It's this attitude that will ensure things like this keep happening. This kid clearly had some issues with depression or another mental illness that went undetected and untreated. That doesn't excuse him or any other person from taking a gun and shooting people, but if we started screening for and treating mental illness in this country the way we do other diseases, such as cancer or heart disease, we'd see a lot fewer instances of someone going "crazy" and becoming a mass murderer. Frankly, that's a much better use for our tax dollars than some pointless war in a backward country, and it also makes us a safer, saner nation. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as the old saying goes.

chick - It's this kind of attitude that will keep us from frittering away many millions of dollars of confiscated earnings trying to keep young males from being impulsive and violent. Then we can get behind a societal effort to make skunks not stink.

real packer fan....really....i mean seriously?!?! Your going to say that a disturbed young person, who by the way did not hurt anyone except himself is not a victim here? I sure hope that you don't have kids because with that attitude of yours its likely one of them will be the next gunman.

Oh yes he is a victim of spiritual darkness!

Actually Shawn I have three kids. Two are in college and one in high school. All get great grades, play music and sports and have jobs. They were raised to be responsible for their own actions and not to blame anyone else for their troubles. They learned early on how to deal with adolescent problems, like the zit that won't go away or the boyfriend who does. None of them has ever used a weapon in anger, and I suspect they won't. We make no excuses and take none.

Aside to TJ - nice comment. You've swayed a lot of people. Which side are you on?

Real packer fan, it's quite sad that you blame mentally ill people for being mentally ill and would refuse them the help they deserve. If you instilled the same "values" in your children then they've become just as worthless as you, regardless of their academic or sports achievements.

Packer Fan-

You and your children are fortunate to have a good family, with good direction from you as a parent. Sadly, this is rare and many children are offered no good parenting and do not have the direction they need. Worse yet, we have judgemental folks such as yourself that seem to offer little to a situation like this except unwarranted criticism. Like my mother taught me, if you don't have something nice to say, just don't say it. And in this situation, maybe you should be thankful that things have turned out well for your children, and that they did not suffer from some mental illness that caused problems as it did for this boy.

gia - where does it say anyone involved is mentally ill? Irrational, stupid and impulsive actions are not a mental illness. They're simply weaknesses in human emotions that are acted on much more frequently by young men than any other segment of society.

If it turns out the kid actually is clinically ill, he'll get a break. But to assume he's sick just because he does something we can't rationalize doesn't help anyone, especially the next bunch of victims shot up by some angry kid.

From the sounds of things, this guy was not suspect of having mental illness, and he comes from a wholesome family. Sometimes these things are going to happen, no matter how many ounces of prevention you impose on society.

packer,

The fact that your kids have turned out well is no doubt partially due to the way that you raised them. Congratulations. However, it sounds unlikely that they suffer from any sort of mental imbalance. Not being able to deal with normal adolescent issues does not mean that this kid is a bad person. He sounds like he was probably unwell.

You don't know this kid, or what problems he was dealing with, so who are you to pass judgement on him? People who did know the kid and the family are saying there is something more going on with him. Until I hear more details, I think I will give their opinion more weight than yours.

- real pats fan

packer:

So you think you know all the circumstances that led to the kid snapping?

Did he shoot anyone? Not from what the article says, he didn't.

You don't know what has gone on in this boy's life.

His family may be involved socially and with his scholastics.

It doesn't mean the boy wasn't molested, bullied or maybe even abused by one of his parents.

And I don't care how perfect you think your kids are/were.

People have mental imbalances sometimes, no matter how they are raised.

lobo and pats fan - the original point is that the teacher quoted in the article already was cutting the kid a break without knowing the answers to any of the questions you pose. I'm saying you can't assume the kid is not responsible for his actions just because he does something stupid. Please refute that point rather than arguing against something I never said in the first place.

Shawn - hate to jump in here, but how can you call the shooter the victim? He brought on the gun shots himself!!! A victim is someone that has no control over the circumstances. Yes, he may have been influenced by his mental illness to do what he did, but does that mean you're excused from knowing right and wrong???? HELL NO!!!!!!!

The true victims are those students who were held at gunpoint!!!! Do you know how many kids are going to be terrified to go to school from now on??? Do you know how many of those kids are going to suffer from PTSD as a result of that ordeal??? How many kids are going to sit in class and conceal their cell phones just enough so they have 911 at the ready if needed? How many kids are now going to take guns or knives to school themselves as a measure of SELF defense??? They are never going to forget what happened and now they have to learn to live with it.

BTW, have you ever seen someone try to blow their brains out? Do you think you could live with that image every day of your life?

packer,

I didn't say he is not responsible for his actions. You quoted a member of the community, who knows the family and was aware of something else going on with the kid at school (bullying, maybe? it doesn't say) who said that the gunman is a victim too. You then said, "no he's not". I was responding to that.

Of course, bringing a gun to school and holding students hostage is absolutely wrong. Of course those students are victims. That does not mean that this kid was not also a victim in some way. You don't know what was going on with him, so how can you say he was not a victim, too?

I think as thing fleshes out, the Swat Team will be seen as having over-reacted. They should have gotten a phone in there and talked to him rather than wait for gun-shots.

yankee - everyone is a victim of something. It's called life. Some people deal with setbacks by trying harder, some by giving up and some by lashing out. We shouldn't make excuses for those who choose to lash out or give up or both, as appears to be the case here.

packer,

Yes, everyone faces challenges in life. But not all challenges are equal. My point is that a teacher who knew him said there was a lot going on with him at school. I don't know what, exactly, but it may have been beyond the usual teenage stuff. Maybe it will turn out that his girlfriend dumped him or he had a zit, but maybe he was being tormented.

Are you one of those people who can only see things in black and white? Do you really not see how this might fall slightly into a gray area? Anyway, I am not making excuses for his poor choices. There is a difference between making excuses and feeling compassion.

Sometimes you can have the greatest parents in the world, but they only contribute to the person you become and don't determine it. The friends your children have, the experiences they have, the people they meet, the schools they go to, the town the live in, etc. all are a part of the individual.

I'm not discounting parents, but lets not pretend that being a great parent automatically means your children will be perfect. Also don't pretend that children are dumb. They can mask their depression just as well as an adult who goes to work every day and hides it.

What we need to do is attempt to correct as many social issues as we can while providing as much support as we can to reduce the number of these cases that we see. Is he a victim? I don't know. Who determines if he is?

Lastly, lets try not to have the ego of: I'm a great parent, my kids are wonderful, therefore being a great parent means your kids will be wonderful. You don't really believe you have that kind of power do you?

Mental illness, childhood abuse, the genes etc are no defenses when they try to harm others. Looking at crimes in that light, ALL criminals, big and petty, murderers and cheats, have some reason that drove them to commit it and to say that they are victims and that they need to be protected is disasterous to law abiding, compassionate people that learn to handle situations without harming others. People with illness, mental or physical, that results in putting others at such risks as this one, should be taken out of the society they can inflict harm upon.

If people say things like "I couldn't say enough good about the family/the gunman" it seems like he didn't endure any extra-ordinary hardship either. The so-called mental 'illness' is very often the skewed up mentality of entitlement and selfish behavior that should never go unpunished.

Lastly, the comments above are coming down so hard on a parent that has good kids that I believe he has the right to feel victimized and go on some anti-social spree! We keep hearing such maniacal incidents as these as long as comments like the above keep rolling. What a shame!

Robian

Lastly, lets try not to have the ego of: I'm a great parent, my kids are wonderful, therefore being a great parent means your kids will be wonderful. You don't really believe you have that kind of power do you?

Nicely said.....

People with illness, mental or physical, that results in putting others at such risks as this one, should be taken out of the society they can inflict harm upon.

Tes, you are right. However, almost every facility in the nation where the severely mentally ill could be housed and treated (for example, state hospitals) was closed back in the Reagan days, and the inmates turned out onto the streets, where they became and remain a burden on our economy and a danger to the public. Once again, screening and treatment would go a long, long way toward preventing things like this from happening. The "boys will be boys" crap will not.

Yes, I can believe the gunman was a victim. Most victimizers were once victims. I'm not making excuses, it's just the facts. Now, having said that, the gunman must still be tried in court for his crimes and deal with the consequences of his actions.

Yes, he may be a victim, but the majority of victims deal with their pain in other ways and not put so many other innocent people in danger like he did. He's got to be dealt with for that.

I wonder if PackersFan goes to church and congratulates himself on what a fine, upstanding citizen he is. It's the Christmas season and you have a hard heart. Repeat after me, "Bah Humbug."

If this child survives his attempt to either commit suicide by cop, and ultimately from the bullets he fired at himself, there is no doubt he faces serious legal issues, and by the nature of this event may be tried as an adult.

Within the legal system, whether under a juvenile justice system or as an adult, among the many, many actions to take place will be a fairly comprehensive mental health evaluation. Regardless of the criminal proceedings, if the boy needs attention, he will get it.

The preceding discussion seems to be a debate over worldviews. Rather than continue or take sides, here the comments have more to do with the reality of both what this child faces, and aspects of child development that are indeed worth remembering.

Ever since the Columbine shootings, there has been mounting concern with young people carrying out violence at their schools. There have been numerous other incidents since, several with tragic results. Studies of such incidents have reached different conclusions - but have contributed significantly to awareness of, and efforts to halt, bullying. However, not every school attack, planned or carried out, has involved victims of bullying.

Rather, every attack has involved students deeply alienated, a condition evaluated at length by one of the founders of the discipline of sociology, Emile Durkheim. He used the word, "anomie," to describe a state of mind nearly completely detached from identification with self and community - a form of extremely acute depression and dissociation. Combine such feelings with the psyche of middle adolescents and the product is devastating.

One of the reasons there is a juvenile justice system, set apart from that for adults, is that it is necessary to take into account the developmental and environmental circumstances of children. Lest some of the flame throwers start harping about bleeding-heart liberals making excuses for criminals, that is not what this discussion is about. Rather it is looking at why juvenile courts exist and how that may be relevant to this incident.

A 15-year-old typically (not universally) has limited judgement, in particular in respect to consequences. Children of that age tend to think of the immediate, rather than project and evaluate actions into a future. They are influenced by their accumulated experiences and of course have already learned patterns of values and behavior, which may or may not shape their immediate feelings at any given time. Children in middle teens are very often impulsive and thoughtless.

This is partly the reason that juvenile courts exist.

If a child is both alienated and responding to impulsive attitudes, it is dangerous to the child and others. If the lad in this incident survives to face the music, there will be intensive examination of these sorts of factors. Whether in the juvenile system, or treated as an adult, he will certainly be required to face criminal charges. In that process he will be throughly evaluated, both to understand his motivation and intent, and to determine if there are any legally-defined mitigating factors that could affect whatever punishment is meted out. And as needed, he will get mental health help.

Fortunately for the brave students and teacher he terrorized, that help is already being delivered.

RanRan, you said: "...the Swat Team will be seen as having over-reacted. They should have gotten a phone in there and talked to him rather than wait for gun-shots."

So did they overreact by waiting for the gun-shots? Sorry, I'm confused. However, if the liberal media follows trend, SWAT will certainly be blamed for the young man's injuries. Either they waited too long, or they barged in too early. Incredible, Ain't it? The criminal is never at fault in America.

real packer fan, your error is that you fail to consider the fact that one can simultaneously be a victim *AND* be responsible for performing a terrible act. This boy has done something terrible and he will rightly have to face the consequences for that. However, the problem with your point of view is that it eliminates the possibility of improving our ability to identify the factors that may predict something like this.

It's all well and good to say "people are responsible for their actions" -- that is not in dispute. But if we end our analysis right there, we will never learn what led this boy to decide to do something like this. In other words, your view is completely REACTIVE -- you wait for someone to do something awful and then hope we all join in and talk about how awful the person is.

I would prefer that we try to determine exactly what troubles this boy was facing. Did he do this because of bullying? Abuse? Mental illness? Some combination of those? Something else?

If a person reaches the point of choosing to shoot themselves, it's obvious that they are deeply troubled in some way and that the rest of society failed to recognize those troubles in advance and help the person find a way out. Society failed this boy and, in that sense, he is a VICTIM.

I have to gree with Real Packer Fan to a point. We got to stop raising our kids in a protective bubble and blame everyone and everything for their problems. God forbid little Johnny should feel bad about getting that F on his math test or that he got detention for cutting class. Certainly it's someone else's fault. Right? Not in my house. You screw up, you pay the piper and in some cases you're going get a double whammy betweeen me and your school.

You get into a fight with your buddy, you fix it. I'm not talking to his mother to make nice unless it's escalating toward criminal levels and then your butt is mine if it's your doing. If you don't want to learn to do your own laundry then I hope you don't mind wearing the same underwear all week ( yes my kids are old enough to wash clothes). How can kid fix all of that? It's simple; do your homework, go to class, learn to get along and wash your dirty draws. Period.

Today too many hover parents want to do everything for their kids and when it's time for them to face reality by themselves, they don't know how to handle it.

Some kids can sadly be afflicted with mental illnesses and their going to do what the voices inside their head tells them no matter what. It's hard to always tell if it's nature or nurture. Where this falls is hard to say at this point. Either way it's very sad it was allowed to get to this point.

great post, only if it had some kind of point or tie to the issue!!! Great your kids do laundry, woo hoo!!! Do you want an apple for your hardwork? You allow your kids to fight? I see a problem with that, VIOLENCE!!!

Caroline G: God forbid a parent stop to ask *WHY* a child is having a problem. The solution to absolutely every problem is to lower the boom and punish, punish, punish, right? That's a cop-out for parents that want to avoid the responsibility of UNDERSTANDING their kids and INVESTIGATING the issue. Yes, kids sometimes need to be punished for wrongdoing but there are also times when the problem really IS due to something beyond the child's control.

When I was in school I often did get "F's" on math tests due to circumstances that really WERE beyond my control. Thank God you were not my mother because it doesn't sound like you would have spent even 5 minutes trying to understand the problem.

Carolyn - and some kids have to deal with issues quite a bit more devastating than breaking p with their crush. I'm young enough to remember my parents saying more than once "what do you have to be stressed about" when I was in High School, and got an ulcer. It's amazing how quickly we forget, once we move into adulthood, just what really is going on in the lives of kids this age. Things happen that even adults have trouble dealing with, and we expect a child to take it in stride?

I want to know why he would do something like this,, in fact I think that knowledge is more important than whatever punishment he receives, because if we actually used it we might make all our lives a little bit better and safer.

If our current gun laws had been enforced he would not have had two handguns. It is illegal for anyone under 18 to have a handgun. Find out where he got them and prosecute for either giving them to him or not having them secured. Enforcement of our current gun laws would go a long way toward preventing this kind of thing. Adding new unenforced laws will not.

So did they overreact by waiting for the gun-shots?

If 'waiting' was their only plan then it was a case of bad tactics.

The schools intercom was working (I assume) - there is no indication in the story that they tried to talk the 15 year old down.

This doesn't look like great police work. That's what I'm saying.

maybe this kid had been bullied long enough. I'm not saying that is the case but it could of been. I have a 12 yr old son who goes to a rural middle school and he is a straight A student for three years now, he is also the smallest kid in his grade. He also has earned a black belt in karate but he isn't a fighter, just not in him. He gets bullied all the time and although we have had a couple of sit downs with the principals it still goes on behind the scenes. God help the kid who ever drives my son to these extremes.

flbikerchic, like it or not there are some serious civil liberty issues involved with screening every teenager. Psychology is a long way from being a real science, and all too often kids can end up being needlessly exposed to the risk of medication. This is a sensitive issue with me because I do have a teen suffering from psychotic depression and he is on some heavy duty meds (he is also not able to attend a brick and mortar school right now, I must lock up all sharp objects, etc.) There's no other option than drugs for him at the moment, but the potential side effects are terrifying. Trust me, way too many kids would end up being drugged if we screened them all in a school setting. This is already the case for young kids and Ritalin--want to try Risderdone?!? My son is on antipsychotic drugs because he was in a mental hospital for three weeks under constant observation, not because some unqualified teacher or "school psychologist" (the most incompetent of psychologists) thought something was amiss.

The fact is he is not a victim he was the perpetrator period. The issue here is not whether this kid had a good family or not as it appears he did from his school mates accounts and community accounts. He was not bullied or the recipient of social networking taunts. The issue here is society and how in the last 20 years children have been raised to believe that they are all special and that they should never be disappointed and everyone gets to play. Even when little johnny really can't play football because he has zero hand eye coordination parents have forced teams whether they be school affiliated or not to let all the kids play. The bad thing about this is first they don't get any sort of reality and secondly may be missing out on doing something they are good at because daddy and mommy want a football star. You don't see parents demanding everyone gets to be on the chess team or debate team...but they do insist all the kids play football or baseball. Because mommy and daddy want a football star who is going to be rich to take care of them. When instead they may very well be stiffling a gifted musician or dancer or scientist. If your kid stinks at something do not force it on them or the other players let them explore what they are good at. These kids have been raised with absolutely no coping skills and the belief that they are not responsible for themselves that it is either their parents or society that is responsible for them. They seem to have the 'entitlement' attitude that they will be happy and rich and nothing will ever be amiss in their lives. While trying to shield your children from these things in life you have done them a serious disservice as they now have no idea how to deal with the fact that they are going to be disappointed sometimes and that yes they someday will need to be held accountable and responsible for themselves, their lives and their own actions. We have an entire generation and now almost 2 that have no idea how to cope and therefore have no idea how to teach their children to cope and be responsible and accountable. When I was in high school 25 years ago there were not all these teen suicides, shootings etc. People try to act like there was no bullying......well hate to burst your bubble but lots of people got bullied myself and my brother included. I can guarantee bullying is nothing new it is just that children have been raised in a protective bubble and been given absolutely zero tools to deal with it and any type of rejection. We were raised to learn to handle it and realize that the person picking on us was just insecure and was lashing out because of it. Parents need to get back to parenting your child not putting them in a plastic bubble and also not expecting that it is society or the schools job to discipline and raise your child. You can not be a parent and also your childs friend it won't work and they will have no respect for you. I hear parents all the time whining about how this or that child dresses and they try to act as if they have no control. Last time I checked 12 year olds don't have jobs and can't buy their own clothes therefore what little susie is wearing is fully under your control. You also can't say well 'susie will feel bad because all her friends dress that way'. Well tough luck if susies friends were all bringing guns to school you might want to say something. It starts with the basics, you are the parent, they are the child and parenting is YOUR JOB. Start doing it and maybe these kids would not be so messed up.

Yeah, Bonnie and Clyde were victims too....blah, blah, blah. We are all victims.

gia (#1.7)-

would refuse them the help they deserve.

I don't believe that real packer fan was suggesting that the people should not get mental health treatments if they are necessary. However, why is the onus on the American taxpayer to pay for the mental health care? It is like any other health issue. Is the rest of society responsible for paying for your flu shot, your neighbour's hysterectomy, my bunion removal, etc?

RanRan, OK. But you must agree that once shots are fired, they MUST go in. I agree with you, just didn't see how the Swat overreacted...maybe, they should have reacted sooner. However one views it, it was, indeed, an avoidable tragedy.

Quite a stretch, grunt.

Fairly easily, given well trained screeners. People planning to do harm tend to behave in odd ways. You and I would miss them, but a trained Israeli screener would not.

My biggest question to the Gov. When are we going to learn that Guns should not be sold out there! Teen agers have used them many F.. times and took many lifes but NO NO NO!! BECAUSE WE MAKE PROFITS AND IT'S AGAINST CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT WE SHOULD KEEP THEM OUT THERE.

I bet you anything!!! if it was the son of some Govern. trapped in that school with Gun in his Head, that state gun law will change immediately.

Okay here we go...now watch the tree hugging obama-lovers start to clamor again for gun control using this as a backdrop for their terrorist marches.

More and more suicides are trying to say enough is enough. We can have dialog in his country and within our social communities without the insults. Not everyone is strong for a fight with words. Not everyone comprehends information rationally.

Yes, we have the right to say what we feel under the constitution, but we must be responsible in the way we present our case. Winning an argument at all costs is the wrong attitude. Our opinion is as important as the next. Suicidal people at not controllers like those who push them to their limits till they snap.

Parents loving your kids means spending time with them, keeping an eye on them, involving them in wholesome projects and giving them a sence of importance about themselves and others around them.

I pray for the family members and friends he leaves behind as they sort all this out.

Max, you slack jawed hippy. Get back to your Obama love rally, they miss your stupidity.

I find it in very bad taste for the author of this story to give the teacher so much credit for keeping the shooter and students calm. The entire story shows the shooter wasn't interested in talking or hearing from her. The story also talks about how other students talked with him and even made him laugh. The students are the real heroes here. Case closed

Hey Max-the right to bear arms is there not to protect us from each other it was put in there to make sure the government could never imprison and force the people to follow blindly......which apparently you are already. Why don't you ask the people of australia how they feel about the gun control laws imposed there.......the only people that have guns are the criminals and the government.

You take away a person's guns and you take away their means to protect themselves properly from the evil elements of our society.

Okay here we go...now watch the tree hugging obama-lovers start to clamor again for gun control using this as a backdrop for their terrorist marches.

On the contrary, I'm gonna say these kids need higher caliber weaponry. There is no reason he should have survived his gunshot wounds to make it to the hospital, especially since he meant to kill himself! Let's ramp up the firepower. As a matter of fact, let's arm all the kids so that if someone tries to pull this again, they can all defend themselves!

I mean, there is obviously no gun problem here. And don't let the fact that he could have killed a large number of people tell you any different! The only problem is not enough guns. We need more. We need armed guards at schools, we need armed teachers, armed janitors, armed bus drivers, the works! So the next time some punk kid tries to pull this, we can have a full fledged shootout!

More more more!

There are a lot of adult privileges we don't extend to minors. Guns may be legal, but is it legal for a teenager to own one or for a parent to let his kid have access to his?

To All : Guns kill people!!! there is no justification!! you get it now!

To get technical, I think its the bullets that are the problem, unless you actually hit someone with the gun.

A church group in Peshtigo were praying for the students' release when they received a text message saying they were safe, the Press Gazette said.

Tim Harwell, a youth pastor at the church, told the paper: "As a matter of fact, we were praying at that very moment for the release of all the kids, said 'amen,' and then someone read the text message. We all collapsed."

Oh man.... I mean it's great that the kids got out unhurt and all that... But for these people to hang their hat on that happening not only because of their prayer circle, but even on schedule with the ending of their praying... is just bible thumping silly...

Another incidence where coincidence is mistaken for evidence.

You got that right V

Or V...

It could be evidence mistaken as coincidence.

Have a good one.

V and the vons :

You are just more Godless souls. No wonder this county is sinking.

Have faith

just read

Or V...

It could be evidence mistaken as coincidence.

You mean the way creationists regard evolution?

Have a good one.

You too.

Centered

V and the vons :

You are just more Godless souls.

Hey thanks, way to "judge not" there...

Actually I'm not an atheist... so I'm not Godless... just not YOUR GOD(less)... I'm more agnostic, and I just reject orgainzed religion with all my little heathen heart.

No wonder this county is sinking.

Ha... you think it has to do with Santa in the sky being angry with people not believing in him? And nothing to do with the the corrupt politicians selling out this countries soul to corporations, and pushing the middle class down into poverty? There used to be 3 classes... upper, middle, lower... now there are two... rich and poor... Politicians on BOTH SIDES are corrupt, but the Republicans are so plainly in bed with the corporations it's obscene.... GREED is why this country is sinking.

Have faith

I do... just not in religion or politics...

We are told by Jesus not to judge our brothers or sisters. Judging those that aren't isn't a bad thing.

We are all sinners. Some of us are saved by Grace.

Thank you Country girl, couldn't of said it better myself :)

countrygirl78

We are told by Jesus not to judge our brothers or sisters. Judging those that aren't isn't a bad thing.

Wow! I've never heard a Christian just come right out and admit to the hypocrisy of the principle before... Who exactly are you're brothers and sisters, and wht is it that would disqualify one from being so? Jesus said "whatsoever you do unto the least of them, that you do unto me"... I doubt he would exclude, and judge the way you do.

We are all sinners.

No we are not... if you want to believe you are a sinner that is fine... but do not make that claim on my behalf... I do not even recognize the word sin as valid, let alone the accusation.

Some of us are saved by Grace.

Oh lucky you... must feel nice to believe you are something that others are not... in an exclusive club so to speak...

The Bible also states, "Thee shall not kill, To honor they mother and father, but people do it every day. Does Jesus love these people? By all means, yes, but a person who kills himself or others shall burn in hell. Athiest are the first to state there is NO God, nor do they believe in any religion. That is their right to do so in this Country, but most people that sin, always, in one way or another to ask to be forgiven from our Father. If you choose not to do so, it is your right, but it is a right no one can take away from me. This young man was trouble in a way no one seems to understand, at this point. It brings to mind a saying, "Children learn what they live." Somewhere in this young man's lifetime, his life was altered to the dark side. My guess it involved a relationship that went bad. After all, that is one area a parent usually in not tuned in to. As I said, it's only my guess, but he did take a trip to the dark side somewhere, sometime, not long before his death.

Actually, the Bible in it's original context, the commandment is "Thou shalt not murder"

its called mental illness - something that if you had in jesus's time you would be considered controlled by demons the devil - -something today that can or could be helped with treatment and medication - all these religious wackos should should stop talking and praying it does no good - it just makes them feel they are doing something - no one is listening - just their nut job partners in insanity - they are all praying and this kid blows his brain out - great outcome - how do you know he( or his family) did not follow your precious jesus- and we need the freakin bible to tell us it is wrong to murder - yeah

Hey Countrygirl....

How do you plan on increasing your flock when you THINK you have a right to Judge someone who is not in Your Church... You will find your NUMBERS Decreasing... NOT GROWING!!!

JUDGE ON....... LOL LOL LOL LOL!!!

Countrygirl had good intentions, but if we have switched to the subject of judging and not the tragedy at hand, then I'll try to enlighten you on Biblical judging. We are to discern between right and wrong...yes, judge. We may even judge another as wrong or sinful (whether in or out of the church). What we are not to do is pronounce sentence or condemn. That is God's job. That's why He said, "with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged". Then if you read the context of Mathew 7, you'll see that it was a critical judgment of another, when the person speaking or judging had a bigger, more noteable problem.

In Conclusion: Discern for yourself what is right and what is wrong (my basis is the Bible), judge accordingly; but don't go around condemning (i.e. go to hell; you're an idiot; etc...) or applying motives (that you cannot possibly know) when you yourself are a sinner. (And for any who might be wondering, I include myself as one of those sinners.)

And we must ALL give an account.

I don't think I'll ever get how folks think that such assertions are right, moral and ethical, Marco.

We are not evil, corrupted or flawed beings in need of a human sacrifice so that a divine being can forgive the children of a man of clay and a woman of bone for the rather benign crime of being beguiled by a talking serpent.

We should be culpable for our own successes, failures and no one can forgive us any indiscretions we may have caused others...other than those we have offended.

No human scapegoat can do so, nor should do so.

Peace to all, be good to each other and be safe.

I'm a former high school student. I grew up playing video games, listening to "defeatist" music, and did drugs (marijuana, alcohol, lsd). Now I make six figures, own my own home and am on top of my mortgage unlike many Americans, donate regularly to charities, am in excellent health, and have great friends. I quit the drugs pretty much right after high school because I wanted my career, but still play video games and listen to "defeatist" music. I think there may be a flaw in your reasoning somewhere.

Janet-303386 - I appreciate your knowledge on the subject and agree with a lot of what you say, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as video games and music. I've been out of high school for ten years now but I remember back to high school that all though I was extremely active in school activities and sports I still suffered from depression. I as well never abused alcohol or drugs. I think the important thing you touched on is how to handle emotions. Millions of high school kids suffer through depression but a vast majority don't know who to turn to for help.

My saving grace was the minute my grades started to slip my parents took notice that I was changing. I have a very strong relationship with my parents and I think a lot of it has to do with I knew they were there for me when they realized I was struggling. The next step forward was one of many conversations with a school counselor who was not my counselor but an educator who noticed something. With his help and my parents help I was able to enjoy high school, graduate from college and get a good job all while playing video games and listening to crappy music.

I believe as a society we need to stop blaming video games and music and start creating a separation between reality and entertainment. How do we do that? I believe the answer is more parent activity like mine took in my life. I know a teacher stated in the article that the family was involved with everything but the kid clearly had an issue. Either the kid is mentally ill and his only choice is hospitalization or the parents or a teacher really missed something because happy kids don't just take their friends hostage.

"The single biggest problem for kids today is too much computer communication and texting."

Janet,

I completely agree with your statement, except for the part that it is isolated to kids and that it is limited to computers and texting.

Society as a whole communicates horribly through all forms of media. Just look at these forums we use. We say things to total strangers that most would never say face to face. Electronic media allows us to communicate in such a sarcastic way it distorts reality. Now I guess I will sit down and have a big slice of Hippocratic pie. But, to all those that might read this, "truly have a great day".

Dear Bertfw, for the most part, there is NOT a flaw in Janet's reasoning. The majority of students which Janet describes turn out just like Janet says. I believe statistics will prove this. You just happen to be one of the oddballs.

In the neighborhood that I just moved out of, it was exactly like Janet says. I would add reading to the list of things that children need to get involved in. And I would go one step further than Janet...get rid of the TV. You might not believe this, but you can actually live a full and meaningful life without one. Get your kids into books instead.

In my former neighborhood, I heard the same thing over and over and over again from kids..."I don't like to read." And it was those same kids who were out running around the neighborhood every day looking for something to get into. And most of them were way too young to be out on the streets.

Anyway, back to the article. There absolutely was something going on with that boy that nobody knew about or he would never have behaved like this. I hope he lives to tell his story so we can hear what REALLY went on in his life.

galaxyJ - I guess that makes me an "oddball" too then. Everyone is different in their own unique ways. Quit trying to develop a formula to make everyone conform to your uniqueness.

I'm an oddball too. 32, wife, two children, debt free, sales manager for a very large company. My favorite Christmas is still 1985 when I got my nintendo. I still am a gamer and listen to "defeatist" music. I work hard and play hard and alot of my successful friends are exactly what you describe. A bunch of "oddballs"!!

If this kid had killed some of his hostages, some of you would be singing a different tune. I do not view him as a victim. I do however view him as someone who is in need of some intense physiological help. I hope he gets it.

That's an interesting theory there, Janet. I guess I'm another of these oddballs. I actually wrote many of my high school papers drunk, high, or both. My parents didn't care, but I did; *THAT* is why I succeeded. Having more involved parents would have helped the situation without a doubt. However, it's each individual's decicions and actions that determine their own outcome. This boy had a great, involved family according to all first hand observers. Perhaps he was suffering from a mental illness, but we don't know that. None the less, the only place to point a finger in this situation is squarely at the gunman.

Bertfw...What about the rest of us out here who did it like you did...righteously...or would that be self...righteously? We who raised our kids "right". We encouraged sports and taught them an appreciation of the arts. We banned video games and music that we thought was sub-standard...just to have one of those well grounded kids commit suicide. How do you explain that? People who appear to have all the answers and have a plethora of experience and knowledge may still not get it "right". I personally don't believe anyone has all the answers, or your way would work for everyone!..."time and unforeseen occurrence befall us all". Another esteemed saying might fit here also..."pride goes before a fall"!

@Janet

Nothing against you or to say you are wrong, but there is more to it and its more complicated. Each kid's need is different. Each child has different needs. me, I was a depressed kid all through school and into college. I never drank, never did drugs, hell I never even smoked. I went to school, went to work, went home and studied. I also was active in clubs, band, yearbook, and the ski and basketball teams. I thought about killing myself many times back then. My parents took a very active role in my life, but they couldn't comprehend what went on in my mind. No adult could. I saw the world in a very different light. No 2 kids have the same needs so what works for one wont work for the other.

You might have a point with the wireless communication... but "defeatist music"? It's been discounted so many times that that statement is ridiculous. There are millions and millions who listen to such stuff, and a small handful that do something strange... you might as well chalk it up to religion or eating tuna fish or Sesame Street.

Music, video games, movies....are all just a cop out for bad parents. I grew up watching Nightmare on elm street, and Friday the 13th....listened to gangster rap, and heavy metal...playing video games and watching wile e coyote try to kill road runner every Saturday morning and Elmer Fudd shootin at bugs and daffy all day long....give me a break.

I dont think it is an anomaly, that I turned out this way...and my parents were abusive at best, so tell me why I am non-violent...have never picked up a gun, knife or any other weapon, have never been violent to anyone...or anything for that matter.

I have to agree with Bert...all of these things are not to blame for the way children act out, or the adults they become, the crimes that are committed. You have to be a serious sociopath not to be able to distinguish fantasy and games from reality. The parents are to blame for not teaching responsibility, empathy, love, respect, and that moderation is key to many things.

And now a days video games actually teach skills like reading, math, problem solving, critical thinking, etc. So while they are not all appropriate for every age group there are appropriate games for every age and these games can actually help children as opposed to hurting them...again, its all on the parents. If you dont want your child to listen to that then dont buy the CD, dont want them to dress like that then dont buy them the clothes, dont want to watch that then dont get those channels or dont buy those movies...Yeah sure kids have friends, but a well rounded, well adjusted, well educated child will not fall for peer pressure...its a myth...just another cop out

Janet-303386 I'm a retired high school principal. The single biggest problem for kids today is too much computer communication and texting. They don't know how to communicate face-to-face or how to handle emotions. Their peers and culture use music and video games of violence to handle their problems.

What you are overlooking is the fact that in the work force adults are facing the same issues. How often does teleconferencing take place? We do buiness with people that we will never meet face to face. Instead of talking to the person in the next office/cubicle we will send an email. When is the last time you sent someone a handwritten letter? How many hands off school teachers, administrators are there? Please tell me that not ONE teacher/administrator at that school saw this young man had problems?Instead of focusing on the 3.8-4.0 students and ignoring the struggling ones, how about paying attention to your whole class. And don't be shallow enough to try and blame video games/movies/music for problems that start and stop with the individual. The next time you see someone that needs help, try helping them instead of using some biased media fueled rant.

Now I make six figures, own my own home and am on top of my mortgage unlike many Americans

You're not suposed to count the zeros after the decimal point~

I am a retired public school student. From my experience, I would say, sorry... it's not the tech that made this kids cuckoo. Echoing the #12, the truth is that the bad guy here is the adults. Kids are herded into classrooms and expected to conform, taught to the test, and largely left to fend for themselves emotionally and spiritually for hours a day. That is the disconnect. School sucks, other kids are casually cruel (at best), the parents can't or won't be there. So of course kids end up loving their games/movies/music. But that is a symptom of the problem not the source.

I'm glad Bert can be the exception and not the rule, but Janet is right. I sat in a communications workshop not that long ago and the most memorable part of the session that has always stuck with me is that "effective" communication is made up of three aspects: the words you use, the tone or inflection in your voice, and the body language of the speaker (visual thing). Body language, believe it or not, was rated as 40%... tone or inflection 30%... and the words you use, the other 30%.

So to Janet's point... when you rely on email or texting, you've effectively LOST 70% of what's considered EFFECTIVE communication.

Today's kids, apparently Bert notwithstanding (or so he thinks), hide behind their keyboard or keypad. Their "reward" will be realized eventually.

By the way Bert, making a six-figure income doesn't make you successful, or a man. It's pretty easy to do, even in today's economy. You might want to shelve your ego.

To all you "oddballs"

I think what Janet meant was that if video games were limited and kids actually participated in sports or learned how to "create" music instead of just listening to it, then these cases would be very rare. There are definitely other factors, but I do agree with Janet's assessment.

Video games and computer and texting are very frequent nowadays that it is silly to think that we should remove them. Computers and video games can be useful learning tools if used in moderation. If a child spends all his time on the weekend indoors playing video games then you're going to get a withdrawn child who doesn't know how to handle his/her emotions.

David...so 6 figures is easy to make? Tell that to all of those who have college degrees who cant make ends meat let alone your 6 figure income.

But I do agree that your income doenst make you successful or any more or less of a woman/man.

I do not make 6 figures and I feel pretty successful, I heck I know I am. Very little debt, new car, nice things, happy family, good frinds and close relatives...thats all the success I need.

To be fair what Janet mentioned is a good thing in general. Spend more time interacting with people and doing activities (go outside, sports, etc.) and you'll probably be better off. And I think everyone can admit some video games, music, and tv shows out there are overly violent.

I guess the thing that bothers me the most is that people blame music and video games. I was a single mother with three children and a father that had no involvement. I allowed my boys to see most any movie, play most any video game, and listen to pretty much all music. I worked full time and often had to work overtime. My son's all grew up with excellent values. My oldest is a model citizen and my youngest serves in the military. Do not use music, movies, or video games as an excuse. The parents may have been perfect on the surface but what actually happened in the home can be whole different thing. The pressures put on a child can be horrific. Let's find out what actually caused his issue and why he felt the need to pull such a stunt before we weap for the family or society as a whole.

Poiting the finger of blame at technology is just plain ignorant. Every new form of media or technology has been the scapegoat for very common socielal problems. Even when books became widely available, it was feared that society would fall apart because everyone would be reading instead of working.

There are to my mind two key issues. First, there will always be a certain percenta,ge of the population that will not deal well with the societal stucture. These individuals may be affected biologically and/or environmentally. The second issue is how a parent deals with the individual personalities of their children. Sometimes children can have entirely different coping skills. For example, I had a cousin that just had everything going for her, attractive, very smart, from a good supportive family, but for some reson she turned to drugs and won't up over dosing at age 19. Her siter and two brothers never did drugs and have been very succesful.

Both my kids have grown up with every new technology available to them and both are doing fine. I do step in once in a while to make sure that they participate in a broad range of activities, from sports to music. And I even allow them to text and play video games.

@Janet Would put money down that video games and music have nothing to do with this situation. It probably has more to do with the mounting stress that is increasing on teenagers and young adults today. Stress for harassment that is rampant today and the lack of protection given to many of these people. Stress from parents who push kids to succeed even if the stress is too high for them. Numerous studies have already shown that the whole "violent video games make violent kids" is a sham. Read Grand Theft Childhood or any of the studies going on at the moment. The music is just a scapegoat. Gamer since the age of five and I guarantee I've been around more gamers/music scenes than you ever actually knew existed. Almost everyone I've been around in these communities are some of the nicest people you could meet. Personally, I think you are just an uninformed/uneducated person (regarding the facts) and just want to slide the blame on something you don't agree with. With that said, take your pandering somewhere else.

The problem with your argument, Janet, is that EVERY generation says that about the next generation. My parents constantly railed on about how my generation's must (AC/DC, etc) was poisoning youth, promoting violence, slothfulness, etc, etc, etc). They were horrified at the films we watched (Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street, etc, etc).

The only difference is that now a new form of media exists (video games) and so today's parents include video games on their list of things that are assumed to poison the young. Yet, you must consider that virtually EVERY boy (and most girls) these days plays video games. That alone pretty much assures that any guy that goes postal and brings a gun to school is going to be a gamer. That doesn't mean we can just point to the games and text messaging as the culprits and be done with it, as you seem to want to do.

The causes of tragedies like this are highly complex and involve many factors such as the easy availability of guns, widespread media attention devoted to the kids that do things like this, depression, cultural acceptance of violence in our society, mental illness, failure of parents and teachers to recognize the warning signs, and -- particularly -- bullying. In most cases like this, the child in question had been bullied mercilessly before the tragedy happened.

I'm another one of those oddballs just not with the defeast music. (Is Johnny Cash or Waylon defeast?). Unfortionatly people we have to remember that we will always have to deal with mental issues. My thoughts go out to this kids family and friends. I hope they can get him some help if he survives.

Janet: "The single biggest problem for kids today is too much computer communication and texting"

As a (former) High School principal, you should know better than to take some random opinion of your own and tout it as fact. What study are you referring to when you state this? Or did you do your own study? Or did you just make some observations you claim to be scientific, then post your opinions since you don't care for text messaging and computers?

How are we to expect our students to learn any sort of reasoning skills if someone in charge (their principal) can't apply logic? I'm not saying all principals can't - that would be silly. But please, if you have an opinion, acknowledge that it's an opinion rather than showering it down as fact on the masses from what you think is some position of power and/or enlightenment.

Good luck to you!

As ridiculously, massively popular as video games are today, I have yet to see any evidence that directly link it to an increase in anything, except maybe carpal tunnel. If anything, population increase, copy-cat syndrome and weak family ties are much more likely to be accountable.

I'd like to say that it isnt the video games or television that induces kids to act this way but parents themselves. Theres a fine line now adays between what an actual parent is compared to just a 'friend' and advisor. When kids aren't communicating with the people that birthed them, they feel isolated, alone. Even in a school environment with support systems ALL AROUND them, the only thing they truly recognize, is how and if people come to talk to them- what do they want from them, why are they speaking to me. America is Isolated in themselves, not because of the technology, but because of our individualist ways.

For everyone who'd like to blame this hostage situation on video games and texting and the internet and television, etc... how does one explain this, then?

http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2010/11/30/5552697-cops-grandma-threw-child-to-her-death-at-va-mall

Violence is not restricted to people who grew up in the modern age with computer communication. It is not restricted to people who played violent video games or watched violent television and movies when they were young. It's just not as simple as you seem to want to make it. And I know that's scary and uncomfortable, but it's also true.

I agree. Kids today don't build treehouses, play king of the hill, build and race go carts, play baseball or football in a field, or fight. All that pent up energy is not good.

I wasn't aware that Hitler played video games and listened to heavy metal

-oh wait.

What u all with Technology insults. It was the kids parents generation that created all this technology and now ur talking it down. The World dosent work that way, u cant agree with something then decid 10 years later :O oh i never liked Technology. when it was u who created it.Suicide is not something people just decide to do usually they think about it for years.

U know whats selfish?? the people who think suicide is selfish. Saying that its right to keep that person on this earth knowing that its killing them to be on it. Did u ever think that a person would commiting suicide? no u wouldnt ur too ignorant to even think that any one u care about would rather get put out of his misery insead of being showered in ur gloryious rays of ignorance to them. Instead u want them to suffer through life . but no u want them to be alive u dont want to feel any pain, or sorrow.

I'm not surprised to hear again that it is a young boy who has comitted a crime, and how nice that a retired Female principal understands why kids like this boy snap. You would think after all the millions spent on our education system that school officials would design education systems that educate the sexes differently. BOYS learn differently than GIRLS, and always will as long as we exist and our history has demonstrated this century after century. Look at how many Females are enrolled in College and do better in School than Males today. This doesn't mean that Males can't do better, it just means that today's education system has been designed to work in favor of Females. Unfortunately, Males are feeling the stress of being left out of receiving a proper education that leads to success.

Janet, I agree with you. But, it is more broad than you know. Last year, I dealt with my marriage almost ending horrifically for the very same reasons. I watched some crazy behavior in my spouse...it started with a Zune and music addiction to things with horrid words he would sing, to texting all these sudden new "friends" he had, to FBing all the time, to drinking to deal with the breakdown of his feelings as a person. When he tried to kill me, had his hands around my neck, and was promising to finish me off, I knew I had to get radical to help him out of this hole. I didn't even recognize this person I had been married to for 15 years. He was completely 180 degrees a different person. The things that came out of his mouth were vile beyond belief. The end result...get rid of FB, get rid of "so called friends" who lack morality/values, dump the evil music, and learn to enjoy life for REAL again. He is extremely happy, he is healthy, and he is back to being the spouse that I have known all those years prior to this strange year. It was strange. Nobody can tell me any different...the Devil was on the prowl, trying to take his soul. I saw it firsthand.

"Spo de o de" - You can't be serious. Claiming lack of success due to gender/race/sexual preference/etc.. Really? As long as people hope to succeed based on applying those scapegoat stereotypes, this country will never move forward. The entitlement mentality of this nation has to stop. It's one of the many things that is ruining us.

This is true Janet. My wife is a teacher and it is just as you say. Usually the parents are against anything the teachers have to say and fight the teachers. And as we see with some politicians like Christie in NJ, there is some anti teacher sentiment in the government too. The fringe lunatics in the Tea Party are also to blame for this negative attitude, but we know they are negative about everything. I don't know why we have this attitude but it really is tragic. A lack of values I guess.

i would have to agree with the part about textin g and face to face com its one the first things we learned in sales class and its bad for business but your wrong about the video games music and movies its not there fualt its the parents fault for allowing young kids to watch these things its the parents fault for not explaining to them none of that is real life its parents fualt for not spending enough time with there kids its also the teachers and school systems fualt back in the day boys would be boys let um duke it out then there homies now its im not going to talk to any one because they pick on me and im come back and kill those mother @!$%#ers see the problem also lies with cocky ass mean students basicly you @!$%# with some one enough and try to force feed them tons of rules and people @!$%# on you every day of your life you break every buddy has a breaking point i would shoot up a school i would beat there ass right on the spot but we need to stop placing blame on the entertamint industry you sound like the taliban people need to open there eyes and realize we need to be better parents spend more time with your kids educate them and teach them its not right to put some one down cause now days if your ass is going to get shot shoulds like these kids wherent fit to survie survile of the fitest argue with me heres my reply point a gun and any one i know i would drop your ass before you could pull the trigger o and let me point out i listen to almost every kinda music i love almost every movie out there i play violent video games i drive fast i spit i chew i drink i smoke weed cigs i never shot up a school i have never shot any one one but of course when i was in high school mother @!$%#er step out aline i beat there ass o and im in college full time i think you people need to come off its the parent and the schools fualt so enjoy getting shot at

Hey Janet I have a news flash for you...

I also played violent video games and listened to "defeatist" music when I was younger, but I am also a college graduate and a "productive member of society"..... I am evidence showing that your conclusion is incorrect. This has little to do with the representation of violence in our culture and more to do with the individual problems of this one student.......

I agree with wholeheartedly wwith the retired principle who mentions that one of our greatest problems with kids is the computer, games of violence on same. I grew up playing sandlot football, baseball and basketball and doing things like exploring the woods, picking berries and oh yeah reading books-there was always something to do, it was fun and the memories of times with other kids is a wonderful thing. Today you can not get a kid away from twitterbng, dittering and whatever and their parents can be just as bad. Kick them all outside for some fresh air and face to face communication.

haha janets just one of those old @!$%#s we all had them in high she probly sounds alittle like this omg porn omg video games omg music omg pot no fun none at all you can ddo anything beside repress your feeling dam it until you have held every thing inside for ever and you go shoot up the school check it out i feel ten times better after i get done shooting up some noobs on black ops or mw2 that i dont wanna hurt any one then if that doesnt work i smoke a bowl and listen to some violent music i relax on being pissed and get motivated @!$%# old @!$%#s her genaration needs to die there what holding back our generation from doing what we want and if you aint going to die soon get out of the way your stuck in your old way



In reply to Janet, Ms. or Mr. High School Principal. Ok Mr. or Mrs. High School Principal, (Depends if it's before or after the gender change you had) First off, you were way overpaid. Second, you STILL seem to have no idea what sets these kids off. Video Games don't kill people. Bad Parenting spawns some of these children. When mom and dad are too busy at the bar to take care and raise their kids, there are problems. Don't blame this on music and video games, this wasn't Columbine. Let me guess, I bet you go to church every Sunday and your kids are just perfect little angels. (Assuming you're married, if not, I for some reason see you like the principal of Billy Madison's school) It's sad that after retiring as an education person you still have no idea about anything like this. I guess it's a good thing you're not in the school system anymore.

Janet, it is way too simplistic to blame video games or music. There is so much about modern life that is utterly at odds with the way human beings evolved. In primitive societies, infants are held constantly and nursed on demand, the family stays together, and the whole community looks out for each other. The young are given important tasks as soon as they old enough, which surely breeds self-esteem, responsibility, and a sense of community. Today's kids were raised in impersonal daycare centers with frequent turnover, brought up in broken homes, and shoved into a vapid kiddie and adolescent "culture" in lieu of being taken seriously. There is so little sense of community in most places that parents are afraid to let kids play outside unsupervised. Of course they play video games--nothing else is left for them to do!

Why not Sigh, the ACLU has made an industry out of doing just what you described:

"Spo de o de" - You can't be serious. Claiming lack of success due to gender/race/sexual preference/etc.. "

The callous and truncated manner in which people tend to communicate via text can lead to misunderstandings, or sometimes too good of an understanding, about what a person feels in any given situation. Such things can spark violent reactions, but are not the cause of the violence. It is just a medium through which people communicate. If anything, it is the adult teacher or parent's inability to get students to focus on anything OTHER than their social pursuits, whatever form they may currently take, that causes so many of the emotional and outburst issues we see today.

Texting and computers actually allow this generation the ability to communicate more often with more people than your generation ever had the chance to do. There are obvious complications with that kind of constant accessibility. But that doesn't make the technology the culprit. Kids his age fought and killed in nearly every war before Vietnam, for 1000's of years, but they didn't have texting.

I agree that the tendency to read anything that isn't a text is disturbing in today's youth, but blaming music, texts, and video games just proves that Janet has joined the retired mentality of glamourizing her youth and blaming the next generations pop culture for the supposed changes in human temperment. As if this kid spending time reading Catcher in the Rye and listening to Lawrence Welk instead of texting his buddies and shooting digital zombies would have made his decisions more rational. We have always had similar problems with individuals snapping in society. Our ability to communicate just makes them more obvious now, because it isn't limited to the local or state newspaper.

Old people always blame the new sections of society that they don't care for or comprehend for the supposed changes in society that they don't like. When Janet was growing up, kids shot squirrels with BB Guns for fun. Now they shoot digital bad guys. They used to pass notes in class, now they text. They used to listen to "outrageous" flapper music insead of good old Mozart, who was considered a radical musician in his day, but probably not by Janet's youth.

People are people and are subject to mental aberrations, abuses, disease, desire, anger, frustration, and a host of other emotional influences that are not easily pinned down. Pointing at ones you don't understand or like and claiming they are the cause based on anecdotal evidence is ignorant. Especially for someone who made education their life.

Schools have no clue what goes on inside those doors. its a joke. take it from a student. thiers always class war fare up and down the hall ways.teachers would rather avoid problems rather then fix problems. the deans and principle are blind of what happens at school.

if your not cool then ur a nobody pretty much. not even teachers talk to you. the hallmonitors to they seem to talk to the cool kids only. the schools are a joke now a days. it makes me laugh.

to many kids are un heard. and its important to be heard. maybe someone should fix this problem. the kids that bully are always the rich mommy and daddy kids. the half-ass parent that had @!$%# over like its nothing. those kids were never taught values. some ruin others lifes. ive seen it

i got a news flash for j coop an Joe B-427793 your both wrong if the teachers and conciler would have done there jobs an notice the signs this wouldnt have happened o and j coop lets go over what your generation did the playing baseball and the sand lot only basketball o and let me point morons kids still do these things today they still play sports but your generation what did they do in turns of violent acts 1:assassinated JFK president of the united states 2. assasssinated MLK greatest black man ever 3. 1966 university of texas tower sniper Rampage Was Deadliest Campus Shooting Until Virginia Tech you people act like this all video games and music and like its just started in recent years please explaine to me what cause these people to do this was it basketball that caused it back in your get reall @!$%#s its just metaly @!$%#ed up people that got picked on and finally said enough with this @!$%# get real

also i would like to point we ARE ANIMALS WITH ANIMAL THOUGHTS and how can any kid be normal any more we they have no rollmodels or any thing to look forward to and every day of our lifes we see corpution lies cheating and violence mabe we should blame politions teacher princalpals parents and the news for being morons that do nothing all day beside be blinded and setting bad examples for our kids this really pisses me of how dumb people are so quick to place blame on an easy target for them not doing there jobs

Its not the video games and the music...

I guess I must be yet another oddball because though I wasn't into drugs in high school for the most part, I certainly listened to a lot of things like Marylin Manson and played a good deal of violent video games. But here I am in college working towards getting a degree, never having committed any violent crimes.

But to be real, I see most of these people that try to blame school violence on video games and music as just trying to find a scape goat. I say hold parents and teachers responsible. Seems like these days too many just don't think its their job to care any more.

Oh and another thing, there's another group of people that don't play violent video games, refuse to drink or do drugs, and for sure don't listen to any kind of hard music: Radical Muslims. Funny thing is they actually do kill people, quite often. So how does your theory fit in there?

I agree and disagree.

I agree there is way too much communication being done online but I wouldn't be so quick to say that because of that it hinders everyone's ability to handle their emotions. How many adults are diagnosed with depression each year? How many adults are resorting to pills to "handle" their emotions? This is a common problem that has been going on a lot longer than just texting and video games. There are reasons why teens like this (referring to article) are taking it to this extreme and harming themselves and you can't make a blanket statement that it's texting and video games. The problem is parents aren't talking enough with their children and watching how their behavior is changing before it's too late.

I've grown up with the internet, explicit music, outlandish tv and video games in my teen years. I've actually been diagnosed with severe clinical depression and anxiety disorder at 10-- my problems started in elementary school when I was still playing sports, before cell phones were mainstream, before people owned personal computers. Whodathunk my communication problems and the way I have difficulty handling my emotions have nothing to do with technology but my biology! I was one of "those" teens as well and had my parents not known the signs for depression or analyzing my behavior then I wouldn't be here today. Some of my classmates parents weren't as lucky and they lost their children from it.

Too bad you weren't able to open your mind up and explore the real reasons on how to fix this. Eliminating tv's, cell phone's, and video game's aren't going to help a suicidal teen . Only intervention will.

**And had I gone to your "meeting" I would have laughed in your face. The time I did try comitting suicide I didn't have access to a computer, tv, cell phone, or video games. I was so deep into my depression that I didn't care what was going on or having contact with anyone. What's the point of a cell phone when you have no friends anyway? In fact, it was even right after I had a meeting with my therapist. So you see, it's really not so black and white and our situations are very unique to us. I'm very glad you're retired with your "old" view on things.

It’s not about the music or the technology. It’s about the lack of parents and people of influence in one’s life stepping up to the plate to DO AND SAY what is right.

By most of Janet's (and those in agreement) theories about young adults or people of any age for that matter being ruined by video games and in her opinion what is bad music... I would say I see many flaws in this argument.

The biggest flaw in the argument is that she and those in agreement tried to label anything at all as being the cause of any societal problems or outbursts from the younger generations or even older ones that act out. I see this as a prime flaw in societal / psychological argument. I as many others above can claim to have grown up with extensive if not overdoes levels of TV, video, games, texting, phones, and other computer related activities. Yet here we sit as prominent members of society working in some of the largest corporations in the world, in Universities, high schools, community centers, and have many other positive life style attributes. None of which would be considered a result by Janet and those in agreement of immense exposure to electronic stimulation as I would call it.

What is the real problem? The community and collection of people in one’s life that have influence. Blaming bad parenting or technology is no different than blaming the smell on the dog when it wasn’t. When young adults like in this instance act out with guns in class or other such events in society, it’s about them lacking influence and stimulation that is positive for their growth as a person, emotionally, and psychologically. A LACK of something causes instances like this… not lifeless technology or so called bad parenting. There are too many stories of people coming out of horrible childhoods that are prominent positive members of their respective community. Maybe their parents were bad… but aunts uncles, soccer coaches, and part time after school job managers all can play a large part as well. Those people can easily make up for a lack of parenting, replace the parenting, or even hinder good parenting.

The society and community around each person IS the cause of and solution to all situations like this or otherwise. Blaming it on a piece of plastic and silicone that uses electricity, or blaming it on some aural artwork that is different than what one likes to listen to is wasted effort and even hinders the efforts to remedy societal problems by distracting from the real task at hand.

Janet and anyone who agrees with her: None of those things caused this. stuff like this has always happened and the frequency has increased a little ahead of the population because some of the stressors that cause this kind of activity are only seen in high populations. Children and adults alike have done things like this even before any of the stuff you've blamed was invented. The only thing technology and computers even have to do with it is now when it happens the whole world knows. As widespread as cellphones, pop/rock/rap music, computers, and video games are if they were to blame you'd see things like this at least ten times everyday as nearly every teen in america has all of these things or access to the ones they don't own themselves. Technology isn't whats wrong with the world, people and modern society are, Technology just lets you watch the chaos unfold.

Just remember - nothing fails like prayer! And to the real Packer fan, yes, actually there IS proof prayer does absolutely nothing.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16569567

Patients who were "prayed for" were actually slightly worse off. Look at it this way: Whenever I really want something to happen, I always go cut a cabbage in half and throw each piece over my shoulders. About 1 out of 1000 times, it works! So obviously cabbage cutting has some sort of mystical power. I have been worshiping cabbages because of this for 40 years. Am I nuts?

It is possible.

For example; Eric and Dylan felt like outcasts, felt persecuted and bullied by many of their classmates, especially the jocks (something I can relate to). The only thing that didn't make any sense with their assault on Columbine High was that they wounded or killed a lot of their peers who had nothing to do with the bullying/persecution, which is the most tragic part of the whole thing. A good teacher, and many good kids died that day. It really shouldn't have happened at all.

I can only hope that the jocks that bullied Eric and Dylan feel an insurmountable guilt for their own actions, i.e., deeply regret their own malice towards those two, for the rest of their lives.

What Eric and Dylan committed to was truly evil, but so was the jocks' bullying. There really needs to be a zero tolerance policy concerning bullying at all public schools.

no see the bullys get praised and the smart nerdy wierd kids get @!$%# on

my personal feeling is if your a dick and a cocky moron picking on people you deserve to be shot @!$%# one less moron in this world teenager or not

bullies don't feel guilt no matter how extreme their actions or the consequence. They are a form of sociopath, caring only for themslves and those that benifit them. Once your no longer a benefit your tossed aside. They often get corporate careers and use the same tactics to climb that ladder. Hence the corporate takeover of america and the subjugation of all it's citizens but those at the top of corporate hierarchies. Hence most people are living below the poverty level. Hence minimum wage not being kept with the cost of living so most jobs pay well below the poverty level. Heck I'd almost bet this kid saw things as I do and wanted to do something but once he had himself in the position to be herad he just couldn't take the pressure. I know I used to get frustrated as hell with the world at large and contemplate similar actions when I was about his age. I stil get the frustration but now I contemplate the restructuring of our government, the reeducation to erase faith based false teachings and replace it with scientific truths and logic, and the websites I'm about to build about these two subjects.

Yeah, keep praying to your imaginary "guy in the sky" You can see how that has helped the world so far. Praying is that thing you do that benefits no one, but lets you off the hook for doing nothing.

So what are you going to do, Ed? I suspect "nothing" sums it up pretty well.

But you'll criticize someone else for praying, even though you have no proof it doesn't have an effect. Do you really think we're all just random accidents of chemistry? Maybe we should all pray for you ...

Ed- Believing in God requires faith. Some people have it some don't. There is no hard proof that he is or isn't there so don't act like like its a fact that he isn't. I'm not going to bash on you because you don't believe so don't bash on people who do. And since we are "off the hook" and do nothing, what are you doing to help?

Just normal - change your name please. You guys crack me up ... all of you have wildly different ideas that define your faith. This is the first time I have ever heard that God has wings. Does he have claws too?

Probably meant wings as a metaphor.

Ed, when you can provide scientific proof that the "guy in the sky" does NOT exist, you can scoff and laugh at believers all you want. Until you can prove there is no god, you are no better than the people you laugh at. Lack of evidence is not proof that something does not exist. I won't laugh at anyone else's beliefs, whether I share them or not, because I have no more proof they're wrong than they do that they're right.

Do you really think we're all just random accidents of chemistry?

The original life was and since then it has been a phonomenun called evolution, that most of you irresponsibles that blame an imaginary thing and pretend that things are taken care of by it refuse to learn, just like this irresponsible kid refused to learn to live without harming unsuspecting people,

Maybe we should all pray for you ...

maybe you should, if that boosts your chance of going to your heaven sooner

For lot of people praying gives them strength,hope and it makes them happy.I mentioned it before and I will mention it again.I am sure that many atheists read self-help and self-improvement books while I read the bible. Many talk to a psychiatrist to deal with their problems while I talk to God.Difference is I don't spend 200$ on a session.

flbikerchick seems to be living in a proof-less world. But then, I have no proof, scientific or spiritual, that he/she/it is living at all

... read self-help and self-improvement books while I read the bible. Many talk to a psychiatrist to deal with their problems while I talk to God.Difference is I don't spend 200$ on a session.

Question is, why do such people find such an irresistible urge to advertise for their personal sterss-relief techniques? I don't see anyone advertising for their psychiatrist or promoting self-help books in such news-comments area.

It was said that he would be prayed for. That wasn't an advertising attempt.

tes, it was merely a comparison.I am not trying to advertise my personal stress relief techniques.You are blowing it out of proportion.

It was said that he would be prayed for

It was reacted to that what you do for your sterss relief is not a relevant comment for the news here. These praying people keep commenting on every news possible about what they pray for, like one solution of their personal belief fits all problems while it is just a waste of space

Comparison that is, again related to the irrelevant comment. And comparison, as it suits, is one of the most used marketing tactics.

Blowing what out of proportion; the original totally irrelevant comment (#6) of what that commenter does for himself or that he/she is really reminding his/her god of the necessity to 'save' the gunman here. As useless and unproductive as the comment is, it has become one of the typical god-promoting and self-satisfying comment on almost all news on the web

tes, comment #6 might not be relevant to the story, I will give you that. As a matter of fact we could generalize lot of the posts here as irrelevant to this story (including mine and yours). Any way you look at it he or she did not write anything hateful or sarcastic nor did he or she try to push her religious beliefs on us.I don't think he or she deserves all the animosity.

Future,

This is the first time I have ever heard that God has wings. Does he have claws too?

God has whatever He wants. That's why He is God.

what god you mean the god that let 4 kids get shot get real gods a cruch for morons to use when something goes wrong check it out as parents we are god to our chidren stop preaching about the god that never does anything for use and start teaching your kids wrong from right like dont bully kids and dont shoot up the nigs that picked on you plus dont high school do anything to stop idiots from picking on kids

Markaroo,

I think Tes's animosity is really directed towards the God that he/she claims not to believe in.

You know, I was raised as an atheist but it really cracks me up when atheists get so belligerant over a simple post. Methinks they have serious unresolved childhood issues. People are going to pray, and they are going to say things like "I'm praying for you" -- it doesn't mean a thing from an atheist's POV, so get over it, already! Tes, you might as well get hopping mad everytime someone says "bless you" when you sneeze or "Goodbye" which is short for "God be with you." Religion is a part of some people's reality. It means a great deal to them, and it is just plain rude to complain about it unless maybe someone is being a pest IRL by trying to convert you every day at the office. A post is something you can scroll right past. Why must EVERY seed be hijacked by these stupid, boring arguments about the existence of God? Tearitanyday is right: faith is something you either have or you don't. It is doesn't pertain to you, let it be and move on.

Instead of praying, actually do something to help.

"Instead of praying, actually do something to help."

Like...posting a sarcastic slap at religion? Sure that helps just as much as praying!

he dead. it said hes dead in the first paragraph.

Uh, hey Brilliance says right in the title he died! READ not scan, be suprised how much you learn.

anonymous & po'd - Do you realize these stories are updated? When I first read the story several hours ago, it said the boy had life threatening injuries.

that's no excuse, Wheezy, Shawn is still probably stupid and so are you !!!

OomYaaqub
i think its funny you say let it be or move on but wars are fought over relgion people are murder every day for what they belive why cause of there twisted thought of what god want how about we say @!$%# and your relgion heres the proof that your god cant exist cause there is proof sory to tell you relgion is the problem so no i wont move how about you stop letting people die because of your reldion and god

Jesus is coming soon. Will you be ready?

Wikileak,

Wars are fought over religion, not God. There is a huge difference. Religion is man based. Therein lies the problem. Where there is man, there is greed.

Yes, the article did say....you just didn't read the whole thing. But I'm not going to tell you....go back and read it yourself.

Job Seeker....The gunman is not dead, however, he has "life threatening injuries."

Geese Donkey Hodey...Would it kill you to have a little generosity and courtesy?

Aggie-345886

It's OK. I have created many enemies over the last couple of years as I am a frequent visitor on Newsvine. They will take every opportunity to get back at me, but I am used to it :)

Geese Aggie.....I have bags of generosity and courtesy, I am just not going to pander to someone who can't be bothered to read the article, but still feels the need to comment on it. And Job Seeker....I don't know you from Adam and you are certainly not my "enemy"....you might want to get over yourself...you're not that famous.

donkeyhodey

If I am not your enemy, do you treat everyone with such bad manners just because they overlooked a sentence in the middle of an article? I know your kind, tough guy on the computer, gives the finger to strangers in the safety of your car while speeding off. Yeah, you're a real tough guy.

Some threads are better than the articles they evolve under. I'm sure what donkeyhodey meant was that he too thinks society should read more.

They update the articles, but don't resent the comments. Some of these people here must be new to technology.

what I want to know is did he drive to school or take his lunch ??

donkey hodey...If you're not going to "pander" to anyone, then why bother to answer at all...and twice no less.

And just who is going to verify that ALL of the guns ever produced are accounted for? Our wonderful government? Yeah, I'm real confident about that!

It said in the article that the parents were involved with their family. Sometimes this just happens.

tearitanyday - And that is what is so terrifying to us as parents. We all want to be able to say, 'That would never happen with our child, since we do/don't do XYZ.'

We need to stop assuming that it's the parents fault every time a child does something bad. Sometimes parents can do a great job and bad things happen anyway due to some combination of genetics and the environment OUTSIDE the home.

You know who never played video games, texted on a phone or blogged on a computer?

Hitler.

MGinRochester - First off, your genetics come from, wait for it, your parents. If you are a child and you have a mental issue that is going to cause you to harm people there are proven signs shown while growing up. Serial killers typically start with killing animals, whether it be the neighbors dog or a rabbit. The FBI does these physiological profiles so these tendencies can be easily spotted. Something a child's parents should notice.

Second, when I lived with my parents I had rules to follow. Even when I was 21 years old and home from college during Thanksgiving I had a parental imposed curfew of 2AM. I'm not saying that's the right way to do it, I didn't agree with it because when I returned to college I stayed out as late as I wanted but my Dad was always nervous about me being out late because he was a Chicago Cop for 32 years and witnessed some disgusting things. But when I was under their roof whether I was 16, 18, or 21 I had to obey their rules. So if I was OUTSIDE the home I still had to obey their rules and those rules were, when I went out I had to tell them where, with who, how long I'll be there and if I go some where else to let them know. (These became much more relaxed when I acquired a cell phone, thank God)

Don't tell me we can't assume it's the parents fault. Children and most teenagers do not know what is best for them. Most importantly they crave rules and boundaries. I rebelled against my parents rules like all other children do. I did it twice. The first was 15, I was sneaking out. Dad came down hard on me then. At that age I hadn't earned the right to reason with his rules. I did it again when I was 21. But this time after three years of college, good grades, working part time, and no phone calls from the cops he relaxed his rules because I had the ability of reason, I matured.

If I learn anything from my parents it's you have to stay on top of your kids and what they do until they can prove they don't need you anymore. I was never smothered, I was allowed to live my life but I was reminded of what the rules are and that I have to obey them. Constantly involved, constantly watching. That's being a parent and so if there is a teenager commits a horrible crime, although the penalty will end with the criminal there is no reason the parent should be excused.

Irish...One can't paint people with such a broad brush, or is narrow more fitting? Whichever... What about parents who's child is schitzophenic (sp?), and the parents are not. What about one with OCD? Anorexia, Bulimia? And any number of conditions, that neither parent suffered or suffers from. We all have our own individual psyche and DNA. Genetics alone doesn't account for every individual's total individuality. I do agree that parents have to stay aware of what their children, especially teens, are into, who their friends are, where they "go" on the internet, but too much being "on top" of your kids, and you will mostly succeed in forcing them to be very guarded....against YOU. Love them, respect them, discipline them, support them in what they do, talk to them, listen to them, guide them, give them boundaries. Some parents do nothing right, and their kids turn out great, others do all the right things, and they do not. This seems to be the case with this boy in Wisconsin.

YES YES YES!!! Regardless of his possible homosexuality, defeatist music, anger, video games, etc., he made the decision to bring a gun to school and hold those kids hostage. It seems like we (i.e. the media, society, parents) have a tendency to blame everbody except the person who made the "wrong" decision. I get so frustrated with these kinds of situations, because they don't have to happen. People make choices. Period. They may be bad choices, in which case they should suffer due consequences, but I find consequences are necessary for people to learn from their mistakes.

The more sympathetic that we as a society become toward people who harm themselves, the more it seems to happen. Suicide is everywhere these days

That is NOT true. I speak as a survivor of suicide. When I was a teen my brother commited suicide. The common reaction/advice in those days was shame and do not tell anyone how he really died. Basically lie. I have also had two friends commit suicide. Both families have faced the same shame issues...lie. One person still does not tell anyone. The other I don't know, I didn't find out about it for a year or so, and when I did it was from a distant aquaintance- so that leads me to believe it was because people weren't informed, again shame. It was typically handled as so-n-so died at home or where ever, nothing else ever said, the family is silent.

Suicide and violent acts have always happened, just like mental illness has always been around. People have always victimized women and children etc. The difference today is that we have people that are less shame based, they talk, we have instant news, media that tells us everything, often too much. We didn't have these high profile hostage/suicide situtions and that is a media issue, people looking for fame, looking to be noticed in some sick way. It is quite sad and tragic statement about about society.

I agree. I think suicide is very selfish. You are hurting a lot of people and even changing lives when you make that decision. I don't care how bad your feelings are hurt, it's never THAT bad. Just think of all the pain you are causing when you leave people behind. Think of how much worse life is in other countries for billions of people. If people would take these things into consideration, they wouldn't make these stupid mistakes, but in the end, they are just being selfish.

Sure suicide is selfish but usually when people are in that mode they aren't thinking straight. They aren't thinking down the road at the path of distruction they will leave. Even if they know they will hurt some people and feel that is justified they have no clue how far reaching that distruction will actually be. They also don't typically realize that tomorrow or next week or next year they won't feel so hurt, angry or whatever emotion is driving them to such extremes. They are looking for a solution and see no other options.

If a lot of people did a lot of things....yep things would be different.

I don't care how bad your feelings are hurt, it's never THAT bad.

Actually sometimes it's worse. A lot of judgmental people on here, with no idea what was going on in this kids heart or mind. Compassion is NOT the problem in situations like these, and it doesn't happen anymore often now than it did in the past, as Kim said we're just much more aware of it when it does. Look at all the priests who did what they did 20, 30, 40 years ago, but people are convinced we're worse off now than then. No, people just used to shut their eyes and mouths.

I'm only glad that he didn't try to take other people with him, seems more like he was making a statement, wanted someone to pay attention, etc.

Dear Marklar, the least problem of our society is sympathy towards victims in general, and those who commit suicide in particular. The biggest problem of our society is violence and aggression at all levels (family, school, work-place, country & international relations). If we ever create a world based on love and cooperation instead of greed and competition, we'll see fewer (if any) people committing suicide

Marklar, you will take a lot of flak about your post but as someone who has suffered from lifelong, recurrent depression that is obviously genetic, I totally agree with you. There have been several suicides in my family. I believe there would have been fewer if these people had considered it morally wrong and given a thought to the people left behind. I know this moral belief--and it IS a moral belief--has kept ME alive, no matter how bad I'm personally feeling. This is one of the ways religious faith, even one acquired as an adult, can save your life and sanity. It gives one a sense of perspective, something sorely lacking in our society. I am not saying it is the ONLY way, of course. But you would expect suicide rates to go up (and they HAVE gone up in recent years) when people lose their faith. If my life is just my own, I am free to dispose of it as I see fit. If my life is a gift from God, I might have a slightly different attitude.

That is NOT true. I speak as a survivor of suicide. When I was a teen my brother commited suicide.

Unless YOU ever seriously felt like committing suicide but refrained from doing so, or unless you actually made an attempt, YOU are not a survivor of suicide. You are the sister of someone who succumbed to suicide. The issue is not "what will make the family feel better afterwards" but "what is likely to prevent suicide attempts in the first place." While talking it about it afterwards makes the people left behind heal faster, that isn't the issue here. We're only talking about the potentially suicidal person. And yes, making it more "socially acceptable" can indeed lead to an increase in actual attempts. I'm a genuine suicide survivor and I'm absolutely convinced of that.

I believe there would have been fewer if these people had considered it morally wrong and given a thought to the people left behind.

This is one of the ways religious faith, even one acquired as an adult, can save your life and sanity.

While I don't disagree that religion might play a part in some people's decision not to follow through with a suicide, I do disagree that it is a requirement. Thinking about the lives of those you are leaving behind is just plain common sense rationale. There was a dark period in my life (as an atheist) where nothing was going my way in the areas of unemployment, relationships, interpersonal conflict, finance and forclosure. The thought of parking the car in the garage, closing the door and letting the engine run out of gas went through my head on a daily basis. I refused to entertain this option because I know that it would crush those who loved and relied on me. No child, parent, relative, friend, etc. would want to have to deal with the loss of a loved one due to suicide, so really the will to live is a simple extension of the golden rule. The lack of religion does not make you more prone to following through with suicide. If you ride it out and work hard, things can turn around. I persevered (as an atheist) and I am beyond all those problems now - except for crappy credit - that will haunt you forever.

Very well said, FH.

Additionally, having worked many suicide investigations in nearly twenty years, my experience is that final expressions often reflect the commonality of personal situational despair even from the faithful.

Indications are that this young man was a Lutheran and a Boy Scout with a supportive family, yet he took his own life.

My view is that an appreciation of the wonder of the real universe in plain view and an culpable acceptance of the joys, despairs, successes, failures and ambiguities is far more sane, brilliant and hopeful than the religious claims and lore of assorted regions...that seem so limited by proportion in comparison.

How would you want God to help?

God was right where He always is. Watching His creation carry out their wicked schemes to their own delight and His dismay. That's the price of freedom of choice, sad to say.

God isn't much help to those who don't believe in him, or don't put themselves in touch with him. How could he be? Who wants to live in a world in which, every time someone feels like doing something wrong, God steps in and stops them?

ur funny rock. im 16 and no that u must have some education before u speak and some reason behind it.its not music ,televison, video games, those are called scape goats. the part i find most funny is you said wheres god when this boy needed him?

i think its more how ur raised. and ur moral values that seperate right from wrong. i noticed the bullies are the rich kids. with perfect mommy and daddys.the kids that get stuff handed to them. not televison were not three anymore. TEACH UR KIDS . NOT HIDE UR KIDS .

Cry for help?? I don't think so.

Talking to a parent or teacher or pastor saying, "Hey, I've got this problem" is a cry for help.

But the moment you pick up a bullet launcher and try to take your frustrations out on ME or my family (or a captive audience in a school room) it's become something altogether different - and you definitely do have a real problem on your hands. Because at that point, it's no longer a cry for help, but a declaration of war on civilized people. Unacceptable. It is thinking like this which is tearing down our society, step by step, "justifiable victim" by "justifiable victim".

(I know this makes me the "hard-hearted evil person", but I have NEVER liked bullies of any sort, and no one has ever been able to just justify this kind of behavior to me.)

Since he took his fellow students hostage, not his parents, isn't it far more likely he was being tormented at SCHOOL?

Maybe some of these students were bullies to others and I hope if they were this does stick in there minds at how ignorant and stupid it is to bully anyone because of color, clothing or the way someone looks. Maybe it will help them to change there behavior before one day someone attacks them.

Actually, the actions (or what you see as inactions) of these officers are probably why there is one dead child instead of a room full. You obviously have never been in a hostage situation. Rushing to the rescue immediately is not always the best answer.

Sally-Snoopy's Sister:

You seem to know NOTHING about hostage situations! You don't know ALL the facts about this particular incident! Before condeming the police you should, at least, do some reading research based on facts about hostage situations; then post another entry to apologize for your ignorant post about the police mishandling this particular hostage situation. Your last post is just plain WRONG!

I think the police did exactly what they were supposed to do. They tried to speak with the kid but he would not. If you read the article you would have seen that they just went through training for this exact scenario and they followed their training and it was a success because no hostages were harmed.

15.2 - No one needs to die in a situation like this - there are better ways of resolving it quickly. But you have to be willing to listen and not think that you know everything - with a badge.

15.3 - I've been in a hostage situation. And I'm right. If you have not - shut up. You know nothing of it. (All caps is shouting - a COH violation)

15.4 - They did not.

What I said is true.

If you can't accept the truth - do not read it. Just because you claim I am wrong does - who are you? What do you know.

Show me your credentials and I'll show you mine.

Your attitudes are misguided and why unnecessary deaths occur by police in these matters - an RN should understand that better than anyone - I worked in an Emergency room, too.

You all know I'm right.

No one should have died - not necessary.

Sally:

"15.4 - They did not."

They did not what????

They did not do what they were supposed to do? You know like try to talk him down and negotiate?

"The gunman refused to communicate with officials during the standoff"

They did not attend training courses?

"Marinette Schools Superintendent Tim Baneck noted the community went through an emergency response training exercise last year.

"So the local law enforcement officials as well as the educators were all involved in a mock shooter situation, so it is actually very fresh in our minds in terms of the training we just went through," he said."

They did not enter the room because if they entered with force they could have caused him to open fire on the hostages. They likely did not have a good line of sight to disable and disarm the Hostage taker, they tried to contact by phone (a standard procedure), They entered with force when they heard shots, until they heard those shots they would have been further risking the lives of others by entering with force causing devastating consequences.

And I am sorry that you were in a hostage situation, that is unfortunate, however that does not make you and expert on the proper procedures to follow in a hostage situation, you were the hostage not the police. That is a job for law enforcement and unless you are law enforcement than you wouldn't necessarily be privy to all of those exact details and procedures used and followed.

OK, RN thank God you're retired because you can't read, nobody died.

Children should respect their parents, not fear them.

In the 1950's we didn't have school shootings because dads were allowed to wear out there children ass with a belt or paddle.

There's a big difference between disciplining a child through spanking and beating the crap out of him. If you can't tell the difference, I hope you don't/didn't have children.

Jason

I agree with the second part of your comment about bullying...although never a victim of bullying, I was a victim of child abuse and disagree with your statement regarding it. I do think that children can and do listen without inflicting physical pain on them. I do admit that there are instances when a child should receive a physical punishment, however never with an object other that an open hand and minimal. I suffered through beatings by the hands of mother and father and I can tell you even without broken bones and cut skin, bruises and welts come from belts and paddles and a nightly beating is no way to manage your childs behavior.

My kids are not saints, but I do not hit them and they are pretty well behaved, they have their moments as even a child who is beat will have, but over all i cant complain. Violent acts as punishment teach kids that violence is ok, as long as you are bigger and stronger...hence bullies...explaining to a child what they did wrong and explaing those concequences to them (cause and effect) they will better understand how life works. They will be better adults for it and I guarantee will be in less trouble as teens and young adults as those that you beat with a belt every night...you might knock the sense out of them.

Everything wasn't all rosy and wonderful in the 50's. Just one little google search turned up this article written about violence in schools from the 40's and 50's: http://studentactivism.net/2009/04/14/concealed-carry-laws-and-school-safety-evidence-from-the-1940s-and-1950s/

There's a big difference between disciplining a child through spanking and beating the crap out of him.

You should have read his entire post - because he did address that very issue.

Perhaps you should have...beating a child with a belt or a paddle is abuse not discipline...giving a spanking (1 or 2 spanks) with an open hand is more like discipline...whooping a child with a belt or paddle (as he stated) is abuse, again not discipline. Just because bones arent broken and actual breaks in the skin (cuts) arent made doesnt mean that it was not abuse. Bruises and welts can be very severe without braking th skin or a bone...I hope you dont have kids, because it seems that you might agree with this method of so called discipline

because it seems that you might agree with this method of so called discipline

Not quite,,, but I do agree with this method of punishment.

Discipline is system of rules governing conduct or activity. No one is advocating the sort of 'abuse' which seems to pre-occupy you. It is punishment, or consequences for certain behaviors (on a responsible level) which molds and guides disciplines.

But either way, the current state of our society in general clearly shows your view to be entirely correct:

Just a slap or two with an open palm has allowed us to morph into the thriving, socially intelligent, conscious civilization we are today. I couldn't be more proud!

Flymaster: Leave it to a "christian" to see one negative comment from someone and automatically that person has "nothing but hatred" in their heart. How do you know that? You don't know Ed at all. Just because he believes that it is nonsense to pray about something but not to actually do anything about it? Why would you be so selfish as to comment on someone's elses disbelief in something that you, also, cannot prove or disprove? Hmm? Before you judge anyone, don't forget this quote from your own magic book:

"And why behold you the mote that is in your brother's eye, but consider not the beam that is in your own eye?" Matthew 7:1-5

OH, thats right. You bible thumpers just cherry pick from the bible that which suits your own purposes. I forgot.

Flymaster I don't think it is very Godly to call people idiots. I'm not perfect but its kind of hypocritical to talk about your belief in God in such an angry post. I do agree with the point of your post though.

Actually, I see nothing in Flymaster's comment where he claims to be a Christian or godly, for that matter. It appears that he was simply commenting on Ed's bashing of those with different beliefs.

Let people believe in something that brings them happeness and peace of mind.

Sounds like an appeal for tolerance (in the true sense of the word). Funny, how everyone has tolerance for everything except Christianity. Why are people not degrading Muslims for their belief in an imaginary god called "Allah"?

The gun manufactures want America to think if everyone had a gun everyone would be safer. This is nothing but big business politics. It is just a way to sell more guns. If the kid didn't have the ability to get two guns he wouldn't had a chance to hold someone hostage. The kid also wouldn't have been able to severely injure himself. Guns are made for killing!!!! I'm exmilitary and a marksman trained in many weapons.

I'm exmilitary and a marksman trained in many weapons.

So?

If the kid didn't have the ability to get two guns he wouldn't had a chance to hold someone hostage.

And how do you propose realistically to stop kids, or anyone for that matter, from getting guns if they absolutely want to get a hold of one?

Check your facts! The states with the toughest laws are actually Masachusetts, California, New Jersey and New York. In fact, in Winsconsin you don't need a permit to purchase or carry a handgun and you don't have to register the weapon. Compare gun laws here and you'll see that Winsconsin is quite lax when it comes to owning/carrying guns: http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/a/gunlaws_wi.htm

Christian Republican

When it comes to carrying without a permit, you are mistaking Wisconsin for Alaska and Vermont. How tough are the handgun laws in Wisconsin and Illinois? They are the only two states which do not allow concealed carry by private citizens under any circumstances. States like CA, MA and others allow concealed carry under special circumstances if your job justifies it. 41 states already have concealed carry laws allowing any citizen with no criminal record or mental issues to obtain a permit. Those are the facts. Check them out.

JobSeeker

You must remember that people like Christian Republican have no interest in the facts beyond the ones that they manufacture to support their own views.

jonobo,

Did you simply assume because their screen name had Christian and Republican in it that they "manufactured" facts to fit their viewpoint? Did you ever consider that they simply made a mistake, or perhaps relayed erroneous information that they had heard elsewhere? I'm sure you have never done that, have you?

Y'know, Retired RN, I'm with you. So many kids are not taught that they are not entitled to everything. Kids need to know that not everything is going to go their way, that life is full of knocks - along with the good stuff.

Too many parents (AND IT IS THE PARENTS' NOT THE SCHOOLS' DUTY TO MORALLY EDUCATE THEIR CHILDREN) do not teach their kids to deal with life's disappointments, and to accept responsibility for their mistakes and to just deal with it when things go wrong.

Now I don't know a thing about this boy, maybe he has some sort of mental illness, but whatever the reason or problem the fact is that he didn't have the morality to know that it is wrong to hurt or threaten to hurt others, no matter how bad things get for you.

Retired RN-439841

I tend to agree with you on two counts. On the importance of education they stress in China, I spent some time there. The kids who failed a test get called up in front of the class. Each kid held his or her hand out, palm up, and takes a lick from the teacher with a 12-inch ruler. May sound severe, but it brought out the best in all the kids. Here in the states, the teachers used to be allowed to take a paddle to the rear end of a trouble maker or a bully. And when a bully got out of hand, and the teacher wasn't around, we settled it privately with a bloody lip. It was not the end of the world, and the bullies are kept under control.

I find your theory about as interesting as Janet's. I'm pretty sure research into the subject has pinpointed the primary cause of bullying behavior as children having been bullied before themselves - either in the home by their parents or at school by other students. Strangely enough, sibling "bullying" doesn't play much of a roll.

Well, you keep on developing that theory!

Wow those researchers are so darn smart... They have pinpointed all the problems and causes. Let me know when they figure out these questions.

We have always had guns, bully's and lazy parents. Why suddenly are the bullied kids picking up guns and using them on themselves and taking them to school and using them.

Why would a child be afraid to stand up for themselves and punch a bully in the nose but they are not afraid to hang themselves. shoot themselves and take their own life...

What do the "experts" have to say about that? It has nothing to do with bully's. It has to do with little narccisists from the I'm so special generation finding out they're not special at all.

Stupid people believe anything and lazy people support any theory that supports their laziness...

If you read the headline of the article, it states the gunman died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

Retired RN, Well spoken. I have a son who is a Freshman. After his first couple of days of school I asked how everything was going. After sharing some back and forth conversation for a few days he let on that there was one kid (The over-sized jock with the under developed brain and all the insecurities that accompany bullies type) who liked to call him and other kids names such as Butt-Pirate. My son is very gregarious and with out a malice bone in his body, but he is not a wimp. I gave him free rein to handle the situation with in reason. I had coached this kid when he was 9 or 10 on a team with other boys in the neighborhood. He was a ill mannered petulant little brat whose parents put in the same amount of effort as any reptile might.

I then went down to the principal and informed him that he needed to have a come to Jesus meeting with the goon and his parents to make them aware that his bullying behavior was over with. I told him my next step if needed was to meet with his parents (DAD) directly and that no one would like that outcome! I had no compulsion about spending a night or two in the county jail to remedy the situation. Problem solved, and my son stood his ground in the days before it was resolved. No person be it a child or an adult should have to endure 1 minute of intimidation or bullying!

If what RPF said about his kids is true, it sounds as if he did a pretty good job in raising them.

Hey Rob...SQUIRRELLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!

He is a Packer fan..enough said!

Absolutely and as soon as these lazy wannabe parents stop focusing on making their kid their best friend and get back to making the hard decisions that real parents have to make this crap will go away. It is a terribly disappointing day to these kids when they find out they're not special. aftyer being told their whole lives they are... I'm so special, I'm so special look at me, look at me like the cute little song say's that we have our preschoolers singing...

Everyone is special. To their Mommy, Daddy and Grammy.... The rest of the world doesn't care, never did and never will and they shouldn't have to...

Then one day they wake up and find out they have been lied to their whole lives and it's depressing day to find out they're not special and they will be judged by what they do not who they are....

Enter = Anger, depression and now to find someone to blame.....

I am so glad you are retired Janet.... Computers and cell phones are the cause of all this??? You've got to be kidding..... If you're preaching this pantload to parents then you should be laughed off the satge.... You're and educated idiot.... Please stay retired and stay home...

You are an absolute tool.

How can a strong sense of family possibly lead to a kid bringing a gun to school? If anything, I would say it's the strongest remedy against it, and I would go as far as to say it's the exact opposite, too little family interaction, that would help promote such actions in a youth.

A child may be teased and abused at school, but get along just fine knowing he or she's always safe at home, and another to find no comfort because your father is a stern, religious nut ball, and your mom nothing more than a glorified housekeeper. Both of my parents were loving, and the kind of people you weren't embarrassed to bring a girl home to because of their humor, and here I am now with a four-year business degree under my belt and living what I like to think is a successful life; not once have I lashed out because of my upbringings.

Gee, I really wish that I didn't agree with both of you (George and Steve), but I think you nailed it. A couple years ago they did a cross-cultural survey. American students were near the bottom on almost every measure and subject, BUT, they rated #1 in "self-image". They didn't know anything substantive, but they felt like they knew it all.

Yup, that's what we teach, "self-image". My grandson couldn't tell you who we fought in WWII and couldn't put the answer into a coherent sentence even if he knew it, but, biGod, they taught him to have a good "self-image".

And the truly, horrible, and ironic result is... this. This story, this kind of story.

We think by coddling their fragile, little egos, we will proof them against depression, but we simply set them up for the fall, because, at some point, they face hard reality. Thinking you know how to ride a horse won't keep you from getting bucked off if you actually try to ride one and these kids, instead of getting off the ground and back onto the horse, instead feel betrayed and angry. Mommy's little cowboy got thrown? How can that be? And, too often, that disappointment then expresses itself in rage - rage against themselves (and suicide), rage against the world (and murder).

Children can be trained and taught to perform, to meet and deal with the vicissitudes of life, but it requires that they be loaded with expectations, not told that they exceed all expectations.

Well said.... I could not agree more.

Pretty good, for an oldefart!

Thanks, but George and Steve said it first.

I will say however that maybe the parents did everything they could. It sounds like they were very involved. No matter how good a parent you are, sometimes there is nothing you can do to prevent this. I agree that parents are always too sensitive, but that is nothing new (they have been forever).