Could this be Darwinism?

I just hope TechnoViking is ok.

As for Darwinism? No, it seems to be an unfortunate incident for now. Maybe in the end things will seem different but I hope this keeps people thinking about their safety in groups like this in the future.

When will event organizers and Police realize that it is their responsibility to manage crowds. You have thousands of people at an event all rushing to sit up front and you don't expect something like this. This is their fault.

wow I don't believe allot of people think before they type in their so called remarks...

don't you people have a heart????? ...

better still where were your parents when they were supposed to be teaching you to do unto others as you would have them do unto you...

and if some of your remarks are what you would want someone to say to you then there are allot of sick heartless people in this world and God just took out the wrong ones when he should have been taking you ....

well maybe he is leaving you here to try to mend your ways and be a better person....

I won't hold my breath....

I would love to know how you all are going to be able to be together in heaven when you cant even live here on earth without putting people down ...hmmmm

God be with the families who have lost love ones ...

don't you people have a heart????? ...

Okay, people, whose turn is it to watch the heart? Don't tell me we've lost track of that sucker again. Larry, wasn't it your turn to keep track of it? No? How about Fred? Is it his turn?....No, Bill had it last week.

Dang. This always happens toward the end of the week.

Police commissioner Juergen Kieskemper said that just before the stampede occurred...police closed off the area where the parade was being held because it was already overcrowded. They told revelers over loudspeakers to turn around and walk back in the other direction before the panic broke out, he said.

In the end, I wouldn't be surprised if the responsibility began pointing at the police. Often, when the police try to "secure" the crowd, they often cause more problems.

It's "a lot", not "allot".

And I do have a lot of heart. I know what those kids were thinking and feeling because I was in a similar situation years ago at a concert in New Jersey. To get to the site we had to cross a very long, thin bridge, and it was PACKED! You could tell people were starting to panic when we stopped moving, luckily no one was injured. But it proves how easily things can get out of hand when you are moving people like cattle. There should always be an out!

i guess, there can be; agony and ecstasy in tunnel Love..like life; depends whether your at the bottom or top..oh gee, don't take this wrong..lives were lost, a sad event there..mass hysteria may have been caused by abrupt Control tactics, who knows ???........

@LeoLA-2060507

I am fairly disgusted by your implication that drugs had anything to do with anything. That many people in a confined space is a dangerous situation that has nothing to do with drug use.

I just saw a photo of the masses of people trying to enter through the tunnel. http://tweetphoto.com/34660169

That big a mass of people trying to move, and it doesn't take panic for a situation to happen. It just takes numbers and simple physics.

Drugs, whether alcohol our other are definiately in the picture. More, because the victims are usually somewhat intoxicated. Not their fault, though.

The egress and exit plans for these mega events are to fault.

I was at the New Years Fireworks in London, last year. There was an almost deadly situation there. People came coming in at the last minute, from nowhere. You couldn't move and was difficult to get out of there. I feared for my wife's life as we were mashed closer to the Thames, I got out early about 2 minutes to. There were only a couple of incidents where people went off the bridges. and only a few people squashed. this was in about two blocks.

A legitmate question.

When I seen "tunnel", "crowd", and "techno music" in the same discussion, I too immediately thought "rave" ...

A crowd of people stone cold sober can be just as dangerous. A mob of people will respond like a herd of animals; that is to say, with "knee-jerk" reactions. Crowds can be dangerous. I personally avoid them.

oh, the ignorance....

Stampede deaths usually occur just fine without the benefit of intoxication. Several have occurred in India during the last several years when worshiping crowds get into panic mode. During a stampede (remember what happened at Walmart less than 2 years ago?) the herd mentality sets in and the thinking logical part of our brain is temporarily overpowered by the instinctive reactions of our 'lizard brain'. I have been many a times at Howrah Train station in Calcutta , the worlds largest train station and I have witnessed smaller stampedes. It's terrifying and I've always been lucky to get to a spot where the trampling hordes passed me safely by. In fact a deadly stampede happened in May of this year in New Delhi where a number of people died.

Some people here say 'it disgusts them that people act like animals'. The fact is our human decision making and cognitive aspect is only a thin veneer over the basic fact that we are herd animals. Put a large enough crowd of people in one place and start applying various stimuli such as hunger, anger, fear, distrust etc and we all start to behave very predictably. If cameras had focused on the stampeding individuals and the footage been replayed to them later on, many won't remember exactly what they did or how it happened. They may remember what they felt. Fear.

Here's a tip, should you ever find yourself in a similar situation and get knocked down. You are unlikely to be able to stand up again. If that happens your best chances to survive is to get into a fetal position but not face down. Get into a sideway position and cradle your head in your hands. This way, then people fall on you, step on you etc you may get away with broken bones but not suffocate. If you have your face down and back up you won't be able to continue breathing for long with weight put on you. Your ribcage won't be able to expand and your lungs will not be able to take in air. The end-result will be predictable.

My thoughts are with the families of the victims. Solch ein trauriges, entsetzliches Unglück! Es tut mir so leid.

DJ, the scumbags here blaming anyone for this tragedy are not smart enough to understand what physics is much less how it works. As the crowd's weight started to shift, no one in that great mass could stop the momentum.

I'm ashamed to be an American as I read how the RJBs (repugnant judgemental ba$tards) of our sick society put their idiocy on display for the world to read. You disgusting creeps making jokes or inserting politics on this subject aren't worth the powder to blow you to hell.

Those of us with common decency should not only pray for the victims of this accident and their families but also for the remission of the cancerous hate and stupidity infecting a large portion of our population. It may take karma to catch up on these slugs but we can pray that it happens sooner than later. Their pathetic words mean nothing.

As for the survivors of this tragedy, let's hope and pray that they do not have to suffer long term physical nor psychological harm from the extreme trauma they must have experienced. If they can learn something from it, they can be in control of their future safety.

Thank you George for those kind words for everyone you RJB. How do you know everyone making comments is American? When you pray for these people ask some forgiveness for yourself and your soul. This is due to the cancerous hate you wished on people. Look before you leap.

You are heartless. These are real people who died - with parents and brothers and sisters and people who loved them. You should be ashamed.

Nope, still beating. I guess that makes you judgmental.

Would that be because people were killed while going to a LOVE parade?

And being funneled into the tunnel supports what imagery at the Love Parade. lol

You're a horrible, horrible souless person. You must have no idea what it feels like to loose someone you love. Someone I know died.

@!$%# you.

Overpopulation and the "I" am more important than anyone else attitude will make things progressively worse.

Have you ever experienced what it's like to be trapped in a crowd of thousands a half-mile deep and so tightly packed that you're unable to lift your arms? Imagine being in the center of an overcrowded bus, and then imagine that it's like that as far as your eye can see with no possible escape. Panic and claustrophobia is always a huge risk in these situations and can spread very quickly.

It doesn't take people acting like animals for this to happen-Cincinnati 1979, the Hillsborough tragedy.

Event planners are at fault here.

More exits were needed.

And the Police and the alcohol.

"Panic in a life and death emergency would be more understandable."

I can't be sure, but I'll bet that some of the last thoughts that went through the victims' minds is that it was indeed a LIFE AND DEATH EMERGENCY.

We are animals.

Large crowds of adoring people cheering for a German speaker on a balcony is ever scarier. Yes, it applies to Hitler or the pope.

Get over it - the Nazis died in 1945!

Tough love, german style

TotoKomo,

I don't think this is about politics. It's just a tragic event. My sympathy goes to those who were killed and their families. The only other comment on the article I have is this: The headline said "10 killed", and the body of the article said "15 were crushed to death" in the tunnel. Which is it?

I lived in Germany for three years. the cops are not the Nazis there. It's d!ckhead people like TotoKomo. and actually if you talk about Hitler or the Nazis or The Holocost to German people, they are very saddened and embarrassed about it. Just stop...I dont even want to hear a comment back from you...just shut up.

I agree Bootyjig.

No, your daughter was injured because she CHOSE to put herself into a place that had a high likelihood of out of control behaviors. Just as with drinking and driving; the possibility of death or injury are elevated. Amazing how it's always someone else's fault. I smoke it was the cigarette's fault. I held my plastic container in the air while filling it, it was the gasoline's fault it exploded.

dont be so ignorant! so basically your stating to never go outside of your house because if you do and something happens its the person's fault? you seem pretty slow in the head so ill just leave it at that, i dont want to confuse you.

Maybe Obama caused it...

But that is the problem. We are unregulated and unkept. As a society, we lack a basic understanding of our own world, ...and then.... we seem surprised and angry that something like this happens.

He would just blame Bush

Albert, I thought I had seen some really stupid posts here............

mystilyn, hope your daughter is ok now.

Pissed

"… so basically your stating to never …"

In English as taught in accredited schools it would be "you're"

Nothing else you had to say warrants any comment.

Was my comment stupid? Yes it most certainly was. Why I thought it was a good idea jonnymo I have no idea. My prayers go to the people who died and their families. I hope that lessons will be learned from this and that maximum attendance limits will be followed in the future.

Albert, you're idea is ridiculous. So you and you're friends decide to go somewhere, and other like-minded people decide to go there. Suddenly, you have too many like-minded people who are NOW THERE. The people in the middle of the crowd were shortly prior the people in teh back, It just builds like a wave does. I've been in a situation at a festival in Japan that you had to strain and resist just to stand up and not be pushed down. Had it been anywhre else in the world where people lose patience with each other, there could have easily been a panic and danger. It only takes a few to start a stampede in situations like that, and then it's all dominoes. Look at this tweetphoto from above and see how easily it could have happened. http://tweetphoto.com/34660169

Rob,

" … you're idea is …"

That would be "your idea"

teh is "the" "anywhre" is "anywhere"

Did you notice the red underlines that appeared for your spellings? Are you unaware of things in the world too?

your analogy of stampedes and dominos, the references are mutually exclusive to schematically representing the phenomenon

Sigh, the downfall of America was clearly linked to the selling of computers at Wal*Mart and wiring the trailer parks with dsl.

Congratulations, Albert. Yours is the stupidest post I've seen on NewsVine, and that is saying a lot! Blame the victim much?

Albert, thanks for your comment to pissed. Considering his name, maybe that's why the grammar isn't so "hot". I went to "old school" with the ruler. For my first 6 years, I had nuns to teach me the "stuff". When I went to public schools, teachers were still "in the know". Today they seem to need to be "in touch" to teach, but being "in touch" can take them out of the knowledge "loop". Oh yeah, I graduated way back in the o-l-d days, long before computers were in everybody's home...1963! By the way, no calculators (they were the 'new' thing) were allowed in geometry. You had to use the slide rule. College, regretfully, no. Lower income, yes. So whoever reads this, preach higher edu.

Pissed, get educated.

John

Wow...you know how to correct spelling on a blog! To bad it is the only accomplishment you will ever claim in your life.

"I graduated way back in the o-l-d days, long before computers were in everybody's home...1963! By the way, no calculators (they were the 'new' thing) were allowed in geometry."

You're either lying or senile. Calculators weren't 'the new thing' in 1963. They didn't exist until the early 70s, and then they were rudimentary, large, and cost upwards of $400 -- a king's ransom 40 years ago.

I don't feel sorry for you because you're old; I just feel sorry for you.

tristan

Actually the portable ones were offered by Texas Instruments for 149 back in 72, but the Wang calculators with hand-punched instruction cards were available for a good decade before.

USSA,

for the educated that would be "too bad" -- guess what part you missed, not that I corrected spelling on the blog (after all there is spell Czech for the likes of you) but I did correct grammar. Were you absent for those years in school?

As for claiming accomplishments, I have no need to make any claims as there are sufficient accomplishments attributed to my work in my professional life.

Is it that you utilize some form of "spin" or padding of your vitae to impress the babes at the bar?

"Actually the portable ones were offered by Texas Instruments for 149 back in 72,"

got any documentation on that?

"but the Wang calculators with hand-punched instruction cards were available for a good decade before."

Well, if you're going to include non-digital, why not go back to the odhner in 1874?

Albert, do you realize you have been ragging on people for their grammar, but have made multiple mistakes in both punctuation and sentence structure? I guess you must have missed that class.

You're right, Appalachian.

Here are a couple of his bigger boners:

"the possibility of death or injury are elevated." (Should be "is elevated.")

"I smoke it was the cigarette's fault." (Apparently, he 'ran out' of punctuation altogether. (There should be a period or semicolon after "smoke."))

tirstan,

I am confident that you're familiar with Wikipedia. You'll find the SR-10 was replaced with the SR-50. Got my offer to make an introductory purchase of the Slide Rule (SR) 50 in late 73 for the price of 149. I can't recall is shipping was included.

The Wang Lab was digital, using a set of vacuum tube segmented readouts.

Wow I wonder if you're man enough to apologize to that other fellow for your name calling (lying or senile) and then your ageist remark about age.

So tristan, what if any value does your existence bring to the benefit of mankind?

So, then, your answer is 'no'? You have no documentation?

"We are unregulated and unkept."

So you'd like to be regulated and kept.

Regulated how?

Kept where?

Tristan, guess this means you're a waste of human skin when you can't even be man enough to apologize to another poster for your childish name calling. I gave you the citation but you'd rather try and deflect. Standard tactic for someone caught in wrong doing, rather than act as an adult. For the sake of humanity we can only hope you haven't spawned.

Right Bill ... I feel for the families. Not only did they lose thier loved ones, but they have to deal with knowing they died in a horrific way.

I'd like to say that I agree Handgunner, but my parents didn't care for popular music of my youth either. I come from the rock 'n' roll like Ricky Nelson, Buddy Hully, Elvis. And I can guarantee that their parents didn't care for their pop music either. Do you care for Bethoven? I'm not 'crazy' about it. But I can listen to it over today's. And I'm sure my parents said the same about Brenda Lee and the Beach Boys.

John

It was left in the tunnel, as the love parade marched on.

Did you ever think it was for the safety of the people. It could have been over crowded, and they were trying to stop something like this happening. We do not know the whole story, so we can not judge! Yes, there should have been a better way to handle it, but lets wait till the facts are in.

The problem began with people who rushed the event, not the police who tried to keep order. You seem to blame the police and call victims the people who perpetrated the chaos.

Let me guess - you're all for redistribution of accumulated wealth to those who haven't taken the time to earn it (as in, paying for entry into the event).

Right cops are douche bags no matter where you go in the world. DOUCHE BAGS!

So true!!!!!!!

The cops probably had to take that decision to avoid a possible greater tragedy inside. People like you, who blame the cops for everything are the kind of unthinking people who cause these tragedies. And then afterwards, always assume someone else is to blame.

and what if the police didnt try to make the situation safer and just let thousands more enter and lets say something else happened on a greater scale? the police would be at fault. i do realize that the police are an easy scape goat. but you really do have to think further on both sides of the story.

Cypresscrow, you are a class A fool aren't you? The police try to stop people entering an area because they see that it could create a dangerous situation and you call this "force"? And then people ignore the police and surprise, surprise a dangerous situation develops and people die and so you say the police are to blame for the tragedy?

Were you born stupid or did it take you a decade of study to work up to that lofty level of intellectual achievement?

I suppose if the police put up a barrier with a sign that said "Bridge Out Ahead" and a bunch of fools promptly drove their cars around the barrier and into a river; that the police would be using "force" and would have "caused a dozen drownings"? I think the problem here is that you just plain don't like the police and blame them whether they did right or wrong.

I have seen some damn fool posts on Newsvine but yours truly takes the prize.

The police were trying to control the volume of "Ravers".... Then the unfortunate happened, sadly...

cypresscrow, you are one giant douche bag and excrement sandwich rolled into one; The grounds were ALREADY OVER CROWDED and the police tried to turn back the big crowd of stupid sheeple that were trying to get in and get something for free. It was the Sheeples stupidity ( like a bunch of cows or sheep stampeding) and their determination to get in and get a free concert. Blame all your lame brained, drugged up buddies at the back of the crowd who kept pushing and trying to get in despite the police attempting to turn them back and control the crowd. Does your keeper know you are using the computer??

You know nothing about what happened, so please shut up.

whereby Common Sense is replaced by panic and self-preservation instincts.

While I can't really argue with the points that you're making, your posting is basically contradictory. It doesn't matter how much we try to instill respect and civility into our children, once the situation is underway, "panic and self-preservation instincts" will take over.

Correction: The Festival-area could handle 500.000 people. There where 1.400.000 at the moment of the panic.

What kind of "festival" promoters would let almost TRIPLE the amount of people into a place that can hold 500K????

It would have been much easier to handle if they had paid attention to the amount of people that they had already let in.

Drugs, police, heat, none of them had anything to do with the situation. It was the overcrowding that was allowed to happen, plain and simple.

Don't forget, that the will to survive takes over EVERY instinct, people will do whatever they can do, to make sure that they live, it is NOT a conscious decision. It's built into our very fibers as humans. It happens during fires (such as in RI nightclub and in NYC & Chicago nightclub fires as well), and any kind of tragedy, where the fight and flight mode takes over. These people are/were not ANIMALS, as somebody else mentioned.

Just remember folks, unless you yourself has ever been into that same type of situation, you will never know, what it is like, or how it can feel. Don't be so quick to judge and accuse. Triple the amount of people is the ONLY thing that matters here right now,,,,those people didn't stand a chance.

My thoughts are with the families, and those that continue to fight to live......

"What kind of "festival" promoters would let almost TRIPLE the amount of people into a place that can hold 500K????"

Lynwood Correctional Facility, and the judge that put Lindsay Lohan there.

Wow. An incredibly stupid non sequitur. And I believe Ms. Lohan has a private room. Hopefully she will enjoy her privacy a while.

Will they be making tapes of chick-on-chick while Lindsay is in jail? The folks could help offset the horrendous costs of the Lohan Circus that have been dumped on the taxpayers.

Idiot

egg sandwich with a side of bacon

lemmings not lemurs..... I stand corrected. Thank you for catching that, and I am not an idiot... just made a mistake, as we humans so often do. I know these people were not animals.... just giving example of mindless panic following the "leader"... These precious people were and are someone's father, mother, son, daughter, brother, sister, etc. I can well imagine how those left behind feel. I, too, have had to bury a son (age 20), my only child... it is a pain and sorrow that never leaves.... you just learn how to carry on, and that takes a long time.

Well, everybody is 'Hitler' so it only make sense that nazi's would be everywhere as well.

all you need to do is read up further on these comments and you will see how many ignorant people there are.

I'm so sorry for the loss of your brother. Your description of the event is interesting; when others hear of these occurances we think of a wild rush of people, the "stampede" if you will, and people being trampled underfoot. And I always wonder how it was that other people attending the event aren't even aware of what happened until afterwards. Your description of the massive crush of so many people causing others to die of compression injuries really makes one think.

bbruth...I`m sure the loss is still difficult after all the years. Your description is right about how it happens. I was in a large crowd entering a show a few years ago and it almost happened. Only 2 doors were open for a couple thousand people to enter. A couple of more doors popped open and people started in until the police started pushing people back out. All the while people from the back still pushing forward. I could feel my rib cage being squeezed and it is not a good feeling. Another person near me must have been claustrophobic and was on the verge of a panic attack. I tried to stay calm but it`s not easy when you`re in the middle of two opposing forces. Personally I think the police made a bad decision at this parade. If you are going to attempt crowd control.....don`t do it where people are being funneled into a constricted space with no way out!!

I'll never forget it - I was at a theater watching a movie with a friend, back in the early 80's. We were both back on leave from the military, after having not seen each other in a few years. About halfway through the flick, someone near the rear of the theater detected smoke and started running toward the lower exits. Next thing you know, there was a thundering stampede of people, with no prior warning whatsoever. No one yelled "FIRE!", or anything like that, it just started out of nowhere. Both my friend and I were heavily trained to handle emergency situations, but before we could even grasp what was happening, some guy seated across the aisle from us jumped out of his seat, stood in the aisle facing the rear, putting himself directly in harm's way, raised his hands up, and screamed at the top of his lungs "STOP!". Everyone froze in their tracks. With the crisis averted, he instructed everyone to WALK to the exits and proceed out of the building. Turned out, there really was no fire, the popcorn oil had been overheated and started smoking badly. People could have died, for absolutely nothing. I wanted to find that guy and let him know how much I appreciated what he had done, but couldn't locate him after we got outside. It was one of the most amazing things I've ever experienced, and that guy was a truly brave, genuine hero in my mind. Like I said, I'll never forget it. I was used to handling serious emergencies of a completely different nature, but I had a clear sense of having narrowly avoided a brush with death, and it both happened, and ended, in a quick flash.

Suffice it to say, I now avoid large crowds whenever possible. You just don't know what can happen when large groups of humans are involved. One thing I know for sure: the German cops were just trying to prevent a potential disaster from happening, and ended up accidentally causing one in the process. It's not their fault, and it's not the fault of the participants, either. A crowd clearly does have a mind of it's own; unfortunately, it's judgment is approximately equal to that of the most foolish, immature and irrational of it's constituent members.

Reading about this sad event brings back frightening memories for me too. I was caught in a crushing crowd once many years ago. A woman standing next to me had a wine bottle broken on her head by some drunken punk. Panic and more violence erupted. To this day, I cannot abide crowds.

Where were you? My sister attended that concert too. We were very worried. She didn't know anything about it until she was driving back home.

Eighteen people are dead and you're hawking your crowdsafe.com site? Wow. That's cold, man.

My condolences for the loss of your brother.

I do believe that, sounding like one way in and out, that this was a formula for disaster. You would think that anyone but a child would know this without much thought. But, sounds like local government fixed their wagons. Bureaucracy, what a shame. I believe that on a much grander and I do mean much grander scale that is what is happening in The US by our government with the medical and financial reform. They're going to run us like cattle through a shoot. Many will be trampled.

bbruth262, my condolences also for the loss of your brother.

I was about 20 years old when that happened and I always remember it every time I am in a large crowd stuation, or when something similar happens in the news. A couple years later Pete Townshend wrote 'eminence front', lyrics say over and over:'people forget'. Maybe he was trying to believe that, but people don't forget, they move along down the highway of life, hopefully leaning on the Lord for their comfort and their peace.

Didn't they have a similar situation in the last few years in mecca?

ha ha... you are funny... what about the kids in november 1917 in st. petersburg/russia? lets blame them for this todays tragedy in germany - its all the communists fault who popp all that nonsense in the todays kids heads... more... keep on...

You said, "heard". "huh uh huh uh uh uh"

Exactly

So too many people getting pack in a tunnel at the love parade leads to panic, cant say i disagree. I would panic if i was being packed in a tunnel at a love parade.

Got myself packed once, did not like it.....