And just another though....If they can give sainthood to some why can't they give demonhood to others?

It is the Catholic Church. Hypocrisy is the only think that you can accept. And to your question about women. There are few men that would first be believed if they said that a woman abused them. Secondly, it has nothing to do with the cover up by the head of the world's biggest organized and richest religions. This pope, as a cardinal, did nothing in this case. While I believe that it is stupid to have sexual restrictions on a human being, the dumb-ass Catholics impose it on themselves and then cry when their leader does nothing. The Catholics are the most insidious, pompous and bombastic of all religions but want to mute this hideous practice from the pulpit. Remember, more wars are caused because of religious reasons than anything else. My guess is that priests will keep abusing boys and that the church will do nothing including holding this pope accountable for his inaction.

This is truly sick. BUT what is even sicker is that "They told two police departments and the district attorney" AND nothing was done................So, it seems that not only the Catholic church is at fault it is ALSO our police and justice system that has a similar sickness of benign neglect or incompetence.

Should we not be following up on who was contacted and why they did nothing?

Very good question Runawaybull! However is it possible the Devil doesn't want them?

Father Murphy's true worth was as a fundraiser and the Catholic Church is not about to refuse any funds. It didn't matter if the priest saved any souls, didn't even matter if he destroyed souls, as long as he brought in the money. The Church worships money and the message is quite clear. Salvation comes with a price and all you have to do is pay for it.

when was the last time we heard of a female politician being accused of cheating on their spouse?

This blog is about catholic priests molesting young boys. I'm not sure how the jump was made to female politicians, but for the sake of your baiting, what makes you think that female politicians are the only ones not being tempted to drop their panties? If that is true as you assert, that must be the only group of women not willing to race a quarter to the floor.

In no way do I condone molestive female teachers nor was I trying to bate the subject, it just happens to parallel my curiosity of why female politicians aren't brought down by sex scandals like their counterparts.

I guess to stay on subject I should have asked why nuns seem to refrain from this type of behavior better than priest.

Infidelity over the past 20 years has risen more by women than men (about 50/50 now), but it is still consensual sex by two adults.

Chemically speaking we males seem to be strongerly driven than women.

Require castration to be a priest and solve this awful problem. JS

I agree with confundus. The Catholic church's sick cover-ups are beyond WRONG, but for law enforcement to ignore the issue is equally as wrong. The law applies to everyone - clergy or not!

I find it interesting that these deaf individuals, whose main barrier in life is communicating in a hearing/speaking world, were very vocal about it back then, only to be ignored. How gutsy of them to speak out at a time when people were much more inhibited re: talking of sexual matters at all, not to mention the stigma of having been sexually abused. The "deaf culture" is more direct in communicating on issues that the hearing/speaking world tries to side-step or handle in a PC manner (my experience with deaf clients and friends).

Law enforcement ignored its responsibility to its citizens on this, and allowed this man to continue molesting children for decades! How do such people live with themselves?

My heart goes out to these survivors and to the good and decent Catholic faithful who practiced their faith with sacrifice and integrity. They were all betrayed by the church hierarchy in a systematic and deliberate manner.

In the Gospel of Matthew 18:5-6 - Christ says that anyone who harms children would be better off to have a heavy millstone hung around their neck and drowned in the depths of the sea. Has the Papacy edited these words out of their scriptures?

Those in "leadership" positions are held to a higher standard than lay people . . . if not in this world, then certainly in the next. That the Pope and Bishops have not held their own to the Scriptures is deplorable.

This was a continuing criminal enterprise in some segments of the Catholic church. . . witness intimidation, pay-offs, cover ups . . . tragic.

Just when I think I've heard it all, a new low is hit. A father interviewed about his adult daughter committing suicide, after years of dealing with sexual abuse by her priest beginning at age 5, was haunting. The father was crying, not just because she was dead, but because she tried to tell him, and he slapped her around for daring to say such things about the priest. Now this, handicapped children abused, in part because of their extra vulnerability due to limited communication to the hearing world - beyond disgust.

These stories will continue to pour out as long as priests have testicles.

And that lead me to ask, WHERE ARE THE PARENTS? WHY AREN'T THEY PROTECTING THEIR CHILDREN? Surely they must have had some indication that something was wrong.

When I was in Catholic school they taught us that the priesthood was a calling from God. That no matter if you wanted to be a priest if God had not chosen you then you would never make it. In this there lies the problem. This obviously was a lie. Now that they have spread this bunk among their faithful they have tried to keep it under the rug as it blows their teaching out of the water. trouble with sweeping things under the rug is sooner or later the bump gets larger and larger and people notice.

And that lead me to ask, WHERE ARE THE PARENTS? WHY AREN'T THEY PROTECTING THEIR CHILDREN?

If you cannot trust your children to your pastor you cannot trust him at all!

But the point is, its a parent's job to notice when something is wrong with their child. It's true that sometimes the child will refuse to tell anyone, even a psychiatrist who carefully questions him or her. I believe this is called "elective mutism" but maybe it should be called "terror". Abusers often tell children that if they tell, not only the child but his whole family will be killed. I suppose a clergyman might threaten the wrath of God as well. However, this seems to be a case where NOBODY involved seemed willing to do anything. I definitely put the most responsibility on the District Attorney and the police, since it their whole job to protect the public.

I was raised Greek Orthodox (however, I've been an Atheist for at least 20+ years) and we too have priest, but ours are allowed to marry before they take their final vows. So we don't have the same issues as the Catholics do.

However, at the church I use to attend as a child the first priest daughter married a Jew, not that their is anything wrong with that, but her father IS a PRIEST. He retired.

The second grab a female parishner breast and sexually harassed his secretary. He was deflocked.

The third is a kid, just barely a Priest and is being ran ragged by the old ladies who run the senior center. I feel sorry for him, even though I don't believe in ANYTHING he stands for Religiously...

But at least the kids aren't molested...just saying

Require castration to be a priest and solve this awful problem.

As much as people believe that men do more thinking with the little head than the big, castration will have little effect on the perverts. The resulting loss of hormones has very little effect on the mental capacities that really control their sexual urges.

The experts say that castrating rapists only makes it more likely that they will do something worse, like murder.

Angela LD, exactly what point are you trying to make? That there are no child molesters among your faith, I very much doubt. I don't think there is a group of people in the world without a single child molester among them. I'm very glad the priest who assaulted that woman was "deflocked" though. I guess that means they took his sheep away?

Yes, I realized too late that I used the wrong word...Oh well.

MY point, and it seems your reading comprehension is a little off since I said I've been an
Atheist for over 20 years and I wrote about one of the Priest sexually harassing the parishioners and secretary, is that when Priest or religious leaders (whatever) are allowed to marry (or not have to deny their sexual orientation) you have LESS sexual predators come into the fold. I NEVER stated there were not child molesters.

I bet you were a *C* student in school?....

Yep, the cops and the DA did exactly that in this case. Perhaps they decided not to believe the boys because they were deaf?

I'd say that if you look at the role of the police as solving crimes and promoting justice, this scenario makes no sense, but if you regard them in their true role of maintaining the status quo at all costs, then the behavior is not only logical, it's commendable.

I've said this many times, and I'll keep saying it until I'm stopped. The institutions we fund with our taxes are the primary mechanisms used to oppress us. It's not a Democrat vs. Republican issue, nor even a conservative vs. liberal one, although I would say that unrestrained capitalism is a major factor, as they view labor input as simply another fungible quantity, with no human aspect. From this country's inception, despite the constant barrage of propaganda about our many freedoms, the working class in America has been anything but free. We're taught that we have freedom of religion, and that this is a precious thing, but don't the overwhelming majority of people simply subscribe to the same religion their parents observed? And isn't religious imagery used on a daily basis to promote and justify the twisted system which holds us in bondage by urging us to respect and revere these oligarchs? My guess is that there is no shortage of people who make a subsistence wage or less, and who have accumulated almost no savings or property of substance from a lifetime of toil, yet these same people would be willing to crucify me publicly for the mere suggestion that they are anything but free.

Even if that means condoning the sodomization of their own children, to which they turn a well-practiced blind eye.

It is the Catholic Church. Hypocrisy is the only think that you can accept. And to your question about women. There are few men that would first be believed if they said that a woman abused them. Secondly, it has nothing to do with the cover up by the head of the world's biggest organized and richest religions. This pope, as a cardinal, did nothing in this case. While I believe that it is stupid to have sexual restrictions on a human being, the dumb-ass Catholics impose it on themselves and then cry when their leader does nothing. The Catholics are the most insidious, pompous and bombastic of all religions but want to mute this hideous practice from the pulpit. Remember, more wars are caused because of religious reasons than anything else. My guess is that priests will keep abusing boys and that the church will do nothing including holding this pope accountable for his inaction.

David: Go beyond, "There is none so blind as those who will not see." Consider the delusional aspects of this sick institution. They "see" an invisible guy in the sky. They believe in, and pray to, a virgin, who gave birth to a man who walked on water and raised the dead. They participate in a thinly veiled cannibalistic ritual. The list of these insane beliefs is sickeningly long.

This is not blindness. This is a thorough and complete corruption of the soul and spirit. If there is anything that approximates a miracle in this "church" it is that it has survived to this day.

To those who are insulted and disgusted with this foul institution, do you ever ask why contributions that allow this insanity to continue are tax-deductible? This is a DIRECT violation of the First Amendment to the Constitution. The delusionals, pedophiles, and other misguided citizens who wish to support this abomination may contribute to this "church" or any other "church". That is a protected right. However, these ill-advised contributions MUST NOT be granted immunity from taxation. Doing so forces non-believers to subsidize these despicable institutions.

Then of course, there's the cops, the sacred cows of society. Pure dereliction of duty. No less and no more. When do we stop worshiping at their altar?

For as advanced as our society supposedly is, we have progressed much since before the Crusades. Many people have forgotten that at one time the catholic church was THE law. So it does not surprise me that they feel themselves as being better than most since they have a shared heritage. Our priests are "of the Lord" so they wouldn't be tempted to engage is such immoral activities and vile practices. Our police know the laws and thus would not be tempted to engage in illegal activities. Because these last two statements are taken to heart, many people turned a blind eye to the deaf accusers.

The leaders of religions get enlightenment from the study of a book written by man, edited and rewritten by man with a different agenda being pushed by each new version. How do the abusive clergy reconcile their actions with their god. If all that is required is to ask forgiveness, then it is conceivable that they could have carte blanche and keep asking for forgiveness or wait until they are on their deathbeds and only waste their time once by asking for forgiveness. And where do the victims fall out on this "forgiveness" thing? Why aren't the criminal and immoral perpetrators asking their victims for an opinion?

Sexually abusing a young adult under the guise of teaching them about the temptations of man is like me robbing a bank to teach them about the lapses in their security systems.

David, if the cops are the scared cows of society, what does that make the pope? He has covered up if not participated in the abuse of children for decades and has done nothing except transfer the pedophiles to a new flock of children to abuse.

[[but don't the overwhelming majority of people simply subscribe to the same religion their parents observed?]]

I'm not sure that's true anymore. I live in a working class neighborhood but practically everyone I know says some version of "I'm making up my own religion" even if they might belong to a church, temple, or mosque. How many self-proclaimed American Catholics refrain from using contraceptives? How many self-proclaimed American Jews are particularly observant or even attend temple except on major holidays? How many American Muslims actually get down on the rug and pray five times a day? The ones I know will even have a beer now and then. People still find church membership valuable for all kinds of good reasons, but they are rarely as trusting as they were 50 years ago. Also, it isn't unusual AT ALL to convert to another religion today.

[[Consider the delusional aspects of this sick institution. They "see" an invisible guy in the sky. They believe in, and pray to, a virgin, who gave birth to a man who walked on water and raised the dead. They participate in a thinly veiled cannibalistic ritual. The list of these insane beliefs is sickeningly long.]]

With the possible exception of Buddhism, Shintoism, and Confucianism, don't ALL religions believe in "an invisible guy in the sky"? (Sometimes it's a gal instead of guy, or there may be more than one of them. That hardly changes the point) Don't they all believe in miracles and practice rituals that look VERY odd to outsiders? Yet the majority of people on the planet consider their religion precious. You sound VERY intolerant toward the majority of humanity.

The police WERE called. Did anyone actually read the story? Notice something funny? The boys themselves told the POLICE and DISTRICT ATTORNEY, and THEY did nothing. Aren't law enforcement officials the ones who are responsible for arresting people? The Vatican can't do that; they don't have their own police force that extends to the United States. Yes, its terrible that this crime was covered up and that the priest wasn't defrocked, but let's put the majority of the blame on law enforcement, shall we?

justme 1091358: "The Catholics pu themselves above the law" This is about the most ignorant post I've ever read on Newsvine.

This is not a Catholic vs. Protestant issue. It's about the fact that the most powerful institutions, in this case the Catholic church, and by extension, the police department and others who could have investigated, have chosen to protect their own internal coterie of sycophants and their public image at the expense of those they are sworn to serve. It's essentially about the inherent venality of power - they did this because they could.

They could because they are unequivocally supported by an extensive membership (i.e., tithe-paying Catholics). If these people voted with their feet in sufficient numbers, or otherwise withheld concrete support, change would be forthcoming, and swiftly. The fact that nothing does change speaks volumes about the bovine nature of the faithful.

Chirst is the final authority over all "religions" and human behavior. Whether we recognize Him or not. One day "every knee will bow and every one will agree" that He is Lord. That being said, there is no entitiy on earth that should or will get away with the atrocities of child abuse. This corporal responsibility and individual accountability will be heard by a higher court. When that one convenes, the wolves will be separated from the flock. Title and rank has no value in the true Kingdom of God nor in the true church as described in scripture.

The Catholic stuctured hiarchy of absolute power and authority over it's faithful members has been corrupted for centuries. The organization has long been removed from the original value system of the First Century Christians. When true believers follow Chirst and not a organizied religion, then truth, integrity, compassion and love for others prevails. "Forgiveness" without true repentance is not scriptural. Grace has a price tag. It's called accountability to our fellowman and ultimately to our eternal accountability partner, God.

The Catholic Church hiarchy is recrucifying Christ and His true mission on earth by not scourging the priesthood and bringing to justice all who have broken the laws of God and the laws of man. God never intended for the church to be a place to hide and condone sin.

David, what do you mean, "the police by extension"? Are you implying the police department in that town is somehow an extension of the Catholic church? How do you know the police officers or the DA were even Catholics? You don't get it--those boys contacted the authorities THEMSELVES, yet law enforcement chose to do nothing. Now, this used to happen routinely to rape victims. I could see how one boy's complaint might be dismissed, but how incompetent do you have to be to dismiss what SEVERAL witnesses say about the same perpetrator?

I think he's saying that the police deferred to the perceived authority of the church, vs doing their jobs and arresting priests.

Any church or person who protects or denies an abuser by public statement or by shunning the victim is inflicting harm, too.

Children need SAFE places to go to find safety, help, and hope no matter who the abuser may be!

We need to realize that abusers can be religious leaders of any level and in any religion, AND politicians, doctors, bankers, civic leaders, shop owners, coaches, judges, etc., too. The very people most of us assume would never abuse a child are the very ones who do it!

When are we going to wake up and quit protecting these degenerates? All the kiddie porn in the world means that there is a huge market - maybe even your white-collar neighbors or "respected positions"! "Pillars of the community" need to be looked at if their kids are "problems"! Children from "good homes" don't act out in self-destructive ways unless there are major problems in their exemplary homes!

Sexual abuse of children in any form does not just happen in trailer park neighborhoods....WAKE UP!

Again, if law enforcement won't do anything, then there is NOTHING anyone can do except

1) take the law into his own hands and probably go to prison for it or

2) some version of "passing the trash" which is exactly what the Church did. Sure, the guilty priests should have been defrocked, but how would that protect the children? The pedophile ex-priest would STILL be out in the community. Please think. Please. The Catholic Church cannot lock people up. Only the criminal justice system can do that. This wasn't a case of the police not being called, they WERE called, and they wouldn't do anything. This wasn't an isolated case. The police all over the country had a pattern of not believing either women or children who told them they'd been raped. So, if you have a shred of rationality, why are you not angry at the police? Why don't you think the DA and all the others just like him should be prosecuted as accessory after the fact? Oh, wait, I think I know. Cops carry guns and can arrest you. It takes no courage at all to condemn somebody else's religion, but plenty to criticize the cops.

Uh, the Church could have removed them from any contact with potential victims? You don't LEAVE a pedophile in charge of a school for boys for 30 years. That's EVIL. Not to mention if the church had presented it's evidence and testimony to the police they could have had these priests arrested. No, instead it used it's power to protect them and keep them out of prison.

Archbishops should have been marching into police stations with victims and the priests in question ready to confess. They DO have the power to compel these men to turn themselves in. That never happened.

Actually, there's no indication the police even attempted to interview the priests or archbishop. It was their job to do so, but they simply declined to investigate. Even if the priests had been thrown out of the church, they STILL could and would have abused children out in the community. If you're the cops, you DON'T leave a pedophile out there running around loose. That's evil.

Yea, your ignoring my point. The Bishops should have been going to the cops. The cops never had the full picture and were obviously blinded by the Church's apparent authority, many of them being Catholics themselves. It's no different than the parent who assumes their child was making stuff up because "a priest would never do that".

The Bishops knew these men had committed mortal sins. How could they remain priests under such conditions? How could they have been forgiven these sins (if they confessed) without seeking to redress those wrongs? Which would involve going to the police and admitting their crimes and serving just punishments. Tell me again, when did that happen?

Yes, the police departments failed when they were alerted and did nothing but in MOST instances they were never in the loop beyond little believed rumor. It's the church who continued to allow men they KNEW had violated children to remain in positions of authority and contact with potential victims. The word for that is Evil, and nothing justifies it.

You say "even if", but removing these men from the cloth was the LEAST the Church could do, IMO. They didn't exercise the authority they DID have to protect their flock.

There are plenty of married men who are nevertheless pedophiles.

It is the Catholic Church. Hypocrisy is the only think that you can accept. And to your question about women. There are few men that would first be believed if they said that a woman abused them. Secondly, it has nothing to do with the cover up by the head of the world's biggest organized and richest religions. This pope, as a cardinal, did nothing in this case. While I believe that it is stupid to have sexual restrictions on a human being, the dumb-ass Catholics impose it on themselves and then cry when their leader does nothing. The Catholics are the most insidious, pompous and bombastic of all religions but want to mute this hideous practice from the pulpit. Remember, more wars are caused because of religious reasons than anything else. My guess is that priests will keep abusing boys and that the church will do nothing including holding this pope accountable for his inaction.

You can find insidious, pompous, bombastic sexual abusers in ALL religions, yes- religions are becoming centers that harbor control freaks! The more cult-like the religion, the more the control freaks you will find. They will protect each other - preachers, ministers, deacons, Sunday school teachers - whomever!

How many of you know about a "church goer" whose children are ultra shy, very quiet, have no or few friends, and seem to have "problems"? Do they have a parent who is a control freak?

Sexual abuse in any form is happening under your noses and no one wants to see it!

Be careful of your assumptions, dorrit. I'm NOT a church goer, but I happen to have a 13 year old child who is ultra shy, very quiet (except when he's screaming and cursing), has no friends, and obviously has problems. The doctors aren't even sure of a diagnosis--late onset autism is their best guess, except that's incredibly rare. Besides he only got this way about 3 years ago, and NOBODY becomes suddenly autistic at 10. Childhood schizophrenia or bipolar is another possibility. Medication is still at the trial and error stage, a nice way of saying nothing has worked. Maybe something terrible happened to him, but he refuses to speak to any of the therapists we've taken him to. The point is, not every odd seeming child has control freak parents, nor are they being sexually abused. Because my son cannot function in a school situation right now, I am "unschooling" him (a very control free form of homeschooling) and I don't see who could be abusing him since he won't even leave the house unless forced to do so. We never leave him with anyone--frankly we couldn't even we wanted to. Nobody would take him. Sadly, his own grandparents won't let him visit, nor will they visit him. You'd think he was some kind of monster.

BTW, my mother was a total screaming atheist and she was also as abusive as hell. Parental abuse has absolutely nothing to do with religion. To say otherwise is sheer ignorant bigotry.

I just clicked the check on your post. I agree with you in regard to kids with medical problems, of course, and in no way was addressing those considerations.

However since the article is about religion and abuse, that is what I was referring to. Also, abuse is not just found in the Catholic religion. Control freaks do abound in many religions. I know. I am a survivor of it. Religion is also a good place for abusers to hide and practice behind their twisted judgments and self-righteousness. Even using the excuse that a child has other conditions or "bad seeds" are used, too. This is a shame, but we have an epidemic of not reporting abuse in this country! Who is willing to speak up? Who will stop turning their heads their heads when it walks-like-a-duck, talks-like-a- duck in front of their faces?

Not ignorant bigotry - just firsthand experience here! Religion is a good place to hide it!

The point is that there are control freak atheists too. Several world leaders of the past century come to mind, just as examples. Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Castro were not exactly live and let live hippies. Even Che was a control freak, no matter how cute he looked in that beret. Control freakishness is a PERSONALITY disorder, even if you won't find it in the DSM-IV. I can see how such a person could hide behind a religion, but there are plenty of other places they can hide. They abound everywhere. If God could, he would probably sue the religious ones for using His name without permission.

As for "an epidemic of not reporting abuse", as a former CPS employee I beg to differ. The vast majority of reports are unfounded and usually malicious in nature. That is, someone's angry at a neighbor or former romantic partner, so they call CPS as a merry prank. Many CPS agents are totally unqualified control freaks themselves (you don't even need a social work degree where I live.) You'd be amazed how many of these people are just plain nuts, unqualified for any other job. The better ones tend to leave for greener pastures as soon as possible, because the job sucks. When you report someone to CPS for anything less than SERIOUS abuse (which does NOT include a smack on the tush or a discoraging word, BTW), you may be putting that child at far greater risk in addition to needlessly destroying a family. Kids get abused, raped and even killed in foster care, too. Often.

That doesn't justify keeping silent. The vast majority of abuses never go reported, so take any figures and quadruple them to get an idea of the real extent of the problem.

I don't know where you get the idea that "the vast majority" of abuse never gets reported, especially today, where child abuse hotlines are advertised on TV, the radio, billboards, and the schools. Children themselves report their own abuse today--not toddlers of course, but we had six year olds call us. Nobody can possibly know what percent of actual abuse is going undetected, whereas we CAN know what percent of reports turn out to be total crap. In any case, my point was, only report when you are reasonably sure that something SERIOUS is going on. Don't report just because you see something you personally don't like, such as a ten year old walking to the store alone, a child not wearing a warm enough coat for the weather, or a fat family at McDonalds. Those things are personal parental judgments; they are not the sort of thing that even warrants an investigation. Please keep something in mind. There are only so many caseworkers and so many hours in a day. While caseworkers waste their time investigating junk, they may not even get to genuine cases in time. In most states, there isn't even a system in place to prioritize. They just have to investigate every report.

Then enlighten me on those numbers? Because I think your into willful denial than kid's making stuff up i.e. people don't want to believe a priest could have done something like that so they shame the child into staying silent. And all you have to do is look at the floodgates that have opened in the last decade or so regarding past abuses to see how very few of them were ever reported at the time they were going on. The vast majority of victims have admitted never telling anyone, for all the various obvious and understandable reasons. That is indisputable. It's always been the case, there was a time when it simple was not discussed,m or the blame was placed on the kids for "seducing" adults, especially in cases of incest. You can read the tales from halfway homes in the early part of the 20th century and see how these issues weren't handled, just hidden out of sight.

I'm about your age. You do realize, of course, that even through your parents didn't believe in physical discipline, most people back then DID. Kids were physically punished in public schools too, for even stupider reasons. I also saw parents slap their kids in public, something that would get you arrested today. There are very few members of our generation who were NEVER struck by a parent or teacher.

Can you not make your point without being abusive?

I have a better idea. Grow a thicker skin.

A person who believes that women don't do these sort of things is an idiot. Deal with it.

There is one idiot in this blog and your entry speaks loads about you and your mental illness

Something: I never stated that only men do this and never women, I said women seem to be able to self control the urges better than men.

Since I'm an idiot and you are a narcissist, please explain to me why 99% of reported rapes happen to women by a man???

I am in no way bashing my gender, only pointing out the fact that we seem to be more aggressive when it comes to procreating.

Oh, I do have thick skin so continue to show your lack of intelligent on me all the while hiding behind your monitor you little monkey spank ass clown.

Women are much less LIKELY to do it. You know about these cases precisely because they are freaks that made the national news. When a boy or girl is abused by a man, even when he's arrested, it doesn't generally make the news at all unless the case also involved MANY children, kidnapping, or murder.

I love this song and wish we could all co-exist in peace, but I have been to the other side briefly and know there is more than just this existence.

It's interesting that this is actually a description of John's version of his own heaven and his own religion, and it's even more unlikely to become reality than the tenants of most established religions.

The other option is the Unitarian path, which is essentially accepting every religion and denying none. You never hear about Unitarians killing gays, blowing up abortion clinics, molesting children, or flying airplanes into buildings.

I have very Unitarian sentiments, although I don't necessarily agree with the typical Unitarian's politics. And I agree they don't fly airplanes into buildings or blow up abortion clinics, but I'm sure there are Unitarian rapists, pedophiles,and murderers, too. These things occur among ALL groups.

Do you even understand the topic of this thread?

Can't you read what this forum is discussing esbee? Or is it that you are just trying to be cute??? Cute, you are not... I believe the word is STUPID and everyone knows you just can't fix STUPID!!!!!

You missed her point, which was an important one. The government is the ONLY entity that can protect children against pedophiles, but they seem to have "more important things to do."

That doesn't seem to be the point at all. Nor is it true.

Capt, that IS her point. How else do you interpret this sentence:

[[One of the reasons these travesties continue is that the govt is spending too much time and money tracking others that they feel are real threats to our society]]

And while YOU may be a "government is omniscient and omnipotent, all hail government" type, the fact is, it IS true. Resources aren't unlimited for any of us, our government included. If "Bob" spends all his money at the pub, he can't pay the electric bill. If the state spends all its money on garbage like the NAIS, then they can't hire enough cops and they will end up letting dangerous criminals out of jail due to overcrowding.

Uh, no I'm saying that the government is NOT the only entity capable of protecting our children. We as parents have a little to do with that, and the greater community of us can be quite effective if we bothered to care about one another again. It takes a village, and all of that. The government actually has very little ability to protect kids from becoming victims, they can find and punish perpetrators but they're very ineffective at preventing the crimes in the first place. That's on us and our children themselves, being aware and competent.

Most children are molested by family members, and the vast majority have never before been caught, so who is or is not let out of prison is almost negligible. It wouldn't have protected a single one of these children from the monstrous deeds done to them by priests.

Wouldn't a better goal be to educate more people to question authority, whether it be derived from religious, governmental, or other sources, so they could make decisions based on an informed sense of values, rather than having to submit to what is tantamount to blind faith? One of the supposed benefits of democracy is the counterbalance of so many against the ambition of the few in positions of power, yet all too often, we allow ourselves to be manipulated and nullified.

Many of us had hoped that the internet would help to bring about such a state of affairs, but it seems to be just another avenue for the promulgation of inanity. At some very basic level, people have to take responsibility for their own edification and follow a path toward self-awareness. That's the only way out of whatever prison one might find oneself in.

By the way, neither atheism nor communism need necessarily bar one from participation in polite society. :)

David: I shall be searching for your posts in the future; well-written, thoughtful, and informative. While I agree with you on the issue of education - how can I not? - the fact is there is simply no mechanism to truly educate. The public school system, like virtually every other tax-supported institution is designed to buttress and continue the status quo. You note the Internet is simply a new iteration of past "educational" tools.

The real issue is the ability to think critically, which is unfortunately a function of intellect. It cannot be taught, it can only be enhanced.

Far too many - a huge majority in my opinion - function as little more than automatons. How else can you explain a right-wing screamer who demands that the government stay out of health care WHILE continuing Medicare? How do you explain a left-wing babbler who insists on health care at no cost? Such positions are mutually exclusive. To a person with the ability to think critically, this should bring about a state of cognitive dissonance that would turn a brain to mush.

Why no cognitive dissonance for these people? Their brains are ALREADY mush, but the true horror is that their shrill voices are driving a debate that has no foundation in reality.

Both Davids I agree with both of you and having known a few people who were sexually abused as children, two of them by trusted members of the community. One was clergy (not catholic), the other was his little league coach, both of them told me they felt unable to do anything like even fight or slap them or scream because well it was their pastor or their coach and I think that is part of the problem. I don't know if it would be successful to tell our children that if ANYONE even someone they know touches them inappropriately then you can hit them and scream because it goes against a child's usual behavior. Habit is a very hard thing to break especially with the shock and shame of something like that suddenly happening.

Both Davis and FW-1029331, I agree with you, and also I believe, parents should teach their kids to tell if they are touched inappropriately immediately, it could prevent some child abuse, not matter who does it, and also I believe these pedophiles should be castraded.

If you want your children to be open minded, lifelong autodidacts with the ability to question authority, consider homeschooling them. Public schools aren't going to do it. They were created to produce docile, low level employees, and this has not changed.

Church teachings tell us that we share in the priesthood of Jesus through baptism. It's about time we started to speak up and take a more active role in our church.

That's a very interesting theory. However, a "thorn in my side" could mean anything. The phrase reminds me of nothing more than "a monkey on my back". I'll bet Paul was as alcoholic. That would explain his visions/hallucinations--he could have been in DT's or alcoholic hallucinosis, two very real phenomena. Alcoholics have "spiritual experiences" all the time, usually when coming off the stuff. Frankly, in antiquity it was no big deal to be a "sodomite" (the Athenians built their whole culture around it) but drunkenness was a much bigger scandal, especially among Jews. The Christian Jews of his day would have felt the same.

The church needs a major overhaul in its attitude towards women as well. Some women in positions of power would go a long way towards curbing these abuses in my opinion.

It seems clear that these men who have been in charge exclusively for centuries have lost the ability to effectively police themselves and have become corrupted by their power. A major shakeup and changes in church policy are the only thing that is going to save them.

About that "right of choice" what does that mean? The choice to beat your kids or own slaves? The choice to rob a bank? Why don't you come right out and say "abortion"? What are you afraid of?

*applause* Amen.

Exactly. I'm so sickened by this. And to read they kept that scumball because of his fundraising abilities, what is that? That's sick and greedy. There are real victims out there!

Ficus, you said it all. I can't imagine what these men have lived with all these years. I was born into a Catholic family. I do not practice, haven't for 45 yrs. and am so sickened and even have feelings of shame myself, for what these priests do and have done. My cousins go to mass every Sunday like sheep. Priests can be almost mesmerizing when they deliver the mass. They preach about the wonderful innocense of children yet they take it all away in the most horrific way. I can't even find the words or express them here how I feel about it as I would probably be banned. The coverups and lies should lead to the collapse of the church as it rightly should. More than sickening. All I have is disgust and yes, I feel hatred towards these scum for what they do and have done. It's past time to line them all up and let the victims deliver justice. No mercy, no deliverence from evil, send them into the general population in the most violent of prisons. That could justifiably be their hell. Let them be used and abused until they are finished off. All Catholics should be ashamed for supporting them. Just mho.

So I guess you also condemn anyone with a "support your local police" bumper sticker because for many years, the police refused to believe either children or adults who told them they'd been raped or otherwise abused. That would be about as logical.

To Mulvaney

You should not judge Catholic church only, (I am not defending it), if you look around, there are child abuse all over religions, cults and others such as, Universal, Churchs, Jewish, Coaches, teachers, etc.., not too long ago, I saw the news about, lawyers, doctors and some big fat cats, going to others Country's to have sex with kids (boys/girls), as young as 5 years old, where their parents sell them out for sex. So, don't point your finger at Catholics only, all Churchs and Cults are filthy rich and there are pedophiles too. I believe authorities should be after them all, do a real good clean up, because they have the money and the power to cover up their dirt real good.

Gitana-820625

You are correct in what you say about child abuse in churches and cults and I agree wholeheartedly, but the Catholic church has institutionalized this abuse to where it is a matter of church policy. Certainly some whacko cult in some barn that does the same thing is guilty and will ultimately face punishment but when you have a 'religion' of the power, scope and money of the Catholics, who turn to their members worldwide and get them to pay the legal fees, the problem grows exponentially. More money for defense = more abuse of innocent children whose unthinking parents subject them to this abuse because those parents are too lazy to work out their own salvation and trust some rich, protected pedophile to teach their children about God by taking the child into a closet and raping them.

The Catholic church insists on worship of the church using God as a front. They are Satanists, pure and simple, as research into their symbology will reveal. This is the result of following the doctrines of man instead of the doctrines of God. The god they worship is not the God I worship

God is about love and child rape is not love, no matter how rich or influential the organization that promotes child rape may be. This is worldwide, institutionalized crime. I have no experience with other cults that practice the same sort of abuse but I do have experience with the Catholic church and that's why I point the accusing finger at them.

He'll just get the best attorney's his gold-lined Vatican can buy. Money talks. Almighty dollar.

Doesn't matter. Nobody thinks outside the box enough to even consider putting the pope on trial. Doing so would humanize him, something the catholic church would want to avoid at all costs.

And this is by no means the end of it - there will be more to come. No one's even looked yet at what some of the nuns get up to!

Yes, it can be done but it's very rare - I think the last one was Pope Gregory something-or-other, but that was a fight over policy, not abuse.

No, you cannot IMPEACH a Pope. He can be pressured to resign, but he cannot be forcibly removed. Pope Gregory chose to step down.

You should be more concerned with impeaching judges, crooked politicians, greedy corporations and bureaucracies before you worry about the pope. They are more a threat to this nation than the Catholic church. And I know of one instance of a Protestant minister who did the same thing. Wonder why there have been no investigations of Protestant abuse? Don't condemn all catholics for the actions of those guilty.

'No, you cannot IMPEACH a Pope. He can be pressured to resign, but he cannot be forcibly removed. Pope Gregory chose to step down.'

Pope Gregory it appears at least had some dignity! - It seems however the flock have a graver matter to consider since we're talking about the scarring of young bodies and young minds. The shepherds have heinously abused their powers - the coverup is an anathema!

I think he can be de-frocked. But, there would have to be some kind of internal existential coup.