Awesome...maybe this will finally be the match that lights the powder keg!

This is another probing maneuver by China. Let's poke (by proxy) the Western powers, to test their commitment to Eastern Asia.

I say, call 'em on it! Escalate, escalate, escalate! A large scale cull of the human race is long overdue.

Good thing I'm not in charge, eh?

Is it me…or is North Korea about to get it. Good thing is no Right wing Politicians will ever want to fight a war there because they don't have any oil!!!

This could get interesting.China might react to this and I imagine they would be in favor of the South. They have already started smack with Japan and they surely would light them up. Japan might be outnumbered but they would never be outgunned!!!

China is looking to build a new aircraft carrier while researching a new missile to sink carriers from long range. Meanwhile, Japan is beefing up their submarine fleet, probably in response to China's aggressiveness. I hate to sound macabre, but I'm actually a little excited, from a historical point-of-view. We may be on the verge of the next major world conflict.

I can't imagine China siding with the South. They didn't in 1950, why would they now? China likes having its psychotic Pit Bull Terrier in the back yard.

I predict that the Korean peninsula will be known has the united korean empire or whatever they choose to call it within the next 2 yrs.. Right now they are testing the waters..

China may come out with a public reprimand but they dont like American forces this close to their borders and want the koreans united under communist rule.

I predict that the Korean peninsula will be known has the united korean empire or whatever they choose to call it within the next 2 yrs.

I agree. For all the big talk about us annihilating North Korea, I don't believe our current crop of politicians have the backbone to commit to the preservation of South Korea as a separate country. Throw in the distance from our shores and the closeness to those of China, and it would be difficult to get the American public to support that either. And if we ended up in a staring contest with China over the whole situation, I don't see them blinking. Ever. China is no pushover, even to the U.S., and they know it.

I don't want to see those things, of course, no need to insult me. I simply believe that wars are a necessary, revitalizing, and inevitable component of human existence.

Another ad hominem attack...ok, I'll bite...as I'm not in the ROK, US military, or DMZ, why am I full of it?

Balloon pretty.

Yes, well as much as some of you appear to want to believe that North Korea backed by China, is going to take over South Korea, I suspect you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. And likely, have never been to South Korea, let alone been anywhere near the DMZ.

If China had wanted it, South Korea would have ceased to exist long ago. As much as they prop up the North Korean gov't, North Korea is also extremely careful not to do anything to anger the powers that be in China, particularly now that China is moving closer and closer to becoming a more westernized world power, with a society that is far more open then it has been since Mao took charge. To believe they would allow North Korea to do more than thump their collective chest, is foolish at best as China knows the US, Japan and other world powers will jump into the fray on South Korea's behalf, or at worst simply shows that as a nation with no mandatory military conscription, we have far too many people who run off at the mouth without ever having to produce any real knowledge to back up their claims. Do some simple research, and see that North Korea does this sort of thing at least once per year (which is part of the reason why the US retains military bases in South Korea), then lays back in wait until the next time China allows them to have a little fun.

China as always, will give North Korea just enough rope then yank them back when it suits them, and it absolutely does suit them to do so as a world at war, in an unproductive world. North Korea is completely dependent on their exceedingly large neighbor to the West, and will only go so far as they are allowed to. No more. No less.

You mean all these years of bending over backwards and allowing the Chinese to acquire, steal, and buy our most sensitive equipment, nuclear weapons designs, missile technology, and on-going intelligence gathering missions within the US, just to ensure that Wall-Mart and Starbucks and the rest of those companies get access to a billion plus customers has't caused the "internal demand for democratic reform" to occur? China is still a communist country? Wow.... China is the next serious threat the United States will have in the coming years.

I thought China was a "friend" of the United States? Right. Guess again.

China will not rebuke North Korea. This is the same China that sided with North Korea after several international groups confirmed that the South Korean naval vessel was sunk by a North Korean submarine. China is the only reason that North Korea still exsist as a country. Noth Korea has limited resources, a devestated farm region, and a group of nut jobs running the entire country. But, the North has a huge Army. It will have offensive nuclear capabilities in the near future. It is dependent on China's good will and will adhere to China at the drop of the hat. Why would China throw North Korea under the bus when it has a huge standing army ready to do whatever Bejing wants as a "proxy force"?

China is building a significant Anti-Ship missile capabilities. It's building and having Russia build a number of new, modern, offensive submarine force. China is up-grading it's amphibious assault tactics. China has said that it will not "engage" the US directly, they will slowly work their abilities of pushing the US out of the role of protector of the South Eastern-Asia-Pacific rim. Why do you think recently the SEC of DEF Gates had to head over to Vietnam, Japan, Thailand, and Tawian? China has now moved from talking tough to actually making demands on those surronding countries. Sooner or later the Chinese will begin to give the impression or offer to provide "security" to the Pacific rim islands to work the US out of that region as a super power. The Chinese continue to build their navy to counter the US Pacific Fleet. The Chinese are building defensive ring to counter the US carrier fleet that would be sent to protect Taiwan during a Chinese invasion (if the US actually adhered to the various defense treaties we have).

Just because you can visit the "great wall of China" doesn't mean that China is "open arms" to the US. We can set up hundreds of WALL MART stores and think by doing so the Chinese will want "democratic reforms" but that isn't going to happen anytime soon and we have been saying that for the last 40 years.

Who do you think conducts the majority of cyber attacks against US firms? China. China is no "friend" to the U.S., we are just a dumping ground for cheap items and cash.

Aurora, if you are under the age of 35, please feel free to enlist in the Army and put your butt on the line. I really wish the U.S. would make military service mandatory so that everyone faces the consequences of war, male and female. Then it wouldn't just be like a video game where someone gets killed, but you just turn off the T.V. and go to bed, no impact on your life!

13 years USN, wasn't able to serve more, would go back in if needed, but way too old now, I'd only get in the way. Why the condescension - I understand, and appreciate the sacrifice that families, my own included, have made for our country.

Time for a beer summit

I can’t imagine China siding with the South either. Lots of posting says let north and south go for it. Not so easy. We have problems in Afghanistan fighting in mountains terrain full of well planed tunnels and caves. North Korea is no difference and winter is coming with temperatures down to 25 below zero. Plus Seoul is only 35 miles from the demilitarize zone well within range of their rockets. Read the book “Fire and Ice” or watch the video by history channel and you will know what I mean. We should not be in any war where we do not have the military to occupy it . Can’t depend on our allies. Don’t forget China supplied over 250,000 Russian armed troops to North Korea in the 50’s and we lost over 34,000 American military lives in three years, who knows what’s there now. Sounds easy to nuke it but what about the radio activity passed on to neighboring countries and collateral damage our winey negative media raves about on an on. With mountainous terrain full of caves and winter approaching it would be a blood bath for both sides.

I hope we have a plan in event of a north, south war, we certainly didn’t in Iraq when it came to occupying. I have a feel for the problems and results of a war. I was in Korea in 1951-52 army infantry, campaigns Iron Triangle, Punch Bowl, Bald Mountain, Heart Break Ridge, and down to 25 below zero in the winter. Got to be a better way. Any ideas ??

The picture provided actually looks like something from "Curse of the Black Pearl". Could it be that N. Korea is coming out of the closet as a 'Pirate' Nation?

For the rest of you who think this is a North Korean provocation, please reread this part again:

The firing came amid South Korean military drills in the area. North Korea's military had sent a message to South Korea's armed forces early Tuesday to demand that the drills stop, but the South continued them, according to an official at South Korea's Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Dont be so quick to defend the north....

During the drills, South Korean marines on the island shot artillery toward southern waters, away from North Korea, the official said. He spoke on condition of anonymity because of military rules.

North Korea later threatened to continue launching "merciless" strikes against South Korea if it violates their disputed sea border by "even 0.001 millimeter."

N Korea is ITCHING to start something with S Korea. Are you trying to say that S Korea military is not allowed practice drills? N Korea doesnt accept the boundaries...

The two Koreas are still technically at war — the Korean War ended only with a truce.

The countries' western maritime boundary has long been a flash point between the two Koreas. The North does not recognize the border that was unilaterally drawn by the United Nations at the close of the 1950-53 Korean War.

It is most definite a China poke the West by Proxy. Hard to believe that of all the Countries on Earth, North Korea was allowed to go Nuclear. The Two Biggest Nut Job Countries in The ENTIRE WORLD (North Korea and Iran) having Nuclear Weapons is the Biggest Example how MUCH OF A WASTE THE UNITED NATIONS is for the American Taxpayer (The US pays a much larger % of the U.N. Budget than any other country). You cannot let the Despots run the Store and expect anything good to come from it.

The problem with military retaliation is that the guilty (the North Korean government in this case) usually go unpunished while the innocent (the North and South Korean soldiers that don't want war and just want to live their lives like anyone else) suffer and die. The soldiers that would be fighting in a NK-SK war are young men, many of whom don't even want to be in the military but that have NO choice in the matter.

As long as we don't send troops this time, another Korean war would probably be the best thing for the United States, barring it doesnt turn Nuclear. China would of course side with thier Puppet State and America with the South again. That would lead to embargos between China and the U.S. The American companys who have factorys over there would be seized by China, The factorys to build the replacement goods would HAVE to be built in thier rightful place, back here.

It seems to me that China is currently right smack in the middle of one of the biggest economic revolutions in the last 1000 years of history. This is undoubtedly due toward the governments trend toward Capitalism and the privatization of much of it's industrial export. The last thing that China would possibly want is any jeopardizing action. Sanctions would be less likely to hurt China at this time, than would the voluntary withdrawl of support that is currently essential to prop it's free market economy. They already have enough issue with being outside the parameter of the Kyoto Accord, in which the US shares a path. In many ways, NK is more like the maggot laying fly in it's stool. In that, it is not the tail wagging the dog. I would surmise that China would happily see the Koreas come to a uniform government under any rule, which would make the fly swatting twice as profitable.

North Korea certainly understands this, even from behind the iron wall. The SHOW is exactly that. A demonstration that NK is still devout in it's pursuit of a unified Korea under a Solitarian Empiracal rulership, possibly even tending toward an Oligarchy of surreptitious puppetry.

Not long ago S Korean political rabble rousers were suggsting the US pack up and leave to attempt to bring forth change in the relationship with NK. Don't be too sure that the US would not honor that request after the fact.

NK would most likeliy overtake the south and systematically exterminate the free thinkers as an intolerable menace to societal peace. NK would do well to grab the asset of doubling it's nation in size, though it's immediate autonomy would be severly hampered. This brings about the last point.

Money talks, BS walks , and the flies will follow till the maggots cant feed.

It's all simple really, follow the money.

I cant believe what I am reading here. You war mongers, who have never even seen a pair of army boots, unless they were from wall mart, and made in China,are rooting for a war? I guess its time to go....

youkilis7276, I am not pineing for war, I want The USA to Get ot of the UN as it is useless anyways and Vastly reduce Trade with China.

I'm not sure what's keeping the North from an invasion - it's not like the UK or Germany would do anything about it.

They could double their territory overnight.

Aurora1 is one of the philosophical school that says once in a while the human race needs a weeding out and a war. More people accept this than will admit. Even though I too, am a Navy veteran, I think this may have had validity in times past but no more. War is now too destructive and terrible to continue as a way to resolve conflicts. More than individual human beings die, the entire planet could see all life extinguished. Now, irrational people, such as the North Koreans and the Iranians may have nuclear weapons and we need to stop.

I really think nothing too major will come of this. This isn't the first time NK has done something like this, nor will it probably be the last. It probably is NK just beating its chest as they like to do to try and get the rest of the world to pay attention to them/get what they want. They want recognition, and pull stupid stunts like this a lot to get it. I'd like to believe that even China is starting to get a little annoyed with their allies shenanigans. Most likely if NK goes to far out of line China will put them in their place, seeing as they are the only reason they still exist as a country and would stand to lose the most if something happened.

While China surely has the means to do so, they most likely would not risk a full conflict with the US and it's allies, nor would it be beneficial for them to do so. We owe them to much money for them to risk not getting it back would not be wise for them. Who knows, I'm probably just talking out of my ass. But at any rate a full large scale conflict is probably and hopefully the least likely thing to emerge from this. If a conflict would emerge it would probably just be between the two Korea's with backing from the US and China without us getting directly involved. We don't want a war with China and vice versa.

"As long as we don't send troops this time." Is that what you just said? We already have troops there. We've kept between 30 and 50 thousand troops their ever since the so called armistice in 1953. I put in a tour over there, as did a lot of the fellows commenting on this.

I think those that are the quickest at wanting to get involved should be the ones that get involved. It's easy to declare war sitting behind a computer in a cushy office or living room, but it's another thing to go be in a foxhole with a rifle when there's artillery shells falling all over the place around you.

In case you don't know it, Wal Mart is the LARGEST chain of stores in the world, and the majority of products come from China. WE are selling out the US to China every day. We are deep in their debt, they own property all over the US, they are sending junk products for us to buy - and we keep buying them. Most of the large musical instrument companies in the US are having their instruments built at Samick, in China; GM is making big money right now, because of a large contract with China - but they will be making the trucks IN China. We won't see any of that money flowing in the US - jobs won't come back. We have more goods from China coming into the US than going to China. Americans are only concerned about being soft, warm and fuzzy, and don't care that Wal Mart is draining our economy. You should have seen the reaction, when I told people around me I wasn't going to buy anything more from Wal Mart. They treated me like I was a trouble - maker, a looney tunes. We're going down, because most Americans STILL believe - "it won't happen to me". Well, open your eyes, folks - it's already happening!

This is just a further manifestation of a dying country provoking its neighbor for attention. Again, just make sure we keep them in their box and wait them out to implode. This is a tough situation for their starving people but their good buddies, China can supply food aid. Not one cent of USA resources for the high maintenance child that is North Korea.

As for a "proportional" response, a few missiles to knock out some of their artillery batteries embedded in sea cliffs should do the trick.

Aurora: I, for one, appreciate your honesty, even if it isn't PC. The others are simply ignoring history, survival, and the nature of the beast. This is the Planet of the Apes and some are brighter than others. If we are to survive we need to wrest the power (nuclear especially) away from the most crude and illiterate. This show of power by N. Korea is another result of a weak Administration and a world that appears to have it's head in the clouds.

North Korea needs to be taken down in quick, decisive fashion. None of this pussy-footing rules-of-engagement bull$hit like in Afghanistan. I hate to say it because of the inevitable toll of innocent human suffering, but the longer the West waits the stronger and crazier the North gets and the worse it will be for all parties.

Funny, the most obvious of topics still has not hit the table. Where does Korean Oil come from? Where does Chinese oil come from? I am pretty sure that neither country has an abundant surplus. ( not really.. I am positive ). Then you might ask why China is buying so much gold now.

Again it is all very simple... Follow the money.

I'm old. I remember when the goal was world peace. We thought we were going to spend all that war money on humanitarian projects and space exploration.

America will be drawn into this conflict once again in time. When it happens, I can only hope Obama will be decisive and swift in his actions. We will soon see how well Obama manages his own war. A war NOT started by Bush! Who ever takes office in 2012 will be able to blaim Obama for the mess we are in if this is'nt resolved quickly. I also believe if we get pulled into this war, we get to keep the land once we conquer it. Not rebuild thecrushed sovereign nation; rather, replace it and make it part of the USA.

If all we want to do is change the leadership of the nation, then arrange assassinations so the North Koreans can fill the void with something new. It would be a lot cheaper then paying with American lives to ultimately give the land back anyways. Seriously, lets get this thing over and move on quickly this time.

Oh, and another thing. That new nuclear site? It is time to vaporize it as a show of force letting North Korea know there will be consequences to their actions.

I like the part about making NK part of the USA.

Kim is groping odumbo like he is airport security or something. Hope odumbo acts quicker than the two months it took before taking action on the oil spill!

Longhair.....I agree with you. it is time to let North and South Korea go at it. The only problem right now is that we would be smack in the middle of it and the U.S. cannot afford to become engaged in another war. We do not have the manpower or equipment to fight a 3 front war. And that is what we would be doing. As I see it, If they are going to go at then we have to do one of two things. We are either going to have to get our people out of there first or if we are going to get involved, pull all our people and equipment out of Iraq and Afganistan and send them to Korea and this time finish the job instead of calling a "cease Fire".

I believe this is called an "act of war". I don't know how much wiggle room either side has anymore. The Chinese carry great weight with the N. Korean government. Either they condoned it, are a part of it, or are looking to see where it goes from here? BO inherited 2 wars. Can he carry us into another one? Our guys are there now, been there since the Korean war. We're stretched way too thin, just don't have the people to defend with. Afghanistan wants us out. Give them what they want. Get the last 50,000 out of Iraq. We need to regroup and get ready. They are watching us for an indication of where we stand. We owe them from 1950.

Could this be as simple a matter as N Korea has to generate "threats" to keep its own people cowed? One of the ways tyrants keep themselves in power is to convince their people that there is an outside threat that they are in peril from. Then the people forget their lot under the tyrant and worry about the "threat." I cant help but wonder if North Korea's leadership has to manufacture these "crisis du jour" to maintain power??????

Pathman-334830

Could this be as simple a matter as N Korea has to generate "threats" to keep its own people cowed? One of the ways tyrants keep themselves in power is to convince their people that there is an outside threat that they are in peril from. Then the people forget their lot under the tyrant and worry about the "threat." I cant help but wonder if North Korea's leadership has to manufacture these "crisis du jour" to maintain power??????

No different then Afghanistan. The majority of the Afghan people don't know anything about 9-11. The people of North Korea are no different. They too have no access to what is really going on in the World. They are kept in the dark due to all of the propaganda Kim has been throwing around on his government controlled media programming.

After saying that, I have just experienced a flash back of a Democratic Senator recently wanting our government to shut down Fox News. Hmm.. sounds socialistic to me especially when the the news company appears to be against the establishment which is needed in America to keep things balanced This is part of the check and balances we the people have to protect us from a government controlled media like EVERY socialistic/communist country has.

Act2: Funny.

Looking at this from a political/military perspective if I was in Kim Jong's position I couldn't think of a better time to push a few buttons and see what happens. North Korea's financial supporter and protector China is doing extremely well and has both hands deep in the U.S. economic pockets. The U.S. government just underwent a major power shift and the current Commander in chief in the U.S. is anything but. Throw in China building up a Navy and and holding a very large debt marker over our heads. The attention of the U.S. being diverted elsewhere and our economy on the brink of collapse.

They know they have a 2 year window to make it happen. Even the North Koreans have figured out that there won't be a Democrat as president in the U.S. come 2012 so they had better push the limits now before another Republican gets into office.

I see this as nothing more then a big brother telling his little brother to "Go over and throw some rocks at those kids over there and let's see what they do." Then telling him, don't worry when they see me standing here they will think twice if they decide they want to fight.

When I was in the Marines I spent some time in S. Korea and trained with their forces. It really is a beautiful place with a wonderful culture and population. I would hope that if something does happen that our current administration wouldn't just sit by and do nothing.

We haven't been able to finish the ragtag Taliban in almost 10 years and you ignorants want to fight with N. Korea, a country that has been entrenched for war for decades, with large amounts of heavy artillery in granite mountains, land mines, chemical weapons and the largest special ops forces in the world trained to do sabotage and raids, all brain washed communist fanatics, that fought us before and have no fear. You are crazy.

romilio

We haven't been able to finish the ragtag Taliban in almost 10 years and you ignorants want to fight with N. Korea, a country that has been entrenched for war for decades, with large amounts of heavy artillery in granite mountains, land mines, chemical weapons and the largest special ops forces in the world trained to do sabotage and raids, all brain washed communist fanatics, that fought us before and have no fear. You are crazy.

No, what's crazy is the thought of a nuclear North Korea providing plans, materials, and possible nuclear bombs to the highest bidder. That is crazy.

North Korea pulls this crap when ever they come to the conclusuin the western leaders (American) have no backbone. Next they'll get what they want in a series of negotiations, as the President (Through his Secretary of State), will bargain from a position of weakness. North Korea will walk away from this with American aide dollars in their pockets, and their nuclear program intact.

Same thing happened with Carter/Vance, Clinton/Albrecht, and will be SOP with Obama/Clinton. This is what happens when our leader is perceived as the "Paper Tiger" that he is.

DUDE-875416 That is crazy too, but does it changes the facts I just stated? I think not.

Exactly blzbub1959!

Obama wants people to remember him for specific things like HC reform, not going to war with North Korea.

act2--I loved it..oprompterman..alittle humor for a grime occasion..

n. korea has been saber rattling for awhile now...some say trying to get Ill's son ready for the takeover....the UN is now having a special meeting..I agree the UN has proven itself useless in a real war..they can barely handle shuttling supplies....

I am by no means well versed in the area, just what I hear on the news but I do not think this is good news by any means..it could escalate very easily..what will obama do? have been hearing for months that n. korea is the most dangerous country on the war watch now....will obama give them a lecture, a speech, suggest a beer summit, side with the enemy or run to the UN? stay turned for the next episode of___..hhhuuumm

romilio

DUDE-875416 That is crazy too, but does it changes the facts I just stated? I think not.

I didn't say it did change your point, I was simply illustrating that it is a more sobering thought of nuclear bombs being used then a war on the ground being fought. Neither are good granted, but the use of nuclear bombs will kill WAY more civilians then fighting face to face. Especially when those bombs are sold to terrorist organizations out to get America and its allies.

There is a line of thinking that Aurora is bringing to light. That is the human population is culled every hundred years or so by a great war. We have no natural predators but ourselves, so we keep the balance. It is an exercise in thought, and it would follow that we have not had a great war in almost 70 years save Vietnam (great as defined by casualties, not scope).

Like it or not, we make giants jumps forward during great conflicts. I hope, and I imagine Aurora does as well, that peace can be negotiated. But to ignore the intellectual discussion and resort to name calling is ignorant at best and dangerous at worse not to consider the possibility.

Still struggling in a war with a group of rag tag donkey riding terrorist from the 1800 era now projected to last out to 2014. Think NK just might be a little bit more of a challenge. Where would we be if the Taliban could muster up just half of NK capabilities? I also wonder if we would still maintain the same Afghanistan PC rules of engagement when dealing with the NK civilian population of starving children?

Too many posts:

@Longhair: Very unrealistic. First of all, China, as mentioned, is not about to stay out of helping their close ally, troublesome as it may be. We would not be stupid enough to stay out of it, given, I don't know...South Korea is key to defending our interests?

Anyway, I actually believe China is probably really pissed off at NK right now. China is patient, and huge, and wants to keep getting its edge under the radar. The quieter it is, the better it is for their dominance.

NK is likely running out of food, as usual, and having an internal power struggle. Conflict is in their interest, however, two problems with that. 1) they would get their asses beat six ways to Sunday in an all out war without Chinese intervention, and 2)See my point above. China has no interest in open conflict as it doesn't serve them.

All these points, said, however, assuming thinking people are in charge. Hard Liners in NK and China will not be thinking straight.

Sadly, no response is exactly what both China and NK are counting on. And the US probably won't respond because we have no interest in an open conflict. What we should do is what Reagan did in the 80's, which is a targetted air strike. The problem here is Libya had no allies. If we drop bombs, you better believe China would do something in return. Now, that doesn't mean I think its a bad idea.....but Republicans and Democrats in Congress will :P.

Likely, what will happen is SK will respond in a measured way. And we'll keep on starving NK, letting China feed them. It isn't really going to be a moral booster though. Nobody likes to siege. Its much better when you shed the blood of your enemy in the minds of the mob.

Fine, China gets South Korea, we will take Cuba.

China wins that one. South Korea has some awesome tech. We would get cigars.

I say let's look over North Korea and press China before they grow into the super country they are on track to becoming.
Take a hard stance America and force the chinese to cut ties with this country.

China is still in growth mode and they need a little shaking up for all of the security breaches by them with our electrical grids and with US intelligence.
Right now is the time to place pressure on China since their growth has not yet matured.
Besides that they continue to test America as well.
I think we need to show them the hammer and to show them that when they test us they will not be able to go back to the drawing board to try it again. Because the implications will be so devistating that they are not willing to place themselves at risk.
Being in competition with the US financially and technically is much different then launching missles and bombs!!!
We need to retaliate but skip over the little north Koreans and place hell a pressure on China!!!

If this step is not taken China has won the first battle against the Western Imperial Nations.
This will send a message to other enemies of this country as well as allies that we are WEAK!!!

Where in the heck is the response??????

They weren't scared to fire those missles are we scared to retaliate???

DUDE875416 -

Ummm... I wouldn't be so quick to conclude that a nuclear strike would kill vastly more people than an overland invasion. A major reason the bomb was used in Japan is that the estimated casualties of a land invasion were around 2 million!! North Korea has the 4th largest standing army in the world. They have dug numerous tunnels, that we know of, under the DMZ that would allow them to have 20 divisions of troops into Seoul in under an hour. Seoul and Pyongyang are very close on a map. Seoul is one of the largest cities in the world. A ground war in Korea cost tremendous amounts of lives.

South Korea's reaction reminds me of India.

Pakistan and North Korea have been fingering their much larger, much richer and much more militarily capable neighbors regularly for years.

But both south korea and India are basically mature democracies with no stomach for fighting a war which might economicall set them back decades or more. So everytime their neighbors finger them they go through the usual and familiar routine of saber-rattling and then quietly slink back and de-escalate to their normal routine.

Nothing has ever happened and nothing is gonna happen, especially since now the troublemakers have nukes. I guess south korea and India view these skirmishes and the consequent loss of life and property as necessary evil of co-existing with a belligerent neighbor. Sort of how retail stores annually write off several million dollars worth of broken / stolan merchandise as operational cost.

Obama wants a "multinational" solution. Hmm. Really? Because when Bush was cleaning up the 'Basketball Diplomacy' mess left by Bill Clinton and Madeline Albright, he was excoriated by the left for demanding the inclusion of China, Russia, South Korea, and Japan, in any negotiations between the US and North Korea. My, my, my how the commie pinkos change their tune when the shoe is on the other foot.

Somebody just needs to do a better job of "messaging" the Koreans that we are now in a "post-partisan" age. LMFAO!!!

Joe, a typical, fail level, foaming at the mouth, weak radical. Lost his voting power, whether he was of age or not, 30 years ago.

Thinking conservatives do not listen to this nonsense. Because neither Reagan, Bush Sr. or Bush W. were stupidly tempted into playing North Koreas game either. But don't tell him that! The world is one way or another! Like a coloring book.

You mean all these years of bending over backwards and allowing the Chinese to acquire, steal, and buy our most sensitive equipment, nuclear weapons designs, missile technology, and on-going intelligence gathering missions within the US, just to ensure that Wall-Mart and Starbucks and the rest of those companies get access to a billion plus customers....

Actually, that whole bit about a billion customers was just a red herring. Wal-Mart wanted a low cost supplier. The customers are YOU and other people in free countries. Ever notice that as good cease to be made in America and are replaced by goods made in China, the price doesn't go down? Our jobs and manufacturing capacity are being shipped overseas to maximize short term profits for retailers.

But the article is about North Korea. China isn't behind this escalation. North Korea is. In 20 years, Korea will be one unified nation. Let's not let it turn into radioactive cinder.

Aurora -

You might want to read your history books better! China did side with North Korea! In fact they attacked us during the war. One of the bigger battles was at the Chosin Reservoir. Google it. Russia was also supplying arms to both China and Korea.

I hope to hell nothing happens between the North and the South. We'll be right back in the midst of another Korean war, that by most accounts, has never ended.

The South can't possibly defend itself against the North. The North is a military superior to the South. Since the South are our allies, we would be fighting right along side of them.

@ Bill M NY

Diseases are human's natural predators. There were many instances throughout history when plagues wiped out large percentage of the population. So please reconsider your position. Please do not justify wars because it can cull our population. Diseases are already doing one hell of a job at it. We do not need another human killer.

Oh, gosh, Act2!

Oprompterman! I get it! You mean Obama! Because he reads from a prompter!
It's funny because you mean Obama who reads from a prompter!

And you said Pelosi's plane! It's funny because you don't like Pelosi so you made it her plane! My sides! They ache! The hilarity!

You should write for Family Circus! I'm crying! You!

It's nice to see all the prognosticators foretelling the outcome of this episode in Korea. Where were you before 9/11? We sure could have used your help back then. Guessing the outcome is not that hard, because, the choices are rather minimal, so your chances are pretty good at guessing the right answer. It's like staring at an approaching storm and foretelling the rain before it comes.

The bottom line is that North Korea violated the cease-fire that has been around for a long time.

And since they did this it's essentially a declaration of war on South Korea.

To put it another way they violated the cease fire.so one might argue that conflict was never up for in the first place.

So I say the South should give the North exactly what they want a nuclear weapon. Except not form their terms.

Only if South Korea kicks North Korea's common this tale once and for all will there be a united Korea.

But just wonder how the UN is going to react now. I bet they'll be when it's just like they've always been.the UN Security Council will do everything they can to try to see South Korea and North Korea from fighting. But the UN just needs to let school yard bully get its butt kicked.

Politicians are diplomats. As soon as a country goes to war they have failed. That's both sides have failed. Bush=2 wars. Obama=-1 war for those of you who know math.

I'm not sure where I stand on this one. An all out war at this time would be economically devestating for all involved. Judging from their actions, North Korea seems like a highly unpredictable foe and would likely have no regard for any sort of honorable conduct. South Korea being as densely populated as it is, war, especially a nuclear war, could spell disaster for many civilians.

At the same time, a second Korean war at some point in the future seems inevitable.

Hopefully war can be avoided. It is in each nation's best interest to avoid such a terrible thing.

However, having said that, it is obvious that N. Korea is in the hands of madmen. Kim Jong Il has proven time and again that he is mentally unstable and is quite capable of just about anything, including engaging in a war that would devastate his people and his nation (not that he appears to care).

For those who say that we should just abandon S. Korea if war does happen, I would ask you this. Do promises mean nothing to you? Do you place no value on your given word? For that is what the US has given S. Korea. Our word and our promise that we will stand with them as their ally.

To break our word and our alliance at such a time would do nothing except prove us as cowards and oathbreakers in the eyes of the world. And please don't use our treatment of the Native Americans as an excuse. Yes, we broke our word to the various tribes and on multiple occasions. Yes, it will always be a black stain on our record as a nation and I'm aware that almost all nations down through history have done it.

That still doesn't make it right.

I do not see very much surprising about these actions in North and South Korea. I realize for those born or raised after what they thought was post Cold war America, it may seem a bit shaky, but really, its business as usual between those guys. North Korea is the poster child for inferiority complex in a National Identity. Everything they embark on is for intentional show of power at is worst. I feel if North Korea stopped acting like an impetuous child, kicking and screaming every time they don't get what they want, or more precisely, what they DEMAND. They could be a very productive Nation.

May as well place that START treaty on the fire in the oval office now... it will make good firewood starter... as if it should have ever been passed anyway. This President has NO BUSINESS making long term treaties with other Nations we could go to war with... he simply does not have OUR best interest at heart... he has his agenda and his agenda alone at heart. It takes away all of our DEFENSIVE MISSILE capabilities while not changing any of Russia's OFFENSIVE Mid-Range Missile capabilities... It is a losing treaty for America and a Leveler of the playing field for Russia, giving back the ground we spent BILLION & BILLIONS to have over them. NEVER give away defensive capabilities... FOOLS do such things.

The Cold war is not over... They (Russia, China, N. Korea) just needed to make a little money to keep up with us. And now, because of our short sighted ignorance in trade agreements....they have done so. And in a big way. NEVER, EVER Trust a Marxist.... you know they have started lying when their mouth begins to move.

People, massive wars have started over less than this. Let's tread carefully here.

AuroraF,

The U.S. has around 30,000 troops in South Korea who would be endangered if the war between North and South Korea were to resume. With the U.S. economy a shambles and our military already overextended in Iraq and Afghanistan, I am sure the U.S. government is far less eager to get into yet another war than you are. What you can expect to happen, unless the North Koreans do something far more outrageous still than they have, is that the U.S. and South Korea will talk tough, while the U.S. does everything in its power behind the scenes to restrain South Korea from restarting the war. A Renewal of the Korean War could result in millions of deaths. So don't be such a ghoul.

The Lil Kims' know we're overextended and that is why they do this. I don't think this is the Father getting his last kicks but the Son getting his first. Young and gung-ho he will have big ideas before he is put in his place. Send in a hit squad to do them both. Then maybe some of their wealth can go to buy food for a starving Nation. Send in an ops team and do it quietly and without any national recognition.

Auora1,

In a way you're totally coreect, in another way its a little scary you think of it like that....

I dont know why someone doesnt just take out Kim jong-il? No... that would just solve most the problems..

bsbfankaren...You say..."If China had wanted it, South Korea would have ceased to exist long ago." Then you go on to say..."China knows the US, Japan and other world powers will jump into the fray on South Korea's behalf..."

Somewhat of a contradiction, but, you do realize that China has been getting its a$$ kicked for centuries now. Until recently, it wasn't even considered a real world power. All they had was a billion people and that was it.

The last 10 or so years has been the difference. Cash flow from the West, modern technology, stolen and bought from the West and no doubt Japan and S. Korea and getting back Hong Kong in 1997 was like a country gaining a NY City. In a short time, they have been able to virtually catch up with the US and other world powers.

China will not engage in anything that will cause more US forces to come to the area, yet. I'm sure N. Korea is getting on their nerves because this is not something they want to deal with presently. However, that said, N. Korea serves as a buffer between US and US friendly forces and the China mainland. If China allows N. Korea to continue with their nuclear endeavors, they know that the US will have second thoughts about firing missiles over or invading through N. Korea. If they keep N. Korea militarily strong and let them develop nuclear weapons, the US would have to stand down to simple defense for S. Korea and China knows this. While we are tied up in protecting S. Korea, China will in 1-2 days take Taiwan back, along with all that US technology we've been selling to Taiwan. I believe China will figure the US will not chance going to war with N. Korea and China at the same time and risk a possible nuclear attack by N. Korea. Not only that, but Russia can sit back and play neutral on this one as long as none of it spills into their territory.

So while China sits and waits for their new technologies to be fielded and tested and N. Korea builds its nukes, we will have to figure out if East Asia is worth a possible 3rd World War.

Its my guess that in the next few years, we are going to see China flexing its military might all over Asia and maybe even see its ships cruising international waters off the US coast and Chinese fighter jets testing US fighters in cold war style skirmishes.

No doubt, the world seems to be heading in that direction. A country like China will need close to 4 times the resources that the US needs. You do the math and you can see that China cannot sustain its growth without a significant increase in natural resources. In fact, if China continues to grow as rapidly as it has in the last decade, we could see gas prices hit $10-$20 per gallon if not more. At that price, the US will have to turn into a major oil supplier just to offset the damage to the US economy. We'll be drilling everywhere there is oil. It is bound to happen soon if we don't do something about it.

I fear the world is going to get real "ugly" real soon.

This is typical of the media to make it appear in the headline that N. Korea is stirring up @!$%# when it appears after reading, it was the south.

it's amazzing how many people seem to think that it is OUR call (USA) to decide on whether or not north and south Korea get into a war.

sorry folks, but that is a decision to be made by the two Koreas, not us

it is our place to back up the south if the two do decide to go at each other.

south Korea has the strength to repell any attack by the north, and to likely finish off any military strength the north has, the north's equipment is mostly obsolete, although still capable of doing extensive damage to south Korea's northern cities (especially Seoul). south Korea would take a brutal beating to their economy and to their country, but they would come out on top even without our help.

Though war is technically good for the economy, especially if it enables us to export more goods to the asian market

most of the exports would come from the exporter that is closest to those affected (China)

China got its a$$ kicked in a major way in WWII by Japan which also held all of Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, Burma, Indonesia and Manchuria at the time. This contradicts the judgement that China can overwhelm other nations by the sheer numbers of its population. The military power equation is not that simple. The power comparison is really army vs. army, navy vs. navy and air force vs. air force.

danwill,

You are right that the two Koreas will ultimately decide whether or not they go to war, but you would be naive to think the U.S. does not have a great deal of influence in the matter with 30,000 of its troops stationed there. You can be sure the U.S. is working behind the scenes right now with the South Koreans on this matter.

I predict................................NOTHING.

Nothing will happen. I can see the South or the US apologizing to the North or the UN sending a letter stating that wasn't nice and to stop being aggressive.

I was in Seoul 2 years ago in a military capacity. I can speak from experience. Anyone above who has served military time has more insight than the armchair posters. As stated previously, North Korea acts like a demanding child and stomps its foot and screams when it doesnt get its way.

If they were to go to war, North Korea has plenty of military hardware that is old and worn and might not be able to withstand extended combat. They would get off a few good rounds, but that wont last. Seoul would take a beating but South Korea would win. Seoul would have to be rebuilt.

The way South Korea would win is once the Northern Hoard crossed over, they would be overwhelmed with technology, food, wealth, and FAMILY. They would throw down their arms and embrace the way of the capitalistic South. They would want to flourish.

North Koreans are ON AVERAGE 20% smaller, thinner and less educated than their Southern counterparts. The reason they are smaller is because of malnutrition. They call it 'The EATING problem'. Kim Jong Il has run his country into oblivion and the citizens only believe what they hear from the government. Once they SEE the South, they will know they were lied to. KJI has cut down all the trees on the DMZ for fuel, his country is STARVING. They are killing themselves from within.

Go to google images and look for North Korea at night. The only lit city is Pyongyang. They live in the dark (in more ways than one) under a dictator who feeds his family and lets his own people needlessly die.

While I hope an escalation can be avoided, I also realize at some point that Lil' Kim Jock Itch has to be called on the carpet for his belligerent behavior !! We can't continue our usual pattern of rewarding him to stop him from misbehaving. At some point one of his "tantrums" is going to be a massive attack and millions of lives could be lost or ruined. Hopefully China will decide that this is not in their financial interests and put Lil' Kim's dunce cap back on!!

Military industries around the world must be quaking in excitement as another possibly huge profit-making opportunity comes into view. Now, if only they can find a way to exasperate the situation. Auto companies may come and go, but companies that make guns, tanks, missiles and other fun stuff will never go out of business. What a silly world.

I like the part about making NK part of the USA.

do you really want to add 50 million psychotic welfare cases to our rolls? The northerners don't know how to do anything at all for themselves without government orders, it's not that they won't, it's that they genuinely don't know how to, even the very concept is alien to them. they don't know how to do things like pay rent, have a checking account, pay bills, etc.

it takes a couple of years for northern defectors to the south to adjust to the reality that the government won't do it for you.

, but you would be naive to think the U.S. does not have a great deal of influence in the matter with 30,000 of its troops stationed there. You can be sure the U.S. is working behind the scenes right now with the South Koreans on this matter.

absolutely, we definitely have plenty of influence, just not the final say.

@ dr cat

Military industries around the world must be quaking in excitement as another possibly huge profit-making opportunity comes into view

they won't make any profit off of NK, NK doesn't have any money or exports to pay anybody with. South Korea uses either home-built, or American equipment for the most part.

kind of knocks down your "profitable war" idea a bit.

Here's the way this needs to go down, the very next time that the North pulls a stunt like this (and it will likely come soon) the South needs to execute an absolute scorched earth bombing of the 1 mile strip immediately north of the DMZ, simultaneously launch its heaviest warships and air force into all key NK harbors sinking every ship in those harbors and bomb the living crap out of every NK nuke facility that they can draw a bead on.

The U.S. should firmly and clearly support the defensive actions of SK and add to that support that if the NK even looks like they are thinking about retaliating that the next time that SK comes at them it will be with the full support of every plane, ship, missile and piece of artillery that we have in the region.

Balloon pretty.

post of the day imo...

danwill wrote:

@ dr cat

they won't make any profit off of NK, NK doesn't have any money or exports to pay anybody with. South Korea uses either home-built, or American equipment for the most part.

kind of knocks down your "profitable war" idea a bit.

Doesn't knock it down at all. North Korea doesn't have to have money. They'll get it from allies that do have the cash and will support them in the war. Just like the "funding" that many poorer nations get from the U.S.

Do you get the feeling that kim is shaking in his boots because of the sanctions and threats?

The fact is that China is still jerking Obama around. North Korea couldn't even continue to exist without China. Didn't Michael Moore demand that Obama take off the tutu for the boxing gloves?

As Americans, we can all don the boxing gloves this holiday season and "just say no" to China until they get their psychotic ally under control. Enough is enough. Just say no to China.

Waterdog49 wrote:

As Americans, we can all don the boxing gloves this holiday season [...]

It's beginning to look a lot, like, Christmas...

Hope I get that Red Ryder BB gun I want.

the human race is not evolved as a species for example ants, insects and most packs or herds of animals war over land, food, territory, we are no different although in our guise as appearance it seems the opposite.

our lack of respect for this existence and often times a quest for either heaven or salvation is a clue as to humans need for escape or blissful ignorance.

the instinctual pattern of warring is cyclical and persistent. As a species we are daft and intolerant, while in search of knowledge-obviously which leads to one conclusion: we have not found an answer.............

-but to what?

MikeAlike (independent recording artist)

The $1800 one?

Fianchetto: If you're not there already, I think that you should go over there and defend your North Korean buddies. Let us know how it's going. Outrageous comment. South Korea has the right to do whatever it wants on its own territory, especially practicing its own defense, which is necessary.

Mass Graves wrote:

the human race is not evolved as a species [...]

I would say that some people are more evolved than others. But unfortunately, while there are exceptions, it's these "others" who always tend to be in positions of political power.

Mass Graves -

As a species we are daft and intolerant, while in search of knowledge-obviously which leads to one conclusion we have not found and answer.............

-but to what?

What will make the world a better place for Humanity.

As the dominant species on this planet (supposedly) it is our duty to use the intelligence it takes to maintain our dominancy to insure the growth, welfare, and expansion of life on this planet. Strength and Power should only be used to build and improve, never to destroy.

By time China has the military power to make the U.S. blink, Japan will have build a super death robot, so I'm not worried about China.

Obama must be estatic.

Nothing like the perception war provides to boost the economy or save a flailing presidency...

Act2: Good one! In my old age, I can't remember. Did he ever dive down and fix the BP well as he suggested? What a dumbass comment for a POTUS. As if that is the extent of the resources and expertise at his fingertips, if he only had a clue in the first place. God help us all.

mgo: I'm with you on the UN. Under the current scenario, not worth any time or effort anymore. We should drop out for once and for all. Just don't expect Bloomberg, Mr. PC himself, to throw them out of NYC as he should. As to China, I wish that it were that easy. We've managed to complicate ourselves in a very, very dangerous relationship that may just destroy us as a nation. Personally, I've dramatically cut down on consumption in general as it seems that everything affordable to me today is made in China. Just say no. That's all that I can do as a common citizen.

Derek: The one thing that I'm really sick of hearing at this point is that "China is probably really pissed off at NK". Right now, this line has become very tired and old. Why should I care if China is pissed off at NK right now? I want action from China, and if not, then our "POTUS in a tutu" needs to do a serious re-evaluation of our continuing relationship (and trade!) with China. As POTUS, he has the ability to do this. I can easily live without Wal-mart and Home Depot, and I, personally, don't owe China a dime. I'll just preserve my paint brushes instead of buying new. Not a problem. Individual Americans need to start taking our own destiny in our hands. Difficult when the man in the WH is still wearing a tutu and going around the world apologizing on our behalf.

How about bringing the troops home.

Fixing the economy.

Keeping the United States safe, by protecting the borders.

And only deal with anything outside the USA if they attack us first.

Let any other situation be dealt by with the rest of the 6.700.000.000 people living in the world.

How about making America the place it once was again instead of slowly rotting it down. How about not leaving the blood on the Americans hands anymore?

China is suppose to take it's responsibility and deal with North Korea.

I hope we do not get into a full scale war with our US Military again in NK. This one could lead to a NUKE war. It's getting closer. So tired of War in Afghanistan, now possibly North Korea?.

The Old guy from North Korea is rattling our cage, at the expense of South Korea. He means business, and President Obama better react like a War President with this country.

With Obama in charge the free world is toast.

TRANSLATION OF THIS ACTION:

Regional powers, including China, have not been sending enough "aid" (otherwise know as blackmail.)

So, NOK destabilizes the region, trade, investment capitol, and tourism all suffer, and payments to the regime are inched up.

Nothing very mysterious really.

Just what we need is another war front in the World. I am tired of paying taxes for this kind of crap.

Is this otrauma's idea of world peace by 2012? He has shown nothing but weakness since he has been in office. Otrauma has disenfranchised all of our allies and bowed to all the muslim nations and we have absolutely nothing to fall back on "destruction of the American Currency, START, DREAM ACT, FILING CHARGES AGAINST AMERICAN STATES, RESTRAINING ORDERS FOR UPHOLDING THE LAW AND CONSTITUTION. This POS menstration of govt has and is destroying everything FREEDOM stands for.

Who said anything about "world peace by 2012"? Making stuff up on the fly again?

As a liberal democrat, Obama voter and supporter, and yet as a Navy vet, I think we should send in our conventional cruise missiles to take out the reactors, once and for all. No more Mr. Nice Guy. Sanctions don't work and never have. All we end up doing, and I mean EVERY administration, is to end up supplying NK with "humanitarian aid", petroleum, and other means of support. Enough of that. We should cause some direct harm, show them what they are really up against, and then tell them if they shape up, back off and get serious about complying with international law, we'll consider resuming humanitarian-type aid on a trial basis. NK is the threat, not the US, and not SK. Time to treat them as such, and hit 'em where it really hurts. Quick, painless, relatively cheap, and done. For once.

generic name thinks it funny but people died and a great deal more are at risk because of stupid people beating their chest and acting like idiots

Otrauma has disenfranchised all of our allies and bowed to all the muslim nations

no, Bush did that. he basically told every one of our allies to go to he11 and that we were going to do whatever we wanted to do.

he was also the one that had been steadily kissing the butts of the saudis (the real 9/11 bombers). all of that in order to make his familys oil wealth even greater at the expense of all the rest of Americans.

Dude8754..., We do not want to make North Korea part of the U.S., as we do not Need Another PUERTO RICO, were 50% of the Population GENERATIONAL-LY live off WELFARE as a CAREER. We need to give Puerto Rico their Independence against their will.

ivanho75

DUDE875416 -

Ummm... I wouldn't be so quick to conclude that a nuclear strike would kill vastly more people than an overland invasion. A major reason the bomb was used in Japan is that the estimated casualties of a land invasion were around 2 million!! North Korea has the 4th largest standing army in the world. They have dug numerous tunnels, that we know of, under the DMZ that would allow them to have 20 divisions of troops into Seoul in under an hour. Seoul and Pyongyang are very close on a map. Seoul is one of the largest cities in the world. A ground war in Korea cost tremendous amounts of lives.

I did not say a nuclear bomb would kill more people. I stated it would kill more civilians as compared to a ground war.

mgo-1426388

Dude8754..., We do not want to make North Korea part of the U.S., as we do not Need Another PUERTO RICO, were 50% of the Population GENERATIONAL-LY live off WELFARE as a CAREER. We need to give Puerto Rico their Independence against their will.

I understand the concern about more "entitlements" being thrown around but that is a Democrat thing. I don't support "entitlements" so I would expect Korea, or any other State of the USA for that matter, to show fiscal responsibility through responsible spending. That is a whole different topic and really has nothing to do with my belief that America should be compensated for fighting other peoples wars.

Not cool, China should step in if their debt is to be paid... Smile :-)

Since my comment was deleted without explanation and with over 40 likes, here it is again.

Have no fear we will send in our new superhero to the rescue, "O'Prompterman!

Faster than a speeding bullet point.

More powerful than a bold statement.

Able to leap tall podiums in a single bound.

What's he looking at in the sky?

Is it a bird? Is it Pelosi's plane?'

No, It's his teleprompter!

Yes it is O'Prompterman - strange

visitor from Kenya who came to us with

speaking powers far beyond those of

mortal man. O'Prompterman - who can

"change" the course of the mighty forefathers,

bend the constitutional laws by signing bills

with his bare hands, and, who, disguised as

an American citizen, mild mannered

community organizer, he fights a never

ending battle for half truths, justice with

empathy, and the socialist way!

Since your comment is still irrelevant, I'll repost mine:

Oh, gosh, Act2!

Oprompterman! I get it! You mean Obama! Because he reads from a prompter!
It's funny because you mean Obama who reads from a prompter!

And you said Pelosi's plane! It's funny because you don't like Pelosi so you made it her plane! My sides! They ache! The hilarity!

You should write for Family Circus! I'm crying! You!

act2, it was deleted because it was utterly irrelevant and had absolutely nothing to do with Korea.

apparently you'll listen to glen beck and limbaugh spout half-truths all day and claim they are gospel

Really, then in that case your comments should have been deleted also since they were more irrelevant than mine since you were responding to an irrelevant statement! Maybe it is the left leaning MSNBC? Usually a monitor will tell you why but not in my case!

"Oh yeah, well your comment is more irrelevant times infinity because yours is responding to a response about an irrelevant statement"

That's the kind of childish response I see from you.

Let me explain this to you justcurt. If my comment was deleted due to irrelevancy, then a reply to an irrelevant comment should be deleted also since it is even more irrelevant. Especially when the original was deleted! Duh

act2, I don't actually disagree on your last, but the mods apparently have better things to do than to scour and delete all the responses to an irrelevant post.

(and aren't we getting more and more irrelevant here?) ;)

Locutus,

What, are you in the 6th grade? Isn't it past your bed time?

No, just on his second childhood, or is it 3rd or 4th

Follow yes it was an act of war. The thing about this act is that it is an escalation of an existing war. The war never ended only a cease fire was signed. What has kept this war from erupting again was the very existence of NATO, OK mostly American, forces. With North Korea in the state that it is in it was bound to happen. The problem now is that the North has gone nuclear. Since Seoul is so close to the DMZ it wouldn't take much of a shot.

I can't believe people are actually hoping for war.Only an idiot would want further escalation in this matter.Ever heard the term war mongerer.I guess we could risk the lives of OUR AMERICAN soldiers for your own personal gratification, but that seems a bit selfish to me.People die in war and misery for both countries involved.Go see a shrink pls.

Think of all the US troops in South Korea on high Alert! They are locked and loaded awaiting a reaction or orders. I was in these alert lock downs before and it is a scary thing in this country. These mindless chess matches have been around for years and only the players are different. The waiting game starts and threats are made the military there hasno where to go. Retaliatoryactions need not be made and but readiness must be plain. This must be a reactive defence to not aggravate the situation or give provocation to the enemy waiting for an excuse.

There will be no war. You would need another Bush or Reagan in office for something like that to occur nowadays. The Dems are too much of a bunch of wussies to get into a fight. The most that would happen would be for the Dems to hold hands, sing Kumbaya, condemn N.K. and sanction them. Other than that nothing will happen to N.K.

the dems got us into korea, vietnam and both world wars. my thought here is why so much intensity over a treaty with russia when it is korea, iran, or pakistan who will start a nuclear war. none have any concern for human life and feel all powerful. russia is no more likely toi use nukes than we are.

Pork Chop Hill all over again.

I wanted to go back to 1950 but skip the Korean "police action."

I'm referring to today not 60 years ago.

It was Kim's brother, Mena Li Ill.

Where the hell is Tom Cruise and his "Mission Impossible" team? Thats all that is needed-take care of those fat bastards!!

This is South Korea's problem. We being the police of the world is one of the reasons for us being broke. We spend twice that of the entire rest of the world combined on our military, why? It's to fight other country's battles that's why, and that is why those other country's have so much more loose change available than us. And how has US fighting other country's battles benefited "We the People"? Answer: It hasn't.
Now for the other's with their rhetoric. What did President Bush do about North Korea? Answer: Nothing. What did President Bush do about Iran? Answer: Nothing. I guess that even President Bush knew that we can't declare war on the entire world just to fight other peoples battles.
South Korea just said no to a Fair Trade Agreement, but now we are supposed to fight their battle. My son is a carreer Soldier. He has fought in Iraq twice and was wounded, and he has also been in South Korea three seperate times. Enough already.
Signed: A former Marine during Vietnam. Semper Fi. Just sick of this garbage.

Andy-1553277 - The situation in Korea has nothing to do with political parties. Your comments are simply out of order. Think a minute - we are already in two wars, an economic crisis, and dealing with many more problems. We have a "tripwire" force in place in S. Korea in part to make the North think not only twice but several more times before anything extremely serious takes place.

S. Korea is a very important participant in American global enterprises. Renewed war on the peninsula would be horrendously devastating, not only to the people there, but the world in general. Certainly China and Russia don't want to see the North go rogue and restart the conflict, and neither does the U.S.

All you contribute with remarks as above is another political hate crime drive-by shooting.

buffalo bob-937857 - Your grasp of history is rather weak. The U.S. most reluctantly joined WWI in 1917, partly under very strong Republican pressure on the White House after repeated loss of neutral American merchant ships, sailing to neutral territory, to German U-Boats. The U.S. stayed out of WWII until the Japanese attacked at Pearl Harbor. The U.S. got into Vietnam in 1956 under President Eisenhower, a Republican, when America guaranteed to protect South Vietnam under the Geneva Accords. American involvement was greatly expanded and carried over into neighboring countries by Republican Richard Nixon, who had been elected in 1968 with a promise to get us out of Vietnam.

Another example of misinformed, political hate crime drive-by.

Dear Andy,

I realize that many "Die-hard conservatives" such as you would love to blame Obama for the lack of warmongering and needless interference in foreign affairs, however, most of you lack the simple common sense to fully understand the danger of a situation.

North Korea is a terribly dangerous country, and the reason that they are so dangerous is not because of KJI specifically, it is because N. Korea has very close ties to China, and China has recently evolved into the second largest economy in the world. Our economies are basically intertwined, with many thanks to Bill Clinton, and any economist will tell you that if they were to pull away from our economic relations it would be detrimental in a very fragile time for our economy. China has already given their ambiguous stance of "everyone stay calm," but it has been greatly speculated by intelligence agencies that China would be likely to side with North Korea due to the financial ties that they have with the nation and their desire to acquire North Korea for military/economic purposes.

We have troops spread in Afghanistan and even still in Iraq, and knowing that they are spread so thin would not be strategically practical in initiating an attack in foreign territory. If you are so dim as to think an attack would simply mean a wipe-out of North Korean forces than you need to pick up a book or even a magazine and inform yourself of the complex situation that exists in the Koreas. Also, if you think that Obama would not react rationally in a situation requiring the use of force, please remember the situation in which the Somali pirates interfered with allied ships, and Obama (despite naysayers claims he would do nothing) had them sniped and taken care of quite effectively.

The situation is a little bit more complicated than your tiny head can obviously understand, so perhaps when you learn a little bit more about the intricate details of the situation you can add your senseless Obama-hatred into the equation. Until then, continue to look like a fool.

We have a commitment to protect and support this nation and we must stand by our word. We can not be confident in ourselves unless we have the confidence of others. We are tired of these countries and the wars but we must stand together to battle the true evils of this world or parish by them. We should not consider ourselves the worlds peace keepers but a country that supports humanity's well being and peaceful coexistence to ensure our survival.

In your history you somehow skipped the Kennedy, Johnson escalation of the war. When Nixon became President we were very heavily involved, and Nixon did end the war, maybe it was to get re-elected but he did pull out all troops.

I'm not a dem or a rep. I hate politics and bureaucracies. I don't like media involvements in war and I think we need to go in kick ass and get out. then debate on about the pieces after. but that will never happen. too many rules require that our hands be tied around our backs. Like the enemy really cares about rules of engagement! They would scalp us the first chance they get and we have to worry about their feelings. Yeah that wins wars.

Sadly what we have is a country that is acting like a school yard bully. When I was younger I found that reasoning usually resulted in more bulling. You can threaten, but to a bully it means nothing. Sadly the bully that we are dealing with is a nuclear armed bully, but this can not stop our reply or in the end these idiots might just send one flying because they seem to think that there will be no response. What needs to be done is the next time they try something like this, destroy the whole fire bases that these shells are coming from and then for good measure destroy the base they are stationed at.

Could they go nuclear, of course, but we can not cower in fear and let these little belligerent peasants get by with what ever they wish. And if they do dare send a nuke, I pray that we can bring it down and then go in with B-2 and f-22's and destroy every nuclear compound that they have.

Well, I certainly apologizing for mis-categorizing you, and agree that politics and bureaucratic agencies are frustrating and often miscalculating.

The situation that has been created has been worsened by members of each party, though it is no secret that Clinton really nailed our economic coffin with policies of China. It benefited his presidency, but not necessarily our future.

I am merely arguing that a complete assessment of the political and our global position is necessary in assessing the dangers of N. Korea and is absolutely not a situation that can be addressed with haste.

Also, I disagree with your comment that we are worried about their feelings. Yes, some radicals may argue "what about the innocent bystanders," but I think this situation is very much to do with the global economic balance. Often war can help a nation's economy, but in this situation there is a possibility it can destroy ours (notice, POSSIBILITY, I am not saying anything is certain how can we possibly predict the future?) which is why the foreign policy in this situation must remain cautious.

Conflict are won with a cool head. Not some idiot who's answer is to blow things up without thinking. Win the people, win the war.

How do you win the people who have been brain washed for 60 years. hugs, puppies and rainbows? maybe we could invite them over for christmas. my mom makes awesome eggnog.

jerry l-1335133 - Kennedy indeed expanded American presence in Vietnam, although primarily in support of South Vietnam's forces, and he took us into Laos as well. There was signs that he was leaning toward taking the U.S. out of Indochina at the time he was assassinated - in fact, one theory advanced about his murder was that some business and government figures conspired because they disagreed with Kennedy's disenchantment in that venture.

The real escalation occurred after the Gulf of Tonkin incident in 1964 when LBJ decided to commit much larger numbers of troops to the conflict. However, in 1969 Nixon really pushed the button. International censure, mounting casualoties, and discord at home played a big role in finally changing his approach to the war. So did his famous rapproachement with China.

The real point to my previous post was to show that BB's remarks were shallow and untrue. And America did get into the war under Eisenhower in 1956. There's a superb history of much of the war - published a couple of years before American withdrawals - by Francis Firtzgerald, Fire in the Lake.

I don't think China will let North Korea hide behind her skirts on this one. They'll stay clear. The problem with North Korea is not so much that they have nuclear weapons, but that they have an enormous number of conventional missles and a very large standing army. They can unquestionably wreak havoc with or without radioactivity.

Expect a Security Council condemnation and threat of embargo.

UFCKNIGHTS--

Well written and well thought. I "feel" that you are an Obama fan--I am not, but I couldn't agree more.

One other point that needs to be made to the people that seem to think that jumping into yet another war is just dandy is this--one of the main reasons that the situation w/Korea is so delicate is because they allegedly have nuclear arms...fact is, ALL DEALINGS become intricate with a country that can disagree with your point of view to the tune of x-value in megatons. This, to me, is a boon for:

a) decisively finishing the entanglements America is already involved in; aka: take the gloves off and give the Taliban all they want in the way of a pounding; and

b) NOT get involved in any more wars if at all possible.

Yet, South Korea is our ally. They came (not a huge number) to Vietnam and other conflicts that we have been involved in, and they have exhibited some measure of due diligence during times when it was appropriate to rally to our banner. It will be very interesting ( in a heavy-hearted kind of way) to see what comes from this; especially amid speculation that the contrails in the sky off the coast earlier this month were from a Chinese missile sub AND speculation that the cruise liner may have been hit by a Chinese based EMP weapon. Make no mistake, war with Korea is equivalent to war with China. Whether through open involvement or covertly implemented efforts, China will toss its lot for North Korea.

Don't you just hate speculation?

Wow -- some history lessons are in order on this thread today!

First - let's look at who got us into Vietnam. It was actually TRUMAN who started the ball rolling when he supported returning French Indochina to the French after WWII (Roosevelt would not have wanted that to happen, knowing what a horrible colonizing country France was.) Also, during WWII the OSS allied with Ho Chi Minh against the Japanese then would not recognize him later (a big mistake). We stand with the French against the Vietnamese. Those were the seeds of the VN war. We were formally committed by Eisenhower,and it was under Kennedy and Johnson (as someone pointed out earlier) that the conflict escalated.

We can continue to look at Truman for the beginnings of the Korean War.

What has generally happened, the Republicans have "set up" the wars and the Democrats have had to either jump or clean them up -- much as is the case today.

The lesson to be learned? You can't blame one party or the other for going to war. The political reality is much more complicated than that.

For your edification I'll leave you with a quote from a military genius whose book "On War" is required reading for all officers and upper level enlisted personnel:

"War is not merely a political act, but also a political instrument, a continuation of political relations, a carrying out of the same by other means," Carl Philipp Gottlieb von Clausewitz

For those of you advocating "kick ass and take names" or, as Bush put it "shock and awe", I recommend a perusal of the book.

Truman felt he had little choice as both Vietnam and Korea were going to become Communist governments; mainly because nations like France had been capitalists.

That's right--

It was part of the containment policy--

Oh, and Truman was a Democrat btw. I don't see how the statement "Republicans have 'set up' wars" holds any water at all. Wars happen...again, and again, and again. Every successful nation has been forced to marshal forces for the simple reason that people-when bothered by other people under a different flag; inevitably find themselves wanting to blow each other to smithereens...get used to it--it's one of the few constants in life humanity can count on...

i cant believe how quick people are to say that we should just go in a kick ass. I doesnt work that way anymore. look at iraq and afganistan. still there 10 years later and it would be the same or worse in NK. Lets send andy over there and maybe his kids and family since hes so ready to put other peoples families in a war. Not our problem, not our war, focus on the homeland then maybe get invovles in the world but right now is not a good time (if there is a good time) to start another meaningless war.

The article states

North Korea fired scores of artillery shells at a South Korean island on Tuesday, killing two soldiers, in one of the heaviest attacks on its neighbor since the Korean War ended in 1953.

The writers of this article obviously hasnt done their homework and has NO clue that the Korean War never, ever ended. It is merely in a stalemate w/an armistice ceasing fire between the 2 warring sides.

The war with North Korea NEVER ended ... no peace treaty was ever signed. There is only a cease fire between North and South Korea with the armistice that was signed in 1953 ... and we, the USA, are still South Korea's Ally and China is still North Korea's Ally. China MUST step in and STOP North Korea unless it wishes to resume hostilities with the US and other South Korean Allies who are now its consumers.

North Korea is rattling its sabre in a desparate attempt for money from the US. It has consistently been attempting to "discuss" issues on a sidebar with us while refusing to discuss the issues with all members involved in the discussions. North Korea grew accustomed to all the economic handouts and trade with the USA and wants more. We, Americans, have given that to the North Koreans despite the fact they make Hilter look like the tooth fairy in comparison to their human rights attrocities. Look up "camp 22" and see for yourselves of what I speak.

We have technically been continually at war with North Korea (and as a by-product, China) as South Korea's ally since 1950 and have merely a cease-fire which North Korea has not broken many times over the years, now they are becoming blatant about breaking that cease-fire.

Amen re Kennedy & Johnson escalating the Vietnam war, especially Johnson. Just a bit of history.

Notice something very important here. What is the reason we will not really be involved in a conflict with NK or why China will try to calm the situation? They have a nuke and a fight would be extremely messy.

That very reason is why Iran wants one as well. Iran talks about destruction of Israel and other countries are considering military strikes against their reactors. NK actually attacks someone and no one is likely to retaliate.

What part of, the United States is in serious, serious, trouble!

Horrible economy, inept leaders, and a uneducated "programmed/brainwashed" society!

Ruh, Roh! How long before the WORLD snubs their noses at us, oh, they already have!

I know that would never happen again, dhola. no @!$%#. what i think we should do and what we will do are two completely different things. my opinion is that we need utilize the air forces kick ass from a distance ability then use the marines to storm in after wards, then send in the army to clean it up. my opinion, which doesn't matter, is just my opinion. I don't have kids by the way and i don't want any either. I enjoy earning and spending my money on myself. That makes me happy. having kids would take away from that.

EVERYONE!!! Why would the South have war games 7 miles (and within sight) of their enemy? What if the Japanese had carried out maritime war exercises 7 miles off San Diego in 1941? What would we have done? What would we have done if the Russians did the same about the time of the Cuban Missle Crisis? What would we have done...???

You can't say this is all the fault of the North K's. You back me in a corner and watch my response... Clear provocation by the South!

By the way - I am a supporter of the South and understand the consequences of this American interest in the region. I also smell a rat...

as I and most others know about counter artillery fire I wonder why and of the Norths guns were not targeted and all crews killed it isn't that hard with good radar controlled guns to do this

So any of the morons on the right wishing we hadn't spent the last the last 8 years stretching our Military to the point of collapse.

I bet adding a couple 100,000 new recruits through the Dream Act is looking ok right now!

Chances are China is going to try and stay out of this. Economically they have everything to lose with a major conflict. I cannot imagine they would want to stall their forward progress toward global ECONOMIC dominance.

The Leadership in North Korea on the other hand does not seem so forward thinking.

. I don't see how the statement "Republicans have 'set up' wars" holds any water at all.

I should have said the "prelude to war" generally comes under Republican administrations -- mea culpa. However, in my past several posts, my vocabulary has apparently gone over the heads of the people attempting to respond to them. I tried to "dumb it down". So, you have a bit of a point.l

The North's nuclear centrifuges need to be on the short list of targets when the real conflict starts. Notice that I said "when" and not "if", because North Korea will not let things drift along for long with an occasional artillery strike like this one. They are building a propaganda portfolio to justify their eventual attempted invasion of South Korea. Invasion routes to South Korean need to be covered by South Korean artillery, MLRS and cruise missile targeting along with ground attack UAVs and manned aircraft. The president needs to activate the selective service draft system to bring more troops into the military. the time to start training is now.

Ruh, Roh! How long before the WORLD snubs their noses at us, oh, they already have!

I wish the rest of the world would snub their noses at us and return all the money we've given them.

Well if you want a war with China this is the way to get it - last time we traded shots with china it was because we got too close to the Chinese border - the result was the retreat at chosin <sp?> which resulted in our troops forced back to the southernmost tip of Korea. I forget what movie I heard it in but never get involved in a land war in Asia. How far would such a conflict go? Would Japan be involved directly or would memory of Japanese Atrocities in Korea keep them out? What we are looking at is a potentially intractable war with Nuclear armed players - Can we use China to settle little Kim down? Too many questions to easily answer in a single post. N. Korea is definitely instigating a conflict and if it happens our troops are there on the ground and prepared to defend the South if need be. Let's hope it doesn't happen.

Concerned one, you asked

concernedone

EVERYONE!!! Why would the South have war games 7 miles (and within sight) of their enemy?

Because they ARE STILL AT WAR. The war NEVER ended. Those war games are, and have been since 1953. It is an annual occurance since 1953, we just noticed it this year because the news decided to cover it. It happened EVERY YEAR and the North does the same. Now an armistice is MERELY a cease fire ... good until firing resumes. North Korea has broken that cease fire numerous times over the past DECADE. Now the are blatantly attacking a South Korean island with bombs.

North Korea has been insisting for years that the cease-fire is OVER, just the world refuses to acknowledge it. It is hard to have a war is you are the only one shooting. So now they down a S Korean sub ... the world merelty said "shame on you ... you now have a time out". Ok, tantrum continues .... they sabre rattle during normal, annual "war excersizes" and low and behold, the media gives them attention "look at this poor child in time out, poor little child".

I wish the media would place their attention on the severe, unspeakable human attrocities the North Korean regime perpertrates upon its people - they would have years of news and not much room left over for other news. N Korea's leaders' philosophy is if you have one dissendent, kill him/her publicly and then erradicate 3 generations of his/her family to "erradicate the protest gene" in forced labor camps that make Hitler's concentration camps look like vacation resorts.

Those "war games" were and are to remind North Korea that 1) S Korea is ready to resume battles if N Korea pushes it and 2) America was and is, by accords back in the 50s, S Korea's ally and will be by S Korea's side should they need us.

Kim Il, like his father before him who "trained and manicured" him and as he has done with his 3rd born son (obviously he skipped his 1st two sons - they probably dont have his pathological tendencies).

Kim Il wants war ... he wants a new armistice that is more financially lucrative than the one he has .... he has become accustomed to royalty like wealth and treatment while most of N Korea starves to death. He wants more European liquors, weasern cowboy movies and cartoons and exotic hookers from around the world. He isnt getting them right now ... and he is throwing a TANTRUM. This time, though, he is throwing a tantrum with nuclear weapon capabilities.

Now all that needs to be done is level Pongyang. That is their capital and everything else is 3rd world; agriculture, labor camps and factories filled with starving human beings afraid to even sneeze, should it offend the government.

And to think all this is done by a bunch of primates who left Africa 70,000 years ago. I'm reminded of the lyrics from a TOOL song:

Silly monkeys give them thumbs.
They make a club.
And beat their brother, down.

War is just one of the many things that makes me feel so disappointed in our species. But it is the one thing that really defines us.

Re Vietnam:

In 1944, an OSS mission parachuted into the country and made contact with the leaders of the largest Resistance movement in the country - Ho Chi Minh. In return for carrying out attacks on the Japanese, Ho was promised American support for independence after the war. That support was, in fact, initially extended, but when France decided to reconquer the country, American aid was not delivered. At that time, the U.S. was in a delicate position regarding France - helping to prevent a Communist takeover of the government. Thus the U.S. took a hands-off attitude until the French defeat at Dien Bien Phu in 1954, and the Geneva talks were convened in a rampant Cold War atmosphere which in fact is the point at which the U.S. became committed to the start of the Vietnam War.

Here's the summary of the postwar evolution, from The Second World War, p. 814, by Henri Michel, President of the International Historical Committee for the Second World War, Praeger Publishers, New York 1975 (note the text preserves the spelling and punctuation style of the British translator):

In French Indochina, The Japanese had encouraged anti-French nationalist movements such as the Cao Daist sect; even before the war, they were subsdising the 'League for the Independence of Annam'; they had achieved less success with the 'League of Revolutionary Organisations of Vietnam', inspired by the Communists and anti-Japanese as well as anti-French.

On March 9, 1945, in a sudden coup, the French troops were disarmed (NOTE: they had remained in country under sufferance of the Japanese) colonial administration abolished and thousands of nationalists released from prison. The preparations being made by the Indochinese Resistance movement in conjunction with the Free French bases in Calcutta and Yunnan were nipped in the bud. (NOTE: Preparations were plans to mount an uprising in conjunction with a Free French invasion, separate from those of the other Resistance groups in the country.)

The most active nationalist movement, with the widest network of cells, the Vietminh under Ho Chi Minh, extended its hold over the country. When the Japanese collapsed, the Americans, because of their anti-colonialism, did not call on the French but let the conquered Japanese maintain law and order and their Chinese allies (NOTE: Chiang Kai-Sheck's Kuomintang), with their agreement, occupied the north of the country; the British were to occupy the south. The Vietminh formed a provisional government, with the emperor Bao Dai as advisor, after his abdication, and seized weapons from the Japanese armouries. Ho Chi Minh informed France, through Jean Sainteny, the head of the French mission in Yunnan,of the Vietminh's programme: election of a parliament by universal suffrage; independence within five to ten years; while France would be granted 'economic concessions'. So the matter was open to discussion; but in Paris, as a result of the failure to make a proper assessment of the strength of the movement for independence, preparations were underway to reconquer the country.

Michael Anderson-1130906 - What did President Bush do about North Korea? Answer: Nothing.

2005 President Bush Stopped the North Korean Nuclear Materials Refining Program.

Michael Anderson-1130906 - What did President Bush do about Iran? Answer: Nothing.

Iran was stuck between American Controlled Iraq, and here (Afghanistan) and US Allies to the North. until President Obama pantied out.

I guess that even President Bush knew that we can't declare war on the entire world just to fight other peoples battles.

The only person that Declared War was President Clinton. Per International Laws (Rules), United Nations, 1907 Hague Convention, 1949 Geneva Convention, etc. "Stating, Funding, Organizing the Overthrow of another Soverign Nation's Government is a Declaration of War or an Act of War."

This is what President Clinton did in his 1998 State of the Union Address demanding H.R.4655 (Approval from US Congress, to "Overthrow the Iraqis Government", to conform to the 1973 War Powers Resolution).

President Clinton's used the first time used term Weapons of Mass Destruction as Justification. Irregardless of the fact that these Weapons of Mass Destruction (Chemical) were used during the Iran Iraq Wars against the Kurdistanis (armed men, women, children, Asymmetric Warfare, like the current Kurdistanis PKK and HPG), with the Kurdistanis being the ARMED Allies of USSR Backed Fundamentalist Islamic Iran. This occurred almost a decade before President Clinton demanded H.R.4655. And the use of Chemical Weapons ended the Iran Iraq Wars.

After, 1998, H.R.4655 was passed, President Clinton as Commander In Chief chose the option to hire thousands of assassins and insurgents to overthrow the Iraqis President and Iraqis Government. This failed after they were caught and traced back to the US, then executed. President Clinton spun this to "Dictator Killing His Own People", this was the first time that President Saddam Hussein was referred to as a Dictator, while News Media showing "Iraqis" women crying next to mass graves of the assassins and insurgents.

After President Clinton's failure by Funding the thousands of assassins and insurgent to Overthrow the Iraqis President and the Iraqis (Parlimentary Democratic) Government, as Commander In Chief he chose the option of 1998, Operation Desert Fox. Resulting in the Bombing and Cruise Missile Attacks of the Urban Poor Areas of Baghdad with aircraft from Zweibruken AFB, Ramstein AFB, etc. with US Special Warfare from Germany not allowed to target and only do Target Damage Assessments. The killing of the poor at Baghdad created an Islamic International Hatred of the US throughout the Islamic World as the Imams at the worldwide Mosques spread the word of the attacks worldwide.

After President Clinton's second failure. He considered the US Military and US Intelligence as worthless, and conducted his Cut to the Bone Reduction In Forces of the US Military, that created a niche for the expensive US Contractors; and gutted the US Intelligence Agencies especially his own Executive Branch Intelligence Agency, the CIA. Many in the CIA claim it was to piss off his predecessor, as the former director of the CIA, President Bush (41). These Cuts resulted in the US Military being non mission capable, and the crippling of US Intelligence which now had to rely on potentially hostile non verifiable non credable intelligence, this led to "Intelligence Blackouts" of entire Regions, especially the "Middle East" (Congressional 9/11 Commission, US Intelligence Agencies, US Department of Defense).

It took years for the US Military to build back up to become Mission capable. Prior to 9/11 2001, US Congress amended President Clinton's 1998 H.R.4655 to the US Military Invasion of Iraq to: "Overthrow the Iraqis President and Iraqis (Parliamentary Democratic) Government to Liberate the Iraqis People" aka Operation Iraqis Freedom. This becoming the Declaraton of War, conforming to the 1973 War Powers Resolution. With like it or not President Bush (43) must obey the Laws as Congressionally Funded and Approved. After this Law was amended by US Congress, I gave my men and women the Warning Order to prepare for War; as we would have one year to gain the trust, then organize and train the Kurdistanis to fight the Iraqis to: create a Strategic Feint (force the Iraqis to deploy to the North of Baghdad, thinking the US Attack would come thru Turkey, and not from the south), and the Kurdistanis would seize and secure the Northern Iraqis Oil Fields.

Michael Anderson-1130906 - My son is a carreer Soldier. He has fought in Iraq twice and was wounded, and he has also been in South Korea three seperate times. Enough already.

A few years in the US Military does not make one a Career Soldier. You try being involved in this "Middle East" mess as a US Military Officer since the 1980s, US Military Training Teams from Germany to Iraq during the Iran Iraq Wars, and rotated to the US Military Training Teams from Germany (as an asset to the Agency) to Pakistan (to train the 1980s Pro Western Afghan Muhajeen, NOT the 1990s Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban). Followed by years of consecutive tours at Iraq (previously) and currently years of consecutive tours here (Afghanistan); with breaks only for training or deployment to other places (Somalia, Darfur, South and Central Americas, etc.). That is way more than enough, as my men and women (and myself) would rather be at home getting drunk and laid (both illegal in these Islamic Nations).

Michael Anderson-1130906 - Signed: A former Marine during Vietnam. Semper Fi. Just sick of this garbage.

The Senior USMC NCO of my Command as my CSM, says, "Once a Marine always a Marine, either you are a Marine or you never were" (I left off all his derrgotory expletives). He also was pulled back on Active Duty from Retirement, previously he was Force Recon. You can imagine how he really feels (but will not let on, like the rest of us.). Especially, since the Politicians do not listen to anything we tell them about the mistakes they are making (based on experience on the ground), the USMC at Marjah did not listen to us either, so he was chewing them out while we were "observing", then I had a terse conversation with their Officers, with the result of both of us being escorted out of their area of operations, and later getting letters of reprimand to add to the stacks we already have (we were previously ordered "Hands Off"). You do not send first time Combat, no Combat experience here, as to why Marjah is still a Cluster F**k; you send their arses to Iraq (lower intensity, less risk of lives) first to get some experience.

Note: In Asymmetric Warfare, seizing and holding ground is irrelevant (like the USSR with more forces than the US currently has, found out here.). This is why most of us agree Marjah was a dog and pony show, for Admiral Mullen to justify the USMC piece of the Defense Budget (after the April 2009 Defense Budget Cuts). When (not if) the USMC Forces at Marjah get stuck in place, just like the US Military Forces on COBs/FOBs, they become sitting ducks, and fish in a barrel to be massacred in place by the Taliban, Pakistanis Taliban, Al Quada, Hamas Foreign Fighters, Chechen Foreign Fighters, Kurdistanis elements, Libyans, Egyptian Foreign Fighters, Syrians, Fighters sent from the Former USSR Republics (Tajikistan, Uzebekistan, Abkhazia, etc.), etc.. This is why while conducting US Military Asymmetric Mountain Warfare we move at random at least once a week. Majority of this Country is mountains of the same mountain chain as Mount Everest, the Pamir, "Roof of the World". Less than 3% of the entire US Military is trained in Asymmetric Warfare and a fraction of that is trained to conduct Mountain Warfare. In order to operate and survive 24/7/365 they must also be trained in Arctic/Winter Warfare as last winter we had two avalaches. All of this training and experience takes decades and requires language especially so add another few years. Most of the current US Military do not have the personal commitment to also endure years of consecutive tours, to gain the trust of the local population (as how long would it take for you to trust someone that you did not know with your, your families lives). You have to gain their trust before they will even listen to you.

Back on topic, Korea, Vietnam (US to hold French Indochina for French after Japanese WWII Surrender), Darfur, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, South Ossetia, all examples of United Nations FAILURES. While the other Permanent Members of the UN Security Council, the Chinese and Russian Federation, sit back laughing at the US. As to why the US needs to get out of the UN, especially since the UN uses the US Military as the UN Military (as equal voice in the UN means equal UN commitments, which currently does not happen).

By the way during high school (early birthdate) I received a Selective Service Card, and became Field Artillery and then was voluntold (told I volunteered) into LRRP/Ranger. You can guess how old I am (maintaining nearly a age 18 year old body except for the white hairs), and still concerned with the raise of retirement age of Social Security with the implication of a change to the age that you can no longer be recalled to active duty from retirement. The oldest being on active duty (recalled from retirement) is currently age 65.

"Once a Marine always a Marine, either you are a Marine or you never were"

Unless you get a DD or BCD then you're considered nothing above pond scum.

david-475776 - You mean "Regardless"

"Irregardless of the fact that these Weapons of Mass Destruction..."

irregardless: an erroneous word that, etymologically, means the exact opposite of what it is used to express

Andy-1553277 - Unless you get a DD or BCD then you're considered nothing above pond scum.

I will tell you something about an NCO that I knew. During Vietnam he was a First Sergeant of a Fire Base. The Commander of this Fire Base knew what he was doing. His Executive Officer was a chicken sh!t and never came out of the bunker (I think he even sh!t and pissed into a bucket in there). The Captain rotated out of country, making the Executive Officer the Commander of the Fire Base. After I rotated out of country, the First Sergeant punched out the id!ot, nearly killing him, he was charged with attempted murder. He was busted down to "Prisoner" at Fort Leavenworth Displinary Barracks. Years, later after College and becoming an Officer and while attending Command and General Staff College (they give you a tour of the Disciplinary Barraks so you can see where you are sending former US Military to), I just happened to see him locked in his cell. The next day I arranged a visit and had a long talk with "Prisoner" (name) and found out from him what happened (the Commander he punched out threaten to shoot him for disobeying a really stupid order that would have gotten many killed unnecessarily, as booksmart but not reality, I confirmed with others that I knew (something the investigators did not bother to do)). Few years later, I requested him by name as a condition for my assuming Command of (none of anyone's business). Due to the nature of this Command, this was granted without hesitation. Upon his arrival, the clerks had this strange looks on their faces as he had his full chest of fruit salad (medals) and qualification badges and this unworn big spot showing where his First Sergeant Rank was on his sleeves (he was wearing E-1 rank when he "signed in"). Within my jurisdiction I immediately promoted him to E-4 and told him to get his rank put on by the next day (which he did) and pack his sh!t for deployment. Then we deployed (also none of anyone's business), during the deployment, I boarded him and promoted him to E-6, also within my jursidiction. By the time my Command was disbanned, he was an E-7 based on merit Bronze Star for Valor (selected by Branch). Many years later I met him just before he retired as a CSM (Command Sergeant Major) and attended his Retirement Ceremony, just before I became a Commander of something else (also not anyone's business) and deployed.

The title "Prisoner" is even below "pond scum", or a Dishonorable Discharge or Bad Conduct Discharge.

cmanz -david-475776 - You mean "Regardless" "Irregardless of the fact that these Weapons of Mass Destruction..." irregardless: an erroneous word that, etymologically, means the exact opposite of what it is used to express

How about I just state, "Contrary to the fact that these Weapons of Mass Destruction (Chemical) were used during the Iran Iraq Wars against; the enemies of the United States and it's Ally, Iraq; the Kurdistanis (armed men, women, children, Asymmetric Warfare, like the current Kurdistanis PKK and HPG), with the Kurdistanis being the ARMED Allies of USSR Backed Fundamentalist Islamic Iran.

There will be no war. You would need another Bush or Reagan in office for something like that to occur nowadays.

why are you including Reagan? the only "wars" he was involved in were Grenada and Panama, hardly even worthwhile as military exercises. (no disrespect intended for those that were involved there)

buffalo bob-937857 wrote:

my thought here is why so much intensity over a treaty with russia when it is korea, iran, or pakistan who will start a nuclear war. none have any concern for human life and feel all powerful.

That's a lot of propaganda you're buying into. There are intelligent people in those countries who know that nuclear war with another country will mean mutual destruction. The reason we made it through the Cold War is because both sides knew the same thing, but the tough talk made it sound like they didn't. Same thing is going on today.

That's what she said.

david-475776

That wouldn't fly today. In the Marines there are no second chances. Even if you turn yourself around. I'm reminded of this guy who came back from the war in Iraq as an alcoholic. He got into some trouble over there, but upon his return he turned his life around and became a motivating Marine who really wanted to prove that he could be a great Marine. This guy volunteered for every sh!t detail and passed every inspection thrown at him with flying colors. Well two years after he returned he was sent to a General Court Martial for something he did while deployed. I found out later that he was sent to the Brig and then given a DD. When we found out what it was all about everybody in our unit was speechless. We all thought this guy was a lifer. No one talked to him when he got out and I have no clue where he is at now. I got out and decided to go to college. I'm so glad I have all my benefits to fall back on. This guy got kicked out with nothing. Lesson here is to never mess up. Marines want perfect men. There are no second chances. That CSM you're referring to is pretty lucky. That is some old school stuff you pulled for him, but like I said that wouldn't fly in today's military.

dr cat, has N korea ever actually shown any concern for the lives of it's citizens? much less the lives of any other nations citizens? the NK leadership has all the worst attributes of the most oppressive and ruthless kings/emperors in history combined with the worst of 20th century brainwashing/media control. a nation that will willingly starve it's citizens while effectively convincing said citizens that it is far worse elsewhere and all to maintain control over them while entertaining dreams of conquest of their neighbor to the south in order to further glorify their "dear leader".

BTW, I don't buy BB's line regarding the other countries on his list, only NK. even Iran, despite being openly hostile to us, started out as a kind of "theocratic democracy", but having a religious leadership with absolute final control, along with the ever-increasing power of the revolutionary guard is turning that country into nothing but militaristic theocracy.

andy, which wouldn't fly? the idiot XO that was a coward ? or the sergeant that punched him out? striking an officer is illegal, but so is cowardice in the face of the enemy

Getting all his rank back and retiring, danwill. That doesn't occur today. I've never heard of that happening in today's military. That's what I mean.

thanks for clearing that up andy.

it kind of makes one wonder though, is todays version of the Marines really an improvement?

Its just a game trailer but I can easily see most of thise happening, except for the US invasion..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4x_-KVooUKQ&playnext=1&list=PL51C1DFF536F036A7&index=23

I don't know about all that. I don't think S. Koreans would willingly submit to the north. I also think that Japan would fight to the last man and we would be the first country to use an EMP burst. I didn't see any screenshots of actual gameplay but from the story line it appears that it might be a decent game. I'll have to look on x-box live for a demo. Thanks for the link

we can'tr use an EMP, obama signed a pack that pretty much neutered us, we can't fire off a HANE now if we wanted to.

What pact did he sign Bushwacker?The non EMP pact?

Who is the "We?" Not the United States of America.

We did our best, at great cost, during the Korean war, aka "conflict." 30,000 dead, 110,000 wounded, 10,000 captured or MIA, all assumed dead.

Since then we have dropped billions and stationed hundreds of thousands of our troops, to protect them. Now they would like some of our nukes, say please....

The Commander-In-Chief was there two weeks ago to sign a trade agreement. These agreements are done way in advance by what are called "advance-men" Ha... When Obama arrived they spit in his eye, no deal buddy boy, have dinner on us and go home.

To keep America safe we can move our planes and ships to another island. We have many territories in that area, there is Japan as well.

NATO? What are they thinking. Here is the deal; have the French finally make a stand. During the "Second" they walked both sides of the street, and they still do. Some hero was Chuck de Gaulle. Name an airport after him and be done.

For once let the French do the deed. Once they have finished bombing the nuclear facilities in Iran; they do have super jets and good pilots, they can do another fly over and blow the nuclear plants in North Korea.

We have our hands full at the moment. We have brave men dying nearly every day, or having body parts blown to smithereens. S. Korea does not want to work with us unless they benefit. Hamid Karzai, once a member of the Taliban is a crook along with the rest of family and cronies, and we are allowing him to call the shots. This is a load of B.S. When the greatest nation in the world becomes lap-dogs, at the great cost of loss of life and sorrow for so many American families. There will be a vacant chair at the Thanksgiving table for too many.

No worries-Sarah Palin can see N. Korea from her bathroom window!!

since when are we the "best" country in the world, id say bottom 4th quarter

You can bet your a$$ the US government will become covertly involved in anything that happens over there. And wait until you see the impact this mess is going to have on the American people. They'll be sure to use another war on foreign soil to somehow screw us in the end.

what part of washington do you live in?

As an informed observer, I am not surprised at the exchange. As was already mentioned, the Korean War never officially ended with a peace treaty in place.

Regarding China: How could it possibly benefit China to have a nuclear exchange in it's backyard? Not. Poisoned population and economic ruin just isn't going to happen. Chinese are a rational lot, generally.

Regarding future: There will forever be exchanges and flare-ups between the Koreans. A generally quiet group, they can be easily swayed to move on emotion, rather than logic. It is in their natures. And that is not intended as a judgement. Just an obvious fact of history.

I believe that any person that has lived in Asia for a period of time would agree.

Oh. One more thing: Don't bother waking up Barrack. He is impotent, and hasn't the gray matter to do anything anyway. He is a joke to Asians. Let him sleep. We would all be better off.

You don't have to live in Washington to have studied the history of this country, the government and the elite. It's all out there for anyone that wants to become acquainted with how it really is and what really goes on that they hope we never find out about. This country is going downhill fast; in the end, it all ties together. I refuse to be blindly led around by those who deceive us on a regular basis, and just accept everything I'm told. It's better to throw ideas out there for people to really think about, rather than just sit and wonder what happened later.

Typical reactions by the spineless. North Korea sinks a South Korean naval ship and there's a bunch of screeching from South Korea but nothing much else. Oh yeah, meaningless condemnation from the Obama white house. The North Koreans say to themselves, we did this with no retaliation so let's see much farther we can go.

They shell the island killing people and the only result is s bunch more screeching from the South Koreans promising they'll do something if it happens again. The conclusion of the North Koreans is, they did this and suffered no retaliation and all they got from Obama was the usual empty condemnation rhetoric.

The one thing that is certain is that the North Koreans will continue these aggressions as long as they meet with no resistance. The North Koreans consider Obama to be weak as do the South Koreans who are worried they will be abandoned by Obama should hostilities between the Koreas escalate.

To keep America safe we can move our planes and ships to another island.

To keep America safe, we ought to bring all our overseas troops home and stop wasting trillions on keeping these bases open.

Do you want to march on Beijing as well? The problem with force used against N. Korea is the response of the Chinese who committed troops to the last war (over a million in a single push that nearly drove us off of the peninsula. With little Bush's two current wars short of bringing in the draft I have my doubts that we have enough troops to accomplish this. A few years ago I really thought that whoever Succeeded L'il Kim in the North would move to reunite the north and south without war but rather reconciliation. So, what would you suggest? The Koreans have been lobbing shells at each other for about a half century or so so what could be done to make them stop?

Relax, folks; nothing's going to happen!! The South Korean culture is anti-confrontational, and there will be no more further confrontation here. Submit, kowtow, and assuage is the mantra; in their culture this is done to "save face" and prevent further embarrassment or awkwardness. Look what has happened already; they lost a naval destroyer to a hull-penetrating anti-ship torpedo that the N. Koreans launched from a submarine with more or less a bottom-up kill shot (probably some newer technology)... what did the S. Korean president do in retaliation to Kim Jong Il? The big goose egg - nada, nothing, zip.

I was listening to a report on NPR this AM that said the public response has been much the same - everyone in S. Korea is just going about their own business, not even staying glued to the TVs or really even following the story. This is nothing akin to what happened to the U.S. during Pearl Harbor or 9/11 - the S. Koreans don't really care because their leaders will just apologize to Kim Jong Il for their discretions and everything will be peachy keen. They think, "conciliate, kowtow, and be done with it."

One might argue that the S. Koreans made some kind of retaliatory strike already against the N. Korean artillery barrage, but from what I've heard, this was really nothing. There is great fear of the "Dear Leader" in the South, and they do not want to upset him and they do not want direct, open confrontation, much in the same manner that open verbal confrontation is not socially acceptable in the streets, markets, business offices, etc. of Seoul. The South Korean president will make a little peep with a veiled and ambiguous verbal threat against N. Korea, and perhaps has launched a fighter plane or two to go along with his half-assed "retaliatory" artillery barrage, but that will be the extent of it.

All of the worry-warts, war-mongers, and "end days" nuts - relax and take a deep breath, your day has not come yet. Not until Kim Jong Il (or should I say "Ill") decides to send troops across the border will the S. Koreans do anything more than a pinprick in retaliation. Look instead for: lots of kowtowing, reconciliation, diplomacy, placation, assuaging of "Dear Leader".

As I recall there would be no North Korea if MacArthur would have been allowed to run his own war. Some people's history leaves out bags of facts. Give the south support and to hell with what China thinks. What will they do? Send All of their cheap products and led laden toys somewhere else? Oh, that's right. They will call in the loans they've made to Oba-a-a-a-ma.

We had the N Koreans backed up into China in the early 50's and the idiots in Washington DC wouldn't let the military finish it, just like Viet Nam, Far East etc.All of the stupidity in DC is always coming back to haunt us. Moral of the story, DO NOT LET WASHINGTON FIGHT WARS, IF YOU SEND TROOPS SOMEWHERE, TURN THEM LOOSE AND LET THEM DO THIER JOB. Give the enemy what they can understand, TOTAL DESTRUCTION! Until the populace in a war zone fear us more than the locals, WE CAN NOT WIN ANYTHING!

Let's do them all, we have the nukes... get it done.

P.S. I forgot to add to my post above that fear is a real issue; also I wanted to correct "discretions" to "indiscretions". Being that their capital city and highest-density civilian population center (Seoul) is located within such a short distance of the DMZ border with N. Korea, nothing short of an armored land invasion across the border or direct artillery/missile attack on Seoul itself will elicit a military action by the S. Koreans... by that time, the U.S. will be forced to get involved because we have so many troops and assets stationed there.

rlkwilldo - With little Bush's two current wars short of bringing in the draft I have my doubts that we have enough troops to accomplish this.

More uninformed baloney Bush Bashing. As both Iraq and here (Afghanistan) are currently UN Missions (Nation Building/Rebuilding) (more UN Failures, as to why NATO wants to get the F**K out).

As far as the Selective Service as promised by Candidate Obama during the Presidential Debates about the "Unpopular" Wars. Candidate Obama promised to reinstate the Selective Service to have adequate people to fill the US Military. As Candidate Obama stated, "US Citizenship is not an entitlement" and some other stuff about "Civic Duty". And with the April 2009 President Obama Defense Budget Cuts of the cush jobs of the USAF and USN, that would mean "Drafted" into the US Military Ground Combat Forces of the US Army and USMC.

MrCool Hamid Karzai, once a member of the Taliban is a crook along with the rest of family and cronies, and we are allowing him to call the shots.

I already told you how uninformed that is. As he does not manage the Billions of USDs of US Aid. President Obama's Political Appointees Eikenberry and Holbrooke do. They are also the one's that claimed President Karzai is corrupt to the International News Media while they were redirecting Billions of USDs of Aid, this was while General McChrystal was investigating them (one of the real reasons he was fired as recommended by Eikenberry and Holbrooke as President Obama's Friends (you do not get Political Appointments based on skill/qualifications, as the saying goes as "not what you know but who you blow")).

Karzai did not flee to Fundamentalist Islamic Iran (USSR Backed) during the USSR 40th Army Invasion. And did not later return 1990s to Afghanistan as a Fundamentalist Islamic Taliban and massacre the 1980s Pro Western Afghan Muhajeen trained by the US Military Training Teams from Germany as an asset to the Agency at Pakistan.

I have never experienced an artillery strike but I have felt the power of an mortar attack. There is not a place to go or hole deep enough to avoid the one with your name on it.

Kind of when Bush said "nice job Brownie"?

Fianchetto, do you think that if Mexico requests from USA to not patrol too close to the border or do no military exercises we will abide by their request? I don't think so! Same thing with SK under fears that if doing what the North demands they will lose face and their liberties as a separate nation.

What else is new. I've seen them here before.

Why not the Islamic Believers do, as counted as part of their Mandatory Islamic Tithes (posting Taqiya (lies), to advance Islam, like "Islam the Religion of Peace", or "majority of Islam Is Peaceful" (while their mandatory Islamic Tithes fund the Islamic Law Enforcement Worldwide (aka Death Squads) and Islamic Military (aka Jihadist, Terrorists)). While not denouncing the 109 verses of the 114 verses of the Holy Koran (Quran) as used by Modern Islam that Calls ALL Islamic Believers to War Against the Christians, Jews, "Unbelievers" and the Death Penalty for Islamic Believers that do not participate as enforced by the Islamic Laws, the Hadith Laws, Fiqh Laws, Sharia Laws, etc..

So why shouldn't the North Koreans do the same.

People have died, you might want to consider actually posting something of substance.

Yes ntheorist

Show some respect. That's Kim Jong Mentally Ill.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't know much about the Korean situation, but I'm scared this could become WW3. If it does, then these are my thoughts:

I hope that nobody will try nukes out, especially Kim Jong and his lack of moral guidelines. Its too easy when you are going to lose, and it is nothing but death incarnate. Fallout may be a great game, but I don't want to recreate it 100s of years early.

As for China, I honestly have no idea what they are going to do. Are they going to side with the North like in the past, or decide that they've gone too far and join the South.

I also wonder what Russia is planning to do. I haven't heard much about them after they hit Jordan. They are a wild card to me.

I would greatly appreciate any useful information about the situation.

Fallout may be a great game, but I don't want to recreate it 100s of years early.

reserve your shelter spot today!

China has the goose stepping Kim Jong thralls in North Korea, America has the goose stepping Zionist thralls in Israel. The world is in balance, nothing to worry!

There is an odd balance there.

Don't forget the Islamic countries have their own little rabid chihuahua. Iran likes to run to the end of it chain and bark too.

Lynn. Don't forget Israel, who is Americas version of Chinas North Korea.

I say why not just invade NK, Iran, Pakistan, Syria and Yemen and get it over with. Teach them peace and democracy with an iron fist.

i bet you are an ignorant tea party supporter that thinks we should just keep fighting unending wars cut the taxes for the rich and forget about everyone else. you my friend are part of the problem Not the solution.

Let's do Mexico while we're at it - we know where all the cartel lives.

Trevor-1973.....you are watching too many cartoons, your brain has rotted ! The U.S. is not in a position to invade anybody ! Our military is worn out from the two disaster wars we have been fighting for 9 years, our equipment is worn out, we are not doing any invading of anybody. The days when our military could control the world are over, at least for a while, maybe forever.

North Korea is doing less than what Bush/Cheney did to Iraq so why should we be so angry. We are such a hypocritical country and people. Just as the Repubics have been for certain issue during the Bush dictatorship but since Obama got elected, they flipped on those same issues. I'm glad Bush is not in power because he has total disregard for American lives. For those who are idiots and promote war against NK and other countries are the cowards who will hide or go to Canada to avoid being drafted if this developed into something more serious.

This is proof positive that little men can make big mistakes. Now it is time the real men to make big decisions to correct them!

Smith and Trevor, not sure where you learned what "analogies" mean, but comparing Israel to NKorea is a pretty big stretch. If anything, Israel is like South Korea in this instance...both backed by the US, both stepping over borders not recognized by their enemy (Israel-settlements and SKorea-drilling), both violently attacked by the enemy in civilian installations due to diplomatic border disputes (Israel-rockets and SKorea-mortar shells). Not saying that Israel or SKorea are blame-free, only that NKorea and Hamas/Hezbollah/Iranian gov'ts make a better comparison as they are run by war-crazy psychopaths.

we need to stop being the worlds police! South Korea just screwed us on trade restrictions. Let them bomp the north with their worthless products.

This a job for Bistro Barry Obama and the wackadoo Black Panthers - reposition the BP's from polling guard and surround the UN - just their presence should terrify the members ... if nothing else maybe a break dance session -

So many uninformed posts. especially regarding Iraq. See posts# 2.44, 3.20.

As far as doing something about North Korean, President Bush from a position of power, stopped in 2005 the North Korean Nuclear Materials Enhancement Programs.

Which President Obama can do nothing about (bargining from a position of weakness), proven to North Korea by doing nothing about the sinking of the South Korean ship, the current restarting of the North Korean Nuclear Materials Enrichment Program, etc.).

mrussell24 - we need to stop being the worlds police!

That would mean the US getting out of the UN, aka UN Police Actions, UN Humanitarian Missions (that turned into armed conflicts and later Wars), UN Peacekeeping Missions, UN Nation Building/Rebuilding (Iraq and Afghanistan), etc.. Especially, like previously stated while the other Permanent Members of the UN Security Council, China and Russian Federation, sit back laughing at the US (as well as funding, supporting, etc. the US enemies.).

mike-2707737 - i bet you are an ignorant tea party supporter that thinks we should just keep fighting unending wars cut the taxes for the rich

Uninformed again. As who started the unending Wars. Iraq: Declared War by President Clinton. Afghanistan: Senator Charles Wilson Democrat Texas.

The Bush Tax Cuts were tax cuts for all US Taxpayers (Rich, Middle Class, Low Income) you want to be a real Demoncrap, while being a hypocrite about Demoncrap "Equality" then stop the Tax Cuts for the "Rich" while still having Tax Cuts for the Middle Class and Low Income, so much for Demoncrap "Equality". Laws must pertain to ALL US Citizens, not just the Rich, Middle Class, Low Income. That includes the majority of the Congress that are RICH Demoncraps (and the other Demoncrap that is "Mr. Corporate America" that had his people brief the US Supreme Court on Unlimited Corporate Campaign Contributions, and was later, 2010, fined $200,000 for violations of the McCain Feingold Bipartisan Campaign Reform Law (Act)). You really need to do some research.

Your descriptive of the Tea Party supporters fits like a shoe or glove on you.

Add as evidence to previous posts #2.44, President Clinton's 1998 State of the Union Address, demanding Congress pass H.R.4655, that became the Declaration of War With Iraq as Operation Iraqis Freedom. And first used the term Weapons of Mass Destruction. With WMDs being the justification for War.

Together we must also confront the new hazards of chemical and biological weapons, and the outlaw states, terrorists and organized criminals seeking to acquire them. Saddam Hussein has spent the better part of this decade, and much of his nation's wealth, not on providing for the Iraqi people, but on developing nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. The United Nations weapons inspectors have done a truly remarkable job, finding and destroying more of Iraq's arsenal than was destroyed during the entire gulf war. Now, Saddam Hussein wants to stop them from completing their mission. I know I speak for everyone in this chamber, Republicans and Democrats, when I say to Saddam Hussein, "You cannot defy the will of the world", and when I say to him, "You have used weapons of mass destruction before; we are determined to deny you the capacity to use them again. - President Clinton, 1998, State of the Union Address.

My God, does anyone understand the ramifications of a full-scale conflict in the Asian theater??

We Americans have been duped into believing war is a relatively simple process that rarely touches us all directly. We have been lead to believe that we can institute our military prowess anywhere, at any time, for any reason we can dream up.

The reality is that to provoke a war against the NPRK would quickly escalate into a massive regional war (if not WW3), pitting China and Russia against our interests.

To go to war against NK, CHina, or Russia is vastly different than the "adventures" we've had in the middle east. We would be directly confronting some of the world's largest professional armies, backed by technology that Iraq could only salivate about, all during a time when our economy cannot support any more military intervention.

The death and carnage would so great it would rival the days when Germany would send home the ashes of their fallen soldiers to the unsuspecting parents. We would witness our loved ones and neighbors facing the horror of losing our sons and daughters at rates we have not seen since WW2.

And there are simply no politics in the world that can sugarcoat the destruction that will prevail. Our American way of life will change drastically, one way or another.

Do not wish for war. Pray to God that our leaders have the insight and patience to avoid this conflagration.

You appear to belive it's avoidable ... appeasement always precedes catastrophic consequences ... it's as though it's a breeding environment for the pyscopath ...

"Our American way of life will change drastically, one way or another.." where the hell do you live ... have you been following the UN at all - changing the "American way of life" appears to be the first order of business - with special emphasis on Constitutional law ... hell forget the UN look instead at the Obama administration ...

Lynn. Don't forget Israel, who is Americas version of Chinas North Korea.

let's see, open, democratic country (Israel)with nasty neighbors, compared to brutal , closed dictatorship (NK). no comparison there, and only an idiot would make one

hey tigere, your stupid "black panther" comments only prove you are one of those idiots that hate the fact that a black man became president.

and in case you didn't notice, our American way of life already has changed dramatically. but if fools like you were in charge, we would still be riding horses and buggies

Dan - explain the difference between the BP and the KK ... ideologically - as to change well - :" You can starve an Obama supporter by putting his foodstamps under a pair of work boots ..." welfare - 6 generations deep, Pard ...

and think of the EOE jobs that would be generated - shoveling horse manure from city streets ... :o)

beyond the color of their skin, I don't think there is a difference between the BP and the KKK.

Kim Dong Nill, Kim Dong Suk somethin like that

FtheRight....That was a funny posting.....So much for the open exchange of ideas and opinions....unless they agree with you....Do you kiss your mommy with that potty-mouth ??

Somebody's getting a timeout. Where's Tyler?

Wait, the most substantial post you guys could think up was making fun of asian names?

Says the guy with the pen name "Toasty McGrath." LOL

who cares?

We know how this works, Sally ... and we did report it, almost 5 hours before you took action. You need to be quicker. FtheRight's comment should have been removed immediately and you should not have quoted it in your response.

Where is Tyler's heavy hand of justice? Seriously who cares what anybody posts. When you remove a comment that is called censorship,and when you report it that makes you a snitch. You should just leave it so the whole world can see what a dumb ass the person is.

I don't think so. These guys did the same thing pretty recently. It only seems worst now because of the recent publications on the Norths nuclear program. I don't think any one in the region wants a war to break out, especially China. China is sitting "high on the hog" right now, and I don't think they will let their idiot neighbors ruin it for them.

Idiot neighbors? North Korea always HAS and always WILL be a Puppet State for China. S. Korea manufacturing is the only legitimate competiton in the region for China. On top of that, the S. Koreans are the largest ship builders in the world, to be a true World Power a country needs a navy. Which China is actively trying to build. Nothing could improve China's dominance in the region any more than N. Korea sacking S. Korea.

good analysis john. Looks like this will be a good test of the responses obama/clinton will have to make as well as the UN to this attack.

obama/clinton - yeah, right - they both have TONS of experience in military strategy. That's like Mickey Mouse making military decisions.

John-1791517 Although S. Korea spits a vessel in 4 working days, they are commercial, its navy is not larger than the Chinese and China can sink and destroy S. Korea's navy and shipyards with its own navy, tactic missiles and bombers, so I don't think China sees S. Korea shipbuilding as a threat or even a challenge, besides China is not far behind in gross tonnage and will eventually take over, due to its huge appetite and much larger market.

Bill, I guess you have problems with our elected leader. Too bad. He's the best chance we got. Don't you think that he, like any president, has access to all the military AND political advisors?

North Korea pulls this crap when ever they come to the conclusion the western leaders (American) have no backbone. Next they'll get what they want in a series of negotiations, as the President (Through his Sec of State), will bargain from a position of weakness, and give away the store. North Korea will walk away from this with American aide dollar$ in their pockets, and their nuclear program intact. Mark my words.

Same thing happened with Carter/Vance, Clinton/Albrecht, and will be SOP with Obama/Clinton. This is what happens when our leader is perceived as the "Paper Tiger" that he is.

BIZBUB....... First off do the research, Sec. of State was Madeleine Albright, not Albrecht. Second read the article below from 2006 that was pulled from USA TODAY. (It is amazing what you can find on the internet.) Maybe you need to add BUSH/POWELL/RICE to your statement or do you have a selective memory problem...

WASHINGTON — President Bush announced Thursday that he will lift U.S. economic sanctions against North Korea — a charter member of the "axis of evil" — and remove it from the U.S. terrorism blacklist now that Pyongyang has met a key requirement of its promise to abandon its nuclear weapons program.

In order for any attack the US would have to warn them so that they can prepare for a US attack. US Congress would also have to approve to comply with the 1973 War Powers Resolution as they did with Iraq. As to why the Iraqis had years to prepare for the US Invasion (President Clinton's H.R.4655, 1998, amended by Congress pre 9/11 2001, becoming the Declaration of War with Iraq, and Congressional Funding, Approval and Authorization). Then the SOS (Sh!t On a Shingle aka chipped beef on toast) would go to the UN and seek approval (possibly including a vote by the UN Permanent Members of the Security Council (China and the Russian Federation).

The same would be for the preemptive use of Nuclear Weapons, aka First Strike, which is against the current US Policy of, US will not be the first to use Nuclear Weapons.

Laura -948686 - BIZBUB....... First off do the research, Sec. of State was Madeleine Albright, not Albrecht. Second read the article below from 2006 that was pulled from USA TODAY. (It is amazing what you can find on the internet.) Maybe you need to add BUSH/POWELL/RICE to your statement or do you have a selective memory problem...

WASHINGTON — President Bush announced Thursday that he will lift U.S. economic sanctions against North Korea — a charter member of the "axis of evil" — and remove it from the U.S. terrorism blacklist now that Pyongyang has met a key requirement of its promise to abandon its nuclear weapons program.

Who has a selective memory. That was done as part of the agreements between Bush and North Korea, that in 2005 (a year before the lifting of Sanctons for compliance, that you quoted) resulted in the North Koreans to dismantle the North Korean Nuclear Enrichment Program (the same one that President Obama can do nothing about NOW).

YoHi64 Nice job, Dubya. A real leader would have made that agreement stick.

YoHi64 Hint: The year is 2010, President Obama is the President not Bush (aka Dubya), with the North Koreans restarting their Nuclear Material Enrichment Program this year, 2010, after realizing how weak President Obama is (no response (penalty) for sinking the South Korean Ship, etc.. What really did not help was President Obama automatically discontinuing everything Bush as automatically bad and replacing them with things that do not work or were worse for the US Citizens (example: President Bush's Patriot Act (singular) replaced January 21, 2009 by President Obama's Patriot Acts (plural) that legalized everything considered Illegal under Bush).

There are institutions for people that live in the past.

That's right YoHi64. So why didn't Obama make it stick?

No can do dude. North Korea got nukes. They can sell nukes and make more money then Bill Gates make in his entire life plus extra money to feed their people plus a paid trip to Amsterdam for a weed smoking buffet. Other countries got something call the UN to prevent proliferation of nukes. You dig it? USA got a lot of work to do.

derf,,, go and hide under your rock you crawled from under because you have nothing constructive to say. Your a typical Bush/Cheney war monger clone.

Winker, You must be quaking in you drawers hoping someone else will fight the fight for you. I do think you sound like a coward....

winker - Your a typical Bush/Cheney war monger clone.

It did not help that the Democraps at US Congress were jumping up and down like the Gorrilas on the Planet of the Apes demanding War with Iraq. After the 1973 War Powers Resolution, US Congress must give approval. And since US Congress holds the "Purse Strings", no appropriations (money) equals no US Military Actions (War). HINT: they are YOUR Representatives. Making YOU as much to blame. As the US Military has no voice as absentee ballots are NOT anynomous, and when a regime change occurs your US Military Career is ruined if you do vote for the wrong political party (something the younger officers have not learned yet, and wonder why they get sh!t canned, and we cannot tell them (as this would be undue political influence.)). And we cannot say anything even if it is our Duty to inform the US Public about those things that affect the US Citizens of the US Military of Our Command (Responsibilty) as a last appeal if the US Politicians do not listen to us, especially if it or will result in deaths. examples: General McKiernan fired by President Obama, General McChrystal fired by President Obama, against the recommendations of Secretary of Defense Gates.

Before you say "Insubordination" go read the UCMJ, the Congressional US Military Officer's Commissioning Certificate (appointment to Office as a Representative of US Citizens on the Battlefield), and the Officer's Oath of Office (not the same as the Enlisted/NCO Oath of Enlistment). If General McKiernan and General McChrystal did not tender their resignations this would have required a vote by US Congress after US Congressional hearing, as to how US Congress also voted to approve their nominations to Command Afghanistan after Congressional Hearings, that would have brought out evidence proving "This Administration Does Not Know What It is Doing". I listed what President Obama did to screw up this place (Afghanistan) in detail on other Newsvine Topics. What President Obama did (firing two Generals in a row, because he refused to listen to them (more qualified and experienced then him) so they went public as a last appeal) was like the crazy person claiming that everyone else is crazy.

You should view the documentary "Vice guide to North Korea" It will give you an excellent insight as to what goes on in North Korea and how they feel. Most of the people of the North Korea are in the millitary and it's impressive the control that is put on the people. Living in a modern era but kept down by a dictator you will see the real deal. Check it out and you'll kind of see what really goes on there.

Yeah I know what goes on there.

If we ever actually have to go in to NK we'll find death camps full of political prisoners and an entire country living in the dark with no food

realist-1670590

Annihilated ??...By who ??...The South Koreans ??....If that's the case, why have we stayed there for 60 years in the DMZ ??.....You think Obama will push the button ??

Maybe N. Korea use to think they could push us so far but things have changed. They now work very close with China, Iran and others getting Nuclear Weapons, we are tied up with Iraq and Afghanistan , dangerous Boarder Control, weak Economy and most of all we have a weak Administration. What better time to push our buttons?

It is a mistake, one US Nuclear Missile Sub, one missile from it, would do for them all. The problem is getting their bum leaders without killing their people that they basically use as hostages. Drone attacks?

You've just got to wonder, what's the point of lobbing some artillery shells? Do it just because you can? There's got to be some message they're trying to send or they're trying to somehow measure responses. Maybe testing some new radar or something. If they scrambled jets, what did they actually do? Cruise the border? Cross the border? Artillery shells would indicate a relatively close source of attack. NK has been warning the South not to conduct military drills. Is this the reason behind the message?

You've got to wonder if more is going on than meets the eye. It just seems to me that NK's major installations are pretty well known. Seems like some serious damage could be pretty easily done with conventional weapons if the South chose to retaliate. NK really has no reason to destroy the South, they'd rather control it. Lots of wealth there the North could use. Hard to imagine the South ever accepting leadership from the North though, so again, what's the point? More than likely, Kim is trying to get everyone's attention. That wouldn't be that different than a lot of his other stunts.

Time will tell, but it seems unlikely that this is going anywhere. It's just not likely that any way you play this out, it works to Kim's advantage. I suppose it just provides more reasons to not let this guy build too significant a nuclear program. You've got to wonder if that's not exactly what he's trying to say, so that he can get the rest of the world to buy him off.

I suppose NK having nukes is somewhat of a "defense", but more than likely it's about extortion. Why would they have shown the new enrichment facilities unless they were trying to prove a capability? Seems like something you would have wanted kept secret. I really don't see this guy as wanting to provoke a nuclear war, but more likely just wanting to show off to get recognition. He's got to know that he couldn't win any war he started.

really? Read about the war in Korea ....they are no push overs pal....

janie - good points about the present administration, same applies to the UN

Youkillis - nk needed chinas 1 million+ military to push the UN forces back from the yalu river in the early 50's. Also when the north first invaded the south their military couldn't close the deal by pushing the south into the sea.

The norths military resolve today however is probably much tougher than it was in the 50's.

1new day - interesting points, especially the extortion angle. America seems to be rather adept nowadays about giving away $$$ for appeasement purposes. My take is not a dime in any type of aid from the US government, humanitarian included. Humanitarian aid (if ever needed by the north) should be thru international relief organizations only. Extortion and appeasment policies have never led to anything good just as rules of engagement favoring the opposition has won any battles.

Rather unfortunate that america has never developed an effective propaganda campaign against would be bullies of the world

It's amazing how so many ordinary Americans become military experts. Most are talking crap and don't have a clue about the strength of NK and the consequences for America if we over react. It's easy to say we need to bomb them when we are sitting in a cosy chair and won't have to be on the front line.

Winker- People like you are the problem with the US and the UN. No backbone. You want to critize people on here for a discussion but you offer nothing other than that. Despite what you weak kneed, limp wristed liberals think; war, and a big one, is just what this world needs right now.

Currently there are 6 billion humans on this planet, scientific put that number at over 10 billion within 50 years. This planet cannot support that number. Also, war is a catalyst for evolution. When you take out the two present wars, which I think is due to the squabbling and protesting, wars are actually a major boost to the economy; creating employment, high earnings and income redistribution.

Cal me what you will; war-mongerer, brutal, savage, neanderthal. I don't care. I'm a realist. I spent my time. I saw things in the military that make you curl up in a ball and piss yourself, but this is the truth.

Tell em Bob! I am a realist too, I tend to agree with your post. Horrible? Yes. Truth being spoke? Yes as well.

BobtheBuilder - you're right, you are a savage. Good thing a lot more of us are progressive. Nice one paragraph attempt to explain the solution to all the worlds problems.

"This planet cannot support that number" - What are you a modern day Malthus? Got any data to support that?

"War is a catalyst for evolution". WTF?? Could you at least attempt to explain what that gibberish means? Last time I checked, evolution was a biological process.

As for war boosting the economy - here's the reality :

No, the net effect is definitely negative, and the logic is simple:

- The country typically has to borrow to finance the war, this produces debt which has a long term negative effect on the economy;

- It is true that the removal of soldiers from the producing economy creates a labor shortage which increases the number of jobs available (that's the positive effect). However, the soldiers are paid for activities which add no net value to the economy. So the net of this is also negative.

- The weaponry and supplies expended in the war add no value to the economy: they're not things that people need like cars, food, clothes, etc. Basically they're produced and then consumed in conflict, they don't go in the "asset" column anywhere.

- The destruction inflicted on the infrastructure and people is a net negative: it costs something to repair the damage, the injuries and deaths incur medical and beneficiary costs, etc.

Basically, the people who benefit economically from war are the equity owners of the companies who produce the materials and supplies. But the economy as a whole suffers

Nice try though.

It sure is easy to boast about military exploits from behind an anonymous keyboard, isn't it? Being Chuck Norris and Rambo rolled into one doesn't give your arguments anymore credence. That would be a logical fallacy.

Ivanho- The last time I checked all the weaponry and supplies that are expended have to be produced, and that does what? Oh yeah that's right it creates jobs. Jobs do what? Oh yeah that's right they pay people so they can buy things and spend money. Buying things and spending money does what? Oh yeah boosts the economy. When these people buy things and spend money on things it creates even more jobs. There's your proof on that. If you want more simply read about the effects of war on economies. It's generally accepted, by real economists not your delusions, that this is the case.

Now we can get on to discussing the effects of war on evolution. War is physical and it is mental. By mercilessly culling the herd, wars produce a constant upgrading of the physical and mental accuity of man. Where do you think the saying Only the strong survive! gets its roots. And no evolution is not a simple biological process. If the human condition were perfect and did not need to adapt to anything it would not evolve.

Currently man looks very different than he did millions of years ago because we have changed our surroundings and our habitats. We no longer need some of the natural defenses our bodies had millions of years ago. But this is not a debate on the evolution of man.

As for the Earth cannot support another 7 billion people over the next 50 years, if you can't see for yourself what the overpopulation of this planet is doing to it then there is nothing I can say to open your eyes on that one. Do I want anybody to suffer? No not at all! Do I think that we need to cull the herd absolutely! War is the most balnced and fair way of doing that!

If you don't agree I can respect that. See most people aside from Liberals can respect a difference of opinion. I never said I was Rambo or Chuck Norris, I wasn't boasting about exploits. I simply stated a fact, I'm sorry if those don't fit in your world.

Oh yeah. I forgot to point out this small little insignificant little tidbit. What do you think brought us out of the Great Depression? That's right it was WWII. Damn those wars for being so bad for the economy.

Like the two wars that just bankrupted our country?

bob, your solution is war for profit and population control? Who are you, Dr. Claw? Your world view is laughably psychopathic, valuing money over people and treating human lives as nothing but numbers in a +/- column. If you want to reduce the population, I can think of one way to do your small part right now. I'll even spend an extra $5 on lunch today to boost the economy, what do you say?

Ivanho,

You make some good points. There is no good economical reason for war unless your goal is to take something away from your opponent. It may have a short term stimulative effect, but ultimately the public pays for it.

We've already spent over $1 trillion and before we're completely done paying for it all, triple that amount may be a more realistic true cost. Joseph Stiglitz, Nobel prize winning economist has written on this topic detailing associated costs typically not directly attributed to a military action. Bullets and bombs are only part of the true cost.

What's disgusting about all this is that we can't even say what we really got in return. When you think about all the other things we could have done with that money it gets even worse. Add in lost lives and ruined lives and I can't see anyone really thinking war is ever a good idea, economically or otherwise.

Like the two wars that just bankrupted our country?

\

There are two primary reasons for that - all the 'Rules to War' that do not allow us to end either war quickly, thus making them more expensive. And, all the profits go to one company (Halliburton) instead of being spread among many companies as they were in WWI and WWII.

bobthe builder - The world can easily support more than are on it now. The problem isn't the planets ability to support, the problem is people. Greed, desire to control, lack of empathy and laziness are what starve people - NOT a lack of resources. Killing off random people isn't a fix - nor is it "survival of the fittest." (maybe survival of the lucky ...)

But you are correct in that there will soon be war, "a big one," and those who "are the problem" won't be anymore. But that's from a religious perspective and probably better for another forum.

I agree with some of what Bob says. This planet is profoundly overcrowded. I do not support war as the remedy, but I do think you can not have more kids than you can support. I believe in implantable contraceptives for anyone on welfare. A penalty on taxes for more than two children. There is an inverse relationship between IQ and the number of children people have. I further think it is criminal to to expect the world to take care of your children.

JBond- I agree all those issues are definitely contributing factors but you cannot deny there is a growing lack of resources. As our population grows this will become more and more evident. So whether it be from war or famine there will be a mass culling of the herd. People will suffer either way!

Common- Call it what you want, but the truth is the world is not a eutopia where peace and harmony rule and resources fall out the sky like rain everynight while the world sings "Kumbaya" (or however its spelled). My point is that people have to fight and some of those people have to die in order for the greater populace to exist and thrive. I'm sorry if that does not sit well with you but the truth often hurts. People want to benefit from the decisions but nobody wants to make the hard decisions.

bobthe, I have made hard decisions you are speaking of. It is better they threaten each and talk trash rather than having to stepover bodies. Your thought are bleak and cold. I pray you never are given the opportunity to make such decisions.

wow did we get derailed fast.

Anyway. Mike in Delray, make no mistake, if the North ever decides to go South they will be annihilated. The US, UK, South Korea and plenty of other countries will tear them apart. But its true that NK is no pushover either and it would be an extreamly bloody war for both sides.

Honestly I think its only a matter of time until it happens. NK can't sustain itself forever and I doubt their government will ever be willing to change

The United States fired General MacArthur decades ago for telling the President basicaly this same thing.

john - keep in mind that macarthurs plan was to use nuclear weapons to create a nuclear border DMZ along the yalu river giving north and south a long enough period of time to unify peacefully.

The only reason that China got involved in the first place was because they were protecting their boarder. They have made it clear over the years that they have not changed their mind about that. China would need to be assured that whatever was left on their boarder would be no threat to them. That is going to be hard to achieve.

We should also recall that the NK said (in the recent past) that they would consider sanctions as a declaration of war... Just little reminder about who we are dealing with here. If the NK views such actions in this light, there may be no recourse but to strike first. Not something that I am wishing for.

american-2051576 - john - keep in mind that macarthurs plan was to use nuclear weapons to create a nuclear border DMZ along the yalu river giving north and south a long enough period of time to unify peacefully.

The DMZ did not exist according to the North Koreans until the Panmunjom talks (Armistice)(as an arbitrary line drawn by foreigners, the US and USSR at the end of WWII). His plan was to pull the "kit gloves off" and force the North Koreans to the Chinese Border (which pissed off the Chinese), and if this could not be accomplished then the US would use Nuclear Weapons. This idea started long before he stated it (publicly which pissed off the President), even as Task Force Smith was being wiped out at the very start of the "Korean Conflict" ("Police Action"), as being ill equipped (no armor pearcing ammunition) due to previous Defense Budget Cuts.

In retrospect, you will find that they were right, fired General Patton (reorganize and reequip the German Army and US Allies to fight the "Communists" (USSR, instead we got the Cold War, 1945 to 1990)), fired General MacArthur (push the North Koreans to the Chinese Border, and the MacArthur Plan (US Military rule and rebuilding of Japan), fired General McKiernan (need more US Military, Afghanistan), fired General McChrystal (after he assumed Command/Responsibility, President Obama changed the rules on him (need more US Military, Afghanistan, and "This Administration Does not know what it is doing (sending a hundred thousand US Civilians (especially Lawyers) into a combat zone and prosecuting Military for violations of the Four Legal Authorities Over the US Military (note: this is a strategic goal of enemy Asymmetric Warfare, get them to prosecute their own Military to break morale, and create stricter Rules of Engagement as happened before with other US/UN failure Vietnam) and President Obama's Political Appointees Eikenberry and Holbrooke changing the Rules of Engagement with negotiations with President Kazai to cannot shoot until shot after he assumed Command, with President Karzai demanding General McChrystal investigate President Obama's Political Appointees Eikenberry and Holbrooke for corruptly managing the Billions USDs of US Aid to Afghanistan, while Eikenberry and Holbrooke claim to International News Media that President Karzai is corrupt for supposidely stealing nickels and dimes (undermining the US Mission and President Karzai's Government), so to end the corruption of Eikenberry and Holbrooke, President Karzai demanded that all funds be accounted for and reported or the Aid Organizations managed by Eikenberry and Holbrooke leave his country. Upon assuming Command from General McChrystal, General Petraeus was requested by President Karzai to investigate President Obama's Political Appointees Eikenberry and Holbrooke corrupt management of the Billion USDs of Aid to Afghanistan (money going somewhere, but nothing being built or done). Note: you do not investigate the customer in the parking lot that has not been in the store yet, first;if the money in the cashiers drawer (register) is missing. The US Military, nor President Karzai manage these funds (Aid to Afghanistan) that is a function of the US Department of State, President Obama's Political Appointees Eikenberry and Holbrooke and their Civilian Chain of Command (the same US Civilians that were partying at Paris France overheard by Rolling Stone that were on General McChrystal's High Level Staff, that are now on General Petraeus's High Level Staff, since their names were not published nor punished.).

As for "This Administration does not know what is doing", doing the same things (historically documented failures) and expecting different results.

You want the winner of the Nobel Peace Prize to launch a strike on North Korea, a move that will surely draw the 1 Billion man Army of China into a conflict ???....Think he will ??

Maybe he will, most likely he won't, but it'll be funny to watch us blow up N. Korea's nuke sites then watch Obama turn around and berate Israel for doing the same to Iran in the future. You know it's gonna happen.

Attacking Iran could very well provoke Iran's ally's North Korea, China and Russia to engage in a shooting war with America.

Russia's a strange cat. I don't know if they would immediately align with China in said conflict. Doesn't mean they would support us either.

You may not know this but China once told the Americans they would commit a million troops to North Korea if we crossed the 38th Parallel. We didn't believe them. We crossed it and they did it. It came to be known as the Korean War and it still has not ended. Only a cease fire is in place so before you go talking that junk yard talk about what we need to do to North Korea, remember that (1) China has got their back. (2) We are already spread thin in two wars. (3) We are in the backyard of the Chinese. (4) We can't expect any help from any other nations. (5) THIS IS A BIGGIE. Our backs would be to the water on all three sides. The only way to supply or re-supply and bring in and extract troops would be by air and sea, both of which are time consuming and both of which would leave our forces exposed to attack from an enemy that has land based support. South Korea is a really logistical nightmare.

I just hope South Korea doesn't go pulling some stupid stuff like when Georgia invaded Russia (edit:South Ossetia). Remember that war?

Agreed...Russia's a tough call. They may prefer to have the West as a balance against China. They would probably try to stay out of it. They wouldn't want China to swallow up Mongolia again, which would probably be a result of a major conflict.

Oh well, nothing's gonna happen anyway...ho hum.

ken in nc - Actually, from a historical perspective having ones "back to the sea" only inspires those with their backs to the sea to fight harder. S. korea in the 50's, england during WWll. roman generals using a program of decimation to strengthen ther soldiers resolve, japans resolve to fight to the end when it came to defending territories gained at the start of WWll, who was it that burned their ships to cut off an escape by sea? Even our own revolutionary leaders knew they would be hanged as traitors if they lost the war.

While it might be possible but an alliance of Russia and China is very questionable. It is just as likely that China would invade Russia.

Mike in Delray, you are wrong about the billion man army in China. I believe China has the 3rd largest army behind America and India. While it is true that the Chinese government requires all first year college students to under go intensive military training at the start of the school year. Those students are not a part of the military and would only be called into action if China was invaded by a foreign country in a full scale war not just a border skirmish. The South Koreans are more than capable of destroying the North Korean army if China does not become involved in any armed aggression by the north. I live in China at the present and will tell you that China and South Korea are very closely tied in imports and exports. They are very much aligned in trade and policy that the American government does not tell you about. China is a major factor in building an Asian economy with all of its neighbors. This includes Japan even though there are some minor problems from time to time.

I'll bet China knows where the nukes are. This is a Chinese problem and time for them to step up to the plate and invade NK.

China is more interested in economic conquest of the world than military. In the 50's they were a little more skitish with a very new government/system at the time. They would now do what benifits their pocket book. If their "little brother" North Korea keeps pushing or invades out right, they will stand back at the border and watch them get crushed. A unified Korea leaning more toward a capitalistic form of government would benifit them a whole lot more than supporting North Korea as it is now. As long as any direct conflict was led by the south with the nearby neighbors and western allies staying out of it directly they would probably just sit back and watch. South Korea can handle North Korea themselves as long as it stayed conventional.

love sonnet,
I'll defer to your proximate knowledge of the workings of China and the numbers in their standing army. To you and "Tvine". My question is, if South Korea can easily handle North Korea, and China for all the reasons you state will stay out of it....Why is the U.S. still there 60 years later. ?? Our presence on the border certainly didn't stop N.Korea from doing what they did this morning.

chi-town-2520781 - Four F-16's armed with 2000lb laser-guided bombs should do the trick on the Yongbyon nuclear facility.

Are you going to be the USAF Forward Air Traffic Controller on the Ground with the laser designator. As the laser designators on the aircraft are defeated (reflected) by clouds or actively anything like smoke (like when President Saddam Hussein ordered the lighting of the Northern and Southern Iraqis Oil Fields (and you thought he was stupid), this was not to deprive the US of the Iraqis Oil Fields like some misinformed News Media came up with. This also defeated US Satellite Intelligence gathering.).

The same with attacking the North Korean Missiles and Nuclear Weapons Storage Facilities that are hardened up to a tactical nuclear strikes, as being under the mountains in reinforced concrete tunnels. After SALT and START the US no longer has "Tactical" Nuclear Weapons as they were retrograded and even the manufacturing processes destroyed (my involvement with the Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces (INF) before my career (Functional Area) was changed).

By the way just like here (Afghanistan) the acceptable error is about 200m from center of target. Like on a 500 pound smart bomb, the high velocity fragmentation distance is over 3,000m. Translation if they are off by the acceptable 200m the blast or high velocity fragments will tear you to pieces.

And just like how the Taliban defeat the US High Tech with cheap low tech, by reporting the speed direction and altitude of the USAF, USMC, USN aircraft just before they reach Afghan Airspace. With the Taliban not even being around by the time the USAF, USMC, USN aircraft drop their bombs. Since we have to break contact with the Taliban or get blown up also.

So yes, you sit there with a laser designator and become "Collateral Damage" (dead).

Frostbyte Falls MN.....That was a very good essay on the subject. I understand it. I was asking the other 2 posters why they thought we needed to still have our troops there if the Chi-Coms wouldn't get involved if the North attacked and the South beat them back to the China border as they said the South could do all by themselves...... And there is one of the answers.....China doesn't want a few million already starving refugees from North Korea.....

actually sally is more harsh than tyler

should our president be visiting an auto plant with this

attack going on

Weapons of mass destruction was the premise for invading Iraq. Here, North Korea is waving them. Does this mean the U.S. invades North Korea? No oil there and they have a more organized military than Iraq. Go figure.

Maybe you are weak. speak for yourself.

We already have two wars. We can't afford another. If you are so eager to die then go jump off a bridge. Don't be so quick to volunteer other people's lives for another unnecessary war. As other's have said, if we were to take massive military action it would enflame the entire region and involve all the world's largest military powers. Does that sounds like a good idea? No good would come from it. Let N Korea further isolate themselves. They aren't going to nuke anyone so there is no reason to take such drastic action.

Stop watching so much TV. You can't just start blowing people away like Rambo. That's not realistic.

Talked with an old army buddy of mine about decreasing military spending by getting rid of the contractors and replacing them with service personnel again. His comment was that to do that we would have to re-implement the draft to get the extra needed manpower.

Perhaps it is time to revive the draft to accomplish two things, reduce military cost by eliminating contract services and to send a message to would be bullies.

@ Leah Ryan, I don't think that complaints about government-mandated but otherwise illegal search (as per the 4th amendment) and legalized sexual molestation of children, women and the elderly qualify as small BS complaints. You give up one of your constitutional rights and you are on a slippery slope to giving up all of your constitutional rights. The fact that North Korea is building up (possibly) nuclear weapons is certainly something that we need to be very concerned about, but that does not diminish the horror of the TSA's government-approved sexual abuse of American citizens.

Well said, I'm sick of the U.S. being the world police, sacraficing the lives of our brothers and sisters for WHAT?

For what? To keep our country safe in the long run. It's not always about here and now. You have to look at the grand scheme of things. If you let everyone do what they want you end up with another Hitler bent on world domination. This will always be the way it is.

american-2051576 - Talked with an old army buddy of mine about decreasing military spending by getting rid of the contractors and replacing them with service personnel again. His comment was that to do that we would have to re-implement the draft to get the extra needed manpower.

Secretary of Defense Gates is already attempting to do this, inspite of the US Contractor Lobbyists. The expected decrease to the US Defense Budget is 50% (pessimistic number) by eliminating all US Civilians out of the US Military. By doing this with the current US Unemployment using the Great Depression Era formulae the US Unemployment is 20% and rising. The Great Depression was 25%. With the elimination of the US Contractors, the US Civilian employees of the US Contractors would have to choose to either be unemployed or join the US Military to do the jobs that they are only capable of performing.

The other measures currently being accomplished is the decreases of US Conventional Warfare Forces (most of the Conventional Warfare Forces being the USAF and USN) as reflected in the April 2009 Defense Budget Cuts and increases to the US Military Asymmetric Warfare Forces (aka Special Warfare). As even trained and taught "back in my day" at Command and General Staff College and War College the next Wars after the defeat of the USSR would be Asymmetric Warfare NOT Conventional Warfare (huge Armored Formations, Bomber Formations, Aircraft Carriers, etc. like the height of the Cold War.). This is extremely unpopular with US Congress since thru the Congressional Defense Appropriations Committee they force the US Military to buy the obsolete Cold War Era designed crap built in their States (as US Civilian Jobs). And Secretary of Defense Gates knows this and did not care so he chopped as much as he could of this Cold War Era designed crap forced on the US Military.

If the US Military (especially the USAF, USMC, USN and US Army Conventional Warfare Forces) wants to still have a Mission they need to train up from Conventional Warfare to Asymmetric Warfare for the Current and Future Wars.

As a further cut to the US Defense Budget was President Bush's 2005 Base Realignment and Closures (BRAC) as passed into Law by US Congress. With the current Congress panicking because they finally realize how many US Civilian Jobs are lost with the closing or consolidation of US Military Installations. example: 5,000 US Civilian jobs lost after the closure of Joint Forces Command (and that was a small US Military Installation), the US Military were reassigned.

Before the President Clinton Cut to the Bone Reduction In Forces of the US Military, that created the niches for the expensive US Contractors (US Civilian Jobs), the US Military did as "cheap in house": Logistics, Supply, Sea Air Land Transportation, Aircraft Vehicle Weapons Maintenance, Sanitation (Waste Disposal, Bathing Facilities, Laundry Services, etc.), Water Purification, Fuel Storage, Food Service, VIP Protection, Communications, Electronic Maintenance and Repair, Computers (including networking), etc..

example: US Civilian Truck Driver, $200,000 per year plus all benefits of US Military and more, (after first year probation $300,000 per year), and requires US Military to provide Security or expensive US Security Contractors. US Military Truck Driver, $24,000 per year also is a combatant provides own security, and performs other duties as assigned like Guard Duty.

At the Pentagon on Secretary of Defense Gates Personal Staff over 1,000 US Civilians. So chop the US Civilians out of the Pentagon also, especially the thousands of US Civilians that are Political Appointees, SESs, Interns with NO US Military Experience as Department Chiefs/Heads. And replace them with US Military as because they are US Civilians they have no possible threat of being deployed so they have no sense of urgency as just a 9 to 5 Job.

US Civilian Administrative Assistant (Clerk) over $50,000 per year plus benefits better than US Military and a higher COLA. US Military Administrative Assistant (Clerk) in the same office with the identical duties, $24,000 per year.

Currently it is estimated that there are just over one hundred million US Civilians that are in the US Military, not including the US Contractors. The previous ratio was one US Military is supported by five US Civilians. The current ratio is one US Military is supported by eleven US Civilians.

Indirectly there are even more US Civilians as those in the Towns, Cities around US Military Installations like, Civil Lawyers, School Teachers (dependents of US Military, and US Military for Civilian degrees), State and Local Governments (revenues, vehicle registration, licensing, etc.), Retail, Fast Food, Theaters, Restaurants, New and Used Car Dealerships, Transportation, PX/BX/Commissary Workers, Facilities maintenance, Medical, Dental, Utilities, etc..

With example of what happened being President Clinton's closure of 14 US Military Installations creating a near Great Depression Era Economy in the surrounding Civilian towns and cities, while President Clinton claiming a Budget Surplus (as money appropriated vesus money spent, not being a real indicator like the National Deficit or Interest on the National Deficit, with President Clinton's, $18.9 Billion, interest on the National Debt exceeding President Bush, $16.6 Billion). The President Clinton closure of the 14 US Military Installations also caused many US Civilians to flee the towns and cities around the closed 14 US Military Installations to other States for work (further causing a collapse of the economies of the towns, cities, States that the US Civilians fleed).

So yes, get all the US Civilians the heck out of the US Military. Just want all of you to know the consequences. So that I can say I TOLD YOU SO, again (about all the other things I stated that have happened before, due to doing the same things as before.).

Weak from fear and loathing.

Sanzee,

YES! Those flag draped coffins look so cool lined up on the tarmack waiting for the final flight home to their families. A side benefit is that it would drastically lower unemployment in the country. BUT, do you think China will lend us money to have a war with a nation that is on their border?

Let's start with your ass.

wher is bush when we need him?

Bush is having a Jack Daniels on the back porch, if he hasn't passed out already.

@ NH Tom

SOME think freedom is free.....Hummmm? bleeding hearts think everything must be fair for everyone every time in every situation.....the bad guys dont think that way and wont change.

talk, talk, talk....ENOUGH!

B O O O O M !!

Go for it Sanzee!!!! We're right behind you....pretty far behind, actually.

Dude, grow up, we're not just gonna nuke North Korea out of existence.

No, not directly. I have no doubt, however, that the nuclear weapons now in possession by the North,(estimated at 6 to 10), and the ones now in development at their new enrichment facility will be used someday against South Korea ... it's a matter of time. The South will react in kind with the same deadly force utilizing the small tactical warheads developed and supplied by the West. Unfortunately, the new regime under Kim Jong's son is posturing itself to be even more miltant to the West than originally feared. Obviously this is the hottest of the hotspots around the globe that needs to be defused without resulting in a war.

Steve, The hottest place is and will be the middle east with Israel having 170 nukes and 3/4 being thermonuclear. I believe my facts are correct. They were spilled during a White House talk in the late 1970's. I have heard the same numbers from some former CIA types. Israel does not need protecting, the world needs protecting from them. We offered them 20 advanced fighters if they would stop the settlements for 90 days. This tail does wag the dog. Israel will never loose a war when they have all those H-bombs. The settlements will continue, they will continue to sell our technology to anyone with cash. Now we will give them F-22's. They already have all the F-15s and 16s they can use. With allies like this we don't need any more enemies.

And some people think that the end times are just a myth. The mayan calender recycles in 2012, will we as well?

Why is it that everybody since the begining of time have always felft like they were the ones living in the end of times?

The reason we have not attacked N. Korea and blown them to smithereens is that N.Korea doesn't have an ample supply of oil, which Iraq obviously did have....so we sent tens of thousands of Americans to fight in the heat of the Desert to preserve those reserves for ourselves. Hence, every huge international company flew over there to "help" out our military. They have made enough money to pay off our 12 trillion dollar debt.

They have no weapons that can reach the USA, YET!

nighthawk - what about alaska??

Irregardless isnt even a word.

common, irregardless, hopefully we can leave proper english out of this cause it gets boring otherwise

Tough talk Jimmie! North Korea is going to get it's A@# kicked, Big time but just as long as your not included right? Get this coward! Shut up or put up! Is that why you pay taxes so other truly brave man and women can die kicking A$%, Big time for you! Oh that's right your one of the 47% who get all of their taxes back or does not pay at all! Thank you for your service putz!

3 minutes to midnight. umm, getting closer!

@ NH Tom

Jungle......dude LoLololololo LOL Please....do this forum a favor and go to bed with your bleeding heart cry baby..."oh you like flag draped coffins" boo hoo. Unfortunately our world is run by people like you...you dont even know what you are talking about and you post such stupid things...Jungle HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHa

Ignorance !! What a life it must be to live in your shoes....I feel so sorry for you.

Ya our record for jungle combat is so stellar right...you need more school son...we Already tried this before,hence the problem's we have now...Sheep belong in the pen !

I think the problems in the past were less of our inability to fight in the jungle and more of our lack of knowing what the hell we were supposed to be doing in the first place.

Jesse2gunz

Ya our record for jungle combat is so stellar right

What in the wide, wide world of sports does jungle warfare have to do with North Korea?

Your kidding right....Have you ever seen North Korea....? Do you think it's a urban setting ? Perhaps next to Euro Disney maybe ?

We certainly would not be able to crush the North into nothingness in a matter of days (at least, not without nuclear retaliation).

And I have seen North Korea, and it is definitely no jungle. It's not urban, but that doesn't make it a jungle. Mountain warfare maybe; jungle no.

Our problems in the jungle and the Mountains and the sand is a bunch of crybabies back home who lay in their loungers and cry about the hardships they have. Kinder, gentler is not going to save our collective backsides.

Jungle? No Korea? Did you miss a geography course in school?

http://local.msn.com/worldweather.aspx?q=p’yŏngyang-prk&eid=24935

MH Tom:

I did not think that geography is still taught in school. I recall seeing a TV segment (on one of the networks) where school graduates were asked where certain country's are located, and about 93% of the kids could not identify most.

Bob,

History and Civics are out also and I'm not sure about English and Math. What do they teach today? I just love Leno's "Jay Walking" .

They just teach them how to pass those end-of-year exams; "ACBAADCABBADCAC. Class dismissed."

Point made thaPyngwyn, we are doomed! Idiots! I laughed so hard when I heard jungle... It is one of those new jungles where you try not to freeze to death in the minus 30 degree weather! The Koreans have a hell of a time planting rice in those frozen fields. Geography? Rated teen by X-box.

My uncles fought in the Korean War. 1 uncle was at the battle for the Chosan Reservoir in the 1st Marine Div.

He didn't see any jungle, just mountains, forests and grasslands. It was cold and snowy where he was at(most US troops there got some form of frostbite, as they lacked cold weather gear).

Jungle foliage doesn't grow in most areas that have winter temps. below freezing.

If you ever watched "Mystery Men," you'd know that to make up for the lack of manpower, you make up in firepower. So, since we don't have enough troops to invade and occupy Korea, we just skip that step and go right to nuclear weapons.

ImoenOfTelengard.....If you still think the Gubmint is telling the truth about the mystery contrails off the coast of Kalifonia last week....That it was a civilian aircraft that no US air traffic control had on it's radar ??...It was a missile from a Chinese submarine firing a warning shot across the bow of the USS Obama Administration.

oh...that

well, that was an optical illusion from a jet contrail...or wazzit?

there were also two off Florida that nobody would fess up to.

this is the most lying and news squashing admin ever.

I bet no one here new there was a mass protest of obammy on the 4th of July on the DC mall
all squashed by the king of the usa

Where did you hear that Mike?

Smarty_Pants: Mike in Delray picked up that message in a radio transmission received via his tin-foil hat

Good one Chucky2 !!...Mock me if you will for not believing our Gubments weeklong changing explanation of what it was. First it was impossible for it to have been a U.S. missile, next day they were doing a Missile count, just in case they were wrong about it being "impossible". Then NORAD was reviewing it's tapes, unusual silence from the FAA and Air Traffic Control after they first reported it wasn't any jet they had on their radar at the time......Move along folks, nothing to see.....then they produced some "similar looking photos" that were wind blown out of shape...and none of them had the flames still emanating from the tail end of "it" that the video footage was showing. ...Yeah, DC has no reason to not admit a foreign sub launched a missile 30 miles of the coast of California....It's sort of a free country, you are free to believe what you want....and so am I.....Mock away, Mock away