What is the actual reason for public unions?

There seems to be a serious conflict of interest when the people at the negotiating table a lot of the time are:

1. Unions

2. Democrats paid for and sponsored by the unions

They are not being stripped of their rights. They are being stripped of the right to hold small communities hostage for pay and benefits. They will now be answerable to the Wisconsin taxpayers, their bosses.

Public employees should not be allowed to unionize. Unlike private sector, there are no free market forces to keep wages/benefits fair at the expense of the tax payer.

Unions in the private sector can be a good thing as long as the markets are free and open.

Mr. Rogers,

Public employees should not be allowed to unionize. Unlike private sector, there are no free market forces to keep wages/benefits fair at the expense of the tax payer.

That's a great point. Funny how they hate Walmart, say it's running all the mom and pop businesses out of the towns but they see nothing wrong with driving mom and pop out when it comes to extorting taxes from them to pay for their Cadillac heath and retirement benefits. I guess it all had to do with your perspective, eh?

LOL state union workers pay dues which go to their main union branch, which basically pay off politicians who give gravey contracts at the tax payers expense. Bottom line.

While I am concerned that some government unions are immune, I do like the sound of this:

So while unions still could represent those workers, they would not be able to seek pay increases above those pegged to the Consumer Price Index unless approved by a public referendum.

The public has more control over the government workers whose salaries they pay? How novel!

Brian2937636: ...but, of course, there is no conflict whatsoever for Republicans who are paid for and sponsored by large corporate interests, right?!

Before repeating what you hear on Rush 6 times per hour, you might want to engage your brain.

You realize that public employees don't have the right to strike unlike private employers. So the only recourse they have to is to collectively bargain. By removing their collective bargain capability they should have the right to strike.

Is or isn't this Country's Government a Union of States?

Republicans Collectively Bargain as Do Democrats. Party Lines!

The public has more control over the government workers whose salaries they pay? How novel!

Good point. Think about all the bankrupt cities and states whose people had no idea they were paying 6 figure salaries and full lifetime pensions for jobs that are more secure and have more holidays than their own private sector jobs.

Brian2937636: ...but, of course, there is no conflict whatsoever for Republicans who are paid for and sponsored by large corporate interests, right?!

Before repeating what you hear on Rush 6 times per hour, you might want to engage your brain.

Please quit the left/right BS... The money follows the power... Dems also supported corporate interest when protecting the banks and helping health insurance/pharma just like the pubs.

I agree with Mr Rogers. Walker is asking for 8% of their benefits be paid out of their paycheck like most other normal people and have their raises be tied to inflation and the CPI? What is wrong with that? I think the people on the left are really being drama queens.

Walker ran his campaign on things like this...and won. There is obviously a very silent majority that approves of this. Property taxes in WI are through the roof and rising to pay for the bottomless pit of endless benefits and full pensions. Average salary is $48k with summers off and several weeks during the school year off. They may start low but within a few years they are moving up the scale quickly, regardless of how good of a teacher you are. Cry me a river man.

California state pension funds going broke, Stanford study finds. New calculations by Stanford graduate ... "It's a political hot potato and most politicians shy away from the ...
news.stanford.edu/news/2010/april/pension-fund-problem-040510.html

Where I Iive, a new teacher fresh out of college with a shiny new teaching license gets paid $21k/year.

And the state government is STILL whittling away at their salaries. Every month it's something new -- from increasing the portion the employee has to pay of their pension or healthcare to outright cuts in pay.

If the next round of cuts goes through, my family will officially have crossed the line where our rent is more than 50% of our income. And forget about ever being able to own a home! We're well below the poverty line.

My wife has had to buy snack for her special ed children using her own food stamps because the district cut funding for it -- but the regulations say she needs to serve it or she could get reprimanded.

And the cuts would have been even worse without the union negotiations. The state government was trying for huger and more drastic cuts, but the union talked them down.

The teachers got a pay cut, but managed to avoid layoffs. In return, the state got to institute a hiring freeze, not even replacing retiring teachers, so they saved money by reducing the number of teachers without having to lay anyone off.

But that's not good enough for our new Republican governor -- she wants to cut costs even further. She said recently that she would require the school district to cut $26 million -- but she didn't want it to affect the classrooms. So she declared it had to come out of the administrative budget (she assumes the administrators are overpaid leeches). Well the administrations total budget is only $5 million. So... nobody's quite sure what they need to do now.

Think about all the bankrupt cities and states whose people had no idea they were paying 6 figure salaries

That is correct. See Bell, CA for more proof.

I agree with Mr Rogers. Walker is asking for 8% of their benefits be paid out of their paycheck like most other normal people and have their raises be tied to inflation and the CPI? What is wrong with that? I think the people on the left are really being drama queens.

Understand the issue, AZChzhd. The unions already agreed to these cuts.

What's at stake is not these salary and benefit cuts, which the unions already agreed to, but the right to collectively bargain in the future.

For Walker, getting the unions to agree to his cuts is not enough: he won't be happy unless he actually breaks the unions.

A person should always be allowed to work together with his/her coworkers to collectively bargain for decent wages if he/she feels there is more leverage that way; and a person should not give up this opportunity just because they work in the public sector and not the private.

Unions have lost a lot of ground in recent years, as have most Americans outside the wealthiest 10%.

But instead of demonizing unions for expecting what we should all expect: decent pay and benefits for the hard work we do, the far right has worked hard to cultivate an image of an "overpaid, lazy union worker" to get non-union middle-class Americans riled up against union members. It's not all that different than cultivating the image of the "welfare queen who drives a cadillac" as an excuse to cut critical programs that help the poor.

The unions in Wisconsin already agreed to give up the wages and benefits Walker wanted them to. How does it help Wisconsin's budget to strip them of their collective bargaining rights too?

Walker is asking for 8% of their benefits be paid out of their paycheck like most other normal people and have their raises be tied to inflation and the CPI? What is wrong with that?

Nothing is wrong with that. But what's wrong with you is you keep promoting the lie that this is what this is about. It's not. It's about employees having the right to bargain collectively. The teachers have already said they accept the cuts Walker proposed. So your "issue" is just another smoke screen promoted by a lying baptist minister. (not like that's unusual, right?)

But that's not good enough for our new Republican governor -- she wants to cut costs even further. She said recently that she would require the school district to cut $26 million -- but she didn't want it to affect the classrooms. So she declared it had to come out of the administrative budget (she assumes the administrators are overpaid leeches). Well the administrations totalbudget is only $5 million. So... nobody's quite sure what they need to do now.

Unfortunately, this is a symptom of our broken economy which is the fault of:

A) Banks and Federal Reserve

B) Politicians on BOTH LEFT and RIGHT

C) Apathetic Americans who would rather watch Football and Jersey Shore than pay attention

D) Our Anti-Trust Media ran by corporate/state int rests.

If we could fix our system by promoting liberty and freedom as well as private property ownership for the middle class, move away from central economic planning to a market based money system, and finally, restore the constitutional duties of government, than maybe we could have a vibrant economy that can afford to pay teachers what they are worth.

I'm afraid none of this will happen until the dollar is worthless and the SDR has been named reserve currency.

Where I Iive, a new teacher fresh out of college with a shiny new teaching license gets paid $21k/year.

Well said, Spielmann. But you have people like Beck and Limbaugh claiming teachers are making 100k/year and they justify this by claiming that health insurance and retirement is what makes it so. You can only shake your head. Furthermore, you will see right here on this forum that most of these people believe that teachers don't really do any work. So the anti-education bias of the ignorant continues. This right wing radicalism at its finest.

This right wing radicalism at its finest.

I'd say its radical to call everyone anti-educational and ignorant because they disagree with you and maybe have a different point of view.

Yeah, Vielman, you can't count healthcare and retirement benefits when figuring total teacher compensation, because everybody knows that they don't cost anything - the good fairy just brings them.

I think all of you are right. Our problems are the Democratic and Republican Parties.

They will protect the institution which is their cash cow. We can blame each other and laugh all the way to the bank. :)~

Try again, spidey, because even with benefits, no teacher makes 100k/year. That's like claiming Jews are controlling the world. It's just an evil lie meant to paint them as perpetrators.

I'd say its radical to call everyone anti-educational

Oh, so then that must mean that when radicals claim that teachers are communists and don't work that they're.....what? Loving Christians? Spare me the nonsense. It's no accident that this fascist Walker is a baptist minister. I've heard enough of them to know that they are a cult of radicalism to themselves.

I'd respond to more of what you are saying but Mr. Rogers is my spokesperson and doing a dam good job of it.

BTW, I am in a union, the United States Postal Mailhandlers Union. And I think the union is so self serving, only supports the weak, and not to mention, most, if not all of the union officials are the WORST workers of them all. Sad but true. I get paid the same and get the same benefits as the bum next to me who does nothing. THAT is unfair. I dont get a pension. Nobody hired after 1983 gets one. We get to contribute to a 401k that the PO matches 3%. Thats modest. We make about the same as teachers without the 4 months of vacations a year. i could go on and on. I support Walker.

The only reason they are agreeing to pay more into their retirement and health care has to do with him bringing this bill about. If they did not have the ending of the collective bargaining they would have threatened to strike. The reason the firemen and police were not included is they have no right to strike.

"You realize that public employees don't have the right to strike unlike private employers. "

What do you call walking off the job and out of the classroom to picket and protest? They are essentially striking right now, as are the democrat "lawmakers" who skipped town and refuse to let the legislature convene. As when Ronald Reagan fired the air traffic controllers when they walked out, Wisconsin should start replacing workers who are not in the classroom or at their state jobs when they should be. There are many who will gladly work for that which insults these protesters.

The Wisc supreme court should also allow constituents to elect new representatives who will go to the legislature and represent them. Every one of these lawmakers should be fired by the people who elected them not to run away, but to go to the capital and represent their interests as best they can. You do this by casting your "No" vote, not by leaving the state and refusing to allow the body to do it's mandated work.

Wait until they call in the teamsters and/or the UAW members for "support". Then it will get ugly.

Oh, so then that must mean that when radicals claim that teachers are communists and don't work that they're.....what? Loving Christians? Spare me the nonsense. It's no accident that this fascist Walker is a baptist minister. I've heard enough of them to know that they are a cult of radicalism to themselves.

I have made no such claims... and now you move on to say a certain religious group is a cult of radicals?

LOL... you speak against RUSH and BECK for their mass classifications, yet you run the EXACT same game on the other side of the fence.

You are no different than they are.

When more Americans can shed the bias of left/right and turn off MSNBC and FOX News, sit down and have peaceable dialogue without the "left is socialist" and "right is racist corporate whores", then maybe we can figure out where the REAL problems are and come to agreeable solutions.

Benefits do cost the government, and are part of the expenses passed on to the taxpayers.

But all I worry about is the week-to-week expenses, the amount they get on their paycheck to, you know, actually live their life and feed their families.

It's fairly simple to me -- it's insulting to teachers to pay them so little they are below the poverty line and qualify for food stamps! We should all be ashamed of ourselves that they need to spend their own money buying classroom supplies and textbooks for their students.

We live in a day and age where to be competitive in the global market we need highly educated workers -- and then we treat our teachers like dirt and pay them peanuts. And then we have the audacity to complain about them!

Over 50% of new teachers burn out and quit in their first 5 years because it's a high-stress, low-pay environment. They go to school with the dream of changing children's lives, and end up bitter and cynical. When they see the reality of their job, the 60+ hour weeks (including grading and prep time), the parents who refuse to let their children do homework or won't come to parent-teacher meetings, the insane regulations... it breaks them down. It extinguishes their passion.

There is not one teacher in the country who is in it for the money or benefits. They could all make more money and have better lives doing virtually anything else. They've worked hard, studied, bled, taken on horrible loads of debt, and sacrificed years of their lives to be in the classroom.

And this is how we treat them.

Vielman:

First of all, show me hard source for your allegation against Beck and Rush. Second, try googling teacher compensation and you'll find that the actual figure isn't off much from $100 grand.

Stop posting the BS about teachers low pay! Take the time to look up what the worst teacher your child had and tell me they are under paid.

http://www.postcrescent.com/article/99999999/APC0110/80221166/DataMine-Search-Wisconsin-teacher-salaries

Billionaire Koch Brothers are Behind Scott Walker's Effort to Kill Public Unions in Wisconsin.

But instead of demonizing unions for expecting what we should all expect: decent pay and benefits for the hard work we do

Hard work? You must not be talking about the Postal Mailhandlers Union I belong to. We could do away with 1/3 of the Postal Service's workforce and probably not miss a beat.

Here's how it works in my union. The union official works excrutiatingly slow. No sense of urgency whatsoever. His work backs up. He hopes management will see this and see we need more jobs. NEVER works that way. Instead management gets a bust-butt worker to go help him. Now the bust-butt worker is doing his job and their job while getting the same pay and benefits and the union officials do and the other lazy bums. There is no production quota in unions. Its sad. No pride in their work and unions foster this environment.

Shugga Bear, I agree!

Getthefacts, I'm behind Walker as well! There is no need for a union/governemt relationship. Private sector is another story.

Second, try googling teacher compensation and you'll find that the actual figure isn't off much from $100 grand.

total @!$%#ing bull@!$%#, no explanation necessary. Only a moron would actually believe this statement, go talk to a teacher...

In addition, I know how Walker could have avoided massive layoffs. He could have NOT signed onto his most recent spate of taxcuts, and then the budget would have remained balanced...

Stop posting the BS about teachers low pay! Take the time to look up what the worst teacher your child had and tell me they are under paid.

http://www.postcrescent.com/article/99999999/APC0110/80221166/DataMine-Search-Wisconsin-teacher-salaries

thanks for the link. By the way, I just searched on last names starting with "S", and clicked on about 20 different names randomly to see their salaries. Obviously this is not scientific, but I didn't see a single teacher making more than $66k in salary and the bulk were in the neighborhood of $38k. Yeah, they're SO overpaid....

Collective bargaining is like having the only nuclear bomb in the neighborhood, and the unions have been using it's leverage to RAPE the tax payers for too long and if it is not eliminated we'll be back to the same old ways of over taxation to hand out monies to less than desirable workers all for the sake of the union label.

@ AZchzhd, i'm sure your probably included in that 1/3 that needs to be let go? or are you one of the "hard workers". you have good and bad employees in any company, has nothing to do with unions

DrowningGrover If you are in WI then use the link below to deal in FACTS! The lowest paid teacher my child had makes $43,000/year with another 18,000 in fringe. She's a 3rd year teacher and hasn't been corrupted by her union brother & sisters yet. She is still in it for the kids.

http://www.postcrescent.com/article/99999999/APC0110/80221166/DataMine-Search-Wisconsin-teacher-salaries

you have good and bad employees in any company, has nothing to do with unions

Sure does have everything to do with unions. Unions are the reason the deadbeats still have a job, and they know it, and exploit it. In "any company," you can fire the deadbeats and get someone who will do the work. In a union, they practically have to die for the company to be able to get rid of them.

what this creep is saying is all B.S. and everybody knows it. He gave away that big pile of money to big corporations the second he stepped in to office yet he says he needs to strip the unions bargaining power to fix their state deficit. They need to recall this BUM. They did it to Grey Davis, they need to do that here. He is a dog on a leash for the Koch Brother and their buddies. People should fear allowing this to happen. This is nothing more than breaking the backs of union and middle class people. Another hypocrite screaming about the deficit while filling the pockets of the big corporations who put us in this crappy situation to begin with. This man is a liar and a thief.

Well all i c is tax cuts and lower wages as their solution, can't see how that will balance or lower @!$%#.

"Wis. Governor says union bill is 'incredibly fair":
It is a sure bet that the Rep. WI Gov. and all the rest of the Republicans there will eventually have this come back to slap the Gestapos in the face when the 70 K protesters turn against them in throngs at the voting polls in 2012. When the Unions said they'd pay into the pensions and health care, there is NO VALID REASON for taking away the arbitration rights, except under the guise of being "Control Freak Gestapos" that will ensure that the power, corruption, greed, and more money remains in the politicians' own pockets. With that many people showing up for protests, there's no way the politicians are doing what the Constituents want (not anymore than they did in Egypt or other such places). The WI politicians are not interested in the least bit as to the wishes of the WI Constituents. How many of the politicians placed cuts/caps on their annual salary, health care, pension, and benefits? Was that even on the "chop block"? Most like not! Exactly how much have they taken away from the elite besides giving them more tax break exemptions?? Did they take away their lobbyists (which is no different than the unions) from the elite big businesses (who are financially supporting the elimination of worker unions)? In the end those lobbyists, who want to force out all the unions for the complete control, cost the tax payers far more money than the Unions. The Republicans won't be happy until they take away the freedom of speech from the everyday worker just as was done under the Bush/Chaney era. Remember that when comes to 2012. The Republicans have not changed at all and look out only for the wealthy such as: done last Dec. in Congress when they held the middle class, elderly, and poor as hostages until the elite had their tax breaks taken care of FIRST. Their is no fairness of balance with what WI is currently doing.

@ azchhd - you never answered my question. you part of that 1/3 that can be cut or are you such as awesome worker. Bet there is someone else who makes you look fukin lazy!

union, non union, there are those who work at a steady pace and then there are those who work like they are on speed all day, so what.

Where do you live, MSpielman? From what you said, 23k is the starting salary, and low compared to my state, Washington. In 2006 average starting salary for a WA state teacher was 30,974, ranked 27th in the nation. The average teachers' salary was 46,326 in 2006, but by 2099 was 54,033--not bad, from my perspective of broke, and at least they got an increase, not a decrease as many private sector folks did.

Unfortunately, it appears the Wisconsin teachers are going to have to learn to live with less and with no collective bargaining. It's rotten and it stinks, but it isn't anything that many of us in this country haven't been forced to do. We are broke as a nation, and we still have numerous wars and military bases to fund. We have many QEs ahead, courtesy of the Bernanke. It's a mistake to think we can survive this financial crisis by doing what we've always done, only cutting assistance and services for the poor, elderly and disabled.

I don't know how removing any RIGHT is good for any American! Anti-union or not, the state should not be removing any groups RIGHT to negotiate, next they will tell us in the private sector we don't have the right to ask for a raise! It is a slippery slope when it comes to Rights!

Those who sacrifice freedom in the name of liberty deserve neither. Benjamin Franklin.

@Ken-319843...you said "but, of course, there is no conflict whatsoever for Republicans who are paid for and sponsored by large corporate interests, right?!"

The difference I see is that the public sector unions are bought and paid for with taxpayer dollars by the politicians the unions help get elected into office over and over and over again.

Republicans taking donations from "large corporate interests" means that they are not financing their campaigns off the backs of the taxpayers but with dollars from privately held corporations who choose to donate to their campaigns.



So, a question for our conversative friends here:

What is fair pay for the people who educate your children? Where in the private sector is there a comparable job? Mine? I'm an adult educator for a large healthcare company. Is my pay rate and benefit package a good source of comparasion?

I'd love to see at least 5 of you man up and answer this question with actual numbers, not some BS rhetoric.

Lay them off and remove the politicians who fled the state from office. Just because the unions own them doesn't mean we need adults acting like spoiled children.

union, non union, there are those who work at a steady pace and then there are those who work like they are on speed all day, so what.

I am one of those on speed. I take pride in my job. Then there are those that dont do crap. That applies to most union officials. And they spend most of my union dues that I pay supporting the others that dont do crap in arbitration and reducing disciplinary actions to a slap on the wrist. Then they do it again. Round and round we go.

Interesting that Union Money confiscated from its members appears to be the way Obama expects to get re-elected however, his Strong Opposition to the Supreme Court Ruling that Americans have the right to voice their opinions from their Voluntary Contributions from Companies is why he needs the Unions even more in 2012. Looks like you Union People will see your dues go up to pay to keep Obama. You know your Leadership won't take any pay cuts from their Multimillion dollar salaries you folks pay them.

How did this "we're going to have to learn to live with less" line take hold? The Wall Street bonuses are right back where they were before the crash, but taxes can't be raised on the wealthy. American corporations and banks are sitting on their growing profits and not hiring.

They're getting more while we're being told we have to make do with less?

Here is the perfect example of why they need to strip them of their bargaining. You have hundreds and thousands of teachers getting fraudulent sick notes from their doctors. Damaging their students eductation. Caring for themselves instead of the students. The same thing happens when they negotiate. They hold students education behind their pay raises and benefits. I would fully support taking the videos and pictures from the protests and if any school teacher had a sick not written and they are photographed at the rally, they should be fired. I work in a union and do not support their political views. I should not have to pay dues for something they believe in and not myself. I have no problem not having union representation.

****There is no constitutional right to have a union and bargaining rights!!!! So to state they have a right for bargaining is not correct. If so, the states have the right not to give them bargaining rights. Especially as a taxpayer, they are using my money for their union.

Carl W,

The unions in Wisconsin already agreed to give up the wages and benefits Walker wanted them to. How does it help Wisconsin's budget to strip them of their collective bargaining rights too?

LOL! So Carl, what would the unions then collectively bargain for? LOL! You guys are a hoot!

I think both Vielman and spider are right about the salary. Fresh new teachers in Texas bottom line salary is about 27k. While teachers with doctoral degrees, 20+ years experience could make as much as 70k, plus all the benefits then yes as spider said (top 1%) teachers indeed are making 100k a year.

The State of Wisconsin by its on accounting projected a 121.4 million dollar BUDGET SURPLUS for 2012. Let me repeat that - a 121.4 million dollar BUDGET SURPLUS for 2012 One more time - a 121.4 million dollar BUDGET SURPLUS for 2012! At least one more time - a 121.4 million dollar BUDGET SURPLUS for 2012! Our good Republican governor first order of business when taking office was to piss it all away in tax breaks for corporations and multinational (130 million to be exact). His second order of business was to declare a deficit emergency! So let me get this straight a short fall in the budget created by him to benefit the rich is to be paid in turn by those of us who can least afford it the working men and women of Wisconsin. And to add insult to injury after emptying their wallets they then have to give up some rights as well. This is without question all about destroying collective bargaining. Wrap it up all you want in lies, half truths and misdirection it is still about giving more power to the money elite and doing so at the expense of working Americans.

"Matt L-1901963: The teachers already agreed to the financial terms. Why do you need to strip them of their rights?"

1st- Collective Bargaining is not a right- Never has been, never will. There is a right to assemble and have free speech- which is what is happening now. This is healthy- though disruptive. CB is a tool used by the Unions to empower a large group of people to coerce an employer to bend to their will (Do what we want or we ALL walk!!). It leave an employer no choice but to give in and lose power in their own business.

2nd- Collective Bargaining, if left unchecked, will just make things worse in the future. It can be put off for now, but everything being given up will be back on the menu at a later date and they will be back in the same mess as they are now! Without collect bargaining- the unions have no teeth and it will be up to the individual to negotiate for their pay and not leave it to a babysitter (the union reps)- just like the rest of us in the working world.

I have not a lot of sympathy for the unions-

Tank- buy a clue. That figure comes from a budget release as of June 2010- BUT fails to take into account the still left to be paid bills totalling $315M+. Do the math and you get, yes, A DEFICIT!

source:

The GOP governor has already won the financial concessions from state employees that he says he needs to help reduce the state budget problem. Stripping the employees of collective bargaining rights, too, when they are demonstrating a willingness to modify previously agreed-upon contract terms RIGHT NOW, is simply asinine. Getting the necessary concessions isn't enough for him; the punk governor wants an ideological win as well. It's self and politics first, as usual for the GOP.

As far as I can tell, the state employees up there have proven themselves capable of accepting reality when it is necessary. They have agreed with the financial terms handed down by the governor. When he frames his argument against collective bargaining as a "long-term solution to help balance the budget", he becomes a liar. In the longer-term, Wisconsin can expect higher revenues as the economy continues to recover. That's the point that is so often missed in this. The budget woes being experienced by states across the nation have been exaggerated by the recession. Stripping collective bargaining rights from state employees isn't even NECESSARY to balance the budget in the longer-term. The recovery will take care of that. My state was running billion dollar surpluses just five or six years ago. Now we're billions in the hole. The only difference is decreased revenue, thanks to the recession. Once that passes, so will the budget emergency. Wisconsin is no different. "Pushing the problem a few years into the future" is more than good enough to fix what's wrong right now. But it's not good enough for the GOP. Tough luck.

I'm a "never-union guy" who backs the Wisconsin public employees unions 110%, under the circumstances. The governor is CLEARLY playing politics...and he's playing to his "base", as well.

Matt L-1901963: The teachers already agreed to the financial terms. Why do you need to strip them of their rights?

You'll receive all kinds of answers to this question, but the real answer is so corporate America can chip away at worker's rights. The truth: Eliminating collective bargaining will not save any jobs nor will it help the budget deficit of Wisconsin.

Unions are not destroying America...corporate greed is destroying America.

Whoa, dude, their 'rights'? Their 'RIGHTS?'

There's nothing in the US Constitution or Wisconsin State Constitution about unions or any union 'rights'. Collective bargaining is a deal between union members and their UNION, not the government workers and the State.

The State and the unions can either agree to terms, or NOT! It's just a piece of paper! Any contract can be terminated by either party at any time! Deal!

These public employees should be down at their UNION OFFICE picketing! In fact, they are guilty of obstruction, public trespass and malicious mischief by disrupting operations of the State for the taxpaying citizens of Wisconsin.

Get back to work you bums! That's what you have UNION REPS FOR!

Every teacher and every state worker who left their school or point of state employment to participate in these Madison protests should be fired! And, especially those from the radical liberal cesspool known as the University of Wisconsin. There's no place in government work for unionization. I've read the proposed law, and it is a very fair proposal. Wish I could get an almost guaranteed cost of living adjustment each year with the option of a voter referendum on getting even more.

Done that,

1st. By your definition privileges afforded you by the US Constitution as an American Citizen are rights. The US Constitution allows States to do the same and more to the point by way of there own State Constitutions! The right of collective bargaining is set forth by and for the people of Wisconsin by their own State Constitution. Let me guess your a big "States Rights" proponent?

2nd. If Corporate powers are left unchecked and ultimately become the only entities benefiting from the Citizens United ruling we will wake up in a world where everything is privatized including the government. Your local police will be just another version of Black Water. If your house is burning down they will ask for your credit card information. Your water bills will climb to 3-4 hundred dollars a month and If the local plant poisons your wife and children you will have no recourse. And for those among us that still have work we will be working hundred hour weeks without benefits or overtime and for less then minimum wage.

3rd. Corporations, multinationals and monopolies (and other so called perversions of Capitalism) are the anthesis of Free Enterprise and Democracy.

4th. I would rather live in a so called "Socialist" hell then your version of heaven anytime!

Herman C - Yes, believe it or not, worker's do have rights. Child labor laws are also not part fo the US constitution, so should we send children down into the coal mines again? Just in case you are unaware, there was a movement in the early 20th century in the US called the Progressive movement which brought about minimum wages, 40 hour work weeks, child labor laws, etc. It was a reaction to corporate corruption and greed. Do you really think we should go backwards almost 100 years??? I'm constantly amazed at the total lack of basic US history knowledge by my fellow Americans.

But instead of demonizing unions for expecting what we should all expect: decent pay and benefits for the hard work we do, the far right has worked hard to cultivate an image of an "overpaid, lazy union worker" to get non-union middle-class Americans riled up against union members. It's not all that different than cultivating the image of the "welfare queen who drives a cadillac" as an excuse to cut critical programs that help the poor.

unions protect the lazy worker. FACT. you have specifically designed jobs that make it tough to manage in a fluid 21st century workplace. i need someone to turn on that machine, oh i can't do that - that's billy's job and he's on break. really? if you don't like the way a supervisor looks at you, you file a grievance. what a load of crap.

So, a question for our conversative friends here:

What is fair pay for the people who educate your children? Where in the private sector is there a comparable job? Mine? I'm an adult educator for a large healthcare company. Is my pay rate and benefit package a good source of comparasion?

how about private school teachers? who make less than their public school counterparts - both in salary and benefits? starting salary for new teachers where i live - 27k. private school - 21k. and no big benefit plan.

To those of you complaining about how much teachers make.

I know some teachers and there are MANY after school activities where they can sign up and easily make more money. These activities pay well over $20 per hour, sometimes $60 for less than 1.5 hours.

It seems some people are not calculating that they only work 9 months out of the year, and pay is representative of that. So to figure the equivalent 12 month pay, take that salary (38K example from a post above) and multiply by 12 months and divide by 9 months. 38K would be equivalent to over 50K if it was a 12 month job. As stated above, there are a lot of extra jobs these teachers can do over the summers to make extra ca$h and still get a LOT more vacation than the rest of us. You can't expect their salaries to be higher... for not working.

I agree fully with FDR about this issue /

‎"The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service," President Franklin D. Roosevelt wrote in 1937 to the head of the National Federation of Federal Employees. In the private sector..., organized employees and the employer meet across the bargaining table as (theoretical) equals. But in the public sector, said FDR, "the employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress." Allowing public-employee unions to engage in collective bargaining would mean opening the door to the manipulation of government policy by a privileged private interest.

Public workers DO NOT need protection from the public. Public workers work for us, they DO NOT work for a company or a corporation. Apparently the public needs protection from public workers. The longer this drags out the more the Teachers Unions will be weakened. You think people are going to stand for teachers calling in sick so they can walk arounds with signs?? This is helping the conservative movement not the teachers. People are angry with unions, because they feel that they have an unfair advantage. Public service workers do not need a union, it is absolutely unfair. FDR was right in 1937 and it still holds true today!!

Ken-319843

"Brian2937636: ...but, of course, there is no conflict whatsoever for Republicans who are paid for and sponsored by large corporate interests, right?!"

As opposed to dems who are paid for and sponsored by union interests? LOL

Left brainers are funny.

ltp: how about private school teachers? who make less than their public school counterparts

That's not true in Texas. I teach at a private university and make almost TWICE what I would be making at a public university. One of my good friends is trying to get on with a private high school which would mean a $10K/year raise in pay for her coupled with MUCH better benefits. What states are you referring to, because it certainly isn't that way where I live in Texas.

Hey Edward:

Stop posting the BS about teachers low pay! Take the time to look up what the worst teacher your child had and tell me they are under paid.

Thanks for the link! I looked up one of my favorite teachers and she has a MASTERS DEGREE, has several years experience and is only making 56,000/year - she's around 75K with benefits. That is underpaid and a shame.

I have a great idea - let's take more away from her so she quits. That way she can be replaced with someone that can't get any other job out there and doesn't have a degree in education. I mean, let's be serious, if Walker gets his way, many of our teachers will be walking - to other, better paid careers. Home schooling will become more appealing.

DAVE FROM KENTUCKY, when I lived in DC we spent 13,000 per child per school year. When I lived in Atlanta it was nearly $9000 per child.

Times that by 25 students it equals $325,000 per classroom, where did ALL THAT MONEY GO DAVE???

9000 per kid in Atl. equals $225,000 per classroom, these #'s are not sustainable and a total joke. America's education system is in shambles and Teachers Unions are partly to blame!

And people say we need to spend more on education. You mean to tell me it costs 13,000 to teach one child, HOGWASH!!

Vegas Mom, 75K, summers off and little contribution to Ins or retirement is underpaid? Annualize that salary and tell me shes under paid.

There are plenty of people with degrees in education in waiting in line to take her job. Let her walk.

I know a large number of people is MBA's making less than that.

PS I thought all these teachers are in it for the kids? At least thats what the full page add said in yesterdays paper.

Call it Freedom of Assembly (United StatesConstitution) or Freedom of Association (Canadian Constitution) the rights afforded workers as to collective bargaining are well within the confines of constitutionality and arise out of the same. For anyone to ascertain that these workers are not being asked to give up rights are for the most part essentially wrong and even I would argue un-American. As of the "Citizens United" ruling by the United States Supreme Court (judicial activism at its best) - corporations are now "super citizens" with more rights then you or I. Where in the Constitution is there any mention or even inference that business entities have the rights of citizens? Ironic and hypocritically you would do away with unions but you would allow corporations and offshore multinationals to own the political process outright and by degree the government itself.

BTW, I am in a union, the United States Postal Mailhandlers Union. And I think the union is so self serving, only supports the weak, and not to mention, most, if not all of the union officials are the WORST workers of them all. Sad but true. I get paid the same and get the same benefits as the bum next to me who does nothing. THAT is unfair. I dont get a pension. Nobody hired after 1983 gets one. We get to contribute to a 401k that the PO matches 3%. Thats modest. We make about the same as teachers without the 4 months of vacations a year. i could go on and on. I support Walker.

A Union is good enough for you but not for others? , congratulations! Wow!

What wonderland do you live in that gives teachers four months of vacation? Do you have any clue about the teaching profession? Can you fill us in? You do understand how teacher pay works (vacation and all, right?) You understand that work doesn't stay at work, but those are inconvenient facts. You are postal worker, how often do you take work home? How often do you have to worry about the long term development of your postal customers? Do you often have to wipe a postal customer's butt or nose or deal with temper tantrums or other issues they may have. Sure we know all jobs have their issues and we all know about "postal" workers but lets be serious the level that teachers deal is a little more personal.

Maybe you should quit your Union that you hate so much and join those with whom you share an ideology that makes far better sense.

Gov. Walker-

If this bill is indeed "fair" as you claim then include ALL public worker's unions (including police, fire, state troopers, etc.) not just the the unions that didn't endorse and pay you off, uh I mean contribute to your campaign fund.

ALL unions are included in this or NO unions are included. It's only "fair", right?

Edward - I am not a teacher and I am not "in it for the kids" - talk to a teacher if you want to discuss that. I am in this for more personal reasons - I have kids in school. I do understand that a teacher needs to make a living. There are not many benefits to becoming a teacher - I want there to be good ones in our schools.

Since I am not "in it for the kids" I understand that in many schoolsthe work environment is not safe, they are in constant battle with behavioral issues that cannot be managed in the school, most teachers have to purchase their own supplies, they do hours and hours of work at home in the evenings (most other jobs that would be considered overtime at time and a half - double time past 12 hours) - and that time more than makes up for the couple of months they have off in the summer. They do not get the whole summer off like the kids. Maybe you have no idea what it takes to be a teacher. Or maybe you do and you just don't care.

Vegas Mom, 75K, summers off and little contribution to Ins or retirement is underpaid? Annualize that salary and tell me shes under paid.

There are plenty of people with degrees in education in waiting in line to take her job. Let her walk.

I know a large number of people is MBA's making less than that.

PS I thought all these teachers are in it for the kids? At least thats what the full page add said in yesterdays paper.

Here's the thing - I don't want the good teachers to WALK - I want them to STAY and like their jobs. It's strange that you wouldn't want the same thing. Maybe you don't have kids in school? I don't want an underpaid teacher to take her place. Reduce $$ and you reduce productivity.

You can say whatever you want on here without backing it up but I doubt you know "a large number of people with MBA's" making less than a teacher's salary. Your link to prove that teachers are overpaid was "debunked" since it shows that they are not overpaid.

Maybe if Walker didn't give the huge tax breaks to huge corporations like the Koch brothers, then we wouldn't be in the situation. I wish the tea party could see now that they are being used. Too bad... they will eventually.

Keeping good teachers is just a small part of all this. How about keeping good correctional officers or social workers or veteran service officers - so many others are impacted by this. Look up their salaries. I am not even going to get into the number of these families that are now down to one income. This is a shame. But don't worry, the Koch brothers just got a little bit richer.

Ummm, teachers will not lose their collective bargaining. Read the bill. The unions will not be able to hold your job over your head and force you to be a union member. I guess Liberals love to make the poor guy pay for the privilege to work. Union dues = Democratic votes. And what if you do not like the use of your dues going to political groups you do not support? All brought to you by the union thugs.

FYI, we have labor laws. The unions are a thing of the past. Besides, F.D.R., the liberal hero, said he was against public unions. There is a big difference in Public unions and private unions.

Something else; Why are all the people here, who are simply pointing out the facts of the bill, having their post collapsed?

Where is the fairness , why you collapse comments in favor of the Bill. I do not see anything wrong in many of those.

Burn - You are dead wrong. The bill will drastically impact the teachers (and other public workers) with respect to collective bargaining - it's the police, firefighters, et al who will have those rights still intact. I suggest YOU re-read the bill.

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-his-budget-repair-/

MSPIELMAN,

Where do you live? What state, because dude, I think your making up numbers. $21,000 a year for a teacher, prove it to me dude, I don't believe that in a NY minute. You wife is a teacher and she's on food stamps? Something is not right about your posts.

Many of you seem to be delusional in that the WI Governor wants to strip the public sector Unions of their right to collectively bargain. He wants to leave them able to collectively bargain for salary, just not benefits.

This is an important distinction, because benefits are often able to be doled out by government officials with no real accounting for them, and wind up as unfunded liabilities kicked down the road for someone else to deal with whether they are responsible or not. It's this key obfuscation of the costs of them which is the main problem and the main reason this aspect of restricting the collective bargaining privledge for benefits should be passed. This would leave the union members able to collectively bargain for salary though, and that is key and why this is actually a fair bargain. They could if they were unable to raise their benefits bargain for even greater salaries to compensate for the benefits they weren't getting. But this is better for everyone because those salaries must be accounted for and thus it will bring clarity to the negotiations over the true price of their labor.

Those arguing for those benefits to be unable to be collectively bargained aren't asking to utterly dismantle collective bargaining rights in total. They are looking to close the obfuscation loophole unions have used to jam unaccounted for debts onto the taxpayer. Those backing this loophole remaining open are looking to allow those unions to exploit the taxpayers and future citizens of the State with unmitigated and unaccounted for debt.

Didn't it ever occur to some of you right wing union and teacher hating people that the Dem senators ARE doin their jobs of representing their constituents, i.e. the Democrats who elected them to their offices and who oppose Gov. Walker's policies?!

klm

What wonderland do you live in that gives teachers four months of vacation?

I dont know, lets see. Summer break from early June to Labor Day. Thats 3 months. Then a week for fall break, a week for spring break, 2 weeks for Christmas, and assorted Mondays throughout the year for Federal holidays. The equals about 4 months.

These teachers arent too worried about the kids either if they are spending all their time protesting and not teaching this past week, shutting schools down. Even the woman in charge of the teachers association told them to get their butts back in class.

A Union is good enough for you but not for others?

Unions should not be in the public sector, period. They arent negotiating with their bosses in collective bargaining, the people. Its the people and their property taxes that have to fund the unions and their pensions. In WI, they are paying $4,000-$10,000 a year in property taxes for modest homes and rising. What point is enough enough?

LyndaAZ, I'm not a right winger actually I can't stand social conservatism, and I am not a Republican. But lets get one thing straight, the Democratic Senators that fled the State and shirked their duty are not representing their consituents, they aren't representing anything by failing to show up to work and do their civic duty by voting on the measure. They are directly circumventing democracy, and that is abhorrent.

It's time for the union members to call his bluff. Let him lay the people off! Instead of the union members shouldering the cost alone, make EVERYONE feel the pain. Layoffs would make everyone feel the pain - including the residents that have demanded the crap the government has supplied. I work for a city government. We have taken concessions and still listen to the public bitch and moan about how much we make. That's okay - you are paying for the concession I was forced to take. I have adjusted the amount of work I do to the pay I am now making.

Safety (Police and Fire) have the most lucrative pensions and benefits - funny how they are excluded from this.

This is all about union busting and I hope the workers hold out. Let the mommies and daddies school their kids if they think the teachers are too highly compensated. The teachers aren't in business to give charity and they don't owe your kids anything. They, and government workers agree to take a job for a certain amount of pay - it's a contract.

Hey LyndaAZ - you are so right! I want the dem senators to stay in IL until Walker decides to negotiate. His job is to do what is right for the people of Wisconsin - which includes all of the people in opposition of this extreme bill. People can criticize our dem senators all they want but how about Walker giving all the tax breaks to the huge corporations like the Koch brothers just before crying deficit? Or introducing this bill and wanting a vote in one week. Come on. I hope they do stay away because this is not right. "Silent majority" - please. How about all the people who are now publicly stating that they regret voting for Walker... in a year we can begin working on a recall for Walker.

Didn't it ever occur to some of you right wing union and teacher hating people that the Dem senators ARE doin their jobs of representing their constituents, i.e. the Democrats who elected them to their offices and who oppose Gov. Walker's policies?!

This New York Times article does a nice job of summing this up:

It won't let me have my link so check out: Wisconsin Power Play on the NY Times website.

I don't know about you, but I don't want the Koch Brothers and the big corporations who have screwed and continue to screw us calling the shots for this country's workers. This is exactly where this road is leading and we should all be fearful of this. Just the fact that this buffoon governor owes his election to these people, immediately gives them tax breaks, whines about the deficit and then wants to recoup that money by destroying union worker's ability to collectively bargain due to the fact the state mishandled the pension money by investing in the crooks who brought this country down in the first place is just wrong and everybody knows it.

The Koch Brothers are hugely wealthy people who inherited their fortune on a silver platter and they happen to be on the top ten polluters list in this country. They have backed the Republican campaigns and prove that money can buy anything. Well, they are buying the union and middle class livelyhood. They are pompous, arrogant and greedy and plan to have complete control of the working force of this country. They are breaking the middle class people. They are big oil and many other things. They want minimal socia services for the needy and less oversight of industry, expecially environmental regulation which the Republican controlled house is trying to give them right now. They held a summit in Texas which was a training session for the Tea Party activists.

I don't want these kind of people running our country. They are getting a bigger and bigger grip by funding the Republicans and Tea party to do their dirty work in the name of "doing what the American people want". Hogwash.

The Madison Blues

Collective Bargaining in the Public Sector

These pretty well refute Krugman's shameless pandering.

I dont know, lets see. Summer break from early June to Labor Day. Thats 3 months. Then a week for fall break, a week for spring break, 2 weeks for Christmas, and assorted Mondays throughout the year for Federal holidays. The equals about 4 months.

Still don't know much about how those teacher holidays huh? Teachers are still on campus for a couple of weeks after the students leave...its a thing called grades. Teachers return to campus a couple of weeks before school starts to prepare their class rooms. I'd say that equals at least one month.

Teachers take their work home at night and on weekends and on break and many take mandatory classes during the summer. Many have children of their own they actually get to spend a couple of hours with.

Another nice little fact is that teachers don't get a hiring advantage on their exams like the US Postal service that automatically gets POINTS added. But I f we want to bitch about the perks other people get...hell lets bitch. Postal workers get to go home when their route is done. They get to wear shorts to work. Someone always has it better in someway.

Basically I read your posts and you are union but you work harder than all the other lazy SOBs who are union and you deserve more and they deserve less and teachers are crap blah blah blah you just sound pissed off.

Vegas, you didn't debunk anything. You stated your "opinion" that 75K wasn't overpaid for a 10 month year. You also stated your "opinion" that teachers "they do hours and hours of work at home in the evenings (most other jobs that would be considered overtime at time and a half - double time past 12 hours)". I know personally know 4 teachers and none of them work near what you've described. In fact most complete their "work" during work time. I also know a number of MBA making less than that. What sheltered world do you live in that you don't know grad students who are unemployed or employed at low wages?

I'll tell you why I don't care if the teachers walk, because most of the have long ago lost site of why they are there. They have been corrupted by their peers and are negative about the students they teach. I've watched it happen to three of my friends who are teachers. I still have hope for the 4th as she has been bucking the trend and in her 6th year teaching in the public school system.

The public pays for all government employees. We in the private sector have suffered pay & benefit cuts along with increased workload. As a direct result of this I expect them to do the same since I pay their wage. As I ststed before, I see no reason for a union when the government is the employer.

By the way, if you are thinking you are talking to a right wing radical you are wrong! I am politically an Independent who is fiscally conservative. As a matter of fact I believe education is the only thing that will save this country and I'm willing to put my $ were my mouth is. I'd gladly pay more in taxes to provide Tech College students a free ride if they maintain an acceptable GPA. State University students would get their first 2 years free with the same GPA requirement.

Nwnative, this isn't about big corporations against the "little guy" though, that's the problem. It is disingenuous to conflate private sector unionism and public sector unionism. The public sector unions have directly pitted the power of the union against the people. In a private company unions can extract concessions commensurate with their power and the only ones who pay the price are either those in control of the finances of the company or the consumers who higher prices might be passed along to. In the case of those in control of the finances, they probably have enough to bear the burden. In the case of the consumers, they are willing participants if they elect to purchase the good or service. Not so in the public sector. In the public sector, those who wind up having to foot the bill are the taxpayers.

Unions make up ~7% of the private sector. Unions make up ~36% of the public sector workforce. That means these Unions are burdening the vast majority of the electorate including most middle class Americans, and they have little recourse in terms of protecting themselves from them without resorting to electing polticians who will in fact stand up to them and reign them in with measures like these. It's one thing when unions are protecting their members against exploitation, it's quite another when they are acting to harm the public and common good.

Hopeful American - "That's okay - you are paying for the concession I was forced to take. I have adjusted the amount of work I do to the pay I am now making."

You are a prime example of what is wrong with unions

To All Union people

Collective Bargaining is NOT a RIGHT it is a LAW.

The LAW giveth and the LAW taketh away.

LIVE WITH IT.

This is amazing! I have never seen so many collapsed comments as long as I have been on the vine ! If I try for a trenchant comment it will probably get collapsed...WGAF

MSpielman

Where I Iive, a new teacher fresh out of college with a shiny new teaching license gets paid $21k/year.

What state do you live in? Because back in 2000 when I was going for my degree to teach HS Art, the national average salary for a starting teacher was $40k/year (that was over a decade ago). So you might think about moving either to another county/state.

DrowningGrover

Unions = Socialism = Communism.

LOL, go pick up a book please...

Why don't you look up an Interview with Karl Marx that was in the Chicago Tribune, January 5 1879

I- “Do European socialists look upon the movement in America as a serious one?”

Marx- “Yes: it is the natural outcome of the country’s development. It has been said that the movement has been imported by foreigners. When labor movements became disagreeable in England, fifty years ago, the same thing was said; and that was long before socialism was spoken of. In American, since 1857, only has the labor movement become conspicuous.^[26] Then trade unions began to flourish; then trades assemblies were formed, in which the workers in different industries united; and after that came national labor unions. If you consider this chronological progress, you will see that socialism has sprung up in that country without the aid of foreigners, and was merely caused by the concentration of capital and the changed relations between the workmen and employers.”

Postal workers get to go home when their route is done

Thats only carriers, who make up about 20% of the postal workforce. The rest of us work in large processing centers on 2nd or graveyard shift. They dont get to see their kids either. But we arent complaining. A job is a job. You dont seem to have the full understanding of the postal service.

On top of the 4 months I mentioned, dont they get personal days as well?

We are getting a little off track here. The point is what teachers in WI would be giving up is not a big deal in comparison to what the rest of the country has to deal with. I am telling teachers unions to take it in stride and consider all the good they still have. There is no cut in salary. Walker made it clear that if this isnt passed, then 6,000 teachers are getting axed.

Basically I read your posts and you are union but you work harder than all the other lazy SOBs who are union and you deserve more and they deserve less and teachers are crap blah blah blah you just sound pissed off.

Yes thats pretty much the gist of it. After awhile you get tired of doing more while watching some of your coworkers coast all day. You get tired of management calling on you to go pick up the slack for those not doing their job. And management is powerless to do anything because the union shields the slow, deadbeat workers. The only recourse for management is to grab a hard worker to "help."

Teachers are crap? lol I never said that. I said unions are crap. Big difference.

EdwardWI:

No, I am smart. I'll be damned if I do the same amount of work for less pay. When I took my job it was for a certain amount of hours, for a certain amount of benefits, for a certain amount of pay. It was a contract the city I work for entered into when they hired me.

Now they have choosen to bridge the budget gap by taking pay from me and my co-workers. Since they are no longer paying me what they agreed to, I am now longer doing the work for that pay. All seems fair to me.

And this concession is in addition to other concessions in benefits our union has made over the last 15 years.

I have never been a big-time pro-union person. But my belief is that unions were the equalizer to employer's treating employees badly. I have always believed that it is a balancing act. In this case, the governor just wants to bust the union and make them t he scapegoat. And, he just wants the employees to feel the pain. EVERYONE needs to feel the pain. Larger class sizes, less services, less entitlements - whatever it takes for every person in Wisconsin to share the pain.

A thought . . . why doesn't he look to the state's illegal immigrant problem. Just getting them out of the school system, medical system, and every other entitlement they enjoy would probably fix the problem instead of taking money from Americans!

Is there anybody else here that is sick of all the lies and deception spread throughout most of this forum? Is there anybody else here that understands that most of this misinformation started from a hired gun that is highly paid to twist words with deliberate deception and tell out-right lies while knowing that thousands of legions of loyal fools will willingly accept his lies as truth and work hard to spread those lies? Is there anybody else here that sees the utter futility in debating such fools? Finally, is there anybody else here with the brains, fortitude and gonads to seek the truth on their own without joining a political cult as they constantly repeat tired old mantras.

Not many. Most of these posts are from idiots that have jumped on a bandwagon because they are too damned lazy and stupid to think for themselves. That's okay. These lemmings have been around since the beginning of time.

The problems began with mass communication such as the Internet. Don't get me wrong, I think it is invaluable. As with all great technological advances, there are serious growing pains.

We have given a massive voice to screwballs. While the rest of us calmly contemplate the serious problems we face today and search for meaningful solutions, the screwballs are screaming at the top of their lungs with useless mantras they got off cable television. Their voices are so loud that they mistakenly believe they are the majority. They become emboldened by sleazy politicians more than willing to embrace them.

I like this outlet. It holds a lot of promise to benefit all. At the same time, it's like fishing for something useful in a sea of trash. On the rare occasion where I find a forum with intelligent dialogue dedicated to solving serious problems, I am elated. Far too many times, my efforts are met with frustration as i witness mindless repetition and boring slogans from extremely noisy, but empty heads. So much for my fishing report of today.

Where I Iive, a new teacher fresh out of college with a shiny new teaching license gets paid $21k/year.

From the MacIver Institute: 2009 Average teacher salary not including benefits:

$52,644.00

The Average 90 percentile....$69,550.00

Which means that the average starting/ bottom ten percent are in the $30,00's

Average city of Milwaukee teacher income, including benefits....$100,005.00

Pretty darn good total income being paid for by a constituency with an average total income of $33,100.00 including benefits for a Milwaukee worker.

"Overall what we're talking about is something that's incredibly fair — it applies to me and my family

====================================

Somehow governor I don't see your job being unionized.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Done That

1st- Collective Bargaining is not a right- Never has been, never will. CB is a tool used by the Unions to empower a large group of people to coerce an employer to bend to their will (Do what we want or we ALL walk!!). It leave an employer no choice but to give in and lose power in their own business.

So done that, turn it around the other way. The employer decides he/she isn't making enough money and decides to cut wages, benefits, etc (w/o employee input) what recourse do non-unionized workers have? Basically the employer says ----- Do what I want or you're out of here.

You cons are hilarious. 6% of the American workforce, non governmental, and 33% of government workers are unionized. That is a small segment of the total American work force but it seems to be the most hated thing for you cons. Yet I bet every one of you would be in a union if you thought you were getting the pay and benefits your mind bestows on the.

Tank-

Done That is right- there is NO "right" to collective bargaining in either the US Constitution OR the Wis. state Constitution. Don't read something in that simply isn't there. Saying it doesn't make it true.

Where did the privatizing of police and fire fighters come in? They are and should always be a public sector job. But even FDR- the biggest Socialist we've ever had- said that the union in a public sector was a bad idea. Not all unions are bad and much good has come from SOME unions. But public sector unions are not a good idea. Private sector unions can be useful if they are being honest (most are not) with the people the represent.

I also believe unions should not be able to cast support behind political candidates- but neither should corporations. Most people I know that still belong to unions either have no idea who the union supports or does not agree with the choice- but it is not in their "best interest" to say anything about it. I was in a union for a short time. I can say neither good nor bad about it (wasn't there long enough to see much). I will agree that very large corporations are not good for our country. They drive too much- prices, wages, rules & laws, etc... The small business has a hard time keeping up. "Too Big to Fail" simply should not be a thought- let 'em fail!! It is good for society as a whole to have failure- we learn

It sounds like to me that you are a believer of the Great Society plan where everything is wonderful because we are all treated equal and have equal everything because of the government entity that makes it so. Life doesn't work that way. We are different and make different choices- and because of that- we get different results. There is no such thing as a way to make it all equal without the "haves" resenting the "have nots".

Sorry- I could not live under that kind of society- I need to have a culture that encourages me to work and have something to work for. If everything is just given- there is no incentive. So I will take this heaven over the Great Socialist hell you subscribe to.

Ken said:

"I don't know how removing any RIGHT is good for any American! Anti-union or not, the state should not be removing any groups RIGHT to negotiate, next they will tell us in the private sector we don't have the right to ask for a raise! It is a slippery slope when it comes to Rights!

Those who sacrifice freedom in the name of liberty deserve neither. Benjamin Franklin."

What is strange Ken, is the fact, that you always have had the right to ask for a raise from the company you work for, and nobody ever took that from you. The problem with unions is, they not only stick up for the good workers, but the deadbeats also, and that is only because of the dues the union gets from them. The company HAS to keep those who slow the process down, and why is that?

Also, one thing to remember is, those working at those government jobs, are not working for a company, but they ARE working for the tax payers. That person works in a department that has a set amount of money that goes for paying wages, and every time a union gets it`s way, that forces that department to ask for more money from the tax payers. The tax payers are getting sick and tired of it, when their pay doesn`t go up anymore, and the places they work are taking more benefits away from them, what makes the government workers think they are any better? They only force more out of the pockets of the tax payers. If the tax payers are going to be shafted by the economy, believe me, the government workers are going to have to pay the price right along with them, no ifs ands or buts about it. The tax payers have enough to worry about from those clowns that keep voting themselves pay raises without asking in Washington. They are like the deadbeat workers the unions stick up for in regular companies, and that is one power that needs to be taken away from those clowns right away.

One other thought, if government wages are that bad, why do those people stay at those jobs, and not go work for a company that can pay them more?

I see someone collapsed one of Mr. Rogers statements, again. And for what reason? Because you didn`t like what he said? Big deal, grow up and get over it. He didn`t break any rules of this forum. The only thing he did, was say something you don`t agree with. So, what is it that makes you, or your opinions so special that you take it upon yourself to try and silence his? When you do that, it only shows how low minded you are. I suggest you ditch the ego, and get a real life. And if you want someones statement removed, ask one of the Moderators.

Moderators, would you please restore his statement?

MJdeserves it

Because that's what this whole thing is about, killing Unions, any other excuse is a lie.

No, it is about "sustainability" you know that word you love so well? Unless, unless not so much when it is applied to you? :)

Unions should be killed off in the PUBLIC sector.

I support unions in private sector where market forces will keep worker demands from becoming too outrageous. The public sector is a monopoly with no competition. There are no such forces. Small cities and communities should not be forced to bargain against powerful unions period.

Actually, it is about MONEY to the teachers. It impacts them personally, so they freak out. Then the unions whip them into a frenzy...and to them it is about money as well.

This bill will stop the state from taking union dues from their workers so they'd have to pay the union directly.... union dues would become optional.

I wonder how many of the very same people saying they support the union will do so when paying them is optional. It is at this time when we all know what this is about - MONEY.

Money and power are the only thing these unions care about.

Does this include police and firefighters?

How are there no market forces ? What lack of market forces allowed Reagan to fire all the PATCO workers that went on strike? Same situation applies to every job. If you fail to show up to work, you can get fired.

There is no difference in public sector unions vs. private sector. Usually the government units prefer to make a deal with one set of negotiators rather than having to make thousands of contracts.

This POS governor's whole purpose is to destroy the union. It's not about finance, its pure politics.

Maybe the small comunities should take a seminar on negitiations?

How are there no market forces ?

If factory workers in plant A demand unreasonably higher wages, their products will cost more and they will loose business to Plant B. This will result in wages being reduced or layoffs at Plant A.

There are no such market forces in public sector because there is no competition.

Does this include police and firefighters?

No it doesn't, and it is just a coincidence that the police and fire unions supported Walker......

If factory workers in plant A demand unreasonably higher wages, their products will cost more and they will loose business to Plant B. This will result in wages being reduced or layoffs at Plant A.

There are no such market forces in public sector because there is no competition.

Nope.

If public workers in state A demand too much in wages/benefits, then the residents and businesses of state A will have to pay too much in taxes. If public workers in state B demand more reasonable wages/benefits, then taxes will be lower, attracting more businesses and residents from state A to state B.

Yes, there is competition and accountability in the public sector too.

And if all people have a First Amendment right to peaceably assemble and petition the government, whether they're assembling into a labor union or any other organization, they certainly don't give up this right just because of where they work.

I wonder how many of the very same people saying they support the union will do so when paying them is optional. It is at this time when we all know what this is about - MONEY.

So, when a union negotiates decent pay and benefits for you, you can choose to opt out of paying for the negotiations done on your behalf? You just want to be a free-loader -- accept the decent middle-class lifestyle you enjoy for your hard work, but pretend the unions did nothing to help you enjoy that.

Conservatives hate freeloaders, except when people are getting "free" health care rather than be forced to pay for insurance to cover it, or getting decent wages and benefits thanks to a union representing them, but not having to pay union dues for it. what a crock.

Mr. Rogers: By your analysis, therefore, the best thing is let economic forces handle this problem. Thus, the governor should drop this phony baloney legislation and let economic forces do their thing. If the unions don't want to bargain, follow through with the threatened layoffs. That is a true win-win(-win-win) scenario. The budget is balanced; Thousands of allegedly unneeded jobs have been eliminated; nobody's rights are violated; and, best of all (for republicans), the unions, rather than being stronger, will be weaker (by at least 6000 members, not to mention the loss of prestige at being unable to save those jobs). Unfortunately, this won't work because, contrary to your talking points, this has nothing to do with "market forces". It is only about one thing: UNION BUSTING!

You know, I would appreciate the conservative perspective a LOT more if they had even a hint of intellectual honesty.

It is only about one thing: UNION BUSTING!

You know, I would appreciate the conservative perspective a LOT more if they had even a hint of intellectual honesty.

I hope you are not referring to me as I clearly stated I think unions should be eliminated in the public sector. I'm not sure how to be more honest than that.

But hey, with the unions busted, what would prevent public sector employees from striking? Nothing... There are pros and cons to both sides.

If public workers in state A demand too much in wages/benefits, then the residents and businesses of state A will have to pay too much in taxes. If public workers in state B demand more reasonable wages/benefits, then taxes will be lower, attracting more businesses and residents from state A to state B.

The market forces work both ways here. If a state wants better teachers and firefighters the people of that state will elect to spend more money in those areas. The point is, the power belongs to the PEOPLE who are their EMPLOYERS vs. the unions who simply pay politicians to give themselves raises.

Also, your idea won't really even work on teachers, because all teacher retirement systems are closed and do not work between states. If a teacher pays 10 years into one system, than cannot transfer that pension time to another state. Of course this is an entirely different issue, but needless to say, our entire public education system needs a real overhaul.

@Mr. Rogers:

But hey, with the unions busted, what would prevent public sector employees from striking?

That is exactly what they are doing, in force, about 65000 plus at the last count. But hey, the Tea Party showed up on Saturday two. I seem to have read that it was about 2,000 people (suprised it was even that many.) So, this "majority" was out numbered by 30 to 1.

A small minority group taking over a government and removing the rights of opposition, it happened in Germany in the 1930's, Russia in the 1918, China in the 1940's, Iraq, Syria, Lybia, Egypt. Think about it.

When the Republican party begins to say "taking way guns might be ok" be afraid, be very afraid. That is how a true dictatorial regime holds power.

Billionaire Koch Brothers are Behind Scott Walker's Effort to Kill Public Unions in Wisconsin.

Unions = Socialism = Communism.

LOL, go pick up a book please...

I hear a whole lot of envy from conservatives about how much a teacher makes. It was just a short time ago they were screaming that we shouldn't be envious of executive level pay, we should go back and get a better education so we can make more money. Why is the responsibility on the union? They don't dictate how much they get paid, they negotiate. If there's a budget crisis how much of a pay cut has the governor taken? Has he sold the governors mansion? Did any of the legislators take a pay cut, they get to vote on how much they get paid. The governor didn't tie any of the compensation for his cabinet to the CPI. This is straight up politics or somehow corporate america has finally gotten people to race to the bottom of the economic ladder.

I don't belong to a union and never have but I don't want anybody's bargaining rights taken away. This is all about stripping every last one of the working middle class of any kind of power what so ever. We should all be alarmed by this Governor's actions.

Carl W,

Nope.

If public workers in state A demand too much in wages/benefits, then the residents and businesses of state A will have to pay too much in taxes.

As they are doing in Wisconsin. Wisconsin has hit critical mass and you are now seeing the results. I blame the Unions in Wisconsin. They had a good thing going. Didn't need to produce anything of value. Could have stayed attached to the host taxpayer for years to come but they got too greedy. All you union sucks out there got nobody to blame but yourselves.

The State of Wisconsin by its on accounting projected a 121.4 million dollar BUDGET SURPLUS for 2012. Let me repeat that - a 121.4 million dollar BUDGET SURPLUS for 2012 One more time - a 121.4 million dollar BUDGET SURPLUS for 2012! At least one more time - a 121.4 million dollar BUDGET SURPLUS for 2012! Our good Republican governor first order of business when taking office was to piss it all away in tax breaks for corporations and multinational (130 million to be exact). His second order of business was to declare a deficit emergency! So let me get this straight a short fall in the budget created by him to benefit the rich is to be paid in turn by those of us who can least afford it the working men and women of Wisconsin. And to add insult to injury after emptying their wallets they then have to give up some rights as well. This is without question all about destroying collective bargaining. Wrap it up all you want in lies, half truths and misdirection it is still about giving more power to the money elite and doing so at the expense of working Americans.

I am a little confused here. I hear the right say that teachers are not under paid , and then hear the left say that they are. Well, correct me if I am wrong but the left seem to be contradicting themselves. If unions are sooo great and wonderful, then why are the teachers so underpaid? Wouldn't they be better off to negotiate their own pay and benefits on their experience and talent than to have some unknown union rep negiate for the whole. Just asking.

Frank

So it's the union member who gets maybe $60k a year that sent the car companies reeling and not the executives who make $100M+ a year? Unions don't get to just set thier wages and benefits, they negotiate. If the other side of the table does a poor job negotiating why would you come back on the union, fire management.

davwin

Teachers are paid what they negotiated thier pay to be as a union. Some are happy with the pay some aren't. Some, myself included, think teaching should be one of the most well paid and prestigious positions in all of society. Making less than someone like Sarah Palin or Wolf Blitzer who add nothing to our society can seem demeening but they continue to sally forth and attempt to teach our ungrateful youth some basics. Do you think the state would be better off independently negotiating the pay and benefits with each school district? Each teacher? This is more complicated than conservative talking heads make it out to be.

Call it Freedom of Assembly (United StatesConstitution) or Freedom of Association (Canadian Constitution) the rights afforded workers as to collective bargaining are well within the confines of constitutionality and arise out of the same. For anyone to ascertain that these workers are not being asked to give up rights are for the most part essentially wrong and even I would argue un-American. As of the "Citizens United" ruling by the United States Supreme Court (judicial activism at its best) - corporations are now "super citizens" with more rights then you or I. Where in the Constitution is there any mention or even inference that business entities have the rights of citizens? Ironic and hypocritically you would do away with unions but you would allow corporations and offshore multinationals to own the political process outright and by degree the government itself.

The bill will drastically impact the teachers (and other public workers) with respect to collective bargaining - it's the police, firefighters, et al who will have those rights still intact. I suggest those who claim it doesn't impact collective bargaining for teachers re-read the bill.

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-his-budget-repair-/

There is no "RIGHT" to collective bargaining.

It is ironic that if businesses grouped together to demand certain prices, it is a felony (collusion / price-fixing) but if workers do it, it is called a union.

All governments and businesses should be allowed to pay a worker what his actual value is. If a particular person is paid less than his value, (s)he will leave for a higher paying job soon. That is why it is called a FREE MARKET.

This is all to kill the unions. Make cuts and leave their bargaining rights alone.

Talking to the protesters serves no functional purpose. The union management negotiate for them and they would be the ones to talk to. The runaway Dems apparently want some compromise in place before they return. I doubt that'll happen. Right now, I believe the Gov. and the remaining legislators are looking for a way or ways to get around the Quorum issue and get a vote done. It's apparent from the pictures that I saw that union members from different states are coming in. They're making it a national issue and on that they will surely lose. With a 11.9% national union membership, the majority will not support them. Walker says he can get the bill passed and that's how our system works.

Money and power are the only thing these unions care about.

Anyone dumb enough to think that isn't what everyone is about. Money pays the bills. Even Republican Politicians and Religious Televangelists know that.

Nothing to be ashamed about. Preachers, Teachers, Everyone needs money to pay the bills. Only a fool would think otherwise.

PDub-I would be alot more sympathetic to the plight of teachers if I didn't have a 9 year old taking classes that include advertising, photography and job interview skills. When our education starts making gains and teaching our kids the stuff they need to know and cuts out this type of b.s., then I will agree with you. When a teacher, individually, decides its ok to push their agenda in a classroom full of KIDS, I have no sympathy. When a school system teaches this kind of crap, I have no sympathy. If you want to be "one of the most well paid and prestigious positions in all of society" then you have to act as if you deserve that. Not treat the education of kids like a joke. Having a 9 year old taking these kinds of classes is just that, a joke.

Collective bargaining is legal extortion. Call it a negotiation all you want, but just like as we are seeing with the NFL right now, it's our way or we walk out. There is a reason the mob is so heavily involved in unions, extortion is one of their specialities.

GOV Walker is correct. If the actions of the GOV and the majority republican legislature in WI results in the demise of the unions in WI then they are to be congratualted.

Anyone making the argument that a union is one of the foundations of democracy in this Country has no concept of what democracy is or what the labor movement has historically been.

Union memebers constitute less than 13% of the entire US labor force, government union workers are the single largest group constituting almost half of all union members.

The public service unions in WI are closed shops which translates for those of you without any knoiwledge of unions (which based upon most of the comments is the vast majority of you folks) means that anyone that chooses to teach in the state of WI must join the union, this also applies to all state government employees - this is mandatory - they have no choice - they must join if they want to work in the government or as a teacher in WI.

They also must pay a percentage of their pay to the union as union dues every month. They have no option the union dues are taken from the pay before you ever see your pay check.

In business tihs is referred to as a monopoly - in ther union business it is called a closed shop.

Union contracts are negotiated with the same people receiving campaign contributions from the unions - just how protected are your rights, your tax dollars and financial welfare taken care of with this kind of colllusion bewtween unions and politicians?

No one believes our school systems are doing an adequate job educating our children - we rank 25th or worse in almost every international comparison of skills by every age group of students tested. The changes required to bring quality education back to our classrooms and to make our students competetive on an international level are impeded by the education unions in their zeal to protect the status quo and their membership.

bline: unions are simply corrupt and holding our nation back from achieving what we need to achieve to succeed into the future.

Maybe I'm not understanding something, but the Unions are not being dismantled and as far as collective bargaining goes... if the Union/employees want a substantial raise above and beyond a normal cost of living raise the State of Wisconsin taxpayers WILL VOTE on it. How come no one is discussing that aspect?

That's not to say these union workers wouldn't get the raise they want, it just depends on what the majority of the taxpayers in the state decide on.

I have been a manager in several different union facilities over the past few years. Reason being, most I have worked in have priced themselves out of the market and facilities either shut down or went to Mexico. In every one, the behaviors were eerily the same. Get a great wage (excessively more than any one individual deserved) yet demand exponentially more money every contract, with less accountability for their respective job. Never once did I see any one individual go the extra mile for the company. They were all pathetically unproductive and seemed to relish in the idea oftieingthe company's time up with foolish and petty grievances. The companies have invested so much money in making these people's jobs easier that at first glance it would appear these morons can produce a fair product. But at second glance you can see that the assembly lines essentially run themselves. So, in essence it mirrors today's liberal recipient class. There is no difference. Both are useless.

The unions are just doing their job...To get the most they can for their members, and to ensure their members are employed. This means they should demand the highest salaries, and benefits possible, and ensure their members can't be fired. That is their purpose, nothing else. They only exist to benefit their members. They don't care about the burden they put on the State. They are not in it for the kids, or to protect the taxpayer. This is why they are never satisfied with any contract. Next year they will ask for more. That is their job.

The Governor of WI is the person elected to look out for the taxpayer, and he is doing his job also. He is supposed to run the state with the least amount of taxpayer money possible. Obviously he is listening to the voters who elected him to cut spending. Alot is being made of the 25,000 to 65,000 protesters outside the capital, well the last time I checked WI had a population of 5.7 million.

The Governor's proposal does not break the union. It breaks the monopoly the union holds on public employees. State employees still have the right to join the union, but they are not forced to do so. The unions can still bargain collectively, just not on salary. If the employees want a raise that exceeds cost of living, they have to ask the voter to approve it. This sounds fair to me... the voter is the group who pays their salary. If the voter feels a group such as teachers are underpaid, then they can give them a raise. The union objects to this simply because they can't control the voter, or blackmail them with threats of removing them from office if they don't agree. Unions have no place in PUBLIC employment.

It`s like my dad always said, the first thing a union goes after.....is the dues. If it`s for the good of the people, which includes the union rep that works for that company, why do they need to be paid to bargain, to get a pay raise for the workers, and themselves? Why are people so lazy, that they can`t ask for a raise themselves, and have to have someone else do it for them? Gee, think about it, how much money you save by doing the talking yourself. Will that big ol pay raise they get you, cover not only the higher cost of living, but the dues the union is now taking from you? Yes, unions at one time were a god send to the people who worked in sweat shops for very little money, and with very little if any safety. Now, they are nothing but a way for a deadbeat worker to keep a job, when that person should be let go.

That is because either you do not understand history, have bought into right-wing propaganda, or both...

Both as I pledged allegiance to the Republic and it's laws.

The union is a bunch of bullies, AmadoC, who have bought in to the liberal Democrat, left wing agenda.....it works both ways, Mike. There are wings on both sides as well as agendas and progaganda on both sides.

Nearly every major union leader — both public and private sector — has united behind an ambitious $30 million plan to stop anti-labor measures in Wisconsin and at least 10 other states.

This is very telling. They certainly have money. Why don't the unions contribute to their members' additional healthcare costs?!?

..OH...a sheeple then..LOL!!!!

Well, I don't blame them if they want to take extra vacations or retire a little too early... perhaps it's that we take pride in doing it ourselves or don't want to owe anyone else appreciation for what we earned ourselves. It is surprising to find out that our intuition was right, I did not expect the state of Wisconsin, Nevada, or California to have been paying these extra vacations or early retirements all along. What a big surprise! They should agree on something fast with this governor, who I'm going to take it for granted that he is being balanced without reading too much into what has happened through the news.

When liberals complain about how much of our economy is being take from the middle class and transferred to the top 2%, they're accused of being communist or socialist redistributionists or something.

But when conservatives get all jealous of the decent middle-class pay and benefits that unions have fought hard for, well, I guess we'd better punish the unions.

Let's make sure we cut pay and benefits of teachers and firefighters before we raise any taxes on multimillionaires.

Then why is Winsconsin in debt because of the unions? Have normal people taken the bite already, and the union doesn't want to eat their share?

Except that Wisconsin is not in debt because of public sector unions.

Wisconsin is in debt because your new governor thought it more important to hand out nearly $200 million in corporate tax breaks to the Koch Bros and other corporate pals rather than to maintain a balanced budget.

And of course, once he and his Republican buddies created a deficit, of course they'd try to steal the money to plug that hole from Wisconsin State employees.

Fascism at it finest. It never seems to matter how much money and power these corporate elitists have, it's never enough to satisfy their lust for evermore money and power.

AmadoC

The reason why the state is in debt is because the Governor gave a huge tax break to business and now wants to pay for that debt on the back of the public employees.

Well in Illinois they tried to balance the budgets on the backs of the rich and on corporations. Guess what? They moved to other states taking their tax bases with them. Look at the state of Illinois and the trouble we are in.

http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/Illinois_state_budget

The State of Wisconsin by its on accounting projected a 121.4 million dollar BUDGET SURPLUS for 2012. Let me repeat that - a 121.4 million dollar BUDGET SURPLUS for 2012 One more time - a 121.4 million dollar BUDGET SURPLUS for 2012! At least one more time - a 121.4 million dollar BUDGET SURPLUS for 2012! Our good Republican governor first order of business when taking office was to piss it all away in tax breaks for corporations and multinational (130 million to be exact). His second order of business was to declare a deficit emergency! So let me get this straight a short fall in the budget created by him to benefit the rich is to be paid in turn by those of us who can least afford it the working men and women of Wisconsin. And to add insult to injury after emptying their wallets they then have to give up some rights as well. This is without question all about destroying collective bargaining. Wrap it up all you want in lies, half truths and misdirection it is still about giving more power to the money elite and doing so at the expense of working Americans.

And maybe if Detroit actually made a decent car that got good mileage for all those SUV years the city wouldn't be crumbling.

Having lived in Detroit, worked in assembly plants and been subject to reverse descrimination, I know why the Dems in Wisconsin need this so badly. Union folks don't understand that their take home pay will be higher when they don't have to pay these exorbitant union dues to thugs who live in mansions and give their hard earn confiscated dues to only Democrat Politicians who also live in mansions and confiscate money from Americans to give only to their pets.

I have to ask. What are the reasons behind the collapse of soccermoms post? I didn`t see anything that would call for its collapse. Was it offensive? No. It only asked why, unions aren`t spending money to help those who pay the dues to them?

I thought people were allowed to comment on here, as long as it falls within the guide lines? Please tell me what guide line this broke?

If this isn`t a guide line thing, then is it because someone didn`t like what she said about unions helping the people that pay dues to those unions? Please, some answers.

You are so right, Don. I grew up outside of Flint and many of my relatives worked in the auto plants and were part of the union, of course. The unions supported them (actually encouraged them) to work slowly in order to keep quotas down and require more workers. They could do only very specialized tasks; if a box needed to be moved off of the line the entire line had to be shut down while they located a 'box mover'. They drank on the job, played cards on the job, etc all with the union boss' blessing. All of this BS went on while they made very good money and had excellent benefits. It is no mystery why the auto industry went bust in the Flint area. All thanks to the union. What a joke.

...but everybody likes and supports police and firefighters. If they were included, Republicans could no longer play their favorite card: Demonizing the enemy. As long as they are stripping the rights away from "lazy government workers" or "teachers who get summers off", it is a lot easier for Rush, Beck, Hannity and the rest of the Hitler Youth to dessiminate the Kool-Aid.

The joke, of course, is on everybody who thinks this is ONLY about "lazy government workers". Don't kid yourself. If you work for a living (and, by "work for a living", I mean you go to a building that doesn't have Daddy's name on the building), this is about YOU. There is reason why every Republican governor in the nation is watching this so closely. As soon as this law gets passed and passes consitutional muster in Wisconsin, it is coming to a state house near you. Then, once they've stripped the rights away from government workers, they will move on to everybody else. It is no secret that big business liked things better 100+ years ago, when, on the rare occasions they could stop a union through legal means, they could just send out some goons to beat the uppitiness right out of them (and, of course, beat the life right out them if that is what it took). Now, they might just finally get their dream of being able to turn back the clock.

Police and Firefighters are mostly men.

Teachers are mostly women.

Men deserve better pay than women--they have families to support. Or at least that seems to be the old-fashioned Conservative Republican thinking...

Let's get real, teachers can strike, policemen and firemen do not have that luxury. Instead of making up bullsh!t arguments about Republicans hating women.

Wow, you libs are so busy with your usual namecalling that you can't see the obvious answer here. Police and fire protection are essential to our very survival, while education is not; it's important, but not essential.

Wow, you libs are so busy with your usual namecalling that you can't see the obvious answer here. Police and fire protection are essential to our very survival, while education is not; it's important, but not essential.

Know, Ed you cay shun is knot esenshal.

I have to disagree here. If no one had taught you the alphabet you would not be able to type the statement you just made. Or understand my response.

Your comment about teachers not being "essential" might be the most offensive of any I've read on here! Want to know why the USA lags behind many other nations in Math, Science, Engineering and other areas? It's because we as a society don't revere teaching..don't emphasize the importance teaching has in a young person's life...AND...too often parents are not nearly as concerned with the academic progress of their children. It takes parental responsibility and community support of their teachers and the education process to bring the successes our American society cedes to most other industrialized nations. In nations such as South Korea and Japan an educator is revered...looked upon with the utmost importance. Here in the US, our society is teaching our children that if we lean on others...BLAME others for our own shortcomings, we will get what we are entitled to! As in any profession, there are good and bad teachers..good and bad doctors..good and bad policemen...and certainly good and bad corporate officers. If anyone thinks that education and teaching AREN'T essential then you are dooming our country to failure and third world status.

Ok, Frank, we know you lived in Detroit. If you cannot think past the one post you made, give it up.

Rick G. Yes, Republicans do hate woman.

@Gerald and Concerned Citizen - teachers are not considered to be "essential" employees by the government, meaning they are allowed to strike, other positions, such as police, firefighters and corrections officers are deemed to be "essential" employees, meaning they have to show up to work regardless of the situation because failure to do so puts the general populace in danger. If there is a bad snowstorm, school is cancelled and the teachers get to stay home, however, police, firefighters and corrections officers are still expected and required to report to work; this is the difference between an "essential" or a "non-essential" employee.

Call it Freedom of Assembly (United StatesConstitution) or Freedom of Association (Canadian Constitution) the rights afforded workers as to collective bargaining are well within the confines of constitutionality and arise out of the same. For anyone to ascertain that these workers are not being asked to give up rights are for the most part essentially wrong and even I would argue un-American. As of the "Citizens United" ruling by the United States Supreme Court (judicial activism at its best) - corporations are now "super citizens" with more rights then you or I. Where in the Constitution is there any mention or even inference that business entities have the rights of citizens? Ironic and hypocritically you would do away with unions but you would allow corporations and offshore multinationals to own the political process outright and by degree the government itself.

Concerned Citizen in IL, the reason we lag behind in math, science, etc, isn't because of a lack of funding or revering teachers. We lag behind because more parents don't give a sh!t about how their kids do in school as long as they don't have to pay for day care than parents who do care. Instead of demanding excellence, we accept minimal effort. Instead of challenging students to excel, we lower standards so that more can pass. Money is not the issue with our education system, complacency is. And any teacher who forces a school closure to protest their personal benefits is, to me, a part of the problem, not the solution.

Frank, just because you are mypic doesn't mean everyone else is. If a corporation runs itself into the ground due to mismanagement it's easy to blame the workers. If the government fails to manage it's finances it's easy to blame its employees.

It's just like the GOP to *not* hold those in charge responsible for ANY of this (from Wall Street, to CEOs. From legislatures to Governers...). MUCH easier to blame the little guy for all these problems. The wealthy and those in charge are right by vurtiue of having money and power. The little guys should have neither and only by correcting this can things be set straight. At least in the eyes of our conservative lords.

Jahkeman, Whoever told you life was fair? You bust your butt. They promote someone else. You're an excellent employee; come lay off time, you're the one that goes. Everybody gets a 5 or 6% raise. You get 3%. That good looking take your breath away blond gets the promotion you've been after for years. Life is many things, but fair isn't one of them. One lady got on a blog and complained vigorously that the bosses daughter got away with a lot of things she couldn't, long lunches, coming late, leaving early, NO KIDDING! Did you think it would be different? Fair is just not the right word.

@Follow the yellow brick road, hahahah like that name, it rings so true, but I concure... their is such a word called FAIR, they just left out 3 more letters...

its "FAIRIES" <smirk>

Billionaire Koch Brothers are behind Scott Walker's effort to kill public service unions.

"the largest savings Walker proposed comes from refinancing debt to save $165 million. That portion must be done by Friday for bonds to be refinanced in time to realize the savings by June 30, the end of this fiscal year. Walker said not passing the bill by Friday would make even deeper cuts necessary and possibly result in laying off 1,500 workers over the next four months."

That puts a lot of pressure on the Democrats - Do they continue with the tantrum when it will cost lots of more jobs?

Concerned Citizen in IL "Your comment about teachers not being "essential" might be the most offensive of any I've read on here! Want to know why the USA lags behind many other nations in Math, Science, Engineering and other areas?"

I would agree that teachers are "essential", but I don't buy your blaming the parents or 'society'. There are good and bad parents in every coun

These professional protesters on TV right now, crack me up....

"Hey, Hey, Ho, Ho...Gov.Walkers got to go, Hey, hey,ho-ho"......

"Whadda we want ??"....Collective Bargaining"...."When do we want it ??".."Now"....

The originality is underwhelming...

Anyone know if there is a link to one of the many doctors giving out free Excuses...I feel like taking next week off, but I need a doctors note..

Anyone here been to a doctors office they've never been seen by before and DIDN'T have to fill out all and sign the "confidentiality" paperwork ??

Hospitals and other facilities in the area are all issuing statements that these doctors are freelancing and in no way are representing the places they work.

One of the them was interviewed and was asked if the people she was giving the excuses to were sick......her reply was " Yes, they are sick of Gov. Walker".....

"Yes, Sick of Gov. Walker!" Now that is funny!!

Love all of these good right wing Americans, cheering for this scumbag Walker who is doing nothing more that trying to stomp on the US Constitution!

If this scumbag really wanted to deal with the financial problems at hand he would have accepted the Unions concessions on the financial issues and left the constitutional RIGHTS of workers alone.

This is totally and completely about attacking workers protections. Absolute Fascist BS!!!

Education is not essential?

Voters can learn everything they need to know by listening to college drop outs with a history of drug addiction. No need to check facts. Facts don't turn profits.

And never mind that pesky arithmetic. We can eliminate the budget shortfall by giving more money to rich people and raising spending at the same time. Who needs revenue? Why repair our infrastructure? Why not sell it instead?

Collective-bargaining has nothing whatsoever to do with the budget shortfall.

Union leaders must practice saying NO in front of the mirror. Union agreements have made American workers successful. They were hard fought for and hard won.

Union Leaders: Do not go backwards for anyone or anything.

spg64-1292127

"Yes, Sick of Gov. Walker!" Now that is funny!!

Love all of these good right wing Americans, cheering for this scumbag Walker who is doing nothing more that trying to stomp on the US Constitution!

If this scumbag really wanted to deal with the financial problems at hand he would have accepted the Unions concessions on the financial issues and left the constitutional RIGHTS of workers alone.

How is Gov. Walker being unconstitutional? He is alowing peaceful assembly. It seems that the teachers are the ones that are "stomping on the U.S. Constitution", because teachers do not have a constitutional right to strike.

The First Amendment of the BILL OF RIGHTS provides: "Congress shall make no law . . . prohibiting . . . the right of people peaceably to assemble." This right, as applied to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, has been interpreted to give teachers and other employees the right to free association, including the right to join a union, such as the National Education Association or the American Federation of Teachers. However, the Constitution does not grant teachers the right to bargain collectively with employers. This right is based on applicable provisions in state constitutions, federal statutes, or state statutes. Similarly, teachers do not have a constitutional right to strike, though other federal law or state law may permit teachers to strike.

Suzy-2005071..you say we get minimum effort from students and parents..we also get the same from teschers who, upon getting their tenure can not be fired for not doing their jobs well. WE have problems also with the funding for education that has been cut a large number of times..this country has fallen behind most every other nation in education...and disreguarding what our politicans claim...we have lost thousands of manufacturing jobs thanks to them that most likely will not come back. THe claim that gets to me is the one of better quality goods from cheaper labor...I have seen cheap goods from cheap labor for sure...Walmart and most other stores are full of them. We also have a congress that is surely lacking in its ability to get their job done..even the republicans seem to be more worried about big busines and the wealthy than the general public thus far.

gotme, frank, spider, Ivan & Company

Good to see such a wonderful array of likeminded anti-labor protestors assemble freely on the web to demean good people with good jobs, and raise points which have nothing to do with the good Governor's plan to bust unions when they are already stable and funded in order to subsidize his own political cronyism and passing of bills designed to benefit his campaign contributors' coffers.

Glad you got yours, don't see through the entire collapse of American manufacturing not due to the unions(though I will agree the strongest ones did not encourage strong growth within their industries), but due to the greed of the Owners and Board Members who would take the higher profits by stripping America of the jobs and sending them abroad to China, Malaysia, etc, where the workers have no rights, benefits, child labor laws, nor insurance, let alone some sort of retirement plan.

You show your thinly veiled hate for the backbone of America, the Middle Class, with all your protestations against making a living wage through collective bargaining agreements.

Say hello to the Brothers Koch while you crawl back into your paid-for holes.

Now that I have made an as outrageous comment as you could probably imagine, we are even!

Peace

All the dribble from the tea pot sure solidifies a stereotype. Incredible

Done That

"Matt L-1901963: The teachers already agreed to the financial terms. Why do you need to strip them of their rights?"

1st- Collective Bargaining is not a right- Never has been, never will. There is a right to assemble and have free speech- which is what is happening now. This is healthy- though disruptive. CB is a tool used by the Unions to empower a large group of people to coerce an employer to bend to their will (Do what we want or we ALL walk!!). It leave an employer no choice but to give in and lose power in their own business.

This is an easy enough fact to check if you know how to use a search engine: The Billionaire Koch Brothers are behind Walker's effort to break public service unions. The American People need to realize before it is too late all the wealth and power of the nation is continually being concentrated into the hands of a smaller and smaller group at the very top of society. The country is headed toward becoming a plutocracy and the biggest problem is citizens, who do not know the difference between the hearsay they see on TV and the Cold Hard Facts for which one has to search

Police and fire fighters make double what teachers earn, and they retire after only 20 years, and then can be rehired by another force elsewhere with both sources of income. Police tend to be more right-wing, and you want them on your side when you're a rogue governor.

I know first hand because of numerous teachers and police officers in my family, and teachers are the working poor who have far less benefits in comparison.

TruePatriot, teachers are being singled out because GOP goal is to dismantle public schools and replace them with for-profit schools.

Dismantling unions is part one. Slashing public school budgets is part two.

Union leaders: Vote no, no, no and no.

@getthefacts-1122565

Billionaire Koch Brothers are Behind Scott Walker's Effort to Kill Public Unions in Wisconsin.

Fine with me, I will take the Koch Bro. over that communist Sorros that you worship any day of the week. Also, SOMEONE needs to fight the good fight with overpayed, ineffective, bloated "work" force...if you call what they do work.

"Wis. Governor says union bill is 'incredibly fair":
It is a sure bet that the Rep. WI Gov. and all the rest of the Republicans there will eventually have this come back to slap the Gestapos in the face when the 70 K protesters turn against them in throngs at the voting polls in 2012. When the Unions said they'd pay into the pensions and health care, there is NO VALID REASON for taking away the arbitration rights, except under the guise of being "Control Freak Gestapos" that will ensure that the power, corruption, greed, and more money remains in the politicians' own pockets. With that many people showing up for protests, there's no way the politicians are doing what the Constituents want (not anymore than they did in Egypt or other such places). The WI politicians are not interested in the least bit as to the wishes of the WI Constituents. How many of the politicians placed cuts/caps on their annual salary, health care, pension, and benefits? Was that even on the "chop block"? Most like not! Exactly how much have they taken away from the elite besides giving them more tax break exemptions?? Did they take away their lobbyists (which is no different than the unions) from the elite big businesses (who are financially supporting the elimination of worker unions)? In the end those lobbyists, who want to force out all the unions for the complete control, cost the tax payers far more money than the Unions. The Republicans won't be happy until they take away the freedom of speech from the everyday worker just as was done under the Bush/Chaney era. Remember that when comes to 2012. The Republicans have not changed at all and look out only for the wealthy such as: done last Dec. in Congress when they held the middle class, elderly, and poor as hostages until the elite had their tax breaks taken care of FIRST. Their is no fairness of balance with what WI is currently doing.

You forgot one

"State Senator Jane Cunningham wants to put Missouri kids to work" Riverfront Times, Feb. 15 2011

If you really want to stop abortions,Go F--k yourself.Simple.Unless you are the holy woman, Bachman.Then, it's everyone else.

demmie

I thought PROGRESSIVES preferred blue dresses !

"The man has not even been college educated"

Neither has Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, what's your point?

They don't set public policy like a governor of a state does.In this case WI got shafted. S.C's new governor is not college educated either.There seems to be a pattern among the teabagger elected officials. They hate education because they don't have one.

SC's governor is a complete, sad joke. She's a "fiscal conservative with an accounting background" yet she had to pay penalties on her personal taxes for years because she couldn't file on time. First day in office, pay raises for all her staff. She said that's ok because they're going to be laying off other people in other areas to cover the pay raises. Sound familiar? Screw the majority to enrich the lives of a few, elite people with connections. Love the Conservatives!

The GOP hate educated people..they get in the way of their narrow bigoted viewpoints!!!

Chris Gilliard,

They don't set public policy like a governor of a state does.In this case WI got shafted. S.C's new governor is not college educated either.There seems to be a pattern among the teabagger elected officials. They hate education because they don't have one.

LOL!! Now we see it. Hey Chris, I love education. Heck I love it so much I self-educated. LOL! WI got just what its citizenry voted for. You know that little thing you don't agree with called Democracy? The college eduction. The biggest scam going. Hey Chris, FYI. Those who can do, those who can't teach. Seems to me a lot of those cants ended up with their heads up to their necks in the pig's trough that is the State of Wisconsin educational system. LOL!

"The man has not even been college educated!!!"

"They hate education because they don't have one."

Spoken like true elitists......

He is educated enough to know that unions are bankrupting the state!!

"The man has not even been college educated"

Neither has Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, what's your point?

On one hand you have self educated people using genius and vision to create tools for people to use. On the other, you have a self educated tool being used by the GOP and the Koch brothers to push their agenda.

He is educated enough to know that unions are bankrupting the state!!

Wisconsin was projected to have a surplus, until Mr. educated allocated the surplus funds his rich friends.

So cliff, if the unions already agreed to the pay cuts and increasing thier contributions why add the union busting language? If the cuts proposed and accepted will reduce the states impending costs by as much or more than THE $200M dollar tax break to business why the union busting language. If actual corporate taxes paid is at an all time low why cut them further? Why balance the budget on the backs of the workers? You give a tax cut to the middle class and poor they spend it. You give a tax cut to multi national corporations and the economic elite (top 5%) they hide it in an offshore account.

I'll take common sense from a politician over education anyday... and guess what? when you are broke you need to start cutting expenses. If you had to go to college to learn that I feel sorry for you, try living on a budget sometime.

Excia,

Wisconsin was projected to have a surplus, until Mr. educated allocated the surplus funds his rich friends.

Yeah damn it! That money was reserved for the non-producing parasitic state of Wisconsin workers. How dare you take away what it "justly" theirs?!! From each according to his ability to each according to his need. Don't ya'll know nothing?

Sven

What does a firefighter produce? A cop? The guy driving the snow plow? The teacher educating the next Mark Pincus or Andrew Mason? If the pay concessions have already been met why put in the union busting language?

Call it Freedom of Assembly (United StatesConstitution) or Freedom of Association (Canadian Constitution) the rights afforded workers as to collective bargaining are well within the confines of constitutionality and arise out of the same. For anyone to ascertain that these workers are not being asked to give up rights are for the most part essentially wrong and even I would argue un-American. As of the "Citizens United" ruling by the United States Supreme Court (judicial activism at its best) - corporations are now "super citizens" with more rights then you or I. Where in the Constitution is there any mention or even inference that business entities have the rights of citizens? Ironic and hypocritically you would do away with unions but you would allow corporations and offshore multinationals to own the political process outright and by degree the government itself.

To those who keep insisting WI had a projected surplus, again, I will remind you that repeating a lie does not make it true. Doyle (our last governor) knew and stated on several occasions that there would be a deficit. He forced furlough days and laid off state workers to help close the gap. He moved money from the Patients and Victims Compensation Fund to fill the hole in other areas (not his money to take, must be paid back by the state). He failed to report current year expenses in the current budget and he used federal dollars to close gaps despite knowing the federal dollars likely would not be there by the time the projections became reality.

AS for tax cuts- a number of companies and individuals have left the state recently because our tax burden is huge (9th highest) and our tax base is shrinking. WE clearly aren't attracting new businesses to the state by raising taxes which means we aren't generating jobs to get people back to work and increase the tax base. So what else do you suggest? The tax breaks passed create incentives for new hiring and make individually contributions to HSAs tax deductible. Walker's also passed tort reform in an effort to bring down health care costs in the state. None of these seem like bad legislation to me.

PDub,

What does a firefighter produce? A cop? The guy driving the snow plow? The teacher educating the next Mark Pincus or Andrew Mason? If the pay concessions have already been met why put in the union busting language?

Union busting? You mean like members aren't forced to join? Members no longer have their dues taken out of their checks by the State? You mean that by doing away with collective bargaining language the union members can't come back in two months and get what they "conceded" and then some? That union busting? Sorry chum. The citizens of Wisconsin voted for this. You don't like it campaign against it next election cycle and get your newly elected members to try and rescind the legislation. That's the playing the rules by the game.

Police and Fire were not included because only teacher's insurance and retirements were out of line in cost and expected to continnue to excellerate in costs.

The union is not outlawed - just getting reigned in from destroying the host - like the auto Industries, The Steel Industry, The railroad car industry, the Glass industry, . . . . .

Billionaire Koch Brothers are Behind Scott Walker's Effort to Kill Public Unions in Wisconsin.

who else can you bums blame??????? hey ,,,the pope? no the gayand lesbian group ?no ,,,,,,how about your selfs and your greed... yesunions say it all ,your like the horse and buggy against the automobile,your a thing of the past,realize that fact,,,,,,

"The teachers already agreed to the financial terms. Why do you need to strip them of their rights?"

What rights are those you speak of? Have you read the Bill? They still have all the collective barganing rights they had before. All the bill strips is the unions abililty to force teachers into a union for the privilage to work. Do you advocate forcing teachers to pay union dues, if they do not want to? I am confused about all the uproar. But then again, look who is screaming the loudest, liberals. They have proven time and time again that they do not bother to read bills.

Billionaire Koch Brothers are behind Scott Walker's effort to kill public service unions.

Get the facts. -

Billionaire Koch Brothers are Behind Scott Walker's Effort to Kill Public Unions in Wisconsin.

First of all, Walker's efforts are not to kill the union, just restrict this particular uinon, because it's bargaining has made the pensions and health insurance untouchable. This union doesn't want to pay 1 penny of the pensions and health Insurance. Walker is only asking for between 5 & 6% of those benefits - equal to the Police and Fire - and well below the national average share of 12% and well below Federal employees paying 30% and higher.

Second, to make the ascertion that Walker is controlled by the Koch brothers is akin to say George Soros controls Obama. One could make a good argument about that - all of Soros's PACs and pet organizations promoted Obama. Then after Obama is president, 2 weeks before Obama announces 2 Billion in US money to be paid to Brazil Oil exploration, Soros Buys 40% of the Brazil Oil exploration. Then a some months later, because of the disaster in the Gulf - Obama bans further drilling in the Gulf - half of the Oil rigs go to Brazil.

Get the picture?

This is an easy enough fact to check if you know how to use a search engine: The Billionaire Koch Brothers are behind Walker's effort to break public service unions. The American People need to realize before it is too late all the wealth and power of the nation is being concentrated into the hands of a smaller and smaller group at the very top of society. The country is headed toward becoming a plutocracy.

getthefacts-1122565....here's how it works...when you make rediculous outrageous claims on here...it is pretty much up to you to provide some links to back up your statements....merely saying "go look it up"....is childish at best.

getthefacts,

You make for great comic relief. Why don't you try posting some independent links to back up your claim? Otherwise, your postings are nothing more than just meaningless words.

Byron insults will get you no where.

It is very interesting to see that most anti-union, pro capitalist post has either been 'collapsed by the community' or 'ignored! Interesting.... not freedom of the press, but then everyone's taking a beating these days!

@getthefacts-1122565

Billionaire Koch Brothers are Behind Scott Walker's Effort to Kill Public Unions in Wisconsin.

Fine with me, I will take the Koch Bro. over that communist Sorros that you worship any day of the week. Also, SOMEONE needs to fight the good fight with overpayed, ineffective, bloated "work" force...if you call what they do work.

We have a right to form groups of people period.

We have a right to legal representation.

Therefore, we have a right to collective bargaining. Unions are legal representation for a group. Corporations are legal representation for a group.

If we don't have a right, then Corporation members don't have a right to be sued through the corporation. This means individuals may sue thousands of individual members of the organization for there share worth in the company without going through the corporation lawyers.

Example, Corporation does x bad thing to X person. X person then sues every member of the Corporation for exactly the damages to them divide by the members shares. See how screwed up things get when to you try to side step rights of the individual to work in groups?

Any STATE GOVERNMENT that wants to end their budget crisis has but one option. Place a tax on all goods not made in the US, or go bankrupt. Without balanced trade, all economies in the US are declining. Without this revenue from tax, because all economies are down, every state will eventually go bankrupt. Therefore, the only fix is to fix the trade policy individually for every state with a tax on all goods not made in the USA, because WASHINGTON DC is no longer owned by the US citizen.

Communism failed because the world wasn't ready for it. 500 years into the future, we might be ready for it. Communism can only work if the society is purely good. Until greed is against the law, and that law is followed, communism can't exist. Until individuals understand, everyone contributes to the greater good in the best way he can, and everyone will give up some of those gains to those that need them. Also, all work will be purely mental, and all physical work will be done by the robots of the society, which is why communism died in USSR.

Pure Communism will never work it fails to take into account the human tendency to be lazy. And Pure Capitalism will never work because it fails to take into account the human tendency to be greedy.

So really you end up having to find a balance somewhere in the middle of both. Yeah some lazy and greedy people will work the system. But overall you end up with something that promotes achievement and also looks after the less fortunate.

As far as unions go, the fact is they do a lot of good but are going to have to evolve. Most of it comes down to the stupid things they do. Paid time off when the shop is closed down. The whole this is my job this is all I do mentality. But the biggest problem is getting rid of poor performers.

I fully support backing an employee up if they have been fired because of a personality clash or some other thing like that. But showing up drunk, punching in and going to the bar across the street, and stealing property you should be fired. You have a job it is to be productive. And this is where most people have an issue with unions.

Jovi: That is one of the more intelligent posts I've read on the topic.

communism ,capitalism , until UAW workers quit getting caught smoking the chronic, (marijuana) at lunch

you won't be able to GIVE away Comrade Obamas Eco-econo -death -boxes !

Interesting that you bring up government motors. What part did unions pay in GM's problems? Not all but they sure heaped kerosene on the fire

mygirl

How would you like it if all state jobs were done with migrant workers.Many businesses already have India and China doing a lot of American white collar work.Most of white collar jobs are being shifted overseas.My former plant farmed out our paychecks and Engineering technology to India,and now wants China to take over cause it's even cheaper.Have a problem?Oh! well.Get a translator.More efficient government doesn't just mean cutting jobs,it means more efficient.Theres better ways to cut the budget,but Walker doesn't want to sit down and talk about it.

Is that unions fault?We could never compete with them, no matter how low our pay gets cut.It's never enough.

The white collars in my plant farmed out our work because their so-called sympathetic bosses told them to.(No union for them).Then, with much suprise by the white collars, they were let go or fired WITHOUT NOTICE.The ones they kept, had all their benefit payments increased higher and extremely large deductibles. We warned them it would happen to them first,but they didn't listen.The company used them till they could produce no more cuts and hired temporary college kids at lower rates each time with no benefits to do their dirty work.Even Engineers were replaced with Engineers from India or Pakistan or anyone overseas,just to pay them less.(They are not union). The local college even got public funding to keep a private plant with their logo, open,and used it to farm out our work.(No problem with Government money there).Right? Some of our white collars had to go several times a week to that plant and work,showing them how we do things,and then returning only to find out more and go back and rat us out of jobs.Many union workers were either laid off by rotation or permanently ,while the company made their case of mandatory overtime.The company shoved LEAN MANUFACTURING down our throats,They watch the workers every 10 minutes and document everything,so that they could ship out jobs at will.LEAN MANUFACTURING, DFT(Demand Flow Technology)and AUTOMATION and pure company greed, lead to the decline of many union manufacturing jobs.These companies didn't lose one red cent in record profits and started sending work outside the plant in town,then out of state,then finally built plants in other countries,leaving those same workers who helped them make those profits, run out of good sustainable work.You won't see many union workers sitting around with Japanese style LEAN work rules in effect.My company even eliminated 1/2 hour lunches with this LEAN MANUFACTURING and wants mandatory overtime.Many people will work overtime because the company said it will farm out work if they don't comply.Many already took a big pay cut when LEAN took over.Yes there is overtime even with layoffs,with the threat,of course.This is how they eliminated 3rd shift,at the same time controlling the line for continuous flow.

Unless you've been there,being watched and timed all day,every day, till it's layoff time,I would not talk about what you haven't endured.It must be nice to sit around and dream up things to say about the very people that gave you your work rights.Your day is coming,and you will have nobody to blame anymore,but yourself.

Great post. I'm always surprised by the "we don't need unions anymore today" comments.

What changed? Did corporations suddenly become so benevolent that they'll fight for decent middle-class living standards on our behalf?

I'm always surprised by the "we don't need unions anymore today" comments.

It's the people that are making these statements that apparently aren't seeing the attacks on labor that the GOP is waging. If anything, these attacks on the poor and middle class have underlined the need for unions.

Mike,

"Incredibly Fair"? How is a unilateral move by one side of an issue to remove all rights of the other side "Incredibly Fair"?

Seems to me on the one side of the issue would be a vast majority of State of Wisconsin voters the other side would be the minority of parasitic union workers. Is it not also a unilateral move for a dog owner who's dog has fleas to get that poor dog a flea bath? The owner is happy, his family is happy, the dog is happy, the only ones not happy are the fleas.

Why should a group of people acting together with a common cause have fewer rights than a corporation? (A corporation being essentially a group of people with money with a common cause)

Huh? That makes no sense. You're defining the citizens of Wisconsin as a corporation? You need to go get yourself a dictionary and read up on what a citizen is. I hope you're not one of these freeloading educators, taking time off with fake doctor's notes, cause you're not the sharpest tool in the shed. Heck, you're not the sharpest stick in the woodpile next to the shed. Hate to think of you teaching children.

Mike - "How is a unilateral move by one side of an issue to remove all rights of the other side "Incredibly Fair"?"

Ask anyone who supports Obamacare, they will tell you.

P.S.

It's not "all rights" drama queen.

Following the train of thought of how important the unions are to keep American labor from going backwards a hundred years then we should be able to abolish the Dept of Labor and some of the following:

Administrative Review Board

Benefits Review Board

Employees Compensation Appeals Board

Employee Benefits Security Administration

Mine Safety & Health Administration

Occupational Safety & Health Administration

Office of Disability Employment Policy

Office of Labor-Management Standards

Office of Workers Compensation

Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation

Wage & Hour Division

Women's Burea

Is he related to Chris Christie????!!!!

Mike,

That group of people with money you refer to are the Wisconsin taxpayers. Just in case you forgot...

Well said Mike. Any moron who believes that unions have outlived their usefulness should read your posting. Divide and conquer seem to be Governor Walker's tactics. His objective is to make the workers defenseless in preparation for future assaults. Who will be next on the hit list? Maybe the people who don't believe in unions will wish that they had one.

Not a sermon... just a thought.

@MSpielman Where I Iive, a new teacher fresh out of college with a shiny new teaching license gets paid $21k/year.

What state do you live in? Because back in 2000 when I was going for my degree to teach HS Art, the national average salary for a starting teacher was $40k/year (that was over a decade ago). So you might think about moving either to another county/state.

@DrowningGrover

Unions = Socialism = Communism. LOL, go pick up a book please...

Why don't you look up an Interview with Karl Marx that was in the Chicago Tribune, January 5 1879

“Do European socialists look upon the movement in America as a serious one?”

“Yes: it is the natural outcome of the country’s development. It has been said that the movement has been imported by foreigners. When labor movements became disagreeable in England, fifty years ago, the same thing was said; and that was long before socialism was spoken of. In American, since 1857, only has the labor movement become conspicuous.^[26] Then trade unions began to flourish; then trades assemblies were formed, in which the workers in different industries united; and after that came national labor unions. If you consider this chronological progress, you will see that socialism has sprung up in that country without the aid of foreigners, and was merely caused by the concentration of capital and the changed relations between the workmen and employers.”

hey carl. this is a "public" union we're talking about. you know one full of government employees. tell me why "public" employees need a union. the only reason i can come up with is to spend union dues lobbying in politics. essentially they are taking tax payers money to lobby for their own interests. this shouldn't be allowed.

So, if you want to teach in Wisconsin do you have to join a union in order to do so? If so then there's something really wrong with the picture. Exclusion from work unless one joins a union is extortion. Teachers are required to join the union and the union dues amout to approximately $1,100. a year.

Teachers don't have to attend the union meetings etc. but they still have to pay the dues. No one seems to be talking about that.

Noneyabiz--try looking something up. What state does a person live in where a teacher with a shiny new degree gets about $21K a year? Well, dear, that would probably be the 50th state, Oklahoma. While, technically, a teacher in Oklahoma makes more than that--much of the "pay" is illusory (sick days, etc.). This is a trifle low--the OK Congress was embarrassed into increasing pay because the new teachers in that state qualified for welfare at one time if they were single parents and had a family of about three. But, no, new teachers in OK don't make anything approaching $40K. Seasoned teachers don't make $40K. Don't confuse a national average with what a typical person gets paid--if someone gets $100K (which they do in Long Island), then someone else is getting a lot less.

What is the cost of living in New Jersey? What is the cost of living in Oklahoma? What are the state taxes?

Your time line will only work when, the Democrats take away the "Right to Keep and Bear Arms".

Your time line will only work when, the Democrats take away the "Right to Keep and Bear Arms".

That is not, and has never been on the table, unless you live in NRA fantasy land.

@Joe-Bue... the removal of that right is next on Walkers agenda, once he and the other Tealiban members take over Washington. When that happens, be afraid, be VERY afraid.

dirp, show where it is in the constitution to have a union. Bargaining does not fall under free speech. No one is telling them that they can not assemble. Show me somewhere that I am wrong? These teachers should have the right to take work off on sick leave and not be sick and harming the students education? Is that you liberal translation of being right? Lying about being sick and hurting the students education. This is what you liberals are about?

Carl - Today the workers who need to be unionized are the office workers such as IT & Accounting. The factory workers already have protection against length of work day, etc. No one in a salaried position is offered such protection.

@Mark: How about the First amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

and the 14th Amendment (from wikipedia):

Its Due Process Clause prohibits state and local governments from depriving persons of life, liberty, or property without certain steps being taken to ensure fairness. This clause has been used to make most of the Bill of Rights applicable to the states, as well as to recognize substantive and procedural rights.

The bill would immediately remove the right of the U of Wisconsin members to collectively bargain, violating those rights. See

Since those people currently have those rights, by contract, Walker and the Tealiban Republicans are violating Article 1, section 10 of the US Constitution, which they swore to uphold. They should be impeached!!!!

Can somebody explain where the constitution deals with collective bargaining by public employees? They have a right to assemble and bitch all they want for sure, but that has nothing to do with collective bargaining.

Also, can somebody explain to me what is good about a union bargaining with politicians who bargain, not with THEIR money, but with the taxpayers money - the same politicians who stand to get big contributions from said union? How on earth is this fair to the real bosses, the taxpayers?

There is nothing, nothing, nothing in the Constitution about collective bargaining or did I miss it. I am not a Republican but an independent living on $1,041 Sscial Security and have not had a cost of living increase in two years because for some people the Consumer Index has gone up but no my funds. Get a life and stop whining.

dirp,

Are you sure you are reading the same document the rest of us are reading? Because the last time I checked (and from your posting), there is nothing in the Constitution that addresses collective bargaining. Sorry pal, there is no connection between the two and if you think there is one, then you need to go back to high school and take your U.S. Government class again...

Wow, most of these posts are from people who depend greatly on their union benefits.... nevermind that those 'benefits' are ruining the country!

A very good friend of mine passed away recently! Great guy, union guy... he worked for Ford Motor Co. for many years. Because of 'Union Benefits' his wife (retired) will earn more from these ever increasing benefits, than her husband did when he was living! Even his wife thinks something is wrong with this scenario!

If the unions refuse to budge, then they will be responsible for Class Warfare in this country! Because we can no longer support them! They will succeed in turning this once great Country into a socialist country like Argentina, Greece, UK, and many other failed socialist economies!

We need to compromise and EVERYONE has to sacrifice, including the unions! Otherwise the future for all of us looks pretty dim. Remember to turn out the lights when leaving the USA!

@dirp101

How about the First amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

and the 14th Amendment (from wikipedia):

Its Due Process Clause prohibits state and local governments from depriving persons of life, liberty, or property without certain steps being taken to ensure fairness. This clause has been used to make most of the Bill of Rights applicable to the states, as well as to recognize substantive and procedural rights.

The bill would immediately remove the right of the U of Wisconsin members to collectively bargain, violating those rights. See

Here is a little correction to your assumption:

The First Amendment of the BILL OF RIGHTS provides: "Congress shall make no law . . . prohibiting . . . the right of people peaceably to assemble." This right, as applied to the states through the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, has been interpreted to give teachers and other employees the right to free association, including the right to join a union, such as the National Education Association or the American Federation of Teachers. However, the Constitution does not grant teachers the right to bargain collectively with employers. This right is based on applicable provisions in state constitutions, federal statutes, or state statutes. Similarly, teachers do not have a constitutional right to strike, though other federal law or state law may permit teachers to strike.

Hey dirp...

Sorry man, that is way off base. I believe I know where you were heading but that is not logical. You are using the 14th Amendment too broadly:

"Its Due Process Clause prohibits state and local governments from depriving persons of life, liberty, or property without certain steps being taken to ensure fairness"

You are taking "to ensure fairness" out of context. That above statement could be used in any scenario but depends solely on the term fairness and what it equates to. Kinda of like saying working a 40 hour work week is depriving me of my liberty to work only 35 hours per week. Same as not allowing an entity (union) to represent me to get more money and benefits deprives me of my liberty to buy more stuff and stay at home more. It justs does not apply that way... From my perspective having an entity (union) represent those persons whose paychecks and benefits are provided by taxpayers is NOT fair.

In my opinion, Unions good, public unions not necessary...

Miked, there is already class warfare going on in this country. It’s between the people who work for their money and the people who’s money works for them. The people who work for their money are losing. The top 2% of the population takes home 24% of the wages. It’s been increasing pretty steadily since the Reagan administration.

Do the unions have some issues. Oh YEAH they do and we need to scale back some of the things that have been negotiated over the years. But to basically gut the collective bargaining of these people is wrong. We as individuals have very little bargaining power when dealing with organizations or corporations. The only way we have any bargaining leverage is collective bargaining.

There is always someone willing to do your job for less. The only thing keeping it from sliding right down to the minimum wage is the threat of unions. Without unions or the threat of unions, the wages and benefits will be driven down as low as the law allows.

The song “I owe my soul to the company store” has basis in fact and history. And that’s where the power brokers would like to take our country “BACK” to.

Look--the thieves may work for the Koch brothers, but they got voted in. It is my opinion that the good people of WI have done this to themselves.

Do Republicans want to close down the public schools, make them for-profit, and then see to it that mostly upper-middle-class and better white people get into the for-profits and everyone else gets pushed down and will work for them as basically slaves. Well, yes, they do.

But, you know what, the good people of WI were dumb enough to vote that bunch in. I think that Democrats should point out that they were right about GWB wanting to go to war in Iraq because he wanted to go to war in Iraq, that Democrats were right to point out that they'd been lied to about WMDs, that Democrats were right that the Bush administration was trampling everyone's civil rights, and so forth.

We are also right about this--but, if people are dumb enough to believe that Obama is a socialist, the new health care bill moves control of medicine into the hands of government, and that teachers get paid marvelously with three months off every year--hey, they are dumber than the little presents my dogs leave in the back yard.

The problem is that the average voter is now so easily fooled--and you see a lot of it in these comments--that the Republicans can pull absolutely transparent stunts, and the average voter will fall for it. Take Bachmann and her taking a random comment in India about how much money Obama spent to visit that country and running with it--of course the figure was ludicrous. But, hey, it had been printed--and if it was on the Internet, it must be so!

Or take Bachmann organizing a rally, encouraging people to attend it, attending it herself--and then claiming the very next day (on the same network that she had been promoting the rally on) that the rally was "spontaneous" and she and her fellows had just gone out to "join" it.

Only when the Republicans succeed in a couple of states beyond the "red" ones will people see what is going on--people in the "red" states are so completely blind to it now that they are hopeless. But, let a couple of blue states drink the Kool-Aid. I'm afraid that's what it's going to take. The people of WI should not have wished for this--because it looks like they are about to get it. I live in a red state--welcome to the sinking row boat, WI middle class, welcome.

Really right now both parties are irrelevant, it is time for some new ones to rise up and take the reigns. Both are to timid to do anything real about the budget because they know ultimately it will cost them their job.

No one wants to touch term limits because that is not in their best interests even if it is in our best interests. No one wants to touch getting private money out of the electoral system because it is not in their interests to do so. And we suffer for it. No one wants to address trade, because it isn't in their best interests to do so. And that alone demonstrates that the Tea Party itself is a joke, they have no really interests in getting the economy on track.

Ohio's next. Another Con with anti- union proposals.Cut pay or lose jobs.That will always be their motto,cause they have no real debate in mind.Lets see who's pension and wages Kaschich doesn't cut for political gain and anti-union legislation.Maybe the food industry needs to show them Cons what food tastes like at the capital with a liberal amount of de-regulation that they propose.Like some fries with that wage cut?

lol who's the fear mongerers now?

hypocrisy abound from the left.

let's just hope nobody actually shoots governor walker with all the signs with bullseyes on walkers face.

i'm sure the left will quickly come up with another excuse as to why they're somehow different than the right.

pure garbage here on newsvine. it's impossible to get a non-partisan discussion anywhere on the vine from either side.

lol who's the fear mongerers now?

Same fear mongers as usual, screaming about the labor unions destroying the country, Obama is a Socialist, bla,bla,bla...

Independence Jim. These lawmakers were elected to do just this!!! You voted them in knowing this is what they campaigned on. People and municipalities are sick and tired of being held hostage by unions. Look what it has done to the automakers. At one time well over $30 per hour when everyone else was making well below that $30 per hour.

@ Mark-384387

If the municipalities are sick and tired of being held hostage, why did the County Board Chairman in my county say he did not like this bill as he and the county board have a great relationship with their union. AN HE IS A REPBULICAN

The constitution is the frame work for laws. A right need not be enumerated in the constitution to be a right. Many of the rights that transformed the country were passed and added to the constitution after it was drafted. The abolition of slavery, women's right to vote. So just because there is no mention of collective bargaining doesn't mean it is any less a right.

So if Walker is owed by the 'Koch' brothers, who ever they are, then the Dems must be owned by the unions, Right?

Incredibly fair is in the mind of a person that has never had to worry where his next meal is coming from. If this corporate shill is so fair why does he EXEMPT 3 OTHER UNIONS FROM HIS DISMANTLING TACTICS. this group believes they can bring workers back into the 1800's.

Those of you who voted for these crooks are getting just what you asked for.

I gotta say that I'm more comfortable with that than I am getting what you asked for.

@getthefacts-1122565

Billionaire Koch Brothers are Behind Scott Walker's Effort to Kill Public Unions in Wisconsin.

Fine with me, I will take the Koch Bro. over that communist Sorros that you worship any day of the week. Also, SOMEONE needs to fight the good fight with overpayed, ineffective, bloated "work" force...if you call what they do work.

Chris,

Walker is very sharp. He knows that Wisconsin is at the point it is at because of collective bargaining and the quid pro quo that was established long ago between the dems and the unions. The situation in Wisconsin is equivalent to being robbed at gun point, wrestling the robber to the ground and have him say to you he will return your money if you will just let him keep his gun. Would you trust the robber? Well the public employee unions are the robber and Wiscosin taxpayers are the victims. Walker knows that like the robber the unions will be back again in short order with the gun, demanding more and more. There can be no reform without ending public employee collective bargaining as we know it. Wisconsin taxpayers need to back their governor and realize the unions are not their friends. Chris, would you trust the robber?

The question is why is the mainstream press so behind the obvious wrong side in this conflict?

Chris, the teachers and the union had several years to compromise and did not. If the democrats still had control, they would not have offered to compromise.

@downwith-- In Wisconsin the union and the government had been working quite well together. The union workers were paid and the government collected taxes and paid the obligations (including the pension obligations.) Walker came in, cut the tax rates and suddenly their was a crisis.

I hope this law does pass and all of the Wisconsin public employees decide to go to work either in the private sector or in other states. Wisconsin wil be known as the one state that, thanks to the Tea Party, was able to drop to number 50 out of 50 states in terms of education of its students.

"President Barack Obama and other Democrats will need the strong support of unions in the 2012 elections"

This is why sites like MSNBC are ignoring the majority, similar to their "coverage" of Obamacare and the lawsuit against Arizona.

dirp101

Hate to interrupt your opium dream but 90% of government workers could not cut it in the real world. People attracted to government are almost all not ambitious, not hard working, not creative and that is why they go into "government work". What public employees don't seem to get is they already have the best deal there is...their hard working private sector people have nothing in terms of benefits, health care (womb to tomb) and now their pay is on average better than private sector equivalent jobs. Please tell me what these f— — _ing brilliant people do so well they deserve these inflated compensation rates? Everything they touch turns to s — — t. Welfare...a mess, social worker... a mess. Finace definitely a mess. Public schools... a mess. Children not learning.. the USA falling further and further behind because our schools are getting progressively worse. So why don't you public employee types sort of amble over to the real world where an emploee's worth is based on performance and after we chew you up and send you home crying you just might see how lucky you are right now!

@downwith: You are assuming I work in the public sector, I don't.

If you don't like the pay rates or work that your public sector employees are doing, get involved. Become part of your local school board, or county board, whatever. Attend the meetings. Let your voice be heard. But do not lump all employees in one basket. Just because someone works for a government agency does not mean it is not the "real world."

And next time you decide that you need immediate assistance after a crash or when you finally are getting ready to succumb to the approach of the grim reaper, be sure to tell the police, fire, ambulance or social security workers that they are not ambitious, not hard working and not creative. As in the "real world" insulting an entire group based on your personal short comings will not get you very far.

I just do not care for the fascist tactics of Governor Walker. Anytime a Governor threatens to have his opponents arrested by the state police for failing to do as he wants I consider that to be fascist.

Also, deciding to lie to the public by stating that you are just balancing the budget when in reality you are trying to break the unions is just lying. Extremism on either side is not beneficial. When you combine it with lies it is worse.

dirp

Imagine a demonstration by tea party backers that spilled over into the Wisconsin state capitol building.

1) How long would it be before the government would tossing them out on their ears?

2) How long would it be before the lefties and the lefty press were screaming for arrests and claiming the protest was illegitimate?

So tell me what makes these spoiled brat government workers so special they can get away with disrupting the functioning of their government? Fact is violence, coercion, intimidation are what unions are all about and yet because they are a protected species of the dem party they are not challenged by the authorities or the press. Oh yeah I believe you are a government worker or closely related to one or perhaps a union organizer or other employee of a union because if you are not you are simply foolish in supporting people that are shaking you down every day.

@downwith, the fact is the Tea Party did decide to try to put together a show of force. The Tea Party is so strong that they were able to come up with approximately 2000 (thats two thousand) total demonstrators from around the whole country to support this bill. They did show up and the police had to be sure to keep them seperate from the peacefully demonstrating people who are against this bill.

You just don't seem to get it. If the state of Wisconsin, or any other government, can suddenly decide to take away any rights from any one person or groups of persons, what is to prevent them from taking rights away from you ? Do you like getting paid for your work ? Slavery being outlawed in the US has been possible only because it is legislated. Certain rights and privileges we have in the US can just as easily be removed. This is just the first step for the Tea Party to take over as the next fascist regime.

Chris.

You are fighting over Taxpayer money. The Taxpayers are paying way too much now and can not sustain the life style of the Union employees for their wages, health benefits and their retirement.

We need a break and the unions are the only ones to give us one. You have the Wisconsin workers protection law and the Federal law protecting workers. You don't need to have the ability to negotiate for wages. The Consumer Price Index should be enough for you. Very few private sector employees are tied to the CPI whether it goes up or down. Most of us haven't had a raise in 3 years. While you have.

In Wisconsin, a couple of years ago the amount of Government Union employees finally out numbered the private sector employees. We don't have enough people to continue paying your wages. You need to take a cut and come live in the real world.

As far as I am concerned, the Gov. hasn't gone far enough.

Go Gov. Walker, Go.

Dirp101:

What part of this do you not understand? The GOVERNMENT, that was elected fair and square, wants to enact a law that saves thousands of jobs, (If this law fails the only alternative is laying off government workers) and instead of our president supporting the government he supports the unions.The Representatives that are supposed to do a job, not hold the process hostage, are hiding out. Where is our government process involved here? Doesnt this sound more like our "Organizer in Chief" kind of politics instead of the constitution? My hope is the teachers that called in sick so they could protest as well as the "doctor" that was seen writing "sick" notes for them both get fired for their gross neglect of their duties. Remember, the teachers want to tell you "its all about the kids" but they dont show up to work to educate them. Sounds like it might be time for a career change for them.

dirp101=

Are you a resident of Wisconsin? Because I am.

The main reasons the Tea Party didn't come out in force:

1. The Wisconsin legislature, including Governor Walker, are already trying to do what we want them to do, with this bill.

2. The tea party members (or those that agree with them like me) actually have to work for a living. We can't always take off work with pay on short notice. Or we would get fired if we lied about being sick to go to a political protest.

3. The police weren't there to protect the pro-union protestors from the tea party protestors. During last week, the so called 'peaceful' pro-union protestors had already demonstrated aggression toward some pro-Walker counter protestors. Did you see any signs comparing the union leaders to Hitler or Hosni Mubarek? Or with human excrement on them, as there was one that said 'This is Walker'?

Seriously Downwith, you wouldn't last five minutes in a classroom, the kids, their parents, and then the administrators would eat you alive! I've worked in both the public and private sector and hands down by far teachers must continually do more and more with less, more students with less authority over them and less finacing, than any other profession I've ever experienced.

Most here don't even understand, are ignorant, of the federally (SCA) mandated collective bargaining process for teachers. The fed requires that they negotiate their contracts through a collective bargaining process using a local union comprised of local educators; they don't get a choice in the matter. Legally, and technically I might add, niether does Wisconsin if they want to recieve federal education funding from Washington!

Hence this Governor is a moron who's going to get Wisconsin in a deep litigious mess pretty soon here unless someone with half a brain steps up and shows him some pictures of what's going to hit the fan with this bill, because he obviously can't read the law!

What a great argument, Downwith.

In essence, because the private sector is underpaid and under-compensated and has at its disposal no means of redress, the obvious next step is to support legislation that will similarly reduce the public sector to silent, submissive and disposable minions. Hurrah! What a marvel.

I don't have to be a resident of Wisconsin to be dead set against this. If Scott Walker succeeds the Governor of my state, Rick Scott may try the same thing.

I stand with the unions in spirit. And I will march with them If they must shed blood again in peaceful protest.

I kinda like Walker's honesty. Yes, the unions are open to accepting some benefit cost increases, but Walker assured them that is not the core issue. Collective bargaining rights. In other words, money is short, but more important is suppressing the voice of the citizen. Your right to ask for a better station in life is off the table. Peones. Back to the fields or face the masters whip.

Imagine that, and I don't even like unions.

@oldwool ... great points. So, we are not all in this together. If some are not doing well then why should those in tax payer paid jobs have to take less. Great logic ... makes sense to me. Why don't we also keep paying unemployment forever, cut taxes, do more stimulus spending and the like. That would really keep things going well until the economy turns around .... LOL. I'm cracking myself up. Is it cloudy up there in your dream world?

They have to join the union to get the job in the first place. If you do not join you do not have the job
BS#@#@#

Why should a person who accepts a job that enjoys fair wages and benefits negotiated by a union not have any responsibility?

You get to enjoy the benefits and pay that the union negotiated for you, but you don't have any responsibility to participate in the union.

I thought conservatives didn't like free-riders.

I guess they have a double-standard for everything, just like Big Government deficit spending was perfectly fine when Bush was doing it.

This bill does not strip anyone's right to join or organize a union. It does limit the bargaining rights of public unions, says nothing of private sector unions. It also makes it an option to all public employees whether or not to join the union, thereby giving them back their Freedom of Choice. Currently all public employees are forced into a union and forced to pay dues which are automatically taken from their paycheck. They have no freedom of choice in the matter.

Public employees are not forced into a union. That is a complete bogus story. I know a lot of public employees and none are part of the union.

"According to the Weekly Standard, the average Wisconsin teacher’s salary ( not including benefits) is $50,000. The cost of the proposed contributions to the retirement and medical plans will be 5%..let’s say $2,500. And because these contributions will be on a BEFORE-TAX basis, let’s assume the out-of pocket (after-tax) cost will then be $2,000/year

Union dues are $1,100. And under the proposal, teachers will no longer be required to join the union. So..to the teacher now facing a $2,000/year reduction in take home pay..where’s the easiest, most obvious place to cut..Why, of course..union dues."

This is one of many places you can find the fact that in Wisconsin they are currently required to join the union. Which is why there is a law being passed in that state that says you no longer have to join.

while ronald reagan embarked on his union killing agenda....he condemned the unions in America ...at the same time he praised lech walenska and the solidarity union in poland for standing up to there government

pygme1. Show me where it says in the constitution that they have a right to be in a union!!!!! Please!!!! No one is forbidding them to assemble and does not fall under freedom of speech.

The International Human Rights watch recognizes collective bargaining as a basic human right. Countries that prohibit collective bargaining are not democratic/free countries. These are not countries we want to emulate. This should be a basic right for all workers, public and private.

I stand for all of the teachers, social workers, nurses, and others who dedicate their lives to making lives better for others. They are not demanding more money. They are certainly aware of the financial crisis. (Although Wisconsin was in better shape until this dictator put in massive tax cuts and pay raises for his cronies) What they and we are fighting for vehemently is the right to retain the process of collective bargaining, a democratic process, one that is valued in a free society.

Negotiation is being sought out. The dictator refuses. That is reprehensible.

As we watch the power increase for billionaires, we watch this democracy dissolve into an oligarchy.....look that up.

Jac: Amazing you used the words "Freedom of Choice" when applying to joining the union. But, you probably would not use it for a woman's Rights of Choice when it comes to her body. Shame on you.

Hey jack wad, they still can use collective bargaining but they will be limited to how much they can ask for, as long as you are a tax payer and the union wants more of my money then I should have a say so in what is paid out and if I make less then a unionized worker and they get a retierment and medical at my expense and I have to pay extra for it being in the private sector then there is a problem. The union in the private sector can do what it wants and god bless them but if it is state tax dollars then I want the right to dictate raises and the services you receive.

kkarhu?

Walker has been in office for a month and a half. Even if he had enacted the 'massive tax cuts and pay raises for his cronies' that you speak of (if that were true), they wouldn't have yet taken effect!

You are speaking out of the 'left' side of your face and don't know what you're talking about. As a citizen of Wisconsin, I know that you ARE NOT one yourself!

Ignorance abounds, unlike most labor unions membership is optional with teacher's unions. Yes, you get to reap all the same benefits of said negotiations without paying any dues as do those who do pay dues; except legal help should you need it, then you're on your own.

Most unions you have to join -- but you can get nearly all your dues back if you choose to.

So if you are a freeloader - someone has already paved the way for you - so quick crying about it and freeload if that's your style.

There doesn't need to be a law for people to not have to join -- they can just get a non-union job -- who is stopping you?

@slightlyold

It's funny you would make an assumption about someone you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about. But since you have no intelligent factual response to my post, what else was there for you to do but to make false accusations, painting everyone into the same "right wing" stereotype. Shame on YOU.

I ABSOLUTELY agree with a women's FREEDOM OF CHOICE. I believe in our Freedoms, period.

@CitizenFrank - can you show me some actual reference that says memberbership to teachers unions is optional in states that are not "right to work" states. It is NOT optional in the state of Wisconsin, it is required even for the teachers, see my reference?? It is NOT optional in many states, even the teachers.

@MaryinOhio - I am not a freeloader, I have a degree I worked and paid for. Husband is self employed and employees 10 others he provides health insurance, salary, 401K and paid time off to. You can disagree with others ideas without calling them names, can't you? Maybe not. How sad.

independent jim...(#12.7).."while ronald reagan embarked on his union killing agenda....he condemned the unions in America"

If you are talking about firing the PATCO employees, You are either grossly misinformed by listening to the drivel of others or you are purposely saying it to bolster your position. His position on Unions is quite clear and he makes a very sharp distinction between private and public sector unions.

I urge you to watch at least the first 3 minutes of Reagan's actual Statement, live from the WhiteHouse to the press....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3ZTCPJ39LA

Chris G...Walker is a Politician...what else is new?

"Teachers throguhout our country have made huge concessions to salary and health care"

Paying 5% to your own pension is not a concession . . . paying 12% of your HI is not a concession . . .

There are no teachers taking unpaid furlough days. Are you serious? That would mean students would be taking furlough days as well. They work 180 days a year.

This is WISCONSIN where the teachers have one of the best health care coverage in the country. They pay 6% of their premiums. They pay practically nothing into their pensions.

You say "enough is enough" but every sniveling, whining excuse you have made DOES NOT APPLY to the teachers of Wisconsin. They have not taken large pay cuts, they have not paid more towards retirement and heath care.

Where you come up with this stuff?

Tom, what you are seeing is the Christian Taliban's war on education and labor at the same time. Right wing extremist Christian are dead set on destroying public education because they see it as the antichrist and communistic as it doesn't want to teach creationism.

wow are you out there vielman.

the right's the fear mongerer's though.

You want fear mongering? Go listen to Beck claim that the teachers are being led by the antichrist and the 12th Imam.

I dont listen to Beck or Fox News. Neither does the majority of Republicans but every liberal on the vine lumps all conservatives in the same group in every single discussion.

You're acting far-left and assuming anybody that doesn't agree with you is far-right. Pretty convienent for your arguments.

Do you have any problems with the signs floating around in the protests?

I'm pretty sure I remember you on all of the Tuscon seeds.

boo hooo hoooo. they made the choice to work for the security of the job.or for the (cough,cough) children ,50,000 a yr for 8 months a yearof work,sure,

Most teachers pay for classroom materials and items out of their own pockets. I am sorry you view teachers in such a negative light....but then again, you have not sat with the child who describes the sexual abuse he/she is enduring, or observed the bruises on a beaten child, calmed the angry and out of control young person, who finally found someone to believe in him/her, and observed students "light up" in your classroom....most teachers I know, myself included, did not choose to become educators for "job security".....we are in this profession because of the passion we experience in our desire to make a difference in the lives of young people.... we are in this profession because it is a calling with a deepr meaning to us than what you state....and by the way, I am near retirement and make $35,000. Educators take a loss when they change to another district or another state.....but like many, I love what I do. I always have. One does not really know what they have not experienced....your sarcasm is offensive, byron.

Tom, in PA the Teachers just got a 5% cost of living increase because "It's for the Children". On the other hand the Police Department and Fire Department voluntarily refused the cost of living increase due to Lebanon County being bankrupt but the TEACHERS HAD to have their increase. The city was against it but the Unions made sure they got it. Didn't make them better teachers either.

Stand FIRM Governor. Who ever doesn't want to work FIRE them and rehire someone who wants the job.

I agree with Jeanne 353194! Stand FIRM Governor! Many valid points in the comments. The unions have driven people out of jobs due to demands.
I have no respect for the Senators who abandoned their jobs and went into hiding....to stall the vote. I think that should be grounds for having them removed from office. They aren't for the unions they are afraid to vote because they don't want to have to risk standing for something that might affect their re-election. I hope they are reprimanded. The teachers who abandoned their students by not showing up for work should be reprimanded as well. That's what happens in the real world. Support the Govenor he is trying to do his jobs.... many other budgets have been cut so it is time to a share brother.

Really Tom because in Florida they pay nothing towards a retirement or healthcare so what world are you living in, maybe in your state, so keep it to your state and quit making it sound like everybody is paying there own way, the protest ssem to be more people from out of state then the locals it must be nice to be paid by the union to be at a protest in another state and by the way if the unions back Obama and that is why the Dems are trying what ever they can do to stop this, I my self find it hard to be believe that in GM down fall the union came out smelling like a rose and those of us with secured stocks got nothing. Before you say anything the latest report about stocks being sold said the union broke even if not a little better then even. The stocks were not to be sold for at least a year and t5hey are right back in business and those of us who had our retirement in gm LOST OUT BIG TIME SO THE UNION DESERVES TO BE PUT IN ITS PLACE.

Most teachers pay for classroom materials and items out of their own pockets

No, kkarhu, they don't. As the parent of a school age child, I'm here to tell you that we pay for them. Twice. The first time through taxes to fund our public schools, the second time at the beginning of the school year - and then about every other month thereafter - when we are given the note in our child's backpack letting us know all the classroom supplies they have run out of, which we are expected to purchase and replace.

The issue of unions is a whole other topic I don't have the energy to even poke at right now, in this emotional climate. But let's at least get some of the basic details straight.

It is the liberals who have bullied the taxpayer which resulted in Scott Walker being elected. And surprise! He is doing what he said he would.

Walker doesn't have to negotiate with the union. That's your #1 mistake right there.

Clearly you do not understand the laws of the state of Wisconsin.

They would not have made the concessions had he not brought up the bill. Just like when Obama signed the $26 billion stimulus bill to keep teachers on the job. The teachers in Danville Il were talking about going on strike. People losing their jobs because of debt and instead of trying to retain their friends and co-workers.......F$ck them I want mine. Well if I were Gov. Walker, I would be sending out 6000 pink slips, and those that have not been at work because of phony doctors excuses would be the first to go. Since these teachers are out with excuses stating mental anguish, maybe they should be made to take a mental health exam before being allowed to return to work. That would look real good in their work record.

BS, from start to finish, Jenkins. I'm guessing you're a good little dittohead in real life. And, just like your hero-gods, you believe with all your black little heart that allowing one party to a contract to renege on it and alter it at will, with no negotiation whatsoever, is somehow the "American way".

And, perhaps it was. In the 1800s. Which rightwingnuts have suddenly discovered as their new "golden era'.

@skwyz1 - I'm sure you said exactly the same thing when the Dem's in congress rammed Obamacare down our throats?

Walker doesn't have to negotiate with the union

That's yet to be determined,

Rick they already agreed to make the concessions in December. That is what Walker campaigned on.

They made further concessions last year through furloughs and time off.

Never did Scott Lie Walker campaign on removing bargaining rights. So he is a bald faced liar. That was his promise to the Koch Brothers who funneled $43000 to his campaign.

Randy, do you have difficulties comprehending the passage of time? The health care bill was in Congress for something over a year! Even at that, it took a few stupid insurance companies raising their rates precipitously to get it passed!

Obama 'rammed it through'? LMFAO! Which parallel universe do you inhabit most often?

SKWYZ1:

If you dont agree with the political process MOVE. The way this country works is if you disagree, you voice your opposition. You dont refuse to show up to hold the constitution hostage. I (and many others)dont agree with many of the things this president does. Does that give us the right to shut down the government until he resigns. NO IT DOES NOT. It gives me the right to vote him out in 2012 and get someone elected that believes in the things I believe in.

JC from IA,

Stop talking in conspiracy platitudes and focus on the facts. WI is going bankrupt in large part from the benefits their (public workers) union initially negotiated. Both my folks were WI teachers and both concede that the waste and mismanagement of funds, in conjunction with their nearly non-existent contributions to their retirement and benefits has brought the state to its fiscal knees. Try to convince yourself all you want that this is some conspiracy to get rid of unions, but the sad truth is that it is about the money. And don't believe for a second that they're going to get any public sympathy because WI's citizens are feeling the pinch (increased taxes, increased unemployment) and many realize that the Governor's bill is by all accounts very reasonable. Try to keep your emotions in check and look at the facts...not "we all know the Koch brothers are in bed" facts...FACTS like the state is running huge deficit spending, public benefits are a huge reason and something needs to be done.

JC:

He rammed it through with kickbacks, and back room deals for votes. Then the Senate passes one bill against the will of the people and the congress passes another. Then they have to agree on one bill and AT THE SAME TIME pass another bill that makes changes in the original bill because they knew that if they changed the original bill it would NEVER pass. All of this AGAINST THE WILL OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. I believe that my representatives need to vote on bills the way the majority of constituents of their state tell them to vote, not along party lines. They need to understand that they REPRESENT us, not Vote by what THEY think is right, but what WE feel is right.

JC sounds about right just like when the Dems crammed Obamacare down our throats.

For your information - Wisconsin does have a law that says the state (and therefore Governor Walker) does have to negotiate with the unions. It was passed in 1959. That is the law they are desperately trying to change.

Talons, where did I talk about conspiracies?

Sorry, unemployed, I don't consider a year+ of debate in Congress "cramming" anything.

Unlike the Wisconsin bill at issue, upon which the ink is scarcely dry.

Republicans destroyed the nation, and here is the kicker, Democrats allowed them to. Free Trade destroyed every job sent over seas. Republicans want even more Free Trade. Financial industry mess was lead by Republicans laiz fare ideology. Huge deficits because of BUSH tax cuts that Republicans rammed down everyone's throat. Two wars without ever trying to balance the budget. Republicans are on their last step. Destroy the middle class. Every time you rally against teachers, and other public servants, you rally against the middle class.

Has any Republican ever renounced these ideals? NO, therefore each and every Republican voter is either ignorant, or confused. I can't tell which. You have to be one or the other, because Republican policy hasn't changed. Therefore, we are going to keep crashing into that brick wall, either you don't know better than ramming your head into a brick wall, or you found out that you like people to suffer, along with yourself.

I hate almost everyone in Washington DC, because even thou they are the best and brightest, they won't fix the mess we are in. Our presidents for the last 30 or so years, just don't get it. President Obama instead of just adding a HealthCare bill of rights, which is what his bill gave to the regular people, he made the law so complicated with all the loop holes for Mega corporations. Instead of taking some power from the Corporations that dictate health care, he might have just given them more power.

Ending Free Trade would fix our economy in 3 months. If businesses don't have to compete with Chinese/international labor, true small businesses would spring to life, because the US worker won't have to compete with the Chinese for a job.

Then we could move on to the no so federal Federal Reserve and the whole banking and investment industries.