Israel Palestine 101: An American's perspective

must listen to interview:

http://iamthewitness.com/audio/Jenifer.Dixon/TFC.2006.04.07.Fri.2of2.Dixon.mp3

Pre-1967 borders are the joke. They are indefensable and don't allow Israel access to the old city.

Frankly I am growing very tired of seeing this same headline year after year.

actions speak louder than words/ talk..this appears to be a Universal Calamity these days, re; Talking..maybe if we can gather all these; Talkers/ political representatives and put them to work..showing people creative ways to Live with each other, with out Violence and Greed, then maybe they can get some where..oh that's too easy, they Love too make easy hard..narcissism has made them all jackals globally........

Resuming peace talks does not = breakthrough. They'll talk for a few months, some idiot will launch a rocket at Israel, Israel will blow up a militant compound, peace talks will be abandoned, rinse and repeat.

Peace is always a worthwhile thing. Though the previous attempts to bring peace between Israel-Palestine has grown tiresome. It's still a great thing should it be achieved.

I just wonder who the arab world will hate once there's peace between these two. You know that just because the Palestinians may come to a peace accord with them, doesn't mean all of the other arab countries will. For more than 50+ years they've been hanging their Israel-hate hat upon their battle with their arab cousins. What will be the new excuse? That they're really westerners in disguise and are in league with the USA? The reality is that they're as racist and hateful as anyone else, and their religion of peace is a farce.

These people are clinically insane. How? Welll, if the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and over again, but expecting a different result, then that's insane. Funny how these 'breakthroughs' always occur just prior to midterm elections and the 'peace deals' occur right before presidential elections.

Of course, using that definition of insanity would also make all voters clinically insane. I mean they keep on voting every time, while expecting a different result, right?

Agreeing with many, "Here we go Again". There will never be peace between the Palestinians and Israel.

Palestine cannot control Hamas, their Terrorist Group, and basically, they love to "fight".

It's just another article and another Political Ploy. Americans are way too smart to believe there will be an ending to the fighting that has gone on since Biblical times.

We should forget making Peace. It gives Hillary something to "do" while she is Secretary of State.

My entire adult life has heard the phrase "Middle East Peace Talks." I always flash back to the picture of Jimma Carter shaking the hands of Sadat and Begin: http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h243/dharmafarmer/sadat_carter_begin.jpg

It's time to wash our hands of this mess, once and for all!

Yes....tremendous breakthrough(not)....Didnt Carter do this and win some sort of prize? How could there possibly be a problem still??? Lets keep the drama alive and talk about it daily...for forty more years. Does anyone think these people would seriously ever accept peace?? I hate to admit that I dont think these people will ever want peace. The whole mantra is to hate and kill your neighbor. Is this just another continuing ploy for them to get worldwide publicity and to make the world think there is a possibility of peace? Maybe Hillary is going for that peace prize...and why not. What else is she accomplishing? What was the total of her diplomatic and worldwide knowledge, experience and participation??? Yea, yea she was the loud opinionated wife of an ex president....Oops, forgot about ducking sniper fire in Yugoslavia....

I would hope that instead of working on peace between Palestine and Israel, the Government would get busy on getting unemployment in the US under control, and seeing our Economy on the upswing, with Federal Immigration Laws that have been tossed to the wind..

This is definitely a waste of time. When is our Government going to address and fix the real issues here.

Israel can well-defend itself. They are on the "Ship" alone. They have survived.

It is more important to get Iran UNDER control. What is the Secretary of State doing about this immediate issue?

Unemployment and economy??? Are you serious?? Lets divert attention to peace talks in the middle east...That will make people stop asking about the failure of the economy.

J.A-522495

Agreed! I don't have a lot of hope for this either, but I do retain some glimmer of optimism that they might actually come to a final agreement (a la Yassir Arafat).

Let's just hope that unlike last time, the issue can be completely settled and we don't have one side back out at the last minute thinking they could push for a better deal!

The real wild card in these new talks is likely going to be Hamas, whose goal is most certainly NOT peace with Israel.

I'm fairly jaded myself and equally tempted to remain, like most of you, cynical that peace can ever be achieved between Israel and Palestine....

And yet.... I find myself thinking that a lot of things have been happening lately that I thought would not be happening anytime soon... For example...

1. We have a black President not that many decades after MLK and the civil rights movement.
2. All (Combat) Troops have been pulled out of Iraq...
3. Billionaires are planning on donating half their fortunes to charities...
4. The owners of Fox OPENLY donated Millions to The Republican party... (fair and balanced?)
5. All four members of Pink Floyd reunited to play live for charity a few years ago... (almost as unlikey as mideast peace)

Etc... etc... Weird things keep happening lately...

What if... (I know, I know, but...)... what if... they finally DO make peace?
AND... it happens during, and, as a result of the Obama administration? After decades of failed attempts by every prior president? Would the right wing give him credit? Or find a way to condemn him for it? Like I said, I'm jaded, so I'm betting on condemn...

But, odds still say, peace is not likely... But I will say this... If it DOES actually happen.... then Obama can hold up that Nobel Peace Prize and feel like he actually deserved to get it, (retroactively)... and if it doesn't happen, then we'll just continue sending Israel Billions of our tax dollars every year.

Mideast peace talks.... I never fully understood the infatuation with these two countries....I'm sure the talks will be successful (riiiiight)

And boy oh boy, Hillary looks god awful. She's aging faster than a meth head.

Better to talk if you can. A true Peace would be huge for the USA, Europe, Asia and the Middle East.

War, to fight is a better idea? War in that region does affect you. I am sure you must know that.

C'mon, it's not like you have anything to lose if they are successful. Open up your mind and think beyond the small scope of your influence.

Writing negative things on this site about people, religions, nations, etc. does any good.

How about giving us a positive, constructive idea???

The fact is that Israel does not want to share that land with anyone so there will never be peace.

This conflict between Israel and its neighbors will bring about WW-III and a Nuclear Holocaust upon ALL mankind.

Until Israel is forced (via tough love and truth) to share that land, stop the settlements and the occupation and suffering of its neighbors don't count on any peace. Israel has made it clear that it will use any means necessary to preserve its own existence and the rest of the world be damned.

I'm more worried about Israels Nukes and the fact that Israel may lack the discipline that it will take not to use them. This is the elephant in the room.

I'm only saying what people are afraid to say for fear of being called anti-Semitic. There is no Anti-semitism in the truth.

Wow, that cover picture to go along with this BS talks, what part of occupation or Nazi ghetto do the pro-Israelis not understand? Israel is synonymous with USA parasite, North Korea, rogue state. Ridicule my message but you cannot hide the truth

Fedup! You are an idiot.

The truth? You did not say one thing that was the truth.

Israel has had nukes for over twenty years. When was the first time you ever read about Israel threatening the complete destruction of any country?? Iran on the other hand is ok with you however?? Not worried about them i see. Iran has openly stated their desires. Your logic or lack there of is very confusing.

Also you idiot, no one is afraid of being anti-Semitic any more than you are. Can't your read? While clearly a minority of people, there are others just as ignorant as you. You are not alone.

That said, you are anti-semetic and I am sure you are proud of it for many other untrue reasons your little brain can invent.

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090119.htm

Clinton Oslo II? Intifada III?

Maybe this is why President Obama got the Nobel Peace Prize? You know, on the possibility of there being peace?

Osama Bin Laden is a coward, that is one fact.

As far as these other thoughtful comments about US foreign policy, Israel, Jews, etc. well to discuss them really would be the true waste of time.

V:

When it comes to Religious fighting between groups or tribes, there is no Hope.

The others you mentioned are miracles.

There can never be peace amongst two peoples who are entirely consumed with the others' destruction.

the best response to failure is to try try and try again

Most important thing are the more difficult to achieve

Hawaii2:

Except that their fighting isnt based upon religion. They're fighting over land lost by Palestine 50+ years ago. There are muslims in Israel just as unwilling to part with their bought land as the jewish Israelis are.

Alan shore think back and you will find that Israel and Egypt are at peace and not war as is Syria and a few other Muslim states

Of course "What".

Whenever someone says a word of truth about Israel they are automatically Anti-Semitic. The very reason why many are afraid to open their mouths and speak the truth that Israel needs to hear. Look up the meaning of the word and properly apply it before you throw it around at people you dont know. You know what they as about assuming anything...

Israel is preparing to Nuke/bomb whatever they want to do to Iran. Do you really want to be a part of Nuking a country who has not attacked anyone? Do want to Nuke Iranian people just because Israel doesn't want to share? Just because they think Iran has Nukes?

If Isreal is so afraid of Iran or any of its neighbors getting Nukes--then how do you think Israels neighbors feel about Israel having Nukes? Yes--exactly the same fear and desire to secure thier own self preservation as Israel.

Be fair--treat both sides with the same caution. Don't judge one side and turn a blind eye to the other. There will be no peace if this kind of blind loyalty to Israel continues.

Well I want no part of it. Israel is the worlds spoiled child who lacks discipline and tough love. Self preservation is all Israel cares about and I'm concerned for not just the preservation of Israel but for my country too!

There is no Anti-Semitism in the turth "What." The truth does hurt but you will get over it in time.

Cygnus:

Base line:

It is a Religious War. It is about sharing strips of land, Gaza and others, but their is definite hatred between these 2 countries and their religious beliefs. No Peace.

It was agreed 50 years ago, Israel did own the land.

Thanks for the comments.

Fedup,

"Israel is preparing to Nuke/bomb whatever they want to do to Iran. Do you really want to be a part of Nuking a country who has not attacked anyone? Do want to Nuke Iranian people just because Israel doesn't want to share? Just because they think Iran has Nukes?"

Israel will not nuke Iran, what are you smoking? What they will probably do is send in the air force with bunker busters and take out all of Iran's nuke development sites after they've taken out Iran's air defenses.

"If Isreal is so afraid of Iran or any of its neighbors getting Nukes--then how do you think Israels neighbors feel about Israel having Nukes? Yes--exactly the same fear and desire to secure thier own self preservation as Israel."

Yes and I would agree with Israel being afraid. A nuke in the hands of a madman like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is not something I like to think about. If I were Israeli's neighbors I would appreciate them having nukes to keep peace in the ME. I think you're under the impression that the Arab states are friends with Iran.

You have a very simplistic view of the situation between Israel, the Arab states, and Iran.

Svenolafson,

And just bombing Iran and it people because Israel "thinks" Iran "might" have a Nuke is ok with you?

And you answered the question with your response. Yes Israel is afraid--well then so are Israels neighbors because Israel is already armed/ Nuked-up and ready!

Fedup,

I see your reading comprehension needs a little work. The Isrealis will bomb the NUKE DEVELOPMENT SITES, or maybe you just need glasses.

When do you go back to school, after Labor day?

Hawaii2

V:

When it comes to Religious fighting between groups or tribes, there is no Hope.

The others you mentioned are miracles.

I myself have a distaste, and innate lack of "faith" in all organized religions... but history contradicts your statement... many religious groups have been at eachothers throats only to be trading and doing business with eachother later on... money and commerce are the great pacifiers...

Also, do not overlook the irony of your using the word "miracles" to describe certain events... I think certain religious groups may own the patent on that word... although I will say, that of the five examples I gave, I think the Pink Floyd reunion may indeed have fallen under that category.

Svenolafson,

And you think that Iran is just going to sit back and it take right?

The peace effort will allow us to prime our focus else where. Iran, Taliban, N Korea and many othe terrorist groups are fully aware of that. This is a very good news. Tax $ used here will go a long way in saving ($, time, effeciency, lives) else where.

It is good that the two groups are nearly done with their positioning prior to enter negotiation.

V:

I still can't see it your way--it is a deep, deep hatred from Biblical times. Now, Israel is willing to talk about giving Palestine their own State. From past history, the Palestinian Government (Arafat, good example PLO), and not the civilians always goof it up, by their Terrorist groups taking charge, and car suicide bombings going into Israel.

It is the Terrorists (Hamas)who has to be wiped off the face of the earth, before there can be any Peace. The leader of Palestine Abhoud Abbas is somewhat of a sympathizer with Hamas. Hamas once ran their Government in a fraud election.

Time will tell, but I would take my bets, especially with Arabs and Jews that this will not work out.

I don't know of any religious groups who have hated each other for this long, then turned around and done business with them. That is more Politics than religious views. If you know of any organized religion where this has happened, please write to me here.

Hawaii2

V:

I still can't see it your way--it is a deep, deep hatred from Biblical times.

Actually that's not true... before the recreation of Israel in the 1940's, Arabs, Jews and Christians lived together in relative peace... of course there were a lot more Arabs, and a lot less Jews at the time, but they were peaceful.... for the most part anyway... up until zionism started up.

It is the Terrorists (Hamas)who has to be wiped off the face of the earth, before there can be any Peace. The leader of Palestine Abhoud Abbas is somewhat of a sympathizer with Hamas. Hamas once ran their Government in a fraud election.

Not quite, they are more like rivals... Abbas once controlled the west bank, AND the Gaza strip.. but Hamas forcibly took control of Gaza from abbas... and then hamas staged their rigged elections to "justify" it... but yes, Hamas must go, no doubt...

Time will tell, but I would take my bets, especially with Arabs and Jews that this will not work out.

And you'd get good odds.

I don't know of any religious groups who have hated each other for this long, then turned around and done business with them. That is more Politics than religious views. If you know of any organized religion where this has happened, please write to me here.

As I said... it really hasn't been as long as you're thinking.... Not with the Arabs anyway... the Jews have had problems with many different people over the millenia... Egypt, Rome, Germany, etc...

One example of two religous groups that fought were the Christians, and Muslims... the crusades were brutal wars... but then, at least up until 9/11, we were at peace, doing business (OIL)...

V:

The biggest problem is to get the Terrorists out of the Way.

Yes, the Muslims and Christians did get along (thank you for pointing this out) until 9/11. Oil. Then Americans became "tainted" against them.

Since the War on America started, most religious groups are weary of the Terrorists who are associated with being Islamists/Muslims. Most Muslims are not Islamic Terrorists. Why haven't the Muslim Community in America or other countries spoken out again the Terrorism that is plaguing all countries right now. The Muslim Religion is the largest in the world. It would go a great distance if they did not remain quiet on this subject. (Off subject, sorry)

The Jews have been persecuted and chased out of all European countries since day 1. It is only until the Holocaust in the 30's, others have noticed what is happening to the Jewish people. There is still rampant anti-Semitism everywhere. Israel is the only Homeland they have ever known as a group. Being a Zionist is how they protect themselves from the persecutions of previous ages. I can see why; most people don't understand the heritage, nor do they want to learn about the evils against the Jews. They are the Scapegoats for many problems unresolved.

Israel is not involved in the "Oil" Business. They just want to be left alone, and live in peace, willingly giving the Palestinians back land in what was asked for in other Peace Talks, during other Administrations.

Thank you for your great comments. I guess maybe we agree to disagree. That is good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel

A walk down memory lane...........

Peace talks are better than no peace talks. As usual they will probably end when some knucklehead on one side or the other does something stupid.

I see the usual suspects are on the vine trying to blame one side or the other!! Of course like the "D" versus "R" battles, the truth is both sides are at fault!! Until they're both willing to come together and make a better future for their children they will be doomed to repeat all of the bull$h*t of the past !!

You are suggesting that it will stop for two days???

Typical responses, if this were a Republican administration this would be hailed as a "breakthrough", but of course why do I expect Hillary would get any credit for this.

Talking is better than not talking.

Eric, with all due respect, the two sides agreeing to talk is hardly the "breakthrough" that the administration and it's press agency (MSNBC) would want us to believe. Agreeing to talk is nothing...they've done it before. Then Hamas gets bored and starts lobbing rockets into Israel, the Palestinian authority does nothing to stop them, and Israel retaliates and gets eviscerated by world opinion...and there go the talks. Honestly, it's like hearing the same song on Top 40 radio repeatedly...it's good to hear at first, and then you get tired of hearing the same song over and over and over...

Joe, agreed.

Usually for the Palestinians to agree to talk the Israelis need to give some concessions like loosening of travel restrictions to and from Gaza. Hamas will use this to rearm and the whole cycle will start over again.

To the idiot that commented that Israel doesn't want to share the land; Israel gave the Sanai back to Egypt at the Camp David accords. They gave up Gaza in 2005. In the Oslo Accords Israel also was willing to give up 97% of the West bank but Arafat rejected it because in the agreement it said the conflict would now be over. Arafat couldn't accept that. So don't give me any of that crap about not wanting to share the land. You have no clue what you are talking about.

Ah organized religion, #1 perpetrator of death and destruction on earth for thousands of years.

I'm afraid it is a religious issue. The Jews were given their own country because of a backwards christian notion that it should be so, their bible said it would happen, so lets make it happen.

The Jews believe all of the land is theirs not because that backwards christian notion, but because Jehovah promised to their ancestors Abraham, Issac and Jacob. The Palestinians believe that Allah told their ancestors Ibrahim and Ishmael that the land is theirs.

All based in religion.

All 3 major religions, Christian, Jewish, and Islamic all believe that the end of the world hinges on what happens in that small little strip of desert. So for their god and what was promised to them, they will fight and die, and they will teach their children the same, and so on and so on.

The cycle will not end until someone is annihilated. Sad but true, as long as the smallest part of a cancer is left in the body, it will fester and regrow. If Israel wants the issue fixed, they will need to eradicate all Palestinians. If the Palestinians want peace to reign, they will need to eradicate all Israelis.

As long as religion is in control, the cycle will never stop.

Drezz

Israel believes it has a right to exist not because of religion but because it has since 1948 when it became a country by a vote of the UN. If you know anything about Israel you would know the government is mostly secular with a small religious minority who does have power. Israel has made peace with two neighbors but when they gave the land of Gaza back all they got were rockets. You might want to do some research on how the Palestinians are treated by their Muslim brothers in Lebanon where they have no rights at all

Between Palestine and Israel, neither side wants peace with each other.

Repeating my remarks, it is a Religious War, so there will be no end to the silly Fairy Tale of both sides coming together. I love the United States Government, but all Past and Present Presidents do not thoroughly understand the region or it's past history..

Never.

Hawaii

I think the problem is with the Palestinians. They have problems with the Israeli's who are no saints to them, but they were thrown out of Jordan, and Syria, Egypt never gave them a country when they could have. In Lebanon they are treated much worse than they are in Gaza. This seems like a pattern to me.

Jerry:

Your observations are correct.

The Arab World do not treat their people as equals. Remember all the rich oil Sheiks in these countries; their leaders?. They only care about themselves, living in palaces, 24kt gold furniture, the best of everything money can buy. The wealth of money earned by their oil is all for themselves, not the poor, repressed people.

Israel has tried, and tried to make peace with the UAE's.. What the problem is between Palestine and Israel, is that Palestine won't leave Israel alone. The countries mentioned in your commentary also despise Israel, even more so.

The Palestinians were always known to be people by their own, who were below the standards of the Middle East. This is the past history of Palestinians. Mostly nomads. When push comes to shove, though, in times of trouble, all of the UAE's come together and gang up on Israel. That is what they have in common---to destroy Israel..

Now it is the Terrorists who Israel fears. They will protect themselves in under great duress, if a War should start again. All Israeli's are required to join the Army by the age of 18. Women fly F-18's in time of War.

This whole subject re: each Adminstration thinking they have the magic bullet to cure all ills between Arabic countries, their Terrorists is just fantasy. Nothing will change, as I have mentioned before. There's always one powder keg in the mix.

Thank you, and no I am not a Zionist.

Beleive me I know plenty about Israel, Ive studied it my entire life. They may say thats the reason they believe they should exist, but their actions speak otherwise. their previous attempts at takeovers of land were based on a preconceived notion that their god told them it was theirs so they should have it.

Drezz:

Statement incorrect. I've studied it too, my whole life. Please reread facts.

Got a little tangental there, didn't you?

With tensions growing between Iran and Israel, this is something that can't be left alone. We spend a lot of money keeping things stable in that area of the world.

We should always strive for peace.

OMG for a moment there I thought you said trangenital...

I rather doubt that tax dollars will be used to fly over the diplomats or put them up at the Hilton. They have special places reserved at the embassy don't they? It sounds like you are more against them negotiating then you are against them using tax dollars.

Alot more of our tax dollars are spent suppling weapons to Israel. The Israelies get more money from us than any other country. You should be glad they're actually spending some on peace so maybe we can save all the billions we spend on their war.

Yeah, quitting is a good response. (rolls eyes)

Lets be realistic here. There will never be peace between the Israelis and Palestinians.

The Israelis only talk peace to placate the U.S. and continue to receive a ridiculous

amount of our tax dollars and the slap us in the face time and time again. Bibi will never give up an inch of land. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to get their head examined.

JR

This is the real truth of the matter and no one wants to hold Israel accountable for what the world already knows. Israel has no intention of sharing that land and Israel will destroy the world to keep it.

People had better wake up and realize that Israel is ready to bring about WW-III by bombing/Nuking Iran to get what it wants and to keep what it has. I wont be a part if it and I wont give my life or my children's lives for this mess!

Enough is enough!

Fedup:

You need to visit the region in order to make a different assessment of what is going on there.

If you have never experienced the experience, then how can you be an expert at analyzing who is right and who is wrong?

Precedent. That's all I'm saying.

The level of cynicism and pessimism expressed here is part and parcel of the overall problem of why there is an ongoing Israeli-Arab conflict. Trust is a fragile thing that takes great effort to build and hardly any effort at all to destroy.

Look, cynicism and pessimism among Americans is one thing: our opinions about this epic brouhaha don't matter to a hill of squat. Direct that criticism solely to the zealots and religious convictions exhibited by both the Israelis and Palestinians.

Exodite Dragon
Look, cynicism and pessimism among Americans is one thing: our opinions about this epic brouhaha don't matter to a hill of squat. Direct that criticism solely to the zealots and religious convictions exhibited by both the Israelis and Palestinians.

Agreed! +1

One side has a Manifest_Destiny complex and the other has a "Religion of Peace(tm)" conflict.

If only the nutters that think God is talking to them could step aside and actually let rational people handle things...

Hamas (funded by Iran) is a different story however, I think it is in Iran's best interest to keep Israel engaged in conflict at home rather than be anything like a unified force against Iran.

I won't be surprised if Hamas starts drumming up more rocket and suicide attacks in the coming weeks. Sort of like a football scrimmage-play

So basically, don't try anything?

What do you tell your kid when he's hits the mat? GET UP!!!

This situation is down on the mat and you would be fine to simply do nothing, because nothing has ever happened? based on precedent?

Guess what the first time something ever happens, is the first time it happens - before that, who could have believed it?

SO we keep trying, we keep arranging, we keep meeting, we keep hoping, we keep planning - WE DON'T JUST SIT THERE DOUBTING ANYTHING WILL EVER HAPPEN!!!

You people are what's wrong with America - not the other way around. Sit their all day long typing and doubting, typing and doubting - whatever it is, there's something wrong with it and by golly, I won't quit until I find it!!!

Well, you fail yourself and this country when you won't look for any good, any possiblilty, any GD hope for GD sake!!! We're in a GD pickle here you dummies!!! Don't quit!!!

Go curl up and suck your whiny negative thumbs!!!

We are better served focusing on our domestic issues long before we worry about the solution of an enduring generational conflict.

Expressing pessimism or optimism on this topic is a thing wholly separate from actually working towards finding a solution. You cannot blame anyone who's been watching the circus for the last forty years for having doubt about it; you cannot declare them a problem for throwing up their hands in disgust.

Exodite Dragon

That would be fine in a vacuum, but think about how many of our domestic issues can be correlated to foreign ones.

Quite a few!

Handling peace between Israel and (everyone else) will save the US a HUUUUGE amount of money in security. The idiots in those countries will be managed by their own country's security forces, rather than continue to traverse out and cause havok in other nations as they have done in the past.

I the US would have stepped in to try and handle the genocide in Darfur, it might have helped to prevent the guerilla forces from strengthening and traveling into Congo to attack oil wells and refineries...Or just go into Congo itself.

You have to remember that all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Sitting on your hands and pretending that everyone else will take care of their own problems is wildly myopic and shows a clear lack of knowledge of history.

You are in trouble if your neighbor's house is on fire! Last I checked, Mexico is not doing so well!

/end tangential rant

Seriously?

What was the first win for the Obama admin.?

How is this considered a "win" for the Obama administration? Both Clinton and Bush tried this over and over with no results. Its taken Obama nearly 2 years to do the same thing the other presidents did in much less time. Either way, nothing positive will result considering Israel is negotiating with Abbas and not Hamas. Any agreement will not include Hamas as they have no intention of having peace with Israel. Consequently, this will result in utter failure just as the prior attempts have. In fact, most likely Hamas will begin incitement again resulting in an Israeli response and round and round we go. Guaranteed.

If this is another win for Obama then the bar has been set below sea level.

Kevin: Like below the Dead Sea level? XD

Joe: Healthcare reform. Financial Reform. Securing the BP escrow fund. Drawdown of Iraq war.

Oh, you can read Robinson't coumns? More propoganda. Define "win". Healthcare is not a win nor is financial reforem. He got them passed if that is what you mean, but they do not and will not resonate with the public. The Iraq drawdown is a joke. There are 50k folks still there

Yea the healthcare reform modeled after the Massachusettes reform that is failing big time.

The financial reform that does nothing for "too big to fail" and didn't address the GSE's Fannie and Freddie.

BP said they would cover it before Obama put in his two cents. Excuse me make that one cent given the economy sinking the way it is.

"Healthcare is not a win nor is financial reforem"

Spoken like a true partisan zealot. Are you blind enough to think our present healthcare system is functional? Do you not recognize we are ALL ALREADY paying for those without healthcare? The only failure there was the failure of the right to participate, instead of grandstanding and playing politics (which was done by the left as well, but not to the nth degree as by the right).

And same goes for finanical reform, if you don't think it was necessary, you weren't paying attention.

acidrain: I'll give him the BP fund but as far as the rest: Failure!!!

Ron & Kevin, you both obviously have your biases, but you can't argue that these are large reforms. Whether you agree with them or not, THEY ARE WINS FOR OBAMA.

"Resonate with the public"? That's typical republican failure. Populism and propoganda. Reality is going to win out over the rethuglican propoganda of "death panels" and "socialism".

BP can say what they want, but I'd prefer a fund SET ASIDE for it, regardless of what happens to BP as a company or who comes in and changes policy. Total and complete win.

Spin what you moron let's see some results first!

Just in case somebody does not know this the Israelis own and control lots of money here in the US Helloooooooooooooooooooo

prnc...and yet the jewish vote always goes to the anti jewish liberal democrats.

Won't happen. If they go after each other, and I mean REALLY go after each other, it will get a whole lot bloodier, and a whole lot more widespread. It's no joke, and the attitude that trying to resolve this is futile, or is some sort of a joke, is juvenile and counter-productive.

If haven't anything nice to say...

Forgive the pessimism, but I don't honestly care. Sure, it'd be nice if they resolve things. It'd be great. But which side wipes the other off the map - if they choose to go that route instead of opting for a peaceable solution - should be their concern entirely and not ours.

I happen to agree on the smaller scale, I don't care for either side really, they both are antagonistic, and unable to let s#1t go.

BUT, Israel is a lone democracy surrounded by theocracies and worse. To not help them find peace and a stable footing would likely eventually cause the US significantly greater problems, so it IS in our best interest to get them all to play nicely together.

Fred, then the internal structure of Israel's democracy needs to change. Those popular elements within their government that view their state's existence as a birthright or a product of God's will need to have less influence on domestic and foreign policy.

It's been stated elsewhere by other posters that the mentality Israel often exhibits is reminiscient of jingoism and Manifest Destiny. That kind of thinking does not align well seeking peace with the Palestinians; we ought to discourage that when dealing with Israel much as we discourage armed violence and extremism when dealing with the Palestinians.

Exodite - Again, I happen to agree with you, but I also feel OUR "popular elements within ... government that view their state's existence as a birthright or a product of God" will ALSO need to have less influence on our domestic and foreign policy.

Kinda hypocritical to make another nation behave differently than we are.

Believe me, my statement was not made in ignorance of the understanding a similar change needs to be effected here.

Sure, if Biblical prophecy involves people being complete @!$%#ing idiots 24/7.

Yes, and there will be a "false peace" very soon. End time events are about to begin!

Mary, I'm praying to Odin that you die an inglorious death as a coward. 8D

Oh please. What is it with end times fascination? I've seen pictures of
people holding up "the end is near" signs from the early 1900s.

Mike: It's the realm of comfort for people who lack the balls to try to work for a better world.

Christians, particularly Evangelicals and Mormons, have already convinced themselves these are the final days. While this human engineered apocalypse might be it for most of us, some of humanity will survive it.

There's no prophecy quite like a self-fulfilling prophecy!

That's what disturbs me the most about their mindset.

If you consider how long this world has been in existence if you go from 1900 to now that is not very much time at all in the span of the human history. So, Mike, if you saw pictures from the early 1900's of people holding up "the end is near" signs and it took this long and even longer for the second coming of Jesus to happen that is pretty darn "near" in my book. When you see somebody hold a sign up like that you think it's going to happen tomorrow? Or is this the age of instant gratification we live in?

Know this: Jesus prophesied the birth of Israel as a nation. That came true in 1948. Jesus said that generation would not pass away before his second coming. Granted, that could mean quite some time as we've seen people live past 100 in recent times. OK, so considering that perhaps there will be an elderly person hanging on from that generation we are looking at anywhere between very soon to perhaps 40 years or so from now for the second coming of Christ? Dude, that's near in my book.

Perhaps the peace negotiations will break down this time. That does NOT mean the prophecy was wrong. That just means you're looking at it the wrong way. And perhaps you are being critical of Christians who believed the end of the world was coming nearly 100 years ago and scoff at them, but have you looked at the way of life back then and some of the horrible things they had to endure? Some very Biblical prophecies were coming to pass, even back then. Granted, they were simply the birth pains Jesus warned of, not the true end, but they were the signs we are getting close. And from 1900 to 1948 to 2010 to perhaps 2048 or so may seem like a long time to us but in the scale of human history, that's a breath of steam in the winter time vanishing away.

A day is as a thousand years to God and a thousand years is as a day. You can't really be critical of the prophecy just because of some human perceptions of the passing of time.

I'd be inclined to believe your conspiracy theory, Damien, if it weren't for the fact that a bunch of power-hungry mongrels voted on which texts to include and discard from Christian canonical scripture at the early ecumenical councils. Even widely-accepted modern interpretations of Christ as part of the Trinity weren't even discussed with any kind of consensus until shortly after 300 AD; unless, of course, you're suggesting that everyone who considered themselves Christian until the Catholics sat down and hammered out what was what were just pissing in the wind for three or four centuries.

Spout prophecy all you want: there's no unified vision of Christian dogma, and there never has been. Even today, the atypical Protestant Bible holds just over sixty texts, while some Orthodox faiths use a Bible that contains more than eighty.

Step off your high horse.

It's not a high horse sir. Just a point of view. I didn't post any kind of personal attacks like that about you so please refrain from doing so for me. If you have a different POV based on something you can back up I'd be interested in hearing it, but if you're rejecting it out right because you disagree with how the Bible came to be I think it may be short sighted. Are there any prophecies Jesus gave in those other texts that may contradict what he said about the rebirth of the nation of Israel and that generation wouldn't pass away before his second coming?

What interests me most about so-called people of peace and coexistence and such is they are so kubyahah with everybody else but when it comes to something from the POV of the Bible they get all defensive and angry. I would be interested in hearing an opposing POV with some substance and not devolving into attacks or angry language.

Yes, actually, Damien. It's precisely because many of the disincluded texts didn't jive with the decision to declare Christ a divine part of the Godhead that they were left out. For starters, go get yourself a copy of the Gnostic scriptures - available at any local Barnes & Noble or Borders - and check it out for yourself.

Have you ever asked yourself why the Gospels of eight of the Apostles were intentionally left out of the Bible? Have you ever wondered why the writings of the men who were supposedly closest to Jesus fell by the way-side of Christian theology for nearly two millenia?

As for the reasons regarding the apparent anti-Christian sentiment: it's not about being anti-Christian for the sake of railing against Christian value. Quite the contrary, it's about railing against (as I've stated elsewhere) the reactionary view that the end times are among us and that we're incapable of either helping ourselves or solving each other's problems without divine intervention.

If you believe in God, why look to Him and Him alone? Why not consider that all the powers of reason and ability every human posseses were instilled in us by God for a very good and practical purpose? I would hold as more sacred the notion that God helps those that help themselves over anyone who wails in the bitter dark for Armageddon.

I knew someone was going to interpret what the time-frame for "near" was for us all. The average human lives about 65 years. You think the person in 1900 is holding up their "the end is near" sign for the next generation? I doubt it.

No, the person holding up the sign in 1900 wasn't holding it up for future generations. Don't talk down to me like I am some kind of moron. Obviously NOBODY is going to think that.

Study history. Look at what was going on 100 years ago that would have generated responses like that. Were they right? Obviously not, there were certainly prophecies that had to come to pass yet. But were they seeing things in the world that mirrored prophecies in the Bible as signs of the end times? Certainly so. And, today, there are still signs but it's clear that there's still things that have to come to pass yet.

Exodite, you can tell me what to read but it's highly unlikely I am going to read all that material to try to extrapolate what quotes you may be referring to that contradict the prophecies about Israel being a nation and that generation not passing away before Christ returns. Unless you are able to pull quotes out, don't expect me to give much thought to what you are saying. I don't have time to sit and read 8 books to try to figure out what you are reading and thinking. You have to tell us EXACTLY.

Damien, you might want to flick that ugly chip off your shoulder. No one was talking down to you. The whole thing started when Mary posted that end time events were about to begin. I simply inferred that every generation seems to think they are the ones in the so-called end times. You came in and asserted that I had no understanding of the term "near". For which I gave a practical, real-world example of a person in 1900 and their sign.

As for studying history and the events of a particular time in history, you are proving my assertion. There has probably never been a time in the history of man that there wasn't something happening that led these poor people to believe they were witness to the end.

I prefer to live my life with a vision of better times ahead.

Actually Hamas has stated that Israel has no right to exist so I agree with you completely. If Abbas signs any type of peace treaty he will be killed.

That's a good point. Even if Abbas is considered the rightful head of state for the West Bank, it still only represents a portion of the Palestinian territory. If Hamas cannot be persuaded to cooperate in these talks then this round of "negotiations" will fail also.

Like it or not, and I hope there are politicians who are paying attention, a true negotiation cannot be had without the involvement of ALL parties, regardless of their affiliation or ideology.

I become frustrated when our government refuses to even "talk" (at high diplomatic levels) with certain factions because they do not consider them to be valid representatives (e.g.- NPRK, Taliban, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.) These groups may not be overtly hospitable, but they are in control of their local populations, and therefore must be included.

That is a very relevant point Indy.

Peace is impossible until all factions are sitting at the negotiating table.

If you consider how long this world has been in existence if you go from 1900 to now that is not very much time at all in the span of the human history. So, Mike, if you saw pictures from the early 1900's of people holding up "the end is near" signs and it took this long and even longer for the second coming of Jesus to happen that is pretty darn "near" in my book. When you see somebody hold a sign up like that you think it's going to happen tomorrow? Or is this the age of instant gratification we live in?

Know this: Jesus prophesied the birth of Israel as a nation. That came true in 1948. Jesus said that generation would not pass away before his second coming. Granted, that could mean quite some time as we've seen people live past 100 in recent times. OK, so considering that perhaps there will be an elderly person hanging on from that generation we are looking at anywhere between very soon to perhaps 40 years or so from now for the second coming of Christ? Dude, that's near in my book.

Perhaps the peace negotiations will break down this time. That does NOT mean the prophecy was wrong. That just means you're looking at it the wrong way. And perhaps you are being critical of Christians who believed the end of the world was coming nearly 100 years ago and scoff at them, but have you looked at the way of life back then and some of the horrible things they had to endure? Some very Biblical prophecies were coming to pass, even back then. Granted, they were simply the birth pains Jesus warned of, not the true end, but they were the signs we are getting close. And from 1900 to 1948 to 2010 to perhaps 2048 or so may seem like a long time to us but in the scale of human history, that's a breath of steam in the winter time vanishing away.

A day is as a thousand years to God and a thousand years is as a day. You can't really be critical of the prophecy just because of some human perceptions of the passing of time.

I'll give Indy some props for advocating a very unpopular notion: the idea that you should try to include even those militant groups in the peace negotiations that might otherwise have preferred the sword to the pen.

But what every party must be made to realize is that any action that's the cause of another group's grievance must be halted for the duration of the talks.

Not true, not true. Hamas has been moving closer to the PA and have come to realize that Isreal will not go away! They are now putting together a functioning government in Gaza and are open to a two-state solution as long as it involves pre-1967 borders, the end of Jewish settlements on Arab land, and the right at least for some of the 750,000 Palestian refugees to return to their land. The reason these peace talks won't work is simply due to the fact that neither us nor Isreal is willing to talk to Hamas (the elected government in Gaza) who have the support of a vast majority of the people in Gaza, as well as the West Bank.

I advocate destroying the Holy Land. If it doesn't exist, there's no need to fight over it.

Dragon, please. Keep it mature.

As for Boomer, this issue is very exquisitely our problem due to the fact that we have actively interfered with the entire issue since the end of WW2. It is precisely the US gov's preference towards Israel that has continually flamed the Middle East arab populations for decades. One may even say that these deep-rooted emotions were the catalyst for the attacks on 9/11 (though, I'm not sold on the official story...)

As for the fighting, yeah, the ME has been a volatile place for centuries, but had maintained a relatively stable situation until the creation of Israel. It was the statehood of the Jews, and the resulting exodus of Palestinians, that created the environment we see today.

Who knows if peace will ever come without the annihilation of one side or the other, but I'm certainly not holding my breath over this latest round of talks.

I am, I'm dead serious. Being completely and wholly aware of the reasons that built up the situation as it stands, I hold to Stalin's philosophy on this issue and this issue alone, provided a working solution is never found or held to by the parties in conflict:

"Deaths solves all problems. No man, no problem."

Let them die, if they wish it upon themselves so fervently.

Another genius, as long as there are two people on the earth there is going to be conflict, so the only way to eliminate the problem is to exterminate mankind.

The Palestinians have the biggest chip to negotiate. Stop the rockets and terror acts.

Israel has negotiated for peace in the past with Jordan and Egypt, when have the Palestinians ever negotiated peace. Between the two groups Hamas and Fatah they are constantly fighting and killing each other.

Rockets and terror acts are as much bargaining chips as home demolitions and home confiscations. You have to look past this action and reaction cycle of violence, and really look at the big picture.

Not true, Joe Mont. It takes two to tango.

Some of the horrors that Israel has committed in the name of self-defense are criminal. What Israel is doing right now to the Gazans is in direct defiance of all international/Geneva convention laws.

And Jerry, Jordan and Egypt are both wealthy nations that had professional armies. Palestine never had that benefit. Plus, Israel only negotiated with Jordan and Egypt when it was apparent that both sides had much to lose in continuing the war. Since Israel has little to lose fighting the Palestinians, (besides international reputation they seem to care less about), I doubt there is any real incentive to stop the current status quo.

Sorry but neither Jordan or Egypt are rich and that is why they negotiated peace as it was in their economic interest. For example Petra in Jordan before peace was getting a few thousand tourists a year and now they are getting almost a million. Egypt has built complete resort areas for Israeli tourists to go to. Actually Israel has nothing to gain in fighting with the Palestinians as they receive no benefit at all and that is why they tried to return Gaza and look at the results of that unilateral decision.

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090119.htm

Maybe if Jesus actually comes back He can pull your head out of your ass. I doubt any mere living mortal has the power to help you.

Every knee will bend, even the Dragon's.

Seriously, Mary, I don't give any credence to religious nutjobs. There's no use trying.

Interestingly enough, you never let a Christian comment pass without attacking it. You have picked the perfect pen name. That said, the Lord rebuke you Satan.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Wow, Mary. Wow. You're either crazy or a really good troll. XD

Dragon, if you wish to act like a petulant child, then choose another board...maybe a teenage chatroom about video games would be more to your liking. Otherwise, keep it clean, please.

Just because some believe a higher power will someday come to wash away all the strife we have created in this world does not make them a nutjob. It makes them hopeful that a better day will soon come to pass.

I, for one, pray that God will bless all of us with another savior. I dread for the future of this world without one.

Ya the tooth fairy will save the day.

Contrarily, Indy, since you're wont to make a declarative that holding to that belief doesn't make someone a loon based solely on the fact that you say so, I'll take your cue and remain steadfast in my opposing viewpoint, as well.

But as far as keeping in clean, after being declared Satan by Mary? HAH. @!$%# you, Indy. @!$%# you. :D

Dragon, watch out! You have just been threatened by the big bad imaginary boogie man. Fee Fi Foe Fum and all that other Biblical horse crap and all.

Zionist regime, Really, spoken like a true terrorist.

This is America. When did exercising my right to free speech become an act of terror? And, am I wrong? Maybe the Jews forgot but preventive war was an invention of Hitler. No one has the right to wage war on a people based on what they, "might" do in the future. If Israel does not like that label than they should stop living up to it.

And just so you know CPAFlorida, I am not a racist, my Polish ancestors were all but wiped out by the Nazi's. The ones that made it killed many Germans. So quit playing the ,"Anti-Semitic" card. Your an accountant do the math, when did it become OK to kill people for crimes that they have not yet committed? And why does that sound familiar? If Israel invades Iran without provocation it is no better than government backed murder.

Joejibblets,

This is exactly my point. And I have also been called Anti-Semitic even though I am if mixed race. My mothers family are Russian and of the Jewish faith and my father is African American who's family were slaves for over 400 years our country and Baptist in faith.

I know a little bit about suffering so the Anti-Semite card doesnt fly with me either.

Thank you, Fedup!. I can't imagine the amount of adversity you had to overcome. I believe that America's diversity is it greatest strength. We are lucky to have you.

Thanks joejibblets...you dont know the half of it! Actually you do--good luck to you.

Hamas is easy to deal with. Jettison the garbage. Cut a deal between israel and the west bank only. Concentrate investment in the west bank and watch the gaza victims evacuate. The Hamas psychos will be left standing in an empty strip of rubble. Once ordinary people have something worth protecting, terrorist groups cant recruit them.

I actually fell out of a Campbell's soup can as a fully-grown and matured pterodactyl-man hybrid.

That being said, remind me to sacrifice puppies and homeboy figurines on an altar to Loki tomorrow for you, Linda.

Exodite Dragon, you are obviously an athiest, and that is your right (in this country anyway), but don't you find it a little ironic that you are continually attacking Christians on a blog discussing a conflict between Muslims and Jews?

These days, it is becoming more and more common for atheist and others to attack Christians since the cowards know that the Christians response will be that of love and understanding. You won't see the same attacks by these cowards on Muslims, the religion of intolerance and hate, as their response would be one of death threats and violence.

For the record, I'm no atheist. I'm simply anti-stupid, but, hey! Way to assume, bro.

Anyhow, please tell me what a man or woman contributes to an issue that might have a workable solution by only espousing the knee-jerk belief that God must descend from on high to solve our problems for us.

The whole issue here is a matter of religious belief superceding pragmatism, anyhow. There are elements of the Israeli government who will not be satisfied with anything less than complete control of the areas now held by the Palestinians and the entirety of Jerusalem based upon the notion that God willed them the land thousands of years ago. Likewise, there are elements like Hamas and Fatah that see the destruction of Israel as a commandment from God and a necessity to purge infidels of their interpretation of the faith.

Excuse me for not giving two @!$%#s about anyone who draws the Abrahamic God into any discussion on this topic except to spew sentiments that are born of the same willful ignorance to human reason as the combative parties.

Linda - Pray for yourself. As long as religious nuts continue to think only THEIR religion will save the world, we are screwed.

I agree with Exodite. I am a very religious person, however, I believe that we need to do the will of God for our own selves, and not every detail is "The will of God" and God isn't just gonna come save the day. Humans have a very unique ability to screw up everything, and we also have a unique ability to create. What we do here, on this world (and I guess any future worlds we conquer and terraform), is up to us. We are our own emissaries. God desn't creat Evil, he just allows it. So don't start going all crazy with "The end of days is coming" bull, God stood by during many worse times and let humans creat hate all by themselves. See the 1940's for any reference.

People create peace, god just gets happy (at least I feel he does) when they do. People also creat strife, and I assume he dislikes that. But its people.... stop blaming someone else.

Linda, excuse me but Jesus was our savior not our creator that was God himself.

Exodite,

The whole issue here is that Israel does exist and has a right to exist and have had that right since 1948. It is time for the other countries of the region to accept this and until they do there cannot be peace.

I find it hard to understand how people can actually belive there is some kind of god imposing their will on earth.

At one time man was told it was gods will that there be slavery or it was gods will we make sacrafices to please god.

Come on folks, the stories about gods are made up by man, there is no god really. If people need to believe to make themselves feel better fine, but when we start bringing it into politics it creates problems.

Anyone can say, its gods will, right or wrong. As long as we try and solve these types of problems with god solutions it's not going to work. There is no god.

If we dont have religious nuts thinking only THEIR religion will save the world, there would be no religion. That's what religions do. Just look around. Do you see any religions saying how great another religion is? That's not very good for membership. ;)

Jerry: What, in anything I've said, would make you feel the need to imply I didn't already understand that?

Why does israel deny palestine the right to exist?

The real problem when debating the world's major religions, is that most have deviated from the original intent of the religion's founding entities. Christianity today is a warped, perverted version of what Christ actually taught us. His message was simple, "Love one another as I have loved you". But the Church consciously canonized the Bible into the books that most benefitted the clergy over the lay population....see the Nicene council, etc.

Granted, all religions believe they are the only "right" ones, and whomever does not share the same beliefs will not be chosen by God. Nothing could be farther from the truth. When one studies the world's religions as they were originally presented, one finds that there are fundamental qualities that comprise a common denominator that is universal. Since this is not a religious discussion board, I won't bore anyone with the details. But look into people's near-death experiences for a rare insight into what spirituality truly is, and you'll understand how it has become secondary to religious dogma.

Dave-Sunny,

Israel has offered up much land to make a Palestinian homeland in the past. Lets say its smaller than acceptable (even though I don't think it is), they still don't deny the right for Palestine to exist. There are several mainstream Palestinian organization (See Hamas) that have publicly stated they will never accept peace as long as Israel exists. I don't care if you post something anti-Israeli, but don't lie and make things up. You have no basis for your statement.

At it was said that in the end times the religious nutjobs would exuded from the woodwork...

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090119.htm Ya they give them the right to exist as a prison camp.

This speech was given in 2007, he then gave the same speech in 2008 and again in 2009. Interesting she would come out with this at the same time Iran Bushnart Plant is getting ready to start and Russia is proudly saying they assisted in it.

lol, they will find them selves at War with God

Did god get that beach front lot he was wanting just off the strip?

This, more than anything.

I say eliminate the party system then move this country forward.

Are you nuts? the only thing holding back the crazies on one side is the crazies on the other side. Restore the 10th admendment and have the feds concentrate on their "guard the borders" role. They're obviously too distracted now.

Ahahaha.

We cant want their freedom more than they do. Cut off their allowance and let them sort out their own problems.

Egypt is no longer trying to steal more land, that's why. Israel is doing this as we type.

You seem to think that an entire population of people would welcome death and destruction only to spite the other population simply for being different? The Israeli-Palestinian conflict has raged for decades because of deep-rooted emotional afflictions caused by a lack of external international justice. If the US did not act like Israel's lapdogs, and if the international community, especially the ME, would force both sides to respect their commitments to peace, then this problem would've been solved years ago. But this latest round of BS peace talks will ultimately fail because the US and Israel refuse to acknowledge and cease all territory landgrabs.

Indy-How does a "deep rooted emotional affliction" explain the hatred the jews recieve from: Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan, the U.N......need I really continue? You are right about one thing- if not for the U.S. the Arabs would have killed the Jews long ago.

Look back at the Oslo accords and how Arafat blew it off then come back and tell us how Israel is the one at fault. You know nothing.

Chris

Can you explain how they have peace with Egypt and Jordan then?

jerry, Egypt and Jordan signed a peace agreement after getting their butts kicked by Israel, and accepting billions of American dollars, which was better than fighting a war they knew they could not win.

I notice in SOS Clinton's speech she indicated that peace talks would be between Israeli leader Netanyahu and Fatah leader, Abbas. I think they forgot Hamas which has been the biggest stumbling block in the peace movement. I think this is more of a political ploy to try and give Obama some political cover. We have been trying since the 1970s, and this won't work either.

Hey Moron,Israel always negotiated in good faith,it is the Palestinians that always change what they have been negotiating for,they always want more once Israel decides to give into they're demands and that is when Israel has had no choice but to stop negotiating.They are liars and never want peace with Israel, they want to conquer Israel,nothing less.

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090119.htm Israel stops all peace talks.

Your one of those disgruntled Jews aren't you

Wlee,

where ever or what ever is the opposite of you is fine with me. Having you on my side would really be embarrassing.

You don't even know what I'm talking about, as far as you being on my side I have no idea of your views nor you of mine, you don't need me to be embarrassing. In conclusion SO WHAT!!!