Did you get into some trouble as a kid picking on inferiors?

Who are the inferiors? The kids picking on (bullying) others or the kids being picked on (bullied)?

My guess is the agressors are trying to no avail to prove their superiority.

You, and I know the difference...but kids, especially in groups, tend to not look further, and see the differences between a bit of horse play, and actually demeaning someone. Another point to consider when allowing this sort of hazing.... is how do you determine when someone, or some group has "crossed the line"? Once injury has occurred, it's too late!! As someone already mentioned [and I agree].."Just because it was OK in past, does not necessarily make it OK now!!" We, as adults, cannot compare our reactions, to that of a young kid...since they do not have the maturity to see what is reasonable, and what is not. They're also held captive to the notion that if they don't comply [to WHATEVER the group plans for them], they will loose out on being "part of the crowd".... and THAT is paramount for any teenager. It's all about being part of the crowd, and having friends. Many will subject themselves to all sorts of abuse, to feel "accepted". As an adult, you [I'm giving you more credit than you may deserve] KNOW the differences, and you are less apt to bend to the group, if it demeans your own character.

This is an interesting case. First off, the law is the law. Dumb/Smart as it may seem. Based on that, the school acted correctly.

Now about 'harm.' I do agree that we have turned into wussies if throwing a pie in someone else's case ends up ruining a college career. On the other hand, there are things people do that 'don't leave marks' which damge people worse than losing college careers. It doesn't seem like this happened in this case, but in countless others it has.

I tend to agree with elothex, but want to point out that bullying is generally done by the most despicable fashions, including teaming up on an individual. Kids have to be taught better is the real lesson here, not ruining the college careers of the abusers in this case. And yes, their careers will be ruined by having this incident on their record.

I'm sure the pies would have been ok , it's probably the dragging them around on a dog leash that clinched it.

Absolutely right ms-98. This wasn't kids hitting each other with pies or having a food fight (which would imply that the other kids had food or pies also). These kids were blindfolded and dragged around with dog collars. If this had been done at an Iraqi prison we would be screaming for the guards heads to roll... wait, that's exactly what happened.

I'm going to guess that most of you who are complaining about this never played sports, at least not seriously. This is no big deal. Having played sports, including college hockey, you know when something goes too far, or you are in danger. It's a right of passage that most actually feel proud to be a part of. What a bunch of wimps we are turning into.

There is a difference, between harmful behavior and a little ribbing, but it is always good thing to behave well.

I completely agree with you ChiCity! I played sports in High School and "Homecoming Week" was when the Freshman athletes were "initiated" by the Senior athletes, we looked forward to it because it meant we were part of the team. Noone was hurt; embarassed, sure, afterall that was the point. Everyone knew it was all in fun and nobody took it personally.

I'm sure that the girls on both sides of this incident did not consider this to be a hazing type of deal. PC gone crazy!

mmmmm ... pie

@derek - good points

We as adults know the difference. That is why we as adults need to act in an intelligent manor to handle these situations. We as adults should not act irrational to irrational behavior. That is the point I am getting at.

I would not tolerate comments aimed at REAL degradation, or humiliation. Or constant and unrelenting torment. Or any prejudice behavior. Or any physical harm - that to me is a real injury, not a broken nail.

No I was not a bully, i have been bullied. I am also lucky enough to have stood up for myself.

-the dog leash is to far, agreed. Luckily they didn't choke someone.

We don't know this, but again I would bet they were led around on all 4's, not dragged. I would bet, given the fact that I don't see the parents of the freshmen up in arms over this, that there was never any tension even on the leash. I don't know this, pure speculation, but I think I can picture exactly what happened.

The problem with hazing rituals are that they can easily get out of hand. My kids played sports and some of the team building rituals involved activities that involved things that were embarrassing and perhaps physically strenuous, but did not present any potential harm. The problem lies in that that sometimes each successive season the they kids try to up the ante.

Lets face it, kids can be oblivious to consequence, and I believe that today many people do not develop a sense of responsibility for their actions. If something went awry and one of the kids got hurt, a million lawyers would be crawling out of the wood work. Look at what happened when the school tried to act responsibly and follow the law, lawyers and parents more worried about whether their kids are going to play rather than anything else.

I played high school sports in addition to being in marching band and the drill team. We always respected one another. It was like a family. We never hazed anyone. Why? The point of hazing is to humilate the new guy. Let's be honest here.

What is the difference in smashing an open hand in someone's face or a pie? Getting smashing in the face with any object other than a pillow can hurt or cause damage. Goofing around is one thing, but unfortunately it always gets out of hand and someone takes it too far. You can't take things back or undo an injury. The pie smashing thing really wasn't too bad. If someone does that to me...make sure it's apple...and don't forget the ice cream!

But what is the purpose of dragging around a peer on a dog leash? Or even 'walking' your peer as a dog? To me, that screams of someone just wanting to degrade and humilate the other. Of course the parents of these little darlings don't see anything wrong with this. No wonder today's kids act like zoo animals.

Kids die *every year* from seemingly innocent things like this that suddenly get out of control.

There is a reason why most school ban hazing -- because it doesn't take much for something to go very wrong and for someone to get killed.

People die every year from things like this? Give me a break. This has been going on at this school for many years, without incident.

SMD, there is value to hazing. I played college sports and joined a fraternity. The bonds and loyalty I developed in these rituals are stronger than I can explain. Ask the military if there is a benefit to breaking down an entire group? That may be a more extreme example, but the analogy is sound.

Here is what one student had to say about this incident: “The soccer team has been doing this to new recruits for years,’’ said Sydney Kantoff, a senior. “I talked to the girls, and they said everyone was laughing. The biggest problem was that one girl got pie on her boots. And guess what? Her teammates bought her a new pair of boots.’’

What they did was against the rules...they should understand that...in competition, you play by the rules, if you don't, you're penalized. The rules are pretty clear, so the punishment must be given out...no execptions.

Donna, this rule isn't new. Yet, it had been going on for years. Is it realistic to think that they didn't think this fell under the topic of hazing? Given that no one said boo about it since the law was passed? Selective enforcement? Or just the continuing trend towards cover your own backside over common sense?

I would bet they were led around on all 4's, not dragged. I would bet . . . that there was never any tension even on the leash. but I think I can picture exactly what happened.

Let's leave your fantasizing out of this and focus instead on the hazing incident.

They have been accused, not found guilty. It's too bad we live in a world where accusations are now fact. Remember the LaCrosse guys that were accused of rape? Only to find out a year later the girl lied and wanted attention and money? Those guys were kicked off the team, expelled from the school and lost their full scholarships. They never got a sorry, were never re-instated, their lives were ruined based on an accusation.

I think it's too bad these girls are suspended before anything is proven.

They have been accused, not found guilty. It's too bad we live in a world where accusations are now fact.

Dude, you're skating on thin ice. Most people who post on these vines equate accusation with guilt. They argue that we should dispense with our trial system, and many advocate the death penalty for everything from rape to jay-walking. Check out the posts on the Elizabeth Smart abduction trial if you don't believe me.

What's sad and funny about this is that they have laws against hazing and equate this with bullying, but usually anti-bullying laws aren't enforced where anti-hazing laws are. The thing with hazing is that it is temporary, pretty much a one-time thing, then you are brought into the group. Whereas bullying is meant to exclude those who are weaker and smaller and is pretty much never-ending until the vicitim somehow removes himself from the situation. I think it is sad to equate hazing with bullying and even sadder that there are tougher (enforced) laws against hazing than against bullying.

Well said Brent

What was done was a violation of the law and school policy. Whether you agree with the policy or not, these girls as well as their coach knew it was against the rules and did it anyway. I do not buy the no harm, no foul argument. If you take this attitude, the envelope will continue to be pushed until someone does get hurt, and then there may be no way to make things right. Throwing anything in someones face risks eye injury, even if it is just pie. Would people think it was OK if one of the girls had not closed her eyes in time and wound up with her vision permanently damaged. The school took the appropriate action and should be commended for the way they handled it. The coach, who failed to report the incident likely did so because his daughter was one of the ones doing the hazing. He should be fired from his position as the coach since he has clearly demonstrated that he can not be trusted to be a responsible adult and properly supervise the team. I was a member of sports teams throughout high school and college and attended a military academy, so I am not some wuss who does not understand team building. I just feel there are other ways to do it beside hazing.

The pies are one thing.

blindfolding pulling underclassmen with dog leashes

Is WAY WAY OUT OF LINE!!

ChiCity

"People die every year from things like this? Give me a break. This has been going on at this school for many years, without incident."

Try educating yourself with facts before you go spouting off like you know the statistics of people dying over hazing gone wrong.

November 14, 2005

It's a parent's nightmare and a nagging fear for the people who run colleges and universities: A young fraternity pledge dies when hazing gets out of control. It's happened at least once each year for more than three decades. Nine months ago it happened at Chico State University in California, and this time prosecutors did something unusual: They filed felony criminal charges against the fraternity brothers involved.

Hey Samiam, I do not dispute people dying from hazing. What I dispute is that anyone was ever injured doing this exact same ritual, at this exact same school, for years. You can't lump everything into one.

The Chico State case you speak of, I think, is where the kid died of water intoxication? Any educated person would know that was dangerous, and shouldn't do it. You can't put all rituals, hazing, whatever you want to call it into the same group. Again, zero tolerance coupled with zero discretion and zero common sense.

I tell my daughter, "If in doubt, would you act like this in front of your grandparents?" If the answer is no, then it's probably not a good idea to do it, whether any harm could come from it or not. These parents seem to think that their kids didn't do anything wrong, but where do we draw the line? It's okay until someone gets physically hurt? By then, the damage is done and it's too late to take it back. What about being emotionally degraded? Those wounds aren't as easily seen, so who are they to say that no one is any worse off because of what happened?

What ever happened to "If you can't say (or do) something nice, don't say (or do) anything at all"? Hazing is not necessary for a "team-building" experience.

Well, you must have been a bully at some point for you to stick up for these children who did something as ridiculous as this. If my child came home and told me something like this happened to him, it would be a bad day for the bullies, for the parents of the bullies, and for the damn school!

ChiCity - Hazing of any kind is illegal in Massachusetts. To try and argue that they should be allowed to get away with it because they got away with it in the past is asinine logic.

I searched this story and read all the reports I could find on it. Only two stated the girls were dragged by a leash. Two said they were pulled and I think I counted six or seven that did not mention the leashes at all. I am pretty sure the "dragged" is being used get your attention.

Come on people wake up! Since when did throwing pies and dragging people on dog leashes help you become a better teammate or athlete. How about instead of hazing these underclassmen, they took them to the field and did extra practice to build a better team. For all those who say it is all innocent, tell that to the parents who have had to bury their child all because of innocent, all in fun hazing. And no not all people know what is right or wrong how stupid are you to think that a person capable of demeaning a human being is capable of knowing how far to take something.

All of this sensitivity makes me want to vomit. I do not appreciate all you dandies who have your lawyer on speed dial to prosecute everytime Little Johnnie gets a boo boo. @!$%# happens and people get hurt and die all the time for a variety of reasons. Your crusade to make this f'ed up world a perfect place where everyone lives in harmony is laughable.

As for college "kids" and hazing... even more ridiculous. They are grown and making a concious decision to participate for whatever whacky reason. If they cannot estimate the risk and consequence of their choices, screw em.

Natural selection, folks. The world is overpopulated, you don't like it... plz rid us of your stupidity.

ChiCity...I played sports and don't agree with hazing and I was never hazed....By your comments, however, I can assume you've hazed?? Did you use plungers?? Mini baseball bats?? Duct tape?? Did hazing ever make you play harder or did good coaches make you play harder?? And if good coaches made you play harder was it because they were hazing you too??

Lionel - did you read the article? These are HIGH school KIDS! Nothing in this article talks about college ADULTS. Hopefully natural selection will take care of you also.

Rob, it is this jump from hazing or initiation rights, to inuendo of sexual assault that completely discredits you. You fail to recognize the difference. Dungeons and dragons club doesn't count as a sport.

Mutts rule, that was not my point. My point is that it is realitic to think that this does not rise to the level of hazing, as evidenced by the fact that no one ever had a problem with it despite the fact that the law was in place.

Also Lionel, the article clearly states that it was the parents of the ACCUSED that are filing a law suit. They are the whiny little brats that can dish it out but can't take the consequences!!

Chi, It is clearly a case of hazing and hazing is illegal. This is the problem with society today, no one takes responsibility for their actions. The girls broke the rule and were suspended - a perfectly acceptable punishment. Then the parents go wasting tax payers dollars so that their moronic offspring can play in a soccer game?!? If it had been just the pies, no big deal - but dog leashes are humiliating and cruel. You have made a lot of assumptions about what really happened on the field, so my turn... do you know who was watching? Is it possible that other students were watching these girls being dragged around like dogs? Can you imagine how humiliating that would be to a 14 year old girl? It doesn't matter whether you think it's funny or harmless, it was against school policy and the law and they should learn how the whole consequences thing works before they make an even bigger mistake.

Mutts Rule,

My goodness...I couldn't agree with you more! Well said!!!

So in your eyes hazing is different than initiating "rights"??? Let me tell you about a case here in a local high school...Kids were poke with a plunger, and I'll let you guess where...The kids who were the agressors called it hazing...Not "initiation rights"...So I guess they were wrong and need to be explained the definitions of each?? So everyone has the "right" to be initiated? Your feeble attempt to condone what they did discredits you and all who support what was done.

My point is that it is realitic to think that this does not rise to the level of hazing, as evidenced by the fact that no one ever had a problem with it despite the fact that the law was in place.

How do you know? Have you talked with the kids who here hazed? Were you there?? Were you one of the hazers? The only evidence I see is the evidence you were most likely in on hazing in school and got off on it....

And all you could come up with was "Dungeons and Dragons doesn't count as a sport"......Wow....Don't know how to top that one.....

I would not call pie throwing hazing. I would not lead someone around on a leash.

And I think lots of people want to go to a system where everyone wins and no one looses. No one ever gets hurt. No one feels loss. No one feels pain. That would be horrible because our life is dependent on the duality. If everything is good than nothing is good, because you have no way to judge it.

I just think they could of handled THIS situation differently. I guess if the rule says the punishment is immediate suspension, etc. Then they can follow that rule. If however the punishment is not stated then they could have made the punishment fit the crime.

Lots of comments on responsibility, so is it not the responsibility of the kids being hazed to walk away before they are hazed, say they are not participating, and then report them? That would be responsible. Before you ask "But why should they have to?" They should, it is silly to assume that the hazies had no choice.

etothex...The difference between someone feeling pain from LOSING is that the pain is from losing...Not from it being inflicted by a hazing ritual...

Again, not a single one of these girls came out and said they were hurt. Where are you getting this from. Look up some of the local articles on this, where more students are interviewed. Not one came out and said they were hurt in any way.

im afraid your wrong if u dont appreciate the teasing and it continues because the teasers think its funny it becomes bullying atheltes are treated to often as above the rules and given sp-ecial treatment and excuses rules are keep your hands and mouth off of other people period. lay hands on sumone uninvited and pay the price. PERIOD.

Apparently you do not know the difference. Why are so many young people committing suicide these days. Step back and think what you tried to say!

Perhaps you did not read my posts. I specifically say that CONSTANT, is not ribbing or joking, it becomes bullying. Sorry if you can't tell the difference. You should step back and read what I wrote.

Well, if the soccer doesn't work out, it sounds like these gals could get a job at a pleasure dungeon... I mean they're already dabbling with the bondage anyway...

Yup, they need to learn that decisions have consequences. They made the decision to abuse younger teammates, now they can deal with the consequences.

Robert & Vinnie,

Do you really think the kids were aware of this inane law and intentionally decided to break the law? I seriously doubt it.

Once again, people are not using common sense, PC has run amok again.

Having played sports in high school and college, I also experienced hazing (dishing it out as a senior and taking it as a freshman). Some of it was more extreme that what happened here, but everyone survived and no one was scarred for life. It was a bonding experience.

Telling kids age 14 to 18 to "GROW UP" illustrates how out of touch you truly are.

This country is becoming a bunch of Politically Correct, whining babies who are afraid of their own shadow and will sue at the drop of a hat. I'm sure there are some lawsuits already being filed.

Jefferson, the article mentions that the parents of the students accused of hazing filed the lawsuit/restraining order, not the other way around.

Kids do need to be taught that whatever you do there are consequences, and if you can't handle the consequences don't do it. Instead their parents file a lawsuit. It's always someone else's fault and I can do whatever I want because mommy and daddy will bail me out.

And your comment:

"Telling kids age 14 to 18 to "GROW UP" illustrates how out of touch you truly are."

One of the comments in the article mentioned how their daughter was a "responsible adult", so they must think she's grown up.

buddy if your going to try to be holier then thou and @!$%# and try to put people down, insulting their intelligence, for doing something that in the big picture is not that bad and no one got hurt by, the least you can do is spell STUPIDITY correctly you moron.

Their in high school chief, you grow up.

G-So since it is "high school" they automatically get to break the law and abuse and humiliate others? Whether you like it or not it is the law and it doesn't matter how long they got away with it or if no one was hurt THIS time(physically) it is still the LAW.

Jeffersonwasright,

It really doesn't matter whether the kids knew it was illegal or not. The fact is that it's just plain stupid! And if their parents are trying to okay it...well then we know where their stupidity was learned from.

g,

They are, not THEIR in high school chief, and who needs to grow up

and learn how to spell?

G-267blahblah:

Before you call someone a moron for improper spelling, you might want to brush up on your own grammar.

Their in high school chief, you grow up.

Their is a plural personal pronoun of possession indicating "belonging to them". They're is a contraction of "they are".

Now who's the moron?

AHAHAH!! G...Now who is the idiot? Man that was one of the funniest things I've seen all day....I bet we won't see you back in here for a bit....

First: the law is redundant because it is set in place for people that do things like force feed beer to people or do things that may cause serious harm, or bully them. I think the law should apply for harmless fun. And yes I say harmless due to the fact that even the parents of the freshman girls thought that it was a ridiculous amount of punishment.

Second: @David - if your going to try to throw it in my face, you should probably think about the fact that it was a grammar error, not a spelling error. So I can spell just fine thank you.

and to the rest of you, miss use of the word their is a little different to misspelling the word stupidity when ranting about a bunch of high school girls.

Rob68 your the moron, if nothing else then because you had nothing productive to add to that conversation. At least the other two made fun of me, your just the idiot lacky.

should not** apply to harmless fun. my bad.

I've caught another couple of mistakes-- 3 times you used "your" instead of "you're", misuse is one word with one "s" and lackey is spelled with an "e". Have you ever heard of spell check?

G...I give you props...You came back even after looking like a horse's patoot...

And in his defense Elizabeth, spell check only looks for mispellings...Not improper use of words...

Misspelling and incorrect grammar are equal....And I only poke fun at hypocrites like you.....

The last part was for GMoney Elizabeth, not you.

g- who says what is harmless and what is not? YOU?!?! that makes me laugh!!! Thats why the law says NO hazing PERIOD! Get over yourself and deal with it, it is the LAW!

Ok I suck at grammar but you gotta give it to me misspelling stupidity is pretty bad when trying to make an argument.

And spell check on this thing sucks anyways, it tried to tell me a whole sentence was misspelled but claiming it as one word.

@Samiam - they did you idiot. If the people it's happening to are fighting for the people that did it and saying its ridiculous then I think it's safe for me to say that it's harmless fun. I believe I made that clear in my last post. So how about you get off your high horse and deal with it. I don't think you can consider a law broken if the girls it happened to are even saying it wasnt hazing.

I agree G....It tried to tell me that I misspelled "ok"....I'm not sure what the other way to spell it is?

And it can be considered a law broken if it is a law on the books, which I think it is...And if the girls didn't know then it is the school's fault for not making them aware.

I think that technically it is spelled okay but if you look it up it says ok is another spelling so who knows.

And I know that it is in the book as a law but there is two things to be said about that. If no one feels like they have been hazed can it still be looked at as such? and also within the law does it specify what is concidered hazing? Because if all it says is "No Hazing" then where can the line be drawn? Are we going to be arguing about this all over again next week because some school official sees a basketball teammate do somthing stupid like flick an ear one time and they both laugh about it and that official still feels like its hazing and they get suspended for that? I think a good comparison would be if a husband steels his wifes car before christmas because he baught her a new one, are you going to have him thrown in jail for grand theft auto just because technically its in the law as such?

How are you going to compare an ear flick to dog collars? Is that your reality? If you want to know specifically what the law says figure it out. Don't be lazy asking others to find out for you. Also technically a husband cannot STEAL (correct spelling by the way) his wife's car at most it would be considered unauthorized use. FYI he would have BOUGHT her a new one. (I know that it is hard to spell when you are worried about pushing your way through conversations instead of taking an objective look at things.)

First of all you, ignorant @!$%#er, I was not comparing the two I was merely pointing out where to draw the line, so lets put our big kid ears on and pay attention to whats actually being said.

Second if you want to argue the law with me then you look it up, I am saying that it merely says hazing is illegal and does not specify to what severity it must go so if you want to prove me wrong then be my guest and look it up yourself.

Third if he did not buy the car and it is not in his name then it would be grand theft auto, taking things that are not yours is STEELING (i'll say it however the hell I want)

Fourth if i gav too shts abut how my speling is i wood have asked, as u can sea i dont give to @!$%#s so stop pointing it out.

And to bring it home with the haymaker

If a law was broken and the freshmen it happened to were really that hurt by it then I don't think that Mr. White, the lawyer father of one of the freshman girls, would not have said and I quote, "The consequences of the investigation were infinitely more harmful than anything that any of these kids went through," he said. He told the news station the incident was more of a teambuilding exercise gone wrong than it was hazing. So as you can see I don't think that I'm wrong is saying that the law is being taken a little to seriously in this case.

You do realize that name calling is the calling card of the truly UNEDUCATED! ha ha ha!

BTW if you beleive every word that comes from a lawyers mouth that is defending his client(who has no right to sue) then I would like to offer you, my uneducated friend, the brooklyn bridge for the low prce of $20,000. Interested? :)

lol do you realize that your alligation holds no water and name calling has nothing to do with how educated you are?

and really do you read anything that I say or do you, like truely uneducated people, just pick and choose what you read? I said it was the father of one of the freshman that was "hazed" and he happens to be a lawyer. So I think if anyone was going to use that law to sue the senior girls or get them into trouble it would be him. Learn to read.

Again you cannot read the father Mr.White has filed an injunction against the school i.e. filed suit and he is acting as a lawyer not a father. How would he know what happened unless he was there which makes him an irresponsible parent just like the coach. Read the article my uneducated friend and I would quote to you the many studies on the relation between resorting to foul mouthed name calling and being uneducated but you would probably get confused and start to drool. Have a nice night! hahahahahaha

How you canhold on to the idea that he would defend the "attackers of his daughter" because he is a lawyer is just plain stupid.

Chicity- where did I say defend the attackers? I only mentioned he is defending his client(daughter). Everyone on this vine knows that you are a troll trying to stir things up.

Samiam, everything I have said, so far, has turned out to be correct. Why would he have to defend his daughter/client when she was the alleged victim? That doesn't make sense, not even at all. If you want to look at her as his client, he would be attacking the culprits, not defending them.

He filed an injuction because he feels they are being unfairly punished. If he had any problem whatsoever with it, do you really think he would be defending his daughters attackers?

I'm not a troll, as I have stayed on point. You just appear to be a little challenged in understanding the relationship between a lawyer, a so called victim, and their "attacker". A lawyer of a victim doesn't defend the attacker. Good luck to you, I get the feeling you will need it.

Obviously you have not stayed on point so I will ask again where did I state he was defending the attackers? Show me where it says in my post that exact line?

When you claim he was acting as a lawyer, not a father, you make the case that he is defending the attackers because he is an attorney. In filing an injunction to prevent the girls from being suspended, it is impossible to come to any conclusion other than he is defending the "attackers". Your words: "Again you cannot read the father Mr.White has filed an injunction against the school i.e. filed suit and he is acting as a lawyer not a father.".

He filed an injunction to prevent the "attackers" from being suspended. If that isn't defending them, I don't know what is. Further, if he felt his daughter had been victimized, he obviously woudn't come to the defense of the "attackers". This is so obvious I can't believe it has taken 5 explanations for you to understand.

One of victims wound up with a bloody nose from the pie. Also, visible marks were left on the girls' neck. Yes, the girls went along with it, but if my daughter came home with a bloody nose and marks around her neck I would complain too.

I am sorry but have you ever played or watched soccer? If you didn't have marks or a bloody lip or bruises from playing then you were on the bench and not in the game.

STACY,

Nobody was playing football(soccer). It was illegal hazing. Period! Learn how to read and understand what happened.

Really? They are teenage girls in high school, and even the ones that had it done to them are not bothered by it. You know why, because if this hadn't happened, then those girls would get to do their own ritual in the following years. Everyone's mischevious in high-school, and we all had our own little rituals--we rolled people's houses every year! But it wasn't bullying at all, we did it to our friends' houses as a sort of, 'Hey! Happy Homecoming! We like you!' If it's all in good spirit, and they're not actually hurting one another, who cares?! If you have to punish them for doing it on school property, throw them in detention for a few days. Don't ruin their sports/college careers. I mean, we still let Micheal Vick play football...

Michael Vick should NOT have been allowed to play. Pat them on the head and say your sports career is more inportant than how you treat people. Not where I live.

This is an important hard news story of importance to the Nation. Thanks for bringing this crisis to our attention. We must diligently act to see that "dog-leashing" never ever happens again anywhere!

Just a point of clarification, but they only said ONE of the girls said she was ok with what happened. Not all of them. And do you think there's not a lot of social pressure being put on them to SAY it was all done in fun? Whether it was or not.

Robert Duckworth, Michael Vick? Are you serious? You obviously never played a team sport (your squad of dungeons and dragons doesn't count).

So, you were OK with Vick fighting dogs? I guess sexual harrasment is OK in your book too.

I don't know if you're commenting to me or ChiCity, but I am def NOT ok with Vick fighting dogs! I use the point to illustrate how these things should be taken on a case-by-case basis!!

Of course I have a problem with Vick fighting dogs. I have two, and both donate and volunteer at PAWS (the humane society in Chicago). It's the leap you made from this harmless act of what I consider teambuilding, to Michael Vick. He has nothing to do with this. If you want to talk about Vick, take it somewhere else. It has nothing to do with this.

Pie? Blindfolds? Dog leash? Oh, the Humanity!

Chi - I sure as hell don't want to work with you if you consider leading people around on dog leashes as 'team building'!!

No worries, I'm not hiring.

Bluto II, When you put it that way it sounds like a bar I went to in Tijuana during a bachelor party.

ChiCity...Your Dungeons and Dragons joke wasn't funny when you tried it on me and it sure isn't funny if you keep using it....

We don't know, but I'm sure these girls were not "dragged around". They probably led them around on all fours. I have gone through real hazing, college sports and fraternity. I was never hurt doing it, and I developed a bond with my teammates and fraternity brothers as a result. I wouldn't take any of it back. I understand when it goes too far, or people are hurt. That just doesn't seem the case here. People need to toughen up.

C'mon. You have a much greater chance at serious physical or psychological injury playing in the normal bounds of soccer. Or probably in walking down the street. If we as a society are to use the "possibility of injury" as a litmus test for whether something is acceptable, then we would not have any contact sports. Never mind that we would never have tried to explore space, fly planes, etc.

Hazing is a tough subject, because there is a fine line where pranks go out of control. But I would argue that some limited degree is not a problem, and probably even carries some benefits in fostering team unity (i.e. the knowledge that everyone has endured some similar ordeal).

In any case, this sounds like however it is resolved, it will be another clearcut victory for the lawyers since undoubtedly they will suggest lawsuits that target the school, the coach, the team, the players who committed the acts, the players who failed to stop the acts, etc.

ChiCity:

Perhaps all this hazing you have endured that you are bragging about has affected your mind?

If by affected my mind you mean that I am a successful member of my community, active with charities, happily married, have many good friends, about to have a child with my wife- then you are correct. I don't think I am god's gift by any means, but most people would be lucky to have as good a life as I do.

I call B.S. All this "well I was hazed but now I feel like part of the team... we're family now." I was on track - no hazing - still we have very close friendship which came from omg TIME with each other. My boyfriends frat hazed him and guess how many of his "brothers" he's still besties with? None. You don't need hazing to feel a part of something, and its absurd to defend it. By the way, my family would never treat me like that.

ChiCity - I don't doubt that you are happy and fine now and live a good life. That being said do you want you child to be dragged around a field, blindfolded by their throat to play a sport? I would imagine all the time that has passed since you were hazed has clouded some of the memories. The hazers just try to convince you it happens to all of them- doesn't mean you like it, you are just brainwashed to accept it.

Taylor, I'm not surprised that no hazing occured in girls track. It is for the most part, an individual sport. Would I want my child "dragged around by her throat"? No. Is that what happened here? No.

I feel sorry your bf doesn't maintain friendships with his frat buddies. I do, and nearly everyone I know from a fraternity does as well. Time has not "clouded" my judgement. Those years were the funnest of my life. I would do it all over again. Don't make this more than it was. No one was dragged around by the throat, no one was hurt. If they were dragged around by the throat, someone would have been hurt.

Five soccer players at a Needham, Mass., high school have been suspended after accusations of blindfolding younger teammates and dragging the girls along the field with dog leashes.

I may be going out on a limb here, but I think the leash was around the neck and touching their throat. That's just how I assumed leashes work. And I'm glad you had the funnest time in college - obviously never attending a grammar class.

Taylor, I have two dogs. The leash goes around their neck, I don't drag them, I lead them. Maybe MSNBC made a sensationalistic headline to grab readers attention.

I am typing here at work, without any real care or attention to grammar. If you want to compare academic credentials I would be happy, but is besides the point.

I had the most fun ever in college. Better? I am biting my tongue at all the funny personal jabs I could take here, but that would only detract from my argument. Good luck to you. If you have kids, don't shelter them too much.

chi,

And not actually working? and you take their pay??

David, I am an owner in the business, not that it is any of yours.

We don't know, but I'm sure these girls were not "dragged around".

If we don't know than how can you be sure??

Because a much bigger deal would have been made, someone would have been injured. A student at the school said in an interview that the worst thing that happened was, "a girl got pie on her boot". The girl was bought another pair of boots by the offending party. Sounds pretty rough to me.

You keep saying "I'm sure more will come out on this" yet say that if someone would have been hurt more would have come out...Which one is it Chi??

More will come out about the specifics of the act, as it has become a national story. I iamgine it will be reported later today or tomorrow as a follow up. If someone had been hurt, we would have already heard about it. They are not mutually exclusive. Does that clear things up for you as you try to nit pick semantics since you don't really have a point?

From a linguistics standpoint, I don't think you are up to the challenge.

Taylor, I have two dogs. The leash goes around their neck, I don't drag them, I lead them. Maybe MSNBC made a sensationalistic headline to grab readers attention

ChiCity, do you blindfold your dogs? The article also said the girls were blindfolded when being "dragged". Hard to follow someone when you can't see, so there would obviously be a little tugging on the leash to get them to follow.

Chi....Oh not the "I'm smarter than you and you are not up to my verbal challenge"....You are the one who is talking themselves in circles...You've put yourself out there as if you know so much about this, but I'm not sure how.....Ego?? Narcissism? Boredom? Thinking you're all that and a bag of Sun Chips?? Not sure.....

I am not speaking in circles. Maybe there are too many issues being raised, and you are confused. Nothing I said contradicted anything else.

JR- I'm aware of the title of the article, and what MSNBC wrote. I have also read several other accounts, including quotes from local publications, and girls that were present. Not a single mention of anyone being "dragged". That's probably why they have come forward to say that people are blowing this way out of proportion.

What do you know, look what just hit the internet. The parents of the alleged victims, and what they have to say: http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/12002712402780/parents-of-alleged-hazing-victims-speak-out/

Rob are you going to have the humility to read this link, and admit I was right? More did come out, no one was hurt. Excited to see how you all spin this one.

Ok..So you were right...I have no problem saying that...I'm not an ego driven person...Big difference between you and I in that regards....I don't shoot off at the mouth as if I know things and then parade it around just because in that instance I was right...You on the other hand have proven the type you are....But yes my lord you were right in this case....Doesn't mean they kids weren't wrong to do it....

ChiCity, since you seem to be much closer to the situation than most of the others on here, does anyone know who reported the "initiation ceremony" to the authorities?

BTW, I tend to agree with your assessment that the article may be overdramatizing the incident - especially if the girls were not "dragged" as the article mentions.

However, I'm also aware that what people say publicly is not necessarily the same thing they would say behind closed doors, so while some may say publicly that it was no big deal, they may privately feel that it was. Not saying that's the case in this instance, because I have absolutely no "inside info" on any of this.

Rob, shooting off at the mouth? No, that would imply something I said was incorrect. That's not the case. I would say you were shooting off at the mouth in your crusade to save these poor girls. I get the feeling a lot of people on this thread were the victims of bullying, and were operating from a personal and emotional place. Meanwhile, I was pragmatic and even tempered.

JR, isn't it most likely that it was through word of mouth. Again, looking at the different students who were interviewed, it was probably through word of mouth. I am not any closer to this situation. I was an athlete who went through these same types of scenarios. After one such event my senior year in high school, when I returned to school the next morning, people were talking about it. Everything gets around in a high school enviornment.

Without morals?!?!? Are you serious??? Overreactive people like you are the problem here....you would hang these kids out to dry for a stupid thing like this.....I'm far more worried about zero tolerance, zero common sense folks like you and the atmosphere you create.

Agreed, 2wylde. I bet these are good girls who took pride in their team, went through it themselves, saw the benefit, and continued the practice. There is a difference between dangerous hazing, and embarassing traditions that build comradery between teammates. I bet most were actually proud to go through the ritual. People these days are just so soft.

When a parent thinks more about the sports their children are playing than about the possible abuse they may have suffered by teammates you have parents who never should have kids. They are thinking more of themselves than their kids no matter how they try to frame it.

OK, but where do you draw the line? In this case it must have been serious enough for someone to eventually report. The school has a huge liability here and in all of these cases. If a kid gets injured all these parents, and yes even the ones screaming about how its all in fun would have their s lawyers running rampant all over the school. And who pays for the lawsuit? We do, as well as the teachers and administrators deemed responsible.

The school had no option. The law was broken. The coach was responsible and did not handle the situation properly.

It's funny 'til someone loses an eye!

2Wylde4U,

I am sure you like your kids to bully others and you take pride in defending your kids.

Bhavi, I bet your kids get bullied.

Another fine example of "zero tolerance" being enforced by "zero intelligence"!

If any of you read the article it wasnt actually the parents of the 'culprits'. It was the parents of the kids who were supposedly hazed that were asking the court to grant an injunction. When you learn to actually read your opinion will matter much more. I wish I could strip all 12 thumbs up from this article based on pure ignorance and inability to comprehend sentences! The original author should be banned from ever commenting on articles to deal with hazing and the people who clicked thumbs up should be put down or at the very least no longer allowed to pro-create. Sensibility has spoken!

I think that some people are confusing hazing with bullying. I think that Gregovich makes a point in that, if you do the crime, you should do the time, so to speak. However, I do not think that the girls accused of hazing should be sent to prison, that is definately overkill, this should be handled by the school with some form of suspension. I beleive that is what the parents of the students and even some of the victims are saying. I don't think that kids, or parents, are any softer, on the other hand I think that in some ways, school is tougher than it used to be and teachers, fearing lawsuits, don't step in anymore to prevent situations from going to far and parents, who are detached from their kids, don't discipline them so that you get kids who don't know when to stop.

From the article (are you able comprehend this sensible1?)

On Tuesday, the suspended girls' parents went to court seeking an injunction that would allow the girls to play in Tuesday night's state tournament match

JR, read this article, and see if you still have a comment. This recently hit the web, a local story:

http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/12002712402780/parents-of-alleged-hazing-victims-speak-out/

It's right there. All the parents on the team, and players, are in agreement. Maybe we should listen to bleeding hearts on this vine who were probably bullied as kids, over those actually involved though. You are all so benevolent to look out for these poor victims in Needham, Mass.

JR-350531.... Read the first two paragraphs under the header 'A Teambuilding Exercise' then tell me who cant comprehend... It is morons like you that should be put down the most violent gruesome way. Not out of any personal hatred towards you I just have a HIGH intolerance for ignorance. JR you are one dumb cookie...

sensible1 - I quoted a section of the MSNBC article that this thread is based on (and folks are commenting on) and you point to another article as basis for calling me out. Perhaps before calling everyone else stupid you should re-read the original article which is the basis for this Newsvine thread.

From the MSNBC article:

On Tuesday, the suspended girls' parents went to court seeking an injunction that would allow the girls to play in Tuesday night's state tournament match

The article also says the girls were "dragged" across the field which was the basis for my original comment early in the thread.

Pretty obvious who should be put down, as you seem to have a high tolerance for violence, like a mad dog, but they probably don't do that on planet jack.a.s.s where you're from.

JR, do you understand the idea of sensational headlines to grab readers? Upon further reading, it is clear no one was dragged around by their neck. After a little extra research, this has been supported in interviews of the children involved, and parents on both sides.

So, given that there was no real violence here, where do you make the leap that sensible1 has an appetite for violence?

ChiCity, did you read his posts? Like I mentioned before, I agree with your assertion that the article overly dramatizes the event. I was merely pointing out to sensible1 the basis for my original post (since the article does mention the girls were "dragged") and also pointing out that the article specifically mentions that the parents of the suspended players went to court seeking an injunction to let them play. This after sensible1 insults everyone who read the article and made comments that he didn't agree with. Portions of his posts are quoted below.

It is morons like you that should be put down the most violent gruesome way. Not out of any personal hatred towards you I just have a HIGH intolerance for ignorance. JR you are one dumb cookie

When you learn to actually read your opinion will matter much more. I wish I could strip all 12 thumbs up from this article based on pure ignorance and inability to comprehend sentences! The original author should be banned from ever commenting on articles to deal with hazing and the people who clicked thumbs up should be put down or at the very least no longer allowed to pro-create.

JR, I don't agree with him insulting anyone. I think it's important to point out though it was the parents on both sides seeked the injunction.

With the way the parents acted, I don't think these girls learned anything except that people have no tolernace for mistakes and if anything they have no clear idea what the point of all this is

Rush2112

Its a tradition, nobody got hurt. If this effects any of these girls future, that would be the real crime.

You mean if their actions effects their future it would be a crime? Im having troubles seeing if you are blaming the school or someone elsenhere.

Welcome to personal responsibility ladies - enjoy!

Whether anyone got hurt or not is not the issue. It was a crime. My son has played soccer since he was 5 and now as a sophomore in college and I'll tell you what, if he had participated in anything like this, he wouldn't need the school, the state or anyone else to punish him. I would. He is responsible for his own actions and these girls should have thought better about their actions. Hazing is not to make people think they are accepted, it is a juvenile way to make people feel inferior and to make the agressors feel superior. It wasn't OK "back then" and it's not OK today. We were just too stupid to do anything about it "back then". If their collee careers are hurt by these actions, then so be it. They deserve to learn what their actions can cause and MAYBE it will be a lesson learned.

Welcome to scared, overprotective where completely unnecessary, trying to look out for their own behindsin worrying some lame lawsuit will arise, era of public administration.

Yeah and I bet you would also be saying it was the girls on the leashes fault if by being blind and drug around they fell and BROKE THEIR NECK. Yeah it's not the people doing the hazings fault the girl got injured but the girl who couldn't maintain balance while blindfolded.

I am amazed how how little the people who think this was a good thing think things through. No wonder we have so many reports of bullying in schools anymore. The parents are instilling a lack of common sense in their children because the parents HAVE NONE.

What are you talking about? More will come out on this story, but I would bet my house (mortgage paid off), that the girls were led around, not dragged, as a type of show. I coach a kids hockey team, and just from knowing the parents, it is no surprise to me which kids are timid and quick to cry, because their overprotective parents baby the heck out of them. This generation of kids are so ill-equipped to handle tough situations because no one ever takes off the baby gloves. I will be the first to speak out against anything that puts kids in danger, but this is really too much.

Troll Warning. Massive troll spotted (ChiCity). Please do not feed.

I don't know how I am going to sleep tonight, my feelings are just so hurt... If you have kids, cut the cord, they will be ok.

chi- I've read what you've posted and here is a big cheesburger for ya !! I think you are spot on, i'll feed ya

bhavi_jp

Troll Warning. Massive troll spotted (ChiCity). Please do not feed.

Trolling is posting off-topic material of no value to the discussion at hand. Frequently, trolls use inflammatory statements or personal attacks and name-calling on other posters.

Please see example @ #10.5

"It's a tradition", it is also tradition to give detention or suspension to those who break the rules.

For as off-putting as ChiCity can be, he has a point. I think punishment should be served for how little the girls throught through this initiation, but the punishment they received is a little excessive.

I hope a deal can be worked out so the girls pay their dues and have this expunged from their permanent records.

And the rest of the world would do good to rub a little dirt in their "wounds"

Actually - you cant pick and choose what aspects of your childhood to apply here. when you were younger - parents supported their teachers an school - now all they want to do is sue them and complain how their kids arent bad / stupid / at fault ad nauseum.

When you were in school - there were winners and loser - now a days - Everyone wins! Also - if some little kid on the team would have stepped out - they would have gotten smacked around by older team mates - now a days that doesnt happen.

Things have changed substantially since you were a kid. And not for the better.

So if you had a teenage daughter and she was blindfolded and dragged around on a dogleash by her team mates, you would have no problem with that? What if the if the team were co-ed and she was being dragged around on a leash by a boy? Would that be ok? Would you call them team players?

If you want to know why kids are whiny little brats today, here is a great example.

Hazing is illegal and against school policy. Girls soccer team breaks the rule and as punishment is suspended from playing (and really this isn't the World Cup here). Mommy and Daddy come to their rescue saying 'Oh, but she's really such an angel' and sues the school so their precious little angel can play in the big game. No consequences. In my day, I would have gotten an a** kicking if my parents found out I was dragging girls around a soccer field on a dog leash. And we wonder why kids today have no morals?! Just look to the parent driving the get away car!

Mutts,

A Big AMEN. Thanks!

Kids are mean. The end. And as a parent, all I can do is raise MY child - I can't raise anyone else's. So I realize that my daughter is going to experience the result of bad (in my mind) parenting as she interacts with other kids in school. I think the larger issue here is accountability...and that comes from parenting. At a MINIMUM, parents need to teach their kids that they are accountable for their actions. No parent can hang out at school all day and patrol their kid's behavior...so when that kid decides to do something that could bring some consequences, they need to know how to recognize the potential consequence(s) from their actions. If they do something wrong, and get caught, then they need to be held accountable. In this case, their actions were classified as "hazing"...and because there is a rule/law against that, consequences exist for those who "break" that rule/law. It's that simple. It's not about whether you agree that "hazing" itself is right or wrong - in this case the judgment on that has been made by the State and school - it's about teaching your kid that if they screw up, they need to deal with the fallout. Having lived in MA for 13 years I can tell you that people (especially in Eastern MA) spoil the hell out of their kids and many people have an undeserved sense of entitlement that they've passed on to their kids. This is a perfect example of parents not doing their job. The article could have been about kids throwing rocks thru school windows and the parents still would have come up with some lame excuse as to why their kids shouldn't be punished.

I'm sorry, but your comment "anyone who has played sports had has to deal with this type of team building, is what separates the strong from the weak and in sports ONLY THE STRONG SURVIVE" could not be more incorrect.

Our daughter played ball.....for 13 years, spring, summer, winter and fall.....she played AAU as well. She was part of a championship team in HS, one who went to the championship 3 times.....there was NO bullying, NO hazing, it was a team full of STRONG kids, with GOOD parents, GOOD coaches and a great athletic director who ALL held each other to the HIGHEST standard. I will never forget playing a team in another state during AAU, those girls bullied ours to the point 2 were in tears.....you know what the coach told them after "this was a good lesson of playing dirty and playing clean...we play clean, they played dirty" they all learned a lesson......it's best to play clean, and lose the came than play dirty and win.

All of the kids on her team are now in college, some still playing ball....not one of them would THINK of hazing, or bullying.....it's simply unacceptable. You get ON the team for the way you PLAY.....

erika -

From your post, it sounds like you either know way too much about your daughter's experience, or you think that you know more about it than you do. While I certainly cannot comment on your relationship with your daughter, it does sound suspect that she would tell you everything.

In any case, how can you state with 100% conviction that there was 0 hazing, etc?

I have the personal anecdotal experience of playing on many teams at the club, high school and collegiate level. Some were bad, some were good, some were champions. Personally, I experienced a degree of "hazing" on all of these teams. I also know that some players on our teams were not subject to any such hazing because it was predicted by the 'hazers' that they would squeal or not be able to handle it. Maybe my experience is different, but it's the truth.

I agree with your sentiments that you play clean, win or lose, but I don't think that hazing detracts from that message.

They should limit the "hazing" to walking hand in hand around the track while singing the school song. But wait, a person could fall in a sinkhole or get hit by a falling airplane wheel, so maybe not.

You haven't seen moms with leashes on their kids at the mall? What's the difference? Do you go up and tell the mom that she is demeaning her child or do you come home and write some rant?

outnumbered: Could you have come up with a more ridiculous comparison? Putting a dog leash on a fellow teammate and dragging them up and down a field is intended to humiliate that person and make someone else feel stronger. When my son was little we used the "leash"...it was a little monkey backpack with a tail I could hold onto. We used it as a form of safety. It allowed him to walk on his own and have some freedom while allowing his father and I to keep a close eye on him. My son is outgoing and there were several times he tried to dart away from us, because children that small don't have the ability to see ramifications of unsafe actions. Also, the "leash" you use for children is a five point harness secured around the child's torso, not a dog leash around their throat. Big difference.

Vicousrumors,

would it have made a difference if the soccer players were in 5-point harnesses? Leashing up kids or soccer players is all the same, it's about control.

outnumbered: It's apparent that you simply don't grasp the concept here. It may be about control, but they're different types of control. One is used to help prevent things like small children darting out into traffic or a crowded parking lot, or protect them from getting lost in a crowded area. The other was used a means to exert dominance over a group of people. There is a huge difference between the two situations. No one would ever allow a parent to place an actual dog collar around a child's neck and lead them around the mall on all fours. No one would be allowed to hire you on at a company and then proceed to "initiate" you by humiliating you. Why should these girls be allowed to do so? The very fact that they attempted to hide their actions speaks volumes. Even they knew that what they were doing wouldn't be condoned.

Amen and Thank you Bill

Well said!

Thank you Bill.

It's nice to hear from a TRUE athlete -- not a keyboard wannabe.

I too was a college athlete. There was no hazing involved on my teams either ... the coach would not have stood for it! She was MUCH more concerned that we keep our mind on our business. Besides, hazing can lead to injury and THAT'S not something a college coach wants to deal with. Bad enough when it happens in a game.

I too was a college athlete, hockey, and we did have "hazing". More will come out on this story, but I would bet that there was never even any tension on the leashes. Rather, they were paraded around on all fours. PC has gone wild, and everyone is looking out for their own backside with all the bogus lawyering that occurs daily.

Well said Bill.

Wow, voice of reason Bill. Way to go.

Very well stated, Bill.

No one can ever demonstrate that hazing has had any benefit for any sports team or anything else.

Tell that to the military. They use it to the extreme to build comradery.

Being in the military and being on a high school soccer team are two totally different things.

Of course they are. The tactics are also employed at different levels of intensity. The point holds true though. Going through these experiences with your peers, and getting through it together, builds comradery. One is certainly more extreme, but it doesn't make the comparison any less true.

Chicity- What point that seems to elude you is the fact that the military uses professionally TRAINED individuals to carry out the tactics. These girls were just a bunch of snot nosed brats getting their rocks off humiliating others. BIG DIFFERENCE between the two.

ChiCity,

Having served in the Air Force for 21 years, I can say I was never hazed, nor did I see any hazing...not even in basic training. If you screwed up, you were punished accordingly; i.e. latrine duty, night marches, push ups, kp, etc.....the intention was consequence and action, not to humiliate or degrade. Military training benefits the group, hazing benefits the hazer at the expense of the hazee.....Comparing the training of the military to hazing rituals is like comparing apples to tires....

Oh please, college coaches look into situations like this? Sorry Bill NJ former bball player, I disagree. Basketball players at my alma mater, one of the most expensive private universities in the country, didn't even have to take the SATs to get a spot on the squad, they cheated in school, and had private tutors do their work for them. So want to preach about instilling moral values, you should be preaching to the coaches and faculty who have a generous salary and could care less about what a kid's track record is as long as they win championships.

If you think I'm BSing about the above statement, I too was a D1 female soccer player, nationally recognized school, full ride, a recent graduate ... Parents can instill whatever "moral habits" they want into their children...my parents did. Did I get "hazed", yes. Did I participate in "hazing", yes. It's a tradition - fraternities and sororities participate in the same thing, but that never makes national headlines. And I've seen what they go through and it's a lot more horrific than a pie in the face...

I had to parade around in a very busy, popular city blindfolded with shaving cream and silly string all over my body - As a freshman what do I do, make everyone stop and say 'it's not moral'? What would you all do? We made the best of it and were good sports; in fact, we still reminisce and joke about it to this day.

Granted our "hazing," if you even want to call it that, was fairly PG - But what if you were part of a team that blindfolded you, ordered you to drink stale beer from a dirty soccer cleat, and run in a conditioning drill until you puked? Would you honestly be disappointed in yourself if your team made its first NCAA appearance in school history after beating the #1 ranked university in the country to get there? (True story).

This was a "tradition" as silly as it may sound to most of you other than ChiCity. This tradition has probably gone on for years, and it's unfortunate this senior class had to get suspended. If this was really a serious matter, why would the new girls on the team be coming forward saying that this hazing in no way affected them emotionally or physically. These girls took a pie to the face and had to wear a dog collar for a minute of laughs... I'd take that hazing any day over let's say preseason college soccer or getting verbally abused by your coach. Now that will hurt you physically and take a toll on you mentally....and I'm a stronger person today for it.

Hey sarge...They're both round....Kind of.....

The hazing starts usually because some irresponsible parent, the dad, tells their children about the hazing they did to other kids while in school. They make it sound fun and acceptable. Always look to the parent of the kid causing the problems as that is where you will find the root cause. The sad part is they are usually too narcissistic to realize this.

Not true, sandy. I'm guessing you never played serious athletics. The rituals began many years ago, and are passed down from team to team. Most are actually proud to be a part of it.

so Patricia - let me get this straight...

You do not condone hazing, and preach "if you kick one leg out from under a table, the whole table will fall". Demeaning a team member DOES NOT build team spirit, it creates a Totem-pole effect, with the younger and newer players on the bottom. I put the blame squarely on the PARENTS. Especially since these parents still don't see the DAMAGE that's been done. Children who are abused in this way feel powerless"

but then go on to say that you "would have cold-cocked the first kid who abused either of my children in this way."

So it's the parents fault that any hazing is done, but the solution if you kids were hazed would be to beat up the kids doing the hazing? Wow...

I see a little bit of hypocrisy here...

Kevin, I think I understand. Patricia strikes me as the type that will shelter her kids up to the day they are adults, at which point they will be unable to stand on their own two feet.

and I would have cold-cocked the first kid who abused either of my children in this way. . . . The abused will become the abuser, with a vengenance [sic]. And it won't necessarily be just on the playing field or in the locker room. The anger and rage will spill over into their daily lives.

Hahahahaha.

Patricia, I agree. My teenage son has been playing soccer in a competitive league and there has never been any hazing. My son would be FURIOUS if he was forced to participate in a demeaning ritual in order to be part of the team. Choosing to join an athletic team shouldn't require kids to relinquish their dignity and safety.

Hazing is a stupid thing to do, period. And those that keep defending a stupid ritual are, wellllllllll...........stupid.

You hit the nail on the head, I am stupid. I hope all the people I work with don't figure that out.

chi,

The boss will. and glad you finally admitted your intelligence level. no person on my staff spends time "talking on e-mails" during work hours.

Well David, good thing I am a principal of the company. I was going to cut out early to go play golf, but I'm having too much fun riling up all the people here.

It isn't about being above anyone. It builds comradery, and a sense of pride. I have been through it. My high school hockey team won the state championship nearly every year I was there. Each year, the new members of the team had their head shaved, in all sorts of funny waysm by a current team member. We were also forced to carry all team gear, were paraded around school in ridiculous outfits, etc. It built team loyalty.

In college hockey, it went further. In my fraternity, it went even further. I cherish those rituals I endured, as it truly made me a part of not only the team, but the history of the team/fraternity and a member of the larger team/group. Let's stop the dangerous actions of the few, without lumping everything into this bogus, blanketed zero tolerance garbage.

ChiCity:

I see.
So being made to feel like an idiot made you feel good?? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

In a way, it was a badge of honor. Tell the armed forces to be nicer to the people they train. It is a more extreme analogy, but true none the less. It creates comradery, pure and simple.

ChiCity -- What if a new member of the team did not WANT their head to be shaved? Were they allowed to say "no"?

One kid did, and we found a suitable substitute for him. Did it say anywhere in this article that these girls couldn't say no?

ChiCity-- at least twice, you have brought the military into this. I was a high school athlete (football) and former Marine. Certainly I endured rough treatment and physical punishment, but I was never hazed. You clearly don't know the difference.

Marine Drill Instructors are the most professional military trainers you will ever find and there is no place for abuse in their regimen. Running and push-ups make you stronger and faster; what does wearing a dog collar do? It demeans, humiliates, debases. It doesn't in any way make you a better Marine, soldier, frat brother, soccer player, or human being. There's the difference.

Hazing is properly condemned by coaches, trainers, and educators. Everybody, starting with the "what's the big deal" parents, should get on board.

Peace

Mike

ChiCity---- Leave the armed forces out of this, you could never and would never understand us. I dont believe you try to compare someone who is trained for war to some kid trained to play a sport. I agree with other's, your Frat days have you brainwashed, and if you for one second believe that "GIRLS" will not drag another girl around, not just gently direct another girl around while she is on a leash, you have apparently never been around inner city Girls including the girls in the Boston area. I grew up with both

If you day so. I was not a Marine, my dad was a captain. I just called him and read your response, and others here. He laughed. Really, this whole situation is laughable.

Woops, say so

Chi....I can assume your father is maybe in his 70's?? Older?? Big difference back then to now...Of course your father would laugh because DIs back then DID hit and shove and strike soldiers.....Now they don't....So since it happened back then we should all be ok with it now...hmm...Cool...So do you still think non-whites should use different bathrooms?? Water fountains?? Do you still think that women are inferior and have no place in the work place?? I mean it used to happen back then, right??

Again, your giant leaps totally discredit you. To somehow try and make this completely flawed analogy speaks volume to your ability to debate an issue.

He is 60, but was in the marines after undergrad, and a masters in math, before business school. That put him there in the 70's, but again, that is besides the point. There is no arguing with someone that is just so far out in left field.

Your logic is so flawed, I don't even know where to begin. Rob, if you do have kids, I seriously fear for them when they get older.

See...this is the type of person that you are...Instead of just disagreeing with someone insult the family......You completely jumped the shark and missed my point about when your father was in.......But it's not knew.....To you your opinion is all that matters and everyone else has is flawed logic.....I'd rather be out in left field with my head held high than in the dugout with my head stuck in my ass.....

In your eyes, you are wrong, but have your integrity. I am right, and have mine... Where would I rather be?

I'd have my integrity either way...I am not ego driven to feel the need to always be right....If I always thought that I'd be just like you...And if I am wrong from time to time it means I am still learning...You on the other hand must know everything there is to know...

I'd rather be where I am.....

Sounds like sour grapes to me. I have stayed on this topic, turned out to be right, and you make the leap that I am ego driven and constantly feel the need to be right? No, I asserted myself here because I was confident I was right. If I didn't, I wouldn't have opened my mouth. Nice try, but you know nothing about me other than the fact that in this case, I was right and my arguments refuted yours. Sorry. Have a nice day.

You have a nice day as well..And don't forget about Golf today...Hate to have you miss it again for our sake......

Thanks. I'm going to try to get 9 in this afternoon.

Very jealous of you.....No golf here for on account its only about 35 right now....That and don't think the boss would like it....Having your own compnay has its perks I bet =o)