Excellent way of completely changing the subject Tim

Congrats

Tim. Thanks for adding yet another anti semite rant that has nothing to do with the current topic.

Tim. Stay on the subject, I swear I'm tired of hearing Israel everytime I go somewhere , I go to a movie review and the first thing I see is "ISRAEL"...let it go. Also good job for Germany for bringing down the wall.

L. Moak,

We were at the height of the Cold War at that time. Had JFK done anything to try to stop the construction of that wall, it could have resulted in a nuclear war, in which case you would not be here now to complain about it.

You got it right on the nose. I did live on the other side of the border from 69 until the fall, and can't to this day not explain how it felt to live with it. My family was divided in both countries for many years.

Also, if you lived through it nobody thinks that Reagan was instrumental for it's removal. We had enough and went to the street. I'd like to keep the credit, I believe we earned it peacefully.

I was a 5-yr dependent stationed in Berlin when the wall went up. I recall a lot going on but had no idea of course that I was in the middle of ground zero for a nuclear war. Mr. Moak, there was little Kennedy or the United States could do. West Berlin was a small island of democracy in the middle of East Germany, surrounded by communist territory and East German and Russian troops. Allied forces in West Berlin were sorely outnumbered let alone surrounded and nuclear was the only way to win such a battle. And since nuclear had been used in a prior war just 16 years earlier, it was a very real possibility.

Reagan definitely deserves praise in helping bring down the wall. But at the time it went up, Kennedy deserves praise for showing up live in the middle of it all and establishing solidarity with West Berliners. And he beefed up our troops to help keep that island of freedom alive in that sea of communism!

It wasn't Kennedy or Reagan that brought down the wall. It was blue jeans and rock and roll and grocery stores without lines that those in the west had in abundance while those in the east were doing without. You can get good people down once in a while, but you can't keep them there forever. The people ended the wall.

L. Moak is right on. Kennedy did nothing but speak at the wall, Reagan brought it down. Yet our leftist author completely avoided mentioning him. This is yellow journalism at its best.

Beegee,

How did Reagan bring it down? Just by uttering magic words? I don't think the real world works that way. If I tell you to flap your arms and fly to the moon, do you think you will be able to do that just because I told you to?

Reagan did nothing to dismantle the Berlin wall! It's Gorbachev who rightfully got the credit.

"I remember very well when Reagan declared on TV, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall." Half the wall had already crumbled at the time!

This has nothing to do with 'LEFTIST' journalism or whatever conspiracy theory 'Beegee' conjurs up. In the early days of the cold war when Kennedy was president, the Soviet Union was a powerful country. By the late 1980's when Reagan (and his expensive, budget-deficit-causing arms-race deserves partial credit) the Soviet Union had bankrupted itself. In 1986 a German teenager showed the world the weak under-belly of the Soviet miltary, but INVADING the heavily guarded air-space AND landing it in red square! Then the Chernobyl disaster showed how weak, incompetent and fragile Soviet infra-structure is. By 1989 the Soviet Union was facing horrendous consumer goods shortages and even VODKA was in short supply! Before that, all was well as long as the cheap vodka flowed...
It also helped that by 1989 Gorbachov was running the Soviet Union, who told the East German and various Eastern European regimes that the Soviet Union was no longer WILLING or able to subsidize and militarily support their regimes...

So Let both Kennedy and Reagan be praised for standing in the right place at the right time of history and making the stand they did. Everybody knows Reagan said "Mr. Gorbachov, tear down this wall!" And because of Gorbachov being a realist... he let it happen!

ps: comment 2.8: you are wrong! The wall was still up and fully functioning and the last person killed at the wall died in 1989. It was far from 'crumbling'. The young man was shot February 8/9th 1989 and his name was Chris Gueffrey by the way and he was 20 years old.

Rodentrack, I am an Army Brat as well, and older. My first trip to Berlin was as a dependent in April of 1966. It was a special trip because Dad had been levied for Vietnam (we left Heidelberg in May of 1966); there was a lot he wanted to show mother brother and I) and although unspoken, we didn't know if he would come back from Vietnam at all. My second trip to Berlin and the Wall was late fall of 1967(PYOC--Protestant Youth of the Chapel--another trip on the Duty Train From Frankfurt) trip to Berlin); Dad had been promoted while in Vietnam and we returned to Heidelberg and I was able to graduate with my friends/classmates at the Castle in Heidelberg in June of 1968.

My third trip to Berlin was in September, 1969, exactly one year after the Russian invasion of Czechoslovakia. Too many people do not understand tha Berlin was 110 miles deep inside East Germany (DDR); it was so far east from Frankfurt I think Poland was less than 60 miles from the Berlin city limits. This round trip from Heidelberg through Helmstedt to Berlin via the Helmstedt-Berlin Autobahn I did under Flag Orders per the Status of Forces Agreement (Berlin was occupied by the 4 Allies until late in 1990) on my motorcycle (1966 Honda 305 Super Hawk). Checkpoint Charlie is the 3 stop in the string if you will; Helmstedt where you crossed into the DDR was Alpha. Bravo was at the end of the Helmstedt-Berlin Autobahn where you enterd the outskirts of Berlin via the British Zone of Occupation. This entry was Bravo. Checkpoint Charlie was where the American Zone had its official mutual crossing point with the Vopos and Stassi. If I remember right, I was on Friedrich Strasse when I made my entries into East Berlin.

In August of 1970 I went behind the Iron Curtain again on my motorcycle (same one) to Hungary. I traveled through and around Lake Balaton, on to Budapest and back to Heidelberg. Both ways I went through the length of Austria. When I crossed back (slithered back through the Iron Curtain) into Austria I spent a few days in a village just outside of Vienna--R & R. It's rumored that both of these motorcycle trips (at the ages of 19 & 20) were in the nature of unofficial LRRP's.

I returned to Germany and my beloved Heidelberg in June of 1990 for Heidelberg American High School's (HAHS) First All Years Reunion. Our system is simple-even if you didn't graduate from Heidelberg (due to PCS aka rotation for example) your "year is simply the year you would have graduated. I graduated in 1968, in Heidelberg but my brother (5 years younger) couldn't because Dad retired from the Army in September of 1970. The ceremony was in Heidelberg. Since he would have graduated in 1973, that's his "year." Anyway, as I was getting ready to go over in 1990 my boss said I should take more than a week; after all I had not been in Heidelberg for 20years. I thought about it (2 minutes) and asked if I could take all of my "use or lose" leave at once (160hrs at the time) and he said done. (I have been with the IRS since I was sworn in November 14, 1975 and am a Senior Revenue Agent (GS-13 step 9.)) At the end of the reunion (6 days) I hit the road for Berlin, wandering this way and that I crossed over into what was still East Germany at that point in time but at a crossing that was forbidden to us prior to 1989. Driving my rental car (at 40, my butt couldn't handle trips that long on a motorcycle any more, but I still ride) through No Man's land, the searching sheds (like open pole barns) and all of the other usual East German /Vopo/Stassi stuff I shot a roll of film with each camera. It was a very weird people to be waved through an area that from 8/1961 through 11/1989 was a place where the fear was palpable. I knew I would never have this opportunity again and I wanted to record at least what it looked like, including a shot down the line of the 2 fences and the no man's land in between. Berlin was unbelievable--transition was stunning. I stayed there a week, crossing back and forth into East Berlin at will. Now I had to ask the Vopos to stamp my passport (!!). Tthey said good idea because in 2 days they (guards) weren't even going to be there for that purpose.

I was a day late to see the Original Check Point Charlie. It had been removed the day before to its new home in the Smithsonian. Enterprising types had mallets and heavy hammers you could rent for 5 or 10 minutes; the idea being you could beat the hell out of the wall and make your own souvenir. I shared mine with a young Russian soldier. It seemed a poetic end to the Cold War in which my Father, my brother and I had participated. None of us have applied for the service ribbon commissioned and authorized (1990 I think) and probably won't. All 3 of us know we served in that mess (I was in the Army Reserve for my motorcycle forays behind the Iron Curtain) and the family, friends and others who matter know it as well.

My last trip (so far--I will go back again, probably after I have retired) was in 2006. Every 5 years we have an all years reunion in Heidelberg. This time I was not alone; my wife, stepdaughter, our grandson (6 at that time) and another young man (staying with stepdaughter age 12 roughly) came along. We arrived 4 or 5 days before the reunion was to begin so we could go to Berlin again. We retraced my path (from Frankfurt, not from Heidelberg to Helmstedt and on to Berlin, retracing my route from 1969 so I could show them the way I went and so I could observe the changes that occurred in 37 years. We came into Berlin at what had been Checkpoint Bravo which appeared to have been shuttered a month earlier. Those same old spooky feelings returned. Into the city proper to our hotel, the Hotel Heidelberg which is a few blocks off Kurfurstendam which is Berlin's Rodeo Drive or Chicago's Magnificent Mile on North Michigan Avenue. It was fun observing people seeing those sights for the first time. After Heidelberg, Berlin is my favorite city.

Leaving Heidelberg via the southern route, we were now retracing my path from 1990. I was glad I had taken those photographs in 1990. People seeing what had been the East German Border for the first time in 2006 probably would not believe me when I told them what it was like. Too bad I had to turn in the film from the 1970 excursion to Hungary!

Rodentrack, how old were you when you were a dependent in West Germany? Where was your Dad stationed? Sorry I rambled, but this is the first time I have put this much of my history in writing.

Jake in Chicago

I was there from 1973 - 1977, Bitburg. I played for the BHS Barons, we HATED Heidelburg! lol! (It was a long ride on the "blue gooses") Thanks for the history. Life is interesting, and the cold war was an era that will be studied for centuries! I went on the troop train twice, to Berlin. On one trip, my mother, brother, sister, and myself had to get a new temp passport and met my father on the east side for dinner. He had to be in "full blues".... strange fearful feelings, that night. The East Germans only wanted West German Marks, for our WONDERFUL dinner. Sorry, but I can't write as much as you, but thanks for the story!

Tim- F*ckin ease up! This story has nothing to do with the plight of the Palestinians! You're as bad as A.Smith used to be!

I'm supporting Israel by calling you out for talking crap about something which has NOTHING to do with this article?

Can you point out which post I made in which I said I support Israel?

There's a time and place for everything, Tim. You should learn yours.

You wouldn't say that if you had lived behind the wall. You are an ignorant I am sorry to say.

lourdesmanos; I would suggest North Korea to fullfil your wish. I hope you are not American.

I think rather than Reagan's expression resulting in the dismantling of the wall, the time to tear the wall down had just come. Gorbachev no doubt realized communism did not work; and the situation in East Germany was so bad, people were bound to revolt.

As far as Kennedy is concerned, you're right about the translation. If I recollect right, "ein Berliner" is some type of donut. He should have left the article out.

Although I haven't been to Berlin lately, I heard it's made up for lost time and has become a favorite place to visit for many non-Germans.

Jeff keep believing that. To Susi, Kennedy was right when he said "Ich bin ein Berliner", that's how you would say it.

You are absolutely right DirkAZ but, sadly, JeffinNM and Susi Oh -- have a slight misunderstanding of what they are taking about. A Berliner "is some sort of donut", true enough, but Kennedy's phrase of "ich bin ein Berliner" was made in an open air speech in Berlin in front of thousands of Germans. In this context it meant: "I am a Berliner" to signify that the Americans were hand in hand and firmly behind Berlin and all of Germany. It was a sensation to say the very least. I was stationed in Germany when the wall went up and you have to remember that Berlin was no more than an island in Russion territory at this time and was virtually cut off from the rest of West Germany except for two land routes. The "Cold War" was in full swing.

As for JeffinNM -- You have no idea what you are talking about sir and you should keep your smart mouth shut until you do.

Jeff in NM,

"Too bad the author couldn't bring himself to include what brought the wall down... "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!""

There's that old magical thinking again! You probably believe that story about the Israelites marching 7 times around the city of Jericho, blowing their trumpets, and the "walls came a tumbling down", too!

That whole: "Ich bin ein Berliner!" anecdote and some people thinking Kennedy made a fool of himself is absurd. German is my first language so allow me to set the record straight; a Berliner is indeed both a pastry and a citizen of Berlin. My uncle from Berlin would use the more commonly shortened phrase: "Ich bin Berliner!" (skipping the 'ein' which is for 'a')
And a citizen of Hamburg is also very much a 'Hamburger' just like the thing you order at McDonalds. Likewise a citizen of Frankfurt would be a 'Frankfurter' but you likely order a 'Bockwurst' or 'Heisswurst', but not order it with the word Americans use: 'Frankfurter'. You might order a different kind of sausage with the name 'Braunschweiger' which is the English word for 'Brunswick-er'...
So really, the whole 'Berliner' anecdote is almost absurd that virtually nobody I have ever known in Germany EVER confused the well-liked American president with a tasty pastry...

I wonder who came up with that non-sense. Most Germans know Americans rarely speak a foreign language, have a hard time pronouncing foreign words (only the French seem worse) and expect no perfection. But they appreciate the effort and get the drift!

Communism doesn't work?

You should tell that to the Chinese! lol

The wall came down because the USSR's communist war machine ran out of money. The wall would have come down had Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton or even Dan PotatoE Quayle been president of the USA.

stonegarden -- communism doesn't work as the Chinese have come to realize (check out private enterprise and personal wealth in China), neither does any other extreme form of government.

Well, let's see if someone who was around at the time can shed some light. The wall went up, the East Berliners were stranded and the Soviets were threatening to take West Berlin. We were into the Cold War at the time with a lot of tension and Krushchev running the USSR, the Cuban Crisis was soon to follow. No one wanted another war and the Soviets were paranoids. Total conservatives.

Prior to the completion of the Wall, Kennedy authorized the Berlin Airlift to help the citizens. President Kennedy then authorized the West Berlin reinforcement with a battalion of American troops with French and British soldiers assisting. It kept the Soviets in check. I suppose that's not much compared to Ronnie Raygun and his famous speech designed simply to include him in history while Gorbachov was already working to remove the the wall. That move ultimately cost Gorbachov and helped a scandal ridden Reagan regime.

As a footnote, many European leaders were totally against the reunification of Germany. After two horrible World Wars with massive destruction, who could blame them?

You kids need to read some world history atricles on the 'net. Leave the Facebook and Twitter alone for awhile.

You conservative Republiclowns are like the paranoid Soviets. Good role models for your party.

Billy I hate to say it, you should be the one reading more history. The airlift had nothing to do with Kennedy. It happened in 1948 and 49, because the Russians thought they could starve out west berlin and it would fall into their hands. They didn't like the fact that there was a 4 way occupation zone inside their zone which in 1949 became the DDR.

Next time billthepill don't trumpet your knowledge quite as loud.

A quick search on the Internet repeatedly bumps into the famous George Santayana quote “those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it”.

You would do well to remember those words in quotation marks....

Having been stationed at Templehoff (Berlin) with the Air Force during the 60's my wife and I will never take our freedom for granted. We agree with the quote " Those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it" When you hear gun fire at night knowing that people are being shot trying to escape from East Berlin into the West. You know how precious freedom is.

WOW! Both you and m-612920 are amazing. Have you never heard the saying, "Those who foget the past are doomed to repeat it. "? What is happening is not a CELEBRATION of the wall being built, it is a REMINDER of what can happen if you forget the past like the two of you would like to do. It's ignorant(as in unknowing) people like the two of you that will be the ultimate demise of the freedoms we still have.

On this somber occasion, I think the operative word is "remember", not "celebrate."

Just like we Americans will be doing next month when we remember the tenth anniversary of 9/11...

East Germany claimed at the time that West Berliners were purchasing subsidized food, and the wall was based on "economic issues". My take is the Soviet Union wanted consolidation and some degree of political unity in the east, and was probably the unseen driving force in putting up the wall.

Keep in mind that the U.S. creates walls as well --- Cuba, for example! Americans can't freely visit there, ostensiblhy for "economic reasons"! People, write your Congressmen, tell them that freedom is freedom, and we want the freedom to travel anywhere without government interference! Let's tear down the "Cuban wall" that our government has created!

Hey Mike your are not quite right. The wall was mainly build to keep people in. It wasn't about subsidized food it had more to do with the bleeding out of the people in the east. The DDR subsidized education, and that was much of the issue. People got highly educated in Universities in the east and then got lured away by companies in the west to work at cheaper salaries, but still got paid much more then back in the east. Besides the east "mark" was a none convertible currency and west "Mark of course was. This was a big difference in value. So many people left for that reason, there also was a smaller amount of people leaving for political reasons. My uncle for example was in the Hitler Youth and was captured in 46 by the Russians and then deported to war prison in the Ural mountain region around the city of Perm. Anyway he returned in the late 50th. He was afraid to go back to the soviet zone "Die Zone" and went straight to the west.

In any case the wall was mostly build for the reason that the country was bleeding out economically and they thought to stop it by shutting down the transit of people.

Well it probably would have started another war.

Brian you drove the nail all the way in with one hit!!

Jake in Chicago

Not to mention the fact that West Berlin was SURROUNDED by the Soviet controlled East Germany... A few hundred miles from the rest of Western Germany...

Does the name "Custer" ring a bell?

West Berlin would have been swallowed alive... THEN the missles would have started flying...That would have been the alternative end to the Cold War...

Poor lacy. If you did just a little research you would find that by the time Reagan spoke those words Gorbachev had already put the process into place, but not because of Reagan. 2 Polish men, one, a union organizer in Poland named Lech Walesa, and the other, Pope John Paul, did far more to end the Soviet Union than Reagan ever could or did, and if you do some reading about Gorbachev himself, you'd find out he was either truly brilliant or a complete moron (I still can't figure out which one). Either way, the Soviet Union was doomed to end the moment he became the Soviet president, and good ol' Ronnie had very little to do with it.

sillyson,

I think Gorbachev knew the days of the Soviet Union were numbered. I think he understood the situation better than anyone else.

These words didn't bring freedom, if anything it was great publicity.

He gave the speech in June of 1987. The wall was not coming down until late 1989. The uprising in Berlin, Dresden and Leipzig hasn't even begun. I know, I was there on the streets of Berlin and Cottbus. This was a speech only. If anybody should take credit besides the people on the streets in East Germany that should be George Bush 41 and Gorbatchov, as well as Chancellor Helmut Kohl. All spoke to each other in the days before the fall, knowing what could happen. Kohl encouraged both Bush and Gorbatchov, they agreed to let go and backup Germany's desire to come together. The time was right. That's what happened, I live in the United States for many years now, and I appreciate this country very much. The US military kept the balance in Berlin, but the desire of the east germans to overcome this wall, and some died in the process shall never be forgotten. This was our uprising and I am proud of it.

DirkAZ,

"He gave the speech in June of 1987. The wall was not coming down until late 1989."

Good post! There are many who mistakenly believe that Reagan caused the dismantling of the Berlin wall just by utter the words "Mr. Gorbachev! Tear down that wall!". I suppose the same people also believe in magic.

You got that right ! Just as they believe in miracles now going through the tea party blabber.

I feel sufficiently berated. Thank all of you, very much. Now, Mickey, I will go to my Fairy Castle and have a good cry. LOL.

lacywild,

I'm sure you meant well, and I'm not trying to put Reagan down for his speech. His words were strong and expressed everyone's sentiments. But walls don't just come tumbling down because of words.

I know his words did not bring down that wall, but I think his speech is what will be most remembered by a lot of people. A lot of moments in history are remembered because of words that were spoken at the time.

lacywild,

"A lot of moments in history are remembered because of words that were spoken at the time."

You're right about that!

You have a good evening, Mickey.

You, too, lacywild!

Reagan deserves the most credit for letting go of his ideology in order to develop a relationship with Gorbachov and vice versa

Just like a retardicant...cryin' like Boner! Man up you pansy!!

Reagan could have stood there at the wall for days,weeks,month shouting about it...that wall would still be standing today if the EAST GERMAN people hadn't pursued their want for freedom.It was them who,in the summer of 1989, crowded the West German embassies in Budapest,Prague and Warsaw,asking for passports and permission to travel to the west.It was them who camped out on the Austrian-Hungarian border and after days of waiting rushed it.It was them who,by the thousands, took to the streets in cities like Leibzig and Berlin,and peacefully demonstrated.And it was them who came to the wall,half a million strong,under the impression travel restrictions were going to be lifted that night...and received no resistance from the border guards.

They earned it for themselves...not Reagan

You could have not said it any better. Give credit to the people of that time.

Reagan made a speech. Whoopee; as if speeches and memos ever won wars, hot or cold, by themselves. What happened in 1989 was trickle that turned into flood as the people realized there were more of them than there were Vopos'.

Before the Wall came down in Berlin Hungary started the process when they allowed more and more people to do whatever they wanted and go wherever they felt like, once they entered Hungary. That included trekking further south to Austria where the Hungarians didn't care if they crossed over into Austria and the Austrians let them.

Time passed (months or weeks) and things accelerated in Berlin where people began to arrive at all of the various crossing points (Check Point Charlie was the one for the American Sector (Berlin was still an occupied City under the Status of Forces Agreement). Lines built up, the pressure built, low ranking guards had no one to answer their questions (bureaucracies are pretty much the same the world over) and a very low ranking person on the other end of one of the phone lines said "oh hell, let 'em go" or words to that effect.

Remember, no one had any paperwork in their possession that gave them permission to even be at the wall, let alone cross through! If you didn't live in or visit Berlin between 8/13/1961 through 11/1989 you may not understand that you had to have the right papers to do anything in East Berlin, as a citizen of East Berlin and East Germany accept maybe take an approved dump.

As an Army Brat I graduated from Heidelberg American High School in 1968. A friend and classmate (1969) has lived most of his adult life in Berlin and he was in Berlin that magic night in November 1989. The trickle turned into a flood at night.

Reagan's speech didn't do it. If anything, it was dueling budgets, deficits, and national debt. Russia's economy collapsed because it had to--they went broke. If it hadn't been for all of the support from the west in terms of food and hard currency from the West, the collapse would have occurred earlier.

We outspent the Russians into oblivion. Afghanistan was their Vietnam. Look at it another way--they couldn't "...keep up with the Joneses." It wasn't ideology but reality that won the day. Reality was that their way was unsustainable.

Jake in Chicago

Placing flowers at a memorial is a celebration?

As I recall, East Germany wasn't shelling or attacking West Germany at the time. and no one was doing suicide bombing and car bombing from east Berlin into West Berlin. Seems to me you're doing a wonderful job of comparing apples and oranges and coming up with beetle dung. In other words, irrelevent.

^ This

Yeah, because this story had a lot to do with that. lol

The biggest difference in the Berlin Wall/Palestinian "Fence" discussion is this:

East and West were all German Nationals... It wasn't the people who were fighting each other, but rather the Soviet/NATO forces...

The Israeli/Palestinian affair has two very differing groups of people who ARE fighting one another...

Kind of an Apples and Oranges sort of thing...