The state will win on this, the funny thing is that all the union dues will go up to pay for all the people brought in for the protest. Maybe the left will realize that we can't afford not to due this. The UAW should have told them this, we can make cars in Mexico but not govern our states from there.

They should agree to take this off the table for now, and when the Democrats return, expel them all, and vote the way they want. There is basically no difference since the Republicans hold a huge majority now, and the Democrats are not doing their sworn duty.

The idiot in Wisconsin is not running the state to help the populace. He is implementing FACISM, taking his orders from the KOCH Brothers. He is a traitor, as are his supporters.

Speaking of paying people to protest...

"If the senators have decided to hold someone in contempt, I would think they would hold themselves and our governor, I wish we could, in contempt for failing to listen to a half million people who have come to Madison," Sen. Lena Taylor

I find it funny they say that, considering a large number of the protesters aren't even from Wisconsin. Why should any state legislature listen to out of state people when it comes to local politics?

Walker is the biggest joke since Jesse Ventura. 62% of the population (52% of conservatives) are against breaking up unions.

And limbaughner gets his morning laugh. You guys should go back and read his post history, he's not who you think.

Did you not watch the video? How does 77% opposition to something equate to "everyone is behind you"?

I rarely make predictions, but I'm going to do so on this. Walker has overplayed his hand to an extent that defies belief. He holds a very weak hand and does not know it. He is bluffing and does not know it. A majority of the folks in this land DO know it. Woe unto the governor who does not understand the stupidity of Walker's approach.

Republicans are going to take a terrible hit for this insanity in 2012.

Perhaps the Democrats can take over the moderate right and left center and we can get this country back on track.

A warning to Dems: That the Republicans are going to be hammered does not mean we want a return to overspending.

"Republicans are going to take a terrible hit for this insanity in 2012."

Yeah there's quite a bit of really odd far right legislation coming from the states right now.

I've heard folks say that last november was the result of the government go too far left.

The same thing will happen if it goes too far right.

Wow...

"Surrender, or we'll kill the hostages! Hugs and kisses, The Gov."

Overplayed is being kind.

No, Walker is on the right track. The Democrats are not doing their job. Not only for this bill, but for all the business the State needs to be doing. The only thing wrong with the plan is the lay-offs should be immediate, not 31 days later.

In Ohio, we've made it through one House and are hopeful for the other since the Republicans hold a majority. Ohio wants to move forward and balance it's budget and create an environment that will encourage new jobs to come into the State, too bad WI doesn't.

Dosh I did read some of those posts. This is still the U.S.of A and he has the right to free speech, just like you and I. So limbaughner maybe a little off kilter but that is what makes people so different and the world so interesting.

I'll spell it out for you.

He's the Stephen Colbert of the vine.

Duffus doyle buried Wisconsin in a financial hole giving a lot of tax monies to the university faculty and public school teachers for pension and benefits (the last time he stole 600 million for bridge repair that went directly into the pension fund) and now that we have a Governor who is trying to keep the state running and working for 15 million people and not just the unions the liberals twist the information and jam the media with twisted words and finger poking trying too hide the problem which has sapped our state government for years. Eliminating collective bargaining isn't the eradication of unions or all the benefits but it stops the teachers from blackmailing the taxpayers when it comes to fair negotiations.

If I were Governor and the unions pulled this stunt I would layoff 10x just too make the point of what type of burden they are on the taxpayer.

Get rid of public schools and let private schools take over so that good education can finally be had.

Even though I'm on Walker's side, being a fiscal conservative, I hate it when politicians use us as pawns. And make no mistake, both sides are doing it in this case.

This kind of talk is exactly how unions came into being! "DO as I say, or else!"

Ohio wants to move forward and balance it's budget and create an environment that will encourage new jobs to come into the State

Yeah, because out-of-state business owners are just totally turned off to Ohio because public workers have collective bargaining rights. That makes sense.

Let's look at some real numbers for comparison;

The average teacher's compensation in Wisconsin is $81,000 in salary and benefits for 9 months of work, an average monthly cost to taxpayers of $9,000 for time worked.

The average private sector worker's compensation in Wisconsin is $56,000 in salary and benefits for 11.5 months of work (2 weeks vacation), an average monthly cost to private employers of $4,900.

The average teacher in Wisconsin makes $4,100 (84%) more in wages and benefits than the typical private sector worker for time worked.

You be the 'judge' as to whether the compensation is appropriate.

Also keep in mind one other fact. In private industry the average job turnover rate is about once in 5 years (layoffs, terminations, etc.) whereas the average turnover in the public sector is once in 20 years, typically because layoffs in the public sector are rare.

Dosh I love Stephen Colbert. :)

Patriot thank you for explaining it, hopefully others will read this and go oh ok.

Sure glad I don't live there.

Revise your numbers to include only private sector workers with Masters degrees Roy and see what you come up with.

Every teacher has to have a four year degree and be certified to teach.

"Dosh I love Stephen Colbert. :)"

I do too. I'm not saying limbaugher shouldn't be doing what he is. He is one of the very few unique personalities on the vine.

I just couldn't resist pointing out the joke this morning.

I'm happy this conservative gov in WI has won. This is a great day for the 70% of Americans who realize that spending must be cut drastically. And we have Kasich in ohio doing the same. The IN gov has already made similar changes and has saved that state billions. My new gov here in FL (Scott) is also taking a chain saw to liberal spending. And let us not forget the greatest of them all, Chris Christie on NJ. I can't wait until 2012 as the conservatives really sweep thru the senate, house, and white house. And not to mention winning more governor races.

This is a great time to be a conservative! Yay!

Liberals! LMFAO!!

Many Republicans are going down on this one. They gave no indication as a party they would attack unions or collective bargaining and with number of reps that won with the slimist of margains the current push to recall them is not an idle threat, it has punch.

Walker has admitted privately this is to help the party and trying to kill the voice of the opposition is not American. 3 countries have made that clear in the last few weeks with more in the works. We took down 2 countries ourselves that worked hard to kill the power of the opposition, often literally, and to start these strong arm tactics at home is a atrocity that shames the name of the party.

Shame on you heir Walker and anyone that backs this gestapo tactic aimed solely at weakening and untimately silencing opposing viewpoints.

The average teacher's compensation in Wisconsin is $81,000... The average private sector worker's compensation in Wisconsin is $56,000

What does average worker compensation have to do with average teacher compensation?

An average doctor probably makes 4 times as much as the average overall worker. Should we be outraged about that too?

Go ahead, lay them off. Then, intead of the Wisconsin taxpayers footing the bill for their WORK, they can pay for unemployment benefits. Anyone still think Walker is just trying to cut spending? If you do, call Walker's office and ask to speak with him, but use your own name, not some out-of-state billionaire. Let us know whether you get through.

ROY WILSON-336103

Let's look at some real numbers for comparison;

The average teacher's compensation in Wisconsin is $81,000 in salary and benefits for 9 months of work, an average monthly cost to taxpayers of $9,000 for time worked.

The average private sector worker's compensation in Wisconsin is $56,000 in salary and benefits for 11.5 months of work (2 weeks vacation), an average monthly cost to private employers of $4,900.

Was looking for your statistical skewing in this thread - found it.

So tell me the education level of the sample private sector jobs? Do they have BS?

You cant compare janitors to a white collar professional with BS+ education and expect the numbers to be the same?

There are 5.3 million residents of Wisconsin, who are represented by the Governor, Senate and Assembly. When one part of the process runs away and hides because they will not vote on an issue then they should be held in contempt.

"If the senators have decided to hold someone in contempt, I would think they would hold themselves and our governor, I wish we could, in contempt for failing to listen to a half million people who have come to Madison," Sen. Lena Taylor.

Senator Taylor has it right, when the senate does not listen to 5.3 million residents they should be held in contempt and should actually be fired for job abandonment. Clearly the Senator is a product of Wisconsin education, when she thinks a minority of half a million people should trump the majority of 5.3 million residents.

@Roy:

You, and many others, have got to stop peddling these ridiculous fake numbers for teacher salaries. The average teacher salary in the State of Wisconsin is around $46k. Further, I would hope we would have a low turnover rate in teaching. Long term teachers save the State money in training costs and other expenses. There is a national cost of at least $2.2 billion in replacing teachers. Benefits are a borderline joke in a teacher salary as well. Most have high premium insurance and poor coverage. There are so many more facts out there than what is being spoonfed to you.

Why do state workers think that they do not have to tighten their belts too. Everyone knows this country is in a rouch patch and some sacrifice needs to take place.

HEY, UNION WORKERS...DO YOUR PART!

Also, no one is holding a gun to these state workers heads saying they have to stay in their cushy jobs. Get another job if the Governors plan for your union is sounreasonable. What gives you the right to dictate how much money you take from Wisconsins taxpayers?

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

The issues the Governor is fighting for are not about Union busting, but about Balancing the State Budget and SAVING the State Economy and balancing jobs with state tax income!

Go Gov! Get rid of these tantrum throwing, self-centered few, who want to bankrupt all!

MtMike-571674

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

The issues the Governor is fighting for are not about Union busting, but about Balancing the State Budget and SAVING the State Economy and balancing jobs with state tax income!

Go Gov! Get rid of these tantrum throwing, self-centered few, who want to bankrupt all!

Then why hasnt he addressed mecicare/aid - you know - the root cause of the debt?

willowbrook.. Most of us in Ohio do not want the public unions busted. The only way that senate bill 5 got to the second step was with underhanded if not illegal political manuvering. They had to remove "republican" members of the commitee who did not support it and replace them with 2 who did. There is a flaw in the assumption that the majority in Ohio want what Kasic has in mind for our state. I voted 3rd party because I wanted change. To take awy the bargaining power of the working class is not a step in the right direction umless of course you are a corporate CEO who will benefit from larger bonuses when EVERYONES wages and benefits are slashed over the next few years. Busting the unions is not a good thing for anyone who is a member of the working class in th elong run.

Love it, or hate it.... the goings on in Wisconsin are going to send shockwaves throught our entire political system.

We are watching history being made.

If these workers can take off 2-3 weeks from their jobs to hang out at the capitol, then I guess they can afford to be laid off. I just can't understand why these public workers think that the rest of us should make sacrifices but they shouldn't. And the way those Democrats in hiding are behaving is childish, unprofessional, and not doing their jobs. Just exactly HOW do they think anything will be resolved during their long pout? Didn't see the Republicans acting so ridiculous when the health care bill was being slipped under the door. They knew there was little to no chance of them being heard, but at least they were responsible enough to stay on the job and not go off to hide out to prevent any vote being taken.

These public workers and unions, no doubt, do want the state to balance the budget...just don't expect them to do their share. Let the other guys take care of it so they can enjoy the benefits. A real life Chicken Little story.

You go Gov! The Party of No-Show hides in a hole whenever they don't get their way! AND YOU TALK ABOUT DEMOCRACY? BUMS! Get to work!

Elections have consequences, Walker ran on this platform. Get over it. The world has been shown the lazy union worker in all there glory, missing work for weeks, laying around drinking beer, getting stoned. That's all well and good in your own home not the state capital. And those missing legislators, your disgraceful. Imagine the whinning of the media if a republican led walk out were to happen? It would be "REPUBLICANS SHUT DOWN THE GOVERNMENT"!!! Oh how can they be so reckless, so uncaring!

And if ANYONE believes these polls I have some swamp land in Florida to sell you. No one I know, and I mostly know democrats, believe in "public sector" union thuggery. These people work for "US", not a corporation or company. It appears "WE the people" need protection from them, not the other way around.

Show em the door. There are plenty of hard working folks waiting to take their places.

The systems has been abused enough and its time for change.

just so you're comparing apples to apple Dosh...a 4 year degree and teaching certificate is not a Masters Degree. Now, I am sure some of the teachers do have Masters Degrees, I know most teachers in WI do not have a Masters.

Seeing as how a large majority of Americans are opposed to cutting collective bargaining for public employees...how is breaking up unions advocating the will of the people? It's not. Gov Darth Walker is just trying to destroy the democratic base. To everyone supporting this fascist regime, how do you respond to the fact that the union has already agreed to all the financial stipulations Walker insists on, they just don't want to lose their collective bargaining rights. This is union busting at its finest. Do you really think that if we get rid of unions businesses and government will continue to treat workers just as well? Look around the country...the GOP is trying very hard to drag us back 150 years. "Take our country back." Well, they are trying very hard to take us back. Missouri has a bill on the floor in their state legislature that will effectively remove all child labor laws in the state. So go on and keep thinking that worker's rights will remain the same if all the unions are dissolved...you're delusional if you do.

They gave in to the governor on EVERYTHING financial. Only thing left on the table he didn't get was his union busting. The governor is having a tantrum.

And I am a Republican who believes the government has been overspending. Has Wisconsin's governor never heard of compromising and negotiating. This is as bad as Obama and his Democrats in Congress cramming their liberal agenda down American's throats while they had a majority, just because they could.

Incidently, I don't have state by state numbers, but nationwide teaching has one of the highest dropout rates of any college educated profession. They also have the lowest pay for any college educated professions except religious work. Average teacher pay is $46,000 in Wisconsin. There is absolutely no way benefits added in would bring it to $81000. I suspect benefits would bring it into the low $60,000s. Compare that with other college educated professionals.

Mike-416

Addressing THIS State Employee issue in Wisconsin, is but one of a multi-facet tax revenue incme problem versus state budget problem. California will face these same State Employee entitlement issues in June, when California votes down a tax increase. State employee entitlement and retirement packages can not be met by State Tax Revenue across the US, in the long term.

Nor can the medicare aid you brought up or aid to illegals from the states.

All these issues will have to be addressed by state legislatues, one budget problem at a time, including, taxing the most wealthy to balance the budget(s) (State and Federal) and also how much is spent on the military industrial complex (the US War Machine is not sustainable! Watch!

Did a little bit of digging....Guess, just guess, who Walker is hotsy totsy with? None other than Karl Rove. Sound bizarre? Not when you check out Associated Press (AP) reports that he admitted raising "a massive sum to combat unions" in WI. It appears that Rove has at his disposal huge corporate backers who are helping his lobbying cause. Not surprising when you consider he is the RNC's chief political strategist and has been since Bush initiated him into the club.

But and it's always the "but" that defines the real skinny, Rove as a political analyst for Fox News, Newsweek and The Wall Street Journal all of which are tied to multi-billionaire, media mogul, Rupert Murdoch, is also planning to raise $120 billion for the 2012 elections to defeat President Obama. Now...who do you suppose has that kind of money?

So, our little fat rich boy Rove is still at it. Swinging away with his RNC Young Republican axe at hard working Americans and all to insure that the wealth stays where this little overindulged Little Lord Fauntleroy thinks it belongs...with his wealthy cronies.

Who has the kind of money to funnel Walker's anti-union tactics? Corporate America, of course. Be scared, be very very scared. When Corporate America can use it's huge supplies of money (most of which we helped them earn) to defeat unions and workers ala Rovian neoconservative obsession, how close are the working poor and Middle Class to a Corporate America coup de etat?

In hindsight, how do any of us know that those 2 Bush bailouts and the forced 3rd bailout in 2009 were nothing more than a Corporate America scam to deliberately reduce the wealth and prosperity of the Middle Class to create the most powerful Corporate America push for control yet?

We don't. And that's what's so scary. Wake up America. There may be some Americans willing to worship at the altar of Corporate America and fall prey to being at their mercy in every aspect of your life, I'm not one of them.

Libs are a joke. They all want to use the teacher education ploy as a reason for higher pay. This is not just about teachers. How about the guy that cuts the grass along roadways getting 60 k a year with another 20 K for health insurance with an IQ of 90. In the real world private sector the guy cutting grass gets 10 bucks an hour not 30. Teachers are only a small part of the states budget. road crews, secretarial personnel, sanitation are a few that are way overpaid for what they do.

Come on Roy Wilson! Comparing one public sector job to the "average" of all private sector jobs is saying what? Hey here's an idea for ya! If you want to use comparisons, how about you compare public sector teachers with private sector teachers. Get back to me on that one.

Let's not forget a few important details. The unions have already agreed to take the pay cuts and additional increase in pension deductions every paycheck. They don't want to lose their right to collective bargaining. In other words, they don't the unions all but disbanded.

After all, now that the blank check bill for businesses to donate to campaign funds has been approved, no other institution has come close to donating as much as businesses to Republicans except maybe the unions to Democrats. Get it? If the Republicans remove the unions, they cut Democrat funding for campaigns.

Please don't forget the extra 150 million in tax breaks the Governor has gifted to big business. That's 150 million less that the state will have this year. So much for being fiscally conservative.

Break it down to what is happening. The Governer of Wisconsin is trying to balance his budget. This is his plan. In his plan no one loses a job, and people are held accountable for their own increases (above the standard COLA). basically two raises each year (most people get one). The only thing weakened are unions, not the individual. Unions back Liberals. The Liberals in media have turned this into a "weakening of America". In order to support its base, the Liberals are trying to portray this act as being un-American. When it is all said and done with it comes down to one thing; balancing the budget in Wisconsin. Three states have already taken more away from their unions than what is proposed in Wisconsin. Why don't you libs cry for them?

One can't blame the states for inbalanced budgets. They increased in size as revenues grew based on increases from property taxes to payroll taxes. That money is no longer there. So the states have to do one of two things make cuts (down sizze), or some how pay less for what they have. Unfortunately, there is no way around it. Because the employees of most states belong to unions, and in order to make the cuts proposed, there has to some changes made. These are the changes, and they are happening. Not because of one faction trying to make the other weaker, but because someone is trying to keep the lights on.

The sad thing is libs will neve look at it that way, because they want everyone to keep their jobs, lollipops for all kids, 5 star health care to everyone
(including illegal aliens), a government big enough to give us everything we ever wanted....ever. All paid for by someone who makes more money than they do.

Of course, I will get chastised by the "I want it all, and I want it paid for by you" crowd. Let me help you out. Conservatives want sick babies homeless, to fund a gestapo military, dictators in every county (to keep the man down), and for everything to cost so much that only the top 1% in America can afford anything.

Yeah, that's what conservatives want. Actually, just acountability for what you do, and to take care of one's self. Not have the government do it, and not have the government tell me I need to do it for someone else.

My rant for the day. Happy Friday.

I say lay them all off then hire non-Union workers to their positions. No better time for it exists than now. With unemployment where it is I'm sure they can fill the positions.

Salaries, whatever. The teachers in Wisconsin received a 4.7% salary increase LAST YEAR while EVERYONE ELSE had to cut back. Sure, they will take a pay cut now. Perhaps even offer back a portion of the 4.7% salary increase they should not have received in the first place. Oh, and that 4.7% was covered by stimulus money as well. Teacher unions and their supporters ONLY think of themselves, not the children.

@ James, you are not from Ohio, I can tell by your statement. We have had many large businesses leave the State, the 2 biggest reasons, taxes and Unions. If they were unable to bargain with or break the Union, they left. This bill will help both, by lowering taxes needed to pay for Union Public sector employees and to put all Unions on notice that we're watching and are less willing to allow Unions to abuse employers in this economy.

limbaugher makes me laugh. You crazy.

Here, let me rephrase with a point: Hey, Walker, you mental midget. Axe the 1500 teachers you should have done IN THE FIRST PLACE, instead of making yourself look stupid and rallying the unions together by trying to change a system that works. In other words, SHOCKER, you actually can work the system like any governor already has.

@ Avenger, please see my comment directed @ James, the same applies for your comment as well. It is not about corporate greed, or hurting working families (the "famous" Union talking points!) It about having a State budget that can PAY those who are on the payroll without borrowing money. The alternative is layoffs, (which might be a good thing since they would have to do what we did in the private sector, cope and adapt to the recession.) The recession didn't only happen to the private sector, it happened to the State and Local govt.'s as well. Why should they be exempt from adjusting to the situation? It is not the Union's place to tell the govt. how they will let the govt. adapt to the recession. That is the responsibility of the elected legislators. Too long Unions have been hurting private Industry in the US, now it is hurting the Public sector as well. They are "past it," and need to fade quietly into the night.

Avenger,

I'm from Ohio and I want the bill. I'm all for breaking up the arcane unions. They don't help a business, they don't help states, and in all honesty they no longer help the workers. They have fat cats at the top taking Union dues and using it for their paychecks, a lawyers paycheck, and funding political activities regardless of the members of the unions position on the political activity. If you ask me it is almost like extortion. You either pay us, or you don't work. That mentality is a crime!

If making the hard choices to not go completely broke and lay off EVERYONE is partisan, I think that says alot about those who are way out on the left. There isn't enough $$. Period.

Ironically, the right pushed for getting represented in the last election and the left just ridiculed them for it. Now they have people "representing" them that don't even show up to vote "NO".

What I don't understand is how this all got so twisted. Months ago, if you had asked anyone what would need to be done to balance the WI budget, people would have told you that it would be necessary to lay off hundreds of workers and make cuts in spending elsewhere.

Instead, Walker comes up with a way to not only keep everyone's job, but to also provide incentives to companies so that he can attract more jobs.

So, instead of being thankful that he came up with a way to keep their jobs, the public workers decide to protest because his plan requires them to give up collective bargaining rights.

And, since he cannot implement the plan that saves everyone's job, he will be forced to do what everyone expected in the first place - only now, he is the bad guy because he is supposedly holding peoples jobs as a hostage.

What a mixed up world this is.

If a kidnapper kills his hostage because the ransom is not paid the responsibility for that murder lies with the kidnapper. This situation is no different.

It's simply amazing how many "collapsed by the community" comments make good points, and the majority of the are on... guess what side???? So much for freedom of the press.
Where has our America gone? I miss it.

amazing that you scream and cry that the public sector has to do its part in this reccession (even though they alrdy agreed to pay more for their benefits and take cuts to pay), when the republicrat party just faught so hard to make sure people makeing over 250,000 a year would get their tax breaks.... and you are upset that teachers make between 60,000 and 90,000 and that they should "do more".

where can anyone show me that the private sector has done its part? has the private sector agreed to pay cuts? now u may want to claim that the private sector is suffering more of the joblessness in this recession, but how is this "doing your part"? you didnt quit your job in order to somehow help in the recession, no you had no choice in the matter. you were fired because the fat cats up top claimed it had to be done to maintain profits for the company so they can pay their taxes and ceo pay, and then your governments then give these rich corp thugs a tax break and the money they saved buy cutting your job goes straight into the pockets of the ceos. it is all a shell game and the uneducated masses are falling for it everytime.

and u want to cut spending to education, u want teachers to take pay hits and do more with less? you are supporting the stupidity of the masses that does nothing but fund the few and rape the common man!

the claims that teachers only work 9 months a year is pure BS, some schools do go year round, and even in those that dont teachers work summers to try and help those students that need a little more time. teachers work after school hours teachers work on weekends to prepare for the comeing week. for those of use that have children and know how hard it is to deal with and teach them know the truth, that teachers are by far the hardest working americans in this country, now yes i agree there are bad teachers out there, but there are also bad cops, bad union leaders, bad daycare workers, bad governors, and so on and so forth.

I think the Republicans are doing more to get the Democrats re-elected than the Democrats themselves. I guess that is only fair since the Democrats did the same for them last term.

Annie-1496690

It's simply amazing how many "collapsed by the community" comments make good points, and the majority of the are on... guess what side???? So much for freedom of the press.
Where has our America gone? I miss it.

We try to accommodate all Americans. We give them responsibility by giving people the ability to collapse posts for various good reasons. Now you see which group tends to abuse those responsibilities the most and for no other reason then to mislead America by attempting to restrict our right to freedom of speech. Good thing they are a minority in America.

Let me tell you all a story. I worked in a union for twenty years. I was paid a very good wage for my work and felt obligated to respond to my employer in kind. If I had a bad day and did not produce much, I still got paid. But if I had a good day, the union fined me for going over our quota. It made no sense to me so I continued to produce over quota when I could and paid the fines. Then they told me if I continued, they would pull my card. I was making the slackers look bad. So I came in every day and hit quota, not 1 less, not 1 more. They called me in again and threatened to pull my card because I was making it look like there was a quota (there was you thieves!).

I paid my dues and watched a good portion of those dues go to the International's defense fund. When the company got fed up with the nonsense with the quotas, they shut the plant down and moved down south. We tried to fight the move and when we asked the international for some of the defense fund back to pay lawyers, they flat out said "no, we may need it for ourselves someday. But when you close the local union, send all the money left in your treasury to us." Nice huh?

The Unions can burn in Hell!

Gov. Walker knows perfectly well that in fact his stand about unions' collective bargaining has absolutely nothing to do with his state's deficit. He's already won the economic face-off, and what he wants to do now is break the unions.

There are a number of outright lies circulating here about the public employee unions in Wisconsin. Among them:

1. The unions are coercive. FALSE.

Membership in the unions is VOLUNTARY.

2. The unions are forcing the state to deduct dues from teachers' pay - and using taxpayer money to do it. FALSE.

Direct payroll deducation is VOLUNTARY.

The union dues are paid out of workers' earnings - it is their money and their choice about how to use it.

3. Teachers are overpaid, don't work a large part of the year, and demand that the taxpayers provide them with "free" bloated pensions. FALSE.

Teachers earn less than their private industry counterparts in Wisconsin. Considerably less.

Teachers must work year-'round to keep their certifications, and often take second jobs to maintain their households. Many work late into the night and over weekends, especially if their jobs include coaching, advising student clubs and programs, or such subject areas as band, choir, and drama.

Teachers' pensions are NOT "free," either. It's called "deferred income," a trade-off for lower pay levels so that their pensions will be available in their retirement. The average Wisconsin teacher pension is $19,000 per year - hardly "bloated." By enrolling in the pension program, teachers and other public employees are not permitted to collect Social Security, even if they made contributions from the earnings of second jobs.

What Gov. Walker is doing now is similar to the famous gangster movie scenes, when the crook takes a hostage, holds a gun up and says, "Don't make me do this! If she dies, it's YOUR fault, coppers!"

The governor knows perfectly well that his position is untenable, and that in accord with other times in American legislative history, the State Senate Democrats are exercising the right of a minority party to withhold a quorum from unacceptable oppression by the majority party.

The entire country disagrees with both the principle and the measures forwarded by Gov. Walker. His threats pose a risk of escalation of the conflict in his state, and certainly threaten the future of the Republicans in at least Wisconsin.

Go ahead and lay off the 1500 union workers you're threatening. Watch as the rest go on strike! I could only hope it would happen (nationwide at that), mind you I'm not a union worker. It sickens me to see anybody trying to destroy an important part of people's right to band together for a common cause. Let's face it, without collective bargaining, the only other option is to strike whenever something happens with which the workers don't agree. Have fun with that Wisconsin.

Sure, they may be the minority, but it is the moral duty of the majority not to repress the opinions of those who do not agree with them. The Republicans and Democrats are two sides of the same coin in this case. On capital hill the Republican minority fillibustered to get concessions from the Democrats. In the WI state legislature, the Democrats are doing the only thing they can in order to have some input on this important piece of legislation. If anything, the Democrats should be lauded for their attempts to have their voices heard. The partisanship has to end!

John A.-400474

Without supportive and credible sources to your claims, then that's all they are, claims with no substance.

JohnA400,

your just posting flat out lies dude. It is NOT voluntary, you have no idea what your writing about.

your quote "Teachers must work year-'round to keep their certifications"

that is a flat out lie! you just make this junk up, I know teachers in Wisconsin bud, that is completely false!

Teachers work less days than any other "profession", and they knew the salary before they took the job. They liked the idea of being in a union, or they wouldn't be a teacher. You know what? everything changes, nothing stays the same. If they don't like it, then quit.

as far as the governor's position untenable. LOL Just watch my friend, this will go through, whether you like it our not. He WAS ELECTED on this platform. Don't like it, who cares, in 4 years you can vote him out, till then tough.

Sell stupid somewhere else, we're all full up here.

JCB

Your uninformed, ignorant comments about the number of hours teachers work is as true as if you said that professional athletes only work for 4 hours per week, ignoring practice and off season conditioning. I worked as a high school science teacher for several years spending approximately 60 hours per week at my job ..... 30 hours conducting classes and 30 preparing material for classes, writing quizzes and exams, preparing demonstrations and laboratory exercises, and grading class work. There was also considerable time involved in dealing with parents, administration and helping students make up work missed while they were absent.

I knew of very few teachers who actually wanted to be in a union, but unions were necessary to not only negotiate salaries but to improve classroom conditions such as class size, curricula and other important education issues.

It might also interest you to know that HALF OF MY RETIREMENT WAS FUNDED BY MY OWN CONTRIBUTIONS, a common situation for public sector employees. I also paid more than $750 per month for health insurance covering my spouse and I .... for policy that featured an annual deductible of $2000! Those of you who think the taxpayers are footing the bill for lavish retirement and benefit packages are uninformed, partly because you don't seek information before you launch into your anti-union rants and partly because people like the Wisconsin Republicans are lying to you.

The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Employee Pensions

Feb. 25 2011 - 11:56 am Rick Ungar

Wisconsin.

Gov. Scott Walker says he wants state workers covered by collective bargaining agreements to “contribute more” to their pension and health insurance plans. Accepting Gov. Walker’ s assertions as fact, and failing to check, creates the impression that somehow the workers are getting something extra, a gift from taxpayers. They are not. Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin’ s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

How can this be possible?

Simple. The pension plan is the direct result of deferred compensation- money that employees would have been paid as cash salary but choose, instead, to have placed in the state operated pension fund where the money can be professionally invested (at a lower cost of management) for the future.

Check out section 13 of the Wisconsin Association of State Prosecutors collective bargaining agreement – “For the duration of this Agreement, the Employer will contribute on behalf of the employee five percent (5%) of the employee’s earnings paid by the State. ”

Governor Walker has gotten away with this false narrative because journalists have failed to look closely at how employee pension plans work and have simply accepted the Governor’s word for it. Because of this, those who wish the unions ill have been able to seize on that narrative to score points by running ads and spreading the word that state employees pay next to nothing for their pensions and that it is all a big taxpayer give-away.

If the Wisconsin governor and state legislature were to be honest, they would correctly frame this issue. They are not, in fact, asking state employees to make a larger contribution to their pension and benefits programs as that would not be possible- the employees are already paying 100% of the contributions.

What they are actually asking is that the employees take a pay cut.

Maybe state workers need to take pay cut along with so many of their fellow Americans. But let’s, at the least, recognize this sacrifice for what it is rather than pretending they’ve been getting away with some sweet deal that now must be brought to an end.

http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed-taxpayers-actually-contribute-nothing-to-public-employee-pensions/

http://tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/UBEN-8EDJYS?OpenDocument

________________________________________________________

Like I said yesterday I’m getting right tired of setting up by the fire on the Hill this winter listening to some of you’ll(‘specially you Tea Party Yahoo’s) holler and whoop all about how my retired school teacher wife somehow spent 30 years of her life defrauding you out of your hard earned tax dollars. I’m not even going to get into how I feel about you’ll calling her a “bottom feeder” ‘cause that might turn into a case of justifiable assault.

Just so’s you know I’ve had to and still do on a right regular bases negotiate employment contracts both as employee and employer. No I’m not a Lawyer or even have a Harvard Doctorate in Economics or whatever NoJo is claiming this week. So I got a little busy this morning and brought some other fellows with me.

To begin with this pension fund deal works the same whether you are a public or private working fellow. In other words no matter who you work for and whether you get paid hourly, weekly or monthly the employer takes a % out of your paycheck and “contributes” it to the fund to be managed by that fund’s administrators. At that point because it was part of your overall compensation or wage it is yours.

The “contribution” part is where the difference is the most evident. In the case of large employers or states and even the Federal Government this “contribution” can amount to a large sum of money over the course of a year. Now we all know how weak in the knees Politicians of all political persuasions get around large sums of money. They just can’t help themselves it’s something in their genes I guess. Now a private employer can’t without serving some serious jail time do anything but make his “contribution” (really the employees money remember) and move on and let the fund administrators do their thing.

Public pension plans aren’t subject to these rules and regulations. I think that the one thing we all could agree on is that you’ve got to be careful how you get large sums of money and Legislators in close proximity. Gives them the Willys. Here’s just a few of the things they can do, will do, and will in all probability continue to do:

They can decide to not make their “contribution” As the gentleman above says because the money is part of the employee’s compensation this amounts to a cut in pay.

They can defer their “contribution”. Here this results in loss of the interest on the fund’s that should have been drawing interest so it’s basically a cut in pay.

They can borrow from the fund in a couple of different ways. They can in the process of deferring their payment put a promissory note in the fund that starts drawing interest generally projected at about 8%. They can also borrow from the fund setting a rate of about say 6% and figure to use the 2% difference in rate of return as revenue to fund other programs or to balance the budget. When the promissory note comes due or they get caught with their hands in the cookie jar when the market crashes and they’re only making 2% trying to cover 6 then the fund administrators have to carry it on the books as “unfunded”. Two things to keep in mind first this is the employee’s money not the employer’s and the Wisconsin fund is 99% fully funded with employee’s past “contributions”

Any one of these actions by a private employer would be against the Law. The rules and regulations regarding pension funds in the private sector and what you can and can’t do is second only in volume and complexity to our tax code.

For God’s sake people before you jump up on your hind legs and start hollering and screeching and charge off behind some ignorant a$$ to the culture war why don’t you take the five minutes necessary to inform yourself as to where your actually going. Or is that too much to ask?

Don,

I hope you didn't teach reading comprehension when you were teaching. JCB didn't make any "uninformed, ignorant comments" about the number of hours teachers work, because he didn't say anything at all about the hours the teachers work. He talked about the number of "days" a teacher works.

If you are going to call people out, at least make it over what they actually said.

JC
Apparently everything has to be spelled out for you in great detail for you to understand. If someone works 60 hours per week during the 180 day school year they have obviously worked more hours than someone who works a 40 hour week all year. The point is that teachers are working plenty of hours and the citizens are getting their money's worth.

In respect to the voluntary nature of dues payments - and many other contributions to such things as pension plkans - here is a direct cut-and-paste from the SEIU contract with Wisconsin - in this case, covering all "classified" workers for the state:

_____________________________________

SECTION 2: Dues Deduction

Such orders shall be effective only as to membership dues becoming due

after the date of delivery of such authorization to the payroll office of the

employing unit. New individual orders will be submitted on or before the 25th day

of any month for deduction the following pay period. Such deductions shall be

made from the employee’s pay for the first pay period of each month, except that

where the payroll of the department is processed by the centralized payroll of the

Department of Administration, such deductions shall be evenly divided between the

A and B pay periods. Deductions shall be made only when the employee has

sufficient earnings to cover same after deductions for social security, federal taxes,

state taxes, retirement, health insurance, income continuation insurance, and life

insurance. Deductions shall be in such amount as shall be certified to the Employer

in writing by the authorized representative of the local Union.

Upon receipt of a voluntary written individual order from any of its

employees covered by this Agreement on forms presently being provided by the

Union, the Employer will deduct from the pay due such employee those dues

required as the employee’s membership in the Union. A list of all employees from

whose pay dues have been deducted shall be sent to the appropriate local with that

local’s dues deduction check. At the same time, a copy of said list of employees

shall also be sent to Council 24.

___________________________

In a following paragraph, there is a discussion about workers who are and are not members of the Union, and the rights of members for transfer and other items.

http://www.wseu-24.org/Contracts%20and%20Constitutions/2007-2009%20wseu%20contract.pdf

Public employee unions there are voluntary. This is not the same as a private industry "union shop" with mandatory membership.

And by the way, the Governor is ALEADY in violation of the Union agreements by failing to negotiate in good faith. Courtest of Pietro, Columbus, Ohio, posted two days ago and re-posted with his permission now:

I have been watching the situation in Wisconsin pretty closely. We have a situation where a sitting Governor in Wisconsin is trying to take away the Collective Bargaining rights of Public Unions (with some exceptions). Many on this blog applaud what Gov. Walker is doing and think it is the right thing to do.

I disagree.

However, just disagreeing is not enough. In trying to understand all I can about Collective Bargaining, I did some research into the matter, and I concentrated my research in Wisconsin, which is the flash point at the moment. As with any research, I wanted to be sure that I understood COMPLETELY what Collective Bargaining is and what its purpose is supposed to be. So, here is a pretty good definition of Collective bargaining:

Collective bargaining allows workers and employers to reach voluntary agreement on a wide range of topics. Even so, it is limited to some extent by federal and state laws. A collective bargaining agreement cannot accomplish by contract what the law prohibits. For example, a union and an employer cannot use collective bargaining to deprive employees of rights they would otherwise enjoy under laws such as the Civil Rights statutes (Alexander v. Gardner-Denver Co., 415 U.S. 36, 94 S. Ct. 1011, 39 L. Ed. 2d 147 [1974]). Collective bargaining also cannot be used to waive rights or obligations that laws impose on either party. For example, an employer may not use collective bargaining to reduce the level of safety standards it must follow under the occupational safety and health act (29 U.S.C.A. §§ 651 et seq.). Furthermore, the collective bargaining agreement is not purely voluntary. One party's failure to reach agreement entitles the other to resort to certain legal tactics, such as strikes and lockouts, to apply economic pressure and force agreement.

source: The Free Dictionary (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/collective+bargaining)

So far so good. The problem in Wisconsin is how the Governor is approaching the Collective Bargaining issue. There is legislation that has already passed in the Assembly that would limit or excise the level of Collective bargaining that can be done by the State (the Employer) and the Union. I see a MAJOR problem with the Governor's stance on the issue. Where, then, would there be a problem? There is a problem with Good Faith Bargaining, as described in this definition:

Mandatory Subjects of Bargaining Although the parties need not bargain over every conceivable topic, they must bargain in good faith over mandatory subjects of bargaining, which include wages, hours, and other "terms and conditions of employment" (29 U.S.C.A. § 158[d]). Because these mandatory subjects are very broad, courts over the years have attempted to set standards for determining whether a specific bargaining topic is mandatory. Generally, terms and conditions of employment encompass only issues that "settle an aspect of the relationship between the employer and the employees" (Allied Chemical & Alkali Workers of America v. Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co., 404 U.S. 157, 92 S. Ct. 383, 30 L. Ed. 2d 341 [1971]).

If one party wishes to bargain over a mandatory subject, it is an unfair labor practice for the other to refuse. Other topics are permissive subjects of bargaining, and it may be an unfair labor practice for a party to demand bargaining over them (NLRB v. Wooster Division of Borg-Warner Corp., 356 U.S. 342, 78 S. Ct. 718, 2 L. Ed. 2d 823 [1958]). Thus, although the parties must bargain to an impasse over mandatory subjects of bargaining before implementing unilateral changes, they may change permissive subjects unilaterally without bargaining and cannot be forced to bargain over such changes.

source: The Free Dictionary (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/collective+bargaining)

The emphasis shown in both definitions are mine. So if Collecting Bargaining REQUIRES each party to negotiate, why is the Governor refusing to negotiate?

Governor Walker made it clear again in a news conference Monday evening that he will not negotiate on his budget repair plan. The governor spoke at the Capitol, repeating his refusal to accept compromises.

"This is about balancing our budget, not only today but balancing our budgets both at the state and local government for years to come. If you don't make the changes we're proposing for collective bargaining in this budget repair bill, we make it very difficult for local governments in particular to balance their budget in the next biennium in the next years to come," the governor said.

Source: http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=14071917

And the Governor’s stance was reported here:

MADISON — Gov. Scott Walker said Friday he wants to end collective bargaining for nearly all public employees because the state is broke and there’s no point negotiating with the unions when there is nothing to offer.

Source: http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/article/20110211/WDH0101/110211124/Governor-says-he-won-t-negotiate-with-unions

Part of the Collective bargaining process is that BOTH sides actually negotiate to get the desired result that both can live with. Here is the definition of Good Faith bargaining and the DUTY to do so:

Duty to Bargain in Good Faith During the bargaining process, the parties are not required by law to reach agreement. They must, however, bargain in good faith (29 U.S.C.A. § 158[d]). Although good faith is a somewhat subjective concept, courts will look to the entire circumstances surrounding bargaining, including behavior away from the bargaining table such as pressure and threats (NLRB v. Billion Motors, 700 F.2d 454 [8th Cir. 1983]). Most authorities agree that an absolute refusal to bargain constitutes bad faith (Wooster).

source: The Free Dictionary (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/collective+bargaining)

Now would you consider someone who is telling the unions to 'give up their collective bargaining' and no, I will not negotiate' as someone who is bargaining in good faith, as is their DUTY to do so?

Gov. Walker FAILS on this count.

So what is REALLY going on here? What is the REAL end game here and why is this governor so intransigent? We may have our answers in this article from the Washington Post:

With many working Americans financially battered by the recession and the years of economic uncertainty that preceded it, those leaders are aiming to be seen as friends of the middle class even as they challenge workers who themselves are middle class.

Their success may ultimately hinge on whether voters see public employees as another privileged special interest or whether they sympathize with the workers standing up for their rights. In Madison, tens of thousands converged on the state Capitol on Saturday for the latest in a series of protests against Walker's initiatives. Smaller demonstrations were held at other statehouses across the country, including several that brought thousands of protesters to the District, Annapolis and Richmond.

Source: GOP governors gambling on challenge to public-employee unions (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/26/AR2011022603971.html?nav=hcmoduletmv&sid=ST2011022502566)

So yes, I believe this is a gamble by the Governors of Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana, Iowa and Wisconsin. The end game here is to use the collective bargaining agreements to break the power of the union in the name of saving money for their budgets.

That is as canard and is being exposed as such.

I find it interesting that these same states are willing to give tax breaks to the businesses that reside in these states, knowing full well that the state's revenues are NOT enough to cover the 'operating costs' of the state. Now, they are looking to the taxpayer to provide pressure on the union(s) to give up their benefits. Unfortunately for these GOP/TP Governors, the public is NOT having ANY of that, and it looks to me that the other governors are backing off of the very hard-line approach to collective Bargaining.

COLUMBUS - Republican state senators said Wednesday they will support allowing unionized state employees to collectively bargain for their wages, a reversal of a bill provision that had drawn thousands of protesters to the Statehouse as part of a wave of demonstrations against similar legislation in Wisconsin and other states.

Source: http://www.mariettatimes.com/page/content.detail/id/533947/GOP-senators-back-off-a-bit.html?nav=5002

WASHINGTON -- With a wary eye on Wisconsin, Republican leaders in several states are toning down the tough talk against public employee unions and, in some cases, abandoning anti-union measures altogether.

Indiana's governor urged GOP lawmakers to give up on a "right to work" bill for fear the backlash could derail the rest of his agenda. In Ohio, senators plan to soften a bill that would have banned all collective bargaining by state workers. And in Michigan, the Republican governor says he'd rather negotiate with public employees than pick a fight.

Source: http://www.thonline.com/article.cfm?id=312944

COLUMBUS -- A day after more than 5,000 protesters filled the Statehouse, Ohio Senate Republicans Wednesday backed away from their goal of prohibiting all collective bargaining on behalf of state employees.
"We will be making a change to allow state workers to bargain for wages. … We've listened to the testimony," Senate President Tom Niehaus (R., New Richmond) said.
"At the end of the day, our goal is to protect taxpayers. We believe with this change we would still be able to do that."

Source: http://toledoblade.com/State/2011/02/24/GOP-feels-heat-of-rally-backs-off-labor-bill.html

Republican leaders in several states softened their attacks on public-employee unions Thursday in an effort to avert the fiery demonstrations that have gripped Wisconsin's capital.
In Ohio, Republican lawmakers agreed to modify a bill that would have banned collective bargaining, allowing state workers to negotiate on wages. But those lawmakers also expanded the law's proposed prohibition on strikes to apply to all public workers, including teachers. The original measure applied the ban on strikes only by public-safety personnel.
The bill could come up for a vote in the full Senate as early as Tuesday, putting Ohio at the forefront of states poised to dramatically curtail the power of public employees.
Michigan's GOP governor offered to negotiate with public employees rather than create political gridlock.
Likewise, Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels called on GOP lawmakers to abandon a bill that would have made it a misdemeanor for an employer to require workers to become or remain members of a labor union. Most of Indiana's Democratic lawmakers have also fled to Illinois and the Republicans who control the House have adjourned until Monday.

Read more: GOP leaders elsewhere back off union attacks - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/nationworld/ci_17477379#ixzz1FJZrl4jc

All except one:

Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker is still holding fast against collective bargaining by public employees, even in the face of massive protests in the state capital.

"I know that collective bargaining has a cost," the Republican governor told NBC's "Meet the Press" via satellite from Madison, Wis.. "If we do not get these changes and the Senate Democrats don't come back, we're going to be forced to do massive layoffs."

Source: http://www.politico.com/blogs/politicolive/0211/Walker_wont_back_down_on_collective_bargaining.html

This whole situation reminds me of the cartoon where a volunteer for hazardous duty is asked for and everyone –except one – steps backward.

Gov. Walker – you are either very brave or very STUPID to stay on your current trajectory. You have been abandoned by your own party to forge ahead on your own while they cover their own butts at your expense.

Don97,

it's not nice to make ignorant uninformed conclusions Don. A little background, my father was a teacher, and then was chairman of the local school board for 12 years, my sister was a prof. at a major Univ. for decades, my whole family was involved with education my friend.

your quote" but unions were necessary to not only negotiate salaries but to improve classroom conditions such as class size, curricula and other important education issues"

hmm.. negotiate salaries, well well. In other words band together to force changes in your favor from the taxpayers. OK Don I see, you need a group mentality to make taxpayers pay you more than before. hmm.. . Are you aware that the rising cost of education in America has only been outdown by the rapid rise of healthcare costs, in other words education has gone up only second to healthcare? With DC schools leading the way at a cost of $286,000 per classroom. That is criminal.

"improve classroom conditions such as class size"

Just goes to show you Don, you have zero idea of what works. Classroom size after grade 5 has ZERO effect on a teachers effectiveness, great teachers are great with 20 or 40 students, it makes no difference, that is fact not fiction. That is a fraud perpetrated by your union, it doesn't hold water my friend. Even NBC debunked that notion in it's education nation segment. The decade long Princeton study which was concluded in the mid00's states clearly that the most important thing in middle and high schools is NOT class size, but SCHOOL SIZE. It is undisputable. When you build giant schools 2000+, you loss the dynamic of knowledge of individual identity which is crucial to behaviour among students. Therefore leading to a individual who is no longer anonymous, but part of something they know they are part of, and can no longer "disappear" within a school setting. but like all things it goes as it goes. we change nothing.

your quote "30 hours conducting classes and 30 preparing material for classes, writing quizzes and exams, preparing demonstrations and laboratory exercises, and grading class work. There was also considerable time involved in dealing with parents, administration and helping students make up work missed while they were absent"

Don, then you are not a real teacher, your credibility on this issue is phony. That never happens, and you know it, or you just made it up. I grew up in a family of teachers Don, your not fooling me. Sell stupid somewhere else we're all full up on here.

JCB

Anyone who believes class size does not matter has no relevant experience in a classroom. I was a high school science teacher and I know from experience that one teacher can effectively conduct a 20-student lesson in the laboratory. 40 students .... forget it. There is never enough laboratory space and, even if space existed for 40 students, one teacher could not assure the safety, learning and discipline for that many students at one time. In the real world, science teachers with 40 students in each class cannot do realistic laboratory lessons and learning becomes less "hands-on" and more from the book ..... to the detriment of students.

Class discussions which can be very effective with 20 students, or even 25 students become chaotic with 40 students in a classroom. Add to that the fact that very few classrooms in this country are designed for 40 students. Beyond 25 or 30 students classrooms become "standing room only" and uncomfortable for students and teachers. Grading load doubles. Imagine yourself grading 200 written reports, exams, or laboratory exercises (40 students X 5 classes per day in a high school or middle school).

Your view of education in this country is biased and out of touch with reality, in spite of your real or imagined family background.

EAE...WHO'S having the tantrum? Didn't see the Governor have a hissy fit, pick up his marbles and go hide.

Aggie-345886

EAE...WHO'S having the tantrum? Didn't see the Governor have a hissy fit, pick up his marbles and go hide.

Not to worry, I bet they are doing just fine being away from their families. Heck, they probably rented out a few brothels like Teddy would have done.

Aggie, I haven't seen Governor Walker make any compromised. He should prove that he want to help lower the deficit for Wisconsin by cutting his own salary and paying more for his own benefits and pension. He would also prove that he is a good leader, not a dictator, if he did this.

huskergal

Aggie, I haven't seen Governor Walker make any compromised. He should prove that he want to help lower the deficit for Wisconsin by cutting his own salary and paying more for his own benefits and pension. He would also prove that he is a good leader, not a dictator, if he did this.

If you believe that then you must also believe the teachers in Wisconsin should return the 4.7% salary increase they received LAST YEAR while EVERYONE ELSE had to cut back. I would treat this as a separate reduction in pay from what has already been offered by the union.

I bet the union would go for the additional reduction as well if it means it saves their "collective bargaining". Heck, once the economy picks up, the unions would just drive the wages and pensions back up to unsustainable levels again. No skin off their teeth right?

Don97,

you like to pick and choose don't you? It is a FACT that classroom size makes ZERO difference to teacher performance in the overall setting. Discuss it with Tom Brokaw's reaserch staff if you disagree. Within you 2% world in "lab" situations that may be true in YOUR district, not in all. Your union has pushed "school classroom size" as a tool to get more teachers in schools giving them more power. Your union is interesed in dues, political power, and promoting teacher wants and demands, and has nothing but contempt for students. Think not?, then why are America's children LAST in almost every area?, despite spending more on education per student that most every other nation. The last time I looked, we were #4 in money spend per child out of all industrialized nations. The statistic's do not back your claim, your stand is a fraud, just like your union is.

I noticed you didn't say a thing about school size, because you know I'm right about that.

your quote "Beyond 25 or 30 students classrooms become "standing room only" and uncomfortable for students and teachers"

That's hogwash Don, I graduated high school in 73, and the average class was well over 30+ per room, and despite this "awful" situation, we had more Ivey league entry's than any HS in our state.

My sister who taught Univ. until 2006, describes today's junior in college as a high school senior in our day. I had a damn good high school education, and there is no way that today's high school average student is close to the average student that our age produced, despite spending % wise a ton more money per student. Good job Don, keep up the good work.

As far as grading "science papers" ever heard of a computer? I don't believe you Don, your arguments sound like talking points, and based on my years you sound like someone besides a teacher.

Unions in the public sector should be illegal since union members not only choose their candidates and fund their campaigns to get them elected, but they negotiate their salaries and pensions with these politicians that wouldn't have the job in the first place if it wasn't for the unions.

No, no conflict of interest there!? (sarcasm)

Daniel Hughes, a married, obese former president of a Port Authority union admitted yesterday in court to embezzling nearly $300,000 in member dues and using the cash for tawdry hook-ups with prostitutes, casino trips and lavish meals bankrupting the account for his 250 members.

source: New York Post

I wouldn't want my future in the hands of wealthy union bosses. To even think this could happen with your local bank would keep you from having an account there. But it's ok to have your futures managed by union bosses?

I bet the union would go for the additional reduction as well if it means it saves their "collective bargaining". Heck, once the economy picks up, the unions would just drive the wages and pensions back up to unsustainable levels again. No skin off their teeth right?

Unions are the people. Walker is a dictator, He will not compromise and will not sacrifice anything of his, to help the cause.

It is very obvious that you and Dude have no idea how unions have bettered your own lives and what is at stake for you and Dude if unions are busted. Unfortunately, I can not teach you about this so if and when it happens hold on as you will get the lesson of your life.

huskergal

Unions are the people. Walker is a dictator, He will not compromise and will not sacrifice anything of his, to help the cause.

Dictators are not voted into office. They also stay in office. Walker was voted into office and will leave when his term is over, unless of course WI votes him back into office again.

If things would be so bad without a union, then how do the other half of the States manage since they are NOT unionized? I won't argue that unions had their place bettering the work environment spawning Federal and State labor laws to protect the citizens. This did happen.

But now after having these laws in place, States without unions are recognizing the advantage of not having them. In fact, I still haven't heard of a single GOOD reason why unions should still be around today. All I hear is "it's our right to collective bargain" but really, putting this belief to the side, why should America be one big union? How exactly does America benefit?

Dude, I'll give you a good reason. Without the unions the employees do not a voice and the workplace relationship is similar to master and slave. My retirement job is like a sweat shop. No body has gotten a raise in the last 10 years. The health insurance policy has been a supplemental plan. The employee for one person pays $60/month and gets hardly any coverage. The company often changed the rules whenever they wanted too. There was no progressive discipline and one could get fired whenever of anything. So we organized and formed a union. Believe me, we will stand up for collective bargaining for what we have now is better than what we had and we still have a long ways to go.

The problem Dude, is that you have never experienced working without unions. Everything you get now is because of unions, whether or not the company is union. Employers hate and fear unions. They do not want them and lie to their employees about them. [Believe me, I heard all their lies while we organizing, before we voted the union in.] Why is this so? Because collectively we have a voice. Your boss or the bosses of large corporations give their employees. middle management, etc. what will keep them satisfied.

I am an educated woman who never worked for a union company until recently. Being in a management or professional position, when offered a salary ihad the choice of accepting it or not having the job. The companies paid me enough to keep me satisfied. I recognize that. The large corporations want to break the unions because without them they are in total control. They no longer have to give you anything to keep you satisfied only what they want to pay you. There will be no contract that can be enforced so they can do whatever they want. I am sorry, but this is the way it is. I also recognize that you will not believe me until you are earning peanuts and have no recourse at all. I recognize that I am wasting my time to tell anyone any of this because those that believe that the unions should be destroyed are not going to accept the truth.

A union is a true democracy. It is totally majority rules. The local is the workers. There is a bargaining unit that is made up of officers of the local, but nothing is enforced until the majority votes the contract in. A democracy. Not a dictatorship that Walker is bringing with his term.

It is our best interest to keep collective bargaining. I know. I learned after age 66. I am so fortunate that I have had the experience to learn just how valuable the unions are to the American people.

America is a union. It is 50 states that joined together to become one union under one body of leadership, The states hold "collective bargaining" in their hands when dealing with the Federal Government.

JCB

If your family of educators gave you the idea that class size does not matter they were not effective educators. You suggest that I could have cut the amount of time I spent grading by using computers. This implies that the testing and laboratory exercises can be graded by computers, e.g., that they are multiple choice or true-false tests. Any good teacher knows that multiple choice and true-false tests measure the lowest form of learning. Science and math knowledge is most effectively measured by problem solving; knowledge in most other subjects is most effectively measured when the students write sentences and paragraphs. Those tests are not graded by computer. Laboratory exercises involve measurements and calculations based on those measurements ..... also not conducive to computer grading.

You are wrong in your assessment of both my age and my profession. I was a teacher and I retired three years ago at age 64. I had classes sizes ranging between 16 and 30 students and I do know the difference. In the smaller classrooms discussion was more fruitful and beneficial for students, there was sufficient room for effective laboratory exercises and the individual attention I was able to provide to students in both laboratory and problem solving sessions resulted in a better learning environment and, yes, students did learn more.

It is true, as you say, that smaller schools are beneficial to the learning environment but to say that class size does not matter is absolutely untrue. I know you would like very much to believe the teacher union conspiracy of decreasing class size in order to "increase power" ..... BS. In all my years of teacher I met not one single teacher who had an interest in increasing the number of teachers for any other reason than to reduce class size so they could teach more effectively.
You are just one of a long line of conservative ranters who believe that they know the secret intentions of people with whom you share no common ideas. You are wrong and there is little hope that you will ever be rational enough to be anything other than wrong.

huskergal

The problem Dude, is that you have never experienced working without unions. Everything you get now is because of unions..

I am self employed 27 years. Tell me O'wise one of union membership how exactly the union helped me? You describe the union as a saviour to America but half isn't unionized and you don't see them protesting. Heck, if it was so bad in those non unionized States you would think those States couldn't hold on to any teachers. You would expect the quality of education to be better one way or the other, but they aren't. The teachers would simply move to a unionized State to live the American dream if being unionized is so great.

America is a union. It is 50 states that joined together to become one union under one body of leadership, The states hold "collective bargaining" in their hands when dealing with the Federal Government.

Yes, but once again I point out the obvious by repeating myself from an earlier post. You chose not to comment. I wrote:

"Unions in the public sector should be illegal since union members not only choose their candidates and fund their campaigns to get them elected, but they negotiate their salaries and pensions with these politicians that wouldn't have the job in the first place if it wasn't for the unions."

Don't you see the conflict of interest? Or do you simply choose not to see it?

A lot of people forget that this bill does not stop the Unions from staying and collectively bargaining wages. It does make it so people that do not want to be part of that collective bargaining are allowed to be hired into those jobs, bargain for their own wages, and not pay Union dues.

How can choice be a bad thing?

Gloryhound

Indeed how can that be all bad?

Gloryhound-848713

A lot of people forget that this bill does not stop the Unions from staying and collectively bargaining wages. It does make it so people that do not want to be part of that collective bargaining are allowed to be hired into those jobs, bargain for their own wages, and not pay Union dues.

How can choice be a bad thing?

It isn't, that's why you won't get an answer to your question from ANY union member regarding this topic.

Sue M-972221

The police now don't want to fulfill their duties either... Wisconsin hang tough.

Wow. Just wow. People who dont agree with you should be stripped of their constitutional rights and escorted off by police?

And you right wing crack pots compare us to hilter? LOL!

I'm sure that Wisconsin is a fine place to live and the people there are wonderful as well, but no way I'd want to live in the middle of this mess with an out-of-control governor with a huge agenda that has nothing to do with budget cutting. Cut the budget, and do the best you can to balance the books but DO NOT bring this other BS like collective bargainng and under the table outsourcing of Wisconsin utilities and resources without competitive bidding or the consent of the citizens. Talk about a wolf in sheeps clothing. This moron will be one and done.

AncientGeek

Guess what your wrong! The Governor is not the one that issued the contempt order the Senate did! They are in contempt just as if they were in contempt of court. I.E. if they are found in the state they can be compelled to appear before the state senate, just like a witness can be compelled to appear before the court. Despite what is going on with this legislation, what the Democrats are doing is profoundly wrong. They are not doing their jobs and are not worthy of the position they have been elected to. Maybe if they hadn't spent the last 8 years over spending, this wouldn't be happening now! We see by national statistics that underfunded state pensions are hurting most of the 50 states, even the ones without collective bargaining agreements or state employees unions. Sure the unions will except the cuts to avoid layoffs, but they will also then threaten a strike to regain what they lost in six months or a year and Wisconsin will be right back in the same boat.

They are not doing their jobs and are not worthy of the position they have been elected to.

Neither is Walker. But of course, he wasn't elected so much as inserted by special interests.

Most of the posters here don't even understand what collective bargaining is and what terrible things are in Walker's bill! They only go against their fellow citizens because FOX entertainment tells them to. If everyone UNDERSTOOD what's in his bill, they'd want it killed too!

In the real world, not government employee lala land, we've been dealing with pay cuts and layoffs for over 2 years. Why should government employees be exempt? Everyone has to sacrifice to get us through this. Government employees unions are greedy, selfish and deserve every ounce of what's coming.

I hereby unilaterally declare Godwin's Law suspended with respect to Walker, Kasich, and the Teabags.

Broken citizen we do understand what collective bargaining is, it's a tool in which to blackmail the taxpayer or all the member unions will strike. This type of protection is WRONG and the Governor has shown that but the unionist want to keep portraying themselves as poor abused workers when they are actually the real fatcats and the liberal media twist the truth so that their fellow dummycrats look like the good guys when actually they are the bad guys and the ones that put the state in the terrible position it's in now.

Again I appluaud all those elected officials who stood up to face and correct the long running problems dufus doyle created and protect the taxpayers from these abusive groups.

All of the teachers who "called in sick" should have been arrested. It is illegal to strike and by school having to be shut down due to so many teachers protesting, that constitutes a strike. Look up the legal definition of a strike in WI if you don't believe me.

Wisconsin Republican't Governor Stupid is a terrorist who is holding hostage the workers of the state. Obama should declare Governor Stupid a Terrorist.

Yes, those union workers are fat cats? They make a living. Do you know what the average starting teacher salary is? It's about 32,000 dollars a year and they are generally on a two-year probationary period. The average teacher is WI makes 52,000 dollars a year. And yes, they have no students in the summer (provided they aren't teaching summer school, which many of them do), but I do not know a single teacher who does not work during the summer. So if this sounds like a cushy job, my question to all of you guys complaining is why don't you do it? You want to know why? Because it is incredibly difficult to teach. If you have kids, do you help them with homework? How often do you get through all the work and still have the kid's attention?

Teachers are underpaid and overworked. They make 50,000 dollars a year for work that most others don't want to do. Yes, they have a union and rightfully so. In WI, there are 264,000 workers in Education Services. If they don't join together, then they are fighting against each other.

But let's not forgot the other part of the issue. While there are many teachers in WI, they aren't the only union workers. There are the bus-drivers, the prison guards, hospital workers, etc. Many union workers would not be able to handle the decreased pay (by way of benefits).

So the real issue here is: why do you feel like the union workers have gotten something better than you? They do not have anything that you could not have. You could also work for a public union. You could try to shape the destinies of our children or ease a patient's discomfort or watch over those that society has deemed unfit. Sounds like fun, huh? Quit complaining about your hard-earned tax dollars going to fund the future of the state or keep the criminals off the street. Do you not want these to continue?

As a last note, states without collective bargaining for unions have the following SAT/ACT combined ranks:

• South Carolina -- 50th
• North Carolina -- 49th
• Georgia -- 48th
• Texas -- 47th
• Virginia -- 44th

Right now, WI is tied for second with MN and behind only IA. Is this the legacy that will occur without collective bargaining? Probably, especially when combined with the billion dollar funding cut for schools. Looking good, WI.

All of the teachers who "called in sick" should have been arrested. It is illegal to strike and by school having to be shut down due to so many teachers protesting, that constitutes a strike. Look up the legal definition of a strike in WI if you don't believe me.

Know why it is illegal to strike in WI? Because of COLLECTIVE BARGAINING. The original purpose of collective bargaining was to settle issues through discussion-without having to resort to strikes. By taking away collective bargaining rights, the government has reneged on its end of the deal. As such, teachers are perfectly justified in striking.

I heard the out of state protesters did over $6 million worth of damage to this historic building and the taxpayers of Wisconsin have to pay. I say, send the bill to those over paid Union Leaders that organized and bussed in these out of state thugs.

They are in contempt and they do have the right to call the police to go get them. That is the law of the state legislature. The gov didnt just say 'hey go arrest them' because he wanted to. Do some research before you say these things. They have locked out the state govt and that does indeed put them into contempt. As for the police not wanting to do their jobs, they should be reprimanded. They are officers of the law and they do not get to pick and choose which duties they carry out.

What's your source, ZipZag?

Seems republicans like to blackmail the middleclass. First they did it in Washington to get more money for the wealthy, now they are doing it to take away from the middleclass directly.

No worries it is just middleclass jobs, thankfully the wealthy get more breaks in his plan to offset the job loss...

Jeez people wake up. How in the world can any party be seen as serious going after the middleclass jobs and unions they belong to in a recession economy that is just coming back?

The unions already agreed to pay more towards their pension and health insurance. So this is totally about busting the union.

Also, what about the other things in the bill? All you people that are against the unions, I guess think that no bid contracts are in the best interest of the budget. How could that be when you are not getting the lowest price. DON"T YOU REALIZE HE WANTS TO PRIVATIZE THE POWER PLANTS WITH NO BID CONTRACTS!!! He did that with the prison guards in Milwaukee county--and we see how well that worked. It did not save money and when sued (by the guards that were fired to make room for the private company) he lost and that cost more money.

To anyone that actually looks at the entire bill and Walkers history it is crystal clear that the governors motives are not altruistic. His motives have nothing to do with the budget and everything to do with politics. And if you didn't bother to find out what is in the entire bill, or research his history just listen to that call with the guy who pretended to be one of the Koch brothers. If you know nothing else that should be enough to show what his motives are and where his loyalties lie.

Howdy; guess what else has been going on in the real world - the States have been cutting back on employees for 5 years. My wife now does her job and the job of two other employees who left and their positions were never filled. Then she gets to cover the front desk once a week too - all for a frozen wage of $10 an hour.

Guess who will be trying to fill those jobs if they ever open up again - all the people bitching about how unfair it is that Union workers have some basic rights.

I don't know where they are getting these stats that the government is paying into some gigantic pension fund for these workers - my wife would only be able to make it on her own (if I died) because we saved every cent we got and dumped it all into refinancing our home, so we could get a mortgage payment that fit her wage.

Teachers are underpaid and overworked.

no they're not. they are paid what the market will bear. i don't know of any other job (out side of pro athlete) who gets an extended period of time off every year. that is in addition to multiple breaks throughout the year. and what is 'overworked'? 7 to 3 in the school (usually with some free period in there) and some additional time at home grading papers. so, what...a 45 hour work week? doesn't sound too bad to me.

So the real issue here is: why do you feel like the union workers have gotten something better than you? They do not have anything that you could not have.

hmmm....same thing could be said about the 'rich' people liberals hate so much. you know, business owners like me who make a 6 figure salary who you can't wait to tax more. why do YOU hate business owners who make a good living? why do you feel that someone who has worked hard and stuck their neck out to own a business has gotten something better than you? they do not have anything you could not have. it's a free country - start your own business.

As a last note, states without collective bargaining for unions have the following SAT/ACT combined ranks:

• South Carolina -- 50th
• North Carolina -- 49th
• Georgia -- 48th
• Texas -- 47th
• Virginia -- 44th

not having collective bargaining is not the reason these states do poorly on standardized tests. there are other factors you are probably not aware of (as i am bc i live in one of them). by your logic, these students don't do as well because we average less than 30 inches of snow per year. or pick some other random difference between these states and wisc and site that as a reason. there is NO correlation between unions and good teachers. in fact, in our state we can jettison bad teachers and keep the good ones without the process taking forever. see, unions protect the weak teachers at the expense of the organization and the students. that's what unions do.

Steve, Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel blog post by the paper's Don Walker. "State says damge to the marble at the Capitol Building could hit $7.5 Million."

Carl it is hard to understand how these republicans can get even one vote let alone get elected. Shocking abuse of middleclass jobs and shocking in-your-face giving to the wealthy in the same proposal.

Amazing.

Norcal, but they did run on this and won the majority of votes from all over the state of Wisconsin. Public Sector Unions, giving money to Democrat Legislators to give them bigger pensions and higer wages than the people who pay the taxes that support them have come to an end. The Voters no longer want to support Democrats that tax and spend, giving benefits to supporters instead of balancing the budget of the state as they are Constitutionally obligated.

I say fire all the Union Workers and hire people not in a Union to do their jobs. With unemployment at the point it is, I'm sure they can find people willing to take the jobs at a lower pay.

itp @ 2.24: I don't think that the correlation between low ACT/SAT scores and the lack of collective bargaining is false. A teacher who is willing to move out of state; say, an UGA graduate, can do better as a teacher where there is collective bargaining. So, we in Georgia get the dregs and a few good teachers who have ties that they can't break. These teachers who stay here are not the best, IMO, and generally are teaching to the standardized tests. The students come out of this education with no education save for how to neatly fill in the circles with their No. 2 pencil. Check out the ajc.com for the Atlanta school systems cheating scandal.

As to Gov. Walker: somewhere in Wisconsin there is a nice farmer who is sharpening one of this best blades to fit a guillotine. After Walker, that doofus senator who called the protestors "slobs" and "not a breed I would associate with" on Last Word. Scum, classist a$$hat. I hope that one of the 1,500 layoffs is the President of the Senate's wife. She got her notice last week.

As to the 41 bullets found in the Capitol: I guess there are a few of the cops who still know how to plant stuff and are loyal to the status quo. To those cops: first they came for the teachers and you said nothing. Your collective bargaining rights are going to disappear next, dudes.

OK, Governor. You'll lay off all those workers if the Unions don't cave to your blackmail. But tell us, if the Union members do cave, how many will you lay off then? You still have to balance the budget for all the goodies you have given away. And the goodies you intend to give away (or sell at bargain basement prices to your cronies) once you are given the godlike powers of your new budget. Can we get a pledge that there will be no layoffs if the union members return? No? Didn't think so.

So a valid poll would ask it in these terms...

Do you feel the unions should get their way and is so you will pay another $XXXX in taxes a year to support them?

Then and only then is it a valid poll. Each question must carry the consequence of the posiotion on the person being asked. Instead the questions are phrased to position good and evil...

ZipZag, my only thought is that when the republicans voted they didn't realise that they ARE the middle class too and it is their own republican union jobs that would be attacked first.

They may have thought only democrats would lose their jobs and they were perfectly fine with that. Well baby look whose coming to dinner...or should I say, look who is going to go without dinner?

I love that on the same plan is a break to the wealthy. Makes me shake my head over the irony of all those republicans voting for their own job losses.

Keep in mind I don't think they will connect the dots to see it anymore than they fought back when republicans in Washington threatened to take all tax breaks from the middleclass if the wealthy did not get a tax break extension (even as the wealthy said they did not want it extended for them.) Oh well...sometimes truth is indeed stranger than fiction.

The Dems hiding out in a cave is in itself blackmail. Why don't all party officials run and hide when the vote doesn't go their way?

Collective bargaining does not allow one to be paid based on the merits of their work, but on how long they have been doing the job in most cases. Americans are not getting what they are paying for. Top performing teachers are not being paid their worth and its really a slap in the face to the public and these top teachers. Budget cuts need to be made and the state governments need the right to make decisions regarding the distribution of tax dollars. If the teachers do not want to be on board..they have degrees...let them test out the free market. If the quality of teachers we get in our schools fall to unacceptable levels we can then re-evaluate the budget and make corrections.

I am amazed by the lack of common sense.

get real and all other anti union folks you have no clue how the American unions have improved your way of life and if you really want to see the difference look at China and the other Oriental countries that have child labor and coal mines blowing up monthly

I'm trying to be nice but there is a limit to the amount of stupidity that I can see without speaking out

Police state. Isn't this what we accuse Liibya and Egypt leaders of doing? It sounds good when we refer to other countries, but when it comes to our house its okay.

Sue M is making me snicker. She knows not one thing about police duties. Apparently, she thinks their job is to work with one of the political parties.

And bopdaddytoo has a point. If you are conservative, please, try to use the brain and put in into perspective. Unlike the moron path being tread these days. Small government does not mean you need to take away union rights. And fiscal responsibility doesn't either. Just cut the budget and stop CRYIN'!

The Unions of old did some great things. The Unions of today are NOT helping our society, they are business entities themselves. Its obvious that the budget cannot be effectively and efficiently "cut" with union interference. Please...use YOUR head.

The police have no business being involved. That seems kind of counter productive to the whole issue of a balanced budget doesn't it? The Gov needs to make the decisions he needs to make as if there were no vote.

Typical of the Republicans - hold citizens as hostages just to get their way. First they hold us hostage so that they can preserve the tax cuts for wealthy. No they hold state workers fate hostage so they can take away from us our most important tool: Collective bargaining.

I am surprised that so many people do not know that the union is the backbone of the workers. Without it we will have nothing for our individual voice will not be heard by our employers. Belaboring this point with these people appears to be useless so we are all on our way back in time - to the 1700's and early 1800's, before people began uprising for better wages and working conditions.

I'm going to continue to say this ... just in case anyone is listening on the Left.

THEY ARE STILL ABLE TO BARGAIN FOR WAGES!

THEY ARE STILL PROTECTED BY FEDERAL CIVIL SERVICE LAWS

THEY CAN STLL PAY THEIR OWN MEMBERSHIP TO THE UNION.

THEY CAN STILL JOIN UNION.

They just can't bargain for pensions, tenure laws, etc.

So, for example, they'd have the pension plans commensurate with what the state could PAY!

If you'd ever have to lay off teachers ... you could keep the BEST as opposed to the most senior. If the most senior IS the best ... NO CHANGE

Simply put ... they still have a better deal than the rest of us!

Our most important tool is not collective bargaining.

How exactly is your individual voice being heard through the union?

I decided to end the argument of whow Scott Walker is working for Big Business or the people of his state. Here is a list of his top contributors:

Political Action Committees ($5000 or more in contributions)

• ABCPAC-WIS
• AT&T Wisconsin Employee PAC (formerly SBC)
• Building a Better WI/Wisconsin Builders Association
• Concerned Realtors Committee
• Deere & Company PAC – WI
• Eli Lilly and Company PAC
• FONEPAC Telecommunications & Computers
• Friends & Neighbors of Robin Vos
• Friends of Alberta Darling
• HNTB Holdings Ltd PAC
• KochPAC Natural Resources
• Managed Health Services/Centene PAC

• Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance
• Operating Engineers 139 PAC
• People for Rebecca Kleefisch
• Realtors PAC
• Republican Party Milwaukee Co
• Republican Party of Wisconsin
• Tavern Industry PAC
• TDS Telecom
• Wal-Mart Stores/WAL-PAC
• WellPAC Wellpoint Inc
• WI Credit Union League Action Fund (WCULAF)
• WI Dental PAC (WIDPAC)
• WI Insurance Alliance PAC
• WI Pipe Trades PAC

Employers ($5000 or morein contributions)

• ABC Supply Co
• Agrecol Corp
• Allen Edmonds Shoes
• AMK Concepts & Services
• Anew Health Care Services Inc
• AO Smith Corp
• Apache Stainless Steel
• Artisan Partners
• Atlantic DQ
• Audio Implements/GKC
• Badger Meter
• Baraboo Growth
• Bevco Ergonomic Seating
• Blomquist Benefits Consulting
• Boerke Co Inc
• Bradley Foundation
• Brian Retzlaff Trucking
• Briggs & Stratton
• Burke Properties
• Burlington Northern Santa Fe…
• Call Solutions
• Campbell Wrapper Corp
• Carpenter
• CD Smith Construction
• Chambers & Owen
• Charro Restaurante
• Charter Manufacturing
• Church Mutual Insurance
• Cobalt Partners LLC
• Commonwealth Development Corp…
• Continental Properties Co Inc
• County Concrete
• Couri Insurance Agency
• Custom Pak Products
• EBY-Brown Co
• Einhorn Associates
• Emergency Medicine Specialists
• Endeavors Group
• Fabco Equipment Inc
• Fashion Angels Enterprises
• Feather Larson & Synhorst…
• Fiduciary Management
• First American Funding
• Fisher Barton Inc
• Glenora Co
• GMR Marketing
• Gogebic Taconite LLC
• Gold Leaf Development
• Hal Leonard Publishing
• Hammes Co
• Harris Associates
• Hay Creek Pallett
• Heartland Advisors
• Hexagon Investments
• High Crossing Development Corp
• Holton Brothers Construction
• Horton Group
• Hovde Financial
• Hy Cite Corp
• I-Robot
• Iconica
• Inpro Corp
• Insight Industries

• Irgens Development Partners
• Johnson Controls
• Johnsonville Foods
• JSD Professional Services Inc
• Kapur & Associates
• KBS Construction
• Koss Corp
• Krier Foods
• Kwik Trip
• Lorman Education Services
• Lubar & Co
• M&I Bank
• Meissner, Tierney, et al
• Michels Corp
• Midwest Neurosurgical
• Milksource
• MillerCoors
• Minnesota Wild
• MJ Construction Inc
• Morrison Creek Cranberry
• Nicholas Company Inc
• Nova Surgical LLC
• Orthopaedic Associates of…
• PACUR
• Panduit Corp
• Paper Machinery Corp
• Payne & Dolan
• Pinstripe Inc
• Plastic Surgery Group
• Prent Corp
• Promotions Unlimited
• RCI FirstPathway Partners
• Reiman Publications
• Richardson Industries
• Rite Hite Corp
• Roehl Transport
• Salomon Smith Barney
• Sargento Inc
• SC Johnson & Sons
• Schneider National
• School choice
• Sendik’s Food Market
• Shannon Sales Inc
• SIG Financial Holdings
• Specialty Underwriters
• St John Properties Inc
• Standard Process Laboratories
• Stark Investments
• Super Steel Products
• Tamarack Petroleum Co
• Tankcraft Corp
• ThedaCare
• Tries & Rice
• Uihlein Wilson Architects
• US Counseling Service
• US Oil Co
• V Duane Rath Foundation
• Wausau Homes
• Wausau Paper
• West Allis Salvage
• West Bend Clinic
• Zenith Tech

It is now up to you the individual to decide. Who benefits the most from ending collective bargaining, the corps listed above or the people of the state?

Norcal2 Seems to me that the Republicans are there with their constituents and doing what they get paid to do. Where are your 14 Democrats? In Chicago, one of the most corrupt cities in the world. It also seems that those 14 Democrats abandoned the people that supported them.

If anyone in this country done what the union teachers, State Workers have done in Wisc., with the aide of Union Thuggs, they would be fired and arrested.

How exactly is your individual voice being heard through the union?

The union is the members. Our voices are heard collectively. The negotiating team of the local union, and each union has many of this making up the whole, are the officers of the local. They sit and negotiate the terms and bring it back to the member to vote on. It doesn't pass unless the majority votes for it. A union is a true democracy.

Your voices are controlled, nothing more.

Zip Zag,

Please direct me to any place where the governor or any other GOP politician even suggested to the people of Wisconsin that they intended revoke collective bargaining. All polls suggest that few would have been elected if in fact they indicated this intent. Wisconsin residents didn't hear anything in the runup to elections about corporate tax breaks or balancing the budget on the backs of 300,000 citizens out of a population of 5.7 million. They also were never told that it would be made illegal for them to raise local property taxes to offset Draconian cuts to education. This governor and legislature more resemble Stalin and the Dumas.

JKH

OK, let's wave the magic wand and give you what you want, all these evil corporations are gone and it's just you, the government, and your church left to sit around and share warm hugs. You'll have to hug cause it will get cold without energy companies and you'll have no homes for shelter but that's ok because you don't need a pantry any more to hold the food you can't get from a grocery store and by the way you have some hungry neighbors who's jobs disappeared in the process... I'm sure the government will feed all of you though. It's strange that Democratic legislators don't walk out because they are not allowed to vote FOR a ban on PAC or Union Money for political parties.

ZipZag

"State officials claimed that damage to the Capitol from the days of demonstrating reached $7.5 million. But no one could back up that figure with any evidence, and some scoffed at it."

You should really quote the entire statement. Telling only what you want is a lie by omission.

Oh Wisconsin, and all the thousands and thousands of dollars I have spent on thee. Your sunsets over Green Bay may be beautiful, but no more for me!

I will go to another place and spend my recreational duckets where I feel they are better managed. As long as Scott Walker is in charge, I will not step foot upon your soil. And while that may be fantastic news for some of you repubs out there, I'm just happy knowing I won't be supporting you for a long, long time.

ZipZag

Steve, Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel blog post by the paper's Don Walker. "State says damge to the marble at the Capitol Building could hit $7.5 Million.

I know you can't honestly believe painters tape caused $7.5 million of damages... Are they really able to slip an easy one like this by you or do you just go along with it because you have no other substance to your debate? I'm just curious

Cue,

This has nothing to do with the economy of Wisconsin it is solely about breaking unions and the 2012 elections. Since The Citizens United decision of the top 10 donors in the midterms were seven Republican and three Democratic, the unions the GOP is trying to break are the three main Democratic donors breaking these union would make the GOP 10 for 10. The union has offered every concession necessary to support the budget while the Governor refuses to even consider, each day they find another BS reason to refuse negotiation. If they manage to kidnap a Democratic Senator or two and force passage they will face referendum challenges which will without a doubt overturn their legislation.

JKH

ZipZag

The Voters no longer want to support Democrats that tax and spend,

Laughable. What you fail to see is that Republicans tax you far more painfully than they do the wealthy, excuse corporations from any tax liability whatsoever, and donate the proceeds to the wealthy in the form of tax cuts.

You pay taxes and you feel it. The wealthy can pee that much money in a day and never notice.

Why are you willing to be a chump for these people -- and then shill for them to boot?

I'm siding with the "disappearing" Democratic senators....it appears they ARE doing what their constituents want them to do, which is to NOT vote on doing away with collective bargaining. The unions have already giving many concessions as to pension pay, time off, healthcare, etc., why is the Governor still pushing SO hard to do away with the collective bargaining? Do you think it's because the Koch Brothers have him in their hip pocket, and he knows that if he does their bidding, he can possibly be re-elected next time around? You go Democrats....hide out and do what your constituents hired you for...I applaud you for being the only ones in Wisconsin doing your job!!

Cue, sorry, Wisconsin is the only state who hasn't figured it out, apparently. Conservative governors cut budgets all the time, and the unions do what they do. Its not called interference, its called representation. And sorry, union rights as they stand are not enough to prevent the budget from being balanced.

Cut the teacher jobs. Cut the tax breaks. Cut all the entitlements from the right and left, because it has nothing to do with the right and the left. Its like a couple arguing whether they should get rid of the yacht or sleep away camp for the kids, when they can afford neither. And then one parent being overly obsessed with how much the camp personel want to get paid. Um, doesn't matter.

Jim Hayes, you seem to be better educated than I about WI. I can only speak in generalities here and political parties aside I do not side with the teachers or the union on collective bargaining.

But I guess to flat out take away the right.. I may be changing my stance a bit. The Unions do have the right to bargain. The State has the right to make layoffs according to budgetary constraints. My question here would be.. is the state budget balanced?

I respect the opposing views on this.. its a hard thing to swallow in many cases. I just dont agree.

ZipZag,

I just checked your source, and now the state is backing off the figure of 7.5 million. No one is now even sure if there was ANY damage.

Your voices are controlled, nothing more.

By whom may I ask? My voice is controlled by no one but me and it the same with every other member in the union. We all vote and the majority rules. However, one must vote in order for his(her) vote to count.

Every vote counts is some thing a lot of people do not understand. By not casting you vote you are voting with the majority, even if you are against it. It is important to cast one's vote; whether it be union or government.

I'm quite curious as to why my comment was collapsed. All I did was point out that the starting salary of our servicemen and women was around $18,000.00 and they are putting the lives on the line, and in some case losing, so unions can have the right to protest that they want more.

Apparently some people can't handle reality.

I think that the layoffs are the alternative not blackmail. The problem needs to be solved, it has been shelved way to long.

It's hilarious how the libbies are treating the AWOL dems. Imagine if the reverse was true? LOL! The lamestream, liberal media would be having a field day if the gop skipped town. But I have read / watched nothing from the liberal media condemning these kooks for being p_ssies and not doing their job.

Liberals! LMFAO!!

Wisconsins Dems ARE doing their job by stopping action on this awful bill!

RedneckCEO

It's hilarious how the libbies are treating the AWOL dems. Imagine if the reverse was true?

Two years of "Hell, NO!" from the minority Repubbies in Congress and you're pointing fingers?

So, when Abraham Lincoln jumped out of a second story window to avoid a vote, was he also a traitor? Was he also shirking his duties? Or was he, like these Democratic legislators, actually DOING his job by representing the best interests of his constituents? You ill-informed posters should actually consider facts and actual logic before posting your vitriol. I'm sure most of you won't be satisfied until voting is passe and we instead just bid on our legislators...

By the way, if the state is in so much trouble and utter disaster will happen unless ordinary folks give up their rights, why was it OK for Walker to enact tax cuts? Very Republican, but also pretty stupid...one might think things aren't really that bad, or Walker wouldn't do such a thing, huh?

Rorschach

Two years of "Hell, NO!" from the minority Repubbies in Congress and you're pointing fingers?

At least they showed up to work each day! I'd be more respectful if they had stones enough to show up and vote NO!

The party of NO-Show ... Babies!

Astonished, are you that dense? The fact is, their "no" votes would be meaningless, as the Republican/Corporate Party has enough of a majority to pass Walker's corporatist bill with absolutely no Democratic votes; that's why they are not present, as the only way to stop this insipid bill from being enacted is to not allow a quorum to be present. I know this represents logic and all that weird stuff you pretend conservatives detest, but try to get a grasp of it.

Welcome back to first grade where we call people names. I don't know why it is people are so upset with unions because they perceive union members to have something they don't. Really? How old are we. Look at the historical statistics- unions have made workers rights better. They set an example for all workers. Well, maybe not those who are at the top....just the rest of us. This talk is silly, especially given Walker's entire bill. The guy doesn't even have a college degree....hmmmm. Maybe he shouldn't be making decisions about things he didn't understand. And, besides. now that he is being honest about his intentions, all polls show that Wisconsin doesn't want him anymore. I think the party of "No-Show....Babies!" might be onto something.

The name calling says it all. Brilliant.

The Oath the Legislators of Wisconsin pledged"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God." Does anyone see anything wrong with those Politicians not doing the business they are paid to do, being charged with dereliction of duty or in the least, fraud?

I suppose you probably think you made a point. You did not. You are probably not capable of doing so, and it would be in your best interest to cease such attempts. You may now continue cackling madly to yourself, a practice that seems to suit you quiet well.

WOW!! the Dems are 'brave' for running away?? It was a much different story when the wicked witch of the west, pelousi stood to a mike and made the statement 'WE will shove this bill down their throats whether they like it or not!'. I don't remember any of the repubs leaving washington to avoid it, they knoew the outcome and what it would mean, and they were correct. The 'brave' dems and libs would go back, stand with their constituents, knowing those that sign this are signing their own term limit, if the voters so agree come next election. Then they can reverse this and move on. To run and hide is absolutely wrong, Wisconson should hold a special election and replace those that are shirking their duties.

Oh, and those of you that berate Fox news (and yes, I watch them all to get both sides) they were the first to break the news that the unions were willing to sit and come to terms with the governor on what he wanted and yet this idiot refuses to meet! Now, I have no love, believe me, for unions, but this is just wrong on principle! He should let them have a chance to make the contracts work with the budget for the state workers, yeah, they ar 'public servants' but they are our countrymen and I'm sure they would feel the same way for any other peoople in this position. Good luck to those up there, and God Bless you in your time of trouble!

Time to recall Gov. Walker for his insolence! How can he say he represents the people when he wants to fire them after giving away the surplus WI had to corporations as tax breaks?

To ZipZag

Maybe the Legistlators of Wisconsin feel they are defending the Constitution of the United States (which represents the people of the United Sates) against domestic enemies, just as they pledged.

I think it's time for the fleeing Dems to call his bluff. There is no way that is a reasonable demand. Hell, push to have the Dems fleeing fired or replaced, but to threaten to hang 1500 people out to dry is just cold hearted. So, I say call his bluff and let the chips fall where they may. This is just another power play and I am sure he will be on another phone call laughing it up with his private sector buddies. Just maybe he will get that trip to CA after all, since he is doing such a good job sticking it to the people of WI.

If Gov. Walker says that he has to layoff 1500 people to balance the budget before the union members come back, what makes anyone think that he won't still maintain the need to lay off a whole bunch if the union members do capitulate? I wouldn't trust that man for anything.

It is no bluff if he does as he says. He's obligated under the state constitution to balance the State's budget. He tried to do it through the State Legislature, but failed to have a quorum. He has only one other option, to reduce the payroll through layoffs. The Dems are calling his "bluff" and their Union Constitutents will be layed off!

Rallyforge... speaking of cookie jars

A government worker, a CEO and a Tea Partier are sitting at a table. On the table are twelve cookies. The CEO reaches over and grabs eleven cookies. He takes a bite, looks at the Tea Partier and says:

"Watch out for that government fella, he wants part of your cookie."

Do you know what the average starting teacher salary is? It's about 32,000 dollars a year and they are generally on a two-year probationary period.

They knew or should have known what saleries for teachers were before they pursued it as a career.

zipzag It would be nice if you provided links and proof before speading you BS

I am all for this bill. Balance the budget and work to rid ourselves of the obstacles that impede the process and cost us $$. The Unions have not made substantial progress to the lives of our societies in many years. Individuals..yes. At this point the pendulum has shifted and they are now impeding progress.

I am also against the tax cuts. The two have to go hand in hand. The best thing we can do for the long term stability and financial growth of state and country is to start working a black balance sheet.

Little Sure Shot: you got yours, so it's ok to just trash people for what they choose as a career, right? So teachers get paid crap, but they have to educate the future doctors, lawyers, garbage men and women, etc., but it's their fault that they choose a career that affect the lives of so many people. They should just all work in the private sector and make a lot of money and then they would have no room to complain about making crap for pay and putting up with the sorry ass products that take up space in the classroom. Please tell me I am reading your response incorrectly and if I am, I am sorry for any offense in advance, however I think you were just being an ass. There is a place in our society for everyone and that includes teachers that are now seen as the enemy, when parents are the one that should take a greater role in their children's lives to ensure that they are going to school well equip to learn and not be a hindrance to other kids trying to learn. PARENTS, because on like teachers who have to be certified to teach, parents do not have to be certified to reproduce. So next time you are looking down at teachers, think about how you got to where you are right now, because I am sure one or two teachers had some sort of an effect on your life.

Left wing Nut Job

The fact is, their "no" votes would be meaningless, as the Republican/Corporate Party has enough of a majority to pass Walker's corporatist bill with absolutely no Democratic votes; that's why they are not present, as the only way to stop this insipid bill from being enacted is to not allow a quorum to be present.

OH yes, my friend, I DO GET IT! It's called an election and to quote the Big O as he was cramming crap down our throat for two years "We Won"!

But the Repubs showed up to work each day, did what they could. These Dems are, frankly, anti-American as they have chosen to NOT participate in the democracy. I'd have more respect for them if they had enough stones to state their case in the Senate as opposed to running and hiding like spoiled children. Babies!!

Whatever respect I had for them is gone!

Are good governor's first order of business after taking office was to give corporations 130 million dollars in tax breaks, his second order of business was to get teachers, snow plow drivers, sanitation workers and secretaries to pay for it! The Republican Party is giving us nothing more then window dressing for so called budget reduction both here in Wisconsin and in our Nation's capital... all the while fighting the culture wars! When a bill to reduce oil subsidies came up for a vote in Washington - to a man they (Republicans) voted to continue the practice of giving subsidies (corporate welfare) to the most profitable companies on the Earth! This all the while they were going after heating oil allowances for senior citizens, Planed Parenthood and Big Bird! The projected 2012 Federal budget (non-defense discretionary spending) is projected to be 610 billion. This measly proposed 4 billion Republican reduction in spending (chump change) is to be payed for on the backs of seniors, the poor, working Americans and what is left of the Middle Class. If these guys (Republicans) were serious we could start with axing the Bush era tax cuts (800 billion over the next ten years), oil subsidies (462 billion over the next 10 years) and are bloated defense budget! Defense spending in 2011 toped 268.5 billion dollars. With a 30% yearly reduction over ten years we could save over 2 TRILLION DOLLARS! But these culture war warriors think if BIG Bird exits stage left some how they are doing the job they were elected to do. Republicans (state and Federal) have only one strategy in mind - BLAME THE VICTIMS! Daddy's WAR (un-paid for), irrational deregulation, giving tax breaks to corporations to send jobs overseas, unfunded tax breaks for the rich, corporate fraud and a long list of crimes against the Middle Class and now they want working Americans to pay for it!

Simply put The democrats are not noble and doing this because they believe in the unions, they are doing this because they believe in the money the unions as a whole give them. The people voted in a majority republican house and sentate and the democrats are acting like children. Let the law pass, let the people get pissed off and come next election see who loses their seats.

And the Walker is not threatening anyone or trying to blackmail them. What he is saying is something has to be done to fix this budget and we have these two choices at this moment. if you will not do your job so choice one can be passed, then we have to default to choice two.

Again, everyone should not get the same raise nor the same "bonus" benefits that are secured using collective bargining. Not everyone does their job and everything should be based upon merit. When i go into any state agency I see some workers who do their job and work hard to do it well and others who are just skimming along waiting for retirement knowing they cant be fired, they will get raises whether they do what they are supposed to or not... hey wait.. that is apparently what the democrats think.

havelina Gov. Walker is doing the job he was elected to do. Those 14 Democrats are not doing the job they were elected to do. And you want Gov. Walker recalled? I say recall those 14 Democrats, that are in the hot tub in Chicago and not doing what they were elected and paid to do.

No, he is doing the job his contributors want him to do. He is ignoring the people who elected him and is about to destroy their way of living.

If these public workers are so valuable and the taxpayers of Wisconsin know this why don't the Dem senators come back so the GOP can have their vote? That way the Wisconsin taxpayers won't be fooled by GOP tricks and will see them vote to do away with collective bargaining. When the GOP is voted out, never to be seen again in Wisconsin politics, and the governor is impeached the new Democrat controlled government can grant them their collective bargaining back. This is a win/win for the Democrats and the unions! What is wrong with you people?

It called the MAJORITY RULES! The Dems need to show up a represent the people. Do their jobs and quit acting like children.

Every poster that states "the republicans in DC didnt "run away" so the Wisconsin democrats are wrong should realize that if the Republicans in DC could have stopped healthcare legislation by not having a quorom, they would have left town in a second. dont fool yourselves.

The Democrats are protecting the inflated pensions of directors, superintendents, and the top 1%.

The Republicans are protecting the rights of corporations and tax cuts for the top 1%.

Meanwhile all any of you people can do is argue with each other while the rich aholes take everything.

Some of you say the Republicans are the party of the rich but isnt George Soros, Warren Buffet, and Bill Gates all Democrats?

3 of the most cutthroat sharks every to exist and all card carrying LIBERALS!!!

WAKE UP AMERICA. YOU'VE BEEN DUPED!

Again. the union is not the voice of the individual. The union tells you what to do, not the other way around. Its much like the role of the current Federal Government, the agenda is to tell you what to do.

I tend to think our ways of living need to be "destroyed" and rebuilt on stronger foundation.

Evidence that the unions have ruined education is everywhere, but liberals refuse to see it. The only way to fix education, and our economy, is to get the union and the Fed Gov out of it.

http://www.waitingforsuperman.com/synopsis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1r-r6iLBEI&NR=1

ZipZag 3.11

The Democratic Senators are doing their constitutional job, representing their constituents.

Interesting to note that the citizens in Wisconsin are beginning recall efforts for the 8 Republican Senators eligible to be recalled (only needing to be successful in three instances for the Democrats to take control of the State Senate).

Interestingly, the call for recalling the 14 Democratic Senators has been initiated by a group in Utah.

http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/19/recall-in-wisconsin/

http://theuptake.org/2011/02/25/out-of-state-group-joins-effort-to-recall-wisconsin-14/

http://www.postcrescent.com/article/20110302/APC0101/303030015/1044/APC0904

The results of all these recall attempts will be very telling as to what the citizens of Wisconsin truly want to have happen.

The real issues and facts concerning the Wisconsin protest.

http://www.themudflats.net/2011/03/01/boots-on-the-ground-scott-walker-cuts-the-cheese/

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/22/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-he-campaigned-his-/

Given Governor Walker's track record, I have no doubt that he will lay off public employees regardless if his bill passes or not. He has no credibility with the citizens of Wisconsin or the rest of the country.

Astonished,

Unamerican like Lincoln, or the Pa. and Mass. legislators who fled Constitution votes in the 1780s or the Texas Legislators who tried to stop Delay's gerrimandering. Being willing to risk jail or position because you know your opposition is perpetrating evil is anything but unamerican. You would doubtless have stood shoulder to shoulder with the Pinkertons or the union busters at haymarket or Reagan when he put the safety of every airline passenger at risk to break a union. Perhaps your heroes were Jack Whitehead, James Farley or the Berghoff Brothers. Attacking unions has been a GOP sport for 125 years no sense stopping now.

JKH

O-M-G, Is that a real youtube video???

have any of these union employees considered this. is it better to be employed as a nonunion person without having dues taken out to pay for some rich cats in limos or to be an unemployed union member still paying dues to the rich cat in the limo. give it a thought. i could never figure what advantage a union claimed with strikes. people out of work for weeks or months and never getting enough back to make up for the lost income. sometimes actually being put out of work permanently due to closing shops.

I wonder what SiFi magazine ( Marty ) read that Pelosi comment in... if all you can do is lie and you cant tell the truth dont expect others to take you seriously.. it gets pretty stupid when the only thing you have yo offer is a lie.... Mike Huckabee the preacher that bears false witness is another example of the only thing the repubs got going for them

To those who criticize Governor Walker for doing what has to be done let me remind you of a few things.

1. He's not killing unions he's just limiting their ability to blackmail taxpayers with every contract and he's trying to bring their excessive comp. packages back in line with the real world.

2. Because Wisconsin has higher than average taxes for many years (due to public workers costs) he is trying to lure companies into Wisconsin to create jobs ( simple economics)

3. Because you need a B.S. or B.A. to get any job today the teachers that are let go always have the option to work in the private sector if they can handle it, if not wait for a fatcat teacher to retire.

4. Anyone who supports the cowardly dummycrates who don't have the backbone to stand and do their job or those that support the teachers just for the sake of being in a union without acknowledgeing the fact that the taxpayers can't afford them anymore should not criticize as their moral and intellectual centers are extremely eroded.

Recall Walker !!!

hey at least they helped make the cookies, what the hell makes the union think they have any right to a piece of cookie at all ? if the corporations get greedy we don't buy their products and we don't have to have an act of congress to do it !

Government is broken. Our so-called Representatives listen to a few hundred phone calls or read a few hundred emails and do what their campaign donors tell them to do and call it law.

There is an average of 700,000 people in each state district--really doubt all of them have been asked their opinion.

The budget would be balanced with the entire legislature kicked out of office. Let the mayors form a council and they decide what to do.

Why is it when the Republicans do something wrong, they counter with personal attacks and bring up Pelosi or somebody on the Democrat side. They can't accept any responsibility for anything.

This type of political shenanigans reminds me of the monkey tree. There is a group of monkeys in a tree, the monkey at the top is looking down at all the other monkeys smiling up at him. The monkeys in the lower part of the tree are looking up and seeing only a$$holes. Regardless of what the GOP says it needs to balance the budget, one thing is true for sure, the middle class in America has been absolutely mislead, lied to and pilfered by nearly every politician in office or that held office. Revolution will come, no doubt about that, it's just a matter of when now.

Walker is the state's executive branch. These Dems are part of the legislative branch and come under their own rules---not his. This isn't WI.'s only business. There are other issues that need to be addressed. If you think that stopping the state's legislative process completely over this 1 bill is wise to do----what if every legislator in every state and the Fed just up and did the same thing----just lock government up completely. Doesn't sound too good---does it? NO, a bad precedence is being set if our reps can up and do this without repercussion. This just can't be allowed to happen for either party. We are a majority rule society. I was and still am strongly opposed to HCR. Polls say the majority still is. I guess the Repubs should have walked off on that one?

Walker has one goal: privatizing every job he can. That's the #1 business-community goal. The more government jobs that are privatized, the more profit big business makes. Once education is privatized, the uneducated masses can do factory work and it will once again be profitable to manufacture in the US. The more profit big business makes, the fatter economically the 1%ers get. They want to take America back to the days of the Robber Barons and sweatshops.

What won't be so great for them is when they have to face the kinds of riots that resulted in trust-busting and reforms the last time they got their way. They have been stupid enough to make automatic weapons easily available to the general public because all they could see was the profit potential. Once the unemployed and underemployed realize they've been duped, expect to see an unholy union of desperate citizens making use of their personal arsenals. Great job of destroying a great nation for profit all of you 1%er sunshine patriots. (Of course, at that point the fat-cats that are responsible will have moved to someplace civilized, where the lower class know their place. You know--like Korea, or Uganda.) /sarc...I hope!

ZipZag,

Although I may agree with your position, it is always important to be accurate. The oath of office you quoted is for a Federal position (Senator, Representative) not for a State office. The oath for elected or appointed Wisconsin officials is as follows:

"I, (official's name), having been elected or appointed to the office of (title) swear (or affirm) that I will support the constitution of the United States and the constitution of the State of Wisconsin, and will faithfully and impartially discharge the duties of said office to the best of my ability. So help me God."

ZipZag

The Oath the Legislators of Wisconsin pledged"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic

And that's exactly why the WI Dems are doing what they're doing --

Walker and the Teabags are a domestic enemy. They've commandeered the legislative process. They have no respect for established law; they have no respect for those who've shed blood in this country to establish fair labor practices. They are tin-hat tyrants on the take from the ultimate in special interests -- big money.

If the Repubs won't honor their responsibility to debate the issue and reach a reasonable solution, it's up to the Dems to protect the interests of their constituents by whatever peaceful means they can.

What was it you Repubs were whining about re: healthcare -- something, oh... yeah. That's right. Shut out. I remember.

What a bunch of sociopaths the right have become.

zigzag
Obviscating isnt a word, and if you meant obfuscating it doesnt work (by definition) in the context in which youve used it, but Im really impressed at your attempt to use big words.

Wisconsin and Collective bargaining

I have been watching the situation in Wisconsin pretty closely. We have a situation where a sitting Governor in Wisconsin is trying to take away the Collective Bargaining rights of Public Unions (with some exceptions). Many on this blog applaud what Gov. Walker is doing and think it is the right thing to do.

I disagree.

However, just disagreeing is not enough. In trying to understand all I can about Collective Bargaining, I did some research into the matter, and I concentrated my research in Wisconsin, which is the flash point at the moment. As with any research, I wanted to be sure that I understood COMPLETELY what Collective Bargaining is and what its purpose is supposed to be. So, here is a pretty good definition of Collective bargaining:

Collective bargaining allows workers and employers to reach voluntary agreement on a wide range of topics. Even so, it is limited to some extent by federal and state laws. A collective bargaining agreement cannot accomplish by contract what the law prohibits. For example, a union and an employer cannot use collective bargaining to deprive employees of rights they would otherwise enjoy under laws such as the Civil Rights statutes (Alexander v. Gardner-Denver Co., 415 U.S. 36, 94 S. Ct. 1011, 39 L. Ed. 2d 147 [1974]). Collective bargaining also cannot be used to waive rights or obligations that laws impose on either party. For example, an employer may not use collective bargaining to reduce the level of safety standards it must follow under the occupational safety and health act (29 U.S.C.A. §§ 651 et seq.). Furthermore, the collective bargaining agreement is not purely voluntary. One party's failure to reach agreement entitles the other to resort to certain legal tactics, such as strikes and lockouts, to apply economic pressure and force agreement.

source: The Free Dictionary (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/collective+bargaining)

So far so good. The problem in Wisconsin is how the Governor is approaching the Collective Bargaining issue. There is legislation that has already passed in the Assembly that would limit or excise the level of Collective bargaining that can be done by the State (the Employer) and the Union. I see a MAJOR problem with the Governor's stance on the issue. Where, then, would there be a problem? There is a problem with Good Faith Bargaining, as described in this definition:

Mandatory Subjects of Bargaining Although the parties need not bargain over every conceivable topic, they must bargain in good faith over mandatory subjects of bargaining, which include wages, hours, and other "terms and conditions of employment" (29 U.S.C.A. § 158[d]). Because these mandatory subjects are very broad, courts over the years have attempted to set standards for determining whether a specific bargaining topic is mandatory. Generally, terms and conditions of employment encompass only issues that "settle an aspect of the relationship between the employer and the employees" (Allied Chemical & Alkali Workers of America v. Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co., 404 U.S. 157, 92 S. Ct. 383, 30 L. Ed. 2d 341 [1971]).

If one party wishes to bargain over a mandatory subject, it is an unfair labor practice for the other to refuse. Other topics are permissive subjects of bargaining, and it may be an unfair labor practice for a party to demand bargaining over them (NLRB v. Wooster Division of Borg-Warner Corp., 356 U.S. 342, 78 S. Ct. 718, 2 L. Ed. 2d 823 [1958]). Thus, although the parties must bargain to an impasse over mandatory subjects of bargaining before implementing unilateral changes, they may change permissive subjects unilaterally without bargaining and cannot be forced to bargain over such changes.

source: The Free Dictionary (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/collective+bargaining)

The emphasis shown in both definitions are mine. So if Collecting Bargaining REQUIRES each party to negotiate, why is the Governor refusing to negotiate?

Governor Walker made it clear again in a news conference Monday evening that he will not negotiate on his budget repair plan. The governor spoke at the Capitol, repeating his refusal to accept compromises.

"This is about balancing our budget, not only today but balancing our budgets both at the state and local government for years to come. If you don't make the changes we're proposing for collective bargaining in this budget repair bill, we make it very difficult for local governments in particular to balance their budget in the next biennium in the next years to come," the governor said.

Source: http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=14071917

And the Governor’s stance was reported here:

MADISON — Gov. Scott Walker said Friday he wants to end collective bargaining for nearly all public employees because the state is broke and there’s no point negotiating with the unions when there is nothing to offer.

Source: http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/article/20110211/WDH0101/110211124/Governor-says-he-won-t-negotiate-with-unions

Part of the Collective bargaining process is that BOTH sides actually negotiate to get the desired result that both can live with. Here is the definition of Good Faith bargaining and the DUTY to do so:

Duty to Bargain in Good Faith During the bargaining process, the parties are not required by law to reach agreement. They must, however, bargain in good faith (29 U.S.C.A. § 158[d]). Although good faith is a somewhat subjective concept, courts will look to the entire circumstances surrounding bargaining, including behavior away from the bargaining table such as pressure and threats (NLRB v. Billion Motors, 700 F.2d 454 [8th Cir. 1983]). Most authorities agree that an absolute refusal to bargain constitutes bad faith (Wooster).

source: The Free Dictionary (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/collective+bargaining)

Now would you consider someone who is telling the unions to 'give up their collective bargaining' and no, I will not negotiate' as someone who is bargaining in good faith, as is their DUTY to do so?

Gov. Walker FAILS on this count.

So what is REALLY going on here? What is the REAL end game here and why is this governor so intransigent? We may have our answers in this article from the Washington Post:

With many working Americans financially battered by the recession and the years of economic uncertainty that preceded it, those leaders are aiming to be seen as friends of the middle class even as they challenge workers who themselves are middle class.

Their success may ultimately hinge on whether voters see public employees as another privileged special interest or whether they sympathize with the workers standing up for their rights. In Madison, tens of thousands converged on the state Capitol on Saturday for the latest in a series of protests against Walker's initiatives. Smaller demonstrations were held at other statehouses across the country, including several that brought thousands of protesters to the District, Annapolis and Richmond.

Source: GOP governors gambling on challenge to public-employee unions (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/26/AR2011022603971.html?nav=hcmoduletmv&sid=ST2011022502566)

So yes, I believe this is a gamble by the Governors of Wisconsin, Ohio, Indiana, Iowa and Wisconsin. The end game here is to use the collective bargaining agreements to break the power of the union in the name of saving money for their budgets.

That is as canard and is being exposed as such.

I find it interesting that these same states are willing to give tax breaks to the businesses that reside in these states, knowing full well that the state's revenues are NOT enough to cover the 'operating costs' of the state. Now, they are looking to the taxpayer to provide pressure on the union(s) to give up their benefits. Unfortunately for these GOP/TP Governors, the public is NOT having ANY of that, and it looks to me that the other governors are backing off of the very hard-line approach to collective Bargaining.

COLUMBUS - Republican state senators said Wednesday they will support allowing unionized state employees to collectively bargain for their wages, a reversal of a bill provision that had drawn thousands of protesters to the Statehouse as part of a wave of demonstrations against similar legislation in Wisconsin and other states.

Source: http://www.mariettatimes.com/page/content.detail/id/533947/GOP-senators-back-off-a-bit.html?nav=5002

WASHINGTON -- With a wary eye on Wisconsin, Republican leaders in several states are toning down the tough talk against public employee unions and, in some cases, abandoning anti-union measures altogether.

Indiana's governor urged GOP lawmakers to give up on a "right to work" bill for fear the backlash could derail the rest of his agenda. In Ohio, senators plan to soften a bill that would have banned all collective bargaining by state workers. And in Michigan, the Republican governor says he'd rather negotiate with public employees than pick a fight.

Source: http://www.thonline.com/article.cfm?id=312944

COLUMBUS -- A day after more than 5,000 protesters filled the Statehouse, Ohio Senate Republicans Wednesday backed away from their goal of prohibiting all collective bargaining on behalf of state employees.
"We will be making a change to allow state workers to bargain for wages. … We've listened to the testimony," Senate President Tom Niehaus (R., New Richmond) said.
"At the end of the day, our goal is to protect taxpayers. We believe with this change we would still be able to do that."

Source: http://toledoblade.com/State/2011/02/24/GOP-feels-heat-of-rally-backs-off-labor-bill.html

Republican leaders in several states softened their attacks on public-employee unions Thursday in an effort to avert the fiery demonstrations that have gripped Wisconsin's capital.
In Ohio, Republican lawmakers agreed to modify a bill that would have banned collective bargaining, allowing state workers to negotiate on wages. But those lawmakers also expanded the law's proposed prohibition on strikes to apply to all public workers, including teachers. The original measure applied the ban on strikes only by public-safety personnel.
The bill could come up for a vote in the full Senate as early as Tuesday, putting Ohio at the forefront of states poised to dramatically curtail the power of public employees.
Michigan's GOP governor offered to negotiate with public employees rather than create political gridlock.
Likewise, Indiana Gov. Mitch Daniels called on GOP lawmakers to abandon a bill that would have made it a misdemeanor for an employer to require workers to become or remain members of a labor union. Most of Indiana's Democratic lawmakers have also fled to Illinois and the Republicans who control the House have adjourned until Monday.

Read more: GOP leaders elsewhere back off union attacks - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/nationworld/ci_17477379#ixzz1FJZrl4jc

All except one:

Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker is still holding fast against collective bargaining by public employees, even in the face of massive protests in the state capital.

"I know that collective bargaining has a cost," the Republican governor told NBC's "Meet the Press" via satellite from Madison, Wis.. "If we do not get these changes and the Senate Democrats don't come back, we're going to be forced to do massive layoffs."

Source: http://www.politico.com/blogs/politicolive/0211/Walker_wont_back_down_on_collective_bargaining.html

This whole situation reminds me of the cartoon where a volunteer for hazardous duty is asked for and everyone –except one – steps backward.

Gov. Walker – you are either very brave or very STUPID to stay on your current trajectory. You have been abandoned by your own party to forge ahead on your own while they cover their own butts at your expense.

I guess time will tell, won’t it?

Rorschach,

What a bunch of hooey! Nobody has commandeered the legislative process - they were duly elected. They have every respect for the law.... which requires them to put forth bills for the legislature to vote on. The fact that people do not like the bill does not make it unlawful.

And, what exactly is it that you think will happen if it is debated? The debate will eventually end and the bill will be passed. Just because there is debate does not mean that changes are required. It simply means that the other side can comment on it. The simple fact is, the Republicans won too many seats for the Democrats to stop them.

There was nothing the Republicans could do to stop the Healthcare Reform bill from passing at the Federal level. But, the constituents of each representative and Senator could let them know that if they voted for it, it would cost them in the next election (which it did). That is the only legitimate way for our government to work. The protesters are making their voices heard and it will either sway the legislators or it won't. If not, then the people have the right, even the obligation to work to have them voted out.

Jim Hayes

You would doubtless have stood shoulder to shoulder with the Pinkertons or the union busters at haymarket or Reagan when he put the safety of every airline passenger at risk to break a union

Good one Jim ... reach down into the bucket! Let's first of all separate the 19th from the 20th century crap. That's why we have Federal Civil Service Laws and other labor legistation.

Reagan? YEP! He did the right thing because it WAS an illegal walkout! Period! And the safety straw dog is pretty normal union talk about the event.

It's pretty clear that the Socialists are now in charge of the Unions. If the vote doesn't go your way ... well it wasn't a vote.

Get back to Work Dems! We've had enough of your crap!

The money hasn't disappeared, people. Your governments and corporations have stolen it.

That may be true, but the unions also have their hands in the cookie jar and are just as at fault for the state deficits with their lucrative benefits and wages. You can point your finger and blame others, but there are three fingers pointing back at you when you do this.

Good idea to condemn the private sector employers who create most of the jobs and innovation. Yes, go ahead and tax the "villians" to the point where none of them will even consider moving to WI and those that are there will say forget it and leave.

Libs, wake up! Do you really want the whole mid-west US to look like Detroit?

will to power here in Massachusetts we have a town what made a clerical error and over paid the Teachers for 3 months to the tune of $861 on average ,now the town wants the money paid back and the unions response is lets negotiate this and let them repay the money back over 1,2 or 3 years please is this a joke or couldnt one of these finest educators realize that they were being over paid and say something

The best analogy to the Unions involvement that I've heard is this: A bank CEO, the Governor, and the Union boss are sharing a plate of a dozen cookies. The bank CEO takes 11 cookies. When the Governor goes to eat the final cookie, the Union leader says 'put that back, I want half of it.'

The greedy Teachers Union's have made public unions an 'ugly' example of what they're supposed to represent. Stop acting like a child, you know in your heart that Walker is right, give it a rest.

Will,

Gov. Walker has never talked to Mr. Koch, "his Fatcat buddy". That illegaly recorded phone conversation was set up by a lefty "journalist".

Rallyforge

The money hasn't disappeared, people. Your governments and corporations have stolen it.

That may be true, but the unions also have their hands in the cookie jar and are just as at fault for the state deficits with their lucrative benefits and wages.

Too bad thats not the reason the state is broke. Medicare and meciaid is the reason WI is broke. More reading - less Glen Beck.

True--but he THOUGHT he was talking to his buddy. Words are still the same, the message is still the same. How in the world can you excuse him just because it was a prank call??? He true colors shined through--and you people STILL support him???? Maybe your job will be next on his chopping block....

Dave,

He thought he was talking to one of Koch's buddies. And it was not a illegal recording. It would be illegal if I listened in to your conversation without a warrant, but not on a conversation between you and me...

Have you lot entirely forgotten that Walker gloated on the phone to one of his fatcat buddies about how he was getting away with this nonsense?

I read that conversation and didnt hear him say anything except thanks for the support over and over again. Nothing wrong there.

I read that conversation and didnt hear him say anything except thanks for the support over and over again. Nothing wrong there.

Liberals hear and say what they want whether it's fact or fiction!!! There' no research involved, they basically repeat everything they hear like parrots!!!

Will to Power

And where exactly did the mis-spent money go Will? Maybe into the state Welfare programs, or the pensions of the same unions that are balking at the legislation? Maybe it was poured into infrastructure improvements throughout the state, many of which are unnecessary. How about education, the money pit that is not showing any gains despite vast increases to it's spending over the last ten years? I know you'll tell me it went into tax breaks for big business, guess again, Wisconsin has one of the highest corporate and personal tax rates in the nation. The recent cuts haven't taken effect yet and there has been a fairly steady stream of business leaving Wisconsin.

Mike:

Too bad thats not the reason the state is broke. Medicare and meciaid is the reason WI is broke. More reading - less Glen Beck.

Again, I reiterate for you slow libs, you can blame it on anything or anyone else, but the unions are a big factor in the state deficits!!! Twist it anyway you want, but it won't change a damn thing!!!

BTW - I don't listen to Glen Beck. Now you can go back for more news from your biased MSNBC Idiot News Media Outlet!!!

Do you liberals understand Walker and the Republicans are just taking a page out of Jimmy Carter and the Democrat's playbook? A Democrat president and Democrat controlled Senate and House did exactly this in the 70s to Federal Unions. FDR also admitted unions dont belong in the public sector. The Federal workers all survived and are doing just fine.

Just shake the Ivory Tower a bit and it'll start falling out, hopefully along with the robber barons who took it and are sitting in their 15th-floor offices chuckling about how you let them get away with it.

Gives new meaning to trickle-down, doesn't it.

BTW - I don't listen to Glen Beck. Now you can go back for more news from your biased MSNBC Idiot News Media Outlet!!!

The left love to talk about Beck, Palin and Fox News. THEY are the ones infatuated with them. We ARE on MSNBC arent we??

Dave, Who cares if it was a setup? The truth is the important thing here. The governor would never have given that statement if the one talking with him said "You know, this is gonna be on national television and the wole nation will know exactly what you are really doing, so is this legit or are you killing the unions to make the Republican party the only choice in America and your agenda an edict rather than option?"

Seriously, tricked into revealing his true nature? You bet. Way to go whoever you are!

Rallyforge

Mike:

Too bad thats not the reason the state is broke. Medicare and meciaid is the reason WI is broke. More reading - less Glen Beck.

Again, I reiterate for you slow libs, you can blame it on anything or anyone else, but the unions are a big factor in the state deficits!!!

Does anyone else see the insanity in that last statement? Thats akin to blathering on that something is true - even if you cant prove it. LOL!

And Im slow? Ill go sheep skin for sheep skin with you any day of the week.

America's biggest export by far, WAR, is draining the economy to the tune of $100+ billion PER MONTH, largely fraudulent, vast overspending and outright theft by the military industrial complex (example: the paper plates used in the chow halls cost: $85 EACH, just one of countless examples). And the government is quibbling over a mere 60 billion in "entitlement" spending. If they stopped the wars-for-profiteers for just two weeks all other programs could be funded. And Americans are screaming at each other over crumbs while the biggest thefts in history are taking place. If it weren't such a horrific, monstrous crime, the worst in history, it'd be the punchline to a sick joke.

Medicare is a federal program, Medicaid is a jt. program, fed and state. HCR is basically nothing but putting many more into medicaid. There hasn't been enough fraud there! Within a few years the Massachusett's plan has basically imploded. Far higher costs than forecast and premiums rising faster than in any other state. Wait what has to get cut from gov't programs if HCR isn't changed dramatically or scrapped. Let's expedite the court case immediately to the Supreme Court

Dave Milw, WI 2700770

Gov. Walker has never talked to Mr. Koch, "his Fatcat buddy". That illegaly recorded phone conversation was set up by a lefty "journalist".

Walker all but invited "Koch" to teabag him on the phone. (That conversation would have taken place later.)

If you can't see who's really calling the shots there, you've deliberately chosen ignorance over reality. This is a politician in the bag for high-dollar special interest. It doesn't get much clearer.

Mike:

• • Does anyone else see the insanity in that last statement? Thats akin to blathering on that something is true - even if you cant prove it. LOL!

Here we go again, Mike. You continuously claim it's medicaid and welfare causing the deficit. SO, where is your proof on this claim? Typical double standard by libs. "Libs are right and everyone else is wrong!" So Mike, show me your proof of your claim!!! I will send you the state accounting data reflecting expenditures by state for public wages and pensions, medicaid, welfare, and so on...

AZ: "I read that conversation and didnt hear him say anything..." You hear voices when you read, ohhhhhhhhh OK?! Whatever you are sipping on dude I want 2 of them for Saturday Night when I can hide the keys, lock the door and read The Plague with 1 eye and I Claudius with the other!

Also I was glad to see someone else keeping in mind the no-bid, no competition, selling off of the state's power plants. to, lets all guess who. Yep, Walker is dancing on his leash to the tune the Koch Bros are playing on the Grinder. Toss a pretty penny to the cute little monkey!

You continuously claim it's medicaid and welfare causing the deficit.

You're right. He forgot defense spending.

Hey Mikey:

"Ill go sheep skin for sheep skin with you any day of the week."

Keep your sexual fantasies to yourself. LOLOL!

Liberals! LMFAO!!

Again, getting back to the issue of making a point, you once more have failed. Your juvenile sexualization of another's comment is the truest indication of your mentality. I suppose your neighbors are praying for the day when you move away, so they won't have to be subjected to your meaningless rants and mad cackling.

When you are in the Minority, you represent the minority of people in the state. When you are in the Majority, you represent the majority of the people in the state. The Dems were the Majority for several years, leaving the Republicans in the Minority. Now that the people of Wisconsin have kicked the Dems into the minority, the Repubs have the Majority, but the Dems still want to say how things will go. They are like spoiled children. When I'm leading, no one can say anything and will do it my way. When their not leading, they protest and/or leave stomping their feet.

So what is your suggestion to bring down health care cost and we need specifics because these cost are bankrupting families and this country. In South Carolina health care rates are out the roof for employees out of their salaries and the average state employee makes roughly $50,000 year. Here are the cost and let me be very clear these are the rates state employees are paying to have health care:

Monthly Premiums of State Health Plans (SHP)

SHP Savings Plan:

Employee Only $9.28

Employee/Spouse $72.56

Employee/Children $20.28

Full Family $108.56

SHP Standard Plan (Blue Cross Blue Shield)

Employee Only $93.46

Employee/Spouse $237.50

Employee/Children $142.46

Full Family $294.58

Blue Choice Health Plan HMO

Employee Only $185.52

Employee/Spouse $531.46

Employee/Children $340.68

Full Family $711.08

CIGNA HMO

Employee Only $323.28

Employee/Spouse $780.70

Employee/Children $599.14

Full Family $1106.80

Bear in mind state employees still have to meet their out of pocket expense for all medical cost on top of these premiums. So please provide specifics as to what needs to be done to bring down health care cost. Just asking.

Skully:

Relax toots. You libbies are quite sensitive these days. LOL! Get over it. You got smoked in 2010. You are getting hammered in WI, NJ, OH, IN, and FL. And come 2012, you guys will be history. Yay!

Liberals! LMFAO!!!

Forgot to add state employees also have to pay a tobacco surcharge on top these premiums:

Employee Only $40

Employee/Spouse or Full Family $60

Employees had to sign statements certifying the use or non use of tobacco and if you did not sign this certification you are automatically assess the tobacco surcharge.

Meh, just take out a few thousand people in the night. Oh but that would be bad, but so is over-crowding. >.>

Medicaid and welfare, big Pharma, Foreign wars, people living longer. Well duh that's going to cost more.

Doesn't really matter that the US will also lag behind in Science Research after what's going down in Washington due to "responsible" spending. It's hard enough trying to get grants through the grant process why make it worse by saying " Well we're broke, Sorry, you'll have to go somewhere else." That somewhere else probably being some other country and what not or just not even doing the research unless it is privately funded.

The government currently funds around a third in research and developments in science. They even plan on cutting research in Energy, HEALTH ( Out of all things! that's kinda shootin yourself in the foot, viruses, and bacteria mutate ya know ! )

Oh and there actually is investment payback in science in federal research spending. *shrugs* Talk about being "responsible" when it comes to cutting.

Yes science take sometimes years to yield results but hey the new iphone came out recently. Talk about where a persons priorities are when it comes to science and technology. Not to mention it takes water to make most electronic things.

It amazes me that someone can post with the absolute self assurace that they have made a fait acomplis going so far as to make it seem the comment was so stupid as to be a joke, when they do not even realize they themselves are demonstrating a sever lack of knowledge. Take this sad attempt at a smear:

"~ "Ill go sheep skin for sheep skin with you any day of the week."

Keep your sexual fantasies to yourself. LOLOL!

Liberals! LMFAO!! "

For the poor individual that obviously did not know, a sheep skin, or more common sheepskin, is referring to a college or university diploma. It was referring to degrees obtained. It is disturbing how easily you seem to have seen a sexual content attached to that statement.

all i can say is that when you rights are stripped, you have the right to fight for your ideals. if you stay put, nothing will happen, and more will be taken away. i can't believe how it has come this far where public workers are now the enemies. that's funny how they the public sector workers are seen as the enemy and those oil fat cats for some reason aren't criticized, just barely in the news. that's what i don't get. the right complains about givng just one penny in taxes to invest in this country, yet those same people don't give a damn when their gas prices are skyrocketing about 10 to 15 cents a week.

RedneckCEO

Hey Mikey:

"Ill go sheep skin for sheep skin with you any day of the week."

Keep your sexual fantasies to yourself. LOLOL!

Liberals! LMFAO!!

Yeah that's really laugh out loud worthy. I'm glad you keep your diplomas on condoms, the rest of us keep them on "sheep skin".

I read that conversation and didnt hear him say anything except thanks for the support over and over again. Nothing wrong there.

He was leading the witness. :0)

Evidence that the unions have ruined education is everywhere, but liberals refuse to see it. The only way to fix education, and our economy, is to get the union and the Fed Gov out of it.

http://www.waitingforsuperman.com/synopsis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1r-r6iLBEI&NR=1

OMG, is that a real youtube video??

Could someone provide a link to a recording of this phone conversation that everyone is referencing? I haven't heard of or seen it yet and therefore cannot comment.

I've been called out before for making comments without getting my fact straight, so I'm trying to make a habit of getting the information first before criticizing.

So the Oil Companies are driving up the cost of oil?

Okay then. Look at the value of the dollar and then look at world news.

I am all behind our public workforce. I totally support top pay for top performers and think incentives for results would go a long way. But we have to live within our means. Most Unions do not support your freedom. They take it and use it to the advantage of the whole without regard to what its doing to anyone on the outside. Most Unions will waste no time spitting on your freedom.

GC-370321 in our State, the average State worker makes $65,000 a year, that's right from the Census statistics, a $500,000,000 a month payroll, while the average worker takehome for the State is only $22,500, that's including State workers, so really, averaging only ~$20,000.

That means State workers on average make 250% MORE THAN PRIVATE WORKERS, and that's NOT COUNTING FULL BENEFITS AND LIFE PENSION.

It works out that Mil.Gov makes 300% MORE THAN PRIVATE CITIZENS, and that was a statistic published about a year ago by BLS, then 'disappeared'. Can't have the Prols knowing that the Pols make 300% of what they do!

Final proof? The highest per capita income in the US isn't in Orange County or Las Vegas or the Hamptons in NYC, ...it's WADC and NOVA, in the Ring of Daeth centered on the Pentagon.

The sense of entitlement America has shall be her downfall. Just like in Greece. Entitlement. You people aren't entitled to ANYTHING except your freedoms. Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, speech, assembly, bear arms, etc. You are not ENTITLED to a job. You are not ENTITLED to welfare, to benefits, to bonuses, to pensions, to healthcare. It is not the government's job to feed, bathe, and shelter you. It isn't their job to cover your sorry @$$es when you screw up. Every single person who is complaining about Walker should face the reality: You're a spoiled rotten brat. It isn't a RIGHT. Take your selfish attitudes and shove it. What I wouldn't give for another Ronald Reagan. By God...

www.motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/scott-walker-koch-brother-crank-call-wisconsin

That is the link to the 2 part recording of the phone call.

So if your rights were being stripped away from your job, you'd just keep on going like nothing was wrong, right? Closed minds, should have closed mouths.

WhereHasAmericaGone

You don't have enough intellect to realize you contradict yourself in one sentence...

They didn't skip out is the same thing as left their jobs...

And you call me a moron...

Speaking of insulting someones intelligence - do you really not think that these people may have personal or vacation time to use? I know you think everyone in the public sector should work for minimum wage with no benefits - but they do have personal time.

What rights have been stripped?

And Mike, if they have a half of a month personal time or vacation, along with every holiday, two weeks in December, spring break and summer if they want...

Then they really are just spoiled and it's not about the kids..

Those DemocRATS were elected to represent the people. Leaving the state and "hiding" out is not representing the people, just because you don't happen to agree with the majority. Axe them all, and then hold them in contempt and fine the Hell out of them for failing to perform their elected duties. You can't spend money you don't have. Really kinda simple to me.

WhereHasAmericaGone:

Ever think that the reason you would get fired is that you don't have a union?

See you've got no power. Sh!t, they could fire you 'cause they don't like you or you've got a beard. Without the union you're a mouse. Scurry along to work now so you don't get fired.

You know, they could have just did what the republicans did in congress, filibuster until the cows came home.

Hey, didn't the republicans do this in the senate a couple of years back?

Mark...You use not getting fired for not doing your job, for not working up to par, for being lazy and unproductive as yor logic for unions worth...wow, that is really weak

Then again, you probably aren't worth hiring, so it makes since you feel that way...

I keep my job because of my performances and merits and continue to get raises to pay taxes for your entitlements...

I agree with wherehastimegone. The people voted them in and they have a job to do. I had voted on the democrat ticket last election...but NEVER again! The dem's are losing respect!!!!!

Actually, if the Fab 14 hadn't left, we'd be discovering all the gross icky things in the legislation after it was pushed through! This way, we have the chance to dissect & disseminate like we should have in the first place.

The name calling on both sides must stop. We must all grow up.

From what I can see, a small group of protesters was isolated and stressed to try and break the entire movement. Someone attempted to co-opt the peaceful protests with violence by planting live bullets..

Someone is freaking out. So, we wait.

Mr JHall

Let me ask you a question. If the Republicans did the VERY same thing....running from voting on ANYTHING.........just what would your response be? I'm just wondering as a middle of the road voter. Please persuade me to vote YOUR way with an intelligent answer.

AVI

Just like all the gross and icky little paybacks in the Democratic bill that raised taxes in the last session before Democrats lost control? You know the bill they wrote, voted on and passed in less than 48 hours? I've seen much less in the way of hidden mess in the media from this bill.

Mike If that is true they took "vacation", I would say right about now there 2 weeks is up.

Hex and if this is the same as what you are thinking about, the dems turned off the lights and went on vacation. Ahhh yep I would say it was just about the same thing. The dems only know how to runaway instead of talking it out. Which is what they should be doing. But yeah the dems could have a filibuster going and stop the vote. At least that way it will look like they are actually working for their constituents instead of acting like spoiled brats.

The people voted them in and they have a job to do. I had voted on the democrat ticket last election...but NEVER again! The dem's are losing respect!!!!!

Yes, they are. But if you intend to vote instead for Republicans, do your country a favor and just stop voting.

"As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy."
— Abraham Lincoln

This isn't confined to just one State, it will domino though out the country. If other States workers and non-union workers don't stand together everyone loses. We need a Nation wide, call in sick for 3 days. Why do we continue to let those that have so much keep taking what little we have ? Why are we being slaves to a master government ?

loriann-2949463

I had voted on the democrat ticket last election...but NEVER again! The dem's are losing respect!!!!!

I doubt seriously that you voted (D) in that election or any previous election.

As for respect? I think the Dems are finally standing up and finding their backbones. They'll win on this one. Check the polls. Remember DeMint's "Obama's Waterloo"? Don't think for a minute that GOP arrogance may not be bringing them to the final tipping point.

Americans don't want bargaining rights dissolved, and they don't want dictators in their Governor's offices or anywhere else. Walker is bought and paid for and the only thing he's intent on delivering is the promises he's made to his benefactors. The best interests of Wisconsin are nowhere to be found in his intentions.

For those dim memoried posters reviling the 14 absent reps, try not to be too hypocritical, even if accidentally. As Republicans in the national Senate, we did the same thing for a very long time, not a few weeks.

These Wisconsin Democrats don't want something coming to the floor unless they can fully participate and not be dictated too. 41 Republicans did that same thing over the last four years in the United States Senate. The only difference is they had to vote to allow a bill to even come to the floor, but they said we would not vote to bring measures to the floor of the United States Senate. There is no meaningful difference in the tactics used as the result was the objective and THAT was identical.

So, for the people spewing rhetoric, take a breath, compose yourself, realize this is politics as usual. We did and do the same thing as Republicans and no one stripped us of pay for "not working" or standing in the way of the party in power wanting to pass bills it was in favor of at the time. To call these reps out or demean them for a tactic we seem to have perfected says a great deal about your character and intellectual honesty.

The unions agreed to all the monetary cuts, the union killing addendum is simple political thuggery and the governor even admitted it was not important for the budget, tricked into admitting but, we now know what his true agenda was (not that we didn't know already).

Someone asked for an intellectual reason why this can be explained as a reasonable stratagy by the Dems, I have shown it isn't even a Dem idea. The focus should be on how we as Americans will sit back and allow a party in power to make overt, even callous attempts to kill any effective opposition and do so with impunity and force without being challenged and condemned.

WhereHasAmericaGone:

Ever think that the reason you would get fired is that you don't have a union?

See you've got no power. Sh!t, they could fire you 'cause they don't like you or you've got a beard. Without the union you're a mouse. Scurry along to work now so you don't get fired.

There are federal and state labor equal opportunity/hr laws to protect people from that. Again, do some research before making these claims! They cant fire you from a job just for no reason even in at will employment states.

Anyone want to defend Teachers that left their classroom, without notice, claiming sickness and attending this protest? Do you see the similarity in what the Democrat Legislators did? BTW, Vacation Time for State Legislators, must be requested and approved. Leaving without permission or approval is desertion or dereliction of duty and by law is punishable by up to 30 days in jail.

ZipZag. From the various comments on this vine, it is apparent we need more teachers not less. From what I am reading on this vine, it is sad that so many people are this ignorant.

I really respect how unions stridently march around with their little fists balled up, interfering not only with work they're being paid to perform, but everyone elses', and claiming that 'the unions built the middle class', when in fact, union membership peaked back in the 50s when union members I knew used to joke about loading autos onto trains by 'jumping from train car to train car', and joked about 'how many workers it takes to hold up a shovel' when the only thing that the unions created was the deindustrialization of America, and total takeover of the public sector welfare tax drone system that is bleeding America white. How many overlapping regulatory agencies does it take to tell Americans to bend over and kiss their future goodbye, featherbedding a few fatcat union bosses, who rather than doing their negotiating jobs and thanking God for the great munificence of HAVING a job, they'll 'talk trash' to workers as they're stealing workers benefits as 'dues', and leaving pensions underfunded.

Hee-haw, hee-haw, your day is over, and now we're coming for you, drones!

Unions are the real reason that jobs have been exported to India, Mexico and <insert Country name here>. Currently, Unions have rasied the entitlements to the point of diminishing return. Now a company must create more than one item to turn a profit, two must be created to support the Unions, then one must be created to pay expenses, then one must be created to generate profit for the investors.

Since the Government Unions do not produce anything, I say get rid of them entirely. America has thrived without Unions and with the laws for fair labor, they are a dinosaur that has out lived the usefulness.

@Leslie (post #5.12): No Dem will answer your question because it's obvious what the answer would be - the Reps, in the reverse scenario, would be painted as unAmerican, job-skipping cry babies who deserved to be fired immediately! And if the latter didn't happen, they'd protest that.

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?

To InpatientGirl:

There are federal and state labor equal opportunity/hr laws to protect people from that. Again, do some research before making these claims! They cant fire you from a job just for no reason even in at will employment states.

If however, it is a Union Shop, you can be fired for refusing to join the Union. In an "at will state" there is really no reason to fire anyone, all the company needs to do is lay someone off due to lack of work.

markinCR, post 5.19 --

That was rational, reasonable, and it's a damned shame there's no one left in the GOP who thinks that way. Next time I hear a Republican express those kind of sentiments, I'll consider voting for them.

The focus should be on how we as Americans will sit back and allow a party in power to make overt, even callous attempts to kill any effective opposition and do so with impunity and force without being challenged and condemned.

It's that basic element of respect for the point of view of ALL Americans that's sorely missing. Losing an election by a percentage point shouldn't strip a minority party of representation.

Thank you.

MarkinCR - I have to agree with Rorschach. Your posts contain great insight into this whole problem. It looks like you are a dying breed, because your thoughts were lucid and rational, unlike what we have been 'blessed' with lately.

Please continue posting your thoughts.

Rorschach

It's that basic element of respect for the point of view of ALL Americans that's sorely missing. Losing an election by a percentage point shouldn't strip a minority party of representation.

Well first you'd have to show up for work to be stripped of representation. Right now it's abandonment of representation

And lastly, when did you get religeon? Where were you the last two years when MY representation was getting stripped by Barrack, Nancy, and Harry?

Get back to work!

you truly are LOST!

This happened to the Tsar in Russia back in 1917. Same historical behavior, union = communism.

This GOPTP puppet of the Koch brothers is as corrupt as the day is long. I wouldn't trust him any farther than I could throw him.

His plan is tax cuts for the wealthy, no-bid contracts to sell state owned assets to Koch Industries, cut wages for everyone else, and bankrupt the unions.

Watch the energy rates go up as soon as Koch owns all the power plants, watch the profits dollars roll into the GOPTP coffers for the next election. It's corruption at its finest!!!

Tea Partiers, it won't be too long before your job is next on the chopping block and you will have nobody to blame but yourselves.

His plan is tax cuts for the wealthy, no-bid contracts to sell state owned assets to Koch Industries, cut wages for everyone else, and bankrupt the unions.

If thats his plan you should be for it, sounds just like reagan's trickle down that got the economy boomin!

GRJ-2553655:

Yeah, the peasants loved that dorned ol' Tsar. WTF?

Unions are not communist, you moron. Comminists don't beleive in private property. I've never heard a union rep suggest that we give all our possesions to the state and start a national commune. Don't be rediculous and before you say it the US is already a socialist nation. Hate to break it to you but it's true. Enjoy.

Jeffor...Well not yet anyway....

Well Jeffor, let us count the ways you are wrong:

1: "Unions are not communist" Ummm collective bargaining. Everyone is equal regardless of merit... twisted properly, a union's activities can be made to fit a communist label.

2: "Comminists don't beleive in private property" If by property you mean land, then I admit that I have never heard any union leader speak on it, though if honestly asked I am sure they would love to have it all (as would everyone else) and be in charge of partialing it back out as they see fit. if you mean the clothes on your back neither the communist manifesto nor the teamsters have ever really discussed it.

3: "the US is already a socialist nation" Nope, sorry, wrong again. The US is a Republic, and it is not a socialist one. The central government does not control manufacturing, though the fed purchase and medaling in the auto industry strays VERY close which is why many people got upset about it.

Everyone needs to back off the arrogant posturing and have a reasonable discussion.

MY OPINIONS

Phone call: Complete nonsense, yeah I would have preferred that he cut the bozo off at the knees when he (the caller) made some of his more outrageous statements, but unfortunately there is not a politician in the world who would.

Selling of Power Plants: That is somewhat troubling. I am all for privatizing many of the government functions IF a business entity is capable of managing them more efficiently; however, the sale should not be in a no-bid situation.

Senators running away: This is completely wrong, and inexcusable. They don't have vacation time, this is not comparable to an established parliamentary tactic that is specifically allowed withing the rules and laws. This is a group of individuals who have violated their personal oath AND the constitution of their state. No matter the odds, If duty calls, you stand and fight; you do not run away and hide.

MSNBC national polls: one, I don't like polls they are way too easy to slant however you want them to turn out. Two, it does not matter what anyone outside the borders of Wisconsin (including me) thinks. It is a state issue.

Collective Bargaining Right: You do not have one, there is no such right. It is a myth. The privilege has been extorted (yes look up the word it fits) from businesses and governments, but it is not a right. There was a time in our history when this served a beneficial purpose. A debate can be had on if it still does or not; but it is not a right.

Name calling in a discussion forum: About as childish as can be. If you can not have a discussion, do not wish to participate in a discussion, do not waste teh world's time by posting. That nonsense was supposed to be left behind on the elementary school playground.

Everyone is equal in that particular union or group. Communism deals with states and nations. Not a grocery baggers union or any other subset of workers. I'm not particularly pro union myself but I do know that unions do not neccessarily equal communism.

And while the government does not control certain aspects of business and industry it does have many laws and agencies that protect workers and keep the playing field level and fair. That's socialism and you can be a republic and have socialist tendancies. One does not exclude the other.

I'm not so wrong as you think. Yes I was generalizing but if you are trying to say also that: Unions=communist, then you are the one that is wrong, my friend.

Adam,

A very nice post, lucid as well as illuminating. I do have one correction that I feel needs to be addressed.

A right by deffinition includes:

18. a just claim or title, whether legal, prescriptive, or moral.
19. Sometimes, rights. that which is due to anyone by just claim, legal guarantees, moral principles, etc.
20. adherence or obedience to moral and legal principles and authority.
21. that which is morally, legally, or ethically proper.

So you see, they were negotiated and legally granted. They are therefore rights and it is the proper term.

Again, a very good post.

Jeffor..(#6.6)....Actually they are communist in principle. Equal everything for everyone, regardless of ability.....and if they were allowed to go unchecked it would only be a matter of time before they took your "private property"...because you may have more than the next guy....Thankfully only 12% of the workforce is Union.

Oh, and as far as that calling someone else a "moron" thing.....you shouldn't do that, ever on Newsvine....especially if you're going to write this next....
"Comminists don't beleive in private property"

Enjoy !!

limbaughger

His plan is tax cuts for the wealthy, no-bid contracts to sell state owned assets to Koch Industries, cut wages for everyone else, and bankrupt the unions.

If thats his plan you should be for it, sounds just like reagan's trickle down that got the economy boomin!

Except, Reagan also raised taxes to get the economy boomin.

GRJ-2553655

"This happened to the Tsar in Russia back in 1917. Same historical behavior, union = communism"

Wow! In this comparison we would be led to beleive that Tsarism=non-union, which is the better arguement.

Communism and Socialism shouldn't be used in this debate on unions. First, they weren't defined and a 30 second search on the internet and you will see a half dozen definitions with many variations on each type. The terms are used with no attempt to reconcile the word with the government to which it is attached and while the word is the same, the cultures they are defining are not remotely similar.

The fact is unions are far wide of communist in nature. In fact, other than trying to protect the workers, it doesn't resemble communism or socialism at all. More skilled should get more, more experianced and veteran members get preferencial treatment,,, the facts of what a union does demonstrates their need and usefulness and how they stray far afield of the strick "manefesto" ideal of a socialist group.

They are a bargaining unit. Period. The Republicans and Democrats are bargaining units. They each attempt to gain power by numbers and influnce results to their advantage. Both parties do the same as any union does, they just have more power.

Jeffor

Looking back, I wasn't clear on my post. No a union does not equate to comunism. I was briefly trying to attempt to explain why some people were equating the two. I had hoped the last sentence on that point made it clear but it did not.

Markin

We are running into a confusion based on the meaning of "right" We, in the US, believe in the concept of "Inalianable Rights" or "Rights" (as contrasted with rights, no capitalization). A group of individuals have a Right to unionize. A union can (as a representative of the individuals) atempt to bargin collectivelty. However, the business does not have to listen. It is not reciprical. I have the Right to freedom of spech, and the goverment must honor that Right. I do not have a Right to drive a car. The process by which I can operate a vehicle legally are codified, but it is a granting of a privlidge, not a right. Collective Barganing is a privlidge, not a Right.

The state is broke. Don't you get it that there has to be cuts??? The same is happening at the national level. But with the national problem, we are going to pay for it by having to learn Chinese in about 20 years.

Adam...(post #6.8)

Collective Bargaining International protection:

The right to collectively bargain is recognized through international human rights conventions. Article 23 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UN) identifies the ability to organize trade unions as a fundamental human right. Item 2(a) of the International Labour Organization's (UN) Declaration on Fundamental Principles and Rights at Work defines the "freedom of association and the effective recognition of the right to collective bargaining" as an essential right of workers.

LOOK IT UP...INTERESTING READ.

So cut the salaries of the Governor, and the legislature and all those high up in administration first. Then cut the average worker. Do not just go after the low men on the totem pole.

Evidence that the unions have ruined education is everywhere, but liberals refuse to see it. The only way to fix education, and our economy, is to get the union and the Fed Gov out of it.

http://www.waitingforsuperman.com/synopsis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1r-r6iLBEI&NR=1

Huskergal: Why should ANYONE be forced to work for nothing? Why should the "low men on the totem" who do not work for the state be forced to pay 90% of the healthinsurance premium of those state workers? With most employers getting 50% would be good. I work for a health insurance company and only get about 60% to 70%.

Eng64: UN "laws" do not mean much to me, I am a citizen of the US, not the UN. A discussion of what the UN should or should not be and its proper role would belong in a different forum. That being said, nothing you quoted runs against what I posted.

Workers can unionize, but business owners do not have to deal with the union; therefore it is not truly a Right but a privilege.

Incidentally that is why the NRA and many gun owners get so upset about many of the gun laws. The Constitution granted a Right, but various laws since then have attempted to turn it into a privilege.

Ok first of all I shouldn't have called anyone moron. I meant no offense. I just speak that way sometimes. I'm sorry.

Second, I used a generalized argument to counter a very scewed comparison between unions and communists. One does not equal the other. As I said I'm not a big union guy. The only union I've ever been in was a grocery store union and I didn't personally get anything from the union but dues to pay. That being said I understand why unions started and, yes, many of the factors that led to unions and political movements like socialism, communism, marxism etc. do not exist anymore. That's because of worker rights groups and momvements. If unions and labor laws were removed then we would be back to square one with 16 hour workdays and 8 year olds working in mines. That's all I am worried about.

Lastly, there is no reaon to fear most political "-isms" these days. We've won the cold war and the world is full of successful socialist nations that still operate as republics (government elected by the people as opposed to nobles, clergy etc). Especially in a shrinkig world the smart societies and governments will be wise to take the bits and pieces of what workd best around the world and apply it. In history, it's the countries that resist growth and change that have the big social upheavals.

Russia for example. There is a reason why communism and marxism took hold there. Russia is traditionally brutal towards its lower classes-serfs and then workers-resisting reform and opting instead for conservatism. The oppression of the working classes there led to the radical (for the time) ideas like marxism to take hold and become widespread. Other areas in Europe (like England) were less resistant to econmic and social change and were spared many of the problems that Russia had as they went into the industial age.

Remember that we are still sorting out events that began two hundred years ago. Idustrialization, changed the social order at its most fundamental roots and the world is still trying to figure it all out.

Again, sorry for the name calling and no I am not a commie :D I just wanted to point out that communism and especially socialism can mean different things. THere are so many forms of socialism that one could successfully argue either way that the US has socialist leanings. No we don't entrust industries completely to the state but the state does regulate and oversee industry and commerce. It's not as clear cut as unions=commies. THat's all I was saying. No harm intended.

Mike in Delray,

It's true that commuism is based on common ownership and communists seek the end of private property. Look into Proudhoun and "property is theft." I think he was wrong but you can see where the seed was planted. Keep in mind that communism was quickly perverted into a system of control rather than a utopian communal society but the original idea was to combat capitalist who controlled wealth without actually having to physically work to obtain it.

Again, I'm just sayin'. Not advocating. :)

avomonster

Watch the energy rates go up as soon as Koch owns all the power plants, watch the profits dollars roll into the GOPTP coffers for the next election. It's corruption at its finest!!!

You can take that to the bank. Recall Enron's wanking of the electric market in California? The Kochs are knee-deep in energy futures. The same deregulatory act that created the "Enron Loophole" allows the Kochs to do likewise.

They're profiting from all of us -- right now -- at the gas pump. There is no shortage of either oil or refined gasoline. As of 2/1/11 there was a very large surplus of refined gasoline - that is public record. The price runup is 100% market speculation. The Kochs are part of that. Look it up. Google "Koch Industries oil speculation".

Wisconsin, watch your back on this. When the electric market here in Texas was "deregulated" a few years ago, our electric rates skyrocketed too. When the Kochs own your power plants, you will be taking it in the shorts - and you can count on it. Don't say you weren't warned.

And once they own the power plants, you won't be getting them back. Ever.

The truly rich and creative left this tax-happy state a long time ago. Check out the salaries of the union execs printed in the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel yesterday. Talk about fat-cats.

Actually, I think he's trying to balance a budget to keep the state from going bankrupt. What good will your unions, your protesting and mindless "republicans are for the rich and democrats are for the working man" rhetoric do for you then? Cities, States, the Federal Government and the vast majority of Americans have lived in fantasy land for a long time. Borrow, borrow, borrow.....debt, debt, debt. We have been warned for a long time now that this would happen. The chickes have come home to roost!

fdjcorp #7,

Aren't the unionized state workers supposed to be working for population of the state or don't they care for them and the probable tax increases that will be required to cover increased costs demanded by the union?

Actualy it's Republicas who Borrow and Spend. The Democrats Tax and Spend. If you look at the facts Republicans have never reduced spending or the size of government. Who's more fiscally responsible?

He is not balancing the budget, he isn't even trying! This is a LIE and a SHAM.

This is class warfare, that idiot gov. must go.

He is not balancing the budget, he isn't even trying! This is a LIE and a SHAM.

This is class warfare, that idiot gov. must go.

Said the economic scholar, JHall!!!

Gov Walker still hasn't sacrificed his salary and benefits.

@fdjcorp: It is so funny how most stories end up blaming people who are rich, maybe if all you crybabies would get off your butts and off the computer and get some incentive , maybe you also could be rich. Go Walker lay them off, time to put the unions in thier place.

GreatJefferson,

He already admitted the union busting was not to help the deficit fixing, it was party killing. He could already have a new budget if he were not certain he could also kill the dem party in Wisconson and lead the way to kill any effective opposition in the rest of the country too. The worst part is, his own state is in vast majority AGAINST what is being done. I think he made a mistake and since so many of his Repub Senators won by a slim margin, it appears the same citizens that he says voted him in to make these decisions, will vote them out because it was never on the Republican platform. Over 70% now say they are willing to recall those Republican Senators elegible to be recalled and replaced.

So who exactly, is doing the will of the people? Not one of the absent Senators is being considered for a voter recall. Interesting, isn't it.

The DHS Homeland Gestapo are negotiating to join the Public Employees Retirement System Union, which is just about the funniest damn thing I ever saw in my long life, ...how an agency that didn't even exist ten years ago, has absolutely no need to exist, is now a protected government monopoly with union benefits, squandering more of our last life savings ($63 BILLION EVERY YEAR) than the Feds spend on all Education funding to all the States. Oh, this is priceless!

We will not be saved. We will not be saved. We will not be saved, some day! Oh deep in my heart, I do believe, DHS Homeland Gestapo will destroy USA.

And as our pauper grandchildren piiss on our graves, they can thank public unions for the 100% of GDP public bankruptcy that is collapsing their future: TRILLION DOLLARS A YEAR FOR FOREIGN ADVENTURISM WAR PROFITEERING, and the unions are perfectly fine with that, oh, it's 'sacrosanct'.

I think the Koch brothers are running Wisconsin and are pulling the strings there. My opinion.

Elected officials do not work for the people. The are not suppsoed to "work for the people" They are supposed to LEAD the people. The concept of "working for the people" is a result of the WIIFM (whats in it for me) mentality that is the cause of most of the problems we currently have. Politicians promising to give things to people so that they can be elected regardless of wether granting those things is detrimental to our society.

Ben Frankling, when asked what type of government the Constitution was bringing into existence replied, “A republic, if you can keep it.” We are in danger of loosing it because of WIIFM.

"rookie" mistake......I would call it "refreshing". Somebody has the balls to balance a budget. Take the heat. Be the turned into a villan.

You know what. ALL you people who are against this........I hope he fails. I hope your state goes bankrupt and then you will have NO jobs, NO protection whatsoever.

Great Jefferson

"rookie" mistake......I would call it "refreshing". Somebody has the balls to balance a budget. Take the heat. Be the turned into a villan.

Might be relevant if the state were bankrupt due to the public workers pay or benefits - but its not. Its bankrupt due to medicare and medicaid. Want to balance the budget - implement medicare/aid reform.

And thanks for the support of the opposition of Walker - the state wont go bankrupt because state workers pay. Same old doom and gloom from you people.

Mike

It's not really the payroll that is the problem it is the under funded pension plan and the rising health care costs! Yes that also has an impact on Medicare and Medicaid, and the Federal Obama care plan will only compound that issue. We need a reduction in spending in more than one area. Yes he has done this for political reasons as well as monetary reasons, but whether it is a stand alone bill or part of a budget reduction package makes little difference, it is an area that must be addressed.

People seem to keep forgetting that the targeted union agreed to modifying their benefits package...

Mark, it isn't about the deficit. The governor already saidthat much. The concessions for budget repair were agreed to and this could be a done deal if not for grandstanding on a party power struggle. We need to call it what it is, the gov is now aiming a kill shot at the other party. It has zero to do with the deficit at this point.

Yes Mark, they did, but that doesn't mean they won't demand the same benefits during the next round of negotiations. Do the people of WI want to have to keep doing this over and over and over again?

Yes mn, they do. I have worked both sides of the aisle and seen abuses on both sides as well. The key point is this, without being able to stand together, the abuses will only be by the side with any power remaining. Don't fool yourself into thinking that with no ability to resist the people writing the contracts, private and government, will do as they want carte blanch or, with the full power and authority to do so unimpeded.

Absolute power corrupts absolute. That statement has never been proven wrong. The threat of unions, in places without them, encourages businesses to give compensation packages and attend grievances as if the unions were there and representing. The power of the people to represent themselves as a body, not insignificant individual, is an important part of American business and politics.

As to what may happen in the future, let it. You can't negotiate for money that isn't available and that is why the cuts now were acceded to so quickly. If the goal is to fix the budget, then accept attaining that goal and address future negotiations within the economic boundrys and requirements of that time.

It is an illegitimate argument to say they were honorable and honest this time but, are certain to cripple the state next time.

Absolute power of the unions with a politician or two in their pocket corrupts absolutely as well. No paid for politican should EVER be able to sit in on negotiation with the person that paid them.

I see your point mn and it is a legitimate one to say the least. The problem is the Dems have 3 major contributors in the catagory of groups that have no limit on contributions, the Republicans have 6. The level of contributions is staggeringly slanted to the side of the Republicans yet the balance of power and influence that that money earns is tenuous at best. Taking out the major Dem contributor in this small group would be exactly what Walker and his backers are aiming for, critically damaging.

Back to a Rep negotiating with those that supported him, I would agree completely if, IF, the other reps were not negotiating for the ones that paid them as well. Think about it. You are asking the unions lose support in government while supporting big business singular control of congress. Does that sound fair or even slightly reasonable?

Stop all unlimited contributions, record every penny that is contributed, thereby eliminating these paid for representatives acting as mouth pieces for whomever or, enforce equal representation. Cutting out unions is giving big business and corrupt reps unilatteral control of Congress and the country. No other way to say it.

mn-1062959--the operative word in your post is negotiations. Two sides coming together to a compromised agreement.

Andie,

But if one is paid by the other who is taking care of the taxpayers interest