The Middle East is not a 'good neighborhood'...We have at least three nations with selected NOT elected leadership--Iran, Afghanistan, Israel and maybe Iraq... TO trust Karzai and his brothers is a flaw that we will continue to pay for--he was Daddy Bushs buddy ad toady,,We need to figure out how to get Russia to dispose of them for the drugs being run over thier borders! Or we isolate him in Kabul--central democracy will never work in Afghanistan and the people despise him! Secret meetings with a person who is as despicable and untrustworthy as you are produces no results... Karzai should look down the barrel of the Iranian guns he is courting! We can nt 'win' in Afghanistan but we could prevail --if the leaders continue to undermine the Karzai brothers...the Afghanies will help with that!

All is not as it seems in the U.S. media. Read this article from the Counter Punch website:

June 25 - 27, 2010

General Perception

Putting Petraeus in Perspective

By PATRICK COCKBURN

General David Petraeus has a high reputation but his real abilities are not the ones usually attributed to him. He is, above all, a general with an acute sense of US politics combined with a realization of the importance of understanding the politics of Iraq and Afghanistan.

His great achievement in Iraq was to persuade Americans that they had won the war when, in fact, they were withdrawing with little achieved. He was able to sell the "surge" as a triumph of military tactics when in reality its most important feature was that Sunni insurgents allied themselves with American forces because they were being slaughtered by the Shia.

Some US diplomats are astonished at the willingness of Congress and the US media to accept the Pentagon's version of what happened and the belief that the same success could be replicated in Afghanistan. One American diplomat said: "I am appalled... It is like going back to pre-Vietnam days, when Americans accepted that what the military said was true."

An important aspect of the Iraq and Afghan wars is the degree to which US foreign policy has been militarized, with the State Department and civilian agencies playing only a limited role. This helps explain the lack of caution shown by General Stanley McChrystal in openly bad-mouthing civilians from President Barack Obama to the US ambassador in Kabul.

I first met General Petraeus in January 2004, when he was commander of the 20,000-strong 101st Airborne Division based in Mosul in northern Iraq. He was one of the few Americans in Iraq who showed any inkling about the ethnic and communal minefield in which the US had landed.

In Baghdad, the US envoy, Paul Bremer, had banned Baath party members from state employment, which meant that thousands of former Iraqi officers were ready recruits for the growing insurgency. General Petraeus was quietly sabotaging official policy. He was getting former officers to turn up in batches and renounce the Baath party and all its works. He made other astute moves. He prevented returning exiles from getting positions of power.

I asked him what would be his most important advice to his successor and he replied that it was "not to align too closely with one ethnic group, political party, tribe, religious group or social element".

This is what will be so difficult to do in Afghanistan. Already, suggestions that the Afghan government should talk to the Taliban is frightening members of the administration in Kabul who are not Pashtun. Last year, General Petraeus gave the impression that the Iraq troop "surge" could be restaged in Afghanistan. But conditions are very different in the Pashtun south and east of Afghanistan, where the arrival of foreign troops generates a powerful local counter reaction.

A problem for General Petraeus is that the Taliban appear to think they are winning and that their own "counter-surge" has been successful. General McChrystal's heavily publicized takeover of Marjah did not evict them permanently. When the US ambassador, Karl Eikenberry, and US envoy, Richard Holbrooke – both maligned by General McChrystal in the Rolling Stone article – visited Marjah a few days ago their helicopter was shot at and suicide bombers blew themselves up.

In Iraq, General Petraeus was able to take advantage of local political conditions to claim success for a military strategy that was mostly an illusion. In Afghanistan, the problem is not that the Taliban is so strong but that the government is so weak.

http://www.counterpunch.org/patrick06252010.html

The estimated cost of these two wars to the American tax-payer will be over 1.8 TRILLION Dollars by the end of this year. Let's bring our troops home and use these much neeed resources here where we need them the most!!

AIPAC and Pentagon dictating foreign policy, invading and occupying Afghanistan, lying to the American public about the reasons for the occupation, cost THREE TRILLION dollars and BANKRUPTED America, and thrown it into debt forever.

We cant ever leave. If we leave, things go back to the way they were. I'll bet we are constructing plans for permanent bases in both Iraq and Afghanistan. That is the only way the citizens of those two countries would ever have the courage enough to resist Taliban influence

bodo,

Right, bring our troops home so the Taliban can take over again, support al Qaeda, and let them bring terror across the world from their base in Afghanistan.

We need to go in there with overwhelming force and break their will to ever fight us again. Give the generals the troops they need to get the job done, not 75% of what they need (as Obama did with McCrystal), give them 100% or more. What if we fought WWII like we are fighting this war? We would have LOST. The Germans would have laughed their asses off as they wiped us out. We went in with overwhelming force and kicked their butts. We didn't wait for them to shoot first. We shot and asked questions later.

Civilians in the war areas need to be told to leave, or they are at very high risk of being killed in the crossfire, or mistakenly killed as Taliban. Those that support the Taliban and al Qaeda should be told that their houses will be destroyed as punishment and survivors will be thrown in jail. The public's willingness to help the Taliban and al Qaeda needs to be broken. We need to tell Pakistan that terrorists in their country is unacceptable, and if they don't do more to stop them, then we need to go in there and get the job done.

Quick trials and executions need to be done at Guantanamo Bay also.

We can't simply leave and expect this to all go away. Remember 9/11! It was the end result of us having a pacifist president, Bill Clinton in office for eight years.

Alan: It's a fact that there are now very few al Qaeda fighters in Afghanistan and Iraq. The majority have moved operations to places like Somalia and Yemen. If we are really serious about going after al Qaeda, let's attack them where they really are. Yes I remember 9/11. I also remember that it was also planned and executed by Saudi citizens while G.W. Bush was in office..

Oh, and to pay for this, we should demand the some of the profits from metals mining we are going to help Afghanistan develop go toward the billions we are spending for them to have freedom. They just discovered that Afghanistan has vast amounts of natural resources, originally discovered by the Russians years ago, and extensively studied by the USA recently.

bodo,

So, that makes it Bush's fault? That is BS! And I wish you liberals would quit blaming Bush for everything that went wrong. I thank God that Bush was in office and fought back. If Gore was in office, we would have been attacked again on our soil repeatedly because he would have not fought back.

I agree that we need to go after them in Somalia and Yemen, and in any other country they are in. The US barely has the ability to fight two wars with the current military structure. Cut-backs in the military under Clinton and prior presidents prevents this.

Bodo,

In case you didn't read the article, al Qaeda is in Afghanistan more than you think. Read the last three paragraphs of the article.

Karzai is probably going to have a lot of talks with various leaders since it was recently announced that Afghanistan is sitting on about $1 Trillion in minerals. That discovery was only in one area, so there may be more.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Afghanistan/us-geologists-discover-wealth-mineral-deposits-afghanistan/story?id=10909407

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37680111/

Really, read this one. It's probably a button pusher since the justification for giving Japan main mining rights is that they helped Afghanistan so much in the past few years - please read:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37803781/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

bodo1152, I've read that both the Iraq and Afghan wars are estimated to cost this country $3 Trillion by the time they are over - and that probably doesn't cover long-term expenses for on-going care of those severely wounded or affected by their active duty there.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 'secret' meeting had to do with those mineral deposits.

alan

with your wisdom if you'd been in chage we'd have lost in Grenada.

Don't blame Bush Jr. but blame Bill Clinton....? Wow, rightwingers have really lost their minds. Boy, they're really good at pretending to know what they're talking about but in fact their thinking has only helped the US to implode here and abroad.

Give it a rest, guys. Go take a vacation, or something.

All of the "experts" know, in fact I even heard McCain say it this morning on Meet The Press, that there are only a handful of Al Qaeda fighter's in Afghanistan, where the majority have moved from the Pusthuns and are also hiding in areas like Bannu and Peshawar. Jbad is a bad place to be folks!

It's time to make like the Brits and Russians and get the hell out of dodge! It's an absolute waste of man power, money and other resources for the objective. The goal that was set by the previous administration, that Obama has doubled down on is absolutely insane. Sure, Afghanistan will probably return to be a hot bed for terrorists to train, but at this point it makes no difference where they train, because there are cells training right here on American soil as we type our little opinions on Newsvine. Training isn't only about rolling around in the dirt and shooting AK-47's. It's also about gathering intelligence and studying movements and infrastructure. The sooner Obama and everyone on the Hill realizes it, the sooner my brothers and sisters over there fighting the good fight can come home. Iraq is still a mess and Afghanistan is.....well, it's Afghanistan! Let's get out and leave Karzai to fend for himself!

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!

Two fu**ing posts into the discussion and the ignorance of the Liberal Progressives jumps up and the "Bush did it" mantra begins. You people are incorrigible. You have absolutely NO CLUE what you're talking about yet you insist on embarrassing yourselves on a public forum.

I'm sure you all forgot about the November, 2009 elections in Afghanistan where the Obama administratons manipulation of the elections was documented all over even by the Lamestream Liberal media. On August 29, 2009, Time magazine ran an article suggesting that "a contested election outcome could "suit the U.S. purpose". The day after the election, a tense meeting took place between the U.S. special envoy to Afghanistan, Richard Holbrooke, and Afghan president Hamid Karzai, with sources describing the meeting as "a dramatic bust up" and "explosive" On the same day as the TimeS article was run envoys from the US, France, Bitain and Germany met and according to The Times, a French official said that Holbrooke wanted a run-off in order to chasten Karzai and show him his power was limited. In an interview with Le Figaro released on September 7, 2009, Hamid Karzai accused the United States of trying to undermine him in order to make him more malleable. Need I go on?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I DON'T think Bush was still in office in August 2009. But according to you brainwashed Obama sniffers your thin-skinned boy-toy in the White House is never involved. Read some history, quit listening to Rachel Madcow, Keith Olderman or Robert Gibbs, they're polluting you little brains with socialist propaganda.

“At one point during Khrushchev’s visit, the Soviet Premier boasted to the Agriculture Secretary that Benson’s own grandchildren would live under Communism. Benson replied tartly that he expected to do all in his power to assure that Khrushchev’s and all other grandchildren would live under freedom. The Communist leader then responded in essence, according to Benson’s personal account: "You Americans are so gullible. No, you won’t accept communism outright, but we’ll keep feeding you small doses of socialism until you’ll finally wake up and find you already have communism.” (Soviet Premier of Russia Nikita Krushchev, to Secretary of Agriculture, Ezra Taft Benson 1959.)

1.15- great post- I also think it is interesting the change of karzai garb- no longer the hat, now a turban, and Haqqani oriented
For once, Obama has done something- looks as though he has changed the puppet Karzai into a militant- did public removal of McChrystsl aide in this- could have been in White Hpuse, no press releases.He has played into hands of our enemies- are they also his?
Once again, there has been sad action, if any by Obama.The pakistanis were supposed to be hanging on to radio news- were helped by White House. I feel sorry for every field soldier who has been caught in the cross fire

Bush screwed up in many areas but Karzai is one of his worst mistakes. If Karzai is providing the militants and Pakistani military with information about US operations in Afghanistan the US should treat him as an enemy combatant.

America has imposed Karzai for its own interests, now you cant cry on Karzai. In my personal opinion taliban has no existence, all the groups are either created by America in the time of war with Russia or the reaction of those groups.

I know one thing that we cant controle any culture by guns. People of U.S are always worried for the aggression of American policies.

FACTS ARE MUCH DIFFERENT FROM THE PICTURE IS BEING PORTRAIT ABOUT AFGHANISTAN.

Sorry to say, common man in Pakistan don't have believe in ALQAEDA. They want to be live with peace harmony and ease.

The key point which is being neglected from the time of USSR war, is that the culture of These Afghan and Tribal areas should be regarded, and understand.

U.S strategic think tanks should make some understanding about the life style of Afghanistan, and should know, they can win the hearts without loosing there troops.

What will happen when we leave Afghanistan? Leaving that country and its people to the mercy of the Taliban would be inhuman…just as it was for the people under Hitler or Saddam Hussein. Warlords have tortured the people; raped and brutalized women and the Taliban have subjected their own brand of torture on Afghan villagers. It will always be the women who suffer more. What if it as YOUR mother, sister, cousin or child? Is this what we want to leave the Afghan people with? Why must we stand aside as brutality reigns rampant on a people?

These guys (Bush&Cheney) back in the day would have met their end at the end of a rope.God,i loved the good-old days.Too bad we live in this @!$%# hole now.

It was a mistake to take McChrystal out of his Top US Military General Position. He knew Karzai. We know Karzai; a very untrustworthy 'character".

Now it will be Gen. Petraeus, who will have to form a strong bond with what was left to him. Karzai. Karzai may have already turned the corner against cooperating with the US and our orders for them.

We have trained their illiterate people, traitors, the Taliban, and other Terrorist groups to fight the war in Afghanistan. What a waste of US human life, what a waste of our Military's time. Warring against Tribes is a useless project. It will never change. Barbarians.

Obama will push on to prove he can win this war. At what cost? This war will drawn out further with the lack of solid leadership from the Afghan Government.

It was a huge mistake to change "horses in mid-stream"---our US Military Generals.

Now when will this war end, when will it begin. All over again.

9 years old. Obama has got to give up his control as Commander in Chief and get out of there. He has the Power.

This truly is another Viet Nam--what is the purpose of this war--fighting for Opium fields, and laundering money to the Afghan Government.

What do the American people get out of this?. It did start out as a War to fight the Terrorists, right? It is a fight for the rights to own poppy fields.

Good Grief---

Here is a clue dart for some of you "anti - Bush, Pro Clintonite" uniformed liberals. Do a google search on June 25th, 1996 (CLINTON ERA) and read what happened and HIS "PANSY_ASSED Response". As someone who was there, I can tell you, CLINTON is not exactly high up on the Moral Food Chain. Especially someone who "DID NOT HAVE SEX WITH THAT WOMAN', but left cum stains on her dress... OK SLICK WILLY who didn't inhale either... Prolly all that oxygen deprevation caused a bit of dain bramage. But you liberals think HE was so much the savior. From someone who has seen the working end of a truck full of fertilizer, just like Clinton, its 100% sh1t... Bush wasn't the cause of Al Qaeda - who incidently was the mujahadeen, the same group WE armed under Reagan to fight the Soviets, where we CUT AND RUN and left them with their asses in the wind. Homeboy Billy however had a chance to end 9-11 before it started with a CIA hit on Bin Laden, but passed up the opportunity... So much for the savior of America

If Karzai is making deals with the Taliban/Al-Queaida, there isn't any proof of that yet.

Why is it so hard to understand Pakastanis are and never were any help? Why on earth did we rely on their help to begin with? expl: here in the states, dea doesn't help the crips to kill bloods or vice versa and then call themselves big on justice. So wy in the world would the US think that a middle-east country would help the west destroy a brotha middle-east country? duh.

As far as the presidents crap: Clinton only had one terrorist that gave the US a problem at the NATO building. The extremists that did the REAL damage was while Bush was in charge. He's a war criminal because of his invading countries to set up a pipeline, as opposed to bring justice to the Taliban in Afganistan. Plain and simple. To top it all off, he couldn't control the angry countries, Afgnstn nor Iraq, so his oil mission failed. He waged war for profit , lost and after having our soldiers die for what was supposed to be patriotism, is now resting and relaxing somewhere living off the whatever he pocketed during his administration.

I remember someone saying to Bush just after his victory over Gore," I believe that GOD is much closer to the white house now that you're in office." During the Bush administration, GOD was furthest from.

Obama: wants to pull out by july of '11. That's a while from now, I know. Back when Bush was in office, almost half of this nation wanted the troops out of Iraq, to finish up in afganistan and bring our troops home. Including myself. Everybody and their grandmothers were saying that victory over the war was going to be long and hard, and that the lower half of this nation is un-American or un- patriotic. NOW, Obama has a pullout date where the Afgans will be ruler of their own country again and the troops will be able to come home in about a year. NOW, the Obama hatters, whom I still say are just racist, say the dates not soon enough. That it's too long of time 'till we pull out.

This is total two-faced bull sh*t, people. The Republicans and Obama hatters, who I still say are just racist, are showing true un-patriotic negativity in their responses. True un-American. If supporting this decision really means we have to look over our shoulders from here on out then so be it! I'd rather have to watch my back than to follow the two-faced bullsh*tters that don't deserve to be calling themselves Americans.

this needs to not be a time of internalized USA hate- lets leave the race and parties out of these posts- nothing is accomplished with racist remarks, or politicizing- can we not move as a country

Exactly

Bush should've got the job done instead of trying to make a magic oil pipeline. He should've gotten the job done, especially after he failed to do the pipeline. I honestly would've forgiven him if he at least did that before he left. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have let it go, but I would've forgiven.

As far as the freedom disappearing stuff, you might be a little paranoid. but if you're refering to maybe our national security because pulling out means we have to look out for another attack, you have point.

But to be honest, we've been lied to about this war against terror that was just an exuse to wage war for profit. And we've had rights, liberties, and hourly wages slowly being taken away from us with all leaders poinitng fingers. Honestly, if this is one of the first steps to getting back on track, then I've got no problem with having to watch over my shoulder from here on out.

I'd rather watch my back while our countries leaders did whatever they could against the extremists, than to follow two-faced leaders that are truely un-American.

America backstabbed Pakistan enough times. Pakistanis would be stupid to believe American claims of "ally" Pakistanis know Zionists in Congress are their sworn enemies.

What $8 billion Snapple? Were you in USAID fudging numbers for bush that you know this figure.

US hasn't even paid Pakistan in full for the CSF (coalition support fund: for transporting troops and supllies by karachi to kyberpass / quetta etc). Instead of "waste" there, where we do get something in return, why not 'YOU' mr. american and some media ask why we send billions to egypt, jordan, israel or even columbia for siting on their asses and doing squat? Will Jon Stewart have to ask this question as well????

Karzai has taken control after gen. Mc Chrystal was removed from the picture. He should have consulted with gen. Petraeus. It's a good question: Did he? And more important question: Did he speak with President Obama before he spoke with Pakistan? Who is waging war and helping in Afghanistan, the U.S., or Pakistan?

My question is if they're secret, why are we reading about them?? I guess their Opsec is about as good as ours (announcing the start of offensives,etc.)!!

Well, the first question tt you need to ask yourself is why america is in Afghanistan the second question is how true and valid is the answere you get !!

American man and american women are all being lied to ,so y dont you wake for atleast a day and realize that teh real world has beeen kept away from from the reality !

As outrageous as that sounds, it's not a bad idea. None of these countries are our friends. This article demonstrates that. Not even the Russkies who invaded Afghanistan in the '80s could win and they lived right nexxt door. Let them all go to Allah now, F*ck em all!

helpinghand. You exposed yourself as an Israeli.

lol

helpinghand. You exposed yourself as an Israeli.

How did you arrive at that?

a cat and mouse game; where the cats' and mice/ Karzai and company are playing the Americans for revenue and rebuilding of their Countries..a whole New different approach in our policies would definitely Change current events..we cannot appease these nations with the white glove treatment..things must be done to the next level; Conqueror get Out !!, I say..the vast waste land s/b aerial monitored and attacked aerially where needed..cities s/b controlled by ground troops..we must seize, all their weapons, sources etc., my opinion......

Karzai and his brother, the drug lord. 'Kill, Kill them all, let God sort them out.' (Stephen King)

njmick. Assclowns like YOU are why other countries are building NUKES. They have figured out the only reply to American threats is a nuke. And they are right.

Them living in the 16th century is not the problem them wanting us to is.

16th century? Where did you get that? They live in the 7th century when MoHAMed came on the scene.

Israel lives in 3000 BC with its stone age religion.

I was being kind and just following Citizen X's lead.

It has been said that if Islam would lay down their arms their would be peace in the Middle East

but If Israel lays down their arms there would be no Israel.

Israel lives in 3000 BC with its stone age religion.

This thread is about Karzai hplding secret talks with the Taliban.

How did you get Israel into this?

Please leave your Israel bashing and hatred for another thread.

If you don't have anything intelligent to say, don't say it.

Obama's putting a date on withdraw from Afghanistan is one of the most stupid things he has done, amongst a long list of stupid things. It only makes the Afghans think that we are going to abandon them.

and that differs from the dates Bush set to leave Iraq how?

and that differs from the dates Bush set to leave Iraq how?

Do you see Iraq and Afghanistan as the same? Time tables and mile-stones the same?

replytoj001

replytozero

I see alans statement of Obama announcing a withdrawl date as being stupid is exactly the same as Bush announcing a withdrawl...

I didn't see alan mention milestones - now you can add your own words to alans post if that is what you need to spin in how you want!

charles stark cant see the concentration camp called Gaza run by Israelis even if it bit him in the leg. He says freedom loving while freedom hating Christian radicals with guns occupy Iraq and Afghanistan.

you are not a freedom lover you are a slave of hte satanic society built for you to get druged and do what ever they want you to do .. wake up and pay your taxes so that your government can fight the war for hte sake of Satan !