Many people have a stake in the legacy of Sept. 11
Article Source: msnbc.com
from:msnbc.comMosque debate reveals ground zero emotions
Seeded on Sun Sep 5, 2010 2:28 PM EDT (msnbc.com)
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"The city's Muslims, many of them, lost a willingness to speak out." This is a shame that we aren't being better educated on WHO they are, and WHAT they really believe. I did read the Koran, and it seemed to ramble a bit, and it's hard to follow, lots of repetition and contratictions.I know by now there are 2 sides, those who hate Muslims and the Muslim spin showing they are all peaceful people. Some where in the middle is the truth. We may never know it because it's all so polarized at this point.
It is a shame that we aren't better educated to know it doesn't matter WHO they are or WHAT they really believe, its a little thing called FREEDOM. Educate yourself on it.
I am getting tired and a bit disappointed with so many Americans (used loosely) who are on the complete opposite side of what it means to even be an American.
"It is a shame that we aren't better educated to know it doesn't matter WHO they are or WHAT they really believe, its a little thing called FREEDOM."
Okay. I'll agree with that to a certain point. It is nice to know, however, the ones who are trying to destroy every ounce of "what it means to be an American." That means people from all walks of life, from the Muslim extremist to Timothy McVeigh.
Good so you have a problem with criminals. Why even mention the Koran or Muslims then?
Follow the money.
phuck all organised religion. i would not want a mosque, catholic church or a synagogue build near anything but freaking a strip joint. they are all a bunch of money grubbing hypocritical pieces of $hit.
In USA and Europe we don't allow Nazis to respect Hitler though many Nazis believe Hitler is a prophet/God. We don't allow freedom of religion for Nazis. A few months ago a NJ couples son was taken away from their parents because they named their son Adolf Hitler. We ridicule and mock Hitler.
Muhammad was a slave owner. He owned and trade black slaves. He married his son's wife and had sex. Muhammad had sex with his female slaves.
The western world should have the moral courage and ban anyone respecting a slave owner as a prophet. We don't give respect to Hitler and there is no reason why we should respect Muhammad.
Peace,
Brown Skinned Immigrant
Note: I am consistent I believe all slave owners including american founding fathers and Muhammad the islamic prophet is now rotting in hell. Slavery is an absolute sin.
Thomas C.M.- Nazisism is not a religion. Thomas Jefferson had sex with his slaves and fathered slave children. Let's not get started on Red State Marriages, lots and lots of Red State folk married their COUSINS TOO!! Nasty!!!!
I love it how you made a point and then shot down your own point in the end!
rock,
Who are you or me to to say Nazism is not a religion? If a Nazi want to believe Adolf is a prophet who are you or me to say it is wrong other than to ridicule Hitler or Nazis? USA do not respect Hitler and there is no reason why people have to respect Muhammad.
Jefferson is not my God you idiot and no Christians are trying to live like Jefferson.
Freedom - it also means we can PROTEST the things people do not want or agree with, as a group or as individuals who do not believe in or are opposed to something/some issue, for what ever reason, be it personal, religious, etc.
Just as Americans have freedoms/rights to want to build a mosque, other Americans have the freedom and the right, to protest it. Make no mistake, it makes us no less American for it. Just as you have the freedonm and right to speak out either for or against it, post your views or say we are being anti-American, you, as well as every person posting, is being and excersizing their American right and freedoms to post, oppose or support what is happening at Ground Zero.
What is really getting tiring is one set of Americans saying it is UN-American for other Americans to protest it!
Equal rights for BOTH sides, that's AMERICAN, that's FREEDOM.
Nazism is not a religion by any accepted definition of the word. It is a political and economic system.
Actually, I encourage your right to say what you wish -- to protest. If you can peacefully protest and get them to change their mind, go for it. That is your right. However, and this is a BIG however, the MOMENT any coercion is involved, then it becomes a constitutional issue.
But, stop and think for a minute. One of the things America always touts, why we are "better" than some Islamic countries, is our religious freedom. We complain about how they treat Christians. Shouldn't we live up to our own ideals -- whether it's popular or not -- and treat Muslims, ESPECIALLY American Muslims, as we wish Christians were treated around the world?
There are those who define themselves, not so much as to what they are for… but rather what or whom they are against. For them the complexities of an issue are not things to be debated, explored or somehow considered but rather simplified, even eliminated outright in accordance with their own “perceived” self-interests. Typically, these are parties who react emotionally as opposed to thinking critically. In a word they are haters! They hate you and I, they hate the "other" and they hate Muslims. To this add a big dollop of self inflicted ignorance - for most of these reactionaries the only knowledge of history is what they get from A FOX News chalk board. Jesus save me from your followers!
Redphish,
If a Nazi want to worship Hitler as God who are you to say theirs is not a religion? All what we can do is ridicule Hitler and Muhammad who are inconsistent with the modern western civilization.
1955: You can sit on the bus, just not THERE.
2010: You can build a Mosque, just not THERE
I like your style Calgary Girl.
As I said on a previous vine, I'm disappointed that more anger hasn't been directed toward NYC officials for spanking their monkeys for 9 years on the actual Ground Zero site. If there were a completed new development and a proper 9/11 Memorial, this would be either a) less of an issue or b) not an issue at all.
As is, a Mosque may be completed before the Ground Zero sight is redeveloped, something that is unacceptable. I place the blame on that on the NYC officials, not the Muslims behind the Cordoba/Park 51 Mosque / Community Center.
Hitler did not represent himself a being a deity. Saying that the German people worshiped him as a God is no more valid than when people claim Democrats worship Obama as one.
he just replaced the Bibles and crucifixes in churches with copies of Mein Kampf and the swastika (and he actually did), but i can see how there was nothing religious about Nazism whatsoever.
I'm not religious at all, but seems to me that you go over saudi arabia and try to build a christian church you can't. If you try to build a christian church next to any bombed out mosque location anywhere in the middle east you'd be denied or burned or bombed yourself. So I feel these people need to find a different location and stop this crapola over here NOW.
Redphish I have no doubt ,from reading your posts you consider Obama your messiah. As to what the nazi's felt about Adolph you might watch "The Boys From Brazil" it might open your eyes.
USVet66,
Timmy V did not hate the entire western world of infidels, he hated the US government. Big difference.
Didn't Abdel Rahman use his NY "cultural center" to craft his deadly deed? I say build it and throw a little patriot act into the foundation.
And how do we honor the 9/11 victims........With a office building God Bless capitalism
Rock/redphish,
There is no single accepted definition of "religion", as there are many. One of them is "A set of strongly-held beliefs, values and attitudes that somebody lives by". The word "deity" isn't necessarily required in the definition. So Nazi ism, by the definition I found, fits within that definition for "religion". Islam and Nazi ism share that definition...as does Christianity.
Redphish,
Would you deny a person/Nazi to have Hitler as his prophet or God? I want to know how much you are ready to give the freedom or religion for Nazis.
In NJ a couple who named their son Adolf Hitler lost their child to social services. Shouldn't social services taking kids who are named Muhammad.
Just face it they want to build this here as a symbol of triumph for what happened on 9/11.
How do we honor 9/11 victims?...with an office building. God Bless capitalism. The best way we could honor the 9/11 WTC victims would be to build three towers with the center tower the tallest like a giant middle finger pointing toward Afghanistan and bin Hidin' !!!
what a joke they are worried about a mosque within two blocks and there is a strip club with in two blocks, relax, yawn, watch this instead http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub36ffWAqgQ&ob=av2e yeah Phoenix,, much better than this hooey ehh?
Watch this Randy -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUezKsBCRbk
This is the level of hate in the Muslim world. Does not sound like they like us very much, so why should we let them build a house of worship on hollowed ground?
That's because Saudi Arabia isn't the United States. They don't have our first amendment freedoms. We do. I quite prefer that we keep said freedoms and not model of government after that of Saudi Arabia as you have suggested.
Hitler is very worshiped - attend any white power gathering and witness the anger - is it anydifferent than the Islamic hate tapes one can find (today we can find anything to back up a point - doesn't mean it is valid for a majority). The fact that the KKK and other white hate groups exist - is testament to the fact many places in the USA tolerate Hitler/Nazi worship.
Imagine you are an Iraqi, watching all the drama over one day. Match that up to your last 8 years - 9-11 was peanuts compared to their daily life.
It will come down to the owners of such properties and their perspective buyers - a good capitalist isn't going to accept a lesser offer - just the way it is in the USA. New Yorkers should ban together and buy as much property as they feel is justified - otherwise you/they/we are not a player in the deal. Throw money at the 51 project - if the Muslims still don't want to move - then maybe their motive is to rub it in.
And leave Obama out of it - unless Federal buildings are planned for the site - he has no say in the deal - It's a New York City issue.
Discussing the Mosque again near Ground Zero?
Why haven't we heard further plans from our Government, Rauf and his followers on this subject.
It is too quiet. Something is brewing. The Shock Wave is over. Did anyone listen to the Majority of New Yorkers or the entire Majority of this Country on moving it somewhere else?
Where's Rauf?
CalgaryGirl...the lady on the bus wasn't part of a religious group wanting to blow up buildings in our country or kill our citizens. She was fighting for her freedom and equal rights as a human being...nothing at all to do with religion. Not a very good example there.
Had these people stood up and LOUDLY declared they are not associated with these bad muslims and at least made some gesture against them then maybe this outrage wouldn't have occurred. But they're silence seems to condone the actions of these bad muslims. A day late and a dollor short it seems.
Personally I don't care what anyone wants to believe in...pray to rocks for all I care! But as soon as your "religion" involves killing innocent people...you got my attention! And as far as I'm concerned your no longer part of a "peaceful" religion...your now part of a cult and any "religious freedom" you were hoping to get just fell to the ground along with some 3000 human beings.
First MSNBC and the left need to decide if it is a Cultural Center or the GROUND ZERO MOSQUE, if it is a cultural center then it has no 1st Amendment protection.
If it is the GROUND ZERO MOSQUE then it is an insult to all that gave their lives on 9-11 and is nothing more than a monument to the hijackers.
Why this building, how did they get it so cheap, was it because part of one of the planes hit it?
Do a Google search of mosque in Manhattan and see how many are in the area, why do they need another one, it's not like they don't already have some in the area.
And some folks used to have to use different water fountains and sit only in the back of buses and use the back door while other could use the front.
OK have been thinking about it. If this ground zero is such hallowed ground how come it's 10 years later and still nothing has been built. Screw it let em build the mosque. Geez.
Alan Pugh
That's because Saudi Arabia isn't the United States. They don't have our first amendment freedoms. We do. I quite prefer that we keep said freedoms and not model of government after that of Saudi Arabia as you have suggested.
#1.30 - Sun Sep 5, 2010 11:18 PM CDT
WOW What a revelation.
i agree with you, America is letting too much stuff go on & they are going to take over our country. we have to stand up and say no, if you dont like it go back. i am religious and God gave us sense to protect our country.
1
They don't not seem to be a peaceful people they kill anyone that disagrees with them.... must be why the libs like them.. But here the libs can only collapse other people views.
AKRandy
I guess you figure all Muslims are the same. All "libs" are the same. Life is easier when you can judge the whole group from the actions of a few or judge an individual based on your hatred and intolerance of their culture, religion, skin color, sexual orientation, gender or some other characteristic. Right?
Bigotry and racism free you from the difficult task of thinking and reasoning, from understanding what the Constitution really means. You are typical of so many people who care about the Constitution when it is guaranteeing your rights, but not so much when the rights belong to someone else.
Is it your assertion that all Muslims are terrorist?
More empty rhetoric by a political lemming. Name me reasonable liberal who supports terrorism.
This is a sample of what must be explained within a constitutional democracy. In the words of the Prophet:
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him." -Koran 3:85
"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them." -Koran 5:51
"Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers." -Koran 3.151
"I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." -Koran 8:12
"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know." -Koran 8:60
According to the translation provided by Ayatuallah Ja'far Subhani, upon the capture of the Kabah in Mecca, the Profit spoke:
"Bear in mind that every claim of privilege, whether that of blood or property is abolished . . . I reject all claims relating to life and property and all imaginary honors of the past, and declare them to be baseless . . . A Muslim is the brother of another Muslim and all the Muslims are brothers of one another and constitute one hand as against the non-Muslims. The blood of every one of them is equal to that of others and even the smallest among them can make a promise on behalf of others."
Not all Muslims are the problem, just as not all Christians blow up abortion clinics . The bottom line is a little consideration by moving this Mosque / Community center and I'll be behind it, but continue to act ignorant and tone deaf to the slap at 9/11 families it represents in the current location and I'll continue to voice my opposition.
Time to break out the tar and feathers for the scum, supporting the Islamic victory monument at the Twin Towers.
puh-leeze, nobody's bombed an abortion clinic in years, that's because Christianity doesn't teach that sort of behavior. but Muslims kill people every day because that's what their religion teaches.
Mateo
How do you explain the right wing Christian nut who was recently convicted of murdering a doctor who performed abortions? Kind of the same deal as bombing a clinic. Christianity taught him and many Christians defended his actions as "defending the unborn." Most Christians, for some reason that escapes me, are in favor of the death penalty, contrary to the Commandment. I am glad you were not taught those things, but many Christians were.
In years? So Christianity taught it then, but not now? It would have been OK to hate all Christians then, but not anymore?
They blew up abortion clinics in the name of Jesus Christ. Christians doing things that most American Christians consider wrong and in violation of their faith. And those acts were done by Americans! People who grew up in a stable country, relatively free of violence and poverty.
Al Qaeda blew up a commercial building in the name of Allah. Muslims doing things that most Muslim Americans consider extremely wrong and in violation of their faith. And those acts were done by foreign militants! People who were raised in a corrupt government, full of violence and poverty.
I'm not saying you should sympathize with Al Qaeda in any way. Kill every last member of that terrorist group. But don't hate or punish innocent American Muslims.
The Islamists want it built there for a reason: It's polarizing. They want their side polarized from Western ways, and yet they want to display outrage over so-called religious intolerance... tolerance of other religions that Islam does not recognize or respect. Despite the obvious hypocracy by the Islamists in terms of bilateral tolerance, more moderate Muslims should recognize the sensitivities of others. Yet they (the so-called moderates) won't; this religion lacks introspection; it is insular and thus never respects outside opinions or sensitivities.
As a liberal Democrat, I don't want that mosque built. It will only embolden the crazies in the Middle East as a symbol of 9/11 victory, and it will only contribute to further hatred between Islamists and Americans... which is exactly why the Islamists are provoking this confrontation.
Why can't people get that?
I couldn't have said it better
Lance
Who are you trying to kid. Liberal Democrat? You? I don't think so. Nice try though. This is only polarizing for those of you who think that an entire religion, an entire culture, must share the blame for the actions of a few of its members. Are you willing to take the blame or share the credit with those Christians who carry the "God hates fags" banners at military funerals? The KKK considers itself a Christian organization. Are you down with their actions and beliefs?
Islamists and Americans?
This is the third post I've had to explain this on, which is really sad, but here we go again...
America is a term commonly used for United States of America, a country between Canada and Mexico. It is a country, a land mass, not to be confused with religion.
Islam is a religion, which is a belief system that people use as a guide to help them live the most healthy lifestyle within that religion's culture. Many people practice religion, but some don't.
In America (the country), we are free to practice Islam (the religion) or any other religion that we'd like. Religion is more of a concept, it doesn't have borders. It is very different from a country.
LMAO, Alan!!
Sadly, I think there are few people who still didn't get it.......
Alan:
Your are wrong to think of Islam as a religion in the same construct as we commonly use Christianity, Buddhism, etc.
Islam is the ultimate law to believers, usurping all works and laws of man. There is no tolerance for different points of view within this. In the words of the Prophet, there is no other religion or law and those that follow other religions or laws are not worthy of the rights of a believer. Please see my post above with a sampling of statements from the Koran.
But one can sample JUST as many inflammatory statements in the Bible -- if not more.
Christianity and Islam are both Abrahamic religions with much of the same cast, crew, and content. The basic tenets of both are exceptionally similar.
What is the first commandment? From Exodus 20:3? "You shall have no other god before me." Is it bad when Christians say it too? Pretty much every religious text from every major religion says "you shall only follow this religion's version of a god or prophet." That's not unique to Islam.
I'm pretty sure there's a passage where God murders a guy for not ejaculating inside his brother's wife after God made him have sex with her (outside of marriage). There's disturbing verses in most religious texts, they're usually ignored by followers and highlighted by naysayers.
Do a little research on Hasidic Judaism. The similarity between the strictness of their observance of fundamentalist Jewish law and punishing people that transgress them is striking.
The point is that Judaism and Christianity both recognize civil law. Render unto Caesar and all of that. Islam makes no allowance for the civil space. Islamic civil law must be based on Koranic law. Islam allows for caliphates, not democracy as we think of it. Even traditional business matters, such as bonds or sukuk, must have clerical approval to be valid in an Islamic court.
Alan, you reference Old Testament, I don't believe you'll find anything similar to your reference in the New Testament, or the words of the Christan's Prophet. However, the intolerant words of the Islamic Prophet are clear on the face.
Lance is right on. The Imam is trying to drive a wedge between the Western World and the Followers of Islam, that is what our enemys want. Obama and the other fools fell into their trap.
Kudos, Michael. You beat me to the punch.
Jesus never intended Christianity to exist in a theocracy (though some wrong-headed Christians have tried). We are to 'render unto Caesar' and be 'in the world, not of the world'.
Some will never get it, that Islam was created to be a theocracy wherever it geographically exists.
Why did God kill Onan for spilling his seed on the ground? The reason God did this is not because Onan wasted his seed on the ground, but because Onan refused to perform his familial duties of producing offspring for his brother's. This was a great offense at the time. Now, we must realize that the culture was very different than ours is today. In that culture, when a man died and left no children, the next of kin was sometimes obligated to "go in to" the wife and produce children. These children were then considered to be the descendents of the original late husband and would be raised as such. This way, the offspring would be able to take care of the mother, provide more people for the community, and thereby raise their own children, continuing the name of that family. Onan knew this and refused to take part in furthering the honor and name of the brother's wife and thereby also risking provision for her in the future. To this, God was very displeased and took Onan's life.
Tom, you say "the culture was very different than ours is today." I hope you understand that to an agnostic fellow such as myself, that sounds like an attempt to explain away a part of the Bible that you disagree with, much like people do with poly/cotton blend clothing and eating shellfish, which sort of makes my point...
There are parts of every holy book that even the believers shy away from or explain away. The vilifying of Islam by Christians is no different than the vilifying of Christianity by Muslims... most posters here just happen to support the side that they're on and pretend there's no hypocrisy in that.
Howard, it could just as easily be said that not allowing the mosque to be built will play as a great recruiting tool for Muslims that were under the false impression that, as US citizens, the first amendment applied to them.
We can't shoot down the first amendment when it makes Christians uncomfortable, we've created enough enemies since 2003 anyway... we don't need to overturn the first amendment and start creating more.
Where is the condemnation of all the car suicide acts, killing thousands of innocent people, (all over the world), and where is the condemnation of the War declared upon America in NY on 9/11?
America is still waiting for the followers of this Religion to make some kind of statement. There must be some Group or Leaders who can make peace that they are with the Americans, (including themselves as US Citizens); 100 per cent of the way against Extreme Islamic Terrorism.
So ... "wrong headed" Christians are not really Christians? I guess you're referring to those "extremist" Christians. Then I would also say that "wrong headed" Muslims, aka "extremists" are not truly Muslim. No difference. Extremism is extremism. Christians don't like it when ALL Christians are equated with the like of Dennis Rader, Jim Jones, etc. Well, why is it any different with Muslims? The answer is ... it's not.
Beth, you missed my point entirely.
I would not be so obtuse as to label those who go against the stated commands of Jesus as non-Christians. That is like saying a parent who neglects to pick up their kid at sports practice because they are drunk can no longer be a parent. Christianity believes all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There will, of course, be consequences for these parents, but there always exists the ability to be forgiven and 'to go and sin no more'.
Both Christianity and Islam have provisions that prohibit us from offending others by our actions. I would not dream of proposing a Christian church in Mecca as to not offend any Islamic sensibilities. Granted in the past Christianity was backwards on the respect issues, to put it mildly, but I am hoping the 21st century has brought some enlightenment to both religions.
Where is the Muslim enlightenment? Research the recent Cordoba Initiative--an initiative indicating the desire to 'bring back the atmosphere of interfaith tolerance and respect that we have longed for since Muslims, Christians and Jews lived together in harmony and prosperity eight hundred years ago' (their words). Now, research the history of Cordoba Spain under Islamic conquest for those not 'fortunate' enough to be Muslim. Then you will realize that the use of Cordoba was deliberate code to the rest of the Muslim world
But I digress. Jesus never wanted Christianity to be a theocracy. To do so and not repent/turn back from this action is to go against His wishes and to be subject to His final judgment.
Mohammad insisted upon it.
Perhaps I missed what you INTENDED to say, but your Freudian slip is showing.
I just plain don't understand why Christians will "excuse" all excesses by simply stating the offenders are "not Christians" yet when there are Muslim extremists -- ALL Muslims become extremists.
Alan did a great job explaining:
EXACTLY!
Just to be clear -- I'm equally opposed to extremists of all ilk!
This Mosque idea is a huge middle finger salute from Islam to America. Wake up people Islam is not a religion but a Billion person cult.
The couple behind the ground zero mosque are Sufi. They belong to the mystical branch of Islam, actually persecuted in hard line Islamic countries like Iran and the Sudan. The widely read poet, Rumi, was a Sufi. The Sufi are certainly moderate. They practice art, and listen to music. The Whirlling Dervishes are Sufi. Encouragement of Sufi houses of worship and spread of their beliefs in the US would confound hard line Muslims and go a long way toward improving US relations with the moderate Muslim community.
I don't hate all religions
I just hate Islam
So you are saying it is okay to be a bigot if you are only show bigotry to Muslims. That would be like a white person saying they are not a racist because they only hate black people.
Kristi
FITNA
Tar and fearhers for anyone supporting the Islamic victory monument.
I don't know what exactly is the correct thing to do regarding the matter of the Plaza 51 (Islamic center and mosque). I do know, however, that the attack on 9/11 was one of the most devastating tragedies to befall our country and our citizens. I live on the west coast so was not in the immediate vicinity of this event. I thought I had overcome the shock that struck all of us until recently our area experienced two sonic booms as a result of F-15's scrambling to intercept a small plane during President Obama's visit. I was ready to hit the deck and dive under my desk. Is this fear reasonable? I don't think so. Neither is the fear that continues in our country after all this time. Our country is founded on the freedom to pursue what ever religion a person wishes. I wish they all were equally outspoken in their tenets so the mystery of some was exposed. Personally, I don't think any religious structure should be erected near "ground zero". So, what, what is the correct thing to do for all of us?
what about the total distruction of Iraq and the murder and thousands of innocent people - that is our terrorisim, our torture etc. then we built the biggest embassy in the world on Iraqi soil. I see the trend.
Another keyboard Rambo, bashing America.
Donate your money and time.
Hang around there a lot.
8 deleted, thetruthonlykell death-trolling a billion people:
Banned, useless.
The couple behind the ground zero mosque are Sufi. Sufis are a mystical branch of Islam and are persecuted in hard line Muslim countries like Sudan and Iran. Many in the west have read their famous poet, Rumi, and seen the Whirlling Dervishes on world wide tours. Sufis practice art, music, and dance where allowed and were once widely embraced in Muslim countries. A Sufi mosque at ground zero would confound hardline Muslims and go a long way toward mutual understanding between east and west. One wonders how many people objecting to the mosque even know what Sufism is.
They are "sufi" for the name only: a wolf in a sheep's attire. How "sufi" (moderate) he is, please check what he says at youtube and you will see his real face. His wife is a paki-american (claims to be from Kashmir, India....because the word "paki" is well-known now) who wrote her family name as "Kahn" on her tax returns (why????). He was a waiter and she was a janitor and now suddenly "Millionnaire" within 7-8 yrs (at this economic meltdown's time...How???). These sort of guys are "kahn" or "sufi" when they are waitor or janitor but "Khan" and "Bridge-builder" when they have money....!!! They want to make "bridge"....now one can see how they have made this "bridge"....what happens when this "bridge" completes.......????
linper
The fact that your post (#9) has been collapsed gives credence to the validity of your facts and shows how the petty liberals here can't tolerate truth.
Linper - buy using terms like "paki" and "Khan" in the racist manner in which you do, you show your true colors. Thanks. All I needed to know about you. My apologies if bringing up Stormfront in my above post hit a little too close to home.....
The race card again. When without a clue, just use the race card.
Yes there are good Muslims! But there is only one Koran.It teaches subjugation,domination and oppression.Sufism is still followers of the Koran and it is all for Islam also.We are not talking about divisions in a church .We are talking about a cult that would just as soon kill their own if they veer from the Koran.There is no leeway.You can't be kind of a Muslim.
Anybody wondering why it is the "Cordoba" project? Doesn't sound too Middle Eastern, does it? That's because it comes from the city of Cordoba in Spain, where the Muslims conquered in the Middle Ages and built a mosque right on top of a demolished Catholic Church. That alone makes me very suspicious of the motives.
It was the Catholic Cathedral in Cordoba. For Catholics a Cathedral is a special place of worship and the message of tearing it down and replacing it with a Mosque is clear and it is not a message of peace.
That is not, however, why the project is called Cordoba. Cordoba under the Umayyids was one of the few times in history that Muslims, Christians and Jews lived in the same place in relative harmony.
Also, the church there now is a cathedral, but the original church was not, I think.
Something like the Dome of the Rock?
why is that the people I talk with from over seas countries are terrified of the muslim masses.
that they have too dress in muslim attire on friday too keep from being ostrecised if they go outside of thier homes.
The "mosque debate" shows much more than merely "ground-zero emotions".
The mosque debate illustrates the American reaction to 9/11 and to Islam in general. Notice that, following 9/11, there were no pogrom-style movements against Muslims; there was no general violence based upon religious belief. However, after 91/, Americans increasingly observed how Islam comports itself, both in America and in Islamic societies.
What Americans saw - amply displayed by Muslims themselves - were archaic, punitive, prohibitive cultures that seem based on rage, hate, anger, vengeance, mob-mentality, duplicity, ignorance, medieval mindsets, and facist religiosity. Moreover, Americans observed that American Muslims remained almost totally silent about their opinions of 9/11. That silence, which continues to this day, was and is construed as being tacitly in agreement with Islamic terrorist tactics and goals.
Beyond 9/11, Americans observed quite a few American Muslims suddenly launch surprise terrorist acts against their fellow Americans, citing a devotion to Islam as the impetus for those terrorist acts. To non-Muslim American ears, the phrase "allahu akbar" (sic) has become almost synonymous with an act of terrorism.
Don't blame "The Americans"!; this is what Muslims and Islamic societies themselves have displayed to the world.
Muslims have a perfect legal right to build a mosque wherever municipal codes permit.
The "mosque debate" is merely a manifestation of the very deep-seated distrust with which non-Muslim Americans view American Muslims. Through their own actions and/or inactions, Muslims have brought this distrust upon themselves. This is the enduring price that American Muslims are paying for the actions of Islamic terrorists and for their own silence regarding those actions.
BMette, thank you.
Right on!
Bmette,
What about your silence, and the silence of all other people like you, about the murdered victims of American terrorists?
Do you have any idea how many Iraqi or Afghani children and innocents have been killed by American bombs?
Fmr. SecState Madeline Albright is on the record, on video, saying that the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children was "worth it" to keep Saddam in control - the same man who they were doing business with, and providing weapons to, less than 10 years earlier.
Muslims around the world are very, very familiar with deafening silence from Americans on such crimes that are several times larger than 9/11. Do you see them blaming all Americans or Christians for the actions of these individuals?
No you don't.
hey saul. did you forget that saddam hussien after the first gulf war gassed the kurds in the moutians of iraq just to see if the gas really worked? worked good huh? are they not killing each other in iraq right now without any help from the americans? women children whoever... right ? and what does the taliban do to thier own people? and how many of those 500.000 deaths were caused by thier own people? you are right america needs to stay out of it and let you guys kill each other all you want. your business. but hell man we keep getting drug into your business........iraq invaded kuwait not the US they asked us to help so we did. just like WW1 and WW11......saddam deserved what he got. no more no less. yes iraq and afhganistan have suffered enough, but at the hands of thier own people who want to be in power. not the americans, we really are only trying to help. as with all conflicts i throw the blame on those who started it. and last time i checked america does not start wars. the second gulf war was a direct result of the things that happened in the first gulf war where saddam agreed to be a good boy, and the UN believed him. but you are entitled to how you feel. i can understand your point, though, a lot of innocent people died as a direct result of those who are in power who used bad judement. it's just that you and me are gonna disagree on just who those people are. fair.
So Iraq attacked us? I don't remember that.
kilroy 63 ... in order to preserve your integrity in this discussion I strongly suggest you do some research before you go off on a rant.
You said: did you forget that saddam hussien after the first gulf war gassed the kurds in the moutians of iraq just to see if the gas really worked?
Actually he was killing the Kurds long before the Gulf War, with weapons provided by the USA, and with American knowledge - but no one cared because it was just business. Donald Rumsfeld is on the public record happily shaking hands with Saddam Hussein.
You said: and how many of those 500.000 deaths were caused by thier own people?
None. All 500,000 of those deaths were children under the age of five, as a matter of fact. All of those children died as a direct result of inhumane sanctions enforced by the USA and her allies to punish Saddam. What the sanctions really did do was not punish Saddam - he continued living his lifestyle; but the ordinary people suffered because of an acute lack of medical supplies. Feel free to look up the exact interview by Leslie Stahl where the questions was posed to Madeline Albright, and she looked straight at the camera and said the deaths of 500,000 children was worth it. Not even Osama bin Laden is that callous. The world has yet to hear Christians or Americans - however you want to spin it - apologize for the deaths of 100s of thousands of Iraqis.
You said: iraq invaded kuwait not the US they asked us to help so we did.
Actually, Iraq was an American ally before and right up until the Gulf War. They explicitly notified US ambassador April Glaspie of their intentions, and her response was that the invasion was a regional matter" that the US did not want to be involved in. Ostensibly, the USA got involved when a Kuwaiti girl appeared on national TV, crying about how she saw Iraqi soldiers ripping Kuwaiti babies out of hospital incubators and throwing them on the floor; as a matter of fact that girl was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador and she was primed by PR firm Hill & Knowlton, and it was outright wartime propaganda designed to inflame the American public and secure their support for an American invasion. Just go look up the historical account of "Nurse Nayirah". In addition, the Americans gained Saudi support for the invasion by lying to them and saying that there was satellite imagery showing that Saddam had tons of tanks and trucks lined up at the border about to invade Saudi Arabia, when in fact there wasn't even a single jeep or supply truck.
You said: just like WW1 and WW11.
Actually, history says otherwise - WW2 came upon America because of her direct meddling in the Southern Pacific while she was not at a state of war with anyone, but interfering with the Japanese Navy's operations. The American public wanted no part in the war. Japan attacked Pearl Harbor in order to end American interference, and the US administration had plenty of advance warning - they knew they were forcing Japan's hand - and in fact the first shot fired at Pearl Harbor was American - an advance Japanese submarine scout was found sunken by an American torpedo shot while both of its own torpedo tubes were still full. Even the Navy Admiral responsible for Pearl Harbor later testified in front of Congress that he would have been able to protect American lives had he been warned of Japan's intentions in advance, but that information was deliberately withheld from him. America entered the war due to Japan's actions but instead of responding immediately to Japan, she turned around and entered Europe. If you don't believe me - and I don't expect you will - just go read the research of your own American historians who have said a lot more than what I just did. America has a long history of engineering wars for the profit of the industrial-military complex. The current two wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are no exception.
You try to add a disclaimer in your post by saying "oh i know you're gonna disagree with me" etc but you'll notice I provided names and facts which you can check out yourself. All you provided was erroneous opinions and your own "feelings" - and that's what American leaders count on, the apathy and ignorance of the American people. That's how they literally make a killing and get away with it.
so gassing the kurds was okay? and mr facts do you know what saddam did with the rest of the gas. i sure as hell don,t scares me that it is still out there. and if saddam would have complied there would have been no need for the sanctions right? yep and just did not let up, so why did they hang him? of course iraq told us of thier intentions, to invade kuwait. they were telling everybody. the saudis had to rely on the americans to tell them there are trucks and tanks massed at thier border ready to invade? they could not look for themselves? sorry man not buying that one, and when saddam invaded kuwait his troops were perfect angles? sorry , not buying that one either.
history says otherwise? you left out ww1, actually a german u boat torpedoed the lustania, an american flagged merchant ship. this caused the us to declair war on germany a war we were clearly trying to stay out of. a war that was allready in full swing.
the japaniese attacked pearl harbor to sink the seventh fleet right? did a good job. why because japan had no natural resources, and by taking what they wanted with military might, they could expand the empire. that was the japaniese navy's operations as you call it, they knew we would oppose them so they bombed pearl harbor. and the pliliphines wake island the solomons ect. listen man they bombed the seventh fleet so we wouldn't interfear with thier operations, not because we WERE interfearing with thier naval operations. and what was a japaniese submarine doing at an american naval base armed for war? good question huh? and as far as prior notice, that is why they call it a sneak attack!!!!! yep things were heating up at the time , but japan took great pains to keep thier attack a secrete... and even if the admiral would have recieved prior notice it would not have helped much. america greatly underestimated the power of the japaniese navy.
yeah we entered europe all right, once agian german u boats were sinking american merchant vessals claiming they were suppying the english. and mr facts, when japan bombed pearl harbor. roosevelt declaired war on japan........and germany declaired war on america, those are the facts. hell america did not even have a full staffed military when WW11 started. that was why it was real hard to RESPOND to japan not to mention that the seventh fleet was at the bottom of pearl harbor. so how were we engineering wars? i have read more reaserch and books on WW11 than i can think of and no where does it refer to what you are saying. as far as madiline albright, never heard of it, dosen't mean it is not true, you can veryfy this right? show me the money.........and one more thing we did not invade france until 1944, cause we had to build up our military to do so. check your facts agian , hitler spent years building his army, perfecting weapons in russia, and then attacked poland along with the russians. that is engineering wars..... big differance......i am not going to add a[disclaimer] this time cause you seem to be reading the wrong history books or not comprehending them. so let me get this sraight. even though japan and germany schemed and planned for years prior to WW11 to start WW11 america was engineering the start of WW11? dude you are one brick shy of a full load.......
I guess we, in the US, should be tolerant of Islam, when Islam is totally intolerant of other religions. The muslim view of this issue could not be more apparent, by their actions. The victory monument , AKA Cordoba, is a slap at those who died at Ground Zero. Iman Rauf is a total hypocrit, just check Youtube videos of his own words, if you have any doubt, many are available.
I have seen him say that our actions may have caused the 9/11 bombing, but that is nothing different from "patriotic" glenn beck has said. I could show you videos of that too. :)
The are "sufi" for the name only: a wolf in a sheep's attire. How "sufi" (moderate) he is, please check what he says at youtube and you will se his real face. His wife is a paki-american (claims to be from Kashmir (India)Â who wrote her family name as "Kahn"Â on her tax returns (why????)>He was a waiter and she was a janotor and now suddenly "Millionnaire" within 7-8 yrs (at this economic meltdown's time...How???). These sort of guys "kahn" or "sufi" when they are waitor or janitor but Khan and Wahabi when they have money....they caught red-handed......!!! They want to make "bridge"....now one can see how they have made this "bridge"....what happens when this "bridge" completes.......????Â
When is the media going to quit printing "old news" and "no news" as news. This story has no traction, it is old stuff.
It will be "old" news only when the victory monument site is removed from consideration. Any thinking "moderate" muslim, wouldn't even think of disparaging those americans who died on 9/11. imho, finding a "moderate" muslim is like looking for bird poop in a cuckoo clock. One doesn't much of that.
If it's "old news" or "no news" then why did you respond, sd??
I've been to the Middle East and seen how Muslims erect larger, obnoxiously noisy mosques near churches in order to make it clear that Islam is dominant. In Istanbul the "Blue Mosque" attempts to dominate the 1500 year old Aya Sophia (they failed); in Bethelem a bigger mosque is built uphill from the church which was built on the site where Jesus was allegedly born; the same pattern is common throughout the area. And Muslims have no trouble desecrating other faith's religious sites (remember the Buddhist statues that were blown up by Taliban artillery in Afghanistan or the repeated desecrations of the Church of the Holy Sepulcre (on the site where Christ was crucified). Religious freedom should be extended to those religions that would extend it to others; Islam does not come even close to doing that. It has not made progress in at least 1100 years and it has been - by it's own admission - at war with the rest of the world since the 7th century. What we are now witnessing is it's own death spiral; since they can't admit they have been wrong all this time they are striking out irrationally at everyone (even other Muslims)... and this will eventually lead to catastrophe unless they miraculously change (they need a Martin Luther). And yes, I know nice Muslims and while I wish them well I'm afraid they've been so brainwashed that their futures are not going to be so great. The real meaning of 9/11 is that there are people planning a "Super 9/11". When that happens all tolerance will evaporate.
Retired
Tolerance will not evaporate. I believe that most of the people speaking out against the Park 51 Community Center/Mosque were never tolerant .... but they now feel justified in displaying their bigotry. Those of us who understand that it is not the entire Muslim religion that committed terrorist acts on 9/11 will likely believe that if a "Super 9/11" occurs, it will also be the acts of renegades ..... just as the acts of renegade Christians who kill abortion doctors or picket military funerals with their anti-gay rhetoric do not represent their entire religion.
"......a cab driver who says that after Sept. 11 he stopped volunteering information about his religious affiliation. "In their mind, Islam is always going back to Iraq, Afghanistan, 9/11 — that's it.""
The cabbie is correct; the cult of Islam is much more than the 9-11. Islam has been a terrorist cult long before 9-11, and they have been efficiently conducting their worldwide campaign of genocide, hate, cowardice, and terror since the 7th century.
Once we all get over this issue which is only present because the "media" how are we all going to govern every business that takes up space within the perceived boundries of ground zero. Special rules for a special place ?
To be truly American is to protect your own values, but shut down everyone else's. No, wait... That's how to be selfish. Now I'm confused.
Muslims died in the towers, so did christians, jews, catholics, agnostics, anarchists, etc. Not one of you morons against the mosque would be against a facility dedicated to ANY other religion, in that same location. You should be ashamed to call yourself american, even if the muslim religion were considered a cult/gang.
I just heard about a priest that raped a little boy... But then, nobody tried stopping that catholic day care from opening up next to the elementary school. GENIUS!
by your reasoning, Rick, many muslims died in those plazas in the middle east when muslim explodedm IED's among innocent women and children. How is it relevant that a few muslims died on 9/11?
Rick, radical Muslims don't care if they take out some of their own. Those Muslims who died on 9/11 would be regarded as martyrs or simply collateral damage.
dnimerick
I would only consider them TERRORIST and nothing else. They want us to assume they are tied into the Muslim religion or faith but they are nothing more than TERROISTS and have no regard for who they kill.
um yeah rick, i cant remember when christians flew planes into buildings. so the mosque should be allowed because some muslims died? ever think of the victims of 9/11 and how this spits on their graves? or you are such an apologist that you cant think like that
urnuts, they were indeed terrorists. They were also Muslims, every one of them, and you know it.
urnuts, a muslim is defined by following the Five Pillars of Islam. if we can’t agree upon the Five Pillars that define a muslim as the universal standard without exception, then at what point do we stop considering people muslims? apparently muslims don’t even know, because Shi’ites and Sunnis consider each other apostates, and both of them hate Ahmadis. the truth is, the terrorists are vocal about their religious convictions, and have never once professed atheism or no religious affiliation, so it’s genuinely dishonest to disown them out of convenience.
As a veteran of the first Gulf War I took an oath to defend the country and it's Constitution. The Constitution gives freedom or religion to all Americans. It is not a politicians job to discuss or have an opinion in this arena. I am clearly disappointed in the American people who are taking the hate speech to this issue
Should we ban Catholic Churches from being built near elementary schools? Should Mormons be banned from building in black communities? The examples can go on and on but I know one thing that history can teach all of us. If you ban the Islamic Cultural Center and Mosque what is next? Will your child be banned from eating in the school cafeteria because he/she is overweight? (Trans fats are banned in NYC restaurants). It is a slippery slope people be careful what road you choose to take.
good points although I hope you're not a wolverine fan.
No one wants the Mosque banned, we just want it moved to a less controversial site. It isn't a matter of banning it, other than using whatever legal and PR remedies are available to stop it being built at this site, but it is entirely appropriate to voice opposition to it and it is entirely appropriate to use legal challenges if they are valid, which will be determined in a court (or several courts) of law . If it is moved,than any and all challenges should cease, and if they aren't,then I will speak out against them !!
Fred G. is respecting their right to build where they want to...Not!
I respect their right to build it, but that same First Amendment gives me the right to voice my opposition, something I will do until such point as the location is voluntarily changed or a successful legal challenge is mounted. If it is built I hope that plenty of attention is brought to the reaction to its' opening in the Muslim world, since that will show what the true nature of this Mosque is !!!
Alright you got me there, but i can say you are suffering from a case of islamophobia. What is the true nature of this mosque then? A victory shrine to celebrate their victory over the infidels? Since when did Americans become infidels and the major enemy of islam? Does one attack by a bunch of radicals start a war against a religion?
There isn't much evidence supporting the building of victory mosques. People cite the Great Cordoba Mosque as a victory mosque. But the emran bought a church and converted it into a mosque. A better argument would be that they convert churches into victory mosques. But that still could be defeated seeing how converting a church to a mosque isn't that glorifiying in my opinoon and the Cordoba Mosque(this one is in spain) was built in the honor of someone's wife. Not really a victory shrine. Also when the muslims got kicked out, people used the mosque as a palace. Maybe it was a victory palace.
In my personal opinion, the conversion from a church to a mosque or vice versa(yes that did happen) was more for pragmatic reasons. If you were muslim you had no use for a church and if you were christian what were you going to do with a mosque. Might as well convert it.
There is one mosque that is called the "mosque of victories"(Baitul Futuh). Could this be the victory mosque you could use in your argument. It is considered one of the biggest mosques there is. It is actually recently built(2003) except it was built in England. And there aren't any victories they could really claim there, maybe the people naming it sucked when it came to creativity. Guess it sounded cool to them.
I didn't say anything about a "victory" Mosque, I simply said if the location isn't changed I'd like to see coverage of the Muslim world's reaction when it is opened. I'd place a wager there might be a body count because of the idiots firing their AK's to celebrate!! No matter what the intentions of the backers of this Mosque, the FACT is it will be seen as a celebration of 9/11 and the destruction of the Twin Towers by the MOTHERF**KERS who are at war with us!! They are morons who see death as a "victory" and I hope that many such victories are in their futures !!
I've been paying attention to RADICAL ISLAM for a quarter of a century. Being conscious to RADICAL ISLAM isn't ISLAMOPHOBIA, it's called survival !! One of the greatest threats that has ever faced our nation isn't RADICAL ISLAM it's POLITICAL CORRECTNESS !! The failure to be able to denounce pure evil in the name of inclusion isn't "enlightened" it's suicide !!
Islam in most forms marginalizes women. The main Mosque will be male only. LIBERALS WOULD BE SCREAMING FROM THE ROOFTOPS if a Christian Church had similar restrictions, yet they're okay with Islam doing it because they claim religious freedom, a religious freedom they would be screaming against if Christians had similar restrictions in worship !!!
Do you want to hear about the responses to 9/11?
Taliban condemmed it(extremely shocking), Libya condemmed it, Egypt condemned it. Syria condemned it and Iran condemned it. All islamic governments.
There was a joint message by every american islamic group saying they condemed it and wanted the perpertrators arrested.
Why would Osama bin Laden want any mosque built in america, I thought he hated us. He, who strongly believes in islam would probably not want any mosque period built in america. A mosque who is built by a man who advocates for peace probably doesn't make bin Laden happy.
As for the celebrations, I have heard about it and seen it. The clip was only of 200 people which does not support any idea of the whole islamic nation celebrating it. That is just crap. There are also people think the whole clip was a scam and some people were celebrating for reasons not relating to the attack(like a poor women getting cake). Either way Palestine condemned it(this clip took place in palestine).
And where the heck did you get the idea women can't go into the mosques. Islamic women go to mosques all the time, even in countries where they get stoned for adultery. Where else would they pray?
For the women being segregated in Mosque try the following links.
They pray in separate women room in Mosque or at home.
mnchdrk25
Just to reiterate what Billy Liu said - Muslim women can pray in the mosque just like men - of course they have their own area for privacy reasons. And most of the times it is not in a separate room, they're all in the same hall.
Well they still pray in msoques. If you are upset that women cannot pray in the exact same room maybe you should protest there aren't any male nuns or female monks.
But I do understand there are muslim acitivits who support this cause and there is desegregation coming(like in the Grand Mosque). The reasons were not women were lesser beings(though the Taliban probably had that mindset) but that there reason was that they didn't want any distractions. They believed that the intermixing genders would lead to immoral things and as a result you have this.
I bet this mosque here is different. I mean after all it is probably the only mosque built near strip bars and barbeques and betting clubs.
Don't worry I equally have issues with churches as well. These Islam stance on separate pray space for the congregation (not clergy) if foreign to me though.
Just a friendly note to muslims.
News article:
US Cartoon of Mexican Flag Draws Ire
A response:
"It is a shame that a patriotic symbol like our flag, which is so beautiful to me, can be mocked by a stupid cartoonist," one angry reader complained to the Mexican newspaper El Universal. "I think there are many other ways to graphically protest what's happening in our country."
Notice there's no call for killing or beheadings.
muslims that convert to other religions are to be killed by other muslims, fun fact.
asmith...good point. If a cartoonist or author of a book was to insult Islam they would be hunted down and beheaded
The article stated what is located around ground zero, were they there before 9-11? Let them be, but if they have been built since 9-11 shame on the leaders of the community for allowing them.
The culture center the Muslim group wants to build should be seen for what it is. A slap in the face of America, we(Muslim) can and will do everything to show that we are better then you(USA) including trying to appear innocent of any wrong doing in the ground zero predicament. If we (the people of America) allow this culture center to be built we will be sleeping with the enemy.
We have to be alert and watchful or our leaders will fall for the lies of Islam, and more of our rights will disappear.
Our Rights have been disappearing consistently in the name of Security for years now. But Islam is what made us do it -Wrong The Conservatives have had an intense loathing of personal freedoms for some time, even whining about civil rights law, Trade unions and now witch-hunting for radical Muslims, much like they did about Communists in the past.
conservatives hate personal freedoms? what ? hey genuis boy you don't have to go looking for radical muslems , they are pretty good at finding us. that is the so called crazy ones.
liberals want the goverment to cotrol everything, that is zeroing in on your personal freedom, the conservitives want less goverment and more personal freedom. this means you might actually have to work for your money, instead of sitting around on your a$$ waiting for your goverment assistance check and blaming everybody else EXCEPT the man in the mirror for your lack of self reliance..........true about our rights dissapearing for personal freedom, but once agian blame political correctness and the liberals for telling you the goverment will make it all better.........not gonna happen.........common sense......read the book. look it up. this will give you something to do with your spare time and you might gain a little insite........that is to where the founders of this country were coming from......
So what was the Partiot act other than a open door to one of the most invasive govenment since J Edgar Hoover?
Perhaps you were taking a nap for the last decade...
the patriot act was set up to help the goverment track suspected terrorists and thier activities, that is to catch them in the planning stages and stop them before they act, or would you prefer the terrorists to blow something up and then stop them? and if you were not engageing in terrorist activity then you don,t have a problem........and oh yeah they have caught a bunch of e'm this way. you don't hear much about it, cause only fox will carry it and the other guys won't bother cause there is very little sensationalism in for them. it is intresting when people die........not so when they don't.........this would explain why terrorist like killing people and making big explosions......it get's a lot of attention, and really good media coverage. the bigger the bang the better..............makes you aware of thier [plight]....call it what you want but it is just plain murder, no matter what religion they use as an excuse..
No, it was set up to start eroding those pesky civil rights that get in the way of an oppressive government.
so, in what way, have your civil rights suffered?
C'mon Kilroy, I shouldn't step in until it's my rights being opposed? Unless you are saying nobody is looking to interfere with anyones rights and it's just a sensitivity thing. To which I would point out a recent polling by Economist/YouGov that showed the majority of Republicans felt the government had the right to stop it's construction. Therefore, denying freedom of religion on a private residence was constitutional according to a majority of Republicans.
http://media.economist.com/images/pdf/TabReport08192010.pdf
no i was reffering to the patriot act itself, not the mosque,
Lets see - a state which can and does listen to your conversations, compiles your health info and can legally take you off the street to be tortured in Poland without ever having to go to the trouble of coming up with a criminal charge would be one. After all the Nazis didn't go after the big groups first did they?
poland? once hitler killed off most of the competition, he then was a shoe in for chanceler of germany, then organized the gestapo, and the SS so it would be eaiser to exterminate the jews......and nobody could oppose him. or to the gas chambers you go. since america is not anything like that then no . hitler was a dictator one guy to rule everybody, did not work out too well.......your concern about civil rights is not unfounded.......i don't want the goverment poking around in my business either......but i also want the goverment to do it's job and catch the SOBS before they kill. there is no easy answer. i also want them to secure the boarder which they are not doing......as a matter of fact the goverment pretty much does not do anything right....and the nazis were going after anyone who opposed them.........big big big point i am going to add here, hitler told the german people before ww11 that you do not need your firearms, turn them all in, our military will protect you, so like good little citizens they complied......bad move huh? now they were screwed. the second amendment allows you keep and bear arms, if they ever succeed in taking this right away, you won't have to compare this country to hitlers germany. it will be worse.....
SAMANTHA GROSS,
Excellent article! I enjoyed reading this very much. Yes, the WTC is a sacred sight and belongs to all Americans. It is unfortunate that Imam Rauf cannot, or will not recognize this. I hope that we all can cling to the memory of what was taken from us and protect it from secular intrusion. It is important to understand that freedom of religion is being protected by the equal exclusion of all religious sects, or the inclusion of all equally. A cultural center for only Muslims on this site is not in step with our beliefs.
Park51 is open to all people. It's not just for Muslims. When it's built, you'll be free to swim in the pool, go to lectures and performances, etc.
And you may be free to have your throat slit, also. No thanks.
Nick, I'm sure with the proper attire and attitude you'd be welcome to worship at any of the numerous Muslim victory mosques, many of them built on the site of demolished churches. Under the proper circumstances I'm pretty sure there'd be no problem at all.
SD- the harder part, for me, is to think that a call to prayer will ring out.There is a mosque 4 blocks away.It is like physically invading the towers are, but doing it as well, 4 times a day in call to prayer
How many Muslims really live in the financial area- worked there for years, and no way can I understand the need to build.Is this really for the Muslims who work there?
It's 5 times a day, Joan.
Yeah, there are no Muslims in New York, and they never have kids or families.
But holding someone down helps you sleep better at night right?
if that is directed at me, there are muslims in nyc- are you from surrounding area?Simply questioned the need for 2 mosques in 4 blocks.Have previously posted as St Pauls was still being constructed, question why Imam Rauf has never opened his"eventual doors" to them
Fred, thank you for your correction, like your help
i never hold anyone down- do you?what kind of volunteer work do you do?and i sleep well at night, thanks
Nick, If park 51 is open to all people then why would it need a Mosque on top. My point was and is, this is not about religion, nor should it be. Those that died are from all different sects and walks of life, their memory is not about religion and no religious sect should be allowed to make it about religion, Especialy the Muslim religion.
That doesn't make any sense sdhagerman. Just because there is a place for Muslims to pray, doesn't mean that non-Muslims aren't allowed in there. There is a place for Muslims to pray in the Pentagon, yet there are plenty of non-Muslims there. The mosque at the top is for the Muslims who will be coming. That doesn't mean that it's exclusively for Muslims. Your post makes no sense.
Yes, they will be conducting Muslim prayer services because they have a need for it in the area. The other mosque in the closest vicinity is overflowing so people are praying outside on the streets if possible. There will be Muslims who will work in the new World Trade Center. If they have no place to pray at a local mosque, then they'll end up praying in the new WTC.
Joan - You asked why they needed a mosque and, albeit sarcastically, I answered.
My cousin lived in NY for about three years in Queens and yes, lots of Muslims and really just about every subsect of humanity you can think of. Your need to impose your will on others as to where they can be allowed to practice their faith is holding someone down and as for volunteer work I help elderly people and the infirm take care of their houses free of charge (Though I am not above enjoying a good home cooked meal or a cup of coffee in gratitude) I also build bird and bat houses and plant trees and wildflowers - Everybody does what they can to improve their little corner of the world, or at least they should try. I sleep VERY well at night thank you very much. I'm proud of my free society and am bothered by anyone who feels the need to take it from any of our citizens.
for those of you non muslims who support the mosque by ground zero, you should visit saudi arabia, or iran, or libya, or pakistan, even afghanistan to see what religion you are supporting. they are exploiting our freedoms to further their agenda. the imam is calling it a cultural center here, but on his over seas trip to get more funding, he is calling it a mosque. remember, it was called the "Cordoba House" first, which, cordoba was a spanish christian city which was captured by muslims from present day morroco. the name represents a muslim victory over christianity, just like this mosque is going to be. if its built, burn it to the ground.
While I oppose the location of this Mosque, if it ends up being built, I don't support its' destruction, I support watching the Muslim world's reaction to it and seeing if that shines a light on its' true purpose !!
Good call to fight terrorism with more terrorism there smirkingjack. Sounds like you support terrorism yourself.
smirk
It isn't about which religion you support .... every religion is difficult to support because to do so requires one to believe things that are unknowable or impossible. However, I do support the Constitutional rights of religions and the property rights of individuals and groups.
"Now no one can talk about Islam ... because Islam became like equal to violence," says Noureddine Elberhoumi
Wow what an intelligent statement...exactly right. Unforutnately we were nieve in hoping that Islam would evolve into a religion of tolerance. Clearly and without ambiguity the Quaran instructs otherwise.
All that follow it deserve a common destiny...and you will have it. Sadly not before more of our nieve disposition and unwillingness to act is removed. But it will happen.
and i like how the article makes the nyc muslims out to be victims, it must be so tough to be them. i'm pretty sure the 9/11 victims would like to be alive and not victims to islam's religious war against the west. so where are the moderate muslims speaking out against this because its just spitting in the face of everyone who was there on 9/11? oh wait, thats right, they are supporting the victory mosque. its a religion of invade and conquer and convert or die.
Actually, the current Miss USA, herself a Muslim, has spoken out about how she feels the location is insensitive, wrong and should be moved. Kind of hard to figure out how you missed that, being as Miss USA (and her taking this stand) was all over the news.
And a couple other things: I have Muslim friends and they were horrified over 9/11. They were also terrified over what might've happened to them after the tragedy. One friend wouldn't even go out in public unless I held his hand. Secondly, have any of you using quotes from the Koran to justify your hate speach EVER read the Old Testament? Now THERE'S a book that encourages subjugation, domination and murder of other religions. Finally, there ARE Muslim countries that respect the rule of law. One of you brought up Turkey in an ignorant attempt to describe a country ruled by sharia and victimized by genocide. Seriously?!? The country of Turkey is a SECULAR country whose Muslim founder enshrined that secularity into it's constitution. Pakistan is a similar example. Syria is another. All three of those countries have problems with extremists and their leaders have been dilligent in not allowing their society to radicalize. This is no different than how we monitor ourselves in the United States, also a secular country where we struggle more than ever to keep right wing Christians from imposing their radical views on the rest of us.
The only reason why the current Miss USA was chosen is because she is a Muslim. Just another way and another attempt we as Americans being a Humble and generous people kiss the Muslim A*S.
@ mark - 1901602
"Another point for you mark...Yea' boy, and she knows it too!!!"
Billy
I can still vividly remember watching the Muslims celebrating in the streets of the Middle East after 9/11. Joyfully dancing and shooting off fireworks, celebrating the fall of the Trade Center and the attack on the Pentagon. Oh, yeah! They are the "peaceful" Islamists!
The WTC is sacred to Americans. If they act like Americans they'll be treated as Americans, and Americans don't want an Islamic center anywhere near the WTC. If they were Americans they'd put America first and religion second, instead of wanting to combine the two.
You watched "the Muslims" all celebrating in one place? How did the Muslims who live here get to the Middle East to take part in the party? Were the families of those who died in the towers celebrating with just a little less excitement? Did the Muslim firefighters and police who were working to rescue people in the towers get a pass on having to the go the celebration?
Here is a shot in the dark. Maybe, just maybe, you saw SOME Muslims cheering. And maybe, just maybe, the ratio of Muslims who cheered on 9/11 to Muslims who were appalled is about equal to the ratio of Christians who cheer when a doctor is murdered to the Christians who don't believe it is right to murder to advance your cause.
Too logical of a statement. Apparently Muslims have a telepathic hive mind that is working to destroy western society -oh, wait, they fight with each other too. So perhaps we are just talking about a few groups of Muslim Hive Minds instead.
@ curt Kamichoff
"You also got that right above buddy, thank you!"
Billy Carson