First off, nice pun, I like it. Second, I think the bean bag would be comparable in the amount of damage it would do to an 87 year old woman with heart and mental problems: lethal. The taser obviously disrupted her already-weak circulatory system to the point of failure, much like overloading a computer. And the beanbag would have just beat her to death, probably causing lung or bone damage. Also, the beanbag would have sparked much worse public outcry, and I think the officer who fired the taser made the right choice, and should not feel guilty.

Don't believe the story put out by the cops, just yet. They have been known to skew the facts. Even when there is controverted video, the cops would fabricate some alibi to justify an illegal homicide.

Yes, because cops love to beat up on old ladies. That's how they earn their Christmas bonus.

At the time, a Taser probably seemed like a better option than a bean bag fired out of a shot gun - 87 year old body isn't going to hold up well to being blasted to the ground by hard hitting bag shot out of a firearm. We're missing a lot of details: we don't know whether she had relatives close by to talk to her, but since she was waving a gun, they aren't going to let them get too close to her, and if there were other houses close by she was a threat. She was an immediate threat to the officers. They had to get her disarmed particularly if she had any type of age related dementia which is pretty common at her advanced age - if she shot the gun off and killed a neighbor, then people would be like "why didn't they disarm her?" It's a sad case that's for sure.

Over 500 deaths caused by a "non-lethal" device.

If this were any other type of consumer product, it would be pulled off the market or at least labeled as possibly lethal.

Condolences to the family of this woman. Prayers never bring anyone or anything back but at least you feel better.

I believe the whole situation is a tragedy. Obviously this woman was terrified. I can't say I blame her in this day and age. But to think of her being surrounded by men, in her confused state of mind, and her feeling helpless, scared, and alone is sad.

The gun is the root of the problem and I wonder how she got one. I thought people with psychological issues could not own guns.

It would be apparent TO ANYONE that this woman is slightly off-center and she should not have been given a gun. If the woman got the gun on her own, so sorry that you killed yourself.

Despite what many people think, I think the police have a tough job and THEIR LIVES are on the line every day. I WANT THE POLICE TO LIVE instead of the psychologically challenged person.

There is no way the police could have anticipated that this person would die from being stunned. The police are not at fault.

I just wish that someone could have helped this woman out before it got to this point.

Why did the police not go to her door and secure the situation right there?

Instead they act like $ussies and hide in the schrubs and taser her in the back......

If the cops are that scared to do their job- maybe they should seek another occupation. The 87 year old lady probably could not even aim the gun let alone hit any of the officers.

Put on some bullet proof vests and body armour and go up to the door and talk to the old lady, get her gun, and bring her down to the mental hospital for a nice cup of coffee.

But that would make too much sense........................

This is a tragic story that illustrates that when a person has reached the point where they are losing their mental faculties, they should be cared for by responsible people and/or their family. Those care givers should also seriously consider the fact that a person in that condition may not possess rational reasoning skills it takes to use a weapon or a vehicle for that matter. A very sad end to this woman's life.

Use of deadly force.

The worker called for help, and deputies arrived to find the woman on her porch, Strovink said. Approaching her, they talked her into putting down the weapon, he said, but she quickly picked it up again.

The Officers (even when encountering a mentally unstable person) have a duty to protect the public, their fellow officers, and themselves. They would, under the letter of the law, be justified in applying deadly force in carriage of their sworn duty. They chose to use the taser, it ultimately proved to be more than the woman's body could take.

As to the assertions that the Police are lieing and they behaved criminally, This story has been out on the wire long enough that if the statement given to the press was anything other than what the witnesses observed, you would have heard something by now. Media loves controversies and scandals, they would be all over this if there were any conflicting accounts of what transpired. Their intent was not to kill her, for the officer to be charged, there has to be intent.

All tasers and stun guns are supplied with a warning that they can potentially cause death or severe injury. There are over 500 people killed every year in the US by medications that are STILL on the market and prescribed daily. In some States, it is legal for a 16 year old to purchase a rifle or shotgun. Those same states prohibit the sale of tasers to anyone under the age of 21. Besides sell defence, guns can be used for hunting and sport. There is no other use of a stun gun other than to put a person down without resorting to shooting them with live ammunition, there is no sport or hunting purpose for Tasers and stun guns. Since these states prohibit the possession of these by minors, I would say there is an overall awareness of just how dangerous they can be.

Bluearhcher, first of all, it's not a consumer product. Second, do you know that she wouldn't have shot a officer, neighbor, or the contractor? The real tragady is that her family didn't take her gun away when she got to this point of dementia.

Karen, the gun is not the root of the problem. The root of the problem is why was a woman with dimensia left on her own out in the middle of nowhere.

Take your anti-gun propaganda somewhere else.

me...You have quite an active imagination and obviously some kind of vendetta against police officers. COULD HAVE been an old lady in a rocker? Hmmmmm...then WHY were the police called and told she was outside waving a gun? Here's a plan for you....if you or your family ever need police protection....don't call one. Why should they risk their life protecting your moldy azz.

Dave M...So are you saying that YOU would be brave (read:stupid) enough to walk up unprotected to some demented person who is waving a gun? Then you'd be stupid AND dead. She probably couldn't aim a gun, you say? YOU want to take that chance? Stupid is as stupid does.

Maybe, maybe not. And who said "shoot the gun out of her hand?" That is harder to do than you think. It has happened but that is a lucky shot. I am astounded at the comments of the police being cowards. Which one of you morons are "brave" enough to walk directly up to a person holding a firearm? If you do that you wont last long, trust me. No matter how old or young the person is. Wow, some say walk right up and take the gun away, she may miss because she is old. Maybe she was very familiar with guns and CAN shoot! Mental illness doesn't discard marksmanship. The ballistic vest is not an all out guarantee to save your life. What if she aims at your head? Come on folks, get real! This isn't a Holywood movie.

Have the police heard of this thing concept called COMMON SENSE? The woman was obviously not thinking coherently.......why did they not back off and call in their supervisor? The outcome may have been the same, but officers seem to be too quick to shoot (whether it's their gun or taser) and think later. I realize being a police officer is a tough job but it's like being a parent you can't apply the same actions to every incident. There is a world of difference between and 87 year old woman, afraid for her life (in this case, she was correct) and a 30 year old with a drug stash!

FatCatGets$700Bil

Don't believe the story put out by the cops, just yet. They have been known to skew the facts. Even when there is controverted video, the cops would fabricate some alibi to justify an illegal homicide.

_________________________________________________________________________

Hmmmmm, FatCat why do you sound like a lawyer that is always looking for something to sue over and believe me no one skews facts better than lawyers.

Now I personally think they should have backed off and just made sure she stayed on her porch and maybe she would have fallen asleep but who knows. I am sure the police didn't want to kill and 87 year old woman. As far as why was she living alone that is a question for her family to answer.

Yes. A bean bag gun, or simply physical restraint would have been better. They call the stun gun NON LETHAL, but the fact that it's been killing in alarming rates would make that a NONSENSICAL classifications. Right here where I live a retarted man was stunned to death, and the Judge ruled that the family of the victim could seek NO recompense for his loss. While the police don't want to kill, I HOPE, the fact that they ARE killing with tazers means that we have a problem... especially when our police, judges, and laws make it so that the "unintentional" second-degree murder of people gets smoothed over and "WOOPS" we did it again! OOPSY!

DaveM, Me and uvuvuv----all three of you have made such idiotic statements that you shouldn't be allowed out without someone to hold your hand while crossing the street. Enough said as you aren't worth any more time or space.

Karen, please take your gun is the root of all evil and go play some where else. The article never said she just bought the gun. Could have been in the family for years. Your anti gun c--p gets really old.

FatCatGets$700Bil:

Right. And the backhoe operator was in on it as well.....and there was no call made by him that would have been recorded.

Diabolical!

They should have focused less on her heart condition and more on her dimentia in this article.

A bullet doesn't care if a crazy old lady fires it or anyone else for that matter and the police did not respond with equal force. They convinced her to drop the gun and she quickly picked it back up. Yet, they still did not discharge their firearms.

A tazer could feasibly kill anyone, but they were given no choice. I guess they should have just walked away, eh?

This kind of scenario is one most all law enforcement officers I've ever known absolutely dread, about as much as every train engineer I've ever met lives in fear of a full school bus or a gasoline tanker trying to cross the tracks immediately in front of their moving train.

The odds of a satisfactory resolution to a service call like this are very slim, indeed. It is almost guaranteed to not end well, regardless of how it's handled. Only the miracle of the woman stepping away from the gun and calmly interacting with the officers would've lead to an acceptable outcome.

Tasers, along with bean bags and batons, are NOT non-lethal weapons, they're less than lethal, meaning that they are not normally expected to result in maiming or death like deploying a firearm would, but that death is still a possibility that cannot be ruled out. Less than lethal weapons are still dangerous weapons and if you could even get your hands on one (not easy; they're not usually sold to the public), you would need a permit to carry weapons in order to lawfully posses one outside of your own home or property, and even then it may be expressly prohibited or at least officially frowned upon.

Quite often, less than lethal weapons are not effective on people they are meant to be used on. They're not intended to be an officer's only tangible threat management tool, and in any case, they really are meant to assist in subduing a resisting suspect so they can be taken into custody. If that suspect escalates their resisting arrest into aggravated assault where the officer is in genuine fear for their safety, or the safety of a third party, that suspect needs to be stopped RIGHT NOW before they can consummate that assault as a murder. That is what the sidearm is for.

About the best semi-reasonable thing the officers could've done would have been to try to tackle the woman, which would almost certainly have injured or killed her and quite possibly injured or killed one or more officers if it didn't go completely right.

It really is a 'no-win' situation if there ever was one, which is why no officer ever wants to have to respond to a call like this one.

I am with the Police on this one, these extremely dangerous seniors citizens, packing heat and capable of God knows what, must be corralled and they deserve no special care. Obama from God knows where, would have these criminals out of the sanitariums, giving them 5 star heath care and working the streets selling pills and their personal services. This is the USA not Sodom and Gomorrah. Some times we have to listen to the wise words of the merciful, forgiving, and sweet Holy Moses.

Amazing how no one ever dies from having large amounts of electricity sent through their body by the cops. The coroner always seems to find another reason for the death.

The first coroner who rules it "death by taser" probably won't make it home that night. They'll find his body 4 to 6 weeks later, an apparent suicide due to gun shots wound to the back of the head.

Karen, the gun is not the root of the problem. The root of the problem is why was a woman with dimensia left on her own out in the middle of nowhere.

Take your anti-gun propaganda somewhere else.

I regret that you misunderstood my post. I completely support gun ownership EXCEPT for mental cases to use the blunt term.

My intention was as set forth by idiots around me in post 1.11. That person said it much more eloquently than I.

As well, I do not think your comment about my post was justified. That woman was pointing guns at people and as idiots around me said, the police have a DUTY to protect the public and themselves. They could have shot her and chose to use a taser instead.

The reason we outlaw mental cases owning guns is because they shoot people for no good reason. Why should the mental case live over the sane person doing their job?

Some good questions. Now, regarding the first question, dementia; it is entirely possible that she has no children to take care of her. Unless someone acts irationnally they cannot be committed against their will. Secondly, dementia isn't always constant. Someone may be quite lucid at some times and less so later in the day.

Regarding the gun, it's most likely one she's owned for possibly decades. I feel sorry for her but agree that the actions taken by law enforcement were the right ones. Tasers are less lethal than a bullet and since she was waving a gun about she had to be disarmed for the safety of everyone around. Even if she had not been able to aim straight, a stray bullet could have easily caused injury or death.

I also wondered why she was alone and armed if she has dementia. The officers did the right thing.

If someone doesn't want to leave their home and hasn't given anyone power of attorney, it is very difficult to force them to move. A court has to declare them as not capable of taking care of themselves and appoint a guardian. That process can take a long time to run its course.

Answer to the first post here: She was just exercising her 2nd amendment rights. So what if she had dementia. Got's to protect them rights for all.

Old age and guns is that way. I lived for a decade waiting for the demented old guy across the street to go off after some drunken raging rant. So, you exercise your 2nd amendment rights in case you need to protect yourself, notify the authorities of the problem and hope you don't have to put your weapon to use. After a DUI and a fall down the stairs he mostly immobilized himself and the drinking finally blew his brains out (stroke). The relatives found quite the arsenal while cleaning up the estate.

My advise to you if you're demented, don't go waving your gun around for no reason. You'll probably end up dead. Personally I would rather live my life not having to be prepared to take your life to protect others before the authorities arrive to take care of your stupidity.

"My advise to you if you're demented, don't go waving your gun around for no reason."

I'm sure that a demented person will follow your advice! Ding Dong!

I knew nothing about alzheimer's disease until my mother developed the disease around 88 yrs old. We cared for her 24/7 for six years. A person goes from fairly normal activities to not being able to get water out of the refrigerator. It is sad that this women had no one to take care of her. Alzheimer's patients have no idea of reality while seemingly talking normally.

It is not the fault of the police, but they need some training. Believe me, living in a world of irrational fears and unable to care for your basic needs is much worse than death.

Dementia isn't the same thing as Alzheimers. My dad has dementia and he's perfectly capable of functioning on a day-to-day basis. But he does some really crazy stuff from time to time, like turning the furnace all the way up and running the a/c at the same time. That's why he lives with me- so I can keep a closer eye on him.

The lady probably should not have been alone but the hospital could not hold her if she had a place to go. It's just that simple. But make no mistake, that lady was very much capable of killing someone.

So what is your solution, the handgun? The shotgun? Oh yea, how about a bean bag round? Really? Most smaller Police agencies do not have bean bags due to cost and the cost of training and certification to use them. This is because everyone wants to cry foul when they are used. Not to mention the effect a bean bag would have on the old lady. So should they have sneaked up on her? Left the scene and leave her to regain her faculties? What? What is the answer? The taser has saved many many lives. Look it up. Go ahead, don't be afraid of the facts. It is a less lethal weapon. Less lethal than other options. It works a great majority of the time, but not every time. I have been tasered 4 times. It hurts. I volunteered each time, because I believe in the technology. It is an effective tool. The officers negotiated with her and she put the gun down. Then SHE decided to pick it up. They then tried to go the safest route (for her) and use the taser. The taser is safer than the other options, including sneaking up on a person with a gun. What happens when the tackle her and subdue her? Then you same people complain about her broken bones or whatever injury she received. Please. Shut up if you do not know what you are talking about.

Ok you have volunteered 4X to be tased, that right there explains a lot. What you didn't get the idea after the first time? I believe in technology as well, however I possess common sense as well obviously something you are lacking.

Common sense is dead, dead, dead. While I can't completely blame the police officer in this one (I'm not a big fan of the police in the first place), I still can't completely agree that the tazer was a last resort. Perhaps a little more talking could have resolved the situation, we'll never know. It does appear to me, after reading way too many articles of the police seriously injuring, or killing the elderly, that they do NOT know how to approach the situation. The police just don't know what to do with those of us who have reached the Golden Years but don't quiet have all our faculties. We are not deranged killers out to kill on an off day and we certainly can't overpower a burly cop. If the cop was close enough to tazer her, perhaps he was close enough to shoot the gun out of her hand with the bean bag gun. But then, hind sight is always 20-20.

Here's an anwser to the first question.

She was 87 years old. She could have had that gun for years. Guns don't break down like old cars. Furthermore, even at my 48 years of age, I could have bought a gun at 18 without having to have it registered. Guns bought before registration and background checks were required are still in circulation today and not registered. Only the guns that were bought after the requirement are registered.

It's very easy to buy an unregistered gun from someone else that was bought unregistered as a new gun in the first place.

Just how could the police get a background check on this old lady? Just where would this "background check" on her come from? And, at a moment's notice no less. Get real...

Anyone can get a gun in this country.

First, for Berrymountain--the police didn't tazer her twice. A tazer has two probes; it works by completing the arc of electricity (just as a lightbulb has two filaments). And to carry a tazer in almost all (if not all) departments, an officer MUST be tazered.

And second, for John Shriver, who wrote

The police just don't know what to do with those of us who have reached the Golden Years but don't quiet have all our faculties.

Does ANYONE? What would you suggest the police do about someone who comes out waving a gun and cannot be reasoned with?

Anyone who thinks a cop wanted to kill an old lady he didn't even know doesn't quite have control of all his/her faculties!

"Are you serious" -with regards to common sense, I have plenty. I volunteered to be taser 4 times as part of the instructor certification (once each time over a period of years). I did this for three reasons. #1. Credibility in court. You can't talk about it if you've never experienced it. It is a feeling like nothing else I have experienced, and unpleasant. I could not honestly say that without having done it. I did it each time because to me, it gives more credibility. I have been tasered 4 times and each time it was effective, I was incapacitated. #2. As the instructor, I again need to be able to talk intelligently about the taser while providing instruction. #3. Believe it or not, sit down for this. Not every officer is out to torture and hurt people as some of the folks in this thread believe. I have felt the taser and no it hurts. I believe that this is a good thing. I will not use it to torture, or for "pay back" or whatever you people think it is that drives cops to do their jobs.

Again, the taser is a tool. If I can taser you and stop your aggression or gain compliance with my LAWFUL orders, then that is what I will do. Its beats me jumping on top of you (or in this case, the 87 year old lady) and beating you or wrist locking or striking to gain compliance. That is how suspects get hurt and officers get hurt that way too.

John Shriver:

I don't think that people in their Golden Years set out to kill people everyday, but then again this lady had the means (the gun) and made an attempt to get the gun again. Whether it was her plan that morning or the effects of dementia, I don't really care. Either way, you end up dead if she pulls the trigger on you. I don't care what she thinking when she does it and neither would my family. When she kills you, you are dead.

As far as shooting the gun out of her hand with a bean bag, this is more fiction based on TV. Again it is not reality. What happens when you miss? If you are within bean bag range (and they are not really that accurate, you are within range for her to shoot you. Think about it because you only get the one chance.

Amen. Put yourself into the shoes of the cops - she is denented, grabs for a gun - she should have been shot. The fact that the utility guy had called with her threatening her with a handgun at 2:30pm, makes me believe the situation was what they said.

Berrymountain - you are a fool - you know nothing about "Background checks". No, they could not have "called one in". And chances are, it would not have helped anyways. Lets get this straight - if you grab for a gun or aim something resembling a gun at a cop, you die. PERIOD. Cops do not have the luxury of waiting to see if what you are waving is a real weapon, loaded or if you really intend on using it. If they do, the die. The cops in this situation should have pumped her full of lead instead, but they didn't.

One thing I hate more than anything else is the lack of accountability - it is always someone else's fault. This was an unfortunate incident that was 100% the woman's fault, no matter the dementia circumstances involved.

This is expounding on Robert Karp's comment, number 2.13:

Throughout the United States, there is only one firearms registry, the one maintained by the Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, which lists all lawfully possessed 'Title II' firearms that fall under the provisions of the National Firearms Act of 1934. These firearms are all rifles with 16" or less barrel length, shotguns with less than 18" of barrel length, rifles or shotguns less than 26" in overall length, anything that fires more than one cartridge per each pull of the trigger ('machine guns'), or sound signature suppressors ('silencers'). All have absolutely had to be on this registry since 1968, and any sale or transfer is done with the knowledge and approval of the BATFE, to include collection of a $200 transfer tax each time one of these guns changes hands, which is really what the NFA is all about.

Outside of the NFA registry, any 'registration' for firearms will be on a state or municipal government level. The BATFE form 4473 that you fill out when purchasing any modern (1899 or newer) firearm is retained by the Federal Firearms License holder (gun dealer) for twenty years, unless the FFL goes out of business. Then the forms have to be turned over to the BATFE. If they want to track a gun, they've got to guess where it came from, go find that dealer, and work forward or backward from there. It is not an easy or efficient process, and it is wrought with dead ends because of private sales, thefts, and other changes in ownership. This is not all bad since it is effectively a check on government power, yet it does still give investigators a little something to work with, even if using it is a real hassle.

Cowboy:

PJ:

Rebecca:

While dementia comes in varying degree of severity, there is no evidence the 87 year old was suffering from severe dementia. Surely, if this elderly woman were suffering a severe form of dementia, her doctor and family would not have allowed her to live alone. It would be very interesting what her medical history states, rather than what the cops claimed when faced with a dead body, a product of a questionable police killing. Since cops are not doctors, they have no authority to make any medical diagnosis as to the mental state of this 87 year old woman. In fact, there are numerous, mentally healthy 87 year old women who do not suffer from dementia. Fortunately for the cops, the dead can't defend herself in court.

FATCAT - unfortunately, your statement means zero. She had a gun. She threatened someone. She threatened cops. I do not care if she was demented or not; she got less than she deserved. You are correct; the cops do not have the authority or specialization to make the call of her mental stability, but it does not matter - she caused her unfortunate circumstance. PERIOD.

PJ:

Not all the facts are in. There's still the unanswered question as to whether the 87 year old woman held a gun or even expressed a hostile disposition at anyone or toward the police. The police said a construction worker reported the 87 year old had a gun. As that is hear-say evidence, it must be verified by additional evidence.

The Tazer gun operates at a very short range. For the police to tazer the woman, the police must felt safe enough to have approached her within the Tazer range. If the woman had held a gun with an aggressive posture complicated by dementia as reported by the police, how it is possible that the police could have walked up close enough to the woman in order to fire the Tazer gun? This is but one genuine issue of material fact.

Until sufficient relevant evidence are introduced and their veracity established, it would be premature to conclude that "she caused her unfortunate circumstances." As your pro-prosecution argument has failed the burden of persuasion of beyond a reasonable doubt, my earlier comments are still applicable and your summary judgment is inappropriate at this time.

Maybe the gun was originally her husband's. Could be no one knew she had the gun. It's just really sad, but the officers acted appropriately. They COULD have shot her and still been technically correct, but they tried the option that I'm sure they thought was less lethal. I'm sure if any of the cops had their police cruiser cams directed to the house, that video will be released at some point and all the "screaming mimies" can see for themselves that she pulled a gun on the police officers. Ever heard of "suicide by cop"? Maybe she was just sick of it all.

sickofidiots:

Your points are all speculations. "Maybe...... Could be......COULD have...... if any....Maybe....."

First of all Ryan...Tasers or Teasers...make up your mind.

Secondly, there is not enough info in the article to support some of your comments. The women is waving a gun around, is she going to shoot or not? Don't know...let's take the time to find out if she has any relatives to help calm her down and hope she doesn't shoot us in the meantime. An armed standoff is a scary thing.

What's the distance from the officers and the lady? A beanbag round in close quarters can kill a person as easily as a bullet.

Thirdly--Too many tools, too hurt people? Look at what the police are up against. The criminal element is generally better armed than the police, especially the patrol cops. Fully automatic rifles, grenades, RPG's, you name it they have it or can get it. Patrol cops have what? 9mm, .357, .44, .38? A shotgun and maybe a semi auto rifle?

Lastly, if it wasn't for these "too stupid to do the right thing" men and women out there protecting us as best as they can, the nations crime rate would be even higher than it already is. And that's no reflection on law enforcement. They are doing the best they can with all the restrictions placed on them by the government, ACLU and other bleeding heart liberals who are more concerned about the "civil rights" of the criminals than they are about the good, decent law abiding citizen who was just raped, robbed, murdered, etc, by the non law-abiding criminal.

if the US ever learned from the past, they would have realized that making more things illegal and control over more things only gives gangs and organized crime more influence and money.

look what happened in mexico, mexico wanted to legalize drugs, the US flipped out and made them not do it, then shortly after all the bloodshed started... and worse.

you need to take the profit away from them.

switzerland decriminalized heroin and made several places for the people to do it, why? to stop the money from leaving the country and funding the wars in the balkans. they legalized heroin, crime didnt go up, in fact crime is very low in switzerland. and people have jobs. even junkies have jobs. yes, they can be productive, as long as they do their thing on their own time and dont interfere with the job.

but mabye americans are not capable of doing that, the government already thinks we cant take care of ourselves or manage our lives.

Lets face facts, If they were very smart, they wouldn't be cops in the first place."

Wow that is an intelligent statement! I guess not everyone can have your amazing career.

"Again I don't blame the police officers, Its not their fault they are too stupid to do the right thing."

Most police departments require a 2 year degree as a minimum. Some have gone to 4 year degrees. Most police academies run 6 months with another 6-12 months with a field training officer. Then there's the yearly continuing education hours that are mandated. Do a little research before you spout off next time. But maybe you are "too stupid to do the right thing."

"If they were very smart, they wouldn't be cops in the first place."

Ryan - you should be thankful that there are men and women who are willing to accept the challenge of trying to protect your sorry a$$ form the criminal element in our society. You obviously don't have the courage to handle their jobs.

scales67

"If they were very smart, they wouldn't be cops in the first place."

Ryan - you should be thankful that there are men and women who are willing to accept the challenge of trying to protect your sorry a$$ form the criminal element in our society. You obviously don't have the courage to handle their jobs.

Too many cops are tools of the oppressor. That's not protection they're giving you. That's control.

Ryan-1884167 "If they were very smart, they wouldn't be cops in the first place."

Not a very smart statement from you, pal. I can see you crying for help if an intruder with a gun is in your house. I bet you don't get along with your neighbors either with an attitude like that.

Ryan,

You're an ASS.

Thanks

By your comments, Ryan, you don't appear to be very bright, so by your rational you should sign up. Cops have a very dangerous, thankless job. And a Taser is a less-than-lethal weapon, it's not a non-lethal weapon -- there is a chance of death. But it gives the cops a chance to disarm a person who is a threat without killing them. So take the Taser away and use what? Just shoot her outright?

Ryan- good post.Question- why did they just not shoot the dirt near her.Would have not tasered her, frightened her would probably be around today

Answer: Police don't shoot to "frighten". If you have your gun out, you are in fear for your life/safety or that of another. What happens if while you are shooting to frighten her, she is shooting to KILL you? Well at least your family can say, "yea my Dad/ Husband/ brother /son or mom/ sister/ wife /daughter really was a good person to the end. She tried to warn or frighten that old lady right up until the end.... of their life.

Let's just see!

These are news items I found in less than a minute.

Today's headlines: Clackamas County sheriff's authorities had multiple complaints about cop who shot wife, friends and self; University of Washington fans still talking Terrence Jones let down Clackamas sheriff's office prevented DA from helping investigate deputy, memo says Deputy's arrest adds a black mark for Clackamas County Sheriff's Office

Clackamas County jail deputy arrested on sex accusations

Clackamas sheriff's office prevented DA from helping investigate deputy, memo says

Now it seems there is a lot of crime in Clackamas County. There were many murders, sex convictions of rape and sodomy against a 55 year old Woman, yes, woman and some news about a woman, a certain Phyllis Owens who was just release from the hospital following pacemaker surgery.

The Sheriff's office reported that she has a hospital bracelet on her wrist at the time of her killing.

AFTER killing the woman the Sheriff's Office interviewed her neighbors who said she had been in deteriorating mental condition.

The man she "allegedly" waved a gun at was the manager of the mobil home park where Phyllis had lived for some number of years.

Det. Strovink said that under police protocol, deputies likely would have been justified in shooting her, but recognized that she was frail and tried to use a less-lethal solution to defuse the situation.

"I think they showed a lot of empathy and compassion," Strovink said. "The deputy out in the open, in particular, put himself at great personal risk. But there is no doubt the woman's death is a tragedy."

Yeah Jimbo, I'd say killing an 87 year old woman right after she got out of the hospital doesn't look too good; but, nothing much does in Clachamus County.

The Sheriff's Office is under State and Federal investigation for corruption and obstruction of Justice. Along with all the members of this fine force who are currently under indictment I would say it was a bad day to kill an old lady, gun or not.

Ten minutes of investigation wold of saved a life and got some needed help for this woman.

Like Detective Jimbo said, they had the right to cap her right on her porch and there would of been no investigation. So there liberals, they have the right to drop you in your tracks if you "give them a protocol." Just that simple.

It is amazing what you can find out in a couple of minutes if you care to. trouble is, you have to care to.

This is no accident. The Police acting like criminals and the real criminal being set free or being allowed into America by the millions and pay them to stay here while they wait for us to catch them. Think all that dope comes here and no one is being paid off at the top. CIA has sold drugs since at least the Vietnam War to pay for their "Black Ops." Good old Ollie North was bringing so much cocaine to the US that the tarmac at a number of Air Force Bases cracked from the weight. It is a bad inside joke about the firm. That is how Reagan got the money to buy the F-4 Phantom parts for the current Iranian government. It costs plenty to run black ops and using Americans as their personal cash machine is just the American way.

So what does all this have to do with a lady who picked the wrong day to be alone. Nothing. That is just how much Americans care anymore and when martial law is declared at some day soon you all will stand there with your jaw dropped and say " how did things get this bad."

Just let some pansy like Ryan or fusseltier get mugged or robbed and see who he calls... The so called "stupid police". Ryan its people like you that make me sick! I have been law enforcement for 12 yrs. and had to help pansy liberals like you who couldnt fight their way out of a wet paperbag. If you dont want to get die, dont go waiving guns at the police!

The woman was waiving a gun around in the presents of police officers. I know cops embellish the truths to make them look justified in their actions, however she was suffering from dimensia, it was unsafe for her to have a gun in her hands and could possibly have the gun go off by accident. In my opinion the use of a taser was the correct course of action.

What a stupid statement! I expect you are one of those people who relies on welfare and expects the Government to take care of you!

"I know cops embellish the truths to make them look justified in their actions"

Maybe you have been watching too many cops and robbers TV shows.

kingpaddy - As with everything else in life, for each bad event that occurs there is a good event. For every bad cop, there is one who has helped save a life. If you truly want to be unbiased in your post, perhaps you should be searching for positive cop stories as well as negative ones. You could have found as many good examples as bad during you "less than a minute search". Your time was wasted because your search doesn't prove a thing other than the fact that you are biased.

That's a pretty racist generalization.

Ryan-1884167

We love to make everything illegal in AAmerica, seems to me we should outlaw teasers.

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Yeh Ryan let's outlaw teasers????? Now if you are referring to tasers because someone died then you had better outlaw knives, rocks, beer bottles, crowbars, baseball bats and for good measure hands (choking). WOW the lack of intelligence on here is amazing.

Benjamin Gates

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My biggest complaint with your statement (sharing the wealth) is that I have yet to see "Mr." Obama with his 5 million income last year go out on the street and share all of that with the poor. Same goes for all the Hollywood types (Michael Moore especially) that all talk a good talk but never walk the walk. They just whine about it like you do. There are a very few (like Brad Pitt) who actually put their money where their mouth is. The politicians are even worse. They all contribute to a few charities but they never give until they are living without their big homes and fancy cars.

There are also lots of people in those bad neighborhoods you refer to that pull themselves up and get themselves out dangerous neighborhoods. So don't judge everyone by your lack of standards......

Yep, lets outlaw grapes, peanuts, hotdogs, popcorn, and cars. And because it kills people daily lets outlaw stupidity!

OK, wow. I do agree with Benjamin Gates. I don't think i could have said that any better. You are right there is a class thing going on here. These conservatives really love their police. I have been harassed by the police my whole life. Its awfully easy for those who haven't been harassed to put my comment down. These are the same people who live in their summer hope, Quit content with leaving well enough alone. I will not. I will stand up against teariny All the police do is harass the lower class. If you don't believe me ask the NAACP. It seems there is no justice for the poor in America

Hey Mr. danb-1987860, excuse me Mr officer, Stop terrorizing my people. You are not a member of the Gustavo. You work for us. Start acting like it. If you pigs don't like to be put down. Stop being cruel and unjust. Its not like corruption doesn't run rampid in our judicial system, and law enforcement. You need to start watching out for the little Guy. I would like to add, there are plenty of countries, that dose not allow their officers to even carry a gun, Those countries have a much smaller crime rate than we do. Take your gun away, I bet you wouldn't be worth a plug nickel.

Ryan-1884167

All the police do is harass the lower class.

Wow, I didn't know Charlie Sheen, Lindsay Lohan, Paris Hilton, Mel Gibson, Brittnay Spears, Tiger Woods and the list goes on and on are all in the lower "class". And before you whine some more I have had my share of time with local police (speeding etc.) and not once did I feel harassed (now maybe one time when 2 days after my husband died I was stopped for speeding and still got a ticket) but for the most part they were polite to me as I was to them. You just seem to want to play the victim and whine.

Im sorry but Charlie Sheen, and the rest of the folks you listed, are in the upper class. See my yearly income puts me in the lower to middle class bracket. I personally know what its like to watch the rich get free patrols. And when they come through my neighborhood, they treat us like animals in a zoo. Maybe you got the sweet treatment from those pigs. But we are the ones they lock up, to make you rich folks feel safe. When I get pulled over for a ticket, they aren't giving me any brakes, far from it. they want to harass me, and the often violate my 4th amendment right, of illegal search and seizure laws. They always want to tear my care apart, keep me detained on the side of the high way, and rundogs through my car. after they find nothing, they want to harass me for telling them how wrong it is to treat me differently, because of the way i look, or the way my car looks. They tell me i am not coaperating with them. As soon as they start messing with me, I pull out the video recorder, they don't like you to record their brutality's. But Im sure glad they are nice to you, mam.

Ryan-1884167

But we are the ones they lock up, to make you rich folks feel safe.

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Wow now you are really reaching. I live in a trailer park and listened to gun shots going off last night. You admit as soon as they start messing (are we referring to talking or beating up) with you, you pull out a video recorder and I bet your mouth starts going also. Showing genuine respect for another person usually gets you respect back. Sounds more like you have gotten a reputation as a trouble maker so that is the respect you get. Just like when I was a teenager my boy friend had loud pipes on his car and we were stopped several times over it but he never got a ticket just a warning because he was respectful. Now I know there are bad cops since one time (another city) he was pulled over and the cop didn't like teens so he hauled us into the police station, we both stayed respectful and the cop at the station made my boyfriend pay a fine because of the issued ticket, but then chewed the other cop out for issuing the ticket and making smart remarks to me when I helped pay the fine. So take a hint, remove the chip from your shoulder and try respecting another person just trying to do their job. You may really need that cop someday and find he is a pretty good friend to have.

Ya, I also live in a trailer court. For the most part, I keep my big mouth shut. I know that Law enforcement is necessary. I am not denying that. I would not want to live in a lawless America. I am not saying that at all. But I do have a problem with what has occurred to the 87 year old lady. I am simply trying to make the point, that some times the police do not seem to be working for us. I feel that they sometimes, not always tend to do more for the wealther of us. I cant say for sure that the 87 year old lady was rich or poor, I guess I sort of assume poor. I mean she didn't have a care giver their, that would indicate to me, that she may have not been rich. I wonder if that lady would have gone through this, If she had been the Mayers mother? I wonder if we were to inject Humanity into our law enforcement, If they would then worry more about saving a life, than stoping a crime. I simply believe that when I cop takes a life, he should be held accountable, same goes with the Taser company. Now maybe I do have an opinion, and maybe I'm not afraid to say it. This is America, land of the free, there is a very thin line between a trouble maker, and a protester. I will always protest against injustices, And there will always be people like you who call me a troublemaker. Tell the day comes when you need someone to protest for you, then I will be your hero.

Ryan - most people in this country are lower to middle class, that's why it's called middle class with "middle" also referring to "average". A much smaller percentage of the population is upper class to rich. There is no shame in being lower to middle class as we make up the backbone of our country. Considering your misspelling of words, misuse of words, and ignorance of the proper use of punctuation and grammar, it is quite apparent that you barely graduated from high school, if, in fact, you did graduate. No wonder you have the nerve to make the statement that "If they were very smart, they wouldn't be cops in the first place". You are no smarter than you accuse them of being. There is little wonder that you have a huge chip on your shoulder. Perhaps if you had made the effort to do more with your life, you would also receive more respect from others, including law enforcement individuals. Just like gmainco said, you have to give respect in order to receive respect.

Ryan-1884167

I would not want to live in a lawless America. I am not saying that at all. But I do have a problem with what has occurred to the 87 year old lady.

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Ryan it doesn't matter whether this lady was 47 or 87, waving a gun at people is going to get someone hurt or dead. She was a danger to herself and others. The police took the best option they had. A stun gun against a lead bullet.

I wonder if we were to inject Humanity into our law enforcement, If they would then worry more about saving a life, than stoping a crime. I simply believe that when I cop takes a life, he should be held accountable, same goes with the Taser company.

I guess you have never seen a cop work with a lost injured child or a women beat up to see their softer side. They try and do save lives every day but their main job is to protect and stop crime. You would be amazed what a cop goes through every time they have to pull their gun let alone use it. They are investigated by more than one board. As far as the tazer companies, why should they be held accountable for a stun gun any more than a knife company should be held accountable because someone used it to stab another person or I was so careless I cut my own finger off?

Ryan---"I simply believe that when I cop takes a life, he should be held accountable, same goes with the Taser company"

Law Enforcement is held accountable when a death happens by their hand. Especially the officer him/herself who had to use deadly force.

Hold the Taser Company accountable? That's like trying to hold the Firearms companies accountable for every gun related death/shooting. A gun or Taser is merely a tool used for the protection of another. The company cannot control how, when or where this tool is used, so how would you hold them accountable? And why?

Excuse me Dr. Grammar, I sure hope you feel important, sir. You must have a PHD in respect too, right? Sorry if I ruffled your feathers. I simply care for those our police brutalize. I find it funny how folks like you can stand behind the machine. Police use every tactic they can to dehumanise us, They use words like subject and perpetrator, These words are used to takethe human element out of it. For instance, they wouldn't want to shoot David in the back, so they shoot the perp instead. I believe it helps our police sleep at night. Now, Im aware that there is allot of cops out there who are kind, But look at the transit cop, look at the Rodney king beatings. Our police have a history of Brutality. If it was your front door they were kicking in, on a no knock warrant, i bet you would have a different attitude about it. Some of us are sick of being pushed around, some of us simply want to see the cops have to follow the same rules we have to. When they brutalize someone, whats wrong with them going to prison? There was a video on UTube that showed a warrant being implemented on a Columbia Missourihome earlier this year. The cops busted in the residence, and shot the owners 2 dogs. They also Brutalized the man, in front of his children. All for 3 grams of marijuana. I might add, that possession of this amount, in the state of Missouri, Is punishable by fine only. Ya, those pigs were stupid.

I believe if the tasers companys are selling equipment that is deemed non lethal, Then It should be non lethal. If they wanted to call them lethal, then I wouldn't have a problem. The fact is Those tasers are not non lethal. There has been far too many people dieing from them to call them non lethal. That is why I think they should be held accountable. When You bey a knife or gun, you know what your getting, but tasers are different.

Ryan-1884167

I believe if the tasers companys are selling equipment that is deemed non lethal,

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Ryan I am glad you seem willing to listen to some of what I am saying. Now just one more bit of info for you. Stun guns "do" come with warnings that they can cause damage as well as death. They are just the best we have right now instead of a gun with a lead bulletthat more often than not causes death. Thank you for at least taking time to read what I say. Needless to say I have a very good friend that was a cop for 30 years and said in that time he probably pulled his gun with the intention of using it if necessary about 10 times and was scared sh_tless each time. He also thanked the Lord each time because he never had to use it with dire results.

Ryan, Dumb-arse, please know the words you are trying to spell. We can continue to take away "force" from officers. Maybe we should give them squirt guns - that will make the bad guys quit their hooliganism! I can't wait until someone you know needs the help of these poor underpaid people, and they cannot use their gun, TASER (correct spelling) or even pepper spray. You will be the first one to sue them fr not doing enough.

police are not out of control, liberals blaming the police are out of control. What if an 87 year old was pointing a gun at you? You really think an old person is any less dangerous than a 30 or 40 year old with a gun? You apparently haven't spent time around some of these old people with dementia and stuff. I have seen them become violent as hell beating up people 30 years younger then themselves.

Liberals like you don't understand why crime is getting worse and worse in this country... Because liberals believe the rights of the criminal trumps those who are the victims! And the criminals are well aware of this.

What do you mean there was no reason? Do you think a bullet fired from a gun wielded by a disoriented old lady suffering from dementia is any less deadly than one from a gang member? They acted properly. Someone died. Im sure the officer feels as bad as anyone else. Its not like it was some gang banger. It was an old lady with mental problems and I bet that police officer is going to have some real issues to deal with. He did what had to be done though. Sometimes things end badly. Sometimes people die. It happens and sometimes theres nothign that can be done to prevent it. You can do everything right and still,things turn out badly. It could have been worse though. You could have had a dead cop AND a dead old lady from a couple of gun shots. (Thats the OTHER option if the taser is taken off the table)

There are times when tasers are used improperly becuase they are thought to be non-lethal,but this is not one of them. The choice was taser dart or a 40 caliber bullet. The choice they made was 100% right.

"once they got stun guns, they always use them, they think its the easy way to control someone."

Know what they did before tasers? They shot people, hit them with batons or used bodily force. But 99 percent of the time, before tasers, cases like this would have resulted in police shooting grandma. And guys like you would be on here whining how the police shoot grandma and that they need to come up with something like a taser. Tasers have actually saved the lives of thousand of criminals who would have otherwise been shot and killed(which wouldn't have bothered me one bit).

You watch to much tv!

A few bad apples give the other hundreds of thousands good cops a bad rep. All because the only thing the media reports is the bad stuff. Whatever happened to unbiased reporting by the news?

In this case there was no reason not to.

fusseltier, these officers did follow proper protocol. just a few years ago before the taser was invented proper tactics would have been to just shoot her. considering she threatened someone already, and "quickly" picked up the pistol in front of the officers i would say they showed extreme restraint by just tasing her. if that would have been a young person waving a pistol at people and the police we could all count the holes in their body right now. the only reason this is news is because of her age, just like that other granny who made national news by getting tased. had it been a young person mouthing off and pushing an officer he would have used his baton and adjusted their attitude

jay-593729

Liberals like you don't understand why crime is getting worse and worse in this country... Because liberals believe the rights of the criminal trumps those who are the victims! And the criminals are well aware of this.

Crime is worse because law is worse. All the effort to fight crime and it grows still. There is a clue here somewhere. Enforcement is mostly directed at the control of individuals, many of whom are seeking the expression of their freedoms which have been curtailed through law. The police have no interrest in stopping crime so long as they or their controllers benefit from crime as a red herring.

Crime is worse because parenting and self-discipline have gone down the crapper. Parenting went down the crapper with the so-called "Sexual Revolution" and the demise of the loyal, two-parent family. Self-discipline went down the crapper once the schools had to start dealing with all THOSE kids and their parents.

First off, this woman's ages is irrelevant. A gun is a gun and will do the same amount of damage whether it is fired by someone who is 7, 27, 47, or 87 and eveyone in between. Secondly, the officers used a stun gun, not a taser as someone said earlier, they had no idea that this would be enough to kill her. When faced with an armed suspect they can use their handgun, but didn't do that because they had no intention of really harming or killing this woman. Had she picked up the gun and started shooting, she could have injured or killed herself or others. I think they were acting totally within their duty to do what they did. Lastly, if she was suffering from dementia why was she left alone? There was obviously something wrong with her if she came out in mid afternoon asking why the worker was there "at this time of the night". Perhaps her family should be investigated for neglect.

Cowboy

A few bad apples? Almost everyday I read an article or see a story about a cop killing an unarmed person. Oakland anyone? They are completely out of control. Their motto should be "shoot first, deny later". They make me sick. Open your eyes people. They're killing people everyday and getting away with it because they have you brainwashed. You believe they are there for your protection. They're not. They're there for you destruction. They are there to ruin as many lives as possible every day. They truly make me sick. Serve and protect who? Eachother? The politician they're working for? It sure as phuck ain't us. I have absolutely no respect for those douchebag murderers. We need to protect ourselves from those assigned to protect us. In the state I live in, there was a dash cam video of a cop that knocks a guy to the ground. As he's laying there cowering, the cop proceeds to start beating him with his club. Beats him in the head. Beats him on his torso. Then the piece of sh!t has the gull to deny doing it. It was filmed by his dashcam in his gestopso car and he denies doing it. Pathetic. He should be in prison in GP. See how long they survive there. Man I loathe pigs.

Do you always apply such grand generalities to a class or group of people? I have been a police officer for 12 years, and carried a taser daily for about 8 and not once used it on a suspect or person outside of training. That being said, I realize that I could have to use it every day for the rest of this month and stand ready to if needed. You don't get to pick the calls you go on or the circumstances when you arrive. You just get it sort it out and try to keep everyone safe. Oh yea, then you get second guessed by people that have never been there or handled anything like this. It must be nice to have all of the answers when you have only some of the facts. You people complaining need to save your communities. Get up and get out there on the streets. Only you can save us all from the the evil cops (and ALL of them are). Go ahead, get up and go. You can start the police academy, go through field training and then ..... GET A CLUE people. Its not as cut and dried as you think. Not every story has a happy ending. That is the goal, but tragically not always reality. These guys tried to bring about a peaceful ending, but tragically she changed the outcome by picking up the gun.

Before you jump on my post understand that the sarcasm was intended. Hopefully you caught that. I understand and believe that there are some bad cops out there (they are a minority in number), just like there are bad electricians, plumbers, teachers, truck drivers, cowboys, meat packers and on and on). The difference is that when a cop does something wrong/ makes a mistake or bad decision, the Monday morning quarterbacks come out of the wood work and everyone wants to point out how it should have been done. Its funny though that most of these people really don't know what they are talking about. Its really not their fault though. They learned what they know from television. Here is a tip for you people that believe that stuff, and its free! TV is not real. TV stuff doesn't work in real life, so don't try to apply it. Thank you.

The police are trained in the use of tasers and know the risks far better than anyone on these forums. To say that there is no excuse for them to have used one in this incident, I have to ask you:

What qualifies you in making that assertion? You weren't there and I doubt you have the training and education to assess the situation to determine what level of force was warranted.

PG, thanks for doing the job you do! It is tough job and not one most people could do.

I build and maintain dispatch centers and I see the crazy stuff that officers get sent out to deal with on a daily basis.
The general public has no idea what goes on around them. I had no idea before I started doing the work I do now either.

TO be sure, there are bad officers just as there are in any group of people. But to say they are stupid and all corrupt makes me wonder what the hell they are smoking.

fusseltier

there is no reason on earth for police to use a stun gun on an 87 yr old woman.

Hey, fusseltier! I can think of one reason: if she was waving a GUN AROUND A POPULATED AREA!!!!!! Dumba$$.

Where did it say this 87 year old woman was a card carrying NRA member?

If you don't like the law, we do have an amendment process. Otherwise, shut your piehole. Some of us actually want to follow the Constitution since it's the law of the land. You liberals would rather pick and choose the rights you believe in, or ignore them altogether.

Princey is just spouting off the mantra of the left. He probably doesn't know what he is talking about and gets his info from mayor bloomberg (lack of capitalization deliberate) and the brady campaign.

yes where were the caretakers of this frail old woman? Perhaps we should prosecute her 60 her old kids or even her 40 year old grandchildren for not properly supervising her.

There is no legal requirement or responsibility for family members to take care of their elders. Nor do family members have any rights to force their elders to move out of their homes and into nursing homes against their will. If the elder refuses to grant power of attorney and to move, there is nothing the family can legally do. The only recourse is to have a court declare the person incompetent and appoint a guardian, which can take months.

sorry if my sarcasm wasn't clear... I just had to laugh at the poster asking where were the caretakers for a "frail" old woman.

Jay......."Frail" was quoted in the article. Do you know what frail means?

1. Physically weak; delicate: an invalid's frail body.
2. Not strong or substantial; slight: evidence too frail to stand up in court.
3. Easily broken or destroyed; fragile.
4. Easily led astray; morally weak.

So I suppose frail means though she could pick up a gun, she can't shoot someone?

Tell that to Trooper Mark Coates of the Texas Highway Patrol. He was shot and killed by an elderly man. Anyone who can pull a trigger can kill you, whether they are 8 or 88.

Sneak up and disarm a person with a hand gun? You have seen far too many John Wu movies. In this situation the only thing that you can do is talk them down or use force. The oldest person in the United States to kill a Law Enforcement Officer was a 97 year old great grandfather so don't let the word frail lead you to believe that they are incapable of taking another life. Trust me, coming from a person that has been tasered more than 30 times in his career it is the least damaging use of force option available out there today. The fact that this woman died after being tasered is a testament solely to her health and not to the effectiveness or safety of EDW's use in Law Enforcement. The same people who are complaining about the use of force would be on here complaining about the lack of response if this woman was allowed to shoot her neighbor or an area child because the responding officers waited in their vehicles so please stop trying to bash the response of the people who protect your life every day.

Well SAID Officer. The very idea of sneaking up on ANY person waving a loaded handgun around. Are we in the cartoons?? Even in the B movies they are coming up with more believable garbage than THAT garbage.

I live and work on the county where this occurred. I'd place my life in the hands of any Deputy here. I know exactly who's there for us no matter WHAT kind of demented individual is waving the gun, knife, or whatever the weapon of choice.

There is a process in place for reviewing such cases. Those Deputies will answer for their course of action and a Grand Jury will hear how they followed protocol, used the least amount of sensible force, and how she died of the combination of illnesses that was already killing her -- and very nearly got a backhoe operator killed.

OPTOMYST seems to be the only rational person on this site. Common sense and using a little thought seems to be lacking in the training of "law inforcement" officers........... protocol is robotic and gets people killed. How many times have you heard about the petty criminal or drunk trying to flee in their car and getting 88 pieces of lead put through their heart? Disable the car......... that's no fun. Holding a knife in a threatening way? 16 holes through their brain. Why wait for them to eventually put it down when it sinks in they are up against guns......... that takes too long. Happens all the time................. when in doubt, kill them dead. Disarm them AFTER there is no chance they will live. The tazer/stun gun option is great if the "victim" can be controlled quickly. I wasn't at this crime scene, but having a dementia parent in my home for 7 years does qualify me to say their "episodes" can easily be controlled with something as simple as an offer of icecream. p.s. they CAN be dangerous for a minute or so......... BUT YOU ARE NOT DEALING WITH A CRIMINAL!

optomyst, there are some here criticizing the officer for hiding in the bushes. So much for the "sneaking up" idea huh?

Lucy, Come back when you get a clue. What would you do if someone was aiming a gun at your kid or anyone else. Would you ask for a negotiator to come before that person pulled the trigger? Go take a Midol.

Grow up you would be the first to call on the police when you were being attacked. Police get killed in situations like this! The fault is with the caretakers and where is her FAMILY! Probably can't be bothered to take care of her b/c she is old.

People blaming the police for this event have no clue as to what officers have to deal with on a daily basis. You can't expect a crazy person holding a gun to not be problematic. Many forces do not have the equipment to deal with these situations better. The police probably had the rationale to use deadly force. She's somebody's family, BUT SO ARE THE OFFICERS FACING A GUN!!!

MarieBaar , were you there as this situation unfolded? Are you absolutely sure she was capable of using the weapon and that indeed it was in working condition, loaded etc. Your scenario doesnt seem quite accurate because apparently the worker that called was unharmed. Despite her weakened condition you have described they very easily tasered her despite the gun. Perhaps keeping a safe distance till her dementia as you called it to take its course and make it safer to approach her. Why the hurry, just cause the police could? Why is it in ppls minds that some forethought and care should be taken for delivering an electric jolt to obviously weakened and incapacitated ppl as you so carefully made your case on.

I am sure she was capable of using the gun, and here is why. She perceived a threat, and obtained an item designed to neutralize a threat. It wasn't like she grabbed a coat hanger and thought it was a gun. She grabbed a gun, and knew it was a gun.

Whether it was in working condition, loaded etc doesn't matter. Police have no ability to find that out before hand, and assuming a gun isn't loaded is a good way for bad things to happen. They also have no way of knowing what kind of health problems a person has.

Also, just because a person has dementia does not mean they are physically weak. I doubt I can find the link, but last year an elderly woman in a nursing home killed her roommate.

Edit: Found it. http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/12/11/nursing.home.killing/index.html

The worker that called was unharmed...so far. There was absolutely no way to know if he would stay that way. Also, I didn't decide to call it dementia, it was stated in the article that she had dementia.

You also spoke of paranoia, i guess she was right to be paranoid. The fact that you are unable to even envision envoking other police procedures other then force tells me much. They could have handled it much differently there is no doubt in my mind. Tasers are dangerous and misused.

Paranoia is a common aspect of dementia. It is possible that is part of what was going on. Lets say it was 2:30 in the morning, and the guy was an electrical worker fixing a power outage. Ok, it's reasonable someone would be suspicious or paranoid of someone outside their home at 2:30 am, however, a reasonable person would put down the gun once the police showed up. The woman had no reason to be paranoid of the police, after all they could have been responding to arrest the other guy. The police did attempt to talk to the woman, and she put down the gun only to pick it back up again. How many more times were they supposed to go through that before taking action? What non-lethal action do you think they should have taken?

For real, yeah, thier coffee break was long overdue. goodnite everyone, and plz lookout for your mothers,fathers and your neighbors . Regardless of age or health all life is precious.

Lucy, glad to know you haven't lived next to someone with dementia, paranoia and guns. May it ever be so. Having done so, it's not as rosy colored as you depict.

actually we don't know jack. We waste our time on this fruitless gab. Police work is for goons. I'd like to see constablulary brought back. Police VS Criminals kinda like Repubs VS Dems wasted time going through motions with no intention of changing anything, except for us.

So.... do I read correctly that Lucy's suggestion for the correct course of action was to keep a safe distance (from a handgun) until the lady's dementia took its course? Dementia... with the spells that last for hours... days.... sometimes years. And the "taking its course" means dying. That dementia?

Wade-1986720 #10,

What's the possibility that the taser fried her pacemaker ?

I don't think it would require a pacemaker. I have heart problems with arrhythmia on top. My Arrhythmia is controlled by medication but shudder to think of what a tazer would do to me.

Obviously, the taser put her over the edge knucklehead. They didn't say the taser didn't contribute to her death and this was all one big coincidence. Her health problems were the reason she couldn't take the taser. I'm guessing she wouldn't have been able to handle a gunshot either.

I shudder to think what an 87 yr old woman with dementia and a handgun could do to ME. I was IN Boring yesterday for about a minute and a half. It's not a big place -- outside chance a stray bullet could have come MY way. Lucky me that two cops responded. Sad that an already dying lady died. Yes. Sad. And if it were my own parent -- MY FATHER SUFFERS -- SUFFERS -- with dementia. And if he had a backhoe operator cornered with a handgun, I'd tase him right now. And he'd have done the same.

Derek - "knucklehead" -- excellent word choice.

Wade-believe article said she had a pacemaker- taser zapped it, and her at same time

Did you even read the article? The lady had a fricking GUN and was threatening people with it. It's a tragedy that this lady died, but you can't blame the cops. If you want to be angry, be angry at whoever is responsible for letting a demented 87-year-old woman live alone and have a gun, whether it's the family or the mental-health system.

This was a tragedy waiting to happen.

A gun fired by an 87 year old lady is just as deadly as when fired by a 20 year old gang member. Some advice, if you don't want police to kill don't pick up a gun after police asked you to put it down. Yes this is sad, but again these guys probably have families they want to return to and getting shot by some 87 year old lady who is losing her mind is not worth $40,000 a year.

AMEN. I wondered every night if my husband the policeman would come home safe or if I would get a call saying that someone..insert description...had shot him. NO the pittance police officers are paid isn't enough for them to willingly be target practice.

Really sick of panty-waste liberal Monday morning quarterbacks second guessing the man on the job.

Anna - please tell your husband some of us respect what he does and appreciate the crap that he takes every day for Peanuts. These morons have zero accountability. I hope and pray he continues to do his job without getting shot.

Police were never reported to be in control of the gun, so I'm not sure why you think they gave it back to her.

The worker called for help, and deputies arrived to find the woman on her porch, Strovink said. Approaching her, they talked her into putting down the weapon, he said, but she quickly picked it up again.

Yes let us not forget the rights of the criminal or violent person is more important than the victims or those protecting the citizens!

How many innocent people have been sentenced to jail over the years only to be released 20 years later when DNA test concludes they were really innocent? Perhaps we should not send anyone to jail as we could be sending an innocent person to jail.

Jay doesn't make much sense, or understand American law history, so let me have someone else explain the 6th Amendment to him:

First, it starts with British Common Law:

"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer," said English jurist William Blackstone. The ratio 10:1 has become known as the "Blackstone ratio." Lawyers "are indoctrinated" with it "early in law school." "Schoolboys are taught" it. "

And

"It is better than 5, 10, 20, or 100 guilty men go free than for one innocent man to be put to death. This prinicple is embodied in the presumption of innocence. In 1895, the U.S. Supreme Court, in a decision in the caseCoffin v. United States, 156 U.S. 432; 15 S. Ct. 394, traced the presumption of innocence, past England, Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome, and, at least according to Greenleaf, to Deuteronomy. [also, Alexander Volokh wrote a law review article on the issue]"

"A right to jury trial is granted to criminal defendants in order to prevent oppression by the Government. Those who wrote our constitutions knew from history and experience that it was necessary to protect against unfounded criminal chargesbrought to eliminate enemies and against judges too responsive to the voice of higher authority. The framers of the constitutions strove to create an independent judiciary but insisted upon further protection against arbitrary action. Providing an accused with the right to be tried by a jury of his peers gave him an inestimable safeguard against the corrupt overzealous prosecutor and against the compliant, biased, or eccentric judge..." -Supreme Court Judge Byron White

And the Find Law web site:

"The Innocence Project has now had some 100 death sentences overturned based upon post-conviction evidence. According to their study of the first 70 cases reversed:

• Over 30 of them involved prosecutorial misconduct.
• Over 30 of them involved police misconduct which led to wrongful convictions.
• Approximately 15 of them involved false witness testimony.
• 34% of the police misconduct cases involved suppression of exculpatory evidence.
• 11% involved outright evidence fabrication.
• 37% of the prosecutorial misconduct cases involved concealing exculpatory evidence.
• 25% involved knowing use of false testimony."

Ph yea, it says she put it down. SO they let her keep it?? And that makes sense to you???

No I think you helped make my sarcastic post. As there are innocent people who have been sentenced to death, perhaps all those who are sentenced to death really are innocent and thus we shouldn't send any of them to jail.

"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer,"

Well I hope those 10 guilty persons move into your neighborhood and not mine! Especially if most are sex offenders and you have young children.

I'm sure in your fantasy world all the bad guys and only the bad guys go to jail and all the cops are innocent as sugar plum fairies.

Tom - It doesn't say anything about how far away from the woman the police were standing, or how far away she was from the gun, or how long she set it down. If she only set it down for a few seconds, right next to herself, they wouldn't have had enough time to pick it up.

Marie, you may indeed be right. That is a fair point.

I should give the police some benefit of the doubt.

But it still doesn't pass the smell test --to me anyway. And it certainly doesn't help the poor woman -or the police.

Something to think about too is that there is a 3rd party witness to all of this - the guy working on the water main. His account and the radio traffic (which is usually time stamped) should be able to fill in the time frame of things, and paint a clear picture of how fast everything happened and how much time the police officers had to react.

I'm with you, Tom. There are just too many reports of tazer abuses. I am very concerned that with the huge aging population coming on, that there will be more and more incidences where tazers are used inappropriately. Between the aged and those with mental disorders being in greater numbers these days, it seems like more officer training needs to be implemented. Actually, I wonder if a senior citizen volunteer program might be of benefit to work with the police around senior issues. I have heard that some communities have even lodged senior citizens in secured housing rather than jails, as seniors often are disabled and are on medications that are difficult to manage humanely in a jail setting. Really, law enforcement needs to get a lot more creative.

Dear Tom, your feelings are very valid. In reference to the 11 year old special ed student, however, I beg to differ. I work with special ed children, the ones so damaged that they are not capable of being mainstreamed. There are 2 situations in particular that stand out. This young girl was a beautiful child, and you would never know by looking at her that she had pollups growing on her brain that affected her behavior. You never knew when she would have an episode, and she was outrageously strong during those times. Other times she was sweet and docile. One time, however, after P.E. outside, during which time she loved to rollerskate, I sat her down to work at a center, but first, needed to remove her rollerskates. Have you ever been knocked nearly unconcious by being kicked in the abdomen, chest and jaw by an abnormally strong person wearing rollerskates? It isn't fun. The second situation was when we took a group of students (she was included) on a hike to a nearby fast food place. When she started to act out in the restuarant, I was assigned to walk her back to school. I held her hand, even as she repeatedly tried to dart out into the oncoming 4 lane traffic passing us at 40 plus miles per hour. We were passing the local park, and I ended up tackling her to keep her safe and rolling around in the bushes with her, trying to gain control over her without hurting her in any way. It wasn't her fault, she didn't understand, but all the public passing in cars would have seen was this 30ish woman assaulting this beautiful young child who seemed to be fighting for her life. And I could just see the patrol car pulling up and pulling me off of her and her running into traffic and being struck and killed...I prayed like never before for strength to hold and help her. Thank God that the teacher in charge of the trip sent an male assistant after us, and he got there while I had her pinned in the bushes. Things are NOT always what they seem. I was lucky (God was looking after us BOTH) that I was able to hold her till he got there, but I was scared to death about what would happen if someone acted on what they perceived the situation to be. Having to roll up and deal in that situation would have been absolutely unbelieveable for the police...I probably would have been tasered for refusing to let her go, and all they would have seen was me "assaulting" a minor child...and if she had gotten loose, she was incapable of responding to any commands, but there was no way they could have known that. What would the right decision in that situation have been? I would rather have been tasered or seen her tasered if it saved her life. It was a situation fraught with difficult decisions. Until you are in it, you can't even imagine. As a cop who might never have dealt with those type problems, autism, all the different physical afflictions of these types of kids, God help them. They would need the wisdom of Solomon. I'm just saying...

P.S. Tom...she was only 13 years old and could, on any given day, in one of those states, have kicked my butt. And I've had training in how to take these kids down without harming them, but I'll tell you, it could take two to three of us sometimes in order to make sure we didn't hurt her in ANY way. And I'm no lightweight. Her strength was affected by what was going on with her brain. Not physically visable to the naked eye, but there, none the less!

tom the tory, are you taking crazy pills or just screwing with us? first of all police officers operate under the banner of their local municipality or the state so calling them mercenaries is pretty stupid. second, no police officer has ever water-boarded anybody so if you have proof do tell. police officers have no way of telling if someone has a health issue, a healthy person can withstand being tased multiple times with no long term effects; in fact every officer who carries a taser is tased in training. you speak of police as murderous thugs yet since the 80's almost every department in the country has switched from the kick ass and take names kind of policing to the c.o.p model which is community oriented policing. and the number one priority in the c.o.p model is to do everything by the book so assclowns like you dont get upset

I'm a former police officer of 16 years and I have an opinion on this matter. First of all, Tom is clearly a ridiculous hyper-paranoid jackass. That being said, I would also seriously question the tactics of these officers. That also being said, I will remind everyone that none of you can describe the situation at all because you were not there. My primary concern, however, is that it would seem that if an 87 year old lady with dementia put the firearm down, officers might have obtained control of it with some aggressive moves or distractions. I guess what I'm saying if I'm confident that I could cover 20 feet or so and take control of a loose gun before my grandmother could pick it up and operate it. But in that scenario I am assuming the 20 feet or so. We really don't know what happened and I caution all of you about making judgements on something you know so little about. I am as prepared as anyone to question this situation very seriously, but I don't have enough information yet.

Oh, and I never got the opportunity to WATER BOARD anyone as a police officer. Damn, I must have missed out. (what a moron!)

Anthony the former cop. I was an officer for 30 years and to think I could cover 20 feet to get that gun is absurd. You should know, through training, what a knife weilding assailant can do in that amount of distance. As a former supervisor I shudder at the fact you would have taken that chance with a firearm! Glad you aren't taking those chances now. Are you married? Did your spouse know you would take that kind of a chance? One strong point you made is we do not have enough info from a news article to make a sound decision. The article could just as easily read "Police Defend Selves and Unarmed Construction Worker Against 89 Year Old Gun Weilding Assailant." Nah, not juicy enough to draw attention of readers.

I was making that assessment based on the assumption that the gun was not in her hands at the moment. I am aware of the 21 foot rule. You should know that every situation has to handled on an individual basis and no rule or procedure can cover all of them to the letter. In this case someone had to take a chance and I sort of thought that was our job. Well, some of us think that way, some of us don't.

Tom - you are a waste of life; a true stupid-Sh&t. Please go live in another country or planet where your own demented views can be kept to yourself.

Lets get this straight people: IF YOU HAVE A GUN AND THREATEN SOMEONE WITH IT, YOU DESERVE WHAT YOU GET, INCLUDING DEATH.

PJ

I question your right to life, you seem very harsh and narrow minded in your views, I do agree if you have a gun and you are in your right mind you should get what you deserve, but death of another human being should be avoided if at all possible, it is very final. I deal with dementia patients everyday...you can talk them down...it takes time. But I agree if in the police officers mind she was a threat to other innocents then she should be taken down, but they knew what they faced when they signed up for the job, and they knew the pay scale, so don't whine about it now.

Did they handcuff her, have her face down on the ground and then shoot her in the back like cowards? IF SO, then the DOJ should investigate further. And you should be investigated for terrorist links, as well.

Ooorah! Newton. Imagine if she had been black and the officers were white. In this case they did not specify the races of the parties involved because it only seems important when they can make the police out to be racist. And you're probably right, DOJ would have gotten involved if she had been black.

dumbass with a computer.

I think they were more concerned about the woman having a gun and threatening to use it than the woman having dementia.

Not to mention at the time they knew nothing about her other than she was armed and threatened a person. Again the people at fault her are the family not the officers who responded and acted properly. If anyone should be sued it should be the family for neglecting the old woman causing the situation in the first place. Get a grip on yourself. You are part of what is wrong with America. Sue people for doing their job. You probably think the woman who got burned from coffee at McDonald's deserved the money she was awarded.

Gotta let you know, the dipstick woman at McDonalds money award was greatly reduced. The news does not report that part. look it up

Orionlil: You bet the family will come out of the woodwork citing all manner of lawsuits. Pity they couldn't have looked after the old lady in the first place. They are to blame not the police. None of this would have happened if she had not been left alone ! But as usual she was old and a bother and they were too busy for this poor lady. Why don't we hear that side of the story!

I hope the backhoe operator sues the family. But the family --if there is any -- are most assuredly tweakers and welfare recipients. That is why the matron is living in squalor in a trailer park in Boring. Well, was. More likely, they will loot her home and then flood the police agency with calls accusing each other of stealing their inheritance. You think I'm kidding? I've answered that phone. I've taken those calls. That's what happens.

Good one!

In today's world Andy and Barney would be dead by now. They wouldn't last a week in any town. Yes things have changed. People do not value life and are ready to kill in the blink of an eye. The police and even private citizens have to act in the blink of an eye to protect themselves of wind up dead.

Barney would have tased himself...

And just exactly was the contractor supposed to do? Wait to see if she was going to shoot him? Or perhaps leave and hope that she didn't shoot someone else? How bad would he have felt if she shot someone else and he could have prevented it by calling the police? Oh wait he did that!

I'm sorry that the lady is dead, but I do believe that the police acted appropriately to safeguard their own lives and the lives of others. This may sound callous, but sometimes bad things happen that we can't predict or control. I'm sure that the police feel horrible how this turned out.

SO....BHamler, if someone pulled a gun on you, you would not call the police, you would call one of their family members?

Some people are not to bright.

The contractor and police were right. They were both threatened with a gun and took the proper steps to stop the threat.

Maybe if the family had done their duty by taking care of her in the first place. How about putting blame on them for leaving her in that situation. If they knew she had dementia then they are at fault for leaving her alone in the first place. How about asking why the family members let her have a weapon in the first place. Why not place blame where blame should be, not with the police or the contractor but with the family. She is dead because they failed to take care of her.

Are you serious??? The contractor should have called the family? That's the dumbest thing I've EVER heard. Maybe he should have tried to talk her into giving up the gun with a fiber bar. Umbelievable the lengths some people will go to just to argue a point. Unreal. Your comprehension of the real world was lost when you drank the Kool aid. Do us a favor and don't leave the safety of your parents basement.

The "ridiculous contractor" was getting a PISTOL waved in his face by a woman who couldn't tell day from night! You don't think he should have reported this? You think he should deemed this OK and left a crazy (I apologize for this word) person in possession of a gun? Did you read your post before you posted it?

BHamster- Do you really believe that there is a master list of family members available for law enforcement to consult during incidents like these? Good luck with starting one by the way. Unfortunately, by the way the posts are shaping up, you either hate the police or appreciate the work they do. There is no satisfying both sides. The tragedy in this case was that an officer was forced to make a decision because a demented person owned a gun and was ready to use it.

BHamler - I will have my granny come over and point her .45 at your head; lets see what you think, idiot. It is a gun; it does not matter who is pointing it. She unfortunately got what she deserved.

Way not true.

As warren said, when a cop tells you drop it, then drop it. For all of you who say you cant stand cops, well try living in a world without them.They go to work everyday not knowing what is going to happen that day, Their families are never sure if they will see them again. My son is a cop, I asked him why he choose this as a career, He told me that he enjoys helping people. Everyone says that he is one of the nicest and politest people that you would ever want to meet. But when all is said and done, he wants to go home to his wife and 2 small daughters!

Mayberry doesn't exist dubious.

I agree save some tax payers money.

They had every right to shoot her with the service weapon which would have killed her for sure but they choose to not. Excessive force, not by a long shot. You try being a cop for awhile and see what you do when a weapon is pointed at you. One of two things, act quick or die quick, your choice.

Please show us all one incident where a person was tasered by a Police Officer for jay walking. Please. Departments across the US place very strict limits on the use of Tasers and all other weapons for that matter. There is very little excessive force in the US and this is certainly not one of those cases. Be reasonable.

A stun gun versus and handgun? You think thats excessive? Where do live? Utopia? I hope you don't have children. People like you should not be allowed to breed.

McSame - Excessive???? Really??? they could have, should have shot her with a crap-load of lead, but they chose to use less force, EVEN THOUGH SHE WAS THREATENING THEM AND OTHERS WITH A GUN! When will you stupid-ass people become accountable and quit blaming everyone else?!!!??

Your a cop, right?

Maybe next time she wont argue with the police and will accept her ticket and take it up with the courts.

Mrs. Harmon was arrested because she refused to follow lawful orders from a law enforcement officer. She then resisted that arrest and force was used to affect that arrest. Those choices were made by her not the arresting officer.

Go live in Mexico where you do not need to listen to authority! See how you like that third world country crap. Again - MORON!

Don't break the law then you don't need to worry about it.

Rodney King got we deserved. The other guys with him surrendered and didn't get touched.

Oh whaaaaaaaaa!

BLLV- i am sorry for your non-hearing status- but WHY were they asking you to stop.And if you are in your own community- I believe you can register your non-hearing status- might wan to follow that up

BLLV, I am a former officer in Michigan. If you are who I think you are, I remember when that happened. I also knew the officer in your case quite well. What he did was despicable and unforgivable. Please don't judge the rest of us for what that miserable excuse for a cop did. We all sided with you because he was the exception to the rule and a bad apple.

Just to clarify for the rest of you, if BLLV is the person I think she is, she was walking on the side of the road and the officer really had no reason to contact her. He was just a bully. He was also charged with a crime and committed suicide to avoid prosecution.

Anthony, it is the police system that is totally outdated. See www.amps.vpweb.com. Law enforcement and military system simply needed to be updated.