Hummmmmmmmmmm I always wondered where Saints came from ....

Sorta like being a CEO and getting a gold watch after you go?

I, too, believe in the FSM. However, in our religion, we do not beatify people. We MEATify them. Yes, they become Saintly Meatballs and are invited to sit on the holy plate of spaghetti aside His Noodley Appendages.

As to this whole saint business, it's a crock. Men are doing the appointing, not god.

Randy and bonos_rama:

Keep your religion to yourself please. I have it on good authority that the one true god is the Invisible Pink Unicorn. All you guys are trying to do is stir up hatred and bad feelings. Great! Can we look for more crusades thanks to you guys insisting you know the one true God - the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Please, for the sake of mankind, stop now.

By the way, I just saved another citizen. I don't know what the hell that little old lady was doing in the crosswalk, but I did NOT run over her.

All you guys are trying to do is stir up hatred and bad feelings.

Yeah, and your motivation is what? When you can prove God does not exist, come back and present your evidence. Until then, you're just another troll, with no more basis for your non-belief than the people you mock have for their belief.

and the "Best Pwnage" award of the day goes to....Phyllis!!!! Come down and collect your idolatrous trophy in the shape of The Flying Spaghetti Monster mating with The Invisible Pink Unicorn.

wow, phyllis, so full of hate. maybe you should try a little religion.

cmon - the only "hate" in phyliss's comment was an obvious disgust for fbickerchick's specious illogical comments. If someone is going to regurgitate such a flimsy argument then said person can expect an excoriating rebuttal.

Maybe you should try a little logic.

ivanho, put down the thesaurus. eschew obfuscation.

cmon: Yeah, since if someone wants to rid one's self of hate, religion has had such awesome historical success of accomplishing such a lofty goal, ha ha.

Funniest posts regarding religion, and its minions, and their logic and language EVER!

Well done guys.

im catholic, not practicing, dont really believe that making him a saint has any impact on the universe whatsoever but...

woot! john paul was awesome and loved by everybody! he deserves it.

not like this new guy. this new guy sucks =(

I feel sorry for anyone who does not beleive God is real. He has no need to prove anything to people. I am sure you understand if you say no to God you will burn in hell. Thats no laughing matter

cmon - ok then, plain english. Please explain how phyliss's comment did not expose the flaw in fbikerchick's argument? It seems all you have done is make meaningless ad hominen posts. Oops, big word. Sorry.

Obviously there are no logic classes at catechism, or any religious institutions for that matter. Asking someone to prove a god “doesn’t exist”!

Google the following: “fallacy: burden of proof”

Ivan, for those who have faith, no proof is necessary. For those who don't, no proof is enough.

I feel sorry for those who do not see/feel the blessings of God in their lives.

Well said, Janine!

Evidence is fool proof...Faith is a fool's proof

To "Matt from Philly:"

Did you catch the Eagles game? Tough break, I was rooting Mike Vick on! Anyway, about your comment about how, former Pope, John Paul II shouldn't be a saint for the covering up of all the scandals; is their any proof that all of the rumors were true? I understand where you're coming from, but maybe we have to look at it from his perspective. First of all, I'd like to see, I've honestly believe that a man should not be held for someone else's acts, which is something we agree on because you don't think he was involved with the rapping of young ones. Okay, that being said, the Pope might've known about it, but why be open about it to the public. Local enforcement is there to take care of the general public. Also, what's the difference between the Pope speaking with his Cardinals, who will then repeat the message to those below them, and so on and so on, reporting to them how serious the matter is, and how it needs to be stopped; what's the difference between that and being open about it, with the public, starting this huge scandal and make the horrible people that call themselves priests to try harder to not get caught, knowing that its huge with the media. I'm sorry to anyone who was hurt during this all. I'd like to state that I agree with the way the Pope decided to deal with all this, "cover up" is just the way the media portrayed it, I see it as dealing with it in an orderly fashion. -J.I.

To Dave Walker:

A man does not become a saint for saving lives; if that was the case, I would know many saints. The thing about becoming a saint is that you do whatever you can do to help others, without being prideful or flaunting your "good morals" for others to see. I understand you don't believe in a higher power, that's your call and I respect you for that, but to mock a religion for their beliefs is highly un-called for. A man who wants fame for being himself, a man who mocks others, one who is blind to the world around him, in my opinion, does not deserve to be a saint. And that my friend, is the best answer I can give you on why you're not a saint. -J.I.

Indigo Halo - I agree with you that religion has not had awesome historical success of accomplishing such a lofty goal. Europe, at least, seems to have tried to remove religion for that reason. But has the void of religion produced anything better? For example, in the 20th century, we saw Lenin, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin and others step into that void, which resulted in by far the bloodiest century the whole has ever scene (The War of the World: Twentieth-Century Conflict and the Descent of the West). Has anyone been able to get it right? Is the goal too lofty? Would you say we were better off without religion (e.g., from the French Reign of Terror to the World Wars to the Cold War)? Or the Barbarian hoardes before Christianity?

He also rewarded the Archcoverup of Boston (Cardinal Law) with a plum job at one of the big churches in Rome. This also got him out of the legal reach of Boston. I was horrified when Cardinal Law said one of the official Masses for Pope John Paul.

I see Phylis is hear again spewing her hate. She is a bigot agains the mentally ill and religion. She attacks them at every chance. I would put her on ignore. She offers nothing productive on the situation.

I have to agree. He did nothing that would leave me to believe he deserves to be a saint. He and all the other popes before him that covered up all the abuse by priests deserve to burn in hell along with the priests who did the molesting of innocent children. To know about it and cover it up is a crime that will have to be answered to a higher power.

@ GenuinelyInterested

I would argue that the advancement of technology and weaponry was what fueled those bloody wars. It's easier to kill more people with a bomb than it is with a bow and arrow or sword. Guess you didn't think that one through very well.

its not a prayer praising or worshipping John Paul but a prayer asking for his intercession. THAT is the difference in praying to idols. You are praising or worshiping,. We ask John to pray for us before God, We ask friends to pray for us when we are sick or dying. they do not have any power accept beseaching our Lord for mercy for us. when 2 or more of you are gathered in prayer, I am present. why not someone who is in God's presense?

If JP2 becomes a saint, then we might as well elevate the family heads of the Italian Mafia while we're at it.

So how do you explain the bloodiness of the civil war as opposed to WWI or II. The civil war was was far bloodier if compared battle by battle instead of entire war and by number of combatants on the field. 50,000 plus at gettysburg alone over three days. we lost far less on D Day +3

WOW, Invanho... I bet you learned this big word two years ago and have been waiting to use it!!! good job, young one!!! keep learning big words!!! one day you'll be all grown up and full of knowledge!

As a former Catholic, this is just a con job to take the media off the scent of all these criminals. Priests by virtue of the church are a pack of "queens" with their little slippers, the fancy hats, the flowing robes, the fancy digs that the "flock" provide. This is a "society" of the demented. The Catholic Church is but another huge fraud perpetrated on it's followers, who look for phony salvation, nothing more.

Promising "eternal" life, based on nothing tangible or proveable. Religion is the greatest "con" ever inflicted on mankind, and marks the beginning of "taking" from others based on the continual fraud perpetrated on the weak willed and needy.

This is unbelievable. One of these days the Catholics will have to answer why they worshiped a MAN (a sinner as we all are) more than Jesus Christ.

And ALL Pope's will have to answer why they allowed themselves to be worshiped and called Holy. Shame on you all.

I will not bow to them.

JCB-1236504

As a former Catholic, you either changed to a different religion or left religion completely. That is your choice. The beauty of this choice is that you do not have to pray to or recognize JPII as a saint. Leave that choice to the ones that do want to pray to him and recognize him as a saint. I am sure that you would feel the same if someone else was trying to tell you who you should or should not pray to.

At the end, we all are going to be proven right or wrong. We will find out if there is God or not, and if there is, what he or she looks like.

@GenuinelyInterested

To say that religion failed, but so did Hitler does not make a great case for religion. Furthermore, going even farther backwards is idiotic at best. No, I don't think we need barbarians. Nor do I believe that mankind would make that move. With the new technologies comes many new abilities that humankind is taking a hold of.

Looking at the struggle in Tunisia and the fact that the people were able to communicate and rally around for THE GOOD OF MANKIND. Not for some all powerful god. Not for some man in a castle and robe. But for goodwill and goodwill alone.

We are all the same, brothers and sisters of the human race. There are only two lessons that are required for peace. Learn to love yourself. Learn to love everyone else just as much. That is goodwill.

Goodwill is a part of human nature. Not some gift from an unknown source. The sooner we all learn to see that as truth, the sooner these philosophical wars can stop.

The great John Paul was clearly a saint who acted in the best interests of all mankind. It is fitting that the Church should recognize it.

Better yet, even looking at your precious bible, there is the story of the good Samaritan. Was he acting by decree of his god? Was he looking for personal gain? Nope, goodwill.

The first decree of your bible, love one another.

The base foundation of all religious and philosophical teachings? love. peace. goodwill.

The god aspect is an unnecessary point of splitting hairs. Whether you worship Allah, god, Buddha, Wednesday, Saturday, Once a week, or once in your life, pagan, atheist, or follower of the flying spaghetti unicorn... love one another.

Maybe if we all stopped spending so much time trying to define our gods, defending the lies and sins of our religions and our leaders, and instead saw all men as truly equal (and not saints or gods or kings or popes or presidents above the law) we could spend more time helping each other, our planet, and our species...

There have been similar scandals by ministers and/or heads of other denominations. Do you not wonder why they aren't so publicised? When one of these ministers does such scandalous things, their denomination doesn't bear the brunt of it. It's looked upon as one person committing the offense, then briefly mentioned, and soon forgotten. Not so for the Catholic Church. One preist commits a scandalous act, and it goes on and on in the media, and the entire Church is blamed, including the Pope. Yet the Catholic Church as done more to help the poor, the needy, and society in general, building schools and hospitals centuries ago in order to educate the poor. But the church is ignored until there is a scandal! The media loves to go after the Catholic Church! Could it be that most of them are non-Christian?

Per capita, what are the rates of pedophilia in other sects?

Per capita, what are the rates of the cover ups of said acts?

If another religion has a scandal they do the RIGHT things and TELL THE TRUTH.

Own up to the fact that the Catholic Church handled this VERY poorly. Own up to that honestly and completely.

And honestly... Have the Catholics taken more persecution than the Muslims? The Mormons? The pagans of old?

And that Lena is what the rest of the world see looking in. And you still try and point fingers at others, try to pass the blame, try to say 'hey, look other people do it too!'. So two wrongs make this right? Man up or GTFO.

When one of these ministers does such scandalous things, their denomination doesn't bear the brunt of it. It's looked upon as one person committing the offense, then briefly mentioned, and soon forgotten.

Not to mention the fact that the public school system has ALSO been widely guilty of just firing pedophiles but refusing to give them a bad recommendation let alone press charges. This phenomenon has a name, "passing the trash". I girl I knew was molested by a teacher in public school I attended in the 1970s. Nobody would do anything.

So, because the schools do it to that makes it better that the catholic church did it?

The church is supposed to be the epitome of grace, honor, truth, goodwill, and respect. If this were an isolated incident then I would agree the media was unfair. If the church had owned up to it and apologized immediately then I would agree that the media was unfair. If the church had aired out the skeletons themselves as soon as they were caught in a lie then I would probably agree that the media was unfair.

But the church has proven it has no honor, no grace, and no understanding of goodwill or truth. In as much I believe the media has been more than fair.

ElectricMotion

So, because the schools do it to that makes it better that the catholic church did it?

I don't think he or she is saying that. This is a huge issue that is finally starting to come to light. Let's not forget that until now, and even now, parents were guilty of hiding the shame as well. We thought we were protecting the victims by not speaking the truth. And by doing so, we allowed some victims to become the molesters.

How many of us have uncles, cousins even brothers that we do not want to admit to? I am including ALL OF US because it affects all of us - directly or indirectly.

Yes, exactly, most parents thought that by protecting the victims from having to testify, etc., they were protecting them from even more harm. In at least some cases, this might even be true--for those particular children. But what nobody understood was that these people usually victimized MANY children, and had to be stopped. Now let's answer an honest question. If you thought YOUR baby would be harmed, but many others would be saved, would you make him or her testify? How could any loving parent actually answer this? Any answer would be wrong.

Bay, I can fully appreciate what you have said, and respect your tone and approach. And while that is a worthy conversation to have, does it change or have any relevance to the actions of the church under the reign of JP2?

The catholic church are supposedly followers of god. The base values are grace, truth, and love. For this particular institution to have had such issues while proclaiming and preaching and pontificating said values, and to have this particular institution so shut down by shame as to not do the right thing is the issue at hand. Shame of the victims, shame of the predators, shame of what the world might think if they knew. If they knew what? The truth.

While what you say is a conversation that must be had, it is not the conversation at hand.

I hope you are well. And my heart goes out to you and anyone you love who has gone through the terribleness of these kinds of actions. Understanding how terrible it is should only make things more clear.

@OomYaaqub. It has been brought to light than many people knew about the goings on. These priests were being transfered around because of their actions.

Even if the church had created an isolated coven to send priests with such issues to keep them from the parishioner's children would have been an acceptable internal solution in my mind. But instead they chose to knowingly keep these priests protected, and in the general public.

So, no answer was needed from the parishioner or their child. The church knew. And chose to do nothing. That is the issue at hand.

You still didn't answer my question. Let's say you make your baby testify, and the abuser is acquitted. It happens. Does he or she then think that maybe somehow he or she is guilty because they weren't believed? It could happen. And it could be very destructive.

So instead we let the guilty parties roam free on a chance that we couldn't catch them?

So instead we teach our child that they should not stand up for what is right, should not tell the truth, and that they should let evil men roam free because you are afraid the legal system MIGHT fail.

Doing what is right is not easy. I thought Jesus was supposed to teach you that.

We teach our children the stories of Job and of Jesus so that they have stories that provide hope through hard times. But when the religious community starts to treat them as nothing more than nice stories, how is anyone else supposed to be able to garner faith in your doctrine?

What if Gandhi had gone with the, 'we shouldn't try to stop the injustices, we might fail" approach?

What if our founding fathers had said, 'but the queen's men are so many more than us, we shouldn't try to fight for freedom' instead of starting a revolution?

How about if David had seen Goliath and run?

I would hope that I would have the strength to teach my child to do that which is right, to speak the truth, and to pursue justice. Not because some god says to, but because it is the right thing to do, not only for themselves, but for the good of mankind.

"Beatified"... does that means he is to be beaten... cuz I'm all for it!

@seriously?!-2570893

Maybe I'm wrong, but as best I can tell, it's not the power of the weaponry that results in the amount of blood spilt as much as it is the morals of those in authority commanding the foot soldiers who wield the weaponry. I don't think anyone would argue with you that weapons today are much more lethal than in previous times. I thought that went without saying (sorry if I shouldn’t have assumed, though).

So my real question was: sure, you can bash religion (and here, I would like to specifically talk about Christianity), but what is your solution that offers a better alternative? To me, it would seem that as long as humans are involved, there are going to be problems. But the extent and variety of the problems does seem to be related to the ideological underpinnings of those "calling the shots."

In that respect, I would like to see the case made for how a country run by Christian moral principles (and the actions of which were in line with such principles) has caused greater devastation in terms of human rights violations than one run by a non-Christian morality. I am “genuinely interested” about this. Thank you!

@Electric Motion

As regards barbarians, I’m glad to see you agree we wouldn’t go back to that. So my question for you is: how did "we" get past barbarianism? What were the influencing factors? Obviously, the great Roman Empire was unable to tame them. What eventually did?

BTW, thank you for your sincerity and thoroughness in your posts. I can tell you really care. That is important to me! Thank you. Also, I will try to reply back to your other comments if I have time. You make good points. Thanks!

This is the organization that declares who is a saint???

Consider,the facts behind Hitler’s rise to power in Germany—ugly facts that some would like to expunge from the history books. In May　1924 the Nazi Party held 32 seats in the German Reichstag. By May　1928 these had dwindled to 12 seats. However, the Great Depression engulfed the world in 1930; riding in its wake, the Nazis made a remarkable recovery, gaining 230 out of 608 seats in the German elections of July　1932. Soon after, former chancellor Franz von Papen, a Papal Knight, came to the Nazis’ aid. According to historians, von Papen envisioned a new Holy Roman Empire. His own short tenure as chancellor had been a failure, so now he hoped to gain power through the Nazis. By January　1933, he had mustered support for Hitler from the industrial barons, and through wily intrigues he ensured that Hitler became Germany’s chancellor on January　30, 1933. He himself was made vice-chancellor and was used by Hitler to win the support of Catholic sections of Germany. Within two months of gaining power, Hitler dissolved parliament, dispatched thousands of opposition leaders to concentration camps, and began an open campaign of oppressing the Jews.

On July　20, 1933, the Vatican’s interest in the rising power of Nazism was displayed when Cardinal Pacelli (who later became Pope Pius　XII) signed a concordat in Rome between the Vatican and Nazi Germany. Von Papen signed the document as Hitler’s representative, and Pacelli there conferred on von Papen the high papal decoration of the Grand Cross of the Order of Pius. In his book Satan in Top Hat, Tibor Koeves writes of this, stating: "The Concordat was a great victory for Hitler. It gave him the first moral support he had received from the outer world, and this from the most exalted source." The concordat required the Vatican to withdraw its support from Germany’s Catholic Center Party, thus sanctioning Hitler’s one-party "total state." Further, its article 14 stated: "The appointments for archbishops, bishops, and the like will be issued only after the governor, installed by the Reich, has duly ascertained that no doubts exist with respect to general political considerations." By the end of 1933 (proclaimed a "Holy Year" by Pope Pius　XI), Vatican support had become a major factor in Hitler’s push for world domination.

Though a handful of priests and nuns protested Hitler’s atrocities—and suffered for it—the Vatican as well as the Catholic Church and its army of clergy gave either active or tacit support to the Nazi tyranny, which they regarded as a bulwark against the advance of world Communism. Sitting pretty in the Vatican, Pope Pius　XII let the Holocaust on the Jews and the cruel persecutions of others proceed uncriticized. It is ironical that Pope John Paul　II, on visiting Germany in May　1987, should glorify the anti-Nazi stand of one sincere priest. What were the other thousands of the German clergy doing during Hitler’s reign of terror? A pastoral letter issued by the German Catholic bishops in September　1939 at the outbreak of World War　II provides enlightenment on this point. It reads in part: "In this decisive hour we admonish our Catholic soldiers to do their duty in obedience to the Fuehrer and to be ready to sacrifice their whole individuality. We appeal to the Faithful to join in ardent prayers that Divine Providence may lead this war to blessed success."

Such Catholic diplomacy illustrates the kind of harlotry that religion has engaged in over the past 4,000 years in wooing the political State in order to gain power and advantage. Such religio-political relationships have fostered warfare, persecutions, and human misery on a vast scale.

I agree, I don't think that he really deserves it.

Its not about Christian or non-Christian. Its about people. Individuals that make up the masses. No church or organization exists without the sum of its masses. So, with this concept understood, it is the job of any organization to properly and fairly balance the needs of the masses with the needs of the individuals.

There are times that you would need to do something that might hurt the group as a whole (outing corrupt priests in this case) that would save many individuals. When any origination uses its power of influence to hide corruption then those individuals in positions of power have not only commit an equally offensive act but, as the heads of the organization, they have signed up to have their words and actions speak for the group as a whole.

Christian, Muslim, Baptist, Buddhist, Kant's rules of Ethics, the tao, Plato, all of our religions and philosophers are telling us the same exact thing. But we all like to fight over the details.

If you take away ceremony, ritual, and the current state of power, all of the worlds religions and philosophers tell us that until man can learn to live and let live, to turn the other cheek, to ignore their own and other's religious and ideological factions and actually be the good Samaritan.

Through the practice of goodwill and the hope for mankind, people can learn to live their lives with love and respect.

As far as moving past this current hate run multi-factional sect exclusive ideological state and make the global step towards a universal humanity (without the power being left to a few men in each religion and country) and learn to live our lives by two simple concepts.

1.) Love yourself and who you are. Learn to love your life, who you are, where you are going, and what you are a part of (the human experience).

2.) Love everyone else. Learn to coexist through compromise, conversation, debate, and respect for differing views. Work your hardest to make everyone that you come in contact with's day better.

The issue I have with ANY religion being in a position of power is that followers are told to not question the word of god. But anytime the people stop questioning their government they have absolute power. And absolute power corrupts absolutely. Crusades anyone? Furthermore, you are ignoring and disregarding the rights of religious freedom of many of the citizens of the country by suggesting a Christian-run society. And finally, we have seen religious run countries fail time and time again.

I have seen that people are afraid of what would happen without religion. I have had church leaders tell me that those without a religion lead empty lives and that if the world didn't have religion the emptiness inside people would lead to chaos and violence and complete degradation.

But in reality, most war is based on things that divide us. Religion has always been a powerful dividing factor in any society. Since no religion in the world has any more basis of truth than any other it would be unfair to suggest that all of mankind agree on one religion as a unifying factor. As this is the case, and with the growing number of logic-philes and data-philes (those who make their decisions based on logic and goodwill, and those who make their decision based on empirical evidence and goodwill) who all stand in either a state of agnosticism or atheism, and with there being no evidence to suggest any religion over the others, logic suggests that the only way for any religion to win would be through the final faith war and the end of the world and the end of freewill.

On the other hand, if we were to look forward as a global species and learn to love ourselves, our lives, and our brothers and sisters in the human race, disregard our religious beliefs and work towards a global community we might have hope.

The bloodiest wars are when people cling to faith or tradition and ignore logic and reason.

and in direct reference to the barbarians...

When I added blue to my yellow I got green. But when I add blue to my red I get purple.

The vikings and pagans were wild men back in the days that nobody could read. Currently we live in an era of great literacy and the internet.

Hocus-pocus and magic tricks worked on the Neanderthal for hundreds of years. But for some reason its not working on people with full access to information who can make their own logical and personal decisions. So, rather than try harder on what is proving to be a failing approach, I am trying my hardest to look to the future and adapt to this growing world and the needs therein.

it is idiotic to say that Pope John Paul promoted pedophilia, how about blaming the pedophiles. Yes, it is sick! But most Catholic priests are good people and do exactly what is expected of them and more. Among all the horrid news we have had to listen to, this is news that is great! Something positive, and unless you have studied Sainthood and how to get there, please don't comment negatively. I find it fantastic, positive news! He did not promote anything negative, otherwise he would not be where he is today. I hope another miracle will be found for him to become a Saint! YEAH!!!

Thanks for throwing all us catholics under the bus dip@!$%#. Your over generalization of all catholics is pretty ignorant. There are misguided men and women in every race and religion, including your's, whatever it may be. Every catholic I know does NOT condone what those priests did and those priests are getting what they deserve now and in the afterlife, just like the fallen men and women of all those offshoot, diluted religions.

Why isn't the pope responsible for pedophilia just as imams are responsible for terrorism?

I'm not going to say that JPII was a pedophile.

I will say that he enabled the pedophiles to continue molesting children by committing everyone to secrecy from the police and by having his administration cover up the crimes and move the guilty priests around without informing parishes about them, thus engendering an environment in which the priests could molest many more children than a typical pedophile would have access to.

Also, I have to call out the crap about this "holier than thou" attitude of the RCC, in that it has proven it is no more worthy of respect or service than any other organization, and far less than many.

Bonos_Rama (#2.3) poses a valid question.
Backing up, a "saint" is traditionally a good soul who is in heaven or will be in heaven. This RCC process doesn't MAKE anyone a saint, it PROCLAIMS them a saint (& I'm pretty sure that such proclamations are not regarded by the RCC as infallible). Whether or not Karol Wojtyla/Pope John Paul II is a saint is a question already resolved between him & God. It's a separate question to consider whether the RCC coming out with their stages of proclamations of Beatification, etc., is a good thing to do now. IMO it seems to be callous & insensitive (at least) to all those who have suffered sexual abuse at the hands (etc.) of clergy over the last century. On this, the news came out during John Paul II's time of being the chosen Shepherd of the Church. So show some modicum of respect, at least, and hold off on the formal Sainthood process for another century. It seems to me more proper at this time in history for the RCC to lift up as a public Saint, some laypersons --perhaps even someone who had suffered sexual abuse at the hands (etc.) of some clergy.
I have a significant amount of admiration for Karol Wojtyla/Pope John Paul II.

how dare you! we catholics are not "holier than thou" like you think we are. John Paul II never promoted pedophilia, but im not saying the cover ups were right either,as a catholic i am ashamed of that. and FYI, not every Roman Catholic priest is pedophile, that's just another unfair stereotype. you people have let a few bad apples spoin the bunch.

Why isn't the pope responsible for pedophilia just as imams are responsible for terrorism?

Question: Why would you blame any imam who condemns terrorism for the acts of terrorists? Those who promote and incite terrorism are guilty; those who condemn such acts are not. Blaming an entire group of people for the acts of a few is bigotry.

Catholicism does not preach pedophilia, nor did John Paul. The Catholic Church decided to waive all statute of limitation protections and opened itself to judgement for wrongful acts committed by priests going back decades. The vast majority of these crimes were committed before Karol Wojtyla was named Pope. Most of the guilty priests are already dead.

"Roman" Catholic Church is a misnomer. The proper name of the church is merely the "Catholic Church". There is a Roman liturgy, just as there are Chaldean, Byzantine, and other Eastern Catholic liturgies, but all are part of the one "Catholic Church". All Catholics are in communion with the Pope, but the City of Rome has nothing to do with it. The Papacy could be moved to Brooklyn tomorrow, and it would be no less valid.

It was the Orthodox who insisted on separate 'national' religions instead of one Universal one.

John Paul II never promoted pedophilia, but im not saying the cover ups were right either...

The cover-ups DID promote and encourage pedophilia, you idiot! And he and the other leaders are responsible for those cover-ups!

Aye yi yi -- the mindlessness....

isn't "beatified" what priests do when they're alone in the little confession room?

or does this mean he's now the 5th beatle?

I dont care how many they add....I like Ringo best.

So... if JP2 is sainted, the kiddies will have to PRAY TO the guy that shielded their rapists from punishment. Wow. That sounds so... typically Catholic.

very crude and mean spirited as always ass hole

I will not bow to them.

Thanx John!!!!! :-)

MacD, it would make as much sense to imprison all Americans and impeach every American President since Ronald Reagan for for the murders committed by Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, and others.

Indigo, JP2 is either a saint or he's not. Recognition by the Church does not change that. Nor do Catholics worship saints. Catholics worship God alone.

Many Catholics, Orthodox, and other Christians do pray for people after those people die. Many Catholics, Orthodox, and other Christians also ask the saints to pray (intercede on their behalf with God) for themselves and most especially on behalf of others.

A more eloquent explanation can be found here:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

nonsense: MacD, it would make as much sense to imprison all Americans and impeach every American President since Ronald Reagan for for the murders committed by Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, and others.

Right, because American Presidents and all Americans knew of their specific crimes, covered them up, and moved them around, hiding them from prosecution, and allowed them to commit even more crimes and claim more victims... ??? Which IS what the catholic church and its leadership did...

Great logic, you moron.

No, it never stopped.

Stations of the Cross is still going strong and there is no way they're going to tear out those little temples in the larger churches to Mary, John, Christopher, etc.

I may have been asleep when it happened.... Where's the miracle? Don't you need a miracle for sainthood?

Where's the miracle? Don't you need a miracle for sainthood?

Actually, I think you need two miracles to actually make it to the Super Bowl. One only gets you to the playoffs. But JP2 does have home-field advantage. According to the article, a French nun with Parkinson's Disease prayed to him and was cured--which, if accepted by the commissioner, would be ruled the first miracle in the process and keep JP2 alive for the next round.

Scuromondo, asking the Saints to pray for you is blasphemous?? LOL, hardly! I ask my friends for prayers and I have been astounded how often the Lord hears our prayers. So you claim its blasphemous to ask our departed saints, alive in God's love and mercy, to pray with us??? Okkkkkkkkk.

Hi! I posted this in the comments, not realizing I could directly reply to you! I hope this helps in your confusion as to why Catholics pray to Saints!

I will pray for you, Friend. Peace to you, and God Bless! :)

A really excellent way to describe Saints and the practice of praying to them is this: Do you ever ask your friends to pray for you? If something is going wrong in your life, do you call on the people around you to pray for you? If your best friend dies, would you pray to him/her? Knowing that your friend is with God, would you ask them since they have already "made it there" to say some prayers for you and to pray with God in Heaven for you? I bet we all do it, a lot more often than we even think!

Catholics look at Saints, the same way we look at our friends. Saints are our friends. They are friends who have gone before us. Do you visit your deceased friends' graves and talk/pray to them? It's the same thing. Statues of Saints are representations of that friend, much like a headstone on a grave becomes "what we talk to" after our friends have died.

Hope this helps clear up the confusion about Saints and why Catholics pray to them! :)

AngelP:

You missed the critical parenthetical: I said "praying to the saints (for intercession)."

While it isn't uncommon to ask people (including dead people, i.e. saints) for their prayers, praying to anyone other than God for intercession is a distinct difference. In most monotheistic religions, one only prays directly to God; praying to a saint implies a sort of polytheism. For example, it was perfectly OK for Greeks to appeal to Ganymede rather than Zeus himself, because Zeus was unpredicatable and unapproachable, and praying to Ganymede (who had an inside track with Zeus) was clearly the safer approach towards getting the results one desired. By contrast, most monotheists belive that prayers can only be directed to the One God, and that praying to any go-between (who presumably has more influence with God) on one's behalf is not generally considered acceptable.

@Scuromondo - there have been rumors of steroid use in the case of the healed nun, so the religious writers are going to have to factor that in. Pete Rose, however, has come out in support of JPII.

I thought that the borderline-blasphemous practice of praying to saints (for intercession) had ended long ago.

Maybe you didnt notice an article here a while back, discussing how they are still doing exorcisms. The religious nuttery in the catholic church knows no bounds. Whack Job City.

They're still in the neanderthal age.

RHR:

Pete Rose, however, has come out in support of JPII.

If Pete Rose ever makes it to the Hall of Fame, that would be nothing short of a miracle--and perhaps the first step in the process of beatifying Saint Charlie Hustle.

Ok.....I don't know about anyone else, but it seems to me there is just a few teeny-weeny problemoswith this scenario...

1) It would seem to me that if you prayed everyday for a good portion of the day eventually you could correlate something good in your life with prayer. Now, depending on how that prayer was formulated, you could correlate a specific prayer with that good thing. This seems to be an elementary confusion between correlation and causation. What about when prayers go unanwsered??

2) How in Great Neptune's Beard do you verfiy that these nuns even prayed to JP2? Does Benedict get on his private God Phone and ask him? Does anybody even consider the possibility of Confirmation Bias here??? I

Is the bar for "miracles" set this low?? Come on Catholics. You're embarrassing yourself here.

In my humble opinion, a person would have to perform a miracle while alive with witnesses for it to be even considered as such. Not only that, it would help if said miracle performed healed/exorcised a non Catholic.

At a minimum I want to see some water changed to wine before it gets my vote.

Curing someone of cancer or AIDS by laying on of hands would be a most welcome miracle. But I'm not holding my breath.

This really makes you think...
maybe all the other saints didn't really do much either, huh?

Did St. Patrick really drive the snakes out of Ireland ?
Or maybe just toss an eel back into the sea and add a wee bit of exaggeration?

If it's this easy to get an approved miracle... jeez... My wife should be a saint too.

People doubted Jesus too. It's called faith. Some have it. Some don't. I will pray for those who don't.

There are no snakes in Ireland to this day; if one is taken there it dies.

The difference between praying to saints and asking your friends to pray for you is this: to be a saint you've got to have performed miracles, which is akin to having the same powers as Jesus (the miracle of the loaves & fishes, etc.). Your friends don't have these purported powers - all they can do is ask God to help you. Saints, on the other hand, have the power to perform miracles and when you pray to them for their help, you do so knowing that there is a possibility, as recognized by the Catholic church, that they themselves can help you by performing a miracle on your behalf, no matter how small. So no, it's not like asking your friends to pray for you. It's more like trying to get better odds by hoping that, if God doesn't answer your prayers, maybe the saint will.

I agree with V... If it's this easy to get this far on the road to sainthood anyone can be a saint.

ivanho ... there you go using logic again. That's a very dangerous thing because if everyone followed your lead, organized religion would go out of business.

CS-2019240

There are no snakes in Ireland to this day; if one is taken there it dies.

Are you seriously going to spout that bunk?
Look... here's a link to a reptile shop in Belfast Ireland where you can buy (gasp!) a snake.

http://www.furless-friends.co.uk/

The reason there were never indigenous snakes in Ireland had to do with geography and climate, not miracles... the reason St. Patrick got credit for "driving the snakes out of Ireland" was because...

Most scholars agree that snakes symbolize paganism, which St. Patrick is also credited for banishing from Ireland. Snakes as symbols of evil are prevalent throughout Judeo-Christian mythology, most notoriously in the Garden of Eden as a tempter of Eve.

So.... Right now, you should be asking yourself....

"Hmmmnn... self... if I was so quick to take the word SNAKE literally, and falsely believe an act had been commited where a man magically rid an entire country of a particular species of reptile... then MAYBE I should question some of my other beliefs, where I may have taken a word LITERALLY, that was meant to be METAPHORICAL... and has led me to falsely believe in something untrue... and to chalk up my belief in it's farfetched-ness to my super duper strong faith..."

Res Ipsa Loquitor.

Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.

Hmmm the pedo priests must have missed this one...

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).

I will not bow to them.

You need to watch EWTN -- especially those of you who don't know anything about the Catholic Church, but think you do!! Just reading some of the comments on this site is appalling! Thank God the Catholic Church has been around since the 1st Century teaching good values, and actually educating people. I've been around those "love" mentalities who go to those liberal churches who give lip service to loving everybody. It's a cover up for their feel-good self-centered mentality, and what they call love is usually nothing more than mere lust!! You don't know what real love is until you are a true Christian. You've been hypnotized by the cheap Hollywood kind of "Love." That's why our society has gone to pot, with lowered moral standards, and so many miserable looking young people!! They've bought into a lie!

Scuromondo

You seem to be missing the point of "intercession". Asking a saint to intercede means asking the saint to pray to God.

But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Jen R, where did you get the impression that saints have the "power" to perform miracles? The miracles are performed by God.

commonsense:

Yes, that is exactly what I thought the Roman Catholic position was on prayer. However, the fact that apparently the RC Church attributes a miracle to JP2's intercession after an ill nun prayed to him, has given me serious pause to reconsider whether the RC Church's stated position on prayer is aligned with their actual view of it.

Wow, Lena, you even go so far as to discredit/devalue/diminish the love "other people" feel -- because they don't share your silly cultism.

Man o man, your hatred knows no bounds... ugh, the things you goddam catholics say, and the superiority complex you all have about yourselves. Unbelievable.

reported as inflammatory. Your comment about "hate" is ironic in light of your hateful, bigoted post.

Lena-2927877

Just reading some of the comments on this site is appalling!

Indeed, yes... ESPECIALLY YOURS!

Thank God the Catholic Church has been around since the 1st Century teaching good values, and actually educating people.

Someone needs a history lesson in what the Church was ACTUALLY up to for the last several centuries... Murder... Genocide on truly insane levels... forced conversion by torture... destruction of irreplaceable archeological wonders... destruction of myriad cultures deemed to be heathan... complicity in the holocaust... condoned abuse and rape of small children, numbering in the hundreds of thousands (if not more) over hundreds of years... etc...

You don't know what real love is until you are a true Christian.

Wow... I mean, just... wow.... your arrogant, condescending dismissal of love in the hearts of others, is in COMPLETE OPPOSITION with the message and ideals of the man you claim to worship as your messiah... logically then, you must therefore be the anti-christ.

You've been hypnotized by the cheap Hollywood kind of "Love."

YOU'VE been hypnotized by the cheap, shallow, judgemental kind of religion.

They've bought into a lie!

You see the speck in my eye, but not the log in your own.

You have bought into the greatest lie ever told... and you keep paying into it with your "contributions" to the church.... Hey the pedophiles gotta eat, right?

V... . and it seems you need a history lesson in what men did claiming backing by the "church" that we totally against the teachings of scripture.

TruettCollins

V... . and it seems you need a history lesson in what men did claiming backing by the "church" that we totally against the teachings of scripture.

Well that was my whole point wasn't it?
The church has run counter to it's own teachings...
And continues to do so....

I don't need a history lesson,
I need the church to make a confession, an apology, and then disband itself, giving all it's wealth (which is in the high billions) to the poor... as Jesus (according to scripture) told them to.

My reply was aimed at Lena-2927877 who said....

Thank God the Catholic Church has been around since the 1st Century teaching good values, and actually educating people.

She was praising the church itself, not scripture...

And as far as scripture goes, (in my opinion), keep the sermon on the mount, and discard the rest.... that's all you really need...

Whatever, he was the moral leader of the Catholic church while 1000's of children were being raped.

hey Asslick, i have a bridge i'd like to sell you...

The Catholic church has been morally bankrupt for centuries. We'd probably have faster-than-light travel by now if the Church hadn't had the habit of stifling scientific research for the past 2000 years.

Wow Phyllis, are you really resorting to name calling? Put down your crayons and when you're done with recess maybe you can come back and come up with something a little better.

I see Phyllis has resorted to foul language. Tells you what her real colors are but we are supposed to respect her because she was a cop. Interesting, after so many brutal arrests, rapes, and murders should we condemn all cops? Of course not but that is the wasy Phyillis thinks. She does not wrong. Maybe we should make her a saint.

How about instead of getting bent out of shape by her, just ignore her. You do not have to read it if you don't like it.

I don't care for name calling, but I am not going to fan the flames. That would make me no better, would it? Food for thought.

When the second word of her post is "asslick" it's kind of hard to ignore. I'm not bent out of shape by it. I actually moved on quite nicely. I will read a post and if I disagree with it I will say something. This is a message board. That's what you do.

I will not bow to them.

I guess you guys didn't realize the person with whom she was responding goes by the name of 'AssLick'.

wow... Good going guys!!!

Assick. There's a difference.

That's what I thought. You know, October, all the souls trapped in purgatory begged to go to heaven, before All Saint's Day..November first. Halloween, 'All Hallows Eve', you know.

In training for sure!

The bible teaches that we only have enough influence (contact) with Christ to get our self forgiveness and not at a group rate

I will not bow to them.

Rumblenut,

I'v been scrolling through the comments and have noticed that you don't plan on bowing to them.

Nobody gives a @!$%# what you think.

Yeah they do. i wont bow to the pedophile cult either. a lot of people wont. only those who support the pedophile cult will bow to them. and they suck, too.

Now, damnit, I'm going to light a candle under a statue, and pray for you.

I don't want to write a novel, so you're getting the super short version... You can pray to whomever you want and ask for their help, guidance, and even their own prayers in heaven. The idea is that praying to a saint, a former Pope, or whoever, will act as a sort of diplomat on your behalf, seeking some divine intervention from God. It only becomes a false idol situation when one begins treating the Pope, or what have you, as God. I'm thinking of the cuff and I have no evidence to support this, but the concept probably came from a need to better market the religion to pagans and the likes. They prayed to multiple Gods who favored them. Now they get to pray to multiple saints, disciples, prophets, dead relatives, and whomever else.

What ever happen to "No one comes to me except through the son"?

thank you, I can use all the prayers I can get. I also accept cash donations.

Oh come on Tired-Of it, you're taking all the fun out of all this. You know how busy God is, with that great big universe to run, He can't be bothered by just anybody's prayers.

Tired, you are completely correct in your comments. Unfortunately, the RCS (and others) insist that Peter was the first Pope, that he was given the charge to make changes as he saw fit (paraphrasing... whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven...) and, therefore, the current Pope through his appointment down through the ages by preceding Popes can do whatever he wants to.

I'm just glad that I know the difference between men and Jesus. The Catholics obviously get that confused. Like when their priests perform absolution. What a crock of hooey!!!

all cults, especially the catholic cult, can jsutify why they dont follow the words of their cult book, BuyBull...

Most Christians don't even read the BuyBull. they just memorize a few passages from Leviticus so that they can slam gays.

C'mon, guys. I'm a former Catholic and have tons of problems with the church (hence the former) but we can be critical of the church without mocking or inflaming remarks like "cult." There are lots and lots of good people in the Catholic Church and to associate some of them with the more extreme fringes does not further any one's argument. All it doesn't is put them on the defensive and make them dig in even harder. That's not a good strategy for having people understand your point of view.

It's okay to challenge people on their beliefs but do so with respect. Like I stated in a previous post, I didn't understand the whole "saints" thing and I laid our my argument as to why but I didn't make fun of anyone for believing it. I'd love if someone would counter my view point. That's what leads to mutual understanding. If they have a good enough argument, I might even change my mind.

So yeah, question, challenge, make your case but please, remain in control and don't condescend like you have all the answers. Because we don't. Lord knows I certainly don't. No one really knows what awaits us when we shuffle off this mortal coil. Even atheists. A lot think they know, but until they're there, they can't guarantee anything better than you or I can.

Alrighty? Cool. Now play nice, folks. :)

Y'know what's funny? I got yelled at by a Catholic relative of mine (who shall remain nameless) for reading the Bible because it led me away from Catholicism and down the "heathen" Protestant path.

Oh, and reading the Bible hasn't diminished my support for gay marriage one iota. I just hope those who use Leviticus to justify that position don't wear any polyester/cotton blends while eating lobster dinners. After all, Leviticus says they're an abomination to God, too.

dont worry about such ammusing stuffs. As long they dont issue fatwahs and murder innocents and hang women to please their so called prophets, it is ok....

Scotty, just FYI, they prayed to him after he died. Catholics believe that if you are in Heaven (which presumably is where a nun would think John Paul is) God will have compassion for you and may have mercy on others for your sake. That's why Catholics pray to all the saints and to Mary, not because saints are supposed to have any power themselves, but because they can intercede on your behalf with God. So they do not think John Paul is god-like himself, (idolatry), but that his pureness makes him closer to the one God.

In "praying to" someone (a saint or someone who has died), we merely ask the intercessions of that person to take our prayers directly to God. This is exactly the same as someone asking a living person to pray for them. It is clearly not idolatry. I suggest a wonderful booklet called "A Minute in the Church" (Amazon) by Gus Lloyd to perhaps help you understand a little more clearly as to what Catholics really believe and how it relates to Scripture.

Praying to a Saint to intercede for you to God is not idolatry. Many Catholic people will pray asking the Saints to help them. They are not praying to the Saint in place of God, they are using the Saints as a spring board to God. They could pray to God also, because God knows our prayers. People just want to get all the help they can.

That is one of the reasons that we need to read the Bible for ourselves. Much of Roman Catholicism has no Biblical basis. There is also the danger of following a nut like Jim Jones and ending up dead.

Catholics pray to saints meaning we communicate with them asking for their intercession. They have no power to heal or help us but we ask them to intercede to the Father for us. If you remember, Jesus performed his first miracle at the intercession of his mother when he turned the water into wine at Cana. We honor saints and have reverence for them, but we do not adore them. Adoration is reserved for God alone.

The idea is that praying to a saint, a former Pope, or whoever, will act as a sort of diplomat on your behalf, seeking some divine intervention from God.

If God is all-knowing, then he is already aware of your request and its worthiness. Why do you need to enlist a lobbyist to present your case?

Actually the idea of praying to whomever you want is not biblical. You should only pray to God through the Holy Spirit and Jesus. There is nothing biblical about saints, sainthood, praying to Mary or any other person. One of the reasons I am no longer Catholic...Too many discrepancies in regards to scripture and what is done.

Oh and warhammer - in the spirit of playing nice there are other places that you can read where God clearly speaks of gay relations and His disapproval of it. You can read the new testament and see that gay relations are not acceptable. Not only was Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed for the sin that Lord could no longer stand, but in the new testament it speaks of men's unnatural affections with men and women's unnatural affections with women.

In a society where we want to allow everyone to be happy and satisfied with the life and beliefs that they choose that does not negate the fact that if you are a believer in the Bible you can't get around the fact that God see homosexuality as a sin of the flesh.

Getting back to the topic at hand, one needs to pray only to God, through the Holy Spirit, to Jesus who is our one and only intercessor. Prays to saints, Mary of anyone else is not biblical.

They don"t pray to Pope John 11 they pray to ask for his intercession kinda like we use a lawyer to plead our case to a judge. We all know that God is the one who answers our prayers, but why not ask someone who knows him in a more spiritually way by his dedication for help?

Catholics do not worship the pope, saints, or even Mary. Catholics just pray to those people to intercede for them. It's like they're God's messengers that each have a specialty that aids him in helping us. Also, they are a way for Catholics to feel closer to the Lord because saints were actual people on Earth that have shown us all that it is possible to walk in the light of the Lord all your life.

um no idiot

he is not worshiped

he is just honored and if you

honor him enough theres your miracle

get your facts straight bfore you talk

Probably because Catholicism is wrong. There is not supposed to be any person representing God and no one is supposed to go by the title "Father" either. It's also idolatry to pray to ANYone except God, The Most High, in the name of Jesus Christ.period. We are to worship in TRUTH and SPIRIT only. It's not about religions of any kind. It's supposed to be about 1 human being having a personal relationship with God in truth and spirit.

I have to agree. God said "you shall have no other gods before me" and to not make an idol of anything. I don't see how praying to a saint can help you. I don't know of anything in the Bible that directs us to pray to saints. We are told to bring our requests to God with thanksgiving so I totally disagree with the whole praying to saints or anyone else. I don't know where the Catholic church comes up with these types of things. That's one of the reasons why I call myself a "recovering Catholic".

Barry: The Catholic practice of praying to saints is probably an idea imported from Voodoo. In Voodoo, there are various "helper spirits" called Loas and Orishas that intercede between humanity and deity.

If you don't understand it, why are you even commenting on it? Keep reading Cindi Lilly's, PPowell, and Beverly-532033's posts until you understand them. It's an easy explanation, if you're not so negative and closed minded. You don't have to believe it, just don't trash it without knowing what you're talking about. Who the heck are you to judge someone's religion anyway. Judge not lest ye be judged....and that IS Biblical.

The Catholic's have never been a righteous religion.,, look at their history"The Catholic Crusades" killing innocent christians in the name of God.They are the false religion and everything they practice even to this day is unorthodox and Perversed.

Good observation but no one prays to the Pope. First, his life of virtues is set as an example for others to copy just as he followed the footsteps of Christ. St Paul even says we should copy him too. Again if he had lived virtuously and now crowned with glory in God's presence the church asks him to remember his brethren just as he always did on on earth, and even more now he sees God face to face. Innocent Amasiorah. New York, USA.

In Catholicism, you don't pray to people. The article didn't get that right. You only pray to one God. That is the only thing you pray to. It is called Intercession when you ask for someone in heaven to pray for you.

The bible directs us to ask those in heave to pray for us in Psalms 103. For more examples of the bible directing this type of prayer look at this website www.catholic.com/library/Intercession_of _the_Saints.asp



you pray to him to carry your prays to the LOrd. You are not

adoring him but asking for his help...

Let me try to explain this to you - one more time as I've explained it to countless people ever since I can remember. We pray to or ask a Saint to intercede for us to God. We revere saints just as we do other good people (i.e. our mothers, fathers, grannies, etc), we worship God! Why do we ask saints to intercede for us? I think it tradition. As Catholics, we are cerntainly not required to do so. Have you ever been having a particularly tough day with the kids and tought, help me mom deal with this, or Granny, help me know how to deal with this? Were you guilty at that moment of worshiping your mother or granny? Of course not.

Now, the "whole thing with the Pope" is that as Catholics, we believe he is the successor to Peter - Peter the Apostle (actually the lineage is well documented). Now, you can lead a horse to water (we can show you the documentation) but you can't make him drink (do you have to believe it? No. Do I care if you believe it No). All I ask is that you be respectful of my beliefs and I'll be respectful of yous. Compromise and tolerance are not dirty words.

In any religion (and politicakl system, as well)it is not about understanding it - it is about blindly following it. Vatican does not care if something is right or wrong, true or false. If they say it is the way it is one has to obey or one will be expelled, excommunicated... (or put whatever word yo want here). You either wit them or agains them. No ifs, whats, or buts. Blindly OBEY!

I will not bow to them.

i also agree. i believe these nuns are headed straight to hell. the bible clearly forbids this.

I agree with you, they should need GOD first. Thou shall have no other gods before me.. I guess they skipped that part. Yes The Pope did good things but we need to prey to GOD not man. We die but GOD is always alive.

I think I could clear a little of this up by saying Catholics pray THROUGH saints. We don't necessarily pray TO them. Personally I think Pope John Paul gave a lot of people hope where they may have had none in their lives.

For all of you non believers who tend to bash those who do believe, what is the harm in beliving? If it makes someone a better person, a more giving person, or gives someone hope, then why is it such a bad thing to you?

Personally I think there is a lot in common with a generally good person who may not believe, and a good Christian. We want the same things. Peace, love, and good will.

Reply to comment #8, to clarify:"praying to the Pope" .Catholics might ask for the intercession of someone who has found favor with the Deity (demonstrated by having lived an authentically Christian life), the process of declaring someone a Saint merely formalizes this recognition. The office of the Pope was begun by Jesus when he called St.Peter "the rock upon which He would build His Church." This is called Apostolic Succession. Thank You for your interest!

For the simplistic fanatic, you might want to educate yourself before spouting what your mamma taught you...

Traditional Church teaching falsely misuses the Bible to judge the homosexual lifestyle. True Biblical theology begins not with Church tradition and dogma but with the biblical texts themselves. Biblical theology seeks to understand how the biblical authors expressed themselves in the Koine Greek of the time (not expanded by later modern greek meanings), in terms of their culture. Only with this understanding is it legitimate to define biblical sexual ethics of the NT and find implications for today.

There is little said in the bible about homosexuality because it was no big deal! It occupied a prominent and respected position in most Greek and Roman cities at all levels of society and among a substantial part of the population. There are only 4 scriptures that are taken to say anything about homosexuality; the Leviticus laws, I Cor 6:9, Romans 1:26-27, and the story of Sodom and Gomorrah - and none address loving, consenting homosexual acts as we know them today.

There are over 600 individual "laws" in the Levitical code, the breaking of anyone of which would make the sinner unclean and unacceptable to God. It is an abomination to eat pork, etc. The law is no longer in effect and its purpose was to show that man could never follow it. The sins of Sodom and Gomorrah, likewise have nothing to do with homosexuality.

I Cor 6:9, no way refers to homosexuality. The original Greek word often quoted as sexual immorality, Paul used was "porneia" which means "a harlot for hire". In Corinth in the temples of Venus, the principal deity of Corinth, where Christians went to worship, a thousand public prostitutes were kept at public expense to glorify and act as surrogates for the fertility Gods. This sex with the pagan Gods is what Paul was talking about - fornication is an admitted mistranslation and has nothing to do with gays or singles sex. This rendering reflected the bias of the translators rather than an accurate translation of Paul's words to a culture of 2000 years ago worshipping pagan sex gods.

Romans 1:26-27 mentions homosexual acts performed by people who are clearly described as heterosexual. The men in the NT patriarchal culture exerted dominance not only over women, but over younger males as well. The nature of homosexual acts in the Bible are so very different from what we know as homosexuality today that the passages have no application to today's homosexuality. Such practices as in NT times simply no longer exist. Alleged references to homosexuality in I Corinthians and I Timothy are the inventions of anti-gay translators. They are not in the original Greek texts.

I know, Donna-1667201. I'm familiar with Genesis 19 and Romans I and II. In both instances, homosexuality is NOT the abomination. It's the violence, lust and lack of love associated with those homosexual acts. In Genesis, the men of Sodom want to rape the angels, to disrespect and humiliate them. That's the sin: the violence, the hate.

In Romans I, Paul states the men and women have allowed sex to become their god. They worship lust before God. That takes natural love and turns it into something unnatural. Again, it's the lack of love God abhors.

Paul does, however, describe men as naturally preferring women. For men whose natural preference is for women, to have sex with a man would violate this, which, y'know, makes the case for pederasty. Here's the kicker, though: it says these men must "katergazomai" the act of sex with other man. In Greek, that means a whole lot of extreme energy is required to accomplish the deed. That sounds an awful lot like rape. And that's what heterosexual males would do to degrade those captured in battle, a pretty common practice under pederasty. See? All about lust, rape, violence, hate, LACK OF LOVE.

That would surely not be the case for two homosexuals in a loving, caring relationship; especially two committed enough to take vows of marriage. I would, however, go so far as to state that a heterosexual man and woman engaging in the act of sex out of lust rather than love would be more abominable to God than two homosexuals who have intercourse founded out of deep love and affection for one another.

On more thing to chew on. I spoke of Romans II earlier. It's important to always note Romans II when using Romans I to speak out against homosexuality. In this letter, he is concerned with trying to bridge the gaps between Jewish Christians and Greek Christians who were judging each other and putting each other down.

Paul starts by talking about those "awful pagans" -- a group which both Jew and Greek Christians felt superior to. He gives a laundry list of "sins" and the Christians are probably going "yeh, yeh, those bad people, we are better". Then, after having caught them in their judgementalism, he says "by judging, you pass judgment on yourself." By using a pagan example of sins, he could then go on to say, in effect-GOTCHA! Do not judge! He said, "God shows no partiality" (2:11).

See? By using Romans I to condemn homosexuals, or even lust filled sinners, you are condemning yourself. You and I are sinners, and as such no better than anyone else and you and I both know that. So, if they are in a loving relationship, whether gay or straight, we should support that love. If they are acting strictly out of lust, putting sex before God, let them to their own devices so long as it is consensual and no one is getting hurt. God will judge them in His own good time.

Ah, JohnsMopar, ya beat me to an explanation.

As a matter of fact, I think you did a better job than I did.

Good job!

As Catholics we are taught that we have the saints in heaven that constantly intercede for us, including holy men and women who have yet to be recognized as such. That is why we pray for the Blessed Mother to intercede for us. We ask them to pray to God for us. We do not pray to worship the saints. Did you ever hear of the gospel account of the wedding at Cana? The wine steward, knowing who Jesus was and what he was capable of, made him aware of the fact that they had run out of wine, to which Jesus basically replied, how is this my concern? So Mary, his mother, piped up and asked him to do it, and then she said to the steward, "Do whatever he tells you". Jesus THEN asked for the wine crocks to be filled with water and blessed them hence, performing his first public miracle (turning water into wine) at the Blessed Mother's request or INTERCESSION.

What child hasn't turned to Mommy for something they want after Daddy hasn't delivered and Mommy coaxes Daddy into seeing the light? The saints are all there for us at all times with the angels in heaven constantly glorifying God and prayiing for us here on Earth. What have we got to lose? If I'm some "crazy religious nutbar" and I'm wrong, at least I've gone through life with this hope which lights my life in even the darkest of times. Prayer works, intercessory prayer through the saints works so it only makes sense that prayer through one of the most holy people who walked the Earth (Pope John Paul II) would work and that is what will allow him to be raised to the ranks of the recognized saints in our day.

Oh, puleeze, the Bible clearly condemns homosexuality. In fact that prohibition is one of the 7 "Noahide" laws that he Jews expected even gentiles to observe, if they were civilized human beings. Sexuality exists on a continuum--few people are really exclusively one way or the other. The vast majority of us could be either if we chose. I can remember when half the women on campus were so-called "political lesbians" in the early 70s. It meant you were not necessarily inclined that way, but you became a lesbian because it was supposedly going to enhance the cause of feminism by doing so. I did it myself, and believed myself to be "in love" with another woman. When bisexuality was widely accepted, as in ancient Greece or Rome, a huge number of people were doing it. Julius Caesar was called "every woman's husband and every man's wife." It was NOT a compliment.

Then don't ask anybody to pray for you, because you are in essence praying to them. I would much rather have someone like the Pope intercede for me than asking someone I happen to know. They might not be a saint, and if you read the bible, you know that God/Jesus hears the prayers of the saints. As was the custom centuries ago, when subjects wanted something from the King, they went to those closest to the King (usually his mother) to ask (pray) for something. I'd rather ask someone who is most likely very close to Jesus than to ask a friend of mine to pray for me, even though I still do.

OomYaaqub

Oh, puleeze, the Bible clearly condemns homosexuality

I suppose it depends on how ya look at it. Did you read what JohnsMopar and I wrote in 8.36 and 8.37?

One other thing. I touched upon earlier about the condemning of homosexuality in Leviticus and kinda pointed toward the hypocracy around blended fabrics and shellfish and whatnot. Some came out to cite other references in the Bible against homosexuality (which again, JohnsMopar and I refute), but no one has yet to come forward to expalin why a vast majority of us have deemed violations of many of the 600 Levitical laws as a-okay, like the shellfish, but the not homosexual stuff. Why do the lobster and shrimp get a pass but the gay couple doesn't?

Tired,

asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

MartyS, you should not presume to speak about Catholicism when you know so little about it. Jesus named Peter the foundation on which he built His Church, not so that changes could be made whimsically, but so that changes would NOT be made.

Have you never prayed on behalf of someone else? How selfish of you if you have not! Asking others to pray for us is not idolatry, it is a recognition of the power of prayer.

Christians are baptized into the three-fold ministry of Christ, which is the offices of priest, prophet, and king. It is our priestly ministry that requires us to intercede on behalf of others (such as protecting the weak, the orphan, the widow, the alien when others seek to abuse them). Since we require it of ourselves, are we wrong to ask it of the saints?

Donna: As one, along with many others, who use the Bible to judge others, where is your proof it is the word of God and not some human tribal leader?

ok, I think I understand it a little better now, the nun prayed through the Pope, so God would hear her prayer

as a christian I am told God hears ALL prayers, not just the prayers of a choosen few

also since God performed the miracle of curing the nun way does the former Pope get/deserve the credit.

I want to thank those of you who explained the process, as I said, I now have a better understanding of it, I still don't "get" it but..well I've already been over that.

For the record, I was not attempting to bash Catholicism, I just don't understand it, but then I don't really get any religious dogma (Baptist, Mormon, this one that one etc.)

I am a christian and attempt to live as Christ would want me to live (being kind, helping others, loving and accepting folks who are different, etc.) I fall way short.

Humans invented religion so they ( the Pope, John Wesley, Joseph Smith, Jr., insert other religious leaders name) could control others. I get enough of that from the Government.

also since God performed the miracle of curing the nun, why does the former Pope get/deserve the credit.

This is what I meant to say.

Good observation but no one prays to the Pope

Hey dummy -- par tof this article is about the pope moving closer to sainthood, because a nun claims she prayed to the dead pope and he healed her. jesus h titty-nipple christ! read!

I will not bow to them.

Maybe the archaic beliefs are better. I doubt society then was in as big a mess as it is now!

I will not bow to them.

You are sure wasting a lot of time saying that over and over.

I will not bow to them.

It's not for God. It's for us. Saints are saints whether they are canonized or not, but when we know they are saints, then we can ask them to intercede for us, just as we ask our friends to pray for us. Wouldn't it be better to ask someone closer to God?

Heralding a saint, a hero, a role model, a great thinker, a good law, or a good idea does not prevent one from helping living humans. Rather, holding saints as positive examples encourages the beholder to help living humans.

If you are not Catholic, how do the actions of our Church concern you? Were there crimes committed? Yes. By Priests? Yes. Did the Church hide these facts? I do believe so, but at what level? There is no proof that John Paul II had direct knowledge of any crime.

The Church is a huge bureaucracy; to what level did this information reach? None of us here can truthfully say, can you? You can speculate but you cannot offer viable and/or physical proof of his guilt in the matter. That would mean that he has just as much right to be considered innocent as you or I.

I am a cradle Catholic. I strayed in my late teens and twenties, partied on but I came back. I'm more than willing to admit to any of my faults. I do have quite a few.

Pope John Paul was a good man. To that I have no doubts. Unfortunately, I do not believe he could ever, or should ever attain Sainthood. That is NOT demeaning his character in any way. In my opinion, he does not meet those criteria. But if I had to stand before God, when that time comes, I would hope that I could bring half of the G O O D deeds to the table that man was responsible for. I never met John Paul while he was with us but (and some of you sick bastards will spin this too) I saw that man light up in the presence of children (in a grandfatherly way) in a display of honest, heart on the sleeve love that just radiated! Even in his final years when his body was failing, looking exhausted, head bent with age at televised mass. When the children came to that altar, he came alive. That shows me his heart, his love for us all.

Did he have direct knowledge of sexual abuse committed by Priests of our Church? That is not for me to judge. If I’m not mistaken, even amongst Christians he would have the right to defend himself (yes, it’s too late for that now) and in our U.S. courts the right to be considered innocent. Those who are without sin, pick it up… pick up the stone (figuratively).

This article concerns beatification of a MAN, who was elected to be the Pope. It is a Catholic issue, not a world or “Christian” issue. We all know what opinions are like… we all have em’ and at some point can be one! Do not disparage a good man’s character because you don’t agree with the dogma of another religious belief. We are not here to judge the “alleged” crimes or oversights of this good man.

If you believe in God, then you already know that John Paul will have to stand before Him and nothing will be hidden. Again, my opinion but, I think he will do a lot better than many of us here.

If you don’t believe in God, that is your choice also, you have that inalienable right as a U.S. Citizen. But don’t demean the religious choice of some us that do believe. You either don’t or won’t try to understand. And that’s okay you don’t have to. But to spew words of hatred for a man you’ve never known and the religious rites and beliefs of your fellow man only perpetuates the attitudes of religious persecution that has given many who don’t believe a pretty good reason to doubt.

The Catholic Church may not be perfect, just as those Catholics amongst us are not perfect. But it is who we choose to be, that is our right. I served this country for 30 years of military service to help us maintain these unalienable rights. You have the right to be who you wish to be. Don’t confuse these rights with the right to slander a man or the religious belief of another. That is just as much against the law as pedophilia.

Which would cause the invocation of the Miranda warning… You have the right to remain silent. If you can’t offer commentary that doesn’t slander or impugn ones religious belief, then please use it.

I will not bow to them.

we all must question the Church's past and exactly how truthful, genuine, and honorable it truly is

Nothing wrong with that. If you give the Catholic Church a fair examination, you will find a human institution, not perfection. But if you are honest, you will also find a community that has done far more good than bad, and has made the world a much better place by building up the Kingdom of God here on earth.

It is not the "mentality" of the Catholic Church, whether Roman or Bostonian, to raise people with "glaring flaws". There is no part of Catholic teaching that allows one person, much less a priest, to victimize another. There are over one billion Catholics in the world. They are all human, and all, including the Pope, have human foibles.

Was Abraham Lincoln a great President? Were people enslaved and were crimes committed by Americans during his Presidency?

But if you are honest, you will also find a community that has done far more good than bad,

Actually, IF YOU ARE HONEST, you will find far more bad than good. The tens of thousands of children who have been repeatedly butt-raped, molested and abused are ALONE too high a price tag for any amount of good which that disgusting cult has done. And I dont even need to go into the LONG LIST through history of all the evil and foulness that church has caused...

I will not bow to them.

That is true, wag. It is true of the capital S Saints that everyone hears about, and it is true of the small s saints, who anonymously make the world a better place to live in day by day.

Well said.

RumbleNut, a real saint, as I describe, would not wish to be bowed to.

then why do so many catholic low-lifes so it, while kissing that bastard's ring? every pope sure seems to have no problem with the amount of bowing that people give him...

I will not bow to them.

Actually probably more people than you realize care.

well, catholic girl, there's no accounting for the stupidity of mindless followers...

Ya know phyllis, you don't know me, and just to fill you in, I am NOT stupid, I have a couple of degrees, one is actually in Sociology, so as you may or may not know, I have studied many groups of people, many religions, and reasons why people do the things they do. I am not a mindless follower, I have drawn my own conclusions for the things I believe. Your countless attacks on Catholics is like blaming all Germans for the actions of the Nazis, or blaming all white people for the actions of slave owners. You are generalizing and stereo-typing. And yes that is my professional opinion...

Your countless attacks on Catholics is like blaming all Germans for the actions of the Nazis, or blaming all white people for the actions of slave owners.

No, it really isn't. BUT -- for example -- I'd blame all the whites who supported the slave-owners as much as I'd blame the slave owners. THAT is an accurate description of the catholic pedophile cult, and the people who send it money to keep the foul, child-raping machine running.

Cheers!

You may be believe yourself to be a practicing Catholic, but I would venture to guess, you are a "cafeteria" style Catholic. You pick and choose what appeals to you, and disregard what may be too difficult to live. As Catholics we expect to be persecuted, just as Jesus was. He never promised us anything more, or anything different. We do not worship statues, or pray to dead people. Our statues and picutres of the Holy departed are icons, that can help us reach out and remember, much as the photos of your loved ones that you carry around. Why do people choose to focus only on the negative, and not the great work that has been accomplished by the Church through its founder, Jesus Christ. God grant all of you that are so influenced by baal/satan, the grace to see and know Love, and not be so ready to slander and spew hate.

Lisa

Lisa, you have to agree with the RCC because if you don't the RCC will tell you that you are a sinner. If you really read your Bible (not the one with Coptic books in it or RCC-editorialized books), you would find that the pattern of Christ Himself was to point everyone to the Father in Heaven. He led by example. He prayed to God for His daily bread. Likewise, only those who come to Him (not to the Pope or a priest) will see the Father. Furthermore, remember when the angle said not to bown down to him (the angle) because no one was worthy of being worshipped except the Lord? And finally, that there is no absolution for sins except through Jesus Christ directly (no need whatsoever for a man to be between Christ and anyone).

I was married for 21 years to a practicing Catholic and had many, many discussions with priests and on up the chain. At the end of all discussions about points like those that I am raising, the church leaders ALWAYS referred to the RCC as the final authority on making and interpreting what is or isn't to be done - even if it has no basis whatsoever in scripture.

My prayer is that you don't just hide behind the line of Catholics before you believe whatever rolls off of that rich, pompus, walled compound known as the Vatican. If you have ever visited that mecca, you should realise how far away from the humble and direct teachings of Christ that the RCC - and all of its man-made glory - really is.

Lisa

It looks like Blessed it not Catholic enough for your taste. When you pray to a dead saint for intercession on your behalf you are in effect elevating that dead saint to something beyond man..a mini god..someone closer to god than you? When did god design this political body that is called the Catholic church?

As Catholics we expect to be persecuted, just as Jesus was.

Oh, whatever Lisa. You religious nutters are all the same, jsut different robes nad hats from cult to cult. Although, I must say, you catholic cultists did a bang-up job with the child rape thing. (pun intended).

Oh get a life Phyllis!

I will not bow to them.

MartyS, what you don't know about the Catholic Church would sink a ship! Nothing of what you say resonates with the truth. You don't seem to know much about the Bible, either.

In estrangement one seeks pretexts: with all persistence he picks a quarrel. The fool takes no delight in understanding, but rather in displaying what he thinks.

Proverbs 18:1-2

already have one, cindy, and it doesn't involve bowing to and kissing the rings of egotistical low-life pedophiles.

cheers!

Haha yes.

FUNNY!!

LOL!!! I needed a laugh.

Thanks, I needed that LOL

Ditka vs. The Pope?

Ditka.

Ditka vs. a pope named Ditka?

nice. could use some helathy running backs too. i hear he can run a 4.3 40.

.

Mike N, That's funny!!

I guess you think you are being funny, but to make fun of someones religion, I don't see the humor. I am proud to be a Catholic and I will say a prayer for you. u seem to need it.

hahahahahahahaha! For sure!

Your ignorance is showing, Mike.

now THAT'S funny

Well said!

I would tell you how to solve the abuses in the Church except I don't work for them. I certainly don't advocate abusing young boys or anyone else for that matter, but to speak as though he did not know what was going on in his ranks is ridiculous. You can't be the head of the priesthood that has such turmoil going on and not ackowledge your failures as their leader. Apparently religion works like the political spectrum, just ignore it, deny it, and it will go away.

Under no circumstances am I denying that JP2 was a person who wanted to help people and bring people together. However, when you have such an enormously important role in these scandals and yet have done nothing drastic to combat them aside from shifting priests around and settling out of court, it certainly shows me that you can not be considered anything more than you truly are, an ordinary human being.

Being a saint isn't about being a perfect person. Being a saint is about doing the best you could with your life. Yes, the pedophilia is terrible. It's monstrous. Should we however deny and ignore the good that was accomplished by a life and focus only on the shortcomings and failures? I earnestly hope that I am not judged in this life or the next by the wrong I may have done, or the good I failed to do. Yes, he wasn't perfect. Yes, he sinned. But that's the beauty of sainthood. None of the saints were perfect, they all had issues. (Augustine was a drunken womanizer.) But they overcame their shortcomings to accomplish great good in the world. In short the world was a tiny bit better because they were on earth. We are all called to be saints and we all have the potential to become a saint. It is a shame that that church only focuses on "Naming" the really popular ones.

GD? Perhaps you have found some ways to do so that you can share with us? With all that reading, there must be something? You are coming off a little as an apologist for the Catholic abuse of children. Just sayin'...

You are a dumb ass - just like the rest of you idiots who aggreed with him.

I will not bow to them.

OK, so the Bible clearly states in the New testament that anyone who confesses the name of Christ and is a believer, IS a saint. We do not need to elevate any human, while PJPII was a wonderful, kind man(I met him in '84) he is a human("For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"). We do not need to pray to anyone other than God the father, God the Son and the Holy Spirit. That's why Christ came and died for us, so that we would not have to be separated from Him by anything, not man, not a temple curtain or our own sin! Man has created a religion to elevate himself and take the focus off of God. Sad...

I would tell you how to solve the abuses in the Church...

Who's stopping you?

OH! So, the BuyBull clearly states...

Well, that settles it! LMFAO!!

The Bible, which this church is supposedly based upon, specifically says one is to pray only to God, with the New Testament making it very clear that no intermediary is needed.

As a former Catholic (Byzantine Catholic, to be exact), I never understood the whole "praying to saints" thing. God's omniscient. He (She) knows everything. God knows what your wants and your needs are. No need to ask. And certainly no need to ask anyone else to ask God for you. But over the years I've also come to accept that God is very hands off. God created us, gave us free will and then left us to our own devices. That's the only way I can rationalize why people suffer. Especially innocent people like children. We have free will. God would like us to live by the rules that He (She) laid out, but He (She) won't force us. I'm sure He (She) is disappointed when we do wrong, like any parent would be of their children, but He (She) still loves us. But I don't think God intercedes. Not directly anyway. I believe God will grant us such things as strength, courage, wisdom, compassion and forgiveness, but again, God knows what we need and there is no need to ask. There is, however, a need to thank. I thank God every night for my life and everything in it: the good things I enjoy, the bad things that make me wiser and stronger and everything in between.

I'll agree with you, though, that the Mass is a beautiful service if people actually pay attention and listen to what is said and sung. And a lot of Catholicism is horribly misunderstood by those who never bothered to learn anything about it. But I got fed up with all the pomp and circumstance: the gold chalice, the gold covered Bible, the fancy robes, stained glass, statues and iconography. It's beautiful and pretty, but ultimately unnecessary and could probably all be put to better use someplace other than church. Jesus said, "Sell all your possessions, give to the poor and come follow me." I think Jesus would be highly disappointed in all the valuable possessions (especially the Papal jewelry) that Catholics use in their worship to him and his Father. I also didn't like hearing sermon after sermon about the importance of attending church every Sunday and hardly hearing anything about feeding the hungry, comforting the sick or freeing the oppressed. I just found in too many instances the church got so hung up in the letter of the law that they often overlooked the spirit of the law.

So after discussing it with my priest (who told me I cannot call myself Catholic anyway since I unequivocally support gay marriage and stem cell research), I left for the United Church of Christ where I can be the hands and feet of Jesus. I do lots of mission work: food bank, Habitat for Humanity, Heifer International, etc. I don't evangelize. I don't try to convert people. I just do. I go with my fellow congregants and we put our time and talents toward helping those less fortunate than ourselves. If they ask why we do it, then I'll talk about religion. Otherwise, I keep my yap such, put my nose to the grindstone and try to follow God as best I can.

Peace to all here....even those who bash those that they don't know....

Wow Warhammer, a Christian who seems to be practicing Christianity.

"Non-catholics have no clue but miracles can happen in real life and they do"

Oh baloney. More cult babble and religious nuttery. You dont have a shred of proof of that. And whenever there exists an opportunity for a healing miracle that can be DOCUMENTED and PROVEN (there are more than enough soldiers in the Vets Hospital with missing legs, arme, missing eyes...) -- they NEVER work. It's only with the nebulous, nonsensical and unverifiable claims come these so-called miracles. Take your silly voodoo crap and shove it. Nobody's buyin what you're sellin other than your own cultist ilk.

Right on sheila! There are some real ignorant people on here that obviously know nothing about catholicism and our beliefs!

Wow Phyllis... using the argument that something doesn't exist because you can't prove it is not only terrible logic but just dumb. That circular logic would suggest that they do exist because you can't prove they don't? So I hope you feel better after getting out your little hissy fit about miracles because regardless of what you call them, things happen all the time that have no scientific or anthropologic explanation, it just so happens miracle is one of many terms from many different languages for this. It is not cult rhetoric so much as what one large group of people choose to attribute these instances to. Furthermore, there are documented "miracles" do your research before posting such assertions.

I am a practicing Catholic, and I owe the fullness of life to faith. Blessed were the lepers who had nothing, but faith in Him. Blessed was the Centurion whose faith helped heal his soldier. Faith does Heal. For with Mercy will the Lord look at those who Glorify His name.

I see doubt in the postings of most people on this Thread, "RCC blah-blah". I must say that The Church is indeed doing its very best for the betterment of Humanity. I know nothing in the World is Perfect(one exception though), and neither is the RCC. It has its flaws, which were seen in the past(The Crusades, Child molestation scandals, etc) and will inevitably be present in the future. But what does matter is that It is doing the best it can to correct these flaws. It may never reach perfection, but will definitely go a long way. The contribution of John Paul II to the RCC has been dramatic, to say the least. After all, at which other funeral is there a round of applause at the end of it. He indeed has made a difference to the World at large, and saying he doesn't deserve to be canonized would be underestimating his work.

With the Blood and Water that came when The sword was put through His flesh was born His Bride-The Catholic Church

May God Bless You All, and Peace.

I will not bow to them.

Actually, Rick-881466, there's a lot more of us out there than we let on. We try to adhere to Micah 6:8 and do what the Lord requires of us: to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with our God.

Wow Phyllis... using the argument that something doesn't exist because you can't prove it is not only terrible logic but just dumb.

Oh yeah. As opposed to the "really sound logic" that something is unprovable, unverifiable, mythical, and doesn't have a shred of evidence to support any of its claims -- like the other 3000+ current and past cults on this planet -- so, I'll believe [this one]. And most individual belief is based upon what society and family you were born into. (Not all, but most...)

Yeah...great argument, numbnutz.

We try to adhere to Micah 6:8 and do what the Lord requires of us: to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with our God...

...and send LOTS of money to the cult that has butt-raped and molested and abused tens of thousands of children...

Yeah. Great values.

No!

lol

Sorry, but hating a pedophile cult and its leaders and protectors is an acceptable form of hate.

grow up phyllis, what a disgusting overgeneralization and cheapening of something precious to so many people regardless of whether or not you believe in it... really mature.

So Phyllis, I'm just curious here. How are the services there at the Westboro Baptist Church? You've certainly mastered the hatred portion of the rhetoric.

I will not bow to them.

Phyllis, hate is never acceptable in any form, that is the difference between you and I.

Phyllis,

Should everyone hate cops because of what some of them do? You are a bigot against religion and the mentally ill.

And, i know you support your pedophile cult, Cg. While, conversely, I hate your pedophile cult.

I have no problem with that. Sorry, but I hate Nazi's too. And lo! The catholics supported them as well.

Yes, hon, you and I are definitely different. A difference I am proud of.

So many catholic cultists here haev tried to make teh exucse "oh, they're human and imperfect" as yoru defense for these child rapists and their protectors. But me, I'm bad because I hate them. LOL!!

By the way, don't call me hun...

If that word offends you, you might want to stay out of cities like Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and the entire South as well, because everyone calls everyone else Hun there.

Well, where I come from, unless you personally know the person, it is extremely disrespectful and rude.

When the catholic cult establishes a ZERO RATE of child rape -- I'll stop calling you "hon". How's that?

Because, personally, i think it's more disrespectful and rude for grown men to rape children inside your cult buildings, and then have the hierarchy protect them, than it is for someone to call you "hon". Don't you agree?

, where I come from, unless you personally know the person, it is extremely disrespectful and rude.

I understand, but since such a huge part of the country DOES use the word in a totally innocent sense, you might want to avoid attributing evil motives to people who do. I'm in my mid-50s, have lived all over the country, and although I don't use the word myself, being from Ohio originally, it never even occurred to me that anyone could find it offensive except the most humorless, uptight radical feminist. Women call each other and men "Hon" where I currently live; middle aged men say it to women, but not to each other.

I will not bow to them.

even dogs have politics.

absolutely right. well said, sheila.

Sheila - the politics of this religion, flowing from the extreme and obscene negative of decades of child abuse within the Church, calls for the naming of a saint at this time; a smooth move. This Pope knows that something really astounding has to happen to soothe the flock and raise the mood to elevate the Church above the current perception as a protectorate of pedophiles, beyond seeing the image of Mary in your morning eggs or the face of Jesus in the marbling on a side of beef. Pope Paul was no better than the current Pope in "rearranging" the abusers of children. No beatification or sainthood is appropriate here.

i will not bow to them.

Are you sure you were a catholic before? I think you allowed the mistakes of some people to make you a moral jugde and spiritual overseer despite the warnings of the Scripture through Saints Paul, James and others. Thus you fell even without knowing it. Don't forget that no one is perfect, not even you or I. Every sin is sin says 1John 5 and James says one does not need to break all laws to be a law breaker. In other words a sin is much enough to make one an offender, and all of us are guilty already as observed by Paul in Romans 5.

Can you truthfully say that John Paul had knowledge? That he was part of the conspiracy to hide facts and bury evidence? Granted, he was the "man-in-charge" and does bear responsibility from that view. But the Bishops are where the information began to disappear. Cardinals too? More than likely. But all you or I can do is speculate, does he deserve beatification? In my opinion no. Was he a good man? I truly think so.

The key point here is it is not up to you, me or any one else to decide. We all have to account for our lives before Him in the end. Again my opinion but, I think he'll do a lot better than most of us.

Wrong Sheila. Saying he allowed this is the same as saying Barack Obama allowed Giffords to be shot.

Again, my list of characteristics of a pedophile. Anyone you know fit this list?

1. Usually an adult male but some women also sexually abuse children
2. Often a child molestation victim themselves
3. Seeks out children of the age group they were when victimized
4. Usually married and hard-working
5. Employed within a wide range of occupations
6. Usually well-liked and respected community members
7. Often well-educated and regular church-goers
8. Relates better with children than adults
9. Some prefer boys, some prefer girls
10. Usually prefers a specific age group of children
11. Takes and collects photographs of victims while dressed, nude or in sexual poses
12. Collects child-adult pornography
13. Seeks to lower inhibitions of potential victims
14. Regularly attends children’s events in the community
15. Volunteers in youth organizations
16. Coaches children’s sports
17. Chaperones camping or overnight trips
18. Frequents video arcades, playgrounds or shopping malls
19. Offers babysitting services
20. Seeks jobs where children are easily accessible
21. Befriends parents, especially single mothers, to gain access to children
22. Participates in internet gaming with children
23. Joins social networking websites such as MySpace, Facebook, and other social media
24. Become foster parents
25. Seeks job opportunities where children are easily-accessible

Read more at Suite101: The Profile of A Pedophile: Identifying Characteristics and Behaviors of Child Molesters #ixzz1B2pHIwdz

No accountability, huh? That's the catholic way. No values, either...

God did do it. we pray to the saints and mary to ask them to pray for us.

God did do it. we pray to the saints and mary to ask them to pray for us.

Why can't you just pray to God?

I will not bow to them.

Can you annoying atheists...no i am sorry (the atheists are the ones who have actual sense and common courtesy) can you annoying anti-theists keep your lack of religion out of my religion....go do something useful like eat spaghetti and let people live...im pretty sure my belief in God is not going to make you spontaneously combust

Spontaneously combust? No.

Harm many people? Yes.

So, no -- people wont just simply ignore you.

I will not bow to them.