Not surprised at all about this. They do know the parts that suit them and help with their lives and the tools to condemn others. I call them armchair christians. Picking the parts of the bible that they don't have to adhere to and to condemn lets say GAYS! But when confronted that it isn't their place to do so they get defensive but according to their bible a sin is a sin is a sin. So being so, them judging others makes them as sinful as I and will be joining me in their own hell. TATA!

And I beleive religion now days, any religion is and has caused more problems than it solves. Look at all the problems we have today in this world, ALL caused my religions. Christians are no better than muslims. Christians going around the world passing around their bible, muslims goin around the world condemning the none believers, they are all bad.

Christians differ from moslems in that they pass around Bibles while some Moslems pass around bombs to any one who disagrees with them.

Christians differ from moslems in that they pass around Bibles while some Moslems pass around bombs to any one who disagrees with them.

@jackie-385987: Don't be such a child.

Obviously, they forgot to quiz Jehovah's Witnesses.

That is because JDubs have their own Bible.

jackie, most Mormons are knowledgeable about Mormon heaven. They are not, for instance, knowledgeable about the Jewish version of heaven, just like they are of the opinion that they practice the Solomonic rites in their temples. Since the "Solomonic rites" could only be done at the Temple in Jerusalem and involved sacrifices, and I don't think Mormons practice those sacrifices, how could they know about things Jewish?

Frankwye

Its accuracy is proven. Don't believe everything you hear. That is why this article is such a good topic. People tend to be lazy when it comes to their spiritual beliefs. Besides, i don't like to use a Bible that does not use Gods name.

We haven't the time to learn everything about all those things and neither do you.

Many of us know about all this stuff...this article doesn't surprise me at all either.

Religion is not God....God is not Religion.

Most Jews I talk to don't seem to have a version of heaven. They always talk about their memory or edifices they have left here on Earth as their immortality.

Mormon rites, while based on Solomonic rites, have been modified. Just like Christians don't make animal sacrifices anymore.

Kap,

It leaves parts, that it does not agree with, out. What was the guys name, Charles Russell? He had to leave out, or change, what he did not agree with.

Could you be more full of yourself? That post sounded like you copied it straight out of your freshman philosophy textbook. Have you ever questioned that? Talk about blind faith. Yours is just blind faith in your college professors. Nice choice.

Crestlinecbs

Could you be more full of yourself? That post sounded like you copied it straight out of your freshman philosophy textbook. Have you ever questioned that? Talk about blind faith. Yours is just blind faith in your college professors. Nice choice.

Good job Crestline proving his point.

"If ignorance is bliss, America is heaven."

Frankwye

With all due respect, you should do some research first on the scriptures and translations. Can you explain why mainstream Bibles have removed Gods name? Its a simple question, and should give you a little project that may prove enlightening!

Jews have always refrained from using His name to keep it holy. Reverence.

Frankwye

Romans 10:13 says "All those calling on the name of Jehovah (Jews refer to him as Yahweh) will be saved."

Using Gods name is Reverence and deep respect.

Kap,
Yes, using it is okay, when it is relevant. They just tried to limit its use.

Frankwye

Actually, the Jews feel that it is NEVER okay to use or pronounce Gods name. This has been the view for centuries. Even the Pope has mandated that all references and uses of Gods name never be used, and consider it too holy as well. Of course this is based on tradition and not based on Bible teaching.

I find it very interesting when the use of Gods name which is used over seven thousand times in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures, have been pulled out of most Bibles.

Just to be clear. I don't have a problem with using His name, when necessary.

Do you have a source for "Jews NEVER..."

Regardles, I find this whole Charles Russell point... pointless or unimportant.

Frankwye

http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm Thats a good place to start. I guess NEVER might be a bit strong, but you will understand more if you read a little on this site.

Is there a question about Charles Russell you have? He was just a man of course and nothing more.

And being a man, fallible in his interpretations.

Frankwye

What interpretation?

I originally was referring to the things that he left out because of your "its accuracy is proven" statement.

Similary, you making trivial points, especially to athiests.

Frankwye

What things did he leave out? Give me something to work with here ;-)

OK.
Its been a long time since I studied this.

First I want to reference what you said above about Jehovah. As I understand it in an attempt to shift the emphasis off of Jesus Christ as God, Russell inserted the derivation "Jehovah" (an adaptation from the original Hebrew "YHWH" for God's Name) in place of theos (God) and Kurios (Lord) in multiple verses in the Christian Greek Scriptures (New Testament). Thus, he created a distinction between Jehovah God and Jesus Christ that is not warranted in the text. In addition to inserting God's Name where it is not supported by the text, they have also mistranslated many verses that support the Deity of Jesus Christ to justify his own anti-Trinitarian dogma interpretation.

Frankwye

What is the origin of the myth? "The impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true . . . The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century."—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Volume 14, page 299.

"The Council of Nicaea met on May 20, 325 [C.E.]. Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, 'of one substance with the Father.' . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination."—Encyclopædia Britannica (1970), Volume 6, page 386.

What does the Bible say? "Stephen, filled with the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God's right hand. 'Look! I can see heaven thrown open,' he said, 'and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God.'"—Acts 7:55, 56, The New Jerusalem Bible.

What did this vision reveal? Filled with God's active force, Stephen saw Jesus "standing at God's right hand." Clearly, then, Jesus did not become God again after his resurrection to heaven but, rather, a distinct spiritual being. There is no mention of a third person next to God in this account. Despite attempts to find passages of Scripture to support the Trinity dogma, Dominican priest Marie-Émile Boismard wrote in his book À l'aube du christianisme—La naissance des dogmes (At the Dawn of Christianity—The Birth of Dogmas): "The statement that there are three persons in the one God . . . cannot be read anywhere in the New Testament."

The dogma that Constantine championed was intended to put an end to dissensions within the fourth-century Church. However, it actually raised another issue: Was Mary, the woman who bore Jesus, "the Mother of God"?

Compare these Bible verses: Matthew 26:39; John 14:28; 1 Corinthians 15:27, 28; Colossians 1:15, 16

The deductive reasoning will lead one to understand that Jesus was in fact the son of God (YHWH Yahweh, Jehovah)

How about this "research".

•John 1:1
The Greek words "ego eimi" meaning "I am" are mistranslated as "I have been" to obscure the connection between Jesus being the "I Am" Jehovah God of Exodus 3:14.

•John 8:58
The word "me" is omitted in "ask Me anything" to support the Watchtower claim that Jesus is not worthy to receive prayer.

and then there is adding words...
•Matthew 25:46
The Greek words "kai theos en ho logos" are mistranslated as "the Word was a god," instead of "the Word was God." This is a distortion of the text as the word "a" is not in the Greek, but was added by the New World Translators to make the Word (Jesus) "a" second "god" who is separate from God the Father.

I actually agree with your Constantine (a pagan) and the Universal Church and its 3-in-one God as a false concept. But that still evades the point that the NWT is translated to include or exclude things that Russell believed.

Frankwye

John 1:1 "en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos."

English translation in beginning (or "original") was the word (or "saying"), and the word (or "saying") was with (lit. "towards" or "facing") the god, and a god was the word (or "saying").^[2]

^{Even using Wikipedia will give you a better translation}

Frankwye

The even more interesting part is the fact that Russell had nothing to do with the translation to begin with. They used the King James and the American Standard version.

Another interesting thing is, wouldn't Jesus name be too holy to use if he were God Almighty?

I really am enjoying our conversation. Its nice to debate with civility! Your probably a very good person Frank!

OOps I got things mixed up.
Here is John 1:1
The Greek words "kai theos en ho logos" are mistranslated as "the Word was a god," instead of "the Word was God." This is a distortion of the text as the word "a" is not in the Greek, but was added by the New World Translators to make the Word (Jesus) "a" second "god" who is separate from God the Father.

KJV:In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I don't think that Jesus is God the Father. He is God the Son.

So using the Bible as its own critic, does it make sense that Jesus was God? Or "A God'?

Since Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 Speaks of the "Dead being conscious of nothing at all." Would we reason that Jesus resurrected himself when he died for mankind?

1 Corinthians 15:27 mentions that Jesus says " The son himself will also subject himself to the one who subjected all things to him, that God may be all thing to everyone".

Why would God subject himself to himself? The list goes on and on. Actually, the first chapter of John is a good one as you read on to disprove the trinity.

If you go to Watchtower.org, you can order free literature if you want. Or just stop a Jehovah's Witness on the street. We are everywhere...lol.

It was nice chatting with you Frank!

I agree with your points such as Jesus was a God but I don't change the text to get there.

So: In the beginning was the Word (Jesus, God), and the Word (Jesus, God the Son) was with God (the Father), and the Word was God (the Son).

"Christians differ from moslems in that they pass around Bibles while some Moslems pass around bombs to any one who disagrees with them."

Really, Jackie? How about all of the assaults on abortion clinics?

I am not religious, I am Christian and there is a huge difference.

To be a believer in God and his son, Jesus is a matter of faith. I could say I've never been in a vision sitting with the lord would make be a bigger liar than the devil. being an atheist is a choice because of the lack of faith. Some have it and some don't. Is the one world government know God? LOL. They say they do but they lie.

Being an "aetheist" is a matter of definition. It is easy to be an "aetheist" in the sense that you do not believe in the "gods" of those religions you have been exposed to. If, however, YOU define "god", then you must believe that definition to be true or you have lied in your own definition. I believe that there is no such thing as an aetheist, if the term "god" is truthfully defined. One example would be, if we were to line up everyone who has ever lived or ever will live in our entire universe, from the most intelligent to the least intelligent, and the one at the front of the line is "god". Then all we need to do is figure out who that is. The "gods" of all religions are defined by their follows and teachers. If you are not one the "followers", that "god" is not your definition of "god", so therefore, from that religion's point of view, you are an aetheist, whether you claim to believe in "god" or not, because you do not believe in their "god". Going back to the definition of "god". If the term "god" is universally accepted as a "supreme being", then all you have to do is ask yourself, "What is my understanding of what a "supreme being" is?", and that, my friend is your "god". You are no longer an aetheist, but someone searching for a "supreme being". Where are you going to look? If you have not found that "god", don't assume that your "god" doesn't exist. There is an old military saying that "there is no such thing as an aetheist in a fox-hole".

Can you specify the particular level of knowledge one must have in order to be acceptable to God? Perhaps He wants only learned or intelligent people. I'm pretty smart, but I would hate to think Heaven was some sort of pyramid scheme where only certain 'kinds' of people could get in. As for good works, if I believed it was a dog-eat-dog race, I would bust my butt to out-work the next guy. Unless of course, one glorious, explosive work would be enough. Then I'd take it easy until that day.

Oh great. let's get on all the atheistic superiority claims. "we're just smarter", "smart people are atheists", "Of course atheists are superior. Religious faiths are for idiots", etc...

Quite frankly, the results don't surprise me, but the comments following are even less surprising.

A few things about the questions, at least the questions they present:

1. A lot of the questions they propose seem to be of factual historical basis. Who founded what, what historical events precluded what, order of books, etc. It plays well into the divide of subjective versus objective knowledge, favoring objective over subjective, when objective knowledge is going to favor the outsider's perspective looking in. It's like a teacup. A person whom uses said cup every day may be able to, blindfolded, recognize the feel and nuance of the cup they use every day over other cups, based on a more subjective "feeling" of familiarity, the person whom does not use the cup will recognize the cup more objectively, through it's color, the pattern of the coffee stains, and perhaps the crack in the glaze on the bottom, that the user might be unaware of. Subjective readers read the stories for overarching points and themes, characterization and motivations objective readers look for names, dates, facts, causes and effects.

2. I admit, most religious believers simply believe what they grew up with, or what sounds good and similar to what they feel aligns with their beliefs without much thought. It's the difference between a theology student and a church goer. Most people are always going to be church goers. If you were to ask people questions regarding the intricacies of building a dining table, few people are going to tell you that they are typically around 30" high, (which accommodates a sitting position in a chair, which has typically around a 20" seat height) and that typically it has about 2 feet of space per seating in space, which also tends to conform around average needs of the average sized person. But almost everyone uses a dining table, and this similarly displays the difference in knowledge between the average dining table user and the carpenter that might create a table.

3. Americans are stupid. People are stupid and cocky in general, but americans tend to take these qualities to a slightly amplified level.

4. Knowledge and correctness do not correlate. Many will take this to mean that "someone whom assumes that they know a lot about a religion means its the correct religion is not necessarily correct", which is true, but it doesn't mean that they are incorrect either. They just do not correlate.

I can study all I want about unicorns, and eventually come to know everything there is to know about them. Give me a test about unicorns, and I can pass it with flying colors. But it doesn't mean unicorns exist. We've never seen a unicorn, and there's little more than anecdotal evidence towards them, so we can assume they don't exist, but even still we must understand that this is an assumption of nonexistence based on relative lack of evidence, and it's a safe assumption. But tomorrow , let's assume, we found a unicorn, then that assumption would prove to have been false (and there are plenty of examples of cryptozoological animals being found.... eventually, though fire breathing dragons and little grey aliens have me VERY skeptical), and neither its existence nor nonexistence have much to do with the knowledge I have from studying unicorns. Which is why I have issues with atheism asserting the nonexistence of god as fact, without the little asterisk following and the footnote pointing to this being only a safe assumption until proven otherwise. (and that footnote is important because its the difference between an atheist that understands he's asserting an assumption (albeit very reasonable) and one that's cocky as hell because he thinks he has absolute fact.)

of course they do they have to study all religions to be able to justify their athiest determination. if not then they are just blowing in the wind.

Matticus-2200113 - Not a terribly good comparison there. Let's total up all the people killed or injured in abortion clinic attacks since Roe v. Wade and compare it to the number of people jihadists have shot, blown up, stoned or beheaded in the name of Allah over the same time period, plus all the alleged thieves (Considering the standards of evidence in typical Islamic courts, I felt the need to throw in the "alleged".) who have had their hands amputated, plus all the girls who've undergone genital mutilation (A tribal thing mentioned nowhere in the Koran, AFAIK, but often justified in the name of Islam). Care to wager on which comes up with a higher body count?

Oh, and let's throw in the response to attacks from the attackers' co-religionists. I don't notice too many Christians dancing in the street after clinic bombings, or collecting money to support the bombers. Even many ardently pro-life Christians vehemently denounce such attacks. OTOH, there seem to be plenty of Muslims who think attacks on Christians, Jews and pretty much anybody else not just like them are just peachy. Even those who don't support this are rarely very vocal about their opposition. I salute the courageous few who do speak out in opposition, but they're a distinct minority.

Of course, that's probably because the vast majority of victims of jihadist violence have been other Muslims, who didn't worship Allah in just the right way. Honesty compels me to admit I might be hesitant to speak up too, if it was likely to mean death for me and my family. Granted, Europe's Wars of Religion involved plenty of Christian vs. Christian violence, but that brings us to my last big distinction: Christians have (mostly) gotten over this sort of thing. I'm a little less concerned over witch trials and anti-heresy crusades that happened a few hundred years ago than I am with things that happened last year, and show every sign of continuing to happen next year.

Just for the record, I'm hardly a Christian apologist. I don't much care for any religion. I consider all of them dangerous to humanity, but I do recognize that some dangers are greater and more immediate than others.

the third version of god is the holy spirit, That version would not apear in heaven because acording to the bible the Holy Spirit is within us all and acts as sort of a spiritual concous(sorry for spelling). Some believe that they are one in the same, while others do not. And that is within just my church alone!

but back to the article. How many poeple? Who did they ask(someone who just became cristian vs someone who studied the bible but was aeitheist)? And most important, where did they put my clothes???

Aramaic

Eli, lama sabacthani?

Koine Greek, in all likelihood.

Good one!

Since Jesus is the son of God and have the powers of God here on Earth, he spoke whatever language he wanted. I would think with his travels and the Roman empire's far reach, he must have spoke many different languages, like Greek Latin. Since he went to Jewish temples to preach, he had to know Hebrew also. It also stands to reason that there were many languages spoken in that area of the world since after Jesus's death and he came back to give his apostles the power of tongues so that they could spread the gospel to others without the barrier of langauge.

Sounds MAGICAL!

It is supernatural. Yes I do have a job I have worked all my life, so if I want to come onto forums and talk to other people I can and will. Also other people on these forums may be disabled or homebound even tho they do not have a job they are valuable human beings with worth and opinions that matter. Joining others on these talk boards may be the only (or a big part of their social activities). Don't you have a job, how about a caring, non judgemental, attitude toward other people. Having a job does not make you a worthwhile individual, having a good soul does.

In case you didn't notice I took exception to your screen name.

I take offense to yours. Who names their daughter "Brenda" anymore?

lola3- Yiddish was not a language at that time, so you may want to tone down the smug quotient.

Ron 52 years ago many people did. I have met a few in my life. My father named me so that I would have the same initials as he did. Don't know if he took into account that I would marry 19 years later and have a different name and initals for the last 33 years. I have raised my sisters two children after she was killed in a car crash at age 34, and fell in love with and adopted a develpmentally disabled child, her mother took drugs and damaged her brain, but she can play a piano like no one you ever heard. So you may not like my name but you cannot make me feel like less of a person. So are you one of the people who "don't you people have a job" is talking about? Is that why you took exception? No, actually you should have cheered me. Don't know where you are coming from. Totally off topic, both of us.

Nothing wrong with the name Brenda. I was married to a Brenda for a while. Actually it seems like she was 19 when I married her way back then too. Anyway, you just stand your ground brenda, don't let the barking dogs get to you.

Wow, thanks.

Wow, nothing like a mild jibe to unleash your "pity-me" story.

Very well said. You must have read my blog. LOL! Each of us are accountable for our choices. Whether we want to be or not.

Yes, I agree also. We are responsible for our lives and how they play out...not God, or religion, or believing in a higher power. Us, and only us. Reilgion is for the gullable and the weak who are lost in their way and need something, anything to believe in. Call it a lack of faith on my part, but what I do have faith in is myself and us as human beings to be good people and have morals and make the right decisions. If we dont, we only have ourselves to blame. Most Christians have lost the ability to see to the origin of their religion and what it was supposed to be founded upon in the first place. I agree and would much rather follow the ancient philosophers and alchemists than Christianity of today's modern world. ;-)

"...so readily removes them from accountability and/or control in their own lives"?

It is so obvious that you have only heard, but not listened to any teaching of Christianity. Turning your life over to God does not mean sit back and let it happen. It means walk in the footsteps of Jesus, live as He lived, and in the end, your sins shall be forgiven. If you just sit back and 'say' you believe, it ain't going to happen for you.

As for religious people taking over the country, who do you think started this country? In part, it was started for religious freedom, not freedom from religion. It was founded on Christian beliefs, beliefs that have stood the test of 2000 years. This is in part why this country has lasted in essentially the same form for 200 years.

I suppose you would prefer people to turn their hopes and dreams over to some all powerful government, relying on the state to take care of them.

If you don't believe, that's your choice.

Athiest are not accountable. The only reason they act responsible, when they do, is because they are competing with religion, trying to prove themselves. Without religion they can do whatever they want.

No, that's not why atheists or agnostics are accountable. Logical, thinking people make themselves accountable. Our family used to be Catholic but decided that Agnostic was more in tune with our beliefs.

The more we learn, the more religion does not fulfill our needs. I am glad to finally see intelligent comments online. Most are controlled by the religious right who insist that their religion will solve all ills. It's clear their logical minds are not functioning well and refuse to see.

For the most religious country in the world, you see very little of the "walking in the shoes of Christ" as they state, with a country full of hate, racism, all sorts of abuses from the strong onto the weak, especially well represented "7 major sins" and more each and every day. In fact, these religious people don't even make very good citizens either. Their religions have turned this country that was supposed to be about freedom into the most violent, hate-spewing and dangerous country on the planet. I hope you are proud of yourselves.

You see what you wish to see, whether it is there or not.

Jaketrout,

This country was not founded on Christian beliefs, it was founded on HUMANE beliefs. It was founded so that no religion would/should control this country, not the other way around.

So sorry to burst your bubble.

To Frankwye

who said:

- Athiest are not accountable. The only reason they act responsible, when they do, is because they are competing with religion, trying to prove themselves. Without religion they can do whatever they want.

Frankwye, I am an Athiest, and I feel very accountable. I feel accountable to myself, my family, my country, and our posterity. I feel accountable to the planet, to the truth, and to justice.

I will take the accolades and punishments for my own actions, knowing that I made the decision, not someone telling me what to do, or not to do something. I am a person of science, not fantasy.

You may choose to believe there is a God out there doling out punishment if you eat meat on Fridays, or because you didn't say enough Hail Mary's. If you need that kind of restriction on your life to make you act like a good person, then I'm glad your God is there to punish your misbehavior.

Personally, I wouldn't/won't worship a "GOD" who needs to rule by fear and threats, that's called a Dictator. I'll keep my faith in science and reality, and still be a good person. All by myself! And if there is a Hell, and I go there, it will be because of my own actions, not because I was part of the cattle call.

G,
Those humane beliefs came from Christianity.

Daz,

Good for you. I don't think God cares about meat on Fridays or Hail Mary's either.

Most murderers (except Muslims) are agnostics or athiests. They may say they believe in God but when questioned that is all they can say.

Frankwye

G,
Those humane beliefs came from Christianity.

So without Christianity there would be no humane beliefs? Or are you trying to tell us the Christians always behave humanely? Either way, you are way off.

BTW, this is not a christian nation. This is a nation of free people, free to choose to believe or not believe in some relgion.

Only the mentally deranged and Muslims say that God wanted them to kill.

Dave
No. But in the case of America it did, as countless more examples.

Humans never always behave humanely.

Frankwye, you say "Those humane beliefs came from Christianity?" HAHAHA! That's a good one! Chrisitanity is incredibly INhumane! In the Bible, words having to do with killing significantly outnumber words having to do with love. Also, the bible condones mysogeny (MANY passages on that one), pedophilia (Number 31:17-18 (one of many), incest (Genesis 19:30-38 (one of many), rape (Samuel 13:10-16 (one of many), slavery (found in Genesis, Luke Deuteronomy, Exodus & Ephesians), vulgarity, obsenities, etc. How about the Salem Witch Trials? How about the Spanish Inquisition for f*ck's sake?! The deluded, religious zealots really DON'T know their religion or their bible! Everything in it contradicts itself. Wake up and smell the REALITY!!!!

@Frankwye - Humane beliefs, morality and love existed long before Christ and Christianity were invented.

Plus, your assertion that most murderers are agnostic, atheist, (or Muslim) is laughable.

Christianity comes from the NT, eschewing much of the OT.

Keep laughing Matt.

Christianity is really just a reformed Judaism.

I have nothing to prove to any religion. I find the study of theology fasinating. The evolution of the three major religions of the world is a very interesting read and they ALL come from the Middle East. Christianity's major holidays were the merge of Pagan rituals in order to convert people to their church. The crusades, which pitted these religions, were about power and riches...and they continue today. Where's the accountability of religion for the lack of world peace!!!! Too much hate and lies in the name of religion!

People use religion as an excuse or as a reason to suit their own purposes. How is that accountability? I have a dear friend that says he will do whatever it takes to go to heaven, he believes that being a good person will get him into heaven. I equate this with giving a toddler cookie for using the toilet. Why can't people just be good people without reward? Why can't you be good for the sake of being an evolved human being?

I am an athiest and I am an accountable person and I am a good, loving and respectful person WITHOUT religion. I do not begrudge you your faith, but, it is interesting that you believe that religion is what keeps you accountable.

TWI,

The mention of slavery in Ephesians was just a reference to what is and when you are powerless to do anything about it. However, most of the teachings in the NT is about how to treat your fellow man when you have control of yourself.

The Salem witch trials, etc, was a corrupt christianity. People in power will use whatever excuse they have available.

GoodPers,

Good thoughts. I would hope that everyone would choose to be good for whatever reason. A person can choose to be bad too. But I am sure you will have excuses for that behavior.

Frankwye,

I am not laughing. While your beliefs and assertions certainly could be a source of mirth to some, I find it sad that so many suffer from these delusions. While the harm that is done to oneself and one's family through religious belief is real, the collective harm done on human society is an absolute tragety.

Your rather ignorant statement about the religious identity of people who commit murder is an excellent example. You make a blind assertion not based in fact instead of acknowledging the reality. That type of behaviour is quite common among "people of faith". This leads to the real ills of the world to go unexamined, real problems unaddressed.

Matt,

You got any "facts"? I made your "humane befor Christianity" point null and void.

Frankwye

Most murderers (except Muslims) are agnostics or athiests. They may say they believe in God but when questioned that is all they can say.

Oh, I just realized I'm trying to have a discussion with someone not grounded in reality and blinded by hate and fear. This obviously isn't worth the effort I'm putting in to it. However that's a pretty board statement there Frank, any proof to back that slightly incoherent statement?

So you never heard Terrorists say that it is okay to kill infidels in the name of God?

Ask any murderer, before they go through any conversions, if they killed for God or if their "religion" condoned what they did.

Do you actually think you can follow logic?

Lets play "who is the hater or fearful".

Who said, "I just realized I'm trying to have a discussion with someone not grounded in reality and blinded by hate and fear."?

So was there something I said that was hateful or fearful? Or was your statement the hateful and fearful one?

Frankwye: Just because someone is a terrorist doesn't mean they are a Muslim and just because they are a Muslim it doesn't mean they are a terrorist.

A majority of the Muslims are pacifists. They take from the Quran the pacifist views. In fact the Quran tells them only to attack those that have attacked them. You blame an entire religious faith on a few extremists? Using your logic we should blame ALL Christians for the Ku Klux Klan and for the raids on abortion clinics and Neo-Nazis actions. In case you didn't know, those were acts of terrorism too. All done by "Christians" and it could be argued that they very strongly believe in their faith and are by no means agnostic.

I do not believe all muslims are terrorists. Those terrorists are extremists & religions in general have extremists, active participants & those who are 'lukewarm' going with the flow.

In any religion, you will find those who practise & those who don't.

For all those who believe (in God & Jesus), no matter what is or was said or done, all will be revealed in the end, not one secret hidden. Saying you are religious does not make you religious.

As for Christianity, did Jesus not chastise the Scribes & Pharisees on many occasions?

There is a difference between the 'heart' of the Law & following the Law.

All have sinned & some seek to repent of their sins over time.

Being Christian doesn't mean we are without sin, it means we are repentant & through our relationship with Jesus seek to find the true way back to God by his living example.

There is a difference between the 'heart' of the Law & following the Law.

MY apologies. I meant to say "the heart of the Law & the letter of the Law."

Why would God be so fickle and inscrutable as to hide his wisdom from the world? Has he got something to hide? Why didn't God write his own book, instead of relying upon his miseducated followers who didn't even understand basic cosmology? Why is there no original manuscript of the Bible if it was so important to the early church? And why did Christianity schism early into its history into so many heresies, such as Manichaeism and Gnosticism?

The fear of God is the beginning of mental atrophy.

that you would even question Him proves your ignorance...and your "education" means nothing to me.

I don't make it a habit of defending God or what I believe, nor do I ever feel the need to argue about whether or not He exists. His Word speaks for Him. Man is flawed - God is perfect, and I don't attribute the mistakes of man throughout history to God.

I am at peace with my beliefs.....I rarely see an atheist who is at peace with what they believe....

"...nor do I ever feel the need to argue about whether or not He exists."

Do you even sense the slightest bit of irony that this line exists in a post by you where you obviously felt the need to argue about whether or not god exists?

Hope-2425871

that you would even question Him proves your ignorance...and your "education" means nothing to me.

This is funny to me. ignorant? You put your life in the hands of this old book written by men to control the heathens so they won't run rampant. All it is, is crowd control nothing more. You believe this fairy tale, I would just as soon believe Lord of The Rings.

So, your God is an infantile prankster who "hides his wisdom" from anyone who he has blessed with a reasonable intelligence.

A discount publisher could make a typsetting error and it would become the infallible, eternal word of god to people like you. Please get help.

Hope-2425871 - are you muslim? Because they use the ONE TRUE GOD, the god of ADAM and NOAH, etc. Wait isn't that the same god that the jews, darn it is. Three religions and one god, hmmmmm. Ironic at best!

SO this proves ignorance, but not for me. It's about time you actually read the bible instead of like the radical muslims, having someone else tell you about it. Just like the quote from the kuran where it states, find theinfidels where ever they are and kill them, so does the old testament in Deutoromy; if any one subverts your god away from the people of your city kill them all.

So next think about the way you start a joke at the start of a 100 people and by the end it's a different joke; now think of the tower of babel; god cast they people to the four corners with different languages. Oh my; that could mean that all the religions are thinking of the same god......

OPEN YOUR BRAIN CLOSE YOUR EARS and by all means stop watching FAUX NEWS (totally biased and unfair)

#1 - Not arguing just discussing...

#2 - The Lord of The Rings has many Biblical overtones, which you probably chose to ignore or were unaware of....

#3 - You really don't get it - carnal knowledge IS not intelligence to Almighty God

You people have fun with your little debate here - I know the truth and the Truth has set me free!!

Hey Peter Piper (or whatever) I cannot even begin to discuss this with you, but I will clear this up - I am a Christian. I have read the Bible many times. I also know that Muslims quote many of the same scripture from the Holy Bible.

There is one True God - not my words His!!! You clearly have no knowledge of His Word or of His love and mercy....I feel sorry for you.

I deny having an education. I admit to asking a lot of questions, and noticing who ignores them.

@Hope-2425871: Please stop making a fool of yourself. Your petulant, admonishing and downright hateful tone is extremly unbecoming and terribly un-Christian.

You should look up "carnal" in the dictionary -- if you have one.

Actually, hope, considering that the so-called "true Christians" blamed the Jews for killing Jesus up until Vatican II in 1965, I don't see how they can begin to think they understand Judaism.

Faith follows reason. The Universe is comprehensible. That alone, accounts for an intelligence of creation. Even I, as a Christian, am disgusted with a family member Christian who states "education is garbage". No wonder others mock and despise such ignorance.

wisdom is the proper application of truth and knowledge

Hope: I have seen many of those who say they are religious, get on here and quote scriptures and attack those who do not believe. We are all human and we are all looking for answers. Some of these folks are very educated and to say something is so won't cut it. You have to be able to layout a philosphical argument that is tough to tear apart logically. Most people cannot do this and as logical as I am, with exposure to philosophy, it is very difficult for me at times. To denigrate someone or some other religion is actually pretty ugly and people are turned off by that. There are many who are looking for the spirituality. It is me belief that the religions need to find a new way to get the message out, the old ways no longer work as well.

I rarely see an atheist who is at peace with what they believe....

Hi there, My name is Dave, I'm an atheist and I'm perfectly at peace with what I believe.

Now you have.

My question for you Hope is: why do feel the need to so stridently defend you beliefs?

Hi, I'm also an atheist and am very at peace with what I believe, mostly because I don't have to pay anyone to tell me what I believe every Sunday.

All religions are myths.
Hope, be at peace all you want. Blind adherence to any belief system in ignorant.

If God created us in his own image wouldn't that make him imperfect too? Or are we really all perfect?

God DID create up perfect to live in a perfect environment (Eden) and because He loved us so much He gave us free will to love Him in return (without forcing or demanding). That same free-will gave opportunity for one particular angel, satan to want more power than God. In his attempt to take from God what he loved, his perfect couple, he twisted God's truth about the tree in the center of Eden. Why didn't God stop that all from happening, I don't know. I certainly dont pretend to know God's mind. I do know He sent His only Son, born of a Virgin, perfect in every way, to die for our sins so that we become more like Him and have a place in His family. God's Word tells us it will be easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. Why? Because they could NEVER give up all they had to follow Him. One reader said intelligent people dont' believe in God. Really? I personnally know lots of Doctors, Lawyers, etc who are followers of Jesus Christ! To live a life of a follower of Christ is to lay down your life and put others first! But to become a follower of Christ, you must BELIEVE in Him and He who sent Him. Guess some of the SMART people just don't educate themselves very much. They can't get beyond the Me, Me, Me stuff.

#2 - The Lord of The Rings has many Biblical overtones, which you probably chose to ignore or were unaware of....

ahh! Very true! :)

The late Professor J. R. R. Tolkien was a devout Catholic up to his death. Most people don't notice the Christian undertones becaue of it's subtelty.

Another intresting thing about the professor is his connection to another well known author, C.S. Lewis.

Long story short, C.S Lewis was an atheist turned Christian Apologetic.

They were good friends at times & one of the things they disagreed on was the manner in which they brought about Christian themes in their stories.

J. R. R. Tolkien was subtle while C.S. Lewis was a bit more...obvious.

@Banklady,

How do you explain Lilith?

Which one? The demon, the baby killer, or the wife of Satan. Stuff of legends and myths.

All religions consists mainly of legends and myths. Some have some accurate Jewish history, Muslim history, so forth. But it doesn't prove that Sky Daddy had anything to do with the events.

bingo.

If we're going to get into this, lets really get into it.

How long ago was Gods first creation? How many years have passed?

How does religion explain fossils that date back millions of years?

How long after Adam and Eve did God create the dinosaurs?

And hey, as long as we're asking questions, why did God insist on hiding away His knowledge, only revealing it to people with a questionable grasp on both sanity and personal hygiene? Are you seriously telling me the Creator of the Universe and All That Is couldn't come up with a decent PA system?

Not to mention it seems rather cruel and capricious of Him to give us free will, but then punish us when we don't do what he likes. This is why I believe that if there really is a God, He shouldn't be worshiped so much as blamed.

The earth is billions of years old. The beginning of time. The dinosaurs came first.

Three earth ages the last one still to come.

Brenda -

I think a person would be hard pressed to even try considering the actual beginning of existence. Earth may be around 4 billion years old or so (give or take a few hundred million either way) but the age of the Universe is infinitely older than that. Of course that's only based on the scientific evidence that has been collected so far. I don't think there is evidence of any kind that can determine the size or age of the Universe as of yet.

As far as the ages of Earth, what are you referring to?

Al

Science says that the universe is about 13.7 billion years old. Not infinitely old. If it were infinitely old ... you could not have arrived in the now. It is impossible to cross an infinite by successive addition ... and if the universe were infinitely old ... you would have a infinite moments ... plus if it were infinite it would have run out of usable energy ... some infinite amount of time ago.

It appears that the universe had a beginning.

Jeff

I see I used the wrong word in my post

the Universe is infinitely older than that

I should have put it this way:

the Universe is much older than that

Big difference, sorry about that.

13.7 Billion years old. Good, I heard they upped what they had originally thought the age of the Universe was. I haven't been following the studies so I'm behind the times.

Interesting note on infinite universe theory. I've never heard that opinion (theory?) before about:

it is impossible to cross an infinite by successive addition ... and if the universe were infinitely old ... you would have a infinite moments

I'll have to give that statement some thought. Impossible to cross because there would be no beginning and no end since it is infinite. So you couldn't "cross" it meaning go from one end to the other or from beginning to end.

But does the same hold true for something simply moving around within the non-existent boundaries of the little part of the Universe that we live in?

plus if it were infinite it would have run out of usable energy ... some infinite amount of time ago.

Maybe we're witnessing the last stages right now. Does existence cease when all energy is expended or does the Universe continue to exist but in an empty (static?) state?

I'm not really pushing either theory or questioning any theory. I just like to pitch different angles of view this topic.

Interesting discussion Al ... i love thinking about this stuff.

We know that the universe is expanding at an ever faster rate ... eventually to a heat death where every molecule or atoms or gas could be separated by miles of vaccuum space.

So do I Jeff -

Why do you suppose this is happening?:

We know that the universe is expanding at an ever faster rate

Not that it's expanding, but that it's expanding at "an ever faster rate"? What in nature would (or could) cause an expanding Universe to accelerate beyond the speed induced by the original driving force?

It seems that if everything were indeed expanding outward from the same initial driving force that the speed of expansion would only be affected by the interactions of the objects within that Universe. Gravitational interactions would or could cause variations in object paths and speeds but would have no effect on the "Universe" as a whole. Fun to ponder.

eventually to a heat death where every molecule or atoms or gas could be separated by miles of vaccuum space.

Now there's another concept to chew on. Heat death would suggest an absolute cease of all atomic and molecular activity within the building blocks that make up everything physical within the Universe. I'd like to be a "fly on the wall" for that one.

If heat death did occur would the Universe continue to expand? Would the "object in motion" law be thrown out the window because the forces holding those objects together no longer exists due to the same reasons that caused heat death? Or would the remaining "dead" atomic particles continue expanding at an ever increasing rate? Is that related to "Dark Matter"?

Why are we born with such a relentless curiosity? :)

Just wanted to add to the inflation debate. I believe the inflation rate was higher than they anticipated, but not the fastest it's ever been. I remember reading somewhere that initial expansion was traveling faster than the speed of light. Now I'll through a twist into it. Since gravity warps spacetime, from Einstein, would it be feasible to think of space as being restrained by gravity thereby having a different expansion rate as opposed to intergalactic space where there would be no major source of gravity? Further, would the distance of a meter in a galaxy be the same as a meter in the space between galaxies and could we even measure it?

Oh I love this one :)

I hadn't heard about the initial inflation rate exceeding the speed of light. My physics teacher would probably hunt you down and rip your heart out LOL.

Seriously though, that does bring up an interesting twist. I've always wondered (out of my own ignorance) why scientists put a cap on the maximum speed as the speed of light.

It is a proven fact that black holes actually bend light as it passes by, but what happens if the black hole is directly in the path of a beam of light? Is it possible that the immense gravitational pull that is known to affect the path of light also able to speed it up? That would certainly add support to your suggestion.

Your last sentence wanders into a contradictory realm of existence. One would think a meter is a meter is a meter no matter where the meter is. If we take a yardstick and place it in an area of space between galaxies I would think it would still be a yard long. If we place it in an area of "twisted or warped" space I suppose we would have to think about it a bit. Assuming the observer is in the same twisted or warped space, the yard stick may be proportionally the same length as it originally was. However, if the observer is not in the same warped or twisted space then the answer becomes very elusive. It could "appear" to be microscopic in length or it could appear to be billions of miles in length, all dependent upon the extent of the warp and the view of the observer.

Could we measure it? My first thought would be yes if the observer was in proximity to the yard stick he could probably measure it since the observer is experiencing the same warpage (for lack of a better word) as the stick. If the observer was not in proximity I would say the stick would be impossible to measure due to the level of distortion cause by the warps and twists in space.

TReed, good one. What are your thoughts on that?

If we don't take responsibility for our own actions we go to "hell for eternity", how is that passing the buck?

Because on your deathbed you can say, "Jesus, I'm really sorry about all those horrible thing I did." He forgives you and you waltz thru the pearly gates.

Not necessarily, you have to mean it.

Yeshua Christos. A Hellenized Jew, sent down to absolve the planet from "sin" by the creator of the universe? By a God who wouldn't forgive his own peoples' transgressions unless they butchered livestock on altars? There had to be a less messy way. Yahweh has a lot of blood on his holy hands.

But by fickle logic, if he created it all, he can destroy it all. Like any three year old would.

"Christ will only knock at the door of your heart" LOLOLOLOL!

You only make it less believable sir.

I wouldn't say it's love, Michael, especially considering the expulsions, the pogroms, the mass killings that have been done by Christians in an attempt to convince Jews to become apostates to their faith and become Christian.

Sorry Micheal but the small voice in my head has been pissed off at organized relgion since the local Catholic church we attended when I was child told me I was less of a Catholic because my parents got divorced. Yes, I know that was a choice by a local priest who was wrong, but he made a HUGE mistake: He got me thinking instead of just believing! Never give the faithful reason to think, more than half of them will wander off.

Getting into a closer relationship with God means constant spiritual battle. It's like being put through the fire to refine the precious metal.

The parable of the man who built his house on the rocks & the one who built his house on the sand is a good example of our Christian relationship.

If unfortunately we have a weak foundation, it becomes easy for us to fall & doubt our faith if it shoud be truly tested.

The good thing about falling is that you can pick yourself up again. There is still time.

"Many are called, few are chosen."

samatheist...never heard of metaphors?

It's easy to lure small children and young people into religion because they are curious to the world, yet still neive to it all. Put it in their heads early, and BAM! More of em....I believe a child should have a choice in religion, or if they want to be religious at all. I went to church multiple times a week (christian) and was punished if I didn't go. I attended Sunday School, bible school, payed attention to it all. They were very nice people at that church. But as I grew up a little bit, I was more curious to science and facts, and began to see just how full of crap Religion is, and how far they've all strayed from what was supposed to be God's Way. I refuse to be a part of any of it today because of that. I can be a good person, and live a fulfilling life without being a Christian and going to church every sunday, or at all for that matter. If God exists, I think he would be happy with that.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John 3:16

You've nailed it bmx mom....the more you actually learn the less likely you are to believe any of it.

It is an important part of believing to keep yourself deliberately ignorant of the facts, and to 'spin' whatever facts do manage to slip past and threaten the belief system. All inconsistencies are simply brushed off as another of god's "mysteries" that we lowly mortals just can't possibly understand, a self-deceptive way to maintain belief in the unbelievable.

Anyone who genuinely tries to understand religion and makes the effort to research it's history, it's precepts (all of them) and to place them into the proper historical context, will understand the need and desire for religion, even appreciate its benefits, but an honest and intelligent examination will not lead to a belief in it.

What I can't understand is why atheists take upon themselves to question our beliefs. I believe in God and Jesus, but I don't force my beliefs on others. If you don't believe in God then so be it. But don't belittle my beliefs because I don't question yours.

I try to live by the example Jesus set for his followers. I am not perfect so there are many times when I fail to live by those standards, but at least I try. I don't see why atheists are so opposed to trying to live by those standards. Is it that bad to want to live in peace with your fellow man?

Don't confuse religion with faith. You can have faith in God and not attend a Church. You don't need to know about the history or rituals of your denomination, whether you are a Christian, Jew or Muslim, etc. I am a Catholic because I was baptised Catholic. I am comfortable with my beliefs and I don't necessarily agree with all of what the Church preaches. However agree enough to stay with the Church. I don't go to Church that often, but I find peace within myself when I do. I know, that's just terrible.

The arguement that atheists are somehow more intelligent than religious people is absurd. Because you know some talking points about other religions you are somehow more intelligent that others? You may know some facts, but that doesn't mean you understand.

You have look at what this study did and didn't say. I said atheists are more likely to be educated, not that there are not educated believers. Is it that hard to believe that people with less education tend to be religious? They may not know much about their Churches, but they probably don't know much about the founding fathers, or the American Revolution either.

I will bet that there are far more educated religious people than atheists.

you're out of your mind- You are all so far from reality it's unbelievable! Atheists and Agnostics are Realists.....we need facts and evidence and proof.......and we would not be arguing anything without REASON. And usually being educated or knowing a lot of facts about histories of anything, especially the topic of Religions in my opinion would make someone intelligent. Are you blind to that as well?

Sure, a lot of poor, less educated people are religious- they are weak, and have nothing else to look forward to in life, other than the false faith which is religion.........swooped in for the kill! They'd rather believe in that than hold themselves accountable for having crappy lives-

What I can't understand is why atheists take upon themselves to question our beliefs. I believe in God and Jesus, but I don't force my beliefs on others. If you don't believe in God then so be it. But don't belittle my beliefs because I don't question yours.

I doubt atheists would care what religious people believe if they stopped trying to change our laws to reflect their beliefs. Abortion, gay marriage, stem cell research, science in schools, prayer in schools, sex education, access to birth control...these are things that effect atheists every bit as much as religious folk...yet religious folk want to be able to force their religion on us through laws based only on thier beliefs...not reality, not science, not common sense.

In addition, religious folk have made a point of demonizing atheism to the point where studies have shown that in this country it is more likely for a muslim to be elected president than it is for an atheist. Atheists are routinely portrayed as immoral, as untrustworthy and described as choosing atheism only so they can "sin and rebel against god". The insanity of that is obvious to atheists....we cannot rebel against something that doesn't exist. It is perfectly acceptable for religious folk to sow seeds of distrust and hatred towards atheists from the pulpit every week, even though (like your religion) you know virtually nothing about them.

For these reasons atheists must take a stand against religion. We have to protect our laws from myth-based perversions and protect ourselves from organized and socially sanctioned discrimination.

When religion can learn to live according to their beliefs without trying to force the rest of us to live by them too, and give atheists the respect that they demand from others, then there will be no need to push against them. Until then, they force the issue.

Children are very concrete. As you grow older you understand things like nuance and feeling, better. This is why there is a movement to try and quantify these sorts of things scientifically through noetics.

NotKidding:

I understand your argument about the laws created in this country. However that is the result of living in a democracy. As long as there a religious majority living in this country you will have these results.

Out of the issues you listed, I really only see gay marriage as a strictly religious debate. The rest can be argued different ways ranging from morality to education.

If atheists are speaking up for gay marriage, isn't that a bit of a contradiction? Marriage, as Christians view it, is a union b/t a man an a women through the grace of God. If you don't believe in God, then how can you believe in marriage?

I'm all for gay and lesbian couples having the same rights as traditional married couples.

Gay marriage can be a strictly secular debate.

Iceman writes:

You have look at what this study did and didn't say. I said atheists are more likely to be educated, not that there are not educated believers. Is it that hard to believe that people with less education tend to be religious? They may not know much about their Churches, but they probably don't know much about the founding fathers, or the American Revolution either.

Bingo! Correct and this is what makes some of the current politicians (Palin, O'Donnell, etc) so dangerous! They don't know the teachings of the bible, or the founding fathers, or the American Revolution and most importantly the U.S. Constitution! They are quite simply unfit for public office at any level.

I have no issue with well educated people of faith. In fact I enjoy having some rather interesting discussion with them. The uneducated however are dangerous people.

I will bet that there are far more educated religious people than atheists.

I'd be willing to take that bet. I live in a very religious area and the overwhelming majority of them are far more UNDER educated than the athiest family in town.

Dave, Dave, Dave,

You just tell yourself you are educated. However, when confronted with facts you just run away. You quit replying above.

I find educated communists and socialists much more dangerous than liberty lovers.

I understand your argument about the laws created in this country. However that is the result of living in a democracy. As long as there a religious majority living in this country you will have these results.

Then apparently you don't understand the constitution either, because we do NOT keep laws on "majority rule" we uphold them on whether or not they are constitutionally sound. That's why we don't have school prayer and why the courts will overrule gay marriage bans every time. The constitution prevents mob rule trampling the rights of citizens who aren't in the majority. That's the whole point and purpose of it...to protect individual and minority rights against the likes of you....who think that if you aren't in the majority...then too bad...no rights for you.

Out of the issues you listed, I really only see gay marriage as a strictly religious debate. The rest can be argued different ways ranging from morality to education.

Then you are being disingenuous. Trust me...atheists are far more likely to support stem cell research, a women's right to choose, comprehensive sex education, availability of birth control and teaching of actual science in the schools...because our morality comes from common sense, life experience and the capacity to empathize with others.. not ridiculous arbitrary religious prohibitions that have no basis in reality and do nothing to actually stop the behaviors they prohibit.

If atheists are speaking up for gay marriage, isn't that a bit of a contradiction? Marriage, as Christians view it, is a union b/t a man an a women through the grace of God. If you don't believe in God, then how can you believe in marriage?

I don't understand the question. Just because christians choose to view something in a certain way doesn't make that way accurate. Marriage has been around since before recorded history...christianity has only been around two thousand years....an infant on the world stage. It's the height of insanity to suggest that marriage was invented by, or is owned by christianity. In fact, they only started getting their greedy little hands on marriage ceremonies a few hundred years ago, before that the extent of their involvment (when there was any) was simply to record marriages the same way they recorded births and deaths.

Anyone can be married without ever having a single religious component. Marriage is a SECULAR contract, not a religious one. Religious people are welcome to have a religious ceremony and believe whatever they like about it...just as anyone can get married jumping from a plane or diving underwater if they want...but if they don't get the secular license and if the ceremony isn't performed by someone the secular state gave authority to...then they aren't legally married.

Religion is no more "necessary" for marriage than a performing seal.

I'm all for gay and lesbian couples having the same rights as traditional married couples.

Me too. Marriage is a right the rest of us enjoy and they are entitled to.

Dave, Dave, Dave,

You just tell yourself you are educated. However, when confronted with facts you just run away. You quit replying above.

I find educated communists and socialists much more dangerous than liberty lovers.

Gee thanks mister one liner.

Now please find for me in ANY ever placed on this board when I claim to be highly educated. Also please find for me an example of a discussion where I "ran away". I did not quit, I was done. If my answer seems incomplete to you, I'm sorry, but I do have other things to do.

I find educated communists and socialists much more dangerous than liberty lovers.

Really? Some of these self proclaimed "liberty lovers" appear not to understand the defintion of "liberty". That is far more scary than a smart communist or socialist. BTW, pop quiz time. Define the terms communism and socialism.

Dave,

I think one liners are great! Especially when they are concise.

3.13 debunks your beliefs.

Socialism is an economic and political theory advocating public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources. In democratic socialism 51% of the people can control the property of the dissenting 41%.

Communism aims for a classless society structured upon forced (usu.) communal ownership of the means of production and the end of wage labour and private property.

Not a whole lot of difference really.

In communism, government controls everything. In socialism you must only convince 51% to be able to control everything.

In democratic socialism 51% of the people can control the property of the dissenting 41%.

Geez, I feel sorry for that other 8%.

And John 3.13 does nothing to debunk anything I've said. But if bible quotes make you happy, I'm fine with it.

Since we're doing bible quotes now, Luke 6:35-38;42.

And good luck with that plank. Peace out.

NO! LOL!

#3.13 on this web page.

and Oops you got me. I hit 1 instead of 9. The point remains the same though.

Ahh.. well then post #3.13 was as clear as mud. You and those one-liners...

The numbers one and nine aren't very close on the keyboard. :) and I wasn't arguing the point, just having a little fun.

I would have to agree with you 100%.

Ditto.

Intelligent observation.

As a christian, I agree.

A smart / dumb issue, please, denying the existence of God leaves you with the only alternative, Evolution, probably the least intelligent THEORY ever devised by MAN. There are many ways to prove it's false and NO way to prove its true. I'm not recommending mainstream organized religion because they are not practicing the true religion that Jesus patterned for mankind. There is only one true religion and if you have the right heart you WILL be found and educated in the right way to go and the enlightened to the meaning of life.

Rich, you need to speak to a biologist. Evolution has been proven.

Vincent, excellent. Thank you.

Rich, One could say the same to the theory that some super being created mankind. Why? For pets? As playthings for his cruel little games? Ever read the old testament Rich? A book dominated by a very petty, childish and cruel god.

Did you see the debate with Ben Stein and Harris the athiest. Harris said that because of cellular theory there must have been another being that brought life to this planet.

Hmmm.

After this hit the blogosphere he said he was kidding.

Frankwye

Did you see the debate with Ben Stein and Harris the athiest. Harris said that because of cellular theory there must have been another being that brought life to this planet.

It was an asteroid from Mars. We are all Martins.

(This was humor in case you lack one)

Actually,

I'm Frank. Not Martin.

C'mon, wasn't that hilarious?

Yes that was.

Rich - Please enlighten me as to how evolutionary theory has been proven false. By definition, scientific theories are never proven to be true, but any truly scientific theory can be proven false. (Falsifiability is part of the definition of a scientific theory.) Last I heard, evolutionary theory had not been proven false, despite the many, many attempts. It has been revised over the years as more information has become available, but that's hardly the same thing.

Don't atheists identify as atheists?

No, many atheists don't want to identify themselves as atheists. They get preached to or lose friends if they do. Religion is irrational and so are the followers.

Hey ParkerMom, you are right... many Atheists don't want to ID themsevles for fear of some type of repraisal. I decided that if I lost friends over it, it would again show the hypocrisy of religion and how judgemental the people are, in turn telling me I wouldn't need them as friends! I have no problem telling someone I'm an atheist. I'm very close friends to a super religious person, and we do what most adults SHOULD do. She doesn't shove her religious delusions down my throat, and I don't tell her why I think religious people are delusional. Neither of us tries to prove a point to the other because we know already how each other feels. She only talks religion to her friends that believe that hoo-ha, and I refrain from venting about religious nuts when I'm around her. We don't skip a beat in our friendship, even though we are 180 degrees apart of this stuff. If only everyone could be like that, huh?

ParkerMom

No, many atheists don't want to identify themselves as atheists. They get preached to or lose friends if they do. Religion is irrational and so are the followers.

In the community I live in announcing yourself as someone who does not believe will get you ostracized from every local event in the area. The locals will not talk to you, they won't let their children play with your children. It's pretty damn disgusting. I find it both sad and funny that I have to teach my children not to discuss religion with the other kids in the neighborhood. I could understand this if it was just the children, but it's the parents leading the children. It's very sad that these people don't even know what's in the own religious book.

My mom was a religious nut, telling us she will not raise two lil bastirds in her house. I read the bible twice by the time I was 12 or 13. I doubted the bible then and made my decision that it was all BS. My decision was based on what I read and the actions of most of the supposed Christians I knew growing up. My mom, the minister getting caught bonking the married church secretary. Jimmy Swaggart, Oral Roberts, Jerry Fartsmell, Tammy and Jim. Religion isn't short of crooks and loons. It is amusing to watch them though. I love to laugh. Just watched one the other night with this ole lady with this huge Pink hairdo, and why do most these Televangelist ladies look like hookers? And why do the men look like used car dealers? If they really knew the bible they wouldn't dress like that and adorn themselves with jewelry and makeup. And the women would keep their traps shut so says the bible. OH I didn't forget, the new testament was re written to remove a lot of the bible that made living a little easier for themselves. It actually is funny. And the Muslims. They are no better. Smiling at you and telling everyone they are our friends when they would just as soon chop of your head. They are all terrible terrible cults.

That's not too smart to make a decision that will effect your happiness FOREVER, based on the thoughts you had as a 12/13 year old child. Everyone does have problems. Do you think someone that is not religious wouldn't do all those things? Why would it matter anyway, if you don't 'believe' right? Or do you really think there is something to 'Right/Wrong' behavior? Lots of hate coming from your writing. Look back at what you wrote. Better get some help.

Well said.

It's difficult to make a conclusion on entire religions based on a sample survey in one country.

As humans, we tend to stereotype almost everything. We do it so natrually we don't even notice.

If only all comments could be respectful & tolerant of others beliefs & thoughts.

You are not at peace; you are off on a rant right now! They way you talk, god will not be mocked etc. You sound like a muslim. Darn thats right, muslims, jews and christians all beieve in the same god.

So run off and hide, call your pastor who like many others in christanity is of having sex with little boys, pros, or drugs and sit back and believe you are right.

You don't know how many people chrisitians killed in the world under the name of god; show me in the bible where Jesus says to kill off people?

...and that all of your so-called education makes you right.

Are you implying that your lack of education on this matter makes you right?

But, Hope god him/her self says that man does not need to know god. That all become faithful when met with his/her grace.

So, your human condemnation means little...

"You mock those who are at peace,..."

From your posts, you really seam like you're at peace and your closing line of

"May God have mercy on your souls........"

sounds like real sincerity and of concern for others well being and not in the least bit like a violent fantasy of eternal torment for those who would dare mock you.

@Hope-2425871: There's no point to acting like a fool; reconsider the tone of your posts before making them.

god is just, huh? Why then do innocent children get kidnapped and used as sexual slaves? Why do young women get raped? Why are there starving people in the world? And why were there so many "miracles" performed in the "bible" days and not in modern times? For example, Food falling from the sky to feed the children of Israel. But now, people die everyday because they can't feed themselves or their families. but god is "just"...

I suppose you can make "god" look just if you edit the bible like has been done many times before. It's interesting to me that the bible is used as"proof" that god exists even though it has been re-written, translated, re-translated, cut, and chopped to say exactly what your preacher would want it to say.

And what do you mean, "no concept of sin"...I don't need to believe in some "god" to know that I should be a good person.

I used to be you... I thought I knew it all. Mormons have a way of raising their children to believe that their is one true religion on earth... theirs. I believed it for a while. Then I started asking questions... they didn't like that. When I started answering those questions on my own, I realized that all religion is a huge lie. I cired for days, but the truth was there. Things started to make more sense when "god" wasn't the answer to everything anymore. It turns out that religion was started as a way to control the masses.

"True Christians, who follow the teachings of Christ and worship Almighty God are not being "led blindly" by religion...we are following God's Word, living by faith and praying for people like you - who are truly the ones who are blind."

Obviously it worked on you...

Hope -- your Christian God does not seem "just and merciful." When I was a teenager, I was interested in becoming Christian, but as I read the bible and heard it interpreted by others, I could not get past the way your God seemed full of vengeful and petty emotions. He did not seem like a God of wisdom, justice and love.

For example, in Exodus 20:2-17, God says that people should not have any other gods or make idols. God says, "You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me." This seems very wrong to me. A fair god would judge each individual according to their own actions. Why should children be punished for the fact that their parents, grandparents or great-grandparents disobeyed one of God's commandments? This passage alone shows a God who is not just, loving and merciful.

Goodbye, holier-than-us...

Hope writes:

You mock those who are at peace

First off Hope, based on your tone in this post you do not seem to be at peace. In fact you seem quite angry. If your sure of your beliefs truely be at peace with it, even if you are a minority (or just appear to be).

Second, I will agree that a minority of the proclaimed atheists that have used less than kind words and/or tone in their replies. However the majority have been attempting to discuss the matter. Which makes sense since this is a discussion board after all. Discussing opposing viewpoints is not mocking one's beliefs.

Third, your post unfortuntely highlights my point, which is: The majority of people of faith no longer seem willing to or have the ability to discuss their point of view in a logical reasonable manner. Not a very effective way to bring us non-believers into the flock. The overly strident posts such as the one I'm replying to honestly give you the apprearance of being rather radical, which I'm sure you are not. Your posts should not give us this impression. It should reenforce what you beleive to be true.

hope, go read your bible first and the come in here to discuss. as the survey revealed, you are very ignorant regarding on what your religion really teaches. the day you actually read the bible and apply logic, common sense and your own moral, (not god's) you'll be on this side. me as a former christian testify, that reading the bible as it really is and says, is the best way to become an atheist.

good luck with your faith based beliefs.

So let me get this straight, my belief that I will one day go to heaven, if I live by the word of Jesus is a bad thing? So I have an awesome feeling that one day I will live in paradise for eternity. I believe that and it makes me happy. If I die and there is not heaven, I won't know any different. However, if there Heaven then I will be in bliss.

I just don't see the downside. Do explain the negative effects of that belief.

You shouldn't demonize people with faith and belief, nor write them all off as uneducated or ignorant.

Do you have proof that Christians don't go to heaven when they die?

Rodney- allow me to play devil's advocate here...

Do you have proof that Christians go to heaven when they die?

See...neither question has a definitive answer.

Answer my question then. What is the downside of my belief?

It is simple Iceman, your belief is predicated on being forgiven for everything you do, that alone is enough to skew your thought process and actions. This is why so many "christians" care so little about the environment, or any number of issues that need to be addressed. You can't put your head in the sand and expect god will take care of everything or forgive you for everything you have done, adults must take responsibility for their actions. The church says you don't have to.

Christians belive in the myth of right and wrong. There is no such thing as right or wrong only human experience. Christians also believe they are more special than other beings or rocks or dirt or air. Christians are not special. Nor is anything special. We just are.

It takes faith to believe in a lie. Truth on the other hand does't care weather you believe or not. It's a lot like gravity. It just is.

Christians care little about the environment and we don't take responsibility for our actions. The Church says we don't have to.

I'm sure that is rooted in fact.

You have to ask to be forgiven and truly mean it. You are not just handed forgiveness.

You have to ask to be forgiven and truly mean it. You are not just handed forgiveness.

Thank you, no that is the true belief.

I mean really? I care about the environment, but you know what truly holds it back? Greed, the environment is ranked high on my list. As far as statements of brainwashing:

"To think is to say no"

I just say no, to the "theory" that there is no God. I am Catholic, because I agree with Jesus's teachings, the original teachings and before anyone says anything about being brainwashed, than let me ask you this, Why are you American? Why do many support Capitalism vs. Socialism? Choosing to agree the a certain belief may be right is no different.

I do not think I am better than anyone else.

That's the problem with people that don't understand God. The Jews made the same mistake. They understood laws but didn't understand grace. Most of what seems like "God's judgement against sinners" is found as a cruel God, but you forget that the same God was crucified because of his mercy and love for you. As far as the curse of generations it's not what God is doing to the generations it is what the choices of walking away from him does to the generations that follow. Hello, can you atheist not see what kayos without God's guidance has caused to the generations of those that have turned their backs on him?

Vanessa,

Please understand I mean no disrespect, but was it God that was crucified or was it Jesus? If God is guiding mankind, why are we in such a mess? Why are there so many different Gods? Why should a person believe in one God over another? Pretty much all religions condemn anyone who does not believe in their interpretation of God so what makes one religion more believable than the other?

Since I was baptized at the age of 9, I've sort of leaned away from religion because of all the turmoil, animosity, greed, and disagreements amongst religious leaders. Corruption in the churches, hat passing to the point of extreme. TV evangelists that make a mockery out of their own religion.

Religion has just become too convoluted.