose to do with the people? If you want to bring me to your side on this issue, you need to present a realistic and tenable answer. One that you would accept if we asked you to move.

Second, why aren't you whining about Berlin? or Georgia? or Tibet? North or South Korea? The Falklands? No, you don't really give a crap about any of those. Why is that? No evil jews perhaps?

This jew hating phenomenon is amazing. Is it because you believe the jews killed jesus? Is that why they are "evil"?

You do realize that israel was attacked by it's neighbors multiple times?

Why aren't you angry with Jordan or Syria? They too built borders based on "Palestinian" land nor will give them even the land that they currently sit on for generations.

Also, did you know that the term "Palestinian" doesn't refer to a specific race, culture, creed or tribe. It's basically a term now used to describe arabs that live in a particular place.

There was a time when both arabs and jews were both called "Palestinian" and that they even both worked in the british military as the palestine brigade.

Just like jews and arabs are both israeli, they are also both palestinian having lived in the area called Palestine.

Personally I think the religious crap is a bunch of nonsense and don't really care who believes that their imaginary friend is the right one, but there are real peoples lives you are talking about. Your words have real consequences for people on both sides.

I don't see how the Palestinian arabs pushing to bypass israel and strong arm them acceptance is going to bring about peace.

How about we return to the 1947 boundaries and start over again? East Jerusalem is as holy a place to the Palestinians as is West Jerusalem to the Jews. I have an old Life Magazine from the 1950s that I would be willing to share that clearly shows East Jerusalem as a Muslim holy city, and even points out Muslim holy sites on a map. How would the citizens of Israel respond if a major foreign military power seized West Jerusalem by overwhelming force and would not give it back for 44 years, making absurd claims to it and building settlements all around it?

This confrontation goes back thousands of years. It is nothing new. It certainly didn't start in 1947 when the British government, a colonial occupying power, sought on Christian religious grounds to provide the Jewish people with the ceremonial homeland that they had lost to the Roman Empire. No, this problem goes all the way back to when the Egyptian king let the Jews go and then chased them across the Red Sea. Was Palestine just vacant land back then? How would you feel if the British government had tried just as they were losing their grip on the American colonies to give half of the State of New Jersey back to the native Americans for the establishment of a thorn-in-the-side country supported by a foreign military power?

What the Palestinians want is their ancestral homeland back, which was stolen from them in 1947, then greater parts of it were stolen from them in 1967, including their ancestral holy city. And every day Israel becomes more entrenched as they continue to carve more and more armed residential subdivisions out of Palestinian land. While individual Israelis seek peace and are willing to give-up Palestinian Statehood, the official policy of Israel is one of no compromise, and certainly no return of East Jerusalem to Palestine, as existed from 1947 through 1967 and for thousands of years before that.

Peace is impossible with Netanyahu as President, Sharon too, both of whom would be like trying to make peace with Dick Cheney or worse. Israel doesn't like Hamas, but the Palestinian people voted for Hamas rather than for Fatah. Just think: Israel could have made peace with Fatah long ago, and could have spared the rest of the world this continuing idiocy! Peace is impossible as long as Israel occupies East Jerusalem, and it is impossible if settlement building on Palestinian land is not stopped, most likely with recent settlements torn-down and the land returned to Palestinian control.

Certainly Israel has been guilty of using wildly disproportionate force repeatedly, whether in air-dropping modern blockbusting munitions in response to the Palestinian rockets, which have less explosive force than a World War II hand grenade, or in the use of phosphorus munitions, which have been banned by international treaty for many years. They have repeatedly responded to children throwing stones by shooting a few to death. As an American, I am just sick and tired of our blind support for Israel, and the level of propaganda that is used to try to slant public opinion here too. All that the Palestinian people want is the same things that you and I want, and our tax money is being used to deny it to them.

Old Timer, sure go back to the 1947 borders and start over...then when neighboring countries attack like in 1967, Israel can kick their butts, again, and win that land back, again.

It's funny how so many people like to re-write or just plain forget history when it doesn't fit their ideology or political agenda.

nublet, to say netanyahu is the modern day day hitler is disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself (unless of course ur a neo nazi and thinks hitlers a hero). netanyahu is trying his best to engage in negotiations with the palestinians, i think his best line in the entire speech was "lets stop negotiating the negotiantions let start negotiating peace", i dont think hitler wouldve said that do you? if so u should go seek medical and psychological help because you may in fact suffer from severe brain issues

but dont they retaliate with disproportionate force

Yes. So what?

If you or anyone shows up in front of me with an open switch-blade, slash the air in front of me and tell me you want to kill me ...& Your friend RalphH shows up behind me with the same. Well if I had gun ( a real big one!)regretably I'd take those guys out and their little dog Toto too.

Ixor, Israel didn't elect a Prime Minister who was actually born in that country until 1996. It's the Israelis who're showing up, not the native Palestinians.

Why is Europe and the US so concerned about first reaching a peace agreement before the Palestinians get their UN membership?

I tell you why, because Israelis leaders fear that once the Palestinians became a UN member they'll finally be able to file war crime charges against a whole bunch of Israelis leaders.

Israel can surely return the favor and do the same with Palestinians, in particular Hamas members, but the number of Israeli defendants will be much higher and have to account for a much higher number of deaths and destruction than any Palestinian will.

Abbas will not be swayed by either Israel or Hamas. He has more integrity than the entire US Congress put together because of his willingness to see his own countrymen be tried as war criminals in order to achieve a bigger justice, unlike members of the US Congress who're so hard trying to protect those that contribute campaign money to them even if the contributors are guilty of murder.