The article is wrong to suggest that the defense filed a motion attempting to raise this defense. This hearing today on the "necessity defense" was on a motion in limine filed by the state. The state was asking the court to pre-empt any attempt by the defense to argue necessity.

The defense is keeping their strategy secret because they have none. Walking into a church and gunning somebody down is indefensible.

But the children that this evil doctor killed were human beings.they all had human DNA and were growing so there forth they were living because they would not be growing if they were not living, this makes the fetus(unborn babies) living human beings,no matter what some unthinking supreme court said killing babies should not be legal,it should be called what it is murder in the first degree this doctor murdered hundreds of babies.

Yeesh - form a thought before you type.

Abortion isn't murder; it's all very simple. WOW.

"necessity defense?" from who? his life wasn't in danger.

Amron. What do you call those hard brown things that fall out of trees. You know, they dent cars and squirrels like to eat them? What are those?

Anyone who tries to use the "necessity defense," or anyone who buys into the defense, is an idiot.

But the children that this evil doctor killed were human beings.they all had human DNA and were growing so there forth they were living because they would not be growing if they were not living, this makes the fetus(unborn babies) living human beings,no matter what some unthinking supreme court said killing babies should not be legal,it should be called what it is murder in the first degree this doctor murdered hundreds of babies.

Fetuses aren't people, they're not babies. Just because it has human DNA, doesn't mean it is human. Chimpanzees and humans share DNA, that doesn't mean they're the same animal. Plants grow yet they're alive, should it be wrong to cut them up and eat them?

The man that killed the doctor only killed one human being.

Your post is contradicting amron. You're basically saying that Roeder should have gotten off with a slap on the wrist for killing Tiller but that Tiller should be charged with "first degree murder" for helping women. You need to do some research on Law and Order, including the definition on the act of "murder." You clearly have no idea of what you're talking about.

I think what you call "murder" is just really a "post delivery" abortion. What difference does 40+ years of life outside the womb make? Are going to quibble about the value of life? If so, how many other doctors have been "murdered" pre-birth?

Either way, I knew that one wouldn't work. Ever

to Bajee,I guess you are talking about nuts?That is what seems to be writing these stupid remarks today ,so I will say goodbye to all of you heathens for now.This seems to be the day for idiots and nuts.I will not be reading any more of your unthinking remarks.

What difference does 40+ years of life outside the womb make? Are going to quibble about the value of life? If so, how many other doctors have been "murdered" pre-birth?

How does that even make any sense?

Well thats not really the point I had. I was going for the answer "acorns" so I could point out that you would be a damn idiot to call an acorn an oak tree.

The "necessity defense" would mean that we could kill hedge fund managers, stock brokers, and various CEO's, with impunity, because their actions literally lead to the death of 10,000's of Americans.

Oh where o where is my buddy who called me a know it all.

As the first post said, this was an easy one to figure out.

NO. It's not a defense in this situation, particularly since abortion is legal.

Don the difference is 40 years of consciousness. Without conscious thought there is no soul. Do you remember your time in the womb? Do you remember your 10th birthday? See the difference. You have every right to live your life as your religion dictates. You have no right to impose that belief on anyone else.

I have a question for the "pro-lifers."

Why is it that you feel that your views and opinions should be shared by people who do not feel the same way.

DO NOT TELL ME that it is God's will.

I am asking YOU as a PERSON WHY YOU think YOU can tell me, or any woman, what to do?

This seems to be the day for idiots and nuts.

Yeah, so Happy Idiot and Nut Day to you Amron.

Auteur, you are wrong about a fetus not being a baby. Why are defendants charged with murder x 2 when they kill the mother and the fetus within the womb? Sounds like a double standard to me. Unfortunately we are riddled with such in society. I am not in favor of abortion but I don't approve of some religous zealot doing what this guy did. Not that my opinion counts, but he should suffer the same fate the Dr. received. As for abortion, we have progressed so much in the area of birth control, the majority of abortions would be unnecessary if people would exercise some thinking beyond middle school level.

From Webster's:

murder: 1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Murder

If it's not unlawful, by definition, it's not murder. Even if you think that an abortion ends a human life, it's not murder if it's performed legally.

Dave - Just playing devil's advocate here, but do you remember your first year of life? If not, does that mean 1 year old babies have no soul? Your statement doesn't hold water - try again.

Karen, I am by no means pro-life, but I think I can give you some insight on their prespective. The reason pro-lifers are opposed to abortion is not just because they beleive that it is a morally wrong act, but also because they beleive it is taking an innocent life. So from their prespective you are violating the fetus's rights to life by getting an abortion. It would be analogous to your views on something like slavery, not only are you opposed to owning slaves yourself, but you are opposed to others owning slaves. So while I beleive that their views are fundamentally flawed (in that early development fetus's are not quite human), it is not really hypocritical for them to wish for their will to be imposed on others.

amron --

You're so unbelievably ridiculous, there are no words. <sigh> Why do they let people like you walk around... ??? Go away.

Karen - Human beliefs are the basis for what is called "law". That is what society deems to be legal or illegal and is therefore forced upon you telling you what to do or not to do despite your own beliefs on the matter. If you wish to live where there are no laws, I suggest moving.

I will never understand men who become so obsessed with the abortion issue. I suspect many are threatened by women being equal, including control of their own bodies. I mean, really, women should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, everyone knows that.

It is still a man's world (oh stop the boo hoo about affirmative action--most women will still opt for the husband's Social Security benefits for a reason, which is that men make more money), and until society is willing to address the issue of all the single mothers living in poverty, expensive child care while they work, etc., there are no grounds to demand that women give birth--especially if the baby will be severely deformed. We are more humane in regard to animals, including euthanasia, yet we can't have the same compassion for our own kind.

Pro-lifer's defintely have no right to expect women to give the baby up for adoption, which is just as psychologically disturbing if not more than abortion (you women know you couldn't). Life is life at the time of vitality (capacity to live on it's own without medical intervention) and is only potential life until then. An unfertilized embryo doesn't come close. Social conservatives never have evidence to support their position, and it's no wonder since they are a superstitious people anyway

I'd trade third-time abortions requiring sterilization for killing in war, and I'd trade insurance coverage for abortion in exchange for coverage of Viagra. The hypocrisy is what really bugs me.

I hope these domestic terrorists--including Glen Beck and Bill O'Reilly who incite the violence--get the maximum. And I hope Health Care reform doesn't leave women further behind. Roe v Wade is not the best law, though with the Hyde Amendment it's acceptable, but it's sure better than what it was like in the Dark Ages before then.

These holier-than-thou Flat Earth Society fundamentalists in our country need a good flogging, not the second-class citizens otherwise known as women. The fundamentalist women can go first for their brain-washed passing of judgment (reserved for a higher being) and persecution of their own gender. Christianity has been a disgrace historically, and it still is!

Unfortunately, this is a viable legal defense.

"Necessity" is less likely, but its cousin "defense of others" has legs. Indeed, according to the story the judge appears to allow that defense to go to the jury.

Remember "battered wife syndrome?" We laughed at Elena Bobbitt's defense, which is now an accepted defense (albeit not as successful as suggested on TV).

Moreover, there is support for "defense of others" in this context.

A MI appeals court in 2002 recognized the right of a pregnant woman to assert a defense of others defense to defend her unborn fetus even as the court denied her the right to defend herself with the same lethal force. 253 Mich. App. 317; 654 N.W.2d 651 (Mich. App. 2002).

Is it really a very far leap to a third-party asserting that right for the fetus?

Worse, in some states (idk about KS) it is the subjective perception of the defendant that counts.

Crim lawyers: what am I missing here?

you are wrong about a fetus not being a baby.

It's not a baby till it is spewed from my vagina and starts to breathe.

Why are defendants charged with murder x 2 when they kill the mother and the fetus within the womb?

That only applies to the fetus being beyond the first trimester.

As for abortion, we have progressed so much in the area of birth control, the majority of abortions would be unnecessary if people would exercise some thinking beyond middle school level.

If you kept up with the times, you'd know that birth control is not always 100% effective and abstinence is BS, that's one reason why we have abortion - it's a last resort. Preferably abortion should be used in the case of rape or incest or terminal illness, but I'd rather an irresponsible woman get an abortion rather than give birth a baby that she didn't want in the first place. I'd also rather women get abortions rather than add to the numbers of homeless children because not all those children will be adopted and it's not fair that they be forced to grow up in poverty or without a family or home.

Wow! So you can hit a pregnant woman in the belly, and if the unborn child dies, it's not murder.

He needs to dump his lawyers and defend himself. Then he will be able to use whatever defense he wants as he is not bound by any BAR agreement. The Constitution allows NO LIMITATIONS ON DEFENSES. (Show me where it allows that power, I dare you).

He should be able to talk all about the late term abortions that the doctor provided (including post extraction termination). He should be able to bring up all the cases where someone WAS TRIED FOR MURDER OF AN UNBORN CHILD.

He is being denied his constitutional right to vigorously defend himself in a court of law. The Judge is assuming that he is guilty of a crime by pre-emtively stopping defenses that have not even been raised.

Jury instructions are not authorized by the US Constitution. If you choose a jury trial, they decide the case, not the judge.

If nothing else, we have proof that this judge is not impartial and should be removed from the bench.

You let people make their defense, and then the jury decides. Willfull disreguard of the US Constitution by a judge is treason.

I think they have done this because they know it is a good defense.

You disagree? OK show me the harm that would arise from letting this man use this defense.

Remember, our Constitution is set up to let the people decide what is right or wrong.

The judge gets to select the jury. Isn't that enough?

I certainly know what I would do. Everytime I get a chance I would pitch that defense whether the judge likes it or not. All he can do it tape your mouth so that you can not speak. Hard to do when you are your own lawyer.

If nothing else, it will illuminate the sham that is our "justice system".

Preventing a defense. Justice is suppossed to be blind.

TruePatriot - as a man I can clearly say, I have never killed off a portion of my body because it didn't suite me. How does doing so make women closer to men in their rights?

Bill O'Reilly and Glenn Beck share the blame for this doctor's murder.

Hate rhetoric affects the weak minded in a profound way, and drives them to thoughtless action.

Ben - If what you say is true, does that mean if someone killed one of those two gentlemen I could blame you for influencing them?

True Patriot -- WELL SAID

Sad State America -- you CLEARLY (and not just because you're a man, either) have no concept of why the decision to abort is made, nor what goes on in a woman's heart over this issue. You appear to think all women are as shallow as you are.

Wow! So you can hit a pregnant woman in the belly, and if the unborn child dies, it's not murder.

I'm going to assume that you're being sarcastic; but even so, do you know how hard you'd have to punch a pregnant woman to kill a 4-month-plus fetus?

Calm down.

The judge is allowing him a defense, just not this defense.

The judge decides matters of law. In this case, whether the facts alleged by the defense, even if true, would support a defense of "necessity." This judge thought not and is not going to allow defense counsel (even a pro se defendant) to muddy the waters with irrelevant testimony in an attempt to confuse the jury.

Don't like the ruling? Appeal. But for now, it's the judge's courtroom and he decides what the law means in his courtroom.

The judge did, however, allow the affirmative defense of "defense of others" to go to the jury. It may not be much but, according to the story, there is no doubt as to guilt.

btw, you have many misconceptions about how our legal system operates.

whodressesyou - and I am shallow based upon what? Is it because I stand for what I believe? If so than I believe that would make you shallow as well. Stand there and throw your judgements - it doesn't make you any smarter than I. I merely posed a question because of a reckless statement.

Namely this statement, "I suspect many are threatened by women being equal, including control of their own bodies." Unless he or she is a psychiatrist I don't see the logic for this statement.

Bajee - "Karen, I am by no means pro-life, but I think I can give you some insight on their prespective. The reason pro-lifers are opposed to abortion is not just because they beleive that it is a morally wrong act, but also because they beleive it is taking an innocent life. So from their prespective you are violating the fetus's rights to life by getting an abortion. It would be analogous to your views on something like slavery, not only are you opposed to owning slaves yourself, but you are opposed to others owning slaves. So while I beleive that their views are fundamentally flawed (in that early development fetus's are not quite human), it is not really hypocritical for them to wish for their will to be imposed on others."

- That is a pretty good description, but there is such a varying degree of "pro-life" versus "pro-choice", that sometimes I have difficulty knowing where I stand. Personally, I am against partial birth abortions. If the baby must be killed in the womb and then extracted part by part, I think that you have a baby at that point and not a "mass of tissue."

- With that being said, it is not right for ANYONE to force others to accept their beliefs. If in an intelligent debate I can convince someone that partial birth abortions should be illegal, great. If I can not, too bad for me. I have to agree to disagree.

Above-the-noise - This Judge goes by "above-the-law"

Of course it's "his" courtroom. Not the citizens.

I guess he has a magic forcefield that block the US Constitution from "his" courtroom.

You get to present the defense of YOUR choice. Not of a list of approved defenses.

The jury doesn't have to go for it. But where in the US Constitution does it allow the Gov't to decide approved defenses?

Face it. The judge doesn't want the jury to make a decision that goes against "his" wishes. That is jury tampering. Let the jury decide.

Or stop having pretend jury trials.

Ryan in Texas

Your argument has no basis in the history of American jurisprudence. I am not familiar with a single Supreme Court opinion, be it majority, concurrence, or dissent, that supports your view. If there is, please provide it.

First off, my religious views are not the basis for me thinking that abortion is wrong. I just think that when you terminate the life of a fully functioning life, you are murdering - in the womb or out. I think that the woman should have made the choice not to become pregnant. That is her choice. Most women that have abortions are not doing so because their birth control failed. Well, not unless you call "really hoping they don't get pregnant" as a control method. Second, even though my religious beliefs are against birth control, I do not feel that I have the right to impose that belief on someone else. Birth control is a religious belief and should be the choice of the parties involved. Again though, I think if you decide to forego the control, you live with the outcome.

ding !!.. spill human blood, more than likely sometime in your Life, your blood will be spilled..we all pay for our beliefs/ mis-beliefs, our good and dirty deeds somehow..no one is immune, not even governments..what goes around, usually comes around somehow..if not materially, perhaps in health or violent means..these times represent IRRESPONSIBILITY in every direction..with that in mind, some are no different than some sub- species out there..no one is to blame but ones self..be and Act like Fool, that's ones Choice..however, don't cry about it later.. it's the Choices we made.............

Amron you are one sick twisted individual. Does your argunemt mean I can kill you to keep you from saving little bast***rds from growing up to be like their parents?

i have read several statements, maybe not even worth my typing to respond, the shooter is a NUT. Stop putting your polly annie crap on the rest of the world, like NO abortions would make the world perfect. I have already read all the stuff about the kids killed, maimed, tortured, stuffed in closets, duck taped, murdered, sexually assaulted, starved, etc....you have to be kidding, these are ones that made it past abortion. They are DEAD, or have huge issues to surpass in life now. OMG shut the heck up and do something for the ones living that have needs now to deal with.

Sorry i forgot to say kill this nut and not waste time

No doubt! Anything less than 1st degree for this TERRIORIST would be unforegivable. And Ryan, do yourself a favor, get a grip, and do some studying on the Legal System, preferably before you make another ignorant comment. Please.

If intentionally killing a fetus is murder, is accidently killing a fetus also actionable? Surely it should at least be the equivalent of manslaughter or perhaps negligent homicide?

Should a homicide detective have to investigate every miscarriage? Was it natural? How did the mothers actions impact the issue? The vast majority of fertilized eggs never even become more than a blastocyst.

How will we be sure that no human life passes unnoticed? What type of womb monitoring program would we need?

Well if you see a video of a fetus trying to dodge the vacuum hose pointed at it (in a desperate attempt to to save itself) and then being incinerated into jelly in the most grotesque manner, you may just stop being so ultra protective of abortion. Abortion should be legal in cases of incest, mother's health and rape...but for it to be used as 'birth-control' is barbaric.
My mother considered aborting me and then went on to have an abortion when I was 10 years old. She then had 2 children after that. She still has not recovered psychologically from that abortion. I am also happy to be here, so I can't be approving of abortion in general.
Having said this, you cannot be hateful and violent towards Doctors and other staff in order to stop the violence against the unborn... it is counter-productive.
Love and peace to all...

When will you Pro-lifers learn . . . late term abortions ARE NOT healthy babies that will survive. They are babies with severe deformities that will die an extremely painful death once they are out of the womb. They were NOT healthy babies that had a mother "change her mind." That's why there are very VERY strict guidlines about who can get a late term abortion.

You would not do the humane thing for these babies? You would make your child suffer in agonizing pain before it dies just minutes after birth? What kind of person does that make you? I can tell you that this type of action does not make you a moral person, it makes you sick and twisted.

It's not a baby till it is spewed from my vagina and starts to breathe.

Yeeesssh, Auteur. Forgetting the abortion/necessity debate for an instant, I have to say that statement is not exactly oozing maternal instinct there. Perhaps "spewing" maternal instinct would be the correct phrase to use.

To all, I have absolutely no issue with this man being prosecuted for murder. We can not have individuals making individual decisions as to what does or not constitute justifiable homicide. Even if you share the accused man's views regarding abortion, or even if the Doctor was guilty of an actual crime, the law only allows use of deadly force to prevent immanent harm to another person. What he [allegedly] did was an execution. If you allow such actions, you might just as well issue hunting licenses to every citizen to shoot anybody they feel is a criminal.

Also, people who believe human life begins at conception, or at some undefinable moment prior to birth are not idiots, Nazis or misogynists. [Where's tyler when he could be of use?] They are people who honestly feel a murder is committed with every abortion. The opposite is also true, the proponents of legalized abortion are not amoral baby-killers; they just hold a different, but quite scientifically defensible view. Unlike something like slavery, this is an issue about which reasonable people can disagree, although apparently not on this thread.

amron-1277583

Killing unborn babies is indefensible also.As far as this murdering doctor he should have been bared from church until he gave up his evil murdering ways.I do not approve of taking the law in ones own hands.But the children that this evil doctor killed were human beings.they all had human DNA and were growing so there forth they were living because they would not be growing if they were not living, this makes the fetus(unborn babies) living human beings

What if I have a large, cancerous tumor inside of me? If I let it go, it will change my life forever. If I get rid of it, I'm taking out a piece of living, growing tissue with human DNA, MY DNA, in it. Is that killing? Does that make my tumor a "living human being"? No, it does not.

My body, my choice.

Bajee

Well thats not really the point I had. I was going for the answer "acorns" so I could point out that you would be a damn idiot to call an acorn an oak tree.

That would require critical reasoning skills. Demanding that anti-abortionists use critical reasoning skills would give them an aneurysm.

They would rather spend their whole lives dictating what others should do with their life, but take absolutely no time looking after all the junkies who have babies, broke pregnant teenagers, and welfare receipients who make more of an impact on society than some woman who isn't allowed to make decisions about her own life.

cory

As for abortion, we have progressed so much in the area of birth control, the majority of abortions would be unnecessary if people would exercise some thinking beyond middle school level.

Do you consider it to be in the best interest of the child to be raised by people who, according to you, are incapable of "thinking beyond middle school level"?

Auteur

It's not a baby till it is spewed from my vagina and starts to breathe.

The Bible seems to back that up.

Genesis 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

I for one am shocked that there's this much rancor over an issue as benign as abortion. Everyone here (including me) would be better off spending their time volunteering at a local shelter or hospital.

when you terminate the life of a fully functioning life

As I parse this sentence, it seems to support a "viability" argument as to the personhood of the fetus. Is that a correct, Don?

I think if you decide to forego the control, you live with the outcome.

Shouldn't a "personal responsibility" argument also assume (or accept) that the decision to terminate pregnancy is also the responsibility of the woman, and therefore it is up to her to make that decision and live with the consequences of that decision, whichever way she decides?

"That is certainly not a position I want to be in — because I am not God," Wilbert said.

Can't say that for these pro-lifers. Abortion is LEGAL... Fetus are not human. You are NOT God and stop using God/jesus for an excuse to push your hitler ideology on everyone .

The bozo was wrong to kill the Dr.

If the law ever let Him get away with this... There will be a lot more killings to save a unborn child... This is what happens when you take the rights away from another person... Attorney's will use any excuse to win a case... If they get a all Catholic Jury... He will get away with it...

Killing unborn babies is indefensible also.

What the--Not this bullsh!t again.

Either my bashing of pro-life crapists went unseen or you have a very adorable sense of humor.

The first, I pity you, the latter... keep that humor. It makes life more enjoyable. Aw.

Sad State:

Well you said that Abortion is: killing a part of her body that doesn't suit her.

This isn't actually true... the fetus isn't a part of her body. it's inside her body, but it's like saying the cake is in my body it's a part of my body.... it's not a part of your body untill it's digested.

Now if the fetus died (naturaly or otherwise) some of the nutrience would go back into the body and most of it would exit, through Menstration.

Anyway just some basic biology to help you out there.

Aw.

I like you.

Also I want to bring up the difference between an unborn baby, a fetus, and a Embryo.

The overwhelming majority of abortions in America happen before the 10th week of pregnancy (a typical NOT late term abortion) while (for lack of a better word) thing is a Embryo. At this stage if it were removed from the mother it would die, very quickly. The embryo doesn't have lungs, blood, or a brain. it does has a heart that beats but the heart doesn't actually serve any purpose.

it is not conscious, it is not self aware, and it's physical biology has more in common with a lizard then with its mother.

sometime between the 10-12 week an argument can be made that the brain has become sophisticated enough to be considered active and the embryo may begin to move by its own accord.

Consciousness could arguably start sometime between the 13^th week and the 28^th week… most mothers would agree that their Embryo is conscious by the 19^th week.

The legal cutoff date for late term abortions is at 20 weeks, the qualifications and legal justifications for a late term abortion are much more strict then that of a regular Term abortion.

Around week 27 is the earliest possible time that an Embryo can be born and could conceivably survive on its own. The Embryo has some lungs. At this point I think it would be fair to call it an “unborn baby” even though that is not a scientific term… Anytime before that if it were Born, it would not be a Baby, it would be dead.

No abortions occur after the 27^th week, so unborn babies are not aborted.

This is just scientific fact, no personal opinion… use it to come up with or back up any opinion you may have.

For me Personally, I am pro-choice, except I do not believe it is morally ok to abort after the 9^th week unless the continued pregnancy seriously poses a threat to the fetus/embryo and or the mother.

The problem with killing a doctor for performing late term abortions is you can’t imagine the reasons behind those abortions, how many lives did the doctor save by helping the mother after she made a very difficult decision.

The Bible seems to back that up.

The bible doesn't back anything up, because the bible is not reality nor is it the truth.

It's stupid to give the fetus more rights than the woman/girl carrying it.

hoozside - You fail to see the difference between abortion ( a LEGAL act ) and the intentional MURDER of a fetus ( an illegal act of malice and/or premeditation ). The ONLY reason the gov't considers a fetus as a 'person' during a murder, is because it was murdered according to the definition above.... an act of malice or premeditation. You're talking apples and oranges here. Your point is MOOT.

Your statement, "sometime between the 10-12 week an argument can be made that the brain has become sophisticated enough to be considered active and the embryo may begin to move by its own accord," is a little misleading. The slow process of myelination has only barely begun in the brain at that point, so no deliberate movement is possible, only the same sort of responses seen in the severed legs of dead frogs. Other responses seen before the 23rd to 27th week are little more and hardly indicative of conciousness.

Morally, I believe that no person or thing has a right to the use of a woman's body without her consent. By the third trimester, women can be seen as having given implied consent to a fetus, which now needs a good reason to revoke, but they usually have very good ones by that point.

The bible doesn't back anything up, because the bible is not reality nor is it the truth.

Auteur, many if not most people who are anti-choice seem to draw their perspective from a misguided biblical belief that life begins at conception. In 1.53 I was pointing to a Biblical reference that supports your belief that a fetus becomes a baby once it breathes. For some that might be relevant.

Oh well then never mind.

You'd raise a "little Hitler"

I'm Jewish. My whole synagogue and my parents - who are both women - also supports the women's choice to choose.

First degree murder is first degree murder, a**hole. Suck it up, Roeder.

Thank you Sacrilege.

Your What Hurts

If it eases your conscience to say abortion is not murder, then so be it. Make no doubt about it, though, abortion is murder, pure and simple.

Or,

If it eases your conscience to say 2+2 is not 3, then so be it. Make no doubt about it, though, 2+2 is 3, pure and simple.

Fetuses aren't people, they're not babies. Just because it has human DNA, doesn't mean it is human.

BULL @!$%#.. what is it at 6 months? or 7 months? This doctor was also commiting murder of babies at 9 months. Dont give me that BS that this is not a human.. Why is it you abortion approvers that you want the added penalty for someone who murders a woman who is pregnant but you dont consider a baby a human when it comes to abortion?

EGlide Go to church, no. But support churches? Can you say government supported faith-based initiatives? My tax money going to churches against my will. And to live according to religion, IE religious bodies telling us what we can read, what we can watch and try to tell us waht we can think. BS!

Ok I can see your point. I don't want my tax dollars going to support gays, lesbians and abortions. I don't want my tax dollars going to pay for yours or anyone Else's HEALTH-CARE. I don't want my tax dollars going to support welfare people either. No one is forcing you to live according to religion. Who is telling you want you can read? Usually it is some left wing nut job group telling us what kids have to learn or what can be in a library.. No one is telling you what to watch.. Look at all the crap on TV Today..

Thoughts from Cali : Where is it said that " only babies with severe deformaties are being ABORTED." Give me the proof of what you are saying is true.

No babies were aborted by Dr. Tiller, only fetuses with deformities that made them unable to live outside the womb and those that posed serious risks to their mothers health or lives. Several attempts to prove otherwise were made, and Dr. Tiller was acquitted of all such accusations.

Make no doubt about it, though, abortion is murder, pure and simple.

Abortion is not murder. A fetus isn't a person till it leave the mother's body. The fact that you're calling abortion murder, shows just how little you know about the subject.

dudleydoright-786532--

Do you even know what the definition of murder is? Perhaps you need to look up the definition in a dictionary.

jared-905328--

Call it baby if you will, that is your business. It is a fetus to me, and if you think a blob of cells that NO ONE can decipher what the hell is it is a baby, then wow.

And no it is NOT killing an innocent. It is not living, breathing alive on its own. But hey YOU let the fetus be born and THEN if it is killed what is that? Collateral damage? An accident?

My problem with this defense is that , the defendant seems to want to argue that this doctor was killed for some act that might be taken at some future date,

In my opinion the judge was correct in disallowing this mularky.

Abortion is definitly the killing of a baby.

Assuming you can even explain how abortion is murder, as in be original and stop using your religious and or personal views as a reference, your argument is crap. Do you support the death penalty, because if you do then you're supporting killing someone's baby even if they did kill someone else's baby and not only is that support of murder but it's also support of revenge. You wouldn't know murder if it was tattooed on your pupil.

The fetus is not more important than the life and or health of the woman or girl carrying it. Also, the fetus is not more important than the lives and health of the already born children who have no homes and are living poverty, who are also being abused and neglected, or the children who are born into bad families.

Abortion is not extinction, so get over yourself.

REDaly:

The slow process of myelination has only barely begun in the brain at that point, so no deliberate movement is possible, only the same sort of responses seen in the severed legs of dead frogs.

Oh I agree... but it's a tricky thing to define... By "on it's own Accord" I should have writen without aid. at this point the fetus doesn't have an Accord... lol.

accord.

The only vile one here is you Shift Lock, not to mention your mouth is equally as vile.

Two female parents...OK that explains a lot of your anti male rage

Assuming you can even explain that BS, the only anti-male rage I have is against those who are against female reproductive rights or that women should have a choice in what happens to their bodies and the males who treat women like lesser beings just because they have a uterus.

Shift, I reported your comments as having no value... apparently you are taking this discussion very personaly, I suggest taking a break, and perhaps a glass of water.

Shift Lock, there is a difference, perhaps more subtle than you a capable of registering, between angry comments and INTENTIONALLY inflammatory comments. Yours are definitely the latter. There is no excuse for your tone. I, for one, have reported your posts as inflammatory and without value. I STRONGLY suspect I am not alone in having done so. And if I am, I'm quite comfortable with that.

You need therapy and I pity you

I am in therapy, and my therapist encourages me to express my opinions and views.

I'm the boss of my body, not you. I decide what happens in and with my uterus, not you. Take a chill pill Shift Lock. You have no idea what you're talking about and are just trying to incite an argument.

Thanks Tyler.

Tyler...have you read any of Auteur's comments?

What is wrong with you? You are a major bully who totally takes sides. I have tried to make sense of you, but you are very immature at 23 and a truly unfair individual. Why don't you check out Auteur's initial inflammatory comments and the subsequent belligerent remarks to those who responded. If you kick our Shift Lock for a week, she deserves to be kicked out for a month!

Auteur:
It's not a baby till it is spewed from my vagina and starts to breathe.

Then she uses insults and profanity in about 30 other remarks...plus hateful comments. About 50 people disagreed with her taste!

I agree Auteur's "spew" comment was very tasteless and she does have some real issues with being hateful, but in all fairness to Tyler, is everyone clicking the report button on her posts like they did with Shift's?

I understand Tyler, it is your job, of course. Sorry for the lack of control on my part.

Oh, and by the way, I love my screen name. :) And your welcome, Auteur.

Thanks Tyler. Good logic on most of your reasons...

But why was Shift Locke Suspended for a week and Sacrelige for one day FOR USING almost THE EXACT SAME LANGUAGE:

Sacrelige: You're the piece of sh**. Shut the hell up, you overly-sensitive crybaby.

ShiftLocke: I know your type. You'd raise a "little Hitler" YOU ARE ONE huge piece of SH**.

Justme:

I agree Auteur's "spew" comment was very tasteless and she does have some real issues with being hateful...

Many people have posted similar comments about the origin of this whole affair which was Auteur's provoking / combative comments. She called many people ignorant, vile and worse. I will post some comments below when I get the time.

Auteur:
I express my opinions daily and explicitly and I just bought a new vibrator and some condoms. I'm good to go.
#213.7

The only vile one here is you Shift Lock, not to mention your mouth is equally as vile.
#1.91

You can see the tone, there are too many comments by her to put here...when I go to other pages I keep losing my posting on this page, but ABOVE are some examples Tyler....

BELOW...Some responses from other commenters:

Yeeesssh, Auteur. Forgetting the abortion/necessity debate for an instant, I have to say that statement is not exactly oozing maternal instinct there.

Auteur - your therapy is so not working.

I don't think she realizes that she is coming across like a temperamental 2 year old. It's a huge shame when a person is so intolerant and hateful.

Auteur is feeling the weight of being a member of several persecuted or oppressed minorities.
You are one SICK PUPPY. ONE SICK PUPPY... That's what you are. Please don't ever think of becoming a mother... I know your type
The way you describe giving birth renders you the most insensitive commenter I have ever heard of on Newsvine...Bravo! (you need some serious therapy for thinking and talking this way - AND, from the posts here 99% of others agree with me)....
If you talk about your own Uterus that way...you show very little "respect" to yourself AND women in general.
You are belligerent and that is a nature that you have to live with. You need therapy and I pity you...just make sure you never "spew out" any kids.

Some postings avoid directly breaking the CoH but they entice and provoke. Hence they take the discussion off topic and make this a chat room as opposed to a message board. THEY TALK IN A CONDESCENDING AND BELITTLING FASHION TO OTHERS AND THEN JUST SIT BACK AND WATCH...This is what Auteur was doing in many of her postings.

Their actions should be reprimanded as well and not just those who take the bait and get upset with such people and then break the CoH.

Thanks Tyler.

Isn't spamming against the CoH, because you [Cactus] and Long and Shift have been doing a lot of that.

Just remind them of their hypocrisy with all their rants about government staying out of their lives unless we are talking abortion, then the government gets to tell you what to do.

GMOSucks - Exactly!!

These right wing morons (literally, with less education) talk about government control and what not - yet they try to enforce a MILLION times more control using RELIGION - no better than Al-Qaeda.

Also, it seems like to them, "human life" is only important before birth - because they for sure don't seem to pick up the tabs to raise the baby they "saved". Bunch of fundamentalist hypocrites.

floyd-

So what? That's Tiller's business and not yours. Mind your own and we'll all be much happier.

Hey, Floyd:

Two wrongs may not make a right, but two lefts do. LOL

Floyd -

Tiler died for your sins (literally!)

I am conservative in my beliefs when it comes to late term abortions. I believe that late term abortions that are used for birth control are morally wrong. I understand that they are a medically necessary procedure to save the life of the mother, and when the fetus is unviable.

With that being said, Roeder deserves to be punished to the full extent of the law. Tiller performed late term abortions to save the lives of the mothers as well as to end pregnancies with an unviable fetus.

Even if Tiller was performing late term abortions for birth control only, Roeder does not have the right to walk into a church and shoot him. If you don't like something, you use intelligent debate in an attempt to change their mind. If you are unsuccessful - TOO BAD.

Roeder, enjoy prison, or death row, or wherever you end up - it is where you belong.

Ed-743399...

I fully suppport a woman's right to choose. I also agree completely that the right is completely hypocritical on the abortion issue (among others). And I am constantly knocking down right wing lies and distortions.

I'm sure it won't be long before there are posts more worthy ( to put it mildly) of your response...but Floyd's comment was hardly out of line. I'm not arguing that he's right or wrong...I'm just saying that his comment was consistent with reasonable discussion about the topic at hand. And rational discussion shouldn't be discouraged, even when you disagree. I'd much rather this board be filled with people like him than ranting lunatics of either political stripe.

Wow...so much crap but I'll do my best here. Stupid blanket statements drive me nuts. I'll throw a few equally stupid ones back for purposes of pointing out the lack of substance.

Just remind them of their hypocrisy with all their rants about government staying out of their lives unless we are talking abortion, then the government gets to tell you what to do.

Never mind the rants from the libs about the govie staying out of their lives and not trampling on their rights, and "stay out of my bedroom". I suppose it's not all all hypocritical to demand that what you do with your body is no one else's business but expect everyone else to foot the bill if you decide you don't want the responsibility or consequences of what you did with your body.

- yet they try to enforce a MILLION times more control using RELIGION - no better than Al-Qaeda.

Absolutely - because we all know that the only reason anyone opposes abortion is religion...there are no other reasons. (sarcasm) Exactly who is trying to pass a law to force you to go to church? Which church is that? Paranoid or just dramatic?

Also, it seems like to them, "human life" is only important before birth - because they for sure don't seem to pick up the tabs to raise the baby they "saved". Bunch of fundamentalist hypocrites.

Wow...we really are getting good at pushing off our responsibilities onto others aren't we? Never mind the very large (did I mention large?) amount of charities that are from faith-based organizations. How many orphanages have you seen that don't have "St." in front of the name? They already are picking up the tab in a whole lot of ways...what are you doing? I'm sure it's just as impressive (coughs)

For cryin out loud, can y'all come up with some intelligent rants about the conservatives? Are you really that rabid that you believe that all conservatives think murdering this doc was right? Don't even try to tell me there are no nutjobs on your side of the fence.

For all of you who do not think abortion is murder, since you are on the internet, google late term abortion then try to make your case.

Floyd,
I'm not for abortion what-so-ever, however, it is very wrong of you to say that any one person is in 'hell'.. let God be the Judge of things..not you or any other human being.

dizzykat - "I also agree completely that the right is completely hypocritical on the abortion issue (among others). And I am constantly knocking down right wing lies and distortions."

- I can say the same thing about the left (even on the topic of abortion.) If you think that the right is the only side that is ever hypocritical, or the only side that ever lies, then you are sorely misinformed.

Keet. Murder is the unlawful killing of another. If I shoot a man in cold blood it is murder, if I shoot a man in self defense in accordance with the law it is not murder, it is killing. There is a difference between killing and murder, and that difference is the law. While I beleive late term abortion really is horrific, it is also very rare. The majority of abortions occur at a point in term where the fetus is indistinguishable from a Gummi Bear.

Case closed.

"Just remind them of their hypocrisy with all their rants about government staying out of their lives unless we are talking abortion, then the government gets to tell you what to do."

Never mind the rants from the libs about the govie staying out of their lives and not trampling on their rights, and "stay out of my bedroom". I suppose it's not all all hypocritical to demand that what you do with your body is no one else's business but expect everyone else to foot the bill if you decide you don't want the responsibility or consequences of what you did with your body.

Who is it that wants special rights to descriminate against gay people?

Against abortion, then support all birth control. Oops, you can't do that either. I don't want anybody telling me what is or is not right. I should have the right to do anything I want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I should have the right to read anything I want. I should have the right to think anything I want.

Exactly who is trying to pass a law to force you to go to church? Which church is that? Paranoid or just dramatic?

Go to church, no. But support churches? Can you say government supported faith-based initiatives? My tax money going to churches against my will. And to live according to religion, IE religious bodies telling us what we can read, what we can watch and try to tell us waht we can think. BS!

How many orphanages have you seen that don't have "St." in front of the name?

And how many of those do not do religious indoctrination? Hmmm?

Just remind them of their hypocrisy with all their rants about government staying out of their lives unless we are talking abortion, then the government gets to tell you what to do.

It seems to me the hypocrisy runs both ways on the government control issue. But the defense in this case is crazy, Abortion is legal. It will be interesting to see how access to abortion might be limited now that the government has taken more of a role in health care, the rule of the mob is not always in the best interest of freedom loving people. It seem hypocritical to say don't infringe on one right but control everything else our freedoms are eroding by the minute.

RV in GB#1

dizzykat - "I also agree completely that the right is completely hypocritical on the abortion issue (among others). And I am constantly knocking down right wing lies and distortions."

- I can say the same thing about the left (even on the topic of abortion.) If you think that the right is the only side that is ever hypocritical, or the only side that ever lies, then you are sorely misinformed.

--------------------

Please show me where I suggested anything of the sort.

My point, which you apparently missed, was that I was not defending the person because I agreed with it. I was actually criticizing someone sharing my own view...for unfairly criticizing a reasonably stated opposing view.

Show me an example of someone on the right doing THAT on here.

I am about as conservative as they come, but I agree that this is murder pure and simple. I also don't think that we conservatives have the "corner" on hypocrisy or "stupidity". Their are many uninformed people in our society, no matter their political persuasion and I think it is unfair to lump everyone in under a broad statement. I enjoy some heated debate with my liberal friends, but I don't think less of them nor they of me.

Who is it that wants special rights to descriminate against gay people?

Do you honestly think religion is the only reason for not accepting gay people? Are the Athiests who oppose it closet-Christians? The funny thing is...there are a lot of Christians who support the idea of equal rights. That war is just not being waged at the right angle but that's a whole 'nother debate there.

Against abortion, then support all birth control. Oops, you can't do that either. I don't want anybody telling me what is or is not right. I should have the right to do anything I want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I should have the right to read anything I want. I should have the right to think anything I want.

I'm not Catholic so I have no problem with BC. Used it for quite some time myself. I'm betting you could not find statistics supporting the idea that all Christians are against BC.

You already do have the right to think what you want and say what you want. Funny though I bet you'd get po'd if a Christian exercised that right within your hearing. The catch to that right is sometimes you have to hear stuff you don't agree with.

I agree re reading what you want - that whole book banning thing is nuts. That's not a religious pov...that's a societal issue stemming from the popular disease called "PC". Everyone's skin just gets thinner..and thinner...and thinner...

Can you say government supported faith-based initiatives? My tax money going to churches against my will.

First, Obama already opened that program to "others" which is as it should be. Any charity is good. Second, the gov will keep cutting them a break because the gov could not possibly take on the financial weight of what those organizations are carrying for them in terms of social services.

And how many of those do not do religious indoctrination? Hmmm?

I'm sure they do. If it's such a travesty who is stepping up to the plate to fill the need? What was that about them not taking care of the unwanted kids?? Only concerned with them until they're born?

And to live according to religion, IE religious bodies telling us what we can read, what we can watch and try to tell us waht we can think. BS!

Hehehe this one got me laughing. My church isn't too horrible on that. They don't tell me what to read (besides the Bible of course), and the only thing they've said not to watch is porn (not my thing anyhow). They have mentioned the "impure thoughts" thing and I have to tell you, if that one is a major pet peeve of the Big Guy...I'm hosed.

There is a group that dictates no coffee, no soda, no tea...etc etc. (shivers) A world without Starbucks??!

Kat, by saying "the right is completely hypocritical on the abortion issue (among others)" - any point that you are making after that looks back-handed. By the way, nothing in post #2.17 refutes what I said. I said "IF you think ..."

I understand that you were criticizing Ed (I didn't miss your point, I read your post thoroughly - and appreciate what you were trying to do), however, it appeared back-handed.

well JustMe, I believe all of you conservatives are not just racist and full of hatred and hypocrisy. Will be the right term or adjective for all of you is FASCISTS ? ? ?

For wiki: Fascism fashioned itself as the "complete opposite of socialism. by REJECTING THE ECONOMIC AND MATERIAL CONCEPTION OF HISTORY, the fundamental belief of fascim being that human being ARE MOTIVATED BY GLORY AND HEROISM rather than economic motives, in contrast to the worldview of capitalism and socialism.

Furthermore, Fascim is a political ideology that seeks to combine RADICAL and AUTHORITARIAN NATIONALISM with a CORPORATIST ECONOMIC SYSTEM, and which is usually considered to be on the FAR RIGHT of the traditional left-right political spectrum.

Did you ever heard of THE FELLOWSHIP also known as THE FAMILY ???

oh yeah, God talk to me.......lol

I don't want religion to tell me what to do or read or say but I don't mind the government inflicting their vision and using my money how ever they wish? Big government has oppressed more people, murdered more people and restricted freedom to more people than any other entity in history. If one fears the oppression of religion then they should certainly be very skeptical of the government and the history of the power hungry pedants who rule. The perpetrator here is a religious fanatic but he no represents religion than Hitler or Stalin represented socialists.

Forcing one's beliefs on others has been done for years in our Country and every other Country. They are called laws and they are made by people who feel strongly about a right or wrong. Lawmakers write laws and force their views on religious people the same way religious people seek to impose their views on lawmakers. The difference is in looking at what is actually best for society and picking that.

If abortion is not murder - then why is killing a pregnant woman murder of the mother and baby. Someone please explain that to me. It has never made sense.

If abortion is not murder - then why is killing a pregnant woman murder of the mother and baby. Someone please explain that to me. It has never made sense.

It's only admissable if the fetus is past the first trimester, because some people believe that the fetus can survive outside the womb after the first trimester so they think it should be counted as a person if a pregnant woman is killed.

So a post - first trimester baby has rights to life?

Carlos,

I think I disagree partly. Organized religion (namely, the Catholic Church) is solely responsible for all the wars and untold numbers of deaths over the centuries (though they were big government for a time). And it makes sense -- religion is BIG dollars. It's so frustrating to see people hang onto fairytales handed down generations and generations (by human beings). There is no Hell. There is no Heaven. Abortion is nauseating, but I will not be the one to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her own body. Put down your Bibles. If you are so concerned for the welfare of the unfortunate on this planet, help feed, clothe, and educate them. Feeling justified in taking another human's life because one feels he's doing evil? Are you kidding me? Is that what your God speaks of?

Abetterlife - why do we have the death sentence? And just to clarify I do not support this idiots actions, but the way you worder it, nobody should be punished for murder.

By the way, several religious organizations are "concerned for the welfare of the unfortunate on this planet, help feed, clothe, and educate them". Ever heard of the Salvation Army, etc...

with a name like floyd, you can only be a sperm donor. If you don't want to have unwanted children, use a condom or sterilize yourself. Get OUT of a conversation where women have to carry a baby fullterm. And for all those women out there that want all those babies born, let me know if you get pregnant during a rape if you are going to raise it. Most people blabbing about this stuff are beyond child bearing age.

I love these threads so many people in them act as if they are Gods right hand man and have the right to Judge whoever they want and know what punishment God has for them. You guys are blessed for God has yet to make me his equal.

What is the real truth... It is the Woman's right to do what ever they think is best for themselves... The Church has no right to force them to do what Their beliefs are!!! This Country is suppose to keep Religion out of Politics...

This Country is suppose to keep Religion out of Politics...

It's supposed to but the people in charge are too easily frightened and moved by the threats and pressure from the self righteous religious right.

It's become a religious issue.

It certainly IS a religious issue for some people!!! A LOT of people!

It certainly IS a religious issue for some people!!! A LOT of people!

And those people need to shut the hell up.

The ones waving the bibles around.

I don't attack MSNBC for this story.. MSNBC is not a news organization to begin with.. It is a rumor mill and does yellow journalism. As done by OLBERMAN and MADDCOW.

Jared, If abortion isn't a religious issue, why did the council of catholic bishops get a seat at the health care negotiations?

i see no bibles being waved around? Be more specific please.

I see nothing to support your argument that abortion is murder. Be more specific please.

of course it's a religious issue... the question of "When exactly does 'life' begin in an fetus" is a very religious question. No matter how much we know that isn't a question that Science can answer, because Life isn't defined by Science, it's defined by Philosophy and religion. All Science can do is give us the information needed to figure out where and when be thing stops beign a thing and starts beign a Who....

However that is why you can't have seperation of church and state and put a reasonable law on abortion. Any line that a person draws saying Beyond this stage it is a person, is based on their own personal religiuos beliefs.

There for... it should be a topic answered specificaly by the family of the pregnant woman and the pregnant woman herself, without the interference of government.

it should be a topic answered specificaly by the family of the pregnant woman and the pregnant woman herself, without the interference of government.

Abortion (or not) is purely a personal choice. If it's a religious issue for you, fine. Make YOUR choice based on your religion and respect the religion (or absence thereof) of others. In ANY case, it is not a matter for government to have any deciding interest.

As I've said before then, where reasonable people can disagree it is the PRIMARY responsibility of government to ensure the broadest possible individual freedoms. Those who are opposed to abortion should NEVER be forced to have one. Those who see them as a necessity in their lives for reasons of importance to themselves should not be inhibited.

Plenty of non-religious people are against abortion, so your premise is flawed.

You calling abortion murder is flawed. You can't even explain how or why abortion is murder. You also can't explain why the fetus is more important than the health and life of the woman/girl carrying it and you can't explain why the fetus is more important than the already born children who are living in poverty with no parents or even a home and are abused and neglected daily.

well JustMe, I believe all of you conservatives are not just racist and full of hatred and hypocrisy. Will be the right term or adjective for all of you is FASCISTS ? ? ?

See, proof positive there are people with serious issues on both sides of the fence.

David...

um... yes that is what I was saying, because it is inherently a religious issue and religion has no place in government then it shouldn't be decided by the government.

Even an atheist can admit that the beginning of life is more of a Philosophical/religious question... not so much one that has a definitive scientific answer.

I think we're in complete agreement, yourkiddingright. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

That's what they do John, it's an assumption based on facts... In the past we've seen them threaten the judges & those that said anything against Roeder

Plus we are discussing a story about a conservative who shot a doctor and is now claiming necessity, so the assumption that conservatives will project their insults and threats for the judge isn't a big stretch of logic.

"We" have, huh? How many times, exactly? Apparently, it's been just enough times for the news media to hear about it and make the story sound even more shocking, by telling everyone that there's some army of conservatives about to storm the courthouse and free this monster. I think the average person has the sense to see this guy for what he is.

What if a liberal decided to kill a person who had different ideas than them, would you say every liberal was crazy and expect them to cause trouble?

No just the liberals who condoned that kind of behavior and then insulted people who thought the judge acted according to the law.

Exactly, GMO. That's all I'm saying. I just get tired of this "them and us" mindset. Do people seriously believe there's a lot of sympathy for this guy? I mean any sympathy is too much, but still...

exactly john, the whole intolerance of the left to anything that they dont agree with is amazing...nazi amazing. oh and this guy needs to go bye bye, what a nut.

The only "necessity killing" that needs to happen is to this POS murderer. Just another christian sociopath who knows nothing of Jesus' true teachings. I'm sick of them all and their fascist mentality and religion.

Pedro

there is only one thing worse than a lunatic and that is a lunatic who hides behind the cross and God.

cant stop there frances....anyone who kills or attempts to remove the rights of others based on their unproven belief system.....ie any religion which would include the global warming alarmists. i think anyone who puts total faith in anything that is not proven as a idiot at the very best and fascist at the very worst.....

james-1416766 thank you for illustrating what I was talking about. It's not just the left or the right, it's anyone who thinks they're better than the other side. Yes, conservatives like to bash liberals, but liberals like to bash conservatives just as much.

yes read my post on 18

Just proof of America's own brand of Christian Jihad. I blame this on the farest right rhetoric that fans the flames and gives people like this the idea to go out and kill others on their behalf. How long before they start strapping young men with bombs and making them suicide killers with a promise of eternal life with their own set of virgins in Heaven.

Oops, it sounded like you were singling out the right. I see what you were getting at though.

I recieved an Email today that fits well here, so I figured I would share.

The Pastor entered his donkey in a race and it won.
The Pastor was so pleased with the donkey
that he entered it in the race again and it won again.

The local paper read:
PASTOR'S
ASS OUT FRONT.

The Bishop was so upset with this kind of
publicity that he ordered the
Pastor not to enter the donkey in another race.

The next day the local paper headline read:
BISHOP SCRATCHES
PASTOR'S ASS.

This was too much for the Bishop so he
ordered the Pastor to get rid of the donkey.

The Pastor decided to give it to a Nun in a
nearby convent.

The local paper, hearing of the news, posted
the following headline the next day:

NUN HAS BEST ASS IN TOWN.
The Bishop fainted.

He informed the Nun that she would have to
get rid of the donkey so she
sold it to a farmer for $10.

The next day the paper read:
NUN
SELLS ASS FOR $10.

This was too much for the Bishop so he
ordered the Nun to buy back the donkey and lead it to
the plains where it could run wild.

The next day the headlines read:

NUN ANNOUNCES HER ASS IS WILD AND FREE.

The Bishop was buried the next day.

The moral of the story is . . ... being
concerned about public opinion can
bring you much grief and misery . . even shorten your life.

So be yourself and enjoy life.
Stop worrying about everyone else's ass and
you'll be a lot happier and live longer!

Have
a nice day! And a Merry Christmas!

Yea, I aimed this at the far right, only because their ideology was behind his motives for this murder. But, any ideology that is unmoveable and feels that all should believe their way (right or left), has the tendency to pull lunatic fringes towards their cause. People whose minds are easily manipulated. It becomes a "believe as I believe; do as I do; think as I think or die" state of mind. Jim Jones comes to mind; let's all drink the Kool-Aid and we will all have a good time. We all need to understand that their is very little that is black and white in life; almost everything exists in shades of grey.

A true Conservative says abortion rights should be left up to the states, not in the Government hands. (FYI - that is the same thing Palin said)

A Religious conservative says abortion is wrong.

A true Conservative says the Government should get out of marriage and let any people get into a contact if they want (gays or even 3 or 4 more people)

A Religious conservative sayis marriage is between an man and a woman and they want the government to ban others.

Now one person can be both of the above, but to lump all conservatives in the religious wing is wrong!

Kind of like saying a liberal is PRO-Abortion, most aren't, most are pro-choice.

Liberals want what feels good to them to be the law, right now it is gays, but don't even talk about multiple wifes or husbands that is wrong, well for the time being it is.

But it is no fun letting the facts get in the way of what you believe in.

John...I can cite many examples of popular mouthpieces of the right advocating violence in one form or another.

Micheal Savage does so on a fairly regular basis.

Bill O'Reilly often referred to Tiller as "Tiller the baby killer".

Rush Limbaugh said "rioting in Denver" was the "best dam thing"

Even Pat Robertson advocated the political assasination of Chaves.

I could go on and on. People bringing guns to presidential events and carrying signs that say "we're unarmed...this time".

So please tell me where you see that sort of support for violence from the left? Sure...there are some crackpots. But the simple fact is that such people are the "lunatic fringe" on the left...but are the "main stream" on the right. Deny it all you want...but it doesn't change the facts.

Jeremy-960164...good one. Very funny.

and

Tom - Plymouth...regarding your comparison of "religious conservative" versus "real conservative".

Very well put. But it raises the question...where are the "real conservatives"? You pointed out Sarah Palin as holding the "real conservative" stand on abortion. OK...but Sarah Palin is a opportunistic moron and I don't think those characteristics go hand in hand with being a "real conservative".

I support gun ownership. I support states rights...but I would disagree with conservatives who claim that "states rights" means that the states can ban anything not specifically reserved in the constitution. In fact...it seems that the 2nd amendment is the only one that self proclaimed conservatives care about.

Regarding fiscal policy..."conservative" seems to have become syonomous with "anti-tax" rather than paying ones bills.

And I have a difficult time distinguishing between "corporatist" and "conservative" in terms of regulation and corporate matters. The whole concept of a corporation exisitng simply to make a profit would be a real shock to the founding fathers.

And where are the "real conservatives" on the republican plan for health care reform? Trashing states rights on lawsuit damages and trashing states rights on insurance regulations is hardly "real conservative".

So...the reality appears to be that this country is made up of a very few "real conservatives"...a fair number of "religious conservatives"...and a bunch of liberals?

Well dizzykat it's true that the right usually has a more violent rhetoric, but in the end it's all just rhetoric, just more them-and-us talk. Right wingers aren't usually violent, Roeder is an exception. Just like the Earth Liberation Front is a left wing exception.

People like Rush and Bill O'Reilly may be more mainstream (I hadn't heard of the other two), but I see them being made fun of a lot more than I see them being taken seriously. I think most of thier supporters are probably the old folks who don't get out enough to know better than to listen to them.

About the people taking guns to rallys and the "unarmed this time" signs, they're just making a point. No one has actually been shot by one of these people, it's just that one of the right's standard talking points is how it is thier right to own a gun, so they bring a gun.

Jeremy, funny, very funny. Thanks! I think we all needed a laugh!

It really gets me how the Catholics & Other Religion talk about what Jesus would do... But do the complete opposite...

It reminds me of the Jews that suppose to live by the 10 commandments... But when it comes doing business with them they do what they want doing business...

Then you have the Muslims, Asians & Communist that try to force Their beliefs on other People...

I don't care what your belief is... But do what your suppose to do... Not what you think you can get away with by doing it!!!

To Me all People are GODS Children... As long as You respect Me & My Religion & Rights... I will respect You... It's to bad every one doesn't live by that!!!

Are all you guys in the same room or something?

It's called cyberspace, Tony. Welcome to it. Pull up a chair. A waittress will be around to take your drink order shortly.

Kind of like saying a liberal is PRO-Abortion, most aren't, most are pro-choice.

As long as you agree with theirchoice.. LIBERALS are always trying to tell you they are Pro-Choice, My ass they are.. They dont want any choices other than the choices they force on us. I want the choice not to support their welfare healthcare program with my tax dollars.. Why is it some people get better deals than other Americans? Again it is a liberal choice to set up privileges for some like UNIONS and welfare victims in this Healthcare program they are shoving down our throats..

The look on his face is so scary. The crazy man is so confident and certain that he's the hero in this.

Right Clotho, just like the one we see on Dick Cheney's face all the time.

...Or the one that we see on Nancy Pelosi's face all the time:

http://tsfiles.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/nancy-pelosi.jpg

http://lonelysandpiper.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/pelosi3.jpg

LOL...only a mother could love that face...a gorilla mother!

Clotho..He could probably use a good lawyer. ....interested?

So, are you saying that the doctors murdering unborn children should be put to death? Or is it just the adults that count?

Thats not the current law moron

Nobody is "murdering" unborn children. Abortion is legal in this country. Unless that changes, the only one who broke any laws was Roeder.

Abortion is legal in the US. If not, the doctor would be in jail. Imagine what would happen if we all decide that laws should be individually defined, and then actions taken accordingly.

With that kind of thinking, I can see why people would want guns to protect themselves. Rules of the law does not matter, only my law. And I have the means to enforce it.

Ironically named "common sense": If fetuses were human beings, your argument would hold water. It is human beings that count. Your opinion to the contrary is just that.

Common Sense,

Laws are developed by the Courts not by individual people. Abortion is a legal procedure murder is not. If you feel the law is wrong then work to change it but do not call a legal procedure murder. By you even stating that the Doctors are murdering unborn children you are supporting these idiots that have and could act on that impulse.

Dave,

To the Christofascists, fetuses are the ONLY ones who count. Once they are born, they're on their own.

Common Sence: What I believe is that it is up to GOD to deside whether it's right are wrong... Not the Church are any one else...

As long as you don't break GODS Rules you don't have to worry... The 10 commandments is GODS rules... If you live by that your alright!!!

Guess the 10 commandments didnt require you to learn to spell and put sentences together that make sense? You make good loving Christians look bad, no wonder people hate us. MY GOD is loving, forgiving, accepting, caring. GOD does not only love Christians...he loves ALL his people...duh Jesus was a jew....You think because one sins GOD is through with them? If your child does wrong do you condemn them? Do you love them any less? ALL people sin and no one is greater than the other and God knew this, that is why he gave his ONLY son for OUR sins. So why are you judging(breaking gods rules) those who sin as if you yourself dont do the same? To each his own and if you really believe that GOD is the only one who decides let those people do what they want...for they are the ones who will have to give their account to GOD not you or anyone else.

HA! He would fit in well in Afganistan ... A fundamentalist terrorist...different book...different geography...different issue... but it is the same extremist nuttyness

I know a way to save the Tax Payers a lot of money... Send all the Criminals in Prison to Afghanistan & let them fight for Our Country... That way if they die... It is no lose!!!

Agreed wholeheartedly, with one clarification:

Unless the law is changed, those harming or harassing those in abortion clinics - patients or doctors - anti-abortion activists should realize that they do do at the risk of death or life in prison.

Even if the law were changed, people should still be penalized for harassing, harming or killing abortion providers. If abortion is made a crime, then it is for the police to deal with, and civilian nutjobs should, in that nightmare scenario as now, butt the hell out of other people's business.

This crime falls squarely in the realm of a Hate Crime and as such, deserves the death penalty.

Just think of how many lives Mr. Roeder saved by only killing one murderer.

No children are alive today because Dr. Tiller was not available to terminate those pregnancies. Several may have been born without brains or kidneys and the costs of keeping them alive for a few hours brankrupted their parents. Many innocent pregnant women would have died, but other brave doctors have stepped forward to take Dr. Tiller's place.

Fox news is not a good place to learn anything about obstetrics.

The real question is... How many more unwanted Children do we really need in this World??? Take care of the ones We have already... Before You bring into This World are Country!!!

lmk02: That is the issue, all right. Funny how the righties want to outlaw abortion (and many of them birth control), yet you don't see any of them proposing to take care of all the unwanted children they would bring into the world. You'll end up with young criminals, broke and bitter single mothers, and a horrendous drain on society, all of which is fine with the righties, as long as they have someone to blame for it. Then they have the brass to claim they know what's right for the country and the world. Sad that anyone votes for these slimeballs any more.

Fly this: Tiller the killer killed six-thousand.

Bruce,

I was a Marine door gunner are you going to say the same thing about me?

The militant evangelicals and other fundamentalist religious leaders who spew the vilest of hate speech against Pro-Choice reproductive rights doctors and their patients are the enablers, motivators and de facto sponsors of those on the fringe who actually perpetrate the physical and mental acts of terror against them.

When the likes of Scott Roeder and Eric Rudolph act out their violent “soldiers of god” fantasies, Randall Terry of Operation Rescue and the other verbal enablers like Bill O'Rielly who have promoted the justification dodge of doing such acts “in god’s name” should be held as co-conspirators in any crimes these nut jobs commit.

Should we add your name to the list of "doctor-killer enablers" there Bruce?

"No one is Pro-Abortion" B.Obama

Even if the Doctor does... What right does He have to stop Him from doing it???

G.H. No one is comparing innocent children to to soldiers but you. the LAW and biology state that these are not children but simply a collection of cells. So the Doctor did not kill ANYONE no matter how oyu twist it.

And for those who claim that the dead featus should be counted as murder and who ahve forced this stupid law on a few states I simply ask you this, after a still birth should the grieving mother be charged with homocide or just manslaughter since she is responsible for the life of the child inside her?

Deadly force may be used to stop crimes like rape or kidnapping, even if the victim's life is not in immediate danger. Logical extension of that principle dictates that deadly force may be used to stop the use of a woman's vagina or uterus against her will by zygotes, embryos or fetuses as well. Even if they are thought to be human beings, they cannot have special rights or privileges that real human beings do not. Deadly force may be used to stop even the mentally retarded who do not have the capacity to understand their crimes. Zygotes, embryos or fetuses may be called babies, but they cannot be innocent if they are using a woman's vagina or uterus without her consent.

but they cannot be innocent if they are using a woman's vagina or uterus without her consent.

Or if they were put there without her consent.

lol nicely put Red!

Jared, that's just ridiculous! You KNOW it's ridiculous and just don't care! Condoms are only effective 97ish% of the time. Birth control pills are not perfect either. The "rhythm method" certainly hasn't shown a high degree of preventive capability.

You think only people who intend to get pregnant should engage in sex. Amazing.

Considering she alone is responsible for them being there, it can't exactly be against her will.

So you, jared, believe that sex and pregnancy is the woman's responsibility because according to you women are good for nothing other than making babies, and you, jared, don't believe in rape.

I think both of them should be charged for provocation of murder.

There's much more disgusting stuff out there Karen, you're not trying. Killing babies for a living is also pretty disgusting. Seems to me that Dr tiller was a very late term abortion. I think Roeder his guilty of practicing without a license.

On a side note, what was Tiller doing in a church? I don't believe in god, but if there is one, it certainly wouldn't have approved. Abortion is a sad sad thing.

wow, rocketfan - you don't believe in god, but you purport to speak for it anyway. You make Roeder look sane and stable. You even adopt the religionists' BS argument that fetuses are "babies." If a fetus is a baby, an acorn is an oak tree. Better eradicate squirrels for all that deforestation.

Late term abortion is a necessary "evil". As bad as it sounds, letting an unviable fetus or one who is killing it's host (mom), continue to it's invitable end, could be called medical malpractice.

Social pressure against doctors who need to perform these necessarity "evils", is actually an evil act in itself. Judging people without facts is never a valid act.

Dave in NM

Good point. The distinction between fetus and baby is an important one. If a fetus is a baby and has the same rights as a baby, then babies and children should have the same rights as adults.

The argument that fetuses and babies are the same and should have the same rights is invalid on its face. Babies or anyone under the age of 18 years old from date of birth does not have the same rights as adults. Therefore, fetuses do not have the same rights as babies. It's really very simple. But religious fanatics like to skew reality to fit their idealism.

How about a guy that calls himself a doctor and kills six thousand?

he should be called the terminator

When you've saved the lives of six thousand innocent women that nobody else could help, get back to us.

REDaly: You beat me to it. Dr. Tiller improved people's lives. Roeder is a monster and deserves to die.

GH: Every woman I've known who has had an abortion regarded it the same way: it was regrettable but necessary, difficult but preferable to having to raise an unwanted child at an impossible time. Most have gone on to have healthy, happy families when their circumstances were appropriate to bring a child into. So I have basically done what you suggest, and their experiences have solidified my conviction that they are to be understood and cared for, not labeled criminals and forced to have dangerous illegal procedures (which each and every one of them would have done). I do not speak from ignorance.

As for REDaily's point, it is my understanding that Dr. Tiller had performed abortions on approximately 6,000 women, thereby saving them the horrible consequences of unwanted children. I imagine many of them have gone on to have healthy, happy families too, once they were able.

Dr. Tiller specialized in performing late term abortions in cases of rape, incest, severe fetal deformities incompatable with life outside the womb and cases of serious risk of permanent damage to the health or life of the mother, on referals from other doctors unwilling or unable to perfor, the procedures and after a second independant doctor agreed to the need. He often flew poor women and their families in to his clinic from all over the country at his own expense and put them up locally.

What's disgusting and horrible is that so many things go so seriously wrong with pregnancies, and when they do, innocent women have to travel across the country to for medical treatment because so few doctors and clinics are willing to do what's necessary to save them.

Wow, GH - you presume to comment on the "morals" of people you don't know, then utterly ignore a post with facts you can't refute. Let me guess: Republican?

Is that all you can find discussing??? Killing A Doctor for doing His Job is more discussing!!!

The BS about causing a miscarriage being manslaughter is just another of the right's attempts to outlaw abortion through the back door, when they can't accomplish it legitimately. Don't make the mistake of acting like it's a part of the same body of laws that holds that abortion is legal. It's not. It's just more slimy right-wing BS politics.

for one i am not a right wing nut as all you left wing nuts on here are. i just believe that there needs to be a definiton that is universal. how can something be a human with rights for one instance but not in another? makes no sense. like i said earlier i believe in the right to have an abortion. just dont agree with double standards to suit whatever agenda is being put forth......the definition needs to be universal....and no dont condone male bashing of women so dont go there either. my stance is not right wing or left wing......its libertarian....and as soon as people get off the stance of right vs left this country will be better off. why dont you investigate what the libertarian party stands for before you spout off with your biased thoughts.

It is easy, James. You simply have to be born, and live.

James-

Welcome to Politics 101. Libertarians are just conservatives who want to smoke pot and get laid.

Please don't overlook a critical distinction: the woman makes an informed choice in the voluntary abortion case; but is the victim of a battery in the feticide case (i.e., she did not choose to be assaulted). The right of privacy and autonomy of the woman and her family is often ignored.

Also, I believe Dr. Tiller performed late term abortions only on fetusees with extremely serious genetic defects that were either incompatible with life outside the womb or would only provide for a brief life full of suffering. No one seems to make this critical point very often. I don't envy any family in that difficult position, and I can't believe there are so many ignorant, intolerant, people out there lacking compassion and understanding for these families. I think that the public should stay out of the business of these families and their doctors.

the ignorance on this forum is amazing. and no ed and nite not the defintion. actually libertarians have many of same social values as liberals just dont believe in the nanny state. we prefer to take responsiblity for our own lives and not blame others or have others control it......its easy to not take responsibility if things go bad if you can blame the government right? yes lets give the government more power......the thought process of those who want the government to have more power is beyond me. I just dont understand it....and i know i know its for the good of the whole...but hitler stated same thing. have a good day people...time for me to go and smoke pot and get laid while i make millions in the free market

peace

ok regardless of choice patinca it is either a life or not....doesnt depend on circumstances......are you really justifying the bias in this? wow.

James, our society has graduated standards in many aspects of live - in some states you can't drink booze until you're 21, others 18. With abortion it's a balancing test, weighing the rights of the mother against those of a fetus. With the third trimester abortions Tiller specialized in, those rights generally favor the fetus....which should tell you something about what really went on in Tiller's practice.

If any of the anti-choice wingnuts here would bother to read Kansas' abortion law, they'd realize that Dr. Tiller was providing a much-needed service. Kansas ONLY permits late-term abortions in the case of a non-viable fetus, to protect the life of the mother, or if the fetus has severe life-threatening defects (e.g., no brain). In almost all cases, these were women who wanted a child but something went horribly wrong with the pregnancy. And in all these cases the opinion of a second doctor was required before the abortion was permitted. Several grand jury investigations of Tiller had found him to be fully compliant with Kansas law.

It's absolutists and fundamentalist terrorists like Roeder and al-Qaeda who are the problem...people unwilling to compromise, yet are determined to force their own twisted beliefs on everyone else.

I hear you James and I appreciate what you are saying -- but as Skrekk noted, we make legal distinctions, based on things like public policy, societal/individual values, etc. (e.g. balancing interests like a individual's right to autonomy and privacy against various governmental/societal interests) -- and then, against that backdrop, we create law, including statutes, delineating what kinds of acts our society chooses to define as "crimes." That's why a woman's privacy/autonomy/consent interest is relevant.

Circumstances always matter. If I take a legal shot while hunting or at a target range and a ricochet accidentally kills someone, that's very different from lying in wait to murder someone for profit. A pregnant woman looking forward to giving birth who is assaulted and has a miscarriage can't be confused with one who's life is in danger because of her pregnancy and has to terminate it to live. Claiming it's the same fetus and just as dead is simple-minded.

Thanks REDaly - excellent and clear example!

Either way, 18.10 is talking about the rights of the prospective mother, which is irrelevant to the "rights" of the fetus. The mother has been doubly harmed by being injured herself and losing the expectation of a (presumably wanted) child, but none of that confers rights on the fetus.

If the Doctor has a choice whether The Mother Should Live Are Die... Of Course The Mothers Life is important... If the Mother Dies so does the Child... So why take two lies to try to save a unborn baby??? I know the Doctor knows what best more than the Church & People against it!!!

Yes. I do understand the word David. It is, after all, my name. Your post really deserves no more than a smartass comment on your poor writing. All you said is "my opinion is fact." Yawn.

Killing a person is murder. A fetus does not become a person until it takes a breath. Only fundamentalists (Christofascists) say otherwise. The rest of the world knows the difference.

Wow Ed, you're just dripping with hateful comments today, aren't you?

I guess a beating heart, a brain, or even their DNA doesn't make fetuses human either?

And there you go calling Christians "christofascists" again. Just because other people don't have the same beliefs as you, you have to go and mock them? Mature.

As I stated before the fetus(unborn baby )is growing so it is living ,if it wasn't living it would not be growing and since it has human DNA and is growing and living that makes it a living human being,that is not religious ranting it is a scientific fact.

You're confusing the adjective "human" meaing "having human-like properties" with the noun "human" meaning "a human being." Tonsils, tumors and egg cells are all alive and human, but they aren't human beings.

Abortions were legal and common in Colonial America. What did our founding fathers have to say against them? Absolutely nothing. Learn some history from sources better than Fox News.

That means if a boy or Girl master bates... That He is killing a Child right???

So what did our Founding Fathers have to say about abortion and the "rights" of fetuses? Absolutely nothing.

I guess a beating heart, a brain, or even their DNA doesn't make fetuses human either? (19.2)

As I stated before the fetus(unborn baby )is growing so it is living ,if it wasn't living it would not be growing and since it has human DNA and is growing and living that makes it a living human being,that is not religious ranting it is a scientific fact. (19.3)

What you are explaining are just potentials for human life. A fetus is in all actuality a parasite with "human" DNA . It grows by feeding off it's host through the umbilical cord. Just because it has a brain & heart does NOT make it functional as most babies are born with brains & all their other vital organs (there are exceptions). In NYS, the age of viability is 24 wks & just because the fetus may make it that far does NOT guarantee life once outside the uterus. The health implications are staggering for these babies if they even survive their birth. BTW, a miscarriage by medical terms is "Spontaneous Abortion". I may be catholic RN, but I believe that once the fetus takes it's first breath & lives is when that fetus metamorphoses into a living viable human being. I like the acorn/nut comparison too. A caterpillar is a caterpillar & not a butterfly until it completes/survives its metamorphosis. Why is it that the people I see outside abortion clinics don't have anything else to do but wave signs & judge/threaten people (who are they to judge anyway?) are not out there instead working with abused children, battered women shelters, foster parenting, foster grand-parenting or doing anything to benefit the human community that's out there instead of the potential life? Have you ever had your heart torn apart by personally witnessing what one living "human" being can do to another living human being, especially a profoundly abused child? Have you ever held the hand of a woman who's delivering a stillborn who's heart was beating throughout pregnancy thanks to the umbilical cord but yet does not have the brain/brain capacity to sustain life once in outside world? Was she wrong for terminating the pregnancy? Who are these people that they think that they can judge people/MDs who help these people - why do they think they are God? Do they really think their condemnation of others will get them closer to God when they die or will they be judged appropriately & harshly for this by the "real" God? The choice to host the fetus is the mother's, it is a difficult one no matter the circumstances & she should be allowed to make it with legal medical assistance if she so decides.

G-O-P

Palin

FOX noise

The murderer isn't.

Exactly.

S: (n) terrorism, act of terrorism, terrorist act (the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear)

Pretty cut and dry to me.

nomoregames - that definition pretty much defines Roeder perfectly!

Did anyone ever figurer... If killing a Fetus is Murder... Then War is Murder... If thats true... Then the Catholic Church killed People for Their religion Belief!!!

Tillers family maybe... his church... probably most of Wichita... and everyone else who has commented on this board. Including you. If you dont care, why did you even click on the article?