At least 20 states are considering “anti-Shariah” measures, which in various ways prohibit the courts from considering Islamic law in their decisions. Muslim advocates say the measures are legal gibberish that promote fear and hatred, while drafters portray them as a bulwark against creeping Islamization.

Shariah law IS promoting fear and hatred

Under Sharia law:

· There is no freedom of religion
· There is no freedom of speech
· There is no freedom of thought
· There is no freedom of artistic expression
· There is no freedom of the press
· There is no equality of peoples-a non-Muslim, a Kafir, is never equal to a Muslim
· There are no equal rights for women
· Women can be beaten
· A non-Muslim cannot bear arms
· There is no equal protection under Sharia for different classes of people. Justice is dualistic, with one set of laws for Muslim males and different laws for women and non-Muslims.
· Our Constitution is a man-made document of ignorance, jahiliyah, that must submit to Sharia
· There is no democracy, since that means that a non-Muslim is equal to a Muslim
· Non-Muslims are dhimmis, third-class citizens
· There is no Golden Rule
· There is no critical thought
· All governments must be ruled by Sharia law

Unlike common law, Sharia is not interpretive, nor can it be changed

See what a former muslim says...

http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=556:taqiyyah-the-islamic-principle-of-holy-deception&catid=73:brahmachari&Itemid=58

Thank God I live in the country with neighbors not very close, but one thing for sure, I would not like you living next door to me no matter how far the distance. You talk a good talk about Jesus, but your words here are not in tune with what you claim Jesus to be and you sure don't seem to practices it ( based on your statement here ). As to the KKK you know hate is hate, no matter what or whom you hide it behind.

I mean just my thoughts on your post, nothing personal, peace brother !!

“Raymond Ibrahim is associated with a group that has a long history of one issue — bashing Muslims and Islam,”

Regardless of who he is associated with, if what he says is TRUE then it is what it is. You've heard of "call a spade a spade". The truth is not always pretty. I can't wait for the time of enlightment when ALL religions will just vanish, Hallelujah!

“To a Muslim, jihad means a certain kind of struggle — spreading and empowering Islam against non-Muslims,” Ibrahim told students and local residents who crowded the lecture hall. “Peace with non-Muslims is a provisional state only.”

Unfortunately, that seems to be the teachings promoted by the terrorists, and it's hard not to be concerned - especially since Muslims tend to isolate themselves instead of assimilating like other cultural groups typically have done.

I commend Everett College for their courage in exercizing free and open speech on the topic, and their common sense in requiring all questions to be in writing to avoid 'shouting matches'.

Bob Martinez " I can't wait for the time of enlightment when ALL religions will just vanish, Hallelujah!"

Thanks for the laugh. You bash all religions that praise God, and then you end your comment with Hallelujah, which means Hallelu (Praise) jah (God).

It sort of reminds me of the Bible story of Balaam.

Our founding fathers made a huge mistake when writing the Bill of Rights. Two little letters but a big difference: Freedom OF religon should have been written Freedom FROM religon.

But I don't worry about America and the Islamo-facists. Does anyone on this board believe God will save us from them if we don't take steps to save ourselves? And Christians, too. Jesus must be spinning in his grave ;)

The fear sides of our minds seems to be working overtime lately.

Freedom of speech is great.

The number of people buying in to the fear is disappointing though.

So how many here are taking their position for shock value only?

Beanne-

Um, you do know that Jesus is a very respected character and religious figure in the Qur'an, right? If you have never opened your mind enough to actually look into a religion instead of believing the fear and hatred spread by others, you would be surprised about the many similarities to the bible, including the story of how Jesus will come back to save followers from an anti-christ figure during the end of times. You would know that the Virgin Mary is a highly respected character, and that Jesus was a messenger from G-d/YWHW/Allah (same entity, different names. Study religion, it's amazing what you learn when you keep your mind open). It's disgusting hearing lies and misinformation by closed-minded individuals who refuse to take the time to learn something instead of parroting the words of fear-mongers.

Christianity is just as evil. Look at its history and look at violence in the name of Christianity, and the violence that continues in the name of Christianity. It's disgusting how people act toward those of a different religion. You speak of Jesus promoting love, etc., yet, you spread lies and fear about others (who, coincidentally, also believe in Jesus as an important religious figure. I never understood people who wanted to burn the Qur'an, because WWJD? Certainly not condone the burning of a book that speaks highly of him. I'm sure Jesus is not going to be too happy with many Christians. Instead of loving neighbors and all the other teachings of Jesus, all I hear is hatred and talk that goes completely against what Jesus stood for). Where is YOUR love for your fellow neighbor? Hypocrite. Do not invoke the name of Jesus for the sake of spreading lies about a religion that also involves Jesus in a positive light. Open your eyes and realize that what you are doing goes against every one of Jesus' teachings. You are not a true Christian, despite what you believe. You are a shining example of a hypocritical bigot and nothing more.

Do NOT ever bring up Jesus as a way to put down a religion, especially when that religion regards Jesus as an important figure. It makes you look incredibly ignorant.

PLeeeeease....They are comparing this guy to the KKK. First of the KKK was formed by white supremists who hated people for the color of their skin and nothing else. This man is not spreading hatred, he is telling the truth. The truth hurts and if we Americans don't get with it and get off this P.C. garbage then we are going to be the ones hurting.

Exactly right Beanne.
BUT OF COURSE!! It's always HATE SPEECH when people of other religions (Catholics, Jews, Hindus)
or non religions (Atheists) stand up for themselves.
But when radical Islamic nuts spew their stone-aged vitriolic krap it NEVER IS, RIGHT???????

The fact the we here in America, have to defend our selves because we believe in God, or want the Laws of "our" Country to stand is offensive! People come to this Country because of the freedoms and opportunities afforded them, but then they turn around and try to turn "our" country into a form of the one they just left.

Anyone that does not like the way we live here then please leave, I'm quite sure there is another person that would be more than happy to live here and abide by our laws and live in peace.

You can call me what you choose. Ignorant, maybe, but not stupid. And I and not one of the many people I know and associate with would call me a Biggot, only a realist. You on the other hand sound like a sheeple and will be one of the many that will get in the shower line I suspect.

Islamic Sharia Law in Brief

written by a former muslim

http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=625:islamic-sharia-law-in-brief&catid=79:mirza&Itemid=58

I think the majority of Muslims only want what every one else wants, to lead a successful life and raise a family. The trouble is the minority who wish to wage Jihad on innocent (and in some cases, not so innocent) people.

I hope the peaceful majority are vigilant against those who wish to strike to avenge U. bin Hidin's demise. If Muslims can help prevent a future UBL revenge attack, it will do wonders for their image !!

FedupwithFed - you know nothing about Shar'ia Law, getting your information from an anti-Muslim hate group does not help your case. First Sharia Law ONLY applies to Muslims, so there is NO "non-Muslim 3rd class citizen." I'll give you a link which provides factual information on Shar'ia Law but in a nutshell it is "counseling and/or arbitration for things that are not in the Qur'an or other teachings." An example - you know that your boss is stealing from your company but you don't know what to do. If you confront the boss you may lose your job. You look to your Bible - it says that you must provide for your family, but it also says not to lie, so you are still in a quandary. You visit your pastor/priest and ask his advice, he may tell you that you need to consult a lawyer. So, you consult a lawyer - this is the part where Shar'ia law is used - the lawyer may tell you that yes, you may lose your job but you will probably win a lawsuit or you may not win a lawsuit. The lawyer is further advice on specific incidences (not a "Law") the way Westerners consider it but rather advice when the answer is not clear.

Link: http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/Articles/law.htm

Highlights from link above:

Islamic law is known as Sharia Law, and Sharia means the path to follow God's Law. Sharia Law is holistic or eclectic in its approach to guide the individual in most daily matters. Sharia Law controls, rules and regulates all public and private behavior. It has regulations for personal hygiene, diet, sexual conduct, and elements of child rearing. It also prescribes specific rules for prayers, fasting, giving to the poor, and many other religious matters. Civil Law and Common Law primarily focus on public behavior, but both do regulate some private matters.

Sharia Law can also be used in larger situations than guiding an individual's behavior. It can be used as guide for how an individual acts in society and how one group interacts with another. The Sharia Law can be used to settle border disputes between nations or within nations. It can also be used to settle international disputes, conflicts and wars. This Law does not exclude any knowledge from other sources and is viewed by the Muslim world as a vehicle to solve all problems civil, criminal and international.

Sharia Law has several sources from which to draw its guiding principles. It does not rely upon one source for its broad knowledge base.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/10/religion.law1

Please stop spreading hate (all of you) about a religion of which YOU have not personally studied but rather "know" through the rants of Beck and Limbaugh. Read the Qur'an - it does not say to kill infidels (unless you are threatened with death) and infidel is actually a Latin word - the Catholics used it, it means "one without faith." So, any person believing in their God, is not an infidel. Don't hate based on lies and inuendo. People are people.

@lalalalaaa

Yes, the Koran does speak of Jesus and Miriam...multiple times. However, IMO (and yes, I have read the Koran-3 different interpretations) the verses about Jesus are only an effort to deny His Diety. As a matter of fact, it states that Jesus will come back to straighten out His followers by telling them that He wasn't crucified...He was miraculously taken from the cross by Allah BUT He was only a prophet. He will come back to support the 13th Imam in a Holy War...exactly the opposite of the Christian prophecies (as interpreted by most scholars). Is this some part of taqqiya itself, to try to calm the Christians by misrepresenting what is presented in the Koran? Maybe, or maybe American Muslims don't hear the same interpretation. What I came away with was not what I have heard it talked about by those who would argue that it is a religion of peace...instead, I saw a repetition of familiar stories with sometime major differences making them more suitable for Mohammad's purpose. I saw a lot of killing and admonitions that most of us were going to burn in hell (not considerably different from the Old Testament or Torah) and I saw an attempt to discredit the other 2 established major religions as well as the pagan (Arab) religions of the time. BTW...not some right-wing conservative here...I read the Koran because I thought ppl were being ignorant condemning something they didn't understand and the Allah and God were the same ...that is no longer what I believe. Ask a Middle Eastern Muslim if our God and Allah are the same and they will tell you NO...as a matter of fact, just a few years ago there was a huge protest when a Christian Bible was translated using Allah for God.

All that being said, I do not know what the answer is. I do NOT believe in discriminating against or being hateful to Muslims-particularly our neighbors here in America, but the way the religion is practiced in other countries does concern me.

Hahaha @ "stormin' norman." Am I the only one who envisions 'Yosemite Sam' when reading this dude's comments??

Black Kettle & Sand Creek...lest we forget

I see as a good little muslim, you are practicing taqiyya. I do not get my information from one link, nor Limbaugh, (whom I can’t stand) or Beck for that matter. I have extensively studied shariah law and islam for years. Please stop spreading your lies! Did you bother to read the link? Do you deny what he says?

Read the Qur'an - it does not say to kill infidels

Then please explain...

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to this verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution" (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah." The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

"People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.

Thanks PDK. I always loved Yosemite Sam. I see all these comments how we just need to get along and we need to love the Muslims and let them invade our country. Well that BS. I have lived and worked all over this world and been around millions of muslims and I can tell you that 95% not 5% or even 10%, Hate you and would like to see Americans all dead and all Jews dead. That my friend is a fact. it is taught in their schools and in theior homes and it will not ever change. No matter how many Obama bows down to.

What I truly love about the internet is anyone can find a website and give a link to it that will seem to validate anything that anyone wants to say about any topic. As if everything on the internet and their links can be believed. Try this one

www.sellyabroklynbridgecheap.com/fairtales

Lalala

Um, you do know that Jesus is a very respected character and religious figure in the Qur'an, right?

The Koran doesn’t believe in the Christ the rest of the world believe in, they believe in a different Jesus, they say if Christians say that Jesus is the son of God then they are disbelievers……!, and you know also from the Koran how Muslims should deal with the disbelievers..

[5.17] Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely, Allah-- He is the Messiah, son of Marium.

[5.72] Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium;

[5.73] Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.

[5.75] The Messiah, son of Marium is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.

Quran 5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.

Qur'an (3:85) - "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

Qur'an (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Qur'an (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them.

Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews.

Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

Qur'an (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"

Qur'an (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

Make no mistake - even "peaceful" muslims are waiting for islamic world dominance.
Have you seen ANY of them taking a stand against murderous extremists? Islam is not peaceful nor is it a religion. It is a complete world view that has Zero tolerance for outsiders with competing beliefs. Trust them at your peril.

Convert to Islam Or We Kill You ,sure sounds peaceful huh.

Sonbeam- Very good points, however, what you come away with and what others come away with will ALWAYS be different. Every religious text can be interpreted in different ways. If you sit down for a discussion about a religious text, you will hear so many differing interpretations. That does not mean that you are right/they are wrong, and vice versa. Also, you cannot tell me the Christian Bible has no killings or violence. We can agree to disagree because my interpretation is different than yours. If you are a Christian, you read the text as a Christian, therefore, your interpretation will be different from someone who has no preference toward religion. You've read the Qur'an multiple times, I have sat down and had classes and debates about religions from all over the world. You cannot convince me into believing the violence in the Bible is okay, but if it's in the Qur'an, then it's bad. You cannot convince me that Jesus is not praised and treated as a HIGHLY respected figure in both religions (To anyone interested, google "jesusinthequran". It's pretty interesting).

I do not understand why you made the right-wing conservative? Why would I think that, and what does it have to do with this conversation? If you can hold a conversation without sounding ignorant and foolish, I could honestly care less what political party you support. What ever happened to just being people instead of labels? (sorry for that side rant).

You are right, most people of each religion do not not believe the G-ds are the same. However, from everything I have read and studied, I believe that it is the same being.

I have stated that Europe will be in a civil war within twenty years with the indigenous population and the radical Muslims fighting to convert it or die trying. Since then I think this most likely will come within ten to fifteen years. Europe is already granting Muslims their own courts, and allowing them to describe justice to their own people.

The problem with America is that we are basically a melting pot, but like it or not if we keep giving we will find ourselves following shortly after.

Now, with this being stated, as a firm believer in the constitution I do and always will believe that we are given the right to practice our religion of any faith. But if a faith or a people rise up and try to overthrow this country then we need to wean out the bad from the good (yes, I do not believe that all Muslims feel the same way) and force the people that do not like our liberties to leave, nicely at first and if that does not work then throw them out on their @ss.

name-1459565,

I said Jesus was a respected figure. I NEVER said he was viewed in the same way in both religions. Please don't insult my intelligence. I mention Jesus being regarded in a positive light in both religious texts. We are looking at two different religious texts that share over 50 characters and many similar stories. When Christianity was formed, there were those who went and wrote their stories as they saw fit, just as they did with Islam. If the books are written by different people, obviously each will tell a different story of how things went down, etc. The point of my argument is that people need to open their eyes and realize that there are actually many similarities between the two religions. And both have a pretty heavy body count, though I believe over the years Christianity has claimed far more lives.

Name- "The Koran doesn’t believe in the Christ the rest of the world believe in"

The rest of the world DOES NOT believe in Christ. Maybe you do and other Christians but do not assume that everyone else in the world shares your view cause we do not.

Em0199

Sorry, my bad, I meant the rest of the Christians,

I read the blogs and people just bash the Christians as if they are all crazy. Our ancestors and alot of so called Christians today really do some seriously ignorant things that make Christians look bad. We are all placed in a catagory as if we all do the same bad things. The other garb is how Christianity is portrayed. A Christian isn't of this world. GOD offers a free gift to all. Thats eternal life in Heaven, after we leavt this rock. The simple fact is we are all going to die and it's un avoidable. We will all be judged by our creator. GOD nor Christianity trys to shove it down anybodys throat. It's offered and if you as a individual have no use for Christ, you don't have to accept or worship him. It's that simple. The foolish ignorant people who do things in the name of Christianity go totally against GODS word. Please feel free to bash the individual rather then the faith. Ignorance is infinate in society. So anybody who has to bash on the Christian faith really needs to take a serous look at himself in the mirror. The Christian faith is as full of fools as the rest of the world. Taking GODS word out of context is just as foolish. Denying Christ is as foolish. You have a right to walk away from Christ and ignore him just as much as I have a right to accept Christ. I understand the gift of acceptnce. Placing all the Chritians in a bundle, just because some are fools, is just as ignorant. Read the Ten Commandments and GODS word, cover to cover and understand it before you blast foolishness against Christianity. Doing right, understanding GODS word, and living by GODS word is a great lifestyle. Yes....a lifestyle. To bash his word and the faith is pure ignorance. There is nothing wrong with living GODS word. Read it, live it, understand it. It will do nothing less, then give you a road to pure freedom. After you read it, understand it and live by it, you won't turn back. Stop bashing something you have no clue about. Your as ignorant as the people who sin and justify it in the name of CHRIST. Real Christians know better.

This is just ONE paragraph from the Muslim Brotherhood Strategic Memorandum on North American Affairs, which was obtained during the 2007 Holy Land Trial investigating terrorist funding.

"The process of settlement is a "Civilization-Jihadist Process" with all the means. The Ikwan [the Muslim Brotherhood] must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying Western Civilization from within and "sabotaging" its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and Allah's religion is made victorious over all other religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes...."

Sound familiar?

Read the full memorandum here (first part is Arabic, but an English translation follows):

http://www.investigativeproject.org/documents/misc/20.pdf

@name-1459565

It’s amazes me that you fail to comprehend that Christians and Muslim are brothers, both descendants of Abraham… Ishmael and Isaac. (Ishmael the father of Islam and Isaac the father of Christianity)

We see in Genesis chapter 12 verses 1-3, when Abraham is already 75 years old, God promises that he will be the father of a great nation - but he does not have any children. The promise is repeated in Genesis chapter 13 verses 14-16, but there is still no sign of children. In Genesis chapter 15 verses 4-5, when Abraham doubts, God renews the promise - but there are still no children. So when he is 86, Abraham decides to take things into his own hands, and fathers a child, Ishmael, with one of his slave girls. In Genesis chapter 17 verses 17-19, thirteen years later, when Abraham is 99 and his wife is 90, and Ishmael is 13 and practiced his father’s religion Islam which he later took into the Arabian desert. Genesis chapter 21 verses 1-2, Isaac is born. Sometime, thereafter God tells Abraham to take thy son, thy first born son and sacrifice him to test his faith. Here is where the question about which son Abraham took to be sacrificed… Muslims argue it was Ishmael and Christians argue is Isaac. Maybe if both sides understood this very close shared family history there would be a more tolerate attitude from both sides. Oh and feel free to research these facts and form your own opinion, but there’s little doubt both Christians and Muslim's share the same family lineage.

em0199

Name- "The Koran doesn’t believe in the Christ the rest of the world believe in"

The rest of the world DOES NOT believe in Christ. Maybe you do and other Christians but do not assume that everyone else in the world shares your view cause we do not.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/beliefnet_poll_010718.html

Eighty-three percent of Americans identify themselves as Christians.

I guess you are just in the minority?

Greg

Don’t get me wrong, I have no problems with Muslims, I have Muslim friends, few of them, they are all nice people, just like anybody else, they work hard to support their families, they struggle to make ends meet like all of us, the Koran is the problem, it promotes violence among Muslims, this is the problem….and please don’t say the Bible is the same, maybe you have few Christian groups bombed and killed, but those are very very few, they claimed they were Christians while they didn’t follow the teaching of the Christ in any thing they did….

Which make us wonder why everyone is so frantic about Muslims in the US. With less than 6% being Muslim how are they a threat. You have a more likely chance of the Mormons taking over than the Muslims.(8% Mormon)

Deebo-2977870

LMAO

FedupwithFed

em0199

The rest of the world DOES NOT believe in Christ.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/beliefnet_poll_010718.html

Eighty-three percent of Americans identify themselves as Christians.

Learn to read.

I have to wonder if all this talk about Islam isn't similar to the propaganda sent out by the Nazis about Jews in pre-WWII Germany?

We have a mosque close by, it was built prior to 9/11. We have neighbors from all over the globe, the only ones knocking on doors and trying to convert anyone are the Jehovah's Witnesses and the occasional Mormon or Baptist.

They go to work, spend time with their families and practice their religion; the same as any other human beings. So exactly how are they a threat?

Note to beanne The KKK do not just hate African Americans - They also hate anyone who is not a white, anglo-saxon, protestant, heterosexual, plus they hate anyone who associates with anyone who isn't a heterosexual, WASP!

Every religion has problems it's called fundamentalism. Followers of every faith are guilty of it. I gave up religion about 18 years ago, I can honestly tell you I am much happier without it and live a more truthful life as well.

Blondenness,

Good observation, prior to 9/11 nobody gave Islam a second look.

As long as obumbo is in the WH the muslims will feel empowered.

name-1459565:...Don’t get me wrong, I have no problems with Muslims...

Well "WEST"; now it appears we are beginning to see the some light "truth" about Islam. Please I ask you to make an educated statistical study and you will find out how Islam has managed to undermine human (civil) right around the world. You will find how every country that came infected with Islam has managed to eliminate Jews and Christians from its soil. Do we really want to be the next mankind to be eradicated. See and learn from what happened to Christians, Hindi, and Jews in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Albania, Turkey, Somalia, Pakistan, Philippine, Yugoslavia (dead) and our important friends in this issue Russia and India.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world

Here people can defend the Quran and the Sharia law. But the truth is that only Muslims that do not profess their religion according to Sharia Law are the most tolerant, westernized and critics of their own religion. Whoever who practice Islam and follow the Sharia law, the most fundamentalist are the least tolerant and see the western civilization has the enemy to their religion, therefore they must to take over the infidels and they do in two ways, peaceful with the help of organizations like CARE and promoting violence with the help of the jihadist Muslim warriors in their numerous group, Al-Qaida one of them. I you defend Islam and you know or are relative of a person that is gay , remember this. Eminent scholars of Islam, such as Sheikh ul-Islam Imam Malik, and Imam Shafi amongst others, ruled that Islam disallowed homosexuality and ordained capital punishment for a person guilty of it. Homosexual activity is a crime and forbidden in most Muslim-majority countries. In the Islamic regimes of Iran, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Yemen, homosexual activity is punished with the death penalty

lalalalalaaaa

You can sit here and spin it all you want about how muslims respect Jesus and Mary in the quran but you are so full of it as are the muslims that claim this.

1) Allah and God of the Bible are not the same. God of the Bible claimed Jesus as his son. Allah has no sons.

2) Jesus of the Bible died and then raised to life. Isa (the so called Jesus of quran) didn't die. The sole mission of the real Jesus was to die for the sins of the world. When you negate that one truth of his mission, you have a false Jesus.

If you want to respect the Jesus in the Bible then don't deny that he died and that he claimed to be the son of God.

You claim similarities in the Bible and Quran but when you modify stories, it no longer is similar. Islam is a counterfeit religion. It tries to pretend to come from Christianity so that it can lead millions of people away from Christianity.

As previous writers have stated, You only need to look at the founders of both religion. What message did they teach? How did they act? Now which one would you follow? For me, it sure is not Muhammad.

lalalalalalal: Facinating how you have twisted the truth to support your position. To counter your contention about islam as a religion of peace please tell me the ONLY religion that has had all of their major cleric leadership declared jihad against all non-believers throughout the world? Here is a clue - Islam. Which religion leads the world in terrorist attacks against those they consider non-believers ? Islam and has for the last 63 years. Which religion has been responsible for the most deaths caused by violence with the victims including both non-believers and muslims? Islam.

Do you see a pattern here? The rest of the world does - we recognize islam as a religion based upon bigotry, hatred, persecution of those considered non-believers, slaughter of innocents, rape of the young and defenseless - that is the Islam the world knows.

including the story of how Jesus will come back to save followers from an anti-christ figure during the end of times

hey lalalalalaaaa I see you conviently left out the part where he will then convert everyone to islam and will slaughter everyone who refuses to convert

american christian pastors can no longer pray in jesus name in a public forum because it "offends" all these muslims who respect him so much

the KKK was formed by white supremists who hated people for the color of their skin and nothing else.

The KKK preached hatred of an awful lot of people for reasons ranging far beyond skin pigmentation.

We are seeing a resurgence of the same type of sentiments that inspired the old KKK. Anti-immigrant, anti-Latino, anti-Muslim, anti-'foreign-born' Presidents, to go along with the same old, anti-Jew, anti-black, anti-Catholic rants.

Pseudo-Islamic supremecists should rightly be opposed. But lumping all Muslims together in the same evil box in order to vilify the entire body of believers has more in common with bin Ladenism (and the KKK) than it does with Christian teaching, American ideals, or sound reasoning.

The real enemy is hate-mongering, whether it attempts to hide itself in the guise of pseudo-Islam (like bin Laden) or pseudo-patriotism (like many of the rabid anti-Islam crowd).

"Ibrahim argued that taqiyya is broadly used by apparently moderate Muslims whose real aim is to convert and control others."

How is this different from Christian denominations that charge the members of their congregations to go out and deliver their testimonies to the "non-believers"? In doing so, is it not their goal to convert that non-believer?

I live in Alabama in the heart of Southern Baptist territory. Even though I hae a sign on my front door that says, "No Solicitation or Evangelizing, or Prophesying" I can't go 10 days without a group of them ringing my doorbell. I'll ask nicely if they noticed the sign and the response has always been yes. I will then ask if they know what Evangelizing or Prophesying means? That is 50/50 on an affirmative answer, but if they do know what it means, I will then ask why they chose to ignore my request. The most common response to that question is always along the line of, "Well, you are just the type of person we feel we really need to reach out to." At that point, I shut the door in their face.

Ternan

Yes there has been terror in Islam's name. However look at where it comes from. The countries these people live in are very fundamentalist, like Afghanistan pre 9/11, Yemen, Pakistan, etc.

The lack of an economy and basic freedoms also drive people to terrorism. Most fundamental Arabs hate the west for what we have not necessarily our beliefs.

Furthermore I have lived right next to the largest population of Muslims out side of the middleeast which is Dearborn Michigan. In thirty three years I have never seen one incident to take note of.

Bobby they are in your back yard and you cant't see them or you are one of them.

Federal authorities on Wednesday arrested several members of a radical Sunni Islam group in the U.S., killing one of its leaders at a shootout in a Michigan warehouse, the U.S. attorney’s office said.

Agents were trying to arrest Luqman Ameen Abdullah, 53, at a Dearborn warehouse on charges that included conspiracy to sell stolen goods and illegal possession and sale of firearms. Authorities also conducted raids elsewhere to try to round up 10 followers named in a federal complaint.

Abdullah refused to surrender, fired a weapon and was killed by gunfire from agents, FBI spokeswoman Sandra Berchtold said.

In the 43-paged complaint unsealed Wednesday, the FBI said Abdullah, also known as Christopher Thomas, was an imam, or prayer leader, of a radical group named Ummah whose primary mission is to establish an Islamic state within the United States.

"...looking at the 2 Relgions in this simple context......which would you rather have living next door?"

Hmm, so I have to choose between which neighbor practices his belief in his imaginary friend in the most peaceful way?

Can I please have a third choice? I would prefer to live next to atheists - at least they aren't lead around by an emotional need to be vindicated through connection to a sky fairy.

Clearly I'm not a fan of religion, but I'm even less of a fan of hate - especially hate that seems to be religiously motivated. I consider that to be the absolute worst of religion - any religion. I will identify it when I see it without regards to which religion it is. Right now it is the christian hate of muslims. Tomorrow I will come down on muslim's hate of christians. It's all emotionally irrational to me and I dole out my condemnations equally.

Look, the old testament is full of beheadings and genocide, torture and rape. But do we say that Jews are going to kill all their neighbors because their book has those stories in it? Of course not! So how can we assume that muslims will kill all of their neighbors just because their book has some weird stuff in it? Peaceful is as peaceful does and you cannot ever judge a man by the worst person to practice his religion. If we all judged everyone by the worst person to practice their religion, then I have to call everyone a rapist.

By the very logic of the arguments of people like Raymond Ibrahim we should all be considered rapists and murderers, thugs and thieves. I will respectfully shake my head at many of the beliefs of many religions, but I will never call a peaceful man a murderer simply because of what it says in a book. A book, mind you, whose main connection to the man is what family he was born into.

We all understand (at least at some level) that if we were born in a different part of the world we would have been brought up in a different religion. We only have love for a particular religion because it is the religion of our family. Many practice openly out of sheer peer pressure and cultural inclusiveness, but practicing openly and the strength of one's faith do not always go hand in hand. The strength of that belief has little to do with the religion itself and everything to do with the individual. Therefore no man can easily be judged by what it says in their book. Saying that another man is a murderer because of his religion is hypocritical to the highest degree and belies the fact that we are all human beings with the same needs, wants, and desires.

Ignorance and more ignorance. BTW taqqiya is only followed by Shi'a as a matter of fiqh. Most scholars of Islam restrict such uses to life and death circumstances as in living in a place where Muslims are subjected to death as in pre-islamic Arabia.

You distort the Qu'ran by taking passages out of context (sort of like Salafi/Wahabi idiots do) and by giving passages speaking of specific events and circumstances, as in people fighting the Arabians who were attempting to eradicate Islam some modern world wide meaning. It shows stupidity.

Islam as a religion can never have a world wide empire, for the "Sunnah" or hadith of Sunni and Shi'a say clearly such a thing will not exist until Jesus returns to rule on Earth. Pretty close to the Kingdom Jesus rules according to most Christians. You Christians may want to study the origin of the trinity as most educated people understand the divinity ascribed to Jesus comes from Roman paganism. Even some Christian groups say that.

Like I said ignorance!

and practiced his father’s religion Islam

Oh and feel free to research these facts and form your own opinion

Greg, perhaps you should go back and read Genesis 14-22

²² But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “With raised hand I have sworn an oath to the LORD, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth

Abraham did NOT practice Islam

Perhaps you should go back to Genesis 9 AFTER the flood…everyone died in the flood except Noah and his family whom God saved…

Further reading…

but Sarah shall be her name. ¹⁶ And I will bless her and also give you a son by her; then I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall be from her.”

¹⁸ And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before You!”
¹⁹ Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him. ²⁰ And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. ²¹ But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.”

Genesis 21 Hagar and Ishmael Sent Away

¹² But God said to him, “Do not be so distressed about the boy and your slave woman. Listen to whatever Sarah tells you, because it is through Isaac that your offspring^[b] will be reckoned. ¹³ I will make the son of the slave into a nation also, because he is your offspring.”

¹⁴ Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the Desert of Beersheba.

Clearly, Abraham did not sacrifice Ishmael…he was already gone into the desert with his mother.

Genesis 22

¹ Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, “Abraham!”

“Here I am,” he replied.

² Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”

Like any immigrants, I, as an American, have a problem with them not integrating into American society. They're still clustering themselves, often not learning the language, laws, customs, and patriotism that would make them Americans, and not just transplanted Muslims. They also need to understand that the law of the land supersedes their religious law. If they find this unacceptable, then they need to leave, not try to continue practicing illegally those tenets of their religion that our society doesnt tolerate by law.

"Bobby they are in your back yard and you cant't see them or you are one of them."

I certainly do not side with this group arrested by the FBI, but I want to put this into some historical context, lest we fall into the trap of believing these muslims represent some new threat to America.

"Although Mormon military action was generally initiated in response to reports of violence, the Mormons tended to overreact and in some instances retaliated against innocent citizens. Their perception of themselves as the chosen people, their absolute confidence in their leaders, and their determination not to be driven out led Mormon soldiers to commit numerous crimes. The Mormons had many friends among the Missourians, but their military operations undercut their support in the non-Mormon community" (The 1838 Mormon War in Missouri, p.4).

Our nation has a long history of religiously motivated violence, insurgency, and revolts. The newest members in our society - muslims - are following a path and history that has repeated multiple times in this nation by all immigrants. Not once has our nation been overwhelmed or undone. Certainly the muslim community is not nearly as well organized as the Mormons were in the 1800's, nor do they speak with such a singular voice as the Latter Day Saints. Today Mormons are peaceful people and good neighbors despite the conflicts that erupted throughout their history; conflicts driven primarily by mistrust and the fear that they wanted to take over.

I do not support the criminal activity of the men in Dearborn, but I refuse to acknowledge the incident as indicative of some existential threat to our nation that is posed by an entire ethnic group. It is merely the history of immigration and the struggle for acceptance repeating itself. We certainly must act against this criminality and remain vigilant to threats, but we should never exaggerate the importance of it as an excuse to further the mistrust of an entire ethnic group. With a little trust and understanding, muslim Americans will prove to be our best defence against extremism, but only if we do not make all of them our enemies for the crimes of the misguided few. The vast majority of muslims in America want to be Americans for America's sake. We should not paint them with so broad a brush or we risk creating a rift that will take generations to heal.

Humbly I want to say that the word jihad comes from Jayhade which means to strive for (for goodness of character starting self rectification). A good person can only be a good Muslim is one of the teachings of Islam. The Quran dates back to Muhammad (sawaws) when he was trying to spread teachings of the religion. Most of the aggression dates back to that era in context of wars he (sawaws) fought, which were also mainly to safeguard his (sawaws) right to practice religion upon faced by cruelty of non-believers of that time.

In the present world Muslim is only permitted fight for the space or country he freely practices his believes of the religion, nothing more nothing less. The most he is allowed to say is right (logically\unbiased) from wrong if there is any.

Yes, these few sayings of Quran have been hugely misunderstood by some of the illiterate Muslims. Islam says killing of one human being is the killing of all humanity and one is not a Muslim thereafter.

Islam is not a zero tolerance religion, if we take a look at the prayer style, all the Muslims stand together on one line side to side each other regardless of wealth, class, color, language and culture. It teaches at that very moment to tolerate each other.

Yes, illiterate Muslims are abundant sad fully but it is not the right picture of Islam presented.

Well said, Radagast. I would add that those who invoke the rhetoric of fear only betray their own sense of weakness and inadequacy.

America is strong and is made stronger and better by all forms of diversity.

radagast,

I was about to respond but you covered most of it for me.

Fear is the problem period. Like I said I live near the most heavily populated muslim area out side of the middle east period. I am not afraid of muslims, it's strange how people with no daily interaction with someone can be so fearful of them.

Islamic way of life is not one I would ever choose, however I am not going to be scared of it or tell someone not to practice it either.

Your all going to die somehow, quit worrying about the who, where, what, when, and why involved with it. There are crazy people everywhere. More of you will die from cancer than a terrorist attack. I don't see a bunch of posts denouncing mutated genes.

Anyone see any Muslims happy about Bin Laden being taken out? I've seen a lot of protest,but no rallies supporting his demise. This strikes me as being curious, after all didn't he hi-jack your religion. Look at Pakistan's reaction you know our Allie the one we give 3 billion dollars too. So where are those rallies the jubilation .

lalalalalaaaa,

Explain the following to me, and do not start with the personal character attacks (meaning that you do not know squat) and do not even start with the stuff in the Bible from centuries ago unless you are saying that Islam is stuck in the Middle Ages or BC:

Just some of the things that I have been involved with since the 1980s at the Middle East (languages learned Farsi, immersion with Kurdistanis; Arabic at US, Egypt College, immersion at Egypt; Islam, College at Egypt):

1. The Muslim Brotherhood's, Arab World, Islamic World's Alliance since 1933, with Hitler, with the Mutual Goal of getting the British out of the Middle East, and the extermination of the Jews. Why did I have to learn at Egypt as Mandatory College Curriculum "Mein Kampf" and "Protocols of the Wise Elders of Zion"; as the only thing I went there for is College Level Language (Arabic) and Islam (Rhetorical Question, as the Arabs and Islam were Allied to Hitler since 1933).

2. Why don't the Islamic Believers (aka Muslims) denounce the 109 Suras of the 114 Suras of the Holy Koran (Quran) that Call All Islamic Believers to War Against the Christians, Jews, Unbeliever (everyone else, yes that includes you atheists) for the Death Penalty Crimes Against Allah and His Prophet as reinforced by the Current Islamic Laws.

3. How about explaining why to Islamic Believers that Islam Is ALL and not the limiting Western Label of "Religion". All Politics, All Religion, All Laws, All Ways of Life, All Culture, All Beliefs, etc. that supersede the politics, religions, laws, ways of life, cultures, beliefs, etc. of all nations as enforced by the Current Islamic Laws.

4. Why if Islam is "Peaceful" are the 1.5 Billion Islamic Believers Worldwide funding thru Mandatory Islamic Tithes (Political Endorsements, Monetary, Legalization of "Terrorist" Organizations, Sanctuary/Refuge, and when they have nothing else to give they join the Jihad):

a. The Worldwide Islamic Military (aka Jihadists, Terrorists) consisting of the Al Quada International Franchise (AQ, AQIM, AQY, AQS, AQI, AQ, AQAP, etc.), Hamas Foreign Fighters (including at Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay and Mexico), Chechen Foreign Fighters, Fundamentalist Islamic Iran, Army of Islam (Gaza), Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban (Afghanistan), Hezbollah, Pakistanis Taliban, Army of Islam (Pakistan), Kurdistanis PKK HPG KGK, Muslim Brotherhood, Jemaah Islamiya, Abu Sayyaf Group, Ansar al Islam, and Ansar al Sunna, Moro Islamic Liberation Front, Fatah al Islam, Hizb e Islami Gulbuddin, Hizb e Islami Khalis, Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (aka Libyan "Rebels", same people killing US Military at Iraq), etc..

b. The Worldwide Islamic Law Enforcement (aka Mandatory Islamic Tithe Collectors, "Death Squads"). Normally, recruited and organized by the Imams at the local Mosques or Islamic Properties). Responsible for Enforcing Islamic Laws (Hadith Laws, Fiqh Laws, Sharia Laws, etc.). examples: Elimination for Death Penalty Crimes Against Allah and His Prophet of Seattle Woman (now in hiding, warned by FBI), Danish Cartoonist, Iranian Lawyer in hiding with family at Norway, Salmon Rushdie, Pastor at Florida (warned by FBI), etc..

And do not say you did not know, just like the NAZIs did not know about Dachau, Auschwitz, or the Brigade of Elite Muslim SS at Germany responsible for the rounding up of Jews after 1933 (Arabs, Muslim Brotherhood, Islamic World allied to Hitler) to be sent to the "Work Camps" (Concentration Camps).

5. And the Greatest Human Tragedy to date. Why are the Arabic Omani Muslims massacring the "Peaceful Moderate" African Islamic Believers as "Kaffir" (The Islamic "N" Word), hundreds per day, millions to date. This is a Rhetorical Question also, they are massacring (literally chopping to pieces) the "Peaceful Moderate" African Islamic Believers to set the example Worldwide to all Islamic Believers that if you do not participate in the Islamic War Against the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers that is what happens to you. As the Peaceful Moderate Islamic Believers refuse to attack the African Christians at Southern Sudan (Darfur). And do NOT even say that I do not know what I am talking about as I (my men, women) were there as part of a United Nations and African Union (UA) Mission.

6. Also explain to me why the English versions (translations) of the Holy Koran (Quran) are so unlike the Arabic Unabridged Holy Koran (Quran) and leaves out entire paragraphs, the harsh (violent) wording, all the anti Christian and Jew sentences, etc. as the Arabic Unabridged Holy Koran (Quran) is the basis (Legal Precedent) for the current Islamic Laws.

There are many more questions, since you "studied" (not lived with Islam, at Islamic Nations) and know it all.

Yeah--but I bet they don't send a suicide bomber to your house if you refuse to believe.

saeed

You call illiterate people to justify their actions, however you call Egyptians well educated people and they are killing Christians in the name of Alla.

Oskar

I call illiterate people to stop distorting and portraying wrong image of the religion by being involved in such ugly acts of violence.

And they have no right to the killing of Christians in the name of Allah as much as to be Muslim, that being said, they are immoral human beings too.

Killing of one human is killing of all humanity.

Sb.Saeed1 - And they have no right to the killing of Christians in the name of Allah as much as to be Muslim, that being said, they are immoral human beings too.

Really? From my Unabridged Arabic Holy Koran (Quran), the Death Penalty Crime Against Allah and His Prophet as enforced by the Current Islamic Laws (part of the 109 Suras of the 114 Suras of the Holy Koran (Quran) that Calls All Islamic Believers to War Against the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers (everyone else) as not to get this "Out of Context":

Sura 9.29. Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection (Believe In Islam, subjugation to Islam as a Muslim).

Sura 9.30. And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

Sura 9.31. They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium (Mary) and they were enjoined that they should serve one God only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him).

Sura 9.32. They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths, and Allah will not consent save to perfect His light, though the unbelievers are averse.

Sura 9.33. He it is Who sent His Apostle with guidance and the religion of truth, that He might cause it to prevail over all religions, though the polytheists may be averse.

Sura 9.123. O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

That acceptance of the "People of the Book" is a bunch of ريدن ، گه ، ان ، عن

Mike-416

FedupwithFed

em0199

The rest of the world DOES NOT believe in Christ.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/beliefnet_poll_010718.html

Eighty-three percent of Americans identify themselves as Christians.

Learn to read.

Something about that 83% bother you Mike?

Fed:

I don't doubt that a high percentage of Americans claim to be "Christian"

Does the poll take into account the many of those "Christians", who are hypocrites? I'm talking about the ones that don't follow exactly what Jesus preached, but follow the words/practices set forth by religious leaders(humans). Let's also include the ones that pick and choose which teachings of Jesus to follow.

If you don't follow what Jesus preached(and disregard what you don't fell like following), then you can't really call yourself "Christian"(IMO).

Any rational person should take into account that the bible and ALL holy books, were written by men(sometimes to the exclusion and lesser treatment of women). No one knows for sure what "God" and/or Jesus told people. It's all 2nd/3rd(and so on) hand gossip, if you didn't hear it directly from God or Jesus.

ALL religion is hearsay("believe what I say because God told me, and not you").

The Old Testament of the bible contains as much violent teachings(stoning/killing the unfaithful, disobedient children and adulterers), as the Koran does.

Most Christians don't follow what the OT preaches(most don't even follow the New Testament of the bible to the letter).

I'm sure a large percentage of Muslims don't follow the Koran to the letter, either.

The Muslims I have known, have assimilated into the US way of life, and aren't trying to convert anyone. They just want to be prosperous, and raise healthy families.

If you are overtly hostile to ALL Muslims, just because of the actions of a small minority, then yes, your actions might be based on bigotry.

Unfortunately, it's the nature of humans(at least the ones who don't think things through, and treat others like they want to be treated) to fear/not trust those who are different from themselves(color/nationality/religion/culture).

Blaming/accusing ALL Muslims of always lying to or trying to subvert non-Muslims, is as bad as blacks/native Americans blaming ALL white people for the atrocities and bad treatment of them in the past.

We have enough people who hate others here in the US. I don't see many of you going after the non Muslim ones. It's far easier to pick on those who are the least like you are, isn't it?

Come my atheist bretheren! Destroy all who would believe in their invisible sky kings! Religion is the way of unevolved mammals who merely breed warriors for their cause. This disease cannot be permitted to go forth.

/sarc off

Christians wage their war through polotics and power; Muslims wage their war through bombs and killings (Not to say that the good old IRA hasn't done their share of that sh*t). I say we load all those of "faith" into a f*ckin' rocket and send them to the sun. These j*ckoffs have been corrupting people for thousands of years.

No worries, May 21st is right around the corner. Or was it 2012? What... it was supposed to be 1994... Or was it 1975? (sarcasm, folks)

I believe bottom line that both major religions Christianity and Muslim will assure that war will never stop. I personally believe in God and was raised Christian but as I grew older I realized that these religions are man made to control man. We need to rid ourselves of these crazy religions and realize that God created us all and everything else is BS. As anyone can see from reading this blog, its nothing but hate towards each others different religions. We can debate all day long on each one but you can always come to the conclusion that both have murdered millions over the centuries. Why? Because they each are trying to convert the masses to their religion. BS BS BS, get over it and live a life where one can truly love thy neighbor without bigotry on both sides.

Americanlobo I ran into a couple of Muslim females at the local grocery store struggling to lift a large bottle of water into their car, I asked them if they needed help and you would of thought i was attacking them, I also work at a University where we have foreign students from that part of the world they stick to themselves.Jen the bible says no man knows the time or the day, no sarcasm!

You distort the Qu'ran by taking passages out of context (sort of like Salafi/Wahabi idiots do) and by giving passages speaking of specific events and circumstances, as in people fighting the Arabians who were attempting to eradicate Islam some modern world wide meaning. It shows stupidity.

Something that's never sat well with me... let me try and explain. If Allah is God, and God is all-knowing, wouldn't it be fair to assume that God should know how humans would interrupt and understand sentences?

If he didn't mean "slay them where ever ye find them....", then why wouldn't he have worded it in the way that he meant?

That said, I don't know much about Islam, at least as much as I'd like to know... The statements above apply to the Bible as well.

If any of these "Gods" were actually omnipotent, would any of this even be going on right now? No.

Man was granted free will, but the time will come when all will be straightened out

@FedupwithFred

Abraham did NOT practice Islam

Abraham was a devoutly religious man... recall Ishmael, his first born son was at least 13 years old when Issac was born. And Abraham being obedient to God certainly taught his son Ishmael to love and obey that same God. So years later when Ishmael was forced to flee to the deserts of what is now called Saudi Arabian, he took the religion of his father Abraham with him, that religion, in its purest form, was Islam.

If you put aside your prejudice to Islam for a second and look at its history you'll find that Islam has the same first 5 books of the bible written by Moses. The principle theological difference is that in Islam they believe Jesus was a Prophet, and not actually God in the flesh, or the literal Son of God.

It's been some years since I read the New Testament, but if memory serve me correctly Jesus never claimed to be God... and all the passages bestowing God-like divinity upon him are always written by someone else.

Next if you study the laws in Leviticus of the old testament you'll find many of them are very similar to Sharia Law. While some current fundamentalist Islamist are certainly radical, the same can be said of Christians... lets not forget that America openly gave religious overtures to the Iraq war as being Gods war or that God was on America's side...sounds to me like a Jihad :)

Oh and BTW I'm not a Muslim, nor a Christian... I'm firmly in the undecided camp.

I'm just pointing out that Christians and Muslim are brothers that have traveled seperate paths.

wow I quess I really hit a cord...just got home from work..I happen to be a nurse on a mIlitary base...glad it is friday...

any way this is my response to Black Kettle......Unfortunatly our, meaning Americans, exposure and lesson of how Islam operates was announced to us on Sept 11th 2001.......and for those of us who lost loved ones...there is no other way to look at Islam rather then a hate filled people who hate non-muslums and their great mission is to either convert or destroy all non-muslums. That is not what we wanted to see , that is not what we dreamed to see, that is not something we made up. and it is NOT something we asked for of deserved..that was a blatant-in our face EVIL mass murder by 19 plus Muslums who want to kill the infidels.And I do nOT see any Muslums standing up against the murders and the bombings and the be-headings.so why are you defending this hate filled Relgion??????

And to lalalallalalala,

It does not matter that the quaran mentions Jesus and that he is respected...Satan also knows who Jesus is and believes in him and he respects him to the point that he is scared of the son of God for all power in heaven and earth has been given to Jesus.For one to say they know who Jesus is and they respect him as a relgious fiqure and then goes out and murders thousands of innocent folks on a beautiful sept morning is like Charles Manson saying he has read and studied Buddism before he and his pack of loons set out to murder Sharon Tate.......it means NOTHING.

@beanne

America is murdering people everyday in Iraq and Afghanistan, many of them innocent civilians. Yes 9/11 was a terrible event we lost some 3,000 innocent lives... but since that time we've lost another 4452 in Iraq and 1571 in Afghanistan...that's another 6,000+ people...when is enough enough? Or are we now a hate filled people who hate non-Christians and our great mission is to either convert or destroy all non-Christians?

Bobby: the largest community of Islam outside of the middle east is Indonesia not Dearborn, MI.

Greg most Muslims in Afghanistan were happy that we released them from the Taliban repressive rule,same goes for the Shiites of Iraq from their Sunni rulers, don't forget we stopped the genocide of Muslims in Bosnia, for that matter why do you reside in the US. How do you feel about the demise of Bin Laden?

Wow, I am embarrassed to be associated with some of your so-called "Christians" . . . talk about a group of people who quote the Bible and completely FAIL at comprehending it. Seriously, what is wrong with you people?

Jesus forgave the people who were killing him, WHILE THEY WERE KILLING HIM. And yet you "Christians" today are completely filled with hate, anger and rage.

I guess Gandhi was right: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are nothing like your Christ." (Read that again Fed, YOU are exactly the type of person he is talking about)

@wlee-950886

It's must be so nice to view yourself as a liberator, of course, never mind that Iraq didn't attack us on 9/11, or that the Iraqis people didn't ask to be liberated.

It makes me wonder why haven't we liberated the poor people being murdered by the thousands in the Sudan and Dafur, oh that's right there's not any oil there.

ternan,

Your right however you are comparing an entire country, to a city that is only 24 square miles, and contains over 40,000 Muslims. Let me phrase this different, the largest concentration of Muslims outside the middle east. Which ironically was taken over last year by Paris.

David-475776

Please refer to my previous post too. The word ‘Fight’ was a revelation to Muhammad (sawaws) in his (sawaws) old time of dark ages while fighting wars for the right of his (sawaws) freedom of belief. Yes they could have sorted out issues by talking over but then that was the way. The context in which Quran uses this word more is, fight for betterment of your faith, fight to restrain yourself from forbidden things, and hence fight to be a better human being which is a better Muslim.

What needs to be understood, especially by today’s Muslim, is that we are not living in the age of Muhammad (sawaws). This was elaborated afterwards by Quran in the same Sura 109 (Al-Kafirun) that;

‘Prophet (sawaws), say to the non-believers. The (stones/gods) you worship, I do not. And the (Allah) I worship, you do not. And who you worship, I am not among to worship them. And not you will (be going to) worship who I worship. (So) you be on your religion and I be on mine.’ (Al-Kafirun, Sura 109).

Now it is clear to every Muslim that we are not to intervene in any belonging of belief hereafter but to worship our one Allah.

We believe Allah is the creator of haven, hell, Earth and everything contained within. He is the most gracious yet on the far end very unforgiving. He loves his creations more than Seventy times a mother can love her child. If a child disobeys his mother he is grounded and if wrong doing is greater spanked. Sura 9.31 is His way of saying yet there is no order to Muslims in it. Further if there is a son of Allah, then he is a god too which in turn defies the oneness of Allah.

To us all the prophets were great models and teachers to how to spend our lives. We respect all of them very much. This literacy is crucial for everyone.

wlee:

I've seen many non-Muslim women being overly cautious or suspicious of strange men offering help. That's just being careful. There are lots of predators out their, and/or sleazeballs just trying to pickup on women.

Can you blame those Muslim women for not trusting your motives? I don't.

Plenty of born/raised non-Muslim American women won't give an average Joe the time of day. It's called being stuck up. All cultures have those types of people(but I don't doubt that the US is at the top of the list for people with attitudes, IMO).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErzxOz3Dzv8&feature=player_embedded#at=194

Shariamerica: Islam, Obama, and the Establishment Clause

I see you couldn't answer Greg, you know, how you feel about the demise of UBL. Some of you, like Greg, seem to have some bullheaded ignorance streaming from you. Either that or you are doing your best to be good Muslims! The majority of Americans don't want this corruption here! Why? Because it has corrupted the rest of our world plenty all ready.

After all this he said/she said, the primary questions relevant to the article remain unanswered:

1. “Would a KKK member be given a platform by the college to talk about his/her view on African Americans in America?”

2. “Would a member of the neo-Nazi movement be given a platform to share theories on Jews in America?”

Please 'Free Speechers' answer or risk being considered hypocrites.

AND apropos, Christians here is your Uber-Christian Mighty Warrior Hitler :

As the 'The Weapon of Lord's Retribution" Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf:

"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." In 1938, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech.

In a speech delivered April 12, 1922, published in "My New Order," (Think New World Order!) Hitler says, pointing to the Lord as a fighter(Think blood and guts!) :

My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

Further, Hitler now enthused by his Christian love for his LORD follows through, referencing The Holy Bible:

In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

Hitler understands with his deepest heartfelt emotion the reason why The Lord Jesus Christ shed his blood upon the Cross:

Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.

Hitler realises his duty to wield the Christian Sword and fight alongside his Lord to slaughter minorities for truth and justice:

As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice . . .

Hitler, as with most Christians, is self-righteous:

And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.

"Vengence is Mine" Saith the Lord. And Hitler becomes the Lord's Instrument, the 'Lords Weapon of Vengence':

When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.""

MUSLIMS ARE THE NEW JEWS!!!

Yawn, only someone with an agenda would suggest Hitler was a Christian...Not that there isn't one, but has anyone seen a picture of him in church worshiping?

Nice peaceful folk. Look at Europe and you are seeing America in 50 years. They are breeding at a rate that will represent the biggest immigration debate in world history. Glad to be older, for the generation y's are in for a very different world than I know or lived in.

For those Muslim excuse makers, all you need to know about Muslims is how they treat their females worldwide, case closed. The truth is you detest women, and denegrate and discount them on a daily basis. Take your "religion" and stick it, I see it for what it is, a desperate religion based on living in the past, where men rule, and females pander.

ChristopherWorth...The problem with some in the Muslim faith is that they are not satisfied with keeping their religion to themselves. They want to convert, convert, convert. Religions that do this are force feeding their wills on others.

When people come to the US today, it isn't enough for them to practice their religion freely. They demand others convert to their ways of thinking. That isn't going to happen now or ever. Not for those of us born in the USA. I love my country, my freedoms and my rights. The conflict today is attempting to reinvent 230 plus years of Americans born in this country and no other.

If these people are so intent on making life as miserable for others as they do for themselves, they can do it in their "old country" not here. This is America now and forever. Love it or leave it as the saying goes.

ewent.........I usually disagree with your posts but I am with you on this one all the way. Good post!

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you" - Bible

freedman...It's been my experience that those who have the most "unsettled" consciences do one of 2 things...bash any other religion to exact some self-satifaction for their own lack of righteous conscience or else they go to the extreme and thump Bibles, preach like magpies or else are desperate to convert.

The establishment of religion from its earliest history was never intended to do more than act as a guide to righteousnous and a peaceful conscience. Then, along came the control freaks. And nothing in any religion has been peaceful since.

Mike: That was a pretty silly comment on your part. Are you allegeding that all catholics have sexually abused their children or were you commenting in reference to the 2% of all catholic priests that have been accused of and many found guilty of this abuse?

The 2% of corrupt clergy of the catholic church hardly compares to the estimated 1 billion muslim women abused by the religion they call islam.

Mike-416,

You might need counseling. Take it easy on the Catholics. Yes a few priests were sick, perverted child molesters, but not a rate higher than anywhere else in our society! Do you hate teachers too? There are many examples of teachers that had taken advantage of their position of trust and molested children. So have many other groups. If you've watched NBC's to catch a predator you can see the perverts are from all walks of life and at the same ratio of the population! At least Catholics are not recruiting young people to attack others through suicide bombing. That is where we need to focus our attention: at the problem, working for a solution and not just spewing hate. As many religions would say, "hate begets hate."

Hmmm, that sounds likely to me as well ewent.

So when I witness someone spewing hatred about the religion of another - it's because they themselves are not at peace...

There is another bible verse that might also enter into play, especially concerning proselytizing:

let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

freedman...Even if Moses had not come across the Ten Commandment, the human conscience rarely allows heinous acts to go without judgement. This, of course, excludes those with diminished mental capacities who don't have control over their faculties.

When it comes to Middle Eastern men, they are going through a bitter form of culture shock. Inside themselves they know what their consciences tell them. They are caught between having to weigh that against what their religious leaders preach.

In my view, that's got to be a huge internal battle. The modern world is not going to go backward for any religion. When you consider the brazen act of King Henry the XIII in creating his own Church of England so he could marry Anne Boleyn, you see the immediate hypocrisy in allowing mere mortals such levels of credibility.

At least Jewish people don't explode all over the place.

Why do all the worlds thugs move to America?

Rick D. ...No Jewish people don't. But they've had 5,000 years plus of struggle and slavery from their earliest history. They are a shining example of how to assimilate and still keep their cultural identity and religion.

@ ewent - you are interesting

In response to your statement, "The problem with some in the Muslim faith is that they are not satisfied with keeping their religion to themselves. They want to convert, convert, convert. Religions that do this are force feeding their wills on others.", I want to point out how narrow minded and ridiculous I think you are. I want to point out the fact that I have never ever had anyone of the Muslim or Jewish faiths approach me about converting, but it is an on-going problem I have with Christians knocking on my door looking to "save" me. Furthermore, I want to respond to your claim that some Muslims are "force feeding wills on others" with the declaration that as a non-christian (at least in the traditional sense), this is how I largely view the actions of Christians. I look around me and see the Christian faith attempting to control all aspects of society from passing/maintaining laws that are rooted in their religious beliefs to dictating who our elected officials will be. (Maybe this is a by-product of living in the South).

But, then, you go and make this statement: "The establishment of religion from its earliest history was never intended to do more than act as a guide to righteousnous and a peaceful conscience." You just eloquently summed up the root of my "spiritual" beliefs. As I said, I cannot in good faith call myself a "Christian" (though I am definitely influenced by my Christian upbringing) because I do not believe christianity is the only path to salvation. I believe that in the end it is not what is in ones head (beliefs) that matters, but what is in your heart and how you live your life. I think God (and yes, I do believe in God!) gave man many different religions so that we can each find the one to use as our guide through life that makes the most sense to us based on our personal interpretations of the world around us.

As for me, I'm much more worried about all those Episcopalian Terrorists than I am about the four or five Muslim Jihadists that we believe do exist.

Peechy Rose...I live in NJ. Come to Jersey and you will see the number of public billboards "inviting" others to join Muslims in the practice of their faith. How narrow is your mind?

I won't dignify your post with a further response. To do so gives a monumental credibility it doesn't deserve. By the way, reading comprehension problem? It's obvious you are Muslim. God Bless.

However, if you choose to wear your burqua and hajib fine. I am not going to do the same. If the men of your religion are so sexually sensitive to the sight of hair on a woman's head, perhaps you'd do well to "serve your master" more often. How Muslim women can be so obtuse as to "obey" any man is hideous oppression. No man is owed obedience by his partner who is supposed to be his equal.

Any woman who in 2011 who walks around with only her eyes visible in a black funeral shroud is an idiot. It is time you Muslim women woke up to life as it exists now...not 5,000 years ago. Enough with the BS anti-Christianity nonsense. There's a huge difference between faith and religion. One is spiritual, the other is man made. And I've yet to find a single human being, you included, without flaw. As such, no human can be trusted to preach to others.

Holiness doesn't come from praying 5 times a day, turning toward Mecca or abstaining from pork. It comes from tolerance, wisdom and a sense of morality and righteousnous for decency and humanity. Put that one in a hookah and smoke it.

Mike416, only a complete buffoon could corelate the "pedophilia" problem within the Catholic Church to Islamic domination of hundreds of millions of females worldwide over 1500 years. Keeping them second class even to this day. Sell stupid somewhere else were all full up on here Mike.

I'm no fan of the Catholic Church, but your comparison is like comparing an orange to the sun. Doesn't compute sir.

Peachy Rose: Exactly right on. Christians are the ones who prosteletyze--You don't see other religious groups questioning whether the President is "Christian" enough, or whether any Presidential candidate is "Christian" enough, or calling it "politcal correctness" if any religion other than Christianity is aknowledged in any public setting. You don't see other religions insisting on teaching their dogma in school curriculum and insisting it's just "a guide" . Christians are for "integration" into society and inclusion of all beliefs???What hypocrasy and ignorance!

I'm much more worried about right wing christian hyper-conservatives trying to force their views of morality on the rest of society, trying to refine rape so that victims of this heinous crime cannot get access to health care and an abortion if they should become pregnant as a result of being assaulted, trying to make it necessary that a rape victim would have to submit to what is virtually an inquisition by the IRS (!!??) to "prove" that she had been raped. Disgusting, already being proposed and voted on in our very congressional halls, and much more worrisome than any invented threat from islamic sharia.

The day that there is a congressional vote in favor of an islamic sharia based legal proposal, then we'll talk, until then, get your "christian sharia" out of my life, or as my female freinds like say, get your Boehner out of my uterus.

Freedman:

Your grasp of theology is about as flimsy as your grasp on reality.

We'll start simple, okay?

Explain this verse:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Just explain, in your own, feeble words, exactly how this relates to the 'no compulsion' passage.

This should be fun...

MikeyMike...I agree. The righties are the worst bunch of control freaks going. Their way or the highway. They don't earn that right. They take it. Most of the righties are bossy, arrogant, overbearing fools with narrow minds. I find nothing of value in that extremist ideology. It's as fanatical as religious fanatics.

JCB-1236504 - Nice peaceful folk. Look at Europe and you are seeing America in 50 years

Some references for you:

'Islamization' of Paris a Warning to the West

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2010/August/Islamization-of-Paris-a-Warning-to-the-West/

Islam In Norway: Bullying Kids For Being Blond; Children Threatened If They Bring Salami To School

http://bigpeace.com/nmay/2011/03/25/islam-in-norway-bullying-kids-for-being-blond-children-threatened-if-they-bring-salami-to-school/

'Islam is regarded as the biggest threat to Europe for many Europeans'

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41534380/ns/world_news-europe

Islamic court: OK to beat wife if no marks left

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39718046

'London Taliban' target women, homosexuals

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/london-taliban-target-women-homosexuals/777724/

Swedes shocked by first terror attack in 3 decades

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40631647/ns/world_news-europe

In our country we have the right of freedom of speech, and Raymond Ibrahim has the right to do so; now Muslims want to do here what they do in their own countries, they want to take over this right. The so called Muslim civil right group who want to cancel the event should look into themselves and see how under their religion they violate human rights, woman rights and gay rights The supremacy of this religion is intolerant and our laws must prevail.

To answere a few misconceptions:

1 Jihad this is broken basically into two parts the Greater Jihad and the Lesser Jihad. The Greater Jihad and the one that is the most important is the Jihad that goes on in one own soul. The Greater Jihad is suppose to be used so that a person can confront and defeat there inner demonds and thoughts that keep them from being Just and Fair to themselves and all of God's creations. The Lesser Jihad is when we go to war to defend people being Oppressed weather that Oppression is religous or secular.

As far as Islam trying to get others to belive in Islam is concerned, such a position is forbiddon in Islam Allah says in the Quran

Surah Baqara 2 :256 There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

Which means basically if you beleve in God you have done all that is required, he does not say that you must believe in Islam only.

Lastly as far as how women are treated. Do not get the religion confussed with the culture of a given people. What you see in how women are treated by in large are the customs and triditions and cultures of certain people, which have nothing to do with what Allah has dictated as to Rights and Treatment of Women in Islam. THe religion advocates in the equallity of women. We are all equal in Gods eyes.

Listen to all this garbage. People complaining about the "right" the "left", Jews. Christians, Muslims. what a joke. Imagine how peaceful the world would be without any of them.

Oh yeah humans for the most part are complete idiots, so we would find something else to complain about.

Everyone take a minute to realize there should not even be life on this planet. Your all lucky to be here start acting like it.

Harry

You can say whatever you want about Islam , but the reality is Muslims are a problem, here and Europe or in any other western country, because they have a problem of adaptation and they are not tolerant . They don’t share our culture, values and way of life and that ostracize this group. As long they don’t embrace our culture when they emigrate to our countries as long they want to impose their way of live even is against ours always will be a clash, and this is a big problem .

Well I guess one advantage of living in America, I do not think there is a such a thing as American Culture. I have been a Muslim for more than 30 years and I have good and close friends of about every kind of religion you can think of. Because I believe you can not force anyone to believe anything, I spend very little time with most of them discussing religion. Most of the foriern born Muslims that I have meet here seem to assimlulate quite easily

A) I agree. We must differentiate between religion and culture. The Quaran, Bible and Tohrah only talked about the need to be good, peaceful and the right of all human being including women.

B) We all should be secular. This should been emphasized before allowing people to immigrate to the US or western countries.

C) There is nothing wrong with Quaran, Bible or Torah. The problem is with the interpretation of each book by men who dictating what they want.

D) Let's say the truth. No muslim or jew ever knocked my door to convert me to either religion. Only members from Christian churches knocked on my door many times to convert to Christianty. Same people are doing the same overseas tryiing to convince people to convert to Christianity as a better religion.

Harry

You can say whatever you want about Islam , but the reality is Muslims are a problem, here and Europe or in any other western country, because they have a problem of adaptation and they are not tolerant . They don’t share our culture, values and way of life and that ostracize this group. As long they don’t embrace our culture when they emigrate to our countries as long they want to impose their way of live even is against ours always will be a clash, and this is a big problem .

Oskar, you need to rethink your statement. It should read "some Arabs" not "muslims". I'm Muslim. I'm Irish, Scottish, English, and Italian. I share "your" culture, "your" values and "your" way of life.

You are confusing culture with religion. What you are saying is true of SOME (not all) arab, persian and south east asian people. What you are saying is NOT TRUE of Islam.

Most westerners who have this distorted view of Islam, do so because of errors in translating the Arabic into other language. How many Islamaphobes reading this post have studied the specific Arabic dialect used in the Qur'an? And then on top of that they have studied Arabic poetry to understand the allegory and rhyming patterns used in the Qur'an (Yes, the Qur'an is one huge poem or song)?

A GREAT example of this mis-interpretation of the arabic is the line that Islamaphobes try to say "The Qur'an says to beat your wife" (Qur'an 4:34).

The word that is being interpreted as meaning "beat" doesn't actually mean "beat" in this context. The word is "driboo" in the phrase "waidriboohunna", is a form of the word "Daraba". If you look up "Daraba" in an arabic dictionary, you will find that one word has around five or six pages of definitions.

Just like, for example in english, the word "hit" has many different meanings. One could say, "I hit the ball". But then one could also say "Hit me up later on my cell". Or one could say, "Wow she is hot, I totally want to hit that." Or to quote Jimi Hendrix "I'm not the only one accused of hit and run, With tire tracks all across your back, I can see you had your fun..."

So did Hendrix really run someone over with his car? But the approach Islamaphobes take to translating the Qur'an, if applied to Hendrix, then the answer would be "YES, Absolutely, It's right there in black and white. You can't deny that he did it."

OK... back to Daraba... So five pages of different definitions of the word that have accumulated as the language progressed over the centuries. One of the definitions is "to beat or hit lightly". But other definitions included "tap", "walk in stride", "strike at something", "set a clear example", "proclaim". There is another use of the word when talking about sex, when used as a reference to sex it literally means "to have sex" or to "mount in a sexual posture" or "to cover or climb on top of, as in a sexual position".

In a lot of ways it's similar to how one might say "she's hot, I wanna hit that." or "I wanna tap that a$$".

There is a great article about this very subject here...

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/articles/women_treatment.htm

Those that are interested in learning the truth will read it and dispell the myths. Those that would rather hate and discriminate, will dismiss it as false and go back to their bigoted ways.

"I came to listen as an opposing view," says a woman who calls herself Sister Mohammed. Mohammed founded the Islamic Resources by Mail, a non-profit that provides Muslims with information on mosques and schools, Islamic materials, halal foods and other needs. "My main concern is whether this person is trying to deprogram Muslims."

Ok first of all the Women making this comment is the one picture covered head to toe in black. You don't see anything but a black outline, no face, no personality, no anything. You will never convince me that living completely covered is a life. Sorry I'm not buying any part of it. Life is the most precious thing on earth and its not meant to be hidden on any level.

So am I to believe this religion is anything other then an excuse to steal peoples rights? Sorry I dont! Call me whatever you want, guilty as charged!

ALL religion is hearsay("believe what I say because God told me, and not you").

The Old Testament of the bible contains as much violent teachings(stoning/killing the unfaithful, disobedient children and adulterers), as the Koran does.

Most Christians don't follow what the OT preaches(most don't even follow the New Testament of the bible to the letter).

I'm sure a large percentage of Muslims don't follow the Koran to the letter, either.

The Muslims I have known, have assimilated into the US way of life, and aren't trying to convert anyone. They just want to be prosperous, and raise healthy families.

If you are overtly hostile to ALL Muslims, just because of the actions of a small minority, then yes, your actions might be based on bigotry.

Unfortunately, it's the nature of humans(at least the ones who don't think things through, and treat others like they want to be treated) to fear/not trust those who are different from themselves(color/nationality/religion/culture).

Blaming/accusing ALL Muslims of always lying to or trying to subvert non-Muslims, is as bad as blacks/native Americans blaming ALL white people for the atrocities and bad treatment of them in the past.

We have enough people who hate others here in the US. I don't see many of you going after the non Muslim ones. It's far easier to pick on those who are the least like you are, isn't it?

Ewent:

I agree with you on many occasions, however, many non-Muslim religious groups are out trying to convert others to their religious beliefs(Scientologists/Mormons/Jehovah's Witnesses, to name a few).

If it's good for the goose.............

I think it should be illegal for ANY person of ANY religion to try and push their beliefs on to others.

And it's long past the time that our government should have stopped giving religious organizations tax free status.

This entire issue has been complicated by the few who want to distort the truth from being known. The followers of islam claim that they are not a violent people. They also claim that islam does not promote violence. To find out the truth for yourself, all you need to do is examine the sources. Here are the facts about islam that every non muslims must understand. Before you start protesting what I'm about to present, I strongly suggest that you verify what I'm stating for yourself to see that I'm not fabricating anything.

1. islam promotes violence against non muslims. There are over 100 verses in the koran which command the killing of infidels (non muslims). These are crystal clear verses that state that anybody who refuses to submit to islam must be killed.

2. muslims are commanded to dominate the entire world by any means available to them. Using violence is just a tool to them. Nothing more.

3. muslims are commanded to lie in order to promote their religion. This doctrine is called "taqiyya". Muslims can look at non muslims and openly declare that they renounce islam. They can spit on the koran. They can curse the name of allah, BUT, as long as they believe in their hearts that they are muslims then they have not commited any wrong doing according to islam. Deception is mandatory to deceive the enemies of islam. The "prophet" muhammad used such deception numerous times to murder innocent people. Nothing a muslim says can be trusted regardless of how sincere they appear to be.

4. islam hates the western world not because of what we have done but rather because they are commanded to hate us. Islam hates freedom. It hates our way of life. It hates the fact that we can choose for ourselves. It hates the idea that we can worship how and what we choose. It hates us for the simple reason that allah commands muslims to hate us.

5. Islam is the most hate filled, murderous, lie infested, deceptive religion in the history of humanity. You don't believe this? Just look at how muslims in muslim nations treat non muslims. Children who are non muslims are murdered by beheading.

6. Mosques are to be used as staging areas for attacks on non muslims. The mosque serves three purposes.

A. It's a house of worship.

B. It's a house of government. Any time you see a mosque in any city or neighborhood it represents dominance. To muslims, it's a sign of victory over the people in that area. Mosques are to be used as a parliament to make laws in order to rule over the people.

C. It's a house of war. Muslims have abused the laws of every nation in order to abuse the system. Due to laws that state no house of "worship" may be investigated by police or searched at any time, muslims have used this to their advantage. They are permitted to store weapons in the mosque to be used for attacks on non muslims. Keep this in mind the next time you drive past a mosque. It can in fact be an armory which houses chemical or even nuclear weapons and nobody is permitted to search it.

For any muslim to claim that they are a "peaceful" religion is a lie based on satanic principles. The koran states that the entire world must bow to islam and for muslims, it's unthinkable that this should not happen. For islam to use violence against the non muslim world is required in order to fulfill this commandment. There is no such thing as an innocent person to islam. You are either a follower of allah or you are a target for death.

Do not be one of the ignorant who relies on opinions from others to make a decision. Use the intelligence you have to investigate the facts for yourself. The next bomb that goes off may be responsible for murdering somebody very close and dear to you. Islam is a cancer which must be removed from society even if it means using force.

Enough is enough. What are you prepared to do about this problem now?

Every religion..no matter whos...uses a book, written by man..not by any God..I have never seen nor heard of any piece written by God...Forcing anyones religion on others is wrong...every book in every Bible is written by man,,with all his or her failings...there is where all our problems lye....

Simon:

I take it you are "Christian".

It's easy to tell, with your post equating Muslims faith being based on "satanic principles".

Just like the bible, the Koran is understood differently by those interpreting it.

"Kill all infidels", can also be interpreted to mean: kill all invaders or defilers of holy places, or kill those who don't believe in God(any God).

It all comes down to interpretation, and how followers want to practice their faith.

Freedman:

Your grasp of theology is about as flimsy as your grasp on reality.

We'll start simple, okay?

Explain this verse:

Quran (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."

Just explain, in your own, feeble words, exactly how this relates to the 'no compulsion' passage.

This should be fun...

Seriously? This one is so easy I'm surprised you haven't already figured it out. OH but wait....

YOU ARE PURPOSELY LEAVING OUT MOST OF THE AYATS!!!!!!! WHAT YOU QUOTED ISN'T 191-193, IT'S THE FIRST HALF OF 191 AND THE FIRST HALF OF 193!!!!!! THAT'S WHY YOU ARE SO CONFUSED!!!!!!

How about you actually QUOTE the Qur'an first, and then we can discuss it?

HERE IS 191-193 for you...

191. And fight those (who fight you) wheresoever you find them, and expel them from the place they had turned you out from. Oppression is worse than killing. Do not fight them by the Holy Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do, then slay them: Such is the requital for unbelievers.

192. But if they desist, God is forgiving and kind.

193. Fight them till sedition comes to end, and the law of God (prevails). If they desist, then cease to be hostile, except against those who oppress.

Qur'an 2:191-193 [Ahmed Ali Translation]

But in reality, you need to start reading BEFORE Ayat 191 to get the full understanding of the passage, which is probably why you left out Ayat 190 on purpose...

190. Fight those in the way of God who fight you, but do not be aggressive: God does not like aggressors.

Qur'an 2:190 [Ahmed Ali Translation]

And then you also need to continue reading AFTER ayat 193 to fully understand the passage as well, which is probably why you left out Ayats 194 and 195 too...

 194. (Fighting during) the holy month (if the sanctity) of the holy month (is violated) is (just) retribution. So if you are oppressed, oppress those who oppress you to the same degree, and fear God, and know that God is with those who are pious and follow the right path.

195. Spend in the way of God, and do not seek destruction at your own hands. So do good for God loves those who do good.

Qur'an 2:194-195 [Ahmed Ali Translation]

The truth is right here for you to read. What you are trying to make the Qur'an say is FALSE and you know it. That is why you had to edit out HUGE chunks of it in order to support your spurious claims.

They can melt steel at 1500 degees. I see a Nobel in the future !

"Kill all infidels", can also be interpreted to mean: kill all invaders or defilers of holy places, or kill those who don't believe in God(any God).

It all comes down to interpretation, and how followers want to practice their faith.

Exactly... it it comes down to how non-believers interpret the book of another religion.

Does anyone here realize that the Qur'an NEVER ONES MENTIONS THE WORD "INFIDEL"?

It's not in there. Not once. Do a search of it. The word "infidelity" comes up. No infidel.

The words the Islamaphobes try to say "means" infidel is actually the word for "pagan". How many Christians or Jews here consider themselves pagans?

The Qur'an is constantly referring to the Qureyshi Pagan tribe (sometimes also spelled Quraishi) that ruled Mecca at that time and refers to them as "Pagans" throughout the Qur'an.

Christians and Jews are referred to as "People of the Book". NOT PAGANS. NOT INFIDELS.

Way to go Brother educate the young man. I bet he does not answere your post

American lobo.

Interpreting can be dangerous. You claim that the same can be applied to the bible. Well, if what you are saying is true, please provide facts to support your claims. Where does it say that non christians are to be killed or harmed for that matter?

Anybody who claims to be a christian and harms or kills another non christian is nothing but a criminal/murderer.

There is no interpreting islam. Pick up the koran and just start reading. If you have the intelligence to wave bye-bye then you can understand for yourself what that religion promotes and teaches. Death is a staple of the muslim doctrine. People are caught up with the term "interpret". Seems like it's an easy way out of being responsible for something. There is only truth and lie. Which one do you represent?

@ewent

I believe you are the one with a serious reading comprehension problem here. Or, maybe you just read a few lines and then jumped to your conclusions and fired off a response without any thought given. You need to go back and read my post (post 2.17) word by word, line by line, start to finish.

If you bother to do that, you will see that 1) I agreed with your philosophy (or at least what you presented as your philosophy) and 2) I am most definetly NOT Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, or of any other religion (major or minor). Even in your rant against me here - I agree with your view on religion vs faith.

Simon you are a Ignorant fool who does not know what he is talking about. The same God of the Bible is the God of the Quran. I am willing to bet you have not read an authentic Quran. But probaly some made up version to promote your views. Try reading the Yusf Ali version of the Nobel Quran and then speak.

Do not be one of the ignorant who relies on opinions from others to make a decision. Use the intelligence you have to investigate the facts for yourself.

I suggest you do the same. For example, can you just read this without having to look it up in an online translator? You know, try it in an online translator, and see just how poorly it does.

« الفاتحة »

مكيّة

بِسْمِ ٱللَّهِ ٱلرَّحْمَٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ﴿١﴾

ٱلْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ ٱلْعَٰلَمِينَ ﴿٢﴾

ٱلرَّحْمَٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ﴿٣﴾

مَٰلِكِ يَوْمِ ٱلدِّينِ ﴿٤﴾

إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وَإِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِينُ ﴿٥﴾

ٱهْدِنَا ٱلصِّرَٰطَ ٱلْمُسْتَقِيمَ ﴿٦﴾

صِرَٰطَ ٱلَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ ٱلْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا ٱلضَّآلِّينَ ﴿٧﴾

There is no interpreting islam. Pick up the koran and just start reading.

You couldn't be further from the truth.

First of all, you can't read the Qur'an because you can't read the arabic dialect used in it. In reading an English translation of the Qur'an, you are already reading someone else's INTERPRETATION of what the Arabic means. Read the Forward in any English translation. It will state that it is NOT a translation, but an Interpretation into English because Arabic cannot be directly translated into English the way Spanish, Italian, French, Latin, etc can. It will also say in the forward something to the effect of, "Anything that is construed as good in this Interpretation is from Allah (swt), anything that is or can be construed as bad or negative in this interpretation is from my error, Allah (swt) forgive me."

Second, if there is no interpreting it, then how do you explain all of this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_schools_and_branches

Hanafi

Maliki

Shafi'i

Hanbali

Wahhabi

Salafi

Deobandi

Twelver

Ismaili

Zaidiyyahi

Alawi

Alevi

Qadiri

Bektashi

Chishti

Naqshbandi

Oveyssi

Ahmadiyyahi

Ibadi

ARE ALL DIFFERENT INTERPRETATIONS OF THE QUR'AN AND SUNNAH!!!! Please explain how that is possible then, if there is no interpreting the Qur'an?

Try reading the Yusf Ali version of the Nobel Quran and then speak.

The Yusuf Ali interpretation is good, but my favorite so far is the Ahmed Ali. The Yusuf Ali translation was done in 1938. Ahmed Ali done in 2000. It has a better grasp on some of the more difficult to interpret verses.

When translating from Arabic to English, you either get someone who is more fluent in Qur'anic arabic but not english (like Yusuf Ali). Or someone who is more fluent in English but not Qur'anic Arabic (Like Pickthall). And then you sometimes have people who are fluent in modern Arabic, but not the Arabic dialect used in the Qur'an which can create all sorts of incorrect interpretations. Ahmed Ali, even though he was Indian, he had a pretty good understanding of both languages.

If you haven't read the Ahmed Ali interpretation, you should check it out. Out of all the ones I've read, I like it the most. It's the closest to the tafsirs I've read and to the tafsirs I go and listen to at mosques in my area. And as I learn Tajweed and am starting to understand the Arabic in the Qur'an, Ahmed's interpretation for the most part seems pretty close to what I understand the passages to mean.

Wake up people,

It can't be translated because it is supposed to be written from right to left, unlike English. But I get your point.

Simon, I was raised Christian and that was the most asinine statement in this entire blog. Because of what you said just proves that war between the religions will never end. Granted Islam is taking the cake right now when it comes to violence but we've been there as well. The violence you are reporting that they do is the same thing you are saying to do to them . It makes you no different from the extremists. All religion will bring this world down, maybe with the exception of Buddhism. Lets get rid of them all and anyone wanting to believe in God is fine but keep religion out of it. This is horse$#!t

bedbug: the horrendous truth is that the US has been isolated and protected from the thugs of the world - thank god. Try living in europe were right wing groups and islamic radical groups predominate or Africa where militias and terror groups control every facet of life or Asia where religious and government controlled terror exists. Nope we in the US with all of our warts, pain and trials are still a safe haven.

Wakeup - I have the Queen Noor edition. I think she (being both an American and an Arab) has really tried to build understanding.

For anybody to say that the god of muslims is the same as the God of the Jews & Christians is like saying kosher hogs exist. As I clearly stated at the start of my letter, I challenge everybody to investigate everything I have stated. I openly state that people should research for themselves and find out without relying on somebody elses opinion.
Muslims have been lying about islam from the very start and they must deceive non muslims in order to have some validity.

You twits claim that allah is the same as God? Really? Consider this then.

There is not one verse in the koran to be found where allah states that he loves muslims. In fact, only once does allah say he loves somebody and that is Moses (a JEW). Never, never, ever does allah say he loves muslims or even cares for them.

allah is: scornful, distant, unknownable, vengeful, promotes violence.

God of the bible is: forgiving, close, knowable, caring, wants only peace for our lives.

allah is just a lunatics (muhammad) invention to rule over the simpleminded. allah is as powerful as a dead dog in an empty field. For any muslim to call allah god is proving that they have altered their religion to mislead the uneducated. Read the history of islam for yourselves and ignore what I am saying. No muslim will dare make the same statement. History PROVES who is lying here.

Simon - Islam (which literally translates into 'submission to God') maintains that everybody is born a muslim. It is through life, and deception, and temptation that we lose our way - the way we had as a child. Jesus is a muslim. So is Adam. That's what the idea entails.

"GOD (Allah) is dead but false prophets and pervert clerics feed of His corpse!" - joe

Ewent, I read your post #2.5. Playing word games I understand why people might "possibly" want to come to the U.S. and also why people "possibly"not like the U.S. It looks like in the middle east " Now" people want a "government for the people and by the people" "Birth pangs"

Simon, Simon, Simon.........

You really don't use much logic or common sense, do you?

Yes, it all comes down to interpretation and what you want to choose to believe. Saying it isn't, doesn't make not true.

If you believe there is one "God", then that "God" is the only one for all mankind(no matter what any group chooses to name it).

It's humans that like to claim "their God/Allah" is the true divinity.

Humans are the problem, with all their arguing about who's right and who's wrong. The Great Spirit/God is not the problem. It's the humans that believe the writings of other humans, and choose to interpret the bible/Koran differently, and practice differently.

Why do you think their are so many sects of most religions? There are different "Christian" groups that don't see eye to eye, just as there are different groups of Muslims that don't agree on how to practice religion.

NO ONE KNOWS THE TRUTH. NO LIVING PERSON HAS SPOKEN TO GOD, NOR HAS "GOD" LAID OUT EVERYTHING IN DETAIL OR FULLY EXPLAINED EVERYTHING TO ANYONE.

All knowledge of "God", is NOT first hand info. It's placing trust in the humans who wrote it(who are fallible and prone to trying to control others).

Most humans just can't accept the fact that they DON"T KNOW. It's human nature to want to have knowledge, and some take it too far in trying to lord over others with "knowledge".

Humans are scared of death, and of not really knowing what happens when we die. Therefore, they will believe whatever makes them feel better/sleep at night. Of course religions with the promise of heaven/paradise for all good little girls and boys, are going to be the most popular.

oh and Simon.........

YOU are the one who needs to go back and "investigate" the sources you are quoting from(most of it sounds like it's coming from your own mind).

Maybe an advanced course in reading comprehension is what you should be looking into.

Simon : you said God does not like muslims and there are no proof!!! God said in his Book the Koren : Our prophet Mohammed peace be up on him was send to us as mercy to mandkind. I this this will do may Allah Guide you to the right path.

if you did study Islam and the koren you wouldnt say this! I dont think you understand the importancy of been a Muslim, no body is begging you to convert! it s all up to God! dont worry we are not here to force any one to convert, we're just a messenger here

Simon, go study up on Abraham and the meaning of the phrase Abrahamic faiths, which includes Judaism, Christianity AND Islam.

If there is any monotheistic god in existence at all, then all the names which are used for it/him/her/whatever are all just variations of the same thing. The religious traditions that stem from these variations are myriad, within Christianity, within Judaism, and within Islam, but they all share one claim: There is one and only one god.

If all these groups could simply stop focusing on the things which separate and create differences, catholic vs protestant, reform vs orthodox, shia vs sunni, christian vs jew, jew vs muslim, muslim vs christian... and instead focus on that which is shared, love and support for fellow human beings, then the world would be a better place.

It is in the name of these supposedly loving gods, and for the sake of proving that "my god is the one and only true god" that more violence and harm has been done in the history of the world than for any other reason. When are we going to get past all this?

I for one, do not believe there is any god at all. Yahweh, Allah, Zeus, Apollo, Athena, Poseidon, etc, etc, all myths, all no more real than any others. As a wise poet once wrote,

'Imagine there's no heaven, it isn't hard to do,
nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too,
Imagine all the people, livin' for today...

You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one,
Perhaps one day you'll join us, and the world will be as one'

--John Lennon

Wake up people,

It can't be translated because it is supposed to be written from right to left, unlike English. But I get your point.

It being written from right to left doesn't really make any difference in the translation. In my posting it, Newsvine justified it to the left, but the text is the same as it would appear if it were right justified.

The sentence structure is different, and words in arabic don't have a direct correlation to english. Which is what makes it difficult to translate without interpreting.

So if we look at, say, the last line of arabic I posted.

صِرَٰطَ ٱلَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ ٱلْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا ٱلضَّآلِّينَ ﴿٧﴾

If you were try to use an online translator, here are some of the results you get...

Condition however, those who earn Thine ٱmodob them, nor ٱldhalin (7)

And some won't even do it at all. As you can see there is no "direct" translations into English, so one needs to "interpret" what is meant.

Here's five different "interpretations" of what the line means. As you can see, they all have the same overall meaning, while using different words.

Abdullah Yusuf Ali
 7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.

Ahmed Ali
 7. The path of those You have blessed, Not of those who have earned Your anger, nor those who have gone astray.

George Sale
  7. in the way of those to whom Thou hast been gracious; not of those against whom Thou art incensed, nor of those who go astray.

Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall
 7. The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

Wahiduddin Khan
 7. the path of those You have blessed; not of those who have incurred Your wrath, nor of those who have gone astray.

For anybody to say that the god of muslims is the same as the God of the Jews & Christians is like saying kosher hogs exist. As I clearly stated at the start of my letter, I challenge everybody to investigate everything I have stated. I openly state that people should research for themselves and find out without relying on somebody elses opinion.
Muslims have been lying about islam from the very start and they must deceive non muslims in order to have some validity.

Wrong... Direct quotes from the Qur'an to disprove your statement...

Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered. [Qur'an 2:136]

Say: "Will ye dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that We are sincere (in our faith) in Him?

Or do you claim that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their offspring were Jews or Christians? Say: "Have you more knowledge than Allah?" Who is more wicked than he who conceals the testimony he received from Allah? Allah is not unaware of all you do. [Qur'an 2:139-140]

And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our Allah and your Allah is One, and unto Him we surrender. [Qur'an 29:46]

He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed. [Qur'an 3:7]

And they measure not the power of Allah its true measure when they say: Allah hath naught revealed unto a human being. Say (unto the Jews who speak thus): Who revealed the book which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind, which ye have put on parchments which ye show, but ye hide much (thereof), and (by which) ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it)? Say: Allah. Then leave them to their play of cavilling. [Qur'an 6:91]

There is not one verse in the koran to be found where allah states that he loves muslims. In fact, only once does allah say he loves somebody and that is Moses (a JEW). Never, never, ever does allah say he loves muslims or even cares for them.

Wrong again... direct from the Qur'an...

Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [Qur'an 3:31]

O ye who believe! Whoso of you becometh a renegade from his religion, (know that in his stead) Allah will bring a people whom He loveth and who love Him, humble toward believers, stern toward disbelievers, striving in the way of Allah, and fearing not the blame of any blamer. Such is the grace of Allah which He giveth unto whom He will. Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing. [Qur'an 5:54]

Wakeup - I have the Queen Noor edition. I think she (being both an American and an Arab) has really tried to build understanding.

I have never heard of that one. Do you have a link to it? I'd be interested in checking it out. I tried googling it and could only find her book "Leap of Faith".

WakeUp, nice job on the Qu'ranic exegesis. (Does one still use that word or is there a different word for it?) At any rate, it's great to see someone who knows what they're talking about refute the scripted talking-point blather of the masses.

Thanks! What I also find ironic, is that most of the imams and Islamic scholars I study probably have more of the Bible and Torah memorized than any of these so called "christians" that try to defame Islam. In Islam the Bible and Torah are important. They just aren't AS important as the Qur'an. But that doesn't mean they aren't important to the religion at all. There are two biblical scholars at one of the mosques I go to. They were christian (ministers or priests, not sure which) who converted to Islam. One has his Masters in Bible studies... he then converted to Islam later in life, after he got his degrees. It's really interesting to talk to him because he has the Bible and the Qur'an memorized and is really great at talking about the similarities between the two, as well as the differences.

Really, at least in my opinion, the only people who can honestly talk about a religion are those who have studied it "from the inside". Looking at something and trying to study it as an outsider peering in doesn't give you the same perspective. That's why I have a lot of respect for Karen Armstrong. She left the convent and literally DOVE into Islam. Learning it not as a christian peeking in, but learning it as a muslim learns it. I believe she even went to an Islamic university in the Middle East somewhere. And more recently she has been doing the same thing with Judaism. It's also interesting to read her books, because she looks at Islam the way muslims do, not the way Islamaphobes do.

How many people decide to be astro-physicists and then refuse to go to schools that teach it by teachers who are the world's leading experts? Instead they buy the text books and read them on their own and then try to ascertain what it all means by themselves. And they don't buy the "101" book and start with that, they jump straight to the PhD level textbook, without having taken any of the prerequisites (like Calculus, physics, etc) the textbook already assumes they would know.

This is what people like Robert Spencer and Daniel Pipes (and others) do with Islam. And our "sensationalism" media eats it up and pays them A LOT of money to say these negative things about Islam. It has become their job and their industry. They get paid to hate. And the more they hate, the more money they make. The Rev Terry Jones found out about this cash cow himself. Am I the only one who noticed he went from wearing old clothes when he first announced his original Qur'an burning, to wearing a custom tailored designer suit with designer sunglasses when announcing the mock trial of the Qur'an? Where did he get all that money when his congregation only had 50 followers? Ahhh... media.

I guess it's because I also work in the entertainment industry that I'm aware of this. Nobody realizes that your favorite artist gets paid anywhere from $30,000 to $200,000 to appear on an awards show. That's not to speak or perform, that's just to sit in the audience!! Nobody realizes that publicists PAY TMZ to get their actors/musicians/athletes into TMZ's news stories. Nobody realizes that people get paid (sometimes big money) to appear on radio shows and talk shows. Nobody realizes that even people who are considered public failures like "octomom" make several hundred thousand dollars a year and someone like "kate" from John and Kate plus eight makes several million a year. Media PAYS. Because having someone controversial on your show, brings an audience. And advertisers will pay you HUGE money to advertise while that controversial person is on your show. The controversial person's "spokesperson" (i.e. PR agent/Talent Agent/Manager/Lawyer) knows this, and requires payment based on the person's popularity at the time. Snookie (from the reality show Jersey Shore) was paid $32,000 just to speak at a college graduation ceremony!?!?!?!?!?!!!! So how much do you think someone like Terry Jones or Daniel Pipes charges to speak on a TV show, a radio broadcast or in a printed article/interview? It's not about the religion for them, it's about the money. It is their job and livelihood to disrespect and discriminate.

THAT is why we never see Imams or any muslims for that matter really speaking out. They do all the time but the media outlets don't cover it or air it. Why? Because ther is no controversy in it. An Islamic terrorist being interview, heck everyone will watch that!!! And advertisers will jump all over it paying almost as much for a 30 sec spot as they would for the superbowl! A peaceful muslim cleric talking about what the majority of muslims believe... Zzzzzz.... Boring! nobody will watch that for more than 2 minutes. So there is no advertising revenue for it and stations WILL NOT AIR IT.

Maybe the imans...maybe not...on the other hand...I would suggest the proportion of Christians who have read the Old Testament, not to mention the New, is much higher then the number of Muslims who have read the Koran, much less either of the other two.

Islam as it is preached in the West is totally different from the Arabic version of Islam, most of the translations of the Koran smoothed out the rough edges that you will find in Arabic. For Sunnis, the words of Mohammad is the second reference after the Koran, some of his words encourage Muslims to fight to spread Islam, and in return promise them many sensual rewards in Heaven. Saudi Arabia keeps a web site for all Mohammad's words "The Sunnah" according to the different scholars in Arabic, but if you access the same web site in English you will get a completely different arrangement and you will miss a lot of controversial teachings, available only in Arabic.

Bottom line, unless you understand Arabic you have a sugarcoated version of Islam.

...And if you don't understand English you only get the "sugarcoated" version and you miss out on the wonderful insights that the Westboro Baptist folks have to share which illuminate the loving spirit of true christianity.

Maybe the imans...maybe not...on the other hand...I would suggest the proportion of Christians who have read the Old Testament, not to mention the New, is much higher then the number of Muslims who have read the Koran, much less either of the other two.

LOL, based on what? A Hunch? How many madrassas or mosques have you attended to see what, in fact, muslim children do and do not learn?

I grew up catholic, even went to a catholic grade school. I am now muslim and attend classes at masjids in my area. it is very presumptious of you to think most muslims have never read the Qur'an when the Qur'an itself instructs all muslims to recite it.

Bottom line, unless you understand Arabic you have a sugarcoated version of Islam.

All muslims are strongly encouraged to learn Tajweed, and all kids who go to the Islamic version of sunday school learn Tajweed. look it up. Even my wife and her brothers and sisters, who only speaks english and hindi, had to learn tajweed when they were growing up and can read arabic now, although when asked they will say they don't know arabic, since they do not know modern arabic.

Have you heard about the Muslim children recruited for suicide missions. If yo have not read about it, here is the news as of May 16, 2011.

"CHILD suicide bombers who have been recruited by the Taliban to carry out attacks have been paraded before the media.

They were shown off by Afghan security services in an effort to highlight the boys' plight and turn public opinion against the Taliban.

They included Ghulam Farooq, nine, who left Pakistan with three other boys to meet Taliban members in eastern Afghanistan.

But they were seized by intelligence service officers acting on a tip-off.

Farooq, speaking at a juvenile detention centre in Kabul - where dozens of suspected would-be suicide bombers are held - said: "Our mullah told us that when we carried out our suicide attacks all the people around us would die but we would stay alive."

Latifullah Mashal, a spokesman for the Afghan intelligence service, said: "The Taliban are recruiting children in their ranks and using them to carry out suicide attacks in Afghanistan."

Taliban spokesman Qari Yousef Ahmadi denied the accusation.

He said: "These children have joined the ranks of the enemy on the enemy's luring, taking advantage of their ignorance and lack of knowledge."

Confirmations of child suicide bomber cases are rare and identification of bodies is difficult. However, Mashal insisted more youngsters are being recruited for this purpose.

Farooq claimed he was persuaded by a mullah in a mosque near Peshawar, Pakistan.

He said: "He told us there are infidels in Kabul and we must carry out suicide attacks against them.

"We were taught how to use a suicide vest in the Spin Mosque in Kher Abad, near Peshawar, where we live. I want to go home - I miss my family."

Fazel Rahman, 10, arrested along with Farooq, told of similar events.

He said: "The mullah in the mosque told us the infidels were in Kabul and everyone should go for jihad. Our families don't know where we are."

Wakeup....I really look forward to a factual conversation with you...sometime.

LOL, based on what? A Hunch? How many madrassas or mosques have you attended to see what, in fact, muslim children do and do not learn?

LOL..quite a few...how much time have you spent in Islamic Countries?

it is very presumptious of you to think most muslims have never read the Qur'an when the Qur'an itself instructs all muslims to recite it.

Considering the illiteracy rate amongst Muslims I don't think it's really that "presumptious". Couple that with the fact that Arabic is the recommended, or required, language in which it is to be read...we have quite a large proportion of followers who only hear what they are taught.

So..you are from India...interesting...

I note you don't really refute my point regarding how many Muslims have read either the Old or New Testament..certainly you might be an exception considering you were, according to you, raised a Catholic. What I find most interesting is that you, or your family, fled to a Christian Country only to then reject the system which succors you, for a system which has played havoc in the sub-continent.

Have you heard about the Muslim children recruited for suicide missions. If yo have not read about it, here is the news as of May 16, 2011.

I've heard of these child assassins...

http://colombiareports.com/colombia-news/news/4413-child-assassins-committed-542-murders-in-the-past-2-years.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/28/magazine/the-14-year-old-hit-man.html

As well as these child assassins recruited by a christian organization...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/03/el-ponchis-child-killer_n_791600.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Familia_Michoacana

Moreno González and Méndez Vargas, refer to their assassinations and beheadings as "divine justice" and that they may have direct or indirect ties with devotees of the New Jerusalem religious movement, which is noted for its concern for justice issues.

La Familia’s boss and spiritual leader Nazario Moreno González, (a.k.a.: El Más Loco or The Craziest One) has published his own 'bible',^[13][15] and a copy seized by Mexican federal agents reveals an ideology that mixes evangelical-style self help with insurgent peasant slogans. Moreno González, who was killed on 9 December 2010,^[16][17] seems to have based most of his doctrine on a work by Christian writer John Eldredge, using their own understanding of the idea in Eldredge's message that every man must have "a battle to fight, a beauty to rescue and an adventure to live.". The Mexican justice department stated in a report that Gonzalez Moreno has made Eldredge's book Salvaje de Corazón (Wild at Heart) required reading for La Familia gang members and has paid rural teachers and National Development Education (CONAFE) to circulate Eldredge's writings throughout the Michoacán countryside

So..you are from India...interesting...

Nope not at all. Go fish. You having a hard time reading my posts? No where in it do I say I speak hindi, now do I?

If you've read my posts and my back and forth discussions with KPR37 you would remember I'm from Boston. Irish, Scottish, and English descent mainly.

LOL..quite a few...how much time have you spent in Islamic Countries?

Haven't we had this conversation before?

Considering the illiteracy rate amongst Muslims I don't think it's really that "presumptious". Couple that with the fact that Arabic is the recommended, or required, language in which it is to be read...we have quite a large proportion of followers who only hear what they are taught.

Haven't we already had that conversation before too? Or were you not a part of it?

What I find most interesting is that you, or your family, fled to a Christian Country only to then reject the system which succors you, for a system which has played havoc in the sub-continent.

Now you see, there you go making stuff up AGAIN! This is clear evidence that most of what you say is speculation and assumptions based on your own imagination. NOWHERE in any of my posts, EVER, have I ever said I was from another country, nor have I ever alluded to being from another country. Yet you automatically ASSUME I am because of this statement...

Even my wife and her brothers and sisters, who only speaks english and hindi, had to learn tajweed when they were growing up and can read arabic now, although when asked they will say they don't know arabic, since they do not know modern arabic.

You are a bigot and a racist for automatically assuming that I am Indian because my wife is, and that because my wife is Indian that HAVE TO BE FROM INDIA!!! What, an American can't married an Indian? Why do you automatically assume so?

Is anything you say even remotely true? I guess not... everything you say you invent in your imagination. I'm sure you probably did read an article about Muslim literacy rates...but now I can see the article didn't say anything about Muslims being illiterate, you just invented that conclusion on your own, the same way you came to the conclusioin that I must be Indian.

I think you should stop talking now and put your foot in your mouth for a while. Lord knows the vine needs a break from you the useless drivel and mis-information you liter these seeds with!

1. Yes we've had this converstation before...and it always requires debunking that which you say to be true.

2. Your statement was that "your" family spoke Hindi....not your wife's. I wondered why it didn't agree with what you had said previously..but you'll note I didn't bring it up.

Essentially I'm just registering the fact for anyone reading the comments that I find much to disagree with in your comments..both regarding the facts and the conclusions.

They should study up on their own.

2. Your statement was that "your" family spoke Hindi....not your wife's.

ARe you blind? I even quoted the phrase in my last post! I don't say "MY" family. I'll quote it again...

Even my wife and her brothers and sisters, who only speaks english and hindi, had to learn tajweed when they were growing up and can read arabic now, although when asked they will say they don't know arabic, since they do not know modern arabic.

#2.71 - Tue May 17, 2011 3:38 PM PDT

Seriously, just stop talking. The more you try to dig yourself out of the hole you are in, the farther in you go.

Even AFTER posting the paragraph a second time you STILL GOT IT WRONG!!!! Further proving my point that pretty much everything you try to pass off as information is in fact MIS-INFORMATION!

Bob...Don't be for a minute fooled. It isn't Islam...it's those old religious fanatical eunoch leaders tuck safely into Mosques preaching more evil than Satan could dream up. They inspire the young males who are sexually frustrated to kill themselves. You come through this life once. All of us owe one death. That includes Muslims. How you die determines whether or not you rest in peace for all eternity.

These people are killing themselves and others thinking they are martyrs because some old eunoch imam tells that they must believe that. It's like mass brainwashing.

Don't be confused, Americans don't like Islam because it's a Theocracy. I would think Muslims are more tolerable when they learn to intergrate their faith with our civil developments.

Also Christians should take in the big picture because alot of the younger generations have renounced them. Should try practicing what you preach and stop telling people how to live their lives.

Nate,
You're right but unfortunately they don't try to integrate. Maybe things are different in other regions, but where I live you rarely see Muslims in public, and when you do they behave exactly as you would expect of someone who has left a cult compound to buy necessities. They do not interact in any way with the people around them.

Bertfw...I believe when you live in a religion-dominated society for thousands of years, it's next to impossible to imagine life any other way. I find most middle eastern males to be extraordinarily angry, bitter, resentful of America and yet they come here instead of remaining in their own country. I always take the time and trouble to remind those who are so anti-American that they can as easily return from whence they came if they don't like MY country.

Lately, all I see are immigrants who only come here for our money. Then, we wonder why America is heading in the wrong direction. Something very serious needs to be done about INS bringing such hateful, anti-American people to this country. If they cannot pledge allegiance to the country providing their wealth, I don't care what religion they are, they don't belong here and their lack of allegiance is a danger to the rest of us born here.

lalalalaala Jesus would have spoken against the muslims because they might say He is important religious figure, but they don't believe He is the only begotten Son of God. they claim , that by Him claim to be son of God is a lie. that God doesn't have a son and can't have a son. and that Mohammed is the only true prophet, try a little research or study you beliefs first, unless you are trying to cover up or distort the truth

Mike Purdin...It isn't for anyone to say who Jesus is and isn't. We didn't live in those times and can't possibly know what the facts are. Jesus was mentioned as the savior in the Old Testament as being born from the lineage of David. However, the misunderstanding has always been the use of the term, "Son of God" and "Son of Man". These are symbolisms of their age and time. The actuality is the Holy Trinity: God The Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Catholics accept as a matter of faith that there are three "persons" in one God. Persons...is the word used to represent "personhood" rather than a real human being. A married man is the best example of this. He is first an individual, second a husband and third a father assuming he has children. Three persons in one entity.

Faith is intended to be blind. You have faith that tomorrow you'll wake up and the earth will still orbit around the sun, the moon will still shine and the seas won't swallow you up.

I think sometimes people are attempting to show similarities, not much more, Mike.

It probably is closer than the jewish teaching that Jesus is a bastard, the son of a whore, and a heretic to boot, may his bones be ground to dust.

p.s. - it's not that Mohammed is the only true prophet - it is that he is the last prophet. All the prophets are true and sent by God.

freedman...I've never heard any Rabbi teach that about Jesus. Although, I have heard many a southern Baptist minister preach that about Mary. I believe the term they use is "Babylonian whore". All that shows me is that these guys have female issues that are unresolved.

If a man calls a woman a "whore", what does that make the sirer of her bastard child? A lunkheaded, irresponsible lout? It always takes 2 to tango.

In fact, the only time I have ever heard Jesus even mentioned in a Jewish temple was at a discussion having nothing to do with religious ceremonies. His name IS NOT in the old testament, known in Hebrew as the Torah. Absolutely no mention at all. All it takes is for an ignoramous such as freedman to learn religious history and maybe even take a course at a community college that might be willing to take a moron for a course or two. Then the facts would be so obvious that he'd know the guy who wrote the trash was probably even more ignorant than Mel Gibson.

Matt, I only meant that the teaching is in the Talmud.

Jesus is viewed as having been the most influential, and consequently the most damaging, of all false messiahs in Judaism.

The first one to have adopted this plan was Jesus the Nazarene, may his bones be ground to dust. He was a Jew because his mother was a Jewess although his father was a Gentile. For in accordance with the principles of our law, a child born of a Jewess and a Gentile, or of a Jewess and a slave, is legitimate. (Yebamot 45a)(Maimonides}

Matt...Then obviously the Bible is not the Torah? From what I've read of the Old Testament, there are several mentions of the coming of the Messiah. Again, interpretations and reinterpretations being what they are, the Bible is an easy mark for those who want to have their own "take" on it.

There is a group called "Jews for Jesus". What do you care if Jesus was a man whose example is exempliary or not? We all can't measure up to Mother Teresa either. Most human beings live in grand denial of that which limited mentalities do not allow for possibility. If it isn't in black and white with dollar signs attached, it's just bad. Sorry, I know better.

So...given a choice of which role model, bin Laden or Jesus, I'd follow, guess what? I think I'd follow that which extends the maximum amount of peace and harmony in my life and bin Laden "ain't it".

ewent, I haven't really heard any Rabbi preach anything on Jesus one way or the other.

Although Rabbi Yosef preaches that all Gentiles are here only to serve jews. Click the link to see the sermon, but the thought is again from the Talmud --

Jehovah created the non-Jew in human form so that the Jew would not have to be served by beasts. The non-Jew is consequently an animal in human form, and condemned to serve the Jew day and night. - Talmud

http://www.tinyurl.com/68ylk9v

Freedman...How many centuries ago was that written? That's why Torah, the Bible and Quuaran cannot be relied up as articles of faith. They were all written by men who claim to be "inspired". Sure...and how do you know some of them weren't up all night boozing or had those "funny" mushrooms for dinner that gave them hallucinations? You'll pardon my inability to place full reliance upon anything these all too weak human beings would write. I have enough trouble with Stephen King.

I beg to differ with you, the Messiah was mentioned and lives to this day. He will return and all will know who he is for he will not come as a thief in the night. Read for yourself who he is.

Way to go guys. You've successfully wasted your time talking about a religion you know nothing about... except what you heard from other people who know even less about what THEY were talking about.

and the sermon referenced was preached October 2010. Obviously the influence upon people of these writings is still effective.

I think my favorite Steven King might be the Gunslinger.

B - I don't know exactly who you are addressing. But I don't want you to worry about my time - I haven't wasted any.

Thanks for the sentiment just the same.

Islam holds in the Truth of Jesus. The Bible foretales the comming of the Messiha in the Old Testiomont of Duetoromny. The person that is being described in my opinion is not Jesus but is Mohammad. People stop buying into the lies about Islam. Allah tells us that the Christain is cloesest to the Muslim in faith. No the Muslim does not believe that Jesus was the son of God, and there is not proof of sukch a thing ever happening even in the Bible. Jesus true name is Isa ebin Mariam with means Son of Mary

Muslims are not peaceful!! They are killing people all over the world! American woman had better wake up soon or they be living in the stone age under Muslim rule...

The dems are cowards and will never stand up for freedom!

Here is the flip side to all of this. We would not know anything about the great thinkers, Aristotle and Plato and the like had it not been for Islamic scholars of the past. When the Moors took over Spain for 700 years while the rest of Europe was going through the Dark Ages Spain was Cultured Clean and safe for all religions. And let us not for get why the number system we us is called the Arabic numbers. You are confusing the actions of a few Muslims compared to the 1 Billion that live all over the world. Also be carefule of what you see on TV about what goes on in other lands. Ther are some real reasons why a lot of people frosm those countries dislike the American Gov. As a friend of mine from Paliestine once said. The bullets that kill us say Made in America. Allah say that Oppression is worest than Slaughter, alot of what you are seeing today are oppressed people trsying to come out from under that oppression. Unforfunatly the US has backed alot of thoes countries that are oppressing there people. We have played a large role in how things have shaped in this world. For us to act like we are innocent is foolish, and at best a lie. I do not defend the way a lot of these places are handleling there situation, or the killing of innocent people, nor have I lost any sleep over the killing of Bin Laden, he deserved what he got. AKRandy you speak with a lack of knowledge over what is going on in the world. Stop watching TV and get out and talk to people who are different than you are and aske them why. You might be supriesed at the answere.

You simply cannot be dealing with reality if you cannot admit Islam condones and calls to violence. If Muslims protected the works of the "great thinkers" why are they still so backwards? Stop with blaming the U.S. What Muslims really mean to say is they want Israel destroyed. No more, no less. They hate us because we have stood and will continue to stand with Israel. It is not about oppression, freedom of religion - it is about land - specifically Jerusalem. And birthright.

I have often asked myself what happen the way that Islam is now compared to the way that it once was. And please let us not forget all the killing that has been done in the name of Jesus. Ton of killing that is no different than what is going on today except there was no evening news to put it out there for all to see. Ever heard of the Crusades, The Inqusition, American Slavery, Salam Witch trails just to name a very few. It seems that all religions go through this process for one reason or another. The trick is not to be so blind that one can not find there way to the truth. The religion of Islam is seeking peace between people. It is not about war or killing. People have perverted the religion for there own needs. Just as the Christains have done for there own needs, and still do today. Just look how the Religious right treat there first African American President. THey have question everything about himbut his policies. He is not an American even has been question his faith in God. These rightous Christains are only a heartbeat away from acting just as stupid as these right wing Muslims.

And look at some of these staunch religious right wingers... Gingrich cheated on his wife WHILE SHE WAS ILL and served her divorce papers why she was recovering from serious Illness!

What does the Bible say we should do with Adulterers?

Oh, but it's ok, because he cheated on his wife "because he loves his country so much!" He did it for his country. WHAT BS!!?!?!

He's pushing the Islamaphobic agenda as a distraction so people don't start looking at what a shady, deceitful, greedy, scumbag he really is.

freedman; you wouldn't know a prophet if he was standing right in front of you. Their bodies are bound to the heavens and they have to live by example if they choose to or not.

Harry you can't be serious, I suggest you re-read the old testament it can't be any more clear on who it was referencing Jesus came to die for our sins, what exactly did Muhammad do. Taking man out of the equation, who do you think is the prince of peace? Wakeuppeople he has to answer to God , no man is perfect and only God has the right to judge.

I think this may be an example of what Harry is talking about --

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. -- Adolp Hitler April 12, 1922

Nate, it is interesting to study the prophets. Look at David, for example. I love his exuberance, his love, his passion, Yet - he was also a murderer and an adulterer.

Jonah was sometimes rebellious towards God. He would fight God, not wanting to obey Him, because Jonah thought God just wasn't fair.

Being a prophet does not negate being a human. What prophets tend to do, though, is become victorious overcomers. They win their battle, their struggle, their personal jihad.

Freedman Satan was once God's favorite. So Hitler claimed to be Christian, I think we all know that to be false. Jesus was a Jew so were his followers, thanks to him we are all invited to spend eternity with God, it's your choice

I think Harry was talking about perverting religion for their own needs. Hitler was a master at getting people stirred up. He knew what buttons to push. In his case, he used Christianity. Bin Laden might use Islam. I think that was Harry's point.

The question is, I guess, the German people. They followed Hitler, but not because the Germans have an evil gene that others do not. In fact, in the same fashion and examples that could get the Germans fired up for war, Bin Laden knows how to do that too. The truth is, Americans are not immune either. In my opinion, that is why we have to be vigilant, not accepting the various drumbeats on their own accord, but also being able to find, comprehend, and practice truth. This topic is really one of deception. Anybody has the ability to be deceived. Ask a German.

Mark B - have you ever heard this tune? -

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see His banners go!

Can you hear the tune?

FYI - this is not in the bible. It can still stir up a little sumpin' sumpin'.

It is time! Time to get our M16's, our drones, our stealth bombers.
If you believe - then you must act! Would you deny Christ?
No! God Forbid! Who can be against us when Christ is for us?
Rise up! Now is the time as has never been before. Show your true colors.
Are you willing to walk the walk - or are you a talker only?
We need men and women of faith to come to battle.
Jesus gave His life for you. Are you willing to lay yours down for Him?
O death? Where is your sting?
Our Saviour has defeated death and hell with His precious blood shed on your behalf.
Hear the call! Do not resist. You are either for Christ - or you are against Him.
At the end of time - do not be the one that Jesus looks at and says "I never knew you."
Your eternal life depends upon your willingness to join in the battle against evil.

Crowns and thrones may perish, kingdoms rise and wane,
But the church of Jesus constant will remain.
Gates of hell can never gainst that church prevail;
We have Christ's own promise, and that cannot fail.

When it comes to murder,death,kill, most religions are equal. But parading a 6 yr old dead body around and sprinkling his blood? Not too many can claim that fame. No wonder God did away with Moses and Jesus's bodies.

Islam is a religion of peace, learn first about it! Discover the importance of been one! dont judge us! dont listen to TV.. Islam is the only way to purify your sin and the key door to haven, Jesus will not save you from Hell! we pray 5 times a day to God the only true one God of Adam & Ibrahim & Moses & Jesus & Mohammed may peace be up on them, we remmember God every day in our daily prayers that he has set up on us, hopping God will forgive us and have mercy on us, one of priority purpose been here on earth is to worship God the only one, whom ever is fighting ISLAM is fighting God! it's a war you lose at the end! may God Guide us all and have mercy on us!

Dear Maxeemas, my friend in God, you are so right. Although I am not adhering to any one particular religion. Anyone who fights, period, is fighting God and his brothers and sisters in God. Hatred and violence towards our brothers and sisters in God is an assault on God and on ourselves. The gates of heaven do not open for those with hatred in their hearts. Does not the Quran say to incorporate new knowledge into our way of thinking? Let us all rethink any warped words of wisdom that guides us to harm each other in hate and retribution. Let everyone respect each other. God love you.

Maxeemus your quote "

Islam is a religion of peace, learn first about it! Discover the importance of been one! dont judge us! dont listen to TV.. Islam is the only way to purify your sin and the key door to haven, Jesus will not save you from Hell! we pray 5 times a day to God the only true one God of Adam & Ibrahim & Moses & Jesus & Mohammed may peace be up on them, we remmember God every day in our daily prayers that he has set up on us, hopping God will forgive us and have mercy on us, one of priority purpose been here on earth is to worship God the only one, whom ever is fighting ISLAM is fighting God! it's a war you lose at the end! may God Guide us all and have mercy on us! "

Dude, your God must be an awful bad fellow. Fear is a powerful thing.

" hopping God will forgive us and have mercy on us", don't think I want to know a God like that, he's yours you can keep him.

Max Jesus is the way the truth and the light, no man cometh to the lord but thru me. I'll pray for you.

JCB & WLEE I will pray for you, God s door to mercy and forgiveness is still open..in his kingdom, still accepting confessions and fresh start for sinner like me and you, once it's closed there is no going back.. I will continue praying for my self and for you all

Thackenberg.... God bless you too

Max Jesus is the way the truth and the light, no man cometh to the lord but thru me. I'll pray for you.

we will pray for you..

When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me. [Qur'an 43:63]

O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Qur'an 4:171]

The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was. [Qur'an 3:84]

Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship), but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He wills; and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin. [Qur'an 4:48]

I believe in Jesus and I read about his life and I have a great respect for prophet Jesus peace be up on him, if we call Jesus son of God! how come Adam is not son of God? he never had a father then, technically Adam is his son!

God created ADAM from dust or dirt and created Eve from his Rib and together God bless them with more of us, God want it also to show us that he has the power to do more! God created Jesus without a men touching a women, it's a miracle and Jesus knows it and warn his companian not to make false stories about him.

at that time Jews were close to him but they never believed in him today? so who do you think would make such a story about him been son of God? I didnt say Jews!! but Muslims believe in him but they never been around him, our prophet Mohammed peace be up on him spoke of Jesus and fullfil the same mission was giving to all prophets, he laid out the truth about him that no one accepts today.

People are so ignorant of Mohammed peace be up on him, because he came from the desert and he was riding camels! who will believe someone who came from the desert claiming he is the last one and he has a message.

you think I can just Go and pretend I am a messenger? all messengers had something special God resigned to them and that s how we reconazied them, our prophet miracle is the Koran

so who do you think would make such a story about him been son of God?

That would be Paul. Paul never knew Jesus (pbuh) while Jesus (pbuh) was alive. In fact, Paul was one of the Jews persecuting christians. After Jesus's (pbuh) crucifixion was announced, Paul set his sites on James. James had been appointed by Jesus to continue preaching the Word of God. Paul had heard James was going to Damascus and set out to go there and kill James. It was during that journey that Paul had his "vision" of Jesus (pbuh). It was also there that Paul decided that most of what Jesus (pbuh) said was irrelevant and the only important thing was that Jesus (pbuh) died for our sins.

Because of that, Christianity became split into two factions. The Pauline Christians that believed that Jesus (pbuh) was the son of God and he died for our sins, and that we should reject all past scripture and laws. And Judeo Christians, led by the Apostle James, who believed we needed to maintain the Torah and everything from all the other Prophets of God, including past laws, while also including the new teachings of Jesus (pbuh). Essentially, Judeo Christianity was, back then, what we now call Islam.

But in the 4th Century AD, the Romans (under Constintine) adopted the Pauline version of Christianity as the country's official religion and "romanized" it. Jesus (pbuh) was subsituted for Zeus (the son of god/Cronos). The Virigin Mary was substituted for Venus and Diana. Satan substituted Hades. Peter replaced Anicetus. Michael replaced Aries. The roman Winter Solstace festival became "christmas". The roman holiday for Cybele and Attis became Easter. And so on... Arch Angels and Saints replaced the roles and duties of the roman pagan dieties, and the Roman pagan holidays and celebrations were rebranded as "christian". It made it very easy for romans to "swallow" the christianity "pill".

And with the roman army behind it at that point, Pauline Christianity literally stomped out Judeo Christianity entirely, eventually making it illegal and also burning lots of other authentic Gospels that contradicted Pauline Christianity's version of events.

Which shorty after that, God blessed mankind with another messenger to continue the Message of Jesus (pbuh), Moses (pbuh), Noah (pbuh), and keep the message from becoming watered down and distorted by romanization as well as by other cultural influences. That messenger was Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam).

The problem is very simple: America is truly a 'melting pot' of different society's that have come together to form our Nation. Muslims don't want to 'mix', they only want a 'multi-cultural' situation that will give them a foot hold until they can take over the area and spread. Europe has discovered this (go search on sites to see how they are trying to fight back against the Muslim influx).

The reason we worked as a Nation is that each culture learned to pick up certain aspects of existing culture (yeah, all the way back to the Native Americans) and these are the cultures that have survived here, while maintaining as much of their own Ancestral heritage as they chose to. Again, Muslims don't accept this theory, they believe that when they move in, everyone should accept ONLY their way and convert to it. Of course you may now insert all the bad things that we did to the Indians as we expanded, but then let's keep going back in history as far as we can and guess what.....this has always been the way cultures expand! It is how we handle it going forward that counts.

Right now we are on the verge of Isolationism (that same way it happened right before WW2) that will cause us to turn inwards in hopes of avoiding all the 'nastiness' in the world, that won't work either while you have cultures that think it is ok to blow themselves and everyone around them up. Regardless of the outcome to innocents. NOT a very likable 'Religion' at all. This just doesn't work, anywhere, at anytime.

the solution? ask 20 people, get 20 different opinions. It sure ain't Politicians though, we see them as the greediest of all.

Enough rambling, I agree, secular law does work the best, when correctly applied by honest people, hopefully non corruptable enough to truly believe in what they are doing.

American Muslims follow our laws - are our prisons over-loaded with Muslims - NO. But just as a Catholic may follow the advice of his/her priest, a Muslim person is allowed to seek advice from an Imam. Every poster is full of hate yet also completely uneducated about Islam and American Muslims. They are equal to any other American - period. That is the law. Who are we going to hate next? It seems there is always someone to hate, it's ridiculous and sad.

BMette: First of all religion is essential to society for it is the moral conscience of all our actions. Atheists such as Hitler and Stalin did nothing for the world except bring Mass murder. To group all religions into one category is ignorance on your part. Islam is not a religion - it is a political force. Christians are called to live a lifestlye of its founder, Jesus Christ. If they do, they are a blessing to all mankind. If they don't they are a sign of hypocrisy. Muslims are called to live a lifestly of their founder who died in battle. If they do, they are a curse to mankind. If they don't they are a blessing.

Bmette,

While I do agree with you that religion has run its course and it is no longer useful, (I believe it causes stagnation as well), I am going to disagree about the United States being a secular country. While separation of church and state are written in our constitution, and freedom of religion is "promised" this country is not religiously free. If you aren't a christian, or jewish to an extent, you may as well forget about enjoying full equality. We even had a president (Bush Sr. I believe) say that Atheists aren't real Americans.

In addition, Our schools have completely backpedaled. Intelligent design is NOT science, yet it is being taught in our public schools, paid for by our tax dollars, and it is believed by over 50% of American. Shameful.

Another "religion is not needed" person that is more of a religious zealot than any religious person or group on the planet other than Muslims and Islam. In fact you dingbats are more dictatorial than Islam. Your religion is that of "self" and anyone that disagrees with your "religious" point of view you call religious while you sit in your own selfrighteous arrogant belief system and try and cram it down others throats. If you think other "religions" different from you own are not necessary then that is fine, but don't try and cram your "religious beliefs" onto others either. You "reilgion is not needed" kinds of people and Muslims are not a bit different in your zeal to persecute others and force them into your "belief system", all the while saying you are not doing so.

Aliwill: If intelligent design is not a science, neither is darwinian evolution which continues to evolve into non-sense. Show me one bit of proof? Missing link? To teach darwinian evolution as science is to teach comparative science. Comparative science is not science but simply showing similarities that do not produce a single bit of evidence. When we teach the children about the Big Bang are we not doing it on a theoretical basis? So, why is Intelligent Design so dangerous for our students if we are attempting to teach them how to think and to think about all theories? Don't you remember the ridiculous theory of panspermia?? Do you remember? Do you remember the ridiculous chart of monkey to man??? Do you remember? Do you see those anymore? Do you remember the ridiculous "proof" of archaeopteryx - how it was the missing link from dinosaur to bird during Darwin's days? And how today it is not???

How many young children have we screwed up and never unscrewed???

Black Kettle & Sand Creek,

You Speak with Forked Tongue!!! There are or have been several cases around the United States where "American Muslim's" have issued 'Shariah Law' to a family member...

This old very bad habbit has been practice by people like Mother Terresa, Martin Luther King JR, and Ghandi all which use to help and free people. Relegion is very important part of soceity and people who our spritual our both more happy and live longer lives then those who are not spirtual.

Has for Islam I believe most muslims our peaceful, I believe most must american muslims would fight for this country. The parts we need to watch out for is both Sharia law, and Whabisim.

Aliwill716

50 percent? Ironic. Time must be getting close to the rapture. The Bible says, "two will be working in the field, one will rapture, and one will remain. That means 50 percent- No wonder why so many want to get rid of "religion"- You're running out of time and don't want to be alone !!!!! Evolution is not science. Where have you been? Under a rock? I guess people like you think if you just say there is no God, it will make it true. Hahahaha Silly goose.

Esnofla-2837591

BMette: First of all religion is essential to society for it is the moral conscience of all our actions. Atheists such as Hitler and Stalin did nothing for the world except bring Mass murder.

Right - because no religion has ever promoted mass murdered anyone. LOL!

Esnofla-2837591 You need to realize that Hitler was catholic & there have been plenty of wars and slaughterings done in the name of the Catholic/Christian God. So please don't feed into the ignorance that the Catholic church is all warm and fuzzies. When explorers and missionaries went around if native people didn't assimilate they were slaughtered. They would pit one culture against another in order to have them kill off each other. A person can be of good moral character without religion, there are more than a handful of religious "moral leaders" out there who don't practice what they preach everyday. Even GW and Palin have stated that we are in wars because their god said to.

Dropping bullets- maybe the surviving 50% will be the agnostics, or Mormons, or Jews, or even the Muslims. The three major world religions all have their base is Jerusalem all with in blocks of each other, do you all really think these religions didn't stem from one? Um evolution is science. Where have you been? What I don't get is why one can't believe in god and evolution? God started it and let evolution happen...that simple. (& Silly monkey would be much more correct.)

sweetness34 - Moral Character? Who defines that? You? Your religious views? You as "god' do, that is who. What is moral character? The more you numbskulls try and defend "your religious beliefs" all the while saying you have none is hilarious, and hypocritcal at the same time.

You "anti-religionists" are the most religious zealots on the planet. You are forever trying to convert others into your "belief" system. It is hilarious to listen to you numbskulls exalt yourselves over others with your "worship me attitudes" because "god" does not exist. But in truth you just want to be "god" yourselves and desire others to "worship" you by listening and believing what you say. Hilarious that you are such Hypocrites.

Since when does being tolerant equate to me having to trust a fellow American, or more importantly, mean I have to accept and qualify anyone else's creed or (false) religious beliefs?

Freedom of worship in America, but I'm free to decide that I know Islam is a bastardized false religion that turned itself away from Christ 600 years afterward. Anyone who looks at WHAT is stated in the texts of the three monotheist religions extant today will realize Christianity is the only one remaining with the Word and Truth.

I can tolerate living alongside others, but I do not have to accept their lifestyle or beliefs, etc as my own.

I get that as one of the biggest modern "new age" fallacies rampant today.

Esnofla and dropping bullets

Wow....just wow.

I detest Muslim extremists and their evil acts. But I am MUCH more concerned about the more numerous Christian fanatics trying to impose their religious beliefs upon everyone else in this country. For example, their willful ignorance of science and intolerance of non-Christian viewpoints (which drives the selection of textbooks in many parts of the country) is highly disturbing. Almost reminds me of the Mullahs in Afghanistan brainwashing those impressionable young boys...

There are good people and bad people in every culture practicing whatever religion.

Remember, both Islam and Christianity preach that all nonbelievers will die/not go to heaven. So believe as they do or else.

Well I believe in doing the best one can in the time allotted on Earth, treating others with respect and shouldering one's responsibilities with dignity.

Its Actually over 90% not 50%

Fighting over which religion is and isn't the most credible is stupid. There are 2 things Americans should never fight over...religion and their families. The answer to the problem of pushy religious fanatics is to tell them to keep their religion to themselves. They don't have the right to push their religious beliefs on anyone else. If people kept their religions to themselves, there would be no jihad.

Those old imams aren't stupid. They know by riling up their sexually frustrated young male followers, it vents on someone other than the real culprits---religious leaders.

Sweetness34: So Hitler went to Church every Sunday? You are so full of yourself! Hitler was baptized a Catholic just like you were! And for him, it had the same affect: meaningless. Don't fool yourself and others. Please. Did Hitler get confirmed in his faith? Of course not! The corruption of the best is the worst. He betrayed his faith and became the worst!

I don't worry about who the next Pope will be. I worry about who the next charismatic atheist will be? And what he will do? And how he will do it? Will he drop atomic bombs on cities like no Church leader ever did? Will he orchestrate the next Mass genocide or concentration camps like no religious leader ever did? YOU BET!

Pragmatist: Please tell me who the Christian fanatics are!!! Please!!! Are there any? Who are they? Who is subscribing to suicide vests and guaranteed heaven? Please? Are you talking about the Koran burning pastor who exercised his freedom of speech and supposedly was responsible for the killing of Christians in the Middle East???? Or our soldiers?

Yeah, all those Christians feeding the poor, helping others, and building hospitals. You liberal idiots want what others have but NEVER do thing to help others yourselves. But when you lay dying on your death bed or tragedy strikes you are all either blaming God for doing it or either asking those that do believe in God to help you.

jj789...If that's so....it must mean that the Biggie Piggie Conservatives are hogging it all, right? When you conservatives lay in your death beds, you are the ones who will answer for the needless deaths you are guilty of because healthcare costs "too much", you are the ones who answer for the numerous wars that killed innocent civilians and our military personnel because conservatives all believe "war makes a nation profitable". Oh really? Show us the money. You are the ones who must answer on your death beds for all of the gun deaths in this country you conservatives are to blame for.

You do realize that with a conservative's last breath, he will have to answer for his greed, his frauds, his deceptions and his cheating? Not to mention numerous episodes of zipper problems so rampant among the hotchie kotchie conservatrons.

Sweetness34: So Hitler went to Church every Sunday? You are so full of yourself! Hitler was baptized a Catholic just like you were! And for him, it had the same affect: meaningless. Don't fool yourself and others. Please. Did Hitler get confirmed in his faith? Of course not! The corruption of the best is the worst. He betrayed his faith and became the worst!

Hitler was considered part of the Catholic Church up until his death. He was a non-practicing Catholic, but I'm sure he was taught the same morals as every other Catholic. I was raised Catholic (I've been baptized, received first communion and confirmed), but I've since left the church to become an atheist, so I know the teachings that are given in the Catholic Church. However, it just goes to show that any person in any religion, or lack of religion, is capable of terrible things. It's not necessarily reserved for one religious group over another.

I don't worry about who the next Pope will be. I worry about who the next charismatic atheist will be? And what he will do? And how he will do it? Will he drop atomic bombs on cities like no Church leader ever did? Will he orchestrate the next Mass genocide or concentration camps like no religious leader ever did? YOU BET!

And maybe the next atheist leader will promote peace and helping out your fellow man. I am an atheist, but I don't go around promoting hatred or telling people that my lack of religion is better than their religion. Why is it assumed by you that because someone is an atheist, they have no morals? I know the difference between right and wrong, and I don't need a God or a church to tell me what it is. Just because I've left the Catholic church does not mean that I've suddenly abandoned all morals.

Pragmatist: Please tell me who the Christian fanatics are!!! Please!!! Are there any? Who are they? Who is subscribing to suicide vests and guaranteed heaven? Please?

What about those Christian fanatics that blow up abortion clinics? I highly doubt every Christian agrees with their actions, even if they don't agree with what the clinics are doing. They're a small fraction of the Christian population, but they do exist.

Christians, Muslims, atheists, etc, are all capable of doing terrible things. We all have it in us.

BUMBLEBEE J....NEVER..I mean NEVER will 1 & 1 &1 = 1. You have 3 gods which is POLY not MONO. Hindus & Christians are Polytheists.

Oh by the way...I forgot to answer your ridiculous assertion of the Christians that are fanatic because they blow up (none ever blew up a clinic by the way) an abortion clinic. ABORTION CLINIC...hmmm....a place where "doctors" go in and tears apart the limbs or sucks out the brain of a human being. Hmmmmm....interesting how atheists look at life and virtue. Heil Hitler away!!!

Millions of children aborted and counting...And we are to think that it is all okay because our government tells us that it is legal. Good reason!!! Right? Just like the legal system in Nazi or Communist nations...perfectly legal...perfectly logical...perfectly devastating.

ewent - You are just another jealous, envious, covetous, godless corrupt liberal that thinks everyone OWES you something. You don't want God, you don't want prayer, you don't want them but then bash them for helping others. You are too busy smoking your dope, doing your drugs, and expecting others to fund your doctor and hospital bills. You live like a pig and then expect others to pay for it when your decadent lifestyle destroys you. You blame everyone else for your pathetic existence, even blame God, but it is YOU that has made your life HELL, and not others. Blaming everyone else, like blaming conservatives, is a useless stupid crutch that you freeloaders always try to use to ignore your own stupid decisions to ignore God and what he has stated and the destruction that doing so brings to your pathetic loser existence.

Magnolia Simms: You learned nothing as a Catholic and you learned even less as an atheist. Let me put it to you in simple terms: Christians have ideals that can be lived. The ideals of Christianity is simple: Love God above all things and your enemy as yourself. What ideal does atheism provide the world: NONE!

Are you certain about that? Yes, atheism doesn't have the structure of a religion, but that doesn't mean atheists aren't capable of love and understanding, and all the things that the Christian religion says it preaches. Like I said, I don't need a religion to tell me what's right and wrong. I know this already, just like every person should. Long before I started attending church (when I was in pre-school), I knew it was not right to hurt someone else. Not because the church told me, but because I knew that when it happened to me, I didn't like it.

What has atheism given the world: HELL!

Actually, hell is a Christian concept. Atheists don't believe in hell.

You tell us that we are all capable of doing harm. Speak for yourself and for your friends!

There have been plenty of examples of people from all walks of life harming one another. Priests that molest children, Muslim suicide bombers, etc. It's not confined to one religion (or lack thereof). Everyone is capable, but it all depends on whether you have the moral upbringing to know right from wrong. Whether you learn it from a church or learn from somewhere else.

Did Jesus Christ ever harm anyone? Did Mother Teresa ever harm anyone? Did Francis of Assisi harm anyone? No.

Yes, they are good examples of what a good person should be like. Mother Theresa did a lot of good in her life, she was selfless. I'm not saying that every person harms others. I'm saying everyone has the potential. But it's what you do with that potential that makes you either a good person or a bad person. Religion has very little to do with it.

I'm an atheist, but I do good things. I volunteer at an animal shelter, I donate food to the local food pantry. Not because religion told me to, but because it's a good thing to do.

And yet, they lived life for others. Ideals are what differentiates a Christian from an atheist. They have never been able to provide the world with a set of values and morals.

Yes, the Christian church has good ideals, but that doesn't mean all Christians follow them. And atheists are just as capable of determining right from wrong. It's not exclusive to Christians. I know that killing someone is wrong. I know that adultery is wrong. I don't need a church to tell me these things. And I don't think there is a God hovering over my head to make sure I don't do these things. I have a conscience that works just fine in that respect.

And yet, you wish to ignore what truly separates the two: Not ignorance but love.

Are you saying that atheists are not capable of love?

Atheism gives the world nothing! NOTHING, not even truth for it is based on something that cannot be proven!

Has the existance of God been proven and I missed it? Because I'm pretty sure it hasn't been proven. You have faith that he exists, and that's fine for you. I have faith that he doesn't. Your beliefs are based on conjecture just like mine are. If someone flies up into space and gets a picture of God sitting up on a cloud watching over us, I'd be willing to rethink my stance. But until there is proof of God, I'm perfectly content without Him.

And the results have been desvastating for the world! Years of Communism that nearly engulfed half the world!

Atheists are the cause of Communism? Can you please site how atheists are all the cause of it? Because I'd love to read it. And please don't just say because Hitler did it. I need something more substantial than that.

Two devastating wars that produced the worst genocides the world has ever seen. What does Fascism, Communism and Nazism have in common: ATHEISM!

And the Crusades have Islam and Christianity to blame for all of those deaths. Muslims invaded, and the Christians retaliated and killed many people. Like I said, this type of dreadful behavior is not exclusive to atheists, and it's not exclusive to Muslims, and it's not exclusive to Christians.

Give me one name of one atheist, that ever considered his enemy his friend? GIVE ME A BREAK YOU FOOL OF HEART AND MIND!

I don't have a Bible to quote, but I feel that I've been a lot more receptive to your stance that you have been to mine. I'm open-minded, and I'm willing to talk to those that have differing viewpoints. One of my best friends is a devout Baptist, and I've been to church with her, and I've listened to her viewpoint. I don't agree, but I'm willing to listen.

Do I count? Or do you need someone from a book somewhere? But then again, I don't believe that someone who believes differently than me is my "enemy."

I forgot to answer your ridiculous assertion of the Christians that are fanatic because they blow up (none ever blew up a clinic by the way) an abortion clinic.

That's not what I said at all. I said there are some fanatical Christians out there, not that all Christians are fanatical because that happens.

ABORTION CLINIC...hmmm....a place where "doctors" go in and tears apart of sucks out the brain of a human being. Hmmmmm....interesting how atheists look at life and virtue.

So bombing someone and taking their life is okay, but taking the lives of babies is not okay? I don't get the reasoning. If you think abortion is murder, how is killing an abortion doctor not murder as well? I'm not saying that I agree with abortion clinics, and I'm not saying that I don't agree. I would love to live in a world where abortions are not done. I would love to see a lot less of them. But that doesn't mean I'm going to blow up a clinic or shoot a doctor to stop them.

And I'm not saying that all Christians would do that either. I was just pointing out that there are fanatical sects to every religion (or lack thereof), including Christianity, Islam, Protestants, atheists, etc.

Don't be so naive to think that any group is exempt from people who do terrible things to other humans.

Magnolia SImms: You just proved my point! Thank You! You make up your own right and wrong without even realizing it. You claim that you knew it was wrong to hurt someone...Really? Just out of the blue you knew that? Explain then why some children hurt others? If you already knew that because it had been miraculously infused inside of you.

You are a fool...truly! Your morals are not my morals...THANK GOD! Not by a long shot. And for this reason we need a God that helps to break the grid lock between humans! Just like we need laws, that are based on the Ten Commandments, or do you believe that before the 10 Commandments were written that people actually lived by them??? Hahahahahahha!!! Right! Hahahahaha

You don't know history. You know know humanity. You don't know God. But you do know animals. I am so glad you work at an animal shelter.

There is something in common between animals and atheists - neither are capable in believing in God.

ewent, are you saying that George Soros isn't wealthy and greedy??? He is by no means a conservative either. And, there are plenty of wealthy who are not conservatives. Just take a look at hollywood of today. I guess Pelosi and Hillary are wondering where they'll get the funds for their next botox injections too. I guess Hillary about drained her account after spending $600,000.00 on the toilets for her daughters wedding too. C'mon ewent, be fair now.

Somehow those of you who hate/dislike/don't trust/don't understand Christianity have missed the main point. I agree many horrible things have been done in the Name of Jesus and there is alot of violence in the Old Testament/Torah. HOWEVER, at this time in history, in our country, no Christians are calling for Jihad, murder, terrorism or anything else. To liken Christians out trying to share what they believe to be a good and life-saving thing to Muslims blowing themselves up is absolutely ridiculous. OK, so tell the ppl trying to convert you to mind their own business...the worst they will do is pray for you. I don't think that is in the league of blowing up ppl! You can disbelieve and hate the Christians all you want...personally, I get irritated at them myself b/c I think as a whole they spend way too much time being Pharisees (go look that up, I don't have time to explain)...however,it would do some of you well to actually read the Bible before you try to comment on what it says. For instance, NOWHERE in the New Testament does it advocate violence FOR ANY REASON. I get how many ppl equate Christians with Southern right wing conservatives, but that is not the whole picture.

Esnofla, you're the one who's starting to come off as a fanatic. Why do you believe that your religion is the only correct one? Why should everyone live by your ideals? Your views and attitudes towards Magnolia and other faiths doesn't seem very christian. Attitudes like that are a big reason many leave the church. Yes Hitler and many other christians have done wrong in the world, quite a few in the name of God. Its ok to admit it. Read your history. It now seems that you have issue with your god's creatures too? The story of Noah shows god's compassion for animals, he has more love for them than you appear to have for your fellow human beings.

Please be sure before you assume you know my religion and background. I prefer the Buddhist way of life, which is much more tolerant and loving than your religion it appears

Magnolia SImms: You just proved my point! Thank You! You make up your own right and wrong without even realizing it.

I don't make it up as I go. There are just certain things that no person should do. I learned what was right and wrong from my parents. You learned it from the church. My morals are probably not very different from yours.

There are people out there that pick and choose which morals set forth by their church to follow. Adultery is considered to be breaking one of the 10 Commandments, yet it happens all the time with Catholics, sometimes ending in divorce. Just because a church sets forth good ideals doesn't mean that the people will follow them. That was my whole point.

You claim that you knew it was wrong to hurt someone...Really? Just out of the blue you knew that?

I learned it because when someone hurt me, I didn't like it. So I knew that doing it to others would give them the same pain it gave me.

Explain then why some children hurt others?

Because they didn't learn the same lesson I did. They don't have parents that teach them right from wrong. Or they're sociopaths.

If you already knew that because it had been miraculously infused inside of you.

I didn't say it was infused in my being or any such nonsense. I said I learned it because when someone hurt me, I knew I didn't like it. So I learned not to hurt others. How is this so difficult to understand?

You are a fool...truly! Your morals are not my morals...THANK GOD!

You seem to think you know my morals. You don't. But you're right, we probably do differ on some things. But what makes yours right and mine wrong?

Not by a long shot. And for this reason we need a God that helps to break the grid lock between humans! Just like we need laws, that are based on the Ten Commandments, or do you believe that before the 10 Commandments were written that people actually lived by them??? Hahahahahahha!!! Right! Hahahahaha

So you think that your morals should be forced upon those with different beliefs than yours? Personally, I don't think that calling people names and making snide remarks about their beliefs is the way to get people to see my standpoint. I prefer a calm conversation. Should I start calling others fools and ridiculing them, since your morals are so much better than mine? I'm just following your example.

You don't know history. You know know humanity. You don't know God.

I don't know history? Care to enlighten me on what I'm mistaken on? And you're right, I don't know God, because I don't believe He exists. It's hard to know someone that isn't around. You feel that you know him, and you're welcome to that.

But you do know animals. I am so glad you work at an animal shelter.

I volunteer because it's the right thing to do. Would you think my volunteer work would be more valuable if I worked at a homeless shelter instead of an animal shelter?

There is something in common between animals and atheists - neither are capable in believing in God.

I'm capable of believing in God. I did at one time. And like I said, if someone shows me definitive proof that God exists, I'll gladly rethink my stance. I'm capable of being open-minded, and I have no problem admitting I'm wrong when there is proof in front of me that I am wrong.

However, you have yet to convince me that I'm wrong. If you'd like to discuss it, I'm more than happy to have a discussion about the difference in our beliefs. But if you'd just like to ridicule me, it's a waste of my time. But seeing how you're unwilling to answer the questions I posed to you, I'm assuming you're not open to a discussion.

Islam is a religion of peace, learn first about it! Discover the importance of been one! dont judge us! dont listen to TV.. Islam is the only way to purify your sin and the key door to haven, Jesus will not save you from Hell! we pray 5 times a day to God the only true one God of Adam & Ibrahim & Moses & Jesus & Mohammed may peace be up on them, we remmember God every day in our daily prayers that he has set up on us, hopping God will forgive us and have mercy on us, one of priority purpose been here on earth is to worship God the only one, whom ever is fighting ISLAM is fighting God! it's a war you lose at the end! may God Guide us all and have mercy on us!

Wow...after reading some of these comments I am more scared of fanatic Christians than of the Muslims.

We don't need religion? Maybe we don't need the dogma and the arguments about who is right and who is wrong. My God is better than your God? Maybe we don't need to fight about individual differences between the religions and focus on the spiritual dimensions they have in common. By finding common ground we can understand each other. But, the individual differences, rituals and customs that make each religion and culture unique can be treasured. What a boring world it would be if we were all the same! Promoting a greater awareness of ourselves and others with mutual respect is the only way to prove that we are more the same than different.

Magnolia SImms: I am so sorry If I have yet to understand your position. You may speak about how I ridicule you, but you ridicule yourself when you write. Again, let me give you an example.

You say that your parents taught you right from wrong, but you didn't need a Church to tell you so. First of all, where did your parents learn right from wrong? It is interesting that they sent you to a Catholic School. So, I may be wrong, but I would assume that someone along your animal line (don't be offended, if you are an atheist, then you believe that humans are no more than animals) was a Catholic or subscribed to the Catholic or Christian faith once upon a time?

You want to tell me that your parents taught you right from wrong and that they got it from their parents who got from their parents and never got it from any Christian God. Correct? Ok.

The problem with your logic is first of all it is unbelieveable. Second, your concept of right and wrong is personal. It is based on nothing other than what "you feel" to be right and what "you feel" to be wrong.

Do you understand? That's why, you learned what hurt you but you never learned what hurt YOU DO! Because you are your own god! You decide for yourself, even when you are blinded by emotions, sentiments, feelings, etc... what will be right and wrong for you!

How is this harmful? Simple. By extending your right (let say in the case of abortion) you take away the right of another (the baby). What you considered to be right, may not be considered right for another - and they may actually pay for it as well!

Hitler believed that what he was doing was good. Stalin believed that what he was doing was good. Usama bin Laden beleived that what he was doing was good. All those who murder in God's name believe they are doing what is good. All those who murder without God's name beleive they are doing what is good.

What did Jesus say? Love your enemy. This is why we have people who are able to forgive. An atheist has no reason to forgive anyone. There is no eternal justice. There is no eternal reward. This is the reason why priest are the same as atheist pedophiles. They believe there is no eternal justice. So, they could care less what others feel or experience. And if one day the law were to change, and allow infants to be murdered because they were born defective, or that we could marry animals because we felt like it. Would it mean then that it is right? It is good? It is ok?

When men and women decide by vote what will be and what will not be, then we run the risk of never knowing what is good or bad, right or wrong, holy or immoral.

Who is to say that everything I mentioned above won't happen? You? No. But the Christian God does not believe that murdering an innocent human being will ever be morally accceptable. The Christian God also does not believe that man is an animal but that he is capable of being a Saint, which means in the Christian God, to lay down your life for another.

What is the proof that there is no God? You have none. So, your position is based on faith, not on intellect because there are plenty of intelligent individuals who believe in God. So your faith that there is no God is not a scientific fact. Correct?

My proof to you that God exists is that there is a moral code that is imposed upon the human heart, not for survival purposes but for progress to be made which means for man to come together. He doesn't need to in order to survive, but it is best that he does in order to live.

Esnofla- You are the exact reason we Atheists exist. You do not care about anybody else's view if that view has nothing to do with YOUR religion. You put yourself on a pedestal because you believe in god and look down on everyone who does not. You truly believe that everyone who does not believe what you believe is wrong and therefore an animal. The tragic thing is that you feel so little for people who don't agree with you and your religion, that you proabably miss out on meeting very nice and generous people.

Why do people have to follow your ideology to be accepted by you? I don't believe the intention of your religion was to look down upon anybody who does not believe the same things you do. Acceptance is the better part of humanity. Different opinions are not a disease you can catch. It is ok if people believe in things that you do not.

I, as an a Atheist, am ok with you believing in what ever you want to. I would never try to persuade you to think otherwise. But my NOT believing what you believe should not form hatred towards me just as your beliefs do not produce a hatred in me toward you. Why can't you just accept that different people believe in different things and enjoy your life?

Maxeemas

Islam is a religion of peace, learn first about it! Discover the importance of been one! dont judge us! dont listen to TV.. Islam is the only way to purify your sin and the key door to haven, Jesus will not save you from Hell! we pray 5 times a day to God the only true one God of Adam & Ibrahim & Moses & Jesus & Mohammed may peace be up on them, we remmember God every day in our daily prayers that he has set up on us, hopping God will forgive us and have mercy on us, one of priority purpose been here on earth is to worship God the only one, whom ever is fighting ISLAM is fighting God! it's a war you lose at the end! may God Guide us all and have mercy on us!

I disagree with you 100%. But I will say that God is a merciful God. We don't have to die for God, God has died for us and my sins are already forgiven. God has already won. And, for the record, just because I disagree with your ideals, does not mean I am a hate monger. I just disagree. Peace

Maxeemas

I need to make a correction on my remark , I am still unsure about Islam being a religion of peace or not, so I should not say I disagree 100% on that issue, 50 % at this point should be about right.

Independant4ever:

You guys are really gonna have your hands full. Read Maxeemas' post above.

peace

Lucy1 : no one said and I never said to die for God! I agree that God is mercyful but listen to yourself... God died for us... God cannot die and will not forgive anyone who would say things like that about him, please help yourself before its too late, God have clearified that confusion in the book (Koren) about Jesus!! that he didnt die in the cross and he shell return to us before the judgement day, as much as I believe in Jesus, prophet Mohammed (peace be up on on them) have continue the same message Jesus started, he fulfill the religion, please learn about Islam... you dont have to convert because its up to God not me! God be with you

It is amazing how you atheists are insulted by my words while I am disgusted by your acts of murder justified in the name of "it's my body and I can do whatever I want" or "we had to drop two atomic bombs on two cities so that we could lessen the number of GI's killed." Atheists do not have a moral bone in their body and I will tell you why. Because you are not accountable to NO ONE, not to your neighbor and not to God. Therefore, you live like an animal: survival of the fittest! Or "Do whatever it takes to get the job done."

Morals do not come from atheism. Morals come from Christianity. There are bad Christians and I may be one of them in your opinion. But when I see the disgusting things that athiests or bad Christians do, then I am more than convinced that there is a God. Why? Because I can see it!

By the way, not all religions are the same. I would never kill a muslim. But a muslim, in the name of God, would slit my throat in a instint and be considered a good muslim. A Christian could slit someone's throat, but they would always be considered an bad Christian. An Atheist could slit someone's throat and they could say they were hungry.

It is not about hating other people's religions or other people's opinions. What it is all about is the truth of what religions and people stand for.

When MAGNOLIA SIMM responded to my question, "Where are the fanatic Christians" she mentioned only the less than .00000001% abortion bombers that are Christians. She did not have it inside of her to mention the Sisters and Priests that have dedicated their entire life (fanatics) in providing care for the sick, the elderly, the ignorant, the hurt and wounded.

It is also interesting that she never mentioned the pedophile priests. But then again, she knows that they are in line with all those who do not believe in eternal condemnation for their evil acts.

Independent4: You are the reason why I debate on this silly network. I am not going to change your mind. I am not that niave. I remember getting into arguments with those who knew they were wrong but so pride filled could never admit it. No, I am writing because there will be many people who will look at your answers and look at mine. They will be the ones that will be able to decide who has the better arguments.

From you and your buddies, they have seen people write that Hitler died a Catholic! :-) They will see that Christians are just as "fanatical" as Muslims! :-) They will see that Atheists have morals that come form no where :-)

But they will also see my responses. They can choose for themselves what to believe, but if they have some logic and brains, they will choose well: The Truth.

Sweetness:

Please be sure before you assume you know my religion and background. I prefer the Buddhist way of life, which is much more tolerant and loving than your religion it appears

Of all the religions I looked into when I left the Catholic Church, I most identified with Buddhism. I love the book "Everyday Zen" by Charlotte Joko Beck about how to take Buddhist elements and put them into your everyday life.

Esno:

Magnolia SImms: I am so sorry If I have yet to understand your position. You may speak about how I ridicule you, but you ridicule yourself when you write. Again, let me give you an example.

I in no way have ridiculed myself. I believe differently from you. You in turn call me a FOOL (emphasis yours). I don't think you're a fool for believing differently from me. I just think you're different, and different doesn't mean wrong. That's the big difference between you and me. I'm willing to accept your difference, and you mock mine.

You say that your parents taught you right from wrong, but you didn't need a Church to tell you so. First of all, where did your parents learn right from wrong? It is interesting that they sent you to a Catholic School. So, I may be wrong, but I would assume that someone along your animal line (don't be offended, if you are an atheist, then you believe that humans are no more than animals) was a Catholic or subscribed to the Catholic or Christian faith once upon a time?

You seriously call me an animal, and then expect me to not be offended? Really? That's basically saying that I don't deserve human rights that you do only because I don't believe in God. What IndependentThinker said was right. People with your attitude are why people leave the church. That's one reason why I left the Church. Ignorant people that believed their beliefs made them better than others. By calling me an animal, you're showing that you're just like those that I left the church to avoid.

My mother is a non-practicing Catholic. She is a confirmed Catholic but does not go to church. My father never went to church my entire life. He comes from a Catholic family, but never practiced. The reason I went to CCD is because of my grandparents. My mother and father we kind enough to expose me to religion, and then allow me to make my own choices about what to believe and what not to believe.

The reasons I left the Catholic Church are numerous, but they mainly branched around the intolerant views of homosexuals, the fact that I should need to confess my sins to another human who is just as capable of sin as I am, and the Church's stance on birth control. I couldn't follow a religion if I didn't believe in all aspects of it. I'm not the type of person to just go through the motions. I have to believe it all, or none. I chose none.

You want to tell me that your parents taught you right from wrong and that they got it from their parents who got from their parents and never got it from any Christian God. Correct? Ok.

Yes, my parents taught me right from wrong. Some of those teachings corresponded with the ideals of the Catholic Church. But they also told me to be kind and understanding of those that are different from me, and while I may disagree, there's no reason to be nasty about it. I didn't learn that from Catholicism or Christianity. I saw the opposite from some people. And I saw others that were tolerant. And it made me realize that no religion has all fo the answers. So I chose no religion.

The problem with your logic is first of all it is unbelieveable.

How so?

Second, your concept of right and wrong is personal. It is based on nothing other than what "you feel" to be right and what "you feel" to be wrong.

And how is your concept of right and wrong any different? Just because you have some commandments that give you the basics, all of your morals are good? There have been many different interpretations of the Bible, and of the message it gives. Some Christians are intolerant of homosexuals, others are more tolerant. Who is right? How do you know your interpretation is the right one, and therefore all of your morals are the right ones? You personally take your interpretation and bring it into your life. I do the same thing, except I use real world experience rather than the Bible. It's the same concept.

Do you understand? That's why, you learned what hurt you but you never learned what hurt YOU DO! Because you are your own god! You decide for yourself, even when you are blinded by emotions, sentiments, feelings, etc... what will be right and wrong for you!

How is this harmful? Simple. By extending your right (let say in the case of abortion) you take away the right of another (the baby). What you considered to be right, may not be considered right for another - and they may actually pay for it as well!

And the same could be said for your morals. What your Bible says is the right thing to do may not be the right thing for me. But because you have a book and a church to back you up, you're automatically right? And abortion is a separate issue. Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I'm pro-abortion. I would love to see the number of abortions drop, or stop all together.

Hitler believed that what he was doing was good. Stalin believed that what he was doing was good. Usama bin Laden beleived that what he was doing was good. All those who murder in God's name believe they are doing what is good. All those who murder without God's name beleive they are doing what is good.

So I don't see how this is any different than what you're saying. You're saying that a God needs to dictate to everyone what they're morals are, so therefore everyone should believe in God. But the problem is, not everyone knows what God wants, and they interpret what they think is his message however they feel like it, and then justify their actions by it.

What did Jesus say? Love your enemy. This is why we have people who are able to forgive. An atheist has no reason to forgive anyone.There is no eternal justice. There is no eternal reward.

Seriously? You think us atheists just walk around saying "Since there's no afterlife, who cares about others?!" It's not like that at all. Yes, I don't answer to a higher power, other than the law of this country. I don't believe God or Jesus or anyone is watching me. And I certainly don't believe that any God could be cruel enough to send a good person who does good things to eternal damnation for the sole reason of not worshipping Him. I forgive people if I'm wronged because it's the right thing to do, not because some God says I should.

This is the reason why priest are the same as atheist pedophiles. They believe there is no eternal justice. So, they could care less what others feel or experience. And if one day the law were to change, and allow infants to be murdered because they were born defective, or that we could marry animals because we felt like it. Would it mean then that it is right? It is good? It is ok?

Why would anyone say that killing defective people would be okay? Atheists don't believe that, and if you think we do, you have some serious misconceptions about us.

When men and women decide by vote what will be and what will not be, then we run the risk of never knowing what is good or bad, right or wrong, holy or immoral.

And how is it decided what's right and wrong on whose interpretation of what holy book? Why is your holy book more right than someone else's?

Who is to say that everything I mentioned above won't happen? You? No. But the Christian God does not believe that murdering an innocent human being will ever be morally accceptable. The Christian God also does not believe that man is an animal but that he is capable of being a Saint, which means in the Christian God, to lay down your life for another.

And atheists are not capable of laying down their lives for others? I know it's wrong to kill people. I wouldn't want someone to kill me, so I am certainly not going to do it to another person. You have some seriously twisted views of what an atheist is. Perhaps you should actually try to get to know some before assuming you know all about us.

I would gladly lay my life down for others, especially my family.

What is the proof that there is no God? You have none. So, your position is based on faith, not on intellect because there are plenty of intelligent individuals who believe in God. So your faith that there is no God is not a scientific fact. Correct?

You're right, my position is based on faith, and had you actually read my post two posts ago instead of just skimming it and taking the parts you liked to counter, you would have seen that I already stated that. I know that my lack of belief in God is just that, a belief. I have no scientific proof that he doesn't exist, just as you have no scientific proof that he does exist. Which is why I've said if someone offers me proof he does exist, I'd be willing to re-examine my standpoint.

My proof to you that God exists is that there is a moral code that is imposed upon the human heart, not for survival purposes but for progress to be made which means for man to come together. He doesn't need to in order to survive, but it is best that he does in order to live.

That's not proof, that's your belief. And if this moral code is imposed on the human heart, why is that humans kill each other and do abhorrent things to each other? Why is it that some people act as if they don't have this moral code imposed on them?

You know, you were mocking me by saying that how did I just inherrently know that hurting someone was wrong, that I just KNEW, and yet you're saying that humans have a moral code born onto them. Aren't you now claiming something that you just mocked me for a few posts ago?

When MAGNOLIA SIMM responded to my question, "Where are the fanatic Christians" she mentioned only the less than .00000001% abortion bombers that are Christians. She did not have it inside of her to mention the Sisters and Priests that have dedicated their entire life (fanatics) in providing care for the sick, the elderly, the ignorant, the hurt and wounded.

Because you didn't ask about that. You asked about the fanatics, and I answered your question. I'm not going to answer a question you didn't ask. I've known some very nice Catholics and Christians. The two priests in my congregation when I was growing up were two very nice, very kind men. They were community leaders, helped out the needy, and were always available for someone in need, whether they were part of the church or not. One of my best friends is a devout Baptist, and I've been to her church where they have accepted me with open arms, even though I don't share their beliefs.

I'm not saying that all Christians are wrong, or all Catholics are wrong or whatever. Had you actually read my posts, I was saying that no religious group is better than another, and that they all have people in their groups that go against their ideals. You twisted it into something like I was attacking Christianity. I like the ideals of Christianity, like loving your fellow man. I see nothing wrong with that message. It's some of the other messages that come from Christians, which may or may not reflect the views of the church, that I'm not especially fond of, which is why I am now an atheist.

Maxeemas

Lucy1 : no one said and I never said to die for God! I agree that God is mercyful but listen to yourself... God died for us... God cannot die and will not forgive anyone who would say things like that about him, please help yourself before its too late, God have clearified that confusion in the book (Koren) about Jesus!! that he didnt die in the cross and he shell return to us before the judgement day, as much as I believe in Jesus, prophet Mohammed (peace be up on on them) have continue the same message Jesus started, he fulfill the religion, please learn about Islam... you dont have to convert because its up to God not me! God be with you

Thank you for your concern. I have accepted Jesus as my savior, you accepted Mohammad. I believe Jesus (God the Son) died for my sins. I believe He rose from the dead on the 3rd day conquering death. We can pray for each other, and pray that God realizes we are just human who have put our faith hope and trust in Him. We should also pray for each other because we are all being used by the evil in this world for their gains. You ask me to learn about Islam, and I ask you to learn about Christianity. We could all help each other understand more. Peace to you also and God be with you as well.

Thank you again.

By the way, not all religions are the same. I would never kill a muslim. But a muslim, in the name of God, would slit my throat in a instint and be considered a good muslim. A Christian could slit someone's throat, but they would always be considered an bad Christian. An Atheist could slit someone's throat and they could say they were hungry.

Oh really? You need to do more research since there is such a thing as murder and punishment for murder in Islam and it applies to muslims and non-muslims. Muslims aren't supposed to get preferential treatment just because they're muslim. If they're in wrong, they're in the wrong.

If you just happened to be minding your own business and were murdered it would be considered murder whatever religion the person followed or if they followed no religion. You're so judgmental and clearly without much knowledge. Do you also accost people in stores to try to convert them or tell them they're going to hell? I find those people quite scary and they're so sneaky.

Magnolia Simms: What is right? What is wrong? Who decides? No God means there is no such thing as right or wrong. It means we are only animals. Why can we not then act like animals? That is, survival of the fittest?

The reason why I say the Christian God is the Greatest is for one simple reason: the revelation of Jesus Christ who said, God is Love and God is a Father. No other religion calls God love or a Father.

I am not being mean to you or rude. If you do not believe in God, then there is no reason for you to hold any moral truths. No reason. Absolutely no reason other than the fact that your actions would be illegal.

You are not an atheist. You believe in Good and Bad. The only atheist I have ever respected in my life is Nietzsche. He truly was an atheist. He believed in No God, therefore No good or evil. He made sense. His work runs logically. Your words do not make sense. You claim to be an atheist and yet you still believe in good and evil.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I do know many more Catholics than you do. They are all loving because they have allowed themselves to imitate Jesus Christ, who is love.

On the subject of homosexuality, the Church does not condemn a person for being a homosexual. In fact, they are as much loved as any person. But we cannot say that it is ok, and to adopt children in a loving homosexual relationship is ok. Why? Because every child has the natural right to be with a mother and a father. Just because we say something is wrong does not mean that person is hated. NEVER! In fact, I have many people who I know that are homosexual. They are caring and loving and hurting.

With regards to Confession: I cannot believe that you went to a CAtholic School and you never learned that Confession is the only place in the world where you can open your heart and the seal of what you say remains forever. You are never judged in Confession. You are loved, regardless of what you have done. The Catholic Church is so different from human institutions. You can break every rule and instead of being escorted out, you are embraced and welcomed back. So, spare me your ignorance and dislike for something you have not experienced in years! Also, it is what the Lord Jesus did himself. He heard peoples confessions (adulterous woman, the tax collector, the sinners and he said to them the same thing...Go in peace. Your sins are forgiven,and sin no more). In your world, there is no such thing as a sin.

Unfortunately, I will have to go. I am praying in front of an abortion clinic tonight where we will hear from others hateful, vulgar things but they will never hear the same from us.

Actually the Vatican & Pope, the head of the Catholic Church, has condemned homosexuality saying its morally evil,(but not their priests molesting boys). Why because that's been a part of their culture for 100's of years. As a good Catholic your not suppose to pick and choose what Vatican laws you want to follow. They say because sex if for procreation, what about a woman who can't or doesn't want children? Are they morally evil too then?

So are you saying that if you are part of another religion that you can't have morals because of not believing in Jesus or your god? That believing in your god is the only thing that makes you a moral person? Passing judgement on others isn't a moral act. I have morals because I believe in Karma, what goes around comes around. I'm a good caring person to others because I want to be treated as one. I enjoy people, even ones that see the world differently, even if they're in my life for just a flash. You can learn something from everyone, even if its how not to be. Hubris isn't one of the ways to be. Jesus even accepted others who didn't believe in him, he won them over not by being snarky or browbeating them to believe how he does, but by leading by example.

http://cleosunshine.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/desiderata.gif

http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/footsteps.htm

Unfortunately, I will have to go. I am praying in front of an abortion clinic tonight where we will hear from others hateful, vulgar things but they will never hear the same from us.

Well that figures! You do realize that the clinics tend to be women's clinics that do many other things than abortions right? I use one for my health needs. I'm accosted every time I go there because the people out front, like you, feel that they know everything and want to impose their believes on all walking in there. I usually tell them that this is the 10th time I've been there & that number grows since I am telling the truth, it tends to send them all into a tizzy. How much after care do you provide for the girls whose minds you change?

BMette

Well articulated post!

Judging by some of the comments America has some Taliban issues of their own. It's great comfort to live in a land, however, where better minds can and usually do prevail. The fools can speak their mind, and they do so loudly, but I am of the opinion that wise men learn more from the fools than the fools from the wise.

Lucy 1 : God Bless you too, as you said lets continue praying.. it s always the right thing to do, may God accept our prayers and have mercy on us Amen

WOW! You should REALLY do some research for yourself and stop believing those saying what you want to hear. There is NO Constitutional statement on "separation of church and state" it was a statement in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to a Baptist church assuring them that the government had no right interfering in their worship. It is DEFINITELY not "the basis the country was founded on". The very fact that you insist "both, any and all religions" be kept out of your face thrusts YOUR religion (atheism) directly into mine.

bill, there really is no statement of 'seperation'. This was the attitude by very Religious men to keep the Government from controlling people's beliefs like England could AT THE TIME! Very intelligent as it has lasted all these years, for all the good and bad, we are still allowed (to a certain degree) to express our beliefs and opinions as we feel.

Should you choose to 'keep religion out of your face' so be it. Just don't pay attention to any of it, that's your right and your opinion. by trying to force people to keep to your opinion, you are doing exactly what the Fore Fathers were trying to prevent. I would suggest that you personally let everyone you know that believes in any religion that you want nothing at all to do with them. I think you would find yourself very lonely. OR.. you can accept that others have opinions and learn to deal with it.

Why don't you guys spend a little time reading Thomas Paine; it is EXACTLY the basis upon which this country was founded! I have no problem whatsoever with religious people, I'm very religious myself in my own way. However, I don't wear it on my sleeves and it pisses me off to no end when others try to force their religion on me or establish goverment policies based on it.

People are free (or should be) to believe in what they wish: just keep it out of government

The problem is, Bill ~ not everyone agrees with this concept. Certainly not Islamists. If they can entrench themselves in our government, they will ~ or anywhere else they can lay a foundation for their "jihad" in the United States. This is not unique to Islam. We recently saw an effort by fundamentalist Christians to impose their doctrine on us all by way of promoted legislation. They have not totally withdrawn from that effort, to accomplish through legislation what they cannot achieve from the pulpit. While the tactics differ and the message is at variance, the goal is common among both entities.

Jim, the only people that disagree with that concept are the religious people. Be they Christian or Islamic. We NEED to keep ALL religion out of law making.

Umm your 75% right, however what the founders feared more wasen't religion in government but Government in religion.

Bill,

First of all it would not be in your face if you would have just read the article and moved along... You decided to join in by making the comment.

Next of all, if Shariah Law continues in this country unchecked, it could very well involve you and your family on a very personal level.

To keep religion out of government would eliminate all government workers, even the atheists. All sides of the debate are involved with government, the fight over abortion demonstrates that, it is part of the democratic process. It is the reason we have become so PC, so as not to offend. News Flash - everybody is still offended, and have become even more overly sensitive.

I don't understand you civilians.

Soldiers of all colors and religions fight and die side by side, and consider their fellow soldiers "brothers" of a shared experience". What matters to them is the ability to do your job, everybody blleds the same color. Yes, we have had instances of fellow soldiers turning on us, but overall the military services have led this nation in integration, tolerance and acceptance. I'm still attending reunions with troops I served with over forty years ago, and I'm not the only one attending (if you get my point).

Have we all turned into SCREAMING POSTERS instead of intellectual debaters?

Uncommon Sense-1053859

WOW! You should REALLY do some research for yourself and stop believing those saying what you want to hear. There is NO Constitutional statement on "separation of church and state" it was a statement in a letter from Thomas Jefferson to a Baptist church assuring them that the government had no right interfering in their worship. It is DEFINITELY not "the basis the country was founded on". The very fact that you insist "both, any and all religions" be kept out of your face thrusts YOUR religion (atheism) directly into mine.

So let me guess - this country was founded on christian principals despite the founding fathers all being free masons? LOL!

@FLYARMY......Well said Sir! You are correct on many levels. Thank you for your service and intelligent post.

Still serving....USAF.

Uncommon Sense...Perhaps it's you who should read your Constitution. According to Amendment I of the US Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting religion , or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people to peaceably assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

First Amendment....not Thomas Jefferson and not a letter thereof.

Founding Fathers were mostly Episcopalian, or Unitarian.

mrk...Some were also Masons. Which shows that no matter what the number of religious varieties, their main intent was a united country under one flag and one government of the people, for the people, by the people.

Is that what our politicians today are practicing? Or is it more like for the party, by the party, of the party? When politicians do not work together for the betterment of the common good of ALL of the people, they do not belong in office.

1.5 Billion Muslims is the current estimate for the global Muslim population.

So, if most people, including myself, WANT to believe that "MOST Muslims" are truly Peaceful, Kind, Charitable and Loving... exactly WHAT is the problem?

First, to be completely FAIR, we definitely need to clarify the word MOST in possible or likely PERCENTAGES.

For example, let's suppose, for the sake of discussion, that MOST = 99%?

Based on that estimate, it also seems "more than fair and reasonable to believe" that the remaining ONE percent of Muslims would definitely subscribe to the radical fundamentalist beliefs of the "terrorists who have high-jacked Islam".

How much is 1.0% of 1.5 Billion?

It is the answer to that question that SHOULD CONCERN EVERYONE...

FIFTEEN MILLION...

Yes, FIFTEEN MILLION people, primarily "young Muslim men" who believe in and subscribe to the ultra-radical terrorist principles that "suicide bombing" in order to kill other "innocent non-Muslim men, women and children" across the world is their "religious duty?"

15 Million Suicidal Soldiers EQUALS a RIDICULOUSLY powerful Army, especially when compared against ANY OTHER MILITARY on EARTH!

Sure, the USA and other countries have their own "extremely dedicated & highly trained 'special forces, SEALS and Black Ops types of soldiers', and they would not hesitate to give up their life for their fellow soldiers; no question.

The fact is... NO country has FIFTEEN MILLION of these soldiers. ALL the countries of the world COMBINED do not have FIFTEEN MILLION of such highly trained specialized soldiers.

Whatever the "combined totals" are... are ANY of these "specialized soldiers" trained to COMMIT SUICIDE BOMBINGS on INNOCENT CIVILIANS?????????

Not really... of course NOT!

I only used the "ONE percent figure of FIFTEEN MILLION" to make a specific point, and the point is, you can BET YOUR LIFE that a FAR MORE REALISTIC figure is WELL BEYOND ONE PERCENT. One percent is so conservative a figure, it is ridiculous to even use, but it does CLARIFY my point.

Regardless of how WONDERFUL MOST followers of Islam are... we are NOT worried about MOST.

Remember, our American Revolution actually began with only 27 men!

The RADICALIZED ISLAMIC REVOLUTION the world faces is FAR BEYOND what even the most educated people of the world could have imagined.

Ongoing Polls and Surveys taken among young male Muslim students on American university campuses across the USA reveal that between 25% to over 40% BELIEVE that "SUICIDE BOMBINGS of innocent civilians are JUSTIFIED"... and that is right here in the good old USA?

So, how HIGH do you think "those percentages" run at European and Asian universities? Those percentages at "Middle East universities" easily exceed 60, 70 or 80%.

The bottom line is that my original "ONE percent figure of FIFTEEN MILLION really is RIDICULOUSLY SMALL. Our world is very possibly facing a radicalized, suicide-bombing, terrorist force as high as 30, 40, 50 million or more? Regardless, and for the sake of discussion, that 15 Million alone is still far more than our world can handle for the foreseeable future.

In a sense, the religion of Islam is in the midst of its own INTERNAL STRUGGLE with the RADICAL TERRORISTS who have high-jacked it. How many innocent @!$%#e and Sunni men, women and children continue to be PERSECUTED, BRUTALIZED and SLAUGHTERED by men "claiming to be fighting for Allah?"

When we consider the "general condition" of just one country, Pakistan, who has over 100 Nuclear Bombs, combined with the extremely high percentage of their own population made up of hard-core, ultra-radical terrorists... that only adds to the threat of global destruction, anarchy and annihilation our world faces. It is also only logical to believe countries like China or India will NOT wait until Muslim terrorists get their hands on those nukes?

At the end of the day, the issue is growing at an alarming pace. ALL PEOPLE and ALL RELIGIONS on our entire planet face an OVERWHELMING CHALLENGE on a scale that very few either realize or are just afraid to admit?

When all hope is lost, many people often say, "Well, all we can do now is PRAY?"

Maybe, just maybe "PRAYING FIRST" isn't such a bad idea?

peace :-)

Actually the CIA and CDI estimates there are roughly around 20,000 radical Islamic terrorists IN THE ENTIRE WORLD. Maybe 50,000 if you are stretching it.

It's roughly around 0.001%~0.003% of the entire muslim population (muslim population is estimated between 1.5bil to 2bil). That's not even 1%, it's one-one thousandth of a percent.

http://wakeuppeople1.newsvine.com/_news/2010/10/25/5348816-0001-of-muslim-world-are-terrorists

When people start looking up factual numbers instead of media hype and misinformation, they see reality is very far from what they think it is.

Personally I think your wrong. If you are quoting a newsvine article your really wrong.

So your basing your numbers on what the CIA knows of? Did they take polls? We are talking about the same CIA that didn't see 9/11 coming? Or perhaps the same CIA that blew up the mosque in Iran creating the Ayatollah? Or perhaps you mean the CIA that funded started and trained Bin Laden terrorist guerrilla warfare against the soviets? Do you mean THAT CIA?

Say what you want about "normal peaceful muslims" but I have seen first hand how peaceful they can be. On 9/11 right after the towers fell there were Riots in Paterson NJ about 5 minutes from where I lived 15 minutes outside Manhatten. Know why? 1/3 of Patterson is roughly Islamic and they were outside celebrating and cheering the fall of the towers and the death of 3000 americans. They were out in the streets parading and burning flags and praising Allah. It wasn't one or ten or a dozen, there were HUNDREDS of them praising Allah for attacking this country. The riots were because the other 2/3 (african americans and puerto ricans) grabbed baseball bats and started stomping the muslims back to their own houses.

Personally I think your wrong. If you are quoting a newsvine article your really wrong.

LOL, it's my own article!!! I wrote it! Would you prefer I cut and paste it here for you?

So your basing your numbers on what the CIA knows of? Did they take polls? We are talking about the same CIA that didn't see 9/11 coming? Or perhaps the same CIA that blew up the mosque in Iran creating the Ayatollah? Or perhaps you mean the CIA that funded started and trained Bin Laden terrorist guerrilla warfare against the soviets? Do you mean THAT CIA?

Yup. The same CIA that FOUND BIN LADEN even though the Pakistanis were trying to hide him from us!!! And by the way, they did see 9/11 coming. GW chose to ignore THAT intelligence briefing.

Who would know how many there are moreso than the organization that created them and trained them and now fights against them?

You may not WANT there to only be 20,000... but that is reality. It is what our military and intelligence community has found. You can kick and scream and cry all you want.

Say what you want about "normal peaceful muslims" but I have seen first hand how peaceful they can be. On 9/11 right after the towers fell there were Riots in Paterson NJ about 5 minutes from where I lived 15 minutes outside Manhatten. Know why? 1/3 of Patterson is roughly Islamic and they were outside celebrating and cheering the fall of the towers and the death of 3000 americans. They were out in the streets parading and burning flags and praising Allah. It wasn't one or ten or a dozen, there were HUNDREDS of them praising Allah for attacking this country. The riots were because the other 2/3 (african americans and puerto ricans) grabbed baseball bats and started stomping the muslims back to their own houses.

Interesting... and yet not one single article or mention of it ANYWHERE. No police reports, no local papers, nothing.

I just called the Paterson police department to confirm this story. They put me on hold for a couple minutes, and then came back and said they have no record of any riot taking place or being called in on that day. Call them yourself if you don't believe me!

Paterson Police Department

111 Broadway
Paterson, NJ 07505

973-321-1111

http://www.patersonnj.gov/department/index.php?fDD=5-0

The only places that mentions the riot are forums, personal blogs and Islamaphobe sites... and most of the forums say it is fake as well... Are you sure you were there and witnessed it or were you just recounting the story from "hear-say"? I mean if the police station has no record of it, well...

The problem is, who's god? Founding Fathers asked for god's blessing, not his interference and direction.

Viet Sem Fi:

You're not thinking very well. The real "key" is liberty and justice for all...that's what you fought for, is it not?

How you (or anybody else) relates to "god" is up to you/them privately...it is an issue between you/them and their "god".

American law is based on the concept that the established governing rules should treat everyone fairly and even-handedly. American law does NOT stipulate that one must adhere to any "accepted" or "acceptable" notion of god.

Your emphasis on "under God" is merely knee-jerk phrase-mongering.

under god was not in the original version. not inserted by our founders but by 50's style mccarthyism.

hey Viet, "Under God" was not added until the 1950's. It was added because Christians wanted something to show we were not communist. SO yet again the Christian religion forces changes on all Americans.

GET RID OF ALL RELIGION and most of the worlds problems go away.

You really believe that most of the worlds problems will disappear without religion. You are mistaken my friend, man will always find new reasons to hate and kill. Religion just makes it convenient at the time.

Under God was added in the 1950s.

Money from the get go with the founding fathers has always had the phrase "In God We Trust."

Dude . Who's god . I say the god of what's happening now . That way we can evolve our religion with the changing times .

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

- "Establishment Clause" of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution

End of discussion.

mrk-3060962

I am no expert on coins or currency, but I have in front of me a penny, dated 1808 and no place on the coin is God referenced. It shows the date and the word "Liberty" on the front and "United States of America", on the back, I have a 1928, five dollar bill and there is no reference anywhere on the note to God. I have a 1943 half dollar here that says, " In God we Trust", beside lady liberty on the front. My 1889 Morgan silver dollar has " In God we Trust", on it. God has not been referenced from the get go on our money.

EVERYBODY: It's 'WHOSE' God, not 'WHO'S' God. And the point is correct -- Who is God's spokeman? Not everone agrees on that point...

Hiheels, Soros is a major hater of the USA and what it stands for. This is a very interesting article.

http://commonamericanjournal.com/?p=28212

http://merriemarie.amplify.com/2011/02/21/george-soros-obama-has-lost-control-of-americas-economic-agenda/

Glad to see everyone enlighted this Marine on how "Under God' came into play during the era of McCarthyism and the Red scare.

Today it is the Islam scare, which is a joke perpetuated by cowards just like in the 1950s. Sure we might get some solo muslim nutjobs like yesterday in NY, but we are just as likely to see a radical leftwing or rightwing nut do the same thing.

In the end we would be so better off if we could have all entered the 21st century without our religous superstitions. In the end Christianity is no better then Islam over the course of history both have done great and horrible deeds in the name of Invisible Man.

Nothing wrong with faith, but it should first be in oneself, one's family and chosen friends.

BUT when it comes down to it you have a better chance winning the powerball then getting killed by a radical islamic terrorist.

Actually, Christians and Muslims (along with Jews) worship the same god; that is, the god of Abraham. So, regardless of the fact that part was added not long ago, Viet Semp's point is nonexistant. I'm not even sure what it was supposed to mean in the first place. God is not exclusively Christian. I find it hard to believe that he would be so petty as to condemn anyone for calling him by the wrong name.