Article Source: msnbc.com
from:msnbc.comYou're in Easy Mode. If you prefer, you can use XHTML Mode instead. |
Chicago police erase 1968 stain at last with NATO summitButtermilk fried chickenOn eve of Egypt vote, crime wave is main topicMystery pair at diner spark cascade of givingPreliminary hearing for "NATO 3" delayed until JuneCabbie strikes gold for returning lost diamondsTwo charged in killing of Chinese graduate studentsMountain lion wanders into California city center, is killedThree climbers die as Everest season winds downBlueberry crisp
Leave a Comment:
What would we do in america if rebels were flying fighter jets and taking over bases?
Press a numbered key on the microphone for the pilots language & ask what we can give him to make him stop!
Those rebals would be you, me ,and American civillians trying to bring back our liberties that our goverment keeps taking away. Ron Paul: Libya strikes unconstitutional – only Congress can declare war.
http://www.infowars.com/ron-paul-libya-airstrikes-unconstitutional-%e2%80%93-only-congress-can-declare-war/ read this and see why we need term limits on them.We need to stop there personal agendas at our expense.And take back our American freedoms!!!
OK France... OK Britain... OK United Nations... OK Obama... Tough words and, as usual, weak actions. Stop the murderer in Lybia.
Get Real, I bet you're one of those hypocrites who says we can't afford long term unemployment insurance yet, here you are advocating we spend $billions upon $billions by pushing ourselves into the middle of yet another civil war in the middle east.
Agreed.
Advocating going to war but yet don't understand why potholes takes longer to repair, bridges falling apart, budget cuts continue to layoff people, food prices keeps going up........ and everyone back here fighting over crumbs left over.
Going to war is not free. And paying everything on creditcards are even worse. Sooner or later you are going to pay the bill that is due.
The U.N. Security Council, those in the EU, the international community.... yet, the focus is on Obama, what he says will happen.
Guess where the ball falls again? Looking to America because when they say 'we', they mean you and me. Others may bring cupcakes or juice boxes to the picnic, but we'll be expected to bring the meat, the forks and knives, plates and cups, tents and barbecues, etc... as that's how it works.
If the UN has come to a decision, internationally backed, then fine... do what you've resolved to do, but let America be more on the sidelines for this one. Even the star player needs to recuope sometimes.
Our plate's more than full, has been, and now following Japan's devastation...let the UN prove they, and others for that matter, are worth something more than redsitributing wealth and saying, 'go get 'em, tiger....'
WHAT THE F....... Start BOMBING this guy NOW NOW NOW!!!!!
Don't get me wrong I do not think we need to be on the ground BUT the coalition forces collectively going in with only AIR SUPPORT does make sense for the simple reason it will change the slaughter of the civilian population.
This is one of his posts from a different article. Typical Republican. Quick to go to war with disregard of the consequences and the cost but yet whine about the deficit and want more tax cuts.
Moderation... Yes.. to all you say.
I like to keep things simple. I think we should get to the Heart of the matter. Gadhaffi is the problem. We, the international community, have the solution. If that problem is solved then it appears a war can be circumvented.
If Gadhaffi can afford to pay off the rebels to stop them then clearly the resources are there to solve problems.
not our problem, that simple..let france get off their butts for a change
Sounds to me like the American revolution, without the fighter jets. Do we stand for or against freedom and self determination?
d3173613--------Mr Obuma would give them a stern warning. Then defer their bombing US soil to the UN.
The big mistake was giving the ultimatum that Ghaddafi must go. Those are statements of war, ultimatums and place Ghaddafi in a corner. Now he doesn't really have a reason to hold back against the rebels since Obama made it clear that Qhaddafi was the target. Should have waited to make that statement, showing one's hand too early allows for countermeasures.
I hope the UN intercedes when those of us with a brain and common decency rebel to stop the rest of you selfish, stupid socialists and greedy, unscrupulous bankers and corporate raiders from raping the future of our children and grandchildren with this astronomical debt. I would like to make the government abide by the constitution without having to die. But I'm ready if need be. I spent 18 years in the army willing to die for my country. And I still will.
The money tree has all but dried up, and the tree of liberty is wilting....
Even a nation with a tiny military, (Denmark), sent 9 planes to aid. This action by the UN has more merit than any military action post WWII. For the first time since WWII we look good in the eyes of the rest of the free world. Before the rancor starts with 'who cares what the rest of the world things?"--think of this--How will we regain our financial footing? Our factory orders will skyrocket for heavy machinery, and food due to the crisis in Japan. Canada is our #1 source of oil and a truly great trading partner.
We are earning the world's trust back and will reap the positive rewards of our current policies. We destabilized an entire region with the invasion of Iraq. If we had not invaded, the Iraqis would have demanded their freedom as the rest of the Arab world is. We had a cushy "oil for food" program that was flushed down the toilet. Let's stand with the balance of the free world.
Dave iKentucky---excellent post.
If innocent people are being killed then it is our problem and the problem of every other freedom loving person whether we like it or not!
The problem is that the morons in our government always think we must take the lead in every conflict... We lose the most soldiers, money, etc, but that isn't right. We have a moral obligation to help the Libyan people achieve freedom, but the Libyan people must take the lead. The problem is that the US always tries to turn every conflict into our own, which results in us losing men and women, and millions of dollars.
We should help the Libyan people in attaining freedom, not take over Libya. We should provide aid, arms, training, and a small amount of troops, but the Libyan rebels are the ones who need to be on the front lines because it is their war. Why is it that the citizens hate the US when we try to help their people win a war? Because America always takes over and makes it her war!
We never should have started an all out war in Afghanistan and Iraq (it was not our war), we should have stuck with encouraging and aiding pro-democracy groups. I can understand our initial desire to run into Afghanistan and grab Osama, but we should have realized early on that killing Osama would have accomplished very little. Chasing various terrorist groups throughout the hills of Afghanistan is just silly when there are Radical Muslim terrorist groups around the word including our own country.
The majority of our money should have been spent on making sure the US soil is safe from another terrorist attack either internal or external. The rest of our money should be spent on aiding pro-democracy groups especially in areas such as Afghanistan, and nowadays in Libya, a small portion of money could also be used on college campuses to encourage more people to consider careers in foreign aid and nation building. I can guarantee you that we would have money left over if we focused on our own safety and on aiding democracy abroad instead of going into all out wars. We would have a lot less dead soldiers too.
Get Real:
How many more American lives are you willing to "spend" in the name of somebody else's freedom and nobody do no @!$%# about it????
Let NATO (means France, Italy (BTW 80% of the Libyan oil goes to Italy, not America) Germany, etc) take action and risks their men and equipment.
Do the opposite as we usually do, give them "medical and logistics" support but let them "lead" the actions.
STOP SENDING OUR KIDS TO BE MURDERED IN FOREIGN WARS......
The situation in Libya is another prime example of the gas bag Obama has come to be. If in fact he wants to end the strife, why did he wait so long. Gadaffi has a point, what would we do if rebels were trying to over run our cities? Why are they hesitating if your going to implement measures to stop the murder of civilians then do it. This UN resolution took to long and now is just flapping in the breeze until action is taken. In the mean time expecting the Libyan government to stop is shear stupidity. They know the clock is ticking and it would be to their advantage to break the revolt before the west can bring any power to bear.
I'm amazed at all of the people posting about "innocent" people being killed. They are always "innocent freedom fighters" when they are on your side. If they are not, they are "Terrorist brigands". Probably one out of 100,000 of us posters actually KNOW one of the people on EITHER side. How the hell do we know who's innocent?
The only time Arabs quit killing each other is when they can get together long enough to agree to go kill somebody else.
Also, re read # 1.14 above. ALL of you would call me a terrorist and want the government to shoot me down in the street if I acted on what I KNOW to be right. Don't worry. I won't. I happen to know that it's already too late. All I can do is to watch while the democrats and republicans run our economy off of the cliff into the ocean of third world countries. At least then we will no longer have the money to attack sovereign nations.....
obama, should take time from his beach vacation in Rio, call gadafhi and tell him if he does not stop, then he would be very disappointed with him; that should do it !
mygirl and others
There is a method to the process. It's may be too slow for your likes but it is deliberate. Pragmatism has its benefits. Right now it's been a game of chess. One makes a move, the other reacts, counters, etc. The Game is not over yet.
Its good to see the U.K. and France taking the lead, but when all is said and done, I am sure the U.S. will probably do most of the heavy lifting.
Problem is, the U.N. is way too late. The U.N. is an inept organization. Its kind of like showing up to a party when everyone else is leaving. It is all but over. I give the rebels a slim chance in toppling Gadaffi, Gaddafi, Quaddafi, Gadduffy, or however the hell he spells his name. Most of the rebels have been butchered by Gaddafi's forces. Hopefully, one of the U.K. or French fighter jets will have Gaddafi's house as a target and succeed in getting him and his son. His son probably lives at home with is daddy.
In regards to the relationship of the U.S. to war, that old Dolly Parton song comes to mind.
"here you come again,
just when i'm about to make it work without you."
Its like good grief, can we at least wrap one war up before we jump feet first into another one.
French jets entered Libyan airspace; it's 10:42 where I'm at now.
Chances of something having happened by the time I get back from the stores in a few hours?
We'll see, as it appears decisions have been made.....
I'm sure our Secretary of State is doing well in this. Not even mentioned in the news.
I can see Hillary now... like a little old lady going up to the Muslim leader, "Now Gadhafi... be sure to let those armed rebels flow through your city and uproot you from power like a good boy now!"
I assure you, if and/or when we are doing the same against our government, the slaughter will be immense. They will do what is necessary to prevent a take over of the rich and elite.
Mygirl is right that the ultimatum were war words spoken by the US. Both Obama and Clinton have said that determination is not negotiable. Again, those are war words. While Obama is trying to minimize how much the US has in stake here with regards to military use, he is a loud voice of regime change. All countries that agreed to the UN resolution are equally involved. Obama is acting as a leader whether he admits to it or not. He used many of the same words to describe the decision by Obama to go to war with Libya. He said it was a just cause. Bush said exactly the same thing when he went into Iraq.
The UK and France get their oil from Libya, not the US. So without being jaundice here they had a dog in the fight and so that is probably why they were anxious to see a regime change.
I agree with Ron Paul that congress should have been given the opportunity to vote on any such agreement to yet get the US into another ME conflict. Again, when Bush was in office, Obama took the same side as Ron Paul bashing Bush for his actions against Iraq. Now that Obama is president he is using all his executive powers and some say, including me, going past what is legally allowed in our constitution. Of course now Obama would say that constitution is a living document and subject to change.
Taking the other side for a moment, I agree that this action has come too late for the rebels, whoever they might be, and in the end the west will be blamed. Just wait and see.
Oh dear I'm agreeing with Alan.
The UN utilizes President Obama as the world's mouthpiece because of course, he had the balls to phone Gadhaffi and talk to him days ago to tell him to stop killing his own citizens. Now, Obama has done his press conference. The UN has agreement, they're meeting in France to determine their action and get on the same page. All good. All sensible. All pragmatic. For once the actions of the global leadership is being taken to protect citizens versus trying a pure capitalistic one. Now, I'm sure France has studied the Bush/Cheney playbook and would like to emulate the Halliburton maneuvers from Iraq in Libya. But, France is going to have to LEAD for a change if they want to eventually profit from regime change in Libya.
Perhaps the focus seems to be on Obama because we're reading American-based web sites and newspapers. It appears that the UK and France will be taking the lead in implementing the no-fly zone.
Governor Switzer on CNN last night said the US portion of the cost will be between $100 million and $300 million a week.
hahaha...just went through a bunch of posts from had-enough...since he likes to do that...not much of any real value, plenty of drivel and anti-America babble...pretty laughable...not a personal attack mind you, just observations
so now we are taking part in an open act of war without congressional approval, and obama is MIA as always when the ---- hits the fan. nice...real friggin nice..
Comparing apples to oranges never works. This is by far the correct way to enter a war.
Do you not remember that Bush defied the U.N. and attacked Iraq? We had no U.N. support, just our allies. 10 countries are involved in Lybia.
What cost of this would you calculate? We already have our military over there. The gas it takes to get there?
President Obama's words mean nothing to the Rebels. Talk, talk, talk.
It looks like President Sarkozy is taking the lead. He has always been a voice of reason, and a Strong Leader for France.. Good for Sarkozy. He has my respect.
Someone has to do the job. It's not coming from anywhere else. Obama's Latin America Tour apparently is not 'sitting" well with American Citizens.
By the time, the Military Jets get to starting the job in Libya, it will be over. We let how many helpless people get slaughtered?. Where is OUR value for life with this present Government?
Gadhafi will still rule.
They really f-cked by not capturing OBL at Bora Bora. I know a shot up soldier who has a metal plate in his head that said Bush & Rumsfeld called it off when he was 1,000 meters from the guy. Said they didn't have enough troops in the area. Of course that was in March 2002 and Sept 2001 gave them 8 months to prepare. Not long enough I suppose.
I did not know we need UN authorization to enter Libya or any other country. It is an organization that watched or participated in Congo Rape, sold weapons in Cambodia (Kampuchea) handed Namibia in to the hands of vicious white South African regime. As far as Russia and China is concerned you can say they are history in Africa from this point on. Most African citizens already realise the best democratic partnership is with UK, US and France. If we consistently follow the need of united front of citizens we might be on to something. May be we may never have to go to bed with bully dictators in the future. Stay with the masses.
Uh, I don't recall the media saying we need to go into Iraq to protect the Kurds or the Marsh Arabs.
Ah, Obama is a liberal, I see why.
I seem to recall the media hounding Bush over the cost of wars and loss of American soldiers.
They don't seem to mention that anymore.
I wonder if that is because Obama is a liberal?
And $4 a gallon gas, that was Bush's oil buddies having too much influence?
So I guess now that the President is a liberal, he's not to blame.
And speaking of oil, didn't we always hear that we went into Iraq over oil?
Funny, I haven't heard anyone mention we are going into Libya over oil, so that can't possibly be a factor. Right?
When was the lat time you even heard the word "Guantanamo" in the media?
Wasn't there daily calls to shut it down when the President was a moderate instead of a liberal?
Ah, but Fox news is the one with a political agenda?
It seems that this no-fly initiative is much more than just that. The UN has clearly taken sides and in addition to establishing this no-fly zone they will aid the rebels in other ways such as attacking Kaddafi forces on the ground.
They demand Kaddafi cease fire but make no such demands of the rebels. These rebels, who are also equipped with tanks and aircraft apparently, can continue their military activities with the blessing of the UN. They are also killing civilians but the UN will most assuredly turn a blind eye.
Such are the consequences of getting involved in affairs we have no business being in.
I looks to me as though due to his actions, the UN has deemed him an illegitimate ruler and explicitly taken the side opposing him. I'm not sure that they were trying to hide that.
How is going to another war without much thought considered anti-America babble? I'm sure saving Libyan population from a horrible dictator that has good amount of hatred for Americans all at the expense of our troops and ever increasing debt.
I know what its like be involved in 2 endless wars with no purpose being a Afghanistan and Iraq veteran. Billions being wasted and our military lives being lost for what. We only use 1% of Lybian oil but will expect to foot large % of the war bill and the grunt work. Like i said before, we don't mind spending billions on endless wars while fighting over crumbs back at home. I guess this is more important than education and infrastructure.
Yeah........ more anti-American babble........
So now Ron Paul says that the Iraq war was not supposed to happen... now he is criticizing the war for costing too much... where was he when it was actually starting??? Why didn't he say that then???? Why now??? oh because he is trying to discredit a democratic president. Get real Ron...
Odin, we already had a popular revolution against a religious extremist authoritarian regime. It happened in 2008.
What did Gadhafi say...Libya is for the Libians? I guess that makes him a genocidal POS.
One thing that bothers me though...he seems a bit too confident with his statements. How stupid does a person have to be to make such bold threats without the means to back it up? I'm willing to bet that someone has his back; someone with the means and motivation. I'll give ya three guesses (and the last two don't count).
Once again the lefties and righties are clueless as to who runs the USA. A President hasn't run our country for 50 years - and the last one that did got turned into Peter Pumpkin Head.
The people who run the world know there is far to many humans on the planet - the longer they can draw out the killing (even if it's by natural disaster) the better their chances of survival (dictatorship). Democracy, freedom, a voice for the people; they all make good bumper stickers and Country Western songs - but are in fact just a smoke screen to what is really happening in the world.
I wonder what would happen if us voters actually caught on and dumped both parties - how would the dictators who run America keep their agendas alive? But that will never happen - the sheep are too comfy in the pen to go beyond the fences that keep us from being all we can be.
sarkozy can't even run his own life, he's telling the world how it should be done? Mighty impressive shot of the aircraft falling to the ground. How many civilians did it kill when it struck the ground? Dunderheads, calling shots from their mansions.
Let the E.U. handle it, we need to focus our resources on this country for a change. We will still reap the rewards of him being ousted and not have to pay for it! Let them pay us back for a couple wars of bailing them out. We need to get out of the habit of fighting everyones little battles for them. The military was not originally created for this purpose, check the constitution. As a member of the military I can say I am getting sick of traveling to far of lands for some B.S. war of someone elses when we have real problems in this country!
The interesting part is; the 'daffi guy is an arrogant,pompus ass trying to hold onto power. His people are more enlightened now than they were years ago,and have had enough. But WE CAN'T afford 3 wars....as it is now,thanks to deadheads in BOTH partys,the troopies on the ground,and in the air may not be getting paid next month........BUT our guys and girls in uniform will continue to do thier job.( so your guys and girls can party in college)...Then we have the guy at 1600 saying;"stop killing your own people"..(the rebels)...let's see,......about 160 years ago when OUR government put down a rebellion with deadly force,..we probably would have been pissed if British,Russian,and French troops showed up at Gettysburg to help out the rebels...............and if the rebels HERE had won in 1865,..there would probably be a different occupant in the White House............just saying............U.S. Army Disabled Veteran
MSNBC: WESTERN ALLIES LAUNCH MILITARY CAMPAIGN AGAINST GHADAFI
Oh boy, another war!
This is all good for the people who own and run the U.S. (Wall Street and corporations generally) and their two political parties the Republicans and Democrats
Because...
1. This will be more big bucks for what President Eisenhower called "The military-Industrial Complex".
2. Libya has a lot of oil for the oil companies (and if they get their hands on it you can bet the price of gasoline WILL NOT come down).
3. It will make the deficit worse so that Obama/Democrats and Republicans will have an even better excuse to destroy or cut Social Security/Medicare and other social, health, safety and environmental programs that benefit the middle class and poor.
Truly a Win-win.
The Obama administration has officially relinquished our sovereignty to the Globalists. It should be crystal clear that Obama is a mere pawn(puppet) on "The Grand Chess Board"!! Relinquishing to another government(the UN body) is an act of "High Treason". Where does Congress stand on this police action? Apparently Ron Paul is one of the few that understands the illegality of this action in Libya. We are all just prisoners now!! The will of the Globalists has superseded our Constitutional Republic!!
In this case, from the aspect of US involvement, I'd say "being at war" is a matter of semantics. There was not a single mention of any "force" being applied from our military. Not on Land, not at Sea, Not in the Air!
We may be supplying refueling for war planes, delivering humanitarian aid to countries who will dispense it and providing intelligence via our multitude of information gathering sources.
We already do all of the above around the world on a daily basis. The only difference is the planes we are refueling and giving intelligence to are "locked and loaded" and will deliver crushing blows to their objectives.
At best (or worst) we are aiding and abetting UN forces carrying out a mission defined by them and sanctioned by their body, of which we are a member. Until we "pull the trigger" on some firepower we are merely a cog in the supply chain, hardly an "act of war" on our part.
I'd walk a 1000 miles to smoke a camel, ya know what I mean!?
Way too little and for 10's of thousands of rebels on the side of America and basic freedoms, way too late. Would somebody please wake up Mr. Obama and tell him there is a world to run. Like it or not America is the police force for the world. We can either get involved and have things turn out for the better or stick our heads in the sand and act as cowards and let the evil run the earth. Mr. Obama, wake up and execute the job that you took and were elected for.
It is very strange: why France? Lybia always was under Italy's sphere of interests. Gaddafi has really pissed off France by awarding the huge 5 billion weaponry contract to Russia. Russians are very smart: they were going to veto UN resolutions, but let it go thru. There is no "popular uprising", perhaps 20000-30000 so-called "freedom fighters". Tripoly has 1.7 mil population: the moment the coalition hit it there will be significant civilian casualties. Every mosque will blame us, there will be another "Death to America" radical islamic country. Gaddafi effectively has the country under control, not allowing Al-Quida and islamic radicals to grow another nest of terrorism. Let them figure out their differencies. There are always were dictators and no democracy in the arab world. Democracy should be in hearts, it cannot be declared. Look where we are with our involvements: Iran, Iraq, Afganistan, Pakistan. Our best arab friends Saudis supplied 15 out of 19 WTC terrorists. Our Nobel PEACE Award Laureate president is ready to start the 3rd war on his watch. Let's help our own people get jobs, cure our education system, take care about our elders: there is a lot to list. No more wars for someone elses interests.
I'm shaking my head at some of you. You b-tch and moan about the UN taking the lead and say we're "relinquishing our sovereignty to the Globalists"! Really?
Do you have kids that could be sent over there to fight a war that ISN'T OUR PROBLEM? I am sick and tired of OUR kids being sent to die!
Let the D@nm French take the lead this time! Let them see what it's like to have their kids come home in coffins!
We. Cannot. Afford. Another. WAR!
A French fighter jet firing on a Libyan military vehicle, eh? I wonder what altitude this military vehicle was flying at. So much for that no-fly zone BS.
What we now have here is these western powers deciding which despots should be deposed. Sure, Kaddafi is a bad man but he was also the recognized head of state for more than 40 years. Now, these western powers have decided to depose him and if they capture him they will spare no expense on a huge show and tell trial.
There are other despots in the world, are they next? What about the dictators in Burma, or Somalia which would make some sense due to the piracy problem. Actually, the worst of the bunch is probably in Iran but the west won’t attack them because they may get a bloody nose. They only want to attack those despots they deem defenseless. Kind of sounds like hypocritical bullying to me.
Wouldn't it be anti French Islamic rhetoric? As for the Islamist Extremist types, they will never like us any less than before, so letting the froggies get into this deal sounds hunky dory to me - Lockerbie victims will soon have a measure of justice done. Maybe Democracy and liberty could become Libyan virtues - Couldn't hurt but the people of Libya will have to dig deep I think to have the will to follow it through.
"Gaddafi effectively has the country under control, not allowing Al-Quida and islamic radicals to grow another nest of terrorism. "
Gaddafi is a terrorist, he's proving it as we speak. He's indiscriminately bombing his own people in his response to a popular uprising. He's sending a message that he doesn't care who he kills as long as he remains in power. He also authorized the Pan Am Lockerbie bombing. Time for the miscreant to be eliminated along with his terrorist clan.
BJs--The Globalist Elite have been using the US to fight its wars for quite awhile now. No one wants the wars to end now, more than I do. But what has happened going back thru the Bush administration is an abdication to the "Shadow Government" Until you see the bigger picture here, you and the general public will continue to put in office, Democrats and Republicans who are spineless!! These two parties are cut from the same cloth and until Americans see that, war will continue forever!!
When have the French ever done anything that didn't benefit France? You watch, Total Oil logos on every oil depot in Libya within a month. The French president is on the nose with his own people, this will lift his poll percentage. It's good that they're there but what a shame about their motives. The Brits just let the PanAm/Lockerbie bomber go and now they're in on the act as well. Why? You can bet your boots it's not to protect the poor Libyan rebels. And PLEEEZE, no criticism about damned if they do and damned if they don't. Just wait for the outcome and then have your say.
I am a bit surprised by the left here, as they claim to be the party of compassion and proclaim to be the side that cares about people......but is that only people who agree with them? I mean, when it comes to protecting innocent women and children in Libya....suddenly we must evaluate the cost? Really? We have been on the biggest spending spree in our nations history for the past two years........wasting money left and right.....but now we are called upon to protect innocent civilians and the left has become fiscally responsible?
Our President has called for the people in the middle east to revolt.....and was instrumental in disassembling one of our strongest allies in Egypt....but now that the people have risen against the brutal dictators who have ruled them for so long......we are suppose to simply stand by and watch those dictators murder those who we encouraged to rise up? Who gets to decide which countries we care about and which ones we don't? If the dictator is a friend of the Presidents pastor, does that mean we can't defend the innocent women and children he is murdering?
"We need International involvement"....well Mr President...you've got it!
"We need Arab support"....well Mr President....the Arab League is begging for your help!
"We need a UN Resolution"....well Mr President...you've got it and broad power to enforce it.
What's it going to take....does the NCAA have to agree to put Louisville back in the tournament so your bracket will be in tact before you step up and decide to do what's right?
Somebody please explain to me how, if we "can't afford" unemployment benefits, we can afford not to tax marijuana?
Don't smoke it myself but will happily accept tax money from those who want to.
Those French planes are safe ... for now.
Once U.S. forces become more heavily engaged, the French will probably lose several planes to friendly fire.
Instead of wasting time and resources going after small military targets, they should just find out where Gadhafi is, send in a few cruise missiles, and take him out with a surgical strike.
When you cut the head off of the snake, the body dies.
Lets put your silly question in context: If rebels in America were fighting a brutal dictator that begin killing American citizens during peacefully protest, I would hope a lot of Americans would join military veterans like myself in helping the rebels to effectively use fighter jets and guns to take that dictator out.
True about the rebels, the difference between now and then is the speed of the traveling word is much better and you can send a military force anywhere in the world within about 12-24 hours... That changes alot of things and allows more nations to get involved. Difference from our uprising against the English for similar reasons, even the civil war had reasons like taxation without representation and tariffs on the souths cotton. And it was ok for the U.S. to use force in the civil war and the English to use force in the revolution. The difference is we won..lol and Mohamar has pissed off alot of people in the last 30 years and has very few friends so people are taking the opportunity to get rid of him. The good thing is at least the Europeans are handling it, thats the way it should be. We shouldnt be getting into it. Let them do their own dirty work for a change and be the war mongers. They also get to pick up the bill for it as well which we all know that we cant afford right now because we are in so much debt and completely broke we cant even feed our own people! We need to focus on the U.S. for a change! Good job France for doing something finally too!
The Devil,
The peaceful protestors, as you them, took up arms against their government. As long as they were "winning" they were soldiers and didn't want any intervention. Suddenly, they're losing, then they become civilians, and they're crying for international intervention.
Once again our political leaders feel America has to be the world's policeman. I say enough. It's time to get the hell out of the ME, bring all our troops home from all corners of the world, stop the foreign aid, and start working on rebuilding OUR country.
We are involved with two fiascos already that have cost us trillions of dollars and way too many American lives. It's time to stop.
Even a nation with a tiny military, (Denmark), sent 9 planes to aid. This action by the UN has more merit than any military action post WWII. For the first time since WWII we look good in the eyes of the rest of the free world. Before the rancor starts with 'who cares what the rest of the world things?"--think of this--How will we regain our financial footing? Our factory orders will skyrocket for heavy machinery, and food due to the crisis in Japan. Canada is our #1 source of oil and a truly great trading partner.
We are earning the world's trust back and will reap the positive rewards of our current policies. We destabilized an entire region with the invasion of Iraq. If we had not invaded, the Iraqis would have demanded their freedom as the rest of the Arab world is. We had a cushy "oil for food" program that was flushed down the toilet. Let's stand with the balance of the free world.
Dave iKentucky---excellent posts
YELDARB #1.55- Where did you get the notion that Obama was elected to run the world? Obama, the Great Organizer that he is, can't even run a single country. How could you expect anyone with as little political experience as Obama has, to be the Great Overlord of the world. He's managed to piss off half the country by not keeping is campaign promises, could you imagine half a world pissed off at him?
KeithStone # 1.54- I know exactly what you mean, but you better make it 10,000 miles.
I hope President and Mrs. Obama have a good time on their tour in Latin America.
The French have started the bombing, while 11 American Warships, and submarines are there also. The US is now launching Missiles. It now seems to be a very well-coordinated effort from our Allies, with Obama making a 1-minute speech today on what is the goal. What Goal? Another weak Appeasement Speech--nothing defined.
Let's hope that by protecting the what ever is left of the Civilian Libyans, does not lead our Allies and the US into another prolonged War with boots on the ground. The job has to be quick, knowing the most important targets, including Gadhafi, then get the H--------out of there.
All we need is to be at War with A Bi-Polar, Schizophrenic Crazy Man for years to come--please Gadhafi family Clan, get your Father some real medications, and not supply him with opiates, or puffing the 'smoke" weed.
"Operation, Odyssey Dawn".
Obama commits a unconstitutional act, puts our men, woman and children in harms way, attacks another country and what does he do? Takes his family out of the US on Vacation, again on the taxpayer $$$$$$. I thought this country was broke......
Ron Paul was one of only 6 republicans to vote against the iraq war. He has publicly opposed the war since before the invasion. He did say it then and he is saying it now. I don't think this is disputed fact. Learn to use youtube or google or wikipedia. Its not hard. If you can navigate this site it should be a breeze. You will come off a lot less ignorant if you actually know what you are saying.
Yeah, because the governor of Montana is the guy to ask about federal spending. I'm sure he knows where every penny of military spending is going. Pfft...
You're getting pretty close to saying something that some confederates would agree with you on in this country from 1861-1865. One mans dictator is another mans president just like one mans rebel is another mans terrorist.
In response to: imrightnotyou
WHAT THE F....... Start BOMBING this guy NOW NOW NOW!!!!!
Don't get me wrong I do not think we need to be on the ground BUT the coalition forces collectively going in with only AIR SUPPORT does make sense for the simple reason it will change the slaughter of the civilian population.
What makes the conflict in Libya any different than what occurred in America in the early 1860s. One half of the country going to war against another, an internal conflict that we would readily tell outsiders to keep out of our business. And as we've already demonstrated repeatedly during our history, we have, and would again, use military force to subjugate rebellion amongst our citizens. Patton and Eisenhower duringthe years between the World Wars did just that.
Now, as for peaceful civilians being attacked. It is not a requirement for a mob, en masse, to be considered legal combatants under the laws of war, however as a violation of a sovereign nations rule of law (despite what we think of it with regard to its democratically just principles) still provides for the ruling party's right to restore order by means necessary. And I noted more than just a few very armed civilians preparing to do battle, burning down government building, and looting arsenals, long before Qaddafi fully mobilized his military. It was more than OK, and the cheering section was out behind All those rebels when they were on the initial march to Tripoli, but when the legal ruler begins to retake control is all of a sudden becomes a criminal massacre of the peaceful civilians?
Yeah, Qaddafii is no more than a vicious violent thug, and it would appear the rest of the Mid-East and Europe is looking for any excuse to push him from power, but to violate the sovereignty of another nation in dealing with its own internal conflict is in itself a violation of international law. Isn't that what all the hub-bub was about with the Contra problems in the 80s?
I thought the President cannot authorize even a limited war without the approval of Congress???????
Pictures are appearing of Michelle Obama and the girls attending a festival. How nice. Of course they will be staying in a very expensive suite. I wish I could provide that for my daughter but I just filled up my car at the cost of $75.00. I'm hoping this $75.00 will last at least 5 days.
oldcavscout
mba-grad student...
Ahh.. another good old boy right winger tossing out insults.. figures.
I dunno we he will, but I will. Bush and Cheney screwed the pooch big time by calling off the search for UBL in order to purse their personal desire to go after some two bit dictator in Iran. But then based on what other have posted here you won't believe anything you're told by someone with more knowledge than you because it goes against what your corporate masters want you to believe.
.
To keep the question from being 'stupid'
Need to be specific, define some terms
OK ?
.
Who are these Rebels ?
Why are they Rebelling, about what ?
How did they learn to fly jets ?
Where did they get these jets ?
etc
.
Otherwise ...
Just an Exercise in Hormones
Like that famous example ...
.
"What are you rebelling against?"
"Whatta ya got?"
.
(smile)
.
You guys crack me up. This isn't a war, any more than Afganistan was when Bush took us in to that hellhole. But then Bush was a Rebuplician and you guys wouldn't even think of questioning him, would you?
Hippocrates, all of you. Anything you say is null and void and proof of your lack of intelligence.
Ryan in Texas-
I don't hear news sources saying that we need to go into Libya to protect Libyans. I hear some pundits saying it, but they are not news. They are pundits. Actually Ryan, I do remember outrage in the media over Saddam gasing the Kurds. But REagan had no interest in doing anything about because Saddam was his friend. They don't seem to mention that anymore.
No, the high gas prices are still the result of oil company fixing and supply control, just like before. And the captains of that industry are still Bush Sr's buddies, just like before.
Well, if we didn't go over there for oil, what did we go over there for? There were no WMD's, Bush knew that. There were no WMD programs, Bush knew that too. Catching Saddam, a small town punk, at the cost of nearly a trillion bucks and counting? Only a lunatic or moron would take that on.
Basically it was control of a Middle Eastern country for the purpose of securing an oil source that we could control. What Bush didn't count on was that the Iraqis were not going to roll over this time like they had for his dad. The whole thing went south. The mission was not accomplished. The fat that we are not reaping the rewards of Iraqi oil is not the media's fault it was due to a botched effort on the part of the Bush Administration.
No one is talking about Libyan oil because Libya has very little oil. And what little they do selll, the U.S. does not buy.
There was. But congressional efforts to block the closing, mostly by Republicans, and to move the prisoners to the U.S. proper sunk the plan. The Republicans also waged an effective fear campaign with assertions of the dangers of bringing those guys to American soil. Like we don't know how to handle dangerous people. We got cons that would eat your 11o pound Arab terrorist susp[ect for lunch. W don't have a problem keeping them here.
Yes. We agree on that.
Thank you for posting this. The article in your link is informative and has started a healthy debate here. Its a shame the comment was collapsed by the community. I guess we will see how many people take the red pill and click the plus sign. V
Jo Ann-666954
The Constitution provides for the President to initiate in military action without Congressional approval. Tea Partiers here should be able to confirm that be referring to the pocket copy of the Constitution they boast about having with them all of the time. But then, of course, they would have to have read it.
What does this have to do with anything? While Bush was getting us into two wars, Laura was appearing on daytime talkshows discussing her cookie recipes. Their twin daughters were getting arrested for trying to get into bars with false ID. What's your point?
Obama commits a unconstitutional act
Did you say the same thing in 2003? How about 1990 or 1988? I'm going to take a wild guess and say no because the US was saving the world from evil dictators and promoting democracy. Funny how a president of a different color (blue that is) makes all the difference.
Yank @1.36
Im glad to see that you are really up to speed on the whole Bin Laden thing.
BTW, its Tora Bora.....Bora Bora is an island in the south pacific, but you were close. /s/
so letting the froggies get into this deal sounds hunky dory to me -
You seem to forget that without those amphibians, we could still be paying taxes to Great Britain.
Hey Dave-Kentucky...thanks.
I thought everyone knew that one of the major accomplishments in IRAQ for the Bush/Cheney administration was getting "their" oil company set up there with office headquarters. And, why wouldn't Sarkosy want a piece of the Libyan oil action for his people. Of course he does. As for Britian, they have not forgotten Lockerbie, nor should they.
As they say in the musical Chicago..."He Had it Coming!"
Oldcavscout...
Yeah...sure whatever. I'm gonna honor myself with a doctorate degree in a few years too...that should really piss you off.
Also..you should now darn well that OBL has been protected by the Bush regime for many many years. Of course that guy should have met his maker a long time ago. But, he's got some lucky charm bracelet or working for him. Maybe he's protected by the devil himself. IDK. Maybe that's a redundant oxymoron.
and last...the
p.s. for all the constitutional scholars out there. Oh wait, that's right our President is one of those. We have not declared a war. So Congress will just have to focus on the stopgap budget for now and the other business of the country that is their responsibility to conduct.
BTW, its Tora Bora.....Bora Bora is an island in the south pacific, but you were close.
lol! I see geography isn't their strong suit either. And they support cutting education. This gets better every day.
d-3173613 said-
Please read what Rom Paul said:
Now hop over to Wikipedia and read their discussion on Article 1 of the Constitution. Ron Paul is wrong. The intent is not indesputedly clear. In fact, the Constitution is quite vague about this, and probably for good reason.
That said, this whole discussion is senseless. The United States has not declared war on anyone. This is a U.N. action, granted we are a key player, but no one has declared war on anyone, so any reference to the Constitution in relation to Libya is, at this point in time, a misinformed one.
Hey look. I don't want American boots on the ground over there, like many of you. But if we can support other countries in their effort to get rid of Ghaddafy, I'm willing to get on board, as long as it is quick and we get out pronto.
To all of those who've been saying for years that Obama is weak, or that Obama is a Socialist Commie... Congratulations, he's proven you wrong. He's every bit as violent, trigger happy, and willing to act without the proper authority as any Republican. Obama is more of a Republican than most Republicans. Not in the sense that he's violent, as I may sound to be suggesting, but so much of what he's done over the past few years on any given issue has been so far from the image that the GOP pushes onto him without any merit, they don't realize that he's practically one of their own. If he called himself a Republican, he'd be considered the new Reagan.
There was a right and legal way to approach this Libya situation, and a wrong way. We've gone the wrong way. As far as I can tell, this counts as a civil war. On the same grounds that we can't invade Sudan, we shouldn't be able to actively strike in Libya as we've apparently just done. Come to a consensus with the UN, announce that the No-Fly Zone is in effect, and then attack if it's violated. This is pre-emptive strike. I know that people are dying in Libya already, and that this would make things take that much longer, but as much as it sucks for them, it's illegal to interfere like we just have for a reason. One country, or small block of countries, does not have the authority to determine the government of another country.
Maybe we really are getting closer to the distopia predicted by so many works of fiction, where some overriding power determines the fate of everyone around.
Maybe Obama should be held accountable for this act, which to me, sounds highly illegal. He could be tried jointly with Bush.
This is apples to oranges.... Beyond the fact that we wouldn't have a president for 40+ years, if we had one making statements such as "the streets will run red with blood", "those who don't love me deserve to die", and threatening to turn our country into hell unless he can stay in power; one can just see Congress beginning to launch impeachment hearings.
Libya doesn't have the same constitutional authority to force the ouster of their leader; which leaves revolution as their only means to get rid of this despot.
And in actual fact, Gadhafi does need to go, for one very big and very over riding situation. He's mentally unstable, unpredicatable, in fact downright insane. For a long time there was this cold war with the USSR, but here's the thing. Russia might have been brutal, responsible for various ugly acts, etc. But there was no reason to believe that they were utterly insane. Gadhafi on the other hand is, going from periods of utter lethargy, to fits of anger with violent consequences. When a person's medical and mental health is so far gone, that a person is way off the deep end, and completely detached from reality, this is not the sort of person one wants in charge of a military. Among democratic nations that have the consittutional authority; someone who is completely off their rocker would be removed from power by legal channels. And this before they start destroying their own citizens, and backing their citizens into a corner where the citizens have no choice but to revolt.
How many civilians will be killed by the missle bombardments? This is so reminiscent of Iraq, the massive shelling, reducing everything to rubble. Why is it necessary to use a club to kill a roach? I wonder what the civilians will say when they discover that their loved one were killed by 'friendly fire?' Why should making the world 'safe for democracy' cause more deaths?
Hey tonybeeerm..don't worry I know Lockerbie is in Scotland not Great Britain. But hey, still part of the UK.
dEd Grimley..i hear ya. But, you don't think the international community should step in when the rebels can't launch a real civil war unless we or someone provides weapons for them. Do you want to do that? Would you rather we give weapons to the rebels? I don't think so. And, the guy, Gadhaffi is delusional, clearly. So, let cooler heads prevail. Me personally, I don't like killing at all, don't like it all. But, the UN put up sanctions, the US President did call him. Gadhaffi stood up said one thing, while he was sending his loyalists out to kill more people. He made choices. Killed children by blowing off their heads. Come on now. Something's gotta give.
how in the world did America get involved in this? this is an aggressive criminal act being carried out by this "coalition" ! obama is bush's twin; and if this doesn't prove it nothing will ! paid for of course with more borrowing and printing by the fed ! terrible terrible turn of events. our constitution and what our founding fathers gave to us is dead !
The Liberals and Democrats love to deride the cost of the "Bush" wars even though Obama and has continued and even bolstered them. I wonder if they will give Obama the credit he deserves for getting America involved in this one?
That Nobel Peace Prize becomes more of a joke every day, which is hard to believe possible.
oldcavscout
re the vote in congress on military action in Iraq:
from articles.cnn.com
Looks to me like it WAS actually a majority of congress. Wouldn't there have to be a majority to go to war? I'm seriously not trying to be nitpicky-it's just that a lot of people seem to have very short memories when it comes to the Iraq war-as you pointed out yourself.
The only 'revolution' we will ever see in this country will be liberals fighting conservatives, if these comments are any indication. And then it will only be a shouting and insulting match.
MBA-GradStudent:
Great Britain is the term used for the island containing the contiguous nations of England, Scotland and Wales. England, Scotland and Wales together with the province of Northern Ireland, form the country officially known as "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" or simply the United Kingdom.
So glad to see my tax dollars spent on elementary and high school geography & history lessons have not gone to waste (sarc) Love your name,
When you've got the largest (and most expensive) military operation on the globe, you've just got to flex your muscles every now and then. Iraq, Afghanistan... now Libya. When does the UN declare a "no fly" zone over these countries to prevent U.S. forces from slaughtering innocent civilians with our model airplane drones? Destroying the population and infrastructure of other countries must be acceptable when God's on your side. Legally, He must be approving the waste more lives and $billions of tax dollars, as the Constitution certainly doesn't authorize it.
Odyssey Dawn......the named the operation after a pole dancer?
Hey tonybeeerm..don't worry I know Lockerbie is in Scotland not Great Britain. But hey, still part of the UK.
Not worried, MBA. I've always been told that Hell was under the earth, but in reality, it's right here in Michigan. If you don't believe me, look it up.
It's almost funny seeing the "reds" protesting a military action.
America = Stupid is as Stupid Does!
The US Political Leaders have learned nothing, nada, squat from their police engagements in the middle east!
We have no idea how Iraq will turn out from our "saving action" in THEIR country, let alone Afghanistan, or the rest of the Middle East! From what we are able to tell so far about the US trying to mold the Middle East in our likeness, ruh roh!
The US should take care of their own and clean up their own society before trying to force others to be like us!
Hey, I have a legitimate question -- how do comments get "collapsed by community" and who determines that?
I always open the comments and read them and, as with this discussion board, often don't understand why they were collapsed. Unless something is crude/mean/obscene etc., why would we want to suppress them? It often seems like a comment is collapsed simply because people disagree with the comment.
@ d-3173613 - As long as the rebels are American's, and it's an internal conflict, I've no problem with American's fighting American's. To be honest, doesn't anyone see it coming to that anyway? I don't see any alternative to another American civil war, given how people treat each other and their views these days. Anyone who disagrees with your opinion, or has a different set of values is somehow your enemy....this country used to be based upon Freedom to live your life as you see fit as long as you're not hurting others.
A Rebellion is one thing though D, and honestly, the US Government should support any rebellion/protest en-masse by the people, our country is founded upon the principle of doing precisely that. What Ghadafi's doing however, is using overwhelming military superiority to silence the voice of those protesting/rebelling against his regime. And if that happened during a civil war/coup d'etat in the US? I'd expect the international community to do something about it also.
Let's wait until that is even a remote possibility, then worry about what should or should not be done.
hmmm, good question. What would I do if rebels were flying aircraft? Well, if I had a President slaughtering my fellow Americans, I'd support the idea.
Lots and lots of excellent comment here and most making sense, from both sides of politics. What I want to know is why there are so many collapsed opinions at the top of the page. I love the controversial stuff, that's why I tune in. I was under the impression America was the land of free speech. It's only words after all and aren't we supposed to be grownups?
My question is how can Obama one day say he will NOT apply troops to this campaign but the next day our troops are firing million dollars of missiles into the country?
At what point does his lies in leadership qualify for impeachment?
Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper suggested that outside powers hoped their intervention would be enough to turn the tide against Gadhafi and allow Libyans to force him out.
=======================
I'm glad one of these "leaders" has the kahones to admit exactly what the UN and it's partners intent really is. You wouldn't hear that out of bush or Obama.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
B Murphy
@ d-3173613 - As long as the rebels are American's, and it's an internal conflict, I've no problem with American's fighting American's. To be honest, doesn't anyone see it coming to that anyway? I don't see any alternative to another American civil war, given how people treat each other and their views these days
B murphy,
Don't worry we won't have to use American troops. Per the agreement bushie signed with the Canadians we'll just ask them to come and do our dirty work.
What Ghadafi is doing is putting down an armed uprising. Interesting, when the protesters were winning they were "soldiers" and didn't need our help. Now that they are losing, they're "civilians" being massacred and are screaming for the international community to protect them. They made the choice. They need to live with the consequences.
The hypocracy of too many on here is this: last fall, you were "angry" over how much the government was spending. All I keep hearing is how broke we are and that we can not keep spending money the way we are. Now we've involved ourselves in another military action that comes with a pretty high price tag. Where's the outrage. You don't see China, Russia, India or many other countries rushing to fight the world's fires. What you do see is countries like China and India killing us economically.
How many of you preaching we need to do this also want us to go into Yemen? Probably not to may.The circumstances are pretty much the same. However, no one is throwing around the word OIL and besides I have a feeling most of you probably have no idea where Yemen even is.
Amy411-----I agree with you about the collapsed comments. It makes no sense on why most of them are done, no matter what the posters political persuasion is.
Qadaffi forces kill civilians - bad boy. U.N. forces kill civilians in Tripoli - somehow okay. There will be guerilla fighting going on in Libya for a long time with lots of civilian losses, same as has been going on in Iraq and Afghanistan. Will the west never learn? MYOB.
North Korean murderers Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong Un, take notice of western military power. Your intended invasion plans directed at South Korea will not succeed.
REPEAT THE SAME MISTAKES AND EXPECT A DIFFERENT RESULT.
Are all of you like 10 years old and do not know about those US Military Actions that lead up to the War At Iraq.
(Unclassified) First Actions to comply with the 1973 War Powers Resolution (proving most of the uninformed above that Iraq was/is not an "Illegal War"). This is why the "First Gulf War" was measured in hours (just like this US Libyan Action) without a US Declaration of War.
(Unclassified) Second, 1998 US Declares War With Iraq (no longer have to worry about time constraints). First Actions, the organizing, funding, arming of hundreds of thousands of assassins and insurgents to "Overthrow the Iraqis President and the Iraqis Government to Liberate the Iraqis People". These assassins and insurgents were hired mostly from the Shiites that came from Iran to Iraq after the massive unemployment after the Fall of the Shah. This would be like another Nation hiring the over 23 Million Illegal Aliens in the US to "Overthrow the US President and the US Government to Liberate the US People". This is why the stating, funding, organizing, etc. the Overthrow of a Sovereign Nations Government is to Declare War per International Laws, Hague Convention, Geneva Convention, etc.. This is why H.R. 4655 Iraqis Liberation Act is the Declaration of War With Iraq after being signed by the US President. This Declaration of War authorized the funding, organizing, arming of the hundreds of thousands of Shiite assassins and insurgents. READ THE F**KING LAW, H.R.4655, as demanded by President Clinton's 1998 State of the Union Address. These hundreds of thousands of Shiite assassins and insurgents as hired by the US were caught and executed as Traitors, the same that would be done under the US Insurrection Act.
(Unclassified). This is when President Saddam Hussein was declared a Dictator as "Dictator Massacring His Own People" by the President Clinton White House. First failed US attempt at Overthrow. Prior to this attempt President Saddam Hussein announced his "Modernization (Westernization) of the Arab World", that incited the Islamic World, including the rare Death Penalty Fatawa against him as Modernization equals Westernization per Holy Koran and current Islamic Laws that mean Collaboration to the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers as "Die a Horrible Murdering". So the Islamic World sends their Oil Rich Islamic Lobbyists to US Congress and the US President on behalf of the 1.4 Billion Islamic Believers Worldwide demanding the Overthrow of the Iraqis President and the Iraqis Government.
(Unclassified) The Oil Corporations read the fine print of President Saddam Hussein's Modernization (Westernization) of the Arab World including Women's Rights and saw the the Iraqis Nationalization of Iraq Resources (Oil) that would effectively take control away from the Oil Corporation (US and Foreign) and give it back to the Iraqis. They immediately sent their Oil Rich Lobbyists to US Congress and the US President demanding the Overthrow of the Iraqis President and the Iraqis Government. This was the final nail in President Saddam Husseins coffin, as the US was losing International Oil Resources. These Oil Rich Lobbyists included the Saudi Arabians, Kuwaitis, Mexicans, Canadians, BP, Exxon, etc. that for the longest time (even before the First Gulf War, against the UN Sanctions) had been and still are buying cheap easy to get Iraqis Oil and selling it to the US for Huge Profits as Oil Laundrying. This is similar to what is going on at Libya as the Europeans (recipients of the Libyan Oil, 85% or more) are demanding US Military Actions (suckered in by the UN).
DOES THIS SOUND SIMILAR TO LIBYA.
(Unclassified) Like the start to of Iraq, Gaddafi abandoned his pursuit of Nuclear Weapons, Weapons of Mass Destruction, and Nuclear Power Plants. Condemned the previous terrorist action, actively went after the Al Quada International Franchise. Previous cooperation with the US, the offering of the capture of Osama Bin Laden to the US ; and what did he get for that, US Bombing and Cruise Missile Attacks, blowing up Baby Food Factories, Medical Facilities, etc. with the Islamic World declaring the US the "Great Satan". This is the same as occurred during the First US Military Action under the Declaration of War With Iraq, 1998 Operation Desert Fox, instead of destroying Iraqis Government Buildings and locations, attacking the Urban Poor Areas of Baghdad, per CINC pre selected targets. This was stated by the Islamic World as "The (US) Great Satan Murdering the Poor of Islam". YOU DO NOT F**K with the Poor of Islam. This created Worldwide Hatred of the US by the 1.5 Billion Islamic Believers, with those later Islamic Military (aka Jihadist, Terrorists) Actions as supported by the 1.5 Billion Islamic Believers thru Mandatory Islamic Tithes.
IS THIS SOUNDING LIKE LIBYA YET.
(Unclassified) As far as Weapons capabilities. I have TOLD all of you over, and over, and over, and over again. Go subscribe to Jane's (the Authoritative Reference for all Military Capabilities Internationally as used by all Militarises.) This will make you informed as to what Libya has. As to why I kept saying anti aircraft. And Cruise Missiles are an AREA weapon, not a precision weapon. This is why the Yemen Government, 2011, has told General Petraeus NO more USN Ship Launched Cruise Missiles (Unclassified MSN Article). YOU DO NOT USE CRUISE MISSILES you use HARM (High speed Anti Radiation Missile) Missiles to kill their Radar, and neutralize the Anti Aircraft Missiles.
(Unclassified) I also told all of you over and over and over again. The Rebels do NOT care who's aircraft they shoot down. How many of you know how to visually recognize the aircraft of other nations, yet alone be able to see them without binoculars. So when the first US or NATO aircraft is shot down, who is going to rescue them (if we do, then we formally have US Military Forces on the Ground). Currently the "Rebels" are killing first then checking Identifications on the dead bodies; so if a US or NATO pilots bail out and is shot and killed by the "Rebels" are all of you going to attend their Memorial Services and tell the families sorry for being stupid and getting them killed unnecessarily (I told you the situation so you cannot claim ignorance, so did this article. The Rebel captured aircraft, and the Nigerians killed then their Identification checked. I previously told you this would happen as sh!t that happened before in other (Classified) Countries.). In many of these cases if you do not look like them, then you are automatically the enemy, until proven otherwise (usually after they killed you and check your Identification).
(Unclassified) So if you go in to Rescue the downed US or NATO Pilots at Libya when does this become another Blackhawk Down (Mogadishu, Somalia). By the way the movie, does notdepict how many people actually had to do the "Mogadishu Mile".
ArchStanton,
I TOLD YOU BEFORE:
Throw the Hundred Million US Civilians in the US Military (that are not the US Military nor the US Contractors) on US Unemployment. Currently the ONLY things keeping the US out of a Great Depression (25% Unemployment) or worse (since the Laws that made the Causes of Depressions Illegal were eliminated) is the US Military keeping employed the hundred million US Civilians. You want to cut the US Defense Budget by 50% get rid of them and fill their positions with cheaper US Military Personnel. That would include the 1,000 US Civilians on Secretary of Defense Gates's Personal Staff. And all those thousands of US Civilians at the Pentagon with NO US Military Experience nor US Intelligence Agency Experience, especially the Political Appointees, Interns, etc..
And PUT YOUR MONEY WERE YOUR MOUTH IS DEMAND ALL US MILITARY INSTALLATIONS IN YOUR STATE CLOSE. You suck up all the US Civilians Unemployed after that.
(Unclassified) Again stop being so uniformed. I told you before. President Obama's Policies "Gave Iraq to Fundamentalist Islamic Iran on a Golden Platter" - Saudi Arabian Government. Fundamentalist Islamic Iran is the longtime ally of the USSR (now Russian Federation) ever since the Iran Iraq Wars. This is why the Russian Federation got the 2011 Iraqis Oil Contracts. Because both the Chinese and the Russian Federation is supporting Fundamentalist Islamic Iran for Iranian Oil with Weapons, Technology (some previous US Technology), the Chinese got the rest of the Iraqis Oil Contracts. And the US got NOTHING. And if you think President Obama did not know this, this is why prior to the BP Spill he was going to authorize the Oil Exploration of the North Atlantic (North Atlantic Storms and Ice that sunk HMS Titanic)(US Must replace the lost easy to get Iraqis Oil, by doing more high risk deep water Oil drilling).
(Unclassified) The other reason the price of Oil is going up. Is currently the Fundamentalist Islamic Iranians control the Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman using Chinese and Russian Federation modern Weapons Systems. Effectively chopping off any Oil Tanker shipments from the Kuwaitis and the Saudi Arabians to the US. I already told you that the Canadians, Mexicans, Kuwaitis, Saudi Arabians, BP, Exxon, etc. have been buying cheap easy to get Iraqis Oil and then selling it to the US for HUGE Profits, as Oil Laundrying since before the First Gulf War.
Who cares. Until the Glass Steagall Acts are reinstated we will have another "Crisis" of 54.6 Trillion USDs that will sink the US into something greater than the Great Depression. The Glass Steagall Acts made Illegal those Causes of the 1907 Depression, 1929-1939 Great Depression and the 60-100 Trillion USD current "Global Economic Crisis" consisting of the "Mortgage Crisis", "Wall Street Crisis", "Financial Crisis", "Banking Crisis", "Credit Crisis", etc.. Previous attempts to "Regulate" the Causes, 1907 to 1933, failed so they outright made the Causes Illegal with the Glass Steagall Acts. The Glass Steagall Acts worked successful from 1933 to 2000.
As far as Social Security, that is NOT an "Entitlement" (see deductions at bottom of pay stub). That is a life long contributed Fund. The reason the US Politicians call it an "Entitlement" (same classification as Public Assistance) is to make everyone believe that it is not a Contributed Fund, as they raided/raped those Funds from Social Security and do not want to have to pay back those Funds.
As far as Medicare, that is managed by the Insurance Corporations, NOT the US Government. This is known by President Obama, as he stated on Face the Nation, September 20, 2009. He also knew that the Insurance Corporations managing Medicare are "padding" their costs so that they make profits of $17 Billion to $18 Billion per year. And yet his Health Care Reform does nothing to stop this and even rewards the Insurance Corporations, listed in the possible new source of Revenues section of the Health Care Reform, the Insurance Corporations due to the Health Care Reform will get $67 Billion USDs, the Medical Device Industry $20 Billion, the Pharmaceuticals Industry $23 Billion. (Whythe US Citizens are going to foot the Bill of $1.7 Trillion USDs for these paybacks for Political Campaign Contributions (How President Obama currently has over $1 Billion in Campaign Funds. Follow the Money.)).
(Unclassified). For all the uninformed posters. Since you do not know, a Civil War (not the US Civil War, where both sides wore uniforms, used Conventional Warfare Strategies and Tactics) is Asymmetric Warfare, NOT Conventional Warfare. The Strategic and Tactical Goals are NOT the same for Asymmetric Warfare and Conventional Warfare. Historically, Conventional Warfare automatically loses against Asymmetric Warfare. You go do the research, I refuse to spoon feed all of you and contribute to the broken US Education System nor possibly disclose those matters that would get me into trouble.
I blame President Obama for listening to his 24/7 US Military Adviser, USN Admiral Mullen, Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff, Cold War Era USN Conventional Surface Warfare only, that has NEVER been trained nor experienced in Asymmetric Warfare training and experience nor US Military Ground Combat. Asymmetric Warfare and US Military Ground Combat is NOT something that can be learned nor experienced from books or from Advisers, training only allows you to survive long enough to gain experience. This is why Iraq and Afghanistan turned FUBAR (F**ked Up Beyond All Reason), as I listed in detail at other Newsvine Posts (Topics).
You go walk down the streets of the US with an automatic weapon and proclaim yourself an "innocent civilian" and see what happens to you.
Go ask the Kurdistanis PKK, HPG, etc. about arming, training, their "innocent" women and children. Once again proving people in the US have NO idea what Asymmetric Warfare is, and what Conventional Warfare is NOT. And by not knowing the differences getting the US into "Unwinable (Asymmetric) Wars".
Their self interest is the Libyan Oil that they get. 85% Libyan Oil goes to Europe.
Give me one example of a successful UN Mission, that achieved their stated long term end goals before the Military Actions. For any one example that you can give I can state at least tenfailures for each success. These UN Failures cost millions of lives, billions USDs.
I already told you before about Canada Oil Laundrying cheap easy to get Iraqis Oil (Canadian Oil Laundrying started before the First Gulf War). Because the Canadians realized, 2010, that President Obama's Iraq Policies would result in the loss of the Iraqis Oil they started to squeeze Oil from Oil Shale and Oil Sand (expensive process, tons of shale or sand processed to get a few barrels of Oil). Even the Mexicans that also Oil Laundry Iraqis Oil realized that President Obama's Iraq Policies would result in their loss of Iraqis Oil to Laundry so they authorized more high risk deep water Oil Drilling in the Gulf of Mexico and Pacific, 2011. Even the Kuwaitis and Saudi Arabians were Oil Laundrying Iraqis Oil. The Kuwaitis even diagonal drilled into the Iraqis Oil Fields (An Act of War, why they were invaded by the Iraqis Military, as well as the corrupt management of the Iraqis Oil for Food Program, I should know as we were there and had to escape and evade into Saudi Arabia during the Iraqis Military Invasion of Kuwait). Even the Saudi Arabians knew that President Obama's Policies would result in their loss of cheap easy to get Iraqis Oil, so they started Oil Explorations in the deep sand desert areas of Saudi Arabia. The 2011 Fundamentalist Islamic Iranian control of the Persian Gulf and the Gulf of Oman, has stopped the Oil Laundrying of Canada, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, BP, Exxon, etc. of Iraqis Oil; as well as the Iraqis Oil Contracts going to the Chinese and Russian Federation, Allies of Fundamentalist Islamic Iran, due to President Obama's Iraq Policies ("President Obama gave Iraq to Fundamentalist Islamic Iran on a golden platter" - Saudi Arabian Government, and they should know since Fundamentalist Islamic Iran can now stop the Saudi Arabian Oil Supertankers from reaching the US.).
NOPE. We destablized Iraq long before the Liberation of Iraq. Starting with the Arms Embargoes, UN Sanctions, and No Fly Zones. Think about the UN imposing the same things against the US as imposed by the Chinese and previous US Enemy, the USSR. The 1998 Declaration of War with Iraq, 1998 US Military Operation Desert Fox. Like I said before DOING THE SAME MISTAKES AND EXPECTING DIFFERENT RESULTS.
The crapola at Iraq is due to the lack of knowledge by the current administration. 1. Kurdistanis were never will never be Iraqis (Arabs, Sunnis, Arabic), and ever since the Iran Iraq Wars were the ARMED (men, women, children) Allies of Fundamentalist Islamic Iran (USSR Backed, Persians, Shiite, Farsi). 2. The millions of Shiites Iranians from Iran that flooded the Southern half of Iraq after the Fall of the Shah of Iran were escaping the massive Unemployment at Iran (just like the over 23 Million Illegal Aliens in the US, Iraq did not enforce their Illegal Alien Law either and look what it got them.). They are still the loyal citizens of Fundamentalist Islamic Iran. 3. Since the Kurdistanis and the Shiites Iranians at Iraq are allied to Fundamentalist Islamic Iran and Fundamentalist Islamic Iran is allied to the Chinese and Russian Federation, that is why the Chinese and Russian Federation got the Iraqis Northern (Kurdistanis Controlled) Oil Field Contracts and the Iraqis Southern (Shiite Iranians at Iraq Controlled) Oil Field Contracts. 4. If you even believe what the Arab League say (those requesting the No Fly Zones, UN Sanctions, Military Actions, assistance to the "Rebels" (Traitors), etc.) go do the research and you will find that they do NOT have a "Stellar" Reputation (demanded Sanctions, Arms Embargoes, Military Actions, etc. against Israel, then surprise attacking (doing a Pearl Harbor on) Israel). Not once; but, 1948 to 49, 1956, 1967, 1969 to 70, 1973, and 1982. And you are going to fall hook line and sinker for what the Arab League demands.
The corrupt Kuwaitis, increased their prices for transit of Iraqis Oil to the Oil Supertankers, making Iraqis Oil worthless. So the Iraqis got nothing under the Oil For Food Program. So Iraqis starved. And no the money was NOT used to buy weapons at that time due to the Arms Embargoes and Sanctions. After the Iraqis stopped sending Oil to Kuwait to be loaded on the Oil Supertankers the Kuwaitis started diagonal drilling from Kuwait into the Iraqis Oil Fields (An Act of War). Then the Iraqis Parliamentdemanded that the Iraqis President (Saddam Hussein) as their CINC (Commander In Chief) do something to end the Kuwait Corruption, so the Iraqis Military Invaded Kuwait My men, women and myself had to escape and evade to Saudi Arabia. And later conducting LRS-D and Pathfinder Operations leading the US Military Liberation of Kuwait. If you think that the US always wears the "White Hats" of the "Good Guys", you got some real growing up to do.
sandtrich,
I previously warned all of you about all of this. But, why the heck should I know anything since my US Military Officer involvement with the Middle East since the 1980s (Iran Iraq Wars, USSR 40th Army Occupation (Afghanistan)) till now (Afghanistan consecutive tours for years, previously Iraq consecutive tours for years, other assignments at Africa, Asia, South and Central Americas, Europe, etc.).
I have a really strong idea as to why Admiral Mullen is jumping all over this (his motives). As justification for the USN and USAF portion of the US Defense Budget, so that they do not get chopped again like the President Obama April 2009 Defense Budget Cuts (one entire USN Aircraft Carrier Group (lots of ships and a few submarines), and USAF). Same reason why the no Combat experienced USMC MEU conducted the assault of Marjah (you send people with no Combat experience to lower intensity lower risk Iraq first), as Publicity, to prevent a USMC Defense Cut (I stated why a USMC MEU is not suited for longterm sustained operations, and not trained nor equipped for Asymmetric Warfare.), almost "Sensitive" (Unclassified)Information. Anyone with no motives would have the position of Secretary of Defense Gates (extreme caution in getting involved, Gates has nothing to lose or gain and can tell the truth because he is leaving office soon (which can be interpreted as opposing the current Administration's Policies, instead of staying on (again) as requested (again).).
Some posters here do not want you to see other peoples opinions even if they are FACTS.
my comment:
STOP COLLAPSING POSTS AS A FORM OF CENSORSHIP.
Just like "Cyber Bullying" if you do not want to see it get off the Internet, do not post crap like naked pictures of yourself, things that can be used against yourself, your so called "Friends" will still say that sh!t behind your back by other means anyway. This "Cyber Bullying" is all on yourself as consequences of your own previous actions. Parents teach YOUR children personal Responsibility; as they are YOUR Responsibility (you had the fun making them, I darn sure did not have anything to do with that (that I know of)).
Dude, you have been drinking too much kool-aid! Take your pills and let your other personality (the reasonable half) take over.
Richie- Your heckling someone with considerable knowledge of world events. Instead of condemning David you should read his contributions on the vine, you might just learn something.
Just wonder what the Democrats / Liberals and drive by media would be saying if President Bush would have invaded another country without Congress approval. Come on Reid, Pelosi, Barney, Boxer..... Where are your comments now.
Seriously, what good Historically does Impeachment even accomplish.
President Clinton was Impeached. And to this day you still have people worshipping him. For:
F**king the Jewish Lobby literally, Monica Lewinski; or at the very least getting a blow job. (his sperm on her blue dress). And then saying "I did not have sex with that woman".
Receipt of Chinese Campaign Contributions, then giving China most Favor Trade Nation Status. As "Chinagate" (Congressional Hearings).
"Budget Surplus". Supposedly from Cutting the US Military to the Bone, with his Reduction In Forces (RIF) of the US Military (US Military becomes Non Mission Capable to conduct War, niches for expensive US Contractors). Closure of 14 US Military Installations (near Great Depression Era US Civilian Economies, at the nearby towns, cities, flight of people that became Unemployed to other States). Layoff of thousands of US Civilians in the US Military. Gutting of the US Intelligence Agencies, resulting in Intelligence Blackouts of entire Regions, especially at the Middle East, with the US having to rely on potentially hostile intelligence sources - 9/11 Congressional Commission.
THE REAL MEASURE OF A SURPLUS IS, Interest on the National Debt:
President Clinton $18.9 Billion
President Bush $16.6 Billion
Refusal of offered Saudi Arabian extradition of Osama Bin Laden after the 1993 First World Trade Center Bombing. Also as Commander In Chief, not giving requested authorization by US Special Warfare for termination of OBL; instead stating US No Assassination Policy.
1993 Gets US involved in UN Mission, Somalia (another "Civil War", Asymmetric Warfare). As CINC US Military authorizes US Military Operation, Operation Gothic Serpent, resulting in Blackhawk Down.
1998 State of the Union Address, demanding a Declaration of War With Iraq. Under this Declaration of War with Iraq, 1998 US Military Operation Desert Fox.
Elimination of those Laws (Glass Steagall Acts) that made Illegal the Causes of the 1907 Depression, 1929-1939 Great Depression and the current 60-100 Trillion USD "Global Economic Crisis". Those Causes made Legal by President Clinton being Swaps, Credit Default Swaps and Derivatives, aka Financial Weapons of Mass Destructionthat can (and did) destroy whole Nations and Economies. If the Glass Steagall Acts are not reinstated the next "Crisis" of $54.6 Trillion USDs (profits of a possible $643 Trillion USDs) will sink the US into a Depression worse that the Great Depression.
Organizing the Haiti Relief Funds, with donations of $5 Billion USDs, which the Haitians have never gotten. Motive interest on $5 Billion USDs and Administrative Fees (he needs payroll for his Clinton Foundation employees). These are donations (money sent to Clinton Foundation Haiti Disaster Relief Fund) not pledges.
Just to let you know I am doing the same thing for President Bush (43) and President Obama, researched Historically Documented chronological events (including my firsthand experiences and involvements).
Jakrabt_Oxford MS
You're right, that is a bummer but it's the point. Its no coincidence that both Democrats and Republicans are financed by the same big money. Did you notice that as soon as Obama was elected his liberal agenda disappeared? Gitmo, Afganistan, Iraq, even health care his greatest victory was written by the insurance industry no public option and some ridiculous mandate for everyone to buy insurance (unless you can score an exemption). Sounds like a wet dream for an insurance exec. Speaking of execs, the cabinet is full of Goldman Sachs snakes.Now we get a new war, it IS a war.So is Afghanistan, so was Vietnam. DO you think John McCain would have been more conservative? Nope with a few exceptions for social issues (abortion,gay rights, carbon dioxide, gun rights) designed to keep us fighting each other there is no difference.The longer we Republicans, Democrats, and Independents fight each other our country will suffer. The money calls the shots.We are basically watching a ping pong game every 4-8 years put on solely for our distraction. Don't take my word, search
"false left-right paradigm". Go ahead Flame on!
EDIT:Sorry DEMS I want to make it clear.. ALL sides in this 2 party system use this tactic. I just used Obama as an example because he's in now.
Probably just about the same thing you are saying now only with a slightly liberal twist.
David - I can't pour through all that you have written, but just to address the first palpably false statement I saw: the U.S. has not declared war on ANY nation since the onset of World War II. The 2002 Iraq War Resolution, or more formally, the "Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002", was not a formal declaration of war.
@david
Good post and good points. As I have said many times here before Clinton's balanced budget was false. He did it by cutting military spending to the bone and still had higher interest payments than Bush.
We could have avoided 9/11 if he took advantage of taking OBL into custody.
I do believe McCain would have brought us down the same path but his big mistake was announcing, at the last minute, that he wanted to tax SS on the elderly.
Don't people see Obama is following in Bush's footsteps without a skip. This should show you that the Generals are controlling what happens in the ME and it is to avoid budget cuts in their departments.
Now I think the biggest thing people don't realize is we don't want to take Qaddafi out of power just to get him to stop killing his own people. Keeping Qaddafi in power and under control is in our best interests.
Clearly this makes Obama a war criminal worthy of citizen's arrest; what, with a third illegal war. Impeach Obama for crimes against humanity! It's time to ratchet up support; where my pink ladies at, Holla if ya hear me, What! Come on my Democratic Congressional Brothas and Sistas, it's time to hold hearings against this war-mongering President. This cowboy attitude has to stop. What are we, the world police? This is why everyone hates us around the world. We just want their oil. This is a crusade brought on by evil Christians who want me to go to church on football day. He's just finishing his daddy's war; he should be clearing brush in Crawford... wait a minute... hold on... I'm getting confused. But seriously, I appreciate the Libtards (And you Ron Paul Freaks) here who are at least consistent in their condemnation of all things war. Although, I do think you live in a delusional self-concocted fog of free-spirited fairies and unicorns and you should probably wake from your hazy reverie and join us in the real world where their are bad people who need to be eradicated for the safety and security of so many others. Life is not always rainbows and lollipops and while I do not know if taking out the tyrant will result in a more peaceful and friendly Libya, I can't say this move on Obama's part is going to upset me. However, I have a feeling that most of you are not going to be consistant in your outrage; and that is because you're stupid. :)
So what has war ever accomplished?
Well, it conquered taxation without representation, tyranny, dictatorship, nazism, communism and now terrorism!
I support our President in this decision. He played it as I believed he would. Thoughtfully, carefully and in partnership with many strong allies. The problem with many posting here is quite plain. They are not accustomed to a thinking and deliberate President who uses patience as effective strategy in governance and policy. Yes, I would like to know more about these Libyan rebels, yet, I trust President Obama's judgement and knowledge of that. I also believe the world trusts him as well. Moammar cares about his life, he better get astride a fast camel and get the hell out of there. Staying there to conduct a world talkathon is gonna get him killed.
Obama is a typical liberal hypocrit. Obama was against the war in Iraq and one of Bush's harshest critics. When Bush attacked and eliminated an oil rich Arab dictator (Hussein) who murdered his own people in order to free the people of Iraq, then according to Obama it is the crime of the century. However, now its OK for Obama to attack and try to eliminate an oil rich Arab dictator (Gadhafi) who murders his own people because Obama says he is "proctecting the people" of Libya. Classic liberal hypocracy on display. Cannot help but LOL at this absurdity.
Obama has broken his promise on just about everything else too such as closing down Gitmo and shutting down military tribunal trials for terrorists. It's plain to see Obama cannot be trusted to do anything he says. He has no principle, no courage, no direction, no confidence, no moral compass, no competence, no leadership ability and most of all, no business being President. He is a weak, incompetent, party boy, and HE MUST GO. Thank God November 2012 is just arond the corner.
No, but the Democrats taught us well.
As anyone knows US Congress is the only means of a US Declaration of War as a Law. The 1973 War Powers Resolution put the restrictions on the President of the US and CINC, after President Johnson (LBJ).
In 1998, President Clinton demanded a Declaration of War with his 1998 State of the Union Address:
This was regardless of certain things that I mentioned about the Kurdistanis (armed allies of Iran during the Iran Iraq Wars), the Iranians (USSR Backed) and those other events that occurred at the "Middle East". (and sticking my arse way out there, where the Chemical Weapons came from, the Iraqis did not have the capability, as we were at Iraq (US Ally, free access anywhere, Diplomatic Immunity) on the US Military Training Teams from Germany (I was previously trained Nuclear Physics (Weapons), Chemical (Weapons), and Epidemiology (Biological Weapons).). Translation President Clinton's first use of the term Weapons of Mass Destruction, as well as using the examples of the use of Chemical Weapons against the Kurdistanis (NOT Iraqis), and the Iranians (during the Iran Iraq Wars) as justification for the US Congress to Declare War Against Iraq was not justified (False information). We know because we were there then (Iraq Iran Wars) and later (prior to the First Gulf War, Operation Desert Fox, prior to the Liberation (Invasion) of Iraq, etc.; and kept getting flip flopped between Iraq and Afghanistan for years).
In 1998 as demanded by President Clinton, US Congress passed Law, H.R.4655, the long title: "Overthrow of the Iraqis President and the Iraqis Government to Liberate the Iraqis People", the short title: Iraqis Liberation Act. This is the Declaration of War With Iraq. As everyone seems not to know (except President Clinton, US Congress, UN) by International Law, Stating, Funding, Organizing, etc. the Overthrow of a SovereignNation's Government is a Declaration of War. H.R. 4655, later is known as US Military Operation "Iraqis Freedom". Just because H.R.4655, is not Titled "Declaration of War", what do you think the intent was, play patty cake with the Iraqis. You can keep playing symantecs (legalese, word games), the International Laws are clear, H.R.4655, is a Declaration of War. And we do not care what you think, when a US Congressional Appropriation cites a specific Law as justification for the money for the US Military to conduct a full scale War, no time limits, nor US Military Force Restrictions (size), that IS a Declaration of War.
After the previous attempts to achieve H.R.4655, Overthrow of the Iraqis President and Iraqis Government, pre 9/11 2001 US Congress reauthorizes H.R.4655 and appropriates funds. The few Congressional Representatives that opposed H.R.4655, flat out stated that H.R.4655, is a Declaration of War. I was at D.C. at the time, reformed my Teams, and gave them the Warning Order we are going to War (again). And are sent instead of Iraq to Afghanistan to disrupt the Fundamentalist Taliban Government prior to the arrival of the Main US Military Forces, we are then sent to live with the Kurdistanis at Northern Iraq for years to gain their trust, organize, train, and arm them to fight the Iraqis Military.
In 2002 US Congress adds the 2002 Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution to H.R.4655 as all other means to Overthrow the Iraqis President and Iraqis Government Failed. H.R.4655 meets those conditions of the 1973 War Powers Resolution as a Declaration of War, by US Congress.
Prior to the US Military Liberation (Invasion) of Iraq. The Kurdistanis, advised by us (our Teams as combatants), attack the Iraqis Military near the Northern Iraqis Oil Fields. The Iraqis Military think the US Military Main Forces will come thru US Ally Turkey. The Iraqis Military redeploys North of Baghdad. The USAF uses Non Nuclear E-Bombs to kill all Iraqis Electronic, especially the Iraqis Military Communications. The Iraqis Military cannot coordinate a defense, and cannot redeploy the Main Iraqis Military Forces south to meet the Main US Military Forces from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. Like most Military Forces of the world the Iraqis lacked one of the "I's" of Real Teams, Initiative, as they are Command (Order) Driven only, and sat around waiting for orders that would never come. So the US Military Forces picked off the Iraqis Military piecemeal.
President Clinton and US Congress (both Parties) got one over you.
After the 1993 First World Trade Center Bombing, the Saudi Arabians had him (OBL, Osama Bin Laden) in custody. After President Clinton refused their offered extradition to the US, they released OBL. US Special Warfare Teams "shadowed" him and continually request termination authorization. At that time the object was not to capture (hearings, trials, imprisonment, etc.) OBL. After repeatedly requesting authorization, many US Special Warfare quit and joined the Foreign Security Contractors (as hired by the US Department of State, Diplomatic Immunity), as the President Clinton Cut to the Bone Reduction In Forces (RIF) of the US Military occurred the US Military Special Warfare was decimated. Like the US Intelligence Agencies (train, place intelligence assets), US Military Special Warfare takes decades to build (train, operational experience, etc.). Many of those RIF'ed went to the US Security Contractors. Maybe in another decade (actually over ten years) US Special Warfare and US Intelligence will finally be rebuilt to meet the current and future demands. An example of this is the 5th Special Forces Group (Middle East) has to have some of their rotations filled by other SF Groups (not trained for Middle East, especially languages), this is regardless of augmentations of USAF SOWs, USMC MARSOC, USN SEALs.
"Advocating going to war but yet don't understand why potholes takes longer to repair"
hahaha...laughable stupidity..."potholes" are a municipal and state problem...cry to your Mayor or Governor
Great news!
Not a single soldier on the ground.
Bomb all the Gadhafi a palaces and military complexes.
We had enough from the tyrant, a mad beast, barbarians like Gadhafis.
If Gadhafi wins, he will kill huge number of his people accusing them of being rebels or aiding rebels.
Don't trust a single word of what Gadhafi's men declare/shout.
We need to act in a similar manner with other bunch of tyrants and beasts like those of Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait and some more Islamic nations.
Let us breath some fresh air and free ourselves from the promoters of haters and killers.
Way to go. Once again the federal government sticks it's damn nose in a pile of sh*t it doesn't belong in. If the un wants sometghing done let the countries over there take care of it. No wonder those knuckle dragging sand lovers hate this country. They are always in their business.
Yes, let's bring all wars back home. Everyone will appreciate that. The only one we have here is the one with Mexico, and the idiots who think everyone should get stoned. Ya that is the ticket. Everyone get stoned so you won't feel the bullets hitting you, so much.
David, you're either a NSA PSY0P troll or you've wrapped that red, white and blue thong too tight around your neck. 'Defense' (sic) isn't the 'only thing keeping US out of a Depression', you joker.
'Defense'(sic) + NSA + CIA + DHS ... is WHAT'S CAUSING THE DEPRESSION!
($555,000 per Tomahawk x 110 + $1,500,000 a day for two destroyers and 3 subs + 24 hours x 12 fighters x $13,000 an hour) x 3.65 Pentagon overhead = $241,973,000 and that's not counting fuel.
$241,973,000 divided by $1418 per ounce of gold = 170,000 ounces of gold belonging to all of US just got flushed into private war profiteers offshore vaults today.
Just think how much they'll flush out of US tomorrow!
mba grad -Scotland is on the island of Great Britain, the largest of the British Isles. Continuing education.... FYI
Herman C,
I am 99.99% against the US involvement with this.
And FYI, as far as the Cruise Missiles. I have even seen them being manufactured as to why I critized the expensive process that they use to manufacturer them (big billet of aluminum, put on to a computerized lathe), instead of first casting them and then machining them. Do you have any idea how many US Civilians that Company employes (I know because I got to go on the tour of that company).
While I was with the Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces, we even deployed the Ground Launch Cruise Missiles (Nuclear) to England from Germany (Hahn USAF Base).
You can keep throwing costs of things, and not look at the whole picture (how many US Jobs that equates too).
NOPE. The elimination of the Glass Steagall Acts. The Glass Steagall Acts made those Causes of the 1907 Depression and 1929 -1939 Great Depression Illegal.
Those that did the research would know, http://www.isda.org/, click on left column, "Membership" http://www.isda.org/membership/mem_nav.html, click on "Current list of ISDA Members" http://www.isda.org/membership/isdamemberslist.pdf
READ ALL 9 PAGES. These are the people that by profit taking CAUSED the current 60-100 Trillion USD "Global Economic Crisis". All perfectly legal since the Glass Steagall Acts were eliminated. This could have been worse, the total amount of possible profits to take is $643 Trillion USDs.
What you are talking about is chump change.
And FYI, ever since President Regan, the US Dollar is NOT based on the Gold Standard. So I really do not know why you mention:
If I did work for the NSA, I would have access to their beyond commercially known supercomputers and could determine exactly who you are and where you are in the time that it took for you to read this sentence. Even without that I already know your ISP number. When I was young during the 1970s (before I got my Selective Service Card) I was a "Computer Enthusiast" (aka Hacker).
There are some real hypocrites here. So when does the war start in Sudan, N. Korea,Saudi Arabia, Bahrain??? Syria, Iraq (whoops), egypt. They have all killed their own people. When are we gonna do these? To all the deniers, how about if France and England had gotten involved when our government killed some innocent civilian protesters here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
Could anyone show me the proof that Gadaffi is killing his own civilians? I have tried to find it on my own with no luck. How do we know these were peaceful civilians? Anyone in a fighter jet in a no fly zone is no longer a civilian. The only bombs being dropped are not by Gaddafi but by this coalition of the shilling
I guess it takes about a million dead Iraqi civilians to get the US to care about civilians. Maybe because they weren't protesting when our military killed them?
David - That is your interpretation of Clintons words. Nowhere in the text does he reference an intent to "go to war".
The official, long title of H.R. 4655 was not "Overthrow of the Iraqis President and the Iraqis Government to Liberate the Iraqis People". The official title of the bill, as introduced, was
Moreover, this bill was not a declaration of war or anything approaching such action. It only declares the U.S. intent to support opposition groups, help establish war crime tribunals, and aid Iraq in establishing a Democracy, after Saddam has been removed.
Nowhere does it authorize the direct use of our armed forces.
I really do not know what your think Clinton & congress "got over" me, but you really need to look up the meaning of a Declaration of War. It is a very formal and explicit process. When FDR asked congress to declare war on Japan, in December of 1941, he said:
In response, Congress passed a declaration of war, which read as follows:
A day or two later, Germany and the U.S. formally declared war on each other, completing the process.
It has not happened since. Not once has the U.S. declared war since 1941: not in Korea, not in Vietnam, not in Grenada, not Panama, not in Iraq and not in Afghanistan.
But this is a side argument to the subject at hand. I just object to people playing fast and loose with the facts.
I support the United State's collective involvement with this intervention in Libya. If, at the cost of a few cruise missiles, we can prevent the slaughter of rebel forces, and the slaughter of their families and perhaps even speed Kadaffi into his too long delayed retirement, we, meaning the world, should do so.
Not once has the U.S. declared war since 1941: not in Korea, not in Vietnam, not in Grenada, not Panama, not in Iraq and not in Afghanistan.
And I doubt we will ever see a formerly declared war anywhere again. Harry Truman called the Korean War "a police action." That's about it these days. Someone gets out of line, call the US and we send a car over right away.
odin #1.2- Thank you for your post and link. It will be only a matter of time when Obama will be put on the war criminals list along with Bush. Both of them have circumvented Congressional authority by convincing the U.N. to take action. Let's face it, Democrats are the biggest war mongers this country has ever produced. WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam were all at the hands of Democrats leaving Republicans to clean up the mess but for one exception, Iraq.
But it was a Democrat that promised, and went back on his word to end U.S. military involvement in the Middle East. He is now making the situation considerably worse by dragging America into another un-winnable quagmire that we cannot afford. President Barack Obama is destroying this country with his lackluster and half assed leadership.
If the Lefties in this country would step back for a moment to realize their glorious Organizer in Chief is no better than Bush, maybe we could pull together as a country and end this madness. The company line the Lefties keep towing, is pulling this country into an abyss.
Virgie
better put JFK and LBJ on your "list"...because as we all know they are guilty of mudering 63,000 American soldiers and 5 million civilians including women and children...
Virgil - You have no idea what you are talking about. Your grasp of the historical facts you reference are worse than doubtful, and your understanding is worse yet.
Neither Bush, not Obama will every end up being tried for war crimes, and war crime tribunals are not held for violating U.S. law, as in having "circumvented Congressional authority by convincing the U.N. to take action.", and as to "leaving Republicans to clean up the mess but for one exception, Iraq":
So much for the historical accuracy of your statements. Now in terms of comprehension:
That is an outright lie. During his campaign, Obama said, repeatedly, that Iraq was a mistake and that he would try to end our involvement there as soon as possible. He also said that he would more aggressively pursue the war in Afghanistan. He never said he would end U.S. military involvement in the Middle East.
If you believe this, show me the quote.
Of course, you can't.
If you conservatives would stop making up your own "facts", you might be able to better comprehend what is going on around you.
Fictional
Account of
Conservative
Theorists
Over Taxed- Agreed. Eisenhower sent in advisers, but it was Kennedy that sent in Special Forces that got the ball rolling. Who's to say if Eisenhower would have escalated military activity? I think if Barry Goldwater won the election he would have pulled the U.S. out much sooner, as he did have very aggressive plans to bring the NVA to their knees, one of which was to destroy their ability to produce rice. Most of the ordnance dropped was on the wrong targets. If you can't bomb your enemy out of existence, bomb them into submission. I worked in Japan and Germany.
Some of you guys have been playing WAY too much HALO or whatever the modern equivalent is. (Sorry, kid's in college now-not up to date, not that I EVER DID APPROVE in the first place-I found out AFTER THE FACT! But that's another story...) You wouldn't mind real bombs getting dropped on you? Personally, I think I'd pass...As much as I hate all the shouting, I prefer it to bullets and bombs. You guys just stick to HALO (or whatever)-I promise it's a lot more fun. Ever REALLY talk to a combat vet? I'm a PT, and I've talked to lots of them-they've shared some deep stuff with me. Nothing pretty about it. Not like the movies either-no danger sitting there. Gut wrenching agony. Things in your mind you wish you could erase for the rest of your life. Fears, wondering what if...and that's if you're a good guy. NOT that there aren't things worth fighting for. But fighting for the heck of it? No way.
In answer to d's original question, I'd say: We'd fight for what was right.
dman-
Point #1- I never said anything about Bush and Obama being tried for war crimes any more than being tried for circumventing Congress. Bush is on a sh_t list and has been warned not to leave the country for being arrested. If Obama stays on his course he will probably end up on that list also. Does the fact that he is a Democrat and your fearless leader make him exempt?
Point #2 - I see we are in agreement about WWI and WWII, however it's a widely known fact that WWII was FDR's war by provoking the Japanese. So, two wars, two Democrats, two war mongers.
Point #3 - Korea as with Vietnam was Truman's gift. If he allowed McArthur to finish the job in Indochina there probably wouldn't have been a Korea, or a Vietnam. And we can agree that it took a Republican administration to end the conflict in Vietnam.
Point #4 - I wouldn't consider Granada a war as much as it was a means to depose a fascist regime, and if you remember, it was concluded in short time. And I wouldn't consider throwing a Rave party on Noriega's lawn an act of war, as it was a means to arrest a drug dealer that forgot who his master was, and if you will remember, it was concluded in short time. Neither of those two events resulted in the spending trillions of dollars, and costing thousands of lives.
Point # 5 - I will concede that Obama never said he would end U.S. military involvement in the Middle East, even though he did pull troops out of Iraq.
But thank you for pointing out the fact that Obama never had any intentions of ending military involvement the Middle East. His escalating war in Afghanistan, and his recent escalation in Libya will go down in the history books as another in a series of war mongering Democrats. This is the point I made in my post above. For all the pissing and moaning Lefties do about how bad Bush was, it's obvious that the Liberals undying devotion to their Organizer in Chief will keep the U.S. in the Middle East until Rapture, or maybe when he's replaced by someone who knows what they're doing, will finally allow the good folks in this country get back to the business of living in peace.
So, my theories as you put it, aren't theories but fact, with the exception of one that I pointed out. And I want to thank you again for reminding everyone on this thread, and the rest of the world that Obama never said he would end military involvement the Middle East. I'm sure with that line of reasoning we can all look toward a brighter future, at the base of a mushroom cloud.
I give up, what is this "war criminals list", which you glorify with the definite article (the)?
...some thing you have on your refrigerator?
On point two:
...you said,
I've bolded the part where you said the Democrats had left a mess for the Republicans to clean up to remind you of your words. Eisenhower came to office in January of 1953, by which time WWII was quite over and done with. Warren G. Harding, the worst modern president until George W. came on the scene, took office in 1923, 5 full years after the end of WWI.
...What were these republicans "cleaning up".
Fighting a necessary war does not make one a War Monger. Starting an unnecessary war does.
It is widely known that FDR intentionally slanted his foreign policy towards the allies during the early stages of the war. What is not generally known, or accepted is that this makes the war his fault. I believe that history has already shown that FDR and the U.S. made the right decision in siding with the allies. To have done otherwise would not just have been morally wrong, but contrary to the long term interests of our nation.
What the devil does Indochina, as in Laos, Vietnam and Cambodia, have to do with Korea. In 1950, when the Korean (not Indochinese) War erupted, the French were fighting a nationalist insurgency in [big surprise] French Indochina. At that time, Gen. MacArthur was overseeing the occupation of Japan. He was appointed commander of U.S. forces at the start of the conflict, in June of 1950, and served in that capacity until being removed by Truman in April of 1951 for publicly criticizing the President.
...so how, exactly was he prevented from preventing the Korean War.
As to your pocket assessment of our invasions of Grenada and of Panama, I think you'll find that they fit the definition of an act of war. As does our involvement in Somalia, which was begun by Republican George H.W. Bush, and "cleaned up" by Democrat Bill Clinton.
In your simplified world, merely to have been the leader at a time of war apparently makes one a War Monger, implying some evil intent or gross, systemic incompetence on the part of the Democrats. History does not support your beliefs. The U.S. emerged from the two world wars as the most powerful and prosperous nation on earth, and the Korean War marks the high water mark of communist aggression. Today the Soviet Union no longer exists. China is more capitalistic than we are. South Korea, our ally is prosperous and free. It's counterpart, north of the 38th parallel (and far from Indochina), is desperately poor and ruled by a megalomaniac.
Who would have thought so much good could come of Democratic War Mongering?
What I pointed out is that Obama is doing precisely what he said he would do, pull our troops out of Iraq as quickly as possible and commit sufficient forces in Afghanistan to achieve our goals.
For as long as cars and furnaces continue to run on gasoline and oil, the U.S. will continue to maintain a military presence in the Middle East. Obama never said otherwise. Anybody who tells you otherwise is either a fool or a liar.
oldcavscout, you just got off suspension and started right back into it.
You are suspended for a month for violating rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.
Last chance.
you have got to be kidding. Suspension over that comment, wtf? over.
How about this, pal: How about you folks have been fighting & killing each other over sand, camels, and religion for a lot longer than anyone can remember? How about WE keep our noses out of YOUR problems for a change and instead tend to our own?
We (CIA) know where Kadhafii is, so let the French/Britt's take him out with a couple of missiles and be done with it. We don't need to get involved in this. Let the "rag head's fight among them self's. We here in America have enough on our plates as it is. That country is not worth our trouble. Although I do smell OIL and politics here.
I'm all for sitting this one out.
Our President is starting to make comments that were similar to those made by his predecessor. If everyone will remember, we wound up paying for the liberation of a thankless population in Iraq who conspired against us openly and killed our soldiers and airmen with impunity.
I do not want this country involved in another war of attrition with Middle Eastern baffoons who think themselves annoited by God to slay the "Crusaders."
Everyone stop talking about Military intervention and start writing the President and Congress to warn them of a voter backlash if they make us pay for one more stupid war to protect the assets of the International Banking and Oil Cartels.
Enough is enough!
Me too. Let the savages duke it out among themselves.
How many of you were all for Bush invading Iraq?
I was never for Iraq and i'm not for this either. I also think it's time to get out of Afghanistan.
I'm rooting for the rebels in this, the key word being 'rooting'.... not 'joining', not 'intervening', not 'fighting with'..... simply rooting.
Where is the West? Sooo..... really saying 'we believe as Americans, so fight with us and for us'?
Besides the myriad number of reasons there couldn't be a worse time, economically and otherwise, for America to get involved in yet another military action in yet another part of the world.....
isn't that akin to saying those that believe as does Gadhafi should be backing him and intervening, 'where are they'?
You guys obviously aren't aware there are different sects in the Islam are you? Just like Christianity, Islam has different sects. Some do not get along together, Shiite and Sunni for example. Some are actually peace loving and quite reasonable people. The people of Libya are neither Shiite nor Sunni, they are Sufi's, they do not have a history of fighting over "camels, sand and religion" are you of stated. North Africa was, if you go back in history far enough one of the great scientific and cultural centers of the world. While Europe was still a festering backwater hellhole of disease, war and ignorance, thanks to Christianity, North Africa thrived. Some great cultural and scientific advances happened there which were later and slowly adopted by Western Europe. The people of Western Africa and Egypt are not fighting over religion, or camels and sand as one of you put it. They are fighting for something called DEMOCRACY. That is what they are after, plain and simple. They want to be more like, the great example of democracy and freedom, the Untied States of America. And here we sit in the great country history has ever known, pissing away what our founding fathers gave us, knocking other for wanting the same thing, generally being the ignorant nation of racist, xenophobic morons we have become. Good going Americans.
No one has said we need to go into Libya and turn this into another Iran, or Afghanistan, you guys are once again jumping to conclusions based on the last decade of weak leadership here in the United States. What they U.N. has been proposing is something more akin to the ‘90s when the U.N. got involved in the Czech Republic, which if you remember worked out in the end. But then again it’s more like us Americans now to jump off the deep end, over react to EVERYTHING (see current fears about radiation from Japan) and generally act the ignorant fools of planet Earth instead of the leaders we should be and have been in the past.
That said, I do agree with some comments that have been made about how money we put into Libya, obviously we should be investing it in education here at home. For proof of that you can read the comments this post will receive.
They are not savages, they are not Al-Qaida, they are "a people yearning to be free". If the most powerful nation on earth will not step up, and its citizens are more concerned with their 401K's than with the plight of the world's impoverished, then how disgusting are we as a nation?
Can't remember who said it but "America has a habit of running into war with her pants around her ankles." (paraphrase but the drift is clear)
If these were not oil countries or countries in the way of a major oil pipeline (Afghanistan) we would not give a damn.
Sad but true. Tunisia, Somilia, many other African Countries (with no oil) or no strategic importance are great examples of your statement.
Hey South, your bigotry is clear, and to say they kill themselves over camels is like saying Americans kill themselves over horses. Both true, both an obfuscation. of the truth. When the hatred that spews from those of your ilk ceases, we will have a better world.
Let us not worry about getting out by not going in!
to take Gahdafi out, they must also eliminate his seeds. They all have their own elite armies, at the financial and physical expense of the Libyan citizenry, and usually for sibling squabbles over stuff like "who's the owner of this coke cola plant" and "daddy loves me best". Take him and his psychotic seed off the face of the earth. Make sure that his administration follows his path to hell. There is no need for a war ... most of the Libyans want our "assistance". NATO merely needs to take out Tripoli and Gadhafi's hometown, where he gets his strength from. There is no need for an entended battle other than finally erasing Triploli from the world map. It has been a boil on this planet since the original pirating days when we were a colony up until 100 or so yrs ago. Somali is merely following Tripoli's long historic tradition - theiving mafiosa piracy. The Libyans can handle it from there once Gadhafi and his seed is wiped out of the history of the earth. Obviously they are determined to ... and merely needs the world's assistance to fight the weaponry provided by the world's nations to the psychotic using it against them.
If the west is going to do something it should have been done already. I am not for involvement but tough talk only makes you look stupid if your not ready to back it up swiftly and forcefully. The US is now committed through the precipitous actions of the president, so now we should act to back up our statements. Once the bullets and RPGs start flying the time for diplomacy and bluffs are over. We should never have made any public statements other than we are monitoring the situation and supported the resolution. By taking the lead Obama has set us up for being damned if we do and damned if we don't. Instead of being the shining light of freedom, he has put us in a position of being hated by another Muslim nation no matter what we now do. If you promise someone help, then don't help or show up late then all you do is create bad feelings, if we are going to be there then we should have been enforcing the no fly zone within hours of the resolution being passed.
We should not even get involved into this mess. There are enough countries in the area to send their young people to war. Like France. Which has this large population of people from 'this' area, should arm them and send them into combat to protect their neck-of-the-woods
'We don't have a dog in this fight!' They are always hating on our G.I. Joes, so let them figure out themselves how to get rid of Mr. Billy Badd Ass. Look. The U.S. has troops in every corner of this world playing the lord JESUS, which is not our job. India, China, Russia, and the rest can lose their people trying to correct the ills of man kind. I am liberal for the betterment of mankind, but damn, enough is enough. The world is being saved by us, and we are not being 'RECIROCATED' for it.
And yes. Russia, China, Japan, and South Korea, now that you all are wealthy, 'SEND US OUR MONEY OWED.' Then our national debt would in the PLUS.
Let's not forget that as we stumbled into Afghanistan and have stayed there the USGS was working with the AGS to determine the vast mineral deposits sitting under Taliban controlled lands.
Anyone interested in helping a country get to a quick TRILLION bucs? Still want the US to pull out wih a rapid drawdown? yeah. I didn't think so.
'Trillion dollar' mineral deposits have been discovered in Afghanistan according to US officials. These deposits include vast quantities of iron, copper, and lithium (important to battery technologies). The iron and copper discoveries are so huge, they have the potential of transforming the war-torn nation which, according to the United Nations, has one of the lowest living standards in the world. Preliminary reports suggest that lithium deposits are comparable with the world's largest in Bolivia.
http://www.thenewslink.com/afghanistan-lithium-trillion-dollar-mineral-deposits
And China and Japan are the likely country's to get the exploitation right's, not the USA.
Kel-Dog: So, having the sense to say ENOUGH ALREADY is a sign of hatred? I mean, you can't possibly see it as maybe being a healthy sign of self-preservation? REALLY??? And stating a well-known fact such as the Middle East has been at constant war with itself and/or its neighbors over things that the West hasn't considered to be war-worthy for centuries is BIGOTRY? And I guess your response infers that you think we should yet again suit up and ride off into another war that will simply replace one authoritarian state or dictator with another. When the war-mongering folks of YOUR ilk finally realize we've had enough, then maybe this country will have peace.
Decorator, first off that "vast wealth" was never a big secret, it was merely emphasized to the public after the drawdown order went out. Secondly, the reason this has never been exploited is because the deposits you speak of are almost entirely inaccessible, and would require an outrageous amount of capital and labor to mine, essentially negating any profit motive for committing to it. Add in the additional costs of extending an unwinnable war in a hostile and otherwise valueless territory and all the political ramifications that result.
Stick to business, bro; it's your degree major. And please, don't just read the news, but go deeper and try to understand it. This mineral folly has been addressed elsewhere.
That's a good question, but so difficult to answer. Sometimes what seems a local, foreign issue finds it's way to our doorstep. Better there than here, perhaps?
Whatever.
The only person that knows what she is doing is Hillary Clinton, and she has asked not to take a second term with Obama's administration (should he win a 2nd term). Soon we'll be Left only with Obama, and wolves at the door. Perhaps Obama will invite them in for a beer...that is when the President of Brasil (female), is finished with her public thrashing of him on CNN.
Obama = A wet mouse on the back of a camel. Does that guy have an ounce of chutzpah? Answer is, "No."
Interesting how some people say that Khadafi murdering innocent civilians is not THEIR business. It's always a humanitarian, not a price tag, issue when innocent people are being slaughtered.
The loonies on this thread who'd look the other way at what's happening to innocent civilians are the same breed whose ancestors looked the other way while Hitler was exterminating millions of innocent people.
What is happening to this country? Is money all you people think about? Keep up this price tagging of human life and when it's yours with the price tag that doesn't make the cut, don't complain.
There's a difference between socialism and humanitarianism. One is an ideology, the other is a natural instinct born with all but the most uncivilized among us to protect those who can't protect themselves.
I understand what you're trying to say ewent, and normally I'd agree with you. However, in this case, it's hard to even want to try to save them.
You see, if we go in there, and we "save these innocent lives" they are going to turn on US and start screaming DEATH TO AMERICA! Just because that's what they like to do. I am SICK of it. I am sick of watching our kids go over into that cesspool and try to straighten out their problems. I am sick and tired of our kids coming home in coffins!
Let the Europeans take the lead this time around. Let them see what it's like. We've done our share and then some. We have problems of our own.
BJs...If you believe they are going to "turn on us", how do you explain Iraq? Why go in there, bomb hell out of the place, pay billions to Iraq for war reparations for destroying their country and then dump all the costs onto taxpayers?
The problem with Republicans is that they consider the voice of the people non-essential to their agenda. Not when we pay THEIR salaries. They make the deficits and then dump the bills on us. Their military industrialist cronies clean up with billions in profit and then we don't even see those bills to verify if they are padded or not.
I detest war as much as you do. I never believed we should have gone into Iraq or Afghanistan. I believed that our highly skilled CIA could have done what was needed to capture bin Laden. The fact is that it wouldn't be the first time a dictator has been "deposed" by our CIA.
Now, when a bona fide reason to join our allies presents itself, we have Americans who want us to stand down. This isn't a war in Libya. It's a humanitarian effort. If we allows dictators to kill masses upon masses of people, what does that say about the value of human life on this planet? And, worse, what does it say to those power freaks who accept our ignorance of mass extinction?
Wake up and smell the coffee. If we allow Khadafi who for decades has kept his people imprisoned in their own country to continue to absorb autonomous power, how soon will your freedom in this country become seriously compromised when a bunch of right wing control freaks decide it's their "way or the highway"?
I fight when there's a good reason. Not to make a profit. To save a life.
Hungary 1955
Bay of Pigs 1961
Iraqi Shia & Kurds 1991
Rwanda 1994
Srbrenica 1995
All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
A French official said a French fighter jet had fired on a Libyan military vehicle
====================================
I thought the authorization was for a no fly zone. Now we're attacking miltary vehicles. Military vehicles reside on the ground, not in the air. Seems like the rebels, ooooppppppsssss, I mean "civilians" have us doing the dirty work for them.
Where to next? Yemen? Of course, not. Not an oil player.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ewent
Interesting how some people say that Khadafi murdering innocent civilians is not THEIR business. It's always a humanitarian, not a price tag, issue when innocent people are being slaughtered.
The loonies on this thread who'd look the other way at what's happening to innocent civilians are the same breed whose ancestors looked the other way while Hitler was exterminating millions of innocent people
ewent,
I love folks like you. Always gotta stick your nose in others business. But the funny thing is you're ok with it as long as it's an "easy" country to push around.Funny, we didn't/don't hear you complaining about Russia or China. Why? Are you a WalMart shopper who lives on the cheap garbage from China? Or could it be, they can push back, militarily and economically? Hypocracy knows no bounds.
I cant believe we are in yet another skirmish thats totally none of our business. More American lives put at risk and for what ?? And by the way, how hard would the U.S. fight back if there were entities within our borders threatening our government, especially using deadly force !! The U.S. would bring in the armed forces and with good reason. We have a nearly 10% unemployment rate, the worst in recent history, oh I forgot, war is big business !!!
Not that it's a surprise, but once again you show no compassion for human life. If they are not Americans, their lives don't matter to you. There could come a time when we need help form others. I hope they don't call us salvages and have no desire to help. Some of you are just selfish and sick idiots. May you reap what you sew. And that's all I have to say about that. Stupid is as stupid does.
Imawhitewolf...We aren't "pushing" anyone around. We are demanding that human rights be in place. You got a problem with that? Come off that high horse. I'm not impressed with authoritarian tripe or superiority. No one is "sticking their noses" anywhere.
We are bound by our allegiance to our allies Britain, France, Italy, Germany and Spain to abide by that allegiance and support their efforts. Duh....
I take issue with your vain attempts at connecting me to Walmart. No...I absolutely NEVER shopped at Walmart and NEVER will. Do you? Isn't it funny how people like you always know everyone else's business and then turn the focus on those they try to criminalize with their right wing stupidity?
I shop in my own little town. My business owners need me to do that. There's only one Walmart because we fought against Walmart setting up a second store. We lost 22 of our best small businesses because of the redneck Walmart BS.
Don't even get me started on what I think of exploitation of foreign cheap laborers. Next time, judge yourself first before you judge others. Hypocrisy has boundaries and you just crossed it.
Isn't there enough misery in the world already? If it's dead and maimed you want look at Japan.
Sheesh. It'd be nice if Libya's leader would throw in the towel for christ sake. Save a lot of lives, energy, resources, etc.
I feel shattered again for the idiotic antics of people in powerful positions. Damn - if for once everyone could play nice and do the right thing. (I know . . . I know . . . it'll never happen.)
What a great day,..It will go down in history in the libyan annuls of history, How the americans and their allies saved all libyans from the evils of GA-DOOFY...The libyans will now LOVE americans, as their own...What a great victory for the Obama administration...The libyans are probably already makeing american flags by the hundreds of thousands, so they'll have them ready to wave proudly in the streets of tripoli , dureing the countless parades cheering america the people of hope...Can't you just see it now, it almost wants to make me cry...The libyans are probably already engineering plans for united States monuments and museums, as we speak..They'll have statues of Obama everywhere.Who knows they might even replace allah with Obama?..This could be the turning point to all middle east countries, LOVEING america like no other's.What a grand day.Their going to repay the U.S. with FREE oil, for decades to come.It is TRULY a miracle in the makeing!
Highway to the Danger Zone~!
Rat Trap, this is Big Beaver, whats your 20?
"My JDAM is FLIR on the Rags FOB, Beaver!"
"Roger Rat, I've got your 6! Whoo haaaa!"
Hopefully no blue-on-blue between playmates!
Who wants to be the last pilot to die for Houston?
Hillary and President Sarkozy are the leading pro acters in this belated attempt to stop Gadhafi. Oh yes, Obama ran away--
President Reagan in 1986, along with Gadhafi's Terrorist Acts spoke many times about Gadhafi, and called him the biggest threat to the entire World. He named "G" - Mad Dog.
How many US Presidents have been aware of this killer while in Office since Reagan. Reagan dropped Missiles in Libya for retaliation.
Other past Presidents have ignored what was going on there. They let "Hitler" grow again, by ignoring this Country, especially since the Intelligence Agencies were aware of G being responsible for the Lockerbie Terrorist Act.
Al Qaida?---They are minimal, Gadhafi has got to be assassinated because he is the biggest threat to America and a Major Player in most recent Terrorist Attacks.
Some of the Civilians who are on G's side, are using themselves as Human Shields to protect this monster. How much did it cost for this kind of protection. Yes, Martyr's with soon to have Libyan millionaire families.
Gadhafi is a Coward.
Did Bush ever begin a war while he was out of the country vacationing? Obama certainly has his priorities backwards.
pjam09:
Good point. This will also be remembered during the re election for Obama in 2012. Why does he make these gaffes?
It seems that he blatantly does not want to be President for another term. It is that clear.
For the American People i.e., Japan, Massive Earthquake/Tsunami/Radiation floating to the US, Libya; it is an attitude, also, of not caring about his own or other countries.
He chooses the "glitz" instead of the job.
No he just sat on his petard reading books to poor black children 15 miles to where the terroroists trained that flew into the Twin towers!!!! I am sure you will remember his "wtf" expression as he was told we were being attacked. It sorta ruined his "no child left behind" PR campaign...! Oh yeah, and then he disappeared for a while leaving Darth Cheney in charge...great leader there, you betcha!
Hawaii & pjam- Consider this. Could Obama's bugging out be an attempt to groom Hilliary for the White House? Libya is Hilliary's pet project, she wanted it, now she's got it. Say she comes out ahead on this, does it mean she should be sitting in the Oval Office? Is Libya a path for her to gain street cred?
At a critical time in world history including the crisis in Japan, he chooses to go globe trotting with Imelda. Christ, how many times does that woman need to leave our country? Oh that's right, she didn't feel proud to be an American until hubby got a new job.
misslala- Please look up petard, and explain how it applies to your first sentence. I do understand your sentiment though. Even though I'm a Conservative, I have always thought of Bush as a SFB.
OMG !! Did bush start a war while out of the country ?? lol. Uhhhh he did more to this world then we will ever know. This world will still be reeling from the effects of his stolen presidency for many decades to come. And the remarks about the president taking time off, lol I dont remember a president that took more time off then lil bush. Every time you turned around he was in Crawford being boycotted by one orginization or another. Brings to my mind the one time this heart broken mother was camped outside his ranch just wanting to ask him why her son Casey had to die in Iraq and the big war hero , lil bush ,would`nt even talk to her.
ewent
Imawhitewolf...We aren't "pushing" anyone around. We are demanding that human rights be in place. You got a problem with that? Come off that high horse. I'm not impressed with authoritarian tripe or superiority. No one is "sticking their noses" anywhere.
We are bound by our allegiance to our allies Britain, France, Italy, Germany and Spain to abide by that allegiance and support their efforts. Duh....
================================
ewent (away),
As usual you miss the quist of the comment. You have had massive human rights violations for decades with Russia and China. What have we done? Protests? No. Sanctions? No. Military actions? No. Yet we go after countries like Iraq, Libya, Vietnam, and a great example: South Africa. Why? Because we are bigger than they are and we demand they bend to OUR rules. So yes we have "pushed" people around, but just the little people. We certainly didn't demand human rights be put in place when we installed the Shah of Iran or sent people to be tortured in Egypt.
We are bound by our allegiance to our allies Britain, France, Italy, Germany and Spain to abide by that allegiance and support their efforts. Duh....---------I'm glad you ended it with duh... This military action has nothing to do with NATO, it is a UN operation but, except for some EU nations and Canada, I don't see the rest of the UN rushing forward to be part of this.
As for WalMart, I simply asked you a question. I don't know everyone elses business and I don't care to know it. I just get fed up with the ignorance people like you show on here. They have done the same here when it comes to putting local business' out. I live in the Panhandle of N. Idaho. Withing a 45 minute drive there are 6 WalMarts. Excessive to say the least but let me give you my take on shopping locally. Last Nov I bought a Nikon D3100 DSLR at Amazon.com. $726 total. The cheapest I could find around here, with tax was $900. I was in a camera store in Dec and the guy made a snide comment on "it's nice that you shop local". I asked him if he could come close to the price I paid and he said "no". I look at him and said "it's nice that you are competitive" and walked out the store. Now if you can afford to shop local and pay the difference I commend you. I can't.
As for your statement: Don't even get me started on what I think of exploitation of foreign cheap laborers. Next time, judge yourself first before you judge others. Hypocrisy has boundaries and you just crossed it.-----I think the one who has crossed it is you. Of course you don't buy American grown fruits and veggies, do you? Hum. You do know that almost all of those crops are picked by "foreign, cheap laborers" right? Most of them stay in substand living conditions,no benefits and paid below minimum wage. Go take a long look in the mirror.
OK who let Qaddafi in this blog? Listen to all these whinny draft dodging hero's talking as if they feel sorry for Qaddafi! Why don't you guys talk with a family member who had someone killed in the Pan Am flight or the many killed in terrorist plots I am sure Qaddafi has sponsored through out the years.
I guess it would make you guys feel great to see people getting slaughtered that are simply fighting for what you have everyday: FREEDOM! I always thought that was what America stood for, anyone ever asked us to help a people fighting for the same, we always helped in some way shape or form. So please just be quiet and watch our brave men and woman take care of business, go back to sleep and cover your goofy heads.
@Nelson, so why stop with Libya? Why not go to Iran or north Korea? That's the reason why a lot of these countries hate us now, because we put our noses into other people's business. Must we spend millions upon millions helping the world out, when we can't even ensure that everyone here has healthcare? We are trying to cut billions from our deficit while at the same time, spending billions to help the world out. Social programs here are getting cut so that we can spends millions helping to fix up Iraq, Aghfanistan, and now Libya. IT'S ALL JUST PR, IF YOU ASK ME.
@thetruth
You like many other misinformed people speak of Bush at the Crawford Ranch. What do you think he sat around in lawn chairs sipping soda while he was there. He was able to work out of the Ranch and without all the hoopla of the White House. They have these new things called computers and people were able to come and work with him. Let's get past the fact that he did not just sit around the Ranch camping. So how was Obama's multi-million dollar family trip?
Second it was the Secret Service who would not permit him to see that woman whose son died. Why doesn't Obama do something about this group protesting at military funerals. The reason is because there are laws and protocols in place.
Obama is a typical liberal hypocrit. Obama was against the war in Iraq and one of Bush's harshest critics. When Bush attacked and eliminated an oil rich Arab dictator (Hussein) who murdered his own people in order to free the people of Iraq, then according to Obama it is the crime of the century. However, now its OK for Obama to attack and try to eliminate an oil rich Arab dictator (Gadhafi) who murders his own people because Obama says he is "proctecting the people" of Libya. Classic liberal hypocracy on display. Cannot help but LOL at this absurdity.
Obama has broken his promise on just about everything else too such as closing down Gitmo and shutting down military tribunal trials for terrorists. It's plain to see Obama cannot be trusted to do anything he says. He has no principle, no courage, no direction, no confidence, no moral compass, no competence, no leadership ability and most of all, no business being President. He is a weak, incompetent, party boy, and HE MUST GO. Thank God November 2012 is just arond the corner.
Do you even know what "no child left behind" is?
They were only following protocol.
Well its funny how we eliminate certain 'bad' men but let others be, like Korea or Iran. We dont want to fight the hard wars just the easy wars...At this point in time we cant afford to fight the hard war for pissing away our money on Iraq, where no WMD were ever found! And yes I was over there...But Iran and Korea state openly we are developing WMD.. hmm I think our govt are the hypocrite's here.. it was bush the crashed the economy in the first place. Clinton had the damn budget balance for crying out loud! Please look at your facts! And no I am not a Democrat or a REP. Both parties disgust me at this point and should all be fired!!
Let us get the promoters of haters and killers like Gadhafi, Saudi, UAE, Kuwait and some more rulers by massive bombings.
Not a single soldier's life is worth for these beasts and barbarians.
People in those countries and we need to breath some fresh air from these barbarians.
missala:
President Obama visits schools also, to read to the children. What a "Prop"; (not Propaganda) for re election. O mimicked Bush. Why? He's never had the tragic opportunity of thanK G-d, experience another War declared on US Soil, yet. How will he respond? .
Bush did a very, very good job when at the school. Do you want the kids to have PSTD, also. They would have been hysterical knowing that Bush had to get up immediately and rush out of there for this reason..
Bush was a "Kool Cat". He kept his emotions in tact that fateful day.
@SpcTorres, This operation is a coalition of countries including Arab countries coming to the aid of a people trying to oust a thug dictator that is involved in slaughtering his own people.
Look I was an E-5 in the 101st in the first gulf war back in the early nineties so I know what it's like, I am not just doing the talk, I also did the walk.
How would you feel if a week or two from now we turned on the news and saw images of hundreds if not thousands of men woman and children slaughteredall over Libya just because they wanted to live in a free society? I know someone is gonna say, how would I feel if hundred were killed by coalition forces? Well truth be told, not good however at the end of the day if Libya ends up becoming a democracy and the people prosper I am sure they would probably be the first to say it was all worth it.
The sight of something like that in my mind would haunt me forever, yes sure whats next Bahrain, Yemen wherever, sure your not gonna go everywhere but this place the international community was willing to take the leap and we did it right, we had no choice but to help, now that said, I don't agree with sending in American troops, I do think at one point troops will have to go into Libya if Qaddafi does not leave, but that should not be American troops we have contributed much blood already for the freedom of others.
Iran; more should have been done in Iran back in 09 to let the people of Iran know we were behind them in there quest for freedom, not enough was said, no leadership if you ask me from us, don't misunderstand, no military intervention but stronger words of support might have gone a long way.
Health care in the US, is a mess, your right we spend money all over the world and now we have States cutting jobs and programs left and right, well for starters, States have been broke for a long time now due to many reasons and just kicking the can if you will from one politician to another and the debt just keeps climbing, something is finally being done about it and no one likes it, we are gonna have to get used to that for a while until budgets get under control. Afghanistan is a bust, 2 billion a week is a joke and rebuilding schools in a place where they probably will be torn down the day we are not there is a huge mistake and waste of money, we should be spending that money here like yesterday.
Although I agree with this move on Libya I don't agree with long term commitments in these endeavours, the US has to negotiate much better with coalition countries in the beginning, stand up and take the lead on what the objective is 3 to 6 month commitment tops, and out we go, how long did it take again when Bush Sr decided we were going to Panama to get Noriega, a week or two? Cant remember , yes Libya is a different animal however my point is much can be done in a few months.
Here we go again....
An excerpt from
"War Is the Health of the State"
By Randolf Bourne
....With the shock of war, however, the State comes into its own again. The Government, with no mandate from the people, without consultation of the people, conducts all the negotiations, the backing and filling, the menaces and explanations, which slowly bring it into collision with some other Government, and gently and irresistibly slides the country into war. For the benefit of proud and haughty citizens, it is fortified with a list of the intolerable insults which have been hurled toward us by the other nations; for the benefit of the liberal and beneficent, it has a convincing set of moral purposes which our going to war will achieve; for the ambitious and aggressive classes, it can gently whisper of a bigger role in the destiny of the world. The result is that, even in those countries where the business of declaring war is theoretically in the hands of representatives of the people, no legislature has ever been known to decline the request of an Executive, which has conducted all foreign affairs in utter privacy and irresponsibility, that it order the nation into battle. Good democrats are wont to feel the crucial difference between a State in which the popular Parliament or Congress declares war, and the State in which an absolute monarch or ruling class declares war. But, put to the stern pragmatic test, the difference is not striking. In the freest of republics as well as in the most tyrannical of empires, all foreign policy, the diplomatic negotiations which produce or forestall war, are equally the private property of the Executive part of the Government, and are equally exposed to no check whatever from popular bodies, or the people voting as a mass themselves....
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/hist_texts/warhealthstate1918.html
...and again....
Major General Smedley Butler (USMC) fought in WWI, Haiti, Nicaruaga, Mexico and Cuba in the early part of the 1900's. He recieved the Congressional Medal of Honour twice as well as many other decorations. Here is a speech he gave to the American Legion convention in 1933:
Smedley Butler on Interventionism
War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses. I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag. I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket. There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism. It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service. I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested. During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents. ...
Hawaii2 & RN Philly
It's a total contradiction by Republicans. You say that President Obama shouldn't have gone through with a planned trip to promote trade in South America during a "war". It's not a war, It's assisting in a humanitarian crisis. You take shots at the First Lady for accompanying him on the trip, yet all dignitaries take their spouses with them.
You say--let the military commanders take control, yet you demean the President for being able to chew gum and walk at the same time. He gave a televised speech while on foreign soil to explain that military actions had begun while trying to secure a "real" trade policy to feed the addiction to fossil fuels of Americans.
You engage in rancor over the size of the First Lady's ass. You say that Bush was a "cool cookie" when he froze like a deer in the headlights during the 9-11attacks, His first action was to get the Bin Laden family out of the US when no other non-military aircraft was allowed in US airspace. How many of the 9-11 hijackers were Saudis?
We wrongfully engaged in a war in Iraq, killing 66,000 innocents and 4400 of Americans youth. We enter Afghanistan and kill goat herders for the acts of Saudis. I continue to disagree with the action in Afghanistan by the US--regardless of party.
You scream--"stay out of it" and at the same time, "kill Ghadafi". What's the official typical BS response by the Republican Party today? There's not a single conservative thing done by the Republican Party. They wish to cut domestic spending while doing nothing about the bloated defense budget. The CIA doesn't disclose their expenditures.
Again--add the annual defense budget + interest on previous wars + the debt on previous wars + Veteran's benefits, (also part of the cost of wars) + rebuilding what our military blows to hell = $.51 of every tax dollar collected. We spend as much as the balance of the world combined on "defense".
60 years of feeding the military industrial complex is enough. Cost plus contracts? Gates said his own department, the DOD--overfunded.
Lies and hypocrisy!
Kel-Dog,
You and everyone else that wants US Military Actions at Libya NEED to read post#1.117. Just to let you know what you are getting us (US Military) into. And add to that post. I told all of you how inaccurate the cruise missiles are 110 cruise missiles to eliminate 30 anti aircraft sites.....maybe eliminated. Cruise missiles are NOT precision guided weapons. And yes, it is very possible that a misfired or malfunctioned cruise missile could kill a bunch of children.
Oh, REALLY. How about "MO" (Mogadishu) Somalia. But I guess you were not there for Operation Gothic Serpent and did not have to do the run for your life "Mogadishu Mile".
Or go to Darfur aka Sudan and see hundreds of "Peaceful Moderate" African Islamic Believers massacred by the Arabic Omani Muslims every day. And then being told to butt out because it is an African matter, by the UN and UA (African Union). To date the numbers massacred (chopped to death) by the Arabic Omani Muslims is in the millions. Why because the Peaceful Moderate African Islamic Believers refuse to join the Calls to War Against the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers as required by the current Islamic Laws and Holy Koran (Quran) under Penalty of Death. So being Peaceful Moderate Islamic Believers they choose death and do not even fight back as they are being chopped to Death by the Arabic Oman Muslims that want them to help attack the Christians to the South Sudan (Darfur).
You keep mentioning different "sects" of Islam, and fail to mention the current Islamic Laws and the Holy Koran (Quran)(109 Suras of 114 Suras) Calls to All Islamic Believers to War Against the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers (everyone else) for those Death Penalty Crimes Against Allah and His Prophet. That even the Shiites, Sunni, Persians (Iranians), Arabs, Kurdistanis, etc. all believe in as required by the current Islamic Laws.
It is all right for this tyrant to kill peaceful protesters with fighter planes and tanks.
He has hired huge numbers of mercenaries.
When France, the US and others bomb his fighter planes and tanks, then we become crusaders.
Muslims like Gadhafi have declared huge numbers of us as infidels. Here even Shias are included.
So it is he and his men who need to eliminated for the benefit of mankind. We are not in 11 century for the words like "crusades."
We are the supporters of the poor deprived and oppressed citizens of Muslim nations in their liberation struggles.
"It's always a humanitarian, not a price tag, issue when innocent people are being slaughtered."
was that your opinion when Bush sent in the military to take out Saddam?...I think not
"A memo released by the tribunal said the Anfal campaign included "savage military attacks on civilians," including "the use of mustard gas and nerve agents ... to kill and maim rural villagers and to drive them out of their homes."
"Stand at the mass grave near Kirkuk, where huge mechanised trucks churn the earth in clouds of dust. Look at the skeletons now tenderly reburied in simple wooden coffins. Talk to Nasir al-Hussein, who was only 12 at the time of the 1991 mass arrests. He, his mother, uncle and cousins were piled on buses. They turned off on to a farm road and the executions started. People were thrown into a pit, machine gunned and then buried with a bulldozer. Nasir crawled out of the mass grave, leaving his dead relatives behind."
-- The Times (London), June 18, 2003
"When they came closer, I could see in the bus men, women and children with blindfolds over their eyes. I was very afraid and hid in a hole. It was mostly men. There were about eight children and ten women. They (Ba'ath Party forces) took them off the bus and led them over to the hole in groups. They sat or knelt and then they began to shoot them from very close, many shots. Some were just pushed in and then covered up with earth. There was no escape, it was done very quickly.
"I could not tell this secret because I knew it was dangerous knowledge that I should not hold, dangerous knowledge. But if the British Army want me to show them I will dig up the bodies myself, because I know they are there. I can never forget."
-- Satar Al Khalid, a Bedouin, recalls an incident he saw near Ramallah, Iraq, in 1998, Daily Mail (London), April 14, 2003
Former United Nations worker Vanessa Lough said children as young as four have been taken from their parents during the night over the past fortnight and murdered after extremists targeted families thought to have been helping the Coalition forces.
"'Some children were hanged as their helpless parents were forced to watch,' said Ms Lough, 37. She heard of the atrocities during a water drop on the outskirts of Basra, Iraq's second largest city and a Ba'ath party stronghold. 'In one street alone, they said three children could at one point be seen hanging from the lampposts and around the corner another child lay burned on the road. Parents and children who resisted were badly beaten.' Ms Lough said that, at first, the three women, all middle-aged, were reluctant to talk about what they had seen for fear of persecution.
"'They were genuinely afraid for their lives,' she added. 'Through what I can gather, they knew of at least 11 deaths but said there were many more elsewhere in the city.'
"'One of the ladies said Ba'ath party leaders and several henchmen had ordered and carried out the killings after their headquarters were bombed last week. It was their way of getting back. One of the men told a father his son was being killed because the father had been seen laughing with several men from the British Army that day. They told him he had "betrayed" Saddam in an act of treason. He received a broken leg and a severe beating. The men made the father watch as they set his son alight with petrol.'"
-- The Mail on Sunday (London), April 6, 2003
it goes on and on and on...google search "time magazine saddams sons"...and that is from the uber left Time Mag fishwrap , so it must be true
sandritch....sonny boy
"You scream--"stay out of it" and at the same time, "kill Ghadafi". What's the official typical BS response by the Republican Party today? There's not a single conservative thing done by the Republican Party. They wish to cut domestic spending while doing nothing about the bloated defense budget. The CIA doesn't disclose their expenditures"
your illustrious libbie Jethros had control of Congress since 2006...and had a "super majority" , did they vote to cut defense spending?...in fact, did they cut ANY spending?...it would have been very easy to ramrod that through like they did the heathcare scam and ponzi scheme...your libbie soundbites are pretty played and tired...but it is your right to spew them
OT---Bubba---Libbies? You folks don't like to be called derisive names so I won't stoop to your level. The House is controlled by the right and that is where the budget comes from, (basic civics). In as much as both parties are in the Defense Contractors pockets--they aren't going to touch @!$%# to do with the Defense Budget.
You will see the movement in this country. It never comes from the right--it's just talk. It will come from the left--as it always does. How does the name--"The United Socialists States of American suit you?" Catchy--isn't it?
I've come to that conclusion that precisely 1/30 people who use the word Socialism know what it means, 1/40 for Communism, and 1/1000 for Fascism.
post 2.60? No idea what Socialism is.
Let me assist you. We have been a mixed economy for 6+ decades.
"Socialism is an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources. A socialist society is organized on the basis of relatively equal power-relations, self-management, dispersed decision-making (adhocracy) and a reduction or elimination of hierarchical and bureaucratic forms of administration and governance; the extent of which varies in different types of socialism. This ranges from the establishment of cooperative management structures to the abolition of all hierarchical structures in favor of free association."
Cut and paste - very cute. Now please explain how that applies to anything in regards to the country as it stands. Where exactly is the plan for collective ownership, when you've already admitted that both parties are theoretically under the control of defense contractors, a private industry? Any number of private industries, for that matter. While there are a couple of programs that might be considered socialized, we are on course to the OPPOSITE of socialism.
Wherever you plucked that definition from, I like it, though. That's a fairly proper and unbiased source, whatever it was.
Sandtrich: Wow, you can Google and cut and paste a stock definition.
Are you advocating Socialism from your Liberal standpoint? In reading your 2.60 post, to me it is unclear. Please clarify.
dead grimley2.61....perhaps all your conclusions are without merit.
You're right, it's probably lower... I was illustrating a point.
dEd--there was a bit of satire in what I was writing, but I do believe that our Imperialistic endeavors have brought to us the same weight that crushed the USSR. When our "leaders" slice away at domestic programs and leave full existing funding for the military industrial complex--it sickens me. The fact that we spend as much as the balance of the world does on defense/offense sickens me as well.
How could socialism fail us any more that our form of capitalism does? The desires to privatize in this country come from the right--the extreme right in most cases. Education is an example. I want your opinion and I bet you have a valid one, (dEd). The move from the right has designs on eliminating collective bargaining, privatizing Social Security, the CIA hires "independent contractors" to do the work of the military. I am more opposed to privatizing with corporations running the US than I am collective ownership.
Before the rancor starts, why does a teacher, that molds the minds of our youth, make the equivalent of a file clerk's salary? We are destroying all that are good in this country. My eldest son is a USN officer with a Master's in Nuclear Managment--salary with bonuses--$125k/yr. My eldest daughter has her Master's in Education--$35K/yr.
SusanB--I was raising the ire of a Tea Party member--mostly recreational. I am well left of center though.
(basic civics)...hahaha...your libbie Jethros were supposed to have the budget done last October...they failed to do it...basic civics...when will the libbie nation learn to get the facts straight before they rant at others?...well, never apparently
given the numbers that libbies spew about education and how far America is behind , it should be obvious that the "masters" of education aren't getting the job done...or do we need to throw hundreds of billions more at it?...just wondering
oh...and don't worry about addressing the fact that the libnuts were in charge and didn't do squat...they have only been in control of Congress for most of the last 70 years.
Narcissist---a person that post on a blog and promptly recommends their ridiculous comment. Adios Comrade.
I get that you're being sarcastic and satirical, and often do so myself, but I suppose I'm failing to see what your actual intent is here, which I think is what's causing the miscommunication...
It comes across in one breath that you're opposed to socialism, and in another that you're in favor.
The USSR, if we're comparing anything to that, was never socialist, so it's a bad, bad comparison. It was a dictatorship, far closer to fascist ideals than those of the communists. The ruling class in Russia was very much a ruling class, there was no collective of power. There wasn't really a shared ownership of anything. The members of the party lived fairly luxurious lives, whereas the common people, which socialism and communism are supposed to help, lived in squalor.
So when you make that comparison, I assume you're calling socialism, as it's often misunderstood to be, a bad thing.
Which it likely is, socialism and communism go against human, or rather, the instincts of all living things. It's inherent within nature for living things to want to have more, to be the alpha being, to be that which has the best access to food and the most available manner of reproduction. In human beings, that often equates to whomever has the most money and power.
So capitalism follows that instinct most closely, theoretically giving the most people a fair shot at obtaining however much power they should need or hope to get.
The problem comes along when we get people who aren't content to be ridiculously rich and powerful. When there's no limit, they resort to outright megalomania. And while capitalism holds the flaws that it doesn't necessarily cap the ability to gain wealth, and when combined with a republic which allows free speech in the form of campaign contributions, massive corruption, it's made all the much worse when supply-side economics are applied to those who already have more than enough capital to make their various business ventures happen, and crush any and all new competition which may arise.
So if, at this point, you want to provide some socialist elements or programs to attempt to give the common man a chance, and to stave off a decline into what actually turns out to be actual fascist economics, (a vertical integration of government and business - the government sets the business agenda and demands certain results, business owners retain their own profits when they meet the government's criteria, and hold political sway with their close ties to the central authority) as may eventually happen if the supply-side theory isn't stopped - that might actually be a good thing, as long as its temporary and limited.
So I think ultimately, we're actually on the same page here, I think you've just confused me a bit with the way that you were using the term Socialism earlier.
I have to say--I'm 60 years old and I have indeed learned something today. In the sense that I enjoy the positives of socialized programs, yet the damage at the same time. While I believe in a single payer system of medicine, I oppose absolute power. As a young man I read Marx and knew that the utopia of communism was unattainable. Many people that have closed minds never even dare to explore by reading. I look at being recognized for achievement as a human need and to we financially reward as part of that. At the same time, I see a direct conflict in the ceilings that are placed by learned behavior towards gender, race, stereotypes, etc.. A simple and recent statistic is male medical doctors with the same qualifications earn $26K more a year that their female counterparts with the same credentials. That seems like misogyny.
Another sticking point for me is our Constitution. How could a man call himself a Liberal, as did Jefferson, and be comfortable with the ownership of other human beings or deprive a woman of the right to vote and own property? I can't buy the theory that he and others were renaissance men with that mind set. A direct conflict to that--I demand most of the freedoms described in that imperfect document. Aleksandr Solzhenitsy longed for freedoms of the West, yet he was appalled at the excesses in our country. While choosing a life of solitude and minimalism in Vermont he never cared for the trappings of capitalism yet despised the pseudo socialism that he left behind. I guess it's what Maslow described as self-actualization and peak experiences that makes the most sense to me. What brings those levels to one person would not be true to another person. Dropping out of a profit structured environment and measuring achievement by that means--means little to me compared to turning out a great crop of organic fruit. I earn a fraction of what I did in my former life--I feel more fulfilled.
I will die a work in process. I appreciate what people as yourself bring to the table--too few in numbers. Thanks
That seems to be the problem - Wealth is used to measure happiness, and the longer we adhere to that ideology, a pursuit of wealth becomes mandatory for survival, first and foremost, with a pursuit of happiness being a priority to follow in tow.
The U.S. Government arms sales to the rebels, the supporters cheering the fall of the World Trade Towers. Sounds so much like Mexico. When do we start bombing?
I can't believe the world wants us to go in there and do the fighting and the news says it's going to cost the American tax payer. I getting sick of what we are doing. Maybe if everyone quits paying taxes they may start to do things different.
I have supported and continue to support both wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I find myself in total agreement with you. We have nothing to gain from stabilizing Lybia, and no reason to care about any of the people there. As I recall, they danced in the streets when our twin towers came down, so I could care less if they get slaughtered by a government they have allowed to stay in power for forty years. We simply do not need to be there.
Yo, Yo---Where was this rhetoric when we have been fighting wars for 60 years? We are broke, but we control the most precious commodity in the world--the food supply. We have the most arable land in the world plus a diverse climate to grow nearly everything--far more precious than shinny metals from the ground.
You complain about taxes when they are the lowest in 60 years and act as if the financial crisis just started. We still owe money from every war since WWII. This is the first justifiable military action since WWII. France and England have taken the lead and we are just providing some fire power--no troops on the ground.
I have a feeling that withholding taxes won't work out so well for you, but I do agree that our government needs to stop funding a bloated military and wasting money on useless projects.
Well, we need oil to grow crops in America. Oil to fertilize it, process and transport. Guess who has alot of it?
Actually -had enough- we managed to grow crops for a couple hundred years without oil, we managed to process it, and transport it. But it does make it a little easier. Lets say corn and wheat goes to 100 dollars a bushel and lets see what they can grow in the sand
had enough----- the USA has 19,800,000,000bbl of recoverable oil plus the Gulf of Mexico fields that Obuma says we can't drill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MORE FAUX NEWS BULLSH!T!!
REad the outrage from the libby's at Huffington Post over the administration approving, you guessed it, new drilling in the gulf.
Please do just the tiniest bit of research before you post instead of mouth piece for Fox News and the others (both right AND left) who's only interest is in controlling you.
In other words be an AMERICAN and think for yourself.
Dave
The Huffington post is every bit as biased as the Fox news network. You have to take what both of them say with a grain of salt.
From the tone and words of my post you may have noticed that I have no faith in either sides (right and left) crappy propaganda websites.
I used Huffington Post to make a point to datadon. I have issues with people who don't even try to fact check before they post. Ignorance is NOT bliss.
France has entered Libyan air space first.
NarkAngel---Huffington Post is #1 with 22M unique users per month. They must be doing something right.
Fox News also gets much higher ratings than the competition, so they too are doing something right.
That's because Fox allows right-wing viewers to concentrate their news intake. The reason the other news agencies have lower ratings is because the rest of America spreads their viewer's out over the real news networks.
Sure about that? Need heavy machinery to tilt the lands, spray with fertilizers and pesticides (both made from oil), pump water, process and transport the crops. All that process involved oil.
I wish the World would make up their minds!
They want us to help save the civilians and then call us aggressors!
Dave
turn off The Daily Show ...it is not a "news" outlet...oh , and neither is Bill Maher
@had-enough
We do not need oil to grow crops, or at least didn't way back when. Sure using all of those things increases crop growth, safety, and produces more product per crop then doing it by hand.
The Native American's were harvesting crops long before anyone from Europe set foot in this nation. You think they had a bunch of heavy machinery and used oil? Don't think so.
@Yo
If you are tired of going into war then replace Congress, they are the ones that Okay-ed Obama to send in our support for the No-fly zone.
Also good luck on the taxes, I think you might find prison to be a bit rough after the IRS catches you though.
@Article
I, myself do not think we should be in there currently as well. But for other reasons then "there is no profit for us" or "Libya celebrated 911" or anything else bigoted like that.
Right now we are still in Afghanistan and Iraq, we also have the stupid democrats and idiotic republicans in the house that continue to refuse to play with each other in the face of other world catastrophes and issues in our own country that need their attention NOW. We also have Tea Party governors trying to do everything in their power to weaken peoples rights or deal political blows to the feared enemy (read as Democrats) like some ****ing four year old while our real enemies (Bin Laden, Al-qaeda, the Taliban) are laughing their asses off at us.
We have a lot of aid going to Japan, which is exactly where it is needed right now, and our military is stretched quit a bit.
While I know we have to go there I do not agree with it but as long as we champion ourselves as the standard for the free world we have no choice but to put up a stand for those that want freedom and are being massacred by douche bags like Gaddafi. It is the morally correct, and just, thing to do.
Also the ones saying that there is no profit or kick back for us going into Libya. They are not bigots, they are just pathetic because they think Freedom is not a precious commodity in this world, but the second someone says that they will take their freedoms away they throw a stink, so I guess that makes them hypocrites as well.
@Over Taxed
You are correct, most of MSNBC's news shows are like Hannity, Rush, and Beck. People that comment on what is happening in the news. But they also talk with people that are actually reporting form those places, so its a bit more factual kind of news talk program then their Fox counter parts, and a lot less mentally damaging then watching Beck.
Face facts, from the day JFK tried to make cuts to stop the wars, the military industrialists went berserk. Big Oil went berserk. Big Intelligence went berserk. Who do you think makes all the money from endless wars?
I'm not in favor of going into ANY war. Iraq wasn't a war fought for the people of that country. It was to pump huge profits into US military industrialists. Cut backs on defense never happen. Obama tried and Republicans with their big military industrialist cronies bashed it apart...as usual.
No...we don't have the money we need to help the people of Japan or the people in Libya. We did have the money thanks to Clintonomics. Thanks to 8 years of wild Republican spending for their biggest campaign donors like XE, Halliburton and Enron, now the well is dry.
Our well, that is. Not the well that has more cash flowing form it than Niagara Falls. It's time for the 1% to step up to the plate. Stop looking down that empty and nearly dried out well for the cash thats overflowing in your own.
An economy controlled by plutocrats isn't sustainable. History proves that.
As for the oil issue, the US and Canada have the most abundant supplies of natural gas - a hydrocarbon that can and is being used to fuel trucks and power plants. I don't oppose drilling for oil or exploiting our resources, providing its done in a responsible way. I'm not sure that some of the current techniques are really that safe - see the BP disaster and contamination of the water table by *fracking*.
ysidero...You know why the rah rah Drill Baby Drill crowd has to put their plug in to insure that the oil rigs continue to flow the black slime as well as I do. Without oil or even a tiny reduction in it, certain oil profitting states have NO industry. Ergo, no jobs. Ergo, no fleets of gas guzzlers that cost $200 a tank to fill with gasoline. Ergo, no McMansions they really can't afford but it pumps ego to show of with. I know I feel so sorry for the Big Oil boys.
After all, what other industry in the US can claim a profit in a single fiscal quarter equaled to the highest profit in a decade ...in the worst recession since the Great Depression?
Anyone who falls for those Good Ole Boys of Big Oil with their excuses for why gasoline is at jacked prices at present is a fool. Prediction...Next fiscal quarter? Another history making profit.
Why? All those red state good ole boys in the political network making sure Big Oil remains as free to do as it pleases to keep the profits flowing..some of which pay for good ole boys campaigns. Nothing like keeping it all in the families of good ole boys right?
Andrew_
Fox News also gets much higher ratings than the competition, so they too are doing something right.
+++++Yes they are right, extremely far right. Unfortunately most of their information positions are wrong.
Well, do a little checking on the uses of petroluem. 19% of a barrel is used for fuel. Are you ready to give up everything made with the other 89%, including many medicines? If you take petroleum away from this nation, it will be like a heroin addict going thru withdrawl...Solar this, wind that, try paving a road with sunshine dude! I would love, for just 1 time, to see all the people against petroleum walk, skip, ride a bike, etc...to get to their "Green Rallies". And you want to talk about the "Good Ole Boy" states, it's our dedication to the job that keeps the over-populated "Blue" states supplied with natural gas and petroleum. Try turning off your electricity (powered by fossil fuels) and gas heating (supplied by natural gas) next winter hypocrite!
I agree Yo. We need a way to reach those in high office. And apparently the only way to do that is to deny them their billions. That way my friends is to hold back your vote !!! What if we collectively voted against each incumbent in each election !!I know that sounds terribly niave and simplistic, and I can already hear those that would argue that we need experienced people in government. But what if the experienced people are corrupt ?? What good would their experience do for the ordinary people ?? We see that now.... no good at all !!! And put a salary cap in place, &50,000 and thats it, then maybe only those that really want to serve will run for public office.
texas70...I've worked for almost 3 years in a completely solar building. There is absolutely NO difference in the heat or air conditioning. There are a number of NJ municipal building who are already making the switch to solar. It works. It's cleaner than oil and clearly far less costly. Anyone who says solar doesn't work has to be a Big Oil Shill who doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.
First Energy out of TX has bought up the lion's share of many utilities in my state. Then, NJ got fed up with the Texas shakedown every winter when First Energy started price gouging and electricity and natural gas (yes...I posted natural gas because they own those in NJ too) went through the roof.
The option was continue to lose more and more of your income to a Big Oil shakedown or make the switch. There's a huge reduction in the number of gas guzzlers on the road. And a big increase in homes installing solar panels on roofs and the exteriors of the homes. So much so that the panels are now even "decorative".
But, the curious thing? First Energy began to install SOLAR PANELS on the street light poles all over NJ. So...tell me again how solar doesn't work.
I don't care how much people bitch about this president. This is how you launch a mission that needs the international community. There is no America went this alone crap. We are now lending support and we should NOT take a major role in this conflict. This is Europe's issue and we are doing our part as a NATO/UN member and not running the show. Good job and let someone else do the heavy lifting for once. I hope we do not expand our role behind lobbing bombs from our Naval fleets.
You obviously have a reading comprehension problem. I took swipes at both the right and left media outlets. Oh wait, that's where your ignorant comment came from. You hate people who think for themselves.
Jahmekan: The UN is the approval point for most wars. Bush sent Powell to the UN. Please note how often it starts with that enthusiastic coalition of countries, much huzzah and smoke, and when the smoke clears, guess who gets stuck with the remainders? The good ol' stupid, evil etc. USA.
Obama's budget he submitted this month would put the US in an increased 9 trillion in debt by the end of his 4-year term. Let us just pray that that will be the true end of his term.
I consider myself a statesman. The cronies in DC have sold us down the river. Bush I give break due to dealing with 9/11. Obama has no excuse what-so-ever. They all need to go to court and respond to what they have done.
datadon, the US uses 19,000,000bbl every single day, so that wonderful 19,000,000,000bbl is about three years worth of oil. then it's gone..
looks like "drill baby, drill" is pretty stupid after all
Had Enough- I dont recall any heavy machinery in the 18th and 19th century
President Obama is just doing this for the oil. I'll bet he has stock in Halliburton.
@ewent
You work in a green building you say. Are the chairs made of plastic? Do they oil the door hinges? Do the factories that made the equipment use oil in their process? Does anyone in the building take any medications? Do people drive to work? Is the parking lot blacktopped? Are there windows in the building?
All of the above processes were done with the inclusion of OIL!
Obama is a typical liberal hypocrit. Obama was against the war in Iraq and one of Bush's harshest critics. When Bush attacked and eliminated an oil rich Arab dictator (Hussein) who murdered his own people in order to free the people of Iraq, then according to Obama it is the crime of the century. However, now its OK for Obama to attack and try to eliminate an oil rich Arab dictator (Gadhafi) who murders his own people because Obama says he is "proctecting the people" of Libya. Classic liberal hypocracy on display. Cannot help but LOL at this absurdity.
Obama has broken his promise on just about everything else too such as closing down Gitmo and shutting down military tribunal trials for terrorists. It's plain to see Obama cannot be trusted to do anything he says. He has no principle, no courage, no direction, no confidence, no moral compass, no competence, no leadership ability and most of all, no business being President. He is a weak, incompetent, party boy, and HE MUST GO. Thank God November 2012 is just arond the corner.
Ewent
buy a history book, preferably not one the public school libbie written ones...JFK and LBJ murdered 63,000 American soldiers and 5 million civilions including women and children
your right Dave....
hahaha..."big oil"..."big pharma"..."big banking"..."big boobs"...laughable
How many people were in the US 200 years ago? There are 330M people in the US now. The old plow behind the horse isn't going to work. We also export a lot of crops. Think about it.........
How is this justifiable. Just go read post #1.117. Do you want me to LMFAO at you, "no troops on the ground".
The only bloat in the US Military are those hundred million US Civilians in the US Military (that are NOT US Military nor US Contractors). As far as wasting money on "useless" projects. How about not using half or more of those "common" items that you use as funded by or researched by the US Military (especially previous ARPA, now known as DARPA), that would also include those current Medical Procedures to save your arse.
Ask President Obama after he gets back to the US, how a person with a fourth grade education (Are you Smarter than a Fifth Grader) made Brazil into what it is now (Financially Stable and growing, nearly energy independent, etc.). I did the research and included this in my 1990s Research Paper to US Government (updated 1993, updated 2009).
Mark Brantley, before anyone knew any better we also had the "Dust Bowl" and many other agricultural disasters.
beat me to it. If all of you bother to read post # 1.117 I told all of you why the price of Oil is going up in the US. And it does not have to do with Libya's Oil that 85% goes to Europe.
Add the most important, women wearing cosmetics (Oil based, not whale fat). Think about those that are not exactly "pretty" minus the "make up".
Zevron, where did you get the %s. I need the unclassified reference to use in the future after I verify the info with another reference.
add to post #3.39.
Just a correction. 1. Iraq (replacing "Combat Units" with Non Combat Units, trained as Combat Units), 2. here (Afghanistan), 3. Secret War Started by President Obama (ask Lieberman he shot his mouth off about the two Secret Wars), 4. Secret War Started by President Obama, 5. Libya.
So now that is 5 Wars the US Military is involved in directly.
Zevron,
I am serious about wanting the unclassified source of you percentages.
I can say Saudi Arabian Al Quada, but cannot state the percentages from my references. Same with Hamas Foreign Fighters, Chechen Foreign Fighters, Kurdistanis Elements (PKK, HPG, KGK), Hezbollah, Army of Islam (Gaza), Pakistanis Taliban, Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban (Afghanistan), Army of Islam (Pakistan), Al Quada in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM), Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG), Jemaah Islamiya (JI), Abu Sayyaf Group (ASG), New People's Army, Rajah Solaiman Movement, Al Quada in Iraq (AQI), Ansar al Islam (AI), Ansar al Sunna (AS), Fatah al Islam (FAI), Al Quada in Yemen (AQY), Hizb e Islami Gulbuddin or Hizb e Islami Khalis, Hamas and Hezbollah at South America, etc..
So help me out give me your unclassified reference for your percentages.
To all those reading this (other than Zevron) and do not know what we are talking about, you really do not want to know.
France, US and their allies interventions to save the poor citizens treated as slaves by Gadhafi and his men are justified morally and legally.
This Gadhafi and likes of him are still in their seventh century tents. The words like "colonial," "crusaders," and so on are the outdated words, which carry no meaning these days.
Our concerns are the barbarians and beasts acting under the name of religion, region under their control and excuses to rape people.
It is our duty to see that these beasts don't cause huge damages to their own citizens treated worse than slaves.
His "tent" darn sure looks like a Palace to me, with electric lights, television cameras, carpet, maybe flush toilets, etc.
Means quite a bit to the rest of the Islamic World, 1.5 Billion Islamic Believers. Your "Westen" concepts do not apply outside of the US or the airconditioned Offices at the UN. As to why we tell the Aid Workers to paint over the Red Crosses ("Crusaders Crosses") with Red Crescents, or they will be attacked here by Al Quada, Taliban, Hamas Foreign Fighters, Chechen Foreign Fighters, Pakistanis Taliban, Army of Islam (Pakistan), etc..
The term "Colonial" is still fresh in many of the former British Colonies, and the slave status that the local population endured. Not to mention this is continually taught in their Education Systems from childhood to adult along with the mandatory Mein Kampf, and Protocols of the Wise Elders of Zion (blame the Jews for everything).
So if the UN declared that the US Citizens are slaves to the US Corporations, and declared that the Chinese and Russian Federation would intervene, would you be happy, that this would be justified morally and legally.
Do you know how many times the US has been Allies, then turned on our Allies, labelling them Dictators, Tyrants, Despots, etc. while ignoring those that actually are/were. Like I said before, the US does not always wear the "White Hat" of the Good Guys. And if you think I do not know the difference, just research those US activities at Iraq under H.R.4655. Do you honestly think that funding, organizing, arming, hundreds of thousands of assassins and insurgent is justified morally and legally (the written Law, H.R.4655 full filling your "Legal" Requirement, regardless of the International Laws) to Overthrow a Soverign Nation's Government. If another Nation did that to the US what would you think, what would the US response be to another Nation training, funding, organizing, arming US Citizens to assassinate the US President and Overthrow the US Government. And what would happen to those US Citizens that attempted the assassination of the US President and Overthrow of the US Government. That is what US Law, H.R.4655, as a Declaration of War attempted to do at first, and after failing, US Military Operation Desert Fox, 1998.
Zevron- It's the same ecstasy the American public felt watching news coverage of Desert Storm. If the armchair quarterbacks in this country were actually in the vicinity of bombs going off and body parts flying, they would be singing a much different tune. They should ask any war vet how glamorous the effects of those missiles really are.
You must need some history lessons here. You see, Bush went to war against the UN. He did not have thier support. Obama was asked for help and 10 other nations agreed.
The oil in Iraq was supposed to pay for the war, remember?
Freeing the Iraqi people? I'm sure they weren't slaves. Saddam was a stablizer in the region. His mistake was invading Kuwait for the same reason Bush invaded him... oil.
The oil in Lybia does not go to the U.S. There is no financial gain there. It is a humanitarian effort supported by the U.N.
We are already in the Middle East, diverting some military there is no huge feat.
France is leading the strike, not US. Bush and the countries he conned for support attacked Iraq for profit. You should remember the speeches rapped in patriotism from Bush with fears of a mushroom cloud to obtain the support of a democrat-controlled congress.
You are trying to compare an unjust action to a just action.
Let me also remind you that the president was being criticized for not stepping up to the Lybian oppression by his conservative apponents. Now that he has, like any other decision this president makes, they appose it.
I believe reverse psychology is needed by this president to get anything done. He simply needs to appose the agenda he wants and promote the agenda he doesn't want. That way, the republican's "Make Obama Fail" campaign would in itself fail.
Finally, it is our country's duty to promote democracy and oppress the oppressors. In Lybia, our military is acting for its intended purpose and not for the All Mighty Dollar.
Zevron - That has got to be the most horrific thing imaginable. I can only imagine the effect it has on your psyche.
I'm with jbirdofthe South on this one. Since when are we the military force of the United Nations? And you can bet that the first time something goes wrong, like civilians being killed, the U.N. will be at the front of those protesting against the USA. Iraq and Afganastan continue ( Afganastan war effort expanded by "O"), and here comes another involvement in a third war, all the while our Federal debt becoming larger each day, edging closer to bankruptcy. Where are the anti-war protestors, like Cindy Sheehan who so willingly dumped on President Bush, but is strangely silent in any protesting of "O's" ever expanding wars?
We always been the world's police for decades. Always seem to have $$ to go to wars but nothing for us average americans back at home.
America is like a rich relative. Everyone wants a piece of USA and want him to foot the bill on everyone else. But once they figure USA is broke, they will quickly forget him.
Cindy Sheehan was arrested recently by picketing in front of the White House...she protested in Oslo when 'O' accepted Nobel Peace Prize...she has since become radicalized and is now a Marxist, haha
What becomes of a liberal scorned? They become a Maoist!
Perhaps Bush should have focused on Afghanistan instead of being ADD about it and attacking Iraq.
Mao has more in common with republican conservatives. Don't forget that despots don't appreciate liberals either.
The United Nations were established for a reason. I do say that the U.S. has always had the most invested because we are true blue fighting for freedom Americans. In most countries that means nothing because they never had it. God put us on this earth to live not fight,but if thats what it takes for freedon then thats what we will give them. With or without the support of other countries.Freedom comes at a great price and there is no other country that knows this more. I don't know anybody in the other countries,but if you were driving by and seen a wreck on the road would you honestly get out to see if anyone was hurt. Them are the basic instincts of life as we know it. All I'm saying is that the people need everyone elses help and we cannot and will not turn our backs on anyone. If we did then all of the previous soldiers have died in vein. Justice has no sides but right. We will do whats right.May GOD grant the freedom for all.
Hey FDShuster where were you from 2001-2007 when 43 and Republicans were spending and warring this country into oblivion. My guess would be on these boards blaming Muslim terrorists for all of our problems. Hypocrite.
Considering it's a UN resolution that was passed by the world. Including Arab nations is different then going to war in Iraq against the entire world saying don't do it.
And everyone is on this If America gets involved we will be blamed. Do people actually read anything before they type, or browse a headline. No boots on the ground. Both Britain and FFS FRANCE are the ones that are sending war planes to enforce the no fly zone and do the bombing runs. Not the US who will use AWAX and give intelligence. I still have not read anywhere that the US is preparing its fighters for battle their. Just the British sending Typhoon and other such fighters to the area. So now even when other countries. Technically our allies don't even disagree and take the lead. Its just another time to bash Americans? Go protest outside the French embassy and tell them you are against this like they did to us if you feel that way and support Gadafi and what hes doing killing civilians cause its not us. But bitch at the price of gas as he raises and lowers it for fun. They are the ones leading this military no fly zone. NOT THE US. But people all have that in their mind as fact when its never been said...not once.
My other problem is the rebel fighters say the west let them down. When the west intervenes then we are bad guys. When we don't we allow slaughter. Well. We are a member of the UN. No one voted against the measure. And Britain and France are taking the lead. We will back them. they are using fighter jets. Not us. So we will back them like they did us. People make up facts and don;t know specifics so often. fact is Gadaffi is finished somehow or another. If by his own people or the French and British enforcing a no fly zone with or without us. Doing without any help from us when even Canada is sending fighters their would make us look as though we don't care about saving civilians like we were also supposedly doing in Iraq. But only our interest, or those pulling the strings. And when this is said and done the new government in Libya should know who helped them get their. As opposed to saying what have you done. It was Britain and France that helped us. we seem to want to fight the wars that are lies and not helped in , but are completely against a resolution that has the support of the word.
Democrats hate war no matter what and don't care about the killing of innocents as long as Americans are not fighting the war no matter what, even someone slaughtering innocents in a resolution the world agrees on. Kinda like how we tried to stay out of WW2 and not fight Hitler. And the Republicans want war everywhere non stop. They would have been happier if we would have just gone after Libya 2 weeks ago before resolutions and took the led so we can kill more people. Lose more soldiers and get more oil. Instead we waited a bit. got the world behind it. And don't even need to take the lead. GOP members make jabs that even France stepped up to the plate to help Libya while Obama took 5 mins to fill an NCAA bracket out which all presidents do and should have been threatening war from the beginning. So hes bashed by the GOP for not doing anything. And the Dems for going through the UN on a bill pushed by France , Britain, And even Lebanon, as well as Italy cause its us getting involved somewhere else.
this country, many in this country. Are GOP or Dem. And no matter what choice their side makes they will take the oppisite. I am a left leaning Independent former DEM who just couldn;t stand the BS both sides have and can't seem to figure out what to do in the most odvious decisions that even Camaroon can figure out in 1 hearing. What is wrong with our country. Its gotten really said. If the GOP came up with an idea to have peace and hapiness forever and make s all rich the Dems would fight it just cause who it came from. If the Dems found a way for us all t live happy healthy lives well off with no war and great times for all. The GOP would fight it in the same.
Stop reading Faux, MSN, And partisan news articles. Or both. get the real idea. Think for yourself. Don;t base your thoughts on your parties thoughts. Its sad when Al Jazeera seems to be the most neutral of news sources
We have been the main UN force since 1950 when we led a force (85% American) into South Korea to defend it vs. N. Korea. That was the first UN force used and it set the tone for further actions to this day. Remember that the UN was chartered in the US and is housed in the US.
New world order
Automatic
Take
Over
Here's winking at ya One Eye!
f d Shuster: Since we led the "UN" forces into the Korean War (or conflict if you prefer).
fd shuster...Is this the same "south" that has two senators who want cuts to education, housing and defense? Puhlease. I'm livid that DeMint and Paul have the nerve to make cuts to education. They think if they make these cuts it won't hurt their rich campaign donors? Add McConnell to that mix and you have red staters who make federal dole a joke. They want states rights so they can force kids to learn what their oblique right angled ideology teaches.
Wake up people. If we continue to allow a misguided bunch of right wing rabble rousers to reduce your freedom of choice and freedom of expression, how close are you to living in a Republicanocracy?
Kleptocracy or Plutocracy?
rlkwilldo...Gotta agree...in order to keep the rich richer than God, you draw from the empty well so the one overflowing with cash can keep overflowing.
And as now being reported just like I said. We have people ripping what America is doing and how we shouldn't be their. yet the French are leading the air campaign with out support. With the worlds support. I actualy don;t mind the role the US plays in this as a contributor to a terrible regime slaughtering civilians getting put in its place by the international community. Not a grudge war. And us not having to be the leaders and police it. It's the first time in the UN;s history it seems that the UN has agreed on something and other countries did the main part as opposed on only the US. So as i ranted earlier. The OP talking about how we are going and gettin involved in another war we don't need to be in and let them kill themselves. And go protest. Is so far ahead of themselves they don;t even look and realize we are providing logistics to an ally, on a UN mission, while they (the French of ALL countries) lead the way. Show some support for your country and allies instead of jumping to conclusions that never even turn out to end up happening and bashing the policies based on something that isn;'t happening or their. Its not Bush vs Saddam here. its the world vs a man committing war crimes being lead by other countries that usual stay out of everything or surrender in every war. f the French are leading the way then they definitely are doing something wrong. France doesn't ever do anything like this. Just use that as an idea where the world is on this matter
What's with the anti-French resentment? It was the French in WWII who had one of the strongest underground resistence fighters who saved thousands of American soldiers crossing from German occupied territory into France.
Enough already with bashing the French. They are our allies and always have been. The French have a right to want to retain their culture. They are not a multi-cultured country. It's what make France, French. Personally, I admire Sarkozy. He's a new age French politician with ideas that are not so antiquated. Like President Obama, he's a humanitarian and a reformer.
People who don't like change have a reason: fear of the unknown based on gross insecurity. That doesn't mean the world has to remain in the dark ages. We can honor old ideas and take from them what we need but leave that which no longer has validity.
The resistance fighters were given aid by the americans and british beforehand. Germany could have wiped them out if Hitler hadn't invaded Russia and split his forces.
Daniel Strahan...Oh really? And you were in the French forests in WWII when the sight of a French resistance fighter was THERE to aid Americans and British? Germany could have wiped out Britain too if the Americans didn't arrive when they did. Nice try painting the French as the bad guys.
It just couldn't happen to a nicer guy. Let's just call it a debt long overdue is getting paid. We missed him by about 100 yards or so in 1986 and I doubt the descendants of Pan Am flight 103 are shedding any tears for him. Did you ever just look at someone and say "He ain't right". Hell is waiting on you Colonel.
You are a complete fool if you think American boots won't be on the ground, special forces will be there by next weekend, if they aren't already.
As they have announced this is only "the first phase", we will be mired in Libya for years, just one more money pit with no ROI.
Obama is a typical liberal hypocrit. Obama was against the war in Iraq and one of Bush's harshest critics. When Bush attacked and eliminated an oil rich Arab dictator (Hussein) who murdered his own people in order to free the people of Iraq, then according to Obama it is the crime of the century. However, now its OK for Obama to attack and try to eliminate an oil rich Arab dictator (Gadhafi) who murders his own people because Obama says he is "proctecting the people" of Libya. Classic liberal hypocracy on display. Cannot help but LOL at this absurdity.
Obama has broken his promise on just about everything else too such as closing down Gitmo and shutting down military tribunal trials for terrorists. It's plain to see Obama cannot be trusted to do anything he says. He has no principle, no courage, no direction, no confidence, no moral compass, no competence, no leadership ability and most of all, no business being President. He is a weak, incompetent, party boy, and HE MUST GO. Thank God November 2012 is just arond the corner.
Perhaps if you bothered to do the research you would know something. If and when you do the research you will have a What The F**k moment.
I previously explained everything in detail including our (my men, women, myself) involvement. And was critized because my post was too long, then told that I released "Unclassified" but "Sensitive" Information.
The blame game without doing the research only embarasses yourself.
tw1sted. I already told you to research the not so "stellar" History of the Arab League.
And FYI, Iraq = UN Mission, Nation Building. Afghanistan = UN Mission, Nation Building.
Just to get the terminology correct.
US Army = Troops, Soldiers, Rangers. Combatants (US Military Ground Warfare). Conventional Warfare.
USAF = Airmen, Pilots (few 1% to 2% of USAF). Mostly Bureaucrats and Support Personnel. Conventional Warfare (rare) as most are on Secure Air Bases protected by US Military Ground Forces of the US Army and USMC.
USMC = Marines. All are Combatants per USMC Commandant. Conventional Warfare (US Military Ground Combat, some are US Military Aviators (small percentage)).
USN = Sailors, Seamen, Pilots (small percentage). Love Boat Cruises. Conventional Warfare. I have a right to say that as I earned my Surface Warfare Badge, and my Dolphins Badge (Submarine). 3 hot meals, showers, and a "hot rack" (shared with others, unless you are an Officer, CPO, PO, etc.).
The exceptions about 3% of the entire US Military that trained up from US Military Conventional Warfare that takes about a decade or more (must have Lanuage Training and Immersion):
US Army Special Forces aka Green Berets (Asymmetric Warfare, Combatants). With attached 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, SOAR, (Pilots that fly the MH-47s, MH-60s, AH/MH-6s, etc.).
USAF Special Operations Wings (SOWs) (Asymmetric Warfare, Combatants). Combat Controllers, Para Rescue Jumpers, Combat Weathermen form into Special Tactics Teams as usually assigned to US Army Special Forces,USMC MARSOC Teams and USN SEAL Teams. Also the pilots and air crews of the AC/MC-130s, MH-60s, HH-60s, MH-53s, etc. They must attend certain US Army, USMC, USN schools.
USMC Marine Corps Special Operations Command, MARSOC, Teams (Asymmetric Warfare, Combatants).
USN Sea Air Land "SEALs" (Asymmetric Warfare, Combatants).
Ever since the formation of Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC), in many cases the above are attached to form Joint Special Operations Task Forces. It is not unusual for the individual Branches Special Operations Forces to attend each others Special Operations Schools.
(Unclassified) all of the US Military Special Warfare has certain things in common that cannot be accomplished by the US Military Conventional Warfare Forces due to lack of training, experience, maturity, specialized equipment:
Direct Action
Special Reconnaissance (including Independent Intelligence Verification)
Foreign Internal Defense
Unconventional Warfare (Asymmetric Warfare, Insurgency, Counter Insurgency Warfare)
Counter Terrorism
The US Military Special Warfare Forces are NOT throw aways like the US Military Conventional Warfare Forces and are considered as Strategic Assets.
Just a note for those that attempt to get into the US Military Special Warfare Forces, usually short duration high intensity sports types like American Football Players do not make it and might just make it into US Army Rangers. Usually, it is the long duration high intensity sports types like European Football Players, Tri Athletes, Cross Country Runners, Marathon Runners, etc. that will make it.
And for many of those that do not know what a Real Team is, there are many "I's" in Real Teams, Initiative, Intelligence, Innovation, Integrity, Individual (Strengths and Weaknesses), Ingenuity, etc.. And do not tell me that I do not know how to spell, as literally no I in spelling Team; as this is why many have no clue as to what Real (Life or Death) Teams are, versus Sports Teams (highest paid players make the "team") after losing get to go home and we come home in a metal coffin with a flag on top if we lose.
By the way if you look at a Map of Afghanistan you will note that the majority is mountains as part of the same mountain chain as Mount Everest, "The Roof of the World", Pamir.
This is why sending more and more "bodies" (US Military Conventional Warfare Forces) here is not exactly productive as the majority are not trained in Mountain Warfare (technical Mountain Climbing, Winter (near Arctic Conditions) and Summer), that includes the 10th "Mountain" Division (Conventional Warfare) not being trained.
Sending more "bodies" also means more targets, increased deaths, this can also be counter productive as meeting the Enemy Strategic Asymmetric Warfare Goal of defeating the Enemy's National Will to Fight, as what happened to the USSR 40th Army Occupation (Conventional Warfare), as more and more USSR Military went back to Russia in body bags, the USSR Citizens were outraged.
Historically, Conventional Warfare Automatically Loses against Asymmetric Warfare. Like I said before a Civil War IS Asymmetric Warfare. (Not the US Civil War, which was Conventional Warfare Strategy and Tactics, and Uniforms on both sides).
Putting US Military on Fixed Bases conforms to the US Military Principle to defeat ourselves. Find the enemy (known location if you are on a Base), Fix in place (if you are on a Base, you are already fixed in place), destroy (those on a Base become fish in a barrel). The USSR tried the same Conventional Warfare Strategy and Tactics to hold the ground with more Bases than the US Military Conventional Warfare Forces can occupy and more USSR Military than the US Military currently has.
Also US Military Special Warfare does NOT just go around killing everyone. As part of Asymmetric Warfare, there are the weekly Medical Assistance Visits, as many are also trained as Physicians Assistants, to provide Medical Care to the Locals, help build Schools and Medical Clinics, Teach at the Schools (nothing religious), Dig Water Wells, etc.. This is done thru years of consecutive tours to gain the trust of the local population by living with the Locals (a Strategic Goal of Asymmetric Warfare). Something the Conventional Warfare Forces cannot accomplish (only stay for one year on a Base and leave).
Asymmetric Wars can take decades to win or lose.
And now most of you want us to get into another Asymmetric War (Civil War).
Before we get into this, most people have to know the Longterm Strategic Goals, the Exit Strategy (when is this too much, or when to call it quits, is this a win or loss). This must be determined before NOT during, nor after everything starts.
Pepster
got my own garden in my backyard...grow enough to can up some for winter...eat fresh stuff , no need to buy the swill and garbage from Crapifornia...not that hard
David, Years ago, I hunted in the mountains of the Delaware Water Gap in eastern PA. You don't take a level step anywhere you walk. It's either up, down, or leaning sideways. It battered me in hours yet alone months of humping Afghanistan's mountains. In the beginning, they got the mountain units out of NY state sent over there. I could readily understand why. You need to be in real good shape when you start up and down the mountains. They'll break you real quick. When I was in, I stood a shot at doing it. Now, the thought of it wears me out. People just don't realize what the infantry units go through. Those guys definitely have my respect.
The tragic irony to this is if we do nothing and let a country of people that have been killing themselves daily for...well...forever work through their internal problems internally, we'll be ridiculed by the global community for doing absolutely nothing and letting millions be slaughtered.
And if we step in and end this...we'll be ridiculed for being the country that "once again" stuck their nose in another country's affairs.
Sad but true Shawn. But give credit where it's due. It'll be our own media that does this. They'll jump at anything to criticize their own country.
Yeah Antony, MSNBC will lead the way.
Its called freedom of the press, a constitutional provision. It seems to be a postive thing, not negative as you imply. Whereas the Libyan media does not report on the negative activities of the Libyan government, we here in the U.S. are much better informed. Not perfectly, and with negative aspects to this freedom as well. I do find it ironic that you criticize the press for criticizing our country, and in the process, you criticize the constitutional foundation of the country you don't want criticized.
I disagree with you. FIXNEWS will jump in a screw every thing up as they normally do.
Fair and Balance my ass...
blindbat, its true. Fox news should be official correspondents for the United Nations (UN). Then they can say they are UNfair and UNbalanced. Which fixes the deception problem. But the reason you know they are unfair and unbalanced, is because they are balanced out by other news outlets. That is the genius of not having only one, state controlled, media. We know more than we know, because of the media. Celebrate this freedom. With freedom, there is always a dark side, but in this case, the light outshines the dark.
There is NO unbiased news organization in the US at this time. Everyone has a slant whether it is to the Right or Left. Unfortunately the only news organization to really get the true story is the foreign correspondence reporters. I am skeptical of all of the US news agencies as they will continue to press the stories to reflect their beliefs. I long for the old days of 12, 6 and 10 reporting where you get the important facts and not this 24 hour news cycle which tends to "make up" stories to fill time.
I'd rather the USA be ridiculed by the press than our soldiers getting their arms and legs blown off by some rag heads.
damned if you do, damned if you don't, I'd rather be damned on the right side of history, that is, the AMERICAN history.
Once again, your not very good with history are you? Try Wikipedia for a nice overview of Libya, It's not your average Arab country. In fact most of us western have a piss poor knowledge about the history of the Arab world.
I know the current crop of us Americans think history is unimportant, but it actually matters a lot. "those that do not understand history are bound to repeat it" is a true statement. And why I believe the United States of America is bound to make a VERY large mistake in the next 10 to 50 years. The same one my German ancestors did last century.
Shawn, regrettably you are 100% correct. I guess the new Obama Foreign diplomacy policy has landed at home again. Once again the Obamanation has failed and proven that this administration has effectively paralyzed not only the economy, but even the ability to do what is right. Lets get a new Czar- call him the foreign policy implementation Czar. Just another failure for this administration- this is the first time I can recall since Roosevelt ( who was another piss poor decision maker) that American policy was stuck between a serious Rock and a Hard place. What a flippin mess- so much for constitutional law degree's.
Kadafi is correct- What would Obama do if this was in America?
There is no comparison. Daffy is a despotic ruler. Our leaders are allegedly elected, and can be unseated by the same process that seats them.
Hey, some of us our proud of being ragheads although generally most of us I know prefer to use light weight high quality cotton. Take a look at Sikh history how my people held off an Islamic takeover of India, but at the same time we actually maintained friendships with many pro-freedom Muslims and many of our Muslim friends died beside us Sikhs fighting the cruel Moghul empire.
Sikhs have a proud history in WWII, we fought like lions to our dying breaths protecting freedom. Even though early Sikh immigrants sometimes faced discrimination in the US, we still kept our gurdwaras open to everyone and we even fed poor American families with no regard to their religious beliefs.
Please don't bother to tell us to go back to India, because after us Sikhs threw the Brits off our land the Hindus got India (Hindustan), and the Muslims got Pakistan, but did the Sikhs get Khalistan even though we took the brunt of the war to get the British out?
The Indian government still tries to cover up its crimes against Sikhs, so if you want us gone then you better help us get Khalistan. If we got Khalistan I would be on the first plane I could get and I would bring all the great things I've learned about being born and raised in the US with me and leave all the negative things at the airport.
The two opposing accusations are cynically made by opposing camps. We should simply do what is right. Libya should be democratic and free. Gaddafi is a lying, two-faced dictator. We should not buy his Al Qaeda terrorists versus Gaddafi tyrannists vision. Terrorism is an answer to tyranny. The latter comes first. Gaddafi must go. A free Libya would add to stability in the democracies across the Mediterranean. We should be doing much more than enforcing no-fly zones. Democracy and freedom are the best answer to tyranny.
Tis true unfortunately. As the saying goes we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. With the UN resolution though I'm hoping there won't be too much talk about just us. One can only wait and see. Though personally I think it's long past time for that guy to go. I can live with either one of those statements if it means saving lives. Hope you understand where i'm coming from on that.
Yeah, all of the sudden your country is very worried about human issues in Libya, wierd, I thought its usualy all about oil with you guys:)
What is confusing about this all is, if Obama sends the military in full force to save these people he'll be blamed for spending too much. But if he does nothing he'll be blamed for not having a strong fist. And then if he forces the UN international community to finally decide if they stake in these civil wars people think he's handing the military over to the world.
What do you right wingers want? Do you want Bush to come back and march America into this without the UN? After-all there are probably weapons of mass destruction in Libya.
What the teabaggers want, TFF, is a white person back in office. They try to hide it, because it looks REALLY bad in the press when they admit it, but that's the real reason for all the hate. It's ugly and it's shameful and it's un-American, but it's the hard truth.
Matthias-sing:
My ancestors fought in the Revolutionary war, after they were sold to France, by the German Chancellor. When they arrived in America, the revolutionaries offered them, their freedom and land , if they promised to fight, on the side of the Americans. They did and proudly so! It is incomprehensible, what any government will do, to keep the power and privileges, they have, at the expense of their their people.
Wars all over this world and in every century are about power, wealth and greed. I was apprehensive about the United States entering, into another quagmire but when I saw the coffins, of innocent young people, lined up, in row after row, I knew someone had to help the people of Libya. War is never about freedom for the people, it is about which powerful entity is going to get the most. People like you and I, do not matter. We go through life believing, we have rights and power but we have pretty much weakened that stance because, of a few wealthy elitists, who have managed, to manipulate enough people, to vote their puppets into power.
I am not a soldier, although I have had a family member, fight in every war, since the Revolution. I fear for the lives of our soldiers. Not only with the possibility, they may be killed but, if they are injured, will these newly elected puppets, vote to provide the quality care, our soldiers, have so bravely earned?
A look back at history tells us, governments and the powerful people, of every century, and every country, consider middle and lower class lives, expendable. From Africa, to Germany, to the United States, the least powerful and most abundant, are sent to do the bidding, for those who rule. The soldiers go believing they are fighting for freedom but, those in government are wanting more power, more wealth, more land.
Again, we Americans, have a history of helping and providing aid. Even if it means death. As an American you of Indian descent, I can understand your wanting to help your people. When 9/11 struck our country, I wanted to help but all I could do was contribute money and pray. I am a talented and highly trained nurse but my skills were not needed. Most of us, felt the same.
My point is, we the people, are willing to sacrifice life and limb but for what? Freedom to write our opinions, on a post like this? Yes. Freedom to vote? Yes? Freedom to be? Yes. Freedom at any cost. It appears to be so.
What I believe is no one should starve. No one should live without shelter. No one should live without clothes. Everyone should have an opportunity to an education. Everyone should have the right to work, if they have the ability. BUT..... not everyone wants the people, like you and me, to have those basic necessities. Because that means less for them. I do not care what century you study, what country you live in, what socioeconomic back ground, from which you are born; there are those who believe they are entitled to more. They want what you have and what I have and more importantly, they do not want to earn it, they want you to do the work for them. That is war is all about. Fighting and dying for people who do not care, if everyone dies or suffers the consequences of war, they want it all for nothing.
Our media is almost all corporate and big money dominated. They led most people to believe we belonged in Korea, Vietmam. Iraq, Iran. Nicaragua, chile, panama. amd many places where we had no business.
We don't really have a liberal media. Who has condemed our defence of The Saudi royal family and the Emir of kuwait. Both run their countries like company stores. It took many years for the American to know we did not belong in Vietnam and many think we should be in Iraq and Afganistan.
Many do not know how our banking system works or how one sided and costly it is to the people. We are poorley informed about things that affect our daily lives and that is not an accident.
I agree with much of what you said Take that back, but I must clarify that despite being a Sikh I am not of Indian descent. I do not intend to be misleading when I say things such as "my people" it is just that Sikhs view the tenth Sikh Guru as their spiritual father and many Sikhs refer to each other as brother and sister out of love and respect for each other. Although I try to see God's light in everyone, and I try to treat everyone equally regardless of what they believe as I feel that is what my faith teaches and well... Nobody really needs somebody to tell them to try to treat others as you would have them treat you because that is just one of those truths that has been around at least as long as the dawn of humankind even though we tend to forget at times.
There WAS an unbiased news organization....Public Broadcasting. But as usual, the power freaks of the Republicanocracy House decided ..."no funding". Not that it will hurt PBS...it will only force a showdown that Republicans won't like. They obviously think by starving programs for unbiased news and journalism is a way to crush the life out of it. Think again of Grand Pubbahs of Upper Butt Crack.
Now, more Americans will do what they can to insure that the Bully Boy Republicans starvation programs fail. It's called public support. Not Corporate support.
If Republicans don't stop using Corporate America to control this country, they won't have a party left. These are not the Republicans of 100 years ago. These are spoiled, selfish, self-centered little boys Momma forgot to wean. Their diapers are full and it's time to potty train them.
France, Italy, Spain and Britain; the core of this new allied push. Why? They are the nations most likely to suffer if Quaddafi stays in power. While I agree with their actions, I always have trouble accepting the lame and obvious excuses used to warrant them; including (or should I say mostly) the ones offered by certain presidents of recent history. Iraq, oops! )I rack) my brain trying to determine why they bother making them in the first place.
JohnS-WRJ-VT...if you need the answer, ask any US vet who served in WWII or the Korean War. History books are loaded with the cohesion of allied troops fighting side by side to overturn a horrible episode in history. If you speak to any of these vets, you get the idea that they weren't separated at all by country. They were in fact only united by a single effort...to stop the kind of horrors that occurred because of Hitler.
France, Italy, Spain and Britain have always been the Big Four. Germany after WWII has now become the addition. The other European countries lacked the economic stability to generate the kind of military power these 5 nations have. In effect, they became an allied union to insure that no other dictator dares try what Hitler did.
Thanks Toasty for saying what everyone already knew but just never said. The tea baggers and I`d say around 60% of the country want the same thing. They`d rather see a lying, thieving, coward like lil bush in the oval office then a compassionate man like the current president we have. Too bad he has to hand over lots of his authority to the party of no in order to get a bill passed. But they dont love this country no more then lil bush does. They just love what they GET using their positions and through the sacrifices that a lot of normal Americans that have died for this country have availed them. It makes me sick watching them on t.v. with their lil flags on their lapels pretending to be patriotic Americans when all the while their making back room deals with the very people that would visit harm upon this country. Very few have spoken about the partnerships with the bush family and the bin ladens. Is there no surprise that bin laden has never been " found " ?
Damned if we do and damned if we don't....It being the case that we are therefore damned regardless, the obvious choice is to do the right thing, which in this case means let us be damned for doing.
Obama is a typical liberal hypocrit. Obama was against the war in Iraq and one of Bush's harshest critics. When Bush attacked and eliminated an oil rich Arab dictator (Hussein) who murdered his own people in order to free the people of Iraq, then according to Obama it is the crime of the century. However, now its OK for Obama to attack and try to eliminate an oil rich Arab dictator (Gadhafi) who murders his own people because Obama says he is "proctecting the people" of Libya. Classic liberal hypocracy on display. Cannot help but LOL at this absurdity.
Obama has broken his promise on just about everything else too such as closing down Gitmo and shutting down military tribunal trials for terrorists. It's plain to see Obama cannot be trusted to do anything he says. He has no principle, no courage, no direction, no confidence, no moral compass, no competence, no leadership ability and most of all, no business being President. He is a weak, incompetent, party boy, and HE MUST GO. Thank God November 2012 is just arond the corner.
Zevron~ Who are you commenting to or at? This is about missile strikes............
blindbat and stoopid...hahaha...perfect names...not a "personal attack" just an observation...and thanks for playing the game
TheTruth...hahahaha
ewent; I have no need to talk with vets. My son just got back from A-stan a couple of months ago. I served during the Vietnam War, my father in Korea and with Patton's 3rd army in WW 2, my grandfather as an engineer in WW1. I could give you trace history back to the Civil War if I thought of it. Add to this the fact that I work as a volunteer at a VA Hospital 25 hours a week and you can see why I really don't need to talk with Vets, I speak with WW2 Vets 4 Days a week .
BY THE WAY, CHECK YOUR HISTORY BOOKS and you will find that SPAIN WAS A NEUTRAL COUNTRY DURING WW2; additionally the big four were The USA, Britain, France and Russia AFTER WW2 and referred to as "the ALLIES" during the war as they opposed Germany, Italy and Japan who were referred to as the "AXIS" powers. Do me and yourself a favor and please don't proselytize on subjects which you don't know a dammed thing about. Especially to one who does.
I knew I missed something; Francisco Franco was the Totalitarian, Fascist ruler of Spain after the Spanish Revolution. Spain itself was in total economic chaos after the revolution and very weak militarily; again, check your facts and read some history books outside of what they teach you in public school. Any teacher worth his salt will tell you the same thing; take it from a history buff who drove his History Prof crazy.
Zevron~ There is no reason to be rude. I asked a simple question.
None of it matters at this point. Quaky Daky wasn't going to stop until he beat the opposition into the ground.
As usual the U.N. was too late with too little. Odumbo once again showed his lack of leadership. Calling for Qaddafi removal over three weeks ago and then sat on his hands until France, Britain, and even the Arab states led the way. They could have still done the heavy lifting and a U.S. president could have led the coalition of nations to a quicker solution. Too bad we don't have a leader.
setter sperch would you prefer a john mc nuts and pea brain palin
name calling? really? Can you explain why this is either informative, or entertaining, or clever, or ???? Both of you, go to your rooms.
OK. What quicker solution can you come up with ?? We have a leader... Open you eye's and not your mouth. Ever hear of the term "support your country" which also includes the President. I smell another Conservative here...
I have heard that blind bats have a pretty good sense of smell.
You're slow witted. If we jumped in we'd foot the bill and lives for a war that is protecting Europe's resources. It's their responsibility. He's their mess more than ours.
By waiting for the UN to take initiative Obama made it their action more than ours. This way we can let Britain and France handle their own business on their payroll, not ours.
We can't afford to stomp around the earth dethroning every tinpot dictator we have nothing to do with. Why didn't Bush step in with the genocides in south Africa? Where were your ignorant temper tantrums then?
As if you or any of your like-minded Faux News-minded cohorts are more qualified to deal with world issues than the people we elected to do so. I'm so glad we have Obama and Senator Clinton dealing with issues like this instead of some of the pillars of ignorance on Newsvine.
Seattle James, Are you nots, or just crazy?
Obama did the right thing, and did it thoughtfully. Would you prefer he just take his gut instinct and attack Gaddafi on our own? As Dubya did to Iraq? Maybe it's difficult for you to understand the complexities of Libya. Maybe you prefer the cowboy approach, aka Bush. Maybe you are just plain ignorant, certainly your post is beyond ignorant.
the same people who think the US needs to stop Qaddafi are the same people that would root for Qaddafi if they had the tables turned against them selfs. Conservatives are the first to back peddle
Settersperch:
I smell a bigot and I am also getting whiff of tea. Why don't you move to Arizona or Alaska where the real MEN live and leave the posting to adults.
Dangerous
uhhh...America foots 22% of the U.N. upkeep, after we had to pound it down from 25% ...there are 192 nations in the U.N. , that means we are getting robbed ...the U.N. can kiss my ass ...it's still OUR money, nice try but fail
Take That Back...AZ and Alaska? That's where "real" men live? Don't you mean real butt kissers of the right? And if Palin is what passes for womanhood these days, it's explains a lot about why the Boomlets in this country are so messed up in the head their ideological angle is too obliquely right.
When someone in the US makes up names for the President of the US that sounds like something out of the mouth of a 6 year old, it tells me those good ole boys need to spend more on education and less on their KY bourbon, cigars and their cowboy hats.
Real men use their brains, not their zippers. Thus far all I've seen out of Republican men are loose zippers and stupidity.
Obama knows we are not so far away from the middle east right her in America. With People like Walker in WI, Snider in MI and those in IN and OH trying to take away the working people's rights and give huge tax breaks to the rich (KOCK's) and then telling the people there is a deficit where there were none and workers have to give back to pay for the tax breaks for the rich. While Gas, oil, food and everything else goes high and higher, while our wages get smaller and smaller. Americans have had enough and we aren't going to stand for this much longer. Most corp's in this country keep firing the workers or making them take pay cuts, while the top management take raises and bonuses. The people that don't work are taking from the ones that do work. There isn't a CEO in this world that is worth $ 14MIL a year plus his bonuses. And many of them ran there company's into the ground. GM, Home depot, HP, and the list goes on. GM CEO made $14 mil before bonuses, when it went bankrupt. That is being paid for failure. That is not what this country was founded on. The People on Walstreet get paid for loosing all your money. They get paid win lose or draw. But in all this the Rep's have found a way to make this all the fault of unions. There has to be some sort of fairness in all of this. And taking away from the working people of this country union or no union to give it to all those at the top that pretty much do nothing is wrong. Its time we all wake up and demand fairness. Fairness is what is good for America. American company's have stopped doing what is good for America and done what is good for them in the short run. And that is capitalism, and that is what is good for America. Wrong that is plain greed. How much does on man need to feel good about himself. The Koch bros. are worth near $ 50 billions but that is not enough. This wont stand, not for long. You can only push people so much and we have been cornered and we are going to come out swinging.
Chuck...I so agree. The biggest threat to democracy today is greed. It's the kind of evil that looks at all human life with a price tag attached. Think about what's really happening in the US today. You can't get out of bed without some tentacle of Big Insurance intruding in the quality of your life. You can't travel outside your home without Big Oil extorting more and more from those who are going broke. You live by the rules of an employer who pays you for your time and then takes more than half of what he pays you back so he doesn't have to pay for your healthcare or pension benefits. So..is your paycheck yours or his?
In his mind? It's his. Or will be the minute your kids are hungry or your wife is in the hospital.
Is this coincidence? Not on your life. Money is the most corruptible power on the planet. How much corruption are Americans willing to tolerate before we begin to demand that the laws in existence begin to snarl at those who believe the laws are ours and not theirs?
ewent:I was trying to be facetious. I know where the real men are. In my attempt to insult Palin and McCain, I insulted men everywhere. My apologies for any misunderstanding. -
Maybe Obama thinks involving us in another war will earn him another Nobel Peace Prize? Can someone contact him on vacation in Brazil to find out?
I am sick of this on vacation shyt!!!! He is in BRAZIL on a mission to finalize plans that will bring jobs HERE!! And if you had been watching you would have seen that Mr McCain has been spending a lot of time in and out of the Oval Office, as this was something he has been working on for quite sometime. BUT you won get that news from a certain news station because they CAN'T stand telling their viewers that the POTUS is working with the other side of the aisle to get things done. Sit on that and SPIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Obama is a typical liberal hypocrit. Obama was against the war in Iraq and one of Bush's harshest critics. When Bush attacked and eliminated an oil rich Arab dictator (Hussein) who murdered his own people in order to free the people of Iraq, then according to Obama it is the crime of the century. However, now its OK for Obama to attack and try to eliminate an oil rich Arab dictator (Gadhafi) who murders his own people because Obama says he is "proctecting the people" of Libya. Classic liberal hypocracy on display. Cannot help but LOL at this absurdity.
Obama has broken his promise on just about everything else too such as closing down Gitmo and shutting down military tribunal trials for terrorists. It's plain to see Obama cannot be trusted to do anything he says. He has no principle, no courage, no direction, no confidence, no moral compass, no competence, no leadership ability and most of all, no business being President. He is a weak, incompetent, party boy, and HE MUST GO. Thank God November 2012 is just arond the corner.
Ewent
send me your money...and your mom's too...sounds like you don't have a use for it...thanks
" and leave the posting to adults"...hahaha...do you know any?...are there any at your house?...just wondering
This situation brings up a point to ponder. The French are taking the lead on this (unbelievably!). They say they are not there to take sides but to restrict airspace. They encourage military action. They rebels and the government forces are hard to tell apart and sometimes they display the same flag. There will be militaries from several countries on the ground. With all this confusion, how in the hell are the French supposed to know who to surrender to?!
cute. :)
Great comment Tony.
I saw that joke coming from 7 years ago.
Of course the French are taking the lead....Sarkozy is a leader, Obama is not.
All this murder and mayhem could have been prevented if action had come sooner, Ghadafi is fighting for his life....he is guilty of everything. Imagine, how could someone like this remain a part of the world leadership for 40 years?
Tells you something about the world of politics, doesn't it?
Some years ago (after Sarkozy got in office?), France talked about taking a larger military role in NATO, and becoming sort of a military leader in Europe. I'm glad to see they're putting their money where their mouth is.
And people seem to forget that France was one of the world's greatest military powers for a few centuries until caving to Hitler.
Pudding... There's more to leadership than making stupid decisions and then moving forward to show people that you're 'the decider'... People like you pretend to be conservative while at the same time suggesting we dump untold $billions into another misadventure in the middle east. I think your real motivation here is just an excuse to criticize Obama. But it's you who look stupid. Obama's right to sit on the sidelines. He dosen't think we have to be the world's policeman or nanny. He dosen't think it's up to us to dethrone every dictator on the planet. I agree 100%. It's hard to watch as these brave revolutionaries in Libya fight for freedom, but it's not our fight. It's not for us to decide who rules Libya. We should do our part to enforce a no-fly zone to prevent Ghadaffi from bombing civilians if there's overwhelming support for such a mission. That's all. No troops.
Uh -ThaPyngwyn- I think you forgot about WW1 when the French had to be bailed out and maybe when Reagan bombed Daffy maybe the French should have let us fly over their nation huh? let them do it France hasnt been a power since 1792
Hey Joe- I Obama doesnt think we need to be the worlds nanny or the policeman then tell me why he thinks it is good for Americans? — Idiot......
1792? I guess we're not counting the French Empire? So maybe for the last hundred years or so, France has shown more yellow-belly than red-blood, but in any case, this is a perfect opportunity for them to step forward again. Libya is in their backyard, after all.
The French are in it for you know what! At least until they start taking casualties then their true colors will show, white and yellow!
But they will take any credit that is unearned at any time for any reason!
James, if you conservatives are all foaming at the mouth because you think America's become a nanny state (which is actually just right wing hyperbole), then why do think America should be nanny to the rest of the world and intervene in a civil war? idiots!
talk about a nanny state when you got a few wanna be sunday school teachers elected and they forbid the american people from a few things....
- I would rather the government play nanny and offer services that would help develop children to become world class students and good people. Than the government telling me what is Christian or not.
France has a lot at stake and by the U.S. waiting Europe has to get on the stick and stem what will be a major humanitarian crisis right across the Mediterranean Sea. That means lots more refugees and interruption of Oil services. And the last thing European trade wants is someone lobbing shots at freighters and cargo ships across the area.
France didn't surrender when they bottled up the British fleet and helped America win its independednce. France was one of the first countries to offer condolences after 9/11, and the headline on Le Monde read "We're all Americans", and they were 100% right about WMD in Iraq and did what any friend would do in that situation - try to take the keys from a drunk driver to keep from harming himself (in Bush's case, that's not figurative). What do we do? Change the name to Freedom Fries and still make lame jokes about surrender. Oh, Americans are so cute when they're clueless. Actually, scratch that - a lot of Americans are actually a-holes. Read enough of these boards and you'll find your share of Americans happy about the tragedy in Japan because of a 70-year old Pearl Harbor grudge.
rlwilko, what do you mean the us is waiting? didn't you see the pic of Hillary standing next to Sarkozy? the US and its NATO allies have been in constant communication since this began. They needed to get support for taking action from the Arab League, which they got.. the last thing we needed was for the US to jump into the middle of a civil war in the middle east like a stupid redneck in a bar fight.
Ghadafi won't dare take any action of any kind against NATO, other than running off at the mouth.
@ Anthony- I literally spit my coffee out I was laughing so hard! It's good to have a bit of levity considering the world is imploding, so thank you for that!
The WH keeps putting their foot in their mouth. Obama and Clinton ratcheted up the rhetoric with Gadhafi when they made it crystal clear that they want him out. However, now the WH doesn't want anybody to think they are leading the way into this war. It is a war since guns and fighter jets are involved and of course death and destruction following. Somebody just asked why the Arab league isn't leading instead of France, UK and the US. Good question. Egypt has said they won't lend their military. It is being rumored they are sending guns to the rebels.
Obama said this is a just decision. Bush said exactly the same thing.
If you think back SH used WMD on the Kurds which prompted the no-fly-zone for what seemed forever. SH remained and then there were his kids. Meanwhile he took care of any uprising by using torture like putting people feet first through chippers.
A no-fly-zone doesn't mean a regime change happens. Libya could very easily end up with the "family" taking over running the country with a no-fly-zone remaining for some time.
I agree with many military leaders that said the WH should NEVER, EVER have taken ground troops off the table when deciding to engage in yet another war. Clinton keeps saying the US is determined to see Gadhafi go, but no ground troops. Hmmmm. I don't think wars are that neat and tidy.
By waiting I mean we did not charge in but rather made sure the rest of the world actually gets in or at least tossed an opinion.
rlkwilldo...There were other reasons as well. Libya is an Arabic country. It was a hugely sensitive issue that we not appear to be trampling the rights of other Arabic sovereign nations like Saudi Arabia. If these countries are going to be in a state of revolution, they can do it of their own volition. But, if those in power begin to murder innocent children in their efforts to retain their control and power, that's the time the world has to step in to prevent genocide.
I have always known that the people of the Middle East were unhappy with the theocracies they lived in. Theocracy, not unlike plutocracy, limits human, civil and constitutional rights. What's happening in the Middle East was inevitable.
If blame is to be placed, look no further than the internet and social networks. That's really what created all the unrest. Middle Easterners are highly educated but they leave college with no jobs...sound familiar? You can't pump out college grads with no where to go and no future.
Many of the Middle Easterners living in theocracies began to realize there needs to be separation of church and state in order for them to have freedom of expression and other rights. Being dominated by vast wealth is bad. Being dominated by religious beliefs is far worse.
Why is France taking the lead? Because they get the majority of their OIL from Libya and are protecting their source. As for the majority of conflicts and wars, they are fought over national resources....pure and simple.
thapygwyn-1792? I guess we're not counting the French Empire? So maybe for the last hundred years or so, France has shown more yellow-belly than red-blood, but in any case, this is a perfect opportunity for them to step forward again. Libya is in their backyard, after all.
Check your history mate the French revolution in 1793 ended their "empire" or maybe you want to count Napoleon again losing to the British in early 1800's
joe mota - "No troops"
Its like watching a puppy wandering toward the freeway, you feel sad that he has no clue what is about to happen despite it's obviousness.
Good points Joe m, but the rabid right will stop at nothing to blame the president of ALL things they can paint with their negative brush. It`s like they all took an extended vacation . Totally forgetting how this country was ravaged by the republicans.
Obama is a typical liberal hypocrit. Obama was against the war in Iraq and one of Bush's harshest critics. When Bush attacked and eliminated an oil rich Arab dictator (Hussein) who murdered his own people in order to free the people of Iraq, then according to Obama it is the crime of the century. However, now its OK for Obama to attack and try to eliminate an oil rich Arab dictator (Gadhafi) who murders his own people because Obama says he is "proctecting the people" of Libya. Classic liberal hypocracy on display. Cannot help but LOL at this absurdity.
Obama has broken his promise on just about everything else too such as closing down Gitmo and shutting down military tribunal trials for terrorists. It's plain to see Obama cannot be trusted to do anything he says. He has no principle, no courage, no direction, no confidence, no moral compass, no competence, no leadership ability and most of all, no business being President. He is a weak, incompetent, party boy, and HE MUST GO. Thank God November 2012 is just arond the corner.
vive laFrance
Ok that made me laugh.
It is obvious we are on the right side of this fight as Gadhafi's government has been using violence against its own citizens from the start. The fact that this "government" has to reley on mercenaries to fight its battles shows the extreme inhumanity of its actions. My prayers go to the people of Libya. The pictures here on MSN show the absolute joy in the people of Libya's eyes when the UN sanctions were announced.
"absolute joy"? yeah, it's nice to know that you've got some relief coming once those 500 pound bombs start fallin' on your head! the saying, "think before you act" comes to mind here!
Kinda looks like their "absolute joy" when the Twin Towers came down, doesn't it?
BeaumontVegasBill...Kind of like marching into Iraq and blaming them for the Twin Towers coming down and then creating a war in the wrong country. How about some accountability or at best, owning up?
"How about some accountability or at best, owning up?"
So you agree that we have no business being in Libya?
Obama is a typical liberal hypocrit. Obama was against the war in Iraq and one of Bush's harshest critics. When Bush attacked and eliminated an oil rich Arab dictator (Hussein) who murdered his own people in order to free the people of Iraq, then according to Obama it is the crime of the century. However, now its OK for Obama to attack and try to eliminate an oil rich Arab dictator (Gadhafi) who murders his own people because Obama says he is "proctecting the people" of Libya. Classic liberal hypocracy on display. Cannot help but LOL at this absurdity.
Obama has broken his promise on just about everything else too such as closing down Gitmo and shutting down military tribunal trials for terrorists. It's plain to see Obama cannot be trusted to do anything he says. He has no principle, no courage, no direction, no confidence, no moral compass, no competence, no leadership ability and most of all, no business being President. He is a weak, incompetent, party boy, and HE MUST GO. Thank God November 2012 is just arond the corner.
There is something dramatically wrong with a country like the US, which would rather spend money and resources to bomb Libya, (Libya has oil) killing innocents, rather than take that same monies, resources and aid Japan (Japan does not have oil)!
The US Leaders have learned NOTHING, from the US invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan and the Arab world - nothing!
Why do they (the Arab world) hate us in the US? Because we in the US continually meddle in the Arab countries affairs.
How would the US like it if China sent military aid to those in the US who want to end Obama's reign?
The US should take care of their own nation, before trying to police the world!
The logic of bombing ones way to peace is wrong! Force has proven NEVER to be the way to win people over! Force does not work in the US and will not work in the Arab world.
The world must unite and stop this evil man from killing his own people. This man must pay for his crimes against humanity. This goes beyond just letting people deal with their own problems...don't you self-righteous and selfish americans that post hate and ignorance see that? If we turn a blind eye to this, we are committing a crime by not acting to do something. I can't believe some of the ignorance and hate posted on here...makes me feel sick in how some Americans are hardening their hearts towards others. Is nothing more important to you than watching your next football game, going out to eat at your next restaurant, entertaining yourself with video games and pleasure, that you can turn a blind eye to people going through hardship? What are we becoming as a people?
What is this guy smoking ???? I smell a foreigner..
There is no moral reason for getting into this war. Read history. War is an economic game.
You're exactly correct Nephi "The world must unite" Last time I checked we're involved up to our eyeballs in world humanitarian affairs, and we're certainly not the "world." So how about some other countries begin to pick up the slack. You definitely won't see Americans talking smack about the lucky candidates. You don't know Americans like you think you do.
Nephi - exact same thing could have been said for Saddam, but after he was taken out, a lot of the world forgot about that and turned on America.
NEPHI...Perhaps the crotches of Americans are so bruised from the folks they help kicking them in that they'd like to allow you folks to fix your own created & supported problems.
Nephi:
Didn't the countries of the Arab League agree on a no-fly-zone? Well, let them foot the bill, use their soldiers, and their planes... to stop the Gadhafi.
If the world wants us to be the police force them let them pay for it. and yes Nephi I would actually rather watch football. No one comes to our aid we help ourselves maybe you should try that
Nephi- all the voices of reason- say you are correct and the above dribble are obamabots- pay no mind. The only truth here is the US involvement would be purely economic driven. Obama doesnt believe in the right to be free, take a look at his actions inside of our country. There is no moral or ethical action on his part, ever and as such the country is paralyzed. Take a look at the above comments- so I proved it.
Ironically- while the Jack bumps are spouting off about France- remember who it was that came to the support of the colonists in a revolution awhile back. If it wasnt for them there would be a different America today. We paid that debt back at Normandy and Omaha beaches.
For America, sadly - this is just once again - no ability to make the right decision or for that matter - any decision at the right time...
Pathetic....
I agree with Nephi...
The reason everyone hates us after we help them with their war is because we overtake and make it our war and make them do everything our way, and try to turn them all into good little American girls and boys. This is Libya's war, we need to help them achieve freedom, not take over their country!
The U.S. said that we would not take unilateral action for a no fly zone, that the international community had to step up and they did. Thus begins a new era.
Like mom said, "Don't bite off more than you can chew and then chew it thoroughly so you can DIGEST it!"
I hope we don't end up bitting off so much we can't chew. I know thw American people will have problems digesting it!
SeattleJames...Obamabots? More words made up by 6 year old minds with 35 year old mouths? How do you or anyone know what Obama thinks? Narrow minds are too closed to ever figure out why they hate, much less what anyone else is thinking.
When you or any other right winger can do the job President Obama is doing. Talk. Till then, it's all armchair right wing narrow mindedness no one but the right can believe in.
Touché ewent, touché ...
GI Joe...It's only touche if I repeat what was posted. Yeesh...the right wing just can't face it when they lose. Or when they are obtuse.
Very true. Can we interrupt his vacation in Brazil for an explanation?
Obama is a typical liberal hypocrit. Obama was against the war in Iraq and one of Bush's harshest critics. When Bush attacked and eliminated an oil rich Arab dictator (Hussein) who murdered his own people in order to free the people of Iraq, then according to Obama it is the crime of the century. However, now its OK for Obama to attack and try to eliminate an oil rich Arab dictator (Gadhafi) who murders his own people because Obama says he is "proctecting the people" of Libya. Classic liberal hypocracy on display. Cannot help but LOL at this absurdity.
Obama has broken his promise on just about everything else too such as closing down Gitmo and shutting down military tribunal trials for terrorists. It's plain to see Obama cannot be trusted to do anything he says. He has no principle, no courage, no direction, no confidence, no moral compass, no competence, no leadership ability and most of all, no business being President. He is a weak, incompetent, party boy, and HE MUST GO. Thank God November 2012 is just arond the corner.
Radical changes in world politics leave America with a heightened responsibility to be, for the world, an example of a genuinely free, democratic, just and humane society. (Pope John Paul II)
What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy? (Mahatma Gandhi)
Our defense is in the preservation of the spirit which prizes liberty as a heritage of all men, in all lands, everywhere. Destroy this spirit and you have planted the seeds of despotism around your own doors. (Abraham Lincoln)
Three wise men, three very wise sayings. What we are trying to accomplish here is the blending of the three in a consensus.
If BO would've stepped up his support of the no-fly zone a tad earlier it might not have gotten to this point. His inability to make a decisive move has added to this problem, I know he didn't create this problem but he isn't helping either.
I agree we don't need to charge in there and start kickin' a** but just a show of support for the people that are trying to overturn Qaddafi would've gone a long way, even if it was from a Jell-o spined President like BO.
It's embarassing we're taking a backseat to France.
CC is there anything that the obstructionist repulickan party don't complain about. with you, BO is damned if he does and damned if he does'nt . You party needs to GROW UP.
I'm with you on this one. All mouth and no action. The Bahnor boy's again.
He's helping a whole hell of a lot more than you pal.
Garunteed.
how is he helping out by being in Brasil getting a bikini wax so he can run along the beach in a g string
it is typical that we are taking a back seat- look at the administartions record to date- all we do is go backwards..Paralyzed.
They had a chance to lead and didnt do it. touchy feely BS- passive decisions- poor judgement- no leadership.
thats a Big "F" in my book- oh thats right we dont have "F" anymore.. We have a seriously needs improvement- doesnt get it grade....
Pathetic.
James, your book is all 'R's ... a partisan republican. No matter what idiots take over the republican party, no matter what stupid policies they pursue, you'll continue voting for Republicans. Thankfully, people like you, and your counterparts who only vote for democrats, are a minority. Independents decide elections. The brain dead partisan followers only make noise and wave flags.
hey really livin... Obstructionists?
If you mean rejecting the notion that I must give up my rights to freedom so I can be free? OK.
If you mean calling BS on paying the Visa bill with the Mastercard? Ok
If you mean fighting the raising of taxes on anyone so he can feed the mongruls that wont take care of themselves? OK
If you mean rejecting any infringment on my right to do exactly what is happening in Libya here in America? OK.
If you mean stopping the spend thrift idiots plan to spend our childrens wages? Ok.
if you mean not supporting your commune city life,"cant we all just get along" policies? OK
You all seem to forget that their are people who , when unencumbered by a socialist agenda have the ability to take care of themselves and that their resistive efforts to your policies are for the greater good. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. we are talking about needs not wants or desires or wishes.
Joe- i think you have missed the Point here- I'm not a republican- I do vote independant. I'm not brain dead by any means- I have a successful manufacturing company, with over 250 families I am responsible for and no union. I make my own decisions and pay my bills. I have funded the company with virtually every dime I have ever made. I started with nothing but a couple friends and I resent the hell out of politicians. Contrary to your opinion of independants deciding national votes... you are dead wrong. 9 major cites and 8 states decide .... obviously you dont know how the polical system works in america....
Typical republicans think its wrong for Britian and France to use their fighters instead of the US....
I am a Republican and I say go for it and as an ex-soldier I also say I am glad to not to be a part of it.
James, you must be too busy working to read the news... you accuse the Obama admin of going backwards, as if we're paralyzed? You must now know that when Obama was inaugurated the economy was shrinking at about 5% per year and now it's expanding at about 3%. That's an 8% turn around in GDP. Hardly backwards. I won't bore you with a stack of other economic statistics that tell us how much our economy has improved over the past 2 years.
On Libya, are you one of those who think Obama should have bombed Tripoli and invaded as soon as the civil war began? Obama was right to show restraint. We now have Arab League approval for a no fly zone and French planes enforcing it. Would you rather have the US spending $billions to push itself into another war?
CupofCoffee...Don't you mean "MY way or the Highway" Republicans being all too silent about stepping up to the plate? The Texas Rodeo is over. It's left for Crawford. No more swagger swagger boom boom to deal with from political Harvard MBA twits in 10-gallon hats that can't even see a Global Financial Meltdown after 8 years. No more marching off into sovereign nations guns blazing and playing shoot 'em up just to prove male ego.
Don't Republicans ever get tired of showing butt? Or, is that the only way they can make any sense?
To lead people, walk beside them... As for the best leaders, the people do not notice their existence. The next best, the people honor and praise. The next, the people fear; and the next, the people hate... When the best leader's work is done the people say, 'We did it ourselves!' (Lao Tzu)
Throughout my working life I've striven to apply the best of the above quote. Just as G.W. Bush was tagged "The Decider": Obama should be tagged "The Listener". He hears what his advisers say, looks to the situation at hand, sees the end game THEN ACTS. There is nothing wrong with reason; if there is any condemnation it should be applied to those who have hemmed and hawed before seeing the necessity of involvement.
The Nation condemned G.W. Bush for his invasion of Iraq without the support of the United Nations; NOW they are condemning Obama because he had the temerity to do just as the public wanted.
Really? So, after 35 years, we finally get to put a bullseye on this guy! Yes, I know he's been in power for 42 years but, it was in '76 when we first identified these guys as supporters of international terrorism. No need to go through all of that again. So now, because he's attacked "civilians" we, and the international community, are gonna do sumpin? Last I checked, he's not the only dictator in town in that area. Last I checked, there are five other countries in that area who are also attacking and killing "civilians" who are protesting against their existing government and there's another country exporting combat troops to support the government crackdown in one of those countries. I use "civilians" like this because, according to our current ROI, if you're in civilian clothing and carrying an AK, you stop being a "civilian". Women and children getting killed? Don't even start that crap because we've turned our back so many times on genocide in this same neighborhood that it's too hard to count!
And, in what has to big the biggest irony of all, it's the French screaming loudest about doing something! Safe to say that's because they are being hardest hit by all of this since 61% of their oil imports come from Libya.
Look, I'm a professional soldier and am all for a good fight but, let's be real. I think that it's wonderful that the citizens of a country long for freedom and are willing to do something about it. Freedom, when speaking in terms of a nation, is born in blood. Always has been and always will be. When you are put in a position of fighting for something you long for, the victory, when it's achieved, is ever more sweeter than when it's simply handed to you. So, people of Libya, we support you and cheer you on but you need to get a little more mad, a little more creative, and a little more resolute in your fight before you come crying to us to do your fighting for you! We are the one's who's nightclub you bombed, who's citizens you killed and cheered about when you brought that airliner down and, the one's who are the targets of the terrorists who train in the camps that you support by trading with and supplying food to. So, good luck and we'll check in with ya later!
Obama should maybe check with his constituents before he goes around promising and threatening military action to intervene in another countries internal affairs.
Must have watched FIXNEWS last night. I smell another right winger....
Like they all did?
thurston, as I recall, Bush did and Congress backed him all the way. You have been listening to too many of these politicians trying to spin their way out of how they voted.
Hehe listen to Beaumont with his revisionist history.
No Bill, around half of us constituents weren't protesting Bush's actions every step of the way. What country were you in then? I was in America and I heard plenty of dissent and dissatisfaction over it. Just because your war criminal ex-President lied to steamroll over Congress doesn't mean everyone agreed with it fool.
Dangerous - have you forgotten what form of government we have?? Only thing you can really say is that your representatives that you sent to Washington did not represent you in the manner in which you wanted. It would be so nice if all the "flowery" adjectives were dropped - I find that people who resort to name calling really can't win a debate - no substance!
thurston, Saddam's own generals thought that he had WMD. I would just love to see the proof that Bush knew that there were no WMD and lied to the world. I really do not believe Colin Powell would have presented the case that he did to the UN if he did not believe in what he did. And yes, I was in this country at that time and I heard the exact opposite what you heard - I think I have probably been in this country a lot longer than you young whippersnappers have been - I am pre Boomer so respect your elders!!!
Beaumont, Bush believed the stories about WMD. Bush's problem was that he was too dim-witted and/or arrogant to understand that the sources of information need to be thoroughly understood before giving it credence. Congress authorized the use of force in order to pressure Sadaam into allowing the weapons inspectors to finish their work. Congress did not declare war. I actually agreed with the use of force resolution, never in my wildest dreams suspecting Bush would actually give the order to invade. There was no compelling reason for Bush to pull the trigger when he did. Waiting an additional 6 months or 6 years would not have made one tiny bit of difference regarding Sadaam's ability to threaten our security. It would, howver, have saved well over $1 trillion, saved nearly 5,000 American lives, restrained the spike in oil prices, and weakened Al-Qaida's recruiting arguments.
Beau be real....in the summer of 2002 Philip Giraldi-ex CIA-and others were telling the world that this was bogus intell pushed by Iraqi exiles and Israelis..Don't be a fool..Bush wouldn't lie? He lied to you when he told you 19 "Muslim hijackers" turned off 4 transponders on 4 aircraft ( something that takes multiple classified access codes ) and controlled demolitioned 3 towers in lower Manhattan! Wouldn't lie us? Are you kidding? These people work for a Satanic cult that really does "hate our freedoms"..He lied to you when he told you a 767 flew into the Pentagon and left no wreckage of a 767? What naivete!
Hello everyone this isn't about Bush, this is about obama. If Bush was in on this, we would have bombed the crap out of the place before now- Fact. This country is so polerized- what happend to the right decision at the right time leaders? thats right they left..
Blindbat, must have been watching MSNBC, Maddow, Maher, the HP, NBC, ect..smell a liberal progressive here!!!
all conservatives are special in gods eyes, your just plain stupid in ours
Beaumont...We elect the people we expect to do the will of the people...not the will of Corporate America or the military industrialists. Bush threw Rice to the wolves and made her take the blame for his so-called "misinformation" about those WMDs and the excuse for going into Iraq. Meanwhile, Herr Cheney of the Perpetual Scowl Face squeaked away without a shred of guilt for his part. Guess when you dump your accountability on everyone around you and then pick up your skirts and high tail it to a DC bunker when terrorists attack what can any of us expect from "elected officials" you elected to do their jobs?
dangerous - "I was in America and I heard plenty of dissent and dissatisfaction over it."
Really? And where were you and what did you hear when Obama was pushing Obamacare?
Obama is a typical liberal hypocrit. Obama was against the war in Iraq and one of Bush's harshest critics. When Bush attacked and eliminated an oil rich Arab dictator (Hussein) who murdered his own people in order to free the people of Iraq, then according to Obama it is the crime of the century. However, now its OK for Obama to attack and try to eliminate an oil rich Arab dictator (Gadhafi) who murders his own people because Obama says he is "proctecting the people" of Libya. Classic liberal hypocracy on display. Cannot help but LOL at this absurdity.
Obama has broken his promise on just about everything else too such as closing down Gitmo and shutting down military tribunal trials for terrorists. It's plain to see Obama cannot be trusted to do anything he says. He has no principle, no courage, no direction, no confidence, no moral compass, no competence, no leadership ability and most of all, no business being President. He is a weak, incompetent, party boy, and HE MUST GO. Thank God November 2012 is just arond the corner.
Alan, how many times do you intend to use the same pile of peat bog rhetoric as what you've posted here. This has got to be the fourth time I've read it in this sitting....... AT LEAST FOUR! You're beginning to sound like a political ad campaign gone sour (maybe that isn't too far off base, is it?)
Barack Obama is a coward. He will only talk and never act. He doesn't understand politics, he is totally incompetent, and the US will deteriorate rapidly as long as he remains as our president. There is no hope for America's regaining her world leadership position as long as Obama continues his chaotic approach to world interactions. Hell, he can't even give a decent speech anymore.
Get off this @!$%# and stick to the point of conversation at hand, or have you lost your train of thought. Get a life and the fact's stright..
I'm so glad we have Obama in charge and not some backwoods yokel like you.
my border collie has more leadership skills than obama has
I did not vote for Obama nor do I agree with 90% of the insane liberal agenda but I do agree with Obama not getting us involved and I hope it stays that way
All border collies have great leadership skills. They are the smartest dogs in the world, IMO
Woof, Woof!
Coward? It doesn't take "courage" to send other people's sons off to die so we can build the TAPI pipeline across Afghanistan..or re-start opium production so the CIA can re-partner w/drug lords there ( it's good to have a partner who can supply you w/arms and call in an airstrike on your rival ). Or to ensure Israeli security by decimating the nation of Iraq...or to try and get the Anglo-American oil co's back into Iraq..so "defense" and mercenary and "reconstruction" co's can make a pile of loot headquartered in the "green" ( $$$) zone...If you don't know by now that 9-11 was a Mossad/Mossad asset/rogue-I hope rogue-CIA job then you've had no curiosity over the last 9 1/2 yrs.
We are losing in Pakistan and Afghanistan. These are Obama's wars now, which we are losing, because Obama is a coward, not a leader. I would rather he get out now than continue to let our soldiers die for such useless causes. If he wasn't a coward, he would have them out by now. His miserable politics dictate no to this. And one thing for sure, if Obama had been president on 9/11, his response would have been more cowardly than Bill Clinton's.
mikelihnj, Obama's relying heavily on Petreaus. You must think Petraeus is a coward, too. You probably though Bush was brave because he started 2 brand new wars. You probably like McCain who, had he won, would now be sending wave after wave of young Americans ashore to die at the hands of united Libyans defending their country against foreign invaders. Is that your idea of bravery?
mikelihnj...Now now...Envy is one of the 7 deadly ....being so envious of this highly accomplished president won't make up for the lunkhead you people voted for twice. And if you are trying to impress upon us all how wonderful it would have been if McCain and not President Obama had won, how long do you think McCain would have lasted with the mess Bush left behind?
Oh for the glory days of Clintonomics...when everyone had jobs, the economy was doing fine and war was at a minimum. And all it took was one swaggering Texas fool to overturn all that prosperity. But, with Republicans, prosperity is a monolithic, one-sided issue...theirs.
Petreaus cannot win with a moron and a coward as his commander-in-chief. Our brave soldiers have one hand tied behind their backs because Obama has no strategy for them to follow. They get paid $22,000 per year while our Congressmen make $175,000 annually, twice that with benefits. So, our Congress is also a f**k**g joke, and criminals at that. All you people have is the blame game. It's all Bush's fault. Well, that might be true, but Obama is our president now, and he is worthless and a coward. And I don't believe in the "what-if" game. It doesn't matter one whit what McCain would have done. And the glory days of "Clinton" were not glory days; they were days of pain and agony. Why don't you people just face the facts. America is a nation in decline. We can't live in the past and the future is as dismal as hell.
mikelnj...Such hatred for this president and government...maybe North Korea is more to your liking? I'm sure misery loves company and the misery party over in North Korea is endless. Right up the allies of most miserables of the right.
Yes. I was far better off when Clinton was president. America is not in a state of decline. People my age won't allow it to go into decline. The boomlets need to get off their 30-50 year old duffs and take up the reins. Mommy and Dada can't do it for you guys forever.
President Clinton didn't have the wide disparity Bush created between rich and poor. That only happens when you hand out 2 bailouts in 8 years that make 1% 11% richer.
Your generation has to move butt if you don't like what's happening. And, that doesn't mean taking what you want from everyone around you so you don't have to work those overindulged rumps off.
I'm sick of the overindulgences, the excuses and the constant doom and gloom of the boomlet generation. The world around you won't improve until you stop the texting and all of the gaming and move away from that cyber world of twerps. You can't be productive doing the Thorazine shuffle.
Whose texting? From what generation am I a representitive? Maybe what we're talking about is degeneration. I despise North Korea. I am not "of the right". You don't know anything about me, you mindless left wing nut. And if you think America is not in decline, you haven't read the news, watched television, or lived in the world. You are in denial because you want the Clinton days to come again. Well, I don't and they never will. One thing I know. Your grandchildren and the next generation will have it far worse than the previous ones, and it is all because of one man, our president, who gained the office by deceit and governs the same way. The world will never improve. Have you never heard of the second law of thermodynamics. I am just living out the philosophy created by the past, the philosophy of pragmatism and existentialism. Existence preceeds essence, and even though we do exist, our essence simply stinks.
mikelnj..."you left wing nut"...Sage advice from an old lady...I know when someone resorts to name calling their desperation at trying to prove their point is lost. This president, Barack Obama, was elected by a majority rule. 52% of the population to be exact. Read your Constitution. I am not in denial. My pocket book and savings account was far more flush when Clinton was president. I would love nothing more than a return to Clintonomics. Having lived through gas rationing of the Reaganomic days, the Recession of Reagan, Nixon and Bush 41's presidencies...do give us the right wing gospel of why always when a Republican takes office, it only takes 12 months before the recessions begin, the unemployment increases and the Middle Class take the hit so McMommy and McDaddah's little Mckiddies can live large?
Facts you won't admit but I will not allow a recidivist lack of accountability for: GAO records showed an 11% increase in the prosperity of 1% of the population in 2005. The DOL showed 8 million Americans lost jobs by 2008...Whose fault was that? Obama's?
Oh poor poor little McGrandies...they actually might have to break a sweat and work like their grandparents did for 6 decades of their lives. Sorry if we can't offer the grandies a lifetime of luxury and idle time to party, text and spend their time bashing everyone else but themselves.
I'm unimpressed by thermodynamics...must be that PhD (Piled High and Deep) I worked with who taught me that bookworms ALL bar none trip over a 5 foot wide hole in the ground and only notice the inchworms crawling up their arms.
You can bash this country right, left and center. But the fact remains that the Boomlets have to start working butts off like McMommy and McDaddy had to. Sorry if that's the way life is. Existence means self-reliance and the inalienable self-discipline to accomplish. Not self-importance and self-indulgence.
Sorry, I find the boomlets are all mouth and no work. You don't know me either. I'm a proud product of those who took it to the streets when we saw what we knew was wrong. We were unafraid of breaking with traditions that meant "children were to be seen but not heard".
Most of us today earned the right to enjoy what little retirement there will be. We will not now nor ever allow boomlets to sit back and enjoy their lives while we bust our butts so they can live large. We learned to live within our means. Now, it's your turn.
Hahahaha ... honestly, go see a doctor, it is obvious you have some hidden issues in why you think Obama is too blame for all that is wrong in this country and his politics are is only half the picture ...
GI Joe...Obama can't walk on water, heal the lame, blind or deaf. Apparently, that's a given when you vote for the presidency these days. Or else, it's something that the right wing feels should be.
I am 100% behind this president. For all the most important reasons. IMO? The right hates him because he is so squeaky clean they can't pin a single thing on him and make it stick.
I gave Bush a fair shot. I was a Republican. Thanks to what I saw during the Bush years, I vote for the candidate I believe has the most to offer Middle Class Americans.
The longer the blog, the more useless it is. Fact is, Obama is incompetent to be president, he is a big time coward, he is not a leader, our Congress is a f**k**ing joke, and the far left is living in a fantasy la-la land. You are not better off now than you were and your comments are useless.
I am furious with our President. The delay is unconscionable and the rebels are being slaughtered. Obama should have taken this decision a long time ago.
Tactically speaking, Ghadafi's forces would have been a better target when they were still outside the cities. Now they will mix in, we will have great difficulty figuring out what to hit and who is who. I understand the rationale behind wanting the international community to join us, but now this desire for "diplomatic cover" will cost the lives of many people. Shame on us.
you honestly feel that if we stepped up there would not have been more killing? They will be killing each other long after we pull the plug. It has been going on since the beginning of time. the rebels when all is said and done still despise westerners, it is how they are raised. Would you personally help somebody whe despised you? They are never going to change, take the whole @!$%# pot and keep the oil.
Lets let these "rag heads" fight amongst themselves and may the man with the most marbles win...
Shame on you and the Fixed News parrots jumping on this (like every other event) as an excuse to criticize a president who is light years ahead of anything you have to offer for leadership.
The rebels have bitten off more than they can chew and are being beaten back by a more powerful force. The rebels chose this fight not us. This sounds to me like a scrawny drunk in a bar picking a fight with a 7 foot body building boxer and expecting his buddies to save him when the big guy pounds his head to the floor. American should not attempt to be the equalizer in every disturbance in the world. Of course we should voice our displeasure if inhumane actions are used against Innocent civilians. I don't believe we belong in this fight at this time.
Eddie. Why should we be fighting the rebels battle? As I've said before if there were an insurrection in this country would our government stand by idlily and allow a foreign force to come in an assist the rebels. I think not. Don't believe for one minute that France, Britian or our interest is the people of Libya, its the oil. Even if the United Nations does support the "people" who is going to pay for the services they provide? How do you distinguish between a combatant and a non combatant in a hostile battle? Been there. Its not pretty. If France and Britian want to enter the fray let them but keep our assets and resources out of the battle.
EddieFlorida (#13) - sadly I can only agree.
The UN resolution was late, but maybe it took THAT long to cobbel together sufficient support. But someone should have had their aircraft in Libyan airspace within hours of the resolution passing, not days!
Al-Quaeda is a MI-6/CIA operation using Middle Eastern assets..so they can put patsies in place..much like Oswald..The "19" were trainging for the war games that day ( or so they thought ) at places like Gunther AFB, Brooks AFB, NAS Pensacola..a few spent the weekend before on Jack Abramoff's boat...Atta had some strange "friends" for a jet-set Jihadi boy...
Bill, you are 'truely delusional' and need some serious medication! You'll get better with some meds and stop reading all the 'conspiracy novels'!
Bill, you need some fresh air or something......
Bill sounds like Alex Jones has been whispering meaningless bs in his ear while they cuddled at night.
dangerous - "an excuse to criticize a president who is light years ahead of anything you have to offer for leadership."
What planet do you live on? Even the Dems have been begging Obama for leadership for the past year. He can't, or won't, even follow his own commissions plans.
"CBO: Obama understates deficits by $2.3 trillion"
"Just on Friday, 64 senators — 32 in each party — signed a letter to Obama calling on him to take the lead in coming up with a comprehensive deficit reduction plan along the lines of a plan issued last year by his own deficit commission."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42154734/ns/politics/
Obama is a typical liberal hypocrit. Obama was against the war in Iraq and one of Bush's harshest critics. When Bush attacked and eliminated an oil rich Arab dictator (Hussein) who murdered his own people in order to free the people of Iraq, then according to Obama it is the crime of the century. However, now its OK for Obama to attack and try to eliminate an oil rich Arab dictator (Gadhafi) who murders his own people because Obama says he is "proctecting the people" of Libya. Classic liberal hypocracy on display. Cannot help but LOL at this absurdity.
Obama has broken his promise on just about everything else too such as closing down Gitmo and shutting down military tribunal trials for terrorists. It's plain to see Obama cannot be trusted to do anything he says. He has no principle, no courage, no direction, no confidence, no moral compass, no competence, no leadership ability and most of all, no business being President. He is a weak, incompetent, party boy, and HE MUST GO. Thank God November 2012 is just arond the corner.
Can I make a suggestion (which will likely prove equally unpalatable to all sides)? How about this as a basis for any major future actions by our government: That said action be considered from, and presented to, the American people as necessary to further our own interests before all other considerations, and that should the proposed actions then fail to accomplish the stated goals, those responsible will fall on their swords. Before the whining starts, I'd like to point out that we have undertaken misadventures for motives both humanitarian and mercenary (and overwhelmingly emotional), and little has turned out as planned/promised. I can accept that this is partially due to the complexities of the world in which we live, and that in the midst of such complexity, it can be difficult to accurately gauge outcomes, but I'd frankly be more inclined to view what I've just stated as an easily-invoked smokescreen for malfeasance of all sorts.
I also begrudgingly accept that we are all cogs in a huge machine of empire, and that all delusions of democracy have now outlived their usefulness. The moving parts of this machine need to be oiled and maintained from time to time, or the machine will fall apart. If that's not the goal, then something needs to change.
They same people who are saying we should butt completely out were probably like the ones who said Hitler was Europe's problem.
Yeah Wally.
Because Ghadafi is anywhere near close to Hitler.
What do you own defense stock or something, to be cheerleading for this stuff?
If you believe looney Gadhafi will rise as powerful and dangerous as Hitler...... what are you smoking?
Going to war is not free if you haven't received the memo.
Yeah, the same people who pushed us into WW II gave the Soviets 1/2 of Europe, killed 1.7 million Germans AFTER the war was over, kept German POWs in open air containment w/little food and no shelter.firebombed German cities that had no military value...prevented the Japanese fm defeating the Communists in China, turned the Japanese and British ( really natural allies against communism ) into enemies resulting in the loss of Singapore...Enough w/the obsolete WW II template for everything...enough with the WW II as holy war crap..
your WW11 history is twisted and Palinized.... this is why we need education
Dustin77
"Palinized" ! ! ! That, my friend, is a classic. Mind if I use it?
Wally I'm almost 100 per cent sure they are not the same people...but some of them may be still alive but I'm sure they'd be in their 90's or older.
Our troops will be sent in to battle while the rest of the world holds our coat...again.
Fast ede is right. hold our coat and then try to rip it off of us. same ol same ol
Have I missed something here ? Where are our neighbor's (Canada) on this ? These people NEVER want to get involved in anything. Although they will give refuge to draft dodger's and what ever "trash" goes North.
Maybe you should check to see how many Canadians have fought and been wounded and killed in American adventures before you run off your mouth.
Did you miss that the UK and France are putting up military and not us so far?
They're the ones who get the majority of their oil from there. Let them pick up the slack IMO.
BlindBat---I was in the military during the Nam Era, (Navy), and my brother served in Nam. We never held anything against those who fled to Canada. That, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc are immoral wars that shouldn't have been fought by Americans. 58,000 + died for no good reason. Imperialism. Please note that "American Eagle" and other retailers sell clothing made in Vietnam. Now, that is irony.
The next time that the politicians call for a ground war I hope the nation's youth will tell them to fu** off.
sandtrich...The politicans call for war when the military industry's profits are at low tide. Look at how the defense budget exploded from 2000 to 2008. In the trillions.
Most of the Viet Nam vets today know that we wanted to bring you guys back home. That's why we were opposed to that war. Our protests here had nothing to do with our military. There may have been some idiots who took that position and were abusive to the returning vets.
But in my recollection, my junior year in high school meant saying goodbye forever to the senior boys who were going to be drafted and shipped to Cambodia, Laos and then to their doom in Viet Nam. In '64, senior classmates all knew what a sudden outburst of tears meant. Another of our guys was gone.
ewent--Thanks for a meaningful post. It was thoughtful and born of truth.
By the time the world gets around to actually acting on a no fly zone the rebelion will be over and Gadhafi will have won.
Um... so? The world has been doing fine before the rebellion. Only when the rebellion started and gas priced jumped 40 cents in a few weeks, then the world actually cared.
hampster, we're not the world's policman. the rebellion in Lybia is for Lybians to decide... If Ghaddafi has enough support from enough of the Lybian population, he will survive. We do not get to pick the winners and losers in civil wars. Obama's demand that atrocities against civilian populations be stopped, and his support for the no-fly zone is as far as we as a nation should go. It's a civil war between opposing tribes in the middle east.... you seriously think the US should try to control the outcome?
had enough...Did it ever occur to you that all of those price increases in oil are a ruse set up by Big Oil to jack more profits their way? You can't possibly believe Big Oil won't latch onto any excuse to jack prices can you? This is the same BS they pulled in 2009..Then it was "coldest winters ever"..oh really? And how do you explain how Big Oil which also owns the lions share of natural gas companies in the US has had 3 increases in their pricing in less than 2 years all the while American Natural Gas and half the world claims natural gas supplies are overflowing?
Big Oil is nothing more than a legalized extortionist scam. They can and do use any excuse they can to jack prices. It's time for this government to clamp down on these increases. They are no longer sustainable for working class Americans. It isn't my job to exist so some jackass in Big Oil can make billions in profit while seniors on fixed incomes choose between heat in winter, their medications or their food. Big Oil is a slime ball industry that has gotten away with all manner of extortion for decades.
They are losing ground and they know it. Too many people are opting for economy vehicles, hybrids and heating their homes with alternative energy that Big Oil has thwarted the use of for years. They continue to present the argument that alternative doesn't work. That's just more Big Oil BS. BS being their other biggest product.
All I can say was the pilot had better have been a Rebel, otherwise he would have been better off going down with the ship.
There's no excuse for anyone nowadays to not know what's going on in Libya. If it wasn't for social networking the realities of life in Libya wouldn't have come to light.
Breaking News:American military attacks innocent American protesters!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
Gadhafi understands the west better then the west understands him. People view him as a crazy man but he's crazy like a fox. While western governments have stood on the sidelines throwing idle threats at him he has been methodically consolidating his positions relative to the rebel forces. When he wasn't dealt with militarily following the Lockerbie bombing he realized that his method for dealing with the west would work. he's been playing us like a violin for years. After listening to an interview with his oldest son it was clear that they weren't going to just hand over power to the citizens of Libya.
This is just another civil war over in the middle east that we'll get involved in and in the course of ousting Gadhafi we will as always happens spill some innocent blood and be pilloried by the people we claim we were trying to protect. We will establish ROE's that will give an unscrupulous dictator a decided advantage and as we normally do we'll screw the pooch he'll still be there after the dust settles and the middle east will be more unstable then it was before.
The rebels can't expect any assistance from their Arab neighbors because they don't want this crap spreading into their own countries. So it's left up to the oil hungry nations in the west to take care of it.
We should never get involved in a civil war on the opposite side of a genocidal dictator because we are not prepared to brutally defeat him.
Baby, you said a mouthful.
you got that right, Johnny. the only way for us to control the situation would be a massive invasion and takeover, which would be followed by years of insurrection as Ghaddafi's tribe resists the foreign invaders. Obama's call for hands off is the right one. Civil war is ugly, but we can't stop it from happening by jumping into the middle of it.
Voting in the House of Representatives defeated a resolution to withdraw from Afghanistan at the end of this year, 321-93. Our warmonger Congress seems to have the idea that we want another 10 years of the Afghanistan invasion. Meanwhile, on the home front more and more of us are sinking into poverty and local taxes are going up. More war = More poverty for Americans. Our own government has become our worst enemy. Soon we will have another country receiving those pallets of cash that the military can't account for. And, of course, we will build some more billion dollar embassies, etc.
word.
I'm with you, if we stopped spending a $100 billion a year in Afghanistan that would make the $1,600,000,000,000.00 dollar Obama deficit shrink by nearly 6.5%.
Now if we could find another 93.5% in savings.
At least the Soviet Union wised up after 9 yrs in Afghanistan. We are in our 10th yr over there and still haven't figured it out?
I still want to know what happened to the billions on those pallets that disappeared into Iraq. Largest transfer of cash in American history and nobody knows where it went, really?
It is much easier to say where it didn't go don't you think?
Rich, we know those $billions didn't go toward improving education, research and development, alternative (to oil) energy, putting cops on the streets, welfare-to-work, etc, etc, etc.... all those programs that liberals love. It went to lining the pockets of corrupt politicians and their well-connected buddies, which is what conservatives seem to love.
Shhhh! That's a subject to dangerous to discuss here. :)
here goes joe- spouting off again about conservatives.... Did you lose your home or job or something and acorn wont help you?
Funny thing is the political affiliations of the bad decision makers
There was an article at www.blacklistednews.com that addes up all related DOD spending and foreign military aid ( Israhell ) and it came to 1.2 trillion...go to www.veteranstoday.com and www.thetruthseeker.co.uk also www.rediscover911.com and www.maskofzion.com Find out what's going on..
James, the absolute stupidest descision made by anyone in the past 40 years was W Bush's decision to start the Iraq invasion. No question. the political affiliation was republican.
Crusher...If your local taxes are going up, maybe it's because your governor is a Bush-Republican like mine in NJ? When you have a state governor who only goes after the opposition, ignores that you can't draw from an empty well and continues to pander to the rich despite the fact that it's doing absolutely no good, your local taxes will rise.
NJ's Republican governor will be a one termer. He has the right ideas with the wrong implementations. You can't ask the masses of Middle Class workers to make "sacrifices" while the rich feel no pain whatever. You don't ask the Middle Class to tighten their belts while you allow the rich to loosen theirs from their excesses and overindulgences.
How is that in any way sustainable? What the Republicans can't figure out is that Bush decimated labor in this country in a way that isn't going to be repaired any time too soon. If you have more than half the population unemployed because jobs are not created and businesses are hoarding their profits and refusing to hire Americans, how is that going to move an economy?
What's unsustainable for the future are constant rising taxes and constant increases in basic necessities. The bubble is about to burst but Republicans think they can glue it back together with spit and Middle Class sweat.
Isn't that picture of the jet fighter in flames wild? It's like from the old GI Joe cartoon with the pilot bailing out at the last second. That photographer got that by a second.
How about scary old lady firing the M-16 in the slideshow? Don't get mad at me now, but I will say if she lived in America she'd be in the Tea Party.
do you know that everyone is Taxed Enough Already. im not a dem or repub, or anything, but i'm sure everyone is sick of all these illegal taxes. m16! i just got a kimber 1911. beautiful piece of craftsmanship. oh. GO REBELS.
Yeah she's been Taxed Enough by Ghadafi Already.
If you guys aren't Dem or Rebup like you always say, then how come you only ever have Republican candidates? Well?
*crickets chirping*
Dangerous Mind...
Before you go commenting on weapon types (How about scary old lady firing the M-16 in the slideshow?) you really need to know what you are talking about! The M16 that old lady is shooting is actually an eastern block weapon, almost certainly an AK47. Sheez.
Yes...we could "save" billions if we leave Afghanistan. Aren't you guys forgetting military contracts that are legal and binding for military vendors working in that country on behalf of the US government? And which good ole boy from the red states would scream like a stuck pig if President Obama pulled troops out tomorrow?
All of those stuck pigs from states who make the most profit for their economies from their military vendors. Now...go check which states that would be and let me know if you are surprised.
Shame on the permanent members of the UN. Why have a UN ( or allies for that matter) when they just abstain from voting on the tough calls? How about sending China in there. They're the ones with all the cash to burn. Shame on the American journalist too, quit regurgitating all our news from press releases and dig into the real matters and report. We deserve reporters who tell us everything, especially what the powers that be don't want us to hear, and there certainly plenty of that to go around. Americans, get together, take our country back.
Even pretending this is a fraction of the disaster that Bush+Afghanistan+Iraq was is laughable. This is chump change that Britain and France will do the bulk of anyway. It's also backed by a UN resolution so it's legal which is a refreshing change. China doesn't have much economic interest there it's mostly Europe.
They also know continuous war is a bad long term strategy. That's why they leave that to us and get richer while we get poorer. They know they can count on the American public to beat the drums of war at the drop of a hat.
I agree with you on our media. I was asking the same thing all through the Iraq vangard of lies that started the invasion. The media didn't report on any of the questionable intelligence items and they all, left and right, kissed Bushes behind and questioned nothing. But our media is corporate owned and they will report on what keeps them their jobs.
Dangerous Mind:Assuming a free press would and could keep the people informed of "mischiefs" by any or all branches of government was the worst mistake of our establishing forefathers. Has not yet destroyed the country but may well at any time. Our greatest enemy, corporations, control us now, from birth through death. If we are to survive, we must change this and we can only do this through citizen participation in government, along with using and holding communications with each other through the web. When obvious things are not mentioned by conventional news outlets, or are distorted to the point of illogicality, then we must be able to read that as the lie it most often is, just as well as we read logical factuality. Good posts my friend. Regards
Memo to Daddy regarding Drone Predator aiircraft:
Only known defense: keep tent flaps closed,,
And lose the hat: it's a fashion target.
Yours in smoke,
sig
Everyone is missing the big picture. Libyan civil war threatens to destroy the country. Japan is already destroyed. I say the Japanese form an orderly line to enter Libya, while all the Libyans calmly go over to Japan, which is conveniently pre-destroyed. Then everyone goes back to doing their business as they see fit.
lol. Sir, I have always wondered. Given your enormous fortune, why did you take a three hour tour on some tiny boat operation run by amateurs?
Hate to tell you this. It wasn't that good.
It was a pretty stoopid show. Had a few good jokes. Watched mostly cause of Mary Ann and Ginger. =)
That's a hilarious joke, outside of all those suffering in both situations and everything. True though it would save everyone a hassle.
Mary Ann was HOT!!
Finally, a bit of sanity in place of the INSANITY of the article that spawned this blog. Ginger was certain she was "the bomb" (as the kids today say) even though she had an OK face and so-so figure. Mary Ann on the other hand had a killer bod, cute face, and seemed to be oblivious to the fact that she had either. Which in my book makes her the hands-down winner. Oh, and Howell, give any excuse you want, but Stoopid was right - you were stupid to get on that boat. And you brought along a trunk of money, numerous changes of clothes, etc. What didn't you understand about the "three hour" part of the three hour tour? Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Jbird: lol. I laughed so hard my suppositories shot out and went right through the drywall. It was like a tommy gun.
The UN is waiting on a large shipment of vagicil, but little do they know Obama intercepted the shipment and has been bathing in it nightly. Nothing will be done. We will see a repeat of Rwanda where the UN forces stood by while machetes hued flesh from bone.
tb asston, you and stoopid should get together and have a group discussion
???????????????????
Wasn't Rwanda under Bush's watch? Where were the Fox News talking points about Bush being indecisive in a horrible humanitarian crisis? Where were the slews of teabaggers crying that his hesitation led to the loss of human life?
Wait what? No oil there? Nevermind.
Rwanda was under Clinton's watch.
i love people who jump to end genocide in other countries usually with the lives of our soldiers. meanwhile here in the U.S. 90 thousand unborn civilians are killed every year. how come these libs dont keep a daily body count like they did in Iraq oh i know why because they support Roe vs Wade
I've heard figures like 50 million babies have been aborted since roe vs. wade, which would have resulted in at least 100 million more people in the United States. I don't know about you, but I kinda think it's a good thing we don't have a 100 million unwanted people in this country.
Last I looked it was 300,000 last year alone. Get your numbers right:o)
Abortion needs to be satellite guided so it hits the correct target, instead of causing collateral damage. Gdolphi should have been aborted and Libya wouldn't be an issue now. Sadly there may have been a moderate leader that got the vacuum blender treatment, but we will never know. At least there's a 50/50 chance that bad people will get the ish sucked out of them before they have the opportunity to be shutdown by the other end of that 50/50.
TB Austin...Better than the horseschiest Bush wallowed in. I hear Bush can't leave Crawford these days for fear of reprisals from those countries where he set up his secret prisons...Gee...and here I thought the Rodeo Show went back to Crawford.
If you are talking about abortions...wrong trend...however, unborn..there is your clue right there. Can't be a citizen if your unborn or undead.
@slightly old, It is considered a human offspring tho even if citizenship is not qualified. The unborn statement makes your point... slightly old
An embryo (irregularly from Greek: ἔμβρυον, plural ἔμβρυα, lit. "that which grows," from en- "in" + bryein "to swell, be full"; the proper Latinate form would be embryum) is a multicellular diploid eukaryote in its earliest stage of development, from the time of first cell division until birth, hatching, or germination. In humans, it is called an embryo until about eight weeks after fertilization (i.e. ten weeks LMP), and from then it is instead called a fetus.
The development of the embryo is called embryogenesis. In organisms that reproduce sexually, once a sperm fertilizes an egg cell, the result is a cell called the zygote that has half of the DNA of each of two parents. In plants, animals, and some protists, the zygote will begin to divide by mitosis to produce a multicellular organism. The result of this process is an embryo.
A fetus (pronounced /ˈfiːtəs/; also spelled foetus, fœtus, faetus, or fætus, see below) is a developing mammal or other viviparous vertebrate after the embryonic stage and before birth.
In humans, the fetal stage of prenatal development starts at the beginning of the 11th week in gestational age, which is the 9th week after fertilization
so maybe not a citizen, but most certainly classified as human offspring, kinda changes your entire paradigm doesnt it,
Enough off topic talk, wasnt this article about the un-necessary third war (military action) that we have started. Clinton blew it, she Said NO at first, and was "persuaded" to be as dumb as her husband. Then Obama who was making strides in peace, declared "WAR" while he was on foreign ground, playing in Brazil.
Yes, our poli (TICS) ians are at it again, destroying more of our money in useless endeavours.