You don't need congress to approve military actions. Only for decorations of war...... But shows what the average American knows about our own government system. let me guess? Democrat?

The role of Congress has been in debate since Truman, it just depends on which side you want to take. My only hope here is that our President lives up to his statement that we (US) will wash our hands on this in a few days. I for one would like to see all our troops brought back from the ME as we have sacrificed enough in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Yes and we all remember how Obama acted when Bush took out Sadam. He thought it was terrible. He is now president and it is ok to take out someone. Why is he such a hypoctrit? He can't blame this on Bush, he took action. We will be there for years and it will be Obama's fault. If this wasn't time to campaign for re-election this would have never happened.

The War Powers Act allows the president to take military action so long as Congress is notified of such action within 48 hours. Troops are then allowed to remain engaged for a period of up to 60 days during which time the president may chose to seek approval from Congress for extended authorization or must begin the withdrawal of troops from action such withdrawal to be completed within 30 days of the end of the initial 60 days of engagement.

GimDan, I don't think that you understand the separation of powers in our government. Congress, indeed, has the power of the purse strings and can stop a war merely by refusing to fund it. Remember that President Ford begged Congress to fund South Viet Nam during the final months of the war. He was forced to withdraw our troops as Congress vetoed his request and he was not able to over-rule them. The Viet Nam war ended in a complete failure after our military had won the battles on the ground, in the sea, and had established air superiority. It was a waste of time in the end because the domino effect predicted by many political scientists of the day actually did happen.

The action in Libya is NOT an action on behalf of the "so-called" freedom fighters but an attempt by the banking and oil cartels to secure their assets in the region. In the end, I'm certain that Islamic Fundamentalists will seize the initiative, establish another fundamentalist Islamic Republic and become a new breeding ground for Muslim terrorists creating more havoc for the West.

Let Saudi Arabia "cut the head off of the snake," and take charge as leader of the Arab world. We should not become involved in any more foreign entanglements in the Middle East. It has proven to be a complete waste of time and it is bankrupting our country. We would be better off investing government money in developing technology that can pump oil out of the gulf and out of our wilderness areas safely and environmentall sound processes, technology, and development of alternative fuels. This is a lot of nonsense. I don't want to pay for it anymore.

"Decorations" of war? A "Decoration of War" would be like...the Iron Cross, the Silver Star, the Purple Heart.... All my tax money for education and look....

and we can't have it both ways, world leader or second rate

Just look at the UN Nations involved in the attack to figure out "why" Libya is being attacked. France and Canada have both been against the U.S. aggression in the middle east by America for the last decade....until now. This is fight over oil...pure and simple, not one of democracy or freedom for Libya. The world has known for years that Libya was responsible for the Pan Am bombing and the Marine Base bombing and did NOTHING....Now that a few of the UN Members are at the risk of having oil interruptions out of Libya they enroll us to fix it. Where was France during Iraq or Afghanistan? Exactly.....

Paul West! I couldn't have said it better myself. You are correct sir!

Congress has the power to declare war. But the United States doesn't rely on declarations of war to justify the use of military power. In 1973, Congress gave the President authorization to use military force for up to 60 days without their prior approval.

This is an international response, with the US joining Arab, European, and other nations to prevent a despot from killing his own countrymen. Taking Gadhafi does not require the same level of involvement as our interventions in Iraq or Afghanistan. It seems likely that the world will allow the Libyan people to attempt their own nation-building on the heels of decades on dictatorial rule.

The best thing that can be said of Gadhafi is that for the last two years he has tried to build nuclear weapons or overtly engage in terrorist attacks outside his own country. Before that, he did both.

Mene mene tekel upharsin.

Saddam? We liberated Iraqis for over a trillion dollars, lost the lives of well over 3,000 American soldiers, and killed over 100,000 Iraqi citizens in the process. We are still there after eight years of civil battles and the unwelcome intrusion of al Queida.

Establishing the no fly zone and halting the sadistic indiscriminate slaughter of civilians is incomparable. We are part of a coalition, not the leaders of aggression by indiscriminate warfare, cutely known as Shock and Awe. We have neither the tactics or the meas to destroy a nation in order to get rid of one autocratic brute. This time we first exhausted all other channels, verified the need, are using only technology not available to other nations, built international consensus and commitment, detailed clear and specific objectives, used purposeful restraint, and are not heading the agenda.

Unlike Vietnam and Iraq, we are not destroying a country and its people to fight a threat that does not exist. (monolithic Soviet style communism or terrorist havens). The WMD was created by the wild massive destruction of a country.

... for the last two years he has NOT tried to build nuclear weapons or overtly engage in terrorist attacks outside his own country. Before that, he did both.

Please excuse the typo.

Stunned,

Let Saudi Arabia "cut the head off of the snake," and take charge as leader of the Arab world.

The only problem with that is the Arabs are missing the leadership gene in their DNA. That must be it. The only way they are able to obtain and control sovereign borders is through coercion and violence. That's the only way I can explain it.

An army of sheep led by a lion would defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.
-- Arab proverb

Paul West-541891

What was to attack on Iraq about? Control of oil but there was no fighting Saddam from the people in Iraq. Bush wanted the oil to flow faster from Iraq but didn't want Saddam to get the money for it plus the revenge factor since Saddam tried to kill his daddy.

Now you say the reason for going into Libya is for the oil? The fighting for the oil would be the rebels against Gadhafi and if it really was for the oil, it would make more sense to let Gadhafi squash the rebellion to keep the oil flowing. Your logic does not make sense. If all they cared about was the oil, they would still have to pay the same for the oil no matter who pumped it out of the ground.

Simply as it can be said..

Obama committed an unprovoked act of war afgainst another sovereign nation.

he is sending our military to die to save some N Africans.

That is illegal and totally unaccepatable.

You have to go to Fox to find it out that is the only place that is teeling it.

6 democratic senators are talking about impeachment and of course getting lots of help from conservatives.

The possibilities are good Obam has allowed his megalomania to take him to a place, he can't get back from.

Larry,

You can't use logic on the right. They never let facts get in the way of their agenda.

Larry...The world powers have put many middle eastern leaders in place and will remove them when they don't cooperate with the UN's lust for oil. The fact that you think the "Libyan Freedom Fighters" are on "our side" and simply want to form a peaceful democratic society in Libya is a bit naive. This is about control of oil for the Nations that need it and don't have their own resources. If the UN Nations participating in this campaign, and all of the other "Freedom Fights" simply told the truth about "WHY" they are really their...they would receive no citizen support for their covert control of the oil supply. Before OPEC was formed there was no Western intervention to form democracies in that region.

wilburn, which six senators are contemplating impeachment of Obama? Unprovoked act of war against a sovereign nation? Are you talking about Iraq or Afghanistan?

Wilburn, thank you for showing everyone the type of person that watches Fox news.

Varmit,

Please actually read more news articles before making the claim that we are trying to take anyone out. The US was quite specific about that NOT being the goal. Unless Gadhafi is hiding in one of the air fields he is not the target.

Everybody, stop and listen to the background noise in the news for a minute. We all know that there were popular uprisings in Saudi Arabia, Baharain, and Yhemen just two weeks ago. People had taken to the streets in a "Day of Rage" to protest their corrupt governments. Last week, we learned that Saudi Arabia had sent a battalion of their best troops to aid the King of Baharain in putting down his popular uprising. They had loaded weapons and used force and coercion. It also happened in Egypt. The provisional government used force. "Freedom fighters" were telling western news agencies that there were hundreds of people missing and they suspected the military.

Today, with the fate of the world hanging in the balance in Japan as that nation struggles to recover from a horrific disaster, all we hear about is Libya, Libya, Libya. What happend to the "courageous freedom-fighters" in Saudi Arabia, Baharain, and Yhemen? Where are the missing "courageous freedom-fighters in Egypt?

How many people are affected by the nuclear disaster in Japan. What is the "coalition" of courageous western allies doing to help that nation to contain a world threat that promises to exceed the threat caused by Chernoble?

Doesn't anybody notice that we have almost a "news blackout" on those issues? All we get on those issues is two-week-old "news."

I'm not going to argue with any of you that Mr. G, should have stepped down decades ago but what we're witnessing here is NOT the liberation of Libya. What we're witnessing is the nacent formation of a fundamentalist Islamic Republic, right next door to Egypt--a country that our government and the governments of Europe have invested heavily in and have transferred our best technology to. I mean, the largest M1A1 Abrams Tank Factory is just outside of Cairo.

What are we going to do when Islamic Fundamentalists get hold of our advanced technology? How will we defeat them in their rise to power and, everyone please notice that they are hungry for it--they thirst for the power to project their religious views upon the entire world. They may not represent the majority of Muslims in the world but it is sufficient to say that it is these fundamentalist Muslims who are gradually being steered toward the advanced technology of the west as greedy corporate giants settle in closer and closer to them under the misguided impression that they will use the might of the west to control them.

These are "radical" political elements not "revolutioinary" elements. They did not "revolutionize" government in Iran they took that government back 700 years and made it a totalitarian and repressive regime and soon, they'll have a nuclear arsenal to go with those nifty new missles they've developed with the help of western technology.

Look how hard it is to unseat them once they're entrenched. The Taliban were on their way to developing chemical weapons when we felt the need to strike at them for 9/11. Now, they're dug into Afghanistan and Pakistan deeper than an Alabama tick on a dog's behind.

We should not become any more involved in the Middle East than we are at this moment. We have Israel to worry about, and Jordan too. Egypt is a real problem now with a vacuum created by the provisional government. The Muslim Brotherhood is looking for opportunities. In Iraq, their governemnt is gradually being compromised by forces loyal to Iran. Iran is also attempting to influence the government of Afghanistan.

We should contain these people and not let them spread their dysfunctional brand of fundamentalist, extremist religion rooted in an ancient political ideal that, one day, all of the people of the entire Earth would live under one religion--their religion. Not Islam as my neighbors practice it. No Islam as degenerate, serial killers use its principles to spread terror and succeed in their efforts at conquest.

Be careful!

Bruce, apparently you have NOT been reading the latest news. Wilburn is correct.

Paul- Answer the question. Which senators?

You don't need congress to approve military actions. Only for decorations of war...... But shows what the average American knows about our own government system. let me guess? Democrat?

I am no democrat... but let me ask you super intelligent NEO-CON big government republican warmonger something..

What other purpose is there to DECLARE WAR than to use MILLITARY ACTION? If you don't need to DECLARE WAR to use MILITARY ACTION, then WHY DECLARE WAR AT ALL and WHY have it in the CONSTITUTION?

If you don't think bombing targets is not an ACT of WAR then you are a fool.

You people are INSANE.

. The world has known for years that Libya was responsible for the Pan Am bombing and the Marine Base bombing and did NOTHING....Now that a few of the UN Members are at the risk of having oil interruptions out of Libya they enroll us to fix it. Where was France during Iraq or Afghanistan? Exactly.....

SPOT ON... nice to know there are still Americans with brains who get their history and news from places OTHER THAN msnbc and fox news...

6 democratic senators are talking about impeachment and of course getting lots of help from conservatives.

Yeah, yeah, (yawn). They also talked about impeaching both Bushes, Reagan, Carter, Nixon (who resigned in disgrace instead) and they DID impeach Clinton, but he was acquitted.

The real nut jobs are Blair, Sarkozy, Berlusconi and Bush who shook hands with him, hugged him and welcomed him back into the 'good ole boy circle' even after they knew of his direct invlovement with the Panam bombing and other acts of terrorism in exchange for money and favors.
After years of coddling Mubarak and Saleh and Saudi monarchs etc. we now are dumping them like hot potatoes! We should have dumped them a long time ago. We have given even a joker like Putin a chance to mouth off against us as is they were saints. Not a good situation for us to be. The Europeans will get all the credit and we will be the scapegoats! Let the Europeans defend their own backyard!? North Africa is the 'Mexico' of Europe so why are we involved.
We need to take care of our own domestic agenda first.
The Republicans are a nut case too! First they accuse the administration of ambivalence and delays, now they want to know the'endgame' as if they know how to manage one !? What a bunch of idiots!

wilburn1942,

Relying on Fox News for the real story is like relying on a used car salesman to tell you what is wrong with the car he is selling you. You had better look for yourself to see what the deal is, or you are going to end up with a clunker on your hands.

There is no reason to rely on any single news source for what is going on in the world. You can read English versions of Al Jazeera online, go to AllAfrica.com, visit the BBC web site, look at Canadian newspapers online, etc.

Anybody who relies on any single source, let alone a propaganda machine like News Corp for all of their information is a fool.

So, Obama declared what, exactly? Oh, and look where he is right now, a 'working vacation' in Chile and Brazil. Making speeches justifying yet another military 'action' and his supporters saying great because he's 'liberating' people from a madman. So, spin away, Obama, the recepient of the Noble Peace Prize (an oxy-moron these days) now declares an un-declared war (shades of Viet Nam) and with the backing of a UN coalition (shades of Bush) bombs the crap out of civilians in order to 'protect' them from an evil dictator.

Like Janet Reno, who said that the reason they went after the Branch Davidians in Waco (an event that subsequently resulted in the death of 80 people, mostly women and children) was to protect the children from child abuse.

Stunned_at_sunset: You ought to be congratulated. Your well thought out and historically correct comments are a total breath of fresh air compared to some of the rubbish we have to endure on this site. Just one criticsm if I may. The Saudi's may well take over the arab world and appear to run it in a less confrontational manner to the west, but you are aware that sections of the royal family are actively financing terrorism right now? How do we overcome the support the king gives to those evil bastards?

The Grey Ghost very valid and on spot point. My thinking is this. The two major big threats to our Nation are. The Saudi royal family (due to all the money we send them via Oil)

Second only to China in which basically can only get their money back from the debts we owe them by an all out war. We are fairly close to bleed dry.
Once it makes no sense to ship product here the Chinese will call debts due.

WWIII what side do you think the Russians will support us or China?

Ten years and Osama Bin Laden is still free: so much for wars in the Middle East. We bankrupted the country to prove what?

Grey Ghost,

Thanks for your support. Yes, I am aware of the fact that some members of the Saudi Royal Family are actively supporting fundamentalist Islamic movements and terrorist activity. Israel has been complaining about the Saudi Royal Family on that account for quite some time. My point in couching this suggestion was to confront Arabs, in general, with a "day of reckoning." If the West could just manage to stay out of the Middle East all together, if would force the nations of that part of the world to reassess their policies.

Moreover, we are setting a very dangerous precedent when we interfere with such ferocity in the affairs of a sovereign state, recognized by the other Nations of the world, and one that has such valuable resources and a history of trading those resources on the International Markets. What Russia is complaining about is that dangerous precedent. By our actions, we are driving all of the other "nut-case" governments in the region to want to develop, purchase, or steal nuclear, biological, and chemical warfare technology in a desperate effort to establish a military regimen that includes weapons of mass destruction. They are desperate to defend their regimes and stay in power. Power always corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. In this regard, we are underwriting the "doomsday scenario."

I believe in a powerful military so I don't want our armed forces diminished in any way. But, we have a number of diplomatic options available to us at any given time and statecraft is a better enemy-management policy in situations where we have to deal with "strong-men" and "war-lords." We should only use our military might to defend our Natioinal Interests. Our national interests are not being served by encouraging every tin-pan, two-bit totalitarian regime in the world to offset their incompetence, corrupt governance, and dire incapacities by buying into the "nuclear option."

We didn't need Libya's oil and the assets of the International Banking community and Oil Cartels were not at risk. We should have left them alone. As we should have learned by our painful lessons in dealing with Hezbollah, Hamas, the Somalis, Iraqis, Afghanis, Pakistanis, and Yhemenis, these people live by the fued. We are investing our precious national resources in the growing retribution of a people would would rather kill their savior than oppose their tyrants.

I would also like to point out that we STILL have North Korea and their best buddy Iran to deal with in the coming days. We are digging a hole for ourselves. Our over-extended military will not be able to dig us out. Our so-called "allies," having continually demonstrated their timidity and lack of resolve, will be loathe to assist us should our nation's security be compromised.

Our politicians are blind at this moment in our history and incapable of right-minded thinking. They have put over 300,000,000 innocent souls at risk and we have entrusted them with our lives.

We should now take the advice of a very wise and intellectually agile philosopher who cautioned the weary that they should not follow blind men for the both shall fall into the pit and perish.

I am worried...really, really, really worried. There is entirely too much idealism going on here and not enough concern about the people who live in that shining city on a hill.

The President can use the military at reasonable discretion for thirty days, as long as the actions do not consitute a act of war against another country which means restraint but if he doesn't have some support from congress, a president would be stupid because after thirty days congress takes full control of the military up to signing a complete crease fire and full withdrawal from where ever and what ever mess the action of the president caused. The short period of use of power was given to the president as defense use of our military on our soil because when that power was written into the consitution, it would have taken that period of time if not longer to go to places we go now. That power was really meant for a attack on our own soil not some where we do not belong and with out restraint the earth could be completely destroyed in a month and can be in a lot of instances too much power for one man, but there are still some check and balances.

After the endless criticisms of "Bush's wars" I am enjoying very much watching Mr Obama show us how it's really done! (heavy sarcasm)

I am no fan of Obama's but the posts stating this is about oil are foolish, it wasn't about oil in Iraq and it's not about oil in Libya. Both are about removing or punishing a dictator for attacking his own citizens.

For all of the remarks that Obama at least waited for approval from a coalition, let me correct this for you. Bush received Congresses approval and put together a coalition of 128 countries before attacking Iraq. Obama has been absent for two weeks and because of the United States not stepping in and taking charge, we have a four country coalition that doesn't even include Germany and a bunch of panty waist Europeans fighting for control. As usual Obama is taking a routine disruption and making it worse by not taking control. He did the same thing with the economy. Obama's lack of experience is costing us dearly.

Libya only produces 2% of the World's oil. Not much.

Well put Moon,

This is all useful fiction and political positioning. Of course we are leading this action. The most ridiculous part of this is that it could have been avoided 3 1/2 weeks ago.

France and Britain were on board (France, I still cannot fathom the fact that we now live in a country with less of a spine than France), and the mere announcement of a no fly zone would have caused most of Qaddafi's air force to defect.

Now Qaddafi has brought in 1000's of mercenaries, and has an upper hand in the ground war. What have we done; dithered and double-spoke. Obama's unbelievable lack of leadership, added to his incoherent policy, will give us $6/gal gas by summer and completely confuse any hope of a democratic movement in the Middle east, thus undoing any good Bush did.

The Left is beside themselves......Curse the invasion as illegal like they did Bush after receiving UN go-ahead, and risk losing face among their peers for standing their looser ground, or support their President that has NOT pulled us out of Afganistan like he Promised however he did start a new war.

The Left, and ObamaGod, only preach whats trendy at the time and not what is good for America, waffle in a heartbeat. I can see the DNC/Democrats scratching their heads over this now: Who do we blame at election 2012? We have to re-write this history so fast, but, those pesky Conservatives have good long memory. I know, we can blame the UN, or Britan, but we all know we can't be held liable.

Obama has certainly shown the Democrat true colors this time, and no way to justify it or cover it up. I just wonder why he, as POTUS, would LEAVE the Country immediatly after sending our troops into harms way, not even 24 hours. Another "Scheduling conflict?" as is his favorite excuse for avoiding having to answer to the American public, Coward that he, and ALL leftist's are.

Thank you Dr. Moon and Tod for your intelligent rational logical comment, I am sure there are more of us out there, it is just too bad that there has to be so many unitelligent people like gimdan and derek. It is the reason our country is suffering so badly, you really can't fix stupid, I just have a hard time not trying to fix stupid, it is like perpetuate motion, it doesn't exist. Thank you Dr. Moon and Tod again, we need more of us if this country is going to get better.

China needs to shut up and be glad that the US has been dumb enough to make it a rich country ! The day they relinquish claims on Taiwan and recognize it as a free country then they can speak again ! Russia and China both have their own situations with the Chechens / Uighurs respectively. Lets see if they are able to keep a hands off policy? Putin is nothing more than a gangster and a tyrant and his lackey meyedev play a convenient bad cop good cop routine! The US should have let the Europeans handle their own back yard. We need to stop policing the world - one we cannot afford it and second we end up taking the back seat in every situation. Look at Afghanistan - our boys and girls are putting their lives on the line to bring some order and the Chinese are mining away their copper ! Where has common sense gone?

SB,

Lay off the coffee man. You won't solve all the worlds woes with one post!

Say everyone, I don't know if any of you have noticed but our "free press" has "closed" this discussion. You cannot find any equivocal articles in the news concerning the misguided "no-fly" initiative over Libya. We are now to read and discuss how Libyan rebels are gradually gaining the upper hand against their former government.

In the not-too-distant future, we will be discussing why we shouldn't send more troops to the Middle East. Those on the left who villianized President Bush for starting the Iraq war over oil will be hard-pressed to explain away the recent statements that President Obama has made encouraging Iranian youth to rebel against their country's Islamic Fundamentalist Government.

My countrymen; the Middle East is NOT America the day after the Kent State Massacre. The "Islamic Republic of Iran will not lament the massacre of thousands of Iranian students should they rebel against their "revolutionary council of holy mullahs." No, they will slaughter them by the 100's of thousands. Life is cheap in the Middle East. Stop equating those dark and desperate places of our human condition with a middle-class american township in New England. Those people are animals who hate Jews more than they love their children, fantasize about a resurgeance of Muslim domination in the world, and skin their opponents alive.

President Obama is following the wisdom of his advisors and they should have their temperatures checked. They've all got "New World Order" fever and it will be the death of them---and perhaps the rest of us as well.

This is a short note to the moderator of this site. The first comment on this issue has been collapsed by some child minded cretin, and in the process has taken out 82 viable/valid comments at the same time. If this 'vine' is to be regarded by free thinking individuals as somewhere they can express their opinions you really ought to do something about it. Please restore #1 and all subsequent posts. It might help if you also identified who did it so we can all see. Thanks for your time. Apologies for not contacting you direct but I'm new at this and really, I don't know how to do it. Also I don't know how to collapse a comment, nor do I wish to.

Grey Ghost...that irritated me as well. I've tried to inquire but there is no governing protocol. It just says that the "community" has collapsed the comment and you have to "expand" it to read it. I didn't find the comments all that offensive. They were just people trying to speak their mind.

In this era of conflict and duplicity, I want to know the other guy's opinion and it's important to understand that opinion if you are to make a balanced assessement of the issue.

Censors normally do not understand what it takes to promote survival in that moment of chaos where the actions of just one person can result in consequences that many millions may have to suffer. George Santyana was right: in his study of repetitive consequence, he quipped: "Those who cannot learn from the mistakes of the past suffer to repeat them." How true.

Obama is in Latin American busily greasing NAFTA wheels. Translation: He is smoothing the way for Petrobas to begin building their massive storage and off-loading facility and commence deep water drilling. Obama gave them 2 billion borrowed money and guess who owns massive shares in Petrobas? George Soros.

He starts yet another war and then scampers off with family in tow. This debacle in Libya will only get worse, the Arab League and Turkey are complaing that people are being killed ( massive bombardments have a way of doing that) Italy suddenly wants to be in charge and more countries are hopping on the bandwagon, wonder why? This is a clusterf*ck of the worst kind, and guess who will end up being blamed? Not Obama but America will get the bad rap and sink ever deeper into the quagmire that is the Middle East.

You go, mygirl1! Maybe someone is listening beside me and a few others.

Stunned@sunset: I've been hollering away along with many others. Obama makes his ineptitude and cupidity clearer every day but his supporters will ignore any facts and defend him to the death, blaming Bush continuously and ignoring the fact that Obama is worse than Bush. I read a post on another story, the poster stated that Obama was our king, that we should respect and honor him as such and he was deadly serious. That is frightening.

The behavior of our federal government makes it abundantly clear that they are more than willing to completely destroy our nation.

From the beyond foolishness of continued spending that defies logic and reason, to a 3rd military action in a cesspool / dictatorship while King Barry vacations in South America, I cannot help but to wonder how any of these elected idiots can sleep at night.

It is far past time to put conservative (do not read that as a party affiliation, there are plenty of conservatives in all directions) grown ups in charge of our nation, to do less is to guarantee our demise.

Put mothers in charge: wars wouds cease.

Tina, would that it were true, but it isn't. The tract record of women heads of state (and nearly all were mothers) hasn't really been better than that of men. And what about those Palestinian mothers who dance for joy when their sons blow themselves up? At the same time, I grew up in a working class neighborhood during Vietnam and I knew fathers who moved heaven and earth to get their son safely to Canada, even though they could barely pay their own rent.

Lolly1192 -

Please actually read more news articles before making the claim that we are trying to take anyone out. The US was quite specific about that NOT being the goal. Unless Gadhafi is hiding in one of the air fields he is not the target.

You should take your own advice. We bombed a presidential palace yesterday. We've picked a side. We're no longer merely enforcing a "No fly zone". We are engaged in war.

The Middle Eastern region is more fickled then some Americans. The same people we support in Liya will be the same ones running out to burn US flags and call for the destruction of the "Great Satan" the minute they feel they have been wronged somehow. If Egypt falls into the hands of the Muslim Brotherhood watch how fast that country goes from a "friendly" status towards the US to a more "angry" approach towards the U.S.

France acted because this serves in Frances's interest to get rid of Momar. The US is providing the bulk of aircraft, naval ships, and personnel for this current involvement. Our Middle Eastern allies have yet to provide anything significant towards the "international" effort. The Middle Eastern countries that sought US intervention are sitting on the sidelines waiting to see how their citizens react. If the majority of the population support such actions then they will move a little further. If the masses get mad and view the US. UK, and France merely "picking" on another Islamic country, then their "support" will slowly move away and thus we will see the open remarks like we have been about our "excessive use of force" against Libya's military.

Where was France during Iraq or Afghanistan? Oh yeah, they were making several large oil deals with Saddam for the southern oil fields in Al Basrah. Russia and China do not support this action because it goes against their current strategy to counter any U.S. international action. Libya provides oil mainly towards Europe. So the EU's most capable military besides the UK is France. So France sought to get the ball rolling.

These rebels may be indeed supported by organizations that are not friendly towards the United States. There is more to this story then just the 2 minute blur on the national news.

"Rebels, who had been driven back towards their eastern Benghazi stronghold before the air attacks halted an advance by Gadhafi's forces, have so far done little to capitalize on the campaign — raising fears the war could grind to a stalemate."

So what happens if there's a stalemate?

I thought we learned from Vietnam that we should not get involved in a war without clearly defined goals. What is our "Exit Strategy"?

One thing we have to be wary of is the tendency for using our vast Military technological advantage needlessly, because when a President sees how popular it can be, it can become 'addictive'.

Ray-1033782

The Left is beside themselves......Curse the invasion as illegal like they did Bush after receiving UN go-ahead, and risk losing face among their peers for standing their looser ground, or support their President that has NOT pulled us out of Afganistan like he Promised however he did start a new war.

Except he did get us out of Iraq - you know - the war started for no reason whatsoever. Repubs dont like to talk about Iraq for some reason.

And you are quite delusional if you think 6 years of screwing up a country can be undone in a year or 2 (i.e. Afghanistan if you couldnt make the connection). It also shows your lack of a grasp on reality. Our troops will be out of there by the end of Obamas term - you watch.

Mac-295039 - These rebels may be indeed supported by organizations that are not friendly towards the United States.

I can name two just off the top of my head (also known by the US Congressional Intelligence Committee, US Department of State, SOS Clinton):

Al Quada at Libya (AQL) and the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG).

What is NOT stated is that over 40% of the "Rebels" are Al Quada from Saudi Arabia (AQS or AQSA).

Mike-416 - Except he did get us out of Iraq - you know - the war started for no reason whatsoever.

Do you want me to laugh at you. Pulling out of US Military "Combat" Units and replacing them with "Non Combat" Units trained as Combat Units is just more Political symantecs.

The Iraq War was due to US Congressional Law, as US Congress only has the authority to Declare War due to the 1973 War Powers Resolution.

I agree fully. Seems like every time I post a well thought out post that runs contrary to the liberal party line, "the community" collapses it. I do not call names or use profanity, but simply state my positions on issues.

Seems as if we have childish liberals somewhere who just make a game out of censoring this list and seek to "win" by obliterating all opposing points of view. An individual should not have the power to collapse a post. If anything, they should be able to flag it for review where a moderator can make the call.

Is anyone listening at Newsvine? Your "system" is costing you serious credibility.

add to post #2.57.

The only thing President Obama did was:

"President Obama gave Iraq to Fundamentalist Islamic Iran on a Golden Platter" - Saudi Arabian Government.

Resulting in the current high Gas Prices. see post #3.21.

Do you know why I was laughing my arse off at my Brother In Law. My father (Vietnam Helicopter Pilot, three tours), my older Brother (US Military Officer), myself (selective service LRRP/Ranger, US Military Officer, US Military Training Teams (Iraq during the Iran Iraq Wars, Pakistan/Afghanistan USSR 40th Army Occupation), etc.) told my younger sister that if you join the US Army, USMC, we will disown you (we did not want her to end up in Combat), after becoming a USAF Officer she married a USAF Officer. Currently he was trained as a US Army Basic Infantry Officer and sent to Iraq. My being a US Military Asymmetric Warfare Officer at previously Iraq and currently Afghanistan I broke out laughing as to what President Obama did to my Brother In Law (he is really a good guy).

By President Obama stating an end to Operation Iraqis Freedom, he basically cut off funding for future US Military Combat Operations as well as ended the US Congressional Declaration of War With Iraq and 2002 Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution. So now Iraq becomes the backwater War, like Afghanistan was. If you do not know what this means, the next time you are wiping your arse, think of those in the US Military at Iraq that do not have money for toilet paper. If you think I am kidding go ask the Senate Appropriations Committee, Senator Daniel Inouye, as no Declaration of War, and no 2002 Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution equals no money. And just because the President of the US declares the start of a US Military Operation, does not mean money will be appropriated by US Congress (translation US Military Commanders must balance the books by taking money from maintenance, training, etc. to pay for the US Military Operation that the President declared, to the detriment of equipment worn out, people killed later due to lack of training, harsh living conditions, etc.). If you think toilet paper is not a necessity, think sanitation, infectious diseases, morale, etc..

Bruce-308647,

It is censorship, as to why I keep saying:

DO NOT COLLAPSE POSTS AS A FORM OF CENSORSHIP. Everyone has something valid to say.

What else do you expect as January 21. 2009 President Obama signed his Patriot Acts (plural), that legalized the things considered as Illegal under President Bush's Patriot Act (singular). The President Obama Patriot Acts made legal the Censorship and Monitoring of All US Communications.

The president has the authority to do this under the War Powers Act (look it up). Contrary to news reports, he also DID consult congress. MSNBC even posted the entire text of the resolution voted on by congress.

The issue here, quite simply, is that we SHOULDN'T do this. The lesson of history is clear: no matter how well intentioned our interference may be, it rarely turns out well. As a case in point, Reagan thought it was a great idea to support Osama bin Laden when the Russians were fighting Afghanistan. Of course, bin Laden didn't exactly end up waving the American flag in gratitude, did he?

In fact, we repeat this mistake over and over and over again -- we support, and often *PROVIDE WEAPONS TO* one side in a conflict, only to see those weapons and resources turned on us in the future.

Our founding fathers had *VERY* isolationist views about this sort of thing. They strongly believed that we should avoid sticking our noses into armed conflicts in other parts of the world. If, over the last 30 years, our country had been led by people with the kind of widsom possessed by our founding fathers, there wouldn't be so many people around the world that hate us, and we wouldn't be spending hundreds of billions of dollars dropping bombs while our own children go uneducated and our poor go hungry.

I weep for the civilians in Libya that are being killed by this manic -- but this is a Libyan problem that needs to be solved by Libyians.

Funny how people bring up the same old tired arguments of War powers, Congress and the President. When did the U.S. government start following the Constitution?

MGinRochester - The president has the authority to do this under the War Powers Act

I was subject to the 1973 War Powers Resolution, not once but more than once, I know what it entails from a Command standpoint. As to why everyone is saying that President Obama is now in violation of the 1973 War Powers Resolution.

So now that the first "Boots on the Ground" has occured as soon as the first USAF Pilots landed at Libya, as I warned all of you with previous posts. The clock starts ticking.

The Devil-1138528 - Funny how people bring up the same old tired arguments of War powers, Congress and the President. When did the U.S. government start following the Constitution?

I guess that H3LL has not frozen over yet. As you should know.

Ham said it was possible that Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi might manage to retain power.

"I don't think anyone would say that is ideal," the general said Monday, foreseeing a possible outcome that stands in contrast to President Barack Obama's declaration that Gadhafi must go.

Then what is the point of expending treasure and putting US service men in harm's way, we got lucky with the F15 drivers, if Gadhafi is going to stay in power? What we'll end up with is a huge, geographically, pissed off country that won't need much in the way of convincing to harbor and train terrorists. Imagine the size of that box. Yes President Obama this is an unprecedented coalition of the international community who's intent is laudable but the reality will be nothing but a class A cluster fvck surrounded by an "international" circle jerk with the U.S. being the pivot man. Thanks in advance you clown.

MGinRochester,

Our founding fathers had *VERY* isolationist views about this sort of thing. They strongly believed that we should avoid sticking our noses into armed conflicts in other parts of the world. If, over the last 30 years, our country had been led by people with the kind of widsom possessed by our founding fathers, there wouldn't be so many people around the world that hate us, and we wouldn't be spending hundreds of billions of dollars dropping bombs while our own children go uneducated and our poor go hungry.

Yeah, too bad they didn't have a little thing called crude oil, the internal combustion engine, and plastic back then. You might want to rethink your comment regarding the Founders after taking that little reality into consideration. This is about oil plain and simple. Too bad we pump more money per student than any country in the world to educate them with very poor results. Not sure throwing more money at the problem is going to solve it. Einstein had a really good quote that you might like to heed; "Insanity = doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." I also feel for our obese poor children. Crying cause they can't force the food into their maws faster.

If you don't need to DECLARE WAR to use MILITARY ACTION, then WHY DECLARE WAR AT ALL

The last time the US declared war was World War II.

Examples of military actions by the United States that did NOT include a declaration of war:

• Korea
• Viet Nam
• Grenada
• Panama
• Gulf War
• Bosnia
• Afghanistan
• Iraq
• Libya

Some conflicts, beginning with Korea, were entered into under UN auspices.

Gotta go with sven on this one Mcgin, the days of isolationism are over and the last thing we need to be spending more money on is education (and I am a teacher). If some one is going hungry in this country, with all our programs, I blame them.

There are two criteria for engaging in conflict; moral and strategic. If we will not supply our own energy then, unfortunately, when oil rich Middle east dictators begin killing their citizens, those criteria are met.

Start harvesting our vast natural gas reserves and for heavens sake; DRILL!! Then just maybe, 1 criteria will be gone and we can support the humanitarian crisies of peoples who wont turn around and terrorize us.

Common sense,

Congressional approval?

President Obama gave Iraq to Fundamentalist Islamic Iran on a Golden Platter

If you believe that, how do you explain the fact that the most recent elections in Iraq were universally regarded as free and fair; with secular, pan-Iraqi coalitions winning the most and second most votes; while the closest thing to a pro-Iranian coalition came in a distant third, collecting a majority of seats in only 1 of Iraq's 18 provinces, and garnering a mere 18% of the national vote in spite of very strong rank and file organization?

Not that we would expect an anonymous Saudi Arabian source to be particularly well versed in the principles of democracy.

The closest we came to handing Iraq over to Iran was when we invaded Iraq in 2003 with too few troops to ensure stability and civil order. That strengthened Iran's hand tremendously. In light of the election results cited above, we unarguably managed to avert the disaster you claim as accomplished fact.

Tod,

Yes, under the War Powers Resolution of 1973, Congress must be notified within 48 hours, and the military action must be completed within 60 days, with an additional 30 days allowed for withdrawal of forces, unless Congress authorizes the use of military force for an extended period.

Common sense,

My point is that there is an awful lot of hypocrisy on the left concerning Libya. I personally believe we should have threatened (with intent) a no fly zone 3 1/2 weeks ago. I believe many Qadafi loyalists would have fled and Qadaffi certainly would not have gained the ground he has now. Regardless, the action was taken very quickly on a regime that recently had a seat on the U.N. humanitarian panel for crimes against his own people. Acts that Saddam had been doing on his own countrymen and other country's for years before action was taken (He actually used WMD's).

I'm not outraged at Obama's actions, just at the timing and incoherent strategy. But where is the outrage now from the left? The situation is quite similar to Iraq (except that Qadaffi has been compliant for much of the past 6 years, where Saddam never was). You are the self proclaimed common sense man, where is the left's common sense (or at least consistency) on this?

And it has not yet been 60 days.

Congress is the body that can declare war. The President is Comannder-in-Chief of all armed forces. So there is a bit of leeway there.

The Libyan operation is legal, and still within the parameters where congress does not need to declare war.

My only gripe is that I want us to side with the rebels and get Gadhafi and his sons out. Just keeping Gadhfi from using all his military assets is a little weak, but it's to be expected by any UN mandate.

Except he did get us out of Iraq (said about Obama)

WRONG!

The withdrawal of troops was signed into effect before Bush left office, by Bush. He also instated a 2012 full withdrawal date, a date that has now been extended by 2 years to 2014 by Obama. He also wanted to withdraw a good deal of troops from Afghanistan, but oddly enough, as soon as Obama heard that Afghanistan was sitting on top of trillions of dollars in Alkaline reserves, we suddenly send in more troops with no clear timeline on withdrawal.

Stop revising history to make Obama sound like a peacemaker. This last week has proven that he's no better the Dubya when it comes to making peace. I wonder if Nobel can get its award back....

commonsense....,

If you bothered to do the research you would come to the same conclusion as my post# 3.21.

As far as "anonymous Saudi Arabian source", if you get off your arse and bothered to verify the quote, you would realize who said that, and if you think that source does not know you are sadly mistaken. This was a test to see if you would bother to even do any basic research before posting something uninformed uneducated non factual in my response to my researched Facts.

And well you failed the Test, Your Grade: F-.

Barry is the same as George. He's doing exactly the same thing for the same people and it's not you and me. You Republocrats need to wake up. This is not about democracy or gaining anyone's freedom.

Just a note on something Commonsense brought up. GW Bush did get a declaration of War against Iraq and Afghanistan. The Gulf War was also a declared war. There was absolutely NO reason to declare war against Granada, as it was a military rescue mission, only. The fighting that took place was only to get our students out of the country, safely. The skirmishes were also to that end, though there were some that set up a security boundary, it was still towards the end result of the rescue.

There is no reason to declare war against Libya, as we are providing military operations to enforce what the UN has declared was necessary and legal. We are not at war with Libya, nor Qaddafi, we are providing a safety net for the civilians that Qaddafi has sworn to massacre. I don't personally believe that we should be providing this operation, as it will not likely go as expected. We tend to draw more criticism from rest of the world, even though our intentions are well-meaning.

My apologies! Should have checked the resources better, as to the difference between Declared and Congress Approved, sorry Commonsense. No declaration of War, instead it was just short of that, with approval for military operations by Congress.

And, as mentioned, the Military Operations through UN Security Counsel:

Korean War
North Korea

People's Republic of China

UNSCR 84, 1950
Harry S. Truman
Armistice^[11] 1953

Multinational Force in Lebanon
Shia militia,

Druze miltia, Syria

UNSCR 425, 1978

UNSCR 426, 1978

Jimmy Carter

Ronald Reagan

US forces withdrew in 1984

Gulf War,

also known as Operation Desert Storm

Iraq
UNSCR 678, 1990
George H. W. Bush
UNSCR 689, 1991

Bosnian War

also known as UNPROFOR

Serbia
UNSCR 770, 1992

UNSCR 776, 1992 UNSCR 836, 1993

Bill Clinton
Reflagged as IFOR in 1995,

Reflagged as SFOR in 1996, Completed in 2004

2001 War in Afghanistan,

also known as Operation Enduring Freedom

Afghanistan
al-Qaeda
UNSCR 1368, 2001

UNSCR 1378, 2001

George W. Bush

Barack Obama

Ongoing

Second Liberian Civil War
Peacekeeping
UNSCR 1497, 2003
George W. Bush
US Forces withdraw in 2003 after UNMIL is established

2004 Haitian Rebellion,

also known as MINUSTAH

UNSCR 1529, 2004

UNSCR 1542, 2004

2004

2011 Military Intervention in Libya

also known as Operation Odyssey Dawn

Libya
UNSCR 1973, 2011
Barack Obama
Ongoing

"The withdrawal of troops was signed into effect before Bush left office, by Bush. He also instated a 2012 full withdrawal date, a date that has now been extended by 2 years to 2014 by Obama" that was a classic screw over by Bush... one of those let me sign something that i know will have to be overturned and then pass it on to the next guy in office to make him look bad kind of deals... lots of presidents have done this sort of like the midnight pardons and such

david, your supposed "quote" about Obama, Iran, and Saudi Arabia is bogus.

Voting, nice research posted at 2.76.

I hear KING OBIMBO , is considering ground troops ,

BUT

We have to wait for the NFL Draft ................................

David- its your responsiblity to provide the sources for your so called facts, not ours. Your teacher should have taught you that in middle school.

Your Grade: F

Tod- When we went into Iraq, were they in a civil war? Was Saddam shelling civlians without discrimination? No. On the other hand Saddam was known for attacking his own people. I agree that he was a tyrant like many others in power today. To say this is similar to iraq is partly correct, same type of players involed but its unfolding in a different manner. We are not invading, no troops on the ground. We waited and pushed for NATO to lead an international effort. You say that the left was screaming about Iraq, but after 9-11 all I remember is everyone screaming for retaliation, to take the fight to terroists. We were all together, the left started screaming when they realized what was going on with the lies about Iraq being involed. No WMD's anywhere to be found. Everyone should have been mad, not just the left, we were lied to. This on the other hand is not the same, no matter how much you say it is.

Yes SmallTown.....Libya is about the OIL only. France and Canada condemned Americas involvement in the region until they both were at risk of oil supply problems out of Libya. This has nothing to do with a "Humanitarian" effort...it is all about the OIL. We got sucked in to help because of our superior war machine...the very same war machine that France and Canada despise about us. You are right...we are being lied too by our President...again.

Shiloh!!!!

Shiloh was a civil war battleground in Tennesee.

You know, when a baseball pitcher throws it near the players ankles. The umpire yells "That one was just a shiloh".

Paul if it was only about oil, why wouldnt they let gaddhafi quell the rebelion as quickly as possible?

Lybian oil effects the entire globe John... Its not EU oil market..... -1 for you

Treaty obligations can overrule the constitution. That's why the UN is so scary and why the liberals are pushing for global govt-- they cant otherwise ignore the constitution so easily.

Gotta agree with John. Primary importers of Libyan oil are in Europe. Yes reduced Libyan oil production hurts global supply, but it sure is interesting to see France push this while Italy provides the launching pad.

I guess his masters ... insisted on it

That comment reveals a lot about your mind set.

Treaty obligations can overrule the constitution. That's why ... the liberals are pushing for global govt

And yours.

The tragic thing is that both of you probably sincerely believe what you wrote.

Are you ignorant enough to believe that our respected role among nations was used to lower gasoline prices? The United Nations is about peace, humanitarianism and international consensus. That's a "threat" we can believe in.

The tragic thing about commonsense in #3.4 is that he/she doesn't have any common sense...

Expert, I for one believe commonsense hit the nail on the head. It's political shill like you and them that's the problem in this country. You don't see the irony of "liberals pushing for global govt."?

Rusty, the reason the oil from Libya is important to eastern Europe is because it's close with low shipping. But in reality they are close to all the oil producing countries, not just Libya.

Harvest the oil we have here, bring the troops home, and let other countries fight their own battles. We can't become economically solvent by spending money we don't have.

How about if we use up the other countries oil and save ours for last. That way after all the others countries run out of oil we'll still have ours for the rich people to use because you sure won't have the money to buy it.

Impeach Obam he is willing to trade the live sof out military to save some one on a another continent.

What kind of a president will spend American lives to save a bunch of people elsewhere. Impeach him

I was wondering how long it would take for you to be here with your foolish rants.

You never disappoint.

BS Detector- Really? The "liberals are pushing for global govt"??

Hey, I'm the first to conclude that both parties suck, hence my moniker, "Indy". But really, dude, to point the finger solely at liberals?? Umm....does Daddy Bush's "New World Order" ring a bell? Or maybe the proposals at the Copenhagen Conventions and G20 meetings for "global governance" that were supported by Junior?

C'mon........you can bicker about liberals being this or that......but let's not start assuming they are to blame for pushing a global government agenda. It takes two to tango.....

Like stated elsewhere, If Europe was worried about their oil, they would let Gadhafi smash the rebelion and continue business as usual. You have to be pretty ignorant to think they want prolonged conflict in the region if they are worried about oil.

What kind of a president will spend American lives to save a bunch of people elsewhere.

Hmmm. Perhaps all of them?

I'm guessing you failed US history.

What kind of a president will spend American lives to save a bunch of people elsewhere.

Woodrow Wilson WWI

Franklin D. Roosevelt WWII

Korea War Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower

There where many more in conflicts not just wars.

JFK, LBJ and Nixon, Vietnam

Bush Sr., Desert Storm

Bush Jr., LOL?

afinity states:

"The United Nations is about peace, humanitarianism and international consensus"

You are seriously dillusional. Have you actually been following anything the U.N. has done in the past 20 years? Maybe start your research with who has recently spent time on their human rights panel.

Common sense,

Bush Jr. LOL?

So tell me captain of common sense; the current democratic (hopefully)movement sweeping across the middle east was birthed by which president? Who, by the way had the permsission and consent of our congress and multiple U.N. resolutions to back him in his enedeavors. It was not Carter, he gave us Iran remember. Iraq, Iran who looks better at present?

So do tell. What the heck is our presidents overall plan as the middle east continues to blow up (Yemen, Bahrain, Saudi etc.), cause I sure can't figure it out.

Tod: yeah, that's a very good question. I don't think the administration has a clue much less a plan. If there is a plan, I think its the 'toss something out and see what happens' plan.

The poster blathering away about the UN is apparently unaware of the masses of missing money that is supposed to be used for humaitarian aid. Seems like many hands have gotten into that one. The UN is a joke. Until a few weeks ago the country that Obama has said needs its leader gone, Libya, was on the council for Human Rights. Along with China. Great panel that, some of the worst human rights offenders are passing judgement on huma rights violations.

GimDan - Lybian oil effects the entire globe John... Its not EU oil market..... -1 for you

No, they do not. The majority of the Libyan Oil, 85% goes only to Europe (take a rough guess as to which nations use the most Libyan Oil (same ones attacking Libya)).

The Germans do not give a f**k because they can get petroleum from the Russian Federation just like the Natural Gas. Quite a lot of their electricity comes from modern Nuclear Power, Generation III with Nuclear Waste material recycling. This is why they did not support this at the UN.

WHAT IS AFFECTING THE PRICE OF OIL INTERNATIONALLY IS:

1. President Obama's Policies for Iraq. That essentially "President Obama gave Iraq to Fundamentalist Islamic Iran on a Golden Platter" - Saudi Arabian Government. The RESULT: 2011, Iraqis Oil Contracts go to Chinese and the Russian Federation.

a. Northern Iraqis Oil Fields are under the control of the Kurdistanis, the Kurdistanis have been the Armed (men, women, children) Allies of Fundamentalist Islamic Iran ever since the Iran Iraq Wars.

b. Southern Iraqis (Arabs, Sunnis, Arabic) Oil Fields are under the control of the Illegal Aliens from Fundamentalist Islamic Iran (Persians, Shiites, Farsi). The Shiites (Persians, Farsi) filled up the southern half of Iraq due to the Iraqis not enforcing their Illegal Alien Laws, just like the over 23 Million Illegal Aliens in the US. These Shiite Iranians fled to Iraq due to the massive Unemployment at Fundamentalist Islamic Iran after the Fall of the Shah of Iran.

c. Since the Iran Iraq Wars the USSR (now Russian Federation) has been the Ally of Fundamentalist Islamic Iran, arming and training Fundamentalist Islamic Iran during the Iran Iraq Wars. The US was training the US Ally Iraq (our US Mililitary Training Teams, that also went to Pakistan/Afghanistan during the USSR 40th Army Occupation) during the Iran Iraq Wars.

d. The Chinese have been supplying weapons, technology to Fundamentalist Islamic Iran, and Fundamentalist Islamic Iran provides these Chinese weapons to Al Quada, Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban, Army of Islam (Pakistan), Hamas Foreign Fighters, Chechen Foreign Fighters, Al Quada Yemen (AQY), Army of Islam (Gaza), Al Quada Libya (AQL), Muslim Brotherhood, Al Quada Saudi Arabia, Al Quada Somalia (AQS), Al Quada in Iraq (AQI), Ansar al Islam (AI), and Ansar al Sunna (AS), Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) Algeria, Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG), etc..

With Al Quada Libya, Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG), Al Quada Saudi Arabia (above 40%) being the majority of the current "Rebels" at Libya. For future reference when you start seeing people of prime combatant age fighting start digging deeper. And you CANNOT just pick up an AK-47 and start firing it, so who taught them and where (how many of you can do that NOW, without reference materials, nor training). And do not say defectors, as to there were none during the start of the Rebellion. And where did the Rebels get the intial weapons to attack the Libyan Military Bases to get weapons, weapon ownership at Libya is illegal, and do NOT say Police as Libyan Police are harsher than the Libyan Military enforcing Gaddifi's Orders.

This is why I could use the first Middle East Language that I learned, Farsi (Iranian Persian) when I became "Middle East" Qualified prior to the US Military Training Teams to Iraq during the Iran Iraq Wars, with the Kurdistanis, and the Shiites at Southern Iraq.

2. Fundamentalist Islamic Iran currently controls the Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman. Effectively stopping Saudi Arabian and Kuwaitis Oil Supertankers from reaching the US. This is why the Saudi Arabians are demanding US and Israel Military Actions against Fundamentalist Islamic Iran.

a. Fundamentalist Islamic Iran bought Chinese Supersonic Anti Ship Missiles.

b. To protect Fundamentalist Islamic Iran from Air Strikes, they bought Russian Federation, S-300s (Four per TEL). Mostly around the Chinese Supersonic Anti Ship Missile Sites, the Nuclear Sites and ICBM Sites.

c. To protect against missile attacks, Fundamentalist Islamic Iran bought Russian Federation, S-400s (Two per TEL).

d. Fundamentalist Islamic Iran bought North Korean ICBMs, and the Chinese allowed them to be shipped, 2011, thru Bejing China to Fundamentalist Islamic Iran. It is not known if they also bought the nuclear warheads. This is an orbital weapon, range becomes irrelevant.

e. 2010, Test launching their new, Three Stage Solid Fuel Missiles (ICBMs). These are almost identical to the US Pershing II, without a range limiter, and with a third stage that makes this an orbital weapon also. It is believed that a Chinese manufactured Guidance Navigation and Control (GNC), based on a US design, is used. This was known since President Bush, as to why he wanted more accurate long range land based Anti Ballistic Missiles for intercepts before they reach Europe.

I already told all of you that even before the First Gulf War, the Canadians, Mexicans, Kuwaitis, Saudi Arabians, Europeans (BP), Exxon, etc. were Oil Laundrying cheap easy to get Iraqis Oil. So with Fundamentalist Islamic Iran controlling the Persian Gulf and Gulf of Oman, the Canadians are resorting to processing tons of oil sand and oil shale to get a few barrels of Oil. The Mexicans, 2011, have authorized their own high risk deep water Oil Drilling. 2009, the Saudi Arabians start deep desert sand Oil Drilling. 1990, the Kuwaitis start diagonal Oil drilling into the Iraqis Oil Fields (An Act of War), as to why the Iraqis Invaded Kuwait as demanded by the Iraqis Parliamentary Government to stop this and the corrupt management of the Iraqis Oil for Food Program (raised the cost of the Kuwaiti transfer of Iraqis Oil to Supertankers making Iraqis Oil worthless, so no Food. Iraqis Food sold to Kuwaitis.).

ARE YOU GETTING THE WHOLE PICTURE NOW.

How about repeating the same mistakes and expecting a different result. Those same mistakes that got the US into the War with Iraq prior to the First Gulf War.

And I told all of you about the History of the Arab League of Nations, first demand sanctions against Israel, then demand Arms Embargoes against Israel (while using their Oil money to buy modern USSR Armor and Aircraft and other weapons), then Pearl Harbor Surprise Attack Israel, (20 to 1). Not just once but: 1948 to 49, 1956, 1967, 1973 to 74, and 1982. This is why Israel EARNED the Lands lost by the Arab League of Nations, Gaza, Sinai Penisula, Palestine, West Bank, etc.. And what is worse all of you and the UN continue to believe them (the same people are still members of the Arab League).

THIS WAS NEVER ABOUT "PROTECTING INNOCENT CIVILIANS".

Otherwise you would require the "Innocent Civilians" to lay down their weapons and stop attacking any cities that are not under their control. And wait until BOTH sides are willing to negotiate a peaceful solution, supposed purpose of a No Fly Zone.

And the British and French Air Craft would not be performing CAS (Close Air Support) for the "Rebels". On BBC News, Libyan Military Tanks stationary to defend a city against a Rebel attack, bombed by French Aircraft, and like I said before about Jet Fighters modified to do CAS being inaccurate, they almost took out the Rebels also (you could see them getting caught by high velocity fragmentation). From the News Footage I believe that the French dropped two 500 pounders (high velocity fragmentation 3,000 meters). The US News Media reported this as the French possibly killing four Tanks.

British attacking Command, Control, Coordination, Communications, Intelligence (C4I) Locations after the UN Resolution, this is NOT "Protecting the Innocent Civilians". As to why the Turks, Germans, Arab League, etc. are protesting by not wanting to get involved. And if the British did not purposefully target the C4I location firing a submarine launched cruise missile, I also told all of you about how inaccurate the sea launched cruise missiles are:

Still, Mr. Saleh told General Petraeus that "mistakes were made" in the killing of civilians. He agreed to the American commander's proposal that to improve accuracy, future strikes would be carried out by American aircraft rather than by cruise missiles fired from distant ships.

Prior to conducting any Military Operations, you determine your C4I and a distinct Chain of Command (Unity of Command), the Goals Strategic and Tactical, the End Game, the limitations as to what are acceptable losses, Exit Strategy, Contingency Plans, etc.. From all of the previous articles, this article, international news media, etc. none of this was done (has been done).

For all that want these actions, simple, go join the US Military Ground Combat Forces (not the USAF, nor USN, unless you join USAF SOW, or USN SEALs). So that when, not if, we (you) end up at Libya, do not recall me again to active duty, my men, women and myself will be getting drunk and laid to forget about the Middle East, Africa, South and Central Americas, etc.. It will be your turn based on your previous f**ked up ideas.

bs detector

Treaty obligations can overrule the constitution. That's why the UN is so scary and why the liberals are pushing for global govt-

Is your BS detector going off right now?

Cite a source please.

ARE YOU GETTING THE WHOLE PICTURE NOW (?) – david

Yes, and it looks rather like something painted by Salvador Dali while suffering from a bad hangover.

The price of oil has skyrocketed because Obama cut production in Iraq? Iraq was our staunch ally prior to the 2003 invasion? All of the Kurds have always been Iran's allies? The Arab Shi'ites of southern Iraq are Persians? Iran controls Iraq? Because of Obama?

You should be commended on having as much information as you do, and knowledge of various groups, places, etc. Trouble is, so much of what you 'know' is wrong. And that invariably leads to faulty analysis.

"The piano has been drinking, not me." – Tom Waits

Gotta agree with Common sense here david,

That was one long blathering diatribe without a whole lot of coherent thought or truth.

and Fundamentalist Islamic Iran provides these Chinese weapons to Al Quada,

You need to do a little more research on your bad guys. Al-Qiada is radical Sunni, and stands against Shiites. Iran is not in any way a friend to Al-Qiada. Al-Qiada in Iraq sided with the Sunnis against the Shiites.

tod

there is no proof yet that these are democratic movements in the middle east. Just look at the vote of the gaza strip a terrorist organization was elected. also they thought that the first iran movement with the iatola was a democratic movement surprise!!! (iatola is spelled wrong tough crap)

While I understand the fear, I cannot see how keeping Gadhafi in power would be better. I cannot see how any world leader that would order snipers to shoot into a crowd of protesters, or any nation that would allow violence against protesters in the 21st century should be given a free pass.

Iran was on a fair path until they started rigging elections to keep the reformers out. They have instituted a theocracy with a democratic underpinning. Much like a monarchy. While the top religios figure is the most powerful, the reformers were moving in a more democratic direction.

You never really know how these things will turn out. You sometimes just have to take a leap of faith. Sometimes we get it wrong, but sometimes we get it right.

Oh, and Hamas does have two wings. The wing that was voted for was not the military wing. It is a sad SAD fact that they are one organization with two such diverse goals.

Jr,

Notice I said hopefully, however Iraq is on its way, Afghanistan?, Egypt and Libya are maybes. Yemen, Saudi, Bahrain; I tend to agree they would probably trend toward Islamic rule. But as Dennis mentioned, you never really know.

I still believe had Obama enforced (or even declared enforcement) a no-fly zone 3 1/2 weeks ago the confusing mess we are in now could have been avoided and other middle east dictators would have taken notice. Right now all they have noticed is our wishy washy confusion, which I believe will further embolden them to murder any who take to the streets.

commonsense...., Tod-2791955,

(Unclassified) How about this go thru my post and then post your researched Facts that contradict my Facts. Because of President Obama's lack of understand of the Iraqis situation, that is what he based his Policies on. And FYI, between Iraq, Afghanistan, I have been involved in the Middle East as a US Military Officer since the 1980s, have you ever been there living with the locals (not on a FOB, COB, Green Zones, Secure Air Base). Do you speak Farsi, Arabic, Pashtu.

(Unclassified) Both of you sound worse than Clark Poundstone of the movie, Green Zone, as Mr. Martin Brown said, "you have no idea what is going on outside the Green Zone". That movie got a lot correct, except, we would not be going after our own people as most of us were Rangers before, the people that would be doing that would be the Foreign Security Contractors (hired by the Agencies, and US Department of State (Diplomatic Immunity)); the swimming pool scene was wrong, as during that time there would have been at least fifty more drunk and partying US Civilians.

Tod-2791955 when was the last time that you posted anything with any facts and not ranting uninformed opinions. You do not know anything about the Chemical Weapons, if you did you would have a What The F**k moment. Prior to my US Military Officer Career Field Change I was assigned to the Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces, with training on Nuclear Weapons, Missiles, Chemical Weapons, Biological (Epidemiology). You think it was a coincidence that I ended up at Iraq during the Iran Iraq Wars.

I give Facts without exceeding security classifications, and all you attempt to do is futile attempts at character assassinations, just because your partisan bias, does not like the Facts.

Dennis-816242,

(Unclassified) And what are your references and sources. I can tell you this, when the US Military started to see all the Chinese manufactured, AK-47, AKMs, SVDs, ammunition, RKG-3 Anti Tank Handgrenades, Mortars, Mortar Rounds, Anti Tank Rifles, Heavy Machineguns, etc. all with Chinese and not Cyrillic on them what are we supposed to think. When General McChrystal was there (Iraq), Commander of Joint Special Operations Task Force, he saw this and took the time to find out what was happening, he informed his boss, General Petraeus.

(Unclassified) Later after General McChrystal was selected by President Obama to Command Afghanistan. (We had already been here for a few years, since before the 2001 Liberation (Invasion)). After arriving, he pursued the inquiries into where all the weapons were coming from. As you cut the source of the weapons, you significantly diminish the enemy capabilities. When I first became "Middle East" Qualified my first Middle East Language was Farsi (used with the Kurdistanis, and Shiite Iranians at Iraq), then Arabic (immersion at Egypt, used at Iraq Baghdad), now Pashtu (southern Afghanistan, must still go to school to learn Dari).

(Unclassified) The investigation lead to Fundamentalist Islamic Iran and the "Old Silk Road" at northern Fundamentalist Islamic Iran being used as a route between the Autonomous Region of Kurdistan, and northwestern Afghanistan. At this time General McChrystal in a video conference informed his bosses. General McChrystal tasks the Spanish Military (NATO Force) located in the northwest to investigate, they end up with casualties. The British are tasked to investigate the southwest, and some may have actually gone into Fundamentalist Islamic Iran by accident during the firefights.

(Unclassified) The US Politicians want to tone down anything against Fundamentalist Islamic Iran and don't want to hear anything adverse. General McChrystal goes Public and states that the weapons at Iraq and Afghanistan are coming Fundamentalist Islamic Iran. During a video conference, he gets a verbal reprimand from President Obama.

(Unclassified) The US Ally, Turkey, is requested to investigate southern Turkey near the border of Iraq, Fundamentalist Islamic Iran, Syria. What they find are the Training Camps that are training, Al Quada, Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban, Hamas Foreign Fighters, Kurdistanis (PKK, HPG, KGK, that still are fighting for Northern Iraq, Syria, southern Turkey as the Nation of Kurdistan; and do not tell me that they are the minority, we lived with them prior to the 2003 US Military Liberation (Invasion)), Army of Islam (Gaza), etc.; again they were being funded, armed and trained by Fundamentalist Islamic Iran. The Israelis are informed about the Hamas Foreign Fighters and immediately start stricter Blockades especially anything coming from Turkey. The Turkish Military Forces (Special Warfare) that had been fighting the Kurdistanis plan and conduct raids to destroy the Training Camps (possible incursions into Northern Iraq, Syria, Northern Fundamentalist Islamic Iran). Due to the Turkish Military Forces raids, many flee using the Old Silk Road into northern Fundamentalist Islamic Iran and eventually make it to Afghanistan with the Spanish Military Forces getting into more firefights. Others fleeing the raids head back to Gaza and Palestine from Turkey, the Israelis Customs Agents get their arses beat (as those on the ships are prime combatant age, and just came from the Training Camps (and received hand to hand combat training)).

So, Dennis-816242, I really do not know anything from the History Books, News Media, that are written by non participants with information paid for as the more sensational the more money from those that were also non participants.

(Unclassified) Note: In preparations for Afghanistan, US Military Asymmetric Mountain Warfare, we went to Mountain Warfare School (Technical Mountain Climbing, Winter Phase and Summer Phase), and Winter (Arctic) Warfare School. We then attended the Deutsche Bundeswehr (Commando) Mountain Warfare School near the Zugspitze. For actual training Asymmetric Mountain Warfare low intensity medium risk Asymmetric Mountain Warfare we were attached to the Turkish Military Special Forces southern Turkey fighting the Kurdistanis.

commonsense...., Tod-2791955, Dennis-816242, so sure the men, women of my Command know nothing. Does that mean we can leave here (Afghanistan) after years of consecutive tours, and previously years of consecutive tours Iraq. So that we can get drunk and laid to forget all this crap and retire again (again). And then you can take our places since you are all so knowledgeable more than us, then we will never be recalled again. Keep on believing the News Media that hide in their hotel rooms so that they are not killed, captured, held hostage, etc., paying for information from the locals that did not participate in the events (second or third hand sensationalized information).

Dennis-816242,

Almost forgot. Do you even know how the Sunnis and Shiites started.

And in 2010, the Arab League of Nations invited Fundamentalist Islamic Iran to join. This puts aside the hatred between Arabs and Persians, Sunnis versus Shiites.

And I do know the why (Motives), do you? Post your answer below you have one hour.

commonsense....Iraq was our staunch ally prior to the 2003 invasion?

Proof once again that you only read that what you want to read and not what was written. During the Iran Iraq Wars, the Iranians were the allies of the USSR. The Iraqis were the allies of the US.

commonsense.... All of the Kurds have always been Iran's allies?

Yes, because ALL the Kurdistanis want the formation of Kurdistan; and Turkey oppresses all of them. So the Kurdistanis turn to those that are sympathetic to their cause and that happens to be Fundamentalist Islamic Iran. The only people they hate worse than the Turks, are the Iraqis that have also been oppressing and fighting them for the longest time. Like I said before you go live with the Kurdistanis for a few years, we (US Military Teams from Germany) did prior to the 2003 Liberation (Invasion).

Keep embarrassing yourself.

David,

Got an idea for you that might help. How about if you post (short please) on what you feel the U.S. should do, or should have done, in Libya, and what should we do (if anything) as the domino's begin to fall in the middle east.

My comment on your post was driven by the fact that it was disjointed, all over the map, and blathery. If you had written something coherent in the first paragraph I might have taken the time to thoroughly read all 20 paragraphs. Just sayin. Give it a try, it might make some sense and I might find myself agreeing with parts.

David, I am concerned about a couple of items with your posts. First, you claim to be a military officer with a background in special forces, yet you "run your suck" an awful lot. I have some experience with the Marines in special operations and would not and have not 'yakked' about as much as you do. Second, if you know half of what you claim to know, you must also realize that these postings are in a publicly viewable area that is not restricted to one Country nor one belief system. Though I find the majority of your statements to be of an unclassified nature, there have been some items that are not 'publicly known' nor should they be shared with the general public.

Be an Officer that has some constraint on sharing information and please quit with the old, worn out nonsense of "my men and I are getting drunk and laid." You do nothing for the image of the military nor the stature of being a Commissioned Officer in the World's most powerful military.

Thank you!

Well put voting

David, just a few quick comments:

sure the men, women of my Command know nothing ...

Nobody said that.

During the Iran Iraq Wars, the Iranians were the allies of the USSR. The Iraqis were the allies of the US.

Not exactly. We provided certain tactical information to Iraq so that they wouldn't get creamed by Iran. We certainly didn't mind watching them bloody each other's noses.

ALL the Kurdistanis want the formation of Kurdistan.... So the Kurdistanis turn to those that are sympathetic to their cause

Part of greater Kurdistan is in Iran. The Iranians have no intentions of giving that part up.

More importantly, please re-read posts 3.32 and 3.33, above, both of which are well intentioned and have your best interests at heart.

thats because we keep voting in the cfr members.just like the news keeps brain washing us to do.turn off the tv and do real research like ron paul.but last time we had a real patriot in the white house was jfk we we all know how that ended

And everyone just thought the Who were just a rock musical group...

It's ALWAYS the same old boss. If you're still in college, you can be forgiven for not realizing this but us older folks have no such excuse. That said, just what do you expect the president to do? If you do nothing, you have still made a choice for which you can be criticized, in some cases deservedly. I just don't want us bearing the brunt of it--a little help is a different matter.

If you're talking about Libya, we haven't met the new boss yet. Maybe he will be the same as the old boss, but there's at least a chance he'll be better.

If you're talking abut the United States, perhaps you need to work on your analytical skills. There are similarities and differences.

What's great is not a week ago Republicans were chastising Obama for not taking action against Ghadaffi for killing his own people...

Clinton-3204108

I understand your point, but the US helping the Libyan rebels is completely ridiculous. I am going to pose a few questions to you. Libya right now is going through what the United states went through during the 1860s.

There is one minor difference: The Libyan rebels are fighting to end their bondage to a dictator. The Confederacy was fightng for the "right" to keep black people IN bondage.

The religous factions were held in check from brutally murdering each other by Tito, but when NATO took him out, it divided Yugoslavia into several new ethnically and nationally motivated countries.

NATO did not "take out" Tito. He died in office of natural causes. Yugoslavia did disintegrate because of Tito wasn't around, but NATO had nothing to do with it.

Commonsense- there are no similarities and plenty of differences.

Commonsense- there are no similarities and plenty of differences. Obama is trying to close out the mess that Bush-Chaney started, and he has authorized limited action costing in total a half month's cost of Iraq/Afghanistan. Our aid to Libya comes as a popular uprising against a dictator is taking place, our involvement is to level the playing field. In Iraq there was not a popular uprising taking place, we did not engage on a limited basis, we were lied to about the reasons to go. Obviously this is a completely different military action. One other thing, there was no proof of terrorist involvement by Iraq against us, Ghadfi planned Lockerbie and other terrorist attacks, he is a known rogue leader and terrorist completely comfortable killing anyone in his pursuit of power.

sorry about the triple posting, my browser has javascript problems

That's okay Steve, three postings but the same old lies. Bush was exonerated, they did in fact find canisters of nerve gas stored in Iraq. It was common knowledge that Saddam had chemical weapons, Clinton, Kerry, UN etc.. stated this before Bush was ever in office. Bush wasn't lying, chemical weapons were used against Sunni Muslims, Kurds and Iranians. Bush was doing the same thing as Obama, trying to save people from a ruthless dictator. Obama isn't trying to close out anything. He had complete control of Congress and could have done anything he wanted but he didn't even close Guantanamo. Now instead of taking control like America is supposed to do, weak Obama is allowing the French and Italians to bicker over control. Neither country has the experience to control a circus. It amazes me it's so obvious just how inexperienced and foolish Obama is. He's made a disaster of everything he's touched. Nothing he's done has turned out right and all he can do is blame someone else. Democrats need to look in the mirror and see how totally inept they are at virtually every area of government. Stop blaming Bush, he's long gone, it's all Obama's game, he's not up to the task.

Absolute Liberal two-faced "leadership", I promise, if elected, to have all our troops home by the end of July 2010!!!! Oh, well, schedule conflict kept me from doing it, so, I'll just go and start another "Illegal" war, but, we gotta find a way to blame Bush, but how?

Clinton-3204108- I’m with you Clinton, though you’re a little off on some facts.

Houston!- I think your missing Clinton’s main point, that dictatorship may be necessary sometimes.

I’ve been reading several posts of how Gaddafi is a horrible dictator comparable to Saddam and Josip Broz Tito but looking at history one could make the argument that some of these dictators are a necessity in some parts of the world. We Americans live lives full of freedom, prosperity, and life without risk of oppression and think that if we can do it so can every other country in the world, but unfortunately that’s not the case. Take Iraq for example. In the Middle East the Sunni and Shia Islamic groups have been fighting with each other for hundreds of years and in Iraq it was no different before Saddam came in to power. Not to mention issues involving the Kurds and the 150 or so other tribes in Iraq. What did Lincoln say during the Civil War ‘a house divided among itself cannot stand’. So Saddam comes into power and what does he do? In 1968 his party announced its opposition to tribalism and unifies the country under one flag; an act that has occurred countless times over human history. Yes Saddam was brutal, horrible, and at times insane even. But he did help to modernize a country and provide a sort of peace between the many different groups, not to mention the civil rights he brought to the country. In the Iraqi Provisional Constitution drafted by his Ba’ath party in 1970, Article 19 states, ‘all citizens equal before the law regardless of sex, blood, language, social origin, or religion’. Women and different religious groups had far more rights under Saddam than they did before he came to power. Today the situation is quite different. While the fall of Saddam Hussein has led to many overall improvements in personal freedoms and civil rights, the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq and subsequent courtship of socially conservative Islamic political groups has created quite a different picture for women. Women no longer have many of the civil rights they were afforded under Saddam Hussein's regime as Sharia law becomes more and more in place. I am not defending Saddam he was a horrible, horrible person but for all his faults he kept the country with centuries of tribal hatred united and somewhat at peace even if it was through force, contradictory as it sounds. Something American influence has yet to accomplish in the country.

Tito was not all that different in Yugoslavia, a country composed of 6 states/groups Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, and Slovenia all of which with long histories of tension and ethnic violence toward each other and all of which wanting power in some fashion. Tito comes to power bans nationalism from being promoted and an overall relative peace occurred. When protests occurred they were repressed, often brutally and over his rule hundreds of thousands of people die. Opposition leaders were arrested and some even executed so Tito gets the ‘Evil Dictator’ stamp. But let’s just forget about the Croatian Ustaše genocide of the Serbs before Tito showed up right, as if mass murders weren’t already occurring in Yugoslavia at the time. However, for over 40 years he held a divided country together, at relative peace, and made it prosperous even. The disappearance of Tito’s tight control then created an opportunity for Croats to declare independence, while the Serbian nationalists wanted to preserve a claim over Yugoslav territories, including Croatia. The war eventually spilled into the republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which to this day remains divided. Today the Yugoslavia he held together through Dictatorship is now in pieces with political unrest and high poverty, but Tito was evil so it’s a good thing he died right?

Look I’m not defending Saddam, Tito, or Gaddafi as all of them have done many evil things, to me this becomes a “lesser of two evils” predicament. Killing your own people sounds horrible when said but when one is ruling a nation of people who want to kill each other then what would you use to keep the peace? When America goes to war in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Vietnam are we not also using violence with the goal of creating eventual peace? Dictatorship is not a good form of government but maybe just maybe, sometimes it is necessary to bring about stability. The Libya situation and the cause for violence by the Libyan citizens is very different than Iraq and Yugoslavia so it’s easy to say, ‘bring down Gaddafi’, ‘we don’t want your oppression anymore’. But be careful what you wish for because, as crazy as it sounds, it may be better than the power vacuum it creates and the power grab that ensues between the 140 tribes in Libya that Gaddafi has kept in check these 40 years, I’d hate to see even more civil war occur when he is out. That and he may just be better than the next guy who comes to power.

Dictators often keep the populace from tearing one another's throats out. The Soviet Union dissolves and voila, Bosnia, Chechnya. Saddam goes and the Baaths, 'Sunnis and Shias commence to bombing one another into Muslim heaven. There are ancient enmities and they don't rest until one side has eradicated the other.

I wonder what will happen in Libya which is loaded with tribal warlords once Ghaddafi goes? Then the question arises, who exactly are the rebels? I have heard a few reports stating that many are from Al Quaeda and other radical groups. So, if this is the case then who controls Libya? Islamic fundamentalists?

As I understand it, Gaddhafi himself has been labeling the rebels as Al-Queda minions, mind-controlled with hallucinogens. It's true that the rebels have no "face" and that we can't be 100% sure what ideal drives them, but even I know better than to accept Libyan state propaganda at face value.

OomYaaqub - That said, just what do you expect the president to do?

Enjoy his vacation at Brazil and Chile, and then do a President FDR: Lie thru his teeth to US Congress about the US remaining Isolationist and not getting into the War At Europe while selling and shipping the British War Materials (an Act of War).

Steve C-526943 - Commonsense- there are no similarities and plenty of differences. Obama is trying to close out the mess that Bush-Chaney started

As soon as you posted that you lost all crediability and embarassed yourself.

1. You do not know who started what, why, how, when, where. How much do you want to bet that you do not even know that Iraq was a Declared War with the passage of a US Law by US Congress (authority to Declare War) that conformed to the 1973 War Powers Resolution prior to Bush becoming President (43). You can say that the Declaration of War With Iraq was not Titled, "Declaration of War", as an excuse, Internationally, that Law was recognized by International Law, UN, etc. as a Declaration of War, based on those actions required by the Law passed by Congress as demanded by the President of the US, State of the Union Address. Now that I have spoon feed you hints, give your answers below, who, what, how, when, why (motives),etc. You have four hours.

2. Do you even know how many time the label "Dictator", "his own people" was conviently used to get the US Military stuck into unwinable situations. And why did we label certain Presidents (White House News Media Spin) "Dictators", I can name at least two that were so labelled, due to their Resource Nationalization that would effectively take control away from US and Foreign Corporations.

So ask yourself honestly, did Gaddifi do the same mistake of Resource Nationalization that forced the US and US Allies to Overthrow the other "Dictators". (I already know the answer, do you). You think the British (BP) and French (Total) would be happy if Libya's Resources were controlled by Libyans thru Nationalization, that would mean no more British, French, etc. hiring cheap Libyan Labor and then keeping all the Profits. Resource Nationalization would mean no more Foreign (British, French, etc.) Corporations in Libya controlling Libyan Resources, and Libya keeping all the Profits.

you're an idiot, the reasons for going to war was false and cherry picked intelligence, add in the "fear factor" and he got congress to go along with it, as far as losing credibility with you and your ilk, i don't care, your brainless following of the latest heap of poop from your corporate master says all I need to know about your position. As far as Gaddafi is concerned, Lockerbie is all I need to know to want to eliminate the rat, his people have revolted, they deserve support, because in the end, we won't have to be there for 10 years throwing a trillion down the toilet.

Steve C-526943,

Come on Steve C-526943 the Clown. I asked you to use your cognative research skills and you failed.

F- for you Steve C-526943.

Again, what Law is the Declaration of War With Iraq as passed by US Congress. Give me the number, name both Long title and Short Title, who signed it, who demanded US Congress pass the Law, what date was the State of the Union Address, which President's State of the Union Address was it. Who persuded US Congress and the US President to Declare the War (Lobbyists names). Who used false intelligence during his State of the Union Address including the first time use of the term "Weapons of Mass Destruction" as justification to Declare War.

Last chance Steve C-526943 to get a D-. You have two hours to post your answers below or the Grade of F- remains, as lack of basic cognative skills.

How old are you Steve C-526943, name calling just embarrasses you even more. Since you cannot research the facts to dispute my researched Facts and my firsthand experience.

Two hours post your researched answers below.

Steve C-526943 - your brainless following of the latest heap of poop from your corporate master says all I need to know about your position.

Extra credit (raise your grade from D-, if you answer the questions of test at post # 4.17 to Grade of C-.).

Who is "Mr. Corporate America". What is his name and how did he become "Mr. Corporate America". What US Laws did he violate. Who are his major Campaign Contributors and Constituents.

I refuse to spoon feed you any hints and contribute to the broken US Education System. This is another test of your cognative skills.

You have one hour to post your answers below.

Dr_Moon

That's okay Steve, three postings but the same old lies. Bush was exonerated, they did in fact find canisters of nerve gas stored in Iraq. It was common knowledge that Saddam had chemical weapons, Clinton, Kerry, UN etc.. stated this before Bush was ever in office. Bush wasn't lying, chemical weapons were used against Sunni Muslims, Kurds and Iranians.

LOL! You people are still trying to defend Bushs invasion of Iraq? LOL!

UN Weapons inspectors say "No WMD's"
USA Weapons inspectors say "No WMD's"
Bush says "They have WMD's - lets get 'em"

Next question...

Mike-416, - LOL! You people are still trying to defend Bushs invasion of Iraq? LOL!

If you read my previous Newsvine posts (Topic Iraq) pertaing to my firsthand experiences with the Middle East as a US Military Officer since the 1980s, you will have a What the F**k moment.

If you research the pre 9/11 2001 US Situation, you would know what happened (Congressional Records). And what happened with Iraq.

Example, who said this, and what was the result:

Together we must also confront the new hazards of chemical and biological weapons, and the outlaw states, terrorists and organized criminals seeking to acquire them. Saddam Hussein has spent the better part of this decade, and much of his nation's wealth, not on providing for the Iraqi people, but on developing nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. The United Nations weapons inspectors have done a truly remarkable job, finding and destroying more of Iraq's arsenal than was destroyed during the entire gulf war. Now, Saddam Hussein wants to stop them from completing their mission. I know I speak for everyone in this chamber, Republicans and Democrats, when I say to Saddam Hussein, "You cannot defy the will of the world", and when I say to him, "You have used weapons of mass destruction before; we are determined to deny you the capacity to use them again.

If you do not want to believe it, then take the tests at posts # 4.15, 4.17, 4.18. Steve C-526943, already gets a grade of F-. Even the Afghan children here know, and they only have internet access once a week, when we are at their village.

LOL! So your mega-mind like intellect allows you to have some in depth knowledge of Saddam Hussien and what he was up to?

The UN (hanz blix comes to mind) said there were not WMD's - in contrast to what Bush said. Our own inspectors said there werent any (we blew them up in the 90's remember?).

Your partisan hackery significantly reduces your credibility. And that quote was probably from Clinton - who bombed Iraq as punishment for not adhereing to the UN disarmament resolution.

And all your quote does is say they might get them in future - so we're gonna bomb the hell out of you and throw your country into chaos and create a breeding ground for terrorists.

Still dont see how this creates the argument that Iraq was justified. You're probably one of 5,000 or so tea baggers who still believe it.

If you're talking abut the United States, perhaps you need to work on your analytical skills. There are similarities and differences.

Yes, there have been HUGE differences between recent presidents. For example, Obama is married to a woman who looks especially good in yellow, whereas Reagan's wife preferred red. Obama has a Portaguese Water Spaniel, Bush had a Scottie and a Springer Spaniel, and Clinton had a Labrador. Also a cat. Obama has two little girls, but Bush's daughters were in college and then young adults during his administration. Yep, nobody is in danger of not being able to tell these people apart....

Mike-416,

The facts from my being there as well as being Historically Documented (not the revised History), proves what happened.

As far as your answers nope. At best you get a D-.

A hint to you and future US Military Officers NEVER EVER become partisan to any Political Party as if there is a Regime Change your US Military Officer Career is over. And for your own information, I am creating a list of all the mistakes that President Bush (41) and President Bush (43) made also. So much for your claims of Partisanship. Hint: Absentee Ballots include your name, address, etc. that are accessable as to US Congress.

(Unclassified) We know what President Saddam Hussein was up to because he was previously an Ally of the US, and stated his Objectives, Goals, Motives, etc. when we were there. examples: Modernization (Westernization) of the Arab World including Women's Rights, Nationalization of Iraqis Resources.

I asked you what the result of the quote was.

(Unclassified) I will not go to the nearest Federal Penitentiary as a result of telling you where the Chemical Weapons came from. As the Iraqis did not have the capability to make them, as used during the Iran Iraq Wars. Do you even think it was a coincidence that I was trained in Chemical Weapons and deployed as a US Military Training Team Commander to Iraq during the Iran Iraq Wars.

(Unclassified) And yes, at the end of the First Gulf War the Chemical Weapons stored northwest of Basra, at an Iraqis Ammunition Storage Facility were destroyed after the First Gulf War. Resulting in the 1st and 2nd US Cavalry getting hit by nerve, blood, and blister agents. (Veterans Affairs Internet site, Claims).

Like I said the State of the Union Address used misinformation (made everyone think that Iraq still had the previous capabilites) to Declare War on Iraq.

Answer the questions I asked. If you create a basic timeline then you will figure it out.

add to post #4.23.

Mike-416,

Like I asked before what Law resulted from that quote. And what were the actions taken. Historically Documented Dates.

You can keep declaring Partisanship (NOT), Tea bagger (NOT), etc., I want the Historically Documented Facts, not something from the Repugnants, Demoncraps, nor In Depends (Adult Diapers).

Mike states:

LOL! You people are still trying to defend Bushs invasion of Iraq? LOL!

UN Weapons inspectors say "No WMD's"
USA Weapons inspectors say "No WMD's"
Bush says "They have WMD's - lets get 'em"

OMG LOL Mike, Are you in middle school?

It fascinates me how Bush haters condense the entire Iraq conflict into 4 back to back soundbites, as if it all happened in a month. Iraq's (Sadam's) offences went back years and years inspiring multiple U.N. resolutions, and past president's calls for his removal. His offences against his countrymen and other countries make Qadafi look like mother Theresa. Libya, on the other hand, recently had a seat on the U.N.'s human rights panel, and today Obama bombs him.

I personally feel he should have threatened it 3 1/2 weeks ago (Qadafi probably would have fled), but here we are. No congressional approval (Bush had that, by the way), so where is your outrage hypocrite.

Steve C, you did a good job pointing out a few of the differences between W. and O., but I still maintain there are plenty of similarities. Both are patriotic Americans who would sincerely like to see democracy flourish in the Middle East, for example. No need for a list.

If I were to pick the two with the most similarities from a group that included Ali Khamenei of Iran, Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, Hu Jin Tao of communist China, Saddam Hussein of Iraq, George W. Bush, and Barack Obama, I would pick the two Americans as being the most alike, and there would be no hesitation whatsoever.

I would say Steve C (like many on the left) has an amazing ability to rewrite history. How in the world can you pat Obama on the back for his current actions (months after Libya was on the U.N.'s humanitarian panel) and ridicule Bush for his actions on a much more severe and dangerous dictator?

Saddam having multiple U.N. resolutions against him, past (democrat even) presidents and world leaders calling for his removal, a clear record of using WMD's on his own people and attacking other countries was much more clearly in need of removal than Qadafi. There is no logic to many on the left's Bush hating rants.

Tod, I am glad that Iv'e stirred the pot and received so many responses, many of them infantile like Mike and David (they pass out F's like its the Glenn Beck chalk board show). My background was with LRRP's and Special Forces Groups during the Vietnam and post -Vietnam Years, I've kept up with legitimate jounalism from the whole of the political spectrum, and my degrees are for engineering and physical anthropology. I know the chronological details of our involvements (entanglements) overseas and I know BS when I hear it. George W, for what ever reason, was committed to invading Iraq well before 9/11 this is well documented. He was/is a recovering substance abuser who should never have gained the presidency of the U.S. I am not a liberal, I tend more toward Ron Paul politically, I don't see a need for a huge miltary budget and no bid contracts to political cronies. My perspective is from a position of what have been the practical outcomes of the previous administration and the present. The previous administration left the country in shambles with two wars well out of control and an economy on the verge of total meltdown. No matter what anyone says, the facts are the economy is coming back, un-employment is dropping, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are coming to a close and our relationships with traditional allies are mending. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Put a logical answer to my question in the pipe and I may consider it. All I read is more irrelevant (to the middle east story) blathering about someone you illogically and hypocritically hate and blame for anything and everything.

We are in the here and now.Today's polls clearly show Americans don't agree with your rosey reports about the future of our country (direction) and would say the shambles are currently being created.

Answer the question; why the hypocrisy (Libya, Iraq)?

Iraq and Afghanistan are two closely related wars, based on scope, cause and breadth of resolution. Libya would be like Somalia, based on scope and involvement and we are not willing to get that involved in Libya, as we did learn a lesson in Somalia. There are many significant differences between Iraq and Libya, based on scope and involvement. For example, we did not build-up forces in ally soil on the boarder of Libya and continue to pressure Gadhafi with an invasion, as we did with Saddam. Saddam "laughed at the very idea, as his soldiers will kill and bury every foreign soldier that steps into Iraq!" Saddam then declared Jihad against the Americans and her allies that would invade his country. We have assisted the U.N. with establishing a no-fly zone in Libya and destroyed military objectives to enable that zone. There were warnings from the U.N. to Libya and sanctions applied, prior to the first TomaHawk being released. Gadhafi, like Saddam, chose to be defiant and put his army and country at needless risk of destruction, rather than choose a peaceful alternative.

Hypocrisy is the state of pretending to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually have, or applying a criticism to others that one does not apply to oneself. Hypocrisy involves the deception of others and is thus a kind of lie.

There is no hypocrisy with the events of GW Bush lying to the World and getting a blank check to invade Iraq and Afghanistan and B. Obama aiding the U.N. with the situation (humanitarian at its base) in Libya.

we elect politican representatives not political leaders. Politicans call THEMSELVES leaders-- but if people dont follow you, you're not the leader.

thats because he dont want to be poisioned by the japan crap this week.vacation my a.ss

Try to discover how we can work on job creation, international diplomacy, and humanitarian efforts at the same time. Then go back to your dark fantasies and slurs in the shallow end of the gene pool where the attire is diapers and tantrums break out.

The world is seemingly on fire and he's winging it in Rio

Unlike you, the President is capable of handling more than one issue at a time, and – like all recent Presidents – is perfectly capable of carrying out his duties from Air Force One.

Duh.

Exactly! How many "VACATIONS" has President Osama Obama, and his family, taken at Taxpayer expense since he was inaugurated in January of 2009?

And the dinosaur media is more concerned about his NCAA Bracket picks than his actions (very few) and inactions (many) concerning the real problems of the US and the World.

We are not going to get things done unless the President is a leader. The country looks toward its President for leadership especially during a crisis. His job is not to delegate. Hilliary Clinton should not be the voice of the United States when we are sending our troops somewhere. The President should not let the leader of France to explain why we are there. I understand why he is South America but he should not making case for war during a joint press conference with the leader of Brazil.

To use the United Nations as an excuse for our entry is a joke. Why should we go to war simply because the United Nations says we can.

Umm...Hillary's job is to be our voice on foreign affairs.

We follow UN protocol because we feel its better if the world agrees when actiions are needed rather than dictating to the world what we feel is right. If you don't know why the UN is used you need to look no further than Iraq when half the UN was against us going in, and they ended up being the correct half...

commonsense-

Unlike you, the President is capable of handling more than one issue at a time, and – like all recent Presidents – is perfectly capable of carrying out his duties from Air Force One.

What you really meant to say is the President is just as capable of carrying out his duties from Air Force One right?. He is totally not capable of carrying out his duties of the Presedency in the Oval Office and equally capable of not being able to carry them out aboard Air Force One.

He must have taken the wife and kids along for a family running of the country.

Osama Obama??? Congratulations ArchieK, you've just proven yourself a racist pig. Go back under the rock from which you crawled out and please, do us a favor, and stay there.

Osama Obama??? Congratulations ArchieK, you've just proven yourself a racist pig. Go back under the rock from which you crawled out and please, do us a favor, and stay there with the rest of your white-hooded buddies.

Yes Obama can handle more than one thing at a time. He can play tennis and watch the NCAA playoffs in the same day. He can swim and look at the babes on the beach. He can go golfing and hit two balls one for score and the other one for score. He can cheat and play golf at the same time.

It is been said that people deserve the leaders they elect, so I guess we have ourselves to blame for our country's corrupt and morally bankrupt leaders don't we?

commonsense.... like all recent Presidents – is perfectly capable of carrying out his duties from Air Force One.

Correct. Regardless of disagreements before, credit where credit is due.

commonsense.... - Unlike you, the President is capable of handling more than one issue at a time

This is where I must disagree with you (based on President Obama's actions, not words). If you have ever been to South America, you would realize how distracting everything is.

bs detector - Politicans call THEMSELVES leaders-- but if people dont follow you, you're not the leader.

Since when are Lawyers (majority of US Politicians) trained as Real Leaders, Lawyers are trained to use any means to win their arguements (Errors of Ommission (lies), Facts becoming Irrelevant, etc.).

Only the US Military requires training as Real Leaders (convince people to follow you into Combat, and I am not talking about the USAF, nor USN (Authoritarian Theory, not actual practiced Leadership, as stated, "because I ordered you to")). Unless you are talking about USAF SOWs, USN SEALs.).

Unlike learning to ride a bicycle or driving a car and other things that become learned for life, Real Leadership skills if not used degredate.

Some of the basic Real Leaders skills are:

Share the Hardships, that means if those you Lead are freezing their arses off, you are freezing your arse off. If those you Lead are living under harsh conditions so are you (visible and known to those you Lead).

Lead from the Front. That means you are at the very Front of those you Lead. This contributes to the Morale Factor as a Force Multiplier, even if you get killed.

Leadership by Example. This includes those things mentioned above as well as adhering to all Laws (knowledge of the Laws, more than those that will haul you or those you Lead into Court).

Leadership Decisions. No Hesitations in making Decisions right or wrong. Hesitations show that your decisions may not be sound or well thought out. A verbal sign of hestitation and a lack of Leadership skill or training, is the use of the words, ahh, or almm. Leadership Decisions must include all factors (think on your feet), ingrained by the Five Part US Military Operations Order that includes all details of History (Background), who, what, where, when, how, how many, why (motives and goals), and in some cases (War Plans, the Psychology of the "Commander's Intent" (internal thoughts and though process)), etc..

Clearly this was not even considered prior to the start of Military Actions at Libya. And pulling out the name Operation Odyssey Dawn from a list of available Operation names, does not mean that an Operation Order was even written.

Those are the most important Leadership Skills.

A strange idea, that is actually true is that Great Leaders, were previous good Followers. I cannot explain that, just see it all the time.

There are those that are not written. Like treat those you Lead like you would want to be treated. That does include if they f**k up and take responsibility. After all who has not at one time f**ked up at one time or another and was given a "break".

Leaders are always responsible for everything done "on their watch". And it does not matter if those you Lead, are Responsible for, f**k up they are YOUR Responsibility even if you are on the other side of the Earth. This means that you did not properly train your subordinate Leaders.

Many that have never been a Leader, do not realize that Leaders must be to those being Lead, Mother (protect those being Lead as if they are your children, teach, comfort), Father (punishment, teach, comfort, protect, etc.), Sister, Brother, Lawyer, Politician, etc.. Especially, the Psychologists that have no experience as a Leader, that attempt to categorize everyone and put them into nice neat little boxes, those that they cannot figure out (especially Real Leaders) are placed into the "Mixed Personality Disorder" Category.

There's much more both US Military Theory and my firsthand experience.

So how many Civilians are taught Real Leadership as a skill that is practiced (used).

Doughnut Boy - Baruch Obama's War..."From the halls of Pennsylvania Avenue to the shores of Tripoli!"

My senior NCO (USMC) saw your post and said that he wants to give you a piece of his mind. As do not f**king insult the USMC. President Obama was NEVER in the USMC, nor the US Military. He said a bunch of things about the Pride of the Corps and some derrogatory expletives about what you said.

Stevo-839120 (The Clown).

If you knew the documented history and I am not talking about "Birthers". You would not even say that.

The reason that he was name Barrack Hussein Obama, a Arabic Omani Muslim name, is that at Kenya if you are named a Swahili name you are automatically a fourth Class Citizen as a Kaffir (the Islamic "N" Word, as dirty, uneducated, worthless, lazy, etc.). At the major coastal cities of Kenya the Arabic Omani Muslims own and control everything. The Arabic Omani Muslims were originally those Islamic Believers that captured the Slaves (Swahili) and sold them into slavery. And if you think I do not know, we went to Kenya on R&R after being at Darfur, UN and UA (African Union) Mission.

Afterwards, his mother Stanley Dunham went to Indonesia after marrying an Indonesian Citizen, Sorento. With Barrack Hussein Obama becoming Barry Sorento. His step father signed him into Indonesia as: name: Barry Sorento, Religion: Islam, Date of Birth:, Place of Birth: Honolulu, Hawaii, Citizenship: Indonesian, Purpose: Attend Christian School, etc. as notorized by Indonesian Government Official. To renounce Barry Sorento's US Citizenship, Stanley Dunham had the US Embassy remove Barry Sorento from her US Passport (triggering a formal US Investigation). As it is a distinct disadvantage at Indonesia to be a US Citizen (no rights or Indonesian Benefits), non Islam (in an Islamic Nation), etc. as Indonesia does not allow Dual Loyalties (Citizenship) to other Countries. And yes, I have been to Indonesia with a Diplomatic Passport (why is none of your business).

Just to let all of you know. If you travel to other Nations you are usually shadowed by US Embassy personnel (so that you do not create an international incident), local Law Enforcement (make sure you are not a trouble maker), US Intelligence (make sure you are not recruited by hostile intelligence) or US Special Warfare (to keep you out of trouble), their Intelligence Agencies (to recruit you as an expendable asset), etc.. So when all these people are watching you, they also know each other by first name since they have done this so many times before.

This is why it was known that, during his time at the Christian School he was bullied for knowing how to recite the Islamic Prayers without flaw. With those performing the surveillance, doing the right thing, informing the authorities, school teachers, etc. then quickly and quitely disappearing. This is why it is known that while at Indonesia he was accepted into Islam (similar ceremony to the Jews reciting the Torahs) as a Right of Islamic Manhood (Adulthood).

So by the International Reciprocal Citizenship Laws, is Barrack Obama still an Indonesian Citizen. He would be unless he has denounced in writing his Indonesian Citizenship including a copy to the Indonesian Government. This would be required to hold any US Public Office, including as a US Military Officer. The International Reciprocal Citizenship Laws even apply to John McCain, as he was born from two US Citizens at Panama, as soon as his parents registered him at the US Embassy he became a US Citizen (reverse of what Stanley Dunham did with Barry Sorento), if he was not registered with the US Embassy he would still be a Panamanian Citizen and could not run for US President by Law. This is why the over 23 Million Illegal Aliens and their "Anchor Babies" in the US are still Loyal Mexican Citizens (a Nation, not a Race).

Is all of that clear to you now, Stevo-839120.

His job is not to delegate ...

The guy who washes the windows at the White House is very glad to hear you say that.

It is been said that people deserve the leaders they elect, so I guess we have ourselves to blame for our country's corrupt and morally bankrupt leaders don't we?

True statement. No matter which 'side' you're on.

Well put. I can't disagree with a thing that you said

lol

Steve what is racist about Osama Obama? both are common Muslim names.

see post #5.16.

RN in Philly,

Ever watch the Shirley Temple movies and the "Black face" movies of that time.

What the Black Communities (Parent) need to do is stop their own beat downs, bullying, gang membership, etc. of their own that seek advancement (Education).

Wow Linda look at the Democratic hate mongering. Look at WI and Ill. I think this should tell you something. I don't see Tea Party folks tearing up government buildings, or leaving messes that cost millions to clean up. They are the party of hate and always have been. Remember Senator Byrd and his affiliation with the KKK. I am sure that isn't a hate mongering organization. Get all the facts first then report them.

How convenient to have short term memory loss there varmit. I not only saw but heard TEA Party folk tearing things up as Republican elected officials encouraged them to from balconies. They spit on people, shouted racial epithats and so much more but hey if it makes you feel better to ignore that do so, but you will be reminded trust me you will.

Do you have documented evidence Ray?

I don't see Tea Party folks tearing up government buildings

Are you trying to say that Democratic rioters have torn down government buildings in Wisconsin and Illinois? Why do you suppose the media haven't covered that? Why has no one been arrested?

Remember Senator Byrd and his affiliation with the KKK

Are you trying to say that Senator Byrd remeained a member of the KKK right up until his death? Why do you suppose everyone else believes otherwise?

During a 1993 interview on CNN, Bernard Shaw asked Byrd what the biggest mistake he ever made was. Byrd's response was "

Byrd interview with CNN’s Bernard Shaw in December 1993:

Q: What has been your biggest mistake and your biggest success?

A: Well, it’s easy to state what has been my biggest mistake. The greatest mistake I ever made was joining the Ku Klux Klan. And I’ve said that many times. But one cannot erase what he has done. He can only change his ways and his thoughts. That was an albatross around my neck that I will always wear.

You are right to condemn Byrd's involvement with the Klan, but wrong to imply that he remained dedicated to that group all his life.

Get all the facts first then report them.

Physician, heal thyself. There is a big difference between fact and distortion.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. 85,000 good Wisconsin citizens, most of them non-union, protested two weeks ago and the immature governor labels people who have the right of speech and public assembly, extremists, outsiders, and thugs in the Gadhaffi style of smearing and marginalizing people that exercise their basic rights.

People litter and leave traces at every gathering. Lumping in traffic control, police services, wear and tear on the lawn, custodial services, and goodness knows what else, is another opportunity for Republican distortion, smear, knuckle head baiting, and lies. We are neither amused or duped. We want an adult governor and civil rights. This is not Arizona, but is the site of the roll out of the union movement in America.

By the way, counter demonstrators also littered the air and the grounds and were accountable for a lot of tea pee.

99.9% of Muslims - Islamic people are good people.

Linda this may be true; however, 100% of Muslims - Islamic peoples are obligated to abide by the Quaran and its Islamic law, which is not in the least bit tolerant of non-Islamic teachings, law, or the lie of peaceful cohabitation that your professing here.

In fact, the tolerance you speak of only exists when Islamic expansionism, which is but one of Islam's written goals, isn't being hindered in some fashion. The so called radical .01% is merely the stick by which the other 99.9% are enabled, essentially armed with a faux form of plausible deniability, which allows Muslims to steadfastly infiltrate and then expand and impose the Nation of Islam upon all the nonbelievers.

This is not fear mongering, this is a real fear recognition, as a Christian, one who will not convert to Islam, the peaceful Islamic Law requires that I must be subjugated (enslaved) and/or be put to death.

You're the fear mongerer herein, your fear being that when the truth is told the Nation of Islam is being hindered and it's your duty as a good Muslim to prevent that from happening.

Do you want us to post the link to pictures of teaparty rallies with signs that contained racial slurs? Won't be hard to find if you want...

LINDA0----------Koran---2:191 Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them.

Please...find all the back up documentation you have if this is how you feel about the Tea Party. I hear negatives about them, but no one can show any proof. That goes for Ray and basedrum!

It is quite possible the very rebels we are defending are members, or include members, of Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda is suspected of being a part of many of the current protests that are ongoing in the middle east.

My concern lies in that, any new government set up in the ME region could very well reproduce the same result as Egypt. Once we actually backed the revolutionaries and assisted in the stepping down of HM, the new ruling party blames the U.S. for supporting his power initially, supplying him with the arms he used against his own people, and as a result, have a deep condemnation for the U.S.

I won't blame Obama, but I will say that from what I'm seeing, this administration is doing nothing better than the last. The American people were told that we would only "support" the battle with Britain and France taking the lead in the action. At this point, the U.S. continues to play the leading role in the invasion.

Now that China and the Arab League are condemning the action taken by the U.S., I personally fear we're going to again be associated with a "Western war on Muslim soil"...thus bringing stronger support to Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups. Frankly, I'd rather see our efforts, troops, aid, and funding going to Japan in an effort to rebuild an infrastructure that will affect the global economy rather than a civil war that affects a local region only.

Linda ...thanks for your common sense & your humanity ! I scroll through these comments hoping to find reasonable & rational assessments of Libya ,the President , Religion , whatever !!! It is very sad that these forums are used for vilifying anything that moves or thinks or has a heart and most of all a brain ...I very much doubt that Barack ever needs to worry about the people who spout their utter bull@!$%# & racist bigotry on sites such as this ...in Canada many who write such trash would be called hate-mongers & deleted before their poison is ever allowed to be put in print .

As an old fart myself I have no interest in trying to be nice to the subhumans who hate everything they don't have or don't agree with ...to you who fit this description I despise you & your ilk . You are not anyone I care to know or associate with & you do not represent any Americans I've ever met ( and I know plenty ) ; of course you are entitled to your opinion ...your constitution says so , but at what cost to the fabric of your country ? You @!$%# in & on your own backyard constantly & then wonder why others from around the world don't want to play with your kind !!! The real representatives of the U.S. , such as your current President , flawed as he may be , is much more acceptable to those who have somewhat higher standards than the louts who fear & hate all but themselves ( my background & training suggests the one's I refer to actually hate or despise themselves the most ,truth be told ) . In any event , count me as gone from this site & the perpetual daily dose of crap from you unAmerican-Americans !

Northwind, you have HIGHER standards? Why are you using pseodo cursing ?

Why are you using the same type of general condemnation of all other people.

Why are YOU expressing so much hate ?

Linda, while I agree with most of what you said, why do you suppose the peaceful leaders of Islam aren't coming out in droves to publicly condemn the violence of their Muslim brothers? I'd really like to know.

Quoted from Citizen Frank's comments above, from a different perspective:

99.9 % of Christians are good people.

This may be true; however, 100% of Christian peoples are obligated to abide by the Holy Bible and its Biblical law, which is not in the least bit tolerant of non-Christian teachings and law.

In fact, the tolerance you speak of only exists when Christian expansionism, which is but one of Christianity's written goals, isn't being hindered in some fashion. The so called radical .01% is merely the stick by which the other 99.9% are enabled, essentially armed with a faux form of plausible deniability, which allows Christians to steadfastly infiltrate and then expand and impose the Ideals Of Christianity upon all nonbelievers.

As a Wiccan, one who will not convert to Christianity, the peaceful Biblical Law requires that I must convert and/or be put to death.

It sounds different when it's coming from the other side directed at you, doesn't it? The Christians started out being the persecuted minority when Christianity was first formed. Those who tried to spread the word were tortured and killed.

Then when Christianity swept Europe, here came the Inquisition and the witch trials. Those of my people who still practiced their Craft and the ways of the Goddess were persecuted, tortured, killed or forced to convert. Where the Quran says 'Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them' doesn't your own Bible say 'Suffer ye not a witch to live?'

The really sorry thing was that the Inquisition, and the Salem Witch Hunts in early America, didn't even manage to kill many of my religion's practitioners. You got the peasant woman or man who just happened to offend the local lord or person of affluence. I see a lot of this here; while we say that we're hunting the radicals, there are a lot of innocent casualties falling unnoticed by the wayside. One notorious Muslim extremist who gets killed in Afghanistan or Iraq gets a lot more notice than the school of children who will carry emotional scars from the war that killed that extremist for rest of their lives

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around...

Amanda, I respect your opinion; however, check your history in this regard and you'll discover that it was primarily, almost exclusively, the Catholic's and their religion of man that caused the European atrocities you're referring to herein. Any true Christians wouldn't believe that any man, such as a Pope, could hold thier key to heaven; they've twisted the reason Jesus died on the cross for their own gain and have steadfastly punished anyone who opposed them since their inception under the Roman Emperor Constantine. And yes, 25 people were wrongfully tortured and killed in the Salem incident, a terrible situation, but hardly comparable to the scope of persecution or even the goal of world dominance, by force and terror, being played out today by the Muslim community. Surely, you cannot believe that because you're a pagan you'd be left alone when push comes to shove? Good luck with that!

Sorry Amanda, I'm calling BS on your statement. No where in the Bible does it or has it ever said to kill anyone who does not or will not accept Christianity or Jesus Christ as their Savior. Yes, in history there has been times where "Christians" have not acted so Christ-like, but we have apologized for those times and have tried to make amends. When, and I'm only asking for one time, has anyone from the Muslim faith every apologized or tried to make amends for their crusades? Let me know when you find one....I'll give you until eternity to find it.

My last post, I've had enough. DAMN DEMOCRATS ARE STUPID!!!

Dr. Moon: They are like children, they squabble and call names, insult people who happen to believe in God rather than Allah, embrace Islam while ignoring those pesky suras and haddiths telling the faithful to kill homosexuals, adulterers and non-muslims. They chose to ignore what is happening under their noses, reality holds no truck with them, rather than acknowledge facts they point fingers and bring up arcane and ancient history as justification for current events. They seem to think that money grows on trees and spending on credit with no accountability is dandy. They want other people to behave as they deem fit while forgoing responsibility themselves.

Linda-921700, northwind-2853705, Stevo-839120,

How about this you go read the Unabridged Arabic Holy Koran (Quran) and the current Islamic Laws (Hadith Laws, Fiqh Laws, Sharia Laws, etc.) that Call All Islamic Believers to War Against the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers (everyone else) for those Death Penalty Crimes Against Allah and His Prophet.

By current Islamic Laws it is a Death Penalty Crime for Islamic Believers not to participate, example: The Arabic Omani Muslims massacring the "Peaceful Moderate" African Islamic Believers that do not want to attack the Christian Africans at southern Sudan (Darfur). These Peaceful Moderate African Islamic Believers are being massacred by the hundreds daily, and they do not even fight back as they are being literally chopped to pieces. This sets an "example" for the rest of the Islamic World.

Linda-921700, as soon as you posted "Islamic Religion" I know that you know absolutely NOTHING.

By the way Congressionalal Representative Lynch has more information thru the Congressionalal Intelligence Committee than you will ever get. This information is gathered by on the ground assets, submitted to ODNI, the information is then independently verified, then sent to the various Agencies under ODNI for actions.

For Islamic Believers as required by the current Islamic Laws and the Holy Koran (Quran).

For Islamic Believers. Islam is ALL. All Politics, All Religion, All Laws, All Cultures, All Ways of Life, All Beliefs, etc. that supersede the laws, politics, religions, cultures, ways of life, beliefs, etc. of all nations. This is why Islam cannot by current Islamic Laws assimilate into other Cultures. The examples being Germany, England, Sweden, Denmark, US, France, etc.

'Islamization' of Paris a Warning to the West

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2010/August/Islamization-of-Paris-a-Warning-to-the-West/

And because you know nothing about Islam how about the 1.5 Billion Islamic Believers Mandatory Islamic Believers Tithes to support:

1. The Worldwide Islamic Military (aka Jihadists, Terrorists) consisting of: Army of Islam (Pakistan), Al Quada (Afghanistan), Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban, Hamas Foreign Fighters (including at South America), Chechen Foreign Fighters, Hezbollah, Army of Islam (Gaza), Kurdistanis (PKK, HPG, KGK), Jemaah Islamiya (JI), Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG), Islamic Maghreb (AQIM) Algeria, Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG), Al Quada in Libya (AQL), Al Quada in Iraq (AQI), Ansar al Islam (AI), Ansar al Sunna (AS), Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF), New People's Army, Rajah Solaiman Movement, Jaysh al Mahdi Militia, Al Quada in Yemen (AQY), Hizb e Islami Gulbuddin or Hizb e Islami Khalis, etc..

even the US Department of State, SOS Hillary Clinton knows the above. Most in the US Military Asymmetric Warfare Forces know we are outnumbered. And all of the above are also equipped with the latest weapons from Fundamentalist Islamic Iran, these weapons are provided by the Chinese and Russian Federation for Fundamentalist Islamic Iranian Oil.

2. The Worldwide Islamic Law Enforcement (aka Death Squads, Mandatory Islamic Tithe Collectors), currently going after those that committed death penalty crimes (Freedom of Speech), like the Seattle woman now in hiding, Salmon Rushdie, Pastor at Florida, Danish Cartoonists, Lawyer at Norway, etc.. As usually funded and recruited at the local Mosques, Islamic Cultural Centers, etc. so that they "blend in" to the local cultures. They are responsible also for the fortifying, arming, and harboring the Worldwide Islamic Military as required at the local Mosques, Islamic Cultural Centers, etc. for perceived persecution as "Persecution is severer than slaughter".

even the US Department of State, SOS Hillary Clinton knows the above.

Amanda-2017567, everyone can use distant past comparisons; however, we are talking about Modern Islam as practiced. Unless, everyone wants to admit that present day Islam is stuck in the Middle Ages, by actions, not words. Like the Iranian Lawyer now hiding at Norway since he said "Islamic Laws must be brought into the 21st Century".

I apologize for Linda-921700 being so uninformed, misguided and outright ******.

Linda-921700, how about this. We cut off your clitoris, labia, and stitch your vagina shut until you are married. This is required by current Islamic Law. And after you are married we rip your sutures off. My Lionesses (US Military Women) have to save these Islamic Women from botched Female Mutilations jobs, to prevent these Islamic Women (children, teenagers, women) from bleeding to death as well as life threatening infections. Eventhough, I am also trained like my Lionesses as a Physician's Assistant I cannot touch them even to save their lives under threat of having my hands cut off as per the current Islamic Laws (that supersede the laws of all other Nations).

Linda-921700, northwind-2853705, Stevo-839120,

Your idealistic concepts of Rights, Islam, Liberties, etc. only exist in the US and the airconditioned offices of the UN. And not the REAL World as practiced.

Citizen Frank

Linda this may be true; however, 100% of Muslims - Islamic peoples are obligated to abide by the Quaran and its Islamic law, which is not in the least bit tolerant of non-Islamic teachings, law, or the lie of peaceful cohabitation that your professing here.

BOLOGNA! There are muslims who take the Quaran literal just like there are christians who take the bible literal. Muslims are not "obligated" to take the quaran literal and saying that just proves you to be quite ignorant.

There are indeed liberal Muslims--I have shared my own home with some. But there is not yet a tradition of Qu'ranic interpretation as there is a tradition of Bible scholarship that does NOT come from a fundamentalist perception. In other words, you cannot simply equate the two, much as you might want to. It's just wishful thinking. The Bible was obviously written by many different people over a span of centuries, whereas the Qu'ran was supposedly dictated by the angel Gabriel to ONE man. The fact that that man was apparently illiterate and had to rely on others to write down what he said should be a red flag--but it isn't. (And yes, I know that Jesus never wrote anything down either, and we only have second hand accounts of his words and deeds. That's also a red flag.) In addition to the Qu'ran, there are the hadith, a collection of sayings usually attributed to Muhammad. The percentage of Muslims who take all this literally and uncritically would astound you, and no, I'm not getting my information from FOX news. It's Muslims who told me this, Muslims who suffered terribly in the old country because of such people. One friend of mine couldn't say the word "fundamentalist" without practically spitting, and she had good reasons for her sentiments.

Mike-416,

Christianity does not have a Worldwide Law Enforcement to enforce Christianities Laws, like Islam does have. I already gave you the near classified "Politically Sensitive" information as to who, what, why, how, where, when. etc..

If you do not believe it, go ask the FBI what they told the Seattle Woman, Pastor at Florida, etc..

I have been researching radioactive isotopes and radionuclides for two weeks. I have been missing out here! Are people fighting?

have been researching radioactive isotopes and radionuclides for two weeks. I have been missing out here! Are people fighting?

LOL. Thanks for the comedic break, it was needed :)

Correct it is an unprovoked act of war on another sovereign nation.

Impeach Obama.

Wilburn, knock it off unless you led a charge for the impeachment of Bush for invading Iraq, a sovereign nation.

Bruce -848280,

You cannot impeach a President for obeying a Declaration of War, as passed as Law by US Congress. See post # 4.15.

BLACK= dont tell me that race doesnt have anything to do with it either!

What was it 1/4 or 1/2 a million people raped & murdered under the radar...sorry, with our backs turned pretending it would just go away?

When campaigning Obama spoke as if he would make the genocide in Dar-al-Arab (formerly Dar-Fur) a priority. Once in office he we see his priority was to cozy up with the genociders.

That is BS. Do you have a link? Total lie!

Lockerbie, I believe that was gidaffy messing with our affairs.

Lockerbie is a red herring thrown out by the government to justify the military action they'd already planned.

You don't wait 22 years for justice.

Sometimes you have to wait 22 years to see someone get justice.

THe international community sees what Gaddaffi is doing. He has spoken to the world about his plans to kill all of the protesters. People who spread/repeat lies on boards like this are evil!

leanderm

Lockerbie, I believe that was gidaffy messing with our affairs.

Its that mentality that led to us invading Iraq to settle a personal score. Thanks 'W'.

They didn't use restraint. Obama was planning yet another vacation and didn't have time to do anything else. He only acted because he didn't want France and other countries to get the credit. He was slow as he has been on everything he has done. Tele prompter didn't tell him what to do. He didn't show much restraint in sending his friends to WI. Why not use restraint there? i know he wants more union money in 2012.

There are legitimate reasons to hate Obama, but you just sound like your complaining. Get off of my comment queue you douche

Clinton did the same thing to Iraq in 1998. Claiming WMD and KILLING of Iraq Citizens...

But when Clinton had the chance to KILL Osama ben Laden, the person responsible for bombing US Citizens around the World. He did NOTHING...

Obama is too busy gaining his 'Foreign Experiances' and Campaigning. To be bothered with being a LEADER...

I'm assuming you will call me a name also. Ha! Ha!

You are right. But consider this: if we did not participate in the UN action to enforce the resolution 1072 what would that mean for our interests?

What interests precisely?

AC Robertson

Clinton did the same thing to Iraq in 1998. Claiming WMD and KILLING of Iraq Citizens...

But when Clinton had the chance to KILL Osama ben Laden, the person responsible for bombing US Citizens around the World. He did NOTHING..

Operation Desert Fox occurred as punishment for Saddam not complying with UN resolutions.

Cry and moan all you want - Bush owns the Iraq war and all the soldiers blood is on his hands.

Oh I doubt if you get it. He has spent more money for nothing in 2 years than Bush did in 8. You all love him for it. You must have gotten waivers for his health care law.

How much business will they give us? He is just having a good time with his family. He didn't make a speech as the crowd didn't want him there. They were calling for Bush, not Obama.

Varmit- Wake up to the global economy!!! Brazil has a tremendous economic presence in the rest of the world and even greater potential. The US has missed out on this opportunity for to long, thank heavens Obama is exploring it.

Brazil is one of the leading importers/exporters in the world. Yes Varmit- there are other VERY LARGE economies other than the US......

calling for bush's head maybe.

GeeCee -- good comments, and very accurate.
Varmit - wake the hell up!! If Barack Obama took 6 mos of vacation every year until his term is finished, he would NEVER equal the amount of vacation time that Bush took! You seem to be unwilling to look at true facts that have been documented over and over again. It was a wise move to visit Brazil in order to solidify our business interests with their goverment. And it will ultimately lead to more jobs here. And yes, I'll gladly reiterate --- have you not heard of phones? Have you not heard of the rather well-developed telecommunications industry that now reaches globally? Do you not think that if the president decided to spend a few weeks at the South Pole he could and would still be in close touch with Washington? That's because he uses cell phones among other wireless devices.

The problem isn't in what the president does. The problem is in what the people see the president doing. While a nuclear and humanitarian disaster was brewing in Japan, Obama was making his NCAA picks on ESPN. As war breaks out in Libya, Obama is taking a trip with his family to the the Jesus statue in Rio.

I'm not saying Obama is out of touch, though I'm certainly not a fan of his, but I have a lot of foreign friends, and the impression they are getting from their native sources depict the U.S. president as flighty and unconcerned. Even an article in the BBC website spoke about how the U.S. only involves itself for it's own interest and Libya is no different.

Remember, reality is 90% perception.

justiceprincess-2671891
you might want to think about it just a tiny little bit...
Do you realize how unsecure " cell phones among other wireless devices" are? Presidential business should never be conducted on those unless he wants the world to know his every move. He is not smart if he does.
I know I've inadvertently picked up other conversations while talking to family or friends on a wireless device.

Don't you know that the NSA put a secure chip in Obama's blackberry? Do you really think any president of the US would actually be so stupid as to use an unsecure phone??? Even Bush wasn't that stupid.

You don't need congress to approve military actions. Only for decorations of war...... But shows what the average American knows about our own government system. let me guess? Democrat?

"Decorations" of war? LOL! And you accuse someone of being dumb. How about a "Declaration" of War? Or maybe you just like to decorate things?

varmit

Oh I doubt if you get it. He has spent more money for nothing in 2 years than Bush did in 8.

Please please please tell me you are talking about deficits and debt so I can expose you for the uninformed person that you are.

More reading - less Fox News.