KEEP FIGHTING for what's right Gov. Walker; stand by your principles!

I totally agree. I'd also add stopping all Foreign Military Sales, because today's "friend" is tomorrow's threat (e.g. Pakistan, China, Saudi Arabia). Stop trying the usual American diplomacy. We propped up failed governments that will bite us in the backside. Our failures in Afghanistan (against the Soviets), Vietnam, etc., won us no friends.

If we deem any country worthy of our military assistance, they can pay us for it. No more Kuwait-type deals. Also, why are we in S. Korea? Their youth protest the US, yet now want us to stay to bail them out if N. Korea comes into play. And countries (like Japan) can pay their own way!

Divert the money to educate AMERICANS so we don't have to import 600k (plus arranged marriages and elderly non-contributing parents) foreigners to take American jobs. A skills shortage in the US should have a corrective action plan. H1B visas should have only been a short-term solution, and not a means to prevent overpopulated countries from correcting their problems...

I wouldn't be surprised if a recall isn't in the offing. Walker is one term and done. He won't receive the support of the police and firefighters that he had hoped for.

The Walker example proves the point, When the power at the top is unaccountable, The people below lose rights, freedom, and their resources. This guy is selling out Wisconsin.

Labor rights = Individual rights = freedom = equality = stability = happiness.

And if you don't want to be a follower, be prepared to live under a bridge or do the puppet masters laundry.

Fracking has some good points, fix the corporate coruption and stop the use of our military for corporate gain. Fix the broken dam. Problem solved.

Well said!

Actually the union employees take their pensions as deferred compensation. They pay 100% of their pensions.

I'd like Governor Walker to truthfully describe how taking away union rights will have any effect on the budget process. His arguements so far have only been one-sided half truths that do nothing but distort the reality of the facts involved.

Example: His statements regarding 'collective bargaining rights allow unions to extract sweetheart deals from governments'. The problem is that he's only blaming half of the people involved. The NON-union people who agree to the 'sweetheart deals' are just as guilty - yet the Governor and all the Tea Party hacks that back him up refuse to deal with that part of the problem. The people who have held HIS current position are just as much to blame as the unions - yet he acts like the unions are the only ones who have committed this flagrant foul.

He's just your basic far right wacko who demonizes something to consolidate his power. Gee - that sounds just like what he's claiming the unions do.

Fracking - that's very good. I don't disagree with anything you said. That would be an excellent starting point. I would also add close Gitmo and try the Bush administration for torture. The first would save money directly, and the second would save money by reducing hate against America and providing added security.

Fracking Nuts,

Not to take anything away from you, I agree 100% with you, but take all of this excess military spending, and put at least a good 1/3 of it into education. These are where the jobs of the future are going to come from and we need to stabalize our future. Also, raise the dropout age to 18 so that way most students can only opt out if they have had four years of high school.

I agree with many of the suggestions made above, particularly the need to get out of Afghanistan, close MOST US military bases abroad, eliminate all foreign aid to countries such as Israel, Egypt, Pakistan and others that do not need economic help to survive, end subsidies to agri-business, punish corporations that move their operations overseas and reward those that create jobs in the USA, but let's not forget that the topic is what the Governor of Wisconsin is doing, not the Federal government budget.

On MTP this morning Walker was repeatedly asked why he made the choice to exclude the firefighter and law enforcement unions from the restrictions on collective bargaining that he wants to place on other public employee unions and was asked whether he was picking 'winner and losers; by selectively picking and choosing who would retain bargaining rights and who would lose the. In conjunction with that he was asked 'shouldn't everyone in Wisconsin be expected to 'share the pain'.

The closest thing to an explanation that Walker offered was that we need to keep our communities safe and secure...does he think that if he passed legislation that he supposedly deems reasonable and necessary that had the same effect on firefighters and law enforcement as on other public employees that those folks would walk off the job?? Does Walker see no inequity and flat out favoritism or at least the appearance thereof in the fact that his legislation excludes the fire fighters and law enforcement unions (which supported his campaign) while seeking to impinge upon the collective bargaining rights of the unions that supported his campaign???

Considering that the public workers unions, in the face of the state's projected shortfall of $137M, were offering up $100M, an offer flat out rejected by Walker any reasonable thinking person has to wonder whether the governor's priorities are fiscal responsibility or union busting!

I was going to post something against Governor Walker, but I have to protest the collapse of 1.1. While I feel the point itself is horrifically uniformed, and that Governor Walker is trying to undo the rights of workers and municipal governments to reach their own accomodations, there was nothing against the CoH in 1.1 at all, and the post had the value of expressing an opinion. It should be restored. I know that's not going to happen. Still, fellow members of the left: there's no need to troll by collapsing!

If the people of Wisconsin want to recall Walker, then so be it; otherwise, they elected him (no doubt to balance the budget) and that's what he's there to do. If Senate Democrats think they can "hide out" (truly pathetic) in order to prevent the governor from doing what he was elected to do, they are sadly mistaken. In 2009 Obama gloated to Republicans who wanted substantial cuts that that wouldn't happen because "we won." It works both ways.

This whole debate is a loser come 2012 Presidential politics. The GOP wants fiscal discipline. The Dem's want to negotiate with the same politicians their unions collect mandatory dues from and provide campaign contributions to. The mistake by the Dem's was to make this a national debate. A smarter move would have been to take the vote in the state houses and run against it in the next election cycle. All this posturing has done is illuminate the fact that Federal employees and most states do not have collective bargaining, and for the few remaining that do, it is a losing issue.

Note this does not mean there is not a place for private sector unions. Let Trumpka do all he can there. It is the public sector unions that have corrupting scenarios. Even a far left liberal on this vine can recognize that bargaining for workers rights with the same administration, Dems in most cases, that their union just made campaign contributions to and helped get elected is corrupting. That si why they do not exist at the Federal level and why Wisconsin is trying to change it.

Futyler?

They are paid from tax payer dollars

Public employees are tax payers too. As for the bargaining thing, surprised you didn't call them money launderers, that is what Rush has been telling you to think all week. In your example, should private unions be excluded from purchasing the products they make?

At two AM when a deer running across the road forcing him off it and his car to roll, hopefully as he waits 40 mins for help to arrive, he remembers that we really do not need professionally paid public sector employees. With lower pay comes reduced professionalism and wider span of control, making fewer personnel go farther, means you wait as your medical golden hour of life drains away. As with any politician tere will be ample support staff to entertain the phone complaints the next morning about why service was delayed.

This isn't about fiscal discipline, or it would have been settled already. This is about union busting and keeping the small percentage of educated and skilled workers willing to work for less in exchange for some benefits, from doing so. What corporation in their right mind would locate a new facility and create new jobs in Wisconsin?

Roy Wilson -

There was an interesting study published in USAToday...

I haven't heard of that study. When was it done, and by whom?

And who funded it?

I just posted (#2.1) and within 10 minutes I've already been collapsed! Thanks LIBERAL HYPOCRITS for trampling on my First Amendment rights!

Nevada -- while I don't personally agree with your position, I do agree you have the right to say it.

Having said THAT, let me educate you a LITTLE on what the First Amendment REALLY says. You see, your RIGHTS have not been "tramped upon" at all.

First, we'll start our little government class by actually printing the First Amendment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Now, to continue with the lesson ... look at the first phrase. "CONGRESS shall make no law"

Now ... since collapsing your remark had nothing to do with Congress (or a law) -- it was other people's OPINION -- which, under the law are as valid as your own, you can see your rights have not been tramped upon at all.

However, had CONGRESS passed a law that said "Nevada's comments will be collapsed if we don't agree with them" .... THAT would have been an infringement of your rights.

You see ... YOU have the right to say it, under the law. WE have the right to agree (by thumbs up) or disagreeing (by the reporting button). Personally, I'd rather see a "thumbs down" button added. If it were there, I think you'd see fewer reports from people merely disagreeing with the poster.

I hope my little lesson has cleared up any ambiguity you have about that part of the First Amendment.

BTW: Again, although I disagree with it, I hope your comment is restored as it was presented in a respectful manner.

"The support of the people", where do you get off on that statement. If I remember correctly during the last election there was a TURNOUT OF AROUND 55% OF ELIGIBLE VOTERS. Now you take the democratic "slice of the election pie and that amounted to 49% and that leaves a WHOPPING MAJORITY OF 2 %. How that GREAT MAJORITY calls itself the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of American voters IS A DOWNRIGHT LIE AND ONE OF THE GREATEST MISREPRESENTATIONS OF THE TRUTH TODAY. Mr Walker is in the Hip pocket of the Koch brothers and is nothing but a pee on sham of a politician, and that will be evident as days progress. This little "wanna be" puppet will never succeed in demanding working people "have to do without collective bargaining". If that terrible day ever arrives again in this country it will mean anarchy will prevail and whatever semblance of order will be lost, AT A TERRIBLE COST TO EVERYONE. It is not unions that are the problem, it is the corporate disregard for human dignity. Tamper with that at your peril!

Fracking -- sorry your comment was collapsed. I thought you had some good ideas presented in a respectful manner.

Hopefully it will be restored.

Oh, but it's all well and good for business to advise the politicians they helped elect. You don't have the brains God gave gravel.

Who makes the decision to collapse it? I have seen comments using the F-word, B-word, N-word, Fag#ot, and a host of other racist, derogetory and viscious terms as well as threatening. How do those stay up there.. for days while something like this is collapsed in minutes. I even see adds that are there days later.....

And Beth.. great points... but the "Lesson" approach..... maybe you need to rub his nose in it, whack him with a news paper and be just a little more condescending...

futyler

Why are tax dollars any different than the dollars you pay for private services which you support and which are required? Do you get to set the wages and rights of your insurance co. employees? Or the gas station attendent? you pay their Their salary.. The argument the gop uses is is full of holes and only meant to divide labor while the big boys rape everything in sight including your freedom.

Freedom205,

Your prespective is entirely uninformed. Firstly, we spend more 6 times the amount that any country pays for military, we spend nearly half of all the worlds military spending, and the country that spends the second most is China, who spends six percent of all military spending.

Also, maybe people presecute Bush still because he realled f*cked up the country, and Clinton only f*cked up a secretary.

Beth, if you're going to use fact and reason you'll throw this whole thing out of kilter. Talkinghead entertainers are the basis for a lot of the input here. We are not a nation of people who want to do more than parrot what our 'heroes' tell us to say.

The cons seem to think this is for libs and the libs think it's all cons. As an independent it's easy to see the bias. And as with most major issues the reality is somewhere between these two factions. I would bet that a LOT of posters here are not union employees but think that holidays, sick days, health care and any other bennies they enjoy were through the good graces of their employers when, in fact, they were ALL won by unions. I have not been, nor am I now, a union member so I have no axe to grind but reality.

Fed employees do have unions.. I have paid yearly dues to the National Postal Mail Handlers Union for at least 20+ years, even though I worked for/retired from another Federal agency. Maybe not a traditional union, but they had the best available health insurance plan so I joined as an associate, and like all the others, the premiums keep going up every year.

Why hasn't anyone picked up on the Rachel Maddow episode about Walker at his last 'job' and his replacing union public workers with the same contractors who were exposed exposing themselves in Iraq/Afghanistan? Believe she said his decision to 'contract out' was overturned and the workers had to be rehired..???

So Ray4a- are you saying the SAME THINGS about Obama since he is bought and paid for by Soros?

just curious...

Fire Fighters, Police and Medical personnel should be some of the highest paid - aside from the military, they volunteer to do some of the most dangerous jobs in the world.

The teachers union is the largest union in existence, the least accountable, paid too much with excessive fringe benefits. Why?

There is no guarantee for "union" existence in the United States Constitution or State Constitutions and I don't really care what the President says - I voted for him, but I am allowed to disagree with his point of view.

Here is the solution: Lay off everyone, and force those who could be eligble for early retirement - into retirement. Write new State, County and City employment by-laws and charters which include the ban on unions, reset pay scales and employee contributions, utilize a merit based promotion system that includes, yet minimizes time in grade / time in service, if you do your job well, you get paid well; if not, you get paid the least! There is one caveat - if state governments takes this drastic of a measure - then they need to appoint an independent organization - like a credit counselor - to help rewrite some of their employment laws so that civil servants and state governments can co-exist knowing that the pay is fair, services will be available, and the budget will be balanced.

And Beth.. great points... but the "Lesson" approach..... maybe you need to rub his nose in it, whack him with a news paper and be just a little more condescending...

Yes .. you're right, I probably SHOULD. The ignorance and extremism up here is appalling. It is only a bit of "condescending" and "sarcasm" that ever garners attention.

I'm sorry, I think the fight in Wisconsin shows how moronic each side is. The fight for and against unions, regardless of your favorite team, has been waged more effectively and in a less embarrassing way for each side countless times. But apparently, and I didn't know this, the Wisconsin Tea Party politicos, and the union nay sayers, have HUGE egos.

If you don't want to pay teachers, you cut the budget for them. And if they want to, they strike. And if you think it is a good enough idea, you fire them. SOMEWHERE and ALWAYS before it gets to that point, people start negotiating. Collective bargaining 'rights' are stupid, and you know what you'll have once you legislate them away? Enough people walking out on your job to shut down your system anyway. And when the union isn't funding its special interests with tax money?, Oh wait! Religions still will with the money they save on tax breaks. Same with corporations. And money will support the unions anyway. So get off your idealogical high horses, and realize this is a simple battle of egos. This is what our 'leaders' are interested in. Not results. Just fame.

At least I can make fun of Wisconsin now. Being from New Jersey, we usually get the short end of the stick. But suddenly, our state doesn't look so bad! ;)

Hey guys, don't worry about the rabid left collapsing your posts. When I'm skimming, I always stop and look at the collapsed posts. They're usually the good ones. I think everyone with a brain looks at the collapsed posts. Thanks for helping me out liberal lemmings.

I just posted (#2.1) and within 10 minutes I've already been collapsed! Thanks LIBERAL HYPOCRITS for trampling on my First Amendment rights!

Right wing, teabag nut job sites do the same thing. Some don't even allow you to post at all. That's how they keep their numbers high. SO QUIT WHINING!

Double Jeopardy:

Most dangerous jobs? Cops? Firefighters? Medical personnel? NOT EVEN.

Cops don't even make the top 10 list.

The people who feed us, put roofs over our heads, and even the folks who pick up our garbage have more dangerous jobs than cops and/or firefighters.

There's plenty of links, but here's one: http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-04-08/the-20-most-dangerous-jobs/

D- I do the same thing, and I got collapsed today! Usually anything with actual thought has been shut down.

Tony- where are you looking? I subscribe to many sites and have NEVER seen anything like Newsvine!! This place shuts you down the instant you present a counterpoint to a liberal view! I would say that most, if not all conservative sites allow for frank and open debate with both sides invited. I actually enjoy reading the counterpoints to my view. I don't buy into to them, but most people make valid points and should be heard.

What I don't like is name calling ("teabagger", "Socialist", etc...). We can be civil and have a discussion without going back to the 1st grade.

May 1933 Adolf Hitler abolishes labor unions.

@done that - that's bs and you know it. There are quite a few left leading posts that get collapsed too. It depends on the content. I guess that Newsvine is good at sniffing out the trolls who's only goal is get on as many sites as possible to make it look like there's more support than there is. And try getting on "The Angry White Dude" with an objective view and see if it's posted. There are others but I don't remember the names. Name slinging is prevalent to both sides. If I had a buck for every time i've been called a "libretard" i'd be a rich conservative with no regard to my fellow citizens. Please, don't try to be all reverent and call people out for petty things like that.

Beth,

Yes .. you're right, I probably SHOULD. The ignorance and extremism up here is appalling. It is only a bit of "condescending" and "sarcasm" that ever garners attention.

You are absolutely right. In that vein, I should point out that the Fourteenth Amendment applies the First Amendment to the states, so any state actor can be liable for a violation of the right to free speech. So, while the gist of your comment at 1.24 was correct, your assertion that it is limited to acts of Congress has not been correct since, at the latest, 1925 - when the Supreme Court decided Gitlow v. New York, 268 U.S. 652 (1925).

So, yeah, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

@g.bud

I've never heard of a private company, designating a union representative to bargain against the union...key word, what I "choose" to spend my money on is just that...and if I could, I would never, never, ever, ever pay for anything or service that was created by "Labor" labor

Ok You make no sense or have any logic in that response. You can choose how you spend your money, but you can't designate what the service provider charges or pays his employees. And everything is created by labor so how can you never ever use anything?

Now if you don't want to spend any money or use any labor services whether public or private, You don't have much of an option but to go live with the squirrels and get your education and nessesities from them. Tea party on!

Tony, dear Tony. I will call out name calling each and every time. I don't do it because it's completely unproductive. If you have to resort to name calling- you've already lost the argument and most people stop listening. Sorry you got called names, you deserve better if only for the sake of argument.

And I know what exactly?? I am ON conservative boards as much as I am here and I do NOT EVER see as much collapsing as I do here. This is WAY beyond the normal discourse of rational discussion. If someone does not agree with someone- they collapse them as to eradicate their voice! Tell me how that is NOT childish!! It's like sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la la la! I can't hear you!" that kind of behavior is pathetic.

So, while the gist of your comment at 1.24 was correct, your assertion that it is limited to acts of Congress has not been correct since, at the latest, 1925 - when the Supreme Court decided Gitlow v. New York, 268 U.S. 652 (1925).

While this is correct, I didn't say it was LIMITED to Congress -- but that CONGRESS shall pass no law. Exactly what it says. My point was, and still is, that collapsing comments has nothing to do with the First Amendment rights, which people love to screech up here as soon as they are collapsed!

For the record -- I also vote to collapse comments:

1. If they are laced with profanity (no matter how many fake characters are used)

2. If they are blatantly "hate" posts aimed at another Newsvine poster.

I love the collapsed comments!! That's where the real gold is- most of the time!!

Beth you're right though- I don't like the name calling and profanity- no need for it and it shows a decided lack of intellegence and depth.

Beth,

I won't shame you by reposting your entire comment at 1.24, but it is pretty clear what your statement was to anyone who took the time to read it. While your point might have been that Nevada's rights under the First Amendment were not infringed by the collapse of his post by private actors (which is correct), you seem to have overlooked the point of my post - which was that if you are going to make a legal argument, you should determine what the law actually is before doing so. It will save you a lot of embarrassment.

To those who have only just now noted collapsed posts:

Both left and right do it. The extremists have no tolerance for their counterpart extremists.

It would certainly be nice if the Newsvine folks would go with up or down arrows.

I will call out name calling each and every time. I don't do it because it's completely unproductive. If you have to resort to name calling- you've already lost the argument and most people stop listening.

You are a complete hypocrite. I never lose arguments to folks like you because you only see one side. To be good at it, you need to be objective. Not too many of you folks are. Now, the next time a Democrat is called a name, I want to see you admonish that person. Then, maybe then, I'll believe in what you say. Have a wonderful day.

Tony, Actually- to call out each person that does it would take 1000 posts!! Not gonna happen. I choose not to read the second I come across name calling- from either side. I just don't see the point of it and if someone has to call names- they are obviously too unintelligent to have cognitive thought, and it wastes my time.

If someone wants to make me think- make a rational argument. Without that- I have no patience.

And to say you never lose an argument to "folks like me" says you already are completely slanted in your view. Please don't tell me you are the objective one that sees all sides- because clearly you don't.

Fracking Nuts, Etal You comments have nothing to do with the Issue. The reason the United States all the bases around the world, is because we have corporate interest around the world.

While this may also be seen as consequence of WWI, the real result of WWII is that the future then was seen as depending on Oil.

It is a circular argument that is none the less is true; the corporate capitalization of the world was a central goal at the end of WWII, because it was the capitalist system that was able to provide all the armaments that lead to both world wars.

The world would have very likely progressed onto WWIII, except for one single development, a single development that would have made total war impossible to win.

The world was in effect taken a back by the sudden and unexpected development of nuclear weapons.

It was the game changer that very few of our current political leaders can remotely conceive.

The misconception is in the sense that when a change of direction is impossible to avoid, the politician seeks to avoid it by taking the country backward.

The pandering politician then selects which old battles the wish to play out their careers with.

It is like the personality of brat, who when they do get their way, throw a temper tantrum, costing billions, wasting resources, wasting time, wasting energy, and squandering lives, and more than one occasion murdering millions.

Yes the United States is the World’s police force, but it is a desperate gamble, because it merely stops small crimes here and there.

The real purposes are to capture ideas and disciplines from throughout the world, ideas the United States cannot develop on its own.

So many bases in Germany is not even a question the Germans caused at least two world wars were defeated and number of times, and yet today are again poised to achieve greatness.

Nowhere in the United States is the education system producing effective careers, outside of the professional careers, yet the Germans have many trained in depth to maintain its industrial base.

The United States has given up entirely on its industry is engineers, software wage workers, scientists, or anyone who can produce a product, in favor of amoral financial wizards, making money from money without product.

As for all the Tea China - Read On.

So, The news today is the California Teachers Pension Plan is on the verge of insolvency? Do you get that? Hello! Is anybody listening?

So what can we learn for this? Well I think it is obvious that every freakin time the Government starts a program like this and make big promises to buy votes from union members they turn around and screw the members.

Honestly. they sell you all on the wonderful things they are going to provide for you if you just vote for them. Then they get you to send them money or just take it out of you paycheck and collect it all up. Then they tell you everything is going to be just dandy. Then they spend all of that money on other crap and pay off their union buddies who give some back for the election campaigns.

So here we are. They spent all of your money on other crap that was supposed to be safe for your retirement. They have lied to you all along and now you are going to be screwed out of what they promised you.

But you, as a union member will still send in your dues to get these liars re-elected.

Wouldn't have been better if you were in control of your own retirement dollars? Don't you wish you had been in control of your own retirement savings instead of these fecal heads who spent it all?

I think you union members better wise up and figure out who is really screwing you. Stop trusting politicians with your money and your lives and I think you will better outcome in the end.

Just saying.

I do find as many crackpots who claim to be on the 'right' to collapse posts as the crackpots who claim to be from the 'left.' And yes, all it really does is get me to be more curious and open the post. And yes, the comments that matter end up getting restored anyway. So, truth, the only comment that get collapsed that matters is the comment from an author you chose to ignore.

The state deficits were not caused by state workers wages or benefits, they were caused by the economic crisis that Wall Street and other businesses caused.

It's criminal that the federal government doesn't bail out the state governments like they bailed-out the Wall Street multimillionaires who swindled the economy off of a cliff, causing the crisis.

Scott Walker and what he's doing is just the latest chapter of the class warfare the rich have been waging against everyone for centuries.

If they want to fix the deficit (if that is even the smart thing to do, federal deficits are not as bad as surpluses for the majority of people most of the time) there are plenty of places to look first for the money.

For instance:

You could cut the military budget in half and we'd probably still spend more than any other country on "defense". Currently we spend more than all of the other industrialized countries combined.

Many years most U.S. corporations pay NO taxes even when they make billions of dollars in profits. Some who pay no taxes even get hundreds of millions of dollars in rebates!

More wealth is concentrated in the bank accounts and assets of the richest 10% of americans than at any time since the Gilded Age. Raise the income taxes and more importantly raise the capital gains tax significantly because most of the rich get their compensation in the form of capital gains since it is only taxed at 15%.

Don't worry about the rich, they will always do just fine (even if they have a bit less money) because all they care about is themselves.

That's the main reasons they're rich!

I'm sure it's been pointed out ad nauseum, but you can't claim to be trying to balance the budget at the cost of personal rights while cutting taxes. You can't go one way like that, and then go back the other, and expect to make progress. I can't imagine that there are actually people out there who aren't thinking along incredibly partisan lines who think that making both of these moves at once are actually intended to affect the budget. Of course, doing bot might be hurting their budget overall, but no one should be giving tax cuts and purporting to be attempting to affect the budget positively.

Richmjones i agree completely but the reason so many bases are in germany is that they were supposed to be our first line of defense against the russians who are no longer a threat. The countries like germany, japan and south korea that we defend dont have to use government money for defense and use it for education and you are right to many kids these days watch wall street or mtv cribs and just want to make millions shuffling other peoples money.But its hard not for them to when every day they see on the news that somebody on wall street got a 50 million bonus today. If you ask me these bonuses are straight out theft of the shareholders money and every shareholder should be able to vote on the bonuses

ArchStanton,

Many years most U.S. coorporations pay NO taxes even when they make billions of dollars in profits. Some who pay no taxes even get hundreds of millions of dollars in rebates!

OK here we go again. Arch, who pays cooperate taxes? Answer, YOU DO! If you really think that cooperate taxes or lack there of is the cause of this mess you need an education. You probably are a very smart person but you argument is false.

No cooperation or business pays a tax that they do not pass along to YOU the consumer in the price of their product or service. I dumbfounds me that folks like you cannot see that.

For instance you like toilet paper right? Well how much tax is passed along to you when you buy it? I really have no idea either but logic tells me it is there. I would go out and get the facts about it bu I don't think it is worth my time on something that is obvious. The company's tat cut the tree to send to the mill is taxed. The mill that makes the pulp to make it is taxed. The trucking company to bring it to you is taxed. The store that sells it to you is taxed. You go and buy some and YOU pay all of those taxes.

Are you going to argue that point? If you do you are not that smart.

Get it through your head. As much as you would like to believe that corperations don't pay their fair share because you have been told to. Just because you have been told to believe that it does not make it so.

Your toilet paper is more expensive that it really is because of the tax imposed on business.

So lets say for instance we get the Fair Tax in place and no business has to pay any tax.

Ummm , let that sink in a second.

Now than you will have to pay all of those wonderful hidden taxes that you never even knew you paid. Or you knew and conveniently ignored.

Well it probably will amount to about 27% National Sales Tax. People alot smarter than me have that figured out. So in essence you are already paying to your Government about 27% on a product combining all of the other taxes you pay. We are talking FEDERAL taxes not State or Local.

Sorry to burst your bubble but you pay all of that. Not corporations. Not Walmart, not Kraft, not Exxon, not McDonald's, not Hallmark, not Brass Buckle, not Macy's, not anybody you think you want to blame.

If you get your way, you will pay more for everything you buy for yourself.

Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong. If you really use that brain of yours you will not be able to.

Love ya man, But you can't have my Bud Light. Which has alot of tax hidden in the price too.

It looks like the Gov of Wisconsin is acting like a bully imo.

When you threaten to fire workers if you do not get your way....... is bullying

When you lay off workers and refuse to talk about a compromise .... that is bullying

The reason that the police, firefighters, etc unions were exempt from the Gov's removal of collective bargening move was because they endorsed him..... now they are with the other unions because they probably realize that what is given now can be taken away later... so the gov could introduce a bill to get rid of the police, firefighters etc unions later when they least expect it.

Other states who have public unions have worked with their unions to get the cuts they needed without bullying.

There are other republican govs who are trying to get rid of private unions also, so it is not only the public unions in Wisconsin that is under attack but private unions and in other states that have republican govs.

Another sticking point with many folks is that little thing about "no bid" contracts/ sales of public services/ property, and the fact that these no bids would/could be done by the govenor privately/alone without these bids being made public or up for open/public bidding. The question is how does this 'no bid' thing help the people of Wisconsin? How does it help to balance the budget? Who provides oversight for these "no bids"?

It has been noted that when the gov took office the state was budget neutral and the gov gave tax breaks to corporation in and out of state that resulted in the budget deficit, of which he seems to be now blaming on the public employees/unions. Hmmmm

Could it be that these guys are picking on the teachers and their unions specifically because teachers are predominantly female.......

Isn't it telling that in the professions that are predominantly female like teaching and nursing, these folks seem to receive less pay? Hmmmm

jgplol,

Now there is something I can agree with. The Wall Street fat cats are raping us. Such bonuses are excessively sickening. I have a 401K like a great many of us. I feel that they are stealing any profits from us. Every statement I have had from my 401 has bee disappointing to say the least.

But then again what is your answer to stop the big bonuses? I guess one thing that is comforting is is they claim that kind of income they do have to pay income tax on it.

I am a conservative and a Tea Party backer. But do I really want my Government to tell me how much, do I make is too much? Do you? If you make 5 million per year is that too much? How about 1 million? Or 150 thousand? or 50 thousand?

I will put you in charge. you tell me how much is too much for me to make.

Then you will have the responsibility for being the Great Decider. Let us all know you plan to make it all fair in a world that is in all aspects unfair.

Thanks

BZe1:

All very noble thoughts; but how does the state of Wisconsin continue to pay these people. What part of broke do you not understand?

spider (now this is said sarcastically and with humor), what part of broke do you not understand? Don't you know our politicians on either side of the aisle just use the word 'broke' to borrow more money and send it to the people who voted for them while taking away from those who didn't? It takes two parties of hate to get us in the debt we are in, and it looks like they'll keep it up! There aint no sun on one side of THIS planet, here ;)

spider-737231,

What part of broke do you not understand?

They don't uderstand broke because they think there is no limit to how much the Government can print and the dollar they have is still worth something.

Just a simple man's way of thinking.

It seems that most on newsvive agree with Walker on this issue.

http://www.newsmax.com/surveys/results/id/9?PROMO_CODE=BB8B-1

Those who disagree are next to nonexistent.

Another national scientific poll favors Walker.

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/02/21/rasmussen-poll-shows-walker-winning-standoff-with-unions-dems/

Done That....

You amuse me with your pseudo-intellectual, quasi-philosophical posts...chastising people for using profanity and name calling. The adage that those actions arise from a lack of intelligence went away with your great, great grand father. There are people out there that can make you look like a fool without you even knowing it...and then there are those who would rather cut to the chase. Either way...a moron is still a moron...and for those who posses true intellect...this will be obvious with or without the existence of either. That said...those who support the actions of Gov. Walker, obviously are still doing homework out of Dick and Jane books. Have a nice day!

spider....

What part of no more gaping tax loopholes for the wealthy and large corporations do you not understand?...what part of cut the military budget by 50% do you not understand?....what part of no more corporate welfare do you not understand?...what part of lets do business in America, with American labor or face MAJOR penalties do you not understand?...what part of lets tax the top 5% of wage earners at a flat 45% do you not understand? Oh yea...I almost forgot...what part of, if you divest and attempt to move your business overseas, 75% of you net assets goes to the US taxpayers before you establish elsewhere do you not understand? If you need more suggestions...there's plenty left! There are plenty of options if we put greed aside!

mucker87

"What part of no more gaping tax loopholes for the wealthy and large corporations do you not understand?...what part of cut the military budget by 50% do you not understand?....what part of no more corporate welfare do you not understand?...what part of lets do business in America, with American labor or face MAJOR penalties do you not understand?...what part of lets tax the top 5% of wage earners at a flat 45% do you not understand? Oh yea...I almost forgot...what part of, if you divest and attempt to move your business overseas, 75% of you net assets goes to the US taxpayers before you establish elsewhere do you not understand? If you need more suggestions...there's plenty left! There are plenty of options if we put greed aside!"

I guess I don't understand the part of welfare for anyone. I was brought up with the understanding that if you don't work, you don't eat. Taking 35% from the weathy in taxes seems more than fair. They should not get any tax breaks that others don't get. Same goes for the earned income credit. Don't pay taxes yet get something back. Why? Why not do away with all tax breaks for everyone, then get a $20000 deduction for a single and $40000 deduction for the married and tax the rest equally regardless or the amount made. If you don't make that much, that is your fault - not the government. No more kid deductions, no more mortgage deductions, no medical deductions, no charity, property tax or any other kind of deductions. Of course businesses would be ableto deduct actual expenses and that is it.

Pick a tax rate above the 20/40k threashhold and everyone pays the same. If you don't make that much then you don't pay and don't get anything you have not earned. I don't care what the top 5% makes. They earned it, for whatever reason andshould pay the same tax as everyone else.

What part of that don't you understand? Put your envy aside and quit whining.

Maybe you haven't ready the constitution lately, but the Military was provided for in it. I would rather be 20 years ahead of the game than 20 years behind. As for the rest, whittle it back starting with government employees who are not needed and roll back their retirements to SSI and medicare. Eliminate medicaid. Most of those getting it never paid for it. It is the don't work don't eat thing I mentioned earlier. I know you have a bleeding heard and want to whine about that too, but it is expected.

Want needs to happen is going to hurt everyone. The best we can do is vote for those willing to make the tough decisions and quit blaming those who are already paying most of your/our bills - the wealthy.

I totally agree with Fracking Nuts' original post and anyone else who built upon his list.

While I personally don't agree with exactly what Gov. Walker is trying to do, (especially because he's gone after teachers in particular), collapsing commenters simply for supporting him is childish to say the least.

If the guy had gone after equal concessions from all public unions in his State, he'd have a much stronger position, but after the way he's played favoritism with the public unions that endorsed his run for office, he has undermined his own integrity.

Here is proof that union 'goons' are trolling this vine and 'collapsing' those comments that they disagree with.

Just hit the + button for my comments at #1.15 and #1.21 and see if you can find any violations of the conduct code, or whether they were collapsed because they don't like my opinion.

Also watch how long it takes for them to 'collapse' this comment.

lol

sherri2012 "Roy Wilson - There was an interesting study published in USAToday...I haven't heard of that study. When was it done, and by whom?"

You must have seen my comment before it was 'collapsed' by the liberals who only believe in free speech for those that agree with THEM.

In any event, here is the link - I hope you see this before this comment is 'collapsed' too;

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/2010-08-10-1Afedpay10_ST_N.htm

A reminder: our founding fathers met in a union hall--Carpenter's Hall in Phila.--to create our country. I believe it's still an active building for the carpenter union.

Everything government does is for the benefit of businesses. If unions are in the way of profits, then the businesses will appeal to the government to create laws in their favor. End of story.

retired '08

"A reminder: our founding fathers met in a union hall--Carpenter's Hall in Phila.--to create our country. I believe it's still an active building for the carpenter union."

It was never a union hall, but a carpenters guild and is not a union hall today but a historic site open to the public.

The last time I visited Carpenters' Hall, new names--with the current year noted--went up on the walls honoring their own. It is more than just a historic sight judging by the additions.

Bob Randall...

Thank you for your insightful rebuttal...while I still disagree with your core thoughts...you present a refreshing compromise that can be worked to a possible solution. I just wish more posters on this site were as objective as yourself. That said...while I truly appreciate your upbringing...the "don't work, don't eat" thing is a purely economic impossibility. Even in the best of times (which we may never see again) there will only be enough "life sustaining" jobs for 65%-70% of American households. "Life-sustaining" as defined by the CBO is approximately 2.3 x the minimum wage rate for a family of 3 (2 adults and 1 child). I don't know about you and where you live...but $16 an hour is just barely above poverty level to support a wife and child where I'm from...especially with no benefits. I'm fortunate, and have a very good job with great benefits. With that job, I travel a lot to places like New York City, Boston, Chicago, LA and I guarantee you that it takes a lot more than that to sustain in those areas. The bulk of Americans don't understand how much more expensive it is to sustain in an urban society than in rural areas. You seen gas prices today...$3.37 a gallon, expected to rise $.30 more by next week. Bottom line...from any economist...there will simply not be enough jobs to "sustain" even in the best scenario. There was a time...up through the Great Depression when your "don't work, don't eat" adage applied and countless millions of people, particularly in Appalachia perished due to the lack of food, disease and non existent medical care. Put this into perspective...we have over 3X the population now as in 1929...do we just simply cast those people aside and let Social Darwinism decide their fate? It doesn't have to be that way if only everyone didn't try to scam "The Man". Wall Street is nothing more than a "legal" crime syndicate and our convoluted tax code allowing the wealthy and billion dollar corporations to pay 0 (zero) taxes! Its time to wake up and realize that the old days and old ways no longer apply...our society will fail dramatically if we don't think progressively!

mucker,

It doesn't have to be that way if only everyone didn't try to scam "The Man". Wall Street is nothing more than a "legal" crime syndicate and our convoluted tax code allowing the wealthy and billion dollar corporations to pay 0 (zero) taxes! Its time to wake up and realize that the old days and old ways no longer apply...our society will fail dramatically if we don't think progressively!

Boy for a second there I thougth you were going somewhere. But then you blew it on the conclusion. Look, let's assume for a second that all your premise were true. We get down to the the point where you want to do this "progressive" thing where the "old ways no longer apply" ... but that new way has to still sustain the "old way" public sector unions! ... or at least in your opinion.

How about we step back two or three steps and think a moment. To fix all that is wrong a whole bunch of things will have to change: entitlements; tax codes; size of government, etc. These changes will effect every one of us and we'll all be PO'ed in one way or another. So ... what's the first thing out of the box but union thuggery that throws a fit, Senators that run away from their job, and refusal to take a first step somewhere.

Look, I'm ready to work a couple more years if I have to, maybe pay a little more if it comes to that ... but anyone who is honest with themselves knows that a system where public service unions raise funds through taxes to elect politicians that favor their settlements in order to raise dues which they use to elect more politicians... is going to someday run out of pockets to suck dry.

Discuss ... sure. Protest ... whatever! Abandon your post ... gutless and unworthy of office in this country! To regain our economy, our wealth, and finally our jobs is going to take a lot from ALL of us. This crappy Left wing bullying is the WORST of America. If you want me to think about supporting your "progressive" ways you better be a lot more adult than what I'm seeing right now.

If this is progressive-ness ... it's the last thing we should think of!

Astonished...

With all due respect...the "sacrifice" from the union workers can be accomplished without removing the right to collective bargaining. Concessions that would substantially aid the economic situations have already been proposed and informally agreed upon. The elimination of collective bargaining is very obviously a pure and simple union busting tactic orchestrated by the Koch brothers and Gov. Walker for greater ease of contract manipulation. Anyone who fought for collective bargaining rights knows and understands that losing this tool is akin to swimming the English Channel without arms. Sorry man...the Bully Pulpit is exclusive to Walker and his cronies in this instance. Its a control issue...and labor is simply not going to hand over control of their existence and livelihood to a bunch of aloof politicians. That is the "adult" and "progressive" (not regressive) way to view the situation. This argument is not about money or the budget...it never has been ...its about breaking the unions. Got news for you...the "sleeping giant" is now awake.

Mucker,

Well then I think you need to get your facts straight. There's no removal of the so called "right". You can still bargain ... just not for benefits. Your worker "rights" are covered under federal Civil Service laws.

You're "giant" comment ... Whatever! Just kill the goose and wonder why you starve!

Astonished...

C'mon man...I thought you were smarter than that?? Don't start playing the FOX News "twist" game. You're talking to someone who has written collective bargaining guidelines for a major Union. You know, and I know that's not true...the way the law is written...the collective bargaining stops when the legislature deems it necessary! That's NOT collective bargaining by anybody's standard. Collective bargaining has everything to do with finding common ground between two parties with a disagreement...not one side saying..."We understand your postion, but we're still doing it our way because we can". That's the reality of the situation. On top of that...in the "fine print"...the legislature can adjust wages and benefits on the fly accordingly to balance the budget. Read it man (Wiscinson and Ohio both)...I have! Trust me my facts are straight.

BTW...We are all tired of feeding the "goose" and the goose keeps getting fatter without giving up some of the "golden eggs" if you get my drift.

I agree

How much longer , Before folks start noticing the Geese" like Kerry ,Rangle ,geithner ....don't pay at taxes ,at all ?

kraft...you are correct...no one is exempt...I don't care which party your from! George Soros, to the Koch brothers, to Donald Trump, to the list goes on and on. We, the middle class are sick and tired of bearing the financial burden that the wealthy has ignored for generations! It's time to pay up deadbeats!

mucker

You're talking to someone who has written collective bargaining guidelines for a major Union.

Sounds like a vested interest to me!

Now your point on taxes in the following response. FINE! If you want to discuss tax reform, that's another topic. We may agree on some points. But the ability for government workers to negotiate contracts with elected officials where part of the negotiation goes into mandatory collection of union dues ... that help elect the officials ...

Nope! Not buying! This part needs fixing too.

... and nothing like assigning any opinion other than yours to result from Fox News. You must really be afraid of them!

No recall sad to say, as Wisconsin law allows a state elected official one year in office before this can be done! But, 4 republicans in the Assembly broke with this nut and it shows that even in his own party people are getting fed up!

His popularity is increasing

It's decrease "of no importance"

"Walker is the least popular figure among those surveyed, with 43 percent of likely voters agreeing with his stance and 53 percent disagreeing; contrast that with state GOP lawmakers (48-46 agree), state Democratic lawmakers (56-39), Unions (59-37), the protesters (62-31), and public employees (67-24)."

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/robert-schlesinger/2011/02/22/poll-voters-oppose-wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-in-union-standoff

Freedom Fighter, you have been watching to much Chris Mathews. I live in the area, unbelievable support for this guy. He is not backing down to these libs. This must be driving them nuts, they are used to throwing hissy fits and getting their way.

Brad,

Only 37% of Wisconsin residents agree with you. This does not seem overwhelming to me.

JKH

Eric!

Stop with links, sources, facts, polls, etc... these teabaggers won't know what to do until Monday when Rush tells them what to say.

So far there has been NO local or state polling, so not sure where you are getting your "facts" from. Every national poll has him up 2 to 1 in every area except when it comes to the collective bargaining issue (where he trails by a small margin)

Eric - surely you can do better than quoting a bias poll.

Of course the poll numbers look that way when the pollster conducting the poll is" Greenberg Quinlan Rosner, a respected Democratic polling firm.

It's rubbish. Until I see a Harris or Gallup or other recognized reputable "non-partisan" poll, I wont not buy into it.

You are so wrong-he has 71% support in Wisconsin. Quit listening to that lame brain Chris Matthews.

America NEEDS political leaders like the governor. Tough decisions need to be made in America. Because a few spoiled government employees throw a tantrum, and the unscrupulous press supports them, does not make this miniority in the right!

Political Corruption has bankrupted America, and that includes Obama and his false promises. How is "change" working out?

If America thinks this is a "recovery", as Obama and his administration state, America is in a sorry state - record foreclosures, banks closing, record debt, unfair trade agreements, rising prices, and a corrupt government!

We are living the collapse of America!

I agree that public employees, specifically teachers are way underpaid. But this is not what this is about. It is about the financial costs of the benefits. In the private sector my health insurance has risen from $7,000 per year 8 years ago to $24,000 per year without any significant health issues. My employer pays 1/2 of these costs.

Those costs coupled with the "forever" salary through pensions are unsustainable. Drop these, put the public sector on par with the private sector who has to foot the bill, and give every teacher a significant raise.

With today's responses by Governor Walker, he is continuing to demonstrate his weakness and inability to lead. You can't just offer up a Hobson's choice and call it democracy.

The unions have agreed to concessions. Who does this guy think he is. The layoffs he is threatening won't balance the budget or any way near that. We have the same thing happening in Ohio. These governors wer not put in office to throw dirt on the grave of the middle class. They were put there to do a job. Cut pork spending and trim the state budge. Taking away bargaining rights will not work. If the public sector employees loose thier right to bargain for fair wages and benefits things will be very bad for a long long time.

There are plenty of alternatives to this and they are much more realistic to produce the cut in costs that needs to be made. Unions are fully aware that they will have to give up some things in these time. For this Governor and Ohio's to no bargain in good faith is why unions were formed in the first place.

cdahl,

misery loves company eh? Why are your costs up? One word: profits. Everyone in the chain wants to skim profit. You don't get profit, YOU pay profit by letting them rip you off. If you think that getting rid of union wage and benefits is going to help YOU you are just the fool they are counting on hating the group you have been focused on through propaganda. Kill unions and eat your own children. Unions did not take us where we are today. Business decisions to protect profits for parasites though the usurpation of the political system with same excess profits brought us low. You come off as a house neggir wannabee. You sir, are a fascist, whether you know it or not.

Yeah, you buy into the "but they create jobs" myth. They control the jobs and hold workers over the barrel while they milk them of their productivity. We have so many wealthy businessmen in this country. Where are the jobs? Why is this the way? Look to business and government symbiosis: FASCISM!

If layoffs are how it's going to go, so be it. No one seems to be saying they want it to happen, but that's where it's headed and we might as well get on with it. Talk is cheap, Mr. Governor. Go ahead and be the one to lay off state employees. If he does it, he will ultimately pay for it with his OWN job, and he knows it. He may be willing to pay that price, and Wisconsin voters will be the ones to decide if this purely political ploy pays off. Union members are fighting for what they've earned, and are negotiating in good faith. The governor doesn't care about the workers, obviously. He can't wait to leave his ideological mark on Madison. That's all this is about. Pure conservative ideology, and anti-union dogma.

Changes to collective bargaining practices will have ZERO impact on the budget right now. State and local budgets will improve as the economy does, so pretending that banning collective bargaining is necessary to balance future budgets is ludicrous, PARTICULARLY after the unions have ALREADY conceded on their own benefit contributions, which the governor said he needs. The state workers are agreeing to pay more, even though they now have those horrible, nasty, "collectively-bargained" contracts in-hand. The public employee unions are sounding pretty damn reasonable here. The governor is NOT.

The proof is in the pudding - Walker wants to kill unions, based on pure conservative principles. Balancing budgets has nothing to do with eliminating collective bargaining. And that's all she wrote on this one.

No way, I say.

His popularity is increasing

With whom? The polls show he's dying in his own state. In fact, this whole fiasco of his has been a real gift to the dems who needed a way to motivate their base. In fact, you can tune in Limbaugh or whoever, and they are bombarded with callers who literally now hate them. Good job, walker!

Walker should lay the whole crew off and hire citizens to fill these jobs,the teachers do not teach and lie about being sick,what a example they set for the kids, unions need to be disbanded before they ship every job to china and india. They are greedy parasites feeding off the real working taxpayer.

Walker wont back down...he's too deep in the pockets of the Koch brothers....if they tell him to jump..he asks: "How high?"..the man is an embarrassment to the state of Wisconsin....

Teachers deserve our respect, and I for one, will not tolerate the dictatorship hatred of all they do. Witzz, if you don't like the teachers, too bad. They're worth far more than you are.

the man is an embarrassment to the state of Wisconsin

to himself, to his family and to the nation

Some national polling results: last week from Gallop and USA Today:

"According to the survey, 61 percent of adults across the country oppose Walker plan to strip public workers of their collective bargaining rights. Democrats oppose the idea overwhelmingly (18 percent in favor, 78 percent oppose), and independents line up against the idea by a 2-to-1 margin (31-62). Only Republicans like it, and that by a relatively close margin (54-41).

the only income group among those polled by Gallup that favors the governor's proposal to roll back public employee bargaining rights are those who make over $90,000.

The median average in the United States is around $50,000. The average salary for a Wisconsin public school teacher is around $48,000.

Continue reading on Examiner.com: Polling data: Income levels may be the true divide in Wisconsin labor dispute - National populist | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/populist-in-national/polling-data-income-levels-may-be-the-true-divide-wisconsin-labor-dispute#ixzz1FBCOPWLm

You are so wrong-he has 71% support in Wisconsin

Says who?

the only income group among those polled by Gallup that favors the governor's proposal to roll back public employee bargaining rights are those who make over $90,000.

Time to increase their taxes.

Gov Walker is great; I wish we had that kind of leadership in Washington DC.

Gov. Walker may win the battle, but will lose the war.

Pensions in Wisconsin are solvent. The deficits are due to tax cuts that backfired, including incentives to attract business. The attack on collective bargaining does nothing to balance the budget.

No, we do NOT need more leaders like Walker. He is not being honest about what caused the deficit. He is not representing all his constituents. He is staying the course even though members of his own Party have suggested compromises.

Other governors will not follow his lead, even many Republican governors. They are smart enough to know union-busting will only make it more difficult to get other things done during the rest of their term.

Anyone who has a good paying job in this counrty owes a tip of the hat to unions. Whether you have been represented by a union or not YOU have benefited from them. When unions got a raise or a benefit so did most non union workers. In fact the non union worker often got more. If you disagree with this statement you hvae your head in the sand and if unions are broken and you are young enough, you will discover how valuable unions have been in building the middle class. When you, your children and grand children live in poverty because no one has bargaining rights you will wish unions had stayed around. without unions there WILL be only rich and poor. No middle class.

The teachers there get $48k? I wish we got that here. We get $30k gross. Which amounts to $21k net.

No, but recall efforts have already started against the Democrat Senators who refuse to honor our form of government, who pick the ball and go home. Walker campaigned on much of this and was elected to carry out his promises. I know it's shocking for a politician to actually try to do what he campaigned on, but elections do have consequences- as was often stated a few years ago.

The unions and their puppets would have you believe that they are for the middle class. Never mind the fact that most of the middle class are paying the exorbitant salaries and benefits that far exceed their own and especially in this economy they can ill afford to do so. That is why most states are headed for bankruptcies and barebone services are being cut.

It is not just the middle class that are suffering from the greed of the unions and their bought and paid for political puppets. Yes even the poor are suffering from the greed. One prime example occurred six months ago when the head Union Puppet, our POTUS, cut their foodstamps to fund a raise for the teachers union. Many more of their support programs are being cut across the nation.

The unions are destroying our governments just like they have bankrupted most private businesses . It's not about the middle class. It's all about them at the expense of the middle class and the poor!

I still believe that the union stripping is just the window dressing of this sale! The oft overlooked provision to be able to sell off the state power plants is the real deal. This man is a Koch Bros Bitch and he knows it. The only reason why he is fighting so hard is for the pretty sparklies he will get from the Bros when he flips the state over to them!

It looks to me like his whole justification is based on his prior experience w/state w/government, where unions made his job more difficult.

Sounds like a vendetta to me, doesn't even rise to the level of sticking w/a political ideology. The guy doesn't like that he has to work w/folks who won't go with his every whim and holds a grudge.

Better get used to it, fella or get out of politics and the public sector. We live in a democracy, like it or not you will always have to come to a middle ground with people who don't all agree with you.

Walker won't back down until, of course, David Koch tells him to.

"Gov. Walker may win the battle, but will lose the war."

Again it is Democrats that use violent terminology when they describe political differences. And it is Democrats that want to limit freedom of speech anytime someone says anything that they disagree with. Democrats can not handle it when they don't get their way. The end doesn't justify the means; it isn't about them, it is about the Country.

it's a common phrase, get used to it. I don't see a cross-hair on Walker's head like there was on Giffords, jackass.

If this is so important to balancing the budget, Why Then is Gov. Walker only going after the teachers union and not the firefighters and policemens union.Oh, I forgot . The police and firefighters unions contributed to his campaign, The teachers union did not.

Then there is the issue of a surplus That was given away to create a deficit

Why are folks so blind to how things work? First. READ THE ARTICLE. Unions in this state (I live in Wisconsin) have continued to "Bargain" for Cadillac benefits even when the state is trying to reduce them. That shows the exact problem.

If the bill is not passed. In 4 of 8 years when Walker is not Governor, the unions will just ask for it all back again. State workers in Wisconsin have"Binding Arbitration" that means if an agreement cannot be obtained, each side presents its case to an arbitrator. The arbitrator typically will go with what other counties/departments have agreed to.

Now lets look at what that really means. Sheriff's union wants first dollar health care (pays for everything). County says no. Goes to binding arbitration. Arbitrator says two other counties have first dollar health care, so the arbitrator agrees with the union and the county has to pay for it.

This is not fair bargaining. Not like private unions. The county cannot Close, they cannot Move and they cannot raise the price of their goods (they don't make any).

1) If Wisconsin's state pension funds are fully-funded, how will elimination of collective bargaining save the state any money?

2) If Wisconsin's civil servants are not allowed to strike, how will elimination of collective bargaining take anything away from them?

3) If it is unions that are the issue, why are unions that are traditionally GOP supporters (police and firefighters) allowed to keep their collective bargaining and teachers, who are traditionally Democratic supporters, should have theirs removed.

4) Why is TIAA-CREF being specifically targeted? And why was life insurance from TIAA-CREF being touted as union-owned health care insurance? I understand that TIAA-CREF is an affinity group that is only available to medical and educational professionals, but it is one of the most respected non-profit financial institutions in the country. To call it "union-owned" and demonize it is a huge stretch.

5) Why is the American Federation of Teachers being specifically targeted. The AFT is more like the American Medical Association than the United Auto Workers. If you go to any of their member literature or websites, you will see that their issues are about education, not about pay and benefits. They are on the opposite of many issues from the GOP, but for educational, not political reasons. Their website is www.AFT.org go look for yourselves.

6) Everyone should go and listen to the entire recording of Walker talking to a person that he thought was Scott Koch, one of his big financial contributors and one of the largest funders of the Tea Party "movement."

Too much of what this guy is saying simply does not add up. Cicero used to stand up in the Roman Senate before any res or acta was voted on and ask, "Cui bono?" Who benefits? One really has to ask if the Wisconsin taxpayers actually benefit, or does the GOP benefit by union-busting of unions that have traditionally been pro-Democratic candidates?

I live in Alabama and the GOP made no bones about it when they passed a law that made it a felony to withhold union and professional society dues (specifically including the AFT and NEA) from teachers' paychecks. When asked why they passed such a law, the Speaker of the Senate said, "Because we can."

The greatest fear of the Founding Fathers was that this country would become a democracy instead of a republic. They had seen in Europe and the colonies here that a democracy will ALWAYS use the power of the majority (or a coalition masquerading as a majority) to strip rights and privileges from minorities and consolidate their own political power. The Founding Fathers always saw direct election of public leaders as the greatest vulnerability of our system and the idea of corporate dominance as the next worst threat.

Catch: No one really understands how unions work, if they did they wouldn't be so quick to defend them. Unions create a fiefdom where memembership is mandatory (or paying dues to the unions) teachers pay $1,100. to the union and the union in turn funds its leaders who in turn give money to democratic pacs. It would be interesting to find out how many wisconsin teachers don't want to pay into a union but that's never discussed.

cdahl, Walker already won the battle of the budget, since unions have agreed to the necessary cuts. Walker is not content to have won the battle of the budget, he's pushing for total victory in the war against unions and the rights of workers to organize. Whether or not you agree that public employees should have the right to unionize, honesty demands that you at least admit that this is the crux of the current standoff.

Democracy this....democracy that....read my lips liberals:

WE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE A DEMOCRACY!!!

Anyone who has EVER studied american history knows we started as a constitutional republic. In fact, when Benjamin Franklin came out of the constitutional congress, he said "We have a republic....if we can keep it". We did not.

"Republics decline into democracies which degenerate into despotism". Aristotle

I am ready to rebel against the despotism of the exptremists at BOTH ends of the political scale - the socialist democrats and the oligarchy of republicans.

Fracking: Great post. I would also ask for the billions of dollars other countries have owed the United States since WWII.

I agree unions have gone too far in some areas, but they are the only voice for middle class America. In my small town a teacher needs to work only 5 years and then will receive a $10,000.00 bonus if their job is eliminated. No one ever gave me that kind of cash, ever. I wholeheartedly stand with the unions and I believe Walker is in bed with the "nasty things" called the Koch brothers. That is not a democracy it is a monarchy and hypocrisy! If the Koch brothers manage to abolish the unions, I pray one day the Koch brothers live to see what it is like to be hungry and poor. The Koch brothers are lazy bums, who inherited, the billions they have from daddy. They despise unions because, they do not want any one, to be able to join the same country club, where they graze.

Quite frankly, when I heard Walker's drool dropping on the phone, when he thought he was talking to David Koch, I wanted to vomit.

I would say he would be less popular now, that he is taking something away. Polticians are judged by how much of our borrowed money they "give" back to us. When they don't take it in the first place, our feeble minds can't comprehend. Hence, we whine and complain: "Give us more of our own borrowed money!"

Enjoy the debt, folks, cause it ain't going anywhere but up.

Hey Bill Crane

Walker won't back down until, of course, David Koch tells him to.

I guess you lefties won't either until George Soros, Richard Trumpka, and Andy Stern tell you to also.

Get a grip! Your hate is eating you alive.

Really, they have only the "racist, Kock bros, and all Bush's fault" arguments fed to them by the likes of Madcow and Matthews, and it's gotten down right pathetic. Walker is a leader and not going to be bullied by the SEIU. They are nothing more than a legal mafia, in it for the money the sheeple keep handing them. Trumpka is desperate, his empire is falling.

Gray Davis was recalled for less.

Regardless if the governor gets his way, there will still be massive layoffs. The only difference is nurses, teachers, and other workers with 20 or 30 years senority would be laid off and lose their retirement.... that is if the governor gets his way.

Gov. Walker defends 'GOP budget repair bill'

It really is about placing severe restrictions and limits on the American middle class and erasing collective bargaining from our memory bank!

Pretty low tactic if I say so!!

Strength, courage, and power to the people---to my sisters and brothers in WI and throughout the nation!

The Union has attempted to go middle ground with this, but Walker doesn't give a crap. In that leaked phone call, he talked about how his supporters planned to make the protesters look like they are bad people by planting trouble-makers in them. He wants this damn thing passed just so he can dissolve any barganing rights that the Union has, period.

Plus, this entire thing will have almost no impact on the goddamn budget. something like 5 million dollars over the next 10 years. How is that going to help his state, it's budget woes, or it's constituents? Simple answer is that it won't. I don't care who you are or what you support, but our teachers in this nation should be payed more. They teach our children, knowing that they could have done another career path and earned tens of thousands more than they do now, just so OUR KIDS can have a BETTER LIFE and MORE CHANCES THAN THEY HAVE. I salute them as a sophomore from Minnesota.

Plus, teachers are the lowest paid college graduates in the entire nation, yet Walker believes they need to loose more money & their barganing rights?

Bull@!$%#.

Just curious if MY comment will get collapsed since I am not all that against Walker and his actions. Unions are not popular down south. We have our reasons. While I am not totally anti-union I am far from being pro-Union either.

Unions had their time, their place and were clearly needed in the past. The problem is theyhave become TOO powerful and corruption has taken over the higher levels...like many things political. (Think of it like the tail wagging the dog and telling the dog what to do, where to go and how much it will sit, drink, hike their leg, sleep.)

With the economy being in such a shambles and getting worse budgets need cut at ALL levels. Which means people / Unions need to make concessions for the good of ALL not just their Union members. No one likes tightening their belts but we HAVE to do something. You can not keep doing what you want, take out more and more without giving up something. You cannot keep putting back at less and less into the system but demanding more or that things remain status quo ante.

I do not agree with being cheap-as$es and shutting down the retiree's pensions. But by simply adjusting new hires benefits and retirement the problem will right its self of the course of time. It would help if the CEOs of big companies, Union Bosses and the likes, INCLUDING our elected Representatives, took a pay cut.

Something is seriously wrong when the average worker makes around 300% less then the CEO of their company. The OUTRAGEOUS compensation packages , paying for Golden parachutes and perks like Limo, private jets, stock options, hair dressers, etc) all need to end. I mean who really is worth making multi-millions a year for producing nothing but hot air, bluff and self-serving actions? If CEOs made a human size wage and became "Ceos" not CEOs. The money saved by companies would go a long ways to pay for the benefits the Unions have come to expect and demand. Why don't people protest that? CEO and Board Members wages and compensations are something THEY can do more about.

The Dems who played hide and seek in another State need to be fined, have their pay docked. They are paid to do a job but didn't preform up to expectations. In the private sector, they would have been given a pink slip.

States and cities need to stop giving all the freebies to the illegals. (They are HUGE drain on State and City budgets but that's another topic)

Oh, I get it! You want to take every page and add the constitution to it, or something by 'Carl Marx!' I have 2 questions.

#1: Who the hell is Carl Marx? I've never heard of him! You couldn't be talking about Karl Marx, the man who wrote about the ideology of Communism, could you?

#2: An Ultra-Conservative Patriot like yourself wouldn't DARE to even look at something like that, (for fear of being brainwashed into a 1950's Russkie, or something), much less mention his name, or his works, in the same threat as the Constitution of the United States? That's blasphemy.

Oh yeah, I love the way you phrased it, making it sound like you are holding Newsvine hostage. Are you asking to be mocked, or are you serious? I ask, because I truly can't tell.

Haha even though what you said is 100% accurate I am working towards a dual major in history and education so that I can go become a teacher. I'll be poor but someone has to try and educate our nations children.

I do find it ironic that Wisconsin's Democrat legislators ran away from a state because a governor was trying to reduce spending...and now are hiding away in hotel broom closets inside a state where a governor has recently and heavily increased taxes.

And I'll bet you are opposed to filibusters when liberals do it. A not so subtle form of virtual union busting and the myway or the highway stance you folks always take.

What's the deal with you guys, harsh potty training? Try this approach: Take your ball and bat and go home (show them) or hold your breath till you turn blue.

There was a psych study done that explains it all.

Or if this does'nt show up google "study shows conservatives are more fearful."

So in addition to the potty training, also scared of spiders, snakes, liberals, socialists, people of color, gays and women. Oh and now unions. About wraps it up I guess.

Besides if they don't already have it newsvine will just limit how much you can post.

To me one of the obvious questions that isn't being asked is 'What does Gov. Walker have to lose by sitting down with union reps and hearing what they have to offer?'

If they have a reasonable offer then he comes out looking 'reasonable' for hearing what they have to say, if they don't have a reasonable offer then he comes across as being perfectly justified in legislating what is reasonable and necessary for controlling the state's budget.

Of course at this point he has stubbornly painted himself into a corner and left himself no escape fro his own heavy handedness.

America NEEDS political leaders like the governor. Tough decisions need to be made in America. Because a few spoiled government employees throw a tantrum, and the unscrupulous press supports them, does not make this miniority in the right!

Political Corruption has bankrupted America, and that includes Obama and his false promises. How is "change" working out?

If America thinks this is a "recovery", as Obama and his administration state, America is in a sorry state - record foreclosures, banks closing, record debt, unfair trade agreements, rising prices, and a corrupt government!

We are living the collapse of America! and if you don't agree with MSNBC, the thread on this forum gets collapsed - what a joke!

May 1933 Adolf Hitler abolishes unions.

History has a way of repeating itself.

Good for you Gov! Hold the line. If they want to go back to their job, they can come to work at the Senate.

He is doing what needs to be done!! The left wingers don't have the guts to do what needs to be done. They want to let our kids pay for it!!!

Witchking.."May 1933 Adolf Hitler abolishes unions."

Again with playing the HITLER CARD" ??

The facts are;

"Certain nominally independent organizations had their own legal representation and own property, but were supported by the Nazi Party. Many of these associated organizations were labor unions of various professions. Some were older organizations that were nazified according to the Gleichschaltung policy after the 1933 takeover:

Labor unions were supported by the NAZI's

But More Importantly...Everyone had to join the ....wait for it....

The National Socialist German Workers' Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (help·info), abbreviated NSDAP), commonly known in English as the Nazi Party (from the German Nazi, abbreviated from the pronunciation of Nationalsozialist^[5]), was a political party in Germany between 1919 and 1945. It was known as the German Workers' Party (DAP) prior to a change of name in 1920."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_German_Workers_Party

National Socialist WORKERS Party in conjuction with Labor Unions ??

I say...No more history repeating itself....

Good for Scott Walker, I am so proud of a politician that does what he said he would do. The Democrats are acting like children that didn't get their way.

It well known that the unions are part of the bargaining problem and that obama relies on the heavily for campaign money. No person should be forced to pay union fees if they don't want to be in the union.

I hope that the Republican Congress and Senate remain as adamant as Scott Walker. America is very spoiled, "WE WANT IT ALL AND WE WANT IT NOW" needs to change to "do it when we can afford it. Hang tough Washington and Wisconsin, it may be that YOU have to do some cutting personally too your own paycheck and benefits. We are counting on you.

Diogenes--08

First off Walker never said he would break collective bargaining during his campaign. Secondly, by your logic you would be proud of President Obama for campaiging on Health care reform and delivering on hit campaign promise.

The Republicans expect their funding via corporations. When I buy products or work for a corporation, I have no say were my money goes in regards to the political contributions they make. This is now even worse since they do not have to disclose; thanks to the "Non-Political" Supreme Court" rulings.

You just backed yourself into your own corner with your flawed logic.

To all who think that we need so much military large enough to fight the whole world I would point out that when anyone has a huge military they always find a place to invade and use their military to dominate.

This breeds resisence and insures the decline of that country.

see Soviet Union ,Roman empire the Ming dynasty and all others who set out for world domanation

Futyler Tolosa....This was inserted this morning in one of yesterdays Vine's with tremendous amount of collapsed Comments...It comes from a Newsvine "Guide". On that Vine....comments that had no violations were restored, but as you can well imagine....that takes an awful lot of work on Newsvine's part. But I agree with you....No Violation---Don't Collapse

______________________________________________________________

Viki Babbles Gonia

Please do not report comments that are not specifically violations of the Newsvine Code of Honor or User Agreement.

Users who are found to have been reporting comments inappropriately will lost their reporting privileges.

Do not report a comment just because you disagree with what that user is saying. That's a poor way to conduct a discussion.

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• !

#1.24 - Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:40 AM EST

bopdaddytoo,

... and what discussion are YOU part of... Let's try to stay on topic!

"The Wisconsin state Democrats have turned tail and run. How can the expect to be re-elected when they've abrogated their duty to participate in a Democratic process for which they are paid? Are they thinking they are members of the Iraqi parliament?"

Federal Republicans did the same thing in the 1980s. . . yet some of them didn't have any problems getting re-elected.

The Flaming Tricycle (Post 3.4) --

"it's budget woes, or it's constituents"

The word is "its" (belonging to it), not it's (it is).

"they need to loose more money & their barganing rights"

The word is "lose" (to suffer deprivation of), not "loose" (not rigidly fastened or securely attached).

Before everyone jumps on me for being petty or a member of the Grammar Police, I'd like to point out that --

as a sophomore from Minnesota

Flaming Tricycle is a good example of why good teachers in all states deserve to be well-paid. They are worth their weight in gold to the literacy of our country. Anyone reading the posts here on the 'Vine or anywhere else can see that.

(Comment will be continued when computer allows.)

Having made my point in Post 3.28 --

I do believe the excessive benefits need to be addressed. However, it is not part of the issue of the fiscal status of the state of Wisconsin. It is a political issue, one of legitimate differences of opinion between parties. As such, it shoud not be included in the "budget fix bill". Let's take the concessions for the time being, keep the state functioning and then take up the issue of how to incorporate control of negotiating rights into a fiscally responsible plan for the future of Wisconsin. I feel this would be acceptable to a majority of taxpayers and would get us out of the current no-win, non-productive standoff.

Please reevaluate your comments. It is the fault of the workers that the system is broken and yes it is partially the fault of the politicians that have been letting them get away with it.
Union membership in the country is on the decline and it needs to decline more!

It is a surefire way for him and his party to lose a great deal of support for the next few years. Great political strategy, yep!

This is the brilliant and eloquent distillation of the turmoil in Wisconsin that I have yet read...and I have read A LOT. SantOsh54305 is clearly from Wisconsin (and I suspect from my town of birth) and "gets" this issue. Thank you.

I agree why the middle class gets screwed all the time. When some middle class pp have to work 2 jobs just to pay bills and suport a family. If they want the economy to get better, stop taking away money from middle class pp who work hard.

"Union membership in the country is on the decline and needs to decline more"

Yep sure has been. Along with your benefits and pay.

Socialism only enhances poverty. Look at all the socialist countries. Our problems begin in the home with todays liberal upbringing of our children whom are taught disrespect and dishonesty. Eighth graders 100 years ago were more educated than many of todays college grads. Until we get back to the basics in education we will continue on a downhill road. Parents; make little Johnny get outside and do something beside pecking on a computer for hours on end.

Bill in Houston. No, it is not actually the workers. The trouble actually started 30 years ago when Reagan started decreasing the tax base, and started running deficit budgets to hide the real costs of the decrease in taxation rather than spending cuts. What decrease? Well unfortunately the decrease has overwhelmingly benefited the top 1% whose tax rate has decreased the most over the past 30 years, while their incomes have increased at 10 times the rate annually of the average worker.

Many right wingers spout that the 1% pay around 40% of all taxes, yet if you check another number from the IRS...gross income...this bracket makes over 67% of the annual gross income of the United states.

Unfortunately not making budgets cuts to offset the tax cuts that have mostly gone to the top 1% has been a popular strategy by governments (both dem and republican) because the cost has been deferred ...until we have gotten to this point.

I know you will bring up the recent deficit spending. In such a case, I would argue that recent spending was necessary and largely successful. When you have 2/3rds of the puzzle (consumers and corperations) are feeding a vicious cycle of not spending, the governement has to be the one to help put the breaks on that cycle by spending. Its a simple explanation, but much more appropriate than people that use microeconomics to argue against the government which is dealing with macroeconomics...that is to say, the U.S. is not a household, and should not be run like a household.

You are right, that's one of the reasons companies are hiring part timers instead of full time employees, pay only minimum wage, make employees do the work that two people used to do, force them to work overtime without pay, and remind them that if they don't like the working conditions there are plenty of unemployed people ready to take their place.

My management experience included participation in collective bargaining agreement negotiations and if anyone thinks Union members enjoy lavish benefits and earn huge salaries they are dreaming. I would not have traded my salary and benefits for four times what the highest union member in my organization had.

The irony of these debates is that nobody questions what inept CEOs and board members earn. I wonder why? The average CEO makes in one week what a union member earns in one year and yet, our focus is only on the little guy. I believe unions are ineffective and unnecessary, but if we want to look for injustices there are plenty of those if you just take a glimpse at the guys at the top.

A lucid account of the issues. We need some reasoned thinking here, rather than the usual knee-jerk insistence that the public employee sector is responsible for the budget crisis. That is a LIE and a subterfuge proffered by the real miscreants, the Republican party, who have gutted our country with deregulation. But let's DO reverse the insanity and get our imperial asses out of Afghanistan, and soon, Iraq; let's DO actually regulate and indict the sociopathic fraudsters that bankrupted our financial system. Obama is a whimp, articulate but inexperienced. When Walker mocked him to faux Koch, saying Obama should concentrate on his OWN (i.e., Bush's) deficit, more people should have pointed out that Wisconsin IS still part of the U.S. and thus he is STILL our president, too. He has an obligation to involve himself in state politics. We will obviously lose this battle here in Wisconsin to our tyrant king, but we are awake now, and we are going to one day soon have revenge. Study the history of his ineffectiveness in Milwaukee county, using the same tactics as he's now trying on the state. We are simply a pawn in his march to higher office, and so ideology reigns supreme.

Santoshk - very well stated. I would only add the (obvious) fact that by reducing the income of the middle and lower classes, the tax base has further eroded. When added to the tax breaks given to the very wealthy, and the resistance to cover those breaks by reduced spending, the deficit continues to grow. The frustrating this is that the press, and (noisy, well paid talking heads) very rarely blame the deficit problem on those tax breaks given to the wealthy.

When will you be running for office? You have my vote!

Eric and "we the corporations" - We conservatives do not need anyone to talk for us. I also do not need to wait until Monday to respond to your "poll." I went to your link. It expressly states that this "poll" was conducted by, "Greenberg Quinlan Rosner, a respected Democratic polling firm." There you go. 'Nuff said. What makes you think that a democrat ran poll deserves any credibility whatsoever? After all, if I quoted a Fox poll to you, would you agree that it was "fair and balanced"? I seriously doubt it. You would tear it apart as biased. So, if you want to quote stats to me, don't quote me ones from entities that are in the bed with your biased ideology. Give me something believable and trustworthy. By the way, look at local news and you will clearly see that Walker is not "on the outs" like you want to believe in your fantasy world. Governments are broke. The tax-payer gravy train must end for them.

When the Unions have full control of the people and the government and they have taken full advantage of the system by burdening the people of the State with the highest tax in the state, then it is time to take back your government and take a part the Union thugs that have been in control for far too long.

The Unions will not let go of power that easy, so in this case "might makes right" because they are fighting the governor and the people that voted for this change. Their is no Vendetta here just time to get rid of the Unions that have the Democrats in their pockets for far too long. Our country face this during the American Revolution, the British was not giving up power that easy and the Americans had to fight back, this again is where "Might makes Right"!

Just as conservatives conveniently forget history (or try to rewrite it) as they are doing now -- the Town Squalls and head stomping they instigated during the health reform debate, the filibusters, block and holds when Republicans were the minority in congress -- they will always play the victim. The Dems could give the GOP a lot more of their own medicine, but won't even though they deserve it.

readman -- Health care has been debated for decades, and the HCR bill was debated for a summer before being passed with a filibuster-proof super majority (instead of reconciliation the way Bush's tax cuts were passed). Gov. Walker wanted this bill signed and on his desk in only ONE WEEK. You and your fellow conservatives are the ones who are not well informed. Chris Matthews is not my favorite, but anything is better than FOX.

Hey santos whatever i suppose the minority at the time obama care was being slammed thru felt the same way! There is the way the democrats feel the way they should be treated and the way everybody else should be treated! Its amazing in the difference in the two! It is amazing when the shoe is on the other fooT

Bill- sorry you were collapsed by small minded people not capable of real debate.

You were right on the first count- it IS the Leadership of the unions that caused the problem. It is the unions that buy, I mean "elect" politicians- it would be in the politicians best interest to obey the will of the union and acquiesce to the will of the unions and give them what they want, if only for professional survival. Both caused the problem- but neither like the solution.

Unions were NEVER meant to be a political force- they were instilled and designed to be a representative body for workers rights to the EMPLOYER. They has lost their own vision.

Santoshk, so why does the minority think it's okay to club the majority over the head? Logic would dictate that's also not wise.

I think Santos post was excellent. This is not "Obamacare" (a program to give health care to all in this country) It is a dictatorial stance affiliated with large corporations to take down the middle class. Unions work for some, maybe not for others. So to take you back to the teaparty crowds with the Obama Hitler signs, let me put it in perspective: Obama = Hitler (Obama wanting all citizens to have the access to health insurance, surely what Hitler wanted) to Governor Walker = Hitler (Hitler went after the unions first). Now, really can you see it plain as day? When you have a group of teachers, how do you think they get raises? By doing what the corporations do? Making you sleep with the boss? No. Without a union you go to your boss and ask for a raise. If they like you, you get it, if not you don't. Unions even the playing field. Teachers don't sell products like corporate America. Unions prohibit behavior tht pits one teacher against another for the money in the budget. It's just that. They don't save jobs, they don't get bad teachers off the hook. Really, you just have no idea.

I would much rather have unions contribute to elections , unions that represent regular middle class working people, than corporate CEO"s and who knows who else from multinational corps that can now give UNLIMITED funds thanks to Citizens's United (Koch sponsored case BTW).

Demcrats are on the side of the PEOPLE. Republicans are on the side of their corporate benefactors. How can that be disputed?

@Freedom205

I'm pretty sure your quoting Rush right now- its like a bad habit, you don't even know your doing it!!!!

Sanotosh: Your post is well written and informative. I do not understand why the Tea Party or any other middle class group is so adamant about abolishing union bargaining. First Americans who belong to a union, is minimal. State employees make up the greatest per cent of unionized workers. I also believe when Walker and the other Republican bullies, finish demolishing the unions, they will start, increasing taxes on Social Security and Medicare, while decreasing benefits. This is a war of the class. As for Edward, "Obamacare should be "Medicare" for all. Tell me Edward, do you believe, under privileged children, should NOT have health care? Do you believe people, who have pre-existing illnesses, should be denied health care? Do you believe people, who cannot find a full-time job, but work 2 or 3 part-time jobs, should be, denied health care? They pay as much in taxes, as a full time worker but, they do not reap, any of their taxes, in health care. I cannot comprehend, how anyone, who calls themselves an "American" can watch, while their fellow Americans, are suffering. We are the nation, who provides aid to earthquake and tsunami victims. We are Americans. Why would you begrudge another American the same rights, the wealthy "have," but did not earn. Why should a CEO receive a yearly bonus, that amounts to more than, I have made in my life time, as a nurse? Over forty years of nursing! Why are movie stars and athletes be paid so much, while people who actually work, until their 65, will never see that kind of money. And to top it off, these elitists, are given extra special treatment and luxurious free gifts, that most of us, would never ever, consider buying because we cannot afford them? You see Edward, some of us do our jobs because, we care about others. Then there are those, who want us to do our jobs because, it benefits them and they do not merit their pay. They believe the are entitled. And what you seem to be arguing about, are entitlements for the rich but not for the poor. Typical Republican logic. It is all what is in it for you. I hope you can take your money with you.

The thing I don't understand on the whole tax thing is how everyone continuously keeps arguing about what the real effective tax rate is for the poor vs. the rich, how SS, Medicare, State and local taxes are not counted, even among those who are saying the rich don't pay their fair share.

To me, it matters not what the label is, money taken from my pay or added to the cost of my purchases for gas or stuff at the hardware store to fund government is a tax. When I don't have to pay a portion to the government because I am investing it is avoiding a tax.

The poor and middle class (if there are any of those folks left) spend a far greater percentage of their incomes just getting by, and are taxed for most of these purchase. They pay a standard percentage of their income for FICA and Medicaid. These taxes stop at a certain income, and those who make more have a lot more discretionary income not needed for subsistence that can be invested, avoiding taxes. Add all of this stuff up, all are very heavily skewed against those w/lower incomes paying a much higher percentage of their income than the rich. Then that portion that everyone acknowledges is federal tax comes in, with all it's smoke and mirrors.

I have lived poor and have lived much better off. When I was poor, taxes were simple. The government had a formula for how much to witthold, at the end of the year I was always happy I got a little of that back using standard deductions. When I was better off, it all became a game. Everything I did beyond the basics of necessary spending was geared to getting money put into the tax-exempt category. Everyone I knew played the game--- you don't believe how important it is, just read MSN Money for a few days. It is amazing how with a little planning, a huge portion of your annual income can suddenly vanish into investments, so that six figure or higher income on tax day suddenly becomes so tiny..... yet you still have all that money just making more for you for your retirement or rainy day.

I am all for everyone paying their fair share, rich or poor. We all get the benefits. I am sick and tired of greedy, soulless SOB's continuously faulting the poor for all the handouts they are given, then witha lot more tools (lawyers and laws), without a hint of guilt doing all they can to hide income and avoid paying.

Because union bargaining is about how much everyone can give you and nothing of what you'll give back. Because unions want the"premium" but don't want to be held accountable for their failures!

The employee that commits a crime on a military installation, by providing a minor with alcohol - loses his job and then gets reinstated because even though the event occurred on a military installation, at the place of work, with an under-aged employee, it occurred after "normal working hours."

This employee denied involvement every step of the way which was total B.S. because myself and another co-worker witnessed the event! In fact, a DOD civil servant provided a witness statement as well. Anyhow, the Union stepped in, got this employee his job back - oh yeah and I forgot to tell you, his cousin who worked in the same office - as a locksmith, fought for his reinstatement every step of the way. It didn't hurt that both individuals we close friends to a supervisor (one that was involved with Union business - that shouldn't have been involved) help to get this individual reinstated! oh yeah - this also comes on the heals of an admission by another employee who was involved. Guilt and complicity was established. So I guess my point is this, Unions have too much power - and little accountability. Union power needs to be regulated - just like the governments power is regulated - too an extent!

The layoffs will reflect badly on our governor. Walker is losing supporters faster than Mubarack. Another week of this and his wife (and the Koch brothers of course) will be the only ones behind him.

It seems like we have everything backwards. Cut the pay and benefits of the working class. No one benefits from this, it barely makes a dent in the deficit, but we need to bring others down. Since we do not have these benefits, why should they? We just have to pull them down to our level and we will be happy.

While on the other hand, give the tax breaks to the wealthy. They need it. They have had these breaks for the past 10 years and we have lost more jobs than ever. But keep on giving them the breaks. Wisconsin gets very cold in the winter and these rich companies need more homes in a warmer climate.

I know one company that shipped jobs overseas, gave bonuses to their VPs, Directors and up when they received the tax cuts. The President of the company called it a double-break. They saved on taxes and also saved by sending jobs overseas.

So we continue to take from the middle class and the poor and give to the rich, so they can fly us to Cali for a meal.

People like to ask why do you hate the rich. My question is why do you hate poor working class people.

They claimed the President wanted to redistribute wealth. Now look who is doing it, taking from the poor and distributing to the rich.

Why isn't anyone asking where is all of the money that goes to public schools. You are fooling yourselves if you think that school districts are any different than corporations. The heads of the school districts go on lavish outings, have cars, perks, etc, just like corporations - only difference is they are using our tax dollars. The teachers, unions, politicians and even voters have allowed the school districts to spend like drunken sailors, leaving very little for the teachers. If they teachers want more, then they, along with the unions and voters, need to demand the districts cut the foolish spending.

readman-2887713

You are wrong on so many points it is laughable.

1. Where did you ever get the 65% number? It was high against the bill only during the time the Right Wingers were creating bold face "Pants on Fire" lies about the plan.

2. Walker never during his campaign said he was going to strip collective bargaining rights

Nice try at revisionism. Kind of reminds me of Mayor Giuliani saying there never was a terrorist attach during Bush's administration or McCain saying I never said I was a Maverick. LOL

Take that back- I was reponding specifically to the comment regarding a majority thrusting their will on the minority EXACTLY LIKE THE DEMOCRATS DID WTH OBAMACARE. That is fact so get off you high horse assuming you know my thoughts. I stated a fact that you cannot dispute.

I agree that atheletes and stars are over paid. I don't think anyone is worth that amount of money, CEO's included. I agree that health care should not be withheld from anyone. As a matter of fact I think a single payer system is the only way healthcare costs can be controlled.

Regarding this anti-corporation/business mentality every seems to have, ask yourself were your retirement money is invested. You want corporations to make money, in fact you are banking on it and so is our government. Also remember the government does not create a single self-sustaining job. It is totally funded by taking money from others.

I see no point in public sector unions. I totally support the right of workers in the private sector to unionize.

Now I've given you a little insight into my views. Sit on your high horse and judge me now that you've been given some information as to my views. I could sit here and say maybe your jealous of others lives because all you could ever do in 40 years is be a mediocre nurse. I don't know that you were mediocre but I too can make assuptions.

Take that back - By the way. I'm a moderate independent who is fiscally conservative.

Amazing how all it takes is to state facts and the opposition feels it necessary to "collapse" you view. Is that similar to fleeing the state to prevent a vote? Cowards!

Isn't it funny how some take their paintbrush and use it to paint the other side with their paint? Liberal/dem/socialists have overtaken our schools, undermined the authority of parents, created misery for children, dictated how and what we were allowed to say or think, taxed and taxed and taxed us to death and asked for more taxes, because they weren't the ones paying it, blamed anyone who had the backbone to start a business and provide jobs for anything that was wrong in their lives because they wanted to reach into their pockets and steal from them....and all of this took years. Let's not even talk about 40-50 million abortions that undermiined the social security system. And how much have you stolen from taxpayers, against our wishes because you joined forces with dem/liberal/socialists who told you that we ought to be paying for all your privileges?

And you want to know how we would feel?!? Listen to the pot calling the kettle black.

Why should you have a right to FREE Medical care and FREE pensions, and BETTER pay that the private sector...all paid for by us, the taxpayers? When you pay taxes, you're only giving a little back of our own money. You're not taxpayers....you're tax stealers. You create causes that the people are against and instead of putting things to a vote, you go round us. Well, no more.

I fully support our government getting out of the employment business altogether. Let your unions pay for pensions. It's cheaper to hire contract people anyway. And they don't have to be in a union.

It is ludicrous, to at one time to be trying to strip individual citizens of their feeble rights to assemble and associate and negotiate as a unit comparable in size to a government or a corporation, and at the same time claiming that government or that corporation has any and every right that it chooses to assign to itself. Get it, so simple, we the people of the union of the United States are to have no power comparable to the government that we created or to the corporations we allow to function as assembles and associations.

The heart of every citizen must beat to the rhythm that informs us that we are the people of a government of our choosing, a government that we own, if that government then chooses to favor a political party or a corporations over its own citizens, then we the citizens have the ABSOLUTE right to end those bindings, to dissolve that government. If we have to end that corporation, if we have to end that political party, if we have end that state government, if have to make it clear that we will not accept the tyranny of the majority any more that we would accept the tyranny of the majority. We are not a people who will subjugate ourselves to the tyranny of anyone, of any group or any man-made tyranny, we will have laws that are constructed as part of framework of a Constitution and we will extend that Constitution to preserve our dignity. When those that we elect choose not protect that dignity, there is no choice, there no need to delay, and any due process can be shorten to a few days election.

How about this, we can save money by stripping down the current curriculum to just the basics...math, English, sciences and history. School only runs from 8:00am to 12:00pm. Send the kids home with actual home work. Get the parents involved. Next utilize the money that we save on school operating expenditures and teacher salaries and put that money into laptops for every kid in school to check out, so that they can do the rest of their work at home - that's why they call it homework. Have 4 to 5 teachers per subject stay at the school to run a help desk - where they'll be responsible for answering the student questions or providing academic assistance. For students that are just not catching on, those students would be assigned to stay after school from 12:00pm to 3:00pm for some one on one. The rest of the subjects - if there is an interest can be taught at college. Get rid of all extracurricular activities as those cost money as well. If you want to play football - go play for your local recreation department.

For the rest of you - Constitution this Constitution that - shut the hell up! There is no tryanny. Everything we do in our country is based on edicts set forth in the Constitution! It is our failure as a people to understand what our government is doing. It is our failure as a people to be involved in the working of our government. It is our ignorance! We elected all of those in office. Those eleced representatives actually represent our views whether it's the individual or corporation. To truly change government you need to get involved and demand change. As I see it, Republicans and Democrats are complete failures - their political makeup is designed to create debate and finally compromise and finally present and equitable solution to all. It's not the Governments fault i.e. the President's...he represents the people. It's each party's fault...because they are failing to adequately represent you.

Lastly - check your personal problems at the door. I could really care less about religion and I can't stand it's influence on our government. Separation of Church and State...in this case - the federal government! You can't prove to me that God exists and if he does your not the second coming of Jesus! Preach to yourself and your own family...and if what I do offends your thoughts, to bad - be glad that I didn't offend you physically!

Both parents have to work to put food on the table, a roof overhead and clothes to wear. There's no time for "School Work Help" by the parents.

This guy may win the "Battle", but rest assured he won't make it to a 2nd Term.

I feel thae same way about the Democratic Senators that chose to run rather than to do thier job. They all should be recalled.

What are you waiting for Governor get out now.

And therefore the enemy? Really, you want to demonize educators?

You must be a high school dropout or someone unable to qualify for a public job.

Kipper,

Your ignorance is showing. Denying a quorum (running) is the only Legal filibuster in WI. So you oppose the filibuster? I have asked this of sooo many teabaggers, if you admonish the WI senators for filibustering and protecting the rights of the minority, then you should admonish the GOP senators that set a RECORD for filibusters????

Kipper

See how filibustering sucks... maybe you and the GOP can learn from this.

We the corporations,

Let me ask you the question I have posed to several of my friends and co-workers as we have discussed this.

Would it have been OK for the Republican Senators in Washington to have walked out on the simlarly rushed through health care reform bill so as to prevent a vote on it? Knowing, as our Senate Democrats in WI do, that we CANNOT prevent a bill we feel to be a disaster in the making? No one I have talked to has come up with a satisfactory answer. I am interested in hearing yours.

Is that you Mr. Koch?

You can bet there will be a LOT of money coming in to throw this idiot out of office. I'm from another state, and I'd donate to who ever runs against him.

They did. They GnoP in DC tried to filibuster the healthcare bill, they were unsuccessful. If the DC senate had a quorum rule instead of 60 vote filibuster rule, then yes it would have been ok, but they would have to have left the country...how patriotic would that have been.

A filibuster is a filibuster...both ways WI and DC are legal.

So I am really curious- what would happen if the union was a choice in Wisconsin? If teachers (or any other state worker for that matter) had a real choice to either be represented by a union otr choose to go it alone- what would they chose?

From what I am hearing out of the state- and you have to go to MANY different places for that kind of news- it would be in favor of splitting from the unions, by a large margin.

Maybe that's the compromise- make the unions optional, rather than manditory. I got a feeling it's all about control. If the unions believed they were really doing such a bang up job- why not allow a choice? If they are- the members will chose them. If not...

public sector unions don't make sense

1. the govt is a monopoly- there is no competition. if radio shack employees strike, we can go to another store and still get an I Pod. If DMV employees strike, where do i get a drivers license?

2. unions negotiate with those politicians that they put in power; if i placed my boss in his position, wouldn't i get anything i wanted from his business?

3. unions were created to negotiate with greedy owners, who owns the govt? hello Wisconsin! The electorate has spoken

Would it have been OK for the Republican Senators in Washington to have walked out on the simlarly rushed through health care reform bill so as to prevent a vote on it?

I see at least one major difference between WI and the HRC bill situation you're referring to

In the attempt to get more Republicans on board, the HRC proponents in Congress included multiple compromises to address the concerns of the bill's opponents, who voted against it anyway.

Walker has accepted absolutely none that were offered by the unions or the WI Dem senators, even though the compromises offered met his claimed primary concern about the budget. Not only is this an important difference, it shows that balancing the state budget ( which would not have been an issue if tax breaks almost exactly matching the amount of the savings this measure targeting state employees had not been handed out last mointh ) is not the primary goal of Walker and the WI Republicans.

It's not ideology that drives Walker, it's the math

I call BS. If it were just Math, then firefighters and cops would be included. As it is, it is just ideology. If he wants to claim the moral high ground on public unions then he needs to include ALL public unions, not just the ones who didn't endorse him.

Firefighters and police officers require a good deal of training. On the other hand, there are teachers who don't belong to unions, who have found it very difficult to get jobs unless they belong to a union or unless they are liberals.

He needs to target those unions who have exhibited the most demands on our tax dollars, for the least amount of service. We, the taxpayers are paying lifetime pensions and lifetime medical benefits, among other things, and a teacher's right to retire by age 50, which means we, the taxpayer will be paying for your freebies for 20 years or longer, without benefit of your services, and the next teacher will be in their way too....and guess what? Most of those taxpayers you've been malighning and undermining and teaching exactly what we don't want out children taught, and the figures for students who actually graduate are way, way down. So what are we paying for?

I'm well educated as well. I'm working on Masters degree, having already attained both an associate and a Bachelor's...which doesn't make me any smarter than the next guy. You people have a great racket, and we've all been footing the bill for it for a very long time, It's really time for it to be over, but it's a shame we all had to be broke before we realized it, and it's also a shame that we didn't know how little you cared for our children before now.

The message is that we must cut costs as fairly as possible to everyone.

Abolishing bogus bargaining for state employees is a step to honest government for all taxpayers.

If you and Walker really believe that, then why aren't you and he "honest" and "fair" enough to call for the collective bargaining rights of the police and firefighters who endorsed him to be shot down as well, since you're so interested in things being fair for "everyone"?

"Most of those taxpayers you've been malighning and undermining and teaching exactly what we don't want out children taught, and the figures for students who actually graduate are way, way down. So what are we paying for?"

If YOUR kids are not graduating, then that doesn't necessarily mean it is a teacher's fault. As a matter of fact, I'd be willing to wager that the reason the majority of kids don't graduate is due to influences outside of the school itself. A teacher can only notify someone that the kid is missing class, which they do (or at least, they did in my school and my friends have said they take attendance). Here's why I say that: I had a couple of friends who almost didn't graduate, and it was because they didn't go to class. It was due to the tremendous efforts of the teachers and other members of the school staff to keep them and their parents informed (which included actually going to their house to have a talk) that if this behavior didn't stop, they wouldn't graduate. Ultimately, they decided to show up. It was THEIR decision.

Oh, and let me guess what you don't want taught in your schools... real science?

Sorry Jack, your dissertation makes little sense.

Boy this site sucks. Lost posts. Delays. Relocating you when you post. Awful.

TI

his post is not well written but it does make sense to anyone who has sense. You missed the cut.

We’ve seen the protests.

We’ve seen the marches.

We’ve seen how passionate many of our teachers are about this issue.

Well let me tell you this.

I am just as passionate.

Just as passionate that young people should have the chance to go to university, whatever their background or family income.

Just as passionate that they should be able to leave university without an unfair burden of debt.

Just as passionate that our universities should be among the best in the world.

The debate going on today is about the best way of achieving these things.

But if I’m honest, the passion in this debate is drowning out some of the truth.

What about the corruption of union bosses throughout the years and the exorbidant net worth of some of the more notorious of them. Not a one of them had to put their money (or house) on the line as have the very successful business owners to get where they are. Two sides buddy!

Excuse me, but running a race for breast cancer, and marching with women to keep what you see as a privilege to kill your children and help other people kill theirs, is not community service. You act as if you've discovered something. Most Conservative and Republican people I know are people of faith. They visit the sick, they work in soup kitchens and conduct fund raisers for the benefit of the poor, they teach, and they actually get results from the children, which can be shown via how many actually go on to college. We keep food pantries for the hungry, we send money overseas for hungry children....and we did all that before your liberal/dem/socialist agenda began.

We do not believe in taking a man's dignity from him. We believe in helping him to be the best that he can be and helping him get there. We don't label people...which after reading your letter, appears to be a real problem with the liberal/dem/socialists. And we teach not to steal and not to lie.

Oh some do, and we know that. And we also know that God forgives and that person can outlive what they did and go on and do God's work anyway.

"Most Conservative and Republican people I know are people of faith. They visit the sick, they work in soup kitchens and conduct fund raisers for the benefit of the poor, they teach, and they actually get results from the children, which can be shown via how many actually go on to college."

I know plenty of Liberals who do the same things you're espousing, that's great. . . I myself don't consider myself Conservative or Liberal, and I have done plenty and given plenty, even when I was short myself. I drive by "panhandlers" on the road every single day on my way to work, and I do what I can. I also know that many of my Conservative friends do nothing for their community. When I say "nothing," I literally mean, "they do not put one single dollar or minute into anything."

As for the college comment, everyone here is saying that many teachers and their unions are Liberals. If all of those kids are going to college, don't they deserve some credit for it, Conservative or Liberal? What I'm seeing here is strict Liberal bashing, but I'm sure there are Conservatives that are incrediby upset that they're being asked to give up some things.

You mean all those people who were bussed in from all over the country by the Democratic machine that see's its stranglehold on the people slipping away.

We should never back down to Marxism. Keep strong Gov Walker.

no one forced those people to get on a bus. they went because they wanted their voices heard by the elected officials who are now refusing to listen. plenty of people all over Wisconsin drove themselves. it didn't take a "machine" and many of us aren't "strangleheld" as you suggest. We are able to "think" for ourselves. You certainly are "Of No Importance" if you can't do the same and think that this is strictly political for most of those demonstrators this is "personal".

Bill you live in Houston is that the one in Texas? Well I live in Wisconsin and I was there and everyone around me was from Wisconsin also. Very few people that I saw were from another state. Republican Assemblymen and Senators are trying to find a compromise but Scott Walker isn't listening to them either and they too were elected officials. Walker doesn't want to be our governor he wants to be our dictator.

Brad,

Were you a special needs student and missed the whole history and politics thing. Perhaps you might actually read what real socialists and Marxists think about trade unions. David North is the National Secretary of the Socialist Equality Party in the US and the author of numerous works on Socialism and Marxism. He like all other marxists will tell you that unions inevitably become an enemy of Socialism and are just one side of a Capitalist coin. Walker on the other hand is following the path of all Marxist/Leninist governments in make the state the arbiter of wages and benefits and in centralizing the control of state labor at a single source. From your extensive knowledge of labor history and economics explain how labor unions are in anyway not Capitalist.

JKH

Brad-672138

From wikipedia, this is Marxism:

"Marxism is an economic and socio-political worldview that contains within it a political ideology for how to change and improve society by implementing socialism. Originally developed in the early to mid 19th century by two German émigrés living in Britain, Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, Marxism is based upon a materialist interpretation of history. Taking the idea that social change occurs because of the struggle between different classes within society who are under contradiction one against the other, the Marxist analysis leads to the conclusion that capitalism, the currently dominant form of economic management, leads to the oppression of the proletariat, who not only make up the majority of the world's populace but who also spend their lives working for the benefit of the bourgeoisie, or the wealthy ruling class in society."

To simplify for you, it is basically saying that socialism works and how it should be effectively implemented. What Unions are, is not Marxism, they are away for workers to demand equal and fair pay, proper bennefits for their work, and just a little stability, as a group. Not socialsim or Marxism, so stop listening to Glenn Beck and think for yourself before making illogical comments.

Janey, You are right I am of no importance as just 1 vote, However there are millions of me's out there that are watching what is going on and see many of these people for just what they are, Paid political thugs from the democratic machine, Many being paid and bussed in an attempt to make it look like it is the populace that is supporting them, take a look around, Look and see how they are acting, The American public is disgusted.

Of No Importance - I wasn't "paid" to show up or any of the people that I went with or saw and talked to. I'm not a public worker nor do I belong to a Union. I like "millions" of us are not disgusted when people choose to add their voices to the debate. If you have a problem with people voicing their "own" opinions then you are wasting your time on this or any forum and truly are "Of No Importance".

Of No Importance,

Millions of people who watch Glenn Beck, listen to Rush Limbaugh, and follow Sarah Palin on Twitter....... hmm.... I see a pattern in who's rhetoric is you follow(more like worship).

Also, I'd like you to go up to one of these "political thugs" and call them thugs and see if it makes you feel like a decent human being. Some place where you can't hide behind your computer.

you must have missed that compromise offer that the Governor said no to. All or nothing he says. And, I may be wrong about this, but I believe the Wisconsin Governor in question is NOT a democrat or a union member.

Marxism is the death of Fascism. When it first came out, what was the condition of capitalist societies? You fool yourself if you think you have inclusion in the scheme.

Bill in Houston - yes, people spoke during the election, just as people are speaking to their elected representative now. In fact, this manner of communication is more passionate and valid that someone checking a ballot.

This is the right to free speech as has always been intended - we are not limited to voicing concerns and opinions only during election periods. If more people would engage in the direction of this country (as we are seeing now) our country would see great improvements in all aspects of honorable policymaking, and the extreme polarization created by party-politics would be very much diminished. The more who speak and particpate, the better we all will be. The fewer that speak, leave decisions up to special interests and money which will always result in a degredation of a country's strength and unity.

Big Rick

Degreed union man here. 3.7 GPA here. No longer in the union (private)but fully support the people of this country in the quest for economic equity. You swallow whole the lie that the common man (and yes unions ) are the problem cause. You need look no farther than greed trying to take a bigger cut through economic manipulation and exploitation. BTW I believe that public unions need to be held to different standards than private unions.

What is the Fortune 500 but a union of businessmen? Business needs to be held to SOME standard, but they buy the law so why doesn't it happen? Oh yes it's those little guys getting in the way with their needs unmet.

Thanks for your balanced a reasoned comment. I think most of the country would agree with you.

Read anything by Ayne Rand. Communism/socialism does not work. It only works as long as the money holds out. When all of the younger workers are not willing to support the older ones, it no longer works.

Take a look around you people. There aren't that many young people and the ones who are around aren't particularly inclined to want to take care of us. We are presently an aging society. You liberals helped a whole bunch of people to decide that life just wasn't all that important....children could be flushed and aborted. Don't you think the children who survivied didn't figure that out? You liberal/dem/socialist made sure they knew...you taught them in school that if they had sex and got pregnant, they could do away with their baby...and don't think those kids didn't realize that could have been them, when you made it your business to teach them how abortion came about.

So, there is no more money. There is nothing to pay your pensions, or to let you retire at 50, there is barely anything of social security, and Obama wants death panels, doctors and the state, to decide which of us is worth saving.

All of this is your socialism...welcome to reality. March all you like, look for arbritration all you want...there simply is not enough money and the rest of us don't want to support you. So be content that you have a job...and grateful that you aren't paying more. Because the next move is for the government to stop hiring and start contracting the work out. Then how will you feel?

"Communism/socialism does not work. It only works as long as the money holds out."

I agree with that sentiment. I also think the exact opposite of the spectrum won't work. . . the money concentrated into the hands of a few who tell everyone else what to do.

Unions are a function of capitalism, Marxism and Socialism are not the same thing there are no unions in Marxist States. What the governor is doing in centalizing control, eliminating bargaining and rfusing to negotiate is in fact much closer to Marxist totalitarian practice.

jkh

Actually, Marxism has nothing to do with Totalitarianism. You're talking about Stalinist "Communism". Marx would very much have been in favor, in the short term, of granting collective rights to the working class. And that's not a bad thing.

Very, very few people seem to understand what Marxism, Socialism, and Communism actually are. People talk about Karl Marx as if he were some sort of evil genius. He was a guy who wanted to find a way to keep people from taking advantage of each other and to put an end to the needless suffering of a large portion of the population.

Would the ultimate Marxist Communist utopia really be the perfect kind of society? No, I highly doubt that that would be the case. People aren't necessarily equal in mind, and there need to be leaders and followers. We need competition to get better. Communism is ultimately naive, and even under the circumstances envisioned by Marx, where people ultimately lose the ambition to roll over one another, it's the kind of system where it only takes one person to bring it all down.

Finally, last point, under a perfect Marxist Communist society, Totalitarianism is utterly impossible. That would mean that there was a ruling class. Marxism is a pure democracy at it's end. Not a Republic, a democracy. Where everyone's voice is completely equal.

ded,

Interesting take and I do not entirely disagree this may be true in the initial socialism stage but not so in the communist stage. It also depends on what you take out of Das Kapital and the Communist Manifesto and whether it involved Engels. Theoretically Communism should preclude an individual dictator, in the transition state of Socialism a Dictatorship of the Proletariet is explicit giving Absolute`power to the government established by the proletariat in order to eliminate all Capitalistic structure. In reality I know of no Marxist government which did not move to a totalitarian form of Communism whether Lenninist, Stalinist, Maoist or as practiced by Castro or Tito. Agrarian or Industrial Communism has always devolved in practice to Totalitarianism.

JKH

But how do you define a Dictatorship of the Proletariat? To me, it suggests a sorta of cabal of the working class, who'd dictate the terms in favor of those who work.

Indeed, I wouldn't call Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Tito, or anyone else, an actual Marxist. They've all been after personal authority.

Which is, after all, another problem with the overall idea of Communism - it's not only ultimately flawed in the way it would stunt society, it would be almost impossible to get the appropriate leaders to carry it to fruition. No one seems to ever have the proper good will inside of them.

"they are destroying this country...."???

Recall that it is the formation of Unions that led to child labor laws, safer work places, equal and adequate pay, overtime, hours -- to name a few. Without Unions, our labor force would resemble that of a third-world nation. Low wages, no rights, unsafe.

Yeah Eastcoastchic, that may have been true 100 years ago... but today unions are nothing more than bloated jabba the hut creatures mindlessly gorging themselves at the public trough.

They are destroying this country and are a thing of the past.

Wow, I have to say, that is the funniest thing I have heard yet. What corporation gave you those talking points?

Corporate greed and the highest income gap in 100 years has nothing to do with though right? Wait, 100 years??? Hmmmm looks like unions are still needed to prevent us from ignorance...

Holy cow...what would Florida ever do if they were to become a right to work state...following labor laws or face a threat of being shut down or heavily fined...oh wait it isn't 1955 anymore with sweat shops...you can report violations to the government and have something happen. Even in a heavily Republican district. Pull the bag off your heads...the Unions usefulness has been way outlived...just ask all the car manufacturers and their employees who's jobs are now in Mexico and overseas where it is cheaper to make a car there then have to make it with Union strong arming. How do you think Toyota got so strong in the 80's...the unions were to greedy and basically put the auto workers out of jobs while they sat in the offices and pulled paychecks to the end.

Those very laws of the state came about through the actions of unions. Twit.

You are in for a bigger sandwich with a lot less bread. No capitalist ever made any concession to labor without fear of losing money.

BTW

it is couched as the wage/price spiral but actually it is the profit/price/wage spiral and it is profit unshared that created the phenomenon.

Yes DESTROYING the country. When I first entered the work force out of high school I was amazed that I HAD to join the union. I mean it's crazy to think I had to join in order to be employed at my previose company. 10 years later I'm happy working for a non union company. It's not a sweat shop....people are promoted or fired due to performance not years in service...my pay is pretty decent (I would say above the industry standard). Yes I took a hit when the economy first took a dump 3 years ago. My company had to tighten it's belt and we learned to be a more efficient company. I love working at a place where crappy workers aren't kept around becuase of Union protection. People should be promoted or fired due to performance....not weekly dues.

If this is so important to balancing the budget, then why is Gov. Walker only going after the teachers union and not firefighters and policemens union. Oh I forgot , The policemen and firefighters unions contributed to his campaign, The teacher's union did not

This is the part I LOVE!! The unions trying to defend themselves by stating what they did for the country 50-100 years ago. Wages & rights are definately a good thing. For me and my family, I say a big "THANK YOU" for all that work.

Now flash forward to today. Unions have ceased to be useful in any way except for buying and selling of politicians.

Keep saying the mantra: "My union is useful and has a place in the country today." Say it 20 times a day and see if it comes true. The rest of us will be looking for a job with a company that HASN'T been shipped overseas because of the unions...

Hey FormerSGT:

Florida IS a right to work state. Yet still has a projected deficit of 2.5 billion. But I guess that it's also the unions fault.

The truth is some unions are abusive for sure, in some ways more than others. Just like SOME corporations are just looking to make a buck regardless of the impact on others.

Abuses are everywhere, we need laws that bring a real balance. Right now, things are far from it.

Florida seems to be in a deficit constantly- the retirement capitol of America. The entitlements there must be unreal!! No blame for the unions- it's a situation where they can't tax an aging population any more and there are not enough new business moving in to create a new tax base. You also have- and yes, I'm going to be the first to bring it up- a very LARGE illegal immigration problem that burdens the system to a breaking point! Theory of diminishing returns.

The truth is some unions are abusive for sure

Where is jimmy hoffa?

On July 30, 1975, former Teamsters President Jimmy Hoffa stood outside the Machus Red Fox Restaurant in Bloomfield Township, Michigan, impatiently scanning the parking lot. The man who had made the Teamsters the most formidable labor union in the country was already angry. It was quarter after two in the afternoon, and the men he was supposed to be meeting for lunch hadn't arrived yet. Hoffa was a stickler for punctuality, and it was his understanding that they were to meet at 2:00.

The smell of sarcasm doesn't even register with some people. I guess I have to spell it out every time.

Yes RN, the first sentence is me correcting SGT and then making a sarcastic comment based on what seems to be his reasoning.

Their plan is private only to the teachers, The taxpayers are still footing the bill and by switching they could save the taxpayers money.

Public employees are just that employees of the public, yes they deserve to be paid a fair wage and have fair benefits but they are not some elite group and when the taxpayer can no longer afford to pay for them then they have to conform to the ability of what the taxpayer can afford.

I think that is the part of the debate that gets drown out by all the hype. The public sector has no constitutional right to collective bargaining, nor do they have a right to have union dues collected automatically and given to the union coiffures.

Really? My teacher health plan is private only to teachers? I get Dean insurance. The same as what my husband's PRIVATE company offers him. The only reason that we use my plan rather than his (because the difference in paid costs for us is negligible) is that his company pays about $1700 more than my school employer for us NOT to use its insurance plan.

hey Fred, that little blurb you pasted doesn't illustrate Gov. Walker trying to push teachers to state health plans, he was merely making a comparison of prices. It seems he's trying to save tthe teachers some money.

brent, if government sponsored health plans are the tool of the devil, why even use them for any reasonable comparison? Read not the chemical composition of the ink, but the context of the message.

state-run.....not Obama's monstrosity

State employees work for the public. Just like the Gov and the senate and house members. Here is an idea, why not put it up for a vote to the people of Wisconson? The Gov like house and senate members are elected by the people to do a job, however some issues really do need to be sorted out by the people themselves. This appears to be one of those issues.

As for the AFT I personally find it intresting that they fight so hard against Charter or Private schools when parents make those choices for their children. Most states fund public schools via property taxes along with police and fire etc. If my child isnt attending a public school but a private school then why would I pay tax for a public school and not get a tax rebate of that portion of my tax that would go to funding a public schooling, to help fund the school my child is actually attending? It is my money you know.

Unfortunately unions have not done themselves any favors by their past practices.

Seniority??? I want someone who actually can do a job well not someone who has been in a position for x years. If they dont perform then replace them with someone who can. Remember, it is still my money

Collective Bargaining??? How about rewarding those employees who actually perform at a higher level. Giving a raise or better benifits to someone who shows up isnt my idea of a good deal. Once again still my money

Oh yeah before I get trampled on by the public employees saying they pay taxes too, its a wash, you would not have a job to pay taxes on if you were not hired by the public to start with.

IMHO from the gov all the way to the janitor of the public school, you need to follow the will of the people. In this case as it seems that the will of the people seems murky, clear it up by a special vote on this issue, perferably without all the usual demonizing. It should clear it up for everyone.

Instead of laughing, prove that what he said was not true. But you can't do that, so you do what most dem/lib/socialists do...you get nasty and act like you might have a secret brain we haven't discovered and you know something...NOT.

"How about rewarding those employees who actually perform at a higher level. Giving a raise or better benifits to someone who shows up isnt my idea of a good deal. Once again still my money"

What about when they scrap those performing at, and being paid at, a higher level for someone with no experience because they're trying to save some money on salary? That happened at my at-will job. Better employees (quality AND production) lost their jobs because of the budget.

Also, how do you define who "works hard"? Almost everyone thinks they work hard. I'll give you an example: You have one employee who has clients telling management how great a job they are is doing and their previous employer offered them a decent-sized raise (when there was a wage freeze) in an attempt to keep them. This person handles all large projects that comes through the pipes (because it's easier to have someone take a little longer and do it right the first time than to have someone screw it up and have to fix it), and is "in charge" when the administrator is gone On the other hand, you have an employee that sits on the computer or their phone almost every day. One of the two has been incredibly vocal in the past about being underpaid. . . care to guess which one? It was the second employee.

You can't believe what people say about themselves. I, for one, know people who teach, and they are more dedicated to their jobs than most people I know.

If there are no longer any unions, there won't be any middle class taxpayers for him to fight for, and being a sock puppet for the wealthy, I'm sure he's fully well aware of that. It's just a shame so many of the rest of you are not.

Who's this "We" and I feel sorry for you if this BOZO is an inspiration to you.

Have you or anyone you know ever collected unemployment? or had a job to go back to after having a child or being hospitalized? or been hurt at work and had their medical bills paid and collected disability? If you say "no" then good for you, if you say "yes" than thank a Union Worker. They paid their dues for all of us to get these and other benefits for ALL Workers. Hardly "bullies" and they too are middle class taxpayers. We need Unions to provide for the checks and balances against Corporate Greed.

Yea, keep on going governor Walker, your the best thing for the Dems and middle class. By the way union workers are tax payers.

DB17, that's ridiculous and obviously not true to THINKING people! the fact that you said that ONLY means you are a tool and gullible. consider for reality please; if any work place inequality took place in TODAY'S America, there would be 20 lawyers lined up to take that case and would be favored to win. POINT; unions are obsolete and ONLY an extension of the democrat party.

GET REAL!

You have watched too many movies. Most Unions dont have much in the bank at all, and dont have "bullies". A lot of Unions are out there just so proper process can occur between a emplyee/employer, and FAIR pay/beneifits are kept and obtained. Damn shame you buy that spoon feeding of right wing crap you get on a daily basis.

Well said Janey!

thank God the governor has a well paid job. Good health care benefits, private teachers for his children and body guards for him. So why to worry about the public servants? He has exactly all what he needs as well as all of those who support him.

Geegee, just like union bosses?

Jay- "not very much in the bank"???? So just how did the unions manage to pay large 6 figure salaries to the leadership all around and more than $13 million to get Dems elected????? Trumpky made a reported 40+ visits to the White House- What for???? The unions are now saying they will dump $30 million into fighting all the "Anti-Union" protests around the nation.

That's a decent chunk of change. Please don't try and tell me you believe they don't keep a deep bank account.

Janey, I did not realize that only members of unions collected unemployment, Or that only they could get family leave, and that only they worked for employers who contributed to their health care plans or had workmans comp. Unions have absolutely nothing to do with all of these things that are available in the private sector. The union serves it's self and it's memebers and no one else. I have nothing to thank them for.

Think we don't need unions? What happened to the pension plans of the 80's or the full health and dental? As the union membership drops, so did the middle classes standard of living. 7% of the private work force is union, but for what their being plamed for, you would think, they own 50%. 6 figure salary is nothing for an executive. Just look at the Koch brothers, they made a 8 to 9 figure salary and they just opened the state for more no bid contracts.

Villianize the righteous, and the fools just flock to the movement to crush them.

Finally, someone has the balls to call it what it is. The "Take America Back To Pre-Medieval Times" movement is MUCH more at play here than the rest of the nation wants to admit.

Good luck to all the sane, fair-minded folks in WI.

If only those same fair minded citizens had won the last election or had taken care of the budget scenarios earlier, the state would be in a different position.

Independent - the republicans saw no reason to do anything about any budgets either until they lost power then all of a sudden it's ALL about the economy and budgets... it's only their means back into power.. they were just riding public sentiment to get back on top. They care nothing for the people, only their corporate gods...

Jermiah S. of Wisconsin

This is about Obama:

Obama doesn't care about budgets. He is just a tool for redistributing wealth in America. Then Redistribute America's wealth to the 3rd. World.... A Level Global Playing field.

Obama wants to Federalize Business and Industry. Regulate them out of the ability to compete. Then step in to "save" the jobs....Get everyone onto the Federal Payroll.

Obama wants Department of Education to provide all the funding for Education. College Student Loans can only be gotten from the Gov't already. Next will be what classes you must take in order to receive the money.

Obama DOES side with his Union Benefactors. It's the true reason they exist. Perpetual fundraisers for the Progressive Cause. Andy Stern of SEIU was the most frequent visitor to the WhiteHouse the first 2 years, Now AFL-CIO Dick Trumka is there 2-3 days a week and in daily phone contact with the WhiteHouse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4NrT2oTQqE&feature=player_embedded

Keep watching....MSNBC reports Obama doesn't even meet with his own Cabinet Officials....It's the Shadow Government of Czars he spends his day consulting with.

Thank you Barry

When I read the level of illiteracy in this Country it reinforces my opinion on the average American on the street. Its not about "Political Parties" my friend....Their aren't any. Do you think your friend the Democrat pays less taxes? Your Pal the Republican pays less for gas at the pumps? Your buddy at work who is a Tea Party member gets a better deal at the Supermarket??? Do you think any of these people actually are truthful about their Political affiliation??? Sorry Spanky but all the deals made in Washington are between everyone. You help me with this and my Pal in the Oil Industry will help you with that...Nothing is ever going to change...From the White House to your local school board member...ALL are beholden to someone or something... Give it a rest. You are getting nothing from none of them....

Obama doesn't care about budgets. He is just a tool for redistributing wealth in America. Then Redistribute America's wealth to the 3rd. World.... A Level Global Playing field.

Yet it's Gov. Walker that is taking from the poor and middle class and giving it to the rich corporations. That's redistribution.

Liberals want to tax, spend all the money to find ways to keep themselves in power, tax some more, because they're out of money now, so it's time to raise them, help people to see how evil business is, even though business pay taxes and gives us jobs..they pay the paychecks, so while they're robbing us, they want us to watch as they rob the rich even more...so they can't hire us and help our dilemma, and then the come back for more taxes because they spent it again. They don't ask us, they just take it. And unions are just one more arm of the democrat party and organized crime...they don't care about the workers either...they only care about their money. Governor Walker wants to balance the budget and give people choice about whether or not they want to be in a union, while still keeping their jobs. Yes, it's a good thing for Wisconsin and for the United States. The Unions now are not the unions that were originally formed.

"Geegee, just like union bosses?"

I know someone who is the Union head at a company we've all probably heard about. He's hardly rich. . .

RN in philly - If you want to talk about outsourcing, I already know the solution. End Free Trade and there will be no outsourcing! The problem everyone on capital hill is to corrupt to end it. The only way to fix outsourcing for a state is a sales tax on all goods not made in the US. Everything else, which can be done is being done. If you want Free Trade, you can't have a strong dollar. If you want Free Trade, you must work in a Fascist state, because soon they will take all your rights. Everything with this last recession as been done for the wealthiest of people. Wall street is making millions while US citizens can't find a job.

You want to end outsourcing, you must end Free Trade

There is NO Republican war on the middle class. Who do you think is being forced to pay the outrageous government salaries in Wisconsin. It is in fact the middle class. We can't pay it any longer and we need for the teachers to give back a little. Understand?

Yea Diane, that great war on the middle class...people such as myself whose home ownership taxes pays for a majority of local municipality spending keeps going up while my property value keeps going down yet the local government workers got a friggen' raise this year when I haven't gotten one for 3 years due to cut backs in spending. Your a real genius if you think the rich are the ones getting over on this....apparently you either do not own a home and look at your tax bill breakdown at the end of the year or don't care enough to actually see it and break it down intelligently.

diane (and LIBS like her)

congratulations! you have FALLEN for one of the biggest DNC talking points LIES that exist today. the MIDDLE CLASS will absolutely greatly BENEFIT and grow bigger and stronger by what Walker is doing(more jobs in WI and less taxation for paying for free-loaders). it's IN-DISPUTABLE!

BUT be PROUD (pffft), you fell for it HOOK, LINE, and SINKER!

Yea bill you are rifght those no good lazy teachers make 30000 a year and the koch brothers dont get enough of it and niether do the public insurance companies that heavily supported walkers campaign. Lets tax em more maybe 80-90% so wi can give more corporate welfare

jgplol,

try to keep it accurate here, at least a little bit, PLEASE. don't just make stuff up.

the avg salary for teachers in WI has been reported to be $89,000, not the 30,000 that you state. big difference you see!

FURTHER, the teachers in WI and the Koch Ind are irrelevant and 2000 miles apart. also Koch employees 100,000s of working-Americans and keeps many communities in existence and employed with high paying jobs.

David, are you saying that Koch Ind is located offshore?? I'm sure, based on your comment that you wouldn't make stuff up, and Bellingham Wa is the only city in the Lower 48 that is 2000 miles from Madison (2007mi). If you drive 2000 miles in any other direction you will be out of the United States!

If you are going to infer that others are exaggerating facts, you should at least be accurate in your own statements lest you weaken your credibility.

Hey Bill, I hope those under paid teachers teach your kids!

P.O.,

point taken, OK it's 784 miles! BUT, there IS a big difference when exaggerating "ALOT" of miles, that's off the cuff so to speak! HOWEVER, when exaggerating a SALARY, esp when IT IS the point of the conversation, YOU DON'T TRIPLE understate IT! BIG DIFFERENCE, you see????

but, i see your point, a little bit. i should of said 1000 miles.

Union busting is a field populated by bullies and built on deceit. A campaign against a union is an assault on individuals and a war on the truth. As such, it is war without honor.

The only way to bust a union is to lie, distort, manipulate, threaten, and always (one way or another) attack. The law does not (intervene)....rather, it serves to suggest maneuvers and define strategies," pitting media-supported companies, government, and corrupted union bosses against rank and file unionists, on their own, their grit, resourcefulness, and staying power alone for strategy.

You got to remember this part...the union gave him the money he asked for...so why should they have to give up their right to bargain??

This isnt really about the budget...hello!!

We the independents and the Republicans and the conservatives plan on taking America back from Unions, the democrat/liberal/tax and spend socialists. We don't want to pay for those of you who have free medical and free pensions on our dollar. When you are hired by the goverment, you are paid taxpayer dollars. When you pay taxes, you're only giving a bit back. You have no right to go behind the taxpayers and think you have collective bargaining, while neglecting to allow a huge part of that collective to have a say. Now we do...now we know what we're paying for and we're not getting our money's worth...and we don't wish to pay.

Most of we the taxpayers don't have the luxury of marching around the governor's office...we have to work. We have lives....which is what youv'e counted on all this time. We couldn't get on a bus and make a big show. But we certainly write letters and make phone calls. Don't think the governor is doing this without backing...because he certainly does have backing.

You refuse to hear the taxpayers. You've called us names, told us that we're uneducated and can't think...but you want our money, whether we want to give it to you or not...and you want the right to be ill mannered about it as well. I think you're out of luck.

Your dem/lib/socialist senators will have to return soon. If they do not, then I'm sure it's a very easy thing for a couple of Republicans to switch to democrat...even if it's only for the purposes of giving the Governor a quorum. Or perhaps it won't take a quorum for them to decide to pass a law that the government is out of the employment business altogether and none of you will have jobs. Keep on keeping on...I guess we'll see which way it will go. But if I were you, I would keep a civil tongue in my head.

Right on Nkorb1!

nkorb1,

thanks for taking the time to put together that great post and you are SPOT ON!

"It is in fact the middle class. We can't pay it any longer and we need for the teachers to give back a little. Understand?"

So, why give tax breaks to the upper class that instead of using said tax breaks to cover the increased cost of labor here, ship those jobs overseas and get th benefits of lower labor costs AND tax breaks? Wouldn't eliminating the tax breaks for the upper class decrease the burden on the middle class? Understand?

Go ahead Valerie stand with the workers and as you do get your check book ready cause your gonna pay!!!!

I stand with the TAX PAYERS!!! We're the real people, not the union bigwigs who are afraid of losing power.

Well if you stand with the workers then you might well be standing in an unemployment line. The state is OUT of money so something has to give. All Walker asked for was for the teachers to give us a little and contribute toward their health-care.

yeah, sorry valerie, but it is becoming anti-American, more-and-more, to stand for and with the unions.

careful what you wish for or you will join these greedy protesters on the un-employment rolls.

The teachers agreed to a pay-cut and to pay more for their health insurance already.Maybe you should research the facts on the issue before spouting off.7 of the 10 top Campaign Donors in the U.S. are corporations,who support the Republican Party,the other 3 are Unions who support the Democrats.The bottomline is this is Union Busting designed to silence and defund the opposition.

The state isn't out of money, check your facts. All Walker asked for was for teachers to give a little and contribute toward their health care??? They've already said they'll do that. So what's Walker waiting on? I'll tell you. That's not what he really wants. He wants to break the unions. He wants the U.S. to be governed by big corporations. And we're well on our way to that. Stop him people, stop him.

Which they agreed to,but they want to keep collective bargaining rights.

Bill,

You evidently haven't been following the US national news from your home on Mars. The public workers, including teachers, have conceded to paying more for their healthcare premiums and pension contributions. In fact, they agreed to the 12% healthcare premium increase and 6% pension increase asked for by Walker. How is this not giving a LITTLE and contributing towards their healthcare?

Welcome to 1899,

One of the major issues here is that the Union loses its ability to require (read "extort") union dues from it's members. Why is no one talking about this. In my opinion this is the elephant in the room.

Without the automatic extraction of dues, WEAC loses a huge portion of its operating budget, a budget, by the way that spends a HUGE amount of money in the state to get "preferred" officials elected.

Talk about a compromised feedback loop. The Union spends big money to elect the folks who are to negotiate contracts with - wait for it - THE UNION!!! Can I get in on a sweet negotiation set-up like this?

D Merriam - I live in the year 2011 and your comment is sooooo inane that it defies comment. Poor you. You have my sympathies.

Janey,

Enlightening response. How about you help out poor little ole me and point out the factual errors in my post? I can't help but be ignorant, I was educated and live in Wisconsin, and was a National Merit Scholarship finalist my Senior year of High School, IQ of 138. Please, please, PLEASE help save me from myself. I am obviously not competent to have an opinion contrary to yours!

D Merriam Brains does not=Common Sense

D Merriam, smart post(26.11) in letting JANEY down easy as you totally DESTROYED her.

JANEY, further, D Merriam's post at 26.9 = TOTAL common sense! hmmm, ODD YOU don't see it?!?!

good show david!

David - I have 2 nieces who are actual teachers in WI. They make $40,000.00 per year. They would love to make $89,000. Where are you getting your information?

Elmo - I not commented on the actual dollar amount that anyone is making - you must have me confused with someone else. I am not suggesting, nor would I suggest that the large majority of teachers are overpaid.

There is a definitive difference between collective bargaining rights and collective bargaining privileges. You're insisting that you be given rights that you don't and never did have. Keep going and you'll have no voice at all.

"Bush hater-1426382

Bill,

You evidently haven't been following the US national news from your home on Mars. The public workers, including teachers, have conceded to paying more for their healthcare premiums and pension contributions. In fact, they agreed to the 12% healthcare premium increase and 6% pension increase asked for by Walker. How is this not giving a LITTLE and contributing towards their healthcare?"

Conservatives in Texas are so entrenched in their ideas, they're not budging an inch. They refer to me as "that Liberal." I had to explain that I'm not Liberal, I'm just more Liberal than the extreme Right. The response: "That makes you a Liberal." Even though I often agree?

Finally we see a politician with the balls to stand up to the unions. Public sector unions are on their way out because the taxpayers are fed up with paying these slugs more than they are worth and then giving them fat retirement benefits after 20 yeara of sitting on their asses.

You are misinformed or you like to lie, I am a christian who believes in god, stop your falsehoods, fact would be u care for youself and dont care for anyone plight, i know teachers from wisc. that teach special ed. you have no clue!!! Walkers move is a lie unions have created the middle class, and have help wages and benifits for the non-union workers. Plus the working poor. When you pass on the guy upstairs will reward you for your mean and jealous demeanor.

Spot on and remember the state is forced to collect union dues from all the teachers and turn it over to the union. Why should teachers be forced to join a union?

jeff, you forgot to include the Marxist party that have happily joined these protest. RECENTLY in a video of the Atlanta protest, The Marxist party was shown giving out newspapers, and most the protesters were identified as carry a copy. SCARY what these protesters STAND for. i'll say it again, IT WOULD BE VERY EMBARRASSING TO BE A DEMOCRAT RIGHT NOW!

And yes Governor Walker, I'm sure you realize it was Stalin that funded the creation of Koch Industries.

""

Federal credit unions may apply to the NCUA for Low-Income Credit Union or LICU status. To qualify for LICU status, the majority of the credit union's membership meet specific requirements in order to be considered "low-income".

This LICU status allows the credit unions to benefit from certain NCUA programs to enhance its capacity to serve underserved populations who may otherwise lack access to credit or other financial services

This expansion prompted banks to challenge the 1982 regulation as illegal, a challenge upheld in a 1998 U.S. Supreme Court decision.

Many Union members specially low income has benefits from this ,sending their kids to university,with better credits benefits.

NO wonder the Rich/walker wants to burst the Union.

Well they know they're the next group who will be working for slave wages along with firefighters and other public servants...

"Slave wages" you mean like the rest of us 90% that aren't in the union get? Where was the union support for us the past five years as we have been beaten up on our wages, 401K match and employee deductions for health care increases? Did they care about us and were they demonstrating about our loss of income. No, because it didn't affect them and their overblown benefits.

The teachers make $89,000 a year. That's low income? AND they get free medical and free pensions for life, and a retirement at 50. Sorry, but that's not a bad job. I can't say as I blame them for wanting to remain on the dole...if I had this racket, I might raise hell to keep it too. But that isn't enough...they want a RIGHT to continue to MAKE DEMANDS ON OUR GOVERNMENT FOR MORE OF OUR TAXPAYER DOLLARS. This after being told that their demands have assisted in nearly bankrupting the state. They don't care about the rest of us...and maybe we wouldn't either in the same circumstances. But reality speaks loudest. Many of us don't even make that much, and we already pay 20% of our medical and more than half of our pensions. If we're fortunate, we have an employer who will match our funds in our 401K's....but that's out money...not taxpayer dollars. Why should I have to pay for my pension, and yours too? And I won't even live as well as you will..I don't make that much, though some of us do.

""Slave wages" you mean like the rest of us 90% that aren't in the union get? Where was the union support for us the past five years as we have been beaten up on our wages, 401K match and employee deductions for health care increases? Did they care about us and were they demonstrating about our loss of income. No, because it didn't affect them and their overblown benefits."

Most of the people I know that work in the private sector have it better off than the people I know in the Unions. I wouldn't trade my job for any of theirs, and I don't make a huge amount.

n most teachers don't make 89k a year. Fact the principle makes that kind of money. Median teacher pay in WI is more like 50k, I don't know if it includes benefits. If you miss the facts, all your other posts are noise.

TonyO ever wonder why you have slave wages, not really slave wages? Only 7% of the private workforce is union. What happened to the pensions and full health care of the 80's? What happened to the standard of living of the US citizen? Did Corporations steal it with their bought off no bid contracts? Or did they buy it off with those Free Trade Agreements, which outsourced over 5 million jobs?

singe - I would hardly call the crowd in new NYC "big." Imagine the millions that are opposed to unions that stayed home..............................

How do you know that the ones who stayed home are oppossed to unions? Typical Republican thinking.....which is no thinking at all.

Bill in Houston

They stayed home watching Glenn Beck spew dribble and load them up with new thoughts for the week. Because that is something they sorely lack.

Thats UNION thugs NO others

Confirmed: Union-Bashing Right-Wing Media Stars Hannity, Limbaugh and O'Reilly Are AFL-CIO Union-Affiliated Members.

You are so very wrong. What he has done is to call attention to taxpayers regarding how much we've been paying. Even if he doesn't succeed, there will be a referendum all over this nation. I know I don't want my dollars paying for your pension. Save your own money, just like the rest of us have to.

"Who is failing to show up for their job? WI Dems."

I hope we all remember the Republicans doing this in 1980s in DC.