Yea I know, China never want to be split into tiny little pieces, I couldn't figure it out for the world, why her position hasn't changed since the dawn of time.

The situation is very complex and the factors involved are as many as the people involved. This country is going to have to decide which side of the fence they are on soon and stay there. And I hope it won't be decided because of intimidation.

China's indignant reaction to the selling weapons to Taiwan appears to be in keeping with a new attitude that is worrying governments across the globe.

It doesn't seem to be upsetting the U.S. any.

With obama & clinton ruining the White House, now is the time for China to step up and become the world leader unfortunately.

longhair....more like shortmemory!

It's a funny thing this cycle of life is. China didn't have to open up its borders to the US after Nixon "normalized" relations, but they did. If you really want to know why China is doing what it's doing right now, all you have to do is look at the failure of SEATO in conjunction with the US and other western powers projecting its power on one of the oldest civilizations on this earth and you'll find your answer.

This has been a long time coming and Obama and Clinton are only playing their role. Funny how you left out Bush I and Bush II and wasn't China a "commie nation" when your boy Reagan was in office too?

United States would be responsible for "serious reperucssions"

Oh yeah, .........you'll just poison more of your imported products, or support more terrorism......

"There has been a change in China's attitude,"

So I guess, you need us to come over there too, and give you an attitude adjustment???

Take out the chosen few at the top, and the billion chinese people will do the rest.........

Another non-western culture that will not behave. They will not mind. They were just supposed to supply cheap labor and otherwise rollover and play dead. How dare they fight back at the divide and conquer tactics of the west? How dare they not let the west sell weapons to Taiwan so there will be western weapons at their shores? How dare they not let the west use Taiwan as it used Viet Nam, Laos and Cambodi to shirt China? So what if the people of Taiwan suffer as the people of Iraq as their country is being used a puppet against a perceived enemy of the west?

China is a not a rock to chip away. It is a mountain. The chips being support for the Dalai Lama, enemies of my enemy are my friends and even criticism of opting to choose what they wanted to eat. The cat fight begins. This is a big cat, a lion.

This new posture has befuddled Western officials and analysts:

Just add this to the list of issues that are currently befuddling Western Officials!

Maybe if we're really unlucky they'll put trade restrictions on the US and we'll have to start making things here again. Oh that would just be terrible. I hope they don't do that. Please! Please! Don't punish us with trade embargo's. Anything but that!

china is slowly poisoning our future generations with cadmium in kids toys. Said it before and will continue repeating, "STOP BUYING ANYTHING MADE IN CHINA." Simple. If we do not send our money to them they will simply stagnate. Thank you walmart. You are doing a great service to America. NOT!

Peter Jacobs...

Don't blame Wal-Mart for manufacturers taking jobs overseas! They only SELL goods...they don't MANUFACTURE goods. And all of that "Buy American" rhetoric is easier said than done.

Don't blame Wal-Mart for manufacturers taking jobs overseas! They only SELL goods...they don't MANUFACTURE goods. And all of that "Buy American" rhetoric is easier said than done.

Products that are made for Walmart by companies, that were built, run, or sponsered by China.......I see a connection here........

Products that are made for Walmart by companies, that were built, run, or sponsered by China.......I see a connection here........

Products that are made for WalMart by companies with a connection? Yes... And how did those products being made by companies that were "built, run, or sponsored by China" come to pass? It's called exporting manufacturing jobs!

"They only SELL goods...they don't MANUFACTURE goods" Wow we can plainly see that you are simply stupid!

Walmart SELLS what that Cheap ass crap that china manufactures because Walmart buys that crap and offers it up to you at a LOW price. Did you think China just gives Walmart their crap to sell? They have to buy it from them so they can sell it to YOU! Where do you think Walmart gets the money to buy that sh*t? You and all the poor MF's who can't afford to shop anywhere else because they don't have a job that pays them enough to shop elsewhere. We ,the US consumers (70% of US economy based on purchasing junk)and all US companies that moved manufacturing to that big CHEAP COMMUNIST labor pool.

At the start of the downfall of the US it was a win win situation from US companies . They lower there labor costs and make big ass bucks. I think that now after all these years it is catching up to us. We are responsible or shall I say American Corporate Greed is. China has us by the economic BALLS and they have just started to squeeze.

I work for a large American printer company who shall remain nameless, American as in the corporate Offices are located here. They have basically,over the years shifted their major production to China. What is left in this country is the service workers. My company hire a manufacturer in China to build there equipment, they ship it here sell it for thousands of dollars and by that I mean you could buy a very nice car for what they get for them. Yet for the last ten years they tell the US employees we can barely make a profit selling the actual device. Really? So 2500 more American jobs will go bye,bye very soon.

Please, momus2009 wake up. China has not become a world power by itself, we became a world power through are manufacturing. We are throwing it away because of lack of.

The Chinese never would have had a man in space unless the US subsidize it by us buying their crap.

All the Chinese have to do is call in all the debt we owe them and that is the end of our country as we know it. Sad but true.

Seems like we owe China so much money that we can be intimidated by that country. Perhaps we should stand up and tell them that they cannot dictate our dealings with other countries - it is none of their business.

Want to hurt China? The only way to do it is in the pocket book. Stop buying their poisonous cr**.

No worries... Obama will bow down and apologize for us and all will be OK.

Reliving myyouth

Are you serious? Are you serious? You call me stupid without knowing what I do for a living and ASSUME that I actually shop at WalMart? LMAOThat's right buddy! Wal-Mart DOES NOT MANUFACTURE ANYTHING! The companies that SUPPLY Wal-Mart DO!

Sorry buddy, Wally-World doesn't get much of my money simply due to the fact that the nearest Wal-Mart to where I live is about 40 something miles and I am definitely not the one to spend $8 more dollars in gas just so I can can save a messily $.17...LMAO

So please don't try to lecture me on what the problem is. That little "printer company" (that shall remain nameless) you work for is part of the problem you putz! Why don't you wake up and start your own AMERICAN BASED business, like I have and then you can come talk to me. I employ 4 workers and I am doing my part. How about you? Obviously not!

"Analysts say a combination of hubris and insecurity appears to be driving China's mood." Interesting take on that, since an objective observer might be inclined to describe the US behavior in similar terms.

If there is one thing I'd like to emphasize about long term and ongoing frictions with China, it is that we have in almost every instance initiated contact. We had Boston traders move in and try to grab a piece of the lucrative opium trade from the British, we sent gunboats over to patrol the Yangtze and the coastline (to protect our business interests) prior to the ascendancy of the nationalists (and by many accounts, our presence was a catalyst for that), which in turn fueled the rise of Communism. Nixon wooed her in the 70s, and Bush I opened up trade opportunities in our country as a way for US corporations to undercut workers' wages here. Our corporate sector has consistently embraced China even as it further disenfranchises American citizens, yet after all this time dealing with a culture renowned for its long-range planning and business acumen, we seem surprised that things haven't gone as planned since we woke the sleeping giant.

I've said it before, and I'll keep repeating it under I croak. Our true enemies are of the domestic variety, homegrown, and that's one of the reasons we keep falling for their calculated spiel. These pampered plutocrats horde everything for themselves, only acknowledging that we even live in the same country when they need someone to pull their patrician asses out of the messes they've engineered themselves. I've already been burned, and don't care to answer the call again. Someone else will have to play the sap this time.

True Communism! The young people of our country should take note that China/communism is a total government control system. The more you regulate the closer you get to losing your freedom and that is what is happening here in the US. Democracy and Capitalism go hand in hand.

China is looking at the US and thinking we are growing weaker and weaker. The see a weak leader in the Whitehouse who has lost his popularity rating and the people have no confidence in. They hold large amounts of debt in this country and all they need to do is foreclose. What will Obama do then? Go to them on his knees and beg forgiveness? What will he do when they say the dollar is worthless for repayment and demand land instead?

How typical...'only a strong US can push back the Communist expansion', yet when US and British forces tried to overthrow the Bolsheviks following WWI, we were unsuccessful; when China went Communist, we were helpless to stop it; when the USSR took over a large portion of Europe after WWII, we did nothing but stand by and watch, and when Cuba went Communist, we basically did the same, we just threw out the occasional roadblock to make their lives more miserable. Yeah, the US is the bastion and protector of freedom in the world, all right.

You peons are so clueless.

Why do we continually poke China in the eye? Obviously they can make life more (or less) difficult for us. Further, given its increased economic ties with Taiwan it is likely that nation will eventually rejoin mainland China. Let's solve our own problems - jobs, infrastructure, an ineffectual political system, global warming, rising debt, obscene health care costs, a bloated military, etc.

And when zee-Germans were bombing the hell out of England and France, the United States stood on the sidelines and watched chuckling huh Wellman? LMAO

You forgot to mention the fact that Billy Clinton got China's foot in the door at the end of 1999 with the China Trade Agreement which let them join the World Trade Organization. Well, they have since kicked that door off it's hinges. And you can blame Walmart and all the other companies you want, but you better blame yourselves too. No one,NO one can honestly say that they buy 100% American made goods. There isn't that much manufacturing going on in this country any more.

Which brings us to why. Sure corporations want to make as much profit as they can, but higher labor costs,most all manufacturing jobs are union, have forced many of those companies to move or stop manufacturing and simply buy and import to stay in business. Simple fact

As far as Walmart being so greedy,ever consider that they have,what a million stores,doing a lot of business,so yeah they are going to make tons of money.Not because they are screwing their employers or customers,but because of the sheer volume of merchandise being sold. Also,for all of you who would like to see Wallyworld go under,they are the largest private employer in the country.Add all those people to the unemployment lines and see how well this country does.

China is changing because its people are changing. The Old Liners are scared that their population is becoming Westernized. As that happens, jobs and incomes become the focus.

China is burdened with almost 2 billion people. There is gridlock at the top and rapid movement at the bottom. The clash isn't between China and the rest of the world, it's internal. Eventually China will implode just like Russia had to split up and change their mind-set.

One strange outlook is the 'return' of our jobs in the manufacturing sector because the wages and earning power of the Chinese people has been growing rapidly. They just need to learn that what goes around comes around. We'll see.

The whole scenario reminds me of when Mike Tyson was dominating the heavyweight class for years like the US has dominated the world stage. Then when he was beat by Buster Douglas and everyone realized he's human after all, he never regained the respect as an invincible champion so that other boxers no longer feared him.

The same attitude now prevails ever since our financial crisis crippled the US. Whenever there's a void in the power structure, someone will always attempt to step in and take over the reins, which China apparently feels it has the cajones to do right now.

Momie,

No, that's not what I said, and we (mostly the USSR, who were our allies at the time, and who took the brunt of the military casualties) did defeat Germany, but nothing in this thread, or my post was about Nazi Germany. Our business elites also demanded favorable terms from Britain prior to our entry into the war so we'd be certain to make a profit at the end of the day - very patriotic, that. I've only commented (factually - please bother to check) on our historical lack of efficacy against Communist regimes, so laugh your ass off if it makes you feel better (roll on the floor, too, if you can find a clean spot), but you're hardly equipped to debate me. Go back to reading your comic books.

Typical right wing nutcase - can't work with the facts, so tries to substitute a different topic. Stupid, ignorant, and Republican is no way to go through life, son.

Bottom line:

China has most of the U.S. debit in their back pocket. Now they can carry a BIG STICK in almost every issue brought up at the U.N. or at any multi-country symposium.

Not to worry folks. Oba-a-a-ma will fly right over there and bow and apologize and promptly back down for the arrogant USA. China will take over as they already own a great deal of the US and our debt and you will all be saved.

I suspect that China views Obama as a weak, vacillating leader, and sees this as an opportunity to flex their muscles and influence world affairs.

They may be tempted to overstep their position and create a backlash.

It should be interesting.

How soon we forget

1960 and the Cuban Missile Crisis

The problem with Americans is do as I say and not as I do.

Lets be realistic

with 1 billion more people than the USof A, by sheer numbers alone is might right, and why does the USA have military presence in Japan, Korea, Germany.

What is the USA concerned with?

Can someone explain to me the difference between a defensive weapon and and offensive weapon.

The USA wants China to impose sanctions on Iran. Is selling arms to Taiwan contributing to good relations to China and the US.

Here's a thought. been there done that, suppose China in return sold 'defence weapons' to Cuba for a couple of remembi? How would the US respond.

Games that politicians and countries play.

Last "They hold large amounts of debt in this country and all they need to do is foreclose. What will Obama do then? Go to them on his knees and beg forgiveness? What will he do when they say the dollar is worthless for repayment and demand land instead?"

They can't foreclose, since we make payments on our debt to them. They can't declare the dollar worthless, because they agreed to accept repayment in dollars.

They can stop buying more debt, but then it would trigger a massive decline in the U S debt they already own, and perhaps result in trade sanctions against their products, which will lead to massive layoffs in their country.

They do have options, but they are not as strong as you suggest.

What I find humorous is the Chinese sell us cheap products, and we pay them with (soon to be) cheap money, which they invest in (soon to be) U S junk bonds.

Get ready for inflation.

Design,

Excellent point about universality of ethics ('what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander'), as well as the historical references to back it up. The US has gotten used to dictating to the world how things will be, and they don't like it any more than we would. Granted, diplomacy doesn't solve all problems, but ours is sorely underutilized, if over-funded. As with Bush II's approach, if it's used at all, it's simply a preamble to breaking out the big guns.

With our military presently bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan (both third world countries by any definition), I'm curious as to the logistics of how we'd man a military campaign against China. Even if the right wingers could succeed in deposing Obama and installing another puppet like 'W' (not hard to picture after the 2000 'selection'), I doubt that it could be accomplished. Maybe the goal is simply to reduce the world's population as a cure for what ails us. Strong medicine, that.

Our government needs to use their brains and stop borrowing money from China. The U.S. needs pay China off so this type of situation does not hold a rope around our throats. The same goes for oil. When is our country ever going to learn? I sometimes feel that U.S.A is so stupid(DUMB).

China has nerve to dictate who we can sell arms to, in fact they do the same thing, like selling arms to Iran, N Korea, ect... So if our government has the balls I would tell China to go strait to hell! I say to you CHINA YOU STOP SELLING ARMS TO OUR ENEMIES THEN WE'LL DO THE SAME. Otherwise no deal.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Eat red meat.... beat China!

The unease over China's new tone is shared by Europeans as well. "How Should Europe Respond to China's Strident Rise?" is the title of a new paper from the Center for European Reform. Just two years earlier, its author, institute director Charles Grant, had predicted that China and the European Union would shape the new world order.

LOL Then it serves Denmark, France, and Germany and others right for sucking up to the Chinese.

Just like the Cold War. The United States and Soviet Union (now China) will both make the gullible European progressives promises, then proceed to divvy up the world by ourselves.

My, how history does repeat itself.

The Obama agenda depends on money borrowed from China as well as others in the world. China knows that. They also know you can't pi$$ off the banker and expect to borrow more money...

"With obama & clinton ruining the White House, now is the time for China to step up and become the world leader unfortunately."

Right..., watching fox news again? The neo cons are like the Chinese, love to pay poverty wages to their people, then wonder why they have no money to spend?

China will just become a oligarchy and plutocracy like America....capitalism will cause ww3

More blame is EASILY put on the last administration,, the WORST and most damaging, illegal, corrupt in the history of our country..

don't worry the Chinese are not Like the white man, the spanaird or the crazy Al-quaida..they don't want to dominate the World for Land/ Government or such...they just want to own the World financially....

Why do you think China has been around for thousands of years? They look at the odimbo team in the U.S. and their not fooled. They know Washington's agenda and see their biggest market will be gone in 2 years once odimbo turns us into little China. Chairman chobama!!!!!

In all honesty, I think there's a great deal of projection (the US assuming that China has the same goals in mind as we do) going on here, and history simply does not support this. China has always been inwardly focused, and has not ever tried to establish a foreign empire beyond what it sees as its own sphere of influence. Their own voyages of discovery located southern Africa, Australia, and possibly the New World two hundred years before Europeans, and they deemed it all unworthy of their advanced culture. Even Tibet is simply desired as a buffer zone against an ascendant India. Somehow, the WASP powers that dominate the US got it into their heads that they had a right to China's wealth as well, so now we have conflict. Show me a parallel to manifest destiny anywhere in Chinese philosophy.

In the year 2009 the United States saw at least Four terrorist attacks on its soil.

1) May 25 - New York City: A bomb explodes outside a Starbucks. No one injured.

2) June 01 - Little Rock, Arkansas: Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad, an American Muslim opened fire on a U.S. military recruiting office. Private William Long was killed and Private Quinton Ezeagwula was wounded.

3) November 05 - Nidal Malik Hasan, (Army Major) opens fire INSIDE of a United States military installation, ON US Soil, 13 people were killed and 38 people were injured. Before he began shooting, several witnesses said they heard him shouting "Allahu akbar!"

4) December 25 - Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab attempts to detonate an explosive on an aircraft en route from Amsterdam to Detroit. 2 people are injured. BOTH sides are trying to figure out "What went wrong" and trying now, albeit a little late, to "Connect the Dots".

The first side to do so... Wins.

With the ever-present threat and reality of this kind of assault on our country and liberty and our Constitution. OUR FEARLESS LEADER... The Commander in Chief...

Yes.. Our President... Leader of the Free World ... Has chosen to look into whether or not College Football should have playoffs. I can remember inauguration day clearly, where he swore to preserve, protect and defend the BCS...

The BCS by the way, has said to the president: "For now, our constituencies -- and I know he understands constituencies -- have settled on the current BCS system, which the majority believe is the best system yet to determine a national champion while also maintaining the college football regular season as the best and most meaningful in sports." (BCS Coordinator John Swofford)

The president's response: That he would use his influence to create such a system.

BCS says - No thanks. President says "I don't care" Poll after Poll declaring that over 60% of Americans do not want Obamacare - they'll ram it through anyway... but I digress.

This is the reason China doesn't give a DAMN about what we say, do or try to influence. Because our leadership (and yes, with Bush as well) is a hollow suit and a wholly owned subsidiary. He is either the second dumbest elected official we've ever had, or the smartest Marxist we've ever had in office.

It's over, basically - so take your family on a picnic.. have a vacation ... see a movie.. just enjoy the time you have left.

....not because they are screwing their employers or customers,but because of the sheer volume of merchandise being sold.

AND Enzelow- I know you mean well, but this is one of the most corrupt corporations ever. You should take a look at a little documentary called: "Wal Mart - the High Cost of Low Prices". I don't care that they don't pay people more than 10.00 an hour. In my book that's not bad for 'entry level'. But they tell some pretty fierce lies to the communities in which they situate themselves in order to get their foot in the door. And I believe you'll find the way they treat their Asian employees of particular interest as well.

We need to quit worrying about China and figure out what we need to do to get our own act in order. That may mean tariffs on foreign sourced goods, especially from countries like China with a history of unfair trade practices (including but not limited to dumping items on our economy with manipulated prices to corner the market, manipulating currency rates to have favorable pricing, using unsafe materials to lower manufacturing costs). The one lesson we should take from the Chinese is that our affairs should come first and everyone else's second. You don't think China is willing to cripple their economy in the name of "going green" do you? Then we shouldn't. As far as weapons sales go, we have to walk a fine line between what is in our interests and what will foster better relations. We shouldn't seek confrontation where it can be avoided but we need to stand tall where we are right and they are wrong.

right on Fred......

And still we become more and more beholden to them.

China is emboldened because they own us and we are now more sensitive to it because we have continued to invite them to hold us by the...

It amazes me that so many representatives/advisors/presidents in Washington hold Ivy League degrees, but yet are such idiots. Just goes to show how much an Ivy League degree is worth. I went to community college and even I get it.

Not sure why anyone is surprised. They have taken over most of the manufacturing (and don't do a very good job as I find products of China to be of inferior quality) and have been making a lot of money which in our world, equals power. I saw this coming but I'm not sure why everyone else seems to have been shortsighted until recently. How could anyone not see this happening?

Well yeah and we gave them the power.

Think how much better off we would be now if we had elected Perot

So China gets upset at the USA for selling weapons that China thought they were going to make. An entire country ticked off because they lost a sale? And to show how arrogant Chinese officials are they're going to arm-wrestle the rest of the world. The Chinese seem to think dumping money on various countrys will get them what they want,fortunately there are some countrys with a spine to stand up to a bully. All we need now is one for the USA.

What isn't going to help the USA is Mal-Wart (et al) using the threat of closing stores and laying off people when it can't get its' products from China. And I'll bet Mal-Wart will do just that,force the White House to cave in to China so Americans can keep their retail jobs.

Why do we act like this is all just happening. It started decades ago with Japanese imports. then Taiwan then China. Back in the sixties then seventies.

Here is how we the general Public can attempt to curb the situation.

1. Move your money to a local community Bank. And only get loans do business with them. Get rid of the Big banks credit lines and cards.

2. Anything you can buy used and or local buy that way. Or at least attempt to make sure the package says made in anywhere but China.

3. Buy quality and take care of it. Meaning Buy real Wood furniture shabby chic home made type stuff. No More pressboard cheap stuff.

Seriously if every household bought one piece of thier furniture from an Antique store flea market or Yard sale. That one transaction Keeps that much more money here.

Pressboard furniture is cheap and mostly made about 90% made in china. With the other 10% made in? Mexico. Keep as much money in our own hands and out of our Governments and out of Chinese hands. And help your local area to boot.

We can't go around begging for money/handouts from China and then get angry when they hold the cards. If the shoe were on the other foot WE would be copping the attitude.

What's the difference!!! We are all done for in 2012 anyway!!! Right? ;p...lol

Standing up and asserting yourself because some bully's are attempting to push you around with an intent on making you a slave is something that is encouraged for healthy boundaries. History of the British Opium War on China, and the British taking of Hong Kong are lessons that I'm sure the Chinese wish not to repeat. If we can't understand healthy boundaries even for Sovereign Nations to protect themselves from harm then is it any wonder we may be acting as the bully.

We owe China a Trillion dollars - why don't we tell them that paper they hold is worthless? We decided not to pay our debt because off all the jobs we have sent over there. If they don't like it we will pay them back from a 20% tarrif on goods coming from China.

Page 1:

"Chinese Vice Foreign Minister He Yafei said the United States would be responsible for "serious repercussions" if it did not reverse the decision to sell Taiwan $6.4 billion worth of helicopters, Patriot Advanced Capability-3 missiles, minesweepers and communications gear. The reaction came even though China has known for months about the planned deal, U.S. officials said."

Page 2:

"Even before the United States announced its plans Friday, at least six senior Chinese officials, including officers from the People's Liberation Army, had warned Washington against the sale."

So U.S. officials are trying to pretend that they are surprised by this reaction because "China has known about the deal for months"? yet the reality is that Chinese have officials have been warning the U.S. officials the entire time.

Don't feel bad China, our officials ignore us U.S. citizens too and do whatever they want...no matter how costly or stupid it is.

Momus2009

Regarding walmart, "They only SELL goods...they don't MANUFACTURE goods." True, but they still import the crap made in china in order to sell to US consumers. They help traffic goods produced by practically slave labor that beat US labor, sell cheap to US lower and middle class toxic goods that would sicken our children and animals. How American is that? That an American company would allow this to happen is beyond me.

I almost bought a gas mask the other day, but on the label it said made in China...........

Mr. Miller of course, Robert Greenwald is totally unbiased........right?

So, I guess China has started acting like the US, next you know they will start making list of countries that don't do this or that. The more powerful you get the more you think you are entitled to whine and demand.

Looks like the military industrial complex is trying to create some more business for itself. Kind of curious what the reaction would be if the Soviets sold weapons to Mexico? We sell more weapons than anybody else in the world, we have more troops and bases in other countries than any country in the world. We have more people in prison than anybody in the world.

We have become the Soviet Union of 40 years ago.

Don't blame Wal-Mart for manufacturers taking jobs overseas! They only SELL goods.

Wal-mart supports and encourages child labor and sweat shops, so they can get merchandise dirt cheap and make billions while paying their employees barely minimum wage with benefits virtually non existence. I would rather have 10 merchants competing for my business then to have one SUPER WALMART that undercuts the local businesses until they are forced to shut down. And then you have no choice except to shop with them. Then they throw their money at the government to buy congressional support.

"Wal-mart supports and encourages child labor and sweat shops, so they can get merchandise dirt cheap and make billions while paying their employees barely minimum wage with benefits virtually non existence."

You have seen no nothin' yet pal. Wait till they move their factories and ship all their Indian-made crap goods to the USA in 20 years time. Not just barely minimum wage in China, in India it is much much worst with cheap child slave labor and and slumdog wages. It makes China look so good indeed.

Yes peace is gold... but China is playing a dangerous political game and we should all keep our heads on a swivel, collectively and nationally speaking.

China is muscling up, and is already proving to be capable of swaying others actions and positions. Yes, very dangerous game...

In related news: "U.S. speeds up arms buildup with Gulf allies"

"The Obama administration is quietly working with Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf allies to speed up arms sales"

"http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35161735/ns/world_news-washington_post/'

I wonder if Norway is as pissed off as U.S. voters are yet. Alfred Nobel must be turning over in his grave. The peace prize has lost all prestige and respect after this fiasco.

Good lord are that many people misinformed about the current state of American Debt? China only holds 15% or so of our total government debt. Next is Japan at 14%. China is merely the biggest "single" holder of debt, much of it is held by other countries and business's. Every time someone buys a savings bond, or other treasury security, that is money that is part of our debt.

Also we pay the interest on a yearly basis, because of this there is no such thing as "foreclosure" by another nation. We are not an underwater mortgage or a sub-prime loan. The absolute worst thing China can do is to flood the market with its US holdings in an attempt to sell them off. That would cause the value of those holdings to plummet making it harder for us to sell them the next year. But then we wouldn't be paying those large interest payments every year to the Chinese government. That is why our debt sells for so much to other countries, it represents a direct cash payment every year to holder of the bond, its basically free income to any country that holds our debt.

Seriously guys, do some basic research before flapping your lips about a subject you don't understand. China owns the US my a$$....

“If China can't handle the truth......"

What truth are you writing about?

• That the Chinese economy is poised to overtake the US as the largest economy in the world as early as 2020?
• That the Chinese are rapidly modernizing their military so at the very least they will soon be (if they are not already) the dominant regional military power in Asia?
• That the Japanese are increasingly looking to Beijing as a strategic partner at the expense of the longstanding relationship with the US? (China has overtaken the US as the number one trading partner of Japan)
• That because of the recent economic collapse that the US and most of the Western world has recently suffered that more of the developing world is turning away from the mantra of Democracy and free markets and looking to the Chinese as an example?
• That the US needs the Chinese a lot more than they need the US over such thorny topics as North Korea, Iran, the war on terrorism, and climate change?

I have to admit that when I was growing I never thought the US would be in the position that it is in today -- looking over its shoulder and seeing someone catching up.

As far as I can see we have a lot more to gain by working with China than with Taiwan.

It is time for America to begin thinking strategically. The days of when the US could simply dictate and the world would follow are long gone unfortunately.

I somehow omitted the word “up” in the following sentence: “I have to admit that when I was growing UP I never thought the US would be in the position that it is in today -- looking over its shoulder and seeing someone catching up.”

charlespmyers...

Sorry to burst your bubble, but don't believe the hype on China's military. There is only 1 MAJOR player in Asia when it comes to military might and that's Russia. Believe me when I say the South Korean (ROK) military is just as capable as China's.

Also, the Chinese taking over as the world's largest economy is only logical. That's what happens when modernization takes place in a country with a population well over a billion people. India will be #2 right behind China in a decade or so.

That the Japanese are increasingly looking to Beijing as a strategic partner at the expense of the longstanding relationship with the US? (China has overtaken the US as the number one trading partner of Japan)

When you say "at the expense of the longstanding relationship"...what do you mean? If you think the Japanese government is in the business of not protecting their own interest (like the US I might add) then you're sadly mistaken, but i wouldn't exactly call it at the expense of the relationship it has with the US. That sounds more like panic talk more than anything.

That because of the recent economic collapse that the US and most of the Western world has recently suffered that more of the developing world is turning away from the mantra of Democracy and free markets and looking to the Chinese as an example?

OK....What countries are now looking to follow the Chinese model and turning away from the idea of free market trading? In fact, what exactly do you think the Chinese economic model is?

And while you may have been one of many Americans that thought they would "never see the day" when the United States wasn't on top, you haven't prepared for the harsh reality of what's to come. Again, it sounds like panic talk. It's always only a matter of time. Empires rise and Empires fall! In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if in 30-40 years or so, Mexico or some other southern border country becomes a MAJOR player on the world stage.

Momus2009 there is no bubble to burst. I was responding to the comment posted by OnePatiot.

Since you have decided to "burst my bubble" I will respond to your comment directly.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but don't believe the hype on China's military. There is only 1 MAJOR player in Asia when it comes to military might and that's Russia. Believe me when I say the South Korean (ROK) military is just as capable as China's

Sadly, you are mistaken when it comes to the military topic. There is nothing to discuss here about that between the two of us. Instead, look up this very interesting white paper written by (who else) the ROK military:

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA479614&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf

Moving on to your second discussion point:

Also, the Chinese taking over as the world's largest economy is only logical. That's what happens when modernization takes place in a country with a population well over a billion people. India will be #2 right behind China in a decade or so.

What are you trying to say to me and how is it bursting my bubble? I already stated that (without even mentioning India) when I responded to OnePatriot so what is your reason to bring that up to me? If anything you and are in agreement on that point.

When you say "at the expense of the longstanding relationship"...what do you mean? If you think the Japanese government is in the business of not protecting their own interest (like the US I might add) then you're sadly mistaken, but i wouldn't exactly call it at the expense of the relationship it has with the US. That sounds more like panic talk more than anything.

How is that "panic talk"? The hot topic of the day between the Japanese and the US is the continued US military presence in Okinawa and by default in all of Japan. I merely stated what is obvious. If the Japanese kick us out then our capability to project our military power in Asia will be severely hobbled. That is far from panic talk that is just stating the need to work closely with China and Japan over the North Korean problem.

OK....What countries are now looking to follow the Chinese model and turning away from the idea of free market trading? In fact, what exactly do you think the Chinese economic model is?

I am not an economist so how you and I describe the Chinese economic model is irrelevant. The simple fact is that it works. It does not matter that it is Capitalist, Socialist, or some type of hybrid the simple undeniable fact is that it is working and working rather well. Have you not been reading the news lately? China has been making inroads all over the world diplomatically. I never said that anyone is looking away from free market trading. I only stated that more countries are looking at the Chinese model as an alternative to the unregulated free market system that just crashed on us. I certainly do not think that you can argue with me that our financial system failed miserably and that is about as free market as you can get so perhaps somewhere in between is better, no?

And while you may have been one of many Americans that thought they would "never see the day" when the United States wasn't on top, you haven't prepared for the harsh reality of what's to come. Again, it sounds like panic talk. It's always only a matter of time. Empires rise and Empires fall! In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if in 30-40 years or so, Mexico or some other southern border country becomes a MAJOR player on the world stage.

How is that "panic talk"? If anything what you wrote is "defeatist talk". If our economy had been properly managed then perhaps China would not be in the position that it is in now. The exportation of our industrial and manufacturing capacity to China is the greatest tragedy of our era. Chasing profits and looking out for the bottom line our greatest corporations have sold the US down the river without a paddle to swim back. That is something unforeseen by most Americans that the very global economic system that the dunderheads in Congress and economists in general sold the American public as the key to a better future has only weakened America.

Thank you for the stimulating discussion, Momus2009. You and have pretty much the same point of view. I just wish that there was something that could be done to reverse the situation before it is too late (if it is not already too late......).

charlespmyers...

My bad! After re-reading your post in response, I can see where I erred in my thinking of what you were trying to say in your original post. Touche my friend...Touche!

Momus2009, Charlespmyers: Just to add about the Chinese "economic model", do you think they would tolerate the type of financial institution behaviour that we here in the U. S. of A. do with Wall Street? From what I've read about punishment meted out in China against corrupt or irresponsible business leaders there, a lot of Wall Street CEOs and their top officers would be R.I.P. by now.

This country needs to recognize what is happening with China and begin making realistic adjustments now. China's rise cannot be stopped, so we need to plan on how to co-exist with it. First, we need a strong and technologically superior military, just in case, not seen as a threat, but as a formidable deterrent. Second, we need to protect the middle class in this country for the sake of our economic strength and viability, if the current trend continues on the path toward only a small but wealthy upper class and a much larger but impoverished lower class, the issue of a strong military becomes a moot point, there won't be enough funding to support such a military. This is what happened to the Roman Empire, its middle class was destroyed by a corrupt Senate and their friends, and the once strong and respected fabric of Roman society was destroyed.

@Momus2009:

Thanks!

Charles

@Roadhouse Blues:

I agree with you that in China they for sure would never stand for the shenannigans of the finanical (leaders) thieves like we have to here in the US. Who would ever have thought that a person could make money selling everyone into financial slavery and then get a bailout from the government? What the hell is going?

Lock these fools up and throw away the key. They deserve a lot worse.

charlespmyers -

Your rant was interesting until you got to here:
"That because of the recent economic collapse that the US and most of the Western world has recently suffered that more of the developing world is turning away from the mantra of Democracy and free markets and looking to the Chinese as an example?"

... and then it turned comical.
Please list the countries looking to freely impose a totalitarian government, take away production from the private sector, and severely censor all media. You can fit that list right in this space: > <

Don't confuse the actions of despots and lunatics as "free will" conversion.

It was predicted in the late 90s by think tanks that this century would be the Chinese Century, just as the 1900s was considdred the American Century by a lot of historians. Even then, it was obvious that an economic ramp up was inevitable. It doesn't mean that China is suddenly a happy place to live - there is still some mind blowing poverty in the rural areas. Incomes are still low. There is an entire town that has been ruined by toxic waste because it is where most of the dangerous components from old electronics are shipped to for breakdown.

Just because they are on the rise doesn't suddenly make their system the next great thing. The US system isn't perfect (not by a long shot sometimes), but the Chinese most think enough of it to try to emulate the capitalist side of it.

@tuxkevin:

You totally misunderstood what I was trying to say. Perhaps I should have worded it differently but I will attempt to clear up what I was trying to say right here.

Please read carefully what I posted earlier:

more of the developing world is turning away from the mantra of Democracy and free markets and looking to the Chinese as an example?

Do you see the word "developing"? I am talking about the "rest" of the world that is not yet developed (I am sorry to sound so condescending I am just trying to be clear). Many of them already have totalitarian governments so that isn't going to change. What could have changed is that they used to listen to the US as it beat them over the head about Democracy and free markets. Now, they are listening to the Chinese suggest to them to follow their example. And what example is that? Controlled and sustainable economic development without the chaos of Democracy.

There is nothing "comical" about that. In fact, the Chinese are gaining influence on our doorstep in Central and South America. Apparently the American example is not working out for the rest of the Americas as much as we would like to imagine. Too many examples to list here but just do some research and you will see that the Chinese are making significant progress in good will with our hemispherical neighbors.

Further more let me quote you on something that caught my eye:

there is still some mind blowing poverty in the rural areas. Incomes are still low

After what we have just lived through with the financial rape of America you just described a good portion of our own country so please get off the soap box. There is nothing comical in what I wrote even though it goes against everything we have been taught our whole lives that the big enemy is Communism and the lack of private enterprise. The corporations right here in America are doing a good job of wrecking the future by exporting capacity to China and India so perhaps a little more government control would actually be a good thing for a change in the economy. Hell, the government already owns most of the big banks and the automakers (exception is Ford). So what is so different now between us and the Chinese?

this kind of intelligence is always a last resort comment, when no reasonable arguments are put forward. Take my toys and go home.

Road House Blues,

Well said brother....

As someone who lived in Japan for over nine years, I can tell you that opposition to the US bases there is not the work of fifth columnists, but is the prevailing sentiment. The Japanese government, much like our own, has always cultivated xenophobia amongst its citizens to facilitate its aims, but in Japan, its common to keep one's thoughts to oneself, so it isn't that easy to discern, especially for foreigners.

Most Japanese are not fond of Americans. They consider us hairy, ignorant barbarians (and I sometimes have to agree), and they view our military bases and the ignorant servicemen (of which I was once one) a major imposition. In the present economic climate, they are very likely to seek at least a reduction in the number of both bases and personnel. Given several decades of American arrogance, who could blame them?

Wellman....you're typical of a fool that was stationed in Japan, went on a few deployments, watched AFRTS and left the base only to go to another base and learned absolutely NOTHING about the country you lived in. What you THINK is FACT is in FACT not FACT at all. Once you put the "Most Japanese" in your post, you made yourself look like a damn fool, because I can assure you that you don't know MOST Japanese people.

And how would you hope to assure me of that, Momie? I got out of the service, landed a job with a Japanese firm, went back and lived on the economy, taught myself to speak, read and write Japanese (I used to read the Yomiuri Shinbun on the train going to work each morning), became a resident alien (I had all the rights of a Japanese citizen except voting in elections), was the only gaijin in my firm, so I basically lived, ate and breathed the culture for the whole time I was there. My wife, a Japanese citizen, and I just celebrated our 22nd wedding anniversary.

Any other guesses about me you'd care to hazard? You know you're batting 1000 so far, right? (deafening silence) That's on all subjects.

Swing and a miss!

Like I said, you're typical of a fool that was stationed in Japan, went on a few deployments, watched AFRTS and left the base only to go to another base and learned absolutely NOTHING! LMAO

You know what's so funny about you dude, you still don't know jack-bone about MOST Japanese people. I'm willing to bet your wife doesn't know many Japanese people herself. Yeah, she has a few friends probably and some family, but that don't mean JACK! I was stationed in Atsugi, Yokosuka and Sasebo (8 years total). I "lived on the economy" for 6 years myself before coming back to the states after I got out of the NAVY too. I didn't need to marry a JN to learn the culture or the language though. I was immersed in it before the day I landed at Narita. To me, you're just another yagi that thinks he knows what's going on in Japan, because he married a JN. Me and my Japanese partners I used to work with used to laugh at clowns like you. In fact, I've probably seen you before if you were hanging out in Ginza in the early 90's. Hell, I might even know your wife if she hung out in Roppongi! LMAO

Roppongi's for needledick losers that can't get laid any other way. You couldn't distinguish between a Japanese and a transplanted Korean hooker. The fact that you're using the term 'JN' shows your typical Navy ignorance, and if you can understand Japanese as you claim, kurushinde mou touzen darou. I won't hold my breath waiting for you to look that up. You couldn't read or write a single kanji to save your worthless life, and you have the @!$%#ing nerve to get on this site like the anonymous little coward you are and spout off as though you know something. I'll bet you even say 'yakooska' for Yokosuka.

You know nothing about me or my family. I do know that when your mother takes her teeth out, it's pure heaven, but she's a @!$%# eating dog like her son. Kutabare!

LMAO!!!!!! Touch a nerve did I? Yeah, I bet your two-bit JN of a wife got down in Roppongi. Oh what fun it was to ride! Yeah, I know your kind buddy. I probably used to bang your wife went you went on deployment. LMAO

And I know how to say Yo-ko-su-ka! Just like Sa-se-bo...and At-su-gi! LOL

Teme...Atama Okashii jane-no? Kono kani shi-tsu mon ga arimasuka? LOL

And then you break out the "your mama jokes" and you have the nerve to call me a loser? BLAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!! Tell your ol' lady I said hello! LMAO

I used to think LMAO meant 'laughing my ass off', but since you use it after each instance of displaying your ignorance, I'll assume it means 'love mouthing anal orifi'.

Where in my post is the term J-A? Can you even read English? No wonder you have to take potshots at third parties, since you can't connect ideas in a logical fashion. Aho.

Wellman...you're a funny guy! Your assumptions are just so funny! I had you pegged from the beginning and that's why you're angry. Hey man, it's OK if you couldn't get laid in the states and that's why you had to pluck a JN from her country to marry you. You might want to be careful though....she actually might be an undercover Korean! LOL

Baka nanoni sore-o shiranai....TEME!!!!!!!! LOL

Why don't you two just kiss and make up now?

I mean, really. You both sound like you're already married.

Momus2009, I guess you want to say sore wa shiranai. It's funny to see 2 beikokujins to speak curse words in Japanese.

What are you talking about? Racism? Someone always has to say whites are racist. Who has invested more into Asia the whitey? Who trades more with them than whitey? Whos culture has had a more positive influence on their standard of living than whitey? Get off of my nutsak dude.

Its flattering you are so obsessed with me and my people, but, I prefer Blond-haired, blue-eyed, female stalkers. kthxbye

Who has invested more into Asia the whitey? Who trades more with them than whitey? Whos culture has had a more positive influence on their standard of living than whitey?

Ummmm...Asians perhaps???? LMAO

You only perceive the West as racist because we actually have to contend with racial diversity. Funny how the ones from racially homogeneous and insular places point the finger of racism. When you open the flood gates of immigration to the extent that your people face becoming minorities in nearly every land to which they are native, then you can say something about racism. It's like being critical of someone's swimming when you've never even been in the pool. Lots of non-White faces in the West, how many round eyes in Asia?

Unfortunately the only country more xenophobic than China is Japan, but Japan hides it better.

And that noble gesture might be fine except America and most of the west gave up a massive amount of manufacturing to China already. Too late now, this is the end game.

Western business acted in haste and WE are now free to repent at leisure.

We gave China licence to enslave us all.

In the current economic situation, Walmart is doing relatively better than the more expensive outfits. Everyone is trying to stretch his dollar rather than let politics get to their head.

Capitalism took those manufacturing jobs overseas. Everyone wants to talk about high taxes imposed on companies and what not, but at the end of the day, all of those companies that took jobs overseas to protect their bottom-line with outrageous profits, have created this situation. "Buy American" sounds good and bringing manufacturing jobs back to the US sounds even better, but unfortunately Obama was right when he said, those jobs aren't coming back.

Capitalism offshored the manufacturing jobs, thus gutting union and non-union blue collar workers. The Chinese government accepted FDI foreign direct investment in order to provide factory jobs for millions of rural and urban workers, thus importing the industrial revolution which the emperors previously rejected. The lack of US diplomatic recognition for 30 years of PRC government did not make the transition smoother. Cold War ideology did not credit Third World socialism with liberation movements to overthrow Western colonialism which still exists as neoliberalism. Western media bias had made Made in China a bogeyman which manipulates misperceptions into Blaming the Victim rather than the capitalists.

Momus, I have to disagree. We can not just blame these companies on taking the jobs overseas, we the American people have to share this blame. Unions seeking very high pay or very high benefits and striking to get these, grievances by union and companies that cost my company millions of dollars per year, just at my plant. I am not saying some are without basis, but our unions grieve everything. We have the second highest corporate tax rate in the world. The second highest. We put laws in that mandate certain things to companies. We have all these environmental laws that push the cost of doing business up. You add up all these and yes we are partially to blame, a company will go overseas to have less of the wages, benefits, laws, and environmental regulations. Whether we agree or not, they are in business to make their stockholders money. We make it easy for them to go overseas. Back on China, eventually, they can play us like a puppet. The Chinese hold the most of our debt. The only way out of this is to get a hold of our deficits, pay the creditors back, and only be beholding to ourselves.

Mark, I can see where you're coming from, but when you bring in the "we have the 2nd highest corporate tax in the world", yet this country is one of the 5 richest in the world, all I can say is with higher taxes comes a better way of life...not only for the fat cats, but also the everyday 9-5 bub out there that's just trying to make it. I'm willing to bet a dollar to a dime that if the Corporations hadn't sent all of those jobs from Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Pennsylvania, and a lot of other places here, the economy wouldn't be in as bad a shape as it is right now, WITH that 2nd highest corporate tax. Don't blame the unions for only trying to get better benefits for the working man. I'm not a union man myself, but I can see where without unions, the little man would constantly stay bent over taking it up the patoot. If companies would only follow common decency practices when it comes to compensating workers instead of trying to sliver out of paying what is really due, then there would be no need for unions.

Momus, can you then imagine where we would be if we lowered these tax rates? Companies would have a better atmosphere to bring and/or keep their businesses in the United States. Whether you or others like to admit it, the unions held the auto companies hostage. If they were to strike, they eventually shut down all the assembly and parts plants. I do not begrudge any one trying to get a higher wage, but when unions were getting $30 per hour and more, the best health benefits, wage increases, cost of living increases on top, job security, and pensions worth the national average per year wages, it was going to do nothing more than send their jobs overseas. I have talked with many union assembly workers. They had people punching them in and out of the time clock. The would get their quotas for the day in 3 - 5 hours and shut their machines down for the rest of the day. I know what is like. I was a union member in good standing and saw a lot of this. I believe you had stated that you owned your own business. What happens if the government raises your taxes, forces you to pay for healthcare, passes the card check and your employees form a union and force you to raise your wages and benefits, imposes new laws, new environmental rules and regulations. Whether you or others like it, the $30 per hour jobs are gone. That again, is part of the reason these companies haved moved. Every person out there that has one iota of common sense and brains know that you go out of business, move overseas, lay off your workers, etc. It is only common sense. If you taxes are lowered, you can now have more money to spend, expand, and/or higher more workers, even pay them more. What are the common decency practices you talk about? You can't pay workers more when you do not have it. You can not afford to give them benenits or better benefits if you can not afford it. I am middle class and it is pathetic the amount of taxes I pay/the government keeps. When you have 40 - 55 percent of the population not paying taxes, it is not right. Whether we all like it or not, we should all have to pay something for the services we receive and should not be a free ride on people like me. Also, it is pathetic that some people making millions of dollars pay less or nothing at all in income taxes. I live in Michigan and have seen for decades, our politicians say that we are the automotive city of the world, as automotive jobs were leaving the state. We have not been an automotive capital for 20 or more years. Michigan is finally getting their heads out of the sand and realizing this and now trying to get more jobs outside of the auto industry to come in to the state. They are starting to do pretty good at this.

Mark,

I'd like to point out a couple of things. First, unions didn't hold a gun to anyone's head, they simply threatened to withhold their labor. The automakers decided that it was in their best interests to pay them a decent wage so they could keep making their profits, and if the wages were so egregious, that wouldn't have been the case. Second, although with time the process became less hazardous, auto making was historically a backbreaking, very dangerous job, with many mutilations from the machinery, back problems causing early retirement, etc. I'd also add that before unionization occurred, it was common for the manufacturers (particularly one starting with an F) to have their own gangs of hired thugs patrol the shops and factories to root out suspected organizers, and it's well documented that these thugs routinely beat up these men, sometimes in their own homes, as a means of large-scale intimidation. I'm not saying that union members have never done anything wrong, but this was a fight that the manufacturers picked, and I can't feel sympathy for them. If you're from Michigan, you need only ask a few of your elderly neighbors to verify what I've said.

You also make the point about how it's fair for everyone to pay in (tax-wise, provided they have an income), yet we have a wealthy elite which pays no taxes. Again, I have no sympathy for the way in which these forces have abused the class system in this country to feather their nests at the expense of the working people. Now they'd like to pit us against each other so they can buy up what's left for pennies on the dollar. The sooner workers realize how badly we've been cheated, the sooner we can start to dig out of this mess.

David, yes they did in no other terms hold a gun to their head. What is the alternative to rejecting their proposals? The union go out on strike and put them out of business? That is their option. The company caves in to their demands or lose billions of dollars. The unions are no different than the companies they work for. The not only want a piece of the pie, they want as large of a piece as they can. What happened to the auto companies are the results of $30 per hour wages, cola increases, the best benefits around, and pensions that are better than the rest of the industries doing business. Great, they go what the wanted. But now they pay the price and whine like little sally's because now the auto companies declared bankruptcy and can't pay them like they did in the past. The bankruptcies are proof of what I have said. The companies do share some of the blame, but so does the unions that work in their factories. If you read what I said, I also agree that their are people making millions of dollars and not paying taxes or paying less than myself, being middle class. But, it is not fair for someone making more than a million, paying 40 - 50 percent in federal taxes, state taxes, city taxes, property taxes, etc and others not paying a dime in income taxes. Why do you think people have fled out of California and New York? If you live in New York City and under proposals in the federal government with income tax, if you add up all I stated above, they will be at 65 - 75 percent of their income in taxes. It should not be a crime to be wealthy. We should not be a nation of what the rich owe me. Not every one was meant to own a house, car, etc. You work for it on your own and it is not up to the government to make it possible. Why do you think we are in this mess? People who could not afford it, got the loans. I am old enough to know about a lot of what went on with the unions. There is blame to go around company and union, of intimidation.

David Wellman , I wanted to jump in here several times but you beat me to it. You express my thoughts and opinions precisely. I might add that these corporations were then allowed to bring those products back to America with little or no import taxes. Our politicians were in bed with the corporations and our constantly lowering economic status is the direct result. We can and must stop this. Whatever they saved by shipping our jobs overseas, tax them equally to sell them in our country. Many prices would increase and further depress the American people for awhile. The American people have sacrificed greatly in the past for the betterment of our nation. It's time, once again, to step up to the plate. Living in an America that is reduced to a third world country is the alternative.

To Commonsense,

I'm sorry if I wasn't giving you a chance to speak your piece - that was never my intention. I just got back from shopping with the missus and checked in. Yeah, I'd say that an objective look at the history of collusion between our government and the automotive manufacturers shows that we've been had, e.g. the great mass transit system LA had before WWII that was dismantled because it was 'obsolete' so Detroit could sell more cars. It's all there for anyone who cares to look.

To Mark,

I'm still having trouble with your analogy: so, in a system of 'free enterprise' where employer and employed are free to enter into and exit employment contracts at will (I'm quoting the big boys here - my mind is not this twisted), how could employees 'hold a gun to the head of management' by exercising their rights to withhold skilled labor - wouldn't it have been a case of a Management miscalculation? "The bankruptcies are proof of what I have said." I'd think that in a system where individual responsibility is so emphasized, Management would step up and take the rap for decades of poor decisions in design, marketing, and most of all, meeting the challenge of foreign competition, but now I find it was those stinking labor unions what done us wrong. This is so reminiscent of the Nazi spiel about Jews that it would be funny if it weren't so sick. (No, I'm not calling you a Nazi, but there are parallels in your reasoning that you might want to consider working on.)

Before anyone else accuses me of something ludicrous, or tells me I know nothing about what I'm saying, just bear with me while I outline what I think might be a better way for our country to address its problems. I wish I could remember the name of the fact-based book (I read it several years ago) that described one man's efforts to rescue his company, a small engine re-builder in Missouri, from bankruptcy. It was a system of near-total honesty, where management's pay was known to all the employees, as well as the company's bottom line. All production goals and information were shared with all workers, and bonuses were given every six months when production levels were met. If the goals were missed, even by 0.001%, the bonuses were not paid, but no one complained because they had the information needed to see for themselves that it was true, and not a trick to enrich management at their expense. Managers also had comparatively lower salaries in this firm (and I have seen this in the real world, in Japan when I worked there, so I know it's a viable approach). In essence, everyone in the company was in the same boat - ifone profited, they all did, and if the company failed, they all failed. In the book, he was able to save his firm, and the jobs that depended on it. I'm sure that I will be called a Communist for proposing this, but why does no one want to do this in America? Because they are so used to screwing over the workers for big bucks here that they consider it their birthright, that's why, and they'd rather run the country into the ground than change.

I don't hate anyone because they're rich (kind of a craven accusation when you think of it - who has all the advantages in such a dichotomy, and how did it arise in the first place?), nor, do I believe, do most Americans, but the dice were loaded from the start; viewing the arrogance that accompanies conspicuous consumption grows wearisome over time, as does being on the receiving end of the contempt that is exuded by people whose only accomplishment in life was their choice of parents. But then, I'm sure you weren't trying to get me to feel sympathy for my 'betters' now, were you.

Stick and stones ..............

Problem????

What "Problem" are the Chinese leaders running from? Communism? Totalitarianism?

Amazingly, the average Chinese citizen is very pleased with their government. It just goes to show you that as long as the economy is doing well and people are feeling like they are getting ahead who cares about "freedom". Please remember that what you consider totalitarian to others is just effective and strong government. Surely you are not holding up our (the US) dysfunctional political system as an example are you? If so, then I am afraid that you are actually hurting the spread of "freedom" in the world.

According to your equation above I will play the devil's advocate here:

USA = Democracy. Democracy = chaos, ineffectual government, one of the highest murder and incarceration rates of the developed world.

USA = Capitalism and free markets. Capitalism and free markets = take the money from the people and give it to the bankers, tax the middle class and give tax cuts to the rich, export all of our manufacturing jobs to China.

I wish what I just wrote was not true but it is.

The Chinese like their situation, because the government tells them they do. The difference between democracy and communism.

It is hard to give a tax break to over 50 percent do not pay any.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/542.html

Whether we like it or not, the wealthy are the ones to hire. Tax them more and they do not spend or hire. Pretty logical. Even obama's economists talked about the trickle down theory.

Totalitarianism and democracy are the political opposites, but capitalism will work under either situation. Even Thomas Freidman has stated that he wish he could be China for a week, and force through all sorts of reforms that would put the US on the right track. Alas, China has shown us that you do not have to have a democracy to allow free market capitalism to thrive--the old capitalism vs. communism paradigm does not really exist. The Chinese government has created a playing field that allows industry to grow, while keeping out many of those pesky problems like environmental protection and consumer safety (until a manufacturer gets caught putting poison in formula, then they haul the owner out and shoot him.)

For a description of this idea, see: http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/62644/azar-gat/the-return-of-authoritarian-great-powers

It is our messy system of laws and regulations and popular vote that hamper business from growing as fast as they want to--which is why they continuously fight against regulations. Remember the old saw of "the government is not the solution"? Well, the US government is seen as not part of the solution, but the Chinese government has the power to clear out the roadblocks businessmen detest.

Rigger, you are correct. Our laws, rules, regulations, taxes, and now the uncertainty of what mandates may be coming out of Washington are deterring job growth and reinvestment. Businesses are so afraid of what may be mandated, that they are not hiring. I watched a story on a channel a few years back. I still remember what sign was on the wall of the factory. It stated "work hard on your job today, or work hard looking for a job tomorrow". There are tens of thousands of people to step in to every job in China.

Huh. . .?

This is what Crystal Meth does to you...say no to drugs people.

WTF??? Too funny! LMAO

This one confused me at first. I think the writer has an accent. After I got a rhythm half way into it supplanting with a Tim Conway swedish accent from the old Carol Burnet shows, I think it's accent more than anything else. Still didn't make much of it though.

Bill......ditto!

Syntax much?

Hopefully(Thank God) you will get to live under Chinese rule soon. Their human rights record makes the U.S. look like Sudan. Ask Tibet, they are loving it.

And ask the Iraqis and muslims.

European nations won't be liking China crowing like a rooster either. With the exception of some eastern european nations, most developed european countries will wind up screwed along with everyone else.

The interesting thing now will be to see if China can stop itself from developing a bubble (which is starting to appear in many sectiors). Nations need to divest itself of Chinese capital and investment before it pops. Best to limit exposure now rather than get sucked into the vortex that will ensue.

Don't blame Truman on this one. If the United States had kept its promise to Japan after World War I and kept her as an Ally, then Japan would have kept China in check and they'd be Japan's Taiwan right now.

True, but then instead of Okinawa, we'd be fighting over Oklahoma. Japan was quite a world power at the time and every bit as hungry as China is.

If Truman had listened to MacArthur there wouldn't be a PRC and if Patton had gotten his way Russia wouldn't be a problem either.

You ASSUME Japan would have wanted to invade the US. By your logic, the British should have thought about invading the US after World War II then. What part of they were our ALLIES before the US broke its promise after World War I don't you get? It doesn't make any sense to make assumptions like that dude. The Japanese had no interest in invading the US, especially when they already had citizens living here, just like the US had American citizens living in Japan.

Had the Japanese kept their incursions into Siberia and Manchuria after World War I, the entire Pacific rim would have looked very different. Siberia might have been just the natural resource-filled location the Japanese needed to create a thriving industrial sector.

What if history is always fun, but does not change what happened. The practice only lets us isolate potential and probable causes.

Actually, I was referring to the Japanese economic might which would have existed had WWII not destroyed their country. Much like China today, we would have been effectively bought out by them. You notice we are not in a war over the current problem with Okinawa.

I'm also curious about the promise we broke. Not Lansing-Ishii was it?

Also we are getting a bit off topic for this thread.

Really, I think all these issues and more need to be considered when trying to work out these problems. Our leadership tends to look more to Europe and the Middle East than to Asia as flash-points, as it has for 200 years. It is time those who understand Asia come forward and help us parse this out.

I think you can look to the Lansing-Ishii treaties, as well as the Washington Naval Agreements of 1921 that limited the Japanese fleets as causes of concern in the Pacific.

This history lesson is very nice, but we got ourselves into this mess. Or I should say our gov't got us into it by thier constant spending and TOO MUCH GOVT!!!!!! How many other countries have millions of people on gov't payrolls and retirement plans???? How many gov'ts continue to pay elected officials after they have been unseated?????????? This may be trivial to some of you unless you do the math. BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars every year go to gov't employees with golden parachute retirement programs. There isn't a country in the world who puts out the kind of money we do after someone works for six years or twenty years. Then you have the double dippers that get another gov't job and do another 20 years and have two pensions!!!

This is wonderful for the people who have done this, but now we have to pay for it! People should not be automatically retired after 20 years, there is NO COUNTRY that can sustain the financial burden that we have and survive financially!!!!!!

Just ask the big 3 and other corporations that are trying to survive and aren't because of thier retirement programs. EVERYONE overlooks the gov't when it comes to this because we just keep paying. So all of you who have elected to have bigger gov't might want to look at what you have created. A MONSTROCITY that will never end until the gov't itself sets new guidelines for retirement, as in letting the civil servant start thier own retirement program just as we do and pay into social security!

THIS is one of the reasons the chinese will be repossessing US!!!!!!!! The U.S. GOV"T is getting stimulus money from china just like the BIG 3 and other corporations who can't pay for retirement programs. Trivial' but like I said, DO THE MATH!!!!!!!!

Momie,

Those Japanese who emigrated to America and other countries were no longer viewed as citizens, or even fellow countrymen, by the Japanese in Japan, so their presence in the US was not entered into the equation. If you even understood the basics of concepts such as uchi and soto, you wouldn't need this explained to you, but your ignorance of Japanese culture is profound. If a link existed between these groups, then the Japanese government would have used Issei and probably Nissei as a spy network, yet despite decades of John Birch society people trying to prove such a link, to date, no reliable proof of such has ever been shown.

Yep, still batting 1000 - keep it up, it's entertaining.

Like I said Wellman, you don't KNOW JACK-BONE about nothing! LMAO That inside/outside BS only applies to Japanese that became citizens of another country, i.e. the US or Brazil and such. LMAO

You can sit there and recite all of that BS that you've read in books all day, but you still don't have the slightest clue about Japanese culture as a whole. I bet your pretty little wife doesn't know jack-bone either and that's why you THINK you know so much. What I do KNOW for a FACT though, is that a lot of those Japanese families that you're talking about were actually paid to come here for one reason or another. You don't have to take my word for it though...do your own research since you want to seem like you're so much on the up and up about Japanese in America. And not once did I even say anything about Japanese-Americans. LMAO

Pumpuiyai said "and all because Truman wouldn't listen to MacArthur"

"If Truman had listened to MacArthur there wouldn't be a PRC"

That kind of statement by redneck Americans make Kim Jong Ill and Ahmedinajad look pretty good like saints. USA always think of using nuclear weapons of mass destruction to "prevail" over all adversaries. IT always threaten all adversaries and non-nuclear countries with weapons of mass destruction. It is on record as the only country that has drop nuclear bombs on another country and murdered hundreds of thousands of people. The USA is the only country that is always trigger happy and is always ready to nuke other countries that does not agree with it.

The USA is a super World Terrorist . No wonder North Korea and Iran want to arm itself with nuclear weapons. No wonder that China increased its defence budget to modernise its missiles and other weapons.

You are confusing the Chinese with the Japanese.

"You are confusing the Chinese with the Japanese"

Americans cannot tell the difference between tofo and doufu. That was why an American murdered a Chinese instead of a Japanese due to mistaken identity. The American crazy nut case killed the Chinese because he was angry that the Japanese were selling too many cars to America and there was trade friction between America and Japan in the 1980's. I think he was released and set free because he was "rightfully" mistaken and the judge thought he has the freedom to murder Chinese and Japanese based on the law of Manifest Destiny.

What are you smoking?

Whatever it is that you are smoking RMagtajas please share it with the rest of us.....

Last time I bothered to look at where my laptop computer was made or my flat screen TV or my mobile phone or the memory chips in my desktop computer or my GPS they were all made in China. So I guess that we can just buy American instead?

Good idea if there was an American option but there isn't. So what now? Go back to a farming based society?

And what are you trying to say about "capital" flowing from Taiwan to China? What the hell are you saying, man? Educate yourself on the facts. The money is flowing the other way and the Chinese are rapidly buying up Taiwan so one day they may not have to invade at all. They probably will just own Taiwan anyway.

The US should tell China to behave

That is the entire point of the article--China is through being told to do anything by anyone. Period. China has its big boy pants on now.

You are one piece of work, dude. Sell Central Park? Wow! What an imagination!

Oh, one more thing. There are an estimated 195 countries in the world. If you sent 10 million Chinese to each country, you would run out of Chinese at about 130 countries. There are only an estimated 1.3 billion Chinese.

Sounds like they're in a race with the Muslim's for world domination through infiltration, wonder who will win?

"Be the chief but never the lord."

---Lao Tzu

And your premise is that the tens of millions of chinese emigrating to other countries will indoctrinate the residents with their brand of politics. It takes only one generation to be assimiliated by the host country.

If "Communism is a failed system", how on earth could China loan to America US$800b? How did they managed to lift the greatest number of people out of poverty in the shortest time? And now they have the strongest economy in the world that even democratic Greece has to approach for help to bail them out. And you say their communism is a failure? Iceland, Greece, Spain, GB, Hungary, etc are communists?

If "Communism is a failed system", how on earth could China loan to America US$800b?

Probably because we've been giving it to them for about thirty-odd years! And they just don't do business with us, so they've got cash flowing in from around the world.

And communism--at least the classical kind espoused by Karl Marx--hasn't yet worked.

Communism is a social structure in which classes are abolished and property is commonly controlled, as well as a political philosophy and social movement that advocates and aims to create such a society.

(Please forgive the use of Wikipedia...but they have links in case the content has been buggered up in the meantime)

"Pure communism" in the Marxian sense refers to a classless, stateless and oppression-free society where decisions on what to produce and what policies to pursue are made democratically, allowing every member of society to participate in the decision-making process in both the political and economic spheres of life.

That doesn't seem to be the case in China (although I admit I'm on the outside looking in and only have Western media for my sources.) China still seems to be ruled by the Communist Party which does not allow democratic elections and which still vigorously censors its populace (which is still divided by class.)

However, they do have an economic model that appears to have done a phenomenal job of lifting them from a second-rate Soviet Union dependent to a world-class economy. I doubt it's communism, though, so TJ's right.

When you say "their communism," that's the key. Whatever they've developed works for them. As much as I hate to say it, it might be worth looking at and adapting.

Yes，the true Marxism has never succeed in the world. It is a great idea but just can not survive in the bad human nature.

You are absolutely right!!!

We have big problems here.

Can you imagine how quickly their economy would collapse the second we banned Chinese imports?

What do you think would happen if China refused to buy our debt?

America is not going to sink into a black hole and disappear. We're not going to be annexed by China, debt or no debt.

We're not here because we are particularly smart, and so being particularly stupid won't destroy us. We're here because our country is incredibly resource rich and diverse. We can literally support ourselves and still maintain the strongest military on earth while living off the global grid.

The U.S. is the largest trading and investment partner for almost all countries in the global economy. China has taken over South America recently. But China is even more arrogant than the U.S. and has no human rights position to maintain.

Ask yourself if maybe our leaders aren't total idiots. Ask yourself if maybe they are forcing China's hand so it will display its obnoxious arrogance to those who would love to see the U.S. humbled.

We got here on our own two feet. We've had very little help throughout the centuries. If China wants to eat our debt, it better start chewing now because it's a very big meal.

Goatis, You are thinking too short term. Right at this moment it may be true that the Chicoms are also dependent upon us as well.

This will change. Once they have the same relationship with enough greedy countries. And they are successful in getting the Chinese won the money of choice.

Then their power will be unstoppable. They will be able to dived and conquer at will.

You think its bad being dependent upon the Arab world for our oil now. It works because they are fractured and don't act as a single force.

The Chinese are not fractured and they do act as a single force. We buy their junk. They use the money and turn around and own our house.

What a bunch of idiots we are.

Goalltis

Only 15% of China export goes to US, the rest is with EU and Asian+ Japan & Korean. In addition the growing domestic market means China only export half of her manufacturing proudct .

If US ban China imports, only US consumers will suffer as there is no alternative since most of the stuff sale in US are made-in-China. Also US consumers will have no means to buy alternative products which will be a lot more expensive than those made in China.

Can you imagine how quickly their economy would collapse the second we banned Chinese imports?

I was going to kick in my two cents worth but Heinrich beat me. We'd be shooting ourselves in our feet. The way out of this Taiwan situation wouldn't be through economic sanctions; we're too dependent on their imports.

The Chinese (and Koreans) have eaten "tofu" for more years than the Japanese. Tofu is just the Japanese name for this food. This is meaningless in relation to the subject.

Tofu has been invented by Chinese over 2000 years ago. The Chinese name sounds like Dofu. From my knowledge, the recipe arrived in Japan 1300 ago with many otherthings, including the writing form of Japanese (yes, no kanji or kana in Japan before).

It isn't the corporate republican elites to blame here. It is every swing sausage that walks in the doors of walmart or any other retailer demanding the cheapest whatever. You want to make a difference? Look at the products you buy and make a change.

Evil-1460911 writes:

"It isn't the corporate republican elites to blame here. It is every swing sausage that walks in the doors of walmart or any other retailer demanding the cheapest whatever. You want to make a difference? Look at the products you buy and make a change."

Wrong. It was the Republican Corporate Elites strategy to break unions and the middle class by shipping jobs to Mexico, India and China, for larger profits and bigger bonuses for the Corporate Republican Executives by forcing Americans to compete against low wage, and slave labor markets of third world nations. It all started with Reagan and the creation of the WTO and the North American Accord. Lower prices and the American consumer had nothing to do with any of it. People were still buying products when they were made in America, because they were making a decent living making those same products. It was a perpetual cycle of supply and demand.

It seems as if American gov and business have been more concerned about the status and position of the American worker especially unions and organized labor. Remember the 1984 breakup of the bell system and ATT. All phone phones and equipment were made by western electric and designed by bell labs , which don't exist today. Lucent techologies was forced to merge with French manufacturer Alcatel. Go into any retail store to buy a phone and you will see that they're all made in China for the most part, along with just about any other small appliance.

I just bought a clock radio from wallmart an RCA model, a company that used to manufacture in the US. Checked the bottom of box and come to find , made in China. The old model that I threw out was a 12 yr old GE and checked the bottom before chucking it and was suprised to see made in China.

Our econony is opening up the floodgates to much more chinese products for domestic consumption. I recently bought a set of new tires from sears and I come to find out after the fact that the japanese sounding brand that I bought were actually made in China. It's becoming harder to buy American. I'll be damed if I will buy a chinese Haier TV, large appliance or car. To hell with them.

Unions can be a problem for American business at times I know , but you don't have to guess were they loyalty lies. It's with this nation and the survival of it. Our sons and daughters are good enough to go off to war. Well their good enough to be able to find American jobs paying a decent wage and not coolie wages in this economy.

On another note, I'm still waiting to see what happens to AIG, a company very instrumental to the near collapse of the whole American economy and deemed too big to fail and subseqently bailed out by the tax payer at a tune of 180 billion dollars. It would seem fitting that they should be forced to divest and be reorganized into entities that are not too big to fail. At&t was never in position to threaten the stability of the country and it was broken up. Oh but then again AIG doesn't have a unionized work force so the SOBS will probably get a pass. To hell with that too.

Evil-1460911 writes:

"I can tell the world real quick how to deal with them. QUIT BUYING ALL THAT CHEAP S>>>> THEY MAKE. We have no one to blame but ourselves."

Easier said than done. When all the electronics, textiles, and durable goods manufacturing resides in China.

Evil...that's a very unrealistic approach this problem. Weary is right!

Sounds great, like telling people to flap their arms and fly! Two major problems:

1. How much "made in America" is there today?

2. $$$$$. In 2001, wonderful Lucent Technologies' top management screwed the pooch, putting the company in serious financial troubles, so they solved the problem by forcing me and thousands of other engineers out of the door (some 6 months after sending about 200 of our jobs to China). I struggled for quite a while, no engineering jobs available, especially when you are in your mid-50s. I now have a job, but make only 25% of what I used to in 2001 dollars. So yes, I go to Walmart, and make no apologies for it, don't blame me, blame corporate America. Give me my old job back, and I'll be more than happy to "Buy American", if I can find it!

I'm sorry to hear of your troubles, RB, but this illustrates what I've been talking about on this and other threads for some time. The US corporate elite has sold us (I'm in the same boat as you) down the river, not for any real reasons other than improving quarterly profits, although the ongoing class struggle doubtless plays a part. Now they foresee a time when they might make a few bucks by having a military action against China, and they are starting to whip up sentiment to back it - didn't we just do this a few years ago with disastrous results? I, for one, have learned my lesson, and don't plan to support any more of this stupidity. If they want our support, they can share the wealth: strange, but when the rich do that, it's called 'driving a hard bargain', yet when people of lesser means try it, we're labeled 'Communists'.

Roadhouse Blues,

I feel soory for your story. My parents are university professors in China. They are at the same age of you. The sum of their wages is even less than the wage of my cousin, a mid-30 master worker in a big factory. Anyway we have to survive in the unfair society.

I remember when John Pomfret arrived in Beijing, wet behind the ears, in 1988.

Thanks for identifying Western media bias. The Wash Post features his little cartoon caricature with green Mao cap and red star. What is pushed as analysis is simply the Western dominant narrative.

"More peace with Tibet and India?" ROFLMAO, you are one seriously brain washed fool.

The currency of China is called the renminbi or RMB of short. I very much agree with you points, especially your last comment about the change in leadership and what might happen.

We can't hardly demand anything from China since they own most of our debt and would not be able to pay it if they come to collect. We have to stop this. We can not keep spending. Both parties have been equal to blame.

#3 Start penalizing companies that move jobs out of the country and into China. Give them insentives if they stay. China is giving huge insentives to our companies to close down operations here and start up over there.

Okay, we should drastically reduce taxes on the ones who make domestic jobs and put the unions on a leash (to bring domestic labor costs down). But neither Obama nor the Democrat majority are likely to allow either of those things. We might have to wait a while.