(Sigh.)

It's not a mosque, it's a community center with a prayer room in it.

Muslims did not have any "victory" when the WTC came down. The attack was blamed on Muslims extremists. It was no more a victory for Muslims than the Oklahoma City bombing by Timothy McVeigh was a victory for Christians or Scots.

People who are ranting along these lines must be the thickest people alive.

Just to set the record straight, Timothy McVeigh called himself an agnostic, although he did have a conversion prior to his execution. As far as the victory mosque at ground zero, perhaps the 'thickest people alive' know more about the history of Islam than do you. (Sigh)

It's not a mosque, it's a community center with a prayer room in it.

uh, that's kind of the definition of a mosque

and keep in mind, it will have segregated male and female prayer rooms on separate floors too

Couldn't they just conference call and save a little time and money?

You need to quit using the McVeigh thing...he was a home grown terrorist, we captured and punished him...if the muslims were capturing and punishing their terrorists as we do ours, there would not be any problems between us. Since they refuse to hunt down and punish their terrorists, how can we be expected to trust them? They condone it with their silence and inaction!

If the imam was really interested in building a bridge of acceptance for "MODERATE Islam" in this country then why not "RESPECT" the WISHES of the MAJORITY of the AMERICAN PEOPLE and not build this very divisive project.

Why did he make threats in his last interview that if the project did not go forward then there would be "EXPLOSIVE RESULTS". Why is he trying to scare this country into SUBMITTING to his will with treats of violence, so much for being MODERATE, sounds more like radical islam to me.

There were Muslim prayer centers in the Trade Towers when they were attacked, that fact has only been recently made known. It would also be nice to know if their were Jewish and Christian centers in the towers. So to the Muslim community, Hold Your Ground, don't give in to the mob. For what its worth this advice comes from an infidel; one who can't read a line in the Bible without having serious reservations.

You need to quit using the McVeigh thing...he was a home grown terrorist, we captured and punished him...if the muslims were capturing and punishing their terrorists as we do ours, there would not be any problems between us. Since they refuse to hunt down and punish their terrorists, how can we be expected to trust them? They condone it with their silence and inaction!

I am continually amazed at how dense the "Muslims don't do anything" crowd are. All of the high-level terrorists that we captured in Pakistan were, guess what...wait for it...wait for it...Captured by the help of the Pakistanis. Have you ever looked at a map of Afghanistan? How do you suppose our troops get there? Through Iran? Or...do you suppose they might go in through Pakistan?

In the US and elsewhere, pretty much every Muslim leader (except the crazies, of course), have condemned terrorism in all of its forms. Yet to you, they are all "silent", despite the fact that they are as often the target of terrorism for helping us as we are.

Bryon, then why hasn't Pakistan convicted a terrorist in over 3 years? and the Pakistan government would not cooperate to allow the US army to follow the Taliban beyond the Afghan border, they've been sheltering terrorists and weak on condemning them.

So, my big question is... where does "Ground Zero" end? The edges of Manhattan? NY City Limits? Somewhere in Kansas?

"Ground Zero", that is the World Trade Center is a VERY STRICTLY DEFINED GEOGRAPHIC AREA.

This Mosque ISN'T AT, ON, UNDER, OVER, or IMMEDIATELY ADJACENT TO the World Trade Center.

If they were trying to build a Mosque on the top floor of 1 World Trade Center, then yes, whine, cry, and throw a fit all you want... you have somewhat of a leg to stand on.

BUT THIS IS BLOCKS AWAY!

Stop disrespecting the memory of those who died that day by artificially expanding the grounds of the World Trade Center to selfishly serve your own xenophobic feelings!

This whole BS is horribly insulting to those who lost their lives.

We live in a FREE COUNTRY WHERE FREEDOM OF RELIGION IS A PRINCIPLE RIGHT! Let's start acting like it!

These islamic people are just wolves in a sheeps clothing, they are starting to stir the pot and starting to create havoc here in the US. They have no interest in pleasing the majority of Americans who are against this Mosque, they are only interested in rubbing it in. That they can build their Mosque wherever they want in the USA but never a church in Saudi Arabia. Pathetic intolerant people. It makes me seeth in anger the longer this discussions go on. There is only one thing you can discern from these religion and its people, whether they're terrorist or not thier only interest is to expand their hateful religion and create confusion and discord wherever they take root. America be warned, here comes the Islamics. Be ready.

Why did he make threats in his last interview that if the project did not go forward then there would be "EXPLOSIVE RESULTS".

I think you need to understand what the definition of a "threat" is. A threat is something that the person making the statements says they will do. If, on the other hand, he says that Muslims will not like it if he is forced to move the mosque, then he is simply stating reality. Are you really that threatened by reality?

The "explosion" he warned about was, quite correctly, that the opinion of Muslims will become inflammed. He's right. If you think Muslims all over the world are going to like the idea that a mosque was forced to move, then you're smoking something.

Why is he trying to scare this country into SUBMITTING to his will with treats of violence, so much for being MODERATE, sounds more like radical islam to me.

You mean he's forcing you to submit to the idea of him having the right to do whatever he wants on his property?

I don't know whether you have thought this through or not, but that is exactly how a bully operates. The bully never says that he's being threatening or anything. He is always the threatened one...like being threatened by the idea of people minding their own business.

Ridiculous and laughable as your points are, unfortunately, this is how Nazism started. The Jews were being threatening to the poor Nazis, so obviously they had to be dealt with. Just as the Muslims are now being nasty to you by building on their own property. How somehow this is a "victory" mosque, as if moderate Islam is looking for a victory against anything. But if it is a victory mosque, then the moderates are also at war against the rest of America, so it's OK to round them up, put them into concentration camps, and turn them into soap and lampshades.

Byron the fact that they keep blowing each other up on a near daily bases should speak volumes as to why we need to be careful about the continued spread of racial islam in this country. This imam is not MODERATE in any why shape or form, he and his partners have said that America was partly to blame for 9-11, SAY WHAT, HOW? (and don't say he didn't say that because it is on tape)

Time square car bomb, underwear bomber, shoe bomber, 9-11 attacks, Fort Hood shootings plus many others, unless you want to live in a country where this happens a lot more often then we need to heed the actions of other countries trying to slow down the spread of islam in their countries.

Byron, you are truly naive about how middle eastern politics work. Not going to try to convince you of that fact, because you start from a point so far from reality, it is pointless. As someone who has studied Middle Eastern politics extensively (I have a degree in it), to say that these countries stand up to terrorists is laughable. These are the same countries where people are arrested for speaking out against the government, for committing adultry (in reality they are raped), etc. Only after extreme pressure from the US do they "throw us a bone" and ceremonially arrest a few people. If they really wanted to crack down on terrorists, they could and would. The fact remains that this ideology remains popular among the masses, and any action against them by government would destabilize the country. So yes, they mostly turn a blind eye and provide tacit approval through inaction.

cascadia-586084 parts from one of the hijacked planes went through the roof of this building, you don't get more Ground Zero than that,.

Byron he made several poorly veiled threats in his interview, he is not stupid enough to come out and make direct threats, but none the less they were threats. Please ask yourself why so many other countries are trying to slow down the spread of islam in their countries, and we would do well to heed their example.

Here is another question. Will pork be on the menu at the culinary school?

Byron

The imam said that if they are forced to move to another site that there could be problems. That is a threat!!! All that clown needs to do is tell his people that out of respect for American citizens he is going to move to another location. Pretty simple. The imam is being a troublemaker.

if it is a victory mosque, then... it's OK to round them up, put them into concentration camps, and turn them into soap and lampshades.

Careful what you suggest Byron, some folks on here might be inclined to take you seriously.

In reply to Byron 1.8; if we hadn't been there, they would have done nothing. They need to start their own terrorist hunting club. Hunt them down, punish them with execution or life imprisonment, no slapping of the hands and turning them loose. They will never do this, you want to know why? Because then the kids that they are tricking into the suicide bombings would get disillusioned and quit doing it. Then their hope of spreading islam and sharia worldwide would come to a drop dead halt! No more suicide bombings, no more terror, no more threats and intimidation!

@Byron Nazism? are you retarded. Its fascism. You lost all credibility in my book.

There are a lot of atheists, former Christians, who, though basing their support for the NYC mosque on the assertion that the constitution protects freedom of religion, really are just glad to antagonize their Christian adversaries. From their point of view, Islam is just AS bad as Christianity, so protests by Christians against the NYC Community Center (a.k.a Mosque) are seen as xenophobic, racist, hypocritical, e.t.c. These Atheists are just seizing another opportunity to confirm that their religious adversaries are "irrational" people.

I am an Atheist too, but I am an EX-Muslim. I have more familiarity with Islam than my fellow Ex-Christian Atheists, and roughly equal familiarity with Christianity (I went to a Christian school). At face value, the Bible and the Quran are equally corrupt. In practice, however, Christians are VERY different from Muslims. Christians have a long and established tradition of rethinking, reforming, re-imagining their relationship with God, despite what the Bible says. The most honest among them won't tell you one particular brand of the Bible is the total and complete word of God. What they will say is that the Bible is "inspired" by God, which is an euphemism for: "some things in there are inspiring, and some other things are just pure savagery."

Muslims, on the other hand, are not like these Christians, and they never will be. Here's why: Islam was born during a period of time when all the criticisms of Judaism and Christianity, including the inherent inconsistencies and errors of the books, were already widely known. The writers of the Quran already knew what their competition was. When you read the Quran, you notice that it criticizes Jews and Christians alot, it criticizes the integrity of their books, one example being how it undermines the crucifixion of Christ (actually, it flatly denies it ever happened). The Quran is, essentially, a literary one-upmanship against the Bible and the Torah. The Quran doesn't completely disregard the Torah and the Bible. It acknowledges that their earlier versions were the complete and unaltered words of God, but that these books have been edited and corrupted, and their followers led astray. The Quran, however, says that it is the FINAL, UNALTERED, LETTER FOR LETTER word of God and Muhammad is the FINAL messenger of God to mankind. The sense of superiority Muslims feel over every follower of every other faith comes from this delusion that they have the most up-to-date word of God by their side.

Muslims, unlike Christians, do not have the luxury of picking and choosing which parts of the Quran they want to follow. The Quran specifically admonishes those who do this, calling them *doubters.* You're either ALL IN or ALL OUT, and there is no IN-BETWEEN like Modern Christianity. Modern day Muslims are like the Christians of the Roman era who took a lot more of the Bible literally as modern Muslims take the Quran literally. However, for Muslims, there is no hope of reform. There is no way for them to put one foot in Islam, and the second foot in democracy/human rights.

Take note, though, that there are Muslims who are trying to practice Islam like modern Christians do. They like to pick and choose the good parts of the Quran and the hadiths, but they never discuss or encourage the savagery, the brutality, the madness that makes up the rest of these books. Some of these people are my closest of friends, and their hospitality and sense of decency will astound you, their generosity and selflessness will embarrass you.

These are your "Moderate Muslims," you're doomed if you trust them, and here is why: They are afflicted with cognitive dissonance! Despite their outward behavior, deep inside these are extremely confused people. They want to embrace freedom, democracy, and human-rights, they want to shun savagery, but they're not ready to risk Allah's wrath. Most of these people, like the rest of us, are quite capable of living with this cognitive dissonance until the day they die, and so they forever put off resolving it. Sometimes, however, this doesn't happen. Through a highly traumatic event (like 9/11), an habitually inquisitive/thoughtful disposition, or just by mere accident of circumstances, some moderate Muslims will have to face up to their cognitive dissonance and resolve to come to a resolution. When they come to this resolution, they will turn in only ONE of two possible directions:

1) They become an Ex-Muslim Christian, Atheist, or end up adopting some other philosophy besides Islam. Examples are Ayaan Hirsi Ali (Atheist), Me (Atheist), and many of the members of the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain (Mostly Atheists).

2) They become what westerners describe as "Muslim fanatic," a term which, if you ask me, is nothing short of a pleonasm because the true Muslim, by the commandment of the Quran, has no other alternative but to be a fanatic as soon as he embraces ALL of the Quran and not just the part he's comfortable with. These are your nice, next-door neighbor type of Muslims who always say hi to you every morning, are former members of the "council on interfaith dialogue," children of Multi-millionaires. They are the folks who used to be your intellectual construct of a "Moderate Muslim" until you learned that they just blew themselves up somewhere and killed dozens of People. The most notable examples are the underpants bomber (Abdul Mutallab), and the Times square bomber (he had an MBA by the way).

My opposition to the NYC "Commmunity Center" is secondary to what I really want: For Muslims all over the world to face up to their cognitive dissonance and pick their side so we can know who our enemies really are. Those who take all the Quran and hadiths literally are the enemies of humanity

Ten Obvious Reasons Why
Islam is NOT a Religion of Peace

#1
14,000 deadly terror attacks committed explicitly in the name of Islam in just the last eight years. (Other religions combined for perhaps a dozen (12) or so).

#2
Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, had people killed for insulting him or criticizing his religion. This included women. Muslims are told to emulate the example of Muhammad.

#3

Muhammad said in many places that he has been "ordered by Allah to fight men until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is his messenger." In the last nine years of his life, he ordered no less than 65 military campaigns to do exactly that.

Muhammad inspired his men to war with the basest of motives, using captured loot, sex and a gluttonous paradise as incentives. He beheaded captives, enslaved children and raped women captured in battle. Again, Muslims are told to emulate the example of Muhammad.

#4

After Muhammad died, the people who lived with him, and knew his religion best, immediately fell into war with each other.

Fatima, Muhammad's favorite daughter, survived the early years at Mecca safe and sound, yet died of stress from the persecution of fellow Muslims only six months after her father died.

Fatima's husband Ali, who was the second second convert to Islam and was raised like a son to Muhammad, fought a civil war against an army raised by Aisha, Muhammad's favorite wife - and one whom he had said was a "perfect woman." 10,000 Muslims were killed in a single battle, waged less than 25 years after Muhammad's death.

Three of the first four Muslim rulers (caliphs) were murdered. All of them were among Muhammad's closest companions. The third caliph was killed by allies of the son of the first (who was murdered by the fifth caliph a few years later, then wrapped in the skin of a dead donkey and burned). The fourth caliph (Ali) was stabbed to death after a bitter dispute with the fifth. The fifth caliph went on to poison one of Muhammad's two favorite grandsons. The other grandson was later beheaded by the sixth caliph.

The infighting and power struggles between Muhammad's family members, closest companions and their children only intensified with time. Within 50 short years of Muhammad's death, even the Kaaba, which had stood for centuries under pagan religion, lay in ruins from internal Muslim war...

And that's just the fate of those within the house of Islam!

#5
Muhammad directed Muslims to wage war on other religions and bring them under submission to Islam. Within the first few decades following his death, his Arabian companions invaded and conquered Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist and Zoroastrian lands.
A mere 25 years after Muhammad's death, Muslim armies had captured land and people within the borders of over 28 modern countries outside of Saudi Arabia.

#6

Muslims continued their Jihad against other religions for 1400 years, checked only by the ability of non-Muslims to defend themselves. To this day, not a week goes by that Islamic fundamentalists do not attempt to kill Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists explicitly in the name of Allah.

None of these other religions are at war with each other.

#7
Islam is the only religion that has to retain its membership by threatening to kill anyone who leaves. This is according to the example set by Muhammad.

#8
Islam teaches that non-Muslims are less than fully human. Muhammad said that Muslims can be put to death for murder, but that a Muslim could never be put to death for killing a non-Muslim.

#9

The Qur'an never once speaks of Allah's love for non-Muslims, but it speaks of Allah's cruelty toward and hatred of non-Muslims more than 500 times.

#10

"Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!"
(The last words from the cockpit of Flight 93)

Marie Pierce... Muslims that commit terrorism that are from America are home grown......DC sniper.....muslim, american and former US armed forces. HOME GROWN! What do they (Park51 group) have to with terrorist? Before you answer, be carefull not to make a generalization that can link you the same way to Mc Veigh or any other hateful nut-bag. You can't blame whites for the actions of the KKK therefore you can't blame all muslims for the acts of the 9/11 Terrorist. Put the blame were it needs to be....on the Al'Queda

This is for Baldman:

You have provided one of the most concise explanations of moderate vs. radical muslims that I have read to date. I can appreciate the dichotomy and the cognitive dissonance, rather like going from a belief in God to Atheism. I would like to extend tolerance towards muslim woman because it is my impression that if give the opportunity many would embrace the freedom of restriction from Sharia law. I can remember being in church, a kid, and told what a sinner I was. I hadn't lived long enough to BE a sinner but I was afraid that God wouldn't love me if I sinned so I decided to be 'good'.

As an adult when confronted with the 'believe in me" or face eternal damnation...well, I got a real good opportunity to decide whether I wanted to be 'chosen' while others were damned and opted to think for myself. I am not an atheist but I do believe in God. A God of my own understanding.

I rail against intolerance, violence and bullying. I deeply distrust and shun those who perpetrate such behaviours and I deeply distrust Imam Rauf and others of his ilk and, until proven otherwise I will distrust adherents to Islam...

Deborah Z-1802803 shut up. America does not belong to you. Muslims (who are Americans) have a right just as anyone else to build a house of worship. Maybe you should shut up ad sto rubbing your nose into the Mosque issue.

Stupid Bri-1732738

10 reasons Chrsitianity is not a religion of peace

1) Black Chattel Slavery

2) Genocide of Native Americans (throughout the Americas)

3) Colonialization of the continent of Africa

4) Colonization of India

5) Colonization of Asia

6) World War I

7) World War II

8) Korean War/Vietnam War (2 for 1)

9) Jewish Holocaust

10) Global victimization of youth by the Catholic Church

All these these and many more happened and are happening under the auspices of so called Christians.

Before anyone (who has sense) even comments I know all of this crap is just stupid. I just wanted to point out that no nation no people and no religion on Earth today is without sin. We should be working and praying together to regain favor with the one true and living God. And if you don't believe you should be working to make a better world anyway.

Please people let's stop spewing stupidity like Stupid Bri-1732738.

Thank You, Baldman for your excellent post at at #1.21.

Getting very tired of the low life libs who are supporting the Twin Towers victory monument.

keep on, we'll get around to you.

There are plenty of mosques

The nearest mosque to this site is so overcrowded that Friday Prayers used to spill into the sidewalk due to lack of space. Now that they pray in a damaged building scheduled for demolition, they have lots of room.

dnimerick: Neither you nor Carnelian said anything about Islamic history. Must you be so thick headed?

Mateo: It cannot be called a Mosque because it is set to include a restaurant and commercial enterprises, which removes it's ability to be tax free as well disqualifying it from being a Mosque. That is why it is a community center. Also, it contains prayer space for other faiths, also removing it's claim of being only a mosque.

Marie: They don't hunt their own terrorists for a very simple reason. They are third world countries. They can barely capture regular criminals, let alone well armed extremist groups. Al Qaeda, through drug money, has better weapons than the local military.

Texansaints: Saudi Arabia is a Theocracy in a Third world country and you want us to act like them? You want us to treat our citizens the same way a Third World country does? Then move there and let us be tolerant of other peoples faiths.

Robob: Angry people from a third world country attack us due to our foreign policy and you want to punish American Muslims? Does that mean since the Lords Resistance Army kills in the name of Jesus Christ in a Third World country we can hate American Christians?

Robob: Pieces of rubble of many different sizes were blasted onto the roof of almost every building for 4 blocks, should we close all businesses in a 4 block radius and dedicate the whole place as sacred ground? Maybe every place that some of the ashes fell? Should we try to cripple the economy of Manhattan, just to show those terrorists they won? The original 16 acres isn't enough?

Baldman: I'm sorry you were in a tough denomination of Islam. First off, I am an Atheist trying to stop all the hatred and intolerance. I have pointed out before, there are over a billion wonderful and good Christians out there that I wouldn't want to rob of their beliefs. There are a few million who spread hatred, and I fight them, as every decent human being should.

Second, there are many branches of Islam, as you must be aware, just as there are many denominations of Christianity. The fact that there are many denominations means that there is different amounts of picking and choosing, and different methods of interpretation. But you insist that there is no such "picking and choosing", which makes me wonder which denomination you were. That same system exists in Christianity. All other denominations are considered heretics, and only recently have many of them been getting along better. And the denomination of Islam I see in my few Muslim friends is far more tolerant and open and much less savage than you make Islam sound.

bri- Links to hate sites and false flag sites? You couldn't find any secular sites to back up your terrorism tally? I can link you to secular sites that point out the over 32,000 civilians murdered by Christians in the last 20 years. Stop pointing out centuries old atrocities or those occuring out of Third world corruption and poverty. All the Abrahamic religions have those sins so it's unfair to attack Muslims for them. Also, you say only Muslims are doing these things. How about anti-semitism in Coptic Christians, just to start. Again I mention the Lords Resistance Army, and how about the "Christian Identity"?

Also, stop trying to pick through someone's religious text for excuses to hate. I could use that method to destroy Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Chrisianity contains nearly identical sins in the Bible, if not worse.

Mars: That's the list you come up with? In WW1 the arguably worst massacre was the genocide of Christians by the Ottoman empire (one of the Central powers with Germany and Austria Hungary) due to fear they would turn on them when they fought Russia, and if anything it should be on Bri's list. You separate the Holocaust from WW2? And I assume by "colonization" of China you mean the Opium wars? And the Child abuse scandal is pretty weak. Where are the major modern Christian genocides? Why not mention the Bosnian war? Or the Lords Resistance Army? Or the Rwandan conflict? You know, the recent atrocities by Christians. I am disappointed in you.

Johnny

keep on, we'll get around to you?

Really? What are you gonna do, dazzle me with your well thought out retort? Maybe try to pass a law making it illegal for liberals to marry? Or are you just gonna hold up a sign while wearing a funny hat and wish we could go back to the old days before Social Security, Womens Suffrage and the 13th and 14th ammendments?

"If I knew this would happen, that this would cause this kind of pain, I wouldn't have done it," Rauf, 61, said in an interview with CNN's Soledad O'Brien on "Larry King Live" Wednesday evening.

Really Raulf? Well since you know it NOW do not go ahead with it! But instead you use the excuse that moving it now will "INFLAME" Muslims and they will "EXPLODE" with anger. So in other words you are afraid of Muslims and their actions should you go against their wishes?

Mygirl1, Annie,

Thank you. Took a while to write that, glad people read it.

Dakaiser,

There aren't that many denominations of Islam. You have the Sunnis (85-88% of Muslims), you have the Shia (10%), and some other tiny obscure varieties like the Sufi's, the Ahmadiyas, e.t.c. These comprise less than 3% of the world's 1.5 billion Muslims. The differences between the two main sects, Sunni and Shia, are mostly political, not theological, having to do with who should've succeeded Muhammad (I won't go into details here) after his death. Shia and Sunnis both believe the Quran is 100% the word of Allah (though some Shias think that the Quran is not complete, that there are still additional chapters that were somehow misplaced). There are also some disagreements about whether some Hadiths should be considered authentic, but such differences are not uncommon, even between different Sunni scholars.

What I'm trying to say is that 97% of Muslims view Islam as Quran + Sahih Buhari hadiths (again, some minor disagreements over whether certain Sahih Buhari hadiths should be trusted).

The other 3% of Muslims are so far away in theological principles from the main stream Muslims that you could almost say they've created a new religion, and I would be dumbfounded to find any of these individuals blowing up a mosque. I'm not worried about these guys, it's the other 97% (Shia and Sunni) that I'm worried about. If your friend is a Sufi or an Ahmadiya then I have no problems with him. Chances are, though, that he's not.

While most Muslims do not speak Arabic, and while many do not even know the full details of what the Quran says, I would be dumbfounded if you found a Sunni or Shia who doesn't believe the Quran is the absolute, 100% word of God. In this affirmation that the Quran is 100% the word of Allah, 97% of Muslims are united. Whatever disagreements they may have over who should've succeeded Muhammad, whether certain Sahih Bukhari hadiths should be considered authentic, or whether there are still more to the Quran are relatively minor and irrelevant to the matter at hand since all are united in believing the Quran is 100% the word of Allah.

Lastly, I must be careful to make one final distinction. The barrage of criticisms that Islam has come under in recent yrs has spurred on Islamic apologetics to dilute the English translation of the Quran. Verses that would irate the liberal-minded man have been diluted to seem less barbaric. Case in point, the verse allowing men to beat their women if she misbehaves has been diluted to mean such beatings should be done lightly with something like a tooth-brush, and that it should not leave any marks. These "appended" interpretations are fairly recent, and they are not directly implied by the original Arabic reading of the Quran. Bri, in post 6.9, explains this "translation game" a little better than I think I could.

If I can tell that these efforts are recent, apologetic, and flatly disingenuous, Muslims who have no incentive to impress the liberal probably have little difficulty sorting through the bull@!$%# as well. Yet, such efforts are still to be lauded as a starting point. I believe there is also a feminist in Malaysia who is also reinterpreting the ENTIRE Quran in a way that is more "friendly" to women. If anyone buys it, I'm all for it. The truth though, is that there aren't a lot of Muslims interested in these re-interpreted Qurans, and many rightly view them with suspicion. For the most part, Muslims around the world aren't in much disagreement over what the Quran says.

Thank you, Baldman, that is much better.

Why don't you elaborate on the fact that the Sunni are further divided into smaller branches. For example, the ones attacking girls schools are generally Wahhabism, branched off of the Hanbali Sunnis? That is similar to saying Westboro Baptist is a branch of Baptist Church denomination of Christianity. How can you lump 1.3 billion people all in the same group so easily?

Let me elaborate on the variations in Madh'hab among the Sunni. The Hanafi, the largest of the groups of Sunni are also the most liberal and most willing to bring reason and logic to their faith. Then there are the ultra conservative minority among the Sunni, the Hanbali, that hold to the old ways of stonings and restricting the teaching of women. That is not the same as "most Sunni Muslims".

And to show you that they don't all believe the exact same teachings, like you just claimed, how about this:

It is legal in Iran for women to go to school, in fact they comprise half of the university incoming students. Iran is a Theocratic Republic, and as such it should have the same restrictions on women as other Islamic Theocracies. But in Saudi Arabia a woman cannot leave the house without a man's approval.

In Afghanistan girls are allowed to go to school in spite of the overwhelming Muslim religious majority, but the Wahhabi attacked a young girls school with poison gas because their version of Islam forbids women learning anything but the Quran.

And in the United States: non-Muslims can enter a Muslim prayer room, women are allowed to reveal their elbows and knees in public (just not in their mosque), and much more.

How can you honestly say that Islamic beliefs are not as diverse as Christian beliefs? There are such obvious and large variations in Islamic cultures and all still claim to be devout followers. And if they aren't in disagreement about what it says, why do they attack each other over differences in interpretation?

Oh, and I don't care what any piece of paper 1,500 years old could be interpreted to say. I don't care if their text includes a line that says "all non-believers should be nailed to a cross and have a pine cone shoved up their..." well, you get the idea. I care about how they act today. And American Muslims are generally good people. In fact, I get more tolerance for my beliefs from Muslims than from Christians. Fine, the culture in the Middle East is terrible and it happens to be the core of the Islamic society. The religion is not the direction you should point the blame. You might think so, until you see that same religion living peacefully with other religions in a developed nation.

JH sez: "The imam said that if they are forced to move to another site that there could be problems. That is a threat!!!"

General Petraus said if that idiot in Florida burned the Quran, there could be problems. Was he threatening us too? Or merely pointing out the ramifications?

The Sunni branch of Islam, comprising of over 87% of Muslims, is divided into just four schools of thought: Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, and Hanbali. Every Muslim is aware of these different schools of thought, and all are to be respected. In-fighting among Sunnis are rare and when they do occur, they're not occurring because of differences in interpretation.

Furthermore, to claim that these 4 schools of thought have "different" interpretations of the Quran is a bit misleading. All four schools are united in affirming the supremacy of the Quran in all religious matters. For matters which are not directly elaborated in the Quran, all four schools are again united in using the practices of the prophet (Sunnah) as guiding light. The most authoritative source of the Sunnah are the hadiths, and while there are some disputes regarding the authenticity of certain hadiths, most of them are accepted across all schools of thought. Where they begin to really differ is whether, in addition to the Quran and Sunnah, other means should be employed in deriving Islamic law. The Hanbalis, from which the Wahabists originate, are unique in not going any further than the Quran and the Sunnah. They are the most "conservative" of these groups. Of the three remaining schools of thought, some schools emphasize consensus of the learned scholars, recorded practices of the so called "best of generations (first three generations of Muslims who resided in Medina)," use of syllogistic reasoning, e.t.c. While they may differ in how certain religious tenets should be observed, like whether Qunut should only be recited in the morning prayer, whether one should look straight ahead at eye-level or down on the spot where you plan to bow your head when praying, whether bleeding or touching a member of the opposite sex invalidates one's ablution, these differences are remarkably minor, and I've never heard them being used as a justification for killing fellow Sunni Muslims. Most, if not all of the religiously tinged Muslim In-fighting is Shia vs. Sunni.

Present society obviously presents a wide range of issues which are not directly addressed by the Quran, or for which the prophet did not set a clear example on how they should be handled. In some of these matters, such as whether a woman can be head of state, the Quran simply fails to address them, and the hadiths can lend support to either side of the argument depending on the one you read and how you read them. Similarly, matters regarding whether women should be able to drive or go to school, how much of their body they should really cover, are not directly addressed in the Quran. Again, the hadiths are conflicting or simply unclear, and how one individual, let alone a society or a school of thought ends up adjudicating such issues is almost unpredictable. These are the areas where Muslims are going to *differ* in how they practice Islam, but take note, however, that these differences aren't coming from different "interpretations" of the Quran. For matters which are directly addressed by the Quran, such as the invocation to fight the unbelievers until they proclaim Islam or retain their former religion & pay Jizzya in willing submission to an Islamic state, all four schools of thought think exactly the same thing.

"Moderate Muslims," as I discussed in post 1.21, might not act in accordance with the full commands of the Quran. This is the result of cognitive dissonance, not from an enlightened/different interpretation of the Quran. Many are able to live with this dissonance until they die, while others are forced to resolve it and come down on one side or the other. For crying out loud, there are "Moderate Muslims" in the U.S. military, gunning down insurgents and dieing side by side with their blue-eyed, blond hair Caucasian comrades. They are still living with this cognitive dissonance, and God help us all if/when they decide to resolve it. If you feel secure living with people whose loyalties are so arbitrary and unpredictable, that's your cup of tea. For reasons which I hope I have elucidated clearly in post 1.21, I do not trust these folks. I want Moderate Muslims to stop telling me they stand for human rights, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and democracy, while in the same breath they profess that the Quran is the unerring word of Allah. I am not completely convinced of their gesture to add space for other faiths in their community center while, when it is time for prayer, they will be bowing down in the direction of Mecca, a city which explicitly prohibits entry of non-Muslims.

Moderate Islam is a fragile and intellectually untenable position. If they manage to live with this cognitive dissonance until the day they meet their death, bravo! Only then can we be sure that they were no threat to us. If they are forced to resolve it before they die, God help us all. The Fort hood shooter is one stunning example of a man who had to resolve his cognitive dissonance, and I shouldn't have to emphasize how horrible that turned out. Here is a man who was really trying to live the "moderate Muslim" delusion. He went to medical school, got his doctorate, joined an ALL-VOLUNTEER Army, then suddenly he decides to shoot his buddies to death. This wasn't the work of a "secret Al-qaeda" agent who infiltrated our military. Here you have a man who was pushed by circumstances to pick a side, after he realized he could no longer simultaneously serve two masters. A very intelligent man who could no longer allow himself to be intoxicated with the "moderate muslim" delusion, he saw through the bs, willingly sought the counsel of both "moderate Imams" in the U.S. and "true Imams" outside of the U.S., made his decision, and we all suffered the consequences.

OMG this must be a miracle. The mute Muslims have found their voice. Where were these so called moderate muslims for 9 years since war was declared by their terrorist brothers?

Not a peep, not an not a condemnation of those who murdered in the name of Allah. And not an apology for the Americans who lost their lives and others who lost their loved ones. Where have they been, cowering under their prayer rugs?

I for one do not fear that slum lord imam Rauf's threat, I simply detest his arrogance. Do tell, Do some of you gullible BS swallower's want to trust him like many did that sick SOB major at FT. Hood? ... Well I don't, nor do I trust his liberal duped followers.

I wanted to believe that the majority of Muslims condemned what happened on 9-11-01 and other acts of violence committed by their loony muslim brothers, but after 9 years of mute response; to hell with the lot of them. They're offended??? Damn, they are offensive.

They're Americans??? Americans believe that the Constitution is the law not some convoluted Sharia law they call a religion. Oh they have their right under our law, but they are far from being right with their thinly veiled intent of insulting our irreplaceable loss of innocent lives.

They get their prayer rugs in a knot because some obscure preacher threatens to burn books, which didn't happen. Did they forget what did happen is 3000 people were burned to death.

Baldman: First of all I to am a bald man, but that is beside the point. Your posts have been very thoughtful and appreciated and I wish I had time to really research this subject matter. I now identify myself as an atheist - for technical reasons - even though I was born and raised catholic in the Midwest. When I took part in Catholic grammar school, religious education was based on the Baltimore Catechism rather than the Bible. I know almost next to nothing about the Quran but had heard that it differed from the Bible in that the Bible is called the inspired word of God while the word of the Quran were supposedly pass from God to Mohammad via the angel Gabriel. As one who finds that our part in existence is a special case, existence takes place on the knife edge of time, existence may have been sent on its way by God, but existence provided no provision for heaven, hell, and other magical creatures such as angels and demons. I therefore view the foundations of most religions as suspect and don't see what the brouhaha is all about. Still I see no reason why the plans for the community center should not proceed as planned. If people need to find a large part of their identity in religion, I don't see why that should be opposed as long as I may be allowed to nourish my identity outside of religion.

wje37,

I use Baldman because I predict I will be bald, due to a freak accident some yrs ago. As of the present moment, I still have most of my hair. In fact, I can almost see my future: I'm going to be that short, bald professor walking the halls of some medical school's teaching hospital at 2am, 30 yrs from now.

Now back to the topic. I think calling Islam a religion is a terrible misnomer. More appropriately, it is a totalitarian Ideology with spiritual, legal, political, and military components. When most people say Islam, they only refer to the spiritual components of the Ideology. Muslims themselves aren't shy to tell you that Islam isn't just a religion, but rather, a "complete way of life." Take a hint. I venture to guess that those who are defending construction of this community center aren't trying to indicate their approval of Shariah law, up to and including permissibility of sex with nine-year old girls. I have no problems with people who are only interested in praying 5 times a day, giving alms to the poor, fasting during Ramadan, and making pilgrimages to mecca. Muslims who explicitly proclaim that this is the only aspect of Islam they're interested in can go ahead and build a mosque on Ground Zero itself because they pose no threat to us, and their right to do so is protected under the constitution. To do this, however, would require that these hypothetical group of Muslims flatly reject several injunctions in the Quran and hadiths, and according to the Quran, you're not a true Muslim (Muslims refer to devout Muslims as Muhmin) if you don't accept 100% of the Quran. My problem with those who want to build this community center is that I don't know where they stand!! Are these guys willing, like Modern day Christians, to unabashedly express their reservations for several verses in the Quran, rather than feeding us the same bullsh** line about Islam being a "religion (offence 1, misnomer)" of "peace (offense 2, factually inaccurate)" and accusing their adversaries of racism (offense 3, Islam is not a race) and religious bigotry (offense 1, misnomer)?

I suspect that this lack of self-criticism, this refusal to explicitly express their reservations about several verses in the Quran, along with several undisputed practices of their beloved prophet as recorded in the hadiths, represent nothing short of tacit approval. Therefore, I cannot, in good conscience, support any institution, building, or so called "community center" which proselytizes or provides a safe haven for this kind of Ideology on U.S. soil, irregardless of its proximity to ground zero, be it a few blocks or tens of thousands of miles. Most Americans have been kind enough to tolerate this poor excuse for a modern religion at most of the places they tried to erect a place of worship, but when they clamor to take their nuisance so close to a spot where thousands, including unsuspecting Muslims, perished in the name of this madness, the ensuing controversy is all but inevitable.

*For the sake of accuracy, from East to West Coast is about 3000 miles I think, not tens of thousands of miles.

The Cordoba Mosque/House/ Bldg 51? Call it any thing you please, may be moot in a short time. The backer, Sharif El Gamal has been evicted from his office for non payment of $39,000 this after being in default of $89.000 in 2009.

This cursed property was purchased a year ago for $4.8 mill cash. By this man who was a waiter in 2002. Could it be he is afraid his backers will be found out and thus the money to pay for his rent has dried up like an Arabian desert? We still don't know where the purchase money came from and why was it in cash?

Rauf is a slum lord and El Gamal is a dead beat, yet some of you people trust that they represent good muslims and have only the best of intentions. Want to buy a 3 legged race horse?

After reading several stories about the lack of funding for this center and the owner talking about making a profit if he sold to Donald Trump I got the real bad feeling all this nonsense was just good ol fashioned greed and a big publicity stunt to generate backing or a buy out that would make lots of money.

See, American Muslims ARE acclimating to the American way!

Sorry about the slow reply, life gets in the way.

Baldman,

Moderate Islam is a fragile and intellectually untenable position

You claim Atheism. therefore you are statistically man of either Philosophy, Science, or Anger. Since I hear no anger, I assume philosophy or science. Since you base your stance in this discussion on the theoretical difficulties of maintaining belief in an anceint text containing immoral passages in modern society, instead of the evidence of mass numbers of converting or unravelling Muslims, I am going to believe you are a philosopher. I am a Scientist. I base my understandings of the world on what proof I can verify from mulitiple independant sources, not on what might be the most logical from a certain philosophical viewpoint.

Therefore, I prove my position that moderate Islam is sustainable and common thus:

I can find large quantities of evidence that Muslims live peacefully among others without committing acts deemed inappropriate to society. While this is not true in every circumstance in the world, it holds true in civilized democratic societies in developed nations. The exceptions that would break this rule are generally due to these nations not being closed systems and thus contamination from lesser developed cultures have caused harm, but tracing them back to an outside source is rather easy. Muslims in the US are not terrorists blowing up our local train stations and except the DC sniper they are geneally not our big mass murderers, in spite of being in this country since it's founding.

Second, You imply that Islam cannot separate law from religion. Evidence shows of Muslims living in the United States for over a hundred years, obeying our laws, and no laws from their society entered our secular government.

You continue to state that the Quran is beyond question between the faiths. Where is your evidence that all sects follow the Quran to the letter? If "killing infidels" is a part of the Quran not to be questioned, why are there not scores of news articles of American Muslims killing non-Muslims due to their non-belief? There are over 2 million Muslims in the US, where are all the radical killers? There is obvious flexibility, why do you insist there isn't?

I understand as an Atheist from Islam you have all the ammo in the world against them, just as I have all the ammo in the world against Christianity. But your insistence that all of them will either convert to something else or go extreme is completely without merit when you look at the evidence. There are million of American Muslims that aren't killing, raping, or trying to put Sharia law on the books. They have been here long enough to prove your viewpoint of untenability to be false.

They might be wrong, their god a big lie. But their religion is no more a religion of violence and hate than any other Abrahamic religion. I validate that statement based on other religions having higher death tolls in the last 50 years and having equal severity of crimes with no change in religious texts during this time.

Dakaiser,

I think you have misrepresented my position, but I do not believe this was intentional.

"Evidence shows of Muslims living in the United States for over a hundred years, obeying our laws, and no laws from their society entered our secular government."

This is a fair assessment, but it only holds true for the U.S. The social aspects of Shariah law, in matters of inheritance, financial disputes and divorce, are already being implemented in the U.K. To be fair, consent of both parties is required before a Sharia court can rule on their case, and I believe there are also Jewish courts which deal in similar civil matters concerning the Jews.

"There is obvious flexibility, why do you insist there isn't?"

Theoretically, there is no flexibility. The Quran is clear. In practice, it'll be suicidal for Muslims to start killing infidels on mere orders from the Quran. For one, we are superior to them in numbers and military might. What is more important is that most Muslims are "moderate Muslims," who, as I elaborated in 1.21, are living with immense cognitive dissonance. Most are quite capable of doing this until they die, just like you and I may hate some of the things the government does with our taxes, yet we never hesitate to keep paying it. If you're Human, chances are you're already living with some form of cognitive dissonance or other. My intent has been to emphasize the cognitive dissonance Muslims are living with, and that theoretically, there is no "wiggle-room" for them as there is for followers of other faiths who do not aggressively assert that their book is 100% from God.

Additionally, I sought to explain the psychological factors behind random and unpredictable acts of terrorism from individuals who, at first glance, do not fit that profile. Examples are the Times square bomber (had an MBA), the Fort Hood shooter (Has a Doctorate in Psychiatry), and the underpants bomber (son of a famous and extremely wealthy Nigerian banker who, few years before failing to pull off the stunt he's famous for, was expressing frustration over his SAT scores).

Your evidence, If I understand it correctly, is that Moderate Islam is sustainable in practice. What I understand this to mean is that many more moderate Muslims are able to put off (all the way till the time they die) resolving their cognitive dissonance than those who don't. I agree. All I'm asking for is that Moderate Muslims admit that there is a cognitive dissonance. That theoretically, their professed believe in the unerring Quran is not resolvable with principles of democracy, freedom of religion, and human rights. As an example, we no longer cut off the hands of thieves for petty crimes, and we don't order those who are accused of adultery to be whipped 99 times. I'm not asking for Muslims to abandon the spiritual aspects of their faith. What I'm asking for is some kind of a public Charter of Understanding between American Muslims and other American citizens, admitting the inherent incompatibility of their holy book with our political system, and agreeing to only abide by those principles from their religion which are shared with non-Muslims, or pose no threat to their existence and way of life. If we are CLEAR on this, then I would be more than happy to help build a mosque on Ground Zero itself!

Instead of doing what I suggest above, the only response these so called "Moderate Muslims" have provided is to keep parodying the lie that Islam is a religion of peace, that it poses no obstacles to freedom of religion, that it has no conflict with the universal declaration of Human rights. This is a tremendous insult to our intelligence, it is outright dishonesty, it evokes distrust and suspicion, and until they come clean about where they stand, I will NOT support any institution, building, or so called "community center" which proselytizes or provides a safe haven for this kind of Ideology on U.S. soil, irregardless of its proximity to ground zero, be it a few blocks or 3000 miles away.

Just as a bonus, check out this youtube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fbXvq_ZIbw&feature=related

Some states in northern Nigeria have figured out a way to "modernize" Shari-ah law in matters concerning petty crimes like cattle theft. These are Nigeria's western-educated, "moderate Muslims." Listen to what that Governor has to say about his ambitions for Nigeria.

Malaysia is a another example of Shariah law working side by side with common law and other religions. Only Muslims are required to follow sharia law and only Muslims can be prosecuted in a sharia law court. Freedom of religion is written into their constitution. If you don't want to be a Muslim anymore, convert, face a possible fine not to exceed about a thousand dollars and possible 6 month jail time. And then you never have to obey Sharia law again. Or if you were never a Muslim, you only have to obey the common law which handles all criminal offences.

As for the "institution of sharia law" in Britain, It amounts to the courts saying "If both parties want to have this civil matter dealt with by a third party that can prove itself honorable enough to pass as a justice of the peace, the judicial court will abide by their decision."

In the US a divorce can be done without either person going into a court room. Marriages definitely don't require a court room. Inheritances are usually done without court proceedings. Those are the three civil events that the British Shariah Courts arbitrate, and then only among Muslims. If a couple gets married in a church, and when they want a divorce are willing to use the church to negotiate the terms and hold to the churches decision of what is right and fair, so be it (assuming they get proper licensing). Then the paperwork goes to the local judicial court that rubber stamps it and all is well. Domestic violence, spousal rape, and all other criminal cases are still handled in real court. We let Churches perform marriages, that doesn't scare me. Why should I care if they can also do divorce and inheritances as long as they are licensed?

The Sharia courts in Britain are effectively arbitration officials in civil cases, and their decisions still answer to the judicial courts.

As for insisting again that they are walking a tightrope and trying not to fall into radicalism before they die, let's look at things from the "hopeless atheist" perspective. And tell me if you admit your own fight against what you do every day and what your beliefs logically lead you towards.

I will die. Nothing done here will have any benefit to me after I die and worms have eaten my brains. There is no personal gain I can take with me into the grave. There is no afterlife to reward me for my kindness and good deeds. Life is a glimmer of confusion with no real purpose. It is but mere chance sparks of intelligence and there is no greater universal meaning for me to strive humanity towards before I pass. I will do good things because I expect the same in return to make my brief existence more pleasant, but in all truth, the end is the end. The rise and fall of humanity are of no logical value in the great scheme of the world, and definitely not to the galaxy or universe, and no accomplishment by man could ever change that.

Cognitive dissonance? The beliefs of atheists drive them to being selfish, pleasure-seeking, and driven solely by maximum gratification. When this state of pleasure can no longer be sustained they would immediately commit suicide in the most pleasurable way imaginable. The only way we can remain productive members of society is if we find a job that brings us pleasure, and all income from that goes towards more pleasure. All the good deeds done are illogical unless there is personal gain to be had.

This is, of course, not the way most Atheists act. But our beliefs and values should lead us to that conclusion. But instead, for no logical reason, I help people. I enjoy it. It's not logical because I help people that will never thank me, or reward me. There is no higher power to thank me or reward me. I am therefore fighting cognitive dissonance myself. Does that mean I am a slight nudge away from buying some heroin and some hookers and trying to find the maximum pleasure? No. It means that the difference between how I feel and how my beliefs say I should feel is not an internal struggle looking for a victor. My morals aren't changed by a realization of a moral inconsistency. If I cannot accept it into my morals or rationalize my behavior, I simply accept that I might just disagree with that piece of the puzzle and continue being a good person.

A person's feelings of right and wrong are self driven or instructed by society, and not dictated by ancient texts. Islam is a religion of peace not because it is based on a text of only peace and love, it is because that is what they want their Imams to teach to their people. And if someone teaches something other than peace, that is the morals they put in their society. A long time Christian doesn't read the Bible and realize, "I am supposed to be fighting those who worship idols! Christ on a cross is an Idol! I will go with what the book says and start destroying all the crosses in my church."

Good people are good people. They do not have to constantly fight cognitive dissonance, andit's generally easy to cope with. Republicans seem fine with wanting to raise up the 2nd amendment while praising the constitution as being above reproach, and then dismantel the 14th. People make religion fit to their morals, which are either self developed or developed by the teachings of society during your upbringing.

It takes a persuasive person, driven by immoral goals to turn most of these people towards evil deeds. And people are easily manipulated, especially by perceived authority, like many religious leaders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

And so with these persuasive people in authority are perceived to be not just a minor authoritative figure, but a moral authoritative figure in their own religion, they are prone to act immoral.

And so I put to you that while the cognitive dissonence does exsist, it is not the ticking time-bomb you play it out to be and it exists in almost all religions and almost all atheists. Most can dismiss it without a thought. Many will simply deny the inconsistency without a valid logical reason for the denial (which can easily be a permanent solution and is obvious among the Christian hate mongers on this thread). And some of them will likely just accept that there is a flaw and continue with their ingrained moral code. I concede, it is possible, that a few individuals might be unable to fight this inconsistency and it could destroy their moral compass and lead them to horrible acts. But since the Quran conflicts with itself, this is more likely to result in abandonment than radicalism, as radicalism forces even more dissonance with the faith fighting itself.

And if I wanted to hear about one crazy Governor in a less developed country talking about religious goals, it would be because I lived there. Evil persuasive people exist. Do you think all the millions of members of Nazi Germany would have initiated what Hitler did? Most supported it because a persuasive authority figure drove them that way; forcing his way directly over their cognitive dissonence: that they were good people supporting someone killing people for ethinc differences.

I am no longer middle ground on NY Muslim Community Center. I give the site my approval.

Here is my rational.

1. The whole argument about Muslims strictly following the Qu'ran and no wiggle room is bunk. If this was the case then Middle East should be at peace and singing kum baya because the Qu'ran says Muslims can not fight other Muslims. It is quite obvious that the Middle East is not at peace. Instead corrupt leaders are using the Qu'ran to manipulate its citizens.
2. The building is a glass 13 story building that looks nothing like a Mosque and it is 2 blocks away. The people I know from that area who were upset thought they were building an Ottoman Empire type building which would look like a "victory" Mosque. When shown the actual picture they said oh, what the big deal it looks like every other building in New York.
3. I have been living in a community with Muslims for my entire life. I did not realize it before but many of my neighbors are Muslim. They just did not advertise it to the world or try to convert me. So much for strictly following Qu'ran. Once I realized that I already knew people, the positive experiences have started to outweigh negative ones. If they were following Qu'ran they would be knocking on doors like the Jehovah Witnesses. I certainly cannot call Mohammad Ali a war monger, unless you are in the boxing ring with him. I also can not say that citizens serving in the US armed forces are anti American.
4. The US Constitution is what protects me from atrocities performed in middle east Sharia law. All of those terrible things that many have posted are part of Sharia law violate US law. The US Constitution does not permit these acts in the United States. The US Constitution enables me to enjoy my own religious freedom.
5. The most import is that the US constitution gives them the right to build. Although I appreciate efforts my many posts trying to quell my own fears, my permission is not required.

I originally had concerns that this Community Center was a victory mosque or worse, but the more I looked into the more I realized that it is not. It seems someone is using this Community Center as a way to drive a wedge between friends and neighbors. Also, I feel the main goal is to dismantle the US Constitution and change rules to only apply to some individuals and not to others. That just seems wrong to me. So I will just have to trust in the US Constitution and the US Supreme Court to uphold the US Constitution.

I am no longer middle ground on NY Muslim Community Center. I give the site my approval.

Great! That's what we've been all waiting for. Now we can get back to our lives.

The whole argument about Muslims strictly following the Qu'ran and no wiggle room is bunk.

Who was arguing this? I'll bet 50% of Muslims haven't read the Qur'an, let alone follow it exactly. If 10% follow it to the letter, there would be 150 million angry Muslims attacking Jews and Christians wherever they found them.

The people I know from that area who were upset thought they were building an Ottoman Empire type building which would look like a "victory" Mosque. When shown the actual picture they said oh, what the big deal it looks like every other building in New York.

What does a Victory Mosque look like? I mean really, you must not know many people because if everyone you know thought this was about appearance and not "the message of insensitivity" it sends, then you have a lot of acquaintances who are really out of touch.

I certainly cannot call Mohammad Ali a war monger, unless you are in the boxing ring with him.

I guess we should use boxers to decide on religious and political issues. I hear Max Schmeling was a great guy who even worked to save Jews during the war. So by your standard, we shouldn't have worried about his boss Adolph or the Nazi Party.

I also can not say that citizens serving in the US armed forces are anti American.

Except for the ones who pull guns and start shooting unarmed fellow soldiers or roll live grenades in to chow tents. But since "most" don't do that it shouldn't be a problem....right?

The US Constitution is what protects me from atrocities performed in middle east Sharia law.

Correct, but we have had to fight to preserve our constitution before and we will again. To assume otherwise is naive.

The most import is that the US constitution gives them the right to build.

Agreed, and totally unimportant to this issue. If someone tries to force them not to build I will defend their rights to build. Most Americans accept that it is their right, but that it is wrong. Just like the Qur'an burning pastor.

Evey one has the right to continue with what they feel is best. That is beauty of USA.

I agree that we should protect the constitution from all threats, so please elaborate on how you perceive we should protect it.

Correct, but we have had to fight to preserve our constitution before and we will again. To assume otherwise is naive.

I am concerned that in protecting the constitution we would violate it.

Evey one has the right to continue with what they feel is best. That is beauty of USA.

Unless what they feel best is contrary to our laws.

I agree that we should protect the constitution from all threats, so please elaborate on how you perceive we should protect it.

That would be a very complicated and lengthy discussion, BUT my first wish would be that people would open their eyes and stop reciting politically correct rhetoric that is ignorant of easily checked facts. The biggest threat to our freedoms is ignorance. Not the ignorance of hate, we have laws for that, but the ignorance of well meaning Americans who choose to hide from difficult truths.

See now, Middle road, here I have to say to you a thing you posted in reply to myself and a person named Salsa a few days ago-- in this last post, #1.51, you've made a reply in which a reader can understand that you perceive a weakness and naivete on the part of a substantial number of Americans-- basically the left, I think-- whom you charge not with ill intent towards their country but rather with a well intentioned but wrongheaded denial of the true character of the people behind the project and also of Islam in general. To put it another way, you perceive these Muslims as an obvious menace and you consider those who do not share this judgment to be putting America at risk by undermining the effort to resist them.

In this particular item, 1.51, you don't name specific facts backing your position but you allude to facts that can be easily verified so I'll take for granted that they're there on earlier posts and replies.

Now, here's a first impression reply-- though there are certain groups of Muslims in the world who practice what seem to me to be clearly anachronistic, and sometimes brutal customs which they believe their religion commands them to. It is also true that there are some Qu'ranic passages which seem to foster such practices in clear language. It's also true that there have been many dramatic and well publicized incidents even here in the U.S. in which individual Muslims have violated our laws, sometimes with horrible results, and that these crimes were done, according to the criminals, for Islam. Without doubt, many of these incidents were serious, even tragic, and they MAY be indicative of a streak of proto-radicalism which lurks about the edges of the Muslim consciousness and has found expression in these recent events-- and I don't believe any liberal American denies that this is a situation we need to keep an eye on.

However, most of what I've seen you cite as evidence of the threat posed by.. (and again, this gets difficult, because while I don't want to put words in your mouth, I'm unclear on exactly who within the Muslim body politic you consider culpable) the Islamic world seems very anecdotal in nature. Earlier, for example, you mentioned the Fort Hood attacker, and I believe you also mentioned the American Muslim soldier who was serving in Iraq and killed several fellow soldiers with a grenade. Now, these were horrific incidents. But frankly, they really don't seem like part of any broader trend on the part of American Muslims to attack non Muslim Americans. Rather, they seem to more closely fit the definition acts of "lone wolf" terrorism in which a single individual with a grievance against a political target commits an act of political terror without extensive backing or support from a recognized terror group. Some tried to make a big deal of the Fort Hood shooter's having been in contact with the radical Imam in Yemen, but to me, even if Major Hasan's communications with the Imam pushed him over the finish line, so to speak, those few emails they exchanged hardly fit my idea of an organized terror plot.

Oddly, you even followed up your citing of these two events with a seeming acknowledgement of their anomalous nature, though you then concluded your paragraph with a rhetorical question, "But since most don't do that it shouldn't be a problem, right?" in which you seem to mean for us to understand that in fact it IS a problem (even though most don't, as you noted, do these things).

And if you think about it, after nine years, we can more or less say the same thing about incidents of terror directed at the U.S. Al Qaeda certainly hit us with a hammer blow on 9-11, but it really seems as though contrary to what we initially feared, it didn't have a whole lot more up its sleeve to use for follow up attacks. It's tried, but for the most part it's failed, and while it may appear that many in the Islamic world support its objectives, whatever the sum total of that support actually is it has not been enough to have enabled Al Qaeda, or if you will, the murderous impulse within Islam itself-- NOT a thing I believe in, but something many Americans fear-- to have struck successfully at us again.

This is but one of my several reasons for believing that an enormous number of Americans simply have a monolithic understanding of the entire body of Islam-- and from where I sit, the evidence for this claim simply doesn't appear to be there. If you are aware of evidence that contradicts this, please reply so I can consider it.

I hadn't expected this reply to go on for so long, but one other point seems pertinent. You'll remember that the other night, a lady named Marie was posting comments generally sympathetic to your position, and she quite capably cited several Qu'rannic passages which viewed in isolation, seem to state in plain language that Muslims are commanded to do many of the things you have mentioned. She went on to note-- correctly, according to my research-- that in Islam, there is no recognition of the varying degrees of interpretation which Christians and Jews, for example, make of the books of the bible-- rather, Muslims seem in agreement with the doctrine of the Qu'ran having come directly through Muhammad from God, and is therefore literally and infallibly true.

The fact that they affirm this seems significant when we observe that in spite of the presence of those few Surrahs which direct Muslims to commit acts of "holy violence," so to speak, against non-Muslims, such a very small percentage of them seem to actually act upon those commands. In view of this, it seems as though two things may be true of this part of our debate-- ONE, perhaps those of us in the west who have seen the violent Surrahs have misunderstood their greater, actual, contextual meanings, or TWO, perhaps the world's Muslims, though they affirm the infallibility of the Qu'ran in principle, and though they truly hold this teaching sacred and inviolable, when it comes to the practical necessity of their sharing this planet with so many non Muslims, they recognize, in varying states of conscious and unconscious awareness the fact that certain of the verses in their book are ones they are best served by deemphasizing. As a practicing Lutheran, I can assure you virtually all Christians view the bible in the same way, even the fundamentalists who profess belief in its literal truth clearly do not follow every one of Jesus's commands to the letter; anyone who did would be eyeless, homeless, and so entirely wretched he could hardly survive longer than a month.

Now, if there is any truth to what I've just written, it certainly seems to oblige us here in the U.S. to at least begin with the understanding that we cannot possibly hope to understand the way "Muslims think," and as such, we cannot accurately guess at what motivates them and what their ultimate purposes are simply because no group as enormous as the world's Muslims can possibly have a set of shared beliefs and practices to which all 1.2 billion follow in lockstep.

This would also mean it is legitimate for us to assume there are some, probably very many, Muslims who share nothing in common with the radicals from their part of the world, and that we are not unwise to meet them in the same spirit of partial trust and goodwill we extend to any who have not proved themselves unworthy of it. This is why I've been willing to take the backers of the Islamic Center at their word regarding their reasons for advancing the project-- I see no plausible reason NOT to. If future developments conflict with my heretofore assessment, I'll revise my judgment, but at this point, I believe my trust has been vindicated.

1000 words to say that the Fort Hood shooter wasn't acting in the name of Islam.

This is your reality, not mine. You wonder why Americans are having a hard time accepting Islam as a religion of peace? This is why. Denial of a painful reality. An 'inconvenient truth' if you will.

I will say it again and again and again. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MOST MUSLIMS FOLLOW THE CALL TO VIOLENCE FOUND IN THE QUR'AN. It is only a small minority, BUT...

evil by a small minority often is allowed to spread because of the ignorance or silence of the majority!

My thoughts exactly

evil by a small minority often is allowed to spread because of the ignorance or silence of the majority!

My only concern is which evil.

Anybody know what the crusade counter is up to? Must be 9 or 10 by now.

Soon to be 11 or 12, I'm afraid!

If they go ahead with plans to build this mosque/community center at this location of destruction from the 9/11 attack/mass murder, I believe it will be a HUGE mistake, on all fronts...for everyone.

Some things are more important than a piece of real estate surrounded in controversy. There is a saying...you can win the battle but loose the war. Hopefully some wisdom will prevail at this planned summit, and a different location will be found for any mosque/community center to be built.

Deborah Z,

Stop shouting, take a pill or something. There were Muslims who died in the attacks, as well as Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, atheists, etc. Yes, the murderers who flew the planes were Muslims and they claimed to act in the name of Islam. But that is no more relevant than the people who shoot abortion providers or bomb abortion clinics in the name of Christianity. Would you then oppose building a church a few blocks away from the scene of those crimes? I doubt it.

When will people like you get it through your thick skulls that not all Muslims are terrorists ( a very small minority are), not all Muslims want to convert you to their religion by force (a very small minority do just like a small minority of Christians want to convert others to their faith by force), that some Muslims do want to convert you through discourse and debate (just like some Christians want to convert others to Christianity through discourse and debate), that Muslims have been a part of the fabric of American society since the earliest days of its history (first as slaves then as full, productive, honest members of our society), that the Qu'ran does have some passages that are violent but most of them aren't (just like the Old Testament and the New Testament, particularly the book of Revelation, have some violent passages but most aren't), that the area *around* "Ground Zero" is not "sacred" and if it was you would be just as vocal about the porn shops, the strip joints, the t-shirt and souvenir vendors, the bars, etc. that are hardly appropriate on "sacred" ground. And if it *is* "sacred" as you claim, then there should be no problem with the building of *any* house of worship for any faith since members of pretty much every faith were killed in the attacks and have a perfect legal, constitutional, and *sacred* right to build a place of worship in the area, and that the vast, vast majority of American Muslims are law-abiding, tax-paying, flag-waving Americans who love this country for its freedoms and who have also served and still serve in the defense and protection of it and have given their lives in its service just as members of every other faith do.

Islam *did not* attack America or fly those planes into the World Trade Center. Vicious, murderous, misguided killers who *happened to be Muslims* and who practiced a seriously distorted version of Islam did that. And if you have been looking for the voices of Moderate Muslims who have consistently been speaking out against terrorism and those attacks in particular, a simple Google search will get you that. Simply type in "moderate Muslims speak out against terrorism and wtc attacks." You simply haven't seen the mainstream media report on these like they should be doing. Why? Because it doesn't sell papers or make good news copy on t.v. After all, if they paid attention to the moderates, all the talking heads they pay to argue with each other wouldn't be needed and we wouldn't bother to watch their lopsided, biased shows or read their lopsided, biased papers. And I am talking about on both the liberal and the right wing sides.

By the way, I'm not a Muslim, a Christian, or Jewish, so I have no bone in this fight other than to say that freedom of religion should never be trumped by jingoism, rhetoric, or emotionalism. And yes, I did lose relatives and friends in the attacks on the WTC and miss them everyday. I watched from the Jersey side of the Hudson as the towers fell hoping that they made it out. Some did.6 didn't. But I still value the freedoms we have and refuse to let the terrorists win.

Mort,

That is the single best post I have read on this topic, ever. Thank you.

My sympathies to you for the loss of your friends and relatives.

60 Muslims out of 3000. Not including the Terrorists

Bri-1732738, What's your point?

His point is you are a lib, that bashes America at every opportunity.

That the really stupid inept liar in thew white house is about to take it in the nose for his support of the camel lovers.

His point seems to be that the Muslims worked on the lower floors or their families feared all the hate mongering and didn't mention their religios tendencies. The most recent estimate I saw was that over 300 muslims used the WTC prayer room, and considering many prefered to go to their own mosque instead of using that particular room I think there was likely many more there.

Oh Johnny, you and your lib hating. It's so funny to see you show so much disgust for the first ammendment and then spew racism while accusing liberals of being un-American. I bet you really miss Senator McCarthy.

I suppose I should not be amazed at how this Imam dude has been able to manipulate the people of America, the media, and the elected and appointed "officials" who are suppose to be running the show.

This little dude, who I have read, draws a salery from the U.S.State Department, ( how much?) is probably sitting back, with his wife, and laughing his rocks off; laughing at us and even Donnie Trump; who also got sucked in.

When this first came to light reporters said they were "going to follow the money trail."

If that had been done and it is not too late, we would have a story that would probably put the brakes on and do more powerful things than a few hundred people walking about.

Baldman post 1.21 and more ad nauseum.

This is a load of verbose and simplistic ____stuff.

I have studied and read and lived in many Christian and Muslims countries. Please, I urge you to read a lot more, to study the true history, and to go back to the original source as far as your abilty to read other than English allows you.

Good grief!

MrCool,

Read Bri-'s post 6.9 on the "translation games" Muslims play.

It's actually very common. Do you know any Muslims? Have you been to any Muslim prayer rooms?

I've been to Iraq twice Jherek (30 months total), and I never saw prayer space set aside for a different religion than Islam anywhere in any Muslim building. I DID see numerous churches across Baghdad, but most were empty b/c the sectarian violence drove the Christians and Assyerians away.

Listen, Muslim are not bad people - I believe that; however, I feel this is the wrong area to build any mosque whether it's on top of the site of two blocks away, it's the perception that the community center (with mosque attached) is too close which bothers many people. All moderate people against the plan ask for is that they move the building out of lower Manhattan. The more muslims buckle against this (which is typical, Arab Muslims are especially opinionated), the more (I think) they risk enflaming these concerns and the radicals who distort the complaints of the moderates.

BS Detector, et al: Their motive for the "prayer space for other religions" is pretty obvious. They are getting more desperate, because of the continued opposition, but don't believe their BS for ONE minute!

Military Officer,

Then you know that "freedom of religion" is understood and applied differently in Iraq than it is here. My question to the "moderates" you mention is" just how far away is o.k.? It's now two blocks away. Is three o.k.? Four? Eight? Uptown? Nowhere? Also, will the moderates who are so offended by it speak out against the strip joints, the bars, the t-shirt and souvenir guys who "desecrate" the so-called "sacred ground" in the area? Perhaps the actual area where the towers stood and fell can be considered "sacred," but not the area across the street where these things go on all day, every day. Will the moderates propose also the prohibiting of tourists taking photos of themselves standing in front of the huge hole in the ground that's still there because of the monied interests and the city factions that are still fighting over what gets built there? Seems to me that the priorities have been really screwed up over this whole "Ground Zero" issue.

"My question to the "moderates" you mention is" just how far away is o.k.?"

I believe it's 12 blocks. One for each of the 12 apostles in the New Testament. j/k

:-)

It boggles the mind that Freedom loving Americans are defending the most intolerant people on the face of the planet. The fact that the Muslims won't discuss or even consider, building their mosque somewhere else, is proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that they do consider it a victory Mosque, to be built on conquered ground, where they can plot the most devious plans of all.... to enforce sharia law in America. This is the way they do it, first they terrorize, then they quietly move into your country, then they start calling us intolerant and racist because we don't want a symbol of their perceived victory built on sacred ground. Ground, I might remind you, that has the ashes of those whose bodies were never found scattered upon it. How can any true American defend a people who encourage their children to commit suicide, while intentionally murdering innocent civilians, women and children included? How can you defend the genital mutilation of women, simply because Muslim men don't think they should be allowed to enjoy sex? (I don't think Muslim men should be allowed to keep their testicles, but do I get to cut them off? NO) marriage and sex with girls as young as 8 years old (Most Americans call this Pedophilia: Sexual desire toward children; I call it disgusting)? 'honor killings' of children who want to live their own lives instead of being held to a barbaric way of life that should have ended in the 1800's? discrimination of women in the most abhorent laws ever created on earth? Stoning deaths of people who fall in love with each other and don't want to be trapped in loveless, arranged marriages? Their persecution of anyone who is not Muslim or converts to Christianity? I could go on all day, giving examples of how the Muslims are intolerant. The only thing they can come up with, to try to prove my intolerance, is that I don't want a victory mosque built anywhere near ground zero. Who would you say is being intolerant?

“ All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. ”

—Article 1 of the

“ ...recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and

—Preamble to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1948

“ Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law. ”

—Preamble to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, 1948

The Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW

Any distinction, exclusion or restriction made on the basis of sex which has the effect or purpose of impairing or nullifying the recognition, enjoyment or exercise by women, irrespective of their marital status, on a basis of equality of men and women, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural, civil or any other field.

United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHRinalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world ”

Militaryofficer, "I DID see numerous churches across Baghdad, but most were empty b/c the sectarian violence drove the Christians and Assyerians away."

Yeah, the sectarian violence was after Bush attacked and destabilized Iraq.

no, no and no...quit with the naivete and 'blame Bush' and actually go read a copy of the Koran and then, see if you continue to believe such BS. Or is it easier to shoot off your mouth without an understanding of facts and information?

Let the camel lovers build it, I encourage them to, put a lot of money in it and after it's built, spend a lot of time there

All of you libs encouraging them you spend a lot of time there, too..

Military Officer: You prefer we model our freedoms off of those in a third world country? What country did you serve?

Marie: Stop comparing the crimes of terrorists and dictators from an poorly developed country to the Muslims of America. I can do the same to you and it's considered a high level of development country: Christians invade muslim region, kill their men and children, rape, beat and kill the women and female children. 30,000 dead civilians. 1992.

And you mention pedophilia, huh. Catholics would never allow that kind of thing.

Also, you want me to prove you are intolerant? You hate all Muslims because of their religious beliefs.

in·tol·er·ant (n-tlr-nt) adj.

Not tolerant, especially:

a. Unwilling to tolerate differences in opinions, practices, or beliefs, especially religious beliefs.

Wow, that was easy. How about next I do Hypocrite: You denounce them for their persecution of anyone who is not their religion or converts to another while simultaneously hating them for not being your religion.
hy·poc·ri·sy (h-pkr-s) n. pl. hy·poc·ri·sies

1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.

As for their treatment of women, Muhammad wanted women to dress modestly and not to be with men in private because men are weak-willed and sinful. He wanted them to be separate in the mosque so they think about God and not sex.

Oh yeah!!!

It's amazing how many non-Muslims believe that 1.5 BILLION people think exactly alike.

Newsflash: Muslims form a group as broad and diverse as Christians or Jews or Sikhs or Hindus or Buddhists.

Do you actually know any Muslims? Why don't you go to a mosque and talk to some of the people there? It would be an education for you.

I tried to be friendly with some muslim women in a store; I smiled and said hello, how are you today? They acted like I wasn't there, they looked right through me. The children looked at me, and this is the only time this has ever happened to me, they wouldn't smile. It was eerie; I've never seen children who wouldn't respond to a smile with a smile. This pretty much convinced me that they have probably been told we are devils or something equally insulting. I was insulted; it's rude when people act like you don't exist. If they were trying to be Americans and assimilate wouldn't they want to be friendly with us, at least enough to smile and say hello?

You can't be serious? Really? Any segment of any population could have a rude mom walking through a store with her weird little kids!!! You honestly thought it was a Muslim thing, "devils?!" Give me a break! Try walking through a trailer park and smiling at people and you'll get weird reactions from some people too, it had nothing to do with them being Muslim.

Marie Pierce,

Really? That's your reasoning for not liking Muslims? A storekeeper was rude to you? That is perhaps the most laughable post about Muslims I have read...ever. I have been around the world and I have encountered rude people in every country. But I would never assume or make generalizations about every other person of whatever nationality that person happened to be. Rude? It's a global problem, dear. By the way, I live in the NYC metro area. We know rude!

I didn't say a store keeper; I said several muslim women in a store ignored me when I smiled and said how are you today? They looked through me as though I wasn't even there.

In the past month I have been called intolerant, racist and un-American. In my 49 years of life I have never come across anyone as intolerant, racist and un-American as Muslims. I am being called intolerant because I think it is wrong to build a Mosque on Ground Zero; If they really wanted to promote peace and goodwill between Christians and Muslims they would not have suggested it be built there in the first place. No one that has any respect and compassion for the families of the dead, would want to rub salt in a fresh wound. Why is that location so important to them? Have you, that are calling me intolerant, asked yourselves that question and answered truthfully? Does 'Cordoba' have any meaning for you? The only reason that it could possibly be so important to them, is that they do want their victory mosque, on what they perceive to be conquered ground; otherwise, why would they continue in the light of the controversy it has caused? I am called a racist because I do not want a mosque on ground that I consider to be the grave site of Americans, whose incinerated bodies were never recovered; their ashes are spread upon that ground. I am being called un-American for not wanting a mosque on ground zero....I say that sharia law, "honor killings", genital mutilation of women, marriage and sex with girls under age 12, beheadings and stonings are un-American. Think about that before you call me racist, intolerant and un-American.

"Their 'faith' cough cough isn't under attack, it's been hijacked by their masters."

Evil Islam their faith, was and is not HIJACKED as our leaders believed. It is just a ploy. Muslim and terorists (led by imams and Bin Laden) are one and the same. That's what their evil book Quran teaches. To kill anyone who don't believe in their evil religion. Evil Islam is a an evil multi face political, nation/state, terrorist organization. Evil Islam is disguised as a religion and uses our constitution for protection. Muslims are bent on Islamizing (Islamunism) the world thru terrorism. It is our duty (non muslims) to UNITE, FIGHT, and DEFEAT ISLAM and its evil followers.

Marie, I didn't call you racist, intolerant, or un-American. Paranoid might be the word I would use, though.

Why not go down to a mosque and talk to the people there?

Unbelievers are described by Muhammad (in the Qur'an) as "the vilest of animals" and "losers." Christians and Jews are hated by Allah to the extent that they are destined for eternal doom as a result of their beliefs. It would make no sense for Muhammad to then recommend them to be taken in as friends by Muslims. In fact, the Qur'an plainly commands believers not to take unbelievers as friends.

The Qur'an:
Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

Qur'an (5:80) - "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide." Those Muslims who befriend unbelievers will abide in hell.

Qur'an (3:28) - "Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them..." This last part means that the Muslim is allowed to feign friendship if it is of benefit. Renowned scholar Ibn Kathir states that "believers are allowed to show friendship outwardly, but never inwardly."

Qur'an (3:118) - "O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people, they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand." This verse not only warns Muslims not to take non-Muslims as friends, but it establishes the deep-seated paranoia that the rest of the world is out to get them.

Qur'an (9:23) - "O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers" Even family members are not to be taken as friends if they do not accept Islam. (This is the mildest interpretation of this verse from the 9th Sura, which also advocates "slaying the unbeliever wherever ye find them").

Qur'an (53:29) - "Therefore shun those who turn away from Our Message and desire nothing but the life of this world."

Qur'an (3:85) - "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

Qur'an (3:10) - "(As for) those who disbelieve, surely neither their wealth nor their children shall avail them in the least against Allah, and these it is who are the fuel of the fire." Those who do not believe in Muhammad are but fuel for the fire of Hell (also 66:6, 2:24. 21:98).

Qur'an (7:44) - "The Companions of the Garden will call out to the Companions of the Fire: "We have indeed found the promises of our Lord to us true: Have you also found Your Lord's promises true?" They shall say, "Yes"; but a crier shall proclaim between them: "The curse of Allah is on the wrong-doers" Muslims in heaven will amuse themselves by looking down on non-Muslims in Hell and mocking them while they are being tortured (see 22:19-22.

Qur'an (1:5-7) - "Show us the straight path, The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray" This is a prayer that Muslims are supposed to repeat each day. "Those who earn Thine anger" specifically refers to Jews and "those who go astray" refers to Christians (see Bukhari (12:749)).

From the Hadith:

Muslim (1:417) - Taken to mean that one's own relatives should not be taken as friends if they are not Muslim.

Abu Dawud (41:4815) - "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man follows the religion of his friend; so each one should consider whom he makes his friend."

Abu Dawud (41:4832) - The Messenger of Allah [said] "Do not keep company with anyone but a believer and do not let anyone eat your food but one who is pious."

Bukhari (59:572) - "O you who believe! Take not my enemies And your enemies as friends offering them (Your) love even though they have disbelieved in that Truth (i.e. Allah, Prophet Muhammad and this Quran) which has come to you."

Ishaq 262 - "Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur'an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse"

Ishaq 252 - The story of a young man who converts to Islam after hearing Muhammad. He then tells his own father that he can no longer have anything to do with him because, "I have become a Muslim and follow the religion of Muhammad." (To maintain a relationship with his son, the father "converts" as well). This is an important passage because it establishes that the principle of shunning is based merely on the status of non-Muslims as unbelievers, not on their relations toward Muslims. In this case, the father desperately loved his son and meant him no harm.

Additional Notes:

Even though they are explicitly kufr (unbelievers, Qur'an 5:17, 4:44-59) Jews and Christians are given special status in Islam. So, if Muhammad warned believers against taking them as friends, then it surely is not permissible for Muslims to befriend atheists or those of other religions.

takingmiddleground...

The position of Iman sounds in some ways like a political appointment. From what I have heard, communities "elect" or choose an Iman to lead a mosque in their community. I do not think there is a central governing body or hierarchy such as Bishops function in Christian denominations...and that could contribute to the problem of vastly different interpretations of the Koran, with some mosques becoming breeding grounds for extremism...I don't know. This is my understanding, but it could be something different...I do know that in what I have read about this Iman Rauf, I did not see anything about a formal "theology" degree or schooling, or anything, but maybe that is also done differently. Here are a couple links I was able to find when I goggled his name, and they are somewhat alarming, in my opinion.

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.7252/pub_detail.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feisal_Abdul_Rauf

Concerning Iman Rauf's education, this is what Wikipedia says...

Rauf earned bachelor's degree in physics from Columbia University^[8] in the late 1960s, before earning a master's degree in plasma physics at Stevens University in Hoboken, New Jersey.^[9]

After his studies, Rauf focused on his religious aspirations, and became a popular leader of a New York City mosque.^[9] He also held jobs in teaching, as a salesman and in real estate.

Bri - stop trying to scare everyone. I read the Bible front and back growing up as a Christian and it is just as scary. According to Revelations only the Jews are the children of God not the Christians so I guess Christians are out of luck. Ah but wait Christianity did not exist when the bible was written, so adaption to the religion had to occur. The Bible, Qu'ran, and Torrah were all derived off the same text so I am sure all of them are equally scary.

Jherek - Not many mosques in my area. In general I don't believe in organized religions period. To many religious wars fought over who butters their bread on what side. I am just curious about Islam because when you get new neighbors it is helpful to know what is like to tick them off.

KJR - According to Wiki Imam Rauf is Sufi. If I read correctly on wiki, Sufi is a movement that takes a spiritual interpretation. More of improving your own self not forcing on others. It is not liked very much by Wahhabism which is Osama Bin Laden. Wahhabism translates Qu'ran to apply to law in direct translation. But that is what I am guessing by reading wiki. My interpretation may be off.

The reality is that most Middle Eastern muslims don't even know what the Koran says. It is only to be written and worshipped in Arabic, despite the fact that a great majority don't speak Arabic. So, they are forced to accept the interpretations of the Imams.

ChiCity - Ah similar to Christianity. The Bible is not originally English, it is derived from Hebrew, Arabic, Latin, and I think some German. I think Catholic church preaches in Latin, but protestant churches preach in language native to country. IE English here.

Bri - stop trying to scare everyone. I read the Bible front and back growing up as a Christian and it is just as scary. According to Revelations only the Jews are the children of God not the Christians so I guess Christians are out of luck. Ah but wait Christianity did not exist when the bible was written, so adaption to the religion had to occur. The Bible, Qu'ran, and Torrah were all derived off the same text so I am sure all of them are equally scary.

You have no clue what you are talking about like a typical progressive.

According to Revelations only the Jews are the children of God not the Christians so I guess Christians are out of luck. WOW! Revelations is part of the New Testament... thus they were speaking about and to Christians

Ah but wait Christianity did not exist when the bible was written, so adaption to the religion had to occur. T

WOW! The New Testimant was written between 150ad-400ad-- yes it was written after Christianaty existed.

The Bible, Qu'ran, and Torrah were all derived off the same text so I am sure all of them are equally scary.

WOW! The Koran is the words of Muhammad, he sounds nothing like Jesus. Example... Muhammad married a 9 year old girl and had sex with her. He had slaves. He beheaded people. Jesus did nothing like that.

I read the Bible front and back growing up as a Christian--- WOW! I don't believe you as you don't know that the New Testiment and Old are different books.

ChiCity

The reality is that most Middle Eastern muslims don't even know what the Koran says. It is only to be written and worshipped in Arabic, despite the fact that a great majority don't speak Arabic. So, they are forced to accept the interpretations of the Imams.

The Muslim Game:

The Qur’an can only be fully understood in Arabic. One cannot criticize Islam without knowing Arabic.

The Truth:

Although Muslims often tell critics of Islam to "read the Qur'an," they are usually unprepared for what happens when their advice is heeded. An honest translation of Islam's holiest book generally reinforces negative opinion. The fallback is to then claim that the Qur'an can only be understood in Arabic.

Of all the efforts to artificially insulate Islam from intellectual critique, this is probably the most transparent. Unfortunately, for those Muslims craving reassurance from the more embarrassing passages of the Qur’an and Sunnah, this cheap tactic of arbitrarily dismissing anything they disagree with still comes at a heavy price, since Islam cannot be protected in this way without sacrificing its claim to being a universal religion.

In the first place, it is fundamentally impossible for anyone to learn a language that cannot be translated into the only one they do know, which means the apologists who insist that “one must learn Arabic” in order to understand the Qur’an are committing a logical fallacy. Either the Arabic of the Qur’an is translatable (in which case there is no need to learn Arabic) or it is not (in which case it can never be learned by the non-native speaker).

Enter the skeptic. While every language has its nuances, how is that Arabic is the only one with words and phrases that are literally untranslatable? More importantly, why in the world would Allah choose to communicate his one true religion for all men in the only language that cannot be understood by all men – including all Muslims, since most do not speak Arabic?

Even more suspicious is that this amazing linguistic “discovery” was only recently made – and that it corresponds quite remarkably with the contemporary rejection of Islamic practices that were considered acceptable up until the religion’s recent collision with Western liberalism. In fact, there is an astonishing correlation between the argument that hidden and alternate meanings exist to unflattering Qur’anic passages (justifying slavery, the inferior status of women, sexual gluttony, holy warfare, wife-beating, and religious discrimination) and the level of embarrassment that modern scholars have about the presence of such verses in the Qur’an!

No other world religion makes this claim about itself or its holy texts. While the Bible is distributed pretty much as is by various Christian groups, for example, it is rare to find a Qur’an that does not include voluminous and highly subjective footnoted commentary deemed necessary to explain away the straightforward interpretation of politically-incorrect passages.

An additional problem for the apologists is that they want to have it both ways. On the one hand they declare that (for some strange reason) the "perfect book" can't be translated and that Allah's perfect religion thus cannot be understood by most of humanity without a battery of intercessors and interpreters. Then they turn around and blame the reality of Islamic terrorism on this same "necessary" chain of intermediaries by claiming that the Osama bin Ladens of the world have simply gotten bad clerical advice, causing them to “misunderstand” the true meaning of the Religion of Peace (in the most catastrophic and tragic way imaginable).

Of course, another irony here is that, as a Saudi, the Qur’an-toting Osama bin Laden is a native Arabic speaker – as are most of the leaders and foot soldiers in his al-Qaeda brotherhood of devout Muslims. In fact, many critics of Islam are Arabic speakers as well.

At this point there is only one avenue of escape open to the beleaguered apologist, which is the weak claim that the Qur’an can only be understood in Classical Arabic, an obscure Quraish dialect which has not been commonly used in over a thousand years and is only known by a few hundred people alive today (generally Wahabbi scholars, who are - ironically enough - accused of taking the Qur'an 'too literally').

Although it is hardly plausible that the differences between classical and modern Arabic are such that peace and tolerance can be confused with terrorism, even if this were true, it merely begs the question all the more. Why would such a “perfect book” be virtually impossible for the rest of us to learn - and susceptible to such horrible "misinterpretation" on an on-going basis?

Really, it isn't hard to see through this childish game, particularly since the rules are applied only to detractors and not to advocates. Apologists never claim that Arabic is a barrier to understanding Islam when it comes to lauding the religion, no matter how less knowledgeable those offering praise are than the critics.

Obviously, the real reason for this illogical myth is that, for the first time, the information age is making the full history and texts of the Islamic religion available to a broader audience, and it is highly embarrassing to both Muslim scholars and their faithful flock. Pretending that different meanings exist in Arabic is a way of finding solace and saving face.

Bri - "Christianity" was formed by Constantine who formulated it to calm down the Jewish that were worshiping Jesus in 312. Of course you probably know more because you read every form of the Bible in every language it was published. I am sure you also read the text that Constantine threw out as well. In the one Bible I read the Jews are the children of God and they were the only one going to Heaven.

By the way some of the battles in England during King Henry's the eights reign when church of England later Protestants are pretty scary as well. You should watch the Showtime show the Tudors. Pretty scary I would hate to be a women then.

I don't know if I trust Islam either, but I think I owe them a chance to explain before I make judgment. Thus Muslims community has been in the US since 1921 and we had Muslims living in US as early as 1620. This is coming from Wiki. The Muslims who attacked Trade Center were not from US but foreigners.

Bri

Your efforts to expose this evil gang of thugs through factual research is admirable. Islam is more akin to a satanic cult than to religion. The entire "theology" of Islam emanates from God's rejection of Ishmael for the inheritance of His covenant with Abraham. Many middle easterners are descendants of Ishmael.

To quench their jealousy and hatred of Jews and to further confound them, Satan gave Mo hammed a laughable, revised, twisted interpretation of the Bible. This grossly inaccurate work of Mo hammed took centuries to disentangle some of the more obvious self contradictions.

So Bri, which Hadith did you quote since there is a different one for Sunni and Shia?

Just curious where did you find the Hadith and Qu'ran? Was the entire text published online? If so where?

takingmiddleground...

ChiCity said..."The reality is that most Middle Eastern muslims don't even know what the Koran says. It is only to be written and worshipped in Arabic, despite the fact that a great majority don't speak Arabic. So, they are forced to accept the interpretations of the Imams."

takingmiddleground answered...- "ChiCity -Ah similar to Christianity. The Bible is not originally English, it is derived from Hebrew, Arabic, Latin, and I think some German. I think Catholic church preaches in Latin, but protestant churches preach in language native to country. IE English here."

NO...not similar at all...I think you do not know much about the Bible...or Christianity.

The Bible was not originally "derived from Arabic"...maybe you meant Aramaic (an ancient language spoken by Jesus)...nor was it originally written in Latin. It was translated into German...not originally written in German, but ancient Greek texts exist, as well as texts in ancient forms of Hebrew and Aramaic, I believe. The Bible has been translated into all known languages, so that people around the world can read and seek personal understanding of the scriptures in their native language. This gives all people the ability to read the Bible for themselves, without the need to rely on another person to tell them what it says. Catholic Priests give their homilies (sermons) in the language spoken by their congregants... otherwise whats the point in preaching if no one understands what is being said. And other Christian Church Pastors/Clergy also speak their sermons in the language their congregants speak, so as to be understood. A few Catholic Priests perform the Mass (Eucharist/Holy Communion) in Latin in following tradition, I believe, but most also speak the Mass in the language of their congregants.

Let's pretend for a minute that on September 11, 2001 two planes flew into the World Trade center towers. Let's pretend that those planes had been hijacked by a group of 19 men from another country - any country you choose - who happened to members of a radical extremist terrorist group of Christians who believed that the USA was evil and that by doing this they would usher in the Second Coming of Christ and the Battle of Armageddon. Let's pretend that 3000 people of all religions or no religion were killed in the attack and that the towers fell just as they actually did. Let's pretend that other members of this radical extremist terrorist Christian group applauded the killers actions and threatened more attacks.

The emotions, the terror, the anger...would be the same as they really were and are.

Now let's say that a few years later, a group of Christians who are not affiliated with the extremists, who have publicly spoken against terrorism and specifically the WTC attacks done by our pretend Christian terrorists, want to build a Christian Community center two blocks away from "Ground Zero," a place that will have a Christian chapel and a place for people of all faiths to pray, to hold dialogue, to work together for peace. Also a memorial to all those killed by our pretend Christian radical extremist terrorists.

Would the people who are opposing the Islamic community center oppose the building of a Christian community center if my pretend Christian radical extremist terrorists were real and the actual perpetrators? Would people be screaming, "No Ground Zero Church"?

No they wouldn't. Because what is not being said here, what has been unspoken, but loudly implied is that we do not like or want to be a pluralistic nation. That many people really do want this to be a "Christian" nation, not a nation of many faith traditions.

There would be no opposition because people would say, "Well those terrorist Christians weren't representative of Christianity. That is not what Christianity is all about! Yes our Bible does have some violent passages in it, but those have to be understood in context, not out of textual or historical context. You can't judge all Christians by the actions of these people."

Get the point? The opposition to the mosque is no more than fear-mongering, ignorance, bigotry, hypocrisy, un-American, and...un-Christian.

KJR - Thanks for the clarification on the languages and on when Latin is spoken in the Catholic church. I always see Catholic services on TV showing a priest speaking in Latin from mass and wondered how congregation does not fall asleep. I come from a protestant church so I don't know much about Catholics.

Since the Bible is translated between different languages the bible says different things to different groups. My understanding is the German bible describes the feast of Cain-en as a drunken brawl but the English version (not sure about whether it is King James or not) describes it as a peaceful feast.

My understanding of the Catholic church says the priest provides interpretation of the bible to the congregation. Most Christians I know both Protestant and Catholic have not read the bible so they follow their Priest or Minister's interpretation.

When I said Muslim is similar to Christain I was refering to the fact that the congregation does not really know the true word in the Holy text. Again apologizes if I did not have the specific languages correct, but the concept still holds.

mortnerd70 - What is being said here is that most people know about the various Christian groups and have had several positive experiences with Christian groups. Most in US do not understand Islamic groups and have only had negative / frightening experiences with Islamic radical terrorist groups. So when Islam is mentioned they are afraid. The key the lack of positive experiences to counter balance. It take 10 positive experiences to overcome 1 negative one.

This community center which was meant to create positive experiences of Islam is not doing so because the location is reminding us of the most frightening negative one.

mortsnerd...

When is the last time Christians committed mass murder in this (or any other) country in the name of Christianity? If your fictional Christian extremists had also bombed London subways, had infiltrated the government armed services with a church radicalized (but supposedly moderate Christian) Psychiatrist who betrayed the trust of his fellow servicemen/patients in mass murdering them while they were unarmed and in a treatment center, had attempted to blow up a plane filled with Americans coming home for the holidays on Christmas Eve, and countless other acts of violence, in the name of Christianity...here and abroad, and if many of the perpetrators appeared to be moderate Christians, some raised in American Christian churches...until they attacked in the name of Christianity...then yes, I think your fictional scenario/site of their violent mass murder could do without another church building added at the site of destruction, especially if the majority of Americans did not support the location for the church building, and victims/families expressed that it was insensitive and disrespectful to their pain.

Being a Christian is a way of life...the Christians ARE the Church, and it has nothing to do with a building. True Christians know this, and would rather act with compassion and sensitivity towards victims and to bring peace and unity to peoples, rather than insist on a divisive building that is nothing more than some bricks and mortar. It would be rather counter-productive to claim a desire for peace and unity with ALL Americans while forcing their agenda against the majority opinion, causing pain and division in the community...don't you think? Some would even call it hypocritical.

mortnerd70 - your statement about wanting this to be a "Christian" nation not a nation of many faiths traditions is probably not true.

That many people really do want this to be a "Christian" nation, not a nation of many faith traditions.

If you asked people about building a Hindi or Buddhist temple I do not think it would invoke any reaction. Again this goes to peoples experiences.

Of course I believe the American-Muslims have had some negative experiences as well. Some how I don't think stealing property is the best way to make friends.

KJR,

In the last few years the Lords Resistance Army has killed hundreds. It raped women and young girls, and indoctrinated children as young as 5 years old into it's army. It's war is to create a Christian Theocracy in Africa based on the 10 commandments of the Bible. Does that mean I can protest your churches now for fear of you trying to create a Christian theocracy?

dakaiser...

"In the last few years the Lords Resistance Army has killed hundreds."

"It's war is to create a Christian Theocracy in Africa based on the 10 commandments of the Bible."

Commandment...Thou shall not kill.

KJR,

"When's the last time..."

Was any time o.k. with you? Take the Crusades, the Inquisition, the conquests in the name of God of the indigienous peoples of North, South, and Central America, the witch hunts of people in Europe and America...and if you consider the numerous "Christian" leaders who supported the Viet Nam war, the war in Iraq, the war in Afghanistan...if you consider the number of military leaders who have in recent years publicly said that they are doing "god's work" by waging war...then I'd say "Christians" have been and continue to be some of the most violent, murderous people in the world. I would also say that the practice of "evangelizing" foreign nations, trying to get them to change their traditional ways in the name of god (as was so effectively done here in the Americas) destroying their cultures and "assimilating" them is as much an an example of genocide as any other.

You will also notice that I deliberately said in my post that they are not representative of *all* Christians. And when you say, "True Christians" would not do such things or act this way, you make my point. Jesus would welcome his Muslim brothers and sisters. His policy was to love his enemies:

Matthew 5: 43-48

⁴³"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor^[a] and hate your enemy.' ⁴⁴But I tell you: Love your enemies^[b]and pray for those who persecute you, ⁴⁵that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. ⁴⁶If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? ⁴⁷And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? ⁴⁸Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

So please tell me how you and others who are acting towards Muslims in the manner you are are following his teachings here. Please show me, from your own Scriptures, one statement spoken by Jesus that says to hate your enemies, to deny your enemies the same rights that you enjoy. There are none. You and all those "Christians" who have jumped on the band-wagon of hatred, anger, fear-mongering, bigotry, and self-righteousness make the teachings of Jesus a laughing stock.

Takingmiddleground,

Your statement about experiences may be true to some extent. There will, however, always be those who will not allow Muslims to even try, in any place or time, to reach out in a trusting way. The Muslim community involved in this center are doing the hard work of trying to begin a healing process. The reality is that for some people, even if it was 50 years from now and 10 miles away, it would still be too soon and too close.

If your standard of negative experience was applied in other situations, Christians would never be accepted in many places around the world. Various cultures have not wanted Christians to live and worship among them because of the negative experiences with previous "Christians." Yet, Christians have continually ignored those peoples feelings, in an effort to reach out and change the perception created by the previous "Christians" and managed to bring about healing between the two cultures.

That is what is happening here.

mortsnerd...

There is much in scripture that I could quote, and try to explain to you, but I see your mind is closed, and so we will simply look at the scriptural quote you posted and look a little deeper at the Word in the Gospel of Matthew...

⁴⁴But I tell you: Love your enemies^[b]and pray for those who persecute you, ⁴⁵that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.

First of all, I do not consider all muslims my "enemies", so you have started with a falacy if that was your point in posting this scripture. I do not agree with those who would promote the building of this mosque on this site. To "love" your neighbor, or your enemy, does not mean to stand quietly by and condone any action...even as they are acting in a way that is harmfully divisive, construing threats of violence, and proceeding in a way that is NOT in the best interest or highest good for themselves or their community of ALL of God's Children. Can you see the error of your ways?

"You and all those "Christians" who have jumped on the band-wagon of hatred, anger, fear-mongering, bigotry, and self-righteousness make the teachings of Jesus a laughing stock."

(Jesus said), "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Matthew 7:1-2

You have shown that you have no understanding of the Bible scriptures. You do not know me or my heart...yet you judge me. You discredit your argument that you believe all of a group of people should not be judged by the actions of a few, as you then proceed to judge "all those Christians" who are opposed to the building of the Cordoba House on this location damaged in the 9/11 mass murder, with offensive labels and pre-conceived misconceptions. I would suggest you "take the plank out of your own eye", before you are judged a hypocrite.

And I'd suggest you look at the example of Jesus who never struck back at those who persecuted and even killed him.

mortsnerd - There are 1,209 mosques in the United States. Looks like someone is giving them a chance.

KJR

Thou shall not kill

So, are you saying that there are no Christians in foxholes?

Are you daring to say that no members of our nations army are real Christians? Are you implying that our troops are heathens?

dakaiser...

"So, are you saying that there are no Christians in foxholes?"

No

"Are you daring to say that no members of our nations army are real Christians? Are you implying that our troops are heathens?"

No A far stretch you are trying to twist. I did not write the commandment. However, if you need an interpretation spelled out, I believe killing in self-defense (as in a war situation) is considered justifiable, as the intent is survival...kill or be killed. Government officials who make a decison to declare war should have a very good, justifiable reason with intentions of the greater good of mankind, for going to war (such as stopping a murderous mad man like Hitler), or they may have many unjustifiable deaths on their conscious, in my opinion. Killing animals to eat is also OK, if that would be your next question. Seriously, I am through discussing this now.

in self-defense (as in a war situation)

The Lords resistance Army are at war (Army in the title doesn't give that away?). But fine, let's call them more of an insurrection (kinda like when we had our war of independence from Britain.) You think they don't firmly believe their attempt to bring abut a Christian theocracy is a justifiable cause? Their goals seem validated by the Old Testament.

But modern warfare involves large amounts of killing without being in mortal danger. Those aren't Christians?

So when our Air force soldiers, piloting drones, kill people without at any time being in harms way, they cannot be Christian? When our pilots drop bombs without taking fire, they are not Christians? When our marine snipers kill people from a thousand yards?

And where in the Bible did it say Thou shalt not kill, unless it's for a good reason? What is the basis for your interpretation? Who are you to decide when killing is OK? What does your scripture say? What are the allowable reasons? You said self defence, but our soldiers are not in Afghanistan to talk. We are an invading army attacking our enemy with approval of the local government. That is not self defence. And I don't remember reading that God said "killing in self defence is OK".

If you are gonna put scripture as saying why the LRA are not real Christians, then you better back it up with explaining how our Christian soldiers are any different. Don't spout a single commandment to dismiss Christian killers and assume it's a done deal when you don't think our Christian soldiers have to obey it.

Don't scream to the world that you are a hypocrite and say you are done talking about it now that I point out you cannot validate your nonsense.

Well then there have been a lot of people who have perverted your religion and committed a ton of atrocities in its name.

Hmmm ... I wonder if that's what could have happened here? That a few have perverted a religion and committed a ton of atrocities in its name.

Beth-44036 I believe that this person is a christian.

Beth, great point and you're dead on. However, when was the last time that happened, in terms of Christianity? When was the last time someone, in the name of God killed thousands of innocents? Not recently, if memory serves (and don't stoop to saying "Iraq" - try to stick with the topic, please).

So, ok, work with me now. . . Inquisition and Crusades aside, give me a date in the last 100 years when that happened in Christianity b/c it's going on NOW in Islam. So, either Islamic leaders pull their respective heads out of their 4th point of contacts (Airborne-talk for "butts"), or they risk the continuing rise of the anti-Islam tide, which is unfortunate. Instead, they've remain largely silent (the radical ones praise such actions) and many even promoted violent responses in Europe when charicatures of their prophet were printed in newspapers. If you want to keep bringing up the crusades to try to make it a non-issue, though, go right ahead. Good luck with that.

Not recently Beth; why do you always go to the past life of Christianity? We no longer behave like barbarians; we don't behead people and we don't cut the hand off thieves. That was the past Beth, why don't you come out of it?

What does it say about sexual abuse from priests or the Spanish Iquisition?

Ricksta, no, you're right; many of the Catholic priests are sick, perverted criminals (I was never raised nor practiced Catholicism, so that didn't occur to me). Yeah, I agree. However, (and we'll see if Jherek chimes in to refute me here) it's a commonly known expression among Arab Muslims that "women are for babies and boys are for pleasure." Never knew that until I deployed and worked with Iraqi soldiers for a year. Sound sick to you? It sure did to me, although I know it's not a common practice (anymore than in is in America, I'd wager). So, I wouldn't say the sin of child molestation lies solely at the feet of Christianity.

However, in terms of violence (to which I was referring earlier), I think Islam takes first place amongst the world's religions as the champion of inspiring others to forcefully remove the lives of other people. Just a fact, not a judgement. Any issues with that?

Recently -- how about KKK lynchings in the U.S. in the 20th Century; how about the Protestant v. Catholics in Northern Ireland, still going on (but with any luck, almost over); how about Jim Jones in Guyana? Priests/Pastors who molest children? There are more. But these are ALL people/groups who have committed murder/atrocities with a Bible in their hand.

So, is it fair to label ALL Christians murders and extremists because these have perverted the religion? No. It is also not fair to do the same to Muslims.

THAT is my point. Punish those who do the crimes -- all of them; but don't label an entire group because of a few.

Jim Jonjes was an atheist socialist from San Francisco. Honestly... google it. He was an atheist that thought Mao was the best thing ever.

hail satan

Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that as an observant Orthodox Jew, she holds that homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet.

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I do look forward to your enlightenment regarding the questions that puzzle me. Then I shall pass them along to others who may appreciate your moral leadership.

Sincerely.

(Name withheld by request)

Something I have noticed; none of you here that are defending the muslims, have anything to say about sharia law and the way it says to treat women....every time it is brought up, you revert back to past Christianity that is not relevant to the present in the least...so, how do you defend sharia law and female genital mutilation and sex with little girls?

Your letter to Dr. Laura might hold some weight, if Christians still made sacrifices and sold their daughters into slavery like the muslims do; but, as everyone knows, we do not do those things anymore; we have moved into the 21st century. It is the muslims you should be directing those question to as they would probably be able to tell you what your daughter is worth.

Something I have noticed; none of you here that are defending the muslims, have anything to say about sharia law and the way it says to treat women....every time it is brought up, you revert back to past Christianity that is not relevant to the present in the least...so, how do you defend sharia law and female genital mutilation and sex with little girls?

I don't. Any more than I defend Catholic priests that abuse kids. Not ALL Muslims subscribe to "sharia law" -- any more than all Catholic priests abuse kids.

You seem to mistake defending a people as a whole as defending extremists within that group -- a problem many of you seem to share.

Marie,

have anything to say about sharia law

Oh I have one very easy and simple thing to saw about Sharia law. We kept the first commandment out of the legal books in spite of 200 years of Christian majority. That and the fact that the government and schools are just getting increasingly secular, Sharia Law has a snowballs chance in hell of making it into our legal system.

Your letter to Dr. Laura might hold some weight, if Christians still...

So you are saying that homosexuality is ok and we should allow gay marriage. That was what the letter was supposed to point out, that the quotes used to attack homosexuality are from the Old Testament and the morals of that society are no longer valid. But since you seem to so readily dismiss the Old Testament, who is Jesus's father? Surely not the Old Testament God that approves of Genocide, Ethnic war, and believes that it's fine to kill the children for the sins of the father? You worship that God? Wow, Satan never did anything as bad as God did in the Old Testament.

They've been trying to get rid of us for years, we just didn't realize it - a muslim killed Bobby Kennedy and a muslim shot the previous Pope.

Everyone is saying the Mosque will not be built.

Who are we to believe. They are using "terrorism" on American citizens with this threat. They know that they are "stoking" the fires here, and rattling cages.'

The President has been quiet on this subject. Why would any group or Faith want to do something that is insulting to the memories of the victims and their lives.

Cruel is the Koran, it's teachings, and the Rauf's of this World.

"Building Bridges". How about severing the nation with this stupid idea. They've done a good job of Americans disliking them as a group. Is this their Goal? Too bad, a Muslim Leader could not come out strongly and confront Rauf with his obscene proposal. Who's backing the funding?

Mayor Bloomberg is a pansy. Is this what Politics is about. Extortion? In the end Politicians like Bloomberg/Rangel, Waters will be the victims for not standing up for what is right (not a pun).

Yeah those Muslims are all the same, just like those damn Christians!

The guys behind this Mosque will not meet with the archbishop of NYC. So much for the "religious understanding" excuse.

Iman is a slumlord (google it)

Two other principals gave Hamas money and blame Bush for 911. (google it)

I can't believe they call us intolerant! They won't tolerate a Baptist Church, Mormon Church or any other kind of church at Mecca. Why should we tolerate the Cordoba Victory Mosque anywhere near ground zero? And don't say it's not a victory mosque; we all know muslim history. They conquer, they destroy and then they build a mosque on the conquered ground; I feel sorry for anyone who cannot see it. Your heads will actually have to hit the ground before you will believe that they will cut them off!

Jherek, I love your approach, man. You add to every post with either a snide remark or the question, "Do you even know any Muslims?" While I'm sure that gives you a rush, it really doesn't contribute meaningfully to the debate. So, why do you think the community center sould be built? Is there a reason, in your mind, why it can't be moved elsewhere (say, somewhere less contentious)?

What about the actual topic of the article: Do you think this counsel will support the Community Center's construction? I think it will. I think it's probably their plan to openly and defiantly support the construction of the center, and I think they'll probably ask something of Muslim Americans to support it, like a protest or a walk on NYC. Nothing wrong with that, of course, unless you want to further infuriate the American public that isn't Muslim. I just don't see them truly supporting the religious understanding they preach unless they demonstrate some leeway, some give.

Bri...

Here are a couple links on the Iman Rauf...reportedly there are numerous health violations at the apartment building(s) owned by him, he has been charged with fraud, he reportedly registered a tax emempt "mosque" or place of worship that never existed...I am not sure why he is being allowed to lead anything, much less a place of supposed "spiritual growth". Sounds like he should be in jail for tax fraud...but then our government spends taxdollars to send him abroad for "religious interfaith relations". Sometimes fact is absolutely stranger than fiction.

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.7252/pub_detail.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feisal_Abdul_Rauf

MilitaryOfficer, you second paragraph deals in a hypotheticals, yet you object to my hypothesizing that none of the critics of Muslims posting here know any Muslims!

I make the same challenge to you then sir: Go to a mosque and meet some Muslims. Talk to them. Learn a bit about their viewpoints and philosophy.

Bigotry thrives in an atmosphere of ignorance. I have shared my house with two tenants who were Muslim. One was a very pleasant Moroccan gentleman whom I rather liked. The other was a rather immature young university student who I did not care for much. I also did considerably real estate business with an intelligent and sophisticated gentleman who was a Muslim; we still correspond even though we now live in different countries.

All three of those men were very, very different individuals; as different as any Christians or Jews or atheists that I have met. This absurd bigotry that labels all Muslims as being insane, fanatical terrorists is at once naive, stupid and disgusting. There 1.5 BILLION Muslims on planet Earth and they are all individuals.

Go meet some Muslims and communicate with them sir. You will learn much and hopefully shed your foolisg bigotry.

There are 105 BILLION Muslims in this world.

The majority of them are not Arabs.

105 billion? that seems a little high since the population of the entire world isn't even that big...

Fortunately for us, we are not in Saudi Arabia. We have religious freedom here. Personally, I'd like to keep it.

I would like to believe that American Muslims have a live and let live attitude. I have known Muslims in my life it seems that one of things you can never get them to do is criticize other Muslims, no matter how heinous their conduct. Al Queda attacks the twin towers and the United States is somehow responsible. They will not admit that Hamas. A Dutchman is killed for making a movie about how Muslim women are abused and he is murdered. A writer writes a book critical of Muhammed and he has to go into hiding because of an alleged insult. A man draws an image of Muhammed and a large portion of the world's Muslims riot. What is wrong with this picture?

Intolerance! They scream that the world is intolerant of them; not so, it is them that is intolerant of the world! They have one hell of a fight waiting for them if they think that we will allow them to take over like they have in France. WE HAVE GUNS HERE AND WILL FIGHT TO THE DEATH FOR OUR FREEDOMS!!!!!!!!! NO MOSQUE!!!!!!!!! NO SHARIA LAW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your right, their Indonesians who were once predomnantly Buddhist with Hinuds.

But the vast majority of the computer chips, memory and other information technology items are manufactured in Indonesia.

Yes that's a hint of why the Islamics worked very hard to convert Indonesia to the Islamic faith. But if American companies were smart, they would slowly stop making the stuff in Indonesia, move it somewhere else, and not make an investment there for making current technology items. Who wants to invest in mfg facilities in countries governed and ruled by religious leaders, with the very high risk of interruption or seizure by said religious government?

And when someone sets up a "Draw Mohammed Day" on Facebook, they have to go into hiding in a witness protection program because the ex-imam of the Washington D.C. mosque put out a fatwa against her - which is what happened yesterday.

Jherek meant to type "will be."

Correction: There are 1.5 BILLION Muslims in this world.

The majority of them are not Arabs.

(I struck the '0' key instead of the '.' - Apologies.)

maybe they could start by combating the religious bigotry in their own faith.

Ha! That's what I mean by hipocrisy.

Well, they are going to have to make some big decisions about THEIR bigotry, aren't they?

Advocating murdering people? How very Christian of you! (Sarcasm.)

And I suppose you are one of those people who believe that all Muslims are violent murderers?

How can you take the speck out of your neighbor's eye, when you have a huge beam in your own eye?

How stereotypical of you to assume I'm Christian.

Jherek, good quote, but it also applies to those that would build a Mosque at ground zero when the vast majority oppose it. It also applies to Muslims that fight for the right to religious freedom and deny it in Muslim countries. It also applies to those that burn the American flag and cry bigotry when someone threatens to burn the Koran.

You must've missed the sarcasm. I think it's clear that he DOESN'T assume you a christian.

I think Jherek might miss one of his 5 calls to prayer, if he wastes more time here!

Jherik...they advocate murdering us every time they don't denounce a terrorist act!

Yeah Marie "they" are all the same aren't they? Just like blacks and Jews and orientals and whites and Hispanics, etc.

I guess bigotry is okay these days as long as it's only directed at Muslims.

Yeah, Obama, Hillary Clinton and Gen. Petraeus will be the key note speakers. It's no wonder these idiots think they can get away with this.

of course!!!

Jherek Carnelian How many anti-jihad marches have you been on. If you haven't been on one, I'd say you cool it here until you do one.

NY is a big union town. It WILL be interesting to see if the unions work on this project.

See my post below.

Actually the American people "as a whole" aren't against this. The nation is pretty damn divided, and pretty much along Conservative/Liberal lines (like most things).

I am an American, and I'm not against it one bit: It's not on the grounds of the WTC, so I don't care what they build there.

Those who insult the memories of those who died that day by protesting this mosque DO NOT SPEAK FOR ALL AMERICANS!

I think it's hilarious how a bunch of bigoted bloggers think their opinion is the "majority" just because they run their mouths the most on Newsvine

cascadia

Actually the American people "as a whole" aren't against this. The nation is pretty damn divided, and pretty much along Conservative/Liberal lines (like most things).

woodchuck

how a bunch of bigoted bloggers think their opinion is the "majority"

I hate to be the one to break this to you, but you are sorely misinformed or are trying to misinform. Over half of your own party are against this.

Nearly three of four Americans -- 71 percent -- say building a mosque so close to the site is not appropriate while just 22 percent say it is appropriate. CBS poll

Overall, 83 percent of Republicans oppose the Muslim center, as do 65 percent of independents and 53 percent of Democrats. Washington post poll

Broken down by party affiliation, 54 percent of Democrats oppose the plans while 82 percent of Republicans disapprove. Meanwhile, 70 percent of independents said they are against the proposal. CNN POLL

The list goes on and on, and it is not just along party lines as people of every race, religion and economic spectrum have come out against this project.

The news reports on MSNBC as well as other news reports I have seen in the past put the opposition to the mosque at about 70% with some even higher.

It amuses me that you can call us bigoted bloggers, when islam is the most bigoted religion in the entire world. And it's not just a 'few' people who feel this way; I would say that 71% is the majority of people in the United States. If you could add in all the people in Europe who are saying 'stop them now or you'll end up like us' we would probably have a full 100%. Don't try to make it sound like we are bigots; go talk to your muslim buddies about that...if they weren't so damned sure of their entitlement to do what ever they want, because they think they are better than us...this would not even be a question.

RobBob: Thanks for your posts..your info' is what I've been reading as well, and I've done a lot of reading during my near UNEMPLOYMENT status!

Why people are making this so complicated is beyond me..but having support of our anti-American Prez certainly isn't helping, either!

I agree, a lot of Muslims are very intolerant of non-Muslims. Just as a vast amount of Christians are intolerant of non-Christians, and so on and so forth for pretty much all religions. I still stand by my earlier comment though, just because other groups are bigots too doesn't make you guys any less bigoted.

You're right, they have no constitutional right to build it.

However the Government cannot say they can't build it there purely because of their religious beliefs.

cascadia-586084 :you're right, they have no constitutional right to build it. However the Government cannot say they can't build it there purely because of their religious beliefs.

Yes they can, try reading my post.

Also, General Welfare. No reason to put the Mosque there instead of 10 blocks (or 10 miles) away. It will not cause pain for a Muslim to go an extra 10 blocks to worship. No discrimination.

No! I don't have to, you can't make me! (petulent child) oh wait, I sound like the muslims. sorry.

bbq rib place moving in next door? pulled pork sandwiches anyone?

Paul,, I like you thinking !

This would solve two problems at once in stopping the spread of two unwanted this, feral pigs and RADICAL ISLAM-ist who want a trophy mosque.

There is nothing MODERATE about building a GROUND ZERO MOSQUE against the wishes of the MAJORITY of AMERICANS.

Will it really work? Sounds too easy!

Already did it :- )

retardation has no limits...grow up.. We got more problems here than worrying about the Islamic Center..... Unemployment, recession, foreclosures, etc...let them build the center if they want to.

Hey are you sure they won't find a way to build the mosque if the grounds are pig-soiled? I'd like to see believers of god with single mum and those who believe in god that wants blood sacrifices of the 'infidels' go on like this forever! Why don't these people learn sense....... seeing their gods have never come to save them rather these BELIEVERS have killed other humans to protect their goods...

it's Gods instead of goods in the last line of post#19.6

If you actually read those books you will understand how that party won over the workers to their cause by purposely adding "socialist" into the party name, although they were not socialists and demonizing an entire religion to create a false enemy for the workers to blame all of their troubles on.

I ask, who in America is spreading lies and demonizing an entire religion?

I ask, who in America is spreading lies and demonizing an entire religion?

i think the people spreading lies like "9/11 was an inside job" and demonizing an entire country like "Death to America" would fit your analogy better.

What religion is trying to shove sharia law down Europes throat?

none, moron...your preacher is lying to you

Woodchuck, no preacher has lied to me; I don't believe in organized religion, I have investigated what is happening to other countries because of the muslims and islam and I don't want that for America...and obviously 71% of the people in this country agree. Why did the Germans close the mosque where the 9/11 terrorists collaborated? Because it was still going on, they were using the same mosque again to plot the terror. Why do you think Australia gave them the boot? Because they have seen by everyone else's misery what the muslims are up to. Why do you think France is banning the burqa? Because they are sick of the muslim interference in THEIR country. The muslims posting on here might as well give up; you aren't going to change anyone's mind here, and you can't fool us, the jig is up. Go home, we don't want islam, sharia law or you (if you have take over in mind) in our country. Shut up, forget the mosque at ground zero, worship in peace and you are welcome to stay, just like anyone else with permission to be here. WE WILL NOT TOLERATE A TAKE OVER OF OUR COUNTRY BY AN INTOLERANT RELIGION SUCH A ISLAM; AND SHARIA LAW, FORGET ABOUT IT!

No! A Mafia summit is not likely to be as explosive.

actually mizz you're quoting the "spin" number. Every poll I've seen is over 70%.

And Joseph McCarthy probably had a similar level of support ... until a minority of truly brave Americans stood up to him and proved him wrong.

The last number I heard was 76%

They have no idea how rude we can be.....yet.

The Muslims have patriced Religous discrimination more than anyother people in their own Countries ! And while we are taking about discrimination I hope all the women I see post in favor of this Mosque think about how Muslim regard Women of all faiths !

What do you know about Sharia Law? Places like Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Afghanistan, Yemen, and Iran have Sharia Islamic Law today. In these states Christians are persecuted by law for having Christian fellowship or prayer or bibles in their homes. How could any Christian be in favor of Sharia Law? IGNORANCE?

The Palestinian Authority has adopted an official constitution based on Sharia Islamic Law, rendering all people living in the PA subject to Islamic Law. Hundreds of Christians living in areas ruled by the PA have been arrested and imprisoned for holding church services or conducting public Christian practices without authorization. Some of these Christians were SET FREE in 2002 when the IDF took over control of what had been PA-controlled cities. The truth is that no one can openly practice Christianity in Bethlehem under the watchful eyes of the PLO's Islamic police force. The only place in the West Bank where the PLO army currently operates is in the Bethlehem area. The US-funded Palestinian public school system has become Islamicized. Christians have literally been tortured to death by nice Islamic schoolmates. It is important to understand Sharia Islamic Law. Under Sharia Law, other religions, such as Christianity, Judaism, will be openly, legally, PERSECUTED. Any religion other than Islam will be denied equal rights."

Islamic Sharia and religious law is an extremely efficient tool of religious, and racial oppression. It is also a very effective tool for class oppression, gender subordination, and intimidation of dissenting intellectuals. Oppression is what Sharia law is all about. Sharia Law completely obliterates, annihilates, and extinguishes the humanity of those who are subjected to its terror.

Islamic Sharia law is strongly supported by the affluent few. It persecutes the poorest and most vulnerable among those living under the tyranny and terror of Sharia Law. In most countries with Sharia Law the Jews and Christians have been killed or left long ago. The poor are the ones to be flogged, amputated. The vast majority of the people who live under Sharia Law are people deemed "dispensable," and to whom human rights do NOT exist. The vast majority of people living under the terror and tyranny of Sharia Law have no basic human rights. The people are subjected to the Sharia atrocities. The masses under Sharia Law have NO CHOICE or chance to a secular trial, where they could be imprisoned, instead of having hands of feet amputated. The vast majority will be quickly flogged, amputated, or executed.

The existence of Sharia Islamic law, by its very nature, means the negation of any other mode of dispensing justice to all be the very affluent few. When faced with amputation; no human being, no matter how devout, will ever choose amputation over imprisonment! We should be aware of the REALITY that amputation is the punishment of petty thieves. In societies under Sharia Islamic law, the REALITY is that big time thieves, are rewarded. Who would not choose the prison term rather than the permanent damage caused by amputation? The very affluent elite may get a choice, but NO Christian, or any of the masses under the terror and tyranny of Sharia Islamic law, will get the choice. It is AMPUTATION of Hand, Foot, or Head.

Under Sharia law it is absolutely impossible for women to hope for secular family law existing side by side with Islamic religious law. It is folly to think that under Sharia law that a woman can hope for a divorce or a custody case to be reviewed before a secular court. The essence of Islamic Sharia is to give men the right to control women and deprive them from the freedom to choose as can be seen from the obsession of fundamentalists with women's dress and behavior. Under Sharia law women's private lives is what the religious laws are uncompromisingly eager to control. Subjecting women to Islamic Sharia laws by so-called personal status law, or family law, allows men to completely dominate them. We should also remember that Sharia-based family law, approves and sanctions slavery. Any Sharia law state where men slaves were able to get access to civil courts, to be set free, still keeps it impossible for women slaves. Sharia law essentially makes it impossible for a female slave to obtain freedom without the consent of her owner.

A great example of Muslim characteristic hypocrisy may be seen in the Islamic states which allowed the so called binary legal system. In these states Islamic Sharia law would coexist side by side with secular law. The Islamic Sharia law promoters are notorious for fanatically assassinating their foes, and abusing women. Sharia law promoters muzzle, intimidate, and assassinate journalists and intellectuals. The Sharia law promoters establish death Fatwas. That is how Sharia law promoters deal with any form of literary criticism. I will likely get several death Fatwas for exposing the truth in this little article. But my God is bigger than their god.

To think the two law systems can possibly coexist within the same neighborhood with people they consider ungodly infidels, who should be brought back to Islam with the sword, in accordance with the holy scripture, illustrates typical Muslim hypocrisy and absurdity. It is mind-boggling, and absurd, to expect the forces of religious darkness, whose program is the very antithesis of democracy, or tolerance, and basic human dignity, such as Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, to live peacefully and tolerantly with those whom they consider the friends and partners of Satan! All Islamic states during the last fourteen centuries testify to this reality and fact.

Real and recent Muslim history is replete with assassinations, murders of millions. Attacking political rivals with guns and knives, in Muslim universities, is common. Muslim reality is replete with violent attacks against cultural exhibits and book burning is so common as to not be counted. Muslim reality is replete with murderous dictatorships. Flogging women may shock Christians but to the Muslim it is standard operating procedure. Torture may be outrageous to the Christian but it is standard operating procedure to the Muslim. The Muslim religion is the religion of Jihad, the holy war, because the god of Islam is the moon god, the war god of Lucifer. Tell me if you ever find a Muslim mosque without a crescent moon symbol of the moon god of war. Ever hear of a Christian suicide bomber? All of the suicide bombers you hear about are Muslims. This horror is the satanic demonic religion of Islam. This horror is standard operating procedure in Sharia Islamic law states. War with Terror should mean resisting them, and exposing their cruel essence.

Reality in countries under Sharia Islamic law will see poor men and women being caught and accused of drinking and contemplating fornication or adultery, by terror police officers, who are the most insatiable drunkards and adulterers on earth by any standard. Reality in Sharia Islamic law states sees poor men sentenced to flogging in the morning by judges who are suffering from hangover after drinking too much the night before. Reality in Sharia Islamic law states sees the state bureaucracy controlled by