I am support staff for county law enforcement and will politiely say you have no idea what you are saying, or more pointedly say you are outright spewing lies and hyperbole. You made this up, you have no way to prove what you are saying. Support staff for cops that's what I am- at least we had to take a spelling test to get the job- not so for the cops, they had their own tests, but spelling was not one of them. But you notice that Wisc governator is not going after them cops. Why? Because the rich will need someone to protect them when the normal citizens turn against them- so they must treat the cops special and give them special benefits from the rest of the professional people working for the public sector. I have worked for cops for 20 years and I make $23 an hour. I think I deserve it (and more) and I bet anyone in the private sector would deserve it too doing the same thing I do for 20 years. So, since you wouldn't say what you do, I can imagine you have a low paying private sector job, so just go boo hoo your way all the way to Walmart and pray for your wish that all Americans become second-rate (and low paid) citizens (except you of course). And start showing some proof of your OPINIONs.

Doogal, I think you will be one of the first to be let go. Get over it.

Doogal, You are the moron

Ahhhh, pot, kettle is calling!

Is this all you can do is personally attack someone? Really?

ARRELL - You want to talk about "puppet masters"?

The dems in Indiana fled because of a proposal the would simply allow employees to decide for themselves whether or not to join a union instead of allowing the employer to require it as a condition of employment.

If you think that was done for the "poor workers" rather than the Dems union bosses you are a grade A fool.

I thought it was interesting that 1-2 million Federal workers, many who are unionized, have very limited rights to collective bargaining, to strike, or to demand anything due to laws passed by the Carter Administration and Democrats who held both houses of Congress. The workers however have to pay union dues! And, gasp, the Great Obama has done nothing about the situation! Why? Now there's a worthwhile question demanding to be answered! Could it be that all that is considered important is the collection of union dues to be donated to the political campaigns of those in the Democratic Party, so they will in turn support the unions and force more unionization on to the American worker, and have even even more access to union dues "donations"? It certainly seems so! Might explain Obama's mostly silent stance on the this "right-to-collective-bargaining" controversy!

Unions + Democrats = Power Grab + Corruption.

Face it, unions are just another form of the old "protection" racket, except they are supported by Democrats in the government.

The 20% Party of No and Bagger electorate in this country, have not begun to see the rage of the smart, sane, and rational 80%.

There is an International disgust of plutocratic oligarchies...even here in America.

No he is not the "Grade A" fool. That bill was not to give employees the right not to "join a union" that little gem was slipped in after the protests started. The bill was and is to get rid of the union so that workers have no recourse when they are being taken advantage of. I never cease to be amazed by just how stupid so many poor and middle class working Americans are. All of you supporting this jerk of a Governor,

• Did you hear the tape of what he had to say when he thought that he was speaking to his billionaire handler?
• Did you stop for a minute to wonder why walker and all the other re-pug governors have been cutting taxes for the very rich and then turning to the middle class to pay for it?

I know that the lie they keep on telling is that "the rich pay more taxes overall hence the need for the tax cut" but think about this mathematically. Assuming they are not using any of the tax loopholes that resulted in a multinational company like GE paying $0.00 taxes for 2009.

I make $2M and pay 30% in taxes means I pay 600,000 in taxes which leaves me with That still leaves me with $1,400.000 in disposable income.

I make 60,000 with a tax rate of 25% means that I pay 15,000 in taxes and have $45,000 in disposible income.

Lets say walker and his crones cut the taxes for the rich from 30 to 19%, that now means that they pay 380,000 in taxes. So the make up the short fall (which is what walker is trying to do) he says that the $60,000 people whose taxes he did not cut must now pay an additional $5,000 a year for health care (disposable income is now down to $40,000), and take a pay cut say of 5% (which would be based on 60,000) that would be $3,000 disposable income is now down to $36,000 and an other 5% for their pensions, disposable income is now down to $33,000 Now add in higher gas and food prices, and other living expenses for a family of four. To add lets add the provision to the bill banning strikes and the right to negotiate for better pay and benefits FOREVER EVEN ADJUSTMENTS FOR INFLATION.

NOW tell me that Walker and his other heartless animal friends are trying to SAVE the freaking middle class.

Witchking - "May 1933 Hitler abolishes Unions"

And the German Economy grew more than it ever had afterwards.

I guess you are looking for the "OMG" "Hitler!!!!" emotional reaction. Hitler was also a vegetarian, they must be evil right?

Whether they were "abolished", failed on their own, under Hitler, or under Churchill, the economic result was economic growth.

Arrel, at least he is a useful idiot. Can't say as much for liberals like yourself. The stupid high corporate tax rates combined with inflated Union wages are what send corporations overseas and prices some American made goods out of American's budgets. Guess the decades of Unions being in the Corporations pockets just sails in one of your ears and out of the other without encountering much resistance. How do you think the Japanese cars got their start here? The first ones were pos's but so much cheaper than the pos's out of Detroit in the late 70's and early 80's we were overpaying for all those years to feed the UAW! Public Unions? Bah! You so afraid the govt won't treat you well that you spend your time hand picking politicians with Union dues to do your bidding. Name one corporation that donated more to any presidential campaign in history than Union lemmings gave Barrak! Go ahead, I'll be waiting.

Rob you are complaining about pennies when your buddies are GIVING BILLIONS to the oil co., wall street, oh yes and the small bisinesses they CLAIM to represent are lobbying firms and hedge funds. You might be right if you think the teachers that make an average of 40 K are bankrupting the US BUT why are the repub'sstill trying to cover the tax breaks for the corps. that send AMERICAN jobs overseas???

Yes thank you gov walker, for being brave. All units of govt in this country are bankrupt, because they are spending too much money and they want more of the taxpayers money all the time, just to fund their out of control spending. Public workers make more money overall than private sector workers. Plus they also get pensions, when pensions have all but vanished for the private sector workers. Plus they can retire at a younger age, in their late fifties to collect these pensions. Many times their pensions are a good portion of what they earned when working. It is high time that public workers who are paid by the taxpayers, have saleries and benefits that are in line with everybody else. Govet HAS to cut spending. And has to cut a lot more of spending than just ehis.

Why are all of these comments being collapsed? And when the first comment of a section is collapsed, all the comments under it are too. MSNBC?

Mostly advertising is what I see, anybody have an opinon, not koch bros, talking points?

While far from the only reasons. Unions and taxes are helping to drive all of those jobs overseas. When a company starts losing money by doing their manufacturing in the US, it will move to where it can be profitable. I was layed off from a firm that found itself in that predicament. When it is cheaper to manufacture our goods overseas and import them into the US and thus become profitable a lot of these firms are going to do it.

They send American jobs overseas because the boneheads demowits in DC try to tax them out of existence.

They've had their Bush tax cuts for over 10 years. Where are the jobs and why did last year they create 1.2 million jobs overseas and less than a million here?

You still believe that tax cut BS after 10 years of it and not a damned thing to show for it except the jobs are still leaving the US?

Serioiusly. LOL!!

My experience re unions is

Extortionist unions simply keep the incompetant on the job.

I've always made more money working in a merit shop where my abilities are compensated regardless of time on the job.

Barely 13% of people working belong to unions. Wonder why? I love the propanda union supporters spread. Here's a fact for ya:

AFSCME contributed a combined $87.5 million to support democratic candidates in the past election leading prominent conservative groups like the Chamber of Commerce and the Rove-supported American Crossroads

There seems to be a lot of folks who don't understand that this is a republican agenda aimed at "union busting" for political reasons and nothing to do about the state budget.Then there are the conservo_sheep who fully understand that it is about union busting and they are just being conservative, how to put this tactfully,......SCUM!

Take a look at Rush Limbaugh when he's all agitated and red faced and ready to explode like a puss filled pimple having heard that school children are getting an affordable lunch to eat, that's a conservative in all their subhuman glory....

Brandon

The 20% Party of No and Bagger electorate in this country, have not begun to see the rage of the smart, sane, and rational 80%.

There is an International disgust of plutocratic oligarchies...even here in America.

Well, I guess that says it all Brandon! You're really hot today! I think you got the numbers bass-ackwards, my friend. Smaller governement ... less spending ... Constitution ... I'm trying to figure out why all the illegals are stepping all over themselves to GET here if the U.S. is so bad.

Really, this one surprised me from you! I didn't think you were THAT far to the Left.

Here's the scoop ... Senators are employed to show up to work in their ... SENATE not on TV adds in another state. We would call that 'abandonment' of their position for which they can be removed from office. OH, Yeah ... there are petitions to do that circulating in WI.

You know, at least they DO get to negotiate for wages. That's more than Federal Public Service workers get. I guess that's OK for Barrack, Nancy, and Harry (and Jimmy Carter who signed the law) ... so sounds like WI still is ahead of the Feds.

Post 1.24 - Viki Babbles Gonia

I hope this means that the “gang” that collapses posts for no violation only because they support MSNBC, President Obama and left of center views will no longer be collapsed for no reason whatsoever. This is the gist of your post, as I understand it. Hooray

I think it should be posted routinely on every article, enforced and consistent violators banned for extended periods of time. Your post must certainly rate as post of the year for many posters that have their posts collapsed for supporting President Obama and a real and not phony national health plan, also, supporting a raise in taxes as proposed by the current administration and a cut in taxes for the middle class incomes.

The 20% Party of No and Bagger electorate in this country, have not begun to see the rage of the smart, sane, and rational 80%.

There is an International disgust of plutocratic oligarchies...even here in America.

Paying tax to public union = extorsion

In Denver Colorado over 3,000 supporters rallied to show their of public workers in Wisconsin and across the country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m93bC7uMrk

And the other 2.7 MILLION people of the Denver metro area didn't.

pjam09 Great comment!! It puts everything in perspective doesnt it?

Kind of an incestous relationship to have the people the unions elect 'negotiate' their contracts isn't it?

When they are broken, you are next. When will you ever learn, the benefits that workers have were hard won by unions.

It amazes me to see that people still do not see that this union busting by the Walker and company has nothing to do with the budget. (Proof: public employees have already said that they get a pay cut and pay for their our pensions) What drives this union busting has everything to do with the ultra right trying to pave the road for 2012 election. They are trying to bust any all organizations that might support Democrats in 2012 just like they busted ACORN. My message to them is keep it up. The other 2.7 Million in Denver are watching and starting to see these people for what they are.

pjam09-the others were working their second jobs.

Mike,

It amazes me to see that people still do not see that this union busting by the Walker and company has nothing to do with the budget.

It amazes me that you still keep harping on the "union busting" talk. First, they can negotiate for wages. Second, that's more than Federal workers. And lastly, why is it that you're union bosses are so frazzeled? If the Union is such a good deal for you workers you'll continue to vote every year to re-certify.

Me thinks you protest to much! Actually, it a Demo ploy isn't it? You just HATE the Tea Party that wants less government, less spending, and more private jobs?

There's no busting going on. It's your union bosses that are afaid you might wise up and leave THEM busted!

Astonished, as the old saying goes,"Take from Peter to pay Paul", is the basis of the union fight. Do not be shortsighted in thinking a few concessions are warranted from one side, with out a negative effect on all.

The discussion has forgotten the "pork" built in to the bill which has huge significance to the tax base, yet those issues are overlooked by most. Like smoke and mirrors, to accommodate the true scope of the legislation.

I understand the fees that the State allows the private investing firms to charge the retirement funds are near 20%. This is highly inappropriate compared to the usual private fee for investment most people pay. Yet we hear little of this. You have to follow the money as "Deep Throat" said, to find the true parasite in this deficit,

Also the projected deficit is a accounting error as it is based on 2008 figures for the performance of the funds, when the investments were in a large downturn. Lately the funds have seen a positive return, yet those projections are not calculated in the current budget deficit.

Bob,

Then get you Senate toads back to work if you think you have a case! Frankly, they have as much credulity with me as Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid during the "ram it home" Democrat congress. They're like spoiled 5th graders throwing themselves on the floor with a tantrum because they didn't get their own way!

Your analogy has no point to argue, as it comes from your bias, and not reason.

Stay stupid, I don't care. If you choice to debate with off subject content, I will not oblige you, Sorry Dummy.

P.S. The unions have no say so as to how or by who the funds in the benefit package are invested. Do you think the Repugs will tell you when they change the process to their buddy's favor? And you are not their buddy.

Please provide your proof. They have made significant concessions. They just don't want to lose their rights to collective bargaining.

I live right in Chicago and see the worst of it all the time! It's very sad but true.

Rob, I understand you don't like paying taxes for government workers, but being a government worker myself, I have to say I pay taxes too. My income pays our property taxes and income taxes, and if you add those together I work half the year (6 months) to pay our taxes. My tax money paves your roads, fixes your street signs, protects your home and property, pays wages to other government workers and military, pays regulators to keep our food safe, pays scientists to find new drugs to cure infection and cancer, keeps our skies clean from pollution, provides parks and recreation in our county, and most of all - purchases goods and services from people in this country so others can make a good living. The rich greedy Koch brothers and their ilk have an advantage over me though, I can't buy and sell my politicians like they can, and they have, with Gov. Walker of Wisconsin, and I can't control what is shown on cable TV or in our newspapers no matter what lies are being propagated. If the Koch brothers and Gov Walker can reduce the public sector workers to second-rate citizens, then they will have total control over this country for years to come. If you for one minute think they have their sights on only us government workers, then think again. The rest of the middle class will be next, and believe me, you will pay and pay. Maybe not in taxes for the public good, but into the Koch Brothers coffers. I wonder how many months it takes the Koch brothers to pay their taxes. (Answer: probably not 6 months)

I am only reposting because I don't believe in collapsing comments regardless of how frustrating they might be.

I want my voice to be heard.

The 20% Party of No and Bagger electorate in this country, have not begun to see the rage of the smart, sane, and rational 80%.

There is an International disgust of plutocratic oligarchies...even here in America.

In Denver Colorado over 3,000 supporters rallied to show their of public workers in Wisconsin and across the country.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m93bC7uMrk

Strength, courage & power to the people--to my union sisters and brothers in WI and throughout the US, we shall prevail!

No he is not the "Grade A" fool. That bill was not to give employees the right not to "join a union" that little gem was slipped in after the protests started. The bill was and is to get rid of the union so that workers have no recourse when they are being taken advantage of. I never cease to be amazed by just how stupid so many poor and middle class working Americans are. All of you supporting this jerk of a Governor,

• Did you hear the tape of what he had to say when he thought that he was speaking to his billionaire handler?
• Did you stop for a minute to wonder why walker and all the other re-pug governors have been cutting taxes for the very rich and then turning to the middle class to pay for it?

I know that the lie they keep on telling is that "the rich pay more taxes overall hence the need for the tax cut" but think about this mathematically. Assuming they are not using any of the tax loopholes that resulted in a multinational company like GE paying $0.00 taxes for 2009.

I make $2M and pay 30% in taxes means I pay 600,000 in taxes which leaves me with That still leaves me with $1,400.000 in disposable income.

I make 60,000 with a tax rate of 25% means that I pay 15,000 in taxes and have $45,000 in disposible income.

Lets say walker and his crones cut the taxes for the rich from 30 to 19%, that now means that they pay 380,000 in taxes. So the make up the short fall (which is what walker is trying to do) he says that the $60,000 people whose taxes he did not cut must now pay an additional $5,000 a year for health care (disposable income is now down to $40,000), and take a pay cut say of 5% (which would be based on 60,000) that would be $3,000 disposable income is now down to $36,000 and an other 5% for their pensions, disposable income is now down to $33,000 Now add in higher gas and food prices, and other living expenses for a family of four. To add lets add the provision to the bill banning strikes and the right to negotiate for better pay and benefits FOREVER EVEN ADJUSTMENTS FOR INFLATION.

NOW tell me that Walker and his other heartless animal friends are trying to SAVE the freaking middle class.

Times are tough as you say, Because Republicans took a surplus and made it into the largest defect in history, looted the Stock Market, the banks in a feeding frenzy not seen since the last depression, the rich now have a lager percentage of the wealth then at any time since the Great depression that the rich also caused. Republicans canot be trusted to run an economy the world needs rules & cops & people to watch the cops, bcause thats the way it is!

Guess you think that Governors bought by the Criminal Koch brother approved by the Dirty five on the Surpreme Court is the way to go? They will take care of you and your family after they have ripped the money from your pockets that were used to feed your family.

Again......you guys are funny. And your facts are funny. So then if its 80% in favor of this Liberal agenda......again how do you explain the " shellacking" his words? Ive voted in both directions and feel no allegiance to either party. But the real left liberal side of the Democratic party just ruins it for me. Sorry just the way it is right now. I know the "union" brethren are they are mobilizing but we know how few of them there are...... I was a member of the CWA for 10 years, I was told to not work so fast, not to make my brother and sisters look bad. After 10 years in the military I only knew one way.... work hard and work with integrity.

Rob99

It looks like the pro-union types are determined to 'collapse' your comments, for no other reason than they disagree.

Instead of using emotional stuff, I thought it might be good to point out a few things.

Before the WI protests, the municipal bond market was beginning to tank. The reason being is that those buying those bonds wanted to see a higher rate because they did not have confidence that the states could indeed pay down their debt. Chicago floated a bond 6 mos ago that was bearing a 7 percent return. It would be higher now. Since Walker has confronted unions and plans to stop their power and thus the strangle hold on government, the muni market has seen a comeback which is a very good thing. The higher the borrowing costs the more lay-offs and the higher our taxes go to pay for RISK.

With respect to unions. There is no doubt that once upon a time when there was a lot of work, a strong growing industrial revolution, and not nearly enough workers, unions were able to improve pay, benefits, and work conditions because they had people power. Unfortunately they pushed and pushed to the point that they sent work overseas. The union bosses did not look into the future or at least see that machinery and technology was decreasing the need for human labor and thinning margins in many business sectors was forcing plant closures. So unions had a myopic view of the industrial world and they still do.

Union numbers have dwindled. Union jobs have dwindled. So many sectors have left the US and more keep following. There is NO upward pressure on wages, just downward pressure on wages which is why unions are a thing of the past. There are too many people and not enough jobs. They have lost the people power. Companies can now be selective about tolerating a union plant or just moving where unions don't exist and regulations are for more lax.

One other thing. With more regulations come more lobbyists. Obama has drastically increased lobbyists even though he paints them as evil. His plan for America is not working.

From the mouth of Tea Party hero Ronald Reagan

Address to the Nation About Christmas and the Situation in Poland

December 23, 1981

The men who rule them and their totalitarian allies fear the very freedom that the Polish people cherish. The Polish Government has trampled underfoot solemn commitments to the UN Charter and the Helsinki accords. It has even broken the Gdansk agreement of August 1980, by which the Polish Government recognized the basic right of its people to form free trade unions and to strike.

Whether or not this legislation in wisconsin actually becomes law is really no longer of much importance in the minds of millions of voters. This goofy governor, "Scott Walker" has sent the elephant strolling through too many peoples butter dishes. The unchangeable fact is, the republicans will suffer mightily for this overbearing and very stupid display of attempting to make people serve government rather than the other way around.

Doogal, I'm a union member myself and don't look now but pretty much everyone here pays taxes. You forgot to mention a few things in your list of your tax dollar accolades. Like wasted funds through mismanagement, projects that are overbudget ,and a lot of over spending. Put your state in debt,and got your ex pro-union governor booted out! Maybe you guys should have made a better showing at the polls last Nov. Like the unions are now rallying in Madison. Gov. Walker got in with an overwelming majority, seems to me alot of Wisc. citizens were not thrilled with the way the tax $$ was handled. You also forgot to mention how many paid sick days you have per year? Or how many paid vacation days or holidays you get off with pay? I'll tell you how many union workers get in Chicago...none. Unless that is, you're a Fed,County, or State union worker, then you got it made. For instance a first year Journeyman Electrician for the City of Chicago gets 2 weeks paid vacation and all state and fed holidays off with pay! Your talkin' about 20 paid days the first year including election day! The union tradesmen here took a 20%-25% hourly pay cut for residential construction without a vote on it Doogal! No one here is bitching about it because we know that we'll get it back when things pick up. And right now those are the the sacrifices it's gonna take to get the economy rolling. Personally I know where you're coming from but you're post makes you sound selfish. If it takes you 6 months out of the year to pay your taxes you need a new accountant

The unchangeable fact is, the republicans will suffer mightily for this overbearing and very stupid display of attempting to make people serve government rather than the other way around.

On the contrary, it is the stupid display of the Democrat's dereliction of duty fleeing to another state that will deal blows to the liberals. The teachers unions look equally silly for caring so much about the students while shutting schools down for almost 2 weeks because they abandoned their jobs as well.

The correct path is for the parties to vote on it. If the people decided they dont like the actions of the majority party, they will vote them out in the next election and the new majority party can repeal it. You know, similar to what just went on 4 months ago?? Apparently, in a solid "blue state," even these people are fed up enough about paying $5,000-$10,000 annually in property taxes to poor performing teachers and their corrupot unions.

Scott Walker ran his campaign on doing exactly what he is doing now...and won. The silent majority appears to approve of his actions.

Roy Wilson: 2 - A recent study by USAToday showed that the average federal civilian worker was paid over $123,000 in wages and benefits, versus only about $61,000 for IDENTICAL jobs in the private sector (accountants, lawyers, secretaries, clerks, managers, etc.)

I would have to say that USA Today clearly is comparing apples and oranges. Likely in order to get these numbers, they took a very skewed number of public employees with professional degrees and compared it with a number of private sector employees without the same percentages for each type of job.

It's a pretty well known fact among those who have done both types of jobs, that the private sector tends to pay better for the same job as the public sector when there is a totally straight comparison (e.g., attorney to attorney, clerk to clerk, doctor to doctor). In fact, the higher up you go in the education totem pole, the bigger the discrepancy is in favor of the private sector job. I have personally experienced this in comparing a federal job (VA) with a private sector job taken immediately thereafter so no change occurred in cost of living.

Here's a quick graph that illustrates just that point. Notice that WI public employees make a real wage of 4.8% less than their comparable private sector counterparts.

http://www.businessinsider.com/wisconsin-public-sector-wages-2011-2

The so called recent study by USA today, is referred to in numerous places and talked about as coming from a "report from the Commerce Department on Compensation". It has been much quoted in various places, but in none of those will you ever find a direct link to the official government report. Any idea why? Is this new information?

Well, there really isn't a report as such, but lots of data that was extracted from BEA data sets, analyzed and thrown on to convincing looking charts and graphs. But there's a few things that keep this from being an apples to apples comparison. For example, postal workers aren't included in the government numbers nor is the military. The "civilian government workers" included are concentrated in professional (e.g., lawyers, accountants, and economists), administrative, and technical occupations. The "private sector" numbers include everybody including numerous minimum wage, no benefits employees and CEOs.

What that means is these numbers don't reflect "average worker's" compensation but "average" dollars. Total amount of money spent on wages and benefits divided by total number of employees. Also, the government numbers include large payments to "unfunded liabilities" which are not really compensation for the employees that the math uses to reach an "average dollar value". Also, USA Today threw this analysis out there in the heat of debate about public sector Unions. The reality is that the government workers' data reflects many, many government professionals not part of the public sector Unions. If you read carefully, it does just say "government workers" but doesn't really clarify. Not a falsehood, but not the whole story.

It's also noteworthy that they introduced this story like it was some new development. In fact the "double average" number has been the case for a long time including the Bush years. The reason it is double is it's all about how the calculations are done.

There are some interesting FAQs on the BEA website about these numbers. Here is just on important one.

www.bea.gov/faq/index.cfm?faq_id=320

Although the USA Today "analysis" is technically "accurate", it's a very distorted picture of reality. Combine that with similar distortions published by the CATO institute, and this is a smoke an mirrors picture that doesn't reflect reality. (For those that don't know about CATO, it is a Libertarian "think tank" co-founded by none other than Charles Koch. David Koch is an executive VP on the board of directors. Koch foundation, the American Petroleum Institute among others and many large corporations are financial supporters.)

Now here's another interesting bit. USA Today says it "did an analysis", but the only evidence of that we have is one bar chart and their word. Now in the article, they quote Chris Edwards from CATO. I'd bet CATO fed them the data and USA Today made a chart and called it "their analysis." Why? Because it gives the data some credibility as being reporting by a noted news agency vs a right wing think tank.

This is just another example of very well crafted propaganda. It is presented in a way designed to deceive. People read this and think it's talking about average government workers' wages. It's not. People will conclude it's public sector Unions who created the "high wages". It's not. People read federal government worker and think Postal worker or IRS employee. Well that's not accurate either.

So why would a story like this come out telling only selected truths citing government data, but then fail to provide a link to that data? They even cleverly made it hard to locate even if you tried. They say "Department of Commerce", but you'll find nothing there. In fact it is data buried in the Bureau of Economic Analysis. (Technically, part of Commerce) They selectively mined data an put it into an analysis with a predetermined outcome. Technically, you can't call this lying, but it's the telling of selected partial truths. If you want to see the source data see the following for clues in how to find it.

www.bea.gov/faq/index.cfm?faq_id=42

Be careful what you believe when someone else is doing the analysis for you.

Roy Wilson-I worked for the federal govt until recently and my pay and benefits were no where near the figure you sighted for the average worker. Take my word for it.

You're right! I find it infuriating when I see some on here remarking about the standard of living of someone who works 40 hours a weeks and has too many "luxuries" like a cell phone and cable tv. Some even seem to think health insurance is a luxury. They need to get over themselves.

Mike, you know good and well that the lunch program and the teacher's salaries are 2 entirely different things and they they will NEVER be related.

I have seen that 2x2 piece of pizza (mostly bread) and the 1/2 cup of canned peaches or pears they try to pass off as a meal for $3.75. You can get that meal at the for profit Casey's gas station for that. Maybe if they'd pay local people to fix the meals from scratch, instead of getting these ready to eat processed crap from companies trying to make a fast buck stealing the kid's lunch money, they'd be able to fill up the kids with real food.

No, it's not an all you can eat buffet, but it should be 1/3 of the kid's needed nutrients for the day.

Imagine if the Tea Party was around during the slavery years in the 1800's. They'd be telling people "What do you mean you want to be paid a 'decent salary'? Look at how hard slaves work and how they hardly get anything for it! How dare you want to get better paid than them, you traitor!"

itgranny.....

The whole public school education system is broken. From the Overpaid Superintendents on down......

We just "fired" our Superintendent....and he managed to walk a way with $450,000 in cash and a "Cadillac Escalade Platinum Edition" Healthcare Plan for him AND his family, through 2014.....

So, yeah...I hear ya itgranny

Granny

Bravo and may I add that we need to have a hot breakfast in the school systems.

The anchors at Fox work for the AFL-CIO with different letters because it is for broadcasters. Limbaugh too. They get to collective bargin so ask yourself why are they of all @!$%#in people screaming the shy is fallen. The unions are gonna breal this nations economy. it is true seek & find!

From the mouth of Tea Party hero Ronald Reagan

Address to the Nation About Christmas and the Situation in Poland

December 23, 1981

The men who rule them and their totalitarian allies fear the very freedom that the Polish people cherish. The Polish Government has trampled underfoot solemn commitments to the UN Charter and the Helsinki accords. It has even broken the Gdansk agreement of August 1980, by which the Polish Government recognized the basic right of its people to form free trade unions and to strike.

I am reposting for a third time...not spamming.

I don't believe in collapsing posts regardless of how disagreeable they might be, and it undermines others' voices from being heard.

The 20% Party of No and Bagger electorate in this country, have not begun to see the rage of the smart, sane, and rational 80%.

There is an International disgust of plutocratic oligarchies...even here in America.

bob5ford:

Bob your position is unsupported. The unions have said they will agree to ALL of the financial concessions the Governor wanted. What they will not agree to is a curb on collective bargaining. Try to keep you comments confined to what is being discussed rather than cloud the issue with things that are no longer in the debate.

Pat8 if you get a good education work your way thru collage - repay all you loans - why shouldnt you get a job that pays more than walmart. why should the rich get tax breaks and the public sector make up the short fall thru less pay and benefits ...isnt this a tax on the middle class

Obama was an "organizer" - or in other words - he would goud people into appearing enmasse to intimidate ... he cannot win in 2012 without the union vote -legal and illegals - a lot at stake here for the sob - a lot !! He cannot afford to let this bill pass -

Teacher Trish.....and Reagan knew the difference between Trade Unions and Government Employees Unions.....so did FDR.....Look it up teach.....

tigere go back under your rock

Elections have consequences.

This issue is not about cuting wages for the "middle class". This issue is about balancing the STATE BUDGET.

When Collective Bargaining Government Employee agreements are unfairly one sided, and government employees income and entitlements effect ALL TAXPAYERS ability to balance their personal budgets, along with the state not being able to balance their budget, then, trying to "save" your unfair wage, entitlement or like, will not garner support.

The majority of voters have spoken and their representatives have voted. The tantrum of a few, will not prevail.

Elections have consequences!

Regardless of your stand on unions, we have found out that it is not "about the children!" It is all about the money!

There's a reason that socialism and liberal economic policies don't work. The real world deals with the facts that there is not an infinite supply of money. If you don't have the money, you have to cut back. Socialism doesn't recognize this or the law of supply and demand. Socialism is all about forcing someone else to do what you want, rather than doing it yourself. Need proof? How many libs have donated money to Wisconsin to balance the budget and make sure that there are no layoffs or reduction in pay of the public employees? End of discussion.

First off, school lunches are expensive for those that pay for them because they are directly paying for the people who are getting the free lunches, which is a huge percentage. So if you want to complain about the price of school lunches you either have to quit feeding the poor kids or allocate funding to schools specifically for this reason.

Second I worked at the bureau of labor statistics, which measures inflation (consumer price index) and inflation adjusted wages. The ridiculous part of that measurement is that from 1970 to current day our houses have gotten much much larger and yet this is passed off as inflation causing inflation adjusted wages to go down. Truth is though the cost of the houses wasn't adjusted for the difference in size or standard of living changes. If you want to compare standards of living between now and 1970 look at the average size of someones house. Houses are larger and have less kids in them, so shouldn't even need as much room, I consider that an increase in standard of living that is passed off as inflation that causes inflation adjusted wages to go down.

Also this article is ridiculous in that it explicitly pits democrats and unions against repubs and big business. Last I heard we were talking about public employee unions, not private business unions.

This reminds me of Greece and the labor protests there. Protest away, if there's no money then there's no money. Would they rather have lost jobs? As to collective bargaining, this is public sector unions, they get their money from taxpayers. Go dig a little bit into the public sector unions, it ain't all 'civil rights' and 'freedom.'

What don't some of you idiots understand? It is not about money or balancing any budgets because the unions have already agreed to cutting salaries and pensions. The Governor wants to take away bargaining rights and that is nothing more then union busting! All of you, morons, that think a 40 hour week, paid holidays, paid vacations, sick leave, the family health act, or any worker benfits would exist without unions are seriously in need of a history class.

Brandon 801865...You can post your lies 1000 times...they will still be lies. All of the polls I am seeing are running 60-40 against the unions. Of course, you will continue to support your democrat FLEEbaggers, the Party of NO-SHOW. LOL!

@ AZhzhd

I'll give you 28% Conservative because that's the percentage that still supported Bush when his ratings were at an all time low. Who does the Gallup poll ask for opinions? People with home phones? Funny how I've gotten asked my political preference. It's also funny how the Conservatives grab onto a poll that supports their argument but dismiss one that doesn't. The true breakdown of the political makeup of the country is more like 1/3 for each group with independents controlling the elections with their swing vote and the news media influencing their opinion. That's why the right wing has put their resources into broadcasting their BS over the air waves with idiots like Beck and Limbaugh. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

All of you, morons, that think a 40 hour week, paid holidays, paid vacations, sick leave, the family health act, or any worker benfits would exist without unions are seriously in need of a history class.

Right on. If it wasn't for unions the non union workers would be lucky to be paid minimum wage. It's only to keep the unions from organizing that companies like Toyota and Honda pay a decent wage and benefits. When jobs were plentiful companies competed for workers but in today's economy it's COA or else someone else will be doing your job.

Has everyone forgotten that unions only represent 13% of workers?

Olias - your logic is really messed up. The tea party was formed to undo all the crap the Dems and Pubs have been up to all these years. They haven't even been there 2 months and already you're picking on them? Impatient, are you not? I don't think a few thousand in a city like New York (7 million) is any big gathering at all. Just anothe whip up the hysteria propaganda of the liberal press.

This really explains it all for me.

http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed-taxpayers-actually-contribute-nothing-to-public-employee-pensions/

I find it interesting the way the numbers are presented related to the rallies across the nation today. This article seems to indicate numbers in those few cases numbers are mentioned, that are about half those quoted by MoveOn.org.

"Madison police say 100,000 in Madison -- largest rally by far and police say barely any Tea Partiers" According to MoveOn.

http://www.moveon.org/wearewi/?id=26333-9253854-4pJSHqx&t=2

The numbers ranged from a few hundred to thousands. Here is another from MoveOn earlier today;

10:49

We're already getting reports from around the country. Folks are heading to Madison, WI, where it's 18 degrees and flurries.
Saturday February 26, 2011 10:49
10:50

And one of the rallies actually happened yesterday, in Trenton, NJ.
Saturday February 26, 2011 10:50
10:51

State Police estimated there were 3100 people there. Here's what it looked like on the ground.

For those decrying the protests today, PLEASE review all of the Tea Party rallies prior to and during the 2010 campaign and the inordinately strong and or loud interruptions by individuals, of the various "Town Hall meetings in which the individual or small group claimed relation to the Tea Party movement. Were these appropriate while what is being done now not?? What makes the difference??

Yet there seems to be very little coverage of these activities by the major news agencies.

21 states have "Right to work" laws on the books. Unions can and do exist in those states. They just can't compel all company employees to join their union. How about the fundamental right of an employee to join or not join a union??? Collective bargaining takes that away. If you want to work here, you MUST join our union. The unions don't want to give up their collective bargaining rights, but it's OK for them to take away employee's rights to join or not join. Yeah, they don't have to work there, but neither do the protesters. These sympathy protests are just a classic way of unions pushing their beliefs on the rest of the country. 88% of workers are non union. I believe that says it.

Fight on Wisconsin -

If Libyans can face cannon fire for their liberty then maybe Americans have awoken from the long national daydream of forty years. As George Bush, senior, said of Reagan economics that: “this is was all voodoo economics a fraud on the American people”. The American people in good faith have bought the phony goods being peddled by the Billionaire Limbaugh and soon to be Billionaire “Good as Gold” lunatic huckster Glen Beck. The Billionaire Brothers Koch all they represent (big energy) is anti middle class. This idiot Rick Santorum compares them (the protestors) to drug addicts? Lawful protestors are nothing but drug addicts how far off can a person be?

There is to much for me to go into here as I have only started to seriouly look at what this relationship of Walker and Koch Industries along with the powers attendent to this budget gives the governor and or a committee partly handpicked by Walker and other proxies of the Koch Industries entail. The most troubling at first glance is a handing over of the states power plants to Koch Industries (34 in total) and or their cronies and thus the power play is complete the unions are wiped out and the citizens are at the mercy of the benevolent Koch Bros. and all of their allies.

My understanding of the addendum to this bill gives new power to the legislature to outscource their own state power plants paid for with tax dollars to whomever. In other words, the state can decide to sell its power plants without any competitive bidding on the price whatsoever. It‘s just what the governor wants to do. I am trying to get the full budget proposal of Walkers; you try and see how easy it is not. Ok, I’ve done enough for today on this as I get back on the Vine from my hiatus after Olbermann quite not fired as some suggest. As I previously posted that when in private corporate America the office dynamics works like this: if I go and tell the boss to take the corner office desk and ram it up his hind quarters I have effectively quite no matter if the boss later proclaims I have been fired, that is my understanding of how it worked at every corporation I worked before going into business for myself and retiring at 57 years of age now living in Palm Springs and enjoying the good life.

Governor Walker didn‘t campaign saying he was going to get rid of collective bargaining, what happened to make this the focus of his first budget? Try and find the full transcripts of the private, so Walker thought of his conversation with David Koch much of the answers I believe are there. All I have are parts I have read from various sources. If this Walker had run on breaking up collective bargaining he would not have won the election but this was not what his campaign was based on but what he does he do right from the start? The unions have caved to the dollar demands, we now know this is not about a budget we now know what this is about. This is union busting and the negation of the workers right of collective bargaining. I have just started to work as a worker I now work but I do not work the necessary hours to join nor do I care to work the hours but if I did I would want a union. My total hours per week are 18, three days 6 hours per day.

This I only mention because I have taken on a part-time job of 18 hours a week of making shipping for all manner of valves and shipping them all over the world. I get to exercise for 16 hours a week and they even pay me for the much needed exercise. I laugh all the way to the bank, on my feet as much as possible, even though I have a chair and they even pay me, I am blessed. I will address this with the poster I have in mind when I see his post on the Vine. Some “common senz” lunatic blasted me for working a job of stacking shelves so he thought. His gibberish I will post his exact words next time.

A pattern of union busting, state legislative manipulation, no bid outsource of state energy resources, the material or resources changes as we go from state to state, timber, coal, gypsum, copper you name it the pattern has been going on for decades. The budget is a façade and fraud to hand over the states natural resources to third parties. The people of those third world countries have had it and it is high time the American people took back the country and made an America of the People and for the People lets hope it comes to pass. More to follow.

Good Night and Good Luck

Yes! Yes! I can see it all so clearly now! You liberal whiners are right! The Union workers should be able to make great wages and have benefits that are paid for by the "working poor" majority struggling to keep a roof over their heads and their children fed. Because union people are special Americans and they deserve all they can steel.

You're targeting the wrong folks! You need protections, too! As a teacher, the rights I protected were of students being forced into classrooms where -- because of the teacher's union -- we at least got a teacher's aide when class sizes were over 38. NOT that the class size was limited -- we just got an aide when the numbers were over 38. And how about having a book for each student in the class -- not that they could take home, but could at least look at!! And what about when that AP's "special friend" tried to force me to spend my person time to give a final test to a student who had only a 20%ile, who had walked out of the final angry that he knew so little because he had been absent over 50% of the time and would NOT come in for tutoring!! Every union can make mistakes -- which are extraordinarily well publicized compared to the norm for teachers who spend far more than 40 hours a week doing their jobs as well as money out of pocket to liven up a dull room, get an extra book case or table, add some special supplies for kids, or just paying for lunch for kids who forgot or whose family is going through rough times somehow. Don't fall for the anti-teacher union bias you hear -- it's just the first step in hitting ALL unions and political agrandisement when the real problem is all the "political" fixes for education that aren't about the basics of teaching and learning but ARE about trying to create a "rep" for "doing something."

Bluecollarblogger -

I don’t agree with your premise in the least, it is my understanding wage concessions were all agreed to by the unions (Wisconsin), they are not allowed to collect full pensions on any different terms than private sector workers (the public sector workers that is to say state workers). The list goes on if it is the same o same o than I am with you and not with them. I mean to say I agree with you 100%. But, not as per private sector workers, that has no impact on us, we do not pay them with our taxes.

What I would like to see is parity and a lowering of the retirement age to that of all the western industrialized nations. I am retired but I am not by my post in favor of many benefits of government workers paid by our tax dollars. That of non-government workers to unionize and strike for better working conditions and a favorable labor contract that is between the workers and the owners of the industries owners.

I suppose you do not hold it against someone for working in a union job that does pay well and offers a good retirement plan. That comes from the profit of the products they produce and that is not aimed at your expense nor have you suffered for that. I don’t see the connection with our plight and private union workers and their labor agreement with their employers. That money is from the profits from the corporation that did not come out of our pockets (taxpayers) or at our loss.

The government workers are a different lot and I have strong feeling that I assume are along the lines you posted. Have to leave for the night. If your industry had the right to strike and or bargain you may well be enjoying a higher standard of living if the legislatures where in bed, bought and paid for by big business you have been had, not by other union workers but by your own elected representatives. Have to leave please understand I have worked both sides of the fence which is to say union jobs and non-union.

Good Luck……………..

Persevere, I am retired also. I've worked union and non union and was an elected shop steward. There are some tyrannical employers in the country as well as some jerks as bosses. In due course, those things take care of themselves. The bosses don't last and the companies don't attract employees and end up going under. Simple stats. 11.9% nationwide are union, 7.9% in the private sector and 36.2 in the public sector. Unions are a dying breed. Some. but most, don't really know what "right to work" means, is, or does. Unions won't accept it as it means less members, less dues, and more unions gone. Stop and think. Who's paying for these protests? Are these protests a form of strike and/or work stoppage? Protest all 50 states, great, drag a zillion and two people into it that really have nothing to do with it?

I'll give you 28% Conservative because that's the percentage that still supported Bush when his ratings were at an all time low.

You'll give me 28%? Uh, okay. Whatever. I dont care man. It is what it is. And for the record, most conservatives didnt support Bush. because Bush was a Republican doesnt mean he was an all-out conservative. The man had alot of liberal in him with the Medicare expansion and a crack at amnesty for illegals.

All of this rob from the poor and give to the rich makes me want to puke. The thing I love is if you look at all of the conservative lawmakers supporting this they claim they are all Christian... Really? I have seen very few politicians on either side of the fence that are true Christians, especially these days.

"Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ." Galatians 6:2

Anyone else remember that rulebook that most of us were raised with. Those same rules that at one time were common sense?

I don't see how helping the Koch brothers who are already worth over $40 BILLION combined and giving corporations $140 million in tax breaks, then paying for them out of the pockets of teachers and crushing their ability to have a say in the matter as a very Christian thing to do.

Anyone ever remember Jesus or the apostles being greedy? Except maybe Judas. That didn't work out too well for him.

I see here so many people trying to put forth so many things not true about the reasons the WI lawmakers want to change some things in the dealing with unions and the rights of the citizens to be able to work at a job without union membership. This is about the right to work. The give backs and paying for healthcare, retirement, caddy bennies, and government suck jobs paid for by the tax payer is another issue.

Private companys and factories also has nothing to do with this issue.

The forcing of a citizen of the USA to belong to a union is wrong and the right to work should be part of the basic human rights of the USA.

I was forced to belong to a union several times in my working career. The union thugs when working for Western Electric as a tech in the 70s after 10 days there was met by 3 Mexican union thugs from the ware house, demanding 6 months dues to belong to their union. I refused to pay them. There were more warehouse people where I worked then any others. Under the liberal work laws of this time each company had to hire what was then called the hard core unemployed and uneducated by so many %. The warehouse was almost all Mexican with not much for english skills some I know were illegals and not citizens of the USA. All the minority of us techs were white American citizens. These were our shop stewards and our local union bosses. The next day there were 6 union thugs with baseball bats at my car ready to beat me and bust out my car windows if I did not join their union. I stalled them with English words most did not know as they spoke to each other in spanish untill The Denver police showed up who I had called earlier when I saw the union thugs in the parking lot close to my car. For several days was followed to try and find out where I lived. Always was able to lose them in the traffic. I went into the warehouse area and told their ring leader I know what he looks like and will come after him if he and his thugs do not leave me alone. I suffered flat tires, sugar in the gas tank and grease on my car windows. The union thug cars got returned everything they gave out to me in spades. After my 60 day trail period I let them take out union dues but I continued to fix the union thug cars till every one who had come after me was paid back. Cutting out 3 foot of wire from the rear their cars when they were at a shopping center was fast and easy to do.

This is a small window into unions and their thugs and how they take over the minority.

Have a wonderful day in The now progressive, socialist, fascist USA

I have to assume that everyone on here that is against unions are willing to return to when there were none..with no say over what you get paid..benefits for your labors..or for that matter anything else. Big business and wall street would have total control then as before..they even now control the bigger part of our elected through the lobbyist that they use to hand out millions to those in congress. This country today has lost thousands of jobs to other country's...and the other country's "cheap" labor..of course no one says that those other country's give few if any rights to its citizens...only the companies and the interested country's people in power make anything at all. And lets no forget that our elected have given huge tax breaks to those companies that left and took those jobs with them.

A lot of the issues being discussed here are not labor issues. Tax breaks for the rich? You need to talk to the the Feds/IRS about that. Unions etc. have nothing to do with that. Religious principles----no bearing here. Class warfare---union people aren't poor, no poorer than any other middle class people in the country. Class warfare. Do you figure unions will balance the scale between the haves and have nots? Why should union members pay less then the going rate that everyone else pays through collective bargaining?? If there was 1 tax rate for union members and another for everyone else. I'd bet we'd want that straightened quickly. Right to work is the way to go. Join if you want to. Don't if you don't. How much fairer can it be. You can have a union. You just can't make me join it. Also, you don't need the state to deduct union dues for you. With bill pay, you just plug it in.

Right to work is a direct assault on the working middle class.

The information shows poorer education, higher infant mortality, and higher poverty in Right To Work States.

We don't want that in our great State of Wisconsin.

The Unions have "collectively bargained" hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs to be moved off shore. Then they "collectively bargain to have illegal labor given the jobs that are left. They have "collectively bargained" that the common worker and tax payer bail out their failed companies. (See GM and Chrysler but don't buy one.) No one could believe that the Unions have the best interest of the American worker in mind considering the outcome of their initiatives. Unless - - - - they are just plain stupid.

bcb - BS

What a ridiculous argument. You know nothing about big business if you think the only reason our jobs went over-seas was because of collective bargaining agreements.

That's ludicrous.

Sounds like a non blue collar with a sneaky moniker. hmmmm?

Steve in iowa-2981981

"Bear one another's burdens, and thereby fulfill the law of Christ." Galatians 6:2

Just wondering, when do the Union members that are getting their benefits paid for by the private sector intend to start "bearing one another's burdens?" Maybe they haven't read Galatians. Maybe you should go forth and educate them, bear witness so to speak. I'm sure that they have just failed to realized that they are freeloading off of other hard working Americans and when you show them Galatians 6:2 they will repent and do their share. Right.

Get real!-

Get real.

Get real!

The information shows poorer education, higher infant mortality, and higher poverty in Right To Work States.

Give your sources for this "information" or as usual, it is just more misinformation.

Infant mortality

Wisconsin 6.34 per 1000

Infant mortality in some right to work states for comparison.

Arizona 6.69 per 1000

Idaho 6.12 per 1000

Iowa 5.40 per 1000

Nebraska 5.89 per 1000

Nevada 5.86 per 1000

North Dakota 6.35 per 1000

Texas 6.45 per 1000

Utah 4.92 per 1000

Wyoming 6.95 per 1000

Arguments for Right to Work

• Having right to work states speaks to an individual's constitutional right to freedom of association. Being made to join a union as a condition of employment means the individual is not making his or her choice freely.

• Right to work states tend to have lower unemployment rates than states that have not adopted this legislation.

• Right to work states have higher economic growth due to increased job creation.

Source: http://jobs.lovetoknow.com/Right_to_Work_States

This shoots down two of your assertions on right to work states.

Blue, choosing the best apples out of the barrel is a good way to shop, but not a good way to serve society.

Of, course you would ignore the fact that Wi. ranks #2 on test scores, (A.C.T., S.A.T.), compared to the nation and right to work are a majority of the bottom %. So, much for facts, as they can lead someone to where ever they want to go.

Higher economic growth, is such a vague term. Will it account for benefits and wages paid to workers, as part of the growth or is it not part of the analogy. Again, misleading.

"Tend" is not a proven analogy, so that one can be thrown out.

My contention is poverty levels are higher. You have shot nothing down at all.

Try Statehealthfacts dot org.

Don't got to websites with specific goals in mind.

Get real

Don't got to websites with specific goals in mind.

You mean like you? HA!

Bob

Blue, choosing the best apples out of the barrel is a good way to shop, but not a good way to serve society.

Of, course you would ignore the fact that Wi. ranks #2 on test scores, (A.C.T., S.A.T.), compared to the nation and right to work are a majority of the bottom %

Of course you would ignore the fact that Iowa, a right to work state, is #1

Like I say, no way to run a business, and comparing apples and oranges. May work for you but will not hold water in the courts. Do you "tend" your opinion when it comes to something you disagree on? The right-to work are the majority of the bottom, so where will your analogy get you?

The right to work states are the majority of the top at 60% of the top ten.

Source: http://www.ohe.state.mn.us/mPg.cfm?pageID=1439

Of the 6 lowest scores, 50% are from right to work states.

Source:

http://www.act.org/news/data/10/states.html?utm_campaign=cccr10&utm_source=data&utm_medium=web

Of course you would only include half of the test standards. Where are the results for the S.A.T.. By the way the S.A.T. scores are more important to major university's, many will not accept only a A.C.T. score, but many will accept a S.A.T. score only.

Again where will your analogy get you. You sound like you are jealous of those in a union. Perhaps if you had the same attitude to conservatives, and business we could solve some of our problems.

It's awesome, Bob. All this is going on and my Son got his ACT test scores in the mail yesterday.

Composite score of 28.

I guess this Wisconsin education is doing ok.

BTW, One of his friends got a 32.

They are juniors in high school.

Wow, they both beat the heck out of my 25. I did get a 31 in some sorta social study's, back in 68'.

Keep up the good work, be proud, and live life.

by the way, I know from others that college is expensive these days. My daughter graduated from Governors State U. back in 2008, and she worked for PierOne. She worked enough hours, I believe it was 30 a week, and at that time qualified for a reimbursement of some tuition. It helped us . Sounds like a lame job for a guy, but because of the economy and her lack of a graduate degree, she returned to them and is assistant manager, making a decent buck. She is a hard worker too boot.

See ya surfing. Later.

Ido: Nice try, everyone already has a pretty good idea what the libertarian agenda is. No links needed.

Pat: Nice try; divert attention from the real issue of worker rights. No, not everyone has equal union backing. That's because American's are too short sighted to ALL unite behind someone.

Tony: not bad, but there are really 2 levels to this. The Koch brothers level is simple: unions=bad for the bottom line. An ape can figure that out. There is another level though, and that is the average middle-lower class republican. To that, I can only paraphrase a Fish Called Wanda: "A republican doesn't read philosophy! Wanda: Wrong, they do. They just don't understand it."

The WI Govt just wants union members to be EQUAL to private employees, not better. Why do they get better retirement and health ins than private workers? Aren't private employees at least as good as union employees? I think so.

Why do teachers get tenure and automatic raises when private workers get pay for performance and there is no "for sure" employment?

Um. . . Because they're unionized and that's what unions are there for. If you were smart, you'd be looking at one of those union jobs. And teachers get tenure and automatic raises because they deserve it more than any other profession I can think of. They put up with things no other career has to. You couldn't afford to pay them what they're worth. What we do pay them is a mere pittance. Frankly, I'm tired of everyone dogging on teachers because they think they have it so easy and the pay is so great. If that were the case, the market would be flooded with people with their teaching certificates, just clamoring to get one of those "great paying, easy" jobs. And that, my friend, is most certainly not the case.

Nice try, everyone already has a pretty good idea what the libertarian agenda is. No links needed.

I hope everyone realizes our country will look like Somalia if we end up following a libertarian agenda.

Cavalier-416769.....

I am not a Libertarain. If you have read my previous posts, you should be able to figure out which side of the fence I am on.

Cavalier–adjective: 5. haughty, disdainful, or supercilious: an arrogant and cavalier attitude toward others.

Great handle which supplements your comments.

Ok Cavalier:

Why don't you tell us exactly which "workers rights" you're trying to defend? The "right" to free healthcare? The "right" to not have to contribute to your pension? Are those the rights you're talking about??

Try contributing to the discussion, rather than merely criticizing everyone else's opinion.

The Koch brothers do spend millions of dollars funding many front groups and special interest groups such as the:

Cato Institute, Americans for Prosperity, and Reason Foundation.

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/opinion-zone/2011/02/political-philanthropy-koch-brothers-soros#ixzz1F6bPpc8D

Many of these orginizations are unfortunately falsely fingering the Police officers and firefighters and school teacher's pension plans for causing the huge budgetary deficits we are experiencing. They say that these pension plans are bankrupting our country and that America can no longer compete financially in the international market. These groups also say that America is simply taxed too much and that we have far too many regulations in place that make our country an unprofitable place to do business in. They stress that it is very important to continue to give tax breaks to the billionaires in America since they are responsible for creating all the jobs that are trickling down on all of us because of their generosity. These groups and their spoke people are nothing more than Social Darwinist's who tell us that the wealthiest people should be rewarded for their way of life since they are living the American dream and that its the Unions in America and their middle class Unionized workers who are trying to bring down the economy of our great country. They continue to encourage the wealthiest Americans that they can become even more wealthy by out sourcing the manufacturing jobs left in America to China. They keep telling us that America is simply too regulated and costly of a place to do business in and that by out sourcing your labor costs that you can make even more of a profit since the Chinese will work for less and that it's the American workers who are simply too greedy and want ridiculous amount of money for working and that they are the cause of our economic down turn. "Say it isn't so" just look at Germany for example on how they are trying working with their industries to promote well paying employment for the German people. America needs to promote job Growth and we need to become proud of our American workers. It was these very workers who made America what it is today. Outsource away all the jobs and what are we to do? I feel that we need to find Win/Win ways for our remaining industries to continue to employ people here in the USA since our very workers are also the biggest consumers here in our country and a large and strong middle class is what made America Great.

Ah, where are the links discussing Union tentacles to the White House which advocates "Democracy", "Freedom", "Unions Unite", "Power to the people", "Social Justice", "Moral Obligation", "Collective Salvation", etc.

Nah, all I have to do is go to Mr. Obama's web site "Organizing for America" to get those answers and some talking points to spew on social media sites.

Organizing for America is composed of 50 different state organizations, united by a single national umbrella.

Tony, you are quite correct - they want to return to the 19th Century where the Robber Barons of those days could do whatever the hell they wanted, like import workers from Ireland and China and not give a damn when they died, or fill factories with 8 YO kids working 18 hour days. How long until Walker tries using the WI National Guard or State Troopers to do what Carnegie did using Pinkerton men to attack striking workers, only this time it is peaceful people enjoying their First Amendment Rights of Freedom to Assemble, Free Speech and to Petition the Government for Redress of wrongs. He made damn sure that the twin bother's who run the WI House and Senate (yes the Speaker of the WI House and the Majority Leader of the WI Senate are brothers) will keep backing him by appointing their Dad as the head of the State Troopers.

Walker is a man w/o shame or morals, and thanks to his stupidity, we now know what the GOP Agenda really is, care of the Koch Brothers. Since it is unlikely Walker will be impeached, even though he spoke about a number of issues that at the least border on criminal acts, WI can recall him next January. Now if we could all do the same with every idiot in Washington, Dem or GOP, we could put into office people who actually look out for the Middle Class and not just claim to be doing so. This country could use a little Socialism. If that scares you, BTW, better go grab a dictionary and find out what the word really means - because if you are Christian, you are supposed to be a Socialist.

Perhaps the actions of the braindead Rightwingteabaggers will be the message this Country needs to never vote for a Republican in any disguise again. They are dispicable imps doing the rich mans dirty work.. One term for these sick brainwashed nothings.

@GustoGuy

Thanks for posting.

The right wing extremists and the libertarian wannabes on here will undoubtably ignore the facts or come up with excuses as to why we shouldn't believe what you posted.

Just because you say it Tony, DOES NOT make it a fact. Why do you think factories are moving to other countries, like Mexico? Maybe for cheaper labor? So using your theory, its better to lose your job entirely rather then take a little less, keep the factories in the USA. Well that is the Democrat talking in you. Democrats have always said they want to redistribute the wealth. Make everyone equal. Well you know what, everyone isn't equal. Some refuse to get a job, they live on government handouts, Welfare, subsidies, unemployment. Get rid of those and America becomes a little better.

colelee

Just because you say it Tony, DOES NOT make it a fact. Why do you think factories are moving to other countries, like Mexico? Maybe for cheaper labor? So using your theory, its better to lose your job entirely rather then take a little less, keep the factories in the USA. Well that is the Democrat talking in you. Democrats have always said they want to redistribute the wealth. Make everyone equal. Well you know what, everyone isn't equal. Some refuse to get a job, they live on government handouts, Welfare, subsidies, unemployment. Get rid of those and America becomes a little better.

A little less??? Are you for real?? You are in fantasy land! We want a living wage and increased (not diminished) standard of living for ALL Americans who work, not just the chosen few. Right now the standard of living and quality of life for average working people is slipping backwards. How is that good for America? It's not! It may benefit 3rd world countries to have America's standard of living reduced, but it sure isn't good for America.

Remember you can't raise some other countries standard of living without lowering your own. We are outsourcing our future with this mentality being adopted by the multinational corporations "Get rid of the mindless factory jobs and give them to the hard working frugal Chinese people and make even a better profit on top of it all". Its like cutting off your nose to spite your face. America is starting to become a has been and we are selling our debt out to the Chinese who are buying it up since they now have us by the throats. It's just like the Super Bowel commercial parody with the Chinese University Professor who said to the delight of his students "Now we own them"

to Gustoguy, I read your post and it reminded me of an article I read about the problems they are having all over the world. It claimed that the youth of the world is too educated, that by having too many diploma-ed people there aren't enough jobs for all the youth in the market today. It also claimed that china has a shortage in workforce. NOTE.. a shortage. Big Corporations definitely want our people to earn a lesser wage and for them to not have to offer any benefits. They need our people to work but want it at wages paid in china.

If that were the case, the market would be flooded with people with their teaching certificates, just clamoring to get one of those "great paying, easy" jobs. And that, my friend, is most certainly not the case.

It is. I know lots of people who can't get teaching jobs. I know lots of people who abandoned the profession because there wasn't any opportunity for them. They couldn't get their foot in the door. Teachers don't put up with as much as nurses or even the kid at the register of the fast food chain who has to deal with every angry customer. Also, these people chose to be teachers knowing what was involved before they started. They should be smart enough to negotiate a wage on their own based on merit rather than need someone to hold their hand for them.

China has a shortage of skilled labor only. Multinational companies want to outsource even more skilled jobs to China and many of the Chinese people who are coming in from the mostly agricultural areas of China are not skilled enough yet for these jobs. Give them another 5 or so years to ramp up their education system for the higher tech jobs and soon the Chinese will be making all our automobiles and commercial airplanes and other high-tech heavy equipment manufactures such as General Electric and Catapiller will be forced to outsource. Forget about Boeing and Intel too since they (The Chinese) will own us soon if we don't stop the economic hemorrhaging of our countries skilled work force being sold off all for lower wages.

monx3 said: Um. . . Because they're unionized and that's what unions are there for. If you were smart, you'd be looking at one of those union jobs.

What happens when everyone is unionized and working for the Government? The money has to come from somewhere. Governments don't make any goods to sell. They only collect taxes and there is not eough taxes to go around anymore. In Wisconsin, there are more Government employees since 2009 than there are non government employees. When is the money going to run out? I think it has now that we have a US $3.6 BILLION deficit.

Bob : Reading your ridiculous post made me grit my teeth at your ignorance.

Do you realize that 95% of the people who vote republican aren't rich, but are so same working class Americans that you possibly are? Have you ever asked or even wondered "What are their issues and why do they vote the way they do"? Oh sure, It's easy to simply write it off as "they're just ignorant". and that "you" have some special insight. The reality is, that's likely not the case, but that they have issues different from yours... that they feel the Democratic party doesn't address.

Here's one of many : I work as a direct Sales Representative to small business owners (Mom & pop's restaurants). These people for years have watched their license, fees, taxes increase far beyond the rate of inflation because to them, they have become a revenue stream to Govt. and a group who just excepts it and doesn't have the juice to fight back. They see the dramatic negative effect Govt. policy has on the ability to operate their business. Every time Govt. needs to raise money to cover deficits, these people recognize they will have to cough up more. These people contribute more to the public coffers than the Ave. American (Including union employees) and what do they get for it? They watch as they pay taxes but don't get to retire @ 58 or 62 or whatever age with 75% of their salary and lifetime health benefits. Here in Nevada, former Gov. Kenny Guinn made this exact point when he said, "Why is it fair that a Govt. employee gets these incredible benefits, yet your local restaurant owner who likely contributes more into the system doesn't", "Where is the economic justice in that"? He made the exact same argument I've been making for years before that statement.

So you see, there are people out there that have legitimate complaints. They don't want their fellow Americans hurt (Union workers). They just want them to walk in their shoes for a minute and say "You have a point, We both need to address each others issues and find a fair economic balance".

How I see it...The Republicans winn half the elections (and currently have been successful around the country) because there are millions of working class citizens voting for them that have issues the Democrats in my opinion don't seem to address, and that for some reason, you have not seem to have considered.

The Europeans are getting it, they aren't looking to 'spend more to save more' and are tightening their belts. And look what the unions are doing over there...why...they're protesting and making demands. Just like here. Isn't that nice. As to standards of living, why do public sector unions have a better standard of living? Yes, they're teachers and have gone to school. Does that mean that lousy teachers get protected by the unions? The cry is 'it's all for the children' so does that mean that Wisconsin kids are far better educated as a result of unions?

Unions have outlived their usefulness and are now nothing more than a legal mafia cartel for profit. They do nothing but pit workers against employees until the business goes away. Boeing is thinking of leaving the liberal Seattle area and so is Harley Davidson. I worked for a union (IBEW) for 15 years and all they did was take the dues and when that wasn't enough, they started assessing us one day's pay per year. I now have a non union job I love and make a fair wage with the opportunity to travel the world and make more than the ones that are still in that crappy union environment.

Crystal: If that were true, that unions had 'outlived their usefullness" you wouldn't be seeing the kind of reaction around the country you are now seeing to this attempt to break them--(including if you noticed, the "no thanks, I'm not joining in Walker's fight" reaction by other Republican governors. Unions may indeed be a small percentage of workers (18%) but they're a very important 18%, since they include many of the 30% of this nation's college graduates and many of the dwindling number of jobs with any benefits to them at all, including retirement benefits. You simply don't understand the US economy if you think an educated workforce is irrelevant to economic growth or irrelevant to the country as a whole. The fact you found a NON-union job you prefer is hardly proof of anything.

It appears that the unions have a program set up to make sure that only pro-union comments are allowed on this site, and any not in agreement are deleted or 'collapsed'.

So much for 'freedom of expression'.

Sounds a lot like FauxNews, where you can not even print MSNBC, with out the moderator bumping you.

Darryn, let me ask you if it is not to personal. Have your prices effected the Mom & Pop business, as there business declines for lack of customers? Do the customers not come in now because of the added tax your customers pay, or is it that we are in a recession?

Don't blame the government for all, unless you want them to be a means to a solution, not just cut now. Can your customers demand the same thing you want from government with out you feeling wronged? Be real in your assumptions. Government is people, not a bureacracy or haven for those who don't want or want to much.

That's not true. Many unions force you to be a member of the union in order to get or keep a job. It is not the employees choice. Now you might say that an employee has a choice to have or not have that job...is that the civil rights you talk about?

El pobre

That's not true. Many unions force you to be a member of the union in order to get or keep a job. It is not the employees choice. Now you might say that an employee has a choice to have or not have that job...is that the civil rights you talk about?

The workers at a Unionized place of business formed the Union. The workers (not just their Union bosses) called for new workers to become a member of the Union as a way to keep employers (public or private) from breaking or weakening the Union. Why should new employees avoid their responsibilities to the rest of the workplace? Do you think it's right for new employees to undermine the working conditions and contract agreements made by those workers that earned them? I don't. I'm not in a Union, but I support their existance.

Hey Elpobre, Apparently you have never worked at a Unionized business and someone lied to you. I have worked at them and had a choice at both places. When I was hired, I was ask if joining the Union was a plan after 90 days of employment? My decision was to wait and see. At these places they noted with prior Supervisor's experienceI would be placed in their Supervisor's training program and would not be allowed to be a Union Member. Later I found the employees were about 50/50 members and non members. No one was forced to join.

Bob Hall, you must live in a right to work state. That is exactly what Wisconsin is trying to do.

I have worked at a Unionized business and was not given the choice to join. In education you will be a member of the union whether you want to or not. The only way out was to get into administration.

FALSE, go back to library and read some more before posting such blatantly false statements. It all depends on where you live. I am a teacher and presently am not in the union, but have been in the past. My choice in my state.

The issue is not private unions. It is over public unions. This is not the same. There is no real collective bargaining when dealing with the government. The private company can close or move. Or they can increase the cost of their product to pay for the union demands.

A government does not make a product, they cannot close, they cannot move. That is not collective bargaining, it is blackmail.

I am all for a movement to set up a fair pay system for government workers, one based on inflation, that way, if taxes are more, the employees get more, if not, they don't. Just like the private sector. This would also give the government employees incentive to keep costs down.

I would also suggest a 401K program with a set input by the government and increases if taxes were more than expenditures.

This is not about private unions, it is about public employees. Why is it that the majority of States do not allow unions in the government jobs? Why are the unions not protesting in these states?

A government does not make a product, they cannot close, they cannot move. That is not collective bargaining, it is blackmail.

I am all for a movement to set up a fair pay system for government workers, one based on inflation, that way, if taxes are more, the employees get more, if not, they don't. Just like the private sector. This would also give the government employees incentive to keep costs down.

I would also suggest a 401K program with a set input by the government and increases if taxes were more than expenditures.

mdionne What makes it right for the unions to hold those jobs hostage ? Demanding the ransom of joining the union to hold the job. A job should be open to anyone qualified , the choice to join the union should be up to the individual.

amazing how many people are so ill-informed as to think collective bargaining is a "right" and yet while proclaiming it is, deny others their 1st Amendment rights by collapsing their comments.

Where's all that civility the Left's president called for?

RetREMF, it seems that you are also ill-informed, collective bargaining is only a right when there is a bargaining unit such as a union. The employer and the union is obligated by law to bargain in good faith.

"The WI Govt just wants union members to be EQUAL to private employees, not better. Why do they get better retirement and health ins than private workers? Aren't private employees at least as good as union employees? I think so.

Why do teachers get tenure and automatic raises when private workers get pay for performance and there is no "for sure" employment?"

That's got to be one of the most communist sounding statements I've heard in a long time.

I've worked as a private non union employee and a public union employee. There are trade offs in either scenario. Non union jobs have a flexibility that union jobs don't. Union jobs do not necessarily pay better and the benefits aren't always better either. Union jobs offer more job security though. At a union job HR isn't going to show up 6 months before your retirement date and lay you off like they can in the private sector (I've seen it happen a LOT) and in a union job you aren't going to miss out on a raise because the boss is jealous you're dating the receptionist or something equally dumb and personal. But at a union job you might be the hardest working person in the office and get laid off if you don't have enough seniority (seen a lot of that too).

In short, I don't care where you work there's going to be unfairness and stupidity in some form. Union or no union.

Bob,

I actually work at a place where everyone is required to belong to the union. I am in fact a member of that union. If I were to choose to quit the union for whatever reason, than my employer (that's the one that makes the profit to pay me for my labor) is compelled by the contract to take steps to terminate my employment.

My problem with this, is that I no longer have the right to let my money do the talking. Our national union has done a number of things of which I personally disagree with and do not support (on a number of levels). They don't really care about what I think, but they certainly care about my money. So where is my choice to belong to the union or not.

I'm not about making more money than my co-workers. I would gladly donate my "union dues" to a worthwhile charity. I would just like the freedom to do so.

Tony - "They support the wealthy who are shipping all our jobs out of this country and holding the middle class hostage."

You have a nice imagination Tony. The middle class is being "held hostage" by the ridiculous union wages and pensions that are not earned from business profits but rather are collected from the taxpayers earnings. As for those jobs being "shipped out of the country" seeking cheaper labor is the primary reason, again a direct consequence of the greed of the unions.

I have a problem with public sector unions,,,,,,,,not private sector so much......you all forget where the money comes from to your salaries.

Graff, you show your ignorance, a teat is the correct term for what gives you milk from a cow. Google it.

TONYWARVET....Wow, you are on a rampage today. You need to settle down after your do some research and get rid of those cob webs.

"They [Rightwing people] support the wealthy who are shipping all our jobs out of this country"

When has the last time you did some search on which companies have been responsible for the most of the outsourcing ??

Here are TWO EXAMPLES (both Union, White House, and taxpayer funding related):

1. Government Motors (GM).......Spent approx $ 4,100,000,0000 in the last 4 years upgrading their Mexican plants and intend on spending about $400,000,000 on one of the plants to build a new, un-named, electric vehicle saving about 1,000 Mexican jobs while their plants in the U.S. remain idle or completely shut down. So, when is GM going to repay the taxpayers their bailout since their recent IPO mainly helped UNIONS keep their benefits ? Better check your vehicle and see where the vehicle was manufactured.

2. Government Electric (GE).....Mr. Obama just appointed the GE CEOGE CEO Jeffrey Immelt as the head of a Council on Jobs and Competitiveness (Jobs CZAR) when Mr. Immelt paved the way and led U.S. businesses in outsourcing jobs, especially to India. Better check your GE appliances and see where they are made.

• http://americangrandjury.org/obama-names-ge-ceo-jeffrey-immelt-as-another-usurper-czar

It is high time that someone on the beltway DIRECTLY confronted Mr. Obama on his "special interest" relationship with the AFL-CIO and why Mr. Obama has been directing taxpayer money to Union businesses, but will not meet with his Congressional approved Cabinet members:

• http://www.allamericanblogger.com/14247/union-leader-talks-to-white-house-every-day-cabinet-leaders-not-so-much/

GM profits of 4.2 Billion - not too bad a return on OUR investment.

They are too dumb to get a better job,pass a state or government teat to get a union job.

I'm thinking your use of the word "teat" is perfectly accurate. That is what these unions do. They live off the public "teat" and never really have to live in a competitive world. Then they want to be rewarded for their "hard work". Has anyone ever met a State or Federal worker who worked hard? To hell with them. Let them deal with a little strife for a change.

Ido:

Quit making so much sense. It's difficult for those who don't have a clue to follow along lol :)

Anthony-1078253......"They live off the public "teat" and never really have to live in a competitive world. Then they want to be rewarded for their "hard work"."

Oh, you mean the unions "hard work" which was followed by their "play hard" "Summer Breaks" Chrysler employees were having after they received a taxpayer bailout and were busted by the media ?

• http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/09/detroit-tv-station-catches-chrysler-workers-drinking-drugging-during-lunch/1

Are you serious? "Pass a teat"... "theyre too dum"...?

Well talk about the pot and kettle! I was a government employee in the state of delaware and I never took any friggin 'Teat" or test for that matter you ding-dong. I was forced to become a member of AFSCME. I was told by the director that this was a "Closed Shop" exact words... so what type of "Choice" is that? You want to work in civil service and the pay is set but I was railroaded into the union and they just took my money right out of my pay for their dues and their "political action" fees etc...

So DO NOT Hand me your Union Bull Sh*t! The unions are there nowadays to protect the incompetent and lazy for the most part. If you ask a good hard working member of the union and they could work without being a member and then other workers were held accountable they would do it. BUT that is NOT the way it is.... Unions have outlived their purpose and are either over indulged labor management operations that gouge the members and employers or they protect incompetents at the expense of taxpayers and society at large... And they are accountabloe to no one!

Your arrogance is a reason why WalMart employees no longer want to sacrifice to keep your sorry derrierre in style.

Get a life, parasite.

Is teat anything like test you moron? I can tell you're union you dumb ass.

They aren't talking about private sector union jobs - it's the public sector and civil service should not have the same privileges that real union workers earned years ago.

Really? The way I see it the union members are too stupid to negotiate their own deals based on their ability to perform a skill at a high level so they pay money to organized crooks to do it for them. The Gravy train is stopping. It's about time. Join the rest of us.

What is the largest contributor to Democratic pac's? OH, yes, unions. Guess that's why Obama is so tight with Trumka, SEIU and why they get some real neat legislation waivers. Look at the protesters, Unions, communist and socialist organizations. Most interesting.

oh no...we're back to calling union members "communists"?? You must be a very old "girl" to be pulling that one...

Wanda "I have a problem with public sector unions,,,,,,,,not private sector so much......you all forget where the money comes from to your salaries."

And public sector salaries are ALSO paid by tax payers who buy the company's product or services. And incidentally, public employees, pay ALL the same taxes you do - so you can be pretty sure they're aware of where taxes are going just like you do.

AP: And you must be exceptionally young or ill-informed to not know about unions and communist party affiliations. Trumka recently allowed communist members into the union, they had been denied membership prior to that. Go do a little research and then go do a little research on the allegiances of the current protesters in Wisconsin. Do that and then get back with me.

Excuse me for supporting the person who called the unions "communist" because that's in fact what they are! Have you ever been to a large union meeting? I have with my father and grandfather who were UAW members and I can tell you they both walked out of the meetings with mixed feelings about their union leadership and they both said that the leaders were in fact Communists! So please get smart or get out of the way...

Apparently you don't know a whole lot about communism, girl and K.

Yes, unions as a whole accept all participants, no matter what their political affiliation. To demigod them for that is repulsive, and un-American. Many union members vote conservative, yet they feel it is not a contradiction to their ability to bargain as a group. Business, can do the same, as they are a legal entity in this country.

Getreal: enlighten us, please

"apparently" you cant read buddy. I did not say I knew anything about communism (although I am sure I know enough) I said I attend UAW meetings with my father and grandfather who both said the Union leadership were communist... in fact many admitted members of the communist party. So your inept attempt to derail my views is sad.

Kyot, apparently you can't read,love.

what a come back... !

Beats having your father and grandmother repeat Joe McCarthy's credo, The only good commie is a dead commie.

Give us a break, "in fact", will not cut it with me brother, with your accusations. If you are so positive about your political and social values, why can't you stay on subject, like most literate people do, for the better part of your discussion. I have been watching you and others(Don't get paranoid) and can not understand how your type think rebuttal or debate is positive when you change subject often, as your defence of your ideas. Sounds more like a cat fight to me.

Why would I respond to gibberish? And my "type" as you so idiotically pose, is as a true American that's mostly self sufficient and productive. You're actually the epitome of what's wrong with America today. You expect the government to be the answer to everything and in fact this government is glaringly incompetent. I'm not singling out the US Government ... Government in general is incompetent and corrupt. So why would we the people expect elected officials to be "more" than the government they are supposed to be administrating over. People of my "type" and that would mean intelligent people, do not have such unreasonable expectations. BUT we do need to keep the government in it's place and in fact prevent microcosmic communist parties in the form of public sector unions from swaying our democracy in the wrong direction.

But BOB, much of what I say will not be understood by you. You and others with the "Us against the wealthy" mentality only hear what you want to hear... so this time spent in rebuttal to your pathetic gibberish is for those that have some sense and actually enough of an open mind to consider what I say in context that unless we take action, the public sector unions and our very government itself will implode and hurt everyone.

You read way to much "between the lines" for me.

Oh Kyot,

Pray tell, what exactly is a "TRUE AMERICAN?"

I'd settle for a truthful American.

How about an American who actually read the bill that is being introduced? I'd settle for that too!

What's "wrong with America today" is the fact there are people like you who seem to think that your opinion is fact.

READ THE BILL and use your abundant intellect to focus on the issues at hand instead of propping up another BS straw man non issue like Communism!

Your posts are pathetic at best!

I truly doubt that. I think the majority of Wisconsin's citizens are behind Walker and a balanced budget. That's why he won the election.

Yeah, the voters voted and unions lost. Again.

According to polls that have been done this week, in Wisconsin, the majority of those polled, favor the unions, not the Gov. Just and FYI. 62% for unions 29% for Gov. 9% undecided

Polls mean squat and you know it. Voting and who wins them does. Unions lose. Again.

May 1933 Hitler abolishes Unions

I think the majority of Wisconsin's citizens are behind Walker and a balanced budget. That's why he won the election.

Actually only 26% of the eligible voters in Wisconsin cast votes for Walker. I would say it is a very far stretch to think the majority of people in this state support him right now.

Hitler also abolished gun ownership didn't he? What other political party wants to eliminate personal gun ownership? My point is, that's a lousy comparison because the two situations are not really related. And I hate to say this, but even a maggot like Hitler is no reason to distort history. He saved the German economy in the 30's. (Only to destroy it with the war again, however.) And no, I don't condone Hitler or his sick Nazi party in any way.

I was a government employee in the state of delaware and I never took any friggin 'Teat" or test for that matter you ding-dong. I was forced to become a member of AFSCME. I was told by the director that this was a "Closed Shop" exact words... so what type of "Choice" is that? You want to work in civil service and the pay is set but I was railroaded into the union and they just took my money right out of my pay for their dues and their "political action" fees etc...

So DO NOT Hand me your Union Bull Sh*t! The unions are there nowadays to protect the incompetent and lazy for the most part. If you ask a good hard working member of the union and they could work without being a member and then other workers were held accountable they would do it. BUT that is NOT the way it is.... Unions have outlived their purpose and are either over indulged labor management operations that gouge the members and employers or they protect incompetents at the expense of taxpayers and society at large... And they are accountable to no one!

Tony is just another loudmouth union type who couldn't get a job UNLESS it was union. No ability to sell his skills as an individual, he needs others to help him along.

According to the Examiner: (quoting a Gallup Poll)

It turns out that the only income group among those polled by Gallup that favors the governor's proposal to roll back public employee bargaining rights are those who make over $90,000.

The median average in the United States is around $50,000. The average salary for a Wisconsin public school teacher is around $48,000.

Continue reading on Examiner.com: Polling data: Income levels may be the true divide in Wisconsin labor dispute - National populist | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/populist-in-national/polling-data-income-levels-may-be-the-true-divide-wisconsin-labor-dispute#ixzz1F7sfIG1O

Tonywarvet, it is the state employee Unions who have been breaking the state budgets of this country, education has taken a dive over the past 3 to 4 decades, and these public employees have proven time and time again they aren't worth the money they are being paid. Just using this as an example, why do private school and home schooled students do so much better than public school students? It is because they are being educated by people who are really interested in teaching those children rather than their paychecks and retirement funds. Me for one, I wouldn't take a union job if my life depended on it, and I do make pretty good money, so don't even go there, and I do have a college education.

Minan59....."Actually only 26% of the eligible voters in Wisconsin cast votes for Walker"

Walker won by the same percentage as Obama did....53-46...so one is a landslide and one is marginal ??? Obama only won with 32.9% of eligible voters.....so what's your point ???

ahhh - wrong! Repubs won in a slaughter last election!

interesting that liberals use the slim margin Obama won on as a reason to undermine Walker in wisconsin... it only demonstrates the lack of substance and wafer-thin argument .... pathetic really...

One side being wafer-thin, mirrors the other side as most elections are decided by small % differances. It is the ability of the politicaians to get their base out to vote, that determines elections, as a majority of all, rarely vote.

Perhaps so perhaps not so.... but the fact is the overwhelming majority of legislators in wisconsin are republicans as elected by the people ... so what does that say?

It says we were voting on issues like High-Speed Rail instead of Republican vs. Democrat. If you lived here, you'd know how the recent election was handled.

If you've been paying attention, you'd know how much money Koch Industries pumped into our Great State of Wisconsin to overwhelm and propagandize the campaigns.

Our last election was full of more BS than a cheese-eating bull.

Are you asking PMSNBC/Comcast ??....And it's even a slow news day....no big bombings, no celebrity died....go figure.....It's because the rest of America is sick and tired of watching it....they do their snap ratings....Had legs for about a week....not so much anymore.

Besides all the people that might be watching this....are at these Ginned up rallies.

It's attempt to paint them as the "underdog", "everyman", type of individual to gain a sense of sympathy. MSNBC is notorious for it when it agrees with their politics. There are other media outlets that are not near as biased and most Americans know spoiled, greedy, whining, losers when they see them and these "protesters" and the Dems who fled their jobs are shining examples of all that is disgusting in U.S. politics.

Maybe they should all band together then and form their own union. No one is stopping them.

momx - Are you serious???

How would ranchers and farmers have a union? THEY ARE NOT EMPLOYEES.

The Governor is sticking up for them now.

Funny how everyone talks about the poor teachers (who are little more than glorified day care responsible for a second rate education) but business owners who make the money that pays the teachers salaries are treated like cattle.

Maybe those poor public workers should get a job in the private sector or start a business -then they'd really have something to complain about.

Tired of paying your salary bums. Screw the banks too.

ranchers and farmers already have a union, it is called a co-op or 'grange' committee. Their sole purpose is to perform like a union for them to provide equal compensation for equal product.

Ranchers and farmers sell a product with a price that is kept artificially high by acts of government.

Prices for many commodities, such as milk are price controlled, and not to make them more affordable for consumers, but to make more money for the ranchers and farmers (theoretically, anyway - in practice most of this is a handout to large agribusiness conglomerates). Perhaps if we allowed those noble 'free market' strategies to allow the price of a gallon of milk to lose the extra couple dollars imposed by price controls, then the state workers wouldn't need so much of your precious tax dollars to earn a livable wage.

You know what if these poor public workers had jobs in the private sector they would make more money then they do know. As for why do we refer to ourselves as "the working people?" Because the $34,000 a year for teaching sure doesn't make us rich.

No, but you'll be the object of hate and scorn as long as you HAVE a job with BENEFITS and they don't. MUST mean you simply don't work as hard.

At my mom's school in a rural area most of the teachers' children qualify for free lunches...most of them certainly aren't rolling in dough.

And for anyone that is going to criticize teachers for lousy educations or say they CHOSE to be a teacher I say to you: You chose to work instead of home school your own children. If you think you can do a better job, get to it. Otherwise shut your mouth and enjoy the free "daycare".

80 year old woman- give me a break.... what did I pay to either NOT have your farmers "farm" or what did I pay (as a taxpayer) to subsidize them? And why is the price of milk "fixed"? Can't your dairy farmer earn a living without me (the taxpayer) having to SUPPORT his living? Thank you.

john j-3106907...."Hitler abolished labor unions"...sort of..

They all had to join

The National Socialist German Workers' Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (help·info), abbreviated NSDAP), commonly known in English as the Nazi Party (from the German Nazi, abbreviated from the pronunciation of Nationalsozialist^[5]), was a political party in Germany between 1919 and 1945. It was known as the German Workers' Party (DAP) prior to a change of name in 1920."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_German_Workers_Party

Everyone was happy, they were all working for Hitler.....I wonder if they had Collective bargaining ???

Join Or die....some Union !!!

But,......Certain nominally independent organizations had their own legal representation and own property, but were supported by the Nazi Party. Many of these associated organizations were labor unions of various professions. Some were older organizations that were nazified according to the Gleichschaltung policy after the 1933 takeover:

Labor unions were supported by the NAZI's

Estos hiojs de putas republicanos siempre se las inventan para ponerse al lado de los empresarios y reclamarse para ellos el campo moral.

Malparidos porque nunca quieren que el menor entre nosotros tenga un poquito de dinero.

Los despotas dicatdores se abarazan de la bandera y la constitucion americana para hacerle dano al projimo.

Don't bother enlightening John with facts, he is searching for emotional validation for his parties actions, the simplest easiest way to achieve that since WWII to has been to compare the opposition to Nazi's, not matter what the reality of the situation is. Such behavior from someone who supports shutting down schools and government to continue their own fleecing of the taxpayers should not be unexpected.

First they attacked the unions and next they will fire all of the employees and hire merceneraris loyal to Rumsfeld, Chenney, Bushies to run your prisons and security forces.

Next they pass laws lowering taxes again and close down programs for the middle class and low income families. They will privatize everything and when they are done, there will be no unions to fight them.

johnj how dare you equate the republicans to the nazis. I thought you on the left were suppose to be civil. I am really tired of hearing the rants of people like you.

The Nazis were not a labor Union they were a political party.

Only authoritarian governments, like the Nazis and the Communists, want to destroy labor unions. Now Republican governors in many states want to join them.

Another Idiot using ":Nazification" to smear good Americans simply because they hold a different view... ! Pathetic.... typical losers that can't hold an intelligent debate and have to pull out the "Nazi" card or some other absurd label... With views like that the majority of Americans support the Governor of Wisconsin, New Jersey, Florida etc... the Wave is coming and the Unions are losing the support of the real "working People"

Let me tell ya, the unions are just another crooked club... the "books" are closed for the good paying jobs with most unions... and workers struggle for years or even decades before they see any real prosperity... what a scam!

With views like that the majority of Americans support the Governor of Wisconsin,

Another idiot with no data to support their claim.

The best poll on the issue may come from USA Today/Gallup. That poll, with a sampling of over 1,000 Americans, found that 61% of people oppose a law in their state similar to the one Walker is proposing in Wisconsin. Just 33% were in favor of a similar law. Another poll commissioned by the AFL/CIO, but conducted by an independent firm, found that 62% of Wisconsin voters view the public employees favorably, compared to just 11% who have an unfavorable view. In comparison, just 39% of Wisconsin voters now have a favorable view of Walker, compared to 49% who have an unfavorable view. Finally, the poll found 52% of Wisconsin voters oppose Governor Walker's plan while 42% favor it.

Conservatives like to cite a Rasmussen Reports poll which purports to show 48% of likely votes supporting Walker with just 38% supporting the protesters. However, many have looked upon the Rasmussen poll with a great deal of skepticism. Polling expert Nate Silver wrote a column strongly criticizing the Rasmussen poll. Silver points out that Rasmussen tended to be biased toward Republicans by an average of four points in the 2010 elections. Silver also takes issue with the ordering of the questions in the Rasmussen poll. The poll first asks respondents about a possible strike by firefighters and policemen (which is not even part of the Wisconsin bill or controversy) before going on to ask them about the bill itself. Silver argues, with statistical evidence, that the question wording could lead respondents to support the bill.

Continue reading on Examiner.com: Survey of polls show public siding with Wisconsin protesters - National Political Buzz | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/political-buzz-in-national/more-polls-show-public-siding-with-wisconsin-protesters#ixzz1F6waT72z

Walker is losing supporters faster than Mubarack. Another week of this and his wife (and the Koch brothers of course) will be the only ones behind him.

"Another idiot with no data to support their claim."

I have news for you Minan the Wisconsin legislature passes laws and in case you missed it those who are on the opposite side of the public unions are going to pass it no matter what poll you decide to pull out of your ass.

If you want to change what IS going to happen gather your minons and vote!!

Sounds like you were for Obama care .

Kyot, Republicans are NOT good Americans and by the way, Republicans are threatening to hold America hostage by shutting down the government if they don't get their way.

this is what republican party did to get Ronald Reagen elected traded arms to Iran in exchange to hold the Americans hostages until after the election. what a perverted political party!!!!

Please get help... the "republicans" are American business owners and the like that are struggling to keep going and making statements like that you made like republicans are "bad people" etc... show an extreme lack of intellect and understanding of not only business but life in general. Political parties change, evolve for better or worse AND to get back to my comment I NEVER said one party or the other. The governor happens to be republican... But honestly the democrat party seems to be a disguise for communism or at least socialism which is NOT our form of government if you haven't either learned that or figured it out.

Kyot, unions represent both Republicans and Democrats. They do not force a voter to vote one way or the other.

Hey Bob, when I was in the unions both afscme and seafarers SIU the phone calls at election time were "urging" members to vote "Democrat" so your comment is just simple.

Phone calls are just that. I have voted both party's and am a union member. Many I know consider us independent. Many vote their conscience and not by phone call. I recieve calls from both party's, so.

..."as unions are also a political voice"

Not PUBLIC unions. This is the issue that so many keep ignoring. BTW FDR had it right...public unions have no place in the work place.

“It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government.” guess who said that.........

I would love for someone who thinks that public unions are OK to explain what recourse the public has when these workers hold public services, which no one has any recourse, from the public.

why don't you repubs fire all the public employees. do away with schools and teachers all together, and just simply do away with education, firemen, policeman, conservation officers, forestry workers and the likes. it appears you don't want to pay them. some of you people sound as if they don't work for their pay. this will save the rich all kinds money!!!

And BY LAW who is going to do all of those jobs? The only thing that needs to be done is to remove the public workers ability to strike. Still can have union but pretty harmless to the public....the way it should be.

You might be on to something... let's fire all these "public" employees and contract the private sector to provide these services... we would be better off.

I don't think we should remove them and hire private sector employees. They just shouldn't be allowed to strike and in effect hold the public hostage.

The military isn't allowed to go on strike why should ANY public employee?

Hey Brent, here's a quote for ya.

“It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government.”

Wanna guess who said that?

What's Walker afraid of? That he can't hold his line with the union leaders once they are at the table? It's not as if bargaining rights means you will automatically get what you want. If Walker is such a tough guy on budget and is competent in negotiation, he shouldn't have anything to worry about. What he's worried about is displeasing the puppet master who wants unions broken, period.

Walker is afraid of the Tea Party and his masters.... the Koch brothers. Walker is so arrogant he thinks that he is going to be the Republican nominee for POTUS in 2012. Like they would be that stupid. Thank you.

walker wouldn't make a pimple on a Governor's butt ... am i missing something here folks but it seems the only governors who can't balance the budget without busting the unions and eliminating workers rights are the republicans. all walker has to do is some of the democratic governors for some advice. they will help him.

Why should we the public have to compromise with unions? They are PUBLIC SERVANTS just like those in the military. Why don't THEY show a little honor and just serve the public?

As my son is driving those protesters to the rally in Madison today, the estimates of crowd size, per the Madison Police Dept. is about 85000 so far and more are coming. Lies and made up facts, just don't cut buddy.

Yeah that's because the crooked ass unions are bussing in thugs and dirtbags from Chicago! CUT us a break for real!

Check out what the activities of the KOCH brothers and Citizens United before you make those kinds of remarks., Kyot. Fascist dictatorships took hold when the economic power became concentrated under the control of only a few.

We seem to be rolling down this path rapidly. The power of big businesses supported fascism in Italy and Germany.

A nice note to remember: Wisconsin public employees pensions are NOT a giveaway from the government. They are in their contracts as deferred wages. What Governor Walker seeks to take away is money earned by the state workers that has not yet been paid to them. No doubt every penny that these workers have had deferred to fund their pensions will be paid back in full when Mr. Walker shuts down the pension system.

And I'm just as sure that the Republican Party will be jumping to return every dollar that I've paid into the Social Security and Medicare systems if they ever succeed in their goal of shutting these programs down to make their corporate overlords happy.

Again with the nazification propaganda... well here is a real statistic for you... 13% of the people in the USSR were members of the communist party which was essentially the "Union" and they controlled the lives of 100% of the workers and populace. You're mentally imbalanced and delusional if you actually believe that the governor of wisconsin is a prelude to authoritarian dictatorship and I can tel you that the vast majority of Americans are not sympathetic to hearing this type of rhetoric used against a duly elected governor as compared with the farce of governance that the unions have.

Good GOD Kyot. You have obviously not been educated in a high quality educational system. Let me guess.

South Carolina? Texas? How about Georgia?

Am I close?

Not even close you nitwit... Philadelphia parochial schools and maritime colleges with full scholarship offers to top universities, St. Joseph, Villanova, Cornell, Temple etc... and after 30 years I am a top consultant to business and academia in my field aside from owning my internationally branded company... shows how very little you really know now doesn't it?

Actually Republicans want to bring back the working, period. And also stop the robbing from the future that has become pervasive.

Yup. 100% employment is the goal of the Republican Party. Problem is only 10% will make enough to live on. Kinda sucks for the other 90%.

pjam, I have seen absolutely no actual BEHAVIOR that supports your assertion, only words that it's true. Actions speak louder than words and thus far the Republican party hasn't shown anything like that. In fact, it has shown the opposite.

When you DEMAND that millionaires get unnecessary tax cuts, that is robbing from the future. They got their stupid tax cut extension but where is the floodgate of jobs opening up they guaranteed would follow? Oh, that's right, they are overseas b/c they also insist on allowing companies to get tax breaks without tying the same breaks to a minimum percentage of non-executive jobs within the confines of the US.

Republican party---all hat and no cattle.

Liberals never seem to get the point that government does not create any job or product without taking something away from someone else first.

Got that liberals?? I'll say it again, because its so important and apparently completely lost on liberals. Government does not create any job or product without taking something away from someone else first.

All these liberals complaining about Wisconsin eliminating "middle class jobs" never seem to get around to mentioning that most of those middle class jobs are GOVERNMENT JOBS that only exist because the government took money away from someone else... who earned it to begin with so that job could be created. And that same job is STILL funded by SOMEONE ELSE who earned that money.

Get a clue liberals. We've had it with your socialist dogma. We've had enough of the corruption of government and unions. This is just the beginning, its going to get much worse for the government unions because we aren't going to stand for the tax increases that the socialists want to pass to keep their putrid little union cash cow going.

The Communist Party of America stands with the government union protestors. This is why I don't consider liberals to be Americans anymore. You can be born here, you can be a citizen, but you are not an American. Being an American is more a state of mind than a place of birth. Being an American means you believe in and support the founding documents of this nation. Being an American means you believe in self reliance. Being an American means you love your country and aren't bashing it incessantly as liberals do. Being an American means you don't believe in sucking off of someone else (the government) for the rest of your entire life as liberals do.

Liberals have proved they are socialists, communists or Marxists, but they are not Americans. Real Americans don't have heros like Castro, Che, Chaves, Mao, Stalin, Lenin, or Marx as the left does. Real Americans don't rely on the government to give them everything or control everything, which is exactly what liberals want.

Liberals would love for the government to be able to tell every company exactly where it must locate, what it must produce, how many people it must employ and what it must pay those people. Liberals know that is a true statement. But even liberals understand how bad that sounds to any reasonable American, so rather than admit it, they will lie, obfuscate and make all manner of excuses to try and deflect from the truth.

Thankfully, more and more are waking up to that realization. That's why the liberals lost so badly in the last election, and will lose just as badly the next election. Liberals proved they whole heartedly believe in fascism when they piled on a bus and ran like cowards rather than face a vote they knew they would lose. Its too dangerous to let the people have their say. Liberals are not Americans.

"bring back the working poor"? Hell, the Republicans created the working poor with the way they structured Welfare Reform. Their ultimate goal is to bring back slavery. The new slavery will not look like the old slavery where workers have actual owners. They will be a permanent underclass that will have to accept any working conditions and pay the bosses choose.

Why else would billionaires like the Koch brothers go round spending millions on their agenda, when it would probably cost them less to just pay their workers more?

@rockne,

if you slept with your boss to keep your job, i have to wonder when prostitutes were part of the union. never have i heard such a thing in recent times without someone going to jail. you talk about middleclass working poor? tell ya what, right now, i have been out of a job since sept. and it isnt like i havent been looking for a job either! so to put it to you bluntly, i'd rather be working makeing ANYTHING an hr, vs $0.00 hr!

No "Tea Party" supporters of the proposal championed by Republican Gov. Scott Walker were spotted on Saturday. They staged a smaller rally of their own in Madison a week ago.

might be because they had jobs to do, like WORK!? something unions dont seem to understand other than holding buisness and the public hostage with their own demands it seems.

You don't understand conservative values .

I also understand that the Government though regulations can and does restrict job growth by hassling companies with to much regulations that along with unions slows down the economy.

I live in a right to work state down south and if you have not noticed the job market is better here . Yes the wages are lower but so is the price of living.

Anyways that is my humble opinion.

Republicans are "Hypocrites".

Just look at there views on Abortion and the Death Penalty. On one hand its OK to kill a human being and on the other hand its not OK. The fact is, "Killing is Killing", regardless of the circumstance.

This is Hypocrisy - Plain and simple.

The same is true regarding "workers rights". As long as it does'nt affect them or their families, then its OK, but when it affects them, its not OK.

Again, pure Hypocrisy.

Most all Republicans claim to be Christan's. How can a "Hypocrite" call themselves a "Christan"? Again, its pure "Hypocrisy"

The Road to Hadez is being paved with "Republicans and their Hypocritical Views and Beliefs"

Retired, the same can be said of the liberal, if you will, value in regulating business excess, as in low-wages, low benefits, enviormental concerns, product safety, bad business practice(Enron, Bernie Maddoff, and others) who would rape and pillage society if it was allowed, by conservative values.

I don't know why anyone would willingly call themselves conservative especially not libertarians. Politically it suggests the epitome of the right wing: statism, monopoly, paternalism, corporatism, protectionism, state privilege. I fail to see how in Europe and America it can or should be seen in anything other than a negative light. To conserve is to preserve in opposition to change.By definition it's a reaction against change. While this is not bad per se, in politics, given the evils of the status quo, it is. This also creates a false impression that anyone who is not a conservative merely seeks to change and destroy including that which is good.

My advice to libertarians: remove any mention and association with the concept and word "conservative". It is only a label for evil.

As John Kenneth Galbraith said so eloquently: " The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

I'll make a deal with you, ConservativeNotRepublican: if you stop telling lies about liberals, we will stop telling the truth about conservatives.

The constant bickering and partisan tribalism is on both sides of the debate. But to say that being a conservative means "epitome of paternalism, monopoly, statism etc..." is not only totally wrong it's also prejudice and ignorant. As a self described "Conservative" it means I am financially responsible, believe in the preservation of resources, as an American I believe it means putting my own country ahead of others and constitutionally my views limit widely interpretation of the US Constitution. As a conservative I believe the constitution is not supposed to "evolve" into socialism or some other form of government like so called liberals claim that it should.

So I reject your views and your corrupt and twisted "liberal" vomit.

The time to approve the constitution, with the original amendments was 12 years after our Declaration of Independence.

Jefferson and Franklin wrote of their frustration in the States ability to accomplish this document, and so it was that Federal Government was entitled to preserve the Republic.

If you want to believe that our country is first among all others, which all people do, than we can not accept that we have "evolved" into something we have no say on. Please explain "evolve" in context to your comment.

And you don't consider that it's prejudiced and ignorant of YOU, as a conservative, to say that criticism of conservatism is prejudiced and ignorant? Well, that's certainly an unbiased, well-informed POV. *sarcasm*

I believe, as a liberal, in equal opportunity and equality for all, and that government must protect all civil liberties as well as individual and human rights. I believe in a woman's right to privacy, and I believe in fiscal responsibility -- but the government should be able to provide affordable basic services to its citizens. I do not believe in raping our natural resources -- as you conservatives do -- in order to get more oil. It is necessary to explore other energy sources, such as wind and solar power, as oil is a diminishing supply. Your tripe about the "preservation of resources" is just conservative vomit for more oil drilling, no matter what is damaged in the process. You conservatives believe in protecting your own rights, no one else's.

You still have not shown how our government has "evolved" into socialism; perhaps it's because you can't.

I therefore reject YOUR views and your corrupt and twisted conservative puke.

As I said before, if you stop lying about liberals, we'll stop telling the truth about conservatives.

I never lied about anything... again liberal twisted vomit... you can make speeches to your own... but you're not addressing my statements and you have not made an intelligent rebuttal of anything I actually said. By the way we already have equal opportunity... what you're actually saying and I deem absolutely Un-American and materially inept is this idea you and most libs have that we are all "equal". when in plain sight, we all are not equal. Why do we even have IQ tests, or SAT's or PHD's etc...? If we're all equal then why? Because you're wrong as wrong can be. We are created equal but that does not mean that government has the mandate or power for that matter to redistribute talent, motivation and all the other individual traits that in fact make us different.

your view does not account for personal responsibility or accountability and is ultimately delusional.

Kyot, your idea that "we already have equal opportunity" is demigod talk. Since when do your ideas, speak for all. Talk about communist thinking, look at yourself, defending your idea with blanket statements right out of the communist manifesto. "We all have the same opportunity, over here". B.S.. Not that we have done a good or terrible job, but how do you equate equal opportunity, with the obvious differences in economy's and politics between the States, or for that matter your town and the next town down from you? Each are distinct as you are.

And where do you get the idea government has any mandate to distributeanything. You sound , with emphasis on me, that you are libertarian, let everything work it's way out on itself. Fine, but don't push that value on someone else, if that is what you believe.

Who are you quoting Bob? Take another look because it is not me. We, the American people have equal opportunity under the law. It is the law! Okay so you imply that there's not equality by citing differences between "states" etc...? I am guessing because you did not state your point too clearly, that somehow we have to account for the differences in people, places and things. Well as I stated in an earlier post, we may have been created "equal" but we are all not the same. Some of us are faster, smarter, slower etc... and the results are LIFE....! REALITY....! okay so I can't explain that in a paragraph but it's not the governments place to mess with that ... And you're misunderstanding me. The UNIONS say we are all equal and the same and no one should be making more than the next guy or less than the next guy etc... And I'm saying that is wrong... hope I made it clear for you.

I'm sure many people have had your thoughts for many years. May better thoughts be in our future.

Our economy and society is based on seperate groups striving for betterment of themselves, unions can be included, as business, social, and government.

Oh, ya. You did a good job on #16.11, until you spill your beans on the "evolve", prejudice based, analogy of liberal. Nice try though.

Also if the schools are headed for failure, perhaps you will decide to home school your relatives' children, or pay someone to do it.

Kyot, you are so unbelievably wrong! AGAIN!

Unions establish minimums in most cases. Rarely do you see a Union telling an employer not to pay more to any individual because he/she is better at the job.

Get Real ... should get real. I was in the sea farers union and I was a better pilot, captain etc... and worked harder but made no more money... I was eventually picked up full time by the company and became management and no longer with the union... but that had nothing to do with the union... to them everyone is the same just like pure communism.

Regarding home schooling relatives... why should I respond to your whacked out nonsense. What a friggin kook.

Spoken like a true intellect.

I love people like you.

"I was a better pilot, captain, etc... and I worked harder."

That's hilarious! I just have to take your word that you were a "real hard worker" and you were the epitome of the perfect employee.

We've all worked with people like you. You are the ones we refer to when we shake our heads, roll our eyes, and giggle whenever you toot your own horn. Just by reading your posts, we can tell you have difficulties with interpersonal skills. You are a control freak and you aren't much when it comes to analytical process's.

Perfect place for you is in the middle of the Atlantic hauling small quantities of ore to Portugal or maybe a garbage barge across the Pacific to China.

Obviously they got nervous with having such an "outstanding seaman" on the bridge and moved you to a desk! Nice!

Way to go Toy K.

What an imbecile... that was 20 years ago and now I am the ceo of an international firm and have another company and owner of ships installing wind farms offshore among other maritime projects. I have to say it amazes me the people on here that think they can read a few comments and then they are arrogant and stupid enough to sum up another persons life that they know nothing about. Your name it befits you so why don't you just "giggle" while you look in the mirror....

No... really... I believe you.

If your posts are a representation of your business prowess, I'll gladly pass if your conglomerate goes public.

You are so silly. I suppose your last name is Trump and you just spend time here meddling in the affairs of other states when you aren't under the desk of one of the Koch brothers?

Please, you're just another pathetic loser and coward throwing personal insults and creating your own destiny and Karma on your own words... Although I am guilty of wasting my time with you... you're much worse and make me grateful for all I have and all that I am... my advice at the core of all my comments is people can't and should not rely on government, unions etc.... all corrupt and all will fade away at some point. Human endeavor and individuality is the only hope. You have a long way to go and a lot of Karma to repay... and I have nothing further to say to you or other delusional weaklings that hide behind computers and ignore your own potential blaming others for your place in life.

You call me an "imbecile," a "pathetic loser," a "coward," and a "nitwit" all within three posts.

Karma?

All in all I feel OK. Reread your posts and tell me about Karma. Then talk about personal insults.

What a hypocrite. Good luck with your gazillions of dollars buddy. Are they strapped to a camel, by chance? Have you seen any needles lately?

blah blah blah... loser...

Kyot, I don't believe you, because you have brought up the personal insults first, and more often than others. I'm not asking you to do anything, because I have read it myself, You see I am self-supporting and look after my friends and family, and do not have to prove it to you.

Kyot, you are acting like you're six years old. A little maturity would go a long way. How many times have you been divorced? More than 5? I wouldn't be surprised.

the reason I am taking the stance I am with you is because you're both ignorant and so biased, closed minded and judgmental in your own unique way. You're so wrong about me that it's ridiculous... on every count you've been wrong... one clown asks if I grew up in the south and attacks my education (Bob) and the other says I'm married 5 times... when I have been married once and for 27 years... Surprise....!

Look I made my comments and they were not about any individual commenting UNTIL your offhand remarks to me... and I dished it back... But you can't handle it. You got me wrong and frankly you're politics are wrong too. You don't need to vilify me personally. But when you do I will give it back and give it back hard... the truth hurts... and so far you haven't nailed the truth abut me.. not one time!

Kyot, you are so unbelievably wrong! AGAIN!

Unions establish minimums in most cases. Rarely do you see a Union telling an employer not to pay more to any individual because he/she is better at the job.

I believe this was my first post. No personal attack. I am now through with you. You are a liar and a hypocrite. Those two things make anything you write irrelevant to any conversation. Good luck with your own biased one way thinking. You haven't given any factual information to back up your narrow-minded opinions. You are abrasive, egocentric, and egotistical. You have no room for anyone's opinion or facts if they differ from your own. You are part of the problem. Good luck.

Kyot, for your own info, please re-read my posts, I have not degraded you personally, your bias and analogy, yes. I do not expect a retraction or apology, as I would not offer one to you.

Do not forget that unlike FoxNews, many on N.V. regard what others have said in context to their comments over a period of time, and not spare of the moment.

I suggest you click on those you oppose, read the posts and recommended articles. Many you oppose are well read and affluent. There is no reason to start personal attacks and political rhetoric, that do little to solve the problem but do much to antagonize. Also vilifying groups and organizations accomplishes the same idea, and is taken personally by those who have interest in them.

Ya know it's just not good enough to try to come off like you're taking the high road now not after the personal attacks... I did read MY posts and your reaction and it might sound sophomoric but it's true that you both started it going down hill.

You can be "through" with me but I think that means you're through trying to get "one-up" on me because you failed in doing so. And lecturing me on the goodness of the unions is really absurd. That mythical unicorn union you talk about does not exist. I was in 2 or more unions in my life and they were crooked, took the members money and screwed them over... period! The Unions did their part yes more than 50 years ago by halting child labor and establishing work weeks etc... but now that these things are essentially the law, what is the real benefit and is it worth it to society and the country at large now... and there is no doubt the question is debatable...

So be pleased to move on and next time you try to take a cheap shot at someone else because you don't agree with them then think about it before you do it.

ciao

Will you retract your statement "As a conservative I believe the constitution is not supposed to "evolve" into socialism or some other form of government like so called liberals claim that it should". That quote is directly from your first post I commented on.

Why would I retract something I know is true. The truth is not dependent on people who think minipulating truthful statements changes the "truth". There is essential truth in what I am saying and I have no doubts that the "progressive" or "liberal" or as we have unfortunately come to realize most of the "Democrat Party" want the country to become socialist because they think it's convenient in order to accommodate all the myriad special interest groups. It's ironic that the Chinese are more capitalist than America that brought modern democracy to the world. It's a very disturbing situation which people in the US have taken this country and the benefits for granted.

To answer your question, bring it up to your friends or religious group. If they agree that groups, political or social should be judged by a few, and not as a whole, then you are right.

Bob. I don't know if you watch MSNBC morning program called Morning Joe. If you do and you caught the program this morning... Mike barnacle, Mika Brezsnki and the guest were discussing a book "The Thank You Economy" which poses numerous questions regarding social media, society and how "special Interest" groups are, among other things garnering unbalanced attention and influencing policy. Both positive and negatively of course...

The political slant of the hosts (even Joe Scarborough has become slightly left of center) is very much to the left. They rarely criticize the current administration. Even Mike Barnacle and Mika Breznski noted that in order to satisfy all the special interests groups that the nation would ned to fundamentally have to change ... they did concede and imply that going down this road meant Socialism... We need to open our eyes and see what is going on and what the real agenda is. I am not a right wing nut. I NEVER voted for either Bush and supported Clinton through the whole circus etc... except for his wife's push on the healthcare which would have been a nightmare (and may have killed the prosperity we had... but really who knows)

But Obama plus public sector unions plus healthcare entitlements for up to 18 million ilegals aliens and undocumented workers, etc.... will result ultimately in a country unrecognizable from what we started with... we really are unfortunately dealing with "all or nothing" and "win or lose" regarding our nation and it's future.

I disagree with your assumption that corporate media has a left/slant or liberal. To call those who are considered left of Obama or media socialists is in my opinion absurd. There are many organizations, political, which get no print or air play in media, and have a political stand beyond the realm of corporate media. as a example Huffington Post, at one time was more liberal in their scope of reporting. Recently they have been purchased by a larger Corporation, and the obvious change in their slant, is dictated by corporate policy, as is FoxNews. P.B.S. is another media outlet that has in recent years, replaced hosts or changed their policy on who is a guest in discussion of politics. These trends , in my opinion, further what people believe to be extreme positions.

How often do you see or hear opinion voiced in media that supports our total withdrawal from Afghanistan, our commitment to further large Corporation involvement in oil outside our country, the reaffirming of our progressive tax structure as it was discussed by Franklin and Jefferson. Also, the fact that each Republican President and Johnson, since Eisenhower, involved us in some war effort, be it Panama, Iraq, Viet Nam, Granada.

The commision appointed to research the cause of the economic downturn has recently released their report. Their findings, point blank, find the causes many from both parties, and Wall Street. Yet corporate media must pick out one cause, and not those that are contrary to their corporate policy. How much has that been reported by the mainstream media, both sides.

Mass media's job, as shown by your example, is to disregard all aspects of the debate and give the appearance of popular public opinion, which it is not.

One other example, The Wis. stalemate has been discussed as a deficit reduction bill, and a intisment for business to grow by one side, and the other side sees it as a loss of their right to bargain. In my eyes, the bill was a power grab by the State Legislature to take away the local governments ability to contract their employee's. That bill is contrary to conservative believe of less government, yet by the media standards, we think this bill is something else.

Last weeks, Chicago Tribune, a conservative publication that I like to read had a large article on the State of Ill. budget problem. They stated fact from the Ill. Dept. of Revenue.

1. 66% of ALL business in Il. now pay No State income tax because of the economy, tax incentives given by the State to those business's as a means to keep them in or move into the State, and the ability for business to claim a loss in income for successive years. So where is the medias attention to that fact. More often than not we are told we as individuals will have to take a sacrifice in order to help ourselves, b.s. I say. Each State is in competition to expand their private business, at the expense of us, those who always have to pay some State Income Tax.

2. Many of the agreements that the State has with Business has lowered the business tax, but if the business will not comply with their end,(more jobs, less outsourcing) the State must sue the business, and the cost will be substantial, prohibiting the State from getting what is our due. Do you read that or hear that on mainstream media, probable not.

You know Bob, again you're twisting my words. I never said they were socialists. I said that they're virtually now admitting that in order to placate all the special interests groups we as a nation would have to become socialist.

And Bob, if you had or have your own business then you'd know if the state and local governments and the feds don't back off it will not be a matter of choice for businesses. They will disappear. The answer is not raising taxes anymore. the answer is cutting spending and holding government at all levels accoutable and not spending more than they bring in... Or in other words... Harry Reid will have to find another way to fund the COWBOY POET FOUNDATION he wants 10 million friggin dollars for... C'mon Bob.. I'm trying but you're being a bit thick.

My second sentence did not refer to you personally. We probable would be friends if we had meet under different circumstances, as we both have our opinions and listen to others.

Part of the answer to government, in my opinion, is having actual power and influence in policy distributed across a broader base of Americans, that would mean less influence by media, and business which are a minority part of America, yet have a large influence on our outcome. The facts stated by a conservative publication, The Chicago Tribune and a government Office show that in reality the % of business that actually pays income tax to my State is very low. When I hear people say we can not tax others or myself more as a solution my opinion is we can as the facts justify it.

If you have time, please research the Tax Foundation web site. They are a fairly conservative tax "think tank", not as politically controlled as the Heritage Foundation another "think tank", and have been around for some 70 years. They go into detail of the amount of people and business who now pay much less in taxes both State and Fed., yet a minority of the same groups pay more.The burden of taxes is being carried by fewer tax payers, both business and individual, as a percentage of the total who payed tax previously.

So, I can not buy the theory that higher effective tax rates for a few in all groups will not help or will be negative to our economy.

Yes, I have business interest and find it appalling that some in my industry have tax advantages that I will not accept in theory or substance. Actually my business incurs more of a tax burden to me very slowly and is predictable. I can easily accommodate the taxes, but do have a problem with costs in goods as their increases are more influenced by the price of fuel, labor, and increase much more suddenly. For instance a contract may expire between my business and a supplier. As of today, normal increases in those supplies are in the 10% range, far less then the actual taxes I pay. Also with the decrease in real estate taxes in my area, my actual tax burden is the same as it has been for 9 years, in actual dollars, and I have raised more income annually in those same years.

To bring politics into the discussion is fruitless, as we all know each side has their favorites, and has been so since we became a country. I don't want to throw political jabs back and forth as the media, and political groups do.

Bob... it has to stop. Government at every level has failed with tremendous amounts of revenue! They spend everything and we're at a tipping point frankly that if we allow it to go past they will need everything we have and taxn us out of a demoracy into something we really do not want. It's not that complicated to see what's coming and rasing taxes will not repair a broken system of government. .

If you want to group all government as a cause and effect to our economy, you must group all Wall Street, business, and individuals as a cause. A recent report was published by a bi-partisian commitee appointed by Obama, that will tell you policy from all past administrations, Fannie-May etc., Wall Street, were a cause to the economic turndown, and we will have the potential for another collapse unless all those involved are regulated, fervantly regardless of party, by qualified individuals who have the best interest for their country, than for their friends and business associates.

We can not believe that "To big to fail" is capitalism, my opinion is it is closer to socialism, for the betterment of the Large, and opposed to the betterment of the majority

What we need to do is group all individuals in our society who feel the luxuries in our world are "needed." Our whole value system is out of whack!

??????????? Get REAL.

Is newsvine not a luxury?

The internet could be, depending how it is used. I don't know if that would be the largest of the issues we could approach. A computer... maybe, but that too would be use specific.

How about a new car every 4 years or a trip to Europe every six months or maybe the yearly Caribbean Cruise?

How about the 60" HDTV or taking the family out to eat 3 times a week?

How about the vacation home in the mountains, the RV beside the 4000 sq ft home with lofted ceilings and the 60 pairs of Jimmy Choos which compliment the 200 outfits in the walk-in closet fabulously?

Maybe we could talk about the jackass with a wife and two kids who feels it necessary to drive a Ford Excursion or a Cadillac Escalade at 13mpg (driving down hill with a tail wind) so his darling wife can pack the back with 600 dollars a week worth of groceries in the back while doing "her chores?"

How about eliminating the tithing that keeps the local "pastor" clothed in the best 1000 dollar suits in the area and affords him the money to broadcast his judgment of all the folks who don't follow his concept of morality while he secretly partakes in every "abomination" he preaches against? Colorado Springs.... YOU FEELING ME?

At an elementary level, sure Newsvine could be considered a luxury. It's more a tool for communication to me but I wouldn't be upset if many of the folks here chose not to use it.

YOU FEELING ME?

Yeah i do..i am a waltons fan myself thanks for the reply.

As far as I can tell, you'd probably refer to me as one of your hated "liberals" too.

We can find common ground on most issues as long as we are committed to finding the elusive "gray area."

Boys, as far as I'm concerned, tax increases or decreases and the size of government will have no lasting effect on our economy. Until we begin to lower our Trade deficit with the rest of the world, we will be in this same boat again.

If our business had the ability to expand our economy by selling our goods overseas, business would not want to move there, or take the jobs there. A profit could be made by exporting goods and services not outsourcing our jobs, and money. The return in revenue to the government would be from foriegn country's. We would not have to sell our Treasury Bills ( I.O.U.s) to any one else to balance our trade deficit with the rest of the world.

We could in theory reduce our taxes and government to zero, but we would continue to buy more from other country's than they buy from us, and we will be broke again.

Everyone should take the suggestion that we can not keep spending money we don't have and apply that same logic to our whole economy versus the world. We can not continue to spend more money outside our economy than we have money coming back. To do anything less is a debt to our children.

Good Day, All.

And now, the link that I'm trying to put up keeps disappearing. This is comical. I'll put it up in pieces. Reassemble the three in your browser and have a read if you care. I can only assume that some of these absolute clowns on here have been hired by msnbc, so for you, just proceed to call names and distract people.

http://

blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed

-taxpayers-actually-contribute-nothing-to-public-employee-pensions/

Hired propagandize(rs) were bused in from all over the country to protest this bill.

All the venom and hate in the world won't change the inevitable. Unions are toast.

Forbes doesn't pay taxes in WI.

You seem to have forgotten to post the link you are referring to. So here is is:

­gs.forbes.­com/rickun­gar/2011/0­2/25/the-w­isconsin-l­ie-exposed­-taxpayers­-actually-­contribute­-nothing-t­o-public-e­mployee-pe­nsions/

Sorry didn't get it all before

ok its getting cut off somehow

don't worry, i put the link in my second message in three parts. msnbc (owned by General Electric) must have some sort of nefarious program that removes links.

Well, Former GE CEO Jack Welch was the one who said all factories should be built on barges, the better to move jobs to low wage countries. .....just saying.

In Lansing Michigan we had a couple of thousand, outside the local Bank of America there were about 15 in my small town.

I totaly agree. The actions of the democrat fleebaggers are indefensible.

Yes, who keeps removing the web links? MSNBC are you behind this? If not, fix it. If you are well, I would get banned for what I would say about that.

carvelle - "none of the three news networks covered it."

Because greedy, self-centered, whining, losers are not news... no matter how annoying and uncivilized they behave.

Pjam, we're talking about hundreds of thousands of people, and protesting, which may seem uncivilized to you, is part of my and our First Amendment rights.

Your General Electric check will be mailed to your home shortly.

The full link.

http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/2011/02/25/the-wisconsin-lie-exposed-taxpayers-actually-contribute-nothing-to-public-employee-pensions/

carvelle33....You must be kidding about GE......Jack Immelt hangs with Obama in the Oval Office.....the head of his economic decovery task force....and GE paid ZERO taxes in 2010.....

Rezsia...That article has already been debunked on another Newsvine.....save your breath.....all the money comes from the Government (taxpayers) whether it is in the paycheck or in benefits.

$30,000 is blood wages? What the @!$%# is with the BILLIONS paid in 2010 to Wall Street? Chump Change right?

PS - WALL STREET tanked the states.

Everything you have today, you owe to people who died during the beginning of the union movement. There is NO benevolent boss: these things were hard fought for. What am I talking about? The 40 hour work week; no child labor; vacation time; OSHA standards; sick leave; 401K's; workers' compensation; lunch hours; being able to go to the bathroom on the job; sure, get rid of the unions and watch all of these things drop by the wayside. If this goes, some day you will reap what you have sown.

butco - Your defense is to compare unions to Wall Street? That is about like saying this recession is great... because it's not a depression.

Just because something more disgusting than you exists does not mean that you yourself are not disgusting and that the Majority of America is not disgusted by you.

Yeah, there is a thought. Fire all the teachers and replace them with who? What self respecting college graduate would work their butt off for a pittance with no ability to collective bargain for a livable wage and a fair working environment? AND, if you could find someone dumb enough to do it, would you want them teaching your children? wow.

pjam, It was the banks that tanked the economy. Remember that, always.

I will take your resorting to calling me names as a sign that you really have no other argument to offer, that you cannot get past the blinding hatred in the talking points you get form Rush or Faux News. That is all you can justify your view with, I understand how hard it can be to try to fit the whole wide world into such a narrow little window that those talking points only allow. It's okay, we understand. Someday, try to break out. It's very enlightening.

With Love,
btco

Juelles:

Thanks for the joke man, I haven't laughed that hard in a long time!!!

The Beev-2396805

Despicable. Crude. Ugly. Uncouth. Vile. Mean-spirited. Selfish. Spoiled.

The signs and demeanor of the throngs speaks volumes about their character. It's actually embarrassing. But of course, main stream media won't cover THIS gathering the way it did the opposition.

The propaganda is painful.

That's describes the Tea Party perfectly. That is the way the Tea Party behaves (Town Hall meetings, for example). The Union members and their supporters behave better than the Tea Party in every way.

lol....yeah right...the unions behave better?...aparently you havnt been paying attention....the unions are screaming and carrying on just as much.....i love how librals like to hold others to a standard they themselves cannot keep....pathetic.

your comparison to the working conditions at the formation of unions to today is ludicrous. Do you really believe that the comparison has any place in reality? If so, you must have been a product of the public education system that these unions has produced.

ALL that we have in the way of benefits and good wages are because of the unions! If you don't want what was fought for years ago, then let the unions vanish. I don't think that you will like how it was in the old days!

To MountainView53 : your comparison to the working conditions at the formation of unions to today is ludicrous. Do you really believe that the comparison has any place in reality? If so, you must have been a product of the public education system that these unions has produced.

Kindly tell us when your mother ship is landing to take you back to your planet. Prey tell what is wrong with being able to bargain for decent work place conditions? Do you think that today employers give you a @!$%#ing lunch break for their own benefit? Why that @!$%# do you think that they pay you for 40 hours of work and you get to have time off to jerk off or post idiotic comments about public education?

You may not need to have the power to bargain collectively, but Police Officers and firefighters get to keep that right. WHY?

Name it a state that has gone the route that this governor wants to pursuit and does not have a budget deficit.

You didn't even answer my challenge. No one but those with pot toasted brains believes your comparison.

To mountainview : Do we as citizens have the right to petition that an unjust government change its ways?

Financial responsibility is "unjust"? If you can't handle it move to a state where you can continue to drive it into bankruptcy with your greed.

pjam09 is right, your use of the word unjust is inflammatory rhetoric. As to your right to appeal to what you think is "unfair", I am all for it, but not by doing what the teachers are doing, namely screwing the students by shutting down the schools. They say they care about the student's education but their actions prove otherwise.

The public education you refer to has consistently led Wisconsin students to the top ACT scores in the country.

I do not belong to a union, I have owned a small business for the past 20 years. I do not want tax breaks. I want a thriving middle class that can afford to utilize my services.

Bravo,CTS. There is a cause and effect. I know how dedicated most teachers are to their students. I know how many teachers buy materials and supplies for their classroooms out of their own pockets. I know what teachers do for the benefit of their students. I am an educator and a therapist. When I meet someone who has been successful despite all odds, such as an abusive childhood, the reason they state for "making it" is that they had a teacher who believed in them. Celebrate teachers!

I am not totally against unions. My husband's family was instrumental in the union movement. In fact his grandfather was the one that came up with pensions. But when I see a teacher's union bullying the taxpayers because the teachers want the right to have plastic surgery, when I see the teacher's union bullying the taxpayers because they feel they deserve at least 3 different choices for healthcare instead of one which would save us money, when I see the teacher's union fighting to keep teachers that are the worst in their jobs while other better teachers are laid off due to their stupid tenure, then it needs to stop. Yes, unions were instrumental in getting workers decent wages and working conditions but nowadays the corruption and greed has gotten out of hand. They should have offered the bargaining they now want earlier on before things got out of hand.

Where the heck did you get that FALSE information about plastic surgery? And did you know that Walker pays $89/mo for family health care, has FREE housing(kinda like WELFARE), gets a FREE car (WI taxpayers pay for the gas i am sure) DOESN'T pay a dime into his tax payer funded pension, AND gets paid $137,000/year. Tell me who is screwing who?

Hannah you have got to be a Glen Beck zombie with what you just posted. if you told a lie like that to a jackass it would have sense enough to kick your brains out!!!!

Don't watch FOX. Googled Walkers benefits ALL FACTS!!!! And sweetie I am a PROUD LIBERAL. Just making sure that the GOP and the TP don't forget to inform the public. Thank you.

Hannah - before you post your nonsense why don't you do some research?? In Buffalo, NY teachers were getting plastic surgery under their contract and now the firefighters are going for the same thing. They say it's in retaliation. Only problem? It's us taxpayers that are footing the bill so thanks guys for retaliating against us.

concerned, your comparison of Wi. and N.Y. is a bad analogy, or comparison. The bill in Wi. effects only those in Wi.. The negotiations that will be changed will effect those teachers and others only in Wi., and have no effect on those in N.Y..

Others have asked you to read or keep your comments directed at the issue in Wis., which you have not done.

N.Y.'s policy's and the acts to support or not to support are not the same as Wi..

This bill would be contrary to separation of power as guaranteed by the constitution, and very non-conservative in my opinion. The power of negotiation will be transferred from the local school district and given to the State government.

That is the true issue in this discussion, money aside, the Wis. residents will have less direct involvment in their government.

Bob, no one asked me to keep my comment directed at WI except you first of all. Second of all, My comparison is justified in that they are both public unions and this is the result of that so-called "fair" collective bargaining that WI unions are pushing right now. It's so easy for someone to try to quash someone else's comments when they don't agree with their views but it is relative in that a public sector union takes and takes without wanting to give concessions until it gets to the breaking point. As the news so perfectly states, what goes on in WI under this issue will be affecting other states so for you to so cavalierly exclude them here is just plain self-gratifying or silly. And one last point - get real. It's not the residents that will have less direct involvement. It's the union members that will. The residents may actually have more to say about what they are paying for.

One question at a time than. My question to you is"Will the bill in Wi. remove the authority of the local government to negotiate with their employees, and give that authority to the State Government"? A plain and simply questions demand a plain and simple answer.

I'd love to have a Caddy, but can only afford a used Aveo. The guy at the dealership really wants me to buy that caddy too, but won't let me have it for the price of the Aveo. So sad :( I guess I can't get what I can't afford.

No place for unions in the public sector, period. Limited place in the private sector, but they have had way too much power in the past in the private sector, and do not belong in the public sector at all. Time to eliminate them in the public sector. Wisconsin was not trying to eliminate them, just clip their wings a bit. It they had any brains they would cooperate or they will find themselves gone for good. Go Governor. And you coward Democrats who fled the state like the cockroaches you are. Stay a way for good and good riddance. You're a bunch of cowards.

Let all of us know how you're making out in the future when your job is finally outsourced!

No place for unions in the public sector, period. Limited place in the private sector, but they have had way too much power in the past in the private sector, and do not belong in the public sector at all. Time to eliminate them in the public sector. Wisconsin was not trying to eliminate them, just clip their wings a bit. It they had any brains they would cooperate or they will find themselves gone for good. Go Governor. And you coward Democrats who fled the state like the cockroaches you are. Stay a way for good and good riddance. You're a bunch of cowards.

Do you agree that when you get together in group setting and demand better living conditions, that the force in power should listen to your complaints?

Even FDR, the godfather of liberalism, said there was no place for unions in the public sector. Stop raping the taxpayers. The cash cow of the public sector workers, namely the taxpayer, is dead. Get a clue. We will not stand for your bullying us anymore. Get back to work or get fired. GO GOVERNOR!!!!

Do you agree that when you get together in group setting and demand better living conditions, that the force in power should listen to your complaints?

Not when they hold the people who pay their wages (the taxpayers) hostage by not performing their job. No they should not listen, they should fire them.