*they're

I agree. There really is no place for gay people right now. People just can't get over forcing their personal opinions on others.

(thanks, Randi)

Brooke: I hate to be politically incorrect again, but Africa pretty much sucks for everyone involved there except the corrupt bums who run each country on the entire continent. In many African countries, gays are being scape-goated for the misery of the general population. Reminds me of the Nazis.

ah yes more christian killings in the name of god

What this story teaches us is important to remember:

Words do have effects. Inciting violence among people who aleady follow a belief system that includes hatred of others - including rival politicians - does lead to violence.

Sarah Who? and others may deny it, but their words caused death and horror in Tucson. Their words are literally verbal terrorism.

In the United States, virulent anti-gay speech has led to many horrible hate crimes and deaths. The people of Westboro Baptist Church and other hate-filled anti-gay preachers are verbal terrorists.

And Uganda's Rolling Stone "newspaper" (actually a propaganda organ) commits verbal terrorism.

Ellorgan : "Exactly where in the article did it say anything about either Christians or that this was done in the name of God, boddaddytoo? "

Your ignorance is showing...Perhaps if you read news articles once in a while you would know about The Family and David Bahati.

yo waterdog, shut the hell up. evangelicals who promote hate & intolerance are pure evil and if Sarah Palin believes what those idiotic evangelicals believe she is evil also. you, her & those evangelicals is exactly what is wrong with this world. how does it feel to have darkness inside of you?

Africa is also not so great if you happen to be an albino or any female over the age of 6 months

...the cesspool of civilization

Evangelical missionaries did go to Africa and did preach to the people there that homosexuals were a threat to their children.

The Africans took it literally and ran with it.

One day, these well intentioned "Christians" will have to account for the seeds of hate that they sowed.

It amazes me that there are so many people in this world that get all upset (and even violent) over.... what kind of person someone else finds attractive.

I mean, if someone walked up to me and said "EEEWWW! Your wife has brown hair and brown eyes????!?!?!?! DISGUSTING! I HATE YOU!", I would conclude that that person was completely insane. So would anyone. Being anti-gay is every bit as senseless and insane.

DieHardLib...thank you for your ignorant rant, proof of liberal bias and lack of knowledge. I am a Christian and I believe the homesexual lifestyle is sin. That said, so iis murder, stealing, etc. Nobody should be killed or treated badly for what they do and if they are doing it in the name of Christ they are WRONG!

As for it being illegal, that is nonsense, but to blame Christians is wrong. Should that Christian group have butted into that country. NO!

The other joke is they think the Westerner's brought homosexuality in. Pretty sure they just didn't have a name for it. Ignorance is sad.

Uganda is only 12% Muslim as of the 2002 census. The rest are predominately Catholics or Anglican.

Same reason many Africans don't use condoms, pope says their bad... So many sheep.

Where are all you people getting that they were ignorant? I think the word you are looking for is illiterate. The headline said "hang them", not "beat them". Geez....

Warchief1

OMG...OH NO, you didn't just go there.

"sick and twisted lifestyle"? Are you speaking about yourself here?

ROFL - man you people are amusing.

Robbopaloobop

I thought South Florida was the cesspool of civilization

"I thought South Florida was the cesspool of civilization"

And here i thought it was Detroit, or CA. Civilization sure has a lot of cesspools.

Hey blather, The Pope says you can use condoms to prevent the spread of disease. Personally, I'd rather Uganda be Christian than Muslim......

Warchief#1

"You circle jerkers can't blame it on Christians either... Don't make us destroy you."

HAHAHAHA! Perfect irony! You can't be gone soon enough...

You can thank Richard Roberts, Oklahoma evangelist son of Oral Roberts, for this cesspool of hate and intolerance against gays in Africa. He and his group planted the seed of hate in the simple weak minds of the African leaders, who are now responsible for these deaths.

So, words don't have consequences, as the Right wingers would have us to believe?

"Hey blather, The Pope says you can use condoms to prevent the spread of disease. Personally, I'd rather Uganda be Christian than Muslim......"

The damage was done way before he changed his stance, it will take years for the taboo to cease.

Since the senseless and arbitrary prohibition about homosexuality is written in the old testament, and all three abrahamic religions (judaism, christianity and islam) all derive from that one book, then all three preach that homosexuality is a "sin".

The belief that it is a "sin" even though people are born with their orientation, it harms no one, and is really no one else's business...is what has led to the wholesale persecution of homosexuals for the last 2000 years.

What is happening in Africa right now is no different from what was happening here a few short decades ago or less. Matthew Shepard was killed in 1998. The laws against sodomy were only conclusively struck down by our Supreme Court in 2003. To ridicule Africa while failing to acknowledge our own backwards and reprehensible thinking and actions is hypocritical.

Anyone who says they believe homosexuality is a "sin" is part of the problem. There are too many people who think they can sit in their comfortable homes and righteously condemn others and pretend that their condemnation has nothing to do with the beatings, killings, firings, evictions, and general mistreatment of them. It is that condemnation that allows others to believe that it's ok to treat them differently, ok to deprive them of the same basic rights the rest of us enjoy, ok to look the other way when they are persecuted.

"Sin" is an imaginary and arbitrary construct. Is incest a sin? Yet all people derive from one couple? Abraham married his half-sister, Lot impregnated both his daughters, yet god "favored" both men. Is child abuse or murder a sin? The bible tells you not to spare the rod and to stone your disobediant child to death. Is adultery a sin? God favored David who arranged for a man's death so he could sleep with his wife. The examples are too numerous to actually believe that "sin" is anything more than a convenient way to arbitrarily discriminate when it suits, and even if it was consistent, religious beliefs are not a valid reason to withhold basic human rights.

Unfortunately the gay communities and individuals have become the new "RED HEADED"stepchild in the world arena!

Actually, Brooke and Bo Bo...in Florida, we residents like to refer to South Florida as "The Toilet of the South"

or, to use the native tounge : "El Tocador del Sur"

Detroit and CA are just sh*tholes, I'm sorry to say....

Here come the haters again trying to tie all the world's ills on the "evil Christian Evangelicals". Here's a little food for thought. Haven't Evangelicals held their conferences in Uganda in the past with out this effect? I have attended plenty of conferences here in America and I've never left there with the thought, "Hmm, I think I'll go kill me a gay person today." That has never been the thrust of the message. So unless any of the accusers can come up with an excerpt from the conference where someone directly advocated for killing gays than you have no weight behind your argument. And don't give me this pathetic line that because the Bible refers to homosexuality as a sin it somehow promotes murder. In that case every drunkard, fornicator, adulterrer etc. would be equaly in danger. Real Christians understand that gay people are sinners just like the rest of us, only difference is that some of us have repented and turned from our sins while others still live in theirs.

If it wasn't for the EVILgelical "christians from the US going to Uganda and spewing intolerance, ignorance, bigotry and hate this awful murder would not have happened

The vile spewed in so very many pulpits weekly should be worrisome to all intelligent folks

Combine the vile that these EVILgelicals spew and the ignorance of some folks listening and these murders will continue and the blood is on the hands of ALL christians who allow their leaders to spread such intolerance, bigotry and hate

For all of you that have not been following this story from the beginning...it is a know fact that this heinous movement was created by the evangelicals in Uganda. Go ahead and do a search on the internet for any legitimate news source and you'll find the information. Besides, the only reason ANY person is against the rights of gay people comes from a twisted religious belief that God hates gays!! There's no other reason to be against gay people unless you've been brainwashed by religious teachings that encourage people to hate anyone that doesn't believe what they do!

I'm sorry but any god that tells someone to hate, hurt, kill or exclude anyone in their name is not a real god!

I second Notkidding's post. Well said. Sandman might want to read it.

A great big howdy, to all you homophobes and self anointed christians. You do realize that folks who are secure in their own sexual identity do not have a strong emotional response to others just because they are gay? Your highly emotional and mean spirited response to this story indicates that you have an insecure sexual identity which you project on to others. If you were secure in your self identity as a heterosexual, you would not wast energy getting so angry because someone else is simply gay. Much of your anger comes from your own fear that you may yourself have occasional feelings of sexual attraction to members of your own sex.

If a person is secure in their sexual identity, they do not feel the need to go around making a big deal; proclaiming at the top of their lungs that they are not gay.

In general, healthy and secure personalities don't waste energy going around making sure everyone knows how healthy and secure they are. To the degree someone goes around proclaiming their honesty or their bravery or their heterosexuality, publicly, and unnecessarily, they might as well put a message on their forehead announcing their personal insecurity concerning the so publicly proclaimed personality or character trait.

And as for you folks who call yourself christians, and display so much mean spiritedness, if Christ has brought you so much personal salvation, how come you seem so lacking in love or personal peace?

"Combine the vile that these EVILgelicals spew and the ignorance of some folks listening and these murders will continue"

Great, now I have to worry about some ignorant folks who will read rbach's post and will think it's OK to kill us Christians. When this happens will my blood be on your hands?

Oh, and NotKidding, where did you come up with your imaginary set of morals, did you arbitrarily pull them out of your rear end? I agree that religious beliefs are not a valid reason to withhold basic human rights, however the fact that we have these rights doesn't take away my right to consider them sinful. The truth is that some people won't be happy until Christianity is completely censored, then perhaps the world will be rid of that nagging conviction that comes from the preaching of God's word. As for your out of context analysis of the Bible, please don't try to argue the scriptures with those of us that have spent our lives studying it. That would be as pathetic as me trying to argue the laws of physics with a physicist.

One day, these well intentioned "Christians" will have to account for the seeds of hate that they sowed.

As will every liberal who ever called someone a racist for not supporting Obama, and every liberal who ever posted attacks against Palin. Just remember that. Every word out of every mouth will be made accountable on that day, and EVERY PERSON will stand accountable for every sound uttered out of their mouths.

EVERY PERSON

oh sandman

nice try at twisting things

Did I call for any violence as so very many EVILgelical christian leaders do???

NOPE not at all but since you seem unable to comprehend the actual words written you twist and turn and try to spin this into a christian bashing thing which we all know is plain and simply just your BULLSH!T

Go back and reread my post

I posted facts if the US EVILgelical christians did not go to UGANDA and preach their brand of intolerance, bigotry and hate this murder and many more would not have happened (that is fact)

the second part I wrote was (please learn to use a full quote and stop reading these posts like you do when you read your bible)

Combine the vile that these EVILgelicals spew and the ignorance of some folks listening and these murders will continue and the blood is on the hands of ALL christians who allow their leaders to spread such intolerance, bigotry and hate

So either you are a christian who believes that these EVILgelical christians should continue with their vile intolerance, bigotry and hate or you are a christian that believes the vile spewing should stop

So since you claim to have studied the bible for so many years tell us all the answer to this simple question

What did Jesus ever say about homosexuality?????????/

am waiting to here your words -- you know the ones you get from the bible, a book written by many men and translated by many others and interpreted by so many thousands more -- yup I am waiting with baited breath (NOT)

rbach

I'm sitting here trying to decide whether your rant is worthy of a response. What the heck, I'll humor you. I always get a kick out of people who say "this is fact" like somehow their statement makes it so. Here is a fact, you still haven't produced any actual evidence of statements made at the conference in question that advocated for this violence. You are merely making a baseless conjecture. Therefore, I made a similar conjecture based on your own twisted logic that labeling something as evil causes people to commit murder.

And just for clarification, I don't hate gay people, and regardless of how sarcastic I may sound in my comments I really don't hate you either. I simply believe that everyone of us will be held accountable for our sins based on the word of God. 1Corinthians 6: "⁹ Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,a]" class="footnote">[a] nor sodomites, ¹⁰ nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. ¹¹ And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." If calling homosexuality a sin is the equivalent of spewing hatred than that means I must hate myself since I once fell under several of these sins mentioned. Contrary to what you may believe I don't advocate that we impose laws based upon what I consider to be sinful. Past governments have failed miserably at enforcing morality upon the populace. In the end it's a personal decision that everyone has to make on their own.

Oh, and NotKidding, where did you come up with your imaginary set of morals, did you arbitrarily pull them out of your rear end?

I didn't read them in a book written over two centuries ago filled with superstition, ignorance and bigotry. I didn't decide to adopt the "morals" of a "deity" that rewarded a lying, drunken, pimping, pedophile, incestuous rapist as "righteous" while murdering a town full of innocent men, women and children for the ridiculously fictitious "crime" of roving bands of homosexual rapists. Talk about a homophobe's fantasy paranoia...have you ever heard of roving bands of homosexual rapists...ever...except in that storybook?

My morals come from reality...common sense, direct experience and consistently provable results. I have compassion and empathy for others so it's very easy for me to tell if my words or actions are harmful or helpful. I don't want to be the kind of person who causes suffering or pain. I don't need a book to tell me to buy groceries for my elderly neighbor whose Social Security just covers her rent, or to donate time or money to the animal shelter or to be honest on my taxes or go back in the store and return any overpayment of my change. I do those things because that's who I prefer to be...someone who can be trusted, someone who is honest and someone who can be relied on for help. It helps that I don't believe I was born flawed and sinful and unable to prevent myself from being an ass. It also helps that I know I have to live with my choices for the rest of my life, not get "forgiven" for everything so that I'm free of guilt.

Not one thing in my life has ever indicated to me that gays harm others by being gay. I do not have an ego that makes me believe that I have a right to dictate what is "proper" intimate behavior for others, as long as no one is being victimized. My morals (based on real world experience) tell me that love is a good thing...that people are not all identical and that condemning others for something so basic as the orientation they are born with is sick and hateful.

I agree that religious beliefs are not a valid reason to withhold basic human rights, however the fact that we have these rights doesn't take away my right to consider them sinful.

No it doesn't. But your belief that they are "sinful" just for being who they are, IS the reason gays are allowed to be persecuted. You still get to believe it....you just don't get to pretend innocence.

The truth is that some people won't be happy until Christianity is completely censored, then perhaps the world will be rid of that nagging conviction that comes from the preaching of God's word.

Actually...the truth is that no one cares what you believe until it adversely impacts the lives of others. If your religion cannot survive without actively promoting the hatred and abuse of innocent people, then it should be eradicated.

As for your out of context analysis of the Bible, please don't try to argue the scriptures with those of us that have spent our lives studying it.

Ah...the usual response..."out of context". It's not rocket science...it's a collection of ancient myths and superstitions and stories that I am more than capable of understanding in context.

But...since you are such a knowledgable biblical scholar who has spent your life studying it...perhaps you would be kind enough to back up your baseless accustion with an explanation of how my remarks are "out of context"?

That would be as pathetic as me trying to argue the laws of physics with a physicist.

It wouldn't be anything at all like that. It takes years of specialized study to be a physicist. Anyone can read a book in a few days or weeks. What takes you a lifetime is trying to contort and fabricate the context to make it agree with reality. Good luck with that.

I've read some pretty vile stuff on this thread...on both sides. But what I want to know is why everyone thinks the Ugandans are so easily influenced by a group of religious nuts from America that they can't make their own decisions? The truth is homosexuality has been a hot button, violence inducing issue for a very long time there...long before a group of American wack jobs showed up. I think it would be a good time for everyone to give the credit where credit is due. The Ugandan people are not a bunch of kids playing in a sandbox on a playground. They are adults making their own decisions.

If I and 100 other people went there and told them that drinking water was a sin and anyone caught drinking water would be subject to a public hanging do you think suddenly the populous would go seek out water drinkers and beat them to death? No. They are doing this because they want to, not because a party of hate mongers went over there.

Dear Sandman and ShuShu-2262475,

Senator James Inhofe (R-OK) has taken at least 20 "missionary" trips overseas since he's been in office, paid for by U.S. taxpayers, using military transport. He is especially fond of Uganda, boasting that he has "adopted" the East African nation. In fact, he is so fond of Uganda, he has invited its leaders to become members of the not-so secret, secret society known as the Family in D.C., according to Jeff Sharlet, whose new book, "The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power" exposes just that.

You may have heard of the Family because of the book. Or you may have heard of the Family because of recent sex scandals involving members Sen. John Ensign and South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford, who is facing 37 ethics charges for abandoning his job to visit his mistress in Argentina.

But the Family is much more than sex scandals - it is large and powerful, with tentacles that reach every corner of the world. It's members include several high-ranking Congressmen such as Republicans Inhofe, Sen. Sam Brownback (KS), Sen. Jim DeMint (SC), Sen. Chuck Grassley (IA), Sen. John Thune (SD), Sen. Joe Pitts (PA), and several others.

Inhofe took David Bahati under his wing, making him a core member of the Family. Bahati is the author of Uganda's Anti-Homosexuality Bill. The Bill creates a new crime called "aggravated homosexuality" in Uganda and imposes automatic life imprisonment or the death penalty for its offense. "Aggravated homosexuality" is defined by the Bill as sex with a disabled person, having HIV/AIDS, use of drugs or alcohol that leads to gay sex, knowing a gay person and not reporting it, or speaking positively about same-sex marriage.

Bahati is head of the Family-sponsored Africa Leadership Forum,. It's likely the "Bahati Bill", as it is commonly known in Uganda, will become law, because of the Family's financial support, power, and influence in country. Sharlet says the Family has poured millions of dollars into the Ugandan Anti-Homosexuality campaign, and considers Uganda's President Yoweri Museveni as the "key man" for the Family in Uganda. Sharlet says Museveni can go to Brownback or any other Family member if he wants money for arms or anything else, and stays at the Family-owned Cedars House when he's in D.C.

The Family's main tenet is, "Jesus didn't come to take sides, he came to take over." Sharlet says the core rhetoric of the Family is that Christ's message wasn't about love, mercy, or forgivness as most of us believe. It was about power. Coe was quoted as saying Hitler, Stalin, and Chairman Mao understood this message. He was quick to admit these were evil men, but he said they understood power.

An article in the Guardian UK by Xan Rice reveals that "ex-gay" U.S. Evangelists are the main activists behind Uganda's "Bahati Bill". Both opponents and supporters agree that the impetus for the bill came in March during a seminar in Kampala to "expose the truth behind homosexuality and the homosexual agenda".

The seminar was organized by Stephen Langa, who runs the Family Life Network (sound familiar?) and has been spreading the message that gays are targeting schoolchildren. "They give money to children to recruit schoolmates – once you have two children, the whole school is gone," Langa said in an interview. Asked if there had been any court case to prove this was happening, he replied: "No, that's why this law is needed."

"After the conference Langa arranged for a petition signed by thousands of concerned parents to be delivered to parliament in April. Within a few months the bill had been drawn up," reports Rice.

It's unlikely at this point that anything can be done to stop Ugandan leaders from passing the Anti-Homosexuality Law.

How could high-ranking U.S. leaders support such a clearly hate-filled piece of legislation? What's happening now in Uganda is an early warning. These people honestly believe God and Jesus are guiding them in their quest for world domination, no matter what collateral damage is done in the process.

So yes, Evangelicals are part and parcel to this crime. Evangelicals have blood on their hands along with Ensign, Brownback, DeMint, Grassley, Thune, and Pitts.

Notkidding,

Those things you mentioned are sins of course. All those people, Abraham, Lot, David - they were sinners. You are a sinner, I am a sinner. Everyone is a sinner. This is the foundation of Christianity. If we were not sinners, we would not need redemption.

The problem is that Christians, or anyone, believe that certain sins are worse than others. Often these "worse" sins are sins we are less likely to commit. Therefore, Homosexuality is seen as one of the worst because only a fraction of people are attracted to their same gender. Whereas lying and gossip are seen as lesser sins because everyone does them. According to Christian teaching, this is a falsehood. All sins are the same. Therefore, if all sins are the same and I can go to Heaven despite all of my sins, then so can a homosexual person.

@NoKidding-that response made my day/week....Perfect!

sandman

well if you did not get the facts that have been in the news for months regarding the EVILgelicals associated with the group known as "the family" then you missed all the pertinent info regarding any and all killings of gays in Uganda

here is just one link of thousand you can find with a little bit of google

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/144403/uganda%27s_%22kill_the_gays%22_bill_tied_to_rick_warren_mentor/

you should also spend some time reading the articles posted by SPIKE post 1.43

so yes what I stated as fact can be proved with empirical evidence which makes it fact

I am not making any baseless conjecture regarding my statement but rather a logical deduction based on hearing and reading what many many many "christian" leaders spew -- these "christian" leaders do not stop at saying gay people are evil they go as far as saying all gays should be put to death while they mis quote from their bible and apparently have no actual knowledge of what being a christian is

If a christian allows all these hundreds if not thousands of christian leaders to continue spewing their utter intolerance, bigotry and hate then as I stated the blood of this killing of a gay man is on their hands

Just so you know Jesus never mentioned a single thing about homosexuality in his 33 years on the planet -- obviously it wasn't a big deal to him since he talked much about what was a big deal --

as to any quote from your bible -- save it I have read it several times and am amazed at all the contradictions and inconsistencies in the book then again after all it is just that a book written by many men and translated by many, many more men and interpreted by many thousands more -- so don't come back with the never changing word crap because I can show you hundreds of translations that have definitely changed with time

I have no issue with what you believe so long as you and others keep it to themselves and feel free to share it among others of your ilk in your tax payer funded little churches but when any of these "christian" leaders spew such vile hatred out in a public forum then they need to be charged with hate speech and sentenced accordingly-- st the very lest called for what they are which is MURDERERS

Notkidding,

Those things you mentioned are sins of course. All those people, Abraham, Lot, David - they were sinners.

Yes...according to some parts of that bible...but they never repented. Not once. God didn't once rebuke them for those sins, and in fact, he rewarded and favored them. So calling them "sins" is completely meaningless. The real definition of "sin" if you are to believe the bible, is whatever god happens to be annoyed with that day. Since he hasn't "written" anything new in over 2000 years, he may have a completely different set by now.

You are a sinner, I am a sinner. Everyone is a sinner. This is the foundation of Christianity. If we were not sinners, we would not need redemption.

It certainly IS the foundation of christianity...if you don't buy the "damnation" poison then you don't need the "salvation" antidote. I am not buying it. You can be a "sinner" if you want. It makes it easer for you to screw people over since it's not your fault...you were born sinful. I wasn't.

The problem is that Christians, or anyone, believe that certain sins are worse than others. Often these "worse" sins are sins we are less likely to commit. Therefore, Homosexuality is seen as one of the worst because only a fraction of people are attracted to their same gender.

True. Gays provide a scapegoat for all the lying, cheating, adultering religious people...they can say "at least I'm not gay". Call me crazy...but I really don't think that's a good enough reason to treat 10% of the population like crap.

Whereas lying and gossip are seen as lesser sins because everyone does them. According to Christian teaching, this is a falsehood. All sins are the same. Therefore, if all sins are the same and I can go to Heaven despite all of my sins, then so can a homosexual person.

It's interesting that you've got your beliefs so nicely packaged. You can condemn gays, look the other way or remain silent when they are abused, and justify it all to yourself because they have the same chance that you do to buy into the belief set that condemns them as abominations.

As long as religions teach that perfectly normal, inborn orientations are "sinful" then religions teach bigotry and discrimination...period. Where bigotry and discrimination are taught, violence and abuse always follow.

Religions are not innocent bystanders, they are the instigators and the absolvers of violence against gays.

Yes...according to some parts of that bible...but they never repented. Not once

Can you prove this claim? Because every one of those persons you mentioned repented, it's right there in black and white.

You want me to prove that something doesn't exist?

Why does that sound so familiar? Sigh.

Ok...find a bible and read it. Show me where Abraham repented marrying his sister. Or where Lot repented raping his daughters. Or where Adam and Ever repented having sex with their children. Since you won't be able to do that because it's not in there, then it's proof it doesn't exist.

No doubt there is some "everyone repented" passage...but that's not quite the same, now is it? Not when this "god" continued to heap favors on these guys without once rebuking them for their "sins" or demaning repentence.

So where is all the outcry over the massive and ongoing killing of "Christians" by Muslims in Africa??? Hypocrites all of you who want to pin this on Christians but don't express the same outrage over the killing of Christians. (and for all of you who want to respond with the tired old and historically factless charge that more people have been killed under the name of Christianity than any other religion... save it. Anyone with a an ounce of honesty and a elementary grasp of history knows that is BS.)

Either express outrage over all acts of violence, including this one, or shut up and get a life other than posting here your liberal tripe and hatred of Christianity or any other group that doesn't fall in line with your high-stepping march of liberalism.

Wow NotKidding, you really have your anti-Christian propaganda down packed. I'm not going to waste my time debating scriptures with you only because it is clear that regardless of how much I can point out the fallacies in your argument, you're determined to label those who disagree with you as bigots. And frankly, I'm not as emotionally involved as you are on this issue. I only get involved because of all the hateful comments that often drag us Christians into these discussion. Have you noticed that it's not us who go around looking for these news stories and start spewing nonsense about how much we hate gay people. The truth is that I'm not the one that draws some sort of self righteousness by accusing other people of being evil. All that comes from your side of the argument.

As for your statement earlier of how you were able to come to this place of enlightenment on your own with out the aid of the Bible, that's great. However the rest of us simpletons are not as intellectually superior as yourself and do need something or Someone outside of ourselves to change our lives. I speak as someone who formerly was involved in a life of crime. If someone like you would've approached me with this talk of " morals come from reality...common sense, direct experience and consistently provable results" I would've laughed at you, taken your money and gone on my way. Fortunately there is a God in heaven who changes lives and thanks to the Bible that you have such disdain for I was able to change my life for the better. This experience has been my consistent provable result.

So where is all the outcry over the massive and ongoing killing of "Christians" by Muslims in Africa???

Write your letter to Fox News. Let us know their response to your request.

Either express outrage over all acts of violence, including this one, or shut up and get a life other than posting here your liberal tripe and hatred of Christianity or any other group that doesn't fall in line with your high-stepping march of liberalism.

The Log Cabin Republicans have expressed outrage over this. Labeling this as a liberal issue is not only unfounded but biased.

The devil's biggest trick is convincing you that hate is the Word of God.

Have another glass of Hater-Aid from your Rush Limbaugh sippy cup.

Ahhhhh...... I noted on this seeded report that... "Police said Thursday his sexual orientation had nothing to do with the killing and that one ROBBER had been arrested"..... yet the immediate tsunami of attacks against Christians and 'homophobes'.... predictably, no huge surprise here....

Notkidding,

I wasn't trying to justify the persecution of homosexuals, in fact just the opposite. Perhaps the rage evident in your posts has caused your brain to become muddled.

Anyway, Lot didn't rape his daughters, they got him drunk and raped him. And he wasn't blessed, the sons born to Lot's daughters become the ancestors of the Moabites and the Ammonites, two nations that were bitter enemies of Abraham's descendants.

David absolutely repented. Read 2 Samuel 12:1-14. He repents and loses his son.

If you expect God to use perfect people in his plan, he wouldn't have anyone at all.

Also, my sin is my fault. Not anybody else's, I don't know where you got that thought. Maybe I was born sinful, maybe not, but the point is I did sin, and still do sin. Jesus told the crowd who wanted to stone the adulterous woman that whoever is without sin cast the first stone. They had the sense to know they weren't perfect. Do you?

It also said someone went into his house, hit him twice in the head and then left. So...what did they "rob"?

Notkidding,

I wasn't trying to justify the persecution of homosexuals, in fact just the opposite.

While still claiming homosexuality is a "sin" which is what "justifies" all the persecution. You can't have it both ways.

Perhaps the rage evident in your posts has caused your brain to become muddled.

Rage? Interesting that you would read rage into what I wrote. I didn't even reach a mild irritation. Guess I'm just too snarky.

Anyway, Lot didn't rape his daughters, they got him drunk and raped him.

Oh please. I'm well aware that's the "story" but let's try not to be so ridiculously gullible. When a man is too drunk to recognize his own children, he is not capable of impregnating anyone. Also, since he was alone on the mountain with no one else there except his daughters, who did he think they were? And he "fell" for the same ruse two nights in a row? And why on earth would his daughters think his "line would die out" if they didn't have his children? There were other women in the world, they had just fled from Zoar (plenty of women there) and after awhile they all left the mountain and rejoined civilization. Finally...men raping their daughters is not exactly unheard of...particularly in misogynistic societies....but how often do you hear of teenage virgins "raping" their fathers? About as often as you hear about roving bands of homosexual rapists is my guess.

Like everything else in the bible you must believe a dozen ridiculous things before you can accept the story as being true, when it is obviously nothing more than a convoluted attempt to explain how he got his own daughters pregnant and was still considered "righteous". Blame the victims. Nothing new.

And he wasn't blessed, the sons born to Lot's daughters become the ancestors of the Moabites and the Ammonites, two nations that were bitter enemies of Abraham's descendants.

The daughters were punished for the father's "sin" by having children that founded races that (surprise) were persecuted. Even Peter said that Lot himself was a "righteous" man.

David absolutely repented. Read 2 Samuel 12:1-

That was just letting him know god was "displeased" with him for sleeping with another man's wife, then arranging to have him killed so he could marry her. Not a word of repentence.

14. He repents and loses his son.

Uh...no. His son kills his brother for raping his sister. Where is the repentence for killing Uriah and marrying Bathsheba?

If you expect God to use perfect people in his plan, he wouldn't have anyone at all.

As an atheist, I have no expectations of your imaginary friends. But if, here in the real world, you want to preach morality from a book of immoral behavior, you shouldn't be surprised if someone points it out.

Also, my sin is my fault. Not anybody else's, I don't know where you got that thought. Maybe I was born sinful, maybe not, but the point is I did sin, and still do sin. Jesus told the crowd who wanted to stone the adulterous woman that whoever is without sin cast the first stone. They had the sense to know they weren't perfect. Do you?

Oh...I'm not perfect...but I'm not a "sinner"either. I'm a pretty good person, I don't lie, cheat or steal. I work hard for my family, I give to others, I can always be relied on to help when it's needed. Most of my friends and family are the same...decent people that wouldn't let you down. Not one of them are "sinners"either. That's just a term used by religious people to give them permission to treat other people badly...after all, as long as they admit to being "sinners" too, then it's all right.

Except it isn't.

NotKidding, I kneel before thee. I mean...thanks for using your brain. It's nice to hear someone spell out so simply, the fact that religion does not own morality. The wife and I live in FL if that helps explain anything.

Wow NotKidding, you really have your anti-Christian propaganda down packed.

Speaking of "propaganda"...why is that you have beliefs that you feel totally justified in expressing whenever and wherever you want...but different opinions or beliefs are propaganda? And the term is "down pat" not packed.

I'm not going to waste my time debating scriptures with you only because it is clear that regardless of how much I can point out the fallacies in your argument, you're determined to label those who disagree with you as bigots.

Oh...is that why. I see. Well...if you buy into the whole "this group of people I've never met and never will meet are abominations/sinners/less-moral-than-me" just because you read it in a book...that makes you a bigot. Intolerance of others based on some group criteria is the definition of bigotry. I can't help that.

And frankly, I'm not as emotionally involved as you are on this issue. I only get involved because of all the hateful comments that often drag us Christians into these discussion. Have you noticed that it's not us who go around looking for these news stories and start spewing nonsense about how much we hate gay people.

No, actually I haven't noticed that. I've noticed the opposite.

I first got involved in gay rights issues about 12 years ago when prop 22 went on the ballet in California. I thought it was a no-brainer until I saw what all the "good christians" were saying about it. I've never seen such raw hatred and bile in my life. Seriously. I was stunned. I had no idea that there were people who felt that way. I've never had any issues with gays or with religious people in my life...live and let live. I just couldn't believe all the religious people who felt justified in angrily denying others the same basic rights the rest of enjoy, just because we won the orientation lottery and were born straight. So yeah...I guess it did make me "emotionally involved". I happen to believe pretty strongly in human rights...for all humans.

The truth is that I'm not the one that draws some sort of self righteousness by accusing other people of being evil. All that comes from your side of the argument.

Seriously. If religions weren't out preaching that homosexuality is an abomination, then there would be nothing to fight against. You can't just target 10% of the population for centuries of persecution and then cry "victim" when people object to that. Of course it's evil!

As for your statement earlier of how you were able to come to this place of enlightenment on your own with out the aid of the Bible, that's great.

I never said any such thing. I said I get my morals from life experience, my own sense of self worth and common sense, not the bible.

However the rest of us simpletons are not as intellectually superior as yourself and do need something or Someone outside of ourselves to change our lives.

Again...I was responding to a rudely worded question on where I got my moral guidance, not on how to change my life. I rather like my life just the way it is, and have no desire to change it.

I speak as someone who formerly was involved in a life of crime. If someone like you would've approached me with this talk of " morals come from reality...common sense, direct experience and consistently provable results" I would've laughed at you, taken your money and gone on my way.

Are you trying to tell me that you committed crimes and you didn't know that what you were doing was wrong? You had no idea? No guilt? No attempt to hide your behaviors? No shame? No self-loathing? You didn't have the common sense to know that the reason stealing was against the law was because it was harmful? You were unable to see the reality that taking things you didn't own was detrimental to them and to you? You had no direct experience of what it felt like to be a dishonest theif or to have things taken from you? You didn't think it was consistent....were some people happy that you stole from them?

You didn't need a book to tell you right from wrong. You knew that all along, you just did it anyway. That's not a lack of morals, that's a lack of behaving morally. It was your choice to make and (apparently) you reached a point where you made different choices. I'll bet you feel differently about yourself too. I don't need to steal from someone to know that I'd hate myself for it. I don't behave morally because I'm afraid of getting caught or going to jail, any more than I do it because I'm afraid of going to hell, I do it because I have no desire to behave any other way. If you need the threat of hell or the promise of heaven to make you behave morally, then it amounts to the same thing in the end....you behave the way you do in order to get the result that's important to you. Just as I do.

Fortunately there is a God in heaven who changes lives and thanks to the Bible that you have such disdain for I was able to change my life for the better. This experience has been my consistent provable result.

It is amazing to me when someone says they needed something outside of themselves to behave morally. No matter what inspires you to make changes, it's still you making the changes. You are the one who decides not to steal. You are the one who decides when to make that decision, and why. If you want to credit your inspiration to a book, fine. No harm in that.

The harm, and the ensuing disdain, comes when you try to use your faith in that book to harm other people. Spreading the lie that one group of society is "less moral" than everyone else is harmful. It leads to persecution and to violence. As the article seeded here demonstrates.

After what happened to David Kato, I must encourage everyone on here who has a heart to sign this petition.

Ever wanted a chance to have a direct hand in saving an innocent person's life from being extinguished by an angry mob who want to kill her just for being gay? Here's your chance. We didn't get this opportunity with Matthew Shepherd, Michael Sandy Harvey Milk, or even David Kato. Let's not waste the opportunity this go-round.

http://www.allout.org/brenda/getequal

Done L.J.

Amazing that they are even contemplating deporting her.

NotKidding,

Thank you. And, yes, it is.

NotKidding

Excuse me for not being an English major but here in the hood we use the term "down packed". Anyways, back to something more substantive;

I accused you of using propaganda because you have obviously dissected the Bible and distorted its content to fit your own preconceived notions. For me to express an established set of principles that have guided societies through out history is not an example of creating propaganda.

Contrary to your misconception I do live in the real world and have gay friends and family. I treat them with the same amount of respect I show everyone else. I simply believe they are living in sin just like anyone else is. The fact that I draw this conclusion based on my faith in a Book that I believe to be divinely inspired doesn't make me anymore bigoted than you drawing your criteria of Christian bigotry based off your own opinions. And yes they are your own opinions. Christians have been preaching the same message for years here in America and yet there is no evidence of the wide spread persecution of gays like you have in other parts of the world. Sure you can point to isolated examples like Matthew Shepard where the killer's motives are highly questionable. There is no concrete evidence that labeling something as sinful automatically leads one to kill the sinner. If that were the case than there would be a wide spread persecution of adulterrers, drunkards, liars, etc since all these fall under the same category of sin.

Now as to your point which was put forward through a litany of questions. The answer is yes, I did know this behavior was wrong at one point because of our God given conscience. However something happens to that conscience after you have engaged in something repeatedly as I did. At one point I felt a certain conviction when ever I robbed a man of his money but after some time it became just another day at work. As for the fear of being caught, well let's just say that our prisons are filled with repeat offenders that have learned to cope with this consequence. Part of my reasoning for the way I lived my life was to blame my circumstances(i.e. poverty, minority, disadvantaged, etc.). When I became a Christian I came to the understanding that the problem was not external but internal. I had to deal with the issue of sin in my own life. I came to realize that I did not have to accept my present circumstance as inevitable. All this happened upon my decision to put my faith in God, not some mental exercise of mind over matter. The closer I've gotten to God the less inclined I am toward violence. Which makes these accusations so ludicrous. Those who commit these crimes are no closer to God than you are. Even if they claim to believe in God they live as if they didn't.

wow sandman how very magnanimous of you "the old hate the sin love the sinner BULLSH!T"

nice living in you lala land I assume-- i answered you question in post 1.46 and I guess you just do your "normal" thing and ignore everything that is proven factual but if it goes against your views then you just simply ignore it and hope it goes away

then you state and absolute untruth you just posted

Christians have been preaching the same message for years here in America and yet there is no evidence of the wide spread persecution of gays like you have in other parts of the world. Sure you can point to isolated examples like Matthew Shepard where the killer's motives are highly questionable. There is no concrete evidence that labeling something as sinful automatically leads one to kill the sinner. If that were the case than there would be a wide spread persecution of adulterrers, drunkards, liars, etc since all these fall under the same category of sin.

first off -- there are many real christians who have not spewed the same vile based in ignorance, bigotry and hate -- hell one christian group cannot tolerant another christian group -- that is factual go look at the names the EVILgelicals call the catholics and both calling the mormons a cult -- all hypocrites

As to your assertion that there is no proof that hate speech is responsible for gay bashings and killings in this country is totally absurd then there is the whole reality of the teenage suicides -- yes indeed hate speech is definitely helping the violence there are direct ties -- go chat with any reputable psychologist

I accused you of using propaganda because you have obviously dissected the Bible and distorted its content to fit your own preconceived notions.

You are accusing me of taking things "out of context" but you have failed to back that up with any examples. (your one attempt, at David's "repentance" was a swing and a miss)

For me to express an established set of principles that have guided societies through out history is not an example of creating propaganda.

I didn't accuse you of propaganda. I simply pointed out that views you disagree with is all that is required for you to start flinging the accusation around.

Contrary to your misconception I do live in the real world and have gay friends and family. I treat them with the same amount of respect I show everyone else.

Where did I express the conception that you didn't?

I simply believe they are living in sin just like anyone else is.

Really? Just like anyone else? I don't think so. All of humanity hasn't been persecuted for the last 2000 years the way gays have been. Saying "I can condemn others as much as I want as long as I say something trite and meaningless like 'we are all sinners'"'isn't fooling anyone.

If something causes harm to others, then it should be prohibited. If you want to also call it a sin, go ahead. But when something causes no harm....it's just different from the majority...it should not be prohibited, and calling it a "sin" any only leads to discrimination and persecution.

The fact that I draw this conclusion based on my faith in a Book that I believe to be divinely inspired doesn't make me anymore bigoted than you drawing your criteria of Christian bigotry based off your own opinions.

Your belief that all homosexuals are sinners, because they are homosexuals...is bigotry. It's intolerance of a group of people based on some arbitrary group-defining criteria. You cannot make that any less true than it is...it's just a fact.

My intolerance to bigotry is against beliefs, not people. Any creed that advances bigotry is damaging to society and harmful to the individuals within it. I have not called for intolerance towards any single person...ever. I have said that some religious beliefs (and I don't include only christian beliefs here) are destructive, unnecessary, ridiculous and are responsible for the persecution of innocent people.

And yes they are your own opinions. Christians have been preaching the same message for years here in America and yet there is no evidence of the wide spread persecution of gays like you have in other parts of the world.

What? Are you serious?

2008: 1,617 ate crime offenses based on sexual-orientation bias were reported by law enforcement agencies. Of these offenses:

• 58.6 percent were classified as anti-male homosexual bias.
• 25.7 percent were reported as anti-homosexual bias.
• 12.0 percent were prompted by an anti-female homosexual bias.
• 2.0 percent were the result of an anti-heterosexual bias.
• 1.7 percent were classified as anti-bisexual bias.

2007: 1,460 hate crime offenses based on sexual-orientation bias were reported by law enforcement agencies. Of these offenses:

• 59.2 percent were classified as anti-male homosexual bias.
• 24.8 percent were reported as anti-homosexual bias.
• 12.6 percent were prompted by an anti-female homosexual bias.
• 1.8 percent were the result of an anti-heterosexual bias.
• 1.6 percent were classified as anti-bisexual bias.

2006: 1,415 hate crime offenses based on sexual-orientation bias were reported by law enforcement agencies. Of these offenses:

• 62.3 percent were classified as anti-male homosexual biased.
• 20.7 percent were classified as anti-homosexual biased.
• 13.6 percent were classified as anti-female homosexual biased.
• 2.0 percent were classified as anti-heterosexual biased.
• 1.5 percent were classified as anti-bisexual biased.

2005: 1,171 hate crime offenses based on sexual-orientation bias were reported by law enforcement agencies. Of these offenses:

• 60.9 percent were anti-male homosexual.
• 19.5 percent were anti-homosexual.
• 15.4 percent were anti-female homosexual.
• 2.0 percent were anti-heterosexual.
• 2.3 percent were anti-bisexual.

As you can see....hate crimes against gays are going UP every year. In order for a crime to be classified as a hate crime, it has to meet strict guidelines, not the least of which is it has to be a VIOLENT CRIME and they have to be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that it was inspired SOLELY because of the ORIENTATION of the victim. These statistics are only the tip of the iceberg of the number of hate-inspired crimes against gays in this country...most are never elevated to hate crime status because the standard is so strict.

How many millions have the churches spent so far on trying to deny equal rights to gays? How many gay teens have killed themselves because of the unending torment they receive from their "good christian" peers? How many gays were tossed out of the military after serving honorably for years? How many were fired, evicted, bullied, beaten or killed in the last few decades?

What on earth do you think persecution IS?

Sure you can point to isolated examples like Matthew Shepard where the killer's motives are highly questionable.

Questionable how? They killed him because he was gay. That was proven. Do you have some secret information that the courts didn't have?

There is no concrete evidence that labeling something as sinful automatically leads one to kill the sinner. If that were the case than there would be a wide spread persecution of adulterrers, drunkards, liars, etc since all these fall under the same category of sin.

What rot! Where are the millions being spent by the churches on trying to deny equal rights to all those "sinners"? If you want anyone to believe that you think of them all the same...then you have to treat them all the same.

Part of my reasoning for the way I lived my life was to blame my circumstances(i.e. poverty, minority, disadvantaged, etc.).

Blame your circumstances for the choices you made then...blame the bible for the choices you make now. Some people just aren't good at taking personal responsibility for their actions, I guess.

When I became a Christian I came to the understanding that the problem was not external but internal. I had to deal with the issue of sin in my own life. I came to realize that I did not have to accept my present circumstance as inevitable. All this happened upon my decision to put my faith in God, not some mental exercise of mind over matter.

You realized that you were doing something wrong....and that you could change. How is that mind over matter? It seems to me it's a lot simpler than adding in all the extra unrelated baggage of magical beings and so on...but it appears you are the kind of person who needs something outside of himself to blame or credit for what you choose to do.

The closer I've gotten to God the less inclined I am toward violence. Which makes these accusations so ludicrous. Those who commit these crimes are no closer to God than you are. Even if they claim to believe in God they live as if they didn't.

You are completely missing the point of what I'm saying. As long as people like you can sit in their ivory towers and arbitrarily condemn others who have never harmed you or anyone else, then that condemnation will lead to discrimination, persecution, abuse and violence. It always has. You may think your hands are clean because you aren't pulling the trigger, but you are part of the creed that loaded the gun and provided the target.

Think of it this way....if the German people prior to WWII had condemned Hitler rather than supported him, he never would have come to power. Those people may have never held a gun or seen a camp...but they made those things possible by their support or their silence.

As long as you support a belief system that arbitrarily singles out a group for persecution, you are not innocent.

"the old hate the sin love the sinner BULLSH!T"

Prove it's bull@!$%#, go ahead and try and use facts instead of more of your assumptive speculatory BULL@!$%#, which is the only thing that's bull@!$%# around here, that being the inability of the left to acknowledge and accept the opinions and beliefs of others.

HYPOCRITES, you preach tolerance and yet are THE MOST INTOLERANT on the planet. You preach equality and yet you turn a deaf ear and a blind eye to Christians, looking down your noses at them like you're somehow above or better than them because they have the integrity to stand up for what they believe in the face of overwhelming hatred and adversity from a bunch of hypocrites who do not in any way practice what they preach.

Disgusting..................just disgusting.

If you "loved" the sinner, why would you be here defending religion instead of condemning the bigotry and violence being preached in Uganda in the name of religion? Clearly, you love your beliefs more than any "sinners".

Being opposed to the religious beliefs that result in persecution of innocent people, is not the same thing as being intolerant of your right to your religious beliefs. Most people here, regardless of their personal views on relgion, would fight to protect your right to believe what you like. That doesn't mean that as a society we have to accept beliefs that harm others.

If your religion is based entirely on hating "the sin" of homosexuality, then you might have a problem.

If you "loved" the sinner, why would you be here defending religion instead of condemning the bigotry and violence being preached in Uganda in the name of religion? Clearly, you love your beliefs more than any "sinners".

You honestly don't get it do you, you simply don't have a clue?

Would it even do any good to explain this to you because honestly from the outset it appears you're not interested in anything more than picking a fight and this one you'll lose big time soooooooooo

Actually, Seeker, NotKidding asked a perfectly valid question. Are you going to answer it or not? If not, then it's obvious you have something to hide.

You really are NotKidding about your anti-Christian dogma are you? Do you not have a job? I get some time occasionally to look at these comments but dude, you're like Johnny on the spot with these rebuttals. I saw one of your comments with a posted time of 1:59 am. Do you ever get any sleep? Don't tell me you're one of those weird people that sit in their basement behind a computer all day, typing away with this crazy look in their eyes. Seriously, you ought to consider getting some rest. But then again you're like this super hero that goes around defending the poor and down troden and super heroes never get any rest until all remnants of evil are wiped off the face of the earth. But enough of my sarcasm, let's get back to the subject at hand.

The truth is that this conversation has become quite redundant. You'll continue accusing me of bigotry and tying these murders to my beliefs no matter what I say. You point to a bunch of statistics that make no connection between these crimes and my believing homosexuality to be a sin. In fact, according to these statistics, these hate crimes are increasing at a time when much of Christianity has become more liberal on these issues. You would think they would decrease. Since we are in the mood of making baseless connections, would you attribute the cause of millions of people that were slaughtered under communism to their godless atheistic belief system? You probably won't since that is likely what you would like to see happen here in America to people like us.

As to your claim that I've yet to rebut your out-of-context analysis of the Bible, for the record I wasn't the one who responded to the David issue. I choose not to engage in debated scriptures with people who are Biblicaly illiterate. The reason is that Jesus tells us not to throw our pearls among swine because they will only trample them.

The responses only take a few minutes, how odd that you would think I'm incapable of having a life as well. Strange too that you are so intent on trying to insult me. It won't work. I'd need to value your opinion before a poor one would wound me, and you aren't saying much of value.

You'll continue accusing me of bigotry and tying these murders to my beliefs no matter what I say.

Because you have stated beliefs that fit the definition of bigotry, and obviously bigotry is the precursor to persecution. You are free to point out what other influences might be responsible, or to refute my opinions with other information that I may not have considered, but instead all you can do is attempt to insult me, and say that your religious beliefs are good for you, implying that as long as they serve you, any 'collateral damage' is unimportant to you.

You point to a bunch of statistics that make no connection between these crimes and my believing homosexuality to be a sin.

True, but that wasn't the point I was making with those statistics. That was in response to you saying that gays do not suffer any persecution in this country. You may make your own conclusions as to why anyone would ever want to harm a gay person....just for being gay, but the only time I hear anyone speak against gays, it's because they are following the dictates of some religion.

In fact, according to these statistics, these hate crimes are increasing at a time when much of Christianity has become more liberal on these issues.

It's true that not all religious people feel it's necessary to adopt the bigoted views of the past in order to have a current relationship with their god...but they are still in the minority in this country. As more people realize that equality is not something to be determined by personal religious beliefs, those who are more passionately opposed to it, tend to escalate their views into more extreme protest. Phelps comes to mind.

Since we are in the mood of making baseless connections, would you attribute the cause of millions of people that were slaughtered under communism to their godless atheistic belief system? You probably won't since that is likely what you would like to see happen here in America to people like us.

I would attribute it to tyrannical dictators. Banning religion doesn't make people atheists you know. Atheism is a belief that there are no gods...not a law to stop worshipping them. Nor do I have any wish to impose my views on anyone. I don't care what other people believe, as long as it isn't hurting anyone. If religions would simply treat the "sin" of homosexuality exactly as they treat all other "sins" (in other words...to ignore it) then there would be no issue. But religions never learn. They did this with witches and with women and with blacks and now gays. They always want to have some segment of society that they can keep under their heel, but sooner or later the rest of society rises up and stops them...just as they will this time.

I choose not to engage in debated scriptures with people who are Biblicaly illiterate. The reason is that Jesus tells us not to throw our pearls among swine because they will only trample them.

If you say so. I am inclined to think that I may know rather more about your bible than you feel comfortable with. I stand by what I have said...the book is rife with immorality and has no valid claim to being a moral guide. I am happy to provide as many examples of that as needed, but. I can certainly understand if you'd rather not be in a position of having to defend the indefensible. I've no doubt I'd stomp all over your "pearls" in short order.

Oink

notkidding

it is a waste of time trying to have an intelligent discussion with sandman and truthseeker (giggle, giggle) really should get a more accurate screen name

See these 2 are so closed minded to any actually fact that goes against their belief they would never admit to any actual facts and point out something from a book written by many men, translated by many more and interpreted by thousands more -- that has no backing in science or reality -- but they will pick and choose the parts that fit their narrow view

I am close to just putting both on the ignore list since neither has posted anything from the real world or pertinent in any way -- the only thing their posts have shown is how easily the EVILgelical leaders have it -- they spew vile hate, bigotry and intolerance, they call for the death of homosexuals and the sheep in their religion just march off the cliff of reality and claim there is no connection -- very sad

WWJD ?????????????????????????????????????????/

rbach

I realize that any attempt to alter someone's beliefs is futile, and that was never my intention.

I just want to point out to the masses of "innoncent" religious people...the ones who've never pulled a trigger or swung a club...that as long as they preach that homosexuality is an "abomination" or a "sin" and as long as they support or remain silent when their churches work to prevent equality...that there is blood on their hands as well.

You cannot wash your guilt away with meaningless platitudes like "hate the sin, love the sinner" or "we are all sinners" when the reality is that only gays are systematically targeted with millions upon millions of church dollars for discriminatory laws and constitutional amendments against them.

Believe what you want...but if you are not speaking out against organized religion's attempts to continue to legally marginalize a group of people then you are doing your part to provide the motive and the victim to every single person who ever commited a hate crime. You are guilty of complicity in every one.

LJ. Rhodes - I signed the letter you shared. Thanks for bringing it to light.

The back and forth in this comment was a very interesting read. Perhaps more interesting than the original article.

rbach

I am close to just putting both on the ignore list since neither has posted anything from the real world or pertinent in any way

Have you noticed that I haven’t responded to your rants? That’s because I decided to ignore them a long time ago. At least NotKidding has some substance to his argument, all be it a little watery. You however just sound whiny. The best you can do is post a link to some left wing website that offers no kind of objective reporting. And what’s up with your “giggle, giggle” What are you, some teen age school girl?

NotKidding

I’m going to cut this short for the sake of time. Apparently we’re not getting any traction in either direction. I will finish by addressing the comment that you made regarding the Bible’s validity as a moral guide.

“the book is rife with immorality and has no valid claim to being a moral guide.”

Your opinion on this issue remains just that, your opinion. History proves you wrong since many civilized societies have validated as their moral guide. This includes the founding fathers of this great nation. Here are a couple of quotes.

Thomas Jefferson: “Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”

Benjamin Franklin: “As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see”

I quote these two because they are often touted as the least religious. Now I said I would debate the scriptures with you but lest you’re left with the impression that you may know more about my bible than I feel comfortable with here is my rebuttal.

1. Abraham: The law was not revealed until Moses therefore Abraham was not under the Mosaic Law. You should be able to see the sense in that since incest would have been necessary for the purpose populating the earth. Even evolution teaches the theory of common descent.
2. Lot: Lot’s incestuous relationship with his daughters was never justified in the Bible. Peter referred the righteousness of Lot only in terms of his being vexed with the immorality of Sodom which took place before this incident happened. Lot has generally been viewed in a negative light in Christianity because of his compromises that eventually led him to this place.
3. David: Here is an easy one. David did repent and penned his confession in the book of Psalms Chapter 51.

I have to admit that the Bible is filled quirky stories and some of them are down right scandalous. If I had written my own bible I would’ve left anything out that shed a negative light on those whom I wanted to hold up as a beacon of light. You see, that is why I trust God’s word as reliable. Most ancient civilization omitted their failures and military defeats. However the Bible is filled example of people who failed miserably. The reason is that from cover to cover it’s a story of redemption. It demonstrates the fact that no matter how far gone one may be there is always the hope of being restored. The story Paul the apostle comes to mind. Here is a guy who once persecuted the Church yet experienced a powerful transformation. He went on to spread the Gospel and eventually the persecutor became the persecuted and died as a martyr in a Roman prison. My point is that no matter how much you oppose Christianity and dismiss the Bible as a myth, there is still hope for you. Roman 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” While you’re trampling His pearls under foot Jesus Christ still died for you.

I will leave you that and give you the last word. I won’t respond simply because I don’t to carry this conversation on for eternity.

Evolution doesn't talk about common descent....if you track your MDNA Or your YDNA back far enough you can come to a dead end in africa but that being said this is simply a common ancestor. To think that our entire species is the result of two original homo sapiens is ludicrous. Especially considering that our species interbred with neanderthals and homo erectuses (the second one is up for debate but we were living at the same time as they were).

Your opinion on this issue remains just that, your opinion. History proves you wrong since many civilized societies have validated as their moral guide.

The "morals" that religion claims as their own are nothing more than basic human decency and common sense that have been developed through millenia of human society, with the addition of ridiculous and arbitrary "morals" that have nothing to do with reality and are NOT adopted by educated, intelligent rational societies. The prohibitions against sex, homosexuality, abortion, stem cell research, birth control, sex educaiton, divorce etc. Those aren't "morals" they are simply efforts to control the populace by declaring their most powerful instincts "sins". Religions are obsessed with other people's sex lives...not moral at all.

For the last 2000 years the church has fought and hindered every meaningful scientific advancement and area of human development. They strive to keep the populations ignorant and superstitious to keep their coffers full.

This includes the founding fathers of this great nation. Here are a couple of quotes.

Note that both quotes are about the teachings of jesus, not the bible nor the christian religion. Huge difference. I agree with the teachings of jesus as far as his advice went, but the bible and the religion have precious little to do with what he taught.

Don't forget Jefferson was so opposed to the christian bible that he wrote his own and although Franklin (raised by Puritans) was more religious, his strongest beliefs were that " the most acceptable service of God was the doing good to man". (Not sure how labeling a percentage of society as moral outcasts, and facilitating their persecution is "doing good".)

1.Abraham: The law was not revealed until Moses therefore Abraham was not under the Mosaic Law. You should be able to see the sense in that since incest would have been necessary for the purpose populating the earth.

So "sins" aren't always "sins"? Only when it's convenient? Your god can let them go when he feels like it, then punish people for all of eternity when he doesn't? He was chatting with Adam and Eve in the garden...he might have mentioned it then. Or he could have made more than one couple. But to come out thousands of years later and say...oh by the way....this is a sin and you'll burn if you do it...after setting things up so it would be impossible NOT to do it....you don't find that...um...unbelivable? At least....for an omniscient and omnipotent deity?

Even evolution teaches the theory of common descent.

No it doesn't. Brilliant has already explained that (brilliantly) above.

2.Lot: Lot's incestuous relationship with his daughters was never justified in the Bible.

No..it was blamed on his victims.

Peter referred the righteousness of Lot only in terms of his being vexed with the immorality of Sodom which took place before this incident happened.

But Peter's remarks were long after the incidents...long after he knew that Lot had raped his own children...and still he called him "righteous" just because he hated the imaginary roving bands of homosexual rapists.

Lot has generally been viewed in a negative light in Christianity because of his compromises that eventually led him to this place.

"His compromise"??? He RAPED his own daughters. Then he lied about it and accused them of raping him! Can you GET more immoral than that?? God never rebuked him. He never repented. He was never punished. The daughters were.

3.David: Here is an easy one. David did repent and penned his confession in the book of Psalms Chapter 51.

True enough I suppose, although that looks suspiciously like an afterthought doesn't it? There's not a word of his repentence in Samuel where the entire story is told. He continued to live as he always had for many years afterwards (although his children had some problems).

Most ancient civilization omitted their failures and military defeats. However the Bible is filled example of people who failed miserably.

The bible isn't just "normal" people with their "normal" deficiencies...it's filled with the WORST of immorality. Raping your own children, murdering your brother, raping your sister, murdering your children, on and on and on. The vast majority of people are NOT like that. The bible is like the Jerry Springer Show of the ancient world.

The reason is that from cover to cover it's a story of redemption. It demonstrates the fact that no matter how far gone one may be there is always the hope of being restored.

Yet small children are ripped apart by bears on god's orders...for teasing a bald man. The first born of every family in Egypt is murdered because god hardened the Pharoh's heart so he could not obey. The entire planet full of people, birds and beast aside from a select few are drowned in a flood. Where is the redemption there? Where is the hope?

While you're trampling His pearls under foot Jesus Christ still died for you.

For me to what? To be saved? Your god creates eternal suffering then makes some arbitrary rules to avoid it...and then murders his own son so that you can avoid what he created to begin with? How does any of that make any sense?

I don't need saving, thanks. I'm perfectly fine. If you want to play the imaginary "damnation/salvation" game, that's up to you. I'd rather live the life that I know exists the best way I know how rather than treat my fellow men like crap in hope of impressing some invisible bully who might reward me with a make believe after-life.

I will leave you that and give you the last word. I won't respond simply because I don't to carry this conversation on for eternity.

Alright then. My last word(s) are these: As long as any religion teaches that some people are "less (moral, saved, special, worthy) than others, they teach discrimination. Discrimination has always led to persecution. Churches know this. Their teachings are intentional. They use you, and people like you, to carry out their dirty work. Some...just by encouraging and preserving the lies that lead to discrimination...and others to carry out the inevitable hate crimes that follow. As long as you believe the victims are less (anything) then you share in the guilt.

Give 'em hell, N.K.!! The excellence of your argument is an inspiration to behold.

SANDMAN-2531700

rbach

I'm sitting here trying to decide whether your rant is worthy of a response. What the heck, I'll humor you. I always get a kick out of people who say "this is fact" like somehow their statement makes it so. Here is a fact, you still haven't produced any actual evidence of statements made at the conference in question that advocated for this violence. You are merely making a baseless conjecture. Therefore, I made a similar conjecture based on your own twisted logic that labeling something as evil causes people to commit murder.

And just for clarification, I don't hate gay people, and regardless of how sarcastic I may sound in my comments I really don't hate you either. I simply believe that everyone of us will be held accountable for our sins based on the word of God.
1Corinthians 6:
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived.
Neither fornicators,
nor idolaters,
nor adulterers,
nor homosexuals,
nor sodomites,
nor thieves,
nor covetous,
nor drunkards,
nor revilers,
nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
And such were some of you.
But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

If calling homosexuality a sin is the equivalent of spewing hatred than that means I must hate myself since I once fell under several of these sins mentioned. Contrary to what you may believe I don't advocate that we impose laws based upon what I consider to be sinful. Past governments have failed miserably at enforcing morality upon the populace. In the end it's a personal decision that everyone has to make on their own.

#1.40 - Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:13 PM EST

Well, that means that basically nobody will ever go to the so-called kingdom of god. Is that what this history book is trying to tell us?

Yep. That was widely reported. This is ridiculous. I cannot believe that there are Americans who go to foreign countries for the purpose of promoting hatred... and these people call themselves Christians.

Here it comes. It's the tbaggers, it's the Christians, it's the US evangelicals, it's palin's fault, that's the way it is with you libs. It's always someone else's fault. Maybe somebody just didn't like this fellow. Are you the same people that claimed the fellow that shot the congresswoman last week was a tbagger? Or a Palin supporter? Or was he a christian? What other lies were you pushing last week? This fellow might have been killed by his jealous boyfriend. Of course if that's the case then the jealous boyfriend must be a republican christian tbagging palin supporter.

Well, while this may be a bit of a stretch, it does suggest a preemptive approach thoughtful people might consider.

Could we make a diplomatic request that this news report be forwarded to Sarah Palin? She can then decide whether this behavior is instructive about her own poorly considered, reactionary outbursts when she is at odds with more progressive thinkers.

Of course, if she chooses, she can also use it to build her own repertoire of ways to retaliate if she were to win some higher office. Kinda like her own Tea Bag Mein Kampf.

Ben-1671313

Is that all you have to say about this?! I won't even get into arguing the point, but a government advocates and encourages murdering citizens because of their sexual orientation and you're upset because somebody suggests-correctly, btw-that right-wing 'Christians' played a part and THAT's what bugs you? Really?!

I would think that the person or persons that did the killing are the ones responsible.

Do you think they're the only one? Muslim countries do this all the time. Is that news? It's news here because supposedly the Rolling Stone christians wrote an article that proposed the idea. Did the christians actually kill this guy? In muslim countries the get a crowd together and stone you if you are gay. They don't even hide it. Does this make the 6 oclock news. Uh, no. They're muslim. That's what they do. But you people seem to believe Palin, or the t party had something to do with this. So yes, that's what bugs me.

I think all the anti-gay Republicans here in the US would be happier living in Uganda. Why don't they move.

So...because it 'happens all the time', it's okay? I think that the Ugandan government and it's culture are ultimately responsible, but it is a fact that American Christian evangelicals have gone to Uganda with a homophobic message. Earlier this month, 3 of them went to the country and, as reported in the NY Times:

"For three days, according to participants and audio recordings, thousands of Ugandans, including police officers, teachers and national politicians, listened raptly to the Americans, who were presented as experts on homosexuality. The visitors discussed how to make gay people straight, how gay men often sodomized teenage boys and how “the gay movement is an evil institution” whose goal is “to defeat the marriage-based society and replace it with a culture of sexual promiscuity.”

So these 'Christians' aren't exactly teaching tolerance, are they?

Where exactly did I say it's ok? So 3 people went over to Uganda and how does that involve Palin or the Tparty? Or the republicans? Were they in fact, democrats? How do you people know what their party affiliation might be? Are you implying that there are no christians who are democrats? When did Sarah Palin go to Uganda?

"For three days, according to participants and audio recordings, thousands of Ugandans, including police officers, teachers and national politicians, listened raptly to the Americans, who were presented as experts on homosexuality. The visitors discussed how to make gay people straight, how gay men often sodomized teenage boys and how “the gay movement is an evil institution” whose goal is “to defeat the marriage-based society and replace it with a culture of sexual promiscuity.”

So this guy's dead. Does anyone know who killed him? Uh, no.

"We cannot confirm that Kato was killed because he was gay or whether it was just an ordinary crime," police spokeswoman Judith Nabakooba said. Investigations were under way and no arrests had yet been made, she said.

If it ends up his boyfriend did it, is it still Sarah Palin's fault?

I think Ben is in love with Sarah.....

Actually, I think she is quite attractive, until she starts talking.

You could always put something in her mouth to keep her from talking!!

Keep it clean Dave.... they will collapse you or sick Tyler on you.

Ben

That's "sic", but as you've already said that it's OK 'cause others do it[#3.7] and then denied it[#3.10], I don't expect much conscious literary output from you.

As for the Americans who helped support this bill, I feel that any church or pastor[NOT individual members] that directly uses its funds for political purposes should be taxed to h3ll and back.

Yes, hate speech that turns into action is punishable by law in our country. To have evangelicals going to other countries to spread their hate when they've had limited success in our country should also be illegal.

Ben, when you have people whose agenda is socialized hatred, they're going to be condemned for that agenda. Either admit and embrace your hatred, or stfu. You use 'libs' as an epithet. See, the difference between us and people of your ilk is that we don't embrace the crazies, we push them out to the fringes of our group. WE stand up to hatred, we see the hate speech for what it is, a systematic effort to eradicate anybody you disagree with or dislike. So regardless of which group it comes from, yes, we're going to condemn it. If you were honest, something which I suspect you're incapable of because then you'd have to face the ugliness inside you, you'd admit that you want to see them all dead.

Ben and others that don't pay any attention to the news....this story has been around for at least a year or longer...and if you'd been paying attention to the news you would have known that the facts around this story originate from the evangelical movement in Uganda... and that they learned about these religious teachings from missionaries predominantly from the U.S. This has NOTHING to do with finger-pointing...it's pure fact that the evangelical movement is behind this...besides, any gay-hating has historically always come from so-called religious people. Not a big leap to go there anyway!

I love the "it is the individual who did the killing's fault". So I guess Hitler is innocent since he himself did not actualy kill anyone? If you incite or inflame you bear some responsibility.

Mike,

Again, apparently you can't read. I didn't say it was ok. I was pointing out that when Muslims do it, for some reason, it's apparently not a big deal. That's different than saying it's ok or that I approve. I don't expect you to understand this because obviously this tactic has worked for you before. But nice try anyway.

To have evangelicals going to other countries to spread their hate when they've had limited success in our country should also be illegal.

What happened to freedom of speech? Now you want our government to tell us what we can say even in other countries? Are you also going to start telling people where they can and can't go? I suspect that you really only want this done to those you disagree with. When the government starts telling you and your friends where you can go and what you can talk about, then it won't be so stylish.

Either admit and embrace your hatred, or stfu

I hate lies and liars. That is my hatred. And telling others to shut the f up will get Tyler's attention. So watch it. This next line is rich.

we don't embrace the crazies, we push them out to the fringes of our group. WE stand up to hatred,we see the hate speech for what it is, a systematic effort to eradicate anybody you disagree with or dislike

Wow, you sound like some kind of superhero. And what is your group? Can you give me an example of when you or your group actually pushed out one of your crazies?

And now we're comparing evangelicals to Hitler? After all, Hitler didn't like gays, and he was evangelical, Methodist.. right?

One thing none of you have addressed is the Ugandans didn't have to listen to these people. Maybe they're stupid, but they are adults.

Howdy, Bob5ford,

I have heard this argument many times, that only the actual perpetrator is responsible for a particular act. This is a fallacy. I find it is most commonly used as an excuse by folks who won't acknowledge their own, or others culpability, The concept of "responsibility" has both an individual application and a more general application. Responsibility is a concept that is not limited to the "either / or" framework. I'm sure you familiar with criminal trials where they not only prosecute the actual perpetrator, but others who were not the individual perpetrator. Responsibility can come in degrees, for instance, I may not pull the trigger that kills some one, but I can be culpable in the commission of the act if I have encouraged you to pull the trigger, or have in any way knowingly offered material assistance. Depending on the particulars, my encouraging you to pull the trigger may not be criminally prosecutable, but may be open to a civil lawsuit because my encouragement made me partially responsibility.

The simple fact that only one particular individual committed the act, in no way relieves others of responsibility who encouraged, or offered assistance in the commission of the act.

If you are referring to incidents where there was a group present and others participated verbally in the attack, if that's the case I can see that. But if HMM is correct and these people were just in country a year ago, how can you legally hold them responsible for something that just happened recently? I don't pretend to know what their law is, but that's a stretch.

I just think freedom of speech is much more important than offending any group, even the politically correct ones. Many people here may not like it but it's no fallacy.

Howdy, Ben,

The original comment from Bob5ford that I was referring to did not specify "legal responsibility" and I was discussing the general meaning of the concept of "responsibility". You are correct that anyone culpable by encouragement or indirect assistance, from this country are probably not "legally responsible". However their personal "moral and ethical" responsibility is none the less real, in my opinion. The Nuremberg war crime trials after WWII differentiated between "legal" and "moral" responsibility because many of the crimes were "legal under German law at the time, in fact many German judges were convicted for war crimes by the tribunal.

Just because you did not break the law does not mean you did not do something wrong. Many actions may be immoral and or unethical, but not be illegal.

Personally, I think encouraging the execution of anyone for being homosexual is, at the least, an extremely irresponsible use of the right to free speech and far more than offensive.

It does strike me as odd that christians would be encouraging this. I know a few and I don't think that's typical or universal. This situation is a far cry from WWII, but it's also odd that the Ugandans would do it solely because some Americans said it was ok. I had no idea we were held in such high esteem. This still could end up being a regular ole murder, which is still illegal everywhere.

Here it comes. It's the tbaggers, it's the Christians, it's the US evangelicals, it's palin's fault, that's the way it is with you libs. It's always someone else's fault.

It is the "fault" of whoever is spreading hate and lies and encouraging violence and persecution. If that happens to be christians, evangelicals, palin and TP'ers...well...

Maybe somebody just didn't like this fellow. Are you the same people that claimed the fellow that shot the congresswoman last week was a tbagger? Or a Palin supporter? Or was he a christian?

No rational person claimed any of those things. What was said was the the current political climate of anger, lies and hate probably contributed to an unstable man's belief that violence was an appropriate form of political protest. He was clearly unable to form any coherent political or religious ideology.

What other lies were you pushing last week? This fellow might have been killed by his jealous boyfriend. Of course if that's the case then the jealous boyfriend must be a republican christian tbagging palin supporter.

Was this man shown on the front page of a newspaper with the words "hang them" next to him? Was that because he was gay? Those things are not in dispute, and those things are more than enough to warrant backlash and outrage at the cowardly religious views that were behind it.

It is the "fault" of whoever is spreading hate and lies and encouraging violence and persecution. If that happens to be christians, evangelicals, palin and TP'ers...well...

Well what? It wasn't Palin or TPers, all christians, or all evangelicals, was it? No, it may have been a couple of individuals who reportedly may have visited Uganda two years ago. There are a few people here who would like some political mileage here, but it's absurd. If we listen to idiots, Rush had something to do with it too.

No rational person claimed any of those things

This much is certain. I'm a pretty rational fellow, and from a law enforcement background. People murder each other all the time for many different reasons. I have seen more than a few. But this fellow was gay, so it's palin's fault. Yeah, that makes sense.

Police said Thursday his sexual orientation had nothing to do with the killing and that one "robber" had been arrested.

Evidently the police in Uganda aren't convinced Palin did it either.

What was said was the the current political climate of anger, lies and hate probably contributed to an unstable man's belief that violence was an appropriate form of political protest.

So the left's answer to what they percieve as lies and hate, is to vent lies and hate. I guess that explains why there are so many lies and so much hate. Good point.

those things are more than enough to warrant backlash and outrage at the cowardly religious views that were behind it.

Where? In Uganda? Because it sounds like there are those that would like a backlash here in the U.S. against people who had nothing to do with this. What this basically boils down to is a gay fellow was murdered on the other side of the planet. He was just one fellow. How many other people were murdered, for religious reasons that same day? How many of those were Catholic or Baptist? Where is the public concern and outcry for the others who are not gay?

ben

it was christians the EVILgelical brand and every single christian that does nothing to show their leaders as vile accomplices to murder are just as guilty as the ones spewing the hate, bigotry and intolerance

Rbach, that's a stretch. How do you feel about muslims?

Well what? It wasn't Palin or TPers, all christians, or all evangelicals, was it? No, it may have been a couple of individuals who reportedly may have visited Uganda two years ago. There are a few people here who would like some political mileage here, but it's absurd. If we listen to idiots, Rush had something to do with it too.

Your list of obvious "non-perpetrators" is just a smoke screen. The reality is that all three abrahamic religions preach against homosexuality and those beliefs are responsible for the persecution of gays. Period.

This much is certain. I'm a pretty rational fellow, and from a law enforcement background. People murder each other all the time for many different reasons. I have seen more than a few. But this fellow was gay, so it's palin's fault. Yeah, that makes sense.

I certainly didn't say that...but Palin is as much a part of the problem as anyone else who espouses the view that homosexuals are less deserving of equality than the rest of us.

Police said Thursday his sexual orientation had nothing to do with the killing and that one "robber" had been arrested.

Odd that the "robber" went in, killed him, then left without taking anything. Still, it doesn't matter what they are saying now...no one is denying his picture was on the front page of a newspaper publically calling for his death...just because he was gay.

Evidently the police in Uganda aren't convinced Palin did it either.

Why is it that you keep bringing Palin up? I haven't seen anyone accuse her of this. Do you think by making ridiculous claims you can make the issue less real, less important? Why would you want to do that? You give the impression that you support the killing of gays and wish to trivialize this story.

What was said was the the current political climate of anger, lies and hate probably contributed to an unstable man's belief that violence was an appropriate form of political protest.

So the left's answer to what they percieve as lies and hate, is to vent lies and hate. I guess that explains why there are so many lies and so much hate. Good point.

What lies and hate are you referring to? Religious beliefs that gays are "abominations" have led to 2000 years of persecution. That's not a lie, but it most certainly is hate. Pointing that out...is not lying and it's not hateful.

those things are more than enough to warrant backlash and outrage at the cowardly religious views that were behind it.

Where? In Uganda?

In the WORLD.

Because it sounds like there are those that would like a backlash here in the U.S. against people who had nothing to do with this.

Every person who promotes the discrimination against gays by trying to withhold equality from them, by promoting the lie that they are "abominations" or by supporting or remaining silent while others do so...has something to do with this. You don't get to be part of the problem and claim innocence.

What this basically boils down to is a gay fellow was murdered on the other side of the planet. He was just one fellow. How many other people were murdered, for religious reasons that same day? How many of those were Catholic or Baptist? Where is the public concern and outcry for the others who are not gay?

Either you didn't read the story, haven't read the postings here, or you believe gays should be killed. It's about the wholesale persecution of gays in Uganda and elsewhere...not just one man. It's about American bigots bringing their hatred to other countries and encouraging them to arrest, abuse and kill innocent people.
Your cheap and disgusting attempt to minimalize this indicates your true feelings. Feelings that are at the heart of all the persecution.

This was in the thread up the line, and that's why I brought Governor Palin. I suppose you didn't read this part.

Could we make a diplomatic request that this news report be forwarded to Sarah Palin? She can then decide whether this behavior is instructive about her own poorly considered, reactionary outbursts when she is at odds with more progressive thinkers.

I was making fun of the fellow that wrote this because as you pointed out, it is ridiculous. I'm not trying to trivialize anyone's death. But there needs to be some perspective. This was only one man. While Christians do teach that homosexuality is a sin, I do not see 99% of them marching around telling anyone to slaughter them. The Baptists over there in Kansas are a little off, but I don't see them hanging anyone either. There is another very large rapidly expanding religion that calls for the killing of gays, and they practice what they preach. They are open for business, and you people are ignoring them wholesale, apparently becasue it's politically incorrect to challenge them. These people, to me are a much greater threat to everyone's freedom.

A lot of you have expressed your displeasure with my narrative. Good. My intention was to get some of you to think. For the record, I have friends and family who are gay. I would not like to see them killed either. I do not hate gay people, and I'm not a member of any church. I am a big fan of the first and second amendments to our Constitution.

I would have responded to each of your comments but I'm late for dinner. I'll get back to you tommorow if you would like, and address each of your points if this response was not satisfactory.

BEN

no stretch -- but rather it is fact

EVILgelical leaders from the US have been going to Uganda spewing their hatred and are responsible for this and many more murders and blood shed perpetrated on homosexuals -- same as it was during the spanish inquisition but now they prefer to incite the violence and allow others to do the actual dirty deed

As to your totally irrelevant question on how I feel about muslims -- let me be perfectly clear for you -- I feel the exact same toward any and all religions that do the same thing as these EVILgelical christians do

rbach,

Yeah, sorry but that's what most would call a stretch. They were supposedly in Uganda in 2009 "spewing their hatred" as you put it. It took a year and a half for their speech to supposedly cause someone to act on it. Just what is the statute of limitations on outing a gay man? 2 years? 10 years? This just looks too much like some people here would like to smear some christians, again.

You even go so far as to compare them to the spanish inquisition, which is an even bigger stretch. Are you suggesting that something should be done to these EVILgelical christians? Perhaps some sort of violence? And how is my question irrelevant? Muslims kill many more than this "EVILgelical Christian" robber, and yet we see no protest, and very little in the press. Why is that?

The kill the gays bill was introduced into the house more than a year ago and its been working its way through their government ever since. Its not like this bill is a new thing. There is a direct correlation between these americans going to Uganda and the anti gay fallout that resulted.

ben

really a year and a half for the first murder to happen after the EVILgelicals and others from "the family" started to spew their hatred in Uganda and you claim "most would call that a stretch" -- I say only the deniers would call it a stretch

It is almost funny you trying to make light of the vile these christians are spewing and try to twist it into them being the victims -- if these EVILgelicals weren't so dangerous to mankind it just might be laughable

Yes I think something should be done to these EVILgelicals as well as to all christians that support them -- they should all be held accountable for their horrors they cause on people

Only the christian like thing to do is all the twisting and squirming you try -- this article is not about the killing of christians by muslims -- this thread is about a homosexual murdered because of the hateful spewings of christians

So that isjust you trying to deflect the real topic which is the vile spewings of these EVILgelicals and other christians caused this murder -- stop denying reality and deal with it without trying to make light of it as your type usually do

You really have an ax to grind with the EVILgelicals, don't you. What did they do to you? Denier? Doesn't that have something to do with the weather?

How do you propose to "hold them accountable"? Do you want to round them up? What then? Put their picture in the paper and encourage the gay community to hang them? Let's hear it. You've been flapping your gums, what do you want to do to them? Are you just after the ones that went over to Uganda, or all of them? Becauses they're all responsible, according to you and your friends.

By the way, I'm not talking about muslims killing Christians. I was talking about muslims killing gays.

stop denying reality and deal with it without trying to make light of it as your type usually do

Your reality is apparently very different than mine.

Ben,

I'm not trying to trivialize anyone's death. But there needs to be some perspective. This was only one man.

One man's death has been publicized, yes. But that isn't the entire story. American evangelicals have been lobbying Ugandan leaders to pass laws to persecute all gays in Uganda. Lists of gay men have been published in the paper with "hang them" next to them. Clearly this is not just about "one man" at all, but a deliberate campaign by some here to export a virulent homophobia with the intent to cause the suffering and death of innocent people elsewhere.

While Christians do teach that homosexuality is a sin, I do not see 99% of them marching around telling anyone to slaughter them. The Baptists over there in Kansas are a little off, but I don't see them hanging anyone either.

Can you see that by singling out one segment of the population and calling them "abominations" that you encourage people to view them differently? Can you see that by insisting that they are willfully immoral you encourage people to see them as dangerous, evil, immoral, depraved, etc.? Can you see that leads to wholesale discrimination, in thought, if not in deed? Can you see that if the majority of the population thinks of them as "less" than everyone else that treating them differently is a natural conclusion? Can you see that treating them differently (not better) is persecution? And can you see that when it gets to the point of printing their pictures in a paper calling for their deaths that it is a result of insisting that they are abominations and willfully immoral?

By teaching that they are different, religions are knowingly creating the circumstances for them to be hated and persecuted. Why else would anyone harm someone just for being gay? Gays cause no harm, there is no reason for society to come to the conclusion they are "immoral" without religions inventing and spreading that lie.

There is another very large rapidly expanding religion that calls for the killing of gays, and they practice what they preach. They are open for business, and you people are ignoring them wholesale, apparently becasue it's politically incorrect to challenge them. These people, to me are a much greater threat to everyone's freedom.

I have no PC scruples. Islam is as bad or worse since they are about 600 years behind christianity and therefore as brutal and abusive as it was 600 years ago. I haven't singled out one religion since any religion that preaches discrimination is guilty. Chritianity has just been preaching it for 600 years longer than islam.

A lot of you have expressed your displeasure with my narrative. Good. My intention was to get some of you to think.

I'm always open to that...I hope that you are open to it as well.

For the record, I have friends and family who are gay. I would not like to see them killed either. I do not hate gay people, and I'm not a member of any church. I am a big fan of the first and second amendments to our Constitution.

Yet...you believe homosexuality is a "sin". That belief (which has no "real world" foundation) is what is behind the discrimination and the discrimination is what is behind the persecution. You do not need to "hate" gay people, simply believe that they don't deserve to be treated the same....that's enough to have you sit silently or look the other way when they are persecuted. Just as people did with Jews (and gays) in Europe not so long ago.

When people are actively trying to imprison, kill, persecute and abuse others who have not harmed anyone or done anything to deserve it, then decent people object and protest and work to end the injustice.

Is it "hate" to remain silent? To see a culture of persecution where all gays must live in fear for their safety and their lives and say "only one man" has been killed? To ignore the part your own beliefs play in this because you can point to others you think are worse? To want to protect your beliefs more than you want to protect the innocent people who are suffering and dying because of them?

You may not think of that as hate...but I don't see how hate could be any worse.

wow ben

No ax to grind on anyone -- am very tired of the EVILgelicals claiming to be the moral ones and then spewing utter bigotry , intolerance and hate from their multi million dollar tax payer funded churches

As to what they did to me -- nothing -- it is what they are doing to humanity that is the problem

All who come to the defense of the christian leaders who spew hatred, bigotry and intolerance have blood on their hands just as those spewing the vile -- get it -- or is that too much for you to get?

you certainly seem to have a penchant for trying to incite violence or at least seem to have a need to push that crap onto others

As to what I want done is for people to hold them accountable -- if they are spewing hatred and someone is brutally murdered or violence is done -- then they need to be arrested and tried for the crime of murder and punished accordingly -- the least should happen is they should be stripped of any leadership role in any church

As stated previously -- you should stop the crap with pulling in nonsense in your defense of the christians responsible for this murder in Uganda -- if you want to discuss muslims killing gays or christians or any other of your smoke blowing topics -- go start a thread for that discussion and stop trying to derail this topic

You seem to support the EVILgelicals who have caused this atmosphere of hatred and violence in Uganda -- why is that? Is it because you agree with these vile folks?

You think that's sacry, just inagine if it was Islamists that had gone!

new englanda: Who asked the Africans to attend in the first place or to be so heavily influenced by them? Are you implying that Africans can't think for themselves or legislate on their own behalf without being provoked to extremism, violence, and criminal acts by foreigners from the US? Pretty outrageous of you and of them as well.

The "oh, let's blame US Christians" statements tacked on to the end of this article are ridiculous red herrings. If you think homophobia did not exisit in Africa before some recent conference, you clearly don't have a grasp of the deplorable human conditions in Uganda and the deep homosexual stigma throughout the African continent. This is a horrific murder and the people scrambling to stand on the body of this poor dead man to further their own hateful agenda against Christianity look petty and hollow.

Ron-395173

Unfortunately what New Englanda said may be true. Currently the penalty for gay sex in Uganda is death and the penalty for shielding a gay person from discovery is 7 years in prison. These laws didn't exist until the evangelicals went to Uganda with their agenda. Even if the evangelicals created the situation unwittingly the fact remains that their propaganda stirred the pot of hatred in Uganda.

Thank Richard Roberts from Oral Roberts for this....

besides the obvious, what chaps my butt is that all US tax payers support these hate filled christian groups. they dont pay their share of taxes and we get to have to make up the difference. some of these christaliban groups even directly get our tax dollars, leaving them more of their tax exempt us dollars to take out of country to spread their hate. wouldnt jesus be proud.

aunty

Kansas is now governed by one of those "Family" evangelical cultist (now former) US Senators. That too, is scary. That, and the fact that we now have a rightist extremist Secretary of State.

Waterdog - you obviously don't know how the evangelicals work. They go in with a mission to "help" whether it's food, education, housing, etc. and then while they are there "helping" them they "share" their beliefs. The people think they are good because they're doing good things for them and because they are dependent on their help, they go along with them and eventually get sucked right in.

@ new englanda - this is intriguing. Let me explain:

This is emblematic of the unCHristlike and unbiblical attitude of many evangelical Christians in the U.S. today. It really is scary.

I have heard the commentary that Rick Warren and the others went to Africa to speak out against homosexuality. And I've also heard the commentary from Rick Warren et al that their words were misquoted and taken out of context. I think if we are all honest we can certainly understand that there are people who have an agenda, and all is filtered through that agenda, and the result is that they hear what they want to hear. People do it with God all the time, attaching Him to their own little pursuits when He has nothing to do with it. Gays do it, Christians do it, even Christians who believe there is nothing sinful about homosexuality do it...this run everything through their agenda. Jesus said, "My sheep know My voice." Well, if you aren't hearing Jesus's voice, then either He isn't talking or you aren't listening. Guess which is most probably true?

Anyway, 1 Corinthians 5:9-13, Paul is telling the Corinthians that God will judge those outside of the local church. We who are members of the local church are to judge ourselves, and "remove the wicked man from among you." So, this persecution of gays in Africa either does not come from religious opposition, or is misguided and misunderstanding religious application. There are a great many sins of which man may be convicted. "He has shown you, O man, what is good; do justice (do the right thing always for everyone), love mercy (compassion even when it's not deserved, and give of your abilities and possessions to help those in need), and walk humbly with your God (do not embrace the sins of this world, and live life according to His sovereignty in your life)." Micah 6:8 Nothing in the New Testament tells us that we should persecute sinners, or call for the death of gays. And as surely as there are those who reject wickedness and refuse to judge those outside of the church, there are those who embrace wickedness and accept the same within the church. God knows those that are His.

I am sorry for this man's death, and for the sorrow among his family and friends. I hope they catch who did this, and try him for murder, as well as any accomplices.

Howdy, again, Bob5ford,

Are you suggesting that somehow being murdered by a christian is somehow better than being murdered by a muslim? The victim is just as murdered. I don't see how their self proclaimed religion has anything to do with it. According to both of these religions, the victim was just as much a child of god.

Phillbert,

According to both of these religions, the victim was just as much a child of god.

Huh?

@Levi777-meaning that regardless of his "sins" he was still a child of god,only for god to judge....that is,of course, if ou believe in either of those religions

Howdy, Levi777,

Huh? Right back at ya.

The bible is a big book, with many stories. The new testament seems to encourage a larger and more compassionate and tolerant view than does the old testament. You gotta figure it out for yourself what the point of all those stories is. Gook luck.

Just had to add that the qur'an is also a big book added to the Hebrew "old testament" It also is filled with stories that see us all as god's children as well as the us vs. them. Again these books are filled with all kinds of stories and you gotta figure out what it means for your life.

@newenglanda - Couldn't have said it any better.

it's sad what has happened once again in Uganda, while people like Scott Lively and Joel Olsteen are probably sendin' pics back and forth about who got the biggest hardon over it all

The Ugandan editor of Rolling Stone said: "We said they should be hanged, not stoned or attacked."

What!? Is that the most astounding statement ever? Or just another claim of innocence from a "news" source?

Sheesh!!

desktop, c'mon O'Reilly never called for Tiller's death, nor did FOX news. O'Reilly called for Gov Sebelius to look into the matter and get him to stop late term abortions. If you go down that road then Olberman and MSNBC are just as guilty as anyone for calling for death. Not in so many words but hinting about. As far as I recall This guy never listened to O'Reilly. Again just another lunatic.

Wait a second! I understand some Christians who believe this is sinful, but to promote laws that call for his death. I know Jesus would never condone Christians acting in this fashion. He asked for two things of Christians:

1) Love God with all your mind, heart & soul

2) Love others

Some of these so-called Christians need to take a step back and think about what they are doing! And I'll be glad the day Jesus arrives to make these good "Christian" people stop their promotion of hate.

:-)

Being gay is a sin in your little book. Eating shellfish is an abomination in your little book. In MY little book, being ignorant is dangerous, and people who think like you do need to be enlightened. Think like a modern, evolved PERSON, not like a two thousand year-old goat herder who doesn't understand the world and wants to control and remove anything that isn't familiar or acceptable. Word of God? No, I suspect if "god," as I understand god, had had anything to do with actually writing the bible, there would have been a lot less persecution and hate.

Yes, being gay is a sin. No, eating shellfish is not an abomination. If you would read the Bible you would understand both of these facts. I love all people. I don't approve of what everybody does, just like you don't approve of everything I do. That doesn't make me a "hater". It makes me an individual. If God wanted robots, he could have created robots, but He didn't. He gave us free will and if we choose to use that free will in the wrong ways, then we have that choice. God showed us the "best" way and if you choose to ignore it, then you get to pay the price. Everything is about choices. Don't call me ignorant or a hater because of the choices I make and I will treat you the same way.

I am a Christian, and I am proud to call Jesus my Lord and Saviour. I pray that you all will just read the Bible with no pre-conceived notions of what others have told you it says and you will come to the same conclusions that I did.

Casey:

Indeed; this is something that as a Christian, I feel that many members of the faith have lost perspective in this. While the Word is rather explicit about homosexual behavior being contrary to His will and intentions for us, Jesus also teaches us that there is no difference in sin, and that we are all sinners:

You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to Judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin, but anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in tanger of the fire of hell.
Matthew 5:21-22 (NIV)

So why quote Matthew? Well, this is again because from Jesus' position *all of us* cannot and do not even come close to God's perfect standard. Therefore, while I personally may not find homosexual behavior neither appealing nor morally acceptable in my life - spiritually speaking (which is what we Christians talk so much about) I am no better a human being.

The apostle Paul speaks of this as well to Christians - warning them that it is not our place as Christians, jew or Gentile - to condemn others, be they Christian or otherwise:

You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?
Romans 2:1-3 (NIV)

When Paul says, "the same things," he is not necessarily saying to Christians that it's okay to condemn those who engage in homosexual acts because they don't happen to do "that particular sin" - he's warning us that to God sin is sin, and as sinners - it neither appropriate nor is it our place to condemn those... for we are guilty of a myriad of other sins that were God to subject us to the same condemnation we seem so eager to lavish on others - our eternal standing would look a lot less promising.

Jesus lays this out rather explicitly in The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant (Matthew 18:21-35)

This is from the Bible - one of my conclusions is it's FULL of inconsistencies and half-truths. Another is it's rubbish. Draw your own conclusions:

The people were not impressed with the feeding of the multitude. Mk.6:52.
The people were very impressed with the feeding of the multitude. Jn.6:14.

After the feeding of the multitude, Jesus went to Gennesaret. Mk.6:53.
After the feeding of the multitude, Jesus went to Capernaum. Jn.6:14-17.

A demon cries out that Jesus is the Holy One of God. Mk.1:23,24.
Everyone who confesses that Jesus came in the flesh is of God. 1 Jn.4:2.

Jesus cursed the fig tree so that it would not bear fruit. Mt.21:19; Mk.11:14.
It wasn't time for the fig tree to bear fruit. Mk.11:13.
The fig tree withers immediately, and the disciples are amazed. Mt.21:19,20.
The disciples first notice the withered tree the next day. Mk.11:20,21.

Jesus is the mediator of the "Father". 1 Tim.2:5; 1 Jn.2:1.
Jesus sits on "his" right hand. Mk. 16:19.
Jesus and the "Father" are one in the same. Jn.10:30.

There is one "God". 1 Tim.2:5; Jms.2:19.
There are three. 1 Jn.5:7.

Jesus said to honor your father and mother. Mt.15:4; Mt.19:19; Mk.7:10; Mk.10:19; Lk.18:20.
Jesus said that he came to set people against their parents. Mt.10:35-37; Lk.12:51-53; Lk.14:26.
Jesus said to call no man father. Mt.23:9.

Jesus/God said, "You fool…". Lk.12:20; Mt.23:17.
Paul calls people fools. 1 Cor.15:36.
Call someone a fool and you go to hell. Mt.5:22.

Anger by itself is a sin. Mt.5:22.
But not necessarily. Eph.4:26.

Ask and it shall be given. Seek and you will find. Knock and it will be opened to you. Mt.7:7,8; Lk.11:9,10.
Ask and you shall be refused. Seek and you won't find. Knock and you will be refused entrance. Lk.13:24-27.

Do not judge. Mt.7:1,2.
Unless it is necessary, of course. 1 Jn.4:1-3.

Jesus is thankful that some things are hidden. Mt.11:25; Mk.4:11,12.
Jesus said that all things should be made known. Mk.4:22.

Jesus said that no sign would be given. Mk.8:12.
Jesus said that no sign would be given except for that of Jonas. Mt.12:39; Lk.11:29.
Jesus showed many signs. Jn.20:30; Acts 2:22.

Jesus stated that the law was until heaven and earth ended. Mt. 5:17-19.
Jesus stated that the law was only until the time of John. Lk.16:16.

The "Sermon on the Mount" took place on the mountain. Mt.5:1.
The "Sermon on the Mount" took place on a plain. Lu.6:17.

Randy from Maine.

@Randy207

A lot of the things you mention that are core are not necessary inconsistencies, but could be considered paradoxes - while I don't have time to examine all of them - understand that in translations - subtle nuances of words get lost - mainly because English does not have a plural form of "you."

The other question I would ask you is this: Since the gospels are written by many different people over many years - what you say if all account were precisely identical?

My guess is that you would say what any attorney says in a court of law when witnesses give identical testimony: They they colluded with each other.

But as you said - draw your own conclusions. I would encourage you to, since you are reading the Bible, to take a look at or ask some professors for some context regarding the original Greek and Hebrew texts.

Branden.R.T

thank you for your post. I am an atheist and don't believe in the concept of sin-at least the way Christians do - but I think you're much closer to being a Christian the way Jesus intended than many other so-called 'Christians'. Certainly the ones who post here.

Branden - ask about context? I'm SURE (insert sarcasm font here) that's what the Christian Ayatollahs do before they go on their murderous rampages against those the Bible tells them to hate.

Randy from Maine.

I keep forgetting that the only person at fault is the person who killed him. You are a simpleton!!! This "newspaper" calls for the death of homosexuals, the antigay rhetoric is constant in the public sector and condoned by the government. So when someone actually goes out and kills it is a isolated event with nothing to do with anything (read with sarcastic tone). Stick you head deeper into the ground. You seem to be happy that way. And by the way, do not think that this kind of behavior can only happen in Africa. It is happening here and it will get worse until people like you wake up and understand that there are consequences to inflammatory speech.

So, let's explore further this concept of sin. So, if being gay is a sin, and people can "understand" the persecution of people for being gay, do we turn a blind eye to the seven cardinal sins? So, should fat people be denied the right to visit their loved ones in hospital? Should lazy people not be allowed to marry because it weakens marriage for the non-sinners? Should prideful people be rounded up in Uganda and murdered? These were also in the bible, and in fact, more clearly defined as an outright sin than homosexuality. Also, not honoring your father or mother - should estranged children be jailed? Tell me, what does Jesus want, or is he really only concerned with making gay people suffer at YOUR HANDS?!!!!

Just because YOU believe it's a sin doesn't mean that everyone else thinks its a sin. All we "sinful non-believers" ask is that you keep your relgion off us! Stop preaching hate for others (and that is EXACTLY what you are doing). You are welcomed to believe whatever you want, why can't the rest of us!

Mark, my point is that evangelicals use a set of rules to govern OTHERS' behavior. I couldn't care less what Jesus said. I grew up Catholic, so I know the words, I just don't allow those who speak them to position themselves as arbiters of right or morally superior, because many of them prove time and again that the only thing they have going for them morally is that they claim to be Christian.

There is a well-developed social code that evolves with a society that dictates right and wrong. There is jail, divorce, social isolation etc. that tells you when you've broken the rules, and these rules get learned through a set of very real trial and error by every child as they develop. Right and wrong is not owned by religion. People need to be judged by what they do, not by what they are. Used to be black people were not human, and that was supported by religious zealots using the bible. So if a gay person is a sinner, is it a sin to love someone? To have sex? To live together? To raise a family? To eat dinner? To visit your partner in a hospital? This is what being gay is, and so much more. Some of the most loving, compassionate, enlightened people I know are as gay as the day is long, and it kills me that they have to put up with this crap.

“Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord.” (Ephesians 5:22)

“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel.” (1 Peter 2:18)

“Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us – he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.” (Psalm 137:9)

“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

Deuteronomy 23:1
No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord. (Note: Sorry, John Bobbitt)

Deuteronomy 25:11-12
If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.

Ezekiel 23:19-20
Yet she increased her prostitution, remembering the days of her youth when she engaged in prostitution in the land of Egypt. She lusted after their genitals – as large as those of donkeys, and their seminal emission was as strong as that of stallions.

If God wanted robots, he could have created robots, but He didn't. He gave us free will and if we choose to use that free will in the wrong ways, then we have that choice. God showed us the "best" way and if you choose to ignore it, then you get to pay the price.

What would be "using that free will in the wrong way" ? It really doesn't specify what would be a "wrong" thing to do.

If God showed us the "best" way ? What would that be ? I think I know the basics of that. But again, no specifics. What is "best" ?

So not knowing the specifics, I do my best living my life how I think is the right way. So, I am an individual and not a "robot".

But what if I followed a plan ? Like other people follow a plan ? "God's Plan" ?

I'm not an individual anymore - I'm a "robot".

@Randy:

Branden - ask about context?

I'm sorry you feel the need to get slightly nasty over this; I was merely suggesting other possible avenues of inquiry since you seem interested in examining the Word. This was something I did as a strong Agnostic, as religion, comparative theology, metaphysics and hermeneutics/exegesis have been hobbies of mine since I was young.

However, I think we're likely at an impasse - you seem far more interested in being pernicious and vindictive than having an open discussion. This is of course your choice.

I'm SURE (insert sarcasm font here) that's what the Christian Ayatollahs do before they go on their murderous rampages against those the Bible tells them to hate.

Fallacy of Over-Generalization and a Non-Sequitur. Encouraging one to study does not either condemn nor exonerate the actions of others who claim to profess the same beliefs - which while you have not explicitly spelled this out, this is your implication. Christ was quite explicit (as I've cited before) that the role of believers to love others as themselves.

@lauri-1879756:

Thank you for the kind words, but again I am no better or "more Christian" than anyone else who has chosen to accept Him as our personal Lord and Savior. There's a great line that describes Christians as, "one beggar telling another beggar where to find bread."

The point is that,

• yes; many of us Christians certainly engage in un-Christianlike behavior.

• yes; ALL Christians (myself included) are hypocrites in some form or another. We're human, and as such we cannot ever possibly hope to live up to His perfect standard! That's what makes the doctrine of Grace, his sacrifice all the more profound. That despite our hypocrisy, God still loves us.

• And yes; we Christians need to a *much* better job of serving Him by loving those we have traditionally condemned and simply spread the Good News, rather than cramming it down people's throat. It does not mean Christians should "shut up" about our faith - it just means that if someone doesn't want to hear about it, we should respect that and not make 'a big deal' about it - because as I mentioned before, it's not our place to force, condemn or judge.

One of the things I have to remind myself: If God gave us free-will because Love cannot occur under any other circumstance (God <-> person, or person <-> person), then I should remember to follow his example and honor the choices of others, just as He does regardless of their decision.

Anyway, that's just another of my .02

Brandon

Of course---"I'm the victim here". Randy's sarcasm made you pray to god that he would be unblinded to the intent of words, not the actual words themselves?

When a wife pays to have her husband killed, is she clear of any legal action? How is this different?

@Gfannin:

Just because YOU believe it's a sin doesn't mean that everyone else thinks its a sin.

You are absolutely correct on both counts; I do believe it's a sin, and there are plenty of other people who do not. From my personal perspective - that's completely okay.

Where this subject starts to get dicey is when you start to force capitulation of that moral value-set on either side: either by making the behavior illegal or by forcing those who believe it to be morally abhorrent to tacitly support it through money that is collected from the Government by force (i.e. taxes).

As a Christian - I should not use the Government to force my spiritual values on you. Are you willing to meet me half way and say that is it equally wrong for you to force me to pay for secular institutions that my faith says is against God's will?

All we "sinful non-believers" ask is that you keep your relgion off us! Stop preaching hate for others (and that is EXACTLY what you are doing).

As a "sinful believer" - I do apologize if your experience with other Christians has left a rather sour taste in your mouth - I remember feeling the exact same way as an strong agnostic.

Again - preaching hate is very contrary to Jesus' teaching, and I would argue that those that do so are either ignorant of His Word or simply not *truly* interested in Jesus' teachings. I would cite a few passages, but I do want to be sensitive and simply encourage you to read through the Word for yourself if you ever are curious and want to find out more.

You are welcomed to believe whatever you want, why can't the rest of us!

This is a valid point: and I think individuals can believe whatever they want provided they do not inflict physical violence for social, economic or personal gain - including Christians.

However, do keep in mind that just like I don't have the right to 'shut you up' because I don't like your beliefs of what you are saying, the reverse also applies - as no one has the right to "not be offended."

Here it is again. The people that incite and inflame have no responsibility. It is only the individuals fault. Everyone with a brain knows words matter.

Before you bring Jesus into this... remember it was Jesus who said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

m-612920 - you didn't read the article and it sounds like you haven't been paying attention to the news at all. This story has been in the news for more than a year. It is a fact that the Christian evangelicals in Uganda got together a list of people that were suspected of being gay and the list went out in the newspaper with a clear message to "kill" the gay people that were shown on the list. So, you may not think that Christians are capable of killing or inciting murder but that's exactly what happened. Not everyone that is a Christian behaves like a real Christian...it takes a real coward to hide behind their religion and use it as an excuse for their "sinful" acts...murder and inciting murder is a sin to you isn't it?

@JustGetItRight

Here it is again. The people that incite and inflame have no responsibility. It is only the individuals fault. Everyone with a brain knows words matter.

I think you're reading what you want to read rather than what I said. So let me ask it to you plainly:

• Am I as a Christian responsible for the actions of the Westboro Baptists because they spout what I feel is an inaccurate, hateful and untruthful 'version' of Christ's message?

• Are you legally responsible (and therefore subject to punishment) for calling someone 'stupid' should that person committed suicide, blaming their incentive on the fact that 'your words mattered' and hurt them?

I would encourage you to consider the ramification of what your advocating, because you might find yourself being held accountable for things *you* feel are within your rights to express.

@mike in portland

Of course---"I'm the victim here".

Simply pointing out what is very clearly more about being snarky and "scoring points" in the Internet debate is not taking a victim position. It is simply pointing out observational fact.

Randy's sarcasm made you pray to god that he would be unblinded to the intent of words, not the actual words themselves?

First: A tad presumptuous for you to assume what I did and did not pray for, don't you think?

Second: You apparently chose not to read the rest of my comment, as I very clearly addressed his 'ayatollah' remark by pointing out that logically it does not follow.

However, if you would like for me to quote from both the Bible and the Quran (both of which are on my physical person at this moment) that I would be happy to illustrate for you the fundamental differences between the messages and ideologies using the source material itself as to why using the term 'ayatollah' Christians is flat our fallacious.

When a wife pays to have her husband killed, is she clear of any legal action? How is this different?

If you have read my posts before (which I think very clearly you haven't, or simply have chosen to ignore them lest your chance to 'put me in my place' be stripped from you), I have very plainly said that Christians who encourage violence against others is contrary to Christ's message.

My main point (and why I chose to respond in the first place) was this:

• As human beings who sin, Christians are no better than those who engage in activities we would otherwise "look down upon." Therefore, as a Christian, I find those who would encourage or imply that violence against *any* individual is okay because of [insert belief or sin here] is morally abhorrent and contrary to His will.

• The condemnation of ALL Christians based on the actions of a few individuals that are (as previously cited) contrary to the message of Christ, and how are also often universally condemned by most, if not all other Christians, is also not intellectually honest nor founded in any sort of moral honesty.

However, as I mentioned before - I think we're at a philosophical impasse, which is fine. As a former strong agnostic, I understand and even welcome your opinions and insights - but just like I would not expect for you to do so, listening to your opinions does not mean I have to agree with them, nor keep my disagreement to myself in this discourse.

More importantly, as one human being to another, regardless of faith - what I do pray for is that I remind myself to treat others the way I want to be treated - and that means doing my very absolute best to approach your comments from a position of respect and willingness to listen.

@HMM-360962

This story has been in the news for more than a year. It is a fact that the Christian evangelicals in Uganda got together a list of people that were suspected of being gay and the list went out in the newspaper with a clear message to "kill" the gay people that were shown on the list.

Yes; and as a Christian I would say this is morally, ethically and spiritually wrong from a Christian standpoint.

So, you may not think that Christians are capable of killing or inciting murder but that's exactly what happened. Not everyone that is a Christian behaves like a real Christian...it takes a real coward to hide behind their religion and use it as an excuse for their "sinful" acts...murder and inciting murder is a sin to you isn't it?

You are absolutely correct. One of the burdens of Christians is that now that we understand what sin is, that we have an even greater obligation to act in a manner consistent with Jesus' teachings.

I will unequivocally state that these Ugandan Christians failed in that manner, and while I am not their judge (God is), they are actions and intentions that would certainly give me significant concern for when I have to give an accounting of my faith to Him.

The question is...why would anyone kill someone else...just for being gay?

Why would someone put a "hit list" of people on the front page of a newspaper and say "hang them"...just for being gay?

Why would people try to pass laws in this country and others to prevent some people from having equal rights....just for being gay?

Who started all this discrimination against gays? Who perpetuates it? Who is out there telling everyone that they are immoral abominations? Who has spent the last 2000 years instilling fear and hatred of them...just for being gay?

Find the answer to that...and you'll find who is responsible for ALL the hate crimes that have been perpetrated against others...just for being gay.

Hanging is more civilized than stoning or attacking.

Clearly.

RIGHT!!?? That's the part that amazes me. Basically, we didn't want the public to hurt these poor people, we wanted the government to hang them. Oh, that's much better, I see now. (Can you sense my sarcasm?)

If I comprehend the crazy ill-logic of this, apparently being "attacked or stoned" is a matter of public vigilanteeism so therefore it's bad, while being "hanged" under the auspices of the courts and government for being gay is therefore good. Sheesh.

Now then, if you're gay and you're hung... call me! (No, just kidding!) ;P

Now then, if you're gay and you're hung... call me!

I saw that in a public restroom once; did you write it?

"China, France, Russia" bad places.....You must be living in the early 20th century or something.

France? Really? Have you been there?

I am quite certain not all Ugandans are as backward and ignorant as you think. And a lot of the backward ignorance you are so offended by was taught to them by some of our country's wonderful elected representatives and Christian religious leaders.

Rather than condemn entire nations as being less enlightened then yourself (which is a rather offensive judgement, based on your comment), perhaps you should study history a bit and realize at certain times the grand old US was worse - committing genocide against entire native tribes, enslaving thousands, burning women as witches, etc. Thank god the enlightened people of those times didn't just jump ship and head to more tolerant grounds but fought for reform. That's what this poor murdered soul was attemting to do in his homeland. I would hope that if our government proposed hanging people for their sexual preferences here, you would stand up and fight for reform, too.

Why would the US consider Ugandan sovereignty of its laws to be any less sovereign than our own? What if Ugandan leaders called upon us to enforce their views of human sexuality here? What makes the difference to us,let nations of Islam to their beliefs,which they must feel are correct. Maybe this is another reason for their mistrust of everything US.

Stoops2Conquer - The backward, ignorant people of Uganda deserve the hell hole their country is and all who can see it for what it is should get out while the getting is good.

We seem to have a lot of backward, ignorant people here too.....like the Montana Republican party which wants to criminalize homosexuality. Same with the leadership of the bigoted group NOM.

Stoops2Conquer - wow...you are way off the track! Did anyone actually read the article or follow this in the news...for the last year or more???? IT IS A FACT THAT "THE LIST" REFERRED TO IN THIS ARTICLE IS A LIST THAT THE CHRISTIAN EVANGELICALS IN UGANDA PUT TOGETHER AND PUBLISHED WITH THE MESSAGE TO "KILL" ANYONE ON THE LIST FOR BEING A SUSPECTED GAY PERSON!! Does anyone ever read any more? Does anyone ever pay attention to the news? Before you go spouting off your ignorance...read a little...get the facts. I didn't make them up nor did anyone else. Those are the real facts behind this story...sorry you don't like it but we can't change the facts because it doesn't fit into your reality!

Hmmm, you believe everything you see on the news? You think that because you saw it on TV, it's fact? And anyone who doesn't believe the news is ignorant?

Pehaps you have not read the Bible very well then. Here is one of many scriptures that say homosexuality is wrong and that homosexuals will be put to death. How much clearer can it be? Deny it all they want; to God, homosexuality is "an abomination".

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."

Jesus in the new testament refuted Leviticus's hatefull dribble in the old testament.

Really, EB, you're going to sit here and say that you not only support this horrific event but, in fact, encourage others to do so because of the Bible??????

Did you forget "Judge lest ye be judged" and you or nobody else here on this planet has the right to make such decsions, even on behalf of the Christian God.

Let me throw this one out there too: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." So you're also telling us that YOU are without sin. Sure. Put your stupid stone down!

I agree with Casey, 7.1 above. EB -- I'm a New Testament kind of girl. Please cite a passage in which Jesus condemned homosexuality.

EB read Hebrews and learn that the old testament is for the Jews and the new testament if for the followers of Jesus and then remember the woman brought before him naked and caught in the act of adultery and when the good folks were unable to throw the first stone Jesus told her that nether would he condemn her but to go her way and sin no more.

And the bible also says we can't shave, eat shellfish, sow more than one kind of seed in the same field, wear more than one type of fiber at a time, we can sell our daughters into slavery, and if our son is disobedient, we can take him to the elders at the town gate and have him stoned to death. As a Christian, I can't take every word in the bible (written by people with their own agenda) literally. And, why would I believe in a God who would make a person gay, then send them to hell for acting on it? Does that make any sense??

And again I state EB

Leviticus 19:27 "You shall not round the edge of your head, nor shall you destroy the edge of your beard."

So...let me get this...I can't be gay but you can shave. OK. Sure.

David-1374830, that was an excellent post.

I get so tired of people continually using the Bible to forward their own hateful agendas.

NEW Testament: Romans 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

It's always so funny how people pick and chose what 'sins' to endorse, laughably funny.

Jesus in the new testament refuted Leviticus's hatefull dribble in the old testament.

Probably because he and his 12 buddies were likely gay. I mean think about it... they went around preaching about loving one another and not a single one of 'em wanted to sleep with the village prostitute. Hello! What does that tell ya?

It's 2000 years of denial of this obvious truth that has gotten us to where we are today.

m-612920 - NEW Testament: Romans 1:27

That was said by the zealot Paul, who never actually met Jesus.

Jesus never said one thing about homosexuality. And fortunately your cult isn't relevant to our law.

NEW Testament: Romans 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

This is why I hate it when people use Bible versus to justify something they already believe - ultra conservative Christians to justify their hate, and Atheists to "prove" that the Bible is hateful. This is a classic example of a verse used out of context. This passage in Romans is one of the best passages promoting tolerance in the Bible, not intolerance.

The verse continues: "(Romans 1:28-32 to 2:1) 28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, 30)slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

Now this looks bad right? Paul is really hammering non-Christians. Then you get the first verse of Chapter 2.

"You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things."

Turns out the passage isn't so much about non-Christians as it is about judgmental Christians. It has a surprise ending that you wouldn't know about unless you read the whole passage! It's called Rhetoric.

The hateful Christian (mutually exclusive, I believe) and the quoting Atheist make the same mistake. They think the Bible is simple. They give more weight to one or two verses than to the overarching message of the Bible - a message of love and redemption. A hateful Christian would use this same verse out of context to justify hurting homosexuals and when other Christians rebuke them, the quoting Atheist quotes another verse out of context, in essence saying "No, they're right, the Bible is hateful." They both make the same mistake.

What was that about "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?

HChris,

You're doing the very thing you're accusing others of doing, taking verses out of contecxt in an attempt to justify something which will NEVER EVER be justifiable in scripture.

Go do an in depth study of the greek in the passage you're quoting and find the meaning to all the greek words Paul used. Grab yourself a Lexicon and some study guides and have at it and if you do this and do it honestly, you'll find that while yes the Bible speaks of not judging, it also speaks of and instructs Christians to stand up for the very truths held within and hold accountable those who would attempt to misquote the Word of God and spread false teaching. This is the very reason Paul rebuked Peter so harshly in Antioch.

Those people who claim about this issue that because Christ never mentioned it it's not a sin are extremely mistaken. Paul spoke in depth about this issue and Paul is unquestionably the greatest apostle of Christ who ever walked the earth. The guy spent over 17 calender years in prison for preaching Christ, wrote MOST of the New Testament and was eventually beheaded for his faith, not to mention he was not only an extremely high ranking Jew but a Roman Citizen as well.

To attempt to discount Paul's teaching on this subject in an attempt to win an argument which cannot be won is ludicrous at best.

Paul was a homophobe, a misogynist and a bigot. He was nothing like the Christ whose message he supposedly preached. It's the reformed ones who are always the worst holier than thou over pious judgemental prigs.

If the Christian religion had stuck to the words and teachings of Christ, the so-called "red letter" version of Christianity, the entire world would be a much more peaceful place.

Paul was a homophobe, a misogynist and a bigot.

There is some more assumptive bull@!$%# from someone who wants the truth to go away. Too bad it's not going to go away.

Prove Paul was all those things with some hard facts. You cannot and before you go trying to pull this or that scripture out of context to try and prove a point that is literally unprovable consider the fact that is WAS IN FACT Christ who commissioned Paul to do what Paul did. Paul was writing and acting under the direct authority of Christ.

The problem with people like you Mikey is that Paul preaces truths that are in direct conflict with your personal beliefs, therefore you accuse and attack the man instead of attempting to refute his message, which is not refutable anyway but none the less.

I've heard this same bull@!$%# about a million times and it ALWAYS, ALWAYS comes out of the mouths of those who wan homosexuality to be okay according to the scripture. Wwell guess what there youngster, it's not, period, end of story.

You have no argument Mikey, you cannot prove your claim and you can never convince anyone otherwise. Just give up and accept the truth for what it is Mikey because it's NOT what you wrote.

If the Christian religion had stuck to the words and teachings of Christ, the so-called "red letter" version of Christianity, the entire world would be a much more peaceful place.

Funny thing about this statement is that Christ himself commissioned the other authors, sooooooooo...................

Since you've already stated that quoting biblical verses "out of context" would not constitute proof for you, I won't waste my time bothering to do so.

I do not want "homosexuality to be okay according to scripture". What I want is for people like you to stop using your supposedly holy scriptures as justification for hatred, which in it's essence is hypocritically contrary to the basic message of love which your supposed savior was trying to teach you, but which apparently you are not interested in listening to.

And by the way, I am not a "youngster". My tagname, if that's what you based that assumption on, is a reference to an old TV commercial that I used to get teased about when I was young. If you know the commercial, you might be able to estimate my age. If you don't, then I'm probably older than you are.

Since you've already stated that quoting biblical verses "out of context" would not constitute proof for you, I won't waste my time bothering to do so.

Well said because doing so is not only a waste of time but a terrible blow to anyone's credibility as well.

What I want is for people like you to stop using your supposedly holy scriptures as justification for hatred, which in it's essence is hypocritically contrary to the basic message of love which your supposed savior was trying to teach you, but which apparently you are not interested in listening to.

PEOPLE LIKE ME?!? Dude you know nothing about me, my background, history, education, NOTHING. So unless you can clearly copy and paste any post I've made which is hatred, I'll simply take your apology up front for assuming things. And by the way, claiming from a Christiaqn perspective that homosexulaity is a sin is not being hateful it's stating a very basic biblical truth and standing up for what someone believes in. The HATE THE SIN LOVE THE SINNER is a real philosophy there Mikey sooooooooo

And by the way, I am not a "youngster". My tagname, if that's what you based that assumption on, is a reference to an old TV commercial that I used to get teased about when I was young. If you know the commercial, you might be able to estimate my age. If you don't, then I'm probably older than you are.

I know the commercial and no you're not older than me, however, accept my apologies for calling you a youngster, that was ME assuming and it was wrong, my bad.

Dude,

of course I know nothing about you personally. When I said "people like you" I was referring to Christians in general. If you're not a Christian then I do apologize for that assumption. However, if you want to go and hide behind your "HATE THE SIN LOVE THE SINNER" banner, all I can say is go tell that to your friends at the Westboro Baptist Church.

First, I am a Christian.

Second, I hide behind NOTHING okay, N-O-T-H-I-N-G

Finally, don't ever, NEVER EVER mention my name in a sentence with WBC mister, not even jokingly. I've dealt with them personally both as a Christian and as a former Marine and if you wish to discuss anything with me then cease with the @!$%#ing lame assed assumptions and let's talk, otherwise move the @!$%# on it's that simple, got it Mikey?

NOw do you have something related to this topic you'd care to further discuss with me or are you just gonna throw the typical hate filled liberal lame assed snide remarks around like you're already doing?

Oh, and Mikey, before you lambast me for calling myself a Chriastian and spinning off, just remember Christians are NOT perfect, just forgiven. Christians get mad, a lot. So save that one for someone else.

truthseeker

yes you do hide

you hide your bigotry in your chosen religion -- you make all sorts of wild assumptions about every poster that has a different view than you do-- you ignore all truth that doesn't fit your preconceived point of view and you defend christian EVILgelical leaders who are responsible for murders and violence against gays--- hardly the christian thing to do

then you try to show your disdain for one of your very own fred phelps is -- wait for it -- a christian -- just like you he claims to be a christian yet his actions do not reflect anything of the teachings of christ-- rather than spending your energy defending murders here you time would be well spent working to reel in the whacko christian leaders -- but I am sure that wont happen

I'll go with what Jesus said about homosexuality (nothing) rather than the words of a zealous convert who never knew Jesus.

The problem with people like truthseeker is that like the zealot Paul they presume to impose their religious views on everyone else - even those who don't share those peculiar views.

In Romans, Paul was condemning sacred prostitution used in the temples of certain non-Christian religions. It's a mystery why he would presume to condemn the religious practices of other faiths rather than simply using his faith to control his only life, but it's typical behavior for wingnut Christians like truthseeker who want their Sharia law imposed on everyone.

The desire of people like truthseeker and David Bahati to impose their religious views on all of society are the reason for the violence we see in Uganda, and the violence of Scott Roeder.

while we can all agree that the law is absolutely horrible, it is their law and the only way to change it is force them to by regime change or deny any aid since it never really gets to the people in need but the gov't in power and makes them stronger. Maybe we can send the ACLU over to Uganda to fight for their rights

Howdy, Richard,

I would remind you that a major contributor to the end of apartheid in South Africa was the refusal of other civilized nations around the world do business with and disinvest economically,through the use of economic boycott, from the apartheid government in power there at the time.

Among social mammals "socially ostracising" a member of the group for offencive behavior is a commonly used and effective strategy of controlling misbehavior within the group.

In fact, that is the stratagy used by this site to enforce its rules.

Philbert, Good point, I missed that one. Thanks

KatGirl,

No. Just our political leaders when they give speeches about how gays are a grave threat to family, national security, and overall social well-being. When they label us as terrorists and claim we're the greatest threat to the nation's continued prosperity, they're basically calling on all the crazies to kill us, knowing full well that's exactly what will come of their rhetoric (I've been saying this for years, long before the whole Arizona shooting incident), and they revel in it, also knowing they can't be prosecuted for it.

Instead of pictures in the newspapers, you get all the American fuss and foderol over gay marriage/civil unions/whatever you want to call it.

How much money has been wasted because there's a difference between what a man & woman are allowed to do, vs. a man & man/woman & woman (spare me the specious arguements about gay marriage being a "gateway" activity toward polyagmy and all the other bugaboo craziness), that could've been put towards the creation of sustainable jobs? Food banks? Goodwill? Clean water? Education?

Being homophobic is like white male bashing, or decrying obesity...it's one of the last "scared" dislikes that the PC American is allowed to be openly for w/o society frowning upon you, as long as you cloak it as being in defense of your particular take on the Bible, protecting innocent children from the maurauding bands of gay banditos, and so forth.

Personally, I'd be willing to give up wanting to be gay married if it meant that our country could finally make sure SS isn't going to be insolvent by the time I want to retire, and that I could actually get a good, well paying job in a city of my choice with a home that wouldn't ever be foreclosed on by a scummy robo-signing banking outfit that was out to package my mortgage as 1/65th billionth of a deriviative just to turn a profit at the next shareholders meeting where the board gets a big fatty bonus for being a lilly of the field and not producing anything.

But then, I suppose that's asking too much, isn't it?

"...maurauding bands of gay banditos..."

That will surely go down as one of the great satirical lines in newsvine history.

I can't stop laughing....I keep picturing The Three Amigos....

Does anyone remember the really miserable old movie "Zorro, the Gay Blade"? Did the same thing for gays that "Blazing Saddles" did for blacks.

"Aye-yie-yie-yie...

We are the styleeto banditos!

We come to your towns with our fashion advice,

We'll decorate your house, you won't have to think twice!"

Wow, honey, who were those masked men?

Oh, no one special, just the Styleeto Banditos.

Well they were sure nicely dressed, and just look at our new living room!

KatGirl1977 - At least we don't have people calling for them to be arrested/killed in the newspapers.(hopefully)

Unfortunately we do - the Montana Republican party wants to criminalize homosexuality, and calls for that in its party platform. Same thing with the leadership of the bigoted anti-gay marriage group NOM.

And some American evangelicals like Herb Titus and Gary North want to stone gays to death.

Whether the Taliban is Christian or Muslim makes no difference - both want to use the government to impose their religious views on all of society. And both want to harm gays.

There are politicians out there pushing for Transgendered individuals to be prosecuted as identity thieves. And THAT is only ONE example of the hatred out own government spouts. So if you think it's only bad overseas... don't fool yourself... before long; I'll be hunted down in the USA as a criminal just because of who I am.

Rolling Stone in Uganda is not the same publication as the "The Rolling Stone" magazine in the States.

Not THAT Rolling Stone - a newspaper over there called Rolling Stone.

Had the U.S. Rolling Stone done something like this, even in today's extremely hostile-toward-gays environment, their headquarters would've already been burned to the ground. No, this was basically a tabloid magazine by the same name published only in Uganda.

U.S. "Rolling Stone" would never have done something like this, no matter what.

In so many of these cultures, it's commonplace for the "media" to assist in vicious vigilante justice by "advertising" for the murderous side.

The US version of Rolling Stone has essentially become a trash magazine full of corporate whores who like to think that they're edgy. It has come quite far from its counter-culture roots.

With that being said, it's a shame what happened, and those who committed the acts, as well as those who either called for violence against gays, or applauded it when it happens are certainly not "Christians" by any sense of the word. The only god they truly worship is the god of intolerance, and in the end, that god will always lose.

So are you saying that the people of Uganda have not "evolved"? Evolved into what? Americans.

Now there's a solution!???

As a Christian, I would not call those who did this Christian. I wouldn't call those who inspired and encouraged them Christian either. It is possible to do something in the name of a religion that the religion itself would actually condemn. It's the only way to explain how Catholic history has given us both the crusades and Mother Theresa (just to site a few well known extremes).

However, I would agree with you that the name of Christianity has been used more than most any other religion (possibly even more than Islam) to spread hate, intolerance, and genocide.

Well, HIV originally came from Africa. Ebola originally came from Africa. Almost all the hurricanes that ever hit the U.S. originally came from the west coast of Africa. And, well, all of mankind originally came from Africa. That continent seems to be a big ol' hotbed of destruction.

Funny how you jumped to condem an entire continent because of the actions of one person. I'm sure that they feel the same way about america.

Shanta,

Look at not just Uganda, but even Zimbabwe, the Republic of Congo, etc. It's not just one person, but thousands if not millions of them harboring such animalistic hostility toward gays, and at the behest of their countries' leaders. This isn't an isolated incident. Neither is the rhetoric of the leadership that prompted it to occur.

They're completely out of control over there.

And america is not completely out of control? Africa has it's problems, but they are no better or worst that America.

Shanta,

Please re-read the last thing I listed as having originally come from Africa: all mankind.

Yes, the U.S. has plenty of problems. Every country in the world does. But, it's all because of mankind, which originated in Africa. So, I'm quite correct to posit that some of the most destructive calamities ever known have come from Africa. It's not Africa's inhabitants I'm blaming for all these things, mind you. There just seems to be something in the water over there, as it were. ;-)

However, the political leaders I mentioned are plenty to blame for what's happening to gays in their respective countries. And it's only getting worse each day, not better. They're devolving rapidly.

But, it's all because of mankind, which originated in Africa.

No it did not, not even close. But I'm certain you can post proof of this claim can you not?

Ever heard of the "FERTILE CRESCENT"?

It's not even close to Africa.

"Fertile Crescent" was the birthplace of civilization. Not mankind. That came from Africa.

Then define the difference and post your proof.

Seeker,

This is just one of thousands of articles, including those in enormously respected, highly regarded scientific journals, to support our statements that mankind originated in Africa. Of course, you can refuse to believe it, as I suspect you will, but that's really of no concern to me. ;-)

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL1885586220070718

or fully in control by their view......

If it's of no concern to you then why even bother to post a reply, let alone one so condescending? Kind of doesn't reflect very brightly on anything else you might have to say. I'll look at the link, but since you've already grabbed onto the mindset that I won't believe it, then I see no need to reply further.

By the way, you do realize scientists have been known to be wrong do you not? Darwin has been pretty much copmpletely destroyed and refuted by history itself soooooooooo...........................

Seeker,

Darwin's biggest contribution to the world of science was his hypothesis of natural selection, which is one of the most fundamental principles of evolution. Though some further particulars might have been misguided, there is simply no refuting that he gave the world of academia and our understanding of nature that invaluable bit of insight, so he can in no way be so summarily dismissed as you attempted.

Also, it's hard not to be condescending when one possesses superior intellect. ;-)

Tongue-in-cheek retort aside, though, it was you who first resorted to condescension, so I figured I would speak your language to better communicate with you. I see, now, that you expect others not to behave as you do, which leads me to believe you might just be Southern Baptist--or least some flavor of Christian, who are notoriously prone to harboring/exhibiting double-standards.

It's hard not to be condescending when one possesses superior intellect. ;-)

Don't break your arm falsly congratulating yourself there mr/ms ego, you haven't a clue as to my intellect and anyone who calims such superiority then writes as you do is clearly a liar soooooooooo..............................

Now to the rest of your overly ego-inflated nonsense. To begin with, I was addressing someone else who made a claim not you, so perhaps you might consider butting the @!$%# out unless you're claiming to speak for this person. That way you won't look so blatantly trollish in the future.

As for your very wrong and assinine assumptions concerning denominationalism, perhaps it would be well advised for you to consider not coming to a gunfight in the future with nothing more than a paring knife, it'll spare you lots of future humiliation.

NOw greet all the other trolls as you enter the hallowed ground of my ignore list.

By the way, as for that lil snide assed intellect remark, don't flatter yourself, I'd lay my money on the fact that Big Bird went farther in schoool than you did there kiddo.

Any anthropologist worth their salt will tell you that the first modern homo sapien sapiens skeletons were found in africa. Mesopotamia was one of the first places colonized because of its proximity to africa though...

Seeker,

I started my very next sentence by stating very clearly that my comment about superior intellect was facetious. Either you stopped reading before you got to that point, or you flat-out chose to ignore the fact that I pointed out I was joking, and now you're trying to post some sort of revisionist response.

Unfortunately for you, since you can't go back and edit my comment to remove my clarification, your selective response to my post comes off like an attempt to selectively edit a video/audio recording to make the final production seem very different from the original material (Andrew Breitbart much?). This is something I can only charitably call laughable.

As for your claim that you weren't addressing me, well, let's go back and look, shall we?

Your first post in this particular box:

"But, it's all because of mankind, which originated in Africa.

No it did not, not even close. But I'm certain you can post proof of this claim can you not?

Ever heard of the "FERTILE CRESCENT"?

It's not even close to Africa."

You posted this in response to my claim that all mankind came from Africa, which is apparent because you quoted my post--no one else's.

Now let's look at another of your posts:

"If it's of no concern to you then why even bother to post a reply, let alone one so condescending? Kind of doesn't reflect very brightly on anything else you might have to say. I'll look at the link, but since you've already grabbed onto the mindset that I won't believe it, then I see no need to reply further.

By the way, you do realize scientists have been known to be wrong do you not? Darwin has been pretty much copmpletely destroyed and refuted by history itself soooooooooo..........................."

As much as I tried to find another instance of anyone using the sentence you referred to at the very outset of that post, I couldn't. Mine was the only post to say such a thing.

Once again, you're quite comical in your seeming hysteria/lack of grasp of reality.

And, finally, how much money are you willing to wager, exactly? 'Cause I'm perfectly willing to take you up on that. In fact, I'll even wager I went farther than you. ;-)

By the way, are you a Christian?

Howdy truthseeker10,

May I remind you that Pride, is one of the seven deadly sins referred to in the bible. If I were you I wouldn't go around pointing out anyone els's problem with a big ego.

How do you fit all that ego into such a small mind?

Blood calls out for blood? An eye for an eye?

You know that always ends well. /endscarcasm

Brilliant thinking, RedDawg. Because Giles Muhame called for violence of homosexuals, we must now... call for violence against Giles Muhame?

And you say that the gay people of Uganda must "secretly and methodically exact revenge"? I'm sorry... I'm pro-gay rights all the way, but if ANY group of people collectively began "secretly and methodically" torturing and executing people, regardless of the target, I'd have to say that it would justifiably draw scorn, suspicion, and fear of that group as a whole. If a cabal of Dairy Farmers was roaming the city streets torturing and executing people who protest against cheese, even though I do not protest against cheese I would still find myself feeling nervous around Dairy Farmers.

It's sad that he was killed, period. But, it's even sadder that he was killed not regardless of his sexual orientation, but precisely because of it.

Right on LJ

no pretty normal in the whole of history

don't forget members of our Congress who fostered & promoted this.

Howdy, Die-HardLib,

How can we forget? They're out there, every day, reminding us.