it also says turn the other cheek, not riot in the streets.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't one of the major tenants of Christianity to be as Christ like as possible. Didn't Jesus tolerate persecution in the name of his father? So by extention, shouldn't all Christians tolerate prosecution, after all, that is what religions do, persecute each other.

That is correct. We need to be as Christ like as possible. But not all religions persecute. People persecute and they use whatever means to justify it. Be it religion or science people will find a way to persecute eachother. But Christianity at it's heart does not persecute.

Correct Intelligent. Jesus said quite clearly "Return your sword to its place," when the apostle Peter used it in his defense. He also said, "He that takes up the sword will die by the sword".

These rioters are not Christlike. They are not Christian. They can only expect to be arrested for their behavior and worse.

Persecute or prosecute?

Christ never came against self defense. He once took an inventory of weapons carried by i desciples to make sure they had a sufficient number of swords before going into a dangerous area. It's true. The twelve desciples were armed! .

Oh and in addition... after saying those words, Jesus healed the man whom Peter wounded! Indeed, he healed his persecutor!

Shame people don't pay attention!

dnimerick: Jesus said, "Return your sword to its place". Swords were carried by Jews as a matter of custom. He brought the swords along so that he could teach them a lesson. Not because he encouraged violence. If anyone should be defended it was Jesus Christ himself! But Jesus refused to be defended with violence. After that, no Christian is ever mentioned in the Bible of using a sword.

We are ALL sinners..It would be very hard to stand by and let this continue without striking back...I have alway's been an eye for an eye kinda guy. But that is the old covenant, and in direct dispute with Christ's teachings. Muhammid, on the other hand, was a murderous wretch of a "man." One day this will all come to a head. When I get in a discussion with a muslim I generall y use the argument that Muhammid died in what...789 AD and is still dead, Christ, on the other hand died, was resurrected and resides at the right hand of GOD today...Now tell me, who has the power?

I agree that we go and kill muslims in Iraq , Afghanistan without impunity and fear and label it as collateral damage . I love the US helicopter attack footage in which our soldiers are killing these muslims who are unarmed and then going back to make sure they are dead . Later on ONe of them was identified as a Reuters muslim reporter . Its good that the ones who have come here do ask us to respect and not attack the churches here as some are doing in Egypt on their mosques .

Christians has been persecuted since early years of Christianity, from Romans who believed there was rising King in Israel which was untrue to nowadays when Muslims are the worst enemies along with other kind of liberal haters. Christian Religion never will die because like Jesus said , His Kingdom is not from this world. The best way to fight is continuing with the legacy of Jesus.

Yea, Yea. Whatever! Here's my take on it. Time and time again we see that Islam is not a religion, but a murderous and non tolerant way of life. Denominationally, I could care less what these people choose to believe in. My issue is the fact that the participants are comprised of barbarians with no respect for the sanctity of life if it differs from their's. In this story, we see that by its inaction the government of EQYPT has contributed to the persecution of Christians and SHOULD BE CHARGED WITH GENOCIDE by the World Court. And then there are the sorry-assed Moslems living in the United States and Europe who feign disdain for radical Islamism, but you sure don't see them marching & organizing to stop the killing by their ilk. The western world should accept the continuation of these murderous episodes as long as it believes that Islam is a religion.

jwhite, in the part of the Bible to which I refer Jesus ws clearly and plainly concerned that His disciples be able to defend themselves. And to correct you once again, Jesus DID NOT heal His persecutor! The man Peter wounded and Jesus healed was a servant.

christ said turn the other cheek he never said stand there and let them beat you to death

dnimerick

What was the servant doing there? Was it teatime?

Again, Jesus was not concerned with defending himself. He said, "Do you not know that I can call down twelve LEGIONS of angels? But it must occur this way."

If Jesus wanted to be violent, you bet he could have wiped ROME off the map.

If a Christian wants to defend himself, violence is strictly forbidden. Strike the other cheek was about not reacting to provocations. What the "Christians" in name only in Egypt are not following Christ by reacting to this provocation.

Jesus said, "Be cautious as serpents, INNOCENT as doves". By building churches illegally they're not being cautious nor are they being innocent. Christians do not need a "church" to worship in. Most early Christians worshipped in their own homes.

bible and quran and story books. just be a good person. eliminate those that are not. religion is the root of all evil.

There is a Monastery in Egypt, St. Bartolemo, Mohamed was taken there while a young man and taught Judaism and Christan; he gave orders before his death that that Monastery would never be attacked by any Muslim army, it is still there; it is now being attacked almost daily by the Muslim fanatics; the Coptic Catholic orders have lived in Egypt for almost 2000 years, the new Muslim movement says no longer; we must realize what we are going to have to fight , it is a there way or the highway; assimilation is not in there vocabulary !

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed and tolerance with them. ... We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant." - Karl Popper

"Muslims are the worst enemies along with other kind of liberal haters".

oskar-1391552, Oh for God's sake somehow you slipped in "liberals" into the dialogue. It must be a very strange place in that mind of yours! A place where God is a Republican, Conservative, probably Southern, White and a male, loves to hunt, bowl and fish. Not surprisingly the most Christian acting among us are not always necessarily Christian and a not to few professing Christians act anything but! Let's get this straight my friend you can be an atheist, an agnostic, a Muslim American, a Yankee or a collector of ash treys from National Parks and be a Conservative Republican! You can be a Presbyterian, a member of the Armed Forces, a Southerner, a Bingo player, a breeder of Rottweilers or an avid Quilter and be a Liberal Progressive Democrat! Your childish reactionary thinking (people who define themselves by what or who they are against rather then what they are for) is just a big bore and lends nothing to the discourse!

jwhite, what was the servant doing there? He was doing what all servants in that day did. Exactly what his master told him to do!! And I'm glad you now acknowledge the man was a servant, not the persecutor. And no, Jesus was not concerned with defending Himself. What was going on that night was the fulfillment of His destiny and He well knew it. Certainly He would not defend himself against what God sent Him here to do, although He had earlier asked that if it were possible to let that cup pass from Him. Oh, and thank you for your "teatime" sarcasm. I found it mildly amusing.

lol Nice post Tank... but the odds that oskar is going to read your post are 0 to None.

dnimerick

You're not the first to use Scripture to excuse violence. If it was Jesus unavoidable "destiny" to die that day, if he had no choice, why did he bother to ask that the cup be passed from him? His whole life, Jesus did not hurt anyone, period and that's how he CHOSE to live.

What makes you think that being violent under any circumstances is somehow "Jesus approved"? Because Jesus asked, "Does anyone have a sword." Everything else in the way Jesus lived and what Jesus spoke is not important and brushed aside.

this discussion isn't really relevant. even if some Christians are not responding in a Christ-like manner, that doesn't change the fact that they're being persecuted. the opposing argument here seems to be suggesting that persecution is merited if one doesn't turn the other cheek in response; but persecution, by definition, is never merited.

Matthew 16:24-26

²⁴ Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. ²⁵ For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

²⁶ For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Matthew 18: 6-11

⁶ "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

⁷ Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!

⁸ "If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.

⁹ And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.

¹⁰ "Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

¹¹ For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

Seems like Jesus Christ knew His servants would be attacked as He was. He was telling them they would lose this life, but gain life everlasting in the process.

He also let those who attacked His people know what would happen to them, for their nefarious deeds against His children.

Jesus never ever told us we couldn't defend ourselves; that's pure crap. What he did tell us in the parable of the prodigal son was to welcome those back into the fold if they are truly sorry as the mans son was. But, if you will read the parable right after that, it's about the master who caught his servant stealing from him and allowed him to continue to work for him to get his affairs in order. The Servant then went out and allowed those with loans to the master to pay them off at 50% of the value of the loan, then took the money. When ask why the Master didn't prosecute the servant, he said it was his own fault for letting the servant, who he knew was a thief, to continue to work for him.

If we let ourselves be blown up by these extremists, then sit back and do nothing, we have no one to blame but ourselves. God/Jesus never expected us to sit back and get the hell knocked out of us over and over again, we are to defend ourselves especially against the evils of these extremists. Don't pick and choose the parts of the Bible that fit what you want, read all of it and you may be enlightened.

@saxon, Rljmwolf, oskar-1391552, Milton Myrrick, bulldog dude and all others who perpetuate hate, fear and ignorance. Claiming Islam as violent and evil. Quick to point the finger at others while your words echo prayers of death is very un-Christian like. Just because people use the perversion of religion does not give you the right to condemn the religion as a whole.

If such is the case, then what about Timothy McVeigh who claimed to be a devout Christian?

Remember when you point a finger at another you have three pointing back right at you.

Below I placed some actual passages from the Quran in regards to religious acceptance and tolerance.

Forced conversion to a religion is forbidden in quran
"There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient. "(Quran 2:256)

"Invite (people) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good counsel. And argue with them in the best of manners. Surely, your Lord knows best the one who deviates from His way, and He knows best the ones who are on the right path." (Quran 16:125)
　
Muslims are allowed to have non-muslim friends

"Allah does not forbid you as regards those who did not fight you on account of faith, and did not expel you from your homes, that you do good to them, and deal justly with them. Surely Allah loves those who maintain justice." (Quran 60:8)
　
Using abusive language against non-muslims is forbidden

"Do not revile those whom they invoke other than Allah." (Quran 6:108)

"Invite (people) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good counsel. And argue with them in the best of manners. Surely, your Lord knows best the one who deviates from His way, and He knows best the ones who are on the right path." (Quran 16:125)
　
Praying for non-muslims

"So, turn away from them (disbelievers) and wish them peace." (Quran 43:89)

All I’ve got to say is, “Death to hatred and militarism based on misunderstanding, fear and national pride.” -Rick Steves

Jesus has BALLS... He never watched injustice without calling it out, or whipping it out...

To hear those of you bickering back and forth about "what would jesus do" is quite mind boggling.

Maybe next time there is a massive tsunami that kills a bunch of people, we can all come back here and debate what Poseidon was thinking when he caused the tragedy.

How silly that sounds .... yet, how accurate a correlation?

Intelligent Soul, you asked to be corrected, so here it is: You're wrong. The bible is very clear that you're supposed to take care of your family and it doesn't say that you can't defend yourself.

JWhite,

You too are wrong. Christians are not told they can't defend themselves, especially in practice of their religion. If you believe that and you consider yourself a Christian, then you need some more study.

Jesus specifically told his disciples, before he was crucified, that they needed to arm themselves. He told the ones without money to sell their own garments to buy a sword if that's the only way they could get one.

Jesus also stated why he and his disciples didn't resist him being arrested, while at the same time stating what his expectation would be if he were an earthly king. Read John 18:36

God himself raised up warriors and gave them the power to overcome their enemies. Have a look at Hebrews 11:30-40 if you doubt it.

If you're a Christian, apparently your version of Christianity is different than God's or Jesus'.

If we let ourselves be blown up by these extremists, then sit back and do nothing

Where's your faith in God? If you really believe that Jesus is reigning as king in heaven, why don't you believe he will protect his people if necessary? The Christian way of life is the best defense, not violence.

That doesn't mean that Christians were to be stupid. We were to be cautious as serpents. If a country is hostile to Christianity, they were to be cautious, worshipping in secret honoring God without drawing the persecutors, just like a serpent. They were also to be innocent, following the law, not causing harm to anyone, and peaceful like Doves.

The scriptures clearly say, "Happy are the peacemakers."

In this way, they can be sheep among wolves.

Again, people who advocate violence in the name of Jesus are false Christians.

Meanest one,

I have not seen YOUR version of Islam before. If you really believe what you wrote, you should be condemning the violence of you radical brothers instead of preaching how peaceful Islam is. In other words...put your money where your mouth is...if you sit back and do nothing about the radical factor of Islam you are as guilty as the people committing these acts.

@intelligent, He also got sick of the evil going on at the temple and whipped their asses, I think bombing would have brought out the whip again!

Another example of how all religions have turned into jokes!!!!! It's seems to be all about how to kill all the other religions. Maybe all the religious nut jobs will all kill each other and then the rest of us can live in peace.

Matthew 24:4-14

⁴ And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. ⁵ For many will come in My name, saying, I am the Christ, and will deceive many. ⁶ And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. ⁷ For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

⁸ All these are the beginning of sorrows.

⁹ "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake. ¹⁰ And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. ¹¹ Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. ¹² And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. ¹³ But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

¹⁴ And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Matthew: 24: 45-51

⁴⁵ "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? ⁴⁶ Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. ⁴⁷ Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. ⁴⁸ But if that evil servant says in his heart, My master is delaying his coming, ⁴⁹ and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, ⁵⁰ the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, ⁵¹ and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The time is coming, the signs are everywhere. The attacks of the unbelievers against Christians will intensify. Those who attack us will pay their price for it. Remember Satan is behind all the attacks, and he is a liar.

@96ws6

Well I invite you to visit a Mosque or reach out to a Muslim and ask. Investigate on your own what the Quran actually states. Don't just follow the hateful rhetoric of individuals perpetuating violence.

I do denounce violence of any kind. It is wrong. Regardless who perpetrates it; Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu etc.

We see many individuals who use religion as an excuse to commit unspeakable acts.

As we are all human beings, I consider everyone my brother (including you). I am not perfect but I try and do something everyday. Learning about different cultures, religions and ways of life.

Islam has no "version". There is only one Quran. No re-writes or anything (I am not condemning religious books that do.)

Also, the Quran clearly states if you commit suicide, you go straight to hell. If you commit a murder you go straight to hell. No questions asked.

Are there individuals who take religious teachings and twist the words to justify their own agendas... absolutly. But I think we can agree all religions are guilty of that one.

Yes indeed--let's play "quote the bible!
2 Kings 18:27
"But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? Hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?"

Deuteronomy 23:1
No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

1 Samuel 18:25-27
Then Saul said, "Thus shall you say to David, 'The king desires no bride-price except a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, that he may be avenged of the king's enemies.'" Now Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines. And when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well to be the king's son-in-law. Before the time had expired, David arose and went, along with his men, and killed two hundred of the Philistines. And David brought their foreskins, which were given in full number to the king, that he might become the king's son-in-law. And Saul gave him his daughter Michal for a wife.

#10 – Ezekial 23:19-20
Yet she increased her prostitution, remembering the days of her youth when she engaged in prostitution in the land of Egypt. She lusted after their genitals as large as those of donkeys, and their seminal emission was as strong as that of stallions.

Jwhite1038, intelligent soul:

Matthew 18:20 (Words of Jesus)

²⁰ For where two or three are gathered in my name, I am there among them."

Jesus is with them, I pray he will show them the way.

Romans 12:18-19

¹⁸If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. ¹⁹Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

I take this to mean that we are to turn the other check for as long as possible, but are not expected to sit back and be slaughtered; we should always try to live peaceably with all people.

Luke 22:36 (Words of Jesus)

³⁶He said to them, "But now, the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one.

There also comes a time when you have to fight.

jwhite, Jesus asked that if it were possible for the cup to be removed from Him because NO ONE in a mortal body would look forward to what Jesus knew was coming. But the cup could not pass from Him, so as the obedient servant of God He remained. I would like to point out that He could have escaped. He did not have to wait for His persecutors, whom he knew were on their way. Those arriving to bring Him to crucifixtion didn't even know what He looked like. That's why they needed Judas to identify Him.

Meanest one

As long I do not see a " one million march" of condenation from the whole Islam against acts of violence toward other religions, terrorist attacks , and the blessing of suicide bombers with 10,000 virgins none of your words will change my mind, Islam is a violent Religion.

meanest-one:

You're arguments are disingenuous, as many of the passage your outline have been direct contradictions by other ayats.

You mention this:

"Allah does not forbid you as regards those who did not fight you on account of faith, and did not expel you from your homes, that you do good to them, and deal justly with them. Surely Allah loves those who maintain justice." (Quran 60:8)

However, Sura 3 is Chronologically less recent than Sura 60, (Sura 60 is 91/114, where Sura 3 is, ironically, 89/114 - with a higher number being more recent.

And what does this passage say?

Sura 3:28
Let not the believers [Muslims]
take for friends or helpers
unbelievers rather than
believers; if any do that,
in nothing will there be help
from God; except by way
of precaution, that ye may
guard yourselves from them.[373]
But God cautions you
(to remember) himself;
for the final goal
is to God.

So - if you, like other Muslims, are proponents of Abrogation then you are correct, 60.8 does indeed abrogate or "nullify" 3.28. However, then 9.29 Abrogates this - as it is the 2nd most recent Sura in the entirety of the Qur'an (emphasis mine):

Sura 9:29
Fight those that believe not
in God nor the Last Day,
nor hold forbidden
which hath been forbidden
by God and His Apostle [Muhammad],
nor acknowledge the religion
of Truth [Islam], (even if they are)
of the People of the Book
until they pay the Jizya[1281]
with willing submission[1282],
and feel themselves subdued.

This also deals with another part of your disingenuous argument: You correctly state the Religion of Islam is not compulsory, but Shari'a (Islamic Law) IS, as Sura 9.29 very clearly illustrates -

...and I challenge you now to categorically deny.

Also - since we're talking about the Qur'an - I accuse you of taking advantage of Sura 4.101 in order to "moderate and protect Islam" in a hostile environment (a non Muslim State). Emphasis is mine, and I've quoted the ENTIRE ayat lest I be accused of "taking things out of context"

Sura 4.101
When ye travel
through the earth,
there is no blame on you
if ye shorten your prayers,[617]
for fear the unbelievers may attack you
for the unbelievers are
unto you enemies*.
When thou (O Apostle)
art with them, and standest
to lead them in Prayer,
let one part of them
stand up (in prayer) with thee,
taking their arms with them;
when they finish
their prostrations, let them
take their position in the rear.
And let the other party come up
which hath not yet prayed-
and let them pray with thee,
taking all precautions,
and bearing arms.
The unbelievers wish,
if ye were negligent
of your arms and your baggage,
to assault you in a single rush. [618]
But there is no blame on you
if you put aware your arms
because of inconvenience
of rain or because ye are ill;
but take (every) precaution
for yourselves. For the
unbelievers
God hath prepared
a humiliating punishment.

This ayat is Allah telling Muhammad that when in hostile lands - it's okay to do things that you normally would not do in order to preserve Islam and continue the Jihad.

*Did you notice that? It's also worth noting Sura 4 is chronologically newer than Sura 60 - and this passage proclaims ALL UNBELIEVERS ENEMIES of Muslims - thus abrogating the more "peaceful" ayat you decided to quote, and because 60.8 has been abrogated, but 3.28 is now consistent in revelation with 4.101 - it's message is taken to be "better and more correct."

Still not convinced, how about let's grab another one from Sura 4:

Sura 4.89
They [unbelievers] but wish that ye
should reject faith,
as they do, and thus be
on the same footing (as they)
but take not friends
from their ranks
until they flee
in the way of God
(from what is forbidden)
But if they turn renegades**,
sieze them and slay them
wherever ye find them;
and (in any case) take no
friends or helpers from
their ranks;-

Once again, we have yet another newer ayat that Abrogates the nicer, more pluralistic ayat of Sura 60.

Sorry. Have a nice day ;-)

Oh. I would love for you to comment on this:
http://world-news.newsvine.com/_news/2011/01/03/5756740-bombing-opens-vein-of-christian-anger-in-egypt?threadId=3018821&commentId=50493538#c50493067

So after reading all the "poor muslims,bad Christians" posts,It's now abundantly clear that if; our country,our family,our way of life,were attacked,and some of the posters on here were killed, or lost loved ones or freedom to think and express views on thier own,they would do nothing in self defense......we are in deep deep trouble...........But there's hope!!!!...Other men and women who didn't have time to sit on a couch and complain were on 18 month long vacations in the sandbox with some very outgoing members of the" loving, religion"....we even managed to help a few get closer to thier all powerful oracle and the virgins.Sure we lost a few legs thanks to thier loving hospitality,....but who's to complain???.......Yeah...we want that kind of love here..........oh well........Happy New Year to all................US.Army Disabled Veteran

Also, the Quran clearly states if you commit suicide, you go straight to hell.

"suicide bomber" bomber is a misnomer, since they see themselves as martyrs. case in point, the Swedish suicide bomber was classified as a "failed suicide bomber" even though he did successfully kill himself, he just failed to kill anyone else. it has absolutely nothing to do with suicide.

Matthew 46:47-56

⁴⁷ And while He was still speaking, behold, Judas, one of the twelve, with a great multitude with swords and clubs, came from the chief priests and elders of the people.

⁴⁸ Now His betrayer had given them a sign, saying, "Whomever I kiss, He is the One; seize Him."

⁴⁹ Immediately he went up to Jesus and said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed Him.

⁵⁰ But Jesus said to him, "Friend, why have you come?"

Then they came and laid hands on Jesus and took Him.

⁵¹ And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.

⁵² But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. ⁵³ Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?

⁵⁴ How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?"

⁵⁵ In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, "Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me.

⁵⁶ But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled."

Then all the disciples forsook Him and fled.

Seems like Jesus Christ is saying that all who have to use force to make their point and get their way will be wiped away by Him. Seeing as He returns as The King of Kings with a sword to rightly divide good and evil.

He allowed it happen to fulfill what must be done, but it does not mean that He condones violence against His people.

justwonderin Thank you so much for your service to our country!

Typical Muslim BS from Meanest one.

You dont see him condemning the actions of the millions of bloodthirsty pig like Muslims, he brings up Timothy McVeigh. Point that finger buddy.

Meanest One doesnt care about speaking out against the Islamists, he's on facebook calling Christians violent.

Typical Muslim BS.

Oskar

Are you going to organize a march in protest of Hitler's attrocaties (he claimed to be a Christian)? Are you going to gather all of the Irish and have them denounce the trecherous acts of IRA bombings (they claim to be catholics)? The Crusades? With that ideology you muyst define all religions as violent.I could go on and on about people of different faiths who use faith as an excuse for violence.

A good way to end hate is not to breed it. Treat others how you would like to be treated.

I am not expecting my words to have given you some type of epiphany and I don't expect you to convert. I respect whatever faith, religion or lack thereof that you choose to follow or not follow. I just ask you don't group together and denounce an entire faith faith, religion or lack thereof that you choose to follow or not follow based on the actions of a few.

The word Islam in Arabic literrally means: Submission / obedience to God and peace. Nothing violent about it. I thank you for sharing with me though. Peace be upon you my brother.

Marie:

You need to read all of Luke 22 to understand why Jesus suggested that they buy a sword.

Jesus words at Luke 22:36 "Let the one having no sword sell his outer garment and buy one," would not indicate that his disciples were about to enter into a hazardous life, it did not indicate they would have to fight.

Rather he deisred to have a sword available among his disciples to demonstrate clearly that, though they would come into circumstances that could easily provoke armed resistance, he did not intend to resort to the sword but would give himself up voluntarily in harmony with God's will. Thus when Peter did react and try to put up armed resistance, chopping off the ear of Malchus, Jesus ordered him to "Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword."

Certainly, Peter's sword and the other one at hand would have availed little against such a large group of armed men, and by trying to use them, they would have undoutedly have 'perished by the sword'.

More important, such attempted delivery of Jesus would have have failed, being completely contrary to God's purpose.

As it was, later that day, Jesus could plainly state to Pilate: "If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews but as it is my kindgom is not from this source."

Therefore, 2 Timothy 2:24 says: "A servant of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, keeping himself restrained under evil."

Cowboygrandpa making straight the way of the Lord as usual ~ Namaste Shalom

Thought I'd pitch this in as the closer:

Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, said the LORD of hosts.

Zechariah 4:6

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

This is the word of the Lord unto Zerubbabel - This prince was in a trying situation, and he needed especial encouragement from God; and here it is: Not by might, (of thy own), nor by power, (authority from others), but by my Spirit - the providence, authority, power, and energy of the Most High. In this way shall my temple be built; in this way shall my Church be raised and preserved. No secular arm, no human prudence, no earthly policy, no suits at law, shall ever be used for the founding, extension, and preservation of my Church. But the spirit of the world says, "These are all means to which as we must have recourse; otherwise the cause of God may be ruined." Satan, thou liest!

meanest one

There is no need a march to protest against Hitler, his Empire of terror was defeated, IRA leaders are behind bars, and The Pope ask for forgiveness for the violent acts committed for the Crusades. What is going on with Islam is the present , and even if you try to diminish the treat from your fellows Muslims brother is great, be better your religious leaders start acting against those that use the violence to spread the Islam, an you all are complicit for your silent and allowed radical Imams be leaders of Islam.

John 18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”

Jesus never said to not defend yourself. He told Peter to put his sword away because it interfered with His Father's plans at the time. Go look up the original Greek and the meaning of the words. "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." He even stated if He wanted to He could call legions of angels to protect Him. He never said to get RID of the sword.

Jesus preached the message of Peace and Love. He wants His people to spread His message peacefully, not forcefully and violently like so many ancient European cultures did (example the Crusades or Spanish Inquisition).

We should not defend the Faith violently. We should defend the weak and the needy though. We have a moral duty to defend those who are in danger.

Psalm 82:4 Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.

We should defend our cities and homes. In Nehemiah when they were rebuilding the walls they carried a sword and a hammer in both hands.

There are many scriptures where it talks about having weapons to defend yourself. Never says to not have a weapon and not to defend yourself. Jesus tells His disciples to buy a sword.

Now we shouldn't use violence as individuals for vengeance. We are a civilized people with police, laws, and governments to handle these scenarios. We have laws in our country. Jesus also said to obey the laws of the land, as long as it does not interfere with God's law.

For the scripture of 'turn the other cheek'. Read that again. People are right handed mostly. If you get your right cheek slapped, you more then likely got back handed with the other person's right hand. Thats an insult so to speak. Jesus is saying not to defend yourself against an insult. Life threatening scenarios are not being addressed in this passage.

So those Christians and none Christians that try to use these verses for the purpose of stating that Christians can't use violence to defend themselves. What would you do if a pedophile was attempting to take your child? You wouldn't use violence to defend your innocent child who is in need?

1 Timothy 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel."

Exodus 22:2-3 "If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed.

Proverbs 25:26 "A righteous man who falters before the wicked is like a murky spring and a polluted well."

meanest one - you are perpetuating lies that have been roundly discredited. Timothy McVeigh and Adolf Hilter were not Christians and did not kill others in the name of religion, period.

Timothy McVeigh grew up a Catholic but did not study the religion past grammar school. He turned away from Christianity altogether as a young adult and his last statement on religion (in an interview after he was convicted) McVeigh said he was agnostic. He considered the deaths in Oklahoma City collateral damage in protesting the government.

Hitler also never claimed to be Christian and many times spoke of the "evil" of Christianity and how it threatened the power of the State and Socialist movement. Here are a couple of his quotes.

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State."

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."

@BrandenRT

I think you may be taking these suras out of context my friend. First you must understand that meaning can be lost with translitration and translation. Islam teaches self preservation because nothing is more valuble than human life (Muslim and none muslim alike)

Sura 3.28 clearly states that Muslims must protect themselves from non-muslims because of attack and sadly hateful comments posted above show why. Believing in faith blindly is silly. Like a drowning man refusing help from a passing boat saying "God will save me." Obviously if you have ill intent you can take these same words and perverse them to have other meanings but the same can be said of any religious scripture. If you already have hate in your heart no book is going to change that, thats just how you feel.

In Sura 9.29, I assume you are referencing the term "fight." Some might say I am "fighting" blind and misguided hatered right now.

I do not need to protect Islam but I may have to protect myself from other people (muslim and non-muslim alike)

Sura 4.101. Again this sura is geared toward self-preservation not blatant attacks on others.

Sura 4.89 While I can see why reading this in English is quite inflammatory understanding of the Arabic and language could help to shed light. Check out this article called "Death to Traffic." http://www.ricksteves.com/blog/index.cfm?fuseaction=entry&entryID=244

I appreciate you actually reading the Quran to base your opinions and I encourage you to continue doing so.

@America Today Anthony and Mateo

I denounce and condemn any act of violence perpetuated by any group of people (Muslim and non-muslim alike) The reference was in response to a post asking for the death of all Muslims and in not so nice of terms. My point is people of all faith perpetrate henious acts onto the rest of humanity (Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Christians) I wasn't attemting to villianize or demonize Chistianity. As a muslim I know the bible, torah, etc.. are also holy scripture to be studied and learned from. I feel that we should hold all extremist to the same standards.

@arodoll and oskar

I didnt see your post before i finished typing. We can debate on whether these individuals were or were not of one faith. But I ask you both this... are you claiming there are no extremist christians that advocate violence?

When did McVeigh become a devout Christian??? He was an atheist. He did not commit his evil in the name of any religion or government. Kind of hard to take anything else written in 1.25 seriously.

Romans 12:18-19

¹⁸If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. ¹⁹Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

Do you really believe that those people should just lie down and be slaughtered? I don't think that Jesus would condone that either.

I certainly will not lie down and let them slaughter me...Christians have just as much right to live as do Muslims.

@arodoll

During world war II in croatia,run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveliç, a practicing Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!
In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar -orthodox-Christian Serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive. But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdienst der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did
nothing to prevent them.

More recently the BBC aired:

Priests get death sentence for Rwandan genocide
BBC NEWS April 19, 1998

A court in Rwanda has sentenced two Roman Catholic priests to death for their role in the genocide of 1994, in which up to a million Tutsis and moderate Hutus were killed. Pope John Paul said the priests must be made to account for their actions. Different sections of the Rwandan church have been widely accused of playing an active role in the genocide of 1994.

Let me start by saying that any war waged in the name of religion is wrong and ungodly.
I find their way of life barbaric at best and how they treat their women and children despicable (not to mention violations of human rights). You would think on that basis alone they would be tossed out of the United Nations. I recognize that their lack of tolerance for others shall lead to a grim fate for all of us if they win, but, it is not our country's place to choose for them in their country anymore then it is theirs to choose for us in ours.

I find it interesting that when Muslims "invade" the US and try to tell us how to live and expect us to accept their religious laws, that we can see why it was wrong for them to even come here if they don't intend to assimilate and abide by our laws. And yet, these same people cursing them here can't see the reverse playing out there, in Egypt.
The Muslims there see the Christians as the ones "invading" their country and telling them how to live. Granted, the Christians aren't using bombs to make their points, but does that make them being there any less of an affront?

You can't tell others to change - They have to want to change. They have to want to crawl out of the 5BC mud and ashes and join the 21st century in peace, but those in power would rather keep their stranglehold over their people and damn them to misery and despair.

The reasonable thing to do is that whomever you are and wherever you choose to live, you need to abide by the Laws of that Nation, and if you can't (or won't), then don't go there to begin with, or leave if need be. Going anyplace with the idea and aim to change them to your ways is always a mistake and wrong, no matter who you are.

meanest one,

Your Taqiya (Lies to Advance Islam) are showing.

You state that there is only one version of the Holy Koran (Quran). That is true and false. According to Islam the ONLY TRUE version is the Arabic Holy Koran (Quran) not the English Translations, etc. that you continue to misquote.

The Arabic Term Islam in relation to Muslim "Submission" according to Islam states NOTHING about Peace between Islamic Believers, Christians, Jews, Unbelievers. It does state Submission to Islam or get Killed. The Peace mentioned in the Holy Koran (Qura) is when everyone is an Islamic Believer or is converted to Islam or dead. The Death Penalty Crimes committed by Christians, Jews, Unbelievers against Allah and His Prophet are listed in Sura 9.30 thru Sura 9.123. that specifically name the Christians, Jews as Unbelievers.

The Christians, Jews, Unbelievers had War Declared on them by Modern Islam as stated by the 109 Verses of the 114 Verses of the Holy Koran (Quran). You want your misinterpreted Peace (not stated in the Holy Koran (Quran)) fine then you DENOUNCE the 109 Verses of the 114 Verses of the Holy Koran (Quran) that Call All Islamic Believers to War Against the Christians, Jews, Unbelievers (everyone else, including "lesser" Islamic Believers).

You want to keep bringing up Hitler, how about the Arab World Blood Oath with Hitler in 1933, with the mutual cause of the extermination of the Jews. This Blood Oath was signed by Hitler, his Staff, the Muslim Brotherhood, The Leaders of the Arab Nations, Amin Al-Husseini, Abdul Gamal Nasser (later President of Egypt), etc.. The side benefit was having all the Arab World against the British during WWII.

No greater love has One than He who gives up His life for another.

Christian's have a right to defend themselves. They do not have the right to seek revenge. I would defend my wife, children, grandchildren, fellow Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindu's, ... all if they are attacked. But I will not seek vengance,for vengance is the Lord's.

There is a difference between defending and attacking. Defending fends one off, attacking seeks to control or kill another for gain.

Meanest one – I never denied that there are extremist Christians who use violence. I’m very aware of this taking place throughout history.

In the examples you give, the genocide that took place in Croatia was perpetrated by a dictator and not in the name of Catholicism but rather Nationalism, although several Catholic leaders were directly or indirectly involved. The Pope did not condemn the genocide for political reasons, as the country was very unstable and his condemnation was feared to assist Germany in WWII. I’m in no way advocating their behavior as it was absolutely genocide and wrong. Your estimates are a little off from what I have read, as I have seen numbers between 50,000 – 300,000 victims which is disastrous for such a small area. I’m sure that Catholic leaders have actively suppressed this from history but we also have to remember that over 5 million people died during the same time in the Holocaust so unfortunately those atrocities grab more headlines historically than the violence in Croatia. It doesn’t make it any less important though.

As for the Rwanda genocide, over 150,000 people were tried for genocide including the two priests, hardly evidence of Christian extremism. Both priests assisted in local disputes between the minority Tutsi and the ruling power Hutu. Their actions were isolated incidents of local violence against the invading Tutsi. You aren’t actually blaming Christian extremists for the entire Rwanda civil war are you?

As for present-day extremist Christians who use violence, they certainly exist in this country and throughout the world on a small scale. The difference between them and extremist Muslims in my opinion is that the loudest condemnation of violent extremist Christians are from other Christians and Christian leaders. They publicly denounce their actions and clearly state that the actions are not what Christianity teaches. A perfect example of this (although not-violent per se) is the Westboro Baptist Church and their despicable behavior against gays and our military. No Baptist or Christian association or organization will allow this group to be affiliated with them and the loudest denouncements of Westboro’s activities come from other Christians and Christian organizations.

Islamic extremists on the other hand have only been widely denounced by American Muslims and American Muslim organizations. In the rest of the world, most Muslim organizations and leaders still do not condemn violence by Muslim extremists, even when suicide bombers inadvertently kill or injure fellow Muslims.

Additionally, there are no extremist Christian organizations in the world that have the money or resources that several major extremist Muslim organizations have.
Comparing very small groups of isolated extremist Christians that have virtually no power other than to target individuals to the well organized and funded extremist Muslim organizations able to commit mass murder throughout the world and weld considerable power in many Islamic countries is disingenuous at best.

Is it not the nature of the universe for there to be separations between this and that, between similar and different?

The modern era of communications is fueling the human instinct to gather into "Us vs Them". And sociopathic/psychopathic individuals who's alien brains do not value the wants, needs, or lives, of anyone but their own will take great advantage of the worlds acute awareness of our differences to foster the fear and anger they need to further their own goals.

Merkel was unpopular for her observations of multiculturalism in Germany had failed, but her observations are hard to dispute.

What I see is a sad but inevitable realization by civilized nations that not all philosophies can co-exist together. That literature that is heavily worded against a free thinking society can not be indulged in practice. And that eventually communities of those who follow such literature will come under the control of sociopathic/psychopathic individuals who have no fear or understanding of the high costs of using violence to further themselves and their goals.

There will be blood.

I have read the Quran out of curiosity and because of work. The Sad thing that I have pointed out on many occations is that The Imahams and religous leadership in a Shara fail to all agree who interpritation is correct and how one interpritation can effect the current situation. As there are truly more radicals musliums than non-radical. i say this because if there were more moderate musliums they would speak out and not fear saying what they feel.

It is also the sociial behavior in this part of the world to break stuff and riot to get a goups point across. well I think it is about time that Christians in this part of the world be recognized and the media tell the world how Christians are under attack and looked upon as scum.

But for those who say Christians back in the US are just the same and radicalized such as the point to Tim McViegh all I can say is nice try. Your comparison is very shallow and lacks. Christians are indeed under attack in the US and around the world. But one does not see a act of teorroism or deaths dealt out every day or every other day because they feel their religon is attacked. As more people turn away from God and post their devotion to themselves and monitary things as we have read any time this topic comes up they seem to enjoy their attacks on Christians as someones feelings get hurt by the sight of a nativity scene and yell and cry over the term "MERRY CHRISTMAS" and want to replace it with happy Holiday's or a Holiday tree. These are the same people that still partake in the sweet side of this holiday. these people blast Christians but still they go out and buy presents for their kids and receive gifts. These peole are the ones who lack conviction total conviction to not say, "Well since I am not a person of religion and believe religion is the worste thing that was ever given to man, I will not partake in ANY of the festivities. None of my Kids will receive any gift as I control my own life and do not believe."

I doubt their are very few that are that hard core and just talk about how a sign or a tree damages their ideals.

These are the same people that tell us that our kids are to partake in winter play and not a Christmas play. Thanks the lord I live in a very small town where our kids say the pledge and yes do have Chistmas Play with angles and everything else. For this I am very fortunate because back in the USofA Christians are under attack everyday but we will not blow ourselves up to make a point and show our conviction as we have all been taught differant and this is not tolerated nor is it exceptable by our Lord God. Christian do not riot in the streets even though that every christian knows that they are under attack. We are conforted in knowing that although we may be alone in in the car on the way to work, we are not truly alone as we are under the gaze of our Lord. It truly is a relief to know while i am out here in in Afgh. One (an Atheist) would be very,very worried as we are very, very religous and as we pray together prior to our patrols and mission of that particular day. And we even call our Chaplin...Father or the holy man. I can't imagine what it will be like when we ar all home and there is no more war to fight, I have a feeling that my generation will have thier own ideas and not what we we taught in college as we have seen the real world and all that they a have told us was wrong. Christianity may be under attack now but and people may try and PC our country but as we were taught by the libreral in school it is up to us my generation to rebel against moden thinking. So I fear your plans have back fired as my liberal professors failed to understand that it would be their idealogy I would be rebeling against.

Sorry if I went off on a ramble there it is very late and I am tired....

add to post#1.57

meanest one,

Also you want to talk about Africa, and you clearly have not been there. Let's talk about the Arabic Islamic Believers massacring the Peaceful African Islamic Believers as non human Heretics at Darfur. This is why there is NO such thing as "Moderate", "Liberal", "Peaceful" Islamic Believers, if there are they are dead, dead, dead, killed off as Heretics as "Doing Harm to Allah and His Prophet". These Islamic massacres set the example for the rest of the Islamic Believers as to what happens if you are a "Moderate", "Liberal", "Peaceful" Islamic Believer.

As a Historical Perspective what did you expect the Pope to do while in Mussolini's Italy as allies of Hitler, have his Vatican Guards attack them. You think the Pope still had lines of communication with the rest of the Church during WWII, he was cut off, until after the US Military Invasion of Sicily and Italy. As it was suspected by Hitler and Mussolini that the Church was being used against Mussolini and Hitler as part of the "Underground", including the Death Penalty Criminal Offense of harboring or smuggling out Jews.

Meanest one

Do you think that bringing up those despicable acts committed for bad Christians, Condemned by the Pope has you said, and for all Christians around the world, are going to shade the dayly attacks and permanent treat to the world's peace that your extremist brothers are doing in the name of Ala. Where is your outrage and the outrage of your fellow brothers and religious leaders condemning and declaring enemies of the humanity to those who kill in the name of Ala. As long you don't speak loud and clear , as long the terrorist attacks continue, as long you want to impose the Sharia Law, as long the home grown terrorism increase nobody is going to believe you.

Open Eyes – you said “The Muslims there see the Christians as the ones "invading" their country and telling them how to live. Granted, the Christians aren't using bombs to make their points, but does that make them being there any less of an affront?” and
“The reasonable thing to do is that whomever you are and wherever you choose to live, you need to abide by the Laws of that Nation, and if you can't (or won't), then don't go there to begin with, or leave if need be. Going anyplace with the idea and aim to change them to your ways is always a mistake and wrong, no matter who you are. “

Well, several points I would like to make to your statement.
First, Christians have been in Egypt for over 2,000 years so how are they “invading” exactly? Or when should they have not gone to Egypt? And since they have been a minority for thousands of years, how are they telling all Egyptians how to live?

“Granted, the Christians aren't using bombs to make their points, but does that make them being there any less of an affront” Well, since Muslims are killing innocent civilians, yes that is more of an affront unless Egyptian Christians killing Muslims with kindness. It is also illegal and yet the government has routinely not investigated this type of violence against Christians.

Additionally, why should Christians leave Egypt, a land they have lived in for centuries when they are following the laws of the land. Egypt does not allow political parties to institute religious laws, although this continues to take place. Egyptian Christians’ major complaint is that the rule of law has not been enforced for decades when it involves Muslims attacking Christians. They are not trying to change anyone to their ways in that country, they are simply trying to practice their faith without the constant threat of violence.

Jesus the annointed one was a Jew he grew up Jewish and did not preach against Jewish Law or customs...his disciples created a following by gathering his teachings and decided to put it together along with the books of the Torah as the old testament to call the bible....hence christianity. Any christian, jew or muslim or any other religion who believes they are god's chosen people as if God hates everyone else is a dangerous threat.

Love thy neighbors as yourselves...so which is it. If God is all-powerful, all-good, and all-knowing then why would he condemn those who do not follow him. What sick satisfaction does God get from creating people that he knows will not accept his teachings because God is all-knowing just to condemn them...Thats sadistic. If everything that happens in this world is God's will then it is seen as good and if God is all-powerful why is it left up to fallible humans to promote God's will on this earth?

To you defeatists? Get a grip! In all philosophy- FUNDAMENTALISM - is what begins negative passions. The human mind is only fulfilling its purpose. Its like a came-lion lizard. Do you think it knows it is changing colors? Or is this natural instinct .... like say when a human begins to judge others than himself? Conservative nothing! I AM THE AMERICAN RIGHT! I THINK ALLEN GINSBERG WAS OUR GREATEST POET! ... Now to all who are indoctrinated- this is oxy-moronic ... i.e. "This guy is wacko because I have convinced myself that I "know" things." Let me assure all - YOU KNOW VERY LITTLE! NONE OF US DO! ONCE YOU REALIZE THIS? YOU ARE ON YOUR WAY TO SELF DISCOVERY!..... Like someone SAYS that Islam is bent on violence! Well so are all fundamental forms of philosophy as before we were intellectuals- we were beasts - WE STILL ARE! You are fooling yourself if you can't see that you are an animal that has gotten "smart!" Now your mind is being manipulated by? THE MAO! THE M A O! He is unGodly - i.e. HE DOESN'T SERVE A GOD - BUT THE STATE! HE HAS NO CONSCIENCE! HE PLAYS BOTH SIDES! Can you here me? Think intellectual! Don't be a part of the problem- but join me and start solving! IT IS ALL JUST IN FRONT OF US! It is the mark! Mathematics! In the hand and IN the forehead! it is Money! It is Numbers! It is THE MAO!

Sadly this article only touched on the innocent blood shed to highlight protests. Why would one believe that the violence of the event was the work of the Coptic Protesters and not Muslims trying to deflect upon the Christians the initial assault of the suicide bomber?

It isn't like the Government of Egypt would work too very hard to get to the truth.

Coptic Christians are angry and Americans are damn angry at the intolerance and murder and mayhem being perpetrated by Mohammed's murderous gangs of jihadist idiots! We need to quaranntine all followers of this vicious idealogy NO MORE MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS!

The issue here is not about the scriptures ''what would Jesus do'' the issue is these people are being bludgeoned and murdered by something called Islam!!

PeAce LoVeR:

Hmmmm ??

Coptic Christians are angry and Americans are damn angry at the intolerance and murder and mayhem being perpetrated by Mohammed's murderous gangs of jihadist idiots! We need to quaranntine all followers of this vicious idealogy NO MORE MUSLIM IMMIGRANTS!

So you would deny all based on the actions of the few ?? What then of those who come to America to escape, and become Christians ?? Those who give up their freedoms for safety have neither.

The issue here is not about the scriptures ''what would Jesus do'' the issue is these people are being bludgeoned and murdered by something called Islam!!

Like the Christians who were crucified, beheaded, beaten to death, fed to the lions, burnt alive, and generally had to hide to keep alive in the old Roman empire ?? Seems like that time is returning again as Christ said it would.

Yes peacelover, and it seems that a lot of people think they should just sit down, and be slaughtered.

cowboygrandpa I truly believe the National security of the USA is at risk based on this video

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2515587181120245843&hl=en# and after watching this video I am convinced there should be a strict moratorium on muslim immigration!

The history books are littered with countless examples of endless cycles of violence as revenge for violence that was revenge for violence. The problem with responding to these attacks by using violence is that it won't stop the attacks against Christians. Muslims attack Christians; Christians respond by attacking Muslims in the name of "self defense". Muslims then attack Christians in the name of "self defense". As they say, this leads to "an eye for an eye and another eye for another eye, until EVERYONE is blind."

The cycle will NEVER end until someone steps up and says "I hate everything you've done to my people, but I won't stoop to your level and respond with violence. I will not become you."

Marie Pierce:

Matthew 27:51-54

⁵¹ Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, ⁵² and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

⁵³ and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

⁵⁴ So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, "Truly this was the Son of God!"

Faith in His resurrection of me is greater than my love of this life, what I lay down willingly for my love of Him I gain a hundred fold more. I was once a very violent man. When I came to Him He is changing me into the man He wants me to be. I may not want to die, but I'm not afraid of death, for to live is Christ, to die is gain.

If I kill those who do me wrong what have I said to God, except I have no faith in your vengence Lord ?? Murderers should be put to death, by the governments. That is part of their responsibility. For them to not put those to death who have atacked these Christians annd killed them, is for them to face the wrath of God.

Believe me, I would rather die by the hand of man and be resurrected into ever lasting life with Jesus Christ, than to deny God and face His wrath for an eternity, as those who do the evil do.

There are examples of righteous wars, and unrighteous wars in The Holy Bible, what the murderers of Christians are doing is unrighteous, and they will come to their end as promised by God. As such I will not join in an unrighteous vengence based on hatred of others, instead of the Love of Christ. My life is not more important than His way.

You are free to disagree with me. A few question's though. Why did Paul not stoop to violence when he was stoned ?? Why did he not flee when he was being sent to Rome ?? Why did he not fight his death ?? Why did he embrace Christ over all things ?? Because he knew Christ is life and the flesh comes to death.

p l:

#2.6

I am convinced the world is going to war. One that makes all the other wars seem like a backyard brawl. One that will pit the forces of evil against the forces of righteousness.

Righteousness will be way out numbered and it will look hopeless. Then Christ will appear and all who oppose Him will know that they erred. For they will die and the birds and animals will have a great feast on them.

Ezekiel 38-39

38

Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, ² "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy against him, ³ and say, Thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal. ⁴ I will turn you around, put hooks into your jaws, and lead you out, with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords. ⁵ Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; ⁶ Gomer and all its troops; the house of Togarmah from the far north and all its troops-many people are with you.

⁷ "Prepare yourself and be ready, you and all your companies that are gathered about you; and be a guard for them. ⁸ After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you will come into the land of those brought back from the sword and gathered from many people on the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate; they were brought out of the nations, and now all of them dwell safely.

⁹ You will ascend, coming like a storm, covering the land like a cloud, you and all your troops and many peoples with you."

¹⁰ Thus says the Lord God: "On that day it shall come to pass that thoughts will arise in your mind, and you will make an evil plan: ¹¹ You will say, I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will go to a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates'- ¹² to take plunder and to take booty, to stretch out your hand against the waste places that are again inhabited, and against a people gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell in the midst of the land.

¹³ Sheba, Dedan, the merchants of Tarshish, and all their young lions will say to you, Have you come to take plunder? Have you gathered your army to take booty, to carry away silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods, to take great plunder? "

¹⁴ "Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog, Thus says the Lord God: "On that day when My people Israel dwell safely, will you not know it? ¹⁵ Then you will come from your place out of the far north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great company and a mighty army. ¹⁶ You will come up against My people Israel like a cloud, to cover the land. It will be in the latter days that I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me, when I am hallowed in you, O Gog, before their eyes."

¹⁷ Thus says the Lord God: "Are you he of whom I have spoken in former days by My servants the prophets of Israel, who prophesied for years in those days that I would bring you against them ?

¹⁸ "And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel," says the Lord God, "that My fury will show in My face. ¹⁹ For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel, ²⁰ so that the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all creeping things that creep on the earth, and all men who are on the face of the earth shall shake at My presence. The mountains shall be thrown down, the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. ²¹ I will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains," says the Lord God. "Every man's sword will be against his brother. ²² And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

²³ Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the Lord."

39 "And you, son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I am against you, O Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal; ² and I will turn you around and lead you on, bringing you up from the far north, and bring you against the mountains of Israel. ³ Then I will knock the bow out of your left hand, and cause the arrows to fall out of your right hand. ⁴ You shall fall upon the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured. ⁵ You shall fall on the open field; for I have spoken," says the Lord God. ⁶ "And I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in security in the coastlands. Then they shall know that I am the Lord. ⁷ So I will make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel, and I will not let them profane My holy name anymore. Then the nations shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel. ⁸ Surely it is coming, and it shall be done," says the Lord God. "This is the day of which I have spoken.

⁹ "Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out and set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and bucklers, the bows and arrows, the javelins and spears; and they will make fires with them for seven years.

¹⁰ They will not take wood from the field nor cut down any from the forests, because they will make fires with the weapons; and they will plunder those who plundered them, and pillage those who pillaged them," says the Lord God.

Who can fight against God and win ?? In other words, all things that happen will be used by Him for His Glory, and none will escape without knowing His wrath, except those who have Jesus Christ.

Now ya don't have to believe, but just look at the world events as they are working out.

Why don't we just do away with ALL religions, and thereby force people to be bigoted on a more rational basis? (And before anyone chastizes me for my comment look up the definition of the word "bigot" and you will get my absolute sarcasm.)

@bobby - Muslims are killing christians in Turkey, Pakistan, Sudan and now Egypt. Don't bring Israel into it. They have nothing to do with your ill stated opinion.

Getreal-

persecute.

You are so right!!!

And you both are so petty. The Beijing-Bushymao-Clinton spy ring has you all looking moronic. These are all "MAO CONFUSION!" And those who jump to obvious conclusions are the dufusses of the world! All they do is further stoke such hatred by their obvious creedist racist indoctrination- and they play RIGHT INTO THE HANDS OF THE MAO! Complete morons who have been empowered by their indoctrination to further communize the planet! If you are in America and believe such idiocy? YOU EITHER A NATIONAL TRAITOR - OR AN INDOCTRINATED COMMUNIST SCHOLAR- AN IMPOSSIBLE IDIOT!

"Muslims persecute all religions except Islam but when they move to a new country they expect people of the country they move to, to respect their religion, and "see their point of view" but will not give anyone else the same privilege in their country"

That is an incredibly stupid statement. The amount of faulty logic used is staggering.

The poster wants you to believe that all 1.6 Billion Muslims think and act as one. Otherwise for his statement to be true, every Muslim that immigrated to another country would have to have first persecuted other religions in their homeland, and then asked for tolerance in their newly adopted country.

The poster cannot have this information unless he is somehow omnipotent.

Here is a hint. If you ever find yourself characterizing 1.6 Billion people as a single entity, you're probably an idiot.

I'm with Jasper.

To 96ws6: You're on the "all Muslims are the enemy" bandwagon. Everything is black and white, and facts probably aren't a problem for you. You're as much an extremist as the extremists you seek to demonize by painting everything with a broad brush.

Jasper, ever been to a Muslim country?

Jasper, Dave, and jonmoontrip,

Site me ONE SINGLE INSTANCEof an Islamic country accepting any other religion and living in peace with people of any other religion, without persecution.

Moderate muslims? So am I to blame for Timothy Mc Veigh's bombimg of the federal building in Oklahoma? or even the unabomber's bomb mail packages? grow up and before you start pointing fingers, get a little more educated

Yes, I'm a Muslim and I agree 100% , Muslims are the new Nazi , they determined to eliminate every other faith and they are happy that so called Alkaida is doing the dirty job for them , Islam is not a good religion, it is a virus that gets in the blood stream and totally dominate your life and your society , turns you to a "Zambi" wake up WORLD and stop them now , soon will be too late to save your lives and your countries, they are using your western Democracy against you, they breed like Rabbet , they taken over Europe through massive immigration, and soon North America, wake up and fight fire with fire .

Um, Alex, I don't know if you know this or not...neither one of those men did their crime in the name of Jesus or God....I don't think either one of them was even religious.

Alex, the unabomber was an atheist and McVeigh was an agnostic. What is your point, or is there one?

96ws6, as open minded and tolerant of a person as I strive to be, I have reluctantly concluded the same thing as you. Muslims want to move into countries all over the world and expect the welcome mat to be laid out and their host countries to bend over backwards to accomodate them. However, in Muslim countries people who are not Muslims are routinely targeted for violence and discrimination. I have respect for most of the world religions, even those with which I disagree and see positive contributions from them. I think Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddahism, Sikism, Taoism, Confusism and many more religious beliefs are positive for humanity and bring out the better nature of people. With Islam, not so. The followers of this religion (corporately anyway) have no tolerance for those who don't practice the Muslm faith and they are seeking to convert the entire world, by force if necessary, to their radical way of thinking. On just about every other issue I am a self-professed bleeding-heart liberal. But in this one instance, I have to agree with the conservatives. Islam is a cancer to the world and the West had better begin some radical treatment if they are going to resist this cancer. I wish I were wrong, but I'm not.

vince thanks for your post very thoughtful and sadly true!

Jasper Spatic,

How about reading the Unabridged Arabic Holy Koran (Quran), Hadith Laws, Fiqh Laws, Sharia Laws, etc. then maybe we can have an intelligent conversation.

As to what binds all 1.5 Billion Islamic Believers is the Islamic Mandatory Islamic Tithes that fund and support:

1. The Worldwide Islamic Military (aka Jihadists, Terrorists).

2. The Worldwide Islamic Law Enforcement (aka Death Squads, Mandatory Islamic Tithe Collectors).

These Mandatory Islamic Tithes include Political Endorsements, Legalization of Islam (Terrorism), Misinformation, Taqiya (Lies to Advance Islam), Monetary, Harboring/Supporting the Islamic Law Enforcement/Islamic Military, etc.. And if you have nothing else to Tithe, then you Tithe yourself as part of the Jihad.

Anything stated against Islam is to "Do Harm To Allah and His Prophet" as the Death Penalty. This is why no one especially Islamic Believers cannot do nor say anything against Islam or the local Imams of the local Mosque will send Islamic Law Enforcement to enforce the Death Penalty. And this does not mean that Islamic Law Enforcement will only be sent in matters of Islamic Believers, examples: Seattle woman now in hiding, Pastor that threatened to burn Holy Koran (Quran), Salmon Rushdie, Lawyer that defended the Iranian Adulteress and fled to Norway, Danish Cartoonist, etc.. The Worldwide Islamic Law Enforcement (Death Squads) are a little backlogged as there are a few hundred that they are attempting to murder.

ALEX'S POINT is YOU are "schoolboys!" You sit and INHALE corporate monopolistic communications as if it were "the HOLY BIBLE!" Alex - an obvious decent man - is trying to HELP you foolish indoctrinados understand that you are making an ass of yourself! He is saying that - are we to hold all secular people responsible for the actions of those two? If we are - hey they were Scottish! Or Irish! Hey the had white skin! One was an EX VETERAN- SAW ACTION! The other was a COLLEGE PROFESSOR ! You can't understand that your "classifications" are anti-AMERICAN! This is THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA! It is the "unowned" nation. An Man of the Islamic faith has just as much a right to come here and get involved in discussion of religeon and philosophy as any of you do! YOU ARE NOT IN CHARGE OF ANYTHING BUT YOUR OWN BELIEFS! That is why you are here! .... Oh but you "know-it-all KNOW-NOTHINGS" are like communist "cocaine!" You get all hyped up over complete BS AND THINK BECAUSE YOU ARE ENJOYING INDOCTRINATED COMMUNIST COMPANY- YOU ARE SOMEHOW "RIGHTEOUS!" You are ill! Very ill! Now what can you possibly say that won't make you look like an idiot? Answer? It is the value of your intelligence quotient- ZERO!

Believe it or not, it is the case in other relegions too. Here in the States the Christians are discreminating against muslims, and almost everyone who is not the same skin color. It is not only in muslim countries. Have you lives in other countries of other ethnic background.

Most of the time minorities are discriminated against. It may be because of religion, skin color, accent or otherwise. This will keep going until the end of this world. Just start being "tolerant" and preach tolerance to others when you get the chance. This is the only way to fight such thing.

Greetings from another part of the earth where minorities are discriminated against.

Monalisa - please enlighten us on how Christians are discriminating against Muslims or different races in the U.S.? And why aren't the courts stepping in since it is a crime?

By the way - Christians are not all the same skin color. In fact, it is the most racially diversified religion on the planet.

Monalisa-2864739

''. Here in the States the Christians are discreminating against muslims'' this is total BS!

Dave but not peacefully. Sadly, there was a time in the 1970's where Egyptian Christians had to flee or be murdered.

Muslims will never live peacefully with ANYONE else...don't you get it? The koran tells them they are better than EVERYONE. It tells them, to collect an extra tax from dhimmis...people who are second class citizens...ANYONE who is not Muslim...

Jesus says to treat others as you want to be treated...

Our constititution does not allow for any religion to be persecuted...Sharia law tells them non Muslims are second class citizens, and should pay an extra tax...we don't tax any Religion...whether it be Muslim, Mormon, Amish, Jewish, Presbyterian, Catholic, Baptist, Menonite, etc... etc... etc...

We may not agree with each other in this country, but you don't see us killing each other in God's name either....do you?

Go ahead and bring up the abortion doctors that have been bombed and killed...I think it has been a total of 7 since, what 1973? While that is horrible, and any murder in an abomination in God's eyes...how many innocent people have Muslim extremist terrorists killed since 1973? And why haven't the moderate Muslims gotten tired of their religion being hi-jacked by the terrorists, hunted them down, and punished them?

And the Christian Fundamentalists KNOW they are better than everyone else, because God told them so. C'mon, Marie, Muslims do not have a lock on entitlement!

See? Now the idiots below me have arrived at their "communism!" The complete moron says "yea ... let's wipe out all religion!" What a dork! Like I want to hang out with these losers for another thousand years! .... If you don't like religion and want to "serve the state" 24-7? why don't you look at apartments in Cuba? I say that you are a dufuss but I tolerate you - and your pathetic communism- until you get in the way! I enjoy my faith. I say "@!$%#!" I don't go to the false prophets church! But I have "spirit!" Those of us who are enlightened cannot be fooled by such communism. We are the American people and YOU HAVE ONLY BEGUN TO RECOGNIZE US - COMMUNIST MORON!

See, yeah, all the stuff on this thread is such a good illustration why I LOVE being a non-Christian in America. We are SOO tolerated, we all get along so well. So OK as long as we go along with Christian ideas. I mean, do we actually need all that quoted scriptural nonsense to discuss this issue? What I hate the most is the smugness of the Christians who claim we all get along. Yeah, right, as long as we go along with you.

or just remove all religion period, as this article proves christians are no less violent in dealing with their problems than muslims.

@Over--

The very mention of "christian nation" in reference to the U.S. is a direct insult to our founders and the foundational documents.

Read up on your history my friend ... I think you'll find the truth so much more enlightening than the Glenn Beck, revisionist, puppet show version.

Also, look up Deism and then come back here and show me how this translates to our founders "christian" beliefs.

We are a secular nation founded on the principles of the enlightenment. And, you my friend, should be a great deal more proud of it if I may be so bold!

Europeans came to the U.S. for freedom of religion and our constitution says "Freedom of Religion". So, it's time for you to either go back to school or hit the books to realize that the U.S. is not just a "Christian" nation. I'm Christian but I'm also smart enough to know our history. Another holy crusade isn't needed but if uneducated people keep banging on that drum, we'll probably go in that direction. Let's hope that education prevails.

Except the United States is not, nor has it ever been a "Christian" nation, at least in terms of its government. The Founding Fathers did not set up a Christian theocracy, but rather a secular republic. Notice there is no mention of the words, "God, Jesus, Christianity, Bible, Trinity, etc." in the Constitution. If guarantees us separation of church and state in the First Amendment (as well as freedom of religion) and it prohibits the us of religious tests as a criterion for running for office. Furthermore, the Treaty of Tripoli signed in 1797 by then President John Adams specifically states in Article 11, ""As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." Therefore, while a majority of our nation may practice one form of Christianity or another (I myself am a practicing Episcopalian), we are in no sense a nation with a Christian government or a Christian political foundation.

Chad, this is a Christian nation, whether you like it or not:

On April 18, 1775, a British soldier ordered him, John Hancock, and others to “disperse in the name of George the Sovereign King of England. Adams responded to him:

In an October 13, 1789 address to the military, he said:

In a letter to Thomas Jefferson dated June 28, 1813, he said

In his first general order to his own troops, General Washington said he called on:

In a letter to all state governors in June, 1783, he wrote:

Alexander Hamilton, who regularly led his household in prayer, also wrote about the connection between Christianity and political freedom. He helped to form the Christian Constitutional Society. In an 1802 letter to co-founder James Bayard, he said:

He was fatally shot in a duel with Burr in July of 1804. His last words were:

Raised Episcopalian, Thomas Jefferson believed that the New Testament had been polluted by early Christians eager to make Christianity palatable to pagans. He believed that they had mixed the words of Jesus with the teaschings of Plato and the philosophy of the ancient Greeks. The authentic words of Jesus were still there, he assured his friend, John Adams. He determined to extract the "authentic" words of Jesus from the rubble which he believed surrounded His real words. That book, intended as a primer for the Indians on Christ’s teachings, is commonly known as the "Jefferson Bible."

Written in the front of his personal Bible, he wrote:

In 1803, at the request of President Thomas Jefferson, the United States Congress allocated federal funds for the salary of a preacher and the construction of his church. That same year, Congress, again at Jefferson’s request, ratified a treaty with the Kaskaskia Indians. Congress recognized that most of the members of the tribe had been converted to Christianity, and Congress gave a subsidy of $100.00 a year for seven years for the support of a priest so that he could “instruct as many ... children as possible.”

On April 21, 1803, Jefferson wrote this to Dr. Benjamin Rush (also a signer of the Declaration of Independence):

In that same letter, he wrote,

In a letter to William Short on October 31, 1819, he wrote:

Maurie --

That's an awful long response ... and one that can be refuted with a simple question.

Where, in our constitution, does it mention god?

Sorry .... you loose

Marie Pierce, showing that some of our founding fathers were Christians does precisely NOTHING to show that the United States was founded as a Christian nation. Your mistake is in confusing personal beliefs with the design of our government. Our founding fathers had a wide range of religious beliefs. That's to be expected with ANY group of people.

The important issue, however, is that the United States constitution was written specifically to prevent exactly the kind of religious persecution that some people in this thread are advocating.

And to those that are defending the response to this senseless bombing: Rioting in the streets and attacking random muslims qualifies as "self defense" only in the mind of one who is, himself, an extremist.

Faith isn't a plague, it's how some people exploit faith that is the real crime.

No donald.

It's the very definition of faith, which suspends rational inquiry and promotes the diminished respect for evidence, that we all must fight. The fact that this even needs to be pointed out (often to highly educated people) just shows how far the symptoms have spread and just how deadly this plague really is.

I believe the scripture quoted was saying that if you really know GOD, you will not kill people... Applicable to both sides... Same God...

chad-1841583, glad to see that you believe in the myth that a utopian society will suddenly appear when people abandon other mythos. Also very pleasing to see that you are arguing from definition, since that is a very well respected line of argument.

Ben

Glad to see you completely understand my entire world view, geopolitical ideology, stance on philosophy and the like (all from reading a few sentences on a news thread.)

Wow! That's a really great trick. You must be an absolute master at reading between the lines Ben. Or, should I say ..... jesus perhaps?

Touché you sneeky deity!

Chad, tell that to the Muslims; they will behead you.

Faith isn't a plague, it's how some people exploit faith that is the real crime.

Actually, it is the way the faithful follow demagogues that is the real problem. Somehow, the faithful seems to suspend their powers of independent thought and allow themselves to be led by the power-hungry -- that is the real issue of religion and its exploitation.

chad-1841583, thanks for offering evidence of your viewpoint. You are very adept at upholding your principles of empiricism and naturalism.

On the other hand, I am having a devil of a time trying to comprehend how the statements

Yet, we are still plagued with the headlines of varying primates killing their fellow primates because one group doesn't believe in the same form of mythology as the other. ... My god! How long must we suffer this unbearable plague of faith?

imply anything other than the view that removing "false mythology" will remove the plague of faith.

Ben

Well, I'm confused on your confusion?

I'm not sure how else to put it.

Maybe, let's take "religion" out of the equation.

Blind-faith and devotion erodes critical thinking and rational discourse from our societies. It's not a "war on religion" we need my friend. It's a crusade to spread reason. I actually find a great deal of beauty behind certain aspects of religion (especially the aesthetics behind some philosophical views), but that doesn't mean I need to lie to myself about the nature of the world ... and our lives for that matter.

Where you've assumed to much is in the "militancy" of my atheism and my views on the transcendent and the numinous (principles that every atheist happens to share within the human condition by the way). The point I was getting at is our duty to separate these beautiful concepts from the superstitious and the supernatural.

Therein lies the cancer of faith. The cure, being our ability to embrace what "we don't know" (which is quite a bit), without lying to those within a weakened state of believing "we do."

Chad, how do you explain all the religions under the sun living in the United States of America, without bloodshed?

I think the real problem, is uneducated Muslims hanging on every word the Clerics and Mullahs say; they have no access to the news of the world, all they know is what is told to them.

There you go again, Marie, painting a rosy, "In America everything is wonderful" picture. Do you know hate crimes against Jews and Muslims are rising? This involves both crimes against property, such as desecration of religious structures, and actual physical assaults. In America everything is fine if you are a Christian, Marie. Wake up.

chad-1841583, I hope you realized that I was affecting confusion, as I was affecting praise in my original post.

You believe that the elimination of "faith" will improve humanity. I believe it will have absolutely no impact. The primate-on-primate violence evidenced in emergency wards, a battered women's shelters, etc. are not "faith-based" or due to inter-"faith" clashes.

That is not to say that "faith" does not cited as a reason for some acts of aggression. But the difference between the reason that someone uses to justify an action and their actual motivation is something for cognitive psychologists (and sociologists, when the conflict is between societies) to unravel. So far as I know, sociologists tend to pin wars on competition over resources and similar motives, rather than "faith"-based motives.

Ben --

You would be correct if I was making the blanket statement that religion is the root of all evil. Or, one of the even less intelligible "more people have been killed in the name of religion ...." arguments. But, that's not what I claim, or at the crutch of any of my conclusions.

There's a great quote that I think eludes to your comments quite nicely:

"There are good men and there are evil men. Good men will do good deeds and an evil men will do evil deeds. However, if you want a good man to do an evil thing .... it takes religion."

At its best, religion gives really bad reasons to be good when we actually have really good reasons to be good. While I agree if we could extinguish the hatred behind global religion today, there is no guarantee we would come out the other side unscathed.

I would disagree however that it wouldn't be one hell of a first step towards something with even an inkling of hope. It seems like an impossibly long journey, but the longest journey in the world began with one step. And, this is a cause I would think worth such an endeavor.

I also believe that the more and more we learn about compassion/solidarity at the level of the brain and the more we understand the benefits of an altruistic society (advances in science which weren't available to us 50 years ago,) we could become that utopian society you mentioned based on peace, kindness and tolerance.

Chad – you said “Blind-faith and devotion erodes critical thinking and rational discourse from our societies.”
If this is the case, please explain to me how more people identify with a religious sect / faith now than 250 years ago or even 500 years ago, yet our society recognizes and relies on critical thought and rational discourse now more than any other time in recorded history? How is it that we as a society are so scientifically and philosophically advanced and yet still use the preverbal “crutch” of religion? If reason is what will eliminate religion,
why are more people religious today than at any other time in world history?

arodoll --

Well, I guess those stats will be your little secret.

The truth is, people are flocking from religion in droves. Recent and multiple pew studies have shown that those who label themselves as "non-religious," has doubled over the past decade and continues to trend up. Non-believers are the biggest minority in this nation. Non-believers poll higher than blacks, gays and latinos combined, and we are the fastest growing minority as well.

I would also add that while you may not realize this (or wish to), much of the developed world is highly secular with little to no roles for religion played within their political/social policies. I realize we can't even get past trivial topics such as evolution in this country, but another poll showed something like 45% of the populace didn't know the earth revolved around the sun. Sadly, all this does is highlight our own ignorances.

Now, now, everyone. Let's not digress. The discussion is about despicable acts of violence committed by the followers of Muhammad. The Muslims even hate and kill each other. Malaysian Shiite muslims are arrested for BEING Shia, Shia Iran hates Sunni Saudi Arabia.

The Shias and Sunnis have been killing each other since the time of Muhammad's death, ya know, about a THOUSAND YEARS before the United States existed. How silly to think there will ever be any "peace" orchestrated by Islam.

Uh oh. Pull the covers over your heads. The Baptists and Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholics are coming to get ya!!! Mommy!!

Now, watch ten or so of these RECENT videos and then come back complaining about Timothy McVeigh, the Crusades, or some other "events."

http://www.truthtube.tv/search.php?keyword=beheading&type=videos

Chad - I was basing my analysis on world history as opposed to your example of U.S. history but let's start with your example.

Your assessment that people in the U.S. are flocking from religion in droves is not accurate. Yes, religious affiliation is down in the U.S. however it is only down approximately 9% since 1990 and religions other than Christianity are actually growing.
Over 80% of Americans still identify with a religion, making your argument that Americans are flocking from religion a little ridiculous. 8/10 is still a pretty solid contingency.
You are correct that those who have labeled themselves as non-religious has more than doubled, but that still accounts for less than 6% of the overall American population.
http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_briefs/aris/key_findings.htm

Now worldwide, as of 2005, over 75% of the world's population subscribed to one of the five major religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism and Christianity).

From 1970 - 1985, Islam grew by 2.74%, Hinduism grew by 2.34%, Buddhism grew by 1.67%, Christianity grew by 1.64% and Judaism grew by 1.09%

From 1990 - 2000, Islam grew by 2.13%, Hinduism grew by 1.69%, Christianity grew by 1.36% and Buddhism grew by 1.09%.

From 2000 - 2005, Islam grew by 1.84%, Hinduism grew by 1.57% and Christianity grew by 1.32%.

The total world population growth during this time was roughly 1.21%, putting Islam, Hinduism and Christianity in a state of growth since 1970.
http://www.princeton.edu/~bhsu/Hsu2008.pdf
http://www.bible.ca/global-religion-statistics-world-christian encyclopedia.htm

As for your assertion that I don't realize that the developed world is highly secular - I never stated that whatsoever. Secularism's popularity is not implicit with the decline in religion.
In fact if nothing else, religion has blossomed in most secular nations with the exception of Europe.
Many developed countries in Asia, North America, South America, Africa, and the country of Australia have majorities that practice religion yet remain secular societies.

By the way, you think evolution is a trivial topic? WOW!

arodoll --

I'm not sure of your confusion regarding my post? I say "minority" in my response 3 times .... I've never suggested we are in anyway a majority. My point, however still remains unrefuted by your response. We are the largest minority in the country and we are the fastest growing demographic in the country.

On evolution ... I'm doubly confused. It's not that evolution is a trivial issue ... it's a non-issue. It's a scientific fact that is observable, one that predictions can be based upon, and quite a beautiful explanation of how we all "fit" together to boot! Am I to understand your position as anti-evolution as well? If so, I apologize. I thought I was in a discussion with a rational person who appreciated science.

Chad - you said "I'm not sure of your confusion regarding my post? I say "minority" in my response 3 times .... I've never suggested we are in anyway a majority."

I never disputed that you are a minority, in fact I even confirmed your statement so how was I confused? My point, and I used statistics back up my claim, is that the vast majority (over 80%) of Americans still identify with a religion.

"My point, however still remains unrefuted by your response. We are the largest minority in the country and we are the fastest growing demographic in the country." You also said previously "Non-believers are the biggest minority in this nation. Non-believers poll higher than blacks, gays and latinos combined, and we are the fastest growing minority as well."

Well as I stated before, almost 6% of Americans identify themselves as non-religious or without a religious affiliation. I don't quite understand why you are comparing religious affiliation with race or sexual orientation, as they are overlapping population segments, thus contrasting them is nearly impossible. But for arguments sake, let's try anyway. You claim that non-believers are the largest minority in the U.S. and fastest growing minority as well. Just looking at Hispanics (not combining Blacks or Gays), Hispanics make up roughly 15.5% of the U.S. population, almost 3 times as large as the percentage of non-believers. Additionally, Hispanics have increased from 9.0% in 1990 to 15.5% today, a 6.5% increase. Even with non-believers doubling their percentage since 1990 (not in the last decade as you stated) they still increased at half the rate of Hispanics. Since Hispanics alone debunk your argument that non-believers are the largest and fastest growing minority in the U.S, I won't bother combining Blacks and Gays into the mix or any other minority.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hispanic/hispanic_pop_presentation.html

Regarding evolution, I am not anti-Evolution. I simply disagree with your assessment that Evolution is "a scientific fact that is observable". Although I concur that it is a fact species have changed or evolved, the process of how this has occurred (Evolution) remains a theory. Most in the scientific community agree with this analysis. We have conclusive evidence of the patterns of genetic variation, adaptation and divergence however we do not have conclusive evidence for why these patterns occur in nature. Just because Evolution is classified as a theory, does not mean predictions cannot be made based upon it. A great example almost everyone is familiar with is Einstein's theory of relativity. This "theory" is the cornerstone of Physics and Astronomy and is the basis of many predictions within science, particularly those that measure time. Just because Einstein's relativity argument is classified a "theory" does not make it any less significant. My argument regarding Evolution is that the "why" and "how" of the Evolution theory is debatable and rather important, not trivial nor a non-issue as you stated.

Rubbish. Your own tainted, prejudiced and bigoted feelings should NOT be accepted by other uneducated people who would fall victim to your nonsense.

Just,

You do realize, don't you, that a simple substitution describes what is going on here in the US:

The infiltration of political Christianity into our education, our schools, into the hearts and minds of school teachers and into our school books and is extremely dangerous because it produces innocent children who are infected by the version of Christianity that does not accept the other and preaches non-acceptance of Muslims,"

Do YOU get that?

NH...we don't teach intolerance of anyone...all the religions of the world live in the United States of America...and for the most part we get along fine.

Oh, please. Have you looked around at all? Have you been approached on a playground with your children and told they will go to hell if you don't join up? Have you been part of a group that tried to build a house of worship that isn't Christian? Have you supported equality of marriage for all of our citizens?

Come on. Conservative Christians want to dominate America in the same way conservative Muslims want to dominate Egypt. They want all of us to live by their rules. Pay attention, Marie.

NH, you are the one who needs to pay attention; the one instance I have heard of a Mosque being damaged here in the states, the pastor of a Christian church in that town, denounced whoever had done the vandalism, and I believe they also helped repair the damage...it was strange though...it was done at a time no one was there, and the only room damaged was an office...not the actual prayer room.

No...I have never been approached by anyone that told me I was going to hell for anything...certainly not in a playground, has anyone else on here had that experience; and yes, I do support gays, I have many friends who are gay...there are probably people reading this right now that have heard me defend them...let he who is without sin, cast the first stone...I can't say that I have been part of a group building a church...but, there is a Muslim prayer building in our small town...there has never been any vandalism, or any incident at all...I will say this...I have ran into the Muslim women in stores, smiled and said hello...they walk on by like I don't exist...they won't even look at me...I do think that is rude...however, I don't think they will go to hell for it...

Marie, honey, you need to get out more. Maybe where you live everything is fine; maybe you just don't really know what is going on. I HAVE been approached, in front of my children, and told that we were all going to hell. As for gay rights, you do know that more than 30 states are on record against equality for gays, don't you? And this is due to Christian pressure. Just as one example of how wonderful Christianity makes life for ALL Americans...and as for vandalism, just google hate crimes and see what you turn up in terms of attacks on Jews and Muslims.

If it wasn't the Jews it would be something or some other Religion or race. Having lived in 3 muslim nations for extended periods of time Saudi, Lebonan and Bahrainand for a while Iran (Shah regime) I am very familiar with the so called "moderate muslim". I actually trained Iranian naval personal so I got to have conversations on a personal level. And I know I cant make this assumption for all muslims, but the people I did get to know were what I would call moderate and they all insisted the Quran, Kuran, Koran, Qur'ān, Coran or al-Qur'ān what ever you call in was a peaceful book and was not violent. However none of them would openly defend the rights of other religions or people. As a matter of fact most of the men I talked with had very low opinions of others (even other muslim sects) I live in Detroit where we have the largest population of Muslims outside of the Middle East , Dearborn actually has the muslim call to prayer broadcasted over its city loud speakers. And I see a watered down version of this between the Muslims and the Chaldean arabs. Just try and date a woman of either of these groups of people without being a member and you will find out. Funny though if your a male member of those two groups of people you can have sex outside your group you just cant bring her home. Ive been told by many Arab men mostly Muslim that American women are unholy and whorish and that their families would disown them if they knew.

LJP,

Chaldeans are NOT Arabs. They are Chaldeans, it is a different race and they are Christians. Chaldeans are the original inhabitors of present day Iraq, founders of Babylon. And no, the Males are NOT allowed to have sex either. It is strictly held according to the Bible, NO adultry before marriage. And by the way, show me an American woman that is not willing to spread her legs for any guy she sees as a "hunk" and I will show beach front property for sale in Arizona.

There are many American women who will not spread their legs for anyone. Look beyond your point of view and what you have seen and experienced. There is a whole world you know nothing about. I know many American women (Christians) who were a virgin when they got married and have been faithful to that one man. I know many virgins who are waiting until they are married. It's just that some are professing to be Christians and others are professing and living out what the Bible teaches. Big difference. Most of us that call ourselves Christians are putting Jesus Christ to shame and spiritually "crucifying Him all over again because of our sin".

aim-2858454

"And by the way, show me an American woman that is not willing to spread her legs for any guy she sees as a "hunk" and I will show beach front property for sale in Arizona."

This article was about Christian persecution in Eqypt. Did you forget? And "by the way", do you know EVERY American woman that you could make such a disgusting and sweeping statement? You owe an apology to all the American women, including myself, who are nothing like that!

aim...I'm ready to see that beach front property, I am insulted by your comment; I am an American woman, and I assure you I haven't slept with every man that made a pass at at me...I was faithful to my husband all 15 years of our marriage, which ended when I caught HIM screwing one of my so called friends...I am now with a man who loves and respects me; we have been together for 12 years...all of which I have been faithful to him...

@litleJoePeep"American women are unholy and whorish"

Manny Catholic countries think the same; Blame the media. It doesn't take very much to bring an American women to bed. Every country knows that. Look at Hollywood.

Obviously Hollywood is just exactly like the entire population of America, ah, huh...yeah. I am an American woman. I have not and do not sleep with anyone, period. In fact if I was pregnant you'd better check to see if there's a star over my condo or office building, because it wasn't by natural means.

Your not very bright are you? Have you been in a history class before or Human Geography? It comes down it just human nature and how individuals value human life of another and use anything justify killing regardless of it resources, religion, polities or anything else's. Take one away and another will fill in the role.

Ironic you want to preach the same thing you are against.

Mescovic --

I think it's you my friend who should pick up a history/geography book.

Can you tell me my friend .... why is it that the most secular nations are among the most prosperous, peaceful in the world (Insert Norway, Denmark, Sweden and pretty much any other Scandinavian society.) While, the ones that trend towards a theocracy with clashing faiths display some of the worst conditions.

Your self deprecating, faith-liberalist-apologist arguments have worked in the past. But, frankly people are getting quite bored with such a lame excuse for people killing each other.

But chad, you forgot to mention those other secular nations like Russia, Myanmar, Cuba, and North Korea. I could go on. Very prosperous, hey??

Retired Smoker: Nicotine kills brain cells, along with just about everything else. As Mescovic states, politics and religion are interwoven into human history since the beginning. Hoping that they go away accomplishes nothing. Promoting humaneness, literacy, and economic well-being (based on self-sufficiency) would be a start.

dnimerick --

I would offer a response, but anyone classifying N. Korea and Russia as "secular" is showing a deep-seeded ignorance of foreign policy/current state of affairs.

Furthermore, you seem to gloss over my thesis. "Faith" is the central cancer of our being. Whether it be religion, political-ideology, dogmatic, messianic, theocratic, etc.

chad, your post clearly stated that the most secular nations are the most prosperous and you gave examples to back it up. I gave other examples of secular states that are not prosperous to show that it ain't necessarily so.

dnimerick --

Very well.

Let's start with North Korea. Where, everyday the population awakens and gives blind devotion to the "dear leader." By the way ... do you know who the dear leader is? It isn't kim jong il ... it's his father .... and he's been dead for over 10 years. The North Koreans are steep in pure hero worship that trumps any theocratic nation to date. What is secular about this?

The mention of Russia is quite odd considering this nation state is currently progressing on a crusade to implement the Russian-orthodoxy in all it's political/social policies and to put the Russian Orthodox church at the head of all tables ....?

Faith, religion, and prayer should be done in private. Government shouldnt be involved in religion at all. I agree with the sepration of church and state. I am a staunch Christian, and Jesus said prayer was not to be done in public so as to gloat. It should be done in the privacy of your own homes. Live by the word of God on your own.

Chad has it correct that organized religion is one of the causes of the worlds problems. I have come to the realization that organized religion is nothing but a ways to control the masses and goes contrary to what Jesus said. Even Jesus was against the exploitation of religions in his time and often spatted with the high priests.

I believe that the Jesus I know about, from scripture, would be beyond appalled at the actions committed in his name over the centuries since his death.

chad, the hero worship you correctly point out in North Korea does not take anything away from the fact that North Korea is secular and definitey not prosperous. And I am aware of the sudden promotion of orthodox Christianity in Russia, but quite frankly I am suspicious of the motives. The last time the secular government of Russia actually promoted orthodoxy was during World War II under Stalin. Yup. Stalin promoted orthodoxy for a while because he figured that those who would not rally to the state against the Nazi invaders might rally to the orthodox church against the invaders. Once orthodoxy had served Stalin's purposes he tried to crush it but could not competely eliminate it

dnimerick --

You're correct. But, again ignore my central thesis regarding faith and dogma, which suspends rational inquiry and promotes the diminished respect for evidence. This has a great many faces, including political, but none of these can be considered "secular."

Stalin was a staunch atheist. But, did he commit said atrocities in the "name" of atheism/secularism? If you believe so ... how? Atheism is not a belief system. It's not a philosophical ideology or a subscription to any certain political framework.

The problem with Stalin's Russia, was that it was to much *like* religion. A system based on absolutes and blind-devotion to it's leader and it's own set of unalterable dogmas.

Again, none of this can be said to be secular.

Perhaps it's in the definition. The devil's in the details. There are many of us who see atheism as a secular religion. Secular because it does not acknowledge the spiritual. Religion because it does require a certain amount of faith, albeit not of a spiritual kind.

dnimerick,

Well, agree to disagree I guess.

Although, calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color.

In reality, it's a meaningless term. I don't believe in fairies either, but I doubt you would call me an afairiest?

All an atheist is is someone who has studied the religions of the world and found them equally false.

“I contend that we are all atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” -- Stephen Roberts

Good arguments, chad and dnimerick. I am now officially more confused. lol

To me, athiests tend to depend and believe in science and the things we can see, hear, feel, and touch. They are cold to the idea of a spiritual world.

Most of the theories involving the beginning of life are just that, theories, whether its Evolution or Creation. The fact of the matter is, nobody was there and nobody knows. Even athiests have a certain amount of faith in the things they believe in. Faith in science to tell you what really happened is just as much of a crapshoot since science is repeatedly wrong and constantly changing and "evolving". The athiests favorite word.

AZC

It's a shame that's your view on secular/atheists. I can assure you that's a caricature.

I'd suggest looking into recent lectures by Sam Harris. A neuroscientists, Sam is an atheist, but he also dabbles in meditation and enjoys exploring the world of Buddhism.

While I'm an "atheist," I consider myself extremely spiritual. When I look to the heavens and contemplate the vastness of space .... a shiver runs down my spine and I feel something that could rightly be called a "religious experience." The difference is we don't need to lie to ourselves, or ascribe to archaic mythologies in order to define these experiences. It's part of the human condition and innate in all of us.

On science, you're confusing belief with faith. Science is backed up by observation. If we learn more (receive different data-points), our sciences change. Which, in return, makes our sciences better. What science is not, is a set of dogmatic revelations that must be ascribed to. Faith, means you're willing to believe anything ... regardless of the evidence. And, in some cases, *despite* counter-evidence.

Yes but Atheism is Judgement of religion. Religion does not have a"corner on the "spiritual"market!" And the point about the "hero" being more of a "cult of personality" than any religious "mascot" is great point. But N. Korea is NOT a successful entity! In American Culture - we value national success on more than "GDP" as the Maos would have you believe. We are the envy of the world. I travel! They hate us! Everywhere! They hate us with deceiving smiles- as they are in want of our "life!" Of movies! Of AIR CONDITIONING! Of nice clothes! Of DREAMS THAT CAN'T BE SQUASHED BY NON ADHERENCE TO ANY GOVERNMENT POLICY! OF HOPE! ... Russia and America are the "goldmines" of natural resources on this planet! Russia used totalitarianism to "protect" its "value!" America chose "the Greek Christan philosophy - i.e. That a free man will be able to "create" in such an environment and that he may "dream" to stimulate his creations and that this nobility is OUR unique plan. Now China needs oil for its modern "People's War" machine! The Maos are on this page- working hard to disrupt! DIVIDING AND CONQUERING! He very cleverly manipulates all religions - as he sees it as "fairytale" and a waste of time and effort! Get to work CHRISTIAN! YOU CAN DO SO MUCH MORE FOR THE STATE - THAN YOUR FAIRYTALE - CHRIST! ........ He doesn't have foolish Gods! HE IS ANTI GOD! Mao Zedong was a fat pig murderous dictator who makes Hitler look like an alter-boy! He is responsible for more than ONE HUNDRED MILLION DEATHS in his pathetic "leaps!" He has spies who are very busy! They have made it all the way to THE WHITE HOUSE! They are very good at "division!" They want what we got! Can't nuke us ... that would ruin the spoils. No they would rather steal $10trillion in Currency manipulation - to be used to finance and stoke hatred of "suicide bombers!" The MAO is a TERRORIST! HE USES FEAR TO FOOL! He has been at it for 50 years! He is dressed and looks like me and you! He may have a "Texas" accent. He is caught by me and now- if you can learn ..... YOU!

Doing away with religion would be phenomenal. No 9/11, no suicide bombings, no denial of evolution in textbooks, no assassination of abortion doctors, no al Quaida in (insert country here).

Nazi belt buckles said "God is with us". That is most definitely not an atheist statement!

Atheists built the atomic bomb? Seriously, WTF kind of statement was that? The use of the bomb was personally authorized by President Truman, a Southern Baptist. Or do you think he was a closet atheist?

Atheists are not inherently evil. Take your religiously motivated hate-lies somewhere else.

Jim Grey-2067936,

Please climb down. whatswrongwiththeworld said NOTHING about atheists being more evil than anyone else. He was commenting on the uselessness of removing religion, which is the topic sentence of his comment.

As evidence, he pointed to two drastic events that were influenced by "atheist" thinkers, implying that the philosophy behind atheism has as much potential for harm as the philosophy behind religion.

As far as how atheism is tied to the invention of nuclear weapons, I think he was referring possibly to Enrico Fermi, J. Robert Oppenheimer, and possibly Einstein and others working on the project. At least this is an alternate viewpoint to yours that you should have considered before responding.

As for the 9/11 attack, there is no guarantee it would not have happened. If you know anything about the "justification" of the attack (and the previous attacks on the Trade Center), you will know that it was an attempt to strike at our financial center. Enough differential in power or prosperity could cause people to do extreme things (or so says Sociology).

@ Ben Birdsey "whatswrongwiththeworldsaid NOTHING about atheists being more evil than anyone else"

whatswrongwiththeworld said"non-religious Nazi's used that ultra-intellectuals word's to cary out a mass murder like the world has never seen. Atomic bomb anyone? Oh thats right. Atheists built it......"

He earlier called Nazis atheists. This is the second time he said atheists built the atomic bomb. If those aren't pathetic attempts to smear atheists, what are they?

And Ben, what was the reason the terrorists attacked our financial center, if not because religious fundamentalists hated our way of life?

And for the record, I'm aware of Oppenheimer, Einstein, and Fermi - as well as thousands of others who worked on the Manhattan project who were NOT atheists. To paint these people evil as whatiswrongwiththeworld is trying to do is pathetic.

The "philosophy" behind atheism is there is no God. No more, no less. No atheist ever strapped on a suicide vests, or flew a plane into a building.

As a comment to an article describing Christian anger for Muslim violence, painting atheism as evil is almost funny.

They cant complain, as a matter of fact they have always kept it low key. History show the violence of the Muslims and their tolerance in the past. I also lived in Puerto Santa Maria in southern Spain, where you can see the influence of the Moors and that was centuries ago. The Christians learned that to survive they had to be quiet.

TadTXDem, in regards to the Ground Zero Mosque controversy...Muslims have historically built mosques to commemorate their victories over the infidel. This proposed structure two blocks from Ground Zero is a victory mosque and nothing more. That's why they are so adamant about that site and no other. In fact, the name Cordova is taken from a victory mosque built in Spain on the site of what was once a church.

People seem to be going off on so many rabbit trails in their comments. It's as though people read different articles and commented about them in the same place as everyone else! This article was about a Muslim suicide bomber who blew himself, or herself, up just as Copts were leaving a service at their church. It was about the pent up frustration that finally boiled over into some admittedly not so Christ-like behavior. This frustration is founded in consistent mistreatment, unequal treatment and persecution of the Copts that is, indeed government sanctioned.

The following is taken directly from persecution.com, a website which follows persecution of Christians around the world. This is the truth about the Copt's situation in Egypt. Let your comments focus on that.

Egypt was predominantly Christian during the first centuries after Christ. By the mid-seventh century, Islam had
conquered the country, but thankfully Egypt’s Coptic Christian church never disappeared.

Category: Restricted Nation
Religion: Muslim 86.52%, Christian 12.98%
Ideology: Islam
Head of State: President Mohammed Hosni Mubarak

The country’s constitution gives preference to Muslims. Christians are treated as second-class citizens, denied political representation and discriminated against in employment. On June 13, 2009, a Cairo judge denied a Christian convert’s request to change his religious status on his identification card from Muslim to Christian. The man, Maher El-Gohary,
has been attacked on the streets and has received death threats for legally pursuing his case. In addition, several riots have occurred between Coptic Christians and Muslims. Unprovoked, three Muslim men stabbed a Coptic Christian man as he left a wedding service, sending him to the hospital with severe internal injuries. On May 9, 2009, a car bomb exploded outside of St. Mary Church, a holy site for Copts.

So what! All that says is that YOU BLINDLY BELIEVE YOUR SOURCE! And THIS IS AMERICA! WE CAN SAY WHATEVER WE WANT TO - MR "CONTROL FREAK! As for your argument? What an idiot! So your source want you to believe that "the poor Christians" are being discriminated against by "the evil" Muslims! NO @!$%# SHERLOCK! IT IS EGYPT! That is where your hero "BUSHYMAO" takes people to torture them! If you are a Christian in Egypt? YOU ARE @!$%#ED! WHY DO YOU CARE? You should go there and "fight" for them! And stop thinking that you are in control! Soon enough - you will have enough trouble controlling your own bowel movement! Listen "mr Know-nothing" - I am trying to expose covert motivation for all such activity. This means I must inspire these fine and highly intelligent people to "think beyond the trees and find the FORREST!" This asks all to entertain "covert" motive! Do you understand what that means? If we were talking about "the Kennedy Assassination" and I was trying to get others to investigate- would you say "Hey - MY paper said that one man did it! CASE CLOSED! Now anyone with anything other than ideas about what we are going to do with Oswald - should cease and talk about what MY paper says - not what comes up naturally!" No!

Trichinosis, anyone?

Also, Muhammad probably copied the prohibition against pork from Judaism.

Ben...yes one of my Jewish friends is so against anything pork you would think he has an allergy to it or something.

Copyrightism!

Blasphemy! Off with there heads!

@Ben Birdsey "Trichinosis, anyone?"

Hey Ben, some of us know to cook our meat.

Welcome the the Crusades, grab your shield and sword.

Also grab a dictionary.

"atheists built the A-bomb" That's unsupported BS.

"Christians used the A-bomb." That's a fact. Or do you think the crew of the Enola Gay were all hand-picked atheists?

Please continue your line of reasoning. You're proving the point that religiously fundamental people of any faith lack the ability to think and reason clearly.

I thought the main builders of the A bomb were German jews and German scientists that left Germany before and at the end of the war? I guess my history books are wrong.

In reference to the Trinity test in New Mexico, where the first atomic bomb was detonated, Oppenheimer famously recalled the Bhagavad Gita: "If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst at once into the sky, that would be like the splendor of the mighty one." and "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."

The Bhagavad Gītā , also more simply known as Gita, is a sacred Hindu scripture, though its philosophies and insights are intended to reach beyond the scope of religion and to humanity as a whole . It is at times referred to as the "manual for mankind"

Jim Grey, at first it seems impossible, but the use of those two atomic bombs saved countless American and Japanese lives because it prevented the invasion of the Japanese homeland. If you read the invasion plans as laid out by General McArthur, there would have been almost nothing left of Japan when we got done.

Jim Grey-2067936, see I told you he was referring to the Manhattan project and not Truman! :)

Now, were you just trying to make a point with the statement "Christians used the A-bomb"? I assume you have often, in the past, deflected criticism of atheism by saying that the USSR was not truly atheist so atheism is not responsible for the repression of religion in Russia following WW2. Please cut others as much slack.

One could argue that the making of those atomic bombs and future subsequent nuclear weapons have prevented World War 3 from ever happening. The movie "Wargames" in the 80s correctly demonstrated the obvious that there's no winner. Therefore having those weapons is a deterent in itself. Why we want to get rid of our arsenal is beyond me.

@Ben Birdsey "Now, were you just trying to make a point with the statement "Christians used the A-bomb"?"

It's called a refutation.

are you retarded or just stupid? in this article neither of the religions are being peaceful.

So, righteous anger with unrighteous but minor destruction is as violent as blowing up innocent people? HATR_HURTER needs to see what's going on...

righteous or not it goes against what the bible supposedly stands for. pointing a finger means 3 are pointing back at you. also, these people were attacking innocents too, the random muslims that were passing by. i see perfectly fine what's going on, a religous group demonizing another one. both groups are using instances to justify violence that they have participated in. both groups are going against what they're religions actually teach.