Isn't that the truth. People call the lottery a tax on stupidity... I think this takes the cake.

Real charities and real human service agencies are going under, and these fantasy merchants are raking in millions. Time to eliminate the tax exemption for these snak oil vendors, and put them on the same foting as the rest of California's entertainment industry.

The Greeks used to build monuments to their gods like we build mega-churches today. Around the 5th century B.C., their mythology gave way to philosophy and rationalism. Too bad we've regressed as a species.

Wow! This TOTALLY Disgusts me! :-(

That's all I can even say!

And now that he's starting this year 1.3 million ahead, anyone want to bet he ends this year needing more too??

Praise the Lord but send your money to me!!! Fools & their money are soon parted!!!

He should now offer help to his out of work congregation. That would be the Christian thing to do, but......we all know he won't.

and they shall drink the kool-aid and be thankful.

URQ196 Heaven ?? you believe that stuff too? when you die that's it. heaven is the carrot that they hold up to get your money.

And these "fat cats" get a percentage of that. What a gig. If I had less morals I would start my own "Bronco Bob's" mega church, but my conscience wont let me. This to me is the best legal way to rip people off that I have ever seen, and trust me when I tell you there is NOTHING Biblical about it.

If you go into predominantly poor neighborhoods you'll find that many of these church goers want to be pastors, preachers or whatever you may want to call them for this very reason, little work and a LOT of pay. Many of them will tell you they have been "called by God" when in fact most of the time its "called by GREED and SLOTHNESS"

Doesnt he have a lot of money?? After all The Purpose Driven Life raked in a couple of millions of dollars. Think about this. There were a total of 20 million copies sold. Now, lets just say the book was sold at $10.00 which is 4.99 less than what the Publisher is selling it at. He made 200,000,000 on the book and it is even counting because its over 20 million sold. Now you have to remember how much Zondervan made so you take at most half of it. and you have $100,000,000. So the guy is filthy rich. His church doesnt even need donations yet. Do you know that the Saddleback Churchs average attendance is 20,000?? And if 10% of people are out of a job, then he has A LOT OF MONEY TO SUPPORT THEM HIMSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I used to live in CA, and having visited recently, I'd say this money should be used to clean up the freeways.

CA is just plain nasty these days!

Oh stop with the hysterics. You don't give a damn about helping anyone, you just want to rant. If you care about your community, churches are a great way to show it. They help needy families, the elderly and provide food/clothing for people right under your nose that you don't even bother to look for. If you're suspicious of the big megachurches, there's plenty of very small (poor) community churches that you can donate to.

Unknowledgeable comments from those who really know nothing of Warren or what it is the church is doing with the money.

Warrens Church does more outreach than probably some states do for people. A read through the article tells you what is going on with the money... but most of you who are writing are just somehow adamantly against Christianity or any work of Christianity. And what does Rick Warren do with the money from his "best selling book"? Look it up and see.

Does he live a lavish life? I don't think so in light of the fact that his organizations are some of the biggest Christian outreaches and networks in the world.

Get a life. If it were to pocket the money I would agree with every one of you naysayers... but it is not the case. He has never been indicted for any misuse of funds.

He has never been indicted for any misuse of funds.

No, but he may be an excellent candidate for indictment for Crimes Against Humanity for his outreach in Uganda.

Claiming to be a Christian is the most common cover for criminals here in the US. Whether it is a catholic who attends confession and is given dispensation for his/her crimes or the evangelical who rationalizes his/her behavior by saying "not perfect just forgiven". Mega churches are built for mega egos like Warren. Such a waste of resources when there is so much need in the world.

Rick Warren Paid back his Salary for all the years leading up to the publishing of the Purpose Driven Life. Thats where that money went. Also to buy the church property outright.

I can't believe some of the lashing out here against someone most posters know nothing about. And the guy giving us a breakdown of ALL the money warren made from the book.... Do you know ANYTHING about the publishing business? where are you getting those numbers? They are not based on reality that's for sure.

I don't attend Saddleback regularly but I live in this community and I KNOW what this church does for the community.

Please, if you are not speaking from first hand knowledge or fact, please give it a rest

praetorian...

I agree with you. But we must always remember that there is an unseen force that generates much of the comments here. It is unreasonable... and any Christian activity is game.

Brad Melton asserts that Rick Warren ought to be indicted for crimes against humanity. I don't know what it is that he alludes to altogether, but I do know that Mr Warren helped to feed lots of Ugandans and their families. Maybe it has to do with the Ugandan debate about homosexuality... the one that Warren said he feels that the law they are considering is something that he doesn't believe should be adopted. Of course all of the writings that I have seen from Mr Melton are always Anti Christian... with bitterness and malice.

I say go Mr Warren. I applaud your efforts and for your sticking your neck out there to hold to the scriptures.

URQ

and I'm sure you money is wisely spent on alcohol and drugs. Did you even read the article about how the money is being spent? Hope you don't lose your job (if you even work) and need help. But, even with you attitude there will be some Christian organization that will lend a hand, even if you bite it.

I have yet to figure out what the difference is between a ordinary model and a supermodel other than the fact one has a PR rep and the other doesn't.

Now we have a "megachurch", I don't know if that means God has bestowed upon the Rev. Warren and his flock the title of being the Walmart of all churches or Mr. Warren wants us to think of himself as the superpastor of pastors. Isn't there something in the Bible that says not to worship false deities which this PR campaign certainly appears to be trying to do by calling it a miracle to have received so much money from just a letter.

What it proves to me is that we don't need big megachurches with bloated overhead costs to run. Apparently, all you need is a one room office and someone with the ability to write a letter stating that your mission is to raise money to help the needy on behalf of your community outreach efforts, which thousands of good hearted people donate their time and efforts to every day without seeking public glory for it like Mr. Warren.

If you choose to focus on the man who wrote the letter then I guess you may have a point. I choose to focus on the people who gave. that is not idol worship.

ANOTHER thing, many of these posts are confusing me... On the one hand we are fools who are easliy seperated form our money (I do mean WE beacuse I live in OC and ahve given money to saddleback, I have to wonder how many of the negative hateful posters here live in this county or really KNOW anything about this church)... On the other hand we are rich and should spend our money in some way other than giving to a church.

IF WE ARE SO STUPID, HOW DID WE GET SO MUCH MONEY TO GIVE????

HMMMMMM

Speakman...

Mr Warren did not call his church a "megachurch". That was bestowed upon him by the media. The fact that a huge amount of people choose to be a part of the Saddleback congregation must be because he has something to offer that is of importance to their lives. If 2.4 million dollars came in at a time of need it only shows that there are many who believe that his work and ministry are worth supporting.

Maybe a look at his overall outreach that goes far beyond just one community is in order. There are very few that have the ability to organise so many churches to help meet the needs of people the way that Mr Warren does. There are no indicators that he does it all for his own glory, as you have accused him of.

He has a gift... and he delivers it to others.... just the same as a pipe delivers water to your home.

. The fact that a huge amount of people choose to be a part of the Saddleback congregation must be because he has something to offer that is of importance to their lives.

many thought the same of benny hinn, jim and tammy baker, ted haggard, oral(god said i must collect 3 million dollars or he will call me home) roberts, jimmy swaggertand jim jones.

independant...

I don't see anyone twisting people arms for money here. It is voluntary... the church doors swing open to welcome you and swing out if you choose to leave.

I don't judge Rick Warren according to what any other minister does. He stands on his own merits. Bringing up Benny Hinn or Ted Haggard, or Oral Roberts has nothing to do with Rick Warren any more than that plumber who has a history of stealing has to do with the other plumber who has a history of getting the job done with integrity. Do you judge people this way?

Here is how the congregation grew.... Rich people love huge theme parks!

where,

you're the one that mentioned people fell what he has to offer is important to them. all i did was add other ministers that made people feel the same way.

how did i judge him? i simply brought up other examples. you are the one being judgemnetal, not me.

Independent...

Just judging your content. So you think all plumbers should be judged the same? You judged him by association. You're so clever.

you show me where i judged him in the posts on this thread. if you cannot then i suggest you stfu.

I am a Christian who donates a lot of my money and time towards those in need. If I am giving money I make sure I know who I am giving to and what they are going to do with it. Having researched many Christian organizations, I can assure you that most use their money wisely and charitably. To assume Rick Warren does anything else is asinine. As for his personal wealth, you haven't seen his tax returns and cant possibly know what he does with his money. Nor is it for YOU to decide. That's the problem in this country, people love to tell other people how they should spend their money. Get over it.

mish said,

That's the problem in this country, people love to tell other people how they should spend their money. Get over it.

kind of like abortion, huh? people trying to tell others how to live their life and what to do with their bodies, acting as if they are God themselves.

I see the fruit cakes are out in force, so people feel the need for a Church, good for them, those that make comments or fun of the donors are just jealous people and it show in the negative comments, I bet these people are Republicans, that's how Republicans are they only think about themselves, what a greedy bunch .....

I am a believer and believe me Warren will get his in the end.

Jesus, while he walked this earth, humbled himself and had nothing. He didn't even have a home and he didn't "beg" for money to those who came to hear him speak. Not one person in the early church talked about building mega churches and begging money to keep them up. Churches were in peoples homes. The apostle Paul who started many of the early churches said this: "Indeed, you have been concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do everything through Him who gives me strength." The early churches took care of their own people...most were simple people. They didn't have mega churches and no where in the Bible will you find "pastors" begging for money. They took their needs to God, not to people. The apostle Paul also said this, "Not that I am looking for a gift, but I am looking for what may be credited to your account. He was referring to what God would see about the person who "chose" to give. My guess if Jesus heard someone begging for 2.1 million for a mega church...He would say as he did to the "religious people of the time" they are nothing but white washed graves. In other words, they look good on the out side but were empty on the inside. All I can say is I'm glad I'm not living in Rick Warren's shoes....

URQ you are an idiot, churches do more for their communities than you can even imagine. What have you ever done for a homeless person lately? Moron....

You people know nothing of this Church or this man. I live in San Diego & my Church, Seven San Diego, take part in his seminares. We have helped with the efforts that his Church does for the community. I know first hand that he does not take this money for himself. in fact he has never took more than the same salary that he took when he first started this church. He still drives and old 1990's SUV & lives in the same small house that he had when he was first starting out. All that money he collects DOES go back into the community & his congregation. They also have missonarys in other countries all over the world helping women & children. How many of you support anything like that.

Don't judge someone when you know nothing about them. If you ever met him, you would be supprised just how he is like everyone of us. The difference is that HE really DOES CARE about his fellow man & puts his money where his mouth is & helps them. Read up about him & you will see that I am telling the truth.

He should now offer help to his out of work congregation. That would be the Christian thing to do, but......we all know he won't.

Not really - based on observation the christian thing to do would be to spend the money on personal frivolous luxuries and then ask for more. Time to call a spade a spade christian are what christians do....

Anna, I give a local homeless man who is clean and sober 20 bucks a week to help him, he always says god bless when I give him the coconuts, he never calls me a moron, and I never correct him that there no god or heaven. Perhaps you should reassess who the MORON is, IMHO that would be you. peace

Have any of you ever listened to; Dire Straits song; "Ticket to Heaven" off the, "On Every Street" Album ?? Check out on iTunes. The lyrics start out; " I send what I can to the man with the Diamond ring, he's a part of heaven's plan and he sure can sing."

This song is about people like Rick Warren and others who ask for those donations on TV, and live a Good life off of donations. I'm not saying all preaching on TV is bad, just some seem phony and only care about the money (donations). I personally like Joyce Myers and Joel Olsteen.

URQ you are an idiot, churches do more for their communities than you can even imagine. What have you ever done for a homeless person lately? Moron....

Not the churches the gullible church members do for closed door communities. look at the catholic example recently - the church has cited the need to end charities in Washington DC because the people of DC elected freely to support gay marriage. They elected to end charities that essentially cost them nothing to effect our politics and free elections. The soup kitchens that they are closing are run as "catholic charities" however the church does not spend a dime out of their coffers to run them. Special collections are taken up to cover the cost of rent at the facilities unless they already own the facilities. Volunteers who already tithed to the church donate the food and work to prepare it in their homes. They then volunteer their time to serve the food and clean up. Total cost to the tax free "catholic charities" - - - - $o.oo. Where did the money from their "special appeal collections" go???? Rome.

Have any of you ever listened to; Dire Straits song; "Ticket to Heaven" off the, "On Every Street" Album ?? Check out on iTunes. The lyrics start out; " I send what I can to the man with the Diamond ring, he's a part of heaven's plan and he sure can sing."

This song is about people like Rick Warren and others who ask for those donations on TV, and live a Good life off of donations. I'm not saying all preaching on TV is bad, just some seem phony and only care about the money (donations). I personally like Joyce Myers and Joel Olsteen.

Teri,

My personal favorite is Sting's "All this time" from "The Soul Cages."

"Teachers told us - The Romans built this place. They built a wall and a temple at the edge of the empire at Garrison town. They lived and they died - they prayed to their gods but the stone gods did not make a sound and their empire crumbled till all that was left were the stones the work men found."

All this time later we find our selves wrapped in constant debate with people who pray to stone gods in Ivory temples and constantly tout the miracles and power behind their prayers to their particular brand of "god" - people who wish for an apocalypse in their lifetime - the end of the world on "their watch." It never ceases to amaze me that we just cant evolve past the "god sell" - their will always be a buyer for eternal life.

Jesus, while he walked this earth, humbled himself and had nothing. He didn't even have a home and he didn't "beg" for money to those who came to hear him speak.

Jesus never walked the earth. He is a mythological figure, a "sun god" to be more exact. His story was based upon even more ancient mythological figures like Horus, Mithra, Krishna, Dionysus, Attis, etc. The stories of these characters are based upon the the movement of the sun and stars in the sky.

By compounding these older beliefs, it made it easier to convert people to Christianity, as the people were already familiar with the ideas, it made them more comfortable with them. This is the same reason we now have Easter, Christmas and Halloween. It was easier to convert the Pagans if they adopted some of their holidays. You don't see mention of any of these holidays in the bible because they are originally Pagan holidays, not Christian ones. For the people that didn't convert, they killed.

Although these churches do some good, they are doing it to convert people and push their beliefs on them. They do not have benign intentions. They empower, and make up the backbone of the radicals the same way the moderate Muslims empower their own radicals. They foster ignorance and deception, and this is evident in the tens of thousands of child abuse and molestation cases that they have brought about.

Lawdy lawdy, being a @!$%# must make you feel great doesn't it?

Dunno. Depends what a "@!$%#" is. But yes, I feel great as a general rule, thanks for your concern.

Now be a good little boy and go write a check to Saddleback Church. If it's big enough, Rick will guarantee your name is etched on one of the gold bricks lining heaven's roads.

au stinK,

Oh stop with the hysterics. You don't give a damn about helping anyone, you just want to rant.

Lawdy lawdy, being a @!$%# must make you feel great doesn't it?

i guess being a good little bible thumper makes it ok for you to call people names?

What a inane comment....filled with "probably". Geesh... you embarrass yourself.

Twice is "filled". I see. By the way it's "an inane comment", if you're interested in dissecting grammar on an internet message board. I see you blushing.

Didn't get your etched gold brick yet? Pray harder.

Didn't get your etched gold brick yet? Pray harder.

and pay a lot more. A LOT MORE.

austin k-- No, but sure feels GREAT knowing you're a @!$%#! "Christians" THE problem!

So true :)

So who or what is your ticket to Heaven?

Jesus, NOT RICK WARREN, I remember reading in the bible Jesus took a whip and ran the money changers out of the Temple. Somebody should do the same to RW.i really don't remember ANYWHERE in the Bible Jesus asking for Money, Just don't ask Rick Warren for ANYTHING,he NEEDS the money to bad,How big is his house, How big is benn hinns house. Guess their mansions is here on earth, More Known, More required

Do you know how big Rick's house is? Have you seen it? I would hope someone speaking with such venom and authority would have facts....

Yes, their is no writing that says that Jesus asked for money. He did however have someone who had the money pouch so I assume that there was money that was coming in.

The assumption that Mr Warren lives lavishly is just that... an assumpion. I think a real assesment should be made by the amount of people who are being helped and fed worldwide ...which are innumerable. That Mr Warren and his family live comfortably is not any kind of sin... so who casts the first stone? And how could he continue to help others without the financial aid? As I recollect Jesus did not live lavishly... he chose not to ... and we killed him anyways.

I would wager that a check of the financial books at Saddleback Church would show that everything is in order.

your assumption that warren does not live lavishly is just that, an assumption.

It is unless you know the man.... I live a couple miles from his church, have seen his house and seen what he drives.... So much for assumption

and you are credible how?

OK, question my integrity because you didn't get the answer you hoped for. Isn't that really the way things should be done?? NEVER EVER admit you may be wrong. attack anyone who disagrees.

I guess I am no more credible than you. But I haven't attacked anyone have I? Can you say the same?

Have you questioned the credibility of those who have attacked this man? Or does agreeing with you meet the high standard of credibility?

all i asked was how are you credible? don't get all butt hurt just because somebody questions you. anybody can sit in front of their computer and say anything. doesn't make it true.

where did i attack anyone?

Do you apply that logic to everyone? Or just those who disagree with and / or question you?

"butt hurt"? My kid says that sometimes and I just don't get what it means...

so sorry my logic derails your argument. better luck next time.

independent...

He gave what credibility he could by saying he has "been there and seen that!"

All of us are sitting here in an anonymous way... concealing ourselves... making comments. That's the way of the vine.

What makes people more credible are their words here, and what axe they grind. You can see by many words just what angle people are coming from. Hopefully, some meaningful words, rather than flippant statements that assassinate someones character, can break through.

no, he wants everybody to believe what he says as truth, with no proof whatsoever. everybody can say "been there and seen that." it doesn't mean that it is true.

i can say i know warren personally and that he's a lazy slouch who treats his staff like crap, lives like a billionaire, and makes fun of the plebes who donate to his bogus church. doesn't make it true.

Thanks Where... Unfortunately, some people don't seem to want to have answers, just to attack without accountibility. Too bad really.

I have tended to be very skeptical about this Rick Warren. Just because so very many of the leaders of these mega-churches have gone down in a big way. Also, I have great concerns about this Uganda thing. Because he is now speaking against it doesn't necessarily give me warm and fuzzy feelings that he has not been involved in it. I truly hope he is different and is really doing good work with all of the money he takes in. But, just that he is part of the The Family brings huge questions about what his goals really are. If he is helping people, I'm glad, but I really wonder if that is all he is up to.

praetorian - I don't doubt that you are sincere and have seen him first hand. But do you really know what he is up to when he isn't standing in front of you preaching?

PS independent. I am defending a mans character, you are looking to assassinate it. Which one of us should be held to a higher standard of credibility. What DO I have to gain by defending Rick warren? Espcially if I have never met the man (as u seem to be asserting)?

YOUR LOGIC? there is no logic.

praet,

Unfortunately, some people don't seem to want to have answers

you haven't given answers. you've given OPINIONS. the two are quite different.

how have i tried to assasinate his character?come on, give specific detailed examples,if you can. if not, stfu.

Belinda, I have tried to keep on topic here. I know where the book money went, I know he doesn't recieve a salary. As for what he is really up to on Uganda, I don't know any better than you do. But I am not pretending to either.

I just think the habit of attacking people wholesale without accountibility or basis in fact is a very dangerous thing to do and is a very slippery slope.

STFU? that's mature. I'm finished with you. This has gotten too childish for me.

Be well.

Independent...

Let's just be frank here. You just want to play "fox tails in the socks".

You could care less about who you demean by your statements. There's no price for you to pay... with the exception of others that may just by-pass your posts in the future. They may by-pass mine also. So be it.

P.S. Don't be so angry

praet,

ok, your defeat has been recorded. thanks for playing.

Independent, You know how these people are "Believe the way I do or you are wrong". They are all hypocrites!

independentbychoice

People always say things when they feel others have shown them up for what they truly are, Cheap and Greedy ... Typical Republicans .......LOL LOL

but if we did that, these high flying preachers would have to drastically cut back on their lavish lifestyle.

oh, my! tis true, tis true! times are a changing, and it's time something was done!

Without getting into the theology with the fairly large atheist contingent that this story seems to have driven wild.

Churches do provide a social service to their communities - filling in the gaps where the state doesn't. They provide food and even money - yes, to help that lady with her electric bill, as someone chortled above - during hard times.

Yeah, some people have abused the system (notable televangelists), and yes - throughout history people who have been "church people" have screwed up.

So you tax it - what's going to happen to it? With government "efficiency" the amount of actual "to the people" potential will drop off. I think it has already been proven that California can't manage money.

tuxkevin
Without getting into the theology with the fairly large atheist contingent that this story seems to have driven wild.

One does not have to be an atheist to criticize the shameless hypocrisy and perverse sense of priorities most organized churches display. While churches may provide some services to their communities, in this particular case, the church is providing Rev. Warren with quite a standard of living. Martin Luther may have tacked a number of complaints on the door to his local church in 1517, sparking the Protestant Reformation. His focus, however, was the opulence and ostentatiousness of the Catholic Church. His complaints are as valid today as they were nearly 500 years ago.

Yes it would be a shame if the preacher had to get a real job, another reason to be confused about religion, and the religious.

Brad Melton

there you go organized religion is the problem.

Brad - you are correct.

The Ninety-Five Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences were written by Martin Luther against what he considered clerical abuses, especially in regard to indulgences.

Obviously those mega-church preachers don't remember or choose to ignore the history of some religious beliefs.

The churches do something for people. When i listen to gods word. I feel good. Gave money to my church. Not much but some. The government spends money like mad. We spent hundreds of billions on the poor to help them. Guess what it did not work.

You know, bibol, I enjoy listening to Gods word too. It does make one feel good and loved. But nowhere did I hear God ask for money for the church!!!!!!!!!! Especially not 2.4 million!

LS,

Take a closer look at the scriptures... God doesn't ask for anything... but everything!

2.4 million dollars is not really that much in this day and age. Almost chump change. And it is not money for himself that he is asking for. He is asking for assistance to keep a ministry to others going. Kind of like the local church that has 100 people attending... but on a more massive scale. Do you criticize your church for passing around the collection box?

The word of God makes one feel good and loved ... yes. But a close look shows that it also challenges us to become actively involved in helping others and spreading the gospel. I would say that those who do not heed that calling have a hard time feeling good and loved.

2.4 million dollars is not really that much in this day and age. Almost chump change.

It's not much if you're an Liberal. Compared to the Billions that Obama Spends.

The word of God makes one feel good and loved ... yes.

Kind of a broad based statement... For whom do you presume to speak - everyone or yourself?

we don't pass an offering plate. It sits by the door and it's your choice to give or not.

yes most wars are religious based from the crusades on down to modern times

IE: the Muslims have many different ideologues and have been at war for thousands of years over their differences, ongoing today.

somebody offered me Rick Warrens book,I looked at them wih Horrow, I don't want anything this person has. I think ANY BUSINESS conducted by the church should be taxed, Let RW show what some of the money he pulls in goes to (other than his pocket) or bank account.

The problem with taxing churches is that it wouldn't only affect a church like Saddleback, which could easily afford it. It would also affect small churches that don't have a lot of money and that are using what money they have for food banks, clothing drives, etc. that are really HELPING people. It would be nice if the law could be set up so that if you have over X number of parishoners, you would be taxed, but that's not how it works. Any tax would have to apply to ALL churches.

As I stated above. The proceeds form the book paid off the church property AND repaid RW's ENTIRE SALARY for the years leading up to the book... This is fact...

I have no real allegiance to this church even though I have attended a handful of times but RIGHT is RIGHT and FACTS are FACTS... I cannot believe the lashing out with no basis in fact.

I've never been to this church; heck I don't even know who Rick Warren is (I guess he's something of a celebrity from the sounds of it) but I have been to churches such as his. They are money pits that demand money "donations" to grease the pathway to heaven. Well, I'm just not going for it! God doesn't need my money to offer me a pathway to heaven! He's happy with my 2.98 I currently have in the bank! And preachers such as this....well, (heavy sigh and shaking head) I just don't even know what to say. I guess if they are savvy enough to con people into giving up 2.4 million dollars, well, then so be it. You cannot convince me that he's not making a fortune off of this church. I'm sure he's living grandly!

I much prefer the smaller parishes that struggle where the ministers actually preach the words of God. Not what they wished God had said. And money is NEVER mentioned!!!

How would you possibly presume to know how much money Warren gives his church?? Man you hate mongers sure love to spread rumor about others don't you??

mish22
How would you possibly presume to know how much money Warren gives his church?? Man you hate mongers sure love to spread rumor about others don't you??

Kind of like what's been going on in Uganda lately, huh?

Mish; LS is only saying what many others feel. It is not hate but a great sense of unfairness to those of us that believe in the separation of church and state that is projected. The 1st amendment never says that churches should not be taxed, it in fact states that there will be no recognition of any religion by the government. Since the government does not tax churches, it is therefore being recognized by the state by it's omission on the tax rolls.

Also, although I looked for some time on the 'net, I could not find an image of Rick Warren's home, or any disclosure of financials. Again, omissions. True, religious organizations do not have to disclose, but some do to show they are on the up and up. And anyone that can ask for a $million and receive twice that in 48 hours really should disclose, or risk culpability.

The need for greed

Jane, the preacher needs a new Mercedes, and his yacht payment is due.

Only one more thing to say, the crook didn't get any of my money!

I'm sure they ARE helping the poor and hungry. At our church, not a mega church and in the mid-west, our church budget includes working missions and supporting a food pantry. Where we used to support approx 40 families a month we now help almost 100. Due to the ecomony donations are down, need is up. Therefore it costs more to operate the food pantry. Our church also asked for end of the year donations due to a shortfall. I have the benefit of seeing first hand the impact the pantry has on our community as I volunteer there one a week. On our missions were send out work teams to repair weather damage to trailer homes and low income areas free of charge. These costs are covered 100% by our church and persons going on the mission.

Yes, religion has caused many problems but it has also done much good in helping our neighbors. I personally am thankful for the opportunity to help and the ability to experience first hand the difference people can make when they work together.

Most churches have a mission budget of some type. These "mega" churches tend to have "smaller" budgets though. I wonder why that is??? (sarcasm intended)

nomore-889116

So let's look at this, the church took in over 2 million in cash and they reported it that's interesting, and this preacher is going to take the money to buy a new Mercedes, you really should change your name to NOMOREBRAIN ........ LOL

You do seem to be smart enough to recognize sarcasm there richie, so I will spell it out for you, I was being s-a-r-c-a-s-t-i-c! And how much did you donate to the cause richie, did you tithe your 10%?

We are already a donor county in every way. JUST because YOU don't like what we do with OUR money we should give it to YOU??? Are you serious?

Did you even read that post before you hit "post comment"

Well, you are lining someones pockets when you vote democrat, and it certainly isnt yours, unless of course you are on welfare or food stamps!

People here are laughable, you all give new meeaning to MORON ...

I looked up moron in the dictionary, the definition; richie416314

O there have been SIGNS most of them posted in front of Churches.

sign from God, how about global warming!!!

Being a multi-millionaire, it is easy for Rick to give 90% of his profits from his book. I'm guessing based on the percentages that the 10% he keeps is far more than most people earn...notice they give a percentage of what he keeps and not a dollar amount.

Continueem

Warren has said that he's donated most of the profits from his book back to the church, or some of their efforts.

Warren has SAID a lot of things, most of which are probably not true, so...

...and you base that accusation on what facts? Just your own hatred for the man?

That conclusion can be based on the fact that he's an American evangelical.

"and Jesus said give up all your worldly goods and come follow me"

he did not say "give me all your worldly goods"

SOURCES? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING SOURCES!!! Just "witty" misdirected hatred and venom. Don't you know man, opinion X volume + hate = valid point???

Most of these posters wouldn't know Rick Warren if he sat next to them on the bus. It is just fashionable these days to attack the right.

This willingness to cast aspersions on a wholesale level without basis in fact is a FAR bigger problem in America than people giving money to a church.

This willingness to cast aspersions on a wholesale level without basis in fact is a FAR bigger problem in America than people giving money to a church.

How does it feel to get a taste of your own medicine? Now you know what I've lived with every day of my life for more than half a century. While I wish no real ill will on anyone from the Right I hope it scares the piss out of them so that they finally learn how to play with other kids.

My own medicine??? I am confused. Your post would assume that I have engaged in condemning people I don't know...But you don't know me or that I have done that... But you assume that I have. Does that make sense to you?

Even if you were right your post would allude to 2 wrongs making a right. Is that how we need to go about making our country great again? Playing payback? I respectfully disagree.

One last thing. If you look at ALL my posts you will see that I haven't attacked anyone, haven't called any names mostly asked questions. I WISH all I got was my own medicine.

You want to remain in a state of denial about your pastor, you are free to do so. I thought two summers ago I was coming home after retirement from the Army to care for two aging parents and live out my life in peace. I am so angry about this man's "work" in Uganda I cannot see straight. Just as two of the three other evangelicals who were at that now famous workshop in Kampala denied any complicity in this when I contacted them personally, so too, Rev. Warren. Who after all wants to be known for involvement with murder? He needs to get on his damn knees and beg forgiveness and worry about Heaven instead of raking in millions of dollars.

What do you think he was doing in Africa; nurturing democratic institutions?

He's not my pastor. I actually attend a different church down the road but I have met him and attended his church a handful of times. As I said in another post, I don't have to agree to appreciate the validity of your opinion. At least you have basis that are important to you. More than I can say for most people on both sides of most discussions.

Do you know what he did with the money? Maybe regular people should do research before getting upset. If this was a discussion based on race rather than religion, I wonder how many would be "enlightened" enough to make wild accusations that are not based on fact?

Why is it "enlightened" to spread wholesale venom and hatred based on religion?

You keep asking all these questions, praetorian.....do YOU know the answers? Please enlighten us with some of the FACTS you keep capitalizing.

I have.

FACT- Rick Warren gave all the proceeds from his book to repay the church for all the salary he ever recieved.

FACT- He recieves no salary now.

Fact- He also used the proceeds from his book to purchase the church property outright.

Fact- His house is not the lavish palace some here assume it is.

I see nothing wrong with asking people to back up their hate filled comments. Accountability and credibility need to be valued a little more in our society instead of people just feeling the need to lash out with no basis in fact.

It seems like it would be a good tax move to donate your millions to be a church property, which is therefore not taxed. It also seems like it would be very tax-savvy to donate more of those millions to your "back salary", and receive no further salary; this means it would still be yours to do with what you want (through the church that you are the head of), or what would make you look good, and still not to pay tax on it.

No hate; just sayin'... Rev. Warren needs to be accountable and credible too.

I am going to take a moment to read this, thank you.

The columnist for USA Today shows a bias in her article, and I can understand the agitation. Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. I loved in SoCal for many years, and now live in Reno. Lost a wife to cancer, and my faith has changed from that experience, not from bad messengers for God. I entered this discussion because I wanted to "feel the pulse" of my former home. I wish you all the best.

In the above linked article:

On the last weekend of 2009, our total offerings were less than half of what we normally receive - leaving us $900,000 in the red for the year

So... over $1.8 million in offerings a week? Wonder what the "operating budget" is for his so-called church? Wonder what his weekly salary actually is. And who pays for the private jet travel? Non-profit my a$$.

Wonder what the "operating budget" is for his so-called church?

At $1.8 million a week times 52 weeks, it would have to be somewhere around $94 million a year; a perverse figure considering it's a church. Wonder how much of that actually goes toward helping the poor?

In the immortal words of P.T. Barnum, "There is a sucker born every minute."

P.T. Barnum was a modest man should have been"there are thousand's of suckers born every minute"

But this would be hard for some of you to believe

Would it be hard to believe that some among the evanglical community may be behind proposed genocide in Uganda?

Only for people who find it difficult to believe in FACTS, Brad. Maybe you need to give those reading this more information about Warren's activities in Uganda, so they can see how ugly he really is.

I would like to see your facts as well Brad....

For a good read on the Nazi like activities, in Uganda, this pastor of the Lord is involved in..

http://www.progressivepuppy.com/the_progressive_puppy/2009/01/rick-warrens-pastor-pal-in-uganda-arrest-all-homos.html

praetorian-1053839
I would like to see your facts as well Brad....

About three years ago, a reporter at Fortune asked Rick Warren, the successful pastor whom the President-elect has asked to pray at his Inauguration, about homosexuality. "I'm no homophobic guy," Warren said. His proof? He has dined with gays; he has a church "full of people who are caring for gays who are dying of AIDS"; he believes that "in the hierarchy of evil ... homosexuality is not the worst sin." So gays get to eat — sometimes even with Rick Warren! Then they get to die of AIDS — possibly under the care of Rick Warren's congregants. And when they go to hell, they won't be quite as far down in Satan's pit as other evildoers.

But Warren did have a message for gays; they could magically become hetersexuals...

http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1867664,00.html

Here is a man who has compared being gay with incest and pedophilia. He goes to Uganda to help that country in its boycott of the Anglican Church because the Anglican Church is too pro-gay. He says Uganda is a purpose driven nation. Within a short time after his departure, the Ugandan Legislature announces its bill. You be the judge; I say let's err on the side of being conservative and place the allegations within the context of what else the man has had to say on the matter.

I appreciate the effort but, an Op-ED piece isn't really fact. You must agree that the article isn't lacking in slant.

I offer enough "facts" throughout the blog that Rev. Warren isn't the angel some would care to believe. His activities in Uganda undermining science-based protocols to prevent the spread of HIV/AIDs are renowned, replacing those protocols with purpose driven measures. So too his deep kinshap with some both in and outside the government - and the Ugandan evangelical community - that foments the hatred that has led to this legislative agenda. Sorry Praetorian, but it has the fingerprints of Americans all over it.

I don't have to agree to appreciate your opinion. I will say I appreciate that you do have some basis in what you believe. More than can be said for many people on both sides of most arguments these days.

I will say that whatever the outcome, I think I know enough about RW to believe he has good intentions (but we know what they say about those don't we?)

I do not hate religion. I still wear the Christian Cross around my neck as I did when I was a child and underneath all this anger, there is something else - deep hurt that even, however remotely possible, a man or woman of the cloth could be involved in something like this. Good day.

Milton,

Here is the truth about the Uganda issues that you have stated as fact. This is straight from www.rickwarren.com . It is a video & a letter that he sent the pastors of Uganda. If you are going to give some info, give them the whole story. Any one can take a good thing & take too far, that it becomes a bad thing.

Dear fellow pastors in Uganda,

I greet you in the name and love of Jesus Christ as I send this encyclical video to the pastors of the churches of Uganda with greetings from your fellow pastors around the world. May grace and peace be with you this Christmas season.

We are all familiar with Edmund Burke's insight that, "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." That is why I'm sharing my heart with you today. As an American pastor, it is not my role to interfere with the politics of other nations, but it IS my role to speak out on moral issues. It is my role to shepherd other pastors who look to me for guidance, and it is my role to correct lies, errors, and false reports when others associate my name with a law that I had nothing to do with, completely oppose, and vigorously condemn. I am referring to the pending law under consideration by the Ugandan Parliament, known as the Anti-Homosexuality Bill.

As a pastor, I've found the most effective way to build consensus for social change is usually through direct quiet diplomacy and behind the scenes dialogue, rather than through media. But because I didn't rush to make a public statement, some erroneously concluded that I supported this terrible bill, and some even claimed I was a sponsor of the bill. You in Uganda know that is untrue.

I am releasing this video to you and your congregations to correct these untruths and to urge you to make a positive difference at this critical point in your nation.

While we can never deny or water down what God's Word clearly teaches about sexuality, at the same time the church must stand to protect the dignity of all individuals -- as Jesus did and commanded all of us to do.

Let me be clear that God's Word states that all sex outside of marriage is not what God intends. Jesus reaffirmed what Moses wrote that marriage is intended to be between one man and one woman committed to each other for life. Jesus also taught us that the greatest commandment is to love our neighbors as ourselves. Since God created all, and Jesus suffered and died for all, then we are to treat all with respect. The Great Commandment has been the centerpiece of my life and ministry for over 35 years.

Of course, there are thousands of evil laws enacted around the world and I cannot speak to pastors about every one of them, but I am taking the extraordinary step of speaking to you -- the pastors of Uganda and spiritual leaders of your nation -- for five reasons:

First, the potential law is unjust, extreme and un-Christian toward homosexuals, requiring the death penalty in some cases. If I am reading the proposed bill correctly, this law would also imprison anyone convicted of homosexual practice.

Second, the law would force pastors to report their pastoral conversations with homosexuals to authorities.

Third, it would have a chilling effect on your ministry to the hurting. As you know, in Africa, it is the churches that are bearing the primary burden of providing care for people infected with HIV/AIDS. If this bill passed, homosexuals who are HIV positive will be reluctant to seek or receive care, comfort and compassion from our churches out of fear of being reported. You and I know that the churches of Uganda are the truly caring communities where people receive hope and help, not condemnation.

Fourth, ALL life, no matter how humble or broken, whether unborn or dying, is precious to God. My wife Kay and I have devoted our lives and our ministry to saving the lives of people, including homosexuals, who are HIV positive. It would be inconsistent to save some lives and wish death on others. We're not just pro-life. We are whole life.

Finally, the freedom to make moral choices, and our right to free expression are gifts endowed by God. Uganda is a democratic country with a remarkable and wise people, and in a democracy everyone has a right to speak up. For these reasons, I urge you, the pastors of Uganda, to speak out against the proposed law.

My role, and the role of the PEACE Plan, whether in Uganda or any other country, is always pastoral, not political. I vigorously oppose anything that hinders the goals of the PEACE Plan: Promoting reconciliation, Equipping ethical leaders, Assisting the poor, Caring for the sick, and Educating the next generation, which includes the protection of children.

Please know that you and the people of Uganda are in my constant prayers. This Christmas season I pray you will experience the three purposes of Christmas as announced by the angel at the birth of Christ. First, the angel said, "I bring you good news of great joy." Christmas is a time of celebration -- Jesus is the Good News for the whole world. God came to earth to be with us! Next, the angel said, "For unto us is born this day a Savior, who is Christ the Lord!" Christmas is a time for salvation. If we didn't need a Savior, God would not have sent one. Finally, the angel said, "Peace on earth, good will toward men." Christmas is a time for reconciliation. The message of Christmas is good cheer, good news, and good will for the whole world.

It is my prayer that the churches and people of Uganda will experience all three of these this season. May God bless you; and may God bless the nation of Uganda.

Christmas 2009

Key Facts Concerning Recent Media
and Blog Reports on Rick Warren’s
Position on Uganda

1. Do you support the death penalty for homosexuals?
   Absolutely not. ALL life, no matter how humble or broken, whether unborn or dying, is precious to God. My wife, Kay, and I have devoted our lives and our ministry to saving the lives of people, including homosexuals, who are HIV positive. It would be inconsistent to save some lives and wish death on others. We’re not just pro-life. We are whole life.
2. Do you support life imprisonment for homosexuality?
   Of course not. I oppose the criminalization of homosexuality. The freedom to make moral choices is endowed by God. Since God gives us that freedom, we must protect it for all, even when we disagree with their choices.
3. Are you a friend of the President of Uganda? No.
   I’ve never met him, and never had any kind of communications with him, or with any member of the Ugandan Parliament.
4. Did the President of Uganda say he wanted his country to be Purpose Driven?
   No, he didn’t. That was said by the President of RWANDA, not Uganda, at a national rally in Rwanda in 2005. Years later, the Anglican Archbishop of Uganda made a similar comment so people are confusing Uganda with Rwanda, the country next to Uganda. While we have just begun to train pastors in Uganda, we are very involved in Rwanda, creating a nationwide P.E.A.C.E. plan at the invitation of the churches there. Over 1,000 Saddleback members have served on humanitarian projects in Rwanda.
5. What did you do when you heard about the proposed Ugandan law?
   I wrote to the most influential leader I knew in that country, the Anglican Archbishop of Uganda, and shared my opposition and concern. He wrote me back, saying that he, too, was opposed to the death penalty for homosexuals. There are thousands of evil laws enacted around the world that kill people (For instance, last year, 146,000 Christians around the world were killed because of their faith). In this case, I knew the Archbishop in Uganda, so I did what I could, but my influence in that nation has been greatly exaggerated by the media.
6. Is Ugandan Pastor Martin Ssempa an associate who represents you?
   Not at all. At each of our Global Summits on AIDS (on World AIDS Day) we’ve invited speakers from a wide spectrum of religions, beliefs, political views, and health care expertise. We’ve had believers and atheists, liberals and conservatives, gays and straights. Ssempa was just one of over 200 speakers we’ve invited. At each Summit we make it clear that no speaker represents us, and that we don’t control, endorse, or agree with all that is said. Our desire is to encourage everyone to work together in ending AIDS and caring for those infected and affected. Ssempa was one of many speakers in 2005 and 2006. In 2007, when we learned that Ssempa’s beliefs and actions were vastly different than ours, we disassociated ourselves from him.
7. Did you say that homosexuality is not a human right?
   Absolutely not. What I said in an interview in Uganda was that there is no civil right to gay marriage guaranteed by the United States Constitution. All Americans, and I believe all people, are “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights,” as spoken by the United States Declaration of Independence.
8. Do you know Scott Lively?
   No. I do not know Scott Lively and have had no contact with him regarding Uganda or any other issue. I would certainly not associate with anyone who denies the Holocaust, one of the greatest tragedies in human history.
9. Are you and Peter Wagner attempting to rid the world of homosexuals?
   Absolutely not. Peter Wagner was a seminary professor of mine, but not my doctoral dissertation advisor. I have not had contact with Peter Wagner for many years and am certainly not conspiring with him for any purpose. Additionally, the event chronicled at Angels Stadium in 2005 has been grossly misrepresented. I was simply arguing that Christians could have a tremendous effect for good in the world if they had the same dedication as the followers of Mao. I would never argue that anyone should emulate or espouse the views of Mao, Hitler or Lenin.

Pastor Warren, after weeks of avoiding the issue, finally publicly condemned the Ugandan law that makes it legal to give people the death penalty just for being gay. You can watch his video here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/10/rick-warren-publicly-cond_n_387512.html

The obligatory distancing and denunciations after the fact regarding this law are a little late. One must ask exactly what these people were doing over there, these American citizens, particularly Rev. Warren? Were they fostering democratic institutions? Or were they secretly acquiesing to potentially violent factions within Ugandan society; pushing Western style intolerance wrapped in the cloak of Christ?

This country is little farther advanced than the stage of tribal society. After enduring a decade of the brutal dictator Idi Amin, it has almost nothing along the lines of the rule of law or democratic processes to protect itself from itself. If not involved in this legislation outright, one must ask if Rev. Warren et al were not providing fertile soil in which this evil seed could sprout and grow.

Rev. Warren and many of his conservative and evangelical friends (not all) have issued the obligatory statements encouraging defeat of the bill; as well, denying their involvement with writing it. It may well be too late and they may well get their social experiment; a Western-styled theocracy in a Central African nation that has barely advanced out of the jungle; an experiment that some of us have thought for decades the Religious Right would love to try in this country.

Americans pushing a moral and social ideology overseas that promises to cause chaos, mayhem and suffering under the aegis of stopping the spread of AID’s is reprehensible. Addressing social problems has many venues; so too the problems presented with a communicable disease. The death penalty isn't one of them.

Evil takes many forms. It doesn't always walk along the darkened streets and back alleys of our major cities. Sometimes, it preaches from the pulpits of our largest churches and walks the hallways of the upper reaches of our government; making important decisions that impact on all our lives.

Evil is the Darkness, that is always trying to put out the Light. Unless you know him personaly or you live in his head, YOU can't tell everyone that he was behind that. It is just YOUR opinion. God has put US ALL on this earth to do good for others. Not all of us do that. All that we can ever do is be the best sinners that we can be. For we are all the same in Gods eyes, Sinners and he loves us all. Every last one of us. Some times Evil people want to make the light of God look like evil to decieve the people looking for the light. Remmeber that too.

But the True God will send people to hell if they do not accept His son, Jesus, who died to pay a debt we can not, and a debt He did not owe. And stop mocking Jesus. Warren is way out there as many others, very few true Chrisitans, another sign that the end of the age is at hand, Jesus is coming soon, scoffers, mockers and unbelieves can't change that fact....

NacioS
But the True God will send people to hell if they do not accept His son, Jesus

Can you accept Jesus and still promote mass murder in Uganda?

....Wondering if if G.H. will get a response....

Don't authors get rather large amounts of money to write a book? Usually based on projected sales?? That's what I've always heard. So let's just say he got millions for that. It's fairly reasonable that he would be able to give that 90% of his sales "back" to the church! How noble!

he sold the same bill of goods to the weak minded.

You know, Atheists are always talking about hatred and bigotry coming from chucrchgoers. I see nothing but seething hatred and bigotry coming from those on this board. You have declared any Christian weak minded, and/or stupid, you have placed yourselves as enlightened, better than everyone else.

Good to see hypocrisy is as healthy out of the church as it is within it.

Until the church begins doing what it's designed to do, any contempt shown for it is justly deserved. Rev. Warren is a bigot who obviously believes hate and intolerance are Family Values.

Gouranga. how dare you call people who you do not know Atheists there are a lot of us who believe in god that do not hold with organized religion.

and just because you attend church it does not make you a Christian!!

I am sick and tired of people telling me "I am a Christian" and just why do they have to announce that fact ? can anyone explain that to me?

if you are truly a Christian the the only person that needs to know that fact is God him self.

Gouranga,'You have declared any Christian weak minded, and/or stupid, you have placed yourselves as enlightened, better than everyone else.'

But it's true........why lie???

jlang-342776

After eading several of your posts here your unmerrited hatred for those in the "Church" is skewing you ability to reason. You even tried to quote Jesus and should really read the book of Acts before you try and make a biblical point about church giving.

After eading several of your posts here your unmerrited hatred for those in the "Church" is skewing you ability to reason. You even tried to quote Jesus and should really read the book of Acts before you try and make a biblical point about church giving.

Wow, how embarrassing. After reading several of your posts here, your unmerited hatred for those not in the "church" is skewing your ability to communicate, much less reason.

Better go pray about that.

These people who have a hatred for religion and attack it are called neo-atheists. Check out the definition in conservapedia...

google Uganda Rick Warren death penalty gays and see what you get.

Why would I check out ANYTHING on conservapedia??

"Religion, is the opiate of the people". K.M.

What is the alternative opiate, drugs, alcohol and critiscism? T.S.

Truth works wonders for the Soul but far from providing a diversion and while its end product is enlightenment, it does entail a degree of pain.

Brad: You spew from your head, I write from my heart!