The article said Zebari is a Kurd, didn't you read it? The article also said that the reason there was so much difficulty is that the Iraqi soldiers are having a hard time setting aside their sectarianism, so in laymans terms, they are not professional enough to set aside their personal beliefs to be dependable soldiers.

Perhaps the Iraqi Government will get its act together and ask that we remain as trainers for their army. If so there should be conditions. Our soldiers should not participate in any fighting except in an emergency (Their lives in danger). Iraq should foot the bill for our men/women to be there.

I'll tell you why they still need us. I've been there. When we tried to train them, they do NOTHING and I mean NOTHING to try to learn how to take control of their own country. They're not exactly pioneer material. They're attitude is; if it's God's will, they will learn. Meaning, they don't have to study, or try because if God wants them to learn, it will come to them. There is nothing you can do to get them to see that they have to actually read a book, practice at home, study for a test or take instructions seriously. If those rocks with lips actually used their brains, they might learn something and we can finally go home. We can stay there for 50 years but with their current thumb up the ass approach, it'll do no good. It was like screaming at a brick wall. I get worked up thinking about it.

NO way!!! Bush signed the surrender document in Dec 2008 and gave us a timeline for withdraw. We're stickin ti it!

.

The Iraqi people do not know how to think on their own.

The only way that the people of Iraq will stop killing each other is to place another Saddam Hussein in charge.

How do you win another country's civil war? I have asked this question time and time again. The general calls it a sectarian issue. How about cutting through the crap and calling it what it is. The countries in that region of the world have tribal issues based on their particular brand of religion.

Now, the general says it will only be another 10 years and by gum, he'll have it down pat. What happened in the past 10 years? What happened in the past 100 years?

We cannot win another country's civil war. That is the correct answer to my question.

The next and MOST important question is: What do we do about it? The answer is: Get the hell out, and get out now.

If they want our forces, let them pay for them. Our cost plus a profit, plus a fund for the families of our dead, plus a fund for the wounded. Won't happen and we should leave if it does not.

One problem though, our government is to stupid to ask for compensation.

When I saw "Iraqi general wants U.S. army to remain until 2020" the first thing that popped in my mind was "Is it April fool's day?? This has to be a joke!"

The USA/Bush Jr removed the Ba'ath Party and Saddam from power in Iraq. The majority Shi'a Party now runs Iraq. When the USA departs Iraq, the Shi'a Party in Iraq will then finish the job Bush Jr started.

While the Ba'ath Party and the Kirds are fighting for their life in Iraq. The Shi'a Party in Iran will be supplying any needed assistance to the Shi'a Party in Iraq. The Iraq/Iran coalition will then become the USA's worst nightmare. And people thought Saddam Hussein was bad....... Ha! Ha!

It will be Carter's - CIA/ISI & OBL terrorist connection amplified. Except that the people being over-thrown will not be the USSR. It will be the USA's forces around the world and ultimately the USA it self....

This General lives there, he knows what is going to happen. Just like the last time the USA tucked it's tail and went crying home. The people that did not support the people left in power were MASSACRED.

George W. Bush, Cheney, Bremer, Rice, Rumsfeld, et. al. broke Iraq, let them fix it.

These Neo-Cons can use the billions, if not trillions of dollars they made on this illegal war, to hire mercenaries to stay (or something) until 2020.

Bring our troops home, now!

Make Iraq pay out of their pockets to keep our troops there in Iraq and give the soldiers the option of volunteering.

Hmmm.... Echoes of Vietnam? When we pulled out in 1973, it took only two years before SVN collapsed. We'll stay, but we have to be paid and not one more American dollar should be spent there. Either pay us back in oil or money, because thats what this whole thing is about isn't it? I can guarantee you that if we had not invaded and Saddam was still in power, we would now be arming him to once again take on Iran. Such is the way of the world- the enemy of my enemy is now my friend.

orbust it takes about 4-5 months to become a marine...then your specialization so lets two years tops. After that the boot is still dumb as dirt. it takes many deployments to become proficient. To create an entire organization? 10 years is the minimum...

When I entered the Army, we had 6 wks. basic, 8 wks. advanced infantry training and when we hit the ground in Vietnam we were ready to do what had to be done. If these people can't be trained in 6 years, then they can't be trained. You can train a damn monkey to protect itself with a weapon in that amount of time. I think they will pick it up very quickly when they realize that an American is not going to stop the bullets for them. We've been there long enough, bring 'em home, now.

The commander of Iraq's military is calling for U.S. forces to stay in the country for another decade, reinforcing his stance that his country's military won't be able to secure the nation on their own after U.S. troops leave.

Tough dookie.

We've been over there long enough and shouldn't have been there to start with. Those of you that didn't want the Ba'ath party in control - you got it - now deal with it.

The USA/Bush Jr removed the Ba'ath Party and Saddam from power in Iraq. The majority Shi'a Party now runs Iraq. When the USA departs Iraq, the Shi'a Party in Iraq will then finish the job Bush Jr started.

While the Ba'ath Party and the Kirds are fighting for their life in Iraq. The Shi'a Party in Iran will be supplying any needed assistance to the Shi'a Party in Iraq. The Iraq/Iran coalition will then become the USA's worst nightmare. And people thought Saddam Hussein was bad

AC Robertson I couldn't agree with you more on this point and there will be a massacre as soon as we pull out. The Shi'a have just been waiting for it.

They have barely contained themselves while we have been there.

There is no way Obama will take the advice of a military expert. Why? Because he thinks he knows everything, plus he needs some votes. We'll pull out of Iraq and leave the country to fall under the influence of the Islamic jihadist scum and it will be in a worse fix than before. Mr. President, please listen to the experts. Plans change due to circumstances so we need to follow through. This is not yesterday, it's today.

"President Obama the american people will hold you responsible for Iraq!! Please complete the Bush withdrawal plan now!!!"

Isn't that convenient? Where were you in 2003? The US cannot pull out of Iraq because the Army isn't going to be ready to take over, I doubt they'll be ready to take over in a decade. Look at Bosnia? We went into Bosnia before i graduated highschool and we're still there now. Much as the idiot republicans will be clamoring for us to pull out NOW, they're the ones who ultimately got us into the mess in the first place.

I'm certain everyone who will be raving for Obama's blood in the coming months are professionals on nation building and the outcomes of invasions. Here's a clue kiddies, when the US invades another country you can count on us being there for at least 50 years. When we went in to Bosnia they had already planned to be there for 50 years. We haven't even been in Iraq for a decade yet and you NOW you morons want to leave? Talk about Cut and Run, LoL. In for a penny in for a pound, amirite? I've never agreed with the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, and I want us out of there as soon as (if not sooner) than you troglodytes that threw us into the war in the first place, but make no mistake: when we pull out, there will be a vaccuum and nature abhors a vaccuum, so guess who's going to fill it? Like all other issues that involve the US meddling in another country's affairs for the sake of some politicians personal agenda or to make money: we've made our bed and now we have to sleep in it. Whatever happens in Iraq you can thank the bush administration, Obama is simply trying to clean up the mess that he made, so you can go stuff your BS about "President Obama the american people will hold you responsible for Iraq!!" I hold YOU responsible phillip, you and the rest of the neocon idiots who threw in on the fear/war mongering and lies that put us in Iraq in the first place. You don't like it? Too bad. Maybe next time you'll think a little harder before committing soldiers to Bulls**t again.

Right on target Zen---we all know that Bush and his cronies were never intending to leave---we all know why he sent our soldiers there---blood for oil---following advice from Darth Vader, I mean Chaney, he purposely destabilized the region---Iran and Iraq used to keep each other very busy---not any more---I think we will see a theocracy by the end of the decade---one that has nuclear weapons---probably supplied by China in exchange for all the oil they can get---the world power base is shifting even as politicians and the media in this country continue to sell the idea of American superiority to the masses---with an economy that used to be a producer instead of a borrower and spender, state and federal governments that pay lip service to quality education, a crumbling infrastructure, and politicians that are busy lining their pockets and spouting inflammatory sound bites, the future looks less bright by the second---we do not learn from the past---we ignore the present---we mortgage the future

So the general likes America spending trillions of dollars on his country. That would be on top of an estimate of $3 trillion for the war and reconstruction to date.

Nobel prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz in 2008 estimated the long term cost of the Iraq War to be over 3 trillion dollars.

The Iraq War Will Cost Us $3 Trillion, and Much More

By Linda J. Bilmes and Joseph E. Stiglitz
Sunday, March 9, 2008
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/07/AR2008030702846_pf.html

I was in favor of Iraq being partitioned - divided up, with the Shi'ite Muslims in the South, the Sunnis Muslims in the West, and Kurds in the North. The one and only formula to date for ruling Iraq is by one group subjugating the other groups. We had the Sunnis Muslims and Saddam as an example of subjugation through brutal force and genocide against the Shi'ite Muslims and Kurds. The only way to have partition is with a fair plan to share oil revenue, as most of the oil comes from the Shi'ite Muslim South. That hasn't really happened yet and it is the driving force behind the Sunnis Muslims.

And now we have the Al Maliki Shi'ite Muslim administration with the Sunnis Muslims and out of country Sunnis terrorists including Al Qaeda responsible for the anti government attacks. So what the general is actually saying is that he wants America to prop up a Shi'ite Muslim government not sharing the oil revenues fairly among all the provinces and the subjugation of Iraq by @!$%#'ite Muslims.

I was unimpressed with the last election and Al Malaki somehow "winning." His opponent probably won with a coalition. I have yet to see the Shi'ite Muslims capable of forming a coalition.

The bottom line is that the only way to have relative peace in Iraq is to make it like the rest of the Mideast where you have Sunnis Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan or Shi'ite Muslim countries like Iran.

Our leaving Iraq should not be dependent on an end to violence. Iraq has been a violent country for many years. The violence between Sunnis and @!$%#'ite Muslims has happened for hundreds of years. We desperately need a point of departure to keep American resources in America.

Well, considering the fact that I talked to my brother and quite a few people back then, and they were in the war....I think I will take their word for it that we still needed to be there. I understand your point as far WMD's are concerned. Thing is....Bush Sr. didn't do the job that he was supposed to do which was make sure Sadam was dead, so Bush Jr. did it. Sadam needed to be taken out either way. I do agree that we should have pulled out after we got Sadam. There is no question about that. Bush screwed up. Thing is...I don't think it would be wise to leave now. As my as the famous saying goes..."Rome wasn't built overnight."

You know....Obama may be trying to patch things up...but he's doing an terrible job of it. I also think the other guy was talking about the fact that Obama had said that he didn't agree with the war and he would put a stop to it....yet he didn't. He sent more troops out there. Bush isn't innocent of all of this by any means, but Obama isn't either. I wouldn't give much thought to the whole thing about holding Obama responsible for the war. For me....I've got plenty of other reasons as to why I don't like him as politician. So, are you going to tell me where to shove my "B.S."? If so...maybe you should a little harder about what you might say back to me :-)! Later!

American soldier's do not serve as the po-po force for the world! The Iraqi military has had damn near ten years to learn from the BEST in the world, and CHOSE not to. I've seen video from both Iraq and Afghanistan in which the U.S. military has offered their soldiers training and it was refused. In one video, U.S. soldiers come under attack and one of the trained Afghan's says, "It's lunch time" and heads into a Hummer DURING the attack! American soldiers have done more than they should have for both of these countries. They offered them a road to freedom, peace, and an organized government. What Americans received in return is too many of our soldiers killed, betrayal from within each country, and no appreciation for the wars back home. It's time to get ghost on these people. If they want the freedom, let THEM fight for it the same way every ethnic group in America has done for over 200 years. Good luck to them, send our soldiers HOME, NOW, and 'nuf said. . .

Should we not have known all this before we decided to get involved?

Should your plan for invasion have been thought out more clearly?

What was the exit plan? It was based on false premise - that if we topple Saddam in a few years the Iraquis will be able to take over the security for themselves ...FALSE.

See why there is a hesitancy to embark on such foolish ventures? All that calling people unpatriotic because they questioned our involvement? Now, those who called some of us unpatriotic for questioning the iraqui venture are now calling for withdrawal or they want us to stay indefinitely.

Sometimes not getting involved is best.

Our country's Legions have been in Europe for 65 years, Japan 65 years ,Korea 50 years, now Costa Rica, Africa, Middle East ; Rome took to long to bring their legions home, they spent their nations Treasury to protect their trade routes; our trade routes are gone, we are protecting the world corporate trade routes; bring our troops home, bring our industry back, protect our borders and remember it is both dem. and rep. that has brought us to this crisis !

It is Bush's plan to withdraw and I never saw anything stating it was Obama's. People stop making crap up. Articles have just said that Obama's plan is to stick with the withdrawal date. Plain and simple.

I'd say we can stay as long as they want us there. Start taking over the costs and pay back the US. Turn over those oil fields to fuel the armies there instead of us shipping it to them. We have several bases in that area. Why not, those countries pay us dearly.

We shouldn't be there to fix their own prejudices as we have them here of our own. I don't know the historical culture issues with these ethnic groups, but they should start believing in Iraq and not just their ethnic sides. That is a freedom they need to learn to enjoy and not be violent over it.

I'd say before the US pulls out. One last hard hit to keep everyone off the Iraq's toes. Then they can just work to clean up the rubble.

We will stay ONLY for free oil forever

All I know is that we need to take a look at the war in Afghanistan and Iraq and see how this benefits us or are we shedding our children’s blood in a wasteful adventure. Along with this we need to see if the government are helping, or is it that they are they so corrupt that instead of helping their people are they stealing the aid that we are giving and instead taking it for their own gain. Then we have our own government, instead of looking at things in a practical way all they do is continue to have bi-partisan battles and then go ahead and pass bills even though a vast majority of Americans are against it. Then they will not accept any responsibility, instead they keep passing the buck.

I do not know about you, but I am so sick of this administrations tactic of ‘It is Bush’s Fault’, and so is America (the polls do not lie, and if you look at the Rasmussen polls congress and the senate have a approval rating of 11% and the President has a approval rating of 25%. Bush in his second term had an approval rating of 36% at this time and in his first term his approval rating was 70%; and Bush sucked as a President).

The race card has been thrown out so much that now it means almost nothing for someone to be called a racist (you are called this if you are not a democrat, if you do not support the health care reform bill, if you are against comprehensive immigration reform that this administration is trying to push, or if you do not support Obama). I am Jewish, my wife is Asian, my ex-wife is Hispanic, my God-Child is African-American; I can state that I am very concerned about racial hatred and have a very person interest invested in it. But as the child that cried wolf, you today have people throwing out the racial card with such casualness that they are destroying what people have fought and given their lives to fight against.

What we do need is an administration that can admit that they did make mistakes but are doing something to correct it, a congress and senate that will take the interest of the well being of American interests over their re-election or party interest. And if they are not willing then maybe we need to look at starting new parties that will do this and throw these two parties out like the garbage they are.

Ang

Thing is...I don't think it would be wise to leave now. As my as the famous saying goes..."Rome wasn't built overnight."

Who's going to pay for it? I think we're in debt enough with China because of the wars. I don't know about you but I am not at all comfortable with owing anything to China.

And how long do you think we should stay? These people hate each other and none can wait to take revenge for the wrongs that have been committed against them by the other parties. It doesn't matter when we leave, it's going to happen.

This is and should be a civil war. Not our job.

I agree with Carolyn's statement.

Iraqi and Afghanistan soldiers are being forced to do a military job, they don't want, nor are they interested in running their butts off, killing their fellow Terrorist Iraqi's, and protecting their countrymen.

Lazy, comes to mind with the citizens there. So does illiteracy. Thousands of soldiers in these countries give up and just take off from their job and go home. In the meantime, it is a little bit of income for them, that's it.

America should not be the babysitters to Iraq and Afghanistan, especially when Iraq is demanding the US Military stay til 2020.

Our US Military, Commander in Chief, is in charge of when we go and who's going to stay. As in Germany and other countries we have fought, a certain amount of soldiers stay to keep the peace, but that is our General's/Government's decision.

Iraq will fall back, once America gets out. They are Tribal; the intense hatred for all other Iraqi's is from biblical times. Who can change that?

Too bad Sadaam was a crazy murdering Dictator. He knew how to keep the Tribes in line. No death wishing here.

Brandon:

You forgot Congress and all of the UN since Bush asked for permission before going over there.

I guess you've never been to Iraq,Hawaii2 ?? Iraq is much more like Iran than Afghanistan or Pakistan. It is a fairly modern country with the majority of its' citizens literate. The fact is no matter what happens Iraq is better without Saddam in charge.

While I would have far preferred delaying the removal of Saddam,that doesn't change the fact that Iraq's fact is in the hands of the Iraqi people. I don't know if we should follow the advice of this General or not, I have far more confidence in the Iraqi Army than the Iraqi Police force. I think the request should at least be considered, since abandoning Iraq and having it descend into chaos would only benefit Ahmanutjob !

Cut and Run?

You are giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

Remember all those sayings?

Now, all of a sudden ..cut and run is the thing to do.

Remember the well we are still in South Korea and we stayed in Germany...

Or..whatever it takes for however long

Hilarious.

And of course Iraq will pay all the costs involved in keeping the military there for the next ten years, right? How nice of them.

Fred G. from N.C.

I NEVER intended to say Saddam should have stayed as their murdering Dictator. It was simply an "example" of hoping there was another person who could rule, and keep control of it's own people in Iraq. No mass massacres. Peace there?

Yes, the Iraqi's are Warriors. How about the Kurds?. Who loves them in that country. It is a place for Terrorists to gather. How about all the constant car suicide bombings there? It is still chaos from a Government who is not fully engaged in keeping the peace.

We cannot forever be the babysitters of Iraq.

Literacy. I wouldn't bet on that. The Iranians are more literate than the Iraqi's. It is still a "jungle" in Iraq.

Staying til 2020. That is unreasonable. By then another significant War will "rear it's ugly head" for the Americans to engage in.

Am aware of a contingency of US solidiers staying behind in Iraq, as we pull out. That is true in all countries we have been involved in.

@Ang: "Bush Sr. didn't do the job that he was supposed to do which was make sure Sadam was dead, so Bush Jr. did it. Sadam needed to be taken out either way." Bush, Sr. didn't take Saddam out because it wasn't feasible. Bush, Sr. actually listened to the experts employed by the government and didn't go looking for yes men to agree with him so he could feel justified. Bush, Sr. also served in the military so he had a better understanding of what a military operation entailed and understood the consequences of committing our armed forces to a conflict of this magnitude.

"Obama may be trying to patch things up...but he's doing an terrible job of it. I also think the other guy was talking about the fact that Obama had said that he didn't agree with the war and he would put a stop to it....yet he didn't" It's kind of hard to stop a mountainslide AFTER it's been started. How would you have proposed Obama have handled this? I'm curious to know how ANY of you armchair quarterbacks who agreed with the invasion of Iraq would handle extricating ourselves from this quagmire?

And stephen, the problem with your argument about their prejudices is that it's our fault those prejudices are running rampant right now. Was Saddam evil? Yes. Was it our right to take him out of power? No. Who are we to go around the world playing like a god and "spreading democracy"? Not every nation is ready for democracy, hell the US doesn't even mastered democracy yet and we've had centuries, so how can we expect nations of tribes to pull together in less than a decade and understand it? We broke it, we should fix it or we'll just cause more hatred and strife (all of the reasons that led up to 9/11) all over again. You people wanted this way, at least have the stomach to do the right thing this time, the genuine right thing and not plundering a nation out of hubris and to make money for your cronies.

The Iraqi's came up with the date and Bush signed it as he always said we would stay as long as they need us, and we will leave when the want us to but if they change their minds and want us to stay longer, we will bet on it.

2020,,,,2030,,,,2040,,,,2050,,,, AND ON AND ON AND ON UNTIL THE CORRUPTION STOPS!!!!!!!!!

F**K YOU AND THE CAMEL YOU RODE IN ON GENERAL ZEBRA!

This is absolutely ridiculous. You sit on the 4th largest oil reserves in the world and we are supposed to keep pumping HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of our tax dollars into your corrupt government. Iraq has had nearly 20 years since the first gulf war to get their S**T together. Your Shia and Sunni religions confuse your common sense and you have no intention of ever being a democracy because your eyes are closed to western development. Your society is rich in culture and history yet you continue to insist on living in the past.

We have liberated you from a monstrous dictator, started rebuilding your country, infused HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS into your infrastructure and you keep infighting based on religious beliefs. It's time to grow up and look at the rest of the world passing you by. The possibilities for your country are enormous. You have THE most valuable commodity on earth,,,oil! You can build and rebuild your nation on the value of your oil reserves. You have the ability to develop as an emerging economy and a nation that can be a leader in the Middle East yet you continue your petty disagreements.

It's time for us to go home. We have helped you become a free and potentially prosperous nation, we can no longer keep spoon feeeding everything to you. Many other nations would be twice as advanced as you are given the opportunities you've had. Granted a part of the last 20 years was involved in war and destruction but now you have the beginnings of a democracy. Our nation took decades to stabilize and become what it is (present situation excluded). If we stay another 10 years what's to say you won't need ANOTHER 10 years and then another? You have to become INDEPENDENT rather than dependent. Many of our problems here are based on too many people losing their abilities to be independent and relying on others to take care of them and their problems. We are trying to correct our problems as you will have to also.

We can stay but at a significant price. We will be happy to negotitate a payment system with you or barter in oil. We have what you need and you have what we need, let's make a deal. If not, we're gone. Very simple. This is no longer a war, it's a disagreement. You have to learn to resolve your differences and become Iraq not America's problem.

Iraq needs another sadistic evil dictator like Saddam Hussein to maintain order. What's Dick Cheney doing these days?

#1.2: Too bad they don't recognize the Gods that took away their country, saying it wasn't good enough for them and then started training them to take control back. They must have given up on being able to be in control of their own lives, this past years, with terrorists like al-qaeda spread all over their country.

How about the Iraqi government taking a chunk of their oil revenue $$, and offering decent salaries and pensions to all who join their military and serve with honor?

Our country(the US) should do the same, and pay our combat troops at least 2-3 times what they now get(combat pay for grunts and those serving in harms way, not REMF's and higher ups who aren't in combat).

If soldiers aren't paid at least as much as mid level law enforcement officers and firefighters, then something is wrong. If they can't count on decent health benefits(equal to top quality private insurance) for themselves and their families, plus financial aid for their families if they are injured or killed, what incentive is there to join and fight in war?

Stephen-1709449
It is Bush's plan to withdraw and I never saw anything stating it was Obama's. People stop making crap up. Articles have just said that Obama's plan is to stick with the withdrawal date. Plain and simple.

From the article:

Under the Obama administration's plans, U.S. forces are due to start withdrawing from Iraq at the end of August

I love the look on the soldier's face that is "briefing" the troops.

It's almost as if that Iraqi general had just said to him: "You need to stay til 2020!"

And the soldier looks back and says: " Do you see what I'm dealing with?"

"You're joking right?"

#1: Iraq did have a very competent General, only that he wasn't a puppet of us, like the current one is - you can only expect the puppets to dance to your command, which clearly isn't good enough for the region.

As for getting out of there, has haliburton pumped off all the oil in their wells?

We cannot win another country's civil war

Right on. We were fooled by how easy it was to start one for them to ever believe that we can win it.

Right on. We were fooled by how easy it was to start one for them to ever believe that we can win it.

Well put! (SARCASM)

PFFFTTTHAHAHAHAHA!!!

George W. Bush, Cheney, Bremer, Rice, Rumsfeld, et. al. broke Iraq, let them fix it.

If wrong doers took responsibility there wouldn't be terrorism in the world, which just isn't good for the likes listed above that prey on fear

And if losers didn't pretend to be informed, the "Vine" wouldn't be nearly as entertaining as it is!

Sadam needed to be taken out either way.

Why? He was our (the US) creation in the first place. He wasn't allowing terrorism in his country, so that's no excuse.

Yes, he was a dictator. But are we going to go in and throw out EVERY tin pot dictator in the world? (Of course not, they don't all have oil.)

Yes, he was a dictator. But are we going to go in and throw out EVERY tin pot dictator in the world? (Of course not, they don't all have oil.)

Ahh but little Kim has Ginseng root. It's an aphrodisiac. Next thing you know the porn industry will be competing with the oil industry to convince our government to go to war.

First we gathered a bunch of friends (NATO allies), decided to jump in the quick sand, now almost everybody else is bailing out because it cost more than it's worth and we (USA) got stuck. They (Iraqi) don't have the inner will or desire, we can not go on forever buying them to do things. Bring our valuable forces home. Money can buy quite a lot of things but not souls. I've seen in Nam and among other places, it works for a little while but not permanently. I guess we never learn.

bobinfla-2118543

I thought Bush came up with this exit strategy long before obama won. The article said it's obama's plan. Am I wrong here?

you are correct... just loke when Nobama the clown took credit at the begining of the year, when there was a NATURAL order of hireings...i hope he takes full credit too when the layoff's start back up again too....lmao!

I TOLD YOU SO.

So many uninformed posts.

First, ever since the 1980s Iran Iraq Wars the US, UN, US Congress (your Representatives) had gotten Iraq (and here (Afghanistan)) ALL WRONG.

Second, History, ever since the Treaty of Lausanne there have been three distinct groups fighting for the same Country (Iraq). The Kurdistanis (Indo Europeans, Fundamentalist Shiites, Language after many decades various) wanting their own Nation (PKK, HPG, etc. currently fighting the Turks) of Kurdistan (southern Turkey, Syria, northwest Iran, northern Iraq), as the armed Allies of Iran. The Sunnis (Arabs, Sunnis, Language Arabic) mostly educated in the West, very Pro Western, demanded the Modernization of the Arab World and Women's Rights. The Shiites (Persians, Fundamentalist Islam, Language mostly Farsi mixed with Arabic (after years at Iraq)), first started flooding Iraq looking for work after the 1979 Overthrow of the Shah of Iran, filled up the southern half of Iraq coming thru Basra and Kuwait (similar to US Illegal Alien Situation), believed that Modernization of the Arab World is heresy according to Islam (being pro western (allies of the Jews and Christians) is punishable by death ("a horrible murdering"), Holy Koran (Quran) Sura 33.

a. This would be like uninformed Foreigners saying that North America (Mexico, the United States of America, and Canada) are all one Country and not Sovereign and separate Nations.

b. A lack of understanding this situation lead to:

1) the Northern No Fly Zone that allowed the Kurdistanis to seize Northern Iraq and the Northern Iraq Oil Fields unopposed (fought for by Iraq since the Iran Iraq Wars).

2) the Southern No Fly Zone that allowed the Shiites from Iran (thru Basra, and Kuwait) to seize the Southern Iraq Oil fields and the Oil Transfer Pipe Lines. This would be like the UN and other nations allowing Mexico to seize the Southern half of the US (a line drawn from northern California straight across to the East Coast)

3) left the Iraqis (especially the Pro Western Sunnis, former US Allies, educated in the US, example of how US backstabbed Iraqis on numerous occasions) with nothing, and being land locked surrounded by hostile nations. This would be like the Northern US being occupied by the former USSR and the Southern US being occupied by the former hostile China, and everything leaving the middle "United States of America" going north south east or west is immediately destroyed (no questions asked and Sanctioned by UN). This also meant that since the Iraqis Government (Sunnis) no longer controlled the Iraqis Oil Fields, no Oil for Food to the middle area surround by hostiles. This was another attempt at the US (funded) and UN to overthrow and stop the Iraqis President and Iraqis Parliamentary Government, stop Iraqis Oil Nationalization, and the Iraqis Modernization of the Arab World when this failed, the US Congress amended H.R.4655 and fully funded pre 9/11 2001 to include direct US Military Actions (Invasion of Iraq) "to Overthrow the Iraqis President and Iraqis Government and Liberate the Iraqis People", which became the Declaration of the Current War At Iraq.

Third, US Citizens believed what was said by US Politicians, United Nations, News Media about: 1. President Saddam Hussein and the Iraqis British style Parliamentary (Democratic) Government being Dictators etc. and killing his "own people" during War (Iran Iraq Wars, etc.):

a. The armed allies of the Iranians the Kurdistanis (their commonality both being Fundamentalist Islam anti Western (Modernization)) being "gassed" (Chemical Weapons), without realizing:

1.) who supplied the Chemical Weapons (hint: research Site 59),

2.) who had to gain (under pressure of Oil Corporation (US and Foreign) Lobbyists to US Congress if the Oil flow was no longer disrupted by the Iran Iraq Wars.

b. That the US under H.R.4655,

1.) Demanded and Funded an Insurgency (and assassins to kill the Iraqis President) to Overthrow the Iraqis President and Iraqis Parliamentary Government. These US Funded Insurgents were caught and executed, similarly if another Nation funded an Insurrection in the US and assassination of the US President (see US revised Insurrection Act, revised January 21, 2009 Patriot Acts, US Sedition Act, US Espionage Act, etc.).

2) When this US Funded Insurgency failed, the use of US Military Direct Actions was amended to the US Law, H.R. 4655, starting with Operation Desert Fox, December 1998.

3) This later became the fully Legal fully Congressionally Funded Law, as the US Military Overthrow of the Iraqis President and Iraqis Parliamentary Government, aka an Act of War (according to the 1907 Hague Convention and 1949 Geneva Convention), or the Legal US Declaration of the current War At Iraq.

4) The purpose of all of the above was to stop President Saddam Hussein and the Iraqis Parliamentary Government from:

a). Iraqis Nationalization of Iraqis Natural Resources (Oil) that would effectly remove US and Foreign Oil Corporation's Control of the Iraqis Northern and Southern Iraqis Oil Fields.

b). As demanded by the Islamic Nations Lobbyists to US Congress, stop the Heretic President Saddam Hussein and the Iraqis Parliamentary Government from instituting their plans for the Modernization of the Arab World and Women's Rights. The majority of the Fundamentalist Islamic Nations (especially the Arab League of Nations, most of the "Middle East" and North Africa). With the US Politicians and the UN believing them (Lobbyists). An example of this can be seen with the corrupt Kuwaitis being delegated with the management of the Iraqis Food for Oil Program, with the Kuwaitis constantly increasing the price of transfer of Iraqis Oil to the supertankers at Kuwait, making Iraqis Oil nearly worthless, meaning less or no food for the Iraqis Oil and Iraqis Starving, and Kuwaitis diagonal drilling from Kuwait into the Iraqis Oil Fields, leading to the demanded by Iraqis Parliament, the President/Commander In Chief Saddam Hussein invasion of Kuwait (to stop the Kuwaitis corruption and "starving of the Iraqis People").

To say Bush this and Bush that (either of them) this mess started with the Treaty of Lausanne (arbitrary dividing of the "Middle East" (especially the former "Ottoman Empire"). With US direct involvement with Iraq and Afghanistan being the US Military Training Teams from Germany to Iraq (Iran Iraq Wars) and Pakistan to train the Pro Western Afghan Muhajeen (later massacred by the Taliban in accordance with the Holy Koran (Quran) Sura 33 "Collaborators" to the Unbelievers (Sura 9.30 specially names the Jews and Christians as Unbelievers").

There is no difference between the self serving US Professional Politicians, Repugnants, Demoncraps, and In Depends (Adult Diapers). They all do not f**king listen (just like most of you will not read this post and will start name calling instead of bothering to: 1 research the facts, 2. Get your butt to Iraq or here (Afghanistan) so that you can see for yourselves (and "just visiting" for a year or two, while living separately from them on Green Zones, FOBs, COBs, etc. does not count.).

With the Current situation being that the other Permanent Members of the UN Security Council, China and the Russian Federation wanting the US out of the Middle East. For the reason, China has now surpassed the US in Oil consumption and the Russians also need the Oil from the Middle East (and are more than willing to get it, example: recent Russian Federation events at Abkhazia). With China and the Russian Federation using Iran (again like the Iran Iraq Wars) as Proxy Fighters by supplying them with weapons and technology (reason we already know what type of missiles the Iranians are building, three stage solid fuel missile motors, subobital/orbital warheads (making short range ship launched Ageis ABM ineffective, reason why the Russian Federation is protecting one of their Oil Supplies (Abkhazia) with long range land based ABM, as proven reasons of US deployment of INF versus inaccurate less reliable USN SSBNs.). With Iran using the Al Quada, Taliban, Hamas Foreign Fighters, Chechen Foreign Fighters, Libyan Foreign Fighters, etc. as Iranian Proxy Fighters.

Sarcastically, hope you like more BP like spills as Oil Corporations are going to have to take more risks to replace the lost Iraqis Oil. Or not having electricity to recharge your electric car batteries (electricity from Oil burning electric power plants). Oil based Plastics less available. Just like Germany towards the end of WWII after losing all sources of Oil and scrambling to find alternative energy and failed (note most of our ideas come from their attempts to replace oil. examples: Coal to liquid fuel, nuclear power plants, biodiesel, etc.). While the Chinese and Russian Federation finally get the US Out of the Middle East.

Since most of you will not read nor believe all of the above. I am ending this post here. Take a rough guess how I know (first hand). My US Military Officer Involvement with the "Middle East" since the 1980s, numerous consecutive tours (Iraq and here (Afghanistan)). And most of us (frustrated, tired, worn out, pissed, etc.) just want to come home and get thrown on US Unemployment (along with the Millions of US Civilians of the US Military that directly and indirectly provide support to the US Military), then we can get drunk and laid; since all of you do not want to listen anyway, so this (Iraq, Afghanistan, "Middle East") is a lost cause due to your, your Congressional Representatives, UN, etc. lack of knowledge and do not want to hear the facts (and all of you that saw the movie "Green Zone", specifically Mr. Martin Brown telling the Political Appointee (Clark Poundstone) off was a joke (they do not even know what is happening outside the Green Zone, and have a bunch of Interns run the War), that is really how it is; same here (Afghanistan), with President Obama Political Appointees Eikenberry and Holbrooke and the US Civilian Chain of Command (Political Appointees, Interns). example: Eikenberry and Holbrooke negotiating with the UN and President Karzai the current UN Conventional Rules of Warfare (as the Rules of Engagement), with minimal or no US Military input (the reason General McKiernan, General McChrystal, and now General Petraeus can really do nothing to change these Rules and can only look for loop holes).

Thank you David!

The US will be in Iraq, just like South Korea, Germany, and most other countries, from NOW on!

The US Military Industrial Complex rules the US = brainwashing, scare tactics!

Mission Accomplished! (while the average US Citizen, can not make ends meet and America crumbles)

Thanks David, you got my vote.

Im sick and tired of us invading countries, pissing trillions away, because of Israel.

I know allot of you and most of the people in power in Washington want to blame this all on Bush, but look at the alternative - Let's tell all these crazy people that have zero tolerance for anything or anyone that does not agree with them and tell them how sorry we are. Let become soooo concerned about their feelings while they could give a rats a@# about ours. And how about having them sign over right to oil that will repay us so we can pay back all the money we borrowed helping keep their corrupt as@#$ in power.

All I know is that I am so sick of this nonsense and these people that spew hatred for us out of one side of their mouth while begging us to stay out of the other side of their mouth. Maybe we should just arm all the people over there and let them kill everyone, then we will have no more zealots that demand we show them respect while they refuse to give us any at all. And do not get me started on tolerance (we need to show respect for their faith and allow them to try to convert us while they kill anyone that shares a faith that is not theirs).

And for you Democrats that are going to yell, you had your chance and you are screwing things up worse then the Republicans (I did not know that this was possible two years ago). And people wonder why so many of us are becoming independents. I have a great idea, why don't we send all of congress and the senate over their, when they are done these people will commit suicide so they do not have to hear the lies anymore. Problem solved.

david ; good

Excuse me SacramentoMike for asking; What the @#$ does or did this have to do with Israel. Oops, you forgot to blame this on Bush, I am sure this will come soon.

Do us all a favor, study before you come to conclusions.

SacramentoMike - Im sick and tired of us invading countries, pissing trillions away, because of Israel.

We are NOT fighting for Israel. Keep on spouting off that Fundamentalist Islamic rethoric.

Go get your own f**king oil or do not drive, use anything from oil (including electricity or even plastic insulation for the electrical wires).

Come and get your own lithium. Where do you think all that lithium for the batteries for the new Michigan electric car battery plant visited by President Obama, July 2010, is going to come from. I previously posted about the mineral wealth of this place (Afghanistan) before the news media ever got wind of that (after crawling around (spelunking) in the old mine shafts dating back to when there was a Roman Empire). With OBL using these thousands of miles of mine shafts to travel undetected between many countries.

I am sick and tired of your Bankrupt Illegal Alien Harbor State of California demanding Collective Punishment of all US Taxpayers by giving Illegal Aliens over $10 Billion USDs per year of Public Assistance from the California yearly Budget of $85 Billion USDs. And that does not include ESL, Cultural Awareness Classes, Public Housing, US Taxpayer paid Public Education, etc.

And the Israelis are using the US Aid Money to Israel to keep the Hamas Warlords from sending more of their Hamas Foreign Fighters Worldwide to kill Jews and Christians in accordance with the Holy Koran Suras 2.190 to Sura 48.16 (and every number and decimal in between). With these Hamas Foreign Fighters captured at Iraq, here (Afghanistan), South and Central Americas, Africa, former USSR Countries, Europe, Mexico, etc..

Can anyone give me one good reason we need to stay there?

Let me just stop you here if you think that "because their forces are not sufficient to hold the country from the opposition" is a good reason for us to stay there because my response to that is... so what? Who cares if the opposition takes control of Iraq? Iraq is on the other side of the world... what happens there should be none of our concern.

david-475776 and Tbenton <<< Israeli alert!!!

For starters, how about negotiating payback?

The war continues to be a major draw on funds which could more directly benefit citizens of the US.

US soldiers and contractors are dying daily to protect Iraqis. Does the American taxpayer receive the same degree of commitment from Washington...?

We will never exit the East. It is written of wars and rumors of wars. We are on a time line with God, no one else. It should be interesting.

It is only popular for the dixie chicks to go over seas and b-tch about America. If you gia, don't like America you're welcome to carry your a$$ back home and take all your socialist friends with you.

It'll never happen. Herding cats is far easier then getting those rock heads to deal with their problems. They have a very dependent attitude, whether it be on us or Allah. The second we leave, the Taliban will be back as if we were never there.

Wait, wait. THEIR problems?! You mean, the problems that YOUR army created when they invaded? Nice.

That region of the world has had problems since right around the time Islam was invented...

Iraq had a functioning state before the US army invaded. True, a state ruled by a crazy, sadistic tyrant (who, by the way, was supported by the US while he was willing to do your dirty work for you!), but a state nonetheless. And said state suppressed the sectarian violence we see now, which is a direct result of your invasion. Now Iraq has nothing, and it is the US fault. You have to be a complete coward not to face that truth and admit it.

You went there, thinking you'd drop a few bombs, wave your big guns at the local towelheads and oil will magically begin to flow to the US. Only things didn't turn out exactly like that, and now you're running away from the mess you created, letting the innocent people caught in the violence you began without any protection. You're cutting your losses and running, but those innocents have nowhere to run, and nowhere to hide. At the very least you can have the grace and bravery to admit that what is going on in Iraq is a problem created by the USA.

gia

You said YOUR army. Are you not an American?

No, KSte, I happen to be an European. My country also has troops situated in Iraq.

While I understand the US people's wish to cut your losses and stop seeing your children come back in coffins from Iraq, I also find it cowardly and repulsive that you wouldn't admit that your government is at least partially responsible for what is going on there. "Let them deal with their own problems" you say, and then you start mourning the Americans who died. What about the Iraqis who died?

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

This site follows the civilian deaths only - those innocents who died as a direct result of your invasion and the Pandora's box of sectarian violence you opened. Do you even think about those people? Do you care that over a 100,000 innocent civilians are dead because of your invasion? If one reads the comments on this forum, they can conclude that for the average American, those 100,000 dead innocents are nothing but a number.

gia

Perhaps YOUR European country can close the gap in Iraq when we leave. What about the Iraqis that Saddam murdered using WMD on his own countrymen?

Gia- Just a note, we Americans have bailed out you Europeans time and time again and all we get is a slap in the face. I did not agree with the decsion to attack Iraq back in 2003 but once we did we had a commitment to see it through. You can throw all the numbers of civilian deaths around you want but Saddam killed many more and no doubt when one of his sons took over eventually it would have been much worse. At least we are not afraid to act like many European countries did not do to stop agression back in the late 30's vs. Hitler. Sticking your head in the sand and looking the other way does not work and some times confrontation is the only option when diplomacy fails.

This is not about the Europeans, and this is not about Saddam. This is about you admitting that your invasion is responsible for the violence and anarchy that currently murders innocent Iraqis EVERY SINGLE DAY. You keep calling it "Iraqi problem" but you are the ones who created this problem in the first place. Don't you have the dignity to at least admit that?! As for your commitment to seeing it through, considering that your troops are withdrawing and that the violence you unlocked is continuing... well, I am guessing you're getting a divorce? Why don't you go and ask the Iraqis what's worse - constant anarchy and threat of being torn apart by a car bomb or living in an oppressive, but relatively orderly state?

And don't you even dare to bring up WW2. The only reason half the world isn't singing "Heil Hitler" now are the 20,000,000 Russians who died in the Great Patriotic War and managed to break the bigger part of Hitler's forces. When one watches your historical tv programs about WW2 one might think that the Eastern Front didn't exist and you single-handedly won WW2. What a joke.

OK, now I see which country you are from. I am not sure if they taught you what actually happened during WW2 due to the revisionist history of the communist era but after the Russians and Hitler decided to split Poland up prior to the German invasion they got a little taste of what dealing with Hilter would bring. Nothing good. He then invaded and the Russians took terrible losses and suffered terrible atrocities at the hands of the SS and Nazis. As the Russian army beat the Germans back they left of trail of dead civilians and raped women and girls unlike anything in history. Read and Anthony Beevor book for context sometime. The friendly Russians then enslaved almost all of Europe for the next 50 years. Real nice. Gives you a lot of room to talk about the USA being the bad guys.

The Russians didn't break the bigger part of Hitler's forces - inept management by the German military did. Russia's just damned lucky that the nasty German's ego got in his way.

gia

If we didn't enter WWII You would be speaking German and you would be smelling the stench of the ovens and burnt flesh. Europe was broken and unable to mount any force against Germany. England was the only European country that was able to defend itself and mount attacks on the Germans. YOU need to read your history and visit the graves of the American servicemen who died defending you. Say a prayer thanking God that we didn't just put All of our resources in our fight against Japan. Japan was our only threat in WWII.

Gentlemen,

While I applaud both of you on your patriotism, the bottom line is that both of you are right in a sense. However, the U.S. did disband the world's fourth largest army, fired all members of the Ba'ath party (to include doctors, teachers, and other professionals), and indirectly created the insurgency. Yes, we bear some of the blame, but there is no free lunch nor should there be a blank check. History tells us that the Sunni/Shia split will continue no matter what and the violence will only intensify after the U.S. departure.

As far as the U.S./European thing, Mike, you should remember that France (a European country) helped us during the Revolutionary War (if only to poke the British in the eye), and we returned the favor on June 6 1944. Interestingly enough, there are NO U.S. bases of any kind in France to this day.

BTW, I am an active duty Soldier with nearly 19 years in and have been to both Iraq and Afghanistan. More importantly, I am a student of history, which many Americans seem to have forgotten....

Boys and girls, I went to school AFTER communism fell in my country, and when everything the communism taught was denied and rejected. No revisionist history there. If anyone's brainwashed here, it's YOU.

Ok mr European....whats your fix, wheres your countrys troops in the hundreds of thousands, with dead coming home to moms and dads every month. Until your country takes our countrys looses in dead head count, injuried, and loosing arms and legs....................maybe you should evaluate your thought process or your country step up to the plate. I appreciate your opinion

but until the dead and dying in the thousands are from your country rather than USA troops sorta just wish you would shut the hell up aye.

I dare bring up WW2..............and appreciate the fact that russians did loose lifes in stopping the Germans however it took the USA and USA dead to defeat the Germans.

If the USA had not entered the war chances are you folks would still be "Hail Hilter" each day verses blaiming americans every chance you get.

So whens your country sending thousands of toops to address your concern after we pull out?

Step up to the plant, stop your crying, and come up with a Fix that lets other countrys (yours) young men take over the war and accept thousands of dead your men verses dead americans.

I thought this thread was about Iraq as opposed to WW2?

as much as i love being American, i do have to agree with Giaon the note of world war II, America, as it has always done, did not enter world war II promptly because we were selling equipment and weaponry to both sides in the conflict. we then entered the European conflict out of sheer necessity of no longer having anyone to trade with if Hitler controlled all of Europe and Great Brittan. and i know i will get attacks about Pearl Harbor, so i will say now, that caused this country to enter war with Japan, not Germany. the Russians had a bigger fight and a harder fight, and we the first to reach Berlin...go figure.

i also agree with Gia on her statements about Iraq, Saddam was fine to the US government when we were selling him airplanes and weapons to fight the Iranians in the Iran-Iraq war. and we were fine with him when he bought all those F-14s and F-16s from us( right before we blew them up in the gulf war, which we fought for a small sovereign state called Kuwait, one of the worlds largest oil producers). the fact remains that Saddam, while a terrible genocidal dictator, never attacked the USA and was a stabilizingfactor in the Middle East, keeping EVEN bigger retards like Ahmadinejad at bay. now we will probably have to intervene in Iran too.

we should never have entered Iraq, and there is no way that our boys should remain there any longer, it has been seven years too long. Iraq will never be stable and neither will its military, because their religion will not allow them. he only thing that radical muslims can agree on is their hatred for the USA, aside from that, they would as likely kill each other (sunnis and @!$%#es) regardless! and quite honestly, i am fine with that, if the plan all along was to create a destabilizing civil conflict in that area where they would kill each other off first, then bravo mission accomplished.

i think it is high time that we withdraw from the middle east, ENTIRELY, meaning Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Kuwait all together and leave the people of Allah to their own devices. if God wills it, their situation will solve itself. if Iraq, or any other country for that matte wants US forces to remain in their country and act of their little bodyguards, i feel that is is only fair that they compensate this country for it. if they want a US base in their country, that country should have to pay to maintain the base; @!$%# everyone else, America has been running around like the World Police for far to long, when all that has happened is we have destroyed the economy of this country and have watched the rest of the world plummet into instability and chaos anyways!

gia: "our" army responded to global terrorists for everyone...as did about 40 other armies including most of western europe and Canada. So what hole are you from? One he key Bush policiies was to not differentiate between those commiting violence and those fomenting violence- Saddam fell into the latter group. If you remember, Saddam himself claimed to have WMDs; what we did after is on his head. He had an entire region terrified, including Kurds in the north, Iranians, Kuwaitis and Saudis- all who had been invaded at some point in time. So: how did "WE" create the problem? (btw- I am not a republican, so u can drop that arguement right off the bat...)

Rock, you invaded Iraq under the false pretense that Saddam possessed WMDs based not on his wild ranting, but on false and DELIBERATELY lying reports of your intelligence organizations. Don't go around spreading lies about why your former government began this war, because some of us actually do bother to study history and pay attention to what is going on around us.

As for those fomenting violence, need I remind you that most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis? I don't see your country invading Saudi Arabia, which is a breeding ground for radical Muslims.

No, gia, what's going on in Iraq is a problem created by Islam and thousands of years of ignorance. We got rid of the crazy, sadistic tyrant, and anyone man enough to admit it would agree that, since he WAS 'supported by the US while he was willing to do our dirty work for us', he was and should have been our moral responsibility to remove. And we did, albeit not as soon as we should have. That's where OUR problem ends. We gave them freedom, and look what these ignorant 'towelheads' as you call them are doing with it. Reverting to the primitive, stone age culture that they are and killing each other in the name of Islam. Yeah, "said state suppressed the sectarian violence we see now..." through fear, religious and sectarian repression, torture, rape, mass killings, genocide (with regards to gassing the Kurds), etc. So what you're really saying, whether you are capable of thinking this far ahead of your nose, is that the only way to bring stability back to these people would be for our military to pick up where Saddam was interrupted, or replace Saddam with another ruthless dictator. After all, these 'towelheads' are demonstrably unable to function in a civilized manner without such brutal coercion. Wonderful! Trying to help a people who are collectively too stupid to help themselves when given the opportunity is a lost cause. It's like saving a suicidal person, if you don't remove the reason for suicide, you're only delaying the inevitable. And this reason is the ignorant and violent culture of a religion that does not tolerate and will not respect intellectual differences. Our military cannot change that. Thousands of years of civilization throughout the outside world has had no effect on their ignorance, they refuse to let it in. All they need to do is live together in harmony and, with their incredible wealth of black gold, they could have a better future than we have at the moment, but they are utterly incapable of understanding that. The only way what's happening over there will ever stop is if we get the hell out of the way and let them kill each other. THAT seems to be the only thing they understand. So I say we should not lose one more American life, nor any sleep, over these stone age people after the 31st of this month!

Gia your ignorance is astounding. I am a military historian and can tell for sure that without all the shipment of supplies to Russia via Lend-Lease, Russia would have fallen. We literally shipped thousands of vehicles and millions of tons of supplies via the North Atlantic to Murmansk. Decades after the war ended, people were still finding Spam and other supplies that had been stockpiled in various locations by the Russian Army in anticipation of their being pushed back the Ural mountains. Lickily for Russia, the U.S. invaded North Africa in 1943 and took pressure off the Eastern Front since the Germans had to divert resources to North Africa to try and stem the tide.

If Hitler had not tried to Micromanage the front, Russia would have been conquered even with our help. This would have eventually caused the fall of the United Kingdom. It would also have allowed Germany to eventually concentrate in the Middle East. If that had happened, the pogroms would have started exterminating the Muslim populations next since they are not even European, let alone Aryan, at least according to Hitlers' view of the world.

Without the U.S., the rest of the world would have been subjegated by Germany and Japan long ago, except of course the western hemispherem since the U.S. would have protected it from invasion.

The U.S. was not even paid back by Russia, China, and all the others for all the material and money that was given them by the U.S. If we were to calculate the amount that was owed and then add on compouding interest over the last 65 years, these countries would now owe us money and the U.S. would not have any debt. The only country to fully repay all of its debts to us was Great Britain.

So in my opinion, the rest of the world that was saved by us can go suck it and it would be a cold day in hell before I would pay any of them any thing. As a matter of fact, we should demand that they all pay up NOW. Then we should tell any country where we have a base that we will pull out unless they wan to foot the bill. We could then reopen bases within our own country which would have great economic benefits for the areas where these bases opened. Preferably this would be along the southern border. This would reduce the amount of border that would have to be patrolled by Border Patrol since the military would patrol their own bases, and usually have the ability to shoot to kill anyone trespassing on a military instillation.

Why don't we pull back from protecting the world and see how things go for all of them. They would be whining within a few years for us to come back.

eiym777- First off thanks for your service! I hear you on the French deal, I just thought we were even after WW1. A 117,000 US boys were killed over there and I think that wiped the slate clean. Just rubs me the wrong way having a Russian paint the US as the bad guys after what they did to Europe after WW2, their support of North Korea in the Korean War, Afghanistan, and what they are doing and have done in Checyna.

Wow. My comment above (2.20) was in response to Gia way up at (2.4), but the whole community jumped on him while I was typing. Sorry to appear out of context!

Gia, if you are European, you must have a Doctorate in the English language. Otherwise you are an expat living in Europe from, I would guess North America. I live in Europe and know many, highly intelligent people who could never use the colloquial style English in which you speak . Very few Brits, South Africans, Australians, you name them, would ever use some of the words you use in text. Not to mention the lack of American history in Europe. Yes you are highly educated beyond the norm, please clarify! Your opinions aside!

It's amazing how many knuckleheads want to pile on gia's simple statement of facts.

I agree. All these ppl know is killing, torture and hate. I think our presence makes the situation worse. The only thing they want us for is our money which we freely hand out like candy. Our country is broke, which might be what Osama wanted from the beginning - a weakened US. We have been there a long, long time. These ppl should have learned how to take care of their own security by now. If they haven't figured it out by now, we can't just stay forever! What happens in 10 yrs if they still aren't ready? Give me a break! We need to leave so they can figure out how to stand up for their own country. If they want freedom bad enough, they will have to fight for it!

We are tired of sending OUR tax dollars to a country of ppl who hate us. The American ppl are done paying.

It is OUR problem.Iraq was stable before bush illegally invaded it. so it is our problem to keep it safe. you should have thought about that before supporting destabilizing this region of the world. top 5 dumbest things bush did.

The reason why the majority of soldiers in Iraq are US soldiers by a vast majority is because the Iraq war is a US war, started by the US.

Other countries soldiers that are there are sent as a sign of support to the US. If people on this thread feel like their US soldiers should not be there, can you imagine what people from other countries with their soldiers dying for your war feel like? I think some people here forget this and are not very grateful.

If any one would like to respond to this comment please do so without dragging past events. I am talking about the now.

they don't want us to leave we keepumping money to them are you kidding you're on your own when are they going to start paying with all that oil money bush said was going to pay for the war another bush lie

Tigers the Man

What was the point in your post? Gia can use the English language well, therefore he must be an expat living in North America? Your both arrogant and offensive at the same time.

One could easily say that members on this site that are Americans and that can use the ENGLISH language well must have spent time in the UK, where the English tongue originated.

Its funny how all you pansy ass human rights advocate get so upset over a woman who is going to get stoned to death in Iran and are saying we should do something. But when it comes to Saddam killing hundreds of thousands we should mind our own business. What way do you want it? No need to reply its whatever suits you. Look at what he was doing to the Kurds no different than Hitler. And his two sons feeding people to lions cause he wanted their women or beating your soccor players cause they lost a game.

gia, how many troops does your country have in Iraq to assist with their protection? I couldn't find that in any of your posts. How many coffins have returned to your homeland filled with your young people?

Steve and rock, you guys are idiots. "We got rid of the crazy, sadistic tyrant, and anyone man enough to admit it would agree that, since he WAS 'supported by the US while he was willing to do our dirty work for us' That's where OUR problem ends."

Seriously, ignorant, asinine thinking like that is the reason we're stuck in Iraq now. Gary and Gia are calling it correctly. We created Saddam and were fine with him while he was doing what we wanted him to do. Guess what happens when you create a monster and he starts thinking on his own? We took Saddam out and created the power vaccuum that exists in Iraq today. If we leave the vaccuum will be filled, but not like you or the other war mongers who insisted on this war in the first place will like it. It takes more than a decade to "build a nation" in a place that has never had to govern itself. We should have never invaded Iraq in the first place if we weren't going to do right by the people. Do I want to be in Iraq? Hell no. Do I know and understand that now we have to be in Iraq? Yes. Do I like it? No, but oh well, it's not my choice. I've been in the military for 14 (almost 15 years) and I'm going to end up doing the full 20 (maybe 22) years. In that time I imagine I'll have to deploy to either Iraq or Afghanistan about 3 more times. But I've accepted that fact because the American people made a very stupid decision based on false information that they didn't question. Does the majority of America have to pay for that mistake? Nope. That falls on the few who do join and have remained in the military. From the bottom of my boots I thank all of you who have made that possible. Seriously, as a soldier you guys will always be remembered as the morons who let an idiot throw away a generation of people for hubris.

Definition of a quagmire = a war we should not have started and now we are supposed to be obligated to be there for another decade at the cost of trillions of dollars as America is being sucked dry for dealing with our own economy.

George H W Bush had the opportunity to pursue the fleeing Iraq Army into Baghdad and overthrow Saddam. His Mideast experts and most of the native Mideast experts in the country recommended not invading and creating a quagmire. That left several key George H W Bush top staff mad, including Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld.

Any random accident that Cheney and Rumsfeld became key members of the neo con think tank PNAC, the group that advocated for "The Plan For A New American Century" (American Empire) and in 1998 recommended invading Iraq and overthrowing Saddam?

Cheney became the number one neo con liar in the administration to get us to invade Iraq. He should have been impeached out of office. Any random accident that we used the opportunity to divert resources from Afghanistan to Iraq, with its oil reserves? Nope. That Halliburton got rich in the process and Cheney was an ex Halliburton CEO? Nope. That American companies got the contracts to develop their oil fields? Nope. That much of the oil revenue that should have gone to the Iraqi people went missing within the Pentagon bookeepingt? Nope.

Zen, let me spell it out for you. First, you (as I said in my post) agree with me that "we created Saddam and were fine with him while he was doing what we wanted him to do." Since we agree in our "Seriously, ignorant, asinine thinking", just whose responsibility is it to deal with him when he became the monster? I thought the answer would be self evident to thinking people.

Second, I did not agree with this war either. I admit, I voted for Bush, the first time because of Gore of course, the second time I refused to vote, only because the thought of Kerry made me sick to my stomach. But I agreed with Afghanistan, but not Iraq.

Third, what or whom are we supposed to be protecting the Iraqis from? They are killing one another. There is no outside threat yet. There certainly will be if they don't start acting like civilized people who deserve a nation of their own and start behaving like a civilized nation. But, as I pointed out, because of their stone age religion, they'll never be able to do that. So, yes, a country like Iran, who will treat them the way Saddam treated them, will fill that vacuum and accomplish what our military would never be able to accomplish; forcing them to stop killing each other. Let them. Iraq is not worth any more of our soldiers lives, even stupid ones like you.

Fourth, "...the American people made a very stupid decision based on false information that they didn't question." Since 'the American people' were not privvy to confidential intelligence reports, any 'stupid decisions' were based upon which politician or news agency you wished to believe most. But I and many other people were against the war only because we knew that it would be spreading us too thin and was therefore an obvious bad idea.

and fifth, "Seriously, as a soldier you guys will always be remembered as the morons who let an idiot throw away a generation of people for hubris." As a Vietnam Vet, I know that the 'morons' are the politicians who do the thinking for us.

jon,

i also agree with Gia on her statements about Iraq, Saddam was fine to the US government when we were selling him airplanes and weapons to fight the Iranians in the Iran-Iraq war. and we were fine with him when he bought all those F-14s and F-16s from us

Ahem...the Iraqis got their aircraft from the Russians and the French...their small arms were Russian as was their armor and artillery. When you choose to throw ignorance out there Jon, people tend to discount you opinions altogether.

AC

The colonel is right jon. We sold weapons to Iran in the Iran v. Iraq war. Remember Oliver North?

We gave Iraq tactical intelligence in the form of satellite pictures and the like.

I think we were mainly supporting the buzzards to win that war.

Well Zenfreedom, you are obviously NOT a combat soldier- and even if you were, you assume a lot. You also seem to be able to blame a previous generation for starting this war, but are not willing to go back far enough for generations before that (2001). Whether we trained Iraqis or not, doesn't mean we can't rectify a situation. If something is wrong, you fix it. You (if you are in the military, which nothing you said gave an indication) don't impress me by sitting your ass in uniform for 14 years w/your attitude. It is hypocritical- by your logic, you are in effect supporting an illegal war machine. I did my eight in the suck; I loved it. But: if at any point I thought i was doing harm instead of good, I would have left immediately. You are nothing more than a guy on welfare...staying on the government's dime as long as you can. Get a life and an ideology.

to Gia,

You know as well as I do that the fact of the matter is that no matter how long we stay there we will be blamed for whatever is still wrong with the country. It does not matter if it is somthing that was wrong before we got there. It does not matter if it is out of our control or not (sectarian violence).

You mentioned that Iraq was functional before we took Sadaam out. Under Sadaam, you fell in line if you valued your life. That is what Iraqis understand...comply or die. After he was removed the Iraqis formed a new government and because they were paranoid about a certain sect wielding all the power (like under Sadaam and I don't blame them) they decided they need x amount of each sect in the government. The only problem with this is that all sects do not seem willing to compromise with any other sect. Each sect acts like a spoiled brat that will not budge until it gets its own way, compromise is not an option, it will make us look weak is the general consensus. (my 8 year old is more mature than this). This is why they can not even get through an election.

Us solders are still the world's best and it takes 2 years to train them. Iraqis simply do not want to risk their lives for their country, I have seen training videos, they simply don't seem to care AND IT SHOWS!

All they have been doing since we have been there is crying about how they want us out, (Politically motivated i agree but that is the fact none the less) then we start agreeing with them and they change their minds. The bottom line is that these folks have had PLENTY of time and assistance to get their poop in a group. At his point we should make Iraq an offer, cover our expenses and we will stay as long as you pay.

gia... another point you so conveniently forget is that Germany declared war on the U.S. not the other way around. Germany was allied with Japan. When Japan attacked the U.S. this forced Hitler to declare war on the U.S. in compliance with the terms of their alliance. Almost immediately after the U.S. entered the war your great leader Joseph Stalin began crying for the Allies, namely Great Britian and the U.S. to open a second front in Europe to take the pressure off of Russia. He was highly disappointed when we elected to invade Africa rather than Europe. Another thing is how many people did Stalin have killed in the Great Purge because they did not agree with his ideas and policies?

To Danielle, you didn't read my post correctly. I was complementing HER use of the English language. Or simply stating she could be an expat from North America living in Europe. Either way who cares what you think as well. I say, her, because she uses terms like sugar and honey in recent posts. She also uses the word, while instead of whilst, which is the English form (from England as you say) to mention one. Also she never post at a time of day that someone living a normal lifestyle from the German or Further east time zones would normally be up and posting, like 3:00AM EDT which would be Nine o'clock or past in the morning in Eastern Europe... Big time difference you know. That's all. If you don't want to believe there are posers on this site good for you. I never said I disagreed with her point of view.

The problem with taking out a monster that we've made, Stephen, is that you should have a plan for the outcome. The information against an invasion of Iraq was out there, those that sent us into war chose not to listen to it. At the moment we are protecting the Iraqi's from themselves just as we did (and to my knowledge are still doing) in Bosnia. No, we don't want to be here, but because of our actions we have to be here. Is Iraq worth the lives of anymore soldiers (even the stupid ones like me)? Not at all. Is it the actual right thing to stay and fix what we have broken? Of course it is, so as much as I detest the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan I have a job to do and so I must do it.

@rock: I've been in for fourteen years not because I believe in everything that the US government sends it soldiers out to do, but because I believe in my battle buddies. You did eight years? Woohoo. Really, you're a true patriot, thank you for your service. I come from a military family. My father was in the Army for my whole life so being in the Army is all I've ever known. When I was going to join my father told me I was going to hate it because the Army isn't the great place that I thought it was. Turns out he was right. There are many rotten parts of the Army (and judging by your posts I would assume you to be part of that problem that I dislike), but those parts can also be fixed by experienced soldiers who know what right and wrong are teaching the soldiers at the basic/ait and junior NCO levels what right and wrong are and to take pride back in themselves as soldiers and have backbones isntead of just doing what they're told. If there had been real leaders at Abu Ghraib that tragedy never would have happened. If there had been a real leader anywhere in the bush administration, Shinseki NEVER would have been fired. Do you see where I'm going with this? I've stayed in the military this long because I have a strong sense of pride as a soldier and I like working with soldiers. The problems inside the military have to be fixed at the soldier level because it's been too late for the leader level. My only hope is that the soldiers that I've mentored and trained can move up and push out the "old guard". The only problem is many of them get discouraged with the BS that goes on in the military and get out. It's extremely hard to do the right thing when your leadership doesn't and you're expected to follow their example.

I don't support an illegal war machine. I watch the backs of my battle buddies and they watch mine. I support what the Army should be, not merely what politicians and know-nothing civilians think it is. The US likes to meddle in other people's affairs because it serves the interests of certain politicians for the short term. But in the long term it always comes back to bite another generation in the a** and by then the people who caused the problem have washed their hands of the issue and it belongs to someone else to go in and attempt to clean up. To my knowledge, the problems in Iraq and Afghanistan began before 2001 (at which point I was already in the military with my first deployment under my belt) and if not for political meddling prior to 9/11 who is to blame for the war in Iraq?

The man we should have left alone.

Saddam Hussein
Full name Saddam Hussein al-Majid al-Tikriti. AKA 'Great Uncle', AKA 'Lion of Babylon', AKA 'Lion of Iraq', AKA 'Beast of Baghdad'. Saddam translates to 'One Who Confronts'.

Country: Iraq.

Kill tally: Approaching two million, including between 150,000 and 340,000 Iraqi and between 450,000 and 730,000 Iranian combatants killed during the Iran-Iraq War. An estimated 1,000 Kuwaiti nationals killed following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Over 100,000 Kurds killed or "disappeared". No reliable figures for the number of Iraqi dissidents and Shia Muslims killed during Saddam's reign, though estimates put the figure between 60,000 and 150,000. (Mass graves discovered following the US occupation of Iraq in 2003 suggest that the total combined figure for Kurds, Shias and dissidents killed could be as high as 300,000).

And are we going to go and take ALL of the evil dictators throughout the world, Tiger? Are you going to come and join the military so you can help out, or are you gonna sit back and play high and mighty?

Without the Russians sacrificing millions of lives fighting the Nazis, it's a safe bet that Germany wouldn't have fallen. They would have had atomic weapons as soon as we did, and the jet fighters they were perfecting, would have soon dominated the skies over Europe. I'm American(my grandfather fought in WW2), but I'm not arrogant enough to think that the US holds most of the responsibility for winning WW2. Our corporat barons(including Bush's grandfather) made money of selling supplies to the Germans before we officially entered the war, so you can argue that we helped Germany.

There were no Taliban or Al queda freely operating in Iraq before we invaded. Saddam didn't let anybody who was a threat to his rule, have a base there. He also didn't want to harbor known enemies of the US, as he knew we'd invade at the drop of a hat to strike.

Saddam wasn't anywhere near an "Islamist" ruler, Sharia law wasn't prevalent and he was more secular than a religious ruler. The true die hard fundamentalists in the M.E. despised him for this and even put a death warrant out on him. He was one of the most pro Western leaders in the area and was more about $$ than ruling by the Koran.

It's pathetic that some of you still believe that Iraq(Saddam) was somehow responsible for 9/11 or fomenting religious Jihad style terrorism. You are talking out your bungholes.

We had just as much reason(or more) to invade or declare war in the Saudis for their part in 9/11(funding and Saudi hijackers). Yet Bush/Cheney didn't go rushing in to invade the country of their Saudi business partnersT Saudi royal family are tight with the Bush family).

Without the Russians sacrificing millions of lives fighting the Nazis, it's a safe bet that Germany wouldn't have fallen. They would have had atomic weapons as soon as we did, and the jet fighters they were perfecting, would have soon dominated the skies over Europe. I'm American(my grandfather fought in WW2), but I'm not arrogant enough to think that the US holds most of the responsibility for winning WW2. Our corporat barons(including Bush's grandfather) made money of selling supplies to the Germans before we officially entered the war, so you can argue that we helped Germany.

There were no Taliban or Al queda freely operating in Iraq before we invaded. Saddam didn't let anybody who was a threat to his rule, have a base there. He also didn't want to harbor known enemies of the US, as he knew we'd invade at the drop of a hat to strike.

Saddam wasn't anywhere near an "Islamist" ruler, Sharia law wasn't prevalent and he was more secular than a religious ruler. The true die hard fundamentalists in the M.E. despised him for this and even put a death warrant out on him. He was one of the most pro Western leaders in the area and was more about $$ than ruling by the Koran.

It's pathetic that some of you still believe that Iraq(Saddam) was somehow responsible for 9/11 or fomenting religious Jihad style terrorism. You are talking out your bungholes.

We had just as much reason(or more) to invade or declare war in the Saudis for their part in 9/11(funding and Saudi hijackers). Yet Bush/Cheney didn't go rushing in to invade the country of their Saudi business partners(The Saudi royal family are tight with the Bush family).

I am low and unworthy. But someone mentioned the Iraq death toll since Saddam. So I thought it fair to mention his death toll. I'm afraid I wouldn't be to helpful in a battle situation at the moment but there re thousands of men who have volunteered that believe in what they are doing. Ah, but too few seem to care.

Tiger: And guess who backed the Iran/Iraq war? The US.

As much as we backed Iraq, we still had the gall(corporate capitalism) to sell arms to Iran(Ollie North).

The lives lost in the Iran/Iraq war can also be partially attributed to our involvement, as well as Saddams gassing of the Kurd in the 80's.

The US knew about Saddam's dictator actions(gassings) LONG before we decide to use it as a justification for removing him. We gave him a pass, until he didn't cooperate with us anymore.

I really wish someone would do an honest poll of all of the active duty soldiers who believe the war in Iraq is right. Because, other than officers and senior enlisted persons (who have appearances to keep up) I have only met a handful. Behind closed doors officers and senior enlisted will tell me that the war in Iraq was and is BS but they can't say it anywhere else because their careers are dependent on presenting the appearance that whatever the Army does is correct. That isn't leadership. That's yes man-ship, and that's what got us here in the first place.

Like I said, yes Saddam was evil, but who are we to go to other nations and change it for them? If we do it for one then we must do it for all, correct? Or is there a certain criteria that must be met for us to commit the lives of our soldiers? I'm a very caring person, and I have great pride in being a soldier and an American. Many of the actions of Americans and soldiers over the last decade have cast a large shadow on our integrity, however.

Zenfreedom: once again I dont believe you are in the military: name your unit and rank. I dont care if your daddy was in the army; I am the 4th f'ing generation in mt family as a marine, and one of my sons will join too. It means nothing if you are a @!$%#bird. I am positive i did more in my 8 than you will do in your entire life. Point is: you ARE a hypocrite; if you dont believe in US military policy, get OUT of the "army". Senior NCOs and Officers dont talk politics, idiot- most are too smart or too patriotic. You might have lost YOUR integrity; the men i served with never lost their's, so speak for yourself.

zen

If the army is so bad then why have you been in for fourteen years?

Yes, and you, rock, have proved what it is said about marines for as long as I've been in.

@KSte: I've stayed in because it's all I've ever known. I've never lived anywhere for more than 3-5 years at a time and I don't know what it's like to live in one place. But mostly because of the people I've met in the military. All of the best moments in my life have been shared with my friends in the military. They are more than just co-workers, they are my extended family. If my friends are deploying I want to be right there with them (especially if it's a first deployment for them) because I know what it's like and, as a soldier, you always want to go with the people you've trained with. It's really hard to explain to someone who isn't a soldier and has never deployed. I stay in because I have hope the Army can change. If one person who perceives that things are bad can teach three people the right way and those three people teach three more then things can change. I love what the Army can be, I love being a soldier, and I love the soldiers I work and fight with and I want to leave the Army a better place than I found it. Training soldiers is the way to leave your mark on the military, not acquiring medals. You don't always have to agree with your orders to accomplish your mission. Simply because I'm a soldier doesn't mean that I'm a robot and cannot form my own opinions.

Now for you rock, maybe things are different in the marines, I don't know. It doesn't a very high GT score to get in the marines, I do know that. Judging by your posts, you fit that stereotype to a T. It's too bad they don't teach a command of the English language and grammar as part of your training. Politics are very prevalent in the US Army and I seriously doubt the marines are any different. Were you a marine of any consequence you'd probably know this, but I suppose theirs not much politics in cleaning the head. The Army's reputation is built on supposed great leadership and soldiers but the NCO corps is backed by what are called NCOER's Non-Commissioned Officer Evaluation Reports. The Army breeds people to look good even when they don't know sh!t. The Army can't really stop a person from getting promoted to the rank of SSG because those promotions are entirely on the soldiers themselves: PV1-SPC are all automatic promotions. SPC-SGT you do have to attend a board, but there is no Order of Merit List done at most units anymore. Awhile back the Army changed to procedure for determining people to go to the board. Now if you DON'T send a soldier to the board who isn't ready to be an NCO you are supposed to counsel that soldier each month you don't send them as to WHY they aren't going and what YOU are doing to fix that soldier so they are ready for leadership. Well, unfortunately most people are too lazy to do their counselings (many have to be tracked down to make sure the monthly counselings on their soldiers are completed) so they send sub-par and worthless soldiers to the promotion boards and they make it through because most assume "If their unit sent them they must be ready" and that sub-par soldier is now a NCO. Well that sub-par soldier is in charge of other soldiers and the situation continues. Eventually that sub-par SGT is promoted to SSG. From SSG to SFC... do you see where I'm going with this? Those sub-par NCO's only get rated once a year, sometimes by sub-par leadership themselves. Politics plays a part on whether or not your NCOER looks good. I've seen the headshed b***h about NCO's they think are PoS but they give them 1 or 2 block NCOERS because they don't want to deal with the problem of fixing a broken NCO. The further up the chain you go, the more politics play a role in your day to day life. I have a fine ideology: Be true to yourself and take care of your battle buddies. Has it put me at odds with my leadership before? Sure has. Am I still a great NCO who takes care of his soldiers and accomplishes any mission given me? Sure am. Do I play the politics game? Not a chance. If the CSM comes by and asks me my opinions, I give them to him. Have I pissed of some SGM's in my time? Yes, I have. None of that affects my leadership of my soldiers or my committment to my job. Part of being professional is leaving personal beliefs aside to accomplish the goal of the group. My integrity has remained intact my entire career because I've never compromised my principles or the Army Values in the completion of my duties.

In theory the military is a great institution. But as with all facets of American life we suffer from foibles that any civilian corporation suffers. The only difference is that when the military makes a mistake it could cost someone their life.

The United States is not going anywhere. We wil still have at least 50,000 Soldiers in and around Iraq for training, reaction force, logistical support, etc for at least another year. What is more alarming that as soon as the last heavy brigades leave theater that this administration will attempt to play it as a "political victory"...? Puzzled since then Sen Obama did not want the US to enter into Iraq? I guess he is hoping for short term memory loss.

I did several tours in Iraq. If I had my way, I would give the entire country or at least the northern oilfields to the Kurds. They dislike Iranian involvement, they enjoy the US, and they do not want any foreign elements (aka insurgents) causing trouble. They want to make money and they want to make Iraq a modern Middle Eastern country not a Sharia Law obeying Islamic Republic that many Shia would want.

Sunni = supported by Syria and Saudi Arabia

Shia = supported by Iran (who is also funding, arming, and providing support for insurgents who really do want an 'old school mentality' Islamic republic)

Kurds = have no support, being shelled by the Iranian military on a daily basis, Turkey is conducting on-going operations along it's border and uses the excuse of kurdish seperatist to exceed their response, Sunni and Shia elements within the Iraqi government do not want at all cost for the Kurds to maintain or control the vital Kirkuk and Mosul oilfields because it would bring immediate cash to the Kurds and provide a base of economic power.

Until these people can get past their religious differences then we will be attached to Iraq for a long time coming. We still have troops in Germany and Korea and we are not going anywhere.

That is exactly the truth. And as can be seen in America, getting passed religious differences is EXTREMELY hard to do.

HOW ABOUT ALL OF YOU READING (and comprehending) my post at#1.57.

If you want to Talk about this place (Afghanistan) go read my posts on Newsvine about that Topic.

And

DavePat

YOU have NOTHING Valid to Say.

1. As you previously posted you are at Iraq as an Advisor to the Iraqis Security Forces (I copied and saved your posts).

2. AND YOU FAILED, they are NOT Ready (according to the article) for the US Military to leave. Or is it that you are milking "Uncle Sugar" (US Taxpayers) for job security like the US Contractors. This is what you (US Taxpayers) get when you have US Civilians, Political Appointees and Interns like DavePat (a previous no nothing, O- nothing, Lieutenant).

This mission was previously what the US Special Warfare did, Train Indigenous Forces (our motivation so we can leave). What we still do here at Afghanistan with the US Contractors (Lobbyists at Congress) demanding to do our job, just like Iraq again.

And during the Iran Iraq Wars, 1980s, US Military Training Teams from Germany were sent to Iraq along with POMCUS Stocks from Germany. And those weapons, etc. sold to Iran were from FMS (Foreign Military Sales) to Iranians to overthrown the Fundamentalist Islamic (newly formed, 1979) Iran.

Hint: My US Military Officer involvement with the "Middle East" since the 1980s. So where were you during all of this, maybe still sh1tting yellow in your diapers.

We are too busy being involved to be sitting comfortably at home as non participants writing History. --david-475776

Zen, once again you are full of crap. Someone else cannot lose your integrity for you; you did that on your own. It is obvious you are a pogue of some sort. Any true combat doggie wouldn't talk @!$%# about marines. I was on many JTFs, and whether it was with Rangers, Seals or CIA, it was all mutual respect. Quit milking the army you are a hypocrite first class.

Maybe Zen has a desk job and is frustrated. There's a name for that but I don't know what it is.

To American Lobo, At least you make a rational argument without all the ranting and raving and boasting about your credentials. My point is only that there were casualties before the war started and there are service men there who believe in what they're doing. As for war, I am not a fan! There are a lot of people on here that claim to be one thing or another when they obviously are not. Sometimes it brings out the defensive nature in some of us.

Tiger's the man

You are rude and I never said you disagreed with Gia's opinion.

"I live in Europe and know many, highly intelligent people who could never use the colloquial style English in which you speak . Very few Brits, South Africans, Australians, you name them, would ever use some of the words you use in text. Not to mention the lack of American history in Europe. Yes you are highly educated beyond the norm."

Gia is an average person in Europe, it is rude to say the rest of the other people cannot use their own language well.

As for who cares what I have to say - who cares what you have to say. Who made you the judge of who could use the English language? The fact that you think you can make such statements does mean your arrogant.

Give a compliment where a compliment is due, but do not discredit a load of other people in the process. Its just tasteless.

Danielle, my comment may have been condescending to Gia but it was not insulting to anyone else. The term colloquial does not mean bad language. It means words or language used by people from a certain place or area. I was saying that absolutely no one that I know from Europe knows all the slang words and phrases that Gia knows, unless they have spent many years elsewhere. Sorry that is true. Also many English words are spelled differently in Europe which is why a lot of people come on here telling others to learn how to spell before they post. In Europe it's simply how the words are spelled in some cases. Perhaps I was rude but I was trying to find out from her, how she learned to speak the English language in this manner without studying North American colloquialisms intensely if she indeed was born, raised, schooled and still living in Eastern Europe. Also very little American history is taught in European schools and she knows quite a bit about it. Maybe she is also a history Major. I care because she is drawing a line between us and them..."your military"...so on and so forth. I am also not aware of any Eastern European Countries that have not withdrawn all their troops. That I could be wrong about, Czech Republic had the most there at 1400 and I'm sure they have all been withdrawn but she says her country has troops there. (and one more time, unless you study American English, you would not use the word, WHILE)

I know what colloquial means - again your being arrogant and rude again. This is not a misunderstanding on my part and I do not need the English language explained to me.

I also again will state that there is nothing special about her English, all her phrases are used widely within Europe. Everyone speaks to her level of English and that is true. I live within Europe in an English speaking jurisdiction. I am going to say I have more knowledge in this area than you. To say they cannot IS an insult. How do you believe they actually speak!?

I also know english and amercian words can be spelt differently, it is common knowledge.

"While" is a common word in use where I am from, I have never known it to be American.

OK, you are the expert. I give up, except for one or two points. I live in Germany and know many people who live in English speaking jurisdictions as you say (that in itself is a very European way of saying it) and the only people who speak with such ease as Gia are Americans and Canadians. I work with people very fluent in English, daily. Dutch, German's, Scandinavian's, I have friends who have married Americans and Brits as well. My knowledge of communicating throughout Eastern Europe is not vast, but I've been there many times. Once I had a tour guide in Prague who spoke such perfect English with slang and everything that I couldn't believe it. He was talking French to a couple and afterwords I complemented him on his English and he said, it should be good I'm from Wisconsin.

Danielle, by the way, where are these English speaking jurisdictions made up of Europeans? The only ones I know of are near International Schools and comprise of Brits, Americans, Canadians and all other people from the world who speak English to communicate. There are some people of great wealth and knowledge but I guarantee you when they speak English you can tell they are not. Just from how they formulate a sentence structure is different. As is why when I speak or write Deutsch the first thing most Germans ask me is Where are you from! and I have been doing so for many years.

You don't impress me rock. Being on the same FOB, COB, COP, or whathaveyou doesn't mean you worked with any of those elements. If that's the case then everyone would have experience working with them. You aren't anyone that I have to justify myself to. I never said that I had lost my integrity. I'm proud of everything I've ever done in the military and don't regret any of my actions.

Maybe you've been sheltered in your marine lifestyle, but all the services do is talk smack about each other. It's a bit of bonding that anyone who's actually been in the military would know about. At any rate if you were actually in the marines, thank you for your service I'm sure you left an indelible mark upon the corps.

Come on Tiger your starting to drift from the original point.

"and the only people who speak with such ease as Gia are Americans and Canadians" made me laugh. What about the British? ......

Give it up

Oh and please for the love of god - do not generalise Europe.

It is made up from many diffrent countries, with different cultures, histories, languages. I absolutely hate it when Americans refer to the whole are as Europe and generalise. It actually bugs a lot of people.

It's like saying Mexicans, Canadians & Americans are the same.

I'm beginning to think your Gia...lol

I'm the last person who would generalize Europeans, I don't see how you make that out of what I said. As for the American and Canadian thing, I was referring to American slang. Most Brits I know wouldn't say "Let me tell you something Sugar" Or "You got the wrong Idea Hun" They would giggle at me for saying it and my best friends are Brits and I will say, at risk of being accused of something else, they have the best sense of humor of any people in the world.

I see you are a Brit by how you spell Generalize. Or are you European and spell it that way? Or does you individual culture or history or the way you learn the English Language in your country determine how you spell it. Or did you spell it wrong?

What was the general point?

Your a quirky one arn't you?

& far too charming. Hmm. Perhaps you are the one that is British?

I love you too!

I didnt expect our conversation to turn into a love in. Irregardless... I have sent you a friend request.

: )

I saw this coming about ten posts back...

and I'm sorry but having traveled extensively AND worked with many, many europeans in the USA: europeans and especially the Brits stereotype the United States nonstop. It is like an obsession, a levelling tendency for them.

The oil from Iraq has historically gone to our allies in Europe and Japan and elsewhere in the region. So we are not in it for oil for the USA, once again Americans have been dieing to bail out Europe's ungreatfull "posterior"

You are correct, way to many have died and equally bad are the thousands that have been wounded. That said, WE ARE NOT GETTING OIL OR ANY COMPENSATION, AT LEAST WE THE GOVERNMENT/PEOPLE.

I am sure our politicians are getting well compensated though.

Mark, you have no idea how the world oil markets work, do you? It doesn't matter where the oil goes as long as it's bought on the open market. And your post was all emotion with no thought behind it. Yep, those europeans are loving every drop of cheap fuel, not.

again... we destabalized Iraq. a country that was being controlled by saddam a country that had severe ethnic problems sunnis shia dont like each other. WE removed saddam and put this country back into a hell. it is our problem to fix it. not to say OH dear they dont like each other lets leave. It was a KNOWN fact when we invaded they didnt like each other. BUSH the moron however didnt because he is a moron. as for oil, yeah Saddam was threatening to trade oil under the EURO which would tank the dollar...... bush is a moron. and so are all the cows that dont get it.

lol...I also have a degree in history/great power politics...and Saddam invaded several of his neighbors, Gia...how can that be denied? btw- I am left of center, and have no use for republicans OR democrats- it is one and the same to me: they tax and spend it on themselves instead of what is good for the citizens of the USA, so get off of your "Bush" horse. I was in the marines for the first war, I remember all the events leading up to it. And I don't care about your arguements: Saddam was a criminal, yes there are other criminals in power, but that is the one we went after...also: I am totally in favor of getting out of all countries militarily, and becoming a trading nation only. That includes the elimination of all the hundreds of billions in aide to countries around the world. America for americans, and before you say that is rascist: Ive traveled enough to know that every other country in the world (except for Canada) is far more xenophobic than the United States.

*

Rock, you rock. Most people do not understand that we should just be a trading nation like we were before WWI. I too was in the military before getting my degrees, U.S. Navy. There are criminals ruling many of the worlds nations. it is not our business to free them from this tyranny. Our ancestors rose up and freed themselves from tyranny. Let the rest of the world do the same.

Rock is correct in his statement that the rest of the world is just as xenophobic as the U.S. if not more so. Look at the Islamic nations around the globe. No prosilytizing of other religions or you will be stoned to death or beheaded. It is moronic for us to be invloved in these areas. We are only there because those within power here in this country do so for their own moneyed interests and for power.

BSPURLOC your are the Mother of all cows. What a total fool you are. Clearly you cant read. The USA or the West did not put Iraq into hell. Their people have been in hell for decades. mass mudersd, etc, etc, etc,...

However, they are better off now (according to them) they have ever been. None the less, before their condition ruins ours completyely, we need to take care of our people.

That needs to be our first concern. Iraqs first concern needs to be taking ccre of theirs. Really, what country in the world will take care of the USA? Give us trillion of dollars, etc, etc??? Not one and certainly not one Muslim country.

Things change BS, and our situation NOW is that we cannot afford to spend any more. Maybe Iraq could get some money from Iran, Saudi< Egypt, Turkey, Russia, France, etc, etc.

If they want our forces, let them pay for them. Our cost plus a profit, plus a fund for the families of our dead, plus a fund for the wounded. Won't happen and we should leave if it does not.

One problem though, our government is to stupid to ask for compensation and Iraq that currently has large oil revenues has offered NOTHING.

Chevs: Doesn't it stand to reason, that because we weren't receiving oil at good prices from Saddam/Iraq, it was one reason why our government wanted to overthrow him and install a puppet government that will give us what we want?

Just because we weren't receiving lots of oil from Iraq(and still aren't), doesn't mean that it isn't on our agenda for the future.

You have to think 5 or 10 steps ahead. Obviously our government can't just seize the oil for ourselves, if they don't want us to appear as imperialists who steal resources. We'd lose many of our allies if we blatantly took what we wanted.

Thanks Gary-

Yeah, I know what you mean.

I would stay though if it were up to me, I kind of feel if your going to do something, do something properly. It would be a shame to pull out early and everything to revert back to a situation the Iraqi army could not handle. I would hate to think of the waste of money and lives.

The country is worst off than when we went in and we've already spent a trillion dollars and gave our soldiers lives. There's NO reason to stay one more minute.

Everybody seems to think we are just going to pull all our troops out and come home? GET REAL, the United States is never going to leave Iraq! Look at Germany, we are still there more than 50 years after WW11. Say all you want about bringing our troops home, but to show the sheep what's really going on, think about this... What country is between Afgan. and Iraq? That's right Iran, Our REAL objective! When was the last time anyone has heard the Bin Laden name? The only reason we are in Afgan. is the opium, and now the lithium deposits. Get used to our young men and women being killed in these countries, The Corporation of the United States of America has too many $$$$ reasons for war. Do we still have American troops guarding the poppy fields? I think so!

David65- I can picture you now in your tie dye shirt and dreadlocks sitting around listening to Phish in your Seattle one room apartment. "You said the only reason we are in Afganistan is for the opium and lithium???" You really are out there aren't you? I heard your village is calling, they want their idiot back.

No, that was the village calling out directly to you, only someone is too big of an idiot to realize that and answer back... and just where are you living that you think is so superior, don't knock Seattle.

(Posted by: david65-1922213 Everybody seems to think we are just going to pull all our troops out and come home? GET REAL, the United States is never going to leave Iraq! Look at Germany, we are still there more than 50 years after WW11)

Just like the French Indian war...

We (the American people) are not responsible for all de-stabilized countries in the world. It was a terrible untruthful decision to invade Iraq, and mistake to stay as long as we have. Our continued presence in a region of the world that we do not even now begin to comprehend has no benefit to either us or them. Only benefit may be to the financial powers that have profited from the conflict, be they American, Middle Eastern, or other, corporate or individual. There are those that do not pay for this conflict in money or blood, only profit and see their personal power strengthened through the loss of middle class males, which make up the majority of those lives lost or permanently disabled. This is not a conspiracy theory, just reality. Follow the money, especially the unaccounted for billions. The path will lead you through ghastly unbelievable horror, but the destination should not surprise you.

I am an American, every generation of my family has military service, and I support our troops because they are doing what they are requested to do as soldiers. But I cannot support the leadership that makes requests that only result in the leaders gain and is ignorant of the pain and loss price paid for their gain.

It is time to bring our military back within our borders, or based within those nations that we have mutual friendship with. Hopefully the next campaign conflict will be better thought out and understood then those of the past 50 years. Not move into other countries based on potential "spoils" regardless of our own protection or the benefit to the ordinary American citizen.

GovHatr- Your name says it all. Go live somewhere else and then complain about the US govt.

we shouldn't have ever been there all about filling bush and cheney's pockets whatever happens,happens.bush said they would pay the bill all these billions down the tubes ten years latter they can't take care of themselves.its all the money being thrown around to the big wigs.

I dont agree with method of the war in Iraq, nothing was worth the loss of American life for ungrateful peoples elsewhere, like Gia. But: Saddam was a criminal who claimed he had WMDs. He told the whole world. He also used chemical weapons against his own people and his neighbors. He invaded several countries. Long story short: he f'd up, and there would have been no peace until he was gone. Is anybody really crying for that dynasty of torturers, murderers and rapists? I feel only for the young men of the USA who thought they were dying for a better life for those Iraqis.

mike44-2107090

What an interesting notion, so original and thought provoking, did you come up with that one all by yourself? By the way, mom says ya have to get off the computer NOW!

I like it. It's a good one.

Vernon,

It is the American politician who has bankrupted Social Security. That alone should be grounds for removal from office.

and then hung for good measure too!

First specious argument: Social Security is not broke and won't be paying more in benefits than it takes in until 2035 or so, 15 years after this particular general wants us to leave.

Second specious argument: High Treason? Even if specious argument #1 was true, this would not be treason, just stupidity.

Third specious argument: Shot? Hung? Are you seriously threatening violence against a member of the Congress of the United States? If you are, that's a serious crime.

If you had elected John McCain, a wonderfully little man who verbally abuses his wife, we'd be there for 100 years...or so he said.

The Liberal argument, Cathleen G, was that we never should have gone to Iraq in the first place. The Bush administration LIED to the American people, to the United Nations and to the world about the level of threat posed by Saddam Hussein and the presence of weapons of mass destruction. And yet, you conservatives wanted more of the same in Mr McCain. This doesn't even begin to address the horror of having Sarah Palin a heartbeat away from control of the most powerful military in the world.

Congress ONLY hangs (lynches) their own when it's beneficial for $$$ and political gain!!! Look how years later they're hanging Rangel "from the Highest Tree" with their holy mighty morals & ethnics. It's very funny but extremely disheartening that these same people who accuse are guilty of the same or worse. There's Not One that's Not Dirty somehow, from Our Current Pres on down. Ethnics on the Floor of Congress are definitely an opposing concept that always gets voted down!!!! :-)

Perhaps it is time to go back and READ the constitution. High Treason doesn't fit. Neither does Social Security being broke.

The real stupidity is that we keep electing the same type of politicians: Ones that serve their own self interests and not the interests of the people they are supposed to represent. So when we call them stupid we really should remember who voted to put/keep them there.

Last time I checked, being stupid is not a crime so you are free to go.

Vernon Shiloh-
Social Security has nothing to do with the war in Iraq. As for standing up politicians and shooting them over a comment like that....do you have a brain?

Nobody believes a corrupt government is a good one, but your ideas are so farfetched and so FAR from any kind of reality that you need to go educate yourself, and I mean right now. The only people who talked about standing up other people and shooting them for no other reason then being a power Demagogue, here is a list of some:

Stalin and Hitler. Not a single of of our elected representatives is anything like those 2 names I listed. Sit down and hush.

Cheers Vernon. You said it.

USBEAR: trying to use intimidation against Vernon? I fully agree with what he said: that they (congress) should be TRIED in a court of law and then get capital punishment if they are found guilty of stealing from the SS fund. Which they did. Whch congressman do YOU work for? Intimidation and threats are always the tools of dictators and oppressors; obviously "usbear" that is the category of politician YOU identify with...

Francisco: that is not true: several republics have been started, or tyrannical governments ended, by the ability of the people to find the abusers guilty and punish them. This includes the French revolution and the Russian revolution, the Mexican revolution and the uprisings by Bolivar in south America. The idea that a politician is sacrosanct for his crimes is PUTRID. Just read the beginning of the declaration of independance, still the model for free peoples everywhere...

. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

When facts are presented 99.9% of liberal/progressive arguments fail.

89.9% of all statistics are made up on the spot.......

Wow, what a incredible static ChevsMark! I'm sure you have done extensive research on this claim, please share your finding. Thank you, Paul

And Cathleen G you want us there another 10 years? May I ask why and to what end?

Thank you, Paul

I've no doubt some want us there.

The question is do we want to be there and how long can we afford to prop up the Iraqi "government"?

It is now 5 months after the last Iraqi election and they have yet to form a government. The bombs are going off daily, and everybody knows the real fun will begin after the bulk of our troops have departed.

Is this another example of the success of "the surge"?

Tell me about all the WMD in Iraq again, please.

Then why did they force bush to sign the surrender document in Dec 2008??

The what?

Tell me about all the WMD in Iraq again, please.

Will be glad too dman-353357

http://www.rightwingnews.com/quotes/demsonwmds.php

http://www.nysun.com/foreign/iraqs-wmd-secreted-in-syria-sada-says/26514/

Tired old stories. Not even the Bush administration was claiming that the WMD had all been shipped to Syria.

As to the aptly named "Right Wing News", yes, there were Democrats uttering foolish statements. That is not proof of anything, except that stupidity is a bipartisan quality. But in 2002, the U.N. inspectors were not finding a damned thing. Yet at every turn the Bush Administration were issuing dark hints of immanent threats, which, of course, never materialized.

So, I repeat, nothing found, and as to unsubstantiated reports of weapons being secretly moved, show me where they are today.

Tired old stories

http://www.nysun.com/foreign/iraqs-wmd-secreted-in-syria-sada-says/26514/

why yes, that's like believing a drug dealer, would remove valuable evidence before the police come with the search warrant. Had he been foretold of their interest, in the content of his floor safe the previous evening.

WHO WOULD LISTEN TO SUCH NONSENSE.

dman-353357

During the summer of 2008, Iraq sold 550+Tons of yellowcake to Canada. The removal of 550 metric tons of "yellowcake" — the seed material for higher-grade nuclear enrichment — was a significant step toward closing the books on Saddam's nuclear legacy. see http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25546334/

Saddam was killing thousands of Kirds and Shi'ites with 'Nerve Agents', supplied by the CIA, French, Germans, and UK. Al-Majid (Chemical Ali) faces three previous death sentences for atrocities committed during Saddam's rule — particularly government campaigns against Shiites and Kurds in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

The court later issued separate death sentences for his role in the 1991 suppression of a Shiite uprising and for a 1999 crackdown that sought to quell a Shiite backlash to the slaying of Grand Ayatollah Mohammed al-Sadr.

The USA & UK know Sadam had WMD, becasue they SUPPLIED it to him. Ha! Ha!

ChevsMark

Please enlighten us again with all of Bush's Republick'on/Conservative "facts"?

The fact still remains that any form of WMD in Iraq was NOT A THREAT to the United States at the time we invaded. Was there potential that at some time in the future whatever Saddam had could become a threat? Of course. But there is potential for ANY country to become a threat IN THE FUTURE to make and use WMD's against us. The UN inspectors could find no evidence that there was any threat to us at the time we invaded. Most of the other countries of the world agreed that we should have give the UN inspectors more time and opportunity to search for WMD's before Bush/Cheney decided to LIE to us about thier existance, and then insisting that we had the right to invade Iraq unilaterally. We can speculate all we want to about what would or would not have happened, what will or what will not happen in the future as a result of the invasion. The fact remains that there was NO threat to us at the time we went in, and now we have many people killed both our military and innocent Iraqi citizens. Our country is now financially broke largely due to this usless war. Our decision NOW, whether to stay or go, must be made by the facts and accurate information we have NOW. This is a war that never should have been in the first place, we need to cut our losses-mostly the lives of our military; but also the financial losses that we cannot afford to continue. We will never fight or bomb people into keeping the peace. They must want it for themselves and be willing to fight thier own wars. When we wanted out freedom from England in 1776, we fought for it ourselves to give our people the freedom we wanted. The rest of the world must do the same.

Saddam didn't need to be a threat. Under the Bush security doctrine of 2001, (whether you agree with it or not) the Bush government clearly said he would go after terrorists and those who aided them. This was the major speach of that decade. If foreign governments failed to believe him...that is their problem. I am not even a republican, just a clear thinking independant who is also a nationalist. Here is the link to the speach: http://www.famousquotes.me.uk/speeches/George_W_Bush/

and here is the exact doctrine: "The search is underway for those who are behind these evil acts. I've directed the full resources of our intelligence and law enforcement communities to find those responsible and to bring them to justice. We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbour them"

And Cathleen G you want us there another 10 years? May I ask why and to what end

Well, ideally, I'd like to see a world with no wars. However, realistically, pulling out of a war (that we started) before a legitimate government is ready to take over would be irresponsible. (Even if it doesn't fit in with a pre-determined time line.) Obama should take his own advice to "not worry about getting re-elected" and "just do what is right."

Together we must also confront the new hazards of chemical and biological weapons, and the outlaw states, terrorists and organized criminals seeking to acquire them. Saddam Hussein has spent the better part of this decade, and much of his nation's wealth, not on providing for the Iraqi people, but on developing nuclear, chemical and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. The United Nations weapons inspectors have done a truly remarkable job, finding and destroying more of Iraq's arsenal than was destroyed during the entire gulf war. Now, Saddam Hussein wants to stop them from completing their mission. I know I speak for everyone in this chamber, Republicans and Democrats, when I say to Saddam Hussein, "You cannot defy the will of the world", and when I say to him, "You have used weapons of mass destruction before; we are determined to deny you the capacity to use them again. - President Clinton's State of the Union Address, 1998.

The President Clinton State of the Union Address, 1998, first used the term WMD. Demanded the Congressionally Funded Law (H.R.4655) to Overthrow the Iraqis President and Iraqis Parlimentary (Democratic) Government (aka "Regime Change" Act (Law)) to Liberate the Iraqis People (aka Iraqis Liberation Act (Law)). After President Saddam Hussein apprehended the US Funded thousands of assasins and insurgents and executed them (meaning H.R.4655 failed), Operation Desert Fox, December 1998 was conducted (bombing of Baghdad with aircraft from Ramstein Air Force Base and Zweibruken Air Force Base and USN cruise missile attacks, with US Military Special Warfare conducting Target Damage Assessment). When this all failed US Congress pre 9/11 2001 fully funded direct US Military Actions (Invasion of Iraq) to "Overthrow the Iraqis President and Iraqis Parliamentary Government to Liberate the Iraqis People" (Congressional Record).

Again please read my post at #1.57.

During the summer of 2008, Iraq sold 550+Tons of yellowcake to Canada. The removal of 550 metric tons of "yellowcake" — the seed material for higher-grade nuclear enrichment — was a significant step toward closing the books on Saddam's nuclear legacy. see http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25546334/

AC Robertson - Yes, I've seen stories about this subject and debated it before. First off, as the story you reference mentions, this yellow cake uranium had been sitting in a bombed out, former nuclear site since at least 1991. It was a remnant of Saddams derailed nuclear program. So in 2003, this material, which is only partially refined Uranium ore, had been sitting in rusty storage drums for over a decade.

Your story goes on to say that this yellow cake uranium was not sufficently potent to even be used in a dirty bomb.

To summarize, this material was old, it was not immediately useful in constructing anything except a hazardous waste site. Saddam had not done anything with it in 12 years.

So how did this yellow cake uranium constitute a cause for war? What immanent threat, did it represent?

...come on, be serious.

why yes, that's like believing a drug dealer, would remove valuable evidence before the police come with the search warrant. Had he been foretold of their interest, in the content of his floor safe the previous evening.

WHO WOULD LISTEN TO SUCH NONSENSE.

I guess you would.

Let me summarize. One person, a former official of a criminal regime claims that Saddam spirited large quantities of chemical weapons into neighboring Syria. None of these weapons have ever since been seen, used or attested to and the inspectors and our intelligence never suspected a thing. Nor has even the Bush administration, desperate for some validation of the prewar "intelligence" ever claim that this smuggling occurred.

Yet, to you this seems like creditable proof that the weapons existed.

I'm guessing that you're still leaving milk & cookies out for Santa every XMass Eve.

Hey, maybe this year will be the year.

Saddam didn't need to be a threat. Under the Bush security doctrine of 2001, (whether you agree with it or not) the Bush government clearly said he would go after terrorists and those who aided them.

Rock - Sorry, I did not notice this post earlier or I would have responded. I can understand the Bush doctrine, but agree with it or not, I fail to see how it applied to Saddam Hussein, as he was not involved with either the 9/11 attacks or Al Qaeda.

Even in 2002, the CIA was not claiming he was involved in any way. Dick Cheney did make some murky claims that one of the 9/11 terrorists, one Mohamed Attar, met with agents of the Iraqi government in Vienna. But even at the time he spoke, these claims had been discredited by our own and foreign intelligence agencies. In other words, it was a lie.

So... as a "clear thinking independent", how does the passage of the Bush speech you supplied (and which I remember), apply to Saddam Hussein?

"The search is underway for those who are behind these evil acts. I've directed the full resources of our intelligence and law enforcement communities to find those responsible and to bring them to justice. We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbour them"

As for those that harbour them, we still not held the many wealthy Saudis who fund many of these groups and the madrassas that 'teach' them. Nor the many wealthy Persian Gulf residents that do the same. Would this be because they supply petroleum to much of the world?

I liked when Sadaam's head fell off when he was hung. That was neat. He killed nearly a million people...one less WMD around.

The people in charge of the war in Iraq cannot account for billions of dollars in cash. Of course we should give them more money!!!

The huge alien plant of War Machine keeps screaming: FEED ME!!!!

He killed nearly a million people...one less WMD around.

We've killed, maimed and displaced far more than that, as well as sent thousands of our own citizens to their deaths to do it.

Go, us.

↑

Are you a muslim?

I doubt he is, but you can be sure he's not some bandwagon riding buffoon who got us mired in Iraq in the first place. Can you make the same claim?

Max^108 - The huge alien plant of War Machine keeps screaming: FEED ME!!!!

With that "huge alien plant of War Machine" being made up of millions of US Civilians (Jobs). Current ratio one US Military supported directly and indirectly by 11 US Civilians.

IanS - I do see your point, and we have few viable options now with regard to Iraq. We cannot ignore it because of its strategic importance. We cannot utterly control it; we have not the resources. Our best present option is probably to maintain a higher level of troop commitments than we had planned, for another ten years.

But, I would say, that in 2003, other options were available. Saddam Hussein, horrible person that he was, was reasonably under control. Continued monitoring, under threat of force was then our best plan of action. In removing him from power, we lit a fire in that country which we will have difficulty putting out.

Now we are chained to Iraq, and to Afghanistan, two of the most troubled and violent nations in the world.

It is hard to believe, but in 2002, some conservative geniuses were loudly saying that after Iraq, Iran was next on our list.

Too bad there are no "do overs" in the real world.

It will take another 10 yrs to develop Iraq's standing army. The reason; after dismantling it during the invasion most of the officers were Bathists party members. Now they need for Iraq's army to develop a new command structure that involves 3 different types of nationalities in order to have a stable national defense and developing a command takes a long time for members to work their way through the ranks and filter out those that are incompetent soldiers.

I thought liberals were all about ethnic diversity, well if this can be achieve then this could be one of the greatest successes of our military because we would have created a Republic in the dead center of the Middle East that offers this area a refuge from the division among the Middle East.

...well if this can be achieve then this could be one of the greatest successes of our military

When pigs have wings.

Well, by 2020, we would have been there for what, 17 years? That means that the people that were born when we first arrived will have grown with the US around. Fact is, most country take overs (err assistance) take at least a generation or two. You need to purge the old thoughts and ways, and the only real way to do that is to raise an entire population. We need to be there, teaching their children, building their infrastructure. Only then can we truly say its safe to withdrawal. And I don't think we would actually need a whole lot of military to do this. Bring in the educators, the intellectual, the business minded people. Accept the fact that this is not a short term project.

We are so pussy foot around the subject. "oh don't influence them, just train them to fight for themselves". Sorry guys, its just not going to work. We need total retooling, and that's more then just military proficiency. But no politician would have the balls to say that.

We started this mess, the right thing is to fix it.

Who's "we"? Don't confuse the gov'mint with "us".

Our "gov'mint" was elected by "us", and is a representation of "us". sometimes our government doesn't do what we want, but that's the risk in having a democratic government that is based on votes. And when you lose, the appropriate thing is to stand behind the government, regardless. Even when the election was won by a "hanging chad"

The US has become full of selfish spoiled brats.

"It is hard to believe, but in 2002, some conservative geniuses were loudly saying that after Iraq, Iran was next on our list.

Too bad there are no "do overs" in the real world."

This is still in play and will be for longer than any of us might like. Looking at this from the longer term, in 2003 we flanked Iran (who wants to be the regional hegemon) by positioning materiel and facilities that would take a year or longer to do so should we need to in the future.

On counterpoint, we have also placed ourselves smack in the middle of the Sunni-Shi'a schism, two unreconcilable(?) forces in a religion that are clamoring for control of an emerging Caliphate... a religious/political title in a transnational Islamic "state" that we called the Ottoman Empire. Woodrow Wilson (and the League of Nations) saw fit to eliminate this title and the person who held it as the transnational state collapsed and was carved up by the West at the end of WWI.

Not long after, we placed the Saudis in control of Arabia, after they mercilessly evicted the Shi'a in the region via genocide. They were inconveniently living on top of the oil in the eastern regions of the Arabian peninsula.

Both ancient and modern conflicts exist in this region, where a major portion of the world's energy reserves exist.

These conflicts need to be worked out and we need to evolve to alternative forms of energy.

This is still in play and will be for longer than any of us might like. Looking at this from the longer term, in 2003 we flanked Iran (who wants to be the regional hegemon) by positioning materiel and facilities that would take a year or longer to do so should we need to in the future.

I would say rather that we removed the one force in the region capable of counter-balancing Iran, which had little input in the Arab Israeli conflict. Now, with their arch enemy Saddam gone, they are a major (or the major) player in this region.

If, as nate 007 hopes, a strong, stable democratic state evolves in Iraq, it may provide just that type of counter-balance to Iran. But frankly, I don't see that happening, and neither does Iraq's top general, at least not without 10 more years of our involvement.

and if not that..maybe their desserts!

I would like to ask, Why is Bush and Cheney not being held accountable for War Crimes!

Because Presidents (and Vice Presidents) are not held accountable for their bad decisions, especially when these decisions were authorized by Congress. If Bush had committed U.S. troops to Iraq without Congressional approval, or attempted to keep them there in defiance of a Congressional resolution, you might have some legal grounds on which to impeach him, or to take other legal action.

But Congress passed the war authorization act and even if it was misled into doing so, that makes the war legal. It doesn't make it smart, rational or sane. But it is legal.

It made something legal, but it wasn't war, unless you'd care to point out when, how and where the Congress of the United States declared war on Iraq or on Saddam Husssein. They didn't and they haven't and they won't. It's an ongoing conflict, it's wasted trillions of dollars and, worse, it's wasted the lives and health of thousands of American troops, but until the President requests that Congress declares war and then Congress officially declares war on anyone or any country, it ain't a war.

Yes seeing how ONLY 5 Members of Congress voted against the War Authorization Act which was BEFORE it even hit Bush's Desk for Approval. Paul - How can You just concentrate on the One that You dislike(Bush) while giving a Pass of Good to the 534 that truly started the ball rolling and have made more $$ from it?? OOOHHHH b/c they are DEMS that are saving the World. They Rushed to vote on this Act just like they have rushed to vote or bribe through every major bill for the last 2 yrs. Either Try them all or Try None.

How about a change of pace.........no more war until the two leaders of the disputing countrys

actually face each other and fight to the death? Then the folks in both countries who cannot settle the dispute otherwise IE. the politicians have to face each other and fight to the death.

Winners win the dispute and hundreds of thousands of lives are saved and countries wont have to be rebuilt. It will never happen buts a great idea aye?

It made something legal, but it wasn't war, unless you'd care to point out when, how and where the Congress of the United States declared war on Iraq or on Saddam Husssein.

USBear2009 - True, but so what?

Your point is only one of semantics. Neither the Korean nor the Vietnam wars were ever "declared", but they were authorized by Congress. So too was this ill-fated Iraqi venture and our involvement in Afghanistan.

Some of these conflicts may have been mistakes, others necessary actions by our government, but all were legal under our nation's laws. So talk of trying George W. Bush or Dick Cheney for treason, or some other criminal offense is just that, talk, and idle talk at that.

Don't get me wrong, I was against the Iraq War from the start. I never voted for George W. Bush and my only reason for wishing him health was the thought of Dick Cheney sitting in the Oval Office. But what is done is done, and our nation's decision to invade Iraq, good, bad or indifferent, is now in the history books.

We can debate it. We can castigate the men (and women) responsible for the decision (I do). We cannot change it, and we have no legal grounds on which to bring criminal charges against the idiots who led us into this ruinous war.

I'm sorry to hear that you are addicted to crack. Good luck on kicking that habit. I only hope it's not too late. Clearly, your mind is destroyed but i hope your body still has some use. Here's rooting for you! (* toast)

I also liked when Sadaam's head fell off when he was hung. Although one could argue, it was equally exciting, finding him Cowering in a hole. One less WMD around.

Maybe you've missed out on the last seven years since we disbanded the Iraqi army and didn't bother to read the article either. The civil war that raged through Iraq was because the US disbanded the Iraqi, which was run by the Sunni faction of Iraq, and the Shiite factions than attempted to take power for themselves. The Iraqi army is now headed by a kurd, and it is comprised of kurds, shiite, and sunni muslims. Much like in Bosnia for the last decade, the only thing holding these people back from each other at the moment are the tax dollars we are funneling into the country and the American military presence.

Wrong Zen, the civil war's fire was lit by an insurgency caused by the idiotic Abu Ghraib Reservists and our anti-military media's non stop coverage of the "scandal" which almost certainly could have been resolved if the fat a$$ loser Spec4 had used PROCEDURE to notify the proper authorities instead of squealing like a pig to the media!!

Once those flames were lit the near civil war was fueled by the election of Ahamachimmechanga in Iran and the Syrian government who were more than happy to send munitions and fighters into the fray!!

Would there have been less of a brawl if we had left the IA intact?? Maybe. But could it also have been far worse if we hadn't disbanded them?? Another maybe.

Most General Officers are soldiers.

Most soldiers really don't like war - they have to see the pain and suffering it causes up close and personally.

I'm sorry Fred, but the "insurgency" began before we'd even captured Saddam in 2003 which was way before Abu Ghraib broke out. I'm very sorry you feel that way about the soldier that did break the story, but it needed to be made known. What proper authorities was he supposed to notify Fred? As was reported everyone from the top-down condoned what was being done there.

Both of you are ridiculous. Zen you obviously have not been there, nor were you a soldier, which at least Fred has. The insurgency was abetted by Iran (shiites) and very obviously Al-queda, which has lost a ton of men an dleadership there. Syria helped Baath party memebers,, which of course is their ruling party, too. get a grip.

Maybe you should do this little thing called "research", rock, and stop acting like a rock. I did 15 months in Baghdad, I'm doing 12 in Afghanistan. The insurgency was "abetted" by any all muslims who answered a "calling" to come aid in the jihad.

"The Iraqi Resistance is composed of a diverse mix of militias, foreign fighters, all-Iraqi units or mixtures using violent measures against the United States-led multinational force in Iraq and the post-2003 Iraqi government, or by propaganda or money supportive thereof. The fighting appears both as armed conflict with the United States-led military coalition, as well as sectarian violence among the different ethnic groups within the population. The insurgents are involved in asymmetric warfare and a war of attrition against the US-supported Iraqi government and US forces, while conducting coercive tactics against rivals or other militias. The insurgency began shortly after the 2003 invasion of Iraq and before the establishment of the new Iraqi government. From at least 2004, and as of May 2007, the insurgency primarily targeted Coalition armies and latterly, Iraqi security forces seen as collaborators with the coalition."

Abu Ghraib didn't break til April 2004.

"Foreign fighters are mostly of Arab fighters from neighboring countries, who have entered Iraq, primarily through the porous desert borders of Syria and Saudi Arabia, to assist the Iraqi insurgency. Many of these fighters are Wahhabi fundamentalists who see Iraq as the new "field of jihad" in the battle against U.S. forces. It is generally believed that most are freelance fighters, but a few members of Al-Qaeda and the related group Ansar al-Islam are suspected of infiltrating into the Sunni areas of Iraq through the mountainous northeastern border with Iran. The U.S. and its allies point to Jordanian-born Al-Qaeda in Iraq leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi as the key player in this group."

The insurgency may have begun shortly after our invasion but it only picked up steam after the 24/7 coverage of Abu Ghraib which HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH GETTING THE STORY OUT, and EVERYTHING TO DO WITH TRYING TO DEFEAT "W"s re-election !!!

How am I supposed to feel about a TRAITOR, Zen?? If he had FOLLOWED procedure I would almost certainly have never rejoined the military in 2005 and my friend Jeff's son would almost certainly still be alive. You can't throw the "everyone knew and condoned it" card when HE NEVER EVEN ATTEMPTED TO FOLLOW PROCEDURE!! What proper authorities was he supposed to notify?? His chain of command. If that wasn't possible (because they did know and condone it) Army CID (Criminal Investigative Division) or the IG (Inspector General) !! Just like the wikileaks loser, he spotted potential wrongdoing and rather than notify the proper authority he released it to the WHOLE F**KING WORLD, a release that resulted in information being supplied to our enemies that never should have been!!

Fred what further procedures should he have followed?

"In January 2004, Darby provided a compact disc of photographs and an anonymous note to Special Agent Tyler Pieron of the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command, who was stationed at Abu Ghraib Prison, triggering an investigation which led to the implication of several soldiers violating the Geneva Convention. Darby initially wanted to remain anonymous, and had been assured of anonymity — he and those implicated all served in the 372nd Military Police Company, but became known after Donald Rumsfeld publicly named him during a Senate hearing. Darby had agonized for a month beforehand, but finally decided to blow the whistle on his former friends explaining "It violated everything I personally believed in and all I'd been taught about the rules of war." He had known Lynndie England, one of the most well-known suspects, since basic training. He testified that he had received the photos from Charles Graner, another soldier in the photographs."

"Spec. Joseph M. Darby, who reported what was happening in the prison, was stated that he had asked Graner, when he was the MP in charge of the tier's night shift, "if he had any photographs of the cell where the shooting took place." Darby received two CDs of photographs from Graner. Darby told investigators, "I thought the discs just had pictures of Iraq, the cell where the shooting occurred." However, the discs contained "hundreds of photographs showing naked detainees being abused by U.S. soldiers." Feeling that what he had seen was "just wrong", Darby was compelled to do something about it. Upon being confronted by Darby, Graner responded, "The Christian in me says it's wrong, but the corrections officer in me says, 'I love to make a grown man piss himself."

"The main defense was that Graner was following orders from, and supervised by, intelligence officers. Graner and others testified that many senior officers were aware of the activities and actively supported them. This is why he was not worried about taking and distributing the photographs which were later used against him. Referring to military intelligence, Graner testified "I nearly beat an MI detainee to death with MI there" before Pohl cut him off. A formal complaint about the abuse was filed by Specialist Matthew Wisdom in November 2003 but was ignored by the military. Private Ivan Frederick (previously convicted of abuse) said he had consulted six senior officers, ranging from captains to lieutenant-colonels, about the guards' actions but was never told to stop. Despite this, the prosecution did not call any senior officers to testify. Womack suggests that this was not because they "just forgot" to do so."

What else did you want him to do Fred?

Yeah we went into Iraq to show them freedom and not abuse people. Then the troops abuse the Iraqis. Tell me again how were better than the Iraqis. What a complete crock. Get out of Iraq.

Fred G. from N.C.,

When I flew off the handle (got pissed beyond all reasonable belief, since it would be the men's and women's lives of my Command that would be involved) about how wrong they were about _________________fill in the blank_________________. I fell out of Political favor and knowing that it would hurt me more instead of just sending me, they sent my men and women with me for consecutive tours here after Iraq (consecutive tours).

ZenFreedom - I'm doing 12 in Afghanistan.

Just hope you never get stuck up in the mountains for a few years conducting US Military Asymmetric Mountain Warfare like where we are at, we call this place BAD AZZ K SAN (with K SAN pronounced as Khe Sanh by my USMC CSM).

Since most do not know what this place is like during the winter we had two avalanches, and now have many flash floods (one foot deep four foot wide streams turning into rivers twenty feet wide and about ten feet deep). (I told people about this before the floods at Pakistan). Why we do not stay in the valleys here as the same thing happens every year.

Look at the terrain here (just like when we were at Northern Iraq):

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6228919n&tag=mncol;lst;1

LoL, thx for the well wishes David. No we won't be in the mountains for a few years but we are going to be up here for the winter, unfortunately. And I hate cold weather, rofl. I didn't mind Iraq because it was regularly 125+ and I loved it. Luckily we deployed from Drum, and I had the extreme luck to PCS there in the middle of winter so I got to ready myself for the mountain winters in 'Stan. Really not looking forward to it, but maybe it'll be too cold for them to come out and mortar us, LoL.

Thanks for your service David!

ZenFreedom,

I really wish they would have sent all of you to the Mountain Warfare School (mountain climbing during winter and summer, mountain warfare tactics, spelunkering, snowshoeing, skiing, etc.) and the Deutsche Bundeswehr Commando Mountain Warfare School (Alps).

Some of us also had Arctic Warfare Training (the conditions here are like northern Iraq during the winter) similar to Turkish movie (we do not make the same mistakes the Turks made, staying on a base, as fish in a barrel):

Nefes: Vatan Sagolsun (2009). Turks versus Kurdistanis at Northern Iraq/Southern Turkey.

I found a link, cannot find the one with english subtitles, you might want to watch this before you come up into the mountains here or if you ever end up at Northern Iraq. It is that important (might save your life).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRIjounaegg&feature=PlayList&p=50CE6BF56F955004&index=0&playnext=1

This is why we were so critical about the USMC to the south getting preventable non combat related injuries, frostbite, resulting in the removal of fingers, hands, toes, feet, ears, etc. while observing the USMC Assault of Marjah.

During the winter here just like when we were at northern Iraq, we wear "winter whites" all our equipment is white washed white. We carry M21s/M25s not M16s/M4s. Summer we switch to Tan.

add to post #12.12.

Ok ZenFreedom I found a link with the english subtitles.

http://www.novamov.com/video/4y75l6ltfja03

Wrong Zen, the civil war's fire was lit by an insurgency caused by the idiotic Abu Ghraib Reservists and our anti-military media's non stop coverage of the "scandal" which almost certainly could have been resolved if the fat a$$ loser Spec4 had used PROCEDURE to notify the proper authorities instead of squealing like a pig to the media!!

Fred G from N.C. - I don't agree at all. The Abu Ghraib scandal concerned misdeeds by our armed forces, not by either Sunni or Shiites in Iraq. The smoldering civil strife, which has sometimes, flared into civil war, is between rival Iraq groups. The U.S. has been happily on the sidelines, or our casualties, bad as they have been, would have been worse.

I fail to see how misdeeds by a handful of soldiers at Abu Ghraib would inspire a civil war between the Sunnis and the Shiites.

Also, regarding the "fat a$$ loser Spec4's" failure to follow procedure and instead go to the media, it seems obvious to me that the actions taking place in Abu Ghraib were sourced a lot higher than the immediate command. An enlisted man in such a position has about as much chance of getting results through channels as I do of retiring the national debt.

Sometimes whistle blowers are necessary.

@david: thanks for the links. Yeah we won't get any specialized equipment out here other than m21's. Our unit just got stood up 4 months prior to my PCS'ing up to Drum so we kind of got screwed on the equipment format (I haven't had my hands on an actual M16 in over 12 years, LoL, I'm used to having M4's) we got the BN's left overs.

@dman: Darby did follow the procedures that he knew to follow. He didn't break the story to the news, Rumsfeld did. He and his family are in protective military custody and his location won't be disclosed because of the threats that have been made on his life. It's pretty pitiful that that's the reward for doing the right thing.

Interesting update, ZenFreedom. Thanks.

If we just kept the $ that the CIA is making from smuggling Afgan. opium/heroin into the US we could recoup some of those billions.

David,

Proof? or is it just a fantasy in your brain.

With our two wars winding down we need to create a website called "$700 billion war machine for rent" hehehehe We always need a good war and if we rent out the military machine getting our a$$es kicked will be on somebody elses dime! :))

Doug 1890063 go back to playing Farmville and Halo. Leave this conversation to the grown folk.

Ok I'll do that but the grown folk are the ones that have us out trying to conquer ever third-world country that sticks it's tongue out at us. How many times do we need to get our butts kicked by third-world and citizen armies to realize that nationalism will beat us every time. Who would have giving the cavemen in Afghanistan a chance against the "strongest" military in the world? One more a$$ kicking later now we know Hmmm.. Time to use all of that testosterone for good and leave the third-world bullies alone.

Doug, you want to define "a$$ kicking" for me? And yes, we are one of the "strongest" militaries in the world. But guess what? We follow the Geneva Conventions that keeps us from being barbarians like the people we fight. Any accidental or intentional killing that have happened up to now are nothing compared to how it could be if we didnt follow these laws.

a$$ kicking: the act of leaving a country with our tails between our legs ie Viet Nam, Iraq or Afghanistan.

Well you still didnt answer my question, thats not an answer. You wanna give me your reason on how we got our "a$$'s kicked" in each of those wars? And please dont say "our", because you obviously never served.

Wrong again my friend i happily donated 4 years of my life to my country and was happy to do it. The trouble is that we have become everything we say we're fighting against. I am not proud of what we do. As for not answering the question the history books will give you all of the details you need.

Well thats the answer I expected. I didnt ask for history books, I asked you personally. And you did 4 years? Really dont care either way. But Ill take that with a grain of salt.

Yes I did four years .. during wartime BTW I agree that it is a grain of salt

Still no answer? Ok, enough said. Have fun with the rest of your trolling. Says a lot about what you think you know. Babbling a bunch of nonsense you think is right, doesnt make it right.

Doug if you served 4 years in wartime and are still here, you either didn't serve in combat or your unit didn't get it's "a$$ kicked"!! We rarely fail our missions,usually the people we abandon because of our politicians are the ones who get their "a$$es kicked" !!

We may have "won" in Iraq, but we have sacrificed much of our integrity as a proud military and many good soldiers lives and (at least as far as I can see) gotten nothing in return. I suppose eventually Iraq will be a great puppet nation for the US or maybe a good overseas hardship tour for active duty. Afghanistan still has alot of catching up to do before it even begins to resemble the "vacation" spot that Baghdad is.

ZenFreedom Afghanistan still has alot of catching up to do before it even begins to resemble the "vacation" spot that Baghdad is.

It is getting there. One day it might be like what the US Politicians, Political Appointees, Interns did to the Iraq creating a Disneyland Resort and Spa (aka Green Zone).

During one of my monthly courtesy briefings, I later heard someone else brief something about Eikenberry, Holbrooke, and the Civilian Chain of Command wanting an indoor swimming pool (restricted for use by them, no US Military nor Afghans allowed). You can image what would happen if the Afghans saw women running around in bikinis (or even heard rumors of that).

Oh, if you want Afghan KFC in the city of Kabul ZenFreedom I can give you directions if no one else will tell you. If you get tired of Pizza, Burger King, Starbucks coffee, etc..

LoL, man must be nice. It is nice to know where my tax dollars are going, rofl. We're not near Kabul and we're about to move farther away from it. When we came in through BAF I was surprised at how crappy that place looked as compared to BIAP. They actually call the place District 9 and it's very fitting, rofl.

To Zen, David, Fred, Rock and all others who I've forgotten to mention, Thanks for your service. When I went into the Navy in 1981, I assumed that service in our military was honorable and was unlike the civy world. I was wrong. Most, if not all of the people I serve with on a day to day basis were mostly honorable people doing the job they were assigned to do, but the more I had to do with the people in the upper levels of the chain of command, and our civy masters, overseers, etc., whatever you want to call the dumbass people who thought they knew how do my/our job better than we, the more disgusted I became with the whole concept of serving these people.

I only spent my 8 years and I got out. Many of those years spent In Central America 'training' supposed 'freedom fighters', who now run many of the Drug Cartels that flood product into our country, especially the ones running MS-13 out of El Salvador. I have become more disillusioned toward the leadership of this country over the years, especially after pursuing my degrees in military history and digging into what I perceive as the motivation for our foreign policy in the modern era.

Good men, as well as women now, loose their lives for scumbags whose only concern is accumulating more wealth and power for themselves. We all are but pawns on a chess board to them. To be sacrificed for a move that we garner them more.

The leadership of this countries government and corporations have no regard for the welfare of the citizens of this country any more. It has also, in my opinion, leaked into the higher levels of our military leadership now. Now, obviously only a few, but a few is still to many. I personally do not know what needs to be done to fix this problem within our great country that has now fallen from the great heights of leadership and example that had been set for the world to follow.

Do any of you feel the same or simliar? If so, give me your thoughts if it will not get you into any trouble, for I know that those of you that are still within the service need to be careful about what you say and write. Take care of yourselves, keep your eyes open and your head down, and I hope you all come back safe from your precarious, dangerous assigments. Don't fully trust the 'Spooks' either.

We're allowed to have our personal opinions to an extent, Gary. The only time you have to be careful about venting those opinions in public is when you name officers currently in a position to which you are subordinate to them (i.e. The POTUS, SECDEF, CofS, and such) as Mchrystal found out (although I think he knew what he was doing and simply wanted out of a crappy situation, but that's another post entirely.)

The problem with the military is that politics and money have been playing such a major role in the events that shape and move the military that it has become disgusting. The majority of decisions that affect soldiers on a daily basis are driven by money. If something changes in the Army (i.e. ACU's, berets, equipment fielding, etc) it's usually not done for the benefit of the soldier. Someone in the defense industry is getting some form of monetary compensation somewhere. Take the beret for instance. Ask any active duty soldier you want and they (especially if they've been in for more than ten years) will tell you that it is a complete waste of money, time, and thought process. Does it look snappy in uniforms and Class A's? Sure. Does it serve any other purpose? Not at all. The patrol cap (PC) was the only hat we needed as service members. The PC kept the sun and rain out of your eyes. There was absolutely no reason to change to berets from PC's. Someone landed a large investment at that change. ACU's. Where to start on ACU's. Are they a good all purpose uniform? For the most part. The extra pockets are convenient. That's about it. A set of ACU's are good for about 6 months of a deployment, tops. They are more expensive than the BDU's were (especially when you add in that all your name tapes and unit patches have to be velcro'd on.) There is a whole industry behind military uniforms that will never be understood by the civilian world. Getting Class A's was expensive and time consuming enough for the amount of time that we actually wear them. But with ACU's we have velcro'd name tapes, branch, unit patches, skill tabs (i.e. ranger, sapper, airborne, special forces, etc) and now your your skill badges can only be pin on (if you choose to wear them), pin on means you have to change them out with your uniform and they will eventually wear down and you have to buy more.

Much of this change is suggested by people in those industries with former service under their belts. They use their influence on the people who are still in and in a position to make decisions such as changing regulations and policy. Many senior enlisted and officers set themselves up to walk into jobs in the defense industry or some other such racket once their service is ended so that they have employment upon retirement. There's nothing wrong with that, but making your money at the expense of the soldiers is shameful. We have never been given a clear, lucid answer as to the change to the beret. Just a bullsh*t one.

Politicians and the defense industry push policy on the military and changes are made to accomodate them and basically, it seems to me, the tail is wagging the dog and it should be the other way around. All of this done at the taxpayers expense (remember the first berets were actually made in china and had to be recalled, someone got caught cutting costs so they could turn a profit at the soldiers' expense) and no one really asks any questions. In the military you're told to "stay in your lane" and that applies to many of the topics that shape our military. There's really nothing a soldier can do about the conditions affecting them on a day to day basis (to include deployments). Changing the system from within would take literally decades because for leadership change overs you'd have to wait for the "old guard" to move on. Well the promotion systems work on a selection bases and the "old guard" does the selection for the positions that could reall affect change in the military. For change to happen during our life and service times the American public needs to become more informed, needs to ask more questions, and get more involved in our government, in our military, in the day to day goings on in our country. Until that happens the things the bush administration got away with will continue to happen. I may have rambled on a bit and I'm sorry for that, but those are my personal feelings and they are shared (to an extent) by many people I've met in the military.

I also share some of them. Many procurements are made by on recommendations of former military personnel who have a stake in the process. It is truly shameful.

Just a bit delusional... The middle east is nothing like Japan or Germany. There hasn't been stability there for generations so I hope you don't seriously think that our staying there longer would make a difference. If we stayed another 50 years once we left the result would be the same. If your so serious about us staying over there perhaps you can gather up all your family and head on over to help out.

It seems your semper fidelis is exclusively for countries that can $pay. I wonder how the young U.S. soldier whose heart is bleeding out on a filthy street in Baghdad in 2020 will view your reckless moxie. You can ponder that while safe and comfortable as you compose another "Yosemite Sam" diatribe.

No. Iraq was a war that should have never been. It cannot end soon enough. Let Iraq pay Xe and Halliburton for whatever they still lack. Of course, you are free to also accept their solicitation....while risking your OWN life.

Hey WrongWay, when do you leave for boot camp?

WrongWay--We are currently unable to get that Iraqi oil you speak of to rebuild the country. We haven't been able to get any Iraqi oil so far, so what makes you think we will be able to do so in the future to rebuild thier country for/with them? What are we supposed to do--go to war with them over thier oil to rebuild thier own country? Until they are willing to pay for the rebuilding of thier country themselves, we are fighting a loosing battle. I totally agree that it would be ideal to help them to rebuild thier country 'our way'. We have tried to give them electricity, water, and sweage facilities, their bombers have blown them up. We have tried to rebuild schools and eductional facilities to teach the Iraqi people to live like we do. THEY DO NOT WANT IT. They want thier own ways and culture, not something imposed upon them-- by us that for our political advantage.

The Iraqi people must want to do this themselves with the proceeds from thier own oil. If we want thier country to be rebuilt the way you suggest (our way), we will need to be willing to finance it ourselves. There has been significant oil proceeds 'donated' to us from the Iraqi's to do as you suggest. So far there has been no Iraqi oil given to us to rebuild and improve thier country; based on that fact, there isn't going to be any $$$ from thier oil in the future for us to rebuild thier country either.

'None of this can be done if the US turns tail and run like the damn liberal bleeding hearts want. If the Dems pull us out, mark my words the terrorists will come here...and soon.'

The 'terrorists' are already here--foreign and domestic, they have put our country on the verge of financial collapse by spending our tax dollars on a useless, unwinnable war. What better way for terrorists to suceed than for us to continue the infighting amonst ourselves as your comment about the 'damn liberal bleeding hearts' indicates.

The conservatives won't allow funding for our own country with thier constant screaming about the deficit and big government. Pray tell, how are we going to be nation builders of foreign lands with a 'small government' that does not increase taxes on the American people. Yet, according to the conservatives anything goes financially as long as it's under the umbrella of 'homeland security & wars to 'keep us safe''.

We cannot afford to increase the deficit anymore by continuing our presence in Iraq. Regardless if this Iraqi military man wants us there until 2020 or not. We "damn bleeding heart liberals" choose to funnel those tax $$$ into rebuilding our OWN country for our OWN people rather than increasing the mounting deficit for your foolish 'damn conservative' war.

There has NEVER been a government in the Middle east - that is the problem. What you have is a loose confederation of petty tyrants, war lords, Clans, kinsmen groups and geologically based allegiances. None are committed to each other except on the basis of "Tradition" - marriage, religion, etc. Given enough money, goods or serviced - even those tenuous ties can be modified for a short time.

In the case of Japan and Germany... both previously had cultures of established, heirachical government. Instead of dismantling what was already in place, we merely had to keep the structure intact and carefully remove/control the leadership. As any trainer or herdsman knows - if you control the head, the body will follow.

Much, if not most of the problems in the middle east, Africa - the world, can be directly traced to outside power forcing Natural groupings/native tribes under one central authority. Britain, all the colonial powers - in the search of raw materials, resources forced many bitter, enemies into close proximity. Then as is the case of Iran, Iraq, India et al. it was easy to play one group off against the other thus controlling the populations.

The most dangerous time in defusing a bomb is just after you remove the lid. All the components are still in close proximenty - but the trigger (controls) are ineffective, its unstable and a spontaneous explosion is easily triggered.

in the big picture - leaving now will force the populations to find a way to live together on their own. As with Isreal vs. the rest of the Midde east, its easy to create a country out of thin air (as the UN did back in 1947 - 49) ... but keeping it stable will be a full time job, forever.

Max you're a thief!! You stole my line! Greeat point......Cheney's old crew Haliburton never wants to leave, how else will they have a monopoly on the worlds oil reserves? they control the oil flow now.......

BINGO Max^108 -- you definitely qualify for the bonus round.

It is even worse that than: we did our strategic, military and economic interests great harm! It will probably help precipitate our fall as the primier super power.

Max^108 - you are my hero!

Max^108,

The industrial military complex is not faceless.

Those are millions of US Civilian Jobs.

Because the US Politicians will loose that again for us (US Military).

I think that's why it was always labelled as the "War on Terror." America never declared war on a specific country but on an idea. The chances of completley stopping terrorism everywhere will never happen. But by framing the "enemy" as the idea of terrorism and religious fundamentalism you leave the door open for unending military involvement where ever the next nutjob pops up.

JAY-525283 - From a guy that was in the Air Force for 12 plus years and then Civil Service for another 20 plus years

Then why do you post:

I'm tired of our country being the police officer for the rest of the world.

Without knowing why. As in the UN using the US Military as the UN Military for most UN Missions (Korea, Vietnam (just after WWII, US Military Occupation of French Indochina), Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Darfur, etc.). With everything the UN touches turning to SH!T.

captainthursday - America never declared war on a specific country but on an idea.

US Congress Law to Overthrow the Iraqis President and Iraqis Government to Liberate the Iraqis People. That is considered an Act or Declaration of War according to the 1907 Hague Convention and 1949 Geneva Convention.

i must vehemently disagree with all of you. im former special forces, veteran of both enduring and iraqi freedom. i dont care if it takes 50 years, we must stay the course. until there inner conflict is resolved we have no other choice. heres the big picture your all missing. the iraqi military has had a hard time get recruits. who will join if the enemy will kill there family? it takes yeaers to gain enough control and eject enuff of the insurgency to show them thier families will be safe. that is why its takeing so long, end of story! i worked with them, they are truly scared, and its justifed. ask yourself this, if we leave, and the iraqi military loses a civil war who gains control? the answer to that question is obvious! it will become a breedind and training ground for terrorists the world over. if you try to deny what i just pointed out you are truly dillusional, the evidence is overwhelming! i spent 18 years in counterterrorism, i know what im talking about. we will see another 911, but times 100! dont continue to expect men like me to protect you when you make stupid decisions that tie our hands makeing it impossible to do so! all you see is today, but i know the future based on the evidence, my time with thier people and military, and my experience with the enemy! please respond and try to argue this with me, i welcome the oppurtunity to once again respond with facts. i can and will destroy every arguement you make with glee! its time for the press and media to shut up and stop spinning the truth! im speaking out because somebody who knows and is credible needs to, its well overdue! lets get something strait right now, the military kills people and breaks things. that is not and will not ever be politically correct! all political correctness does is get good men killed who are trying to defend your rights to say stupid things! when the stupidity goes so far there are no good men left, whos going to defend you? if you want to commit suicide, fine, but im fighting back, but for me, my family, and those who can never defend themselves. thats called doing the right thing, something most of you have seemed to have forgotten!

Excuse me, michael-2190286 -- my firstborn is a US Marine veteran of Iraqi Freedom. So I know exactly what I'm talking about.

michael-2190286,

They do not understand that and want instant gratification.

The concept of Asymmetric Warfare (Insurgency and Counter Insurgency, Counter Terrorism, Intelligence Verification, dirty deeds done dirt cheap, etc.) is a completely incomprehensible to them.

Even the Primary Unclassified Missions of US Army Special Forces is something that boggles their minds. They are under the assumption from watching too many movies that all Special Warfare does is kill (assassinate) people.

MS in VA,

That was your son NOT you. And unless he was USMC MARSOC (including USMC Force Recon), he has no idea either (not trained). Especially after we observed the USMC MEU (Conventional Warfare) Assault of Marjah. The days of the USMC Conventional Warfare Units storming the beach head or frontal assaults (WWII Conventional Warfare Tactics) are OVER.

Tell you son thanks for his service. My CSM (USMC) (leaning over my shoulder) says Semper Fi, Do or Die.

They're pumping lots of money into the VA for mental health treatment.

Exactly David. The US has made a sh*t sandwich and now no one wants to eat it, LoL. People are under this delusion that the Iraqi military is going to simply overcome eveything they've had to deal with for the past 60+ years and turn into a facsimile of the US Armed Forces basically overnight. It took time for the US to develop the fighting military that it has today (and we still have room for improvement.) We're slowly weeding out the corruption that is rife in the Iraqi Army system, but you've also got to contend with the Iraqi Police system which is more corrupt than their army. Countless times going out to do checks on IP stations and not long after you leave you get blown up because they got paid to tip off the bombers as to when we would arrive and when we would be leaving. Add to that the insurgents are targeting them and their families and it's a bit much to overcome in less than 5 years.

Even here in Afghanistan some of our terps are afraid to go back to their home villages because word gets out that they're working with us and they become marked. I don't know what some of these guys are ever going to do after we leave. Through service of working with us some of them get the chance to apply for citizenship but that doesn't do much for their families and not all of them get that opportunity.

It's easy to want to pull out but there are many underlying factors that are going to keep us in both warzones. Again, it sucks being here. Not many want to be here, but we do have a job to do and that is what being a soldier means. "Embrace the suck."