They hold on to it because many do not know any better, and for some they hold on to it because they wish to pick and choose verses out of context in which to use to hurt others. Now with that said their was another reason why Christ came he came to live in the human world he came because it was impossible for man to obey all the laws of god at all times and so he came to forge the foundation of a new covenant between god and humanity through his death.

What are you talking about? Matthew 5:17-18 Jesus says "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Also, if you are referring to Leviticus' mention of homosexuality as not true because it's in the Old Testament, well 1 Corinthians 6:9 says "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders ¹⁰nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Get over it. God did not stop speaking when the last word of the Bible was written. Gays are here, always have been and always will be.

What a crock of schitt.

Here we go again, John....Drag out Leviticus and dust it off....then explain to me why eating pork or shellfish is "an abomination" in the SAME chapter...along with all the other "goodies" we so blithly turn a blind eye to, and explain why one is adhered to and NOT the others.

If you can't do that...then what is your malfunction?!

Tell you what I have learned by observing some of our "illustrious leaders", (both political and theological) who condemned homosexuality, and then got caught engaging in it....

Those who condemn the "sin" the loudest, are the ones who crave it the most.

I'm straight to the bone...guess that's why I don't have a problem with gays, et al.

I also inderstand Christ's love, don't presume to know the will of G-d, and I work very hard at not judging....but to some, it seems to come with disquieting ease.

"It's not that we don't acknowledge the reality of sin. It's not a sin to be gay or act in accordance with your nature."

I guess he knows better than God what is a sin and what is not.

1 Corinthians 6: 9-10

And Corinthians was written by Paul, not Jesus. And last I checked Paul was human.

Human and had his own set of issues, too, Rygar. Amazing how things twist and twist over the years to suit the need.

Exactly, Paul sounds like the ancient equivalent of a Pat Robertson, Rick Warren, or <insert religious fundi here>.

Last I checked they all have different stories, but claims God speaks to them.

Good point, Rygar. The other point is that folk actually believe them, just like they believed Paul.

Ah so God will smite me to hell for eating lobster at Red Lobster because I broke a rule?

We lay too much in God's lap. Not so much into the smiting thing. Giggle!

Great analogy, Rygar....I don't think you are going to hell for eating lobster, (LOL),and I don't think gays are going to hell either, unless they are evil and hurt others...especially people they don't know and have no business causing them pain and heartbreak...

I think a special hell is reserved for hypocrites, though.

So, let's go have some BBQ ribs and Scampi, and try to keep our thoughts clean!

Didn't Paul also come out with some pretty mysogynistic sounding stuff, too? As a woman who left behind some of that controlling, sexist doctrine behind, I can somewhat identify with gay Christians who have felt marginalized and left out of having their spiritual needs met. The doctrines of MAN nearly drove me away from the love of Christ, not Christ himself. It took me a long time to come back to God and when I did, it was to find I was loved and treasured and valued exactly as God created me, a woman. It pains me to think some homosexuals who could benefit so much from a relationship with God are driven away by flawed, sinning people who aren't any more pure than the people they are condemning. IF homosexuality is indeed a sin in the eyes of God, let God himself convey that to his people. Isn't that how it's supposed to work? A person becomes a Christian, develops a relationship with God, facilitated by the Holy Spirit, and becomes aware of their own sins in their own good time and with God's help, learns to part ways with their sin. Not by other Christians beating them about the head with scripture. That's not what Christian fellowship is supposed to be about. That's not fellowship, that's one-upsmanship. We ALL have sinned and fallen short. That's why Jesus came down here. Duh!

there are still rules.

Yup there sure are. Oops wait, there's really only one rule left, at least according to Jesus.

Galations 5:14 KJV (and repeated elsewhere)

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

If a person doesn't love himself/herself it's hard to love one's neighbor as oneself. Think about it.

You can call yourself anything. It does not make you a evangelist. It does not make you one. When you stand for something that the group does not believe in.

JustLittleOldMe...I can't tell you enough how much I appreciate your post. You have hit the nail on the head. BAM!!!!

So much hatred coming out of a book that was to supposed inspire us to greater things, but has been used as a political weapon of subjugation, instead. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm just sorry I can't give you more than one vote.

GOD is not a pervert .....his Love was procreation with Love.......

let's go have some BBQ ribs and Scampi, and try to keep our thoughts clean!

Consider me there!!

I'm with you Just Little Old Me. The last time I checked my bookshelf, the book of life wasn't among the books. Christ's commandment to me is to love others as I love my self. I'm not perfect at it but I try.

I didn't recall anything Christ said about hating someone, because of their sexual orientation when I read my bible.

Understand God does not think logically. We are mortal, He is not. We will never be able to comprehend His knowledge or power. When Humans try to justify their pleasures even though Gods word condemns it, this is a great sin, because we have not repented. Now, by know means am I a saint. We all have vices. I believe true homosexualiuty is a gene that one must overcome.

You know, if those verses from I Corinthians that a couple of people quoted are true, then I don't know too many people who AREN'T going to hell.

And count me in on the BBQ and Scampi!

Isn't it interesting that whenever you disagree with someone's opinion or action, you are called "hateful"? I personally am shocked that there are so many folks here who can call themselves believers but are so completely unknowledgeable about the message of the Bible. Now...if I say this, am I being hateful?! No...just stating my view.

There might be some disagreements about end times doctrine because it something that is presented in a prophetic manner, full of symbols not easily interpreted. However, that cannot be said about what the scripture teaches about sexual behavior--whether is homosexual behavior, promiscuity, adultery or other forms of prurience, the teachings are direct, clear and to the point.

If preachers teach one thing and do another, does that change the directive?No. I am speaking to believers--if we believe God is our maker, than we believe He has the authority and right to guide us about the right and wrong ways to use our "temple" (bodies)--much in the same way a car maker can write a manual telling us "don't use juice in the gas tank" or "don't drive in the water." We can disregard the manual, make excuses as to why we shouldn't follow it (it's written by people, it's full of errors, or we know better, or the car creator didn't really mean it, or surely the car creator didn't mean to be hateful and ruin our fun) but if we do, the car won't work the way it was intended and will have many problems and maybe even breakdown.

You know, just because we have an "urge" to behave in a certain way, does not mean we were created to live that way. The bible also teaches some urges are not feelings that He created in us, but rather are the result of sin entering the world at the Fall of man. I am speaking to believers here. For those who accept the scriptures as divinely inspired and given to men to write down for us, we know that some of those urges NOT created by God are things we are to fight against, not give into. Things such as the urge to murder, and the urge to steal and the urge to desire things that aren't ours (such as our neighbor's wife) and the urge to sexual behavior outside the Creator's plan (homosexuality, promiscuity, etc.) are things we are not to give into. To say that does not mean we don't love sinners because we all stray at times. But we encourage each other to live according to His word, and know that He in His love will help and enable us to do so by the power of the Holy Spirit. It's not always easy, especially when we've made a habit of giving into unholy desires, but His power is great and miraculous and His love is healing.

Corinthians, 6:9

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders.

Gays are not the only ones that will never inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. The whores of this world, fornicators and adulterers will feel His judgement. Understand if a person does not repent, that soul will burn. When God looks at us we are terrible sinners, sin he can not tolerate. However, the blood of Christ, the ultimate sacrifice has payed the debt of our sins. WOW, talk about a pardon we shall receive. All we have to do is live in accordance to his word, belive Jesus died on the cross for our transgressions. Not and easy concept but very possible thanks to the Holy Spirit.

One; Jesus came to fulfill the law given in the Old Testament. Two; the Old Testament is full of prophecies pertaining to Jesus. Three; whenever Jesus taught in the Synagogue he was teaching from the Old Testament, the New Testament had not been written yet.

The Old Testament and the New Testament do not contradict each other.

The flawed human actions in the Old Testament, are exactly that Flawed Human Actions.

One of the functions of the Old Testament is that of History; it told the history of the Israelites, their victories and their failures.

And as far as homosexuality goes; it is not the only sin that keeps us separated from the Lord. Lies, Malice, Gossip, Adultery, spite, unforgiveness, just to name a few. All sin separates us from the Lord and salvation; and Jesus came to pay the price for our sin, any sin we as people have and will committed. Why do people have to zero in on homosexuality?

The Gospel message is not bad news it is good news; we can be removed and forgiven from our sin because of the willing sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

The Gospel is only bad news if you are unwilling to repent from your sin.

If a person doesn't love himself/herself it's hard to love one's neighbor as oneself. Think about it.

It's flat out impossible. Love you first. Be compassionate with you, honest with you, forgiving of you, generous with you. Then do the same for all others as you continue to love you. That is ALL of the law. The ONLY ONE who says more or less than that is the Deceiver.

There is no "bad news" Gospel, only good news. Even if someone doesn't "repent" they only thing they would have to worry about is facing God on judgment day, nothing more, nothing less. And for the record, Jesus' sacrifice is for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD" not just those who believe! I've never read in any place in the scriptures where it says that "ONLY" believers will inherit the kingdom of God or "ONLY" believers will be saved and that's because it doesn't say it anywhere. "ALL WILL BE SAVED" and God will be "ALL IN ALL"! We all have to face punishment and just because you plead the blood of Jesus over your life doesn't mean that your exempt from punishment because all of our "WORKS WILL BE TRIED BY FIRE"....Everyone! The Gospel is called the good news for a reason, and its because, once again, "ALL WILL BE SAVED".

Now, I believe in Jesus Christ, but I can't stand Christianity and for reasons such as these discussions. People cherry pick what they want to believe from the scriptures and use it to enforce their will upon the human population. No one, I repeat, NO ONE, I'll say again, NO ONE knows the will of God! I have no idea how God will handle homosexuality, if its an issue at all with God. All I know is, I'm cool with whatever you choose or whatever chooses you! So count me in for that barbeque and scampi! Save ya boy a plate....me and Jesus! LOL!

Rygar " And Corinthians was written by Paul, not Jesus. And last I checked Paul was human."

Yes, Paul was human, but the scriptures are inspired by God, so even though Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, it was God's spirit that told him what to write.

2 Timothy 3:16

Of course, for people that don't believe in God, they are free to think and act as they please. For many such people, it makes perfect sense for them to lie, cheat, steal, even murder to further their selfish desires, since they think there is no one to answer to, unless they get caught.

PS - I enjoy an occasional lobster too, and see nothing wrong with it. Were you trying to make a point????

Ron1982 "I have no idea how God will handle homosexuality, if its an issue at all with God."

Since God's inspired word clearly says that homosexuals will NOT inherit God's kingdom ( 1 Corinthians 6:9, 10), I suspect that God has already decided that it is indeed an "issue" with Him.

As for people that practice sin willfully after having received accurate knowledge of the truth, Jesus sacrifice can no longer benefit them. Hebrews 10:26,27

It's unfortunate that some people think it's acceptable to deliberately disobey God's word and still think they are Christians. They should just stop their hypocrisy and admit that they really don't care what God says, and be done with the pretenses, since the only one they are fooling is themselves.

Good night.

Ron read the Bible it does say only people who believe will be saved. John 1:12 said that as many as RECEIVED he gave them the right to become a child of God, to those who BELIEVE ON HIS NAME. John 3:16 said for God so loved the world that HE gave his only begotten Son , that whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM will not perish but have everlasting life. Now the scripture you are trying to quote saying Christ is all and all was speaking about Christ being all in all in the body of Christ (among true Christians). Everyone is not a child of God. Jesus himself called the Pharisees and the Jews who did not believe in Him children of the devil. You are very wrong for posting that all will be saved. You wrong for claiming to be a Christian and you don’t know the Bible.

Now the Bible is God's will given to men, the Bible is given under inspiration of God, 2 Timothy 3:16. How can The Rev. Mark Tidd say that it is not a sin to be homosexual? What BIBLE IS HE READING LOL? Also the Bible never justify slavery, nowhere does God say go have slaves , He does tell master to treat their slaves right( we can go further on that topic later).

Rev Mark Tidd is a false teacher that’s no doubt. Homosexuality is label as sin not a way of life, and not a natural feeling read Romans the 1^st chapter. Yes you can love homosexuals, just like you love the murder, thief and unbeliever , because they are all in the same category unbelievers. They all need to come Christ ,and are more than welcome to attend church so they can know the truth and follow it. Jesus came for the spiritually sick.

The question is; can you openly practice sin and call yourself a Christians. Let me answer that for you NO you can’t. Jesus didn’t preach acceptance, he preach repentance and the kingdom of God. 1John 1:6 –If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. Now I can type a twenty page paper proving Gods word to be true, but people do not want truth. Especially when that truth exposes a lie they are following. The Old Testament does not contradict the New and only the Words of the Bible can be spiritually discern 1 Corinthians 2:14-But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God , for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.

If you are not a Christian I can understand if you want to make sin socially acceptable, but if you are a Christian it always Gods will and not your own. Now that’s being Christ-like Ron.

Know the real Jesus.

In love

PS - I enjoy an occasional lobster too, and see nothing wrong with it. Were you trying to make a point????

My point is that the same people who quote leviticus are often guilty of violating the same "rules" as they claim homosexuals are. For example, do you eat shellfish? Do you wear mixed fibers? Do you stone your children for being disobediant?

These are all part of Leviticus, but I doubt people follow them still. Even you said that you eat shell fish.

Yes, Paul was human, but the scriptures are inspired by God, so even though Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, it was God's spirit that told him what to write.

But qualifies as being inspired? Pat Robertson claims that god inspired him and gives him prophecies. Rev Rick Warren claims god speaks to him. Phelps claims to know Gods will and that god speaks to him. The list goes on and on, and with every person speaking contradictions of the others. So they claim they were inspired by god.

Also the bible wasn't finalized till the Council of Nicaea in 325. Here they rejected books that others had wrote because they could lead to heresy or were incorrect. So if the council decided that some of the books were not true. Then that leads to the conclusion that people were vying for power and claiming they were also inspired.

So who is to say that Paul wasn't one of the charlatans that actually succeeded in getting his words in that? Again I stand by my statement that Paul is nothing more than human. A human who is also infallible. And to put his words on par with Jesus (and the way he gets quoted, above Jesus) are committing the act of heresy.

Robesson:

On your first comment about contradictions between the New and Old testament, that's a lie. You are talking about something you don't know.

The truth is there is no contradiction whatsoever, all there is, is a different time dispensation.

In the Old testament, when the law was given (not only the 10 commandments, but 613 precepts and commandments in total) humanity was living in the Law Dispensation, now in the new Testament we are living in the Grace Dispensation.

I challenge you to an open Biblical debate on this issue.

I promiss you, If you are honest with yourself and have a heart for God, at the end you will recognize you are wrong and you will repent.

I'll be awaiting for your response.

A human who is also infallible

I meant to say fallible

Could you list me the contradictions?

Impossible because there aren't any contradictions!

Amazing on how so many are an authority on Gods word. How many have really spent hundreds if not thousands of hours researching the bible and its understanding than shoot from some knee jerk reaction. To those so learned about the eating behaviors in the old testament. Its the same advise given today IF THEY ARE NOT CLEANED. Same reason they were told to use running water in a brass bowel. Something we take for granted today to do. But back then they didn't know about germs. Hadn't been discovered yet.. Hmmm Imagine that? knowledge known of the unknown, Wonder how that happened.

As far as I'm concerned, if your a liar, a hater, a glutton, an adulterer, a homosexual, a fornicator, unless you repent of your ways, YOU WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD!!! So deal with it or make your own choice, When is all is said and done folks the only one you have to answer to is Almighty God. Our opinions BTW will not be asked.

@NONEYA: You said "I believe true homosexualiuty is a gene that one must overcome".

I have to ask, if the Bible said that being tall was an abomination, would tall people be expected to overcome their tall gene? If the Bible said that being dark skinned was immoral, would people with dark skin be expected to overcome that gene? If the Bible said that being left-handed was immoral, would left-handed people be expected to overcome that gene? Of course, any rational person knows that no one would ask anyone to try to change their height or their skin color or their left-handedness because of what is written in (today's) Bible because anyone with any degree of intelligence knows that those things are immutable characteristics. So why then does anyone who believes homosexuality is genetic also believe that it would be possible for a homosexual to overcome that gene?

For the record, I am gay. But I don't believe homosexuality is as simple as genes. A branch of genetics, called epigenetics, studies the effect that exposure to hormones has on whether or not a gene will be activated or not. Most scientists that study sexuality believe that epigenetics comes into play in whether we are heterosexual or homosexual. According to this theory, exposure to higher levels of testosterone in the womb shapes the hypothalamus (a portion of the brain that controls sexual arousal) to be attracted to women. Conversely, exposure to lower levels of testosterone while in the womb create a fetus that as an adult will be attracted to men. So, a genetic male who is not exposed to high enough levels of testosterone in the womb will have a brain that is 'programmed' for attraction to other men. Thus, sexuality is a combination of genetics and exposure in the womb to hormones or possibly even viruses or bacteria. (National Geographic does a better and more thorough job of explaining it than I can: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saO_RFWWVVA).

Ah so God will smite me to hell for eating lobster at Red Lobster because I broke a rule?

Lobster - cockroach of the sea.....

Jesus' sacrifice is for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD" not just those who believe! I've never read in any place in the scriptures where it says that "ONLY" believers will inherit the kingdom of God or "ONLY" believers will be saved and that's because it doesn't say it anywhere.

John 3:16

John 1:12 - "Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God--"

Scared of failing??? God didn't say you would go to hell for failing to try to do the right thing. But once you are aware of the correct rules, and choose not to try to follow them, then you are an unrepentant sinner and you have exchanged God for a "new God". Clearly, everything is a personal choice and decision.

Ever since man decided to invent his own religions and traditions moving away over the original Hebrew religion of the living God, homosexuality played a large part of those bastardized rituals, along with child sacrifice (related to abortion). The Baal religion is a good example. This originally started with man creating "man made" religions in ancient Egypt. I have recently read that the Pyramids and Spinx, along with other unrecreatable wonders in the world, were created by God and his angels as places for man to worship him. I will have to research more by check out Barry Smith, of New Zealand. No wonder the Nazi's, New Agers, and many other Satanically oriented religions through out history have tried to figure them out. As you read through the Old Testament, there is a continuing theme of God condeming the Israelites for straying away and becoming followers of these satanic oriented religions with homosexual priests, sacrificing children and bastardizing the original traditions and rules for the Hebrew religion. King David married many women from different lands who worshipped in these religions and brought them into his influence causing problems for David such as he wasn't allowed to build the Temple. His son did. God sent punishments to the Israeli's time and time for these actions. Since God's plan was to introduce a new covenant with man through the redeeming sacrifice of Jesus' blood through the cross, Satan's plan was to continually interfere with the genetical history of Jesus' blood line, down through history, so, God's plan for man could never manifest. The reason for the flood, as Noah's family was the only family on earth who's DNA was not infected with demon DNA, could continue the blood line undetered. Another time God had to "clean house" was when Baal worshipers had invaded and taken over the "promised land" while the Jews were stuck in Egypt as slaves. Satan had 400 years to invade and infect the land with Baal worshiper. God instructed the Jews to destroy all inhabitants, sometimes even the animals, before they could move in according to God's prophecy and plans a couple of times. God never just told the Israeli's to go in and wipe out a city for nothing. I'm sure I will get some heat for what I'm saying but it's very clear when you read, study and do word studies on the ancient Hebrew. The OT and NT are multilayered, connected books about God's plan for Jesus to come with the new covenant for man. Even the Jewish feasts were about the prophecy of Jesus and the new covenant. It's easy to go and pick out a story without reading the entire story and condemn. Someone mentioned Nicea, 390 AD, where the Bible we have today was cannonized. Did you every think how the over 1000 theologians came to choose what books would be included? They had to be about the new Covenant and "his-story". That is why Gnostic books couldn't be included. Gnostic books weren't inspired by God and weren't about the ongoing story of God's original plan for Jesus and man. Try reading a Bible where the books are placed chronologically placed.

As far as homosexuality goes, my motto is love the sinner, hate the sin. Jesus socialized with sinners and was condemned by the so called religious leaders of his day. I disagree with ministers and business owners who refuse to do business with or marry homo/lesb. I don't think that by marrying them or taking the pictures of the wedding means you are agreeing with their lifestyle, if it is the current law of the land. After all, murders and raptists buy groceries, get haircuts and pay taxes before they are caught. I don't see anyone returning the revenues. I don't think it is the right way to live. I often wonder if it is a "birth defect" of sorts, because how do you explain people born with both genitalia? Or people who feel wrong in the body they were born with? It may be something that some people have to deal with. Everyone has their "cross" to bare. But it's the choices you make because of those differences. And, miracles haven't stopped happening. I know that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit can change what happens in your heart and mind. Satan's rebellion and plan is to take as many people as he can to hell before his time is up. Confusion, fooling us, and substituting evil rituals opposite and opposed to the theology that God has provided for us is the best way Satan can fool us. Usually, it starts with something that seems benign. Because if you went into Satanisim with everything exposed upfront, he wouldn't have so many takers. But feeding you a bite at a time with justification that 'that didn't hurt did it or no one got hurt or knows", the more you go down the "wide" path, the more the blinders fit and your guilt falls aside. Then you have given permission to evil influence and all the ways it can affect your mind and body. This is a simplified version of the story. But remember that history isn't about us or world history, it's about "His-story". The story of him - Jesus. And, it's all your choice which way you go. But confession/repentance of your sins and belief in the deity of Christ, along with a new life style and you moving in the right direction.

Bart you absolutely nailed it. The concepts espoused by Christian doctrine are flat out ridiculous. If God is omnipotent and omniscient you don't have free will. It's a logical impossibility. Either God wants homosexuals doing what they do, or he's not omnipotent and omniscient, or the infinitely more likely scenario...he just doesn't exist.

As far as Biblical contradictions, one could write a book on them. The book is self contradictory, contradicts known history, has logical contradictions, creates logical paradoxes, contradicts science, contradicts the archaeological record, and on and on. Just because it's based in history it's taken as fact, but Homer's Odyssey is based in as accurate a historical setting only we don't go around worshipping Poseidon or sacrificing virgins before sea voyages. People need to put a little more thought into their religion, honest to goodness.

Ever since man decided to invent his own religions and traditions moving away over the original Hebrew religion of the living God

Original Hebrew religion? The Hebrew religion is not the first religion to ever exist.

Unless you are a Jehovah's Witness many of your "Christian" rituals and beliefs come from Pagans. Christmas, Easter, All Saints Day to name a few. The "Flood" you mention, and the birth and death of gods are both common themes in religions that predate Judaism.

Jesus' genealogy, if you believe in the immaculate conception, could only be traced through Mary, however the Bible seems to trace his genealogy through Joseph.

Which is it? Is God the father of Jesus via a human female, common theme in most ancient religions, and Joseph nothing more than a step-father or is Joseph the biological father through which Jesus' geneology can be traced and therefore the immaculate conception just a myth and Jesus no more the son of God than anyone else?

Matthew 1:6-16 and Luke 3:23-31 both trace Jesus' genealogy through Joseph , the only common name between these two genealogies.

Judaism, and more so Christianity, is nothing but a mish-mash of other religions that came before. The favorite, most common, practice of this Pagan religion added with the favorite, most common practices of others in order to lure as many people to their belief system as possible.

Christmas = Winter Solstice and/or Sun Worship

Easter = Rebirth of the fertility goddess Ester/Oester, a common spring myth/celebration in many religions pre-dating Christianity

All Saints Day = Samhain

Oh MAN they hate it when you confuse them with facts, Just!

Original Hebrew religion? The Hebrew religion is not the first religion to ever exist.

I think you need to Google this one. The oldest evidence of recorded Religion is the Dead Sea Scrollls..... pre dating the records of the Hindu Vedas.

Also, in responding to Amazons comments, I believe her statements about Orig. Hebrew Religion were refering to the consept of belief in only one God.

I could be wrong on that, what do you say Amazon... or are you out of the loop now?

The Dead Sea Scrolls date back to roughly around 200 B.C. to 68 A. and the Sacred Vedas date back to around to roughly 1500–1000 BCE, with the Rig Veda (Wisdom of the Versus) dating back to 1500 BC.

So the Sacred Vedas are older than the Dead Sea Scrolls.

But the oldest religion in the world isn't Hinduism or Judaism, it is the worship of the earth/moon animism, Shamanism. The woman was part of the Natufian culture, a group of hunter/gatherers who lived from 15,000 to about 11,500 years ago in the area that now includes Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.

Source:

http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/dead-sea-scrolls.htm

http://www.bib-arch.org/online-exclusives/dead-sea-scrolls-01.asp
http://www.religionfacts.com/hinduism/texts/vedas.htm
http://www.livescience.com/history/081103-shaman-grave.html

DROP THE LEVITICUS.............................

The NEW TESTAMENT is full of very explicit scripture that deals with sexual sin and how sleeping with another of the same sex is an abomination. It's all over the place. As for the shellfish, the New testament addresses that as well, reference Peter's vision on the rooftop about eating. People today do not have to obey the letter of the law because of Christ's work on the cross. Christianity is salvation by grace through faith, and it was because of the cross of Christ that we no longer are bound by the law of the Old Testament.

This notwithstanding, the New Testament again, is explicitly clear about sexual sin.

As for Rygar's claims about Paul, Paul was commissioned to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles by Christ himself, so that pretty much puts Paul's authority where Christian teaching is concerned in your face.

He wrote the majority of the New Testament, is arguably the greatest apostle of Christ who ever lived and went to his death praising the same Christ who commissioned him in the first place. The conversion and commissioning of Paul is probably the greatest story of salvation in history because Paul was the premiere persecutor of Christians of his day before his conversion, not to mention the fact that Paul was a Roman Citizen.

...church guided both by the Apostle's Creed and the belief that gay people can embrace their sexual orientation as God-given and seek fulfillment in committed same-sex relationships.

Why not, many churches allow bank loan officers to be members.

The book is self contradictory,

Show me where and please keep your quotes in context.

Matthew 1:6-16 and Luke 3:23-31 both trace Jesus' genealogy through Joseph , the only common name between these two genealogies.

That's because Matthew's genealogy is that of Joseph while Luke's is Mary's. Both were descendants of David.

Which is it? Is God the father of Jesus via a human female, common theme in most ancient religions, and Joseph nothing more than a step-father or is Joseph the biological father through which Jesus' geneology can be traced...

Genesis 3:15 and Isaiah 7:14 clearly state that the Messiah will be born of the "seed" of a woman.

Joseph is a step father.

n

Amen..

What would Jesus do? Judge others and make life a living hell for anyone not "Christian" just like his followers do.

Jesus judged no one. He was a man of peace, who happened to be more in touch with who he was than most of us ever will be.

It is evangelical Christians that have tainted the message that he tried to deliver.

Jesus will return to JUDGE the world.
BANK on it.
I keep hearing folks who like to "twist" the truth to fit their needs say "why would a loving God send anyone to hell?"
Why then would any man need God?? Just live your life to fit your needs, desires, etc. He won't care.
God gives you CHOICE between heaven and hell. Refuse to obey those laws...Commandments....Words of guidance AND suffer the consequences.
God CLEARLY states what happens when you steal, lie, murder, choose "alternative" lifestyles............Sin leads to DEATH!
I didn't say it, God, His apostles, and JESUS SAID it!

GaryL-749643

Jesus will return to JUDGE the world. BANK on it.

Just don't confuse faith with reality.

Interesting Gary, now when you say "twist" are you putting the King James version of the bible into there as well? After all it is well documented that he got a small group of scholars together to create a translation that fit his beliefs. And also words get misinterpreted, made up, moved around because one word in another language won't work in another lanaguage.

Also how will being gay lead to death?

Good points, all, Rygar.

God destroyed Sodom, the word sodomy came from this place. Being Gay is an abomination.

Leviticus 18:22: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them."

Sexual sins of any kind are considered "abominations" to the Lord.

Unless a union exist with the opposite sex, then all sexual activity is sin.

Jesus did not condemn sinners, but he did not allow people to continue to live in sin. He did call out people on the sin in their lives and gave them an opportunity to escape it.

How many times did Jesus say "Go and sin no more" or "Your sins are forgiven". Jesus came to give an escape from our sin, not to allow us to live in it.

Calling sin sin is not judging inappropriately, it is calling sin what it is.

Yes as christians we are not to judge others, but we must follow Christ example and not let sin be accepted.

Christ never turned anyone away, but he did ask them to turn from their sin.

The law said,

Sin leads to DEATH!

Jesus said, 'Fine, I'll die.'

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

And He was successful. The law that lead to death was satisfied. It's over. Why should He have done it if you still have to?

John 13:34
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Christians can believe whatever the hell they want. Those who would be Christ-like have a very clear pattern to follow. Short, but clear.

Yes as christians we are not to judge others, but we must follow Christ example and not let sin be accepted.

There's a problem with that statement....and here it is: Christians aren't the judge! There's ONLY one judge....one more time...There's ONLY ONE judge....again...THERE'S ONLY ONE JUDGE! Did you get the mystery! You christians ARE NOT Jesus, just because you follow his example and TRY to live your life like He did, doesn't make you any more a part of His judgement seat because last time I read (and I read every night) we ALL will stand before the judgement seat and how are you christians going to play defendent and judge...can't have it both ways. Love thy neighbor and thyself speaks volumes and thats the ONLY commandment that will help us all move along and advance society BUT leave to christians to think they know the will of God! We really don't know what "sin" embodies, because for all we know, maybe its sinful for you christians to to be telling everyone else what sin is...has that thought ever crossed your mind...I'm sure it hasn't! Love your neighbor as you love yourself; do the right thing because its the right thing to do...simple enough...and the wise part about all of that...watch this....it doesn't involve you knowing any personal information about anybody! (the crowd lets out a loud sweeping gasp....such wise sentiment!)

Christians can believe whatever the hell they want. Those who would be Christ-like have a very clear pattern to follow. Short, but clear.

Exactly David

I have a question to all those "Christians" who quote biblical passages all day. There are two people.

Person one goes to church every weekend and makes it's family go as well. It donates money to whatever church it goes to. When it goes to work on Monday they do their job and come home to their family. Then at the end of the day it goes onto forums and debates people saying how they are going to hell if they don't follow its version of the bible and its church teachings.

Person two doesn't go to church, but instead goes and helps various charities around their community. It then goes online and donates money to various other charities such as the Make a Wish Foundation, and other charities, some local and some national. However person two is gay and is in a committed relationship of five years. It does go onto forums and debates people such as person one and does its best not to judge even though it can be hard.

Now who is living a more Christ-like life? Person one or person two?

Yes as christians we are not to judge others, but we must follow Christ example and not let sin be accepted.

And not let WHO'S sin be accepted by WHOM? Each of us has authority over only our own lives and actions (of course we are to teach our children up to a point) and each of us is ultimately responsible to God for the choices we make.

1 Corinthians 5: 1-19

⁹I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— ¹⁰not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. ¹¹But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

¹²What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? ¹³God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm not unfamiliar with the bible and yet as you post that text I see that how directly that text promotes behavior that directly opposes Christ's example.

Fascinating, another example of Paul being at odds with Christ.

Ron, according to 1 Cor. 6:2 the saints will judge the world and also the Christians have the responsibility of warning those that live in sin to repent:

1 Cor. 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Ezekial 3:

¹⁸When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

¹⁹Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Noneya,

You really need a new version of the Bible if you believe the sins of Sodom was homosexuality.

Passages that mention the sins of Sodom:

Isaiah 1 - rebelling against God, lacking in knowledge, deserting the Lord, idolatry, engaging in meaningless religious ritual, being unjust and oppressive to others, being insensitive to the needs of widows and orphans, committing murder, accepting bribes

Sex and sexuality is not mentioned

Jeremiah 23:14 - among the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen something horrible: They commit adultery and live a lie. They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. They are all like Sodom to me; the people of Jerusalem are like Gomorrah

Sex and sexuality is not mentioned

Ezekeiel 16:49-50:"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen."

Sex and sexuality not mentioned

Matthew 10:14-15: the sin of Sodom was in-hospitality to strangers.

Luke 10:7-16: - same as Matthew above

2 Peter 6-8: - the people of Sodom were ungodly, unprincipled and lawless

Jude, Verse 7 -we finally see a reference to sex as the sin despite what Jesus and Ezekiel had to say. The original word Greek "sarkos heteras" can be translated as "other flesh". "Heteras" is the root word for heterosexual. These two words has seen many different translations, fornication, going after strange flesh, sexual immorality, perverted sensuality, homosexuality, lust of every kind, immoral acts and unnatural lust. From the looks of it translators were unsure of what these two words meant within the context of which they were used, therefore they just picked a sexual sin that best fir their point of view.

Since Angels are described in the Bible as a species of beings who were different from humans the sin of the people of Sodom would be that of bestiality. Makes more sense when compared to the the literal translation of "other flesh". After all humans are of the "same flesh", Eve being created from the body of Adam.

Jeremiah 49:18 -condemns the people of Jerusalem for their sexual sins and being like the people of Sodom but it does not specify what the sexual sin was.

Ezekiel 16:50 -refers to the citizens of Sodom as having "committed abomination", the Hebrew word "to'ebah", which truly means "ritually unclean" a poor translation at best. Besides there are numerous "to'ebah" mentioned throughout the OT in Leviticus alone. Which of the many "to'ebah" acts was referring to is not stated.

So out of the many passages that mentions Sodom and the sins of the people only one even directly references a sexual sin, Jude, but translating the words "sarkos heteras" ("other flesh") as homosexuality seems to be simply a matter of prejudice and bigotry.

a note on the story of Sodom ( and that's all it is in reality )

it has a group of angry men demanding the angels. if indeed this were sexual in nature and we can tend to view it as such seeing how Lot offered his daughters ( disgusting right there ) it is logical to note that that group of men be straight !

why ? it is gang rape they want to impose. not a show of sexuality but of hate and humiliation. 99.99% committed by straight men against other men and women .

they weren't homosexuals but straight men.

if in fact the story is true ... doubtful.

Lot offered his daughters ( disgusting right there )

Disgusting and hot!!

The angels thought so too, apparently, because they let Lot, the original kiddie proto-pornographer, live and killed everyone else. Jehovah can be one sick bastard sometimes.

So Dave and I are condemned eh? Oh well we didn't want to be in your version of heaven anyway. Hope you have a wonderfully fulfilling "Christian" experience. Jesus died for someones sins but not ours! We owe him and his followers nothing. Now get the hell out of our bedrooms and our constitution!

God does not like gays or lesbians? Do you really think God likes or dislikes people based on their sexual orientation? I would hope my God is deeper than that and more discerning than that. Personally, because I'm a Christian and try to keep my heart full of love--and not in spite of being a Christian, I'd rather enjoy the company of witty and intelligent people like Dave and Darren than people who only seem to liven up when they get the chance to tell other people they're "doin' it wrong" and are doomed to hell. Talk about making an eternity feel like an eternity. Yeah---keep company with that sort day in and day out. Heavenly. Not.

I think we all need to revisit the Bible and look at all the times Jesus lost his temper with people. What people did he lose his temper with? Prostitutes? No. Drunks? No. Adulterers? No. People possessed by devils? No? The Devil himself? Eh, not so much. As I recall, he got REALLY p'od with the hypocritical religious elders of his day. He likened them to whitewashed tombs, as I recall. Yes--the high, the mighty, the righteous pillars of the religious community who claimed to have all the answers and know it all and thus be able to judge it all--they were the only ones who got the Son of God spittin' mad. Them and the people conducting financial business on God's property. Kind of the Wall Street types of their time. So to me, the thing to avoid being at all costs is a money grubbing religious zealot!

Thanks, Just, great post and so be it.

Nice post JustLittleOldMe.

Jesus doesn't "dislike" anyone, though he does hate sin. Christ came to save all of us sinners from ourselves and our sin.

God hates sin, but he loves us, people, his creation.

tprranc - WRONG. The people who dislike gays and lesbians are the people who wrote the bible using their OWN personal agendas and used god as an excuse to justify their OWN issues. Until GOD himself can PERSONALLY attest to ANYTHING written in the bible, any SANE and LOGICAL person would have to assume that these men were as "inspired" in their writings as a psychopath is in their delusions. ANYONE can "claim" that god "inspired" them to say/do anything and the weak and feeble, ignorant and naive will believe it just because they are told to do so.

NONE of you ....I repeat....NONE OF YOU....actually KNOW if ANYTHING in the Bible was truly "inspired" by god or if there IS a god because you only have the words of MAN to go by and we all know that MAN has the capability of devising/creating ANYTHING he wants to promote an agenda.....hate, power, control, etc.

When your god shows up and PERSONALLY admits to everything he is SUPPOSED to have said....THEN, and ONLY then can you believe it's true. Until then....you're just the victims of a Bronze Aged mind game.

Would you christians please stop that 'love the sinner, hate the sin'. What a person brings forth from inside is what the person truly is. You have somehow separated a person from his actions. Therefore, in your belief a person who murders cannot be called a murderer??? Actions speak louder than words. To truly love someone means you accept them AS they are and don't try to change them. Your kind of 'love' is the word 'hate' painted in pastels!

"To truly love someone means you accept them AS they are and don't try to change them."

No, true love is that Christ died for our sins so that we may know Love who is God.

But as far as accepting people for who they are and not trying to change them, what about parents? Do you really think that a parent shows true love to a child when they see him doing something wrong and don't correct him?

"Hm, I see my child is going around the playground punching other kids in the face. Well, that's just who he is! I truly love him, so I'm not going to try to change his behavior!"

What kind of crap parent would that be? The parent loves the child and wants what's best for them. The parent who corrects their child is looking at the long-run, that their behavior is going to do them no good when they grow up. So a LOVING parent will discipline that child and tell them, even as the child whines and pouts and cries, that their behavior is unacceptable and will do them no good when they grow up.

Now replace "parent" with "God", and "long-run" and "grow up" with "eternal life". If a person wants to be a Christian we will accept them "as they are," sin and all, but we won't let them stay that way, because living in sin is not the Christian life.

1 Corinthians 5: 9-13

⁹I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— ¹⁰not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. ¹¹But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. ¹²What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? ¹³God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

Dave and Darren,

You are playing games with words. Jesus died for everyone's sins, including you and yours. Quit trying to twist the truth. All are welcome who are repentant and believe. You are trying to get justification to live guilt free. If you were so comfortable with your lifestyle then you would not be here trying to argue small matters and make believers the wrong ones. Why don't you just read the Bible, along with an ancient Hebrew dictionary and a Greek dictionary, along with a book about ancient Hebrew culture and Jewish culture in Jesus' time. Then, all your questions will be answered. I love you as a human being and want to see you in "my heaven". Now, respond in love or hate to me.

If you were so comfortable with your lifestyle then you would not be here trying to argue small matters and make believers the wrong ones.

Umm, don't look now but you're here too, Amazonbaby. Sorry you're so uncomfortable with your lifestyle!

You can't preach Gods word,if you don't FOLLOW it completely,and you don't conform to they way that you are supposed to preach it

Meh...too much work. I think I'll just try to live a good and honorable life and let the chips fall where they may. If God decides to get all jerky and cast me into the Pit of Eternal Fire, at least I'll meet lots of other nice, intelligent people as I writhe in endless agony (Dave and Darren will be there too, apparently). Besides, your Heaven sounds like it's full of tightassed douchebags.

What about the woman at the well? He told her everything she did (wrong), and she went to the towns people to tell them to come to see the "Messiah", who knows all things. It is all a choice...you choose this day, life or death. G_d never drags people in, they come willingly, give their hearts to the Savior. No, believe His word, change, all we have is today, tomorrow may be too late.

G_d never drags people in, they come willingly, give their hearts to the Savior.

Since when, in the scriptures, does Jesus EVER say, that people can come to Him "willingly"? Don't worry, I'll wait..........time up: ready for the answer: okay here it goes....watch this slammin' knowledge I'm about to drop on the people on Newsvine....wait for it.....Jesus NEVER said it! Want proof from the scriptures: Jesus to His disciples: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you"..."whom the Son chooses"! Well, that pretty much sums it up. I think I'll take Jesus' words over your christian doctrine any day. So even if tomorrow is too late for some people, I wouldn't worry about that too much, they will be peacefully resting in the ground away from all you bible thumpers and misinterpreters of the scriptures (not in heaven or some fabled "hell") and eventually "ALL WILL BE SAVED" and God will be "ALL IN ALL"!

Perhaps Jesus was talking about the Disciples he had choosen to work with him. Why, then, did he say, "behold, I stand at the door (your heart) and knock and if anyone lets me in..etc.. You are taking parts of verses out of context to make your point. Where did you get the idea that it's too late for anyone? Well, if they die without making the right choice, then it would be too late. Your response shows you are writing in reaction and anger. Plus, you didn't cite the verse/book of the half verses that you used for examples nor what the conversation was before and after. Do you believe in pre-destiny? If you don't believe in hell, then what is it about Christianity that you believe in? What was Jesus' reason for leaving heaven, turning into a man, taking on the world's sins for our forgiveness, going to hell, and then coming back to life? If there's no hell, then why would he fullfill prophecy from the OT and NT? And, return to heaven until his second coming? You aren't making much sense.

More accurately, they do not acknowledge gays, which in a way is worse. The gay person cannot really be who they are in the church.

Well the Catechism of the Catholic church states that it isn't a sin to be gay, but the sin comes when you act on the feelings. So the Catholic church calls all those who are homosexual to a life of celibacy.

So it is ok being gay, but to love someone is to sin. One of the major reasons I left Catholicism and organized religion behind.

Jesus would execute no one.

Death would be better than living in Uganda.

human beings are spirit, soul and body. every human has desires, lusts and pride. gay people seem to be proud of being gay. why? are you proud of being a human? GOD hates sin Prov 7:1, He is Holy and as followers of HIM we are commanded to be holy 1peter 1:14,15. The ONLY way a human, any human can be holy is through the acceptance of GODS gift HIS SON JESUS. JESUS is the example of someone who pleases GOD. JESUS is NOT gay. gay and lesbians are catered to because people dont want to hurt your feelings. Here is the truth, homosexuallity is a sin, an unacceptable way of life to GOD. Repent, turn away from your sin and be baptized in the Name of JESUS, and HE will set you free. right now you are believing a lie and you shall be damned. please seek the LORD of Grace and Mercy JESUS Christ and HE will save you

Christ will return as the evenging angel and those who embrace homosexuality will be paced under the sword, or so I read...

A better question is "was Jesus the Christ?"

onlybelieve, there's a problem with your logic: human beings are spirit, soul and body.

The problem is, we die! So we can't possibly be "spirit" because that would mean that we are immortal and we could move, without resistance, through time and space and dimensions. Well, since that's not true and we can't do that, then its only logically to conclude that humans are indeed mortal souls who eventually die! No, we do not go to heaven nor hell, first of all because "hell" doesn't exist and secondly, per Jesus' own words, "No man has ascended into heaven" and Peters words 30-40 years AFTER Jesus died, "David is not ascended into heaven, but his here with us"......Soooooo....where are people getting the heaven concept from....or the hell concept....oh yeah, I remember, they are getting it from FALSE christian doctrine. What people choose to do with their lives is not one of any of our business. I completely missed the part when Jesus told us to be concerned with other peoples sin! Maybe you have a different set of scriptures that we don't know about. Jesus left us with that all inclusive, not exclusive, commandment, "Love you neighbor as you love yourself". That's a period after that which means end of discussion.

Ever notice how the gay-hating fundies can never find a Bible quote in which JESUS condemns homosexuality?

Very true Indigo, but they have no problem quoting Paul as if he was Jesus.

"All scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness."

God spoke through Paul so his words are as authoritative as Christ's. This is the historical Christian postition, so either accept it as a Christian or reject it as an unbeliever, or start a new cult.

Then Jay I reject your Christianity as I will not put a humans word as Gods.

I will continue to help the poor, help out charities when needed, donate to the charities so they can help out more. I will continue to help out others whenever I can, I will respect the environment, and I will be an ear for those that need someone to listen.

That is my philosophy on life, if God will condemn me because I refuse to listen to and worship Paul's words, then so be it.

Rygar,

Thank you for being honest and clear in your rejection of Christianity. Most on here are not as bold as you. Many try to cling to a form of Christianity that has no power to save. I highly respect, but am saddened by, your decision to reject Christ's gracious offer of salvation through repentant faith in Him. I humbly beg you to reconsider.

I personally will never follow the Bible. While I do believe in Jesus, I do not believe in following the credos of people like Paul, or evangelists today. I don't believe in the Mosaic Law as it was it was for a different culture of people at a different time.

I am my own person, I do my best to help out others and the environment, and do my best to try and make the world a better place through my actions. I do not need to have a book or a particular religion tell me what is right and wrong. I do not need to join an organized religion to validate my beliefs.

Rygar: I agree. I'm a Wiccan that loves Jesus -- but not Paul or Leviticus.

More harm has been done to Jesus by those who claim(ed) to speak on His behalf than by those who crucified Him.

Hmmmm, A Wiccan that loves Jesus?? Are you kidding me? Jesus said "If you love me, you will keep my commandments"

Wicca is a Neopagan religion, that is also often referred to as Witchcraft or the Craft by its adherents, who are known as Wiccans or Witches.

You are a witch, you practice things that are not in line with those that love the Lord.

JESUS said Love thy neighbor as thyself - that's all.

Lynn: Jesus was the greatest witch who ever lived. He loved all, harmed none, healed the sick, and fed the hungry -- all things that Wiccans are supposed to do. He had twelve disciples,which, of course, yielded that ever-important THIRTEEN you need for a full coven. Why wouldn't a witch like Jesus? As far as his commandments goes, his Golden Rule looks a whole lot like the Wiccan Rede. I haven't met too many practicing Christians who do more than pay lip service to Jesus while actively worshiping Paul.

I often wonder if the people who think as many of you do actually read and comprehend the Gospels. There's a pretty basic pattern to many of the stories in them. Jesus is being nice to everyone. Then the high priests, Pharisees, and hypocrites come around and say how dare you be nice and merciful to sinners, and Jesus condemns them for being so judgmental.

Hmmmm...

Praise cheeses!!!

By the way, if we are to take the Bible so literally, apparently it is okay if your neighbor's wife covets you!

Except if the "you" happened to be a girl. : )

Got me on a technicality there, Brad. I guess that is why so many wasted hours, days years and centuries were spent by reasonably intelligent men chasing their asses with their tongues trying to figure out what the hell this or that word meant in the context of the cosmos. My favorite philosopher, Bill Clinton, famously and most profoundly stated, It depends what your definintion of is is.

Thank you!! Lie ,steal, cheat and bear false witness. Seems to be the flavors of the day, and that's OK...but don't have a loving, committed relationship with someone of your own sex.

Islam isn't the only religion chock full of nuts.

These days, it seems that a sin is something you get caught doing....by Man, not by God. If you can get away with it, it apparently is not considered a sin. Nice moral code we live by...flexible, relativistic and, above all, user friendly. BTW, Name me one religion that is not chock full of nuts.

LOL... Point well taken.

Pam, with the divorce rate and unhappy, barely survivng marriages these days, maybe the only commited, loving relationships actually are between members of the same sex. I am all for same-sex marriage...why should heterosexuals be required to keep all the aggravation to themselves?

Exactly. ( you are a riot!)

My cousin is gay, he loves his partner, and they have been together for years, bought a home and are very generous and caring human beings.

I know many, many more hetrosexual couples married, cheating on each other, constantly fighting and actually have no business being on the same planet together, let alone in the same marriage.

Seems to me that marriage has been sullied and cheapened, and not by gays.

Pam, rather than cramp my fingers typing, I just refer you to my post at 10.11 below.

What is a worse sin under god's law...coveting your neighbor's wife or committing a homosexual act? Apparently the former, because the latter didn't make the cut for the 10 Commandments. So, in every church every Sunday, there are worshippers - and clergymen - who are holier-than-thou deceivers who clandestinely commit adultery with the wives of their fellow parishoners while chanting the hymns, crossing themselves, and vowing not to let gays anywhere near their sanctuary. By the way, if we are to take the Bible so literally, apparently it is okay if your neighbor's wife covets you!

You are making a huge assumption, that the 10 commandments have anything to do with "God". Every culture has had its creation mythology, and each one is different with their own books and beliefs about God. What makes you think your culture is the only one God didn't deceive?

I think these other deceivers that you speak of, show the lack of belief that is apparently rampant even amongst the "followers".

Both are equally sin. But if you want to get nit-picky, from what I read in the Bible, and books by ancient, secular Jewish historians, and in secular history books, then knowing that you aren't supposed to do these two sins and continuing to do them, still makes them equally sin. God especially condemns homosexual sin because it sprang out of Baal worship, which is Satanic. Why wouldn't Satan want to create religions that directly go against God?

The Jewish religion was the first religion on earth. As populations grew and spread out, different settlements developed and started to insert manmade religions ideas into the original Jewish/Living God religion. It started with the ancient Egyptians. They changed the theology and introduced ideas and theology that were Satan inspired. They used and twisted the original God given theology. These priests were homosexuals and they also sacrificed babies (associated with the sin of abortion today), along with animal and food sacrifies to idols and animals and nature. Any secret societies current or in history are based on these ancient twisted religions that always involved homosexual relationships/priests and the form of worship is directly opposite to how the Jewish and later on Christianity religions operated. You need to read a book were both Profane and Secular history are together so you understand how religions, culture and different beliefs developed from. There weren't suddenly a bunch of different religions that sprang up with their own theologies, based on their own evolvement. The biggest world wide, new world order type religion that developed was on the plain of Shinar with the tower of Babal. It was a religion where man decided that they could solve all their problems and they knew more than God. So, God destroyed their tower, gave them all separate languages and looks and sent then on their separate ways. Since they all originated from the Jewish religion and then bastardized it with Baal type religions at Babal, that is why it seems like there are all these different mythologies based on different cultures. All religions have the Flood story. So, that means their origins were before the Flood and Babal Tower, and were part of the bastardized religions that sprang up after the original Jewish religion of the Living God. Up until Darwin made his appearance, most history books you read told the same story I just did but in more detail. Part of Satan's plan is to confuse and confound humans so they start to think they weren't created by one God and evolved. And, the plan was to change all the scientific and history books and take the Bible and God out of society and education. What better plan? That is why you shouldn't depend up recent history or science books. History and science has been up for sale for the last hundred years. There are history and science books written around the time this country was created that scare the ACLU. They have been out of print, on purpose, for the last 150 years, due to the "new" history and science the Darwinians have been pushing. These old books are are being reprinted. There is a plan that has been in affect to produce a one world government for a long, long time, associated with the descendants of the same secret societies I was talking about above. They just have been repacked for the times.

Why did God have to flood the earth? Because humans had mated with angels who deserted heaven and changed their "habit" so they could live on earth with some human qualities - mostly sexual. They became demons and produced a half demon/human race that eventually every human family on earth and their descendants had flawed DNA. Except for Noah's family. Since prophecy directed that Jesus' blood line had to be pure because his blood is what "saves" all of us. God had to destroy everyone except Noah's family so they could repopulate the earth with normal people so Jesus' DNA/bloodline/geneology would continue. The bodies that the angel/demons inhabitated died but the spirits of the demons survived. That is part of Satan's army today. These particular ones need to inhabit a hunan body.

So, does this make you wonder why there have been all these alien sightings and kidnappings that seem to center on human reproduction. Also, for some strange reason, the aliens seem to harp on the errors of the Christian religion. Not the Hindu or Islam or pagans. Strange.......

Anyway, Nazism came out of a secret society based on Norse warrior religions that involved both satanisim and homosexuality. The Knights of Templar (wrong spelling) were condemned and destroyed because of homosexuality, along with some other warrior type groups in history.

And, you are wrong to assume that all religions worship the Jewish/Christian God. Islam worships a stone moon god called Allah that was the favorite god out of the ove 300 pagan Gods in Arabia at that time. The other two were Jewish and Christian. The big black rock called the Kabbah, they bow down to in Mecca, is associated with the original Baal satanic religions that sprang up after the Jewish religion. Even the word in Islam, Hallal, translates to quarter moon or meets approval under the theology in Islam, which is on most of the Islamic country's flags. Even the Bible talks about the Kabbah, star and moon worship which is condemned in the OT books of Ezekial and Isaiah and others. Also, the worship of anything associated with witches, spells, fortune telling, nature worship, sacrifices not done as instructed by God, etc...anything today we associate with pagan religions, is condemned with emphasis because it is associated with the Baal and Babylon and Assyrians and Hitites and Philistians (which originated on Crete and Philistians means invaders), etc... some of the religions that twisted the Jewish religion. Even the original astrology was Jewish. When the Jews were taken as slaves for 70 years to Babylon - remember the story of Daniel. The original Jewish astrology was all about the prophecy of Jesus/King of Jews coming. Remember, Daniel was the only one who could intepret Nebuchanazzer's dreams. None of his magi could.

And, please explain to me what you mean by "God didn't deceive"".

And, why do you expect Christiana always to be perfect and without fault but don't expect the same for you and others? The Bible says we are supposed to take Christian believers aside if they are sinning and lovingly instruct them. So, yes, Christians are supposed to judge but not in the worldy manner you are trying to associate with God. By the way, the word "judge" in Hebrew doesn't mean the same as it does in our current culture. This doesn't mean that the translations are incorrect, the Dead Sea Scrolls have proved that we have the same Bible. In fact, of all the ancient books, both profane and secular, the Bible is the only one that has either eye witnesses to Jesus's life or was written within one hundred years of Jesus' life. The next closest books are the Greek philosophers and even they were written 400 years after the fact with no eyewitnesses.

It seems as though you are angry.

Earlier in this forum, someone said there are over 600 laws and commandments in the OT. The ten that are so famous are the basis.

Well, I've said enough to get a lot of hate back. But I don't care. Just do some real research and put it all together. Why is all the hate directed toward the Jewish/Christian God??? Not that we are perfect. No human is.

bdebogota: " What is a worse sin under god's law...coveting your neighbor's wife or committing a homosexual act?"

Well,wither you realize it or not every child at sometime in there life (played) with themselves,and found it enjoyable,(it's called exploring your body).

Catholics called that a sin too. ( hog-wash !) It's time everyone of you bible thumpers...and finger pointers, put down your stones & sticks, quite throwing them at everyone you call a sinner and proclaiming yourself righteous !

Your No different than anyone else !

Think about this... When you point a finger at someone... there are (3) fingers pointing back at you from your same hand that you point with ! to them !

What gives you the right, to tell anyone else what to do in there bedroom with another adult? That's there business ! Not Yours.

Oh, my, Barbara, now you're going to get them started.

So, Brad, maybe my neighbor's wife is coveting me---oooo, goody!

Well, that's between you two. Hehe; but the point is how these folks have a ranking of sin from good, better to best. And a literal interpretation does not condemn a woman coveting; only a man. Of course, in those days, women were property. Among some of those churches, they're little better today, sort of a combination maid and brood mare.

You're right, Brad, but I felt the need to inject just a bit of humor.

There was a comment on another article today that stated that women belong in the kitchen, not running corporations, in the military, etc. "Keep them barefoot and pregnant" was the message. I didn't know there were still guys like that out there.

Oh, yeah, my neighbor's wife is a dog, wouldn't be interested anyway. Giggle!

Yeah, but you should see MY neighbors wife...What a BABE. Think I gonna be doing a little coveting there, if you dont mind. Cmon over, pjw, twos company but threes a party.

Sorry, guys don't do a thing for me in that way.

Yes she is. Apparently you have accepted the gospel of Dan Brown with your second line.

About us being children of insest, I believe you're asking the age old question, "where did Cain get his wife?" Yes, she was his sister. But here is the problem with "your" interpretation of the facts you no nothing about. It wasn't until Moses that any law concerning marriage between brother and sister came about. Now why was that? Because, we are made in God's image, which means Adam and Eve were genetically perfect and so were their children. With no defect or anomalies in their genes, there was no reason to outlaw marriage between siblings. You might think it gross or yucky, but consider how many cultures today do things or have customs that many of us find offensive yet because it is their custom we accept it as ok. Now many, many generations after Cain, the amount of defects in the human genome were increasing to the point that conception between family members would greatly increase the chance of a major birth defect, thus the law was given to Moses forbidding it. This is simple genetics as we understand it today. And by the way Barbara, there were no offspring in the Garden of Eden as you stated. Cain and Able didn't come along till after Adam and Eve were removed from the garden.

Another thing about Jesus not judging. You are very correct. He did not, but He will for He Himself said;

John 5:¹⁹Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. ²⁰For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. ²¹For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.²²Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, ²³that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Remember, the first time He was a lamb. Next time He will be a lion and come in all power and glory.

I'd want to befriend Him instead of speak against Him.

pjw, then maybe you wouldnt mind working the videocam...

Eeeeuuuuwwwww! Did get a bit of a chuckle from that one, though.

That is what it was there for, hon.

That's what I figured.

I never fell in love with an avowed lesbian before, but you are opening my eyes to distinctly new possibilities. The closest I ever got was a fiance who was a bi-sexual, even though Truman Capote said that even bi-sexuals have sexual preferences. And Woody Allen said that being bi-sexual doubles your chance of getting a date on Saturday night.

You are a really cook chick there, pjw.

Thanks! It's nice to have an intelligent and humorous conversation on NV. Woody Allen needed that chance. Giggle!

Thanks for a good laugh!!!! How does a woman made from the rib of the original man make their marriage and offspring incest??? Since you brought it up, where did you research that they were siblings? And, I'm sure your next comment will be their children's offspring. First, please answer my question above.

Jesus was Jewish!

Of course he was, from the day he was born until the day he died. What I meant was his existence gave rise to a movement that converted Jews to gentiles and spread throughout the gentile world.

Like they say, if Jesus and the 12 apostles were all Jewish and Jews are such smart businessmen, then how did 13 smart Jews like those guys ever let a business like that get away!

It gives one pause to think, now doesn't it?! Course, the Christian right is trying to coax them back into the fold for the apocolypse.

When the apocalypse comes, no coaxing will be necessary. Us Jews will board that train to salvation in a New York minute. After all, we are the chosen people, so I guess that is what we will be chosen for. We are just trying to hold onto our Jewishness until the last possible minute and, being designated the chosen people by the Lord, I guess that is okay with Him.

Hang on, bdeb, don't let go, not yet!

Hell, pjw, I didnt go through the pain of circumcision just to give it all up so easily. Did you hear the one about the moyle who saved all the foreskins from all the circumcisions he performed over 40 years and had them all sewn into a wallet...but when he rubbed the wallet it turned into a suitcase. They say that being a moyle does not pay well, but the tips are terrific.

The only person I've heard announcing he will be responsible for the end of the world as we know it comes from Iran/Persia. I don't know where you get the idea that the Religious Right wants the world to end and they are making plans toward it. I listen to them and I don't hear them announce any plans for it. Sure they discuss the prophecy and how current world events support that it could be getting close to Jesus' return. But I never hear them say anything close to Iran's President. Starting a war in Iraq or anywhere in the middle east or near east, has nothing to do with facilitating or making it happen sooner. There is nothing in Biblical prophecy that tells us that we can do anything to bring the end of the world sooner. In fact, it says over and over, only God knows the date and time. Not even Jesus knows the date and time. I've always been wondering why people say the Religious Right is trying to make it happen. Wrong religion.......Islam is the only one I know that suggests there is an action that humans can do to make it so....

Well, you will always have people that beat their kids, me I dont beat my kids I just spank them, or used to, they are grown now. Most parents should never have to spank their kids by the way, if they are consistent in their discipline that is. Say no the first time and stick with it, dont be wishy washy, that makes for a spoiled chld!

NO parent ever has to hit a child. It's a choice they make and they normally point to the bible to excuse their abusive behavior. Lazy abusive parenting.

I have. The Assemblies of God won't let you through the front door if they know you're gay. They also state in their bylaws that the love of Jesus is available to all believers EXCEPT homosexuals.

Well, then, you have proved something......their theology is off. They don't have to agree with the lifestyle but they don't get to leave them out and deny Christ's forgiveness to them.

Isn't it interesting that whenever you disagree with someone's opinion or action, you are called "hateful"? I personally am shocked that there are so many folks here who can call themselves believers but are so completely unknowledgeable about the message of the Bible. Now...if I say this, am I being hateful?! No...just stating my view.

There might be some disagreements about end times doctrine because it something that is presented in a prophetic manner, full of symbols not easily interpreted. However, that cannot be said about what the scripture teaches about sexual behavior--whether is homosexual behavior, promiscuity, adultery or other forms of prurience, the teachings are direct, clear and to the point.

If preachers teach one thing and do another, does that change the directive?No. I am speaking to believers--if we believe God is our maker, than we believe He has the authority and right to guide us about the right and wrong ways to use our "temple" (bodies)--much in the same way a car maker can write a manual telling us "don't use juice in the gas tank" or "don't drive in the water." We can disregard the manual, make excuses as to why we shouldn't follow it (it's written by people, it's full of errors, or we know better, or the car creator didn't really mean it, or surely the car creator didn't mean to be hateful and ruin our fun) but if we do, the car won't work the way it was intended and will have many problems and maybe even breakdown.

You know, just because we have an "urge" to behave in a certain way, does not mean we were created to live that way. The bible also teaches some urges are not feelings that He created in us, but rather are the result of sin entering the world at the Fall of man. I am speaking to believers here. For those who accept the scriptures as divinely inspired and given to men to write down for us, we know that some of those urges NOT created by God are things we are to fight against, not give into. Things such as the urge to murder, and the urge to steal and the urge to desire things that aren't ours (such as our neighbor's wife) and the urge to sexual behavior outside the Creator's plan (homosexuality, promiscuity, etc.) are things we are not to give into. To say that does not mean we don't love sinners because we all stray at times. But we encourage each other to live according to His word, and know that He in His love will help and enable us to do so by the power of the Holy Spirit. It's not always easy, especially when we've made a habit of giving into unholy desires, but His power is great and miraculous and His love is healing.

If preachers teach one thing and do another, does that change the directive?

Maybe we ought to put that one to Rev. Baker, Rev. Haggard and Rev. Swaggert.

Yes, those ministers sinned, confessed, and in some cases served time. But if they truly repented and changed their ways, then they are forgiven. Just the same as if you did the same. Why is it that if a Christian falls, then the "world" can never forgive them and delights in their fall. Now, that's showing your true heart and judging. Yes, sinning and never repenting is wrong. The original writer wasn't referring to the "prime directive", as in Star Trek. Most miscommunications are based on misunderstandings.

Why else would she have hung in there with him for so long?

Maybe she hung in there because he was hung.

Because He set her free from her sins.

In the most literal translation of the Bible, Mary was a "woman from the city"...later translated by MAN ( Constantine)to be a woman of loose morals...

Same thing with Phoebe...originally translated, she was a priestess and "ministered to many". King James tweeked that one to read that she was only a nurse, and "suckored many".....HUGE difference in translations...don't you think?

That's part of the problem.....too many cooks spoil the broth.

Buka, maybe there is more than one way to set someone free from her sins...

Watch it, Pam. There are enough alternative translations of Biblical terms running around these days for us to have to deal with the verb "suckored."

Not funny at all....

Not my fault, I didn't even know "suckored" was a word until I read it in the Bible. I could have paraphrased it...assuming he mean it to be a reference to wet nursing...but who knows what these "translators" were thinking.

bdebogota

Buka, maybe there is more than one way to set someone free from her sins...

Watch it, Pam. There are enough alternative translations of Biblical terms running around these days for us to have to deal with the verb "suckored."

And many more in the offing when the Religious Right finishes its new and improved translation of the Bible.

buka, THere is no Commandment THOU SHALT NOT HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOR.

Pam, I think the English spelling is SUCCORED, so substituting the C for the K might take you - and the rest of Christianity - off the hook.

Now, Brad, you are scaring me. There are a whole lotta mentions of sheep and lambs in the Bible. What do you think they will make of that?

I think we're safe as long as their family trees branch.

Got it! Succored......where the heck is my spellcheck?! LOL

Where in the bible does it say Jesus married Mary Magdalene?

Good question, the answer is nowhere.

Yeah, Harold. A following of loving, caring, forgiving, humble, decent, accepting, non-judgmental people. Just the kind of people Jesus would have wanted in His Church. By the way, exactly where do you go to worship Him?

Their ridiculous beliefs are just as warranted as your ridiculous beliefs. All one needs to be Christian is a belief in the divinity of Christ. Mormons obviously have a significantly different take on Christianity than Pentecostals, but they're both Christians.

No, I do not feel it is my duty to tell another person they are doing wrong...unless they ask for my opinion. And even then, it is only my opinion. My belief is that as a Christian it's my duty to be supportive of another person striving to build their own relationship with God. To remind them that God loves them and that if they pray to God for guidance, God will provide it and give them the answers they seek. As a Christian, I have the Holy Spirit who acts upon my conscience to let me know I am sinning. I always know full well when I have sinned. I don't always know what to do about it or readily acknowledge it, but I know when I have erred. And for me the only time Christian fellowship is valuable is when it is loving and supportive as I work through my own sins in the way that God, through the Holy Spirit, guides me. Christian fellowship has been harmful to me in times it was used to smack my nose with a newspaper, so to speak and rub my nose in my mistakes.

As for what the ministers should teach--I leave that for them to pray for guidance about. Jesus himself didn't seem as focused on discussing sins in great detail. He seemed more focused on teaching people to persevere when we lose our way, stamping out hypocrisy in our hearts and in our churches, and in encouraging us to fight the ravages of poverty. He spent a LOT of time, more time than even I find comfortable, lol, emphasizing we not only could do more for the poor but most definitely are expected to do more for the poor and suffering. I definitely don't do as much as Jesus said we ought to. So I'm more in danger of judgement for THAT failing than any person is for being gay. I don't remember Jesus saying ANYTHING about homosexuality. It didn't seem to be on his radar screen, so to speak.

I don't understand your logic. How convenient to try to carve Jesus out of the whole counsel of God and ignore the parts that aren't comfortable.It's not an "either/or" thing. Both ignoring the poor and sexual immorality are things not at all pleasing to God. And Jesus Himself said that He came to fulfill the law (of the O.T.), not abolish it. Meaning, that in Him and through Him alone, we are enabled to live out the life/standards God has laid out in myriads of places throughout the Bible. And through Him we recieve mercy when fail, and then GRACE to get up and try again.

Christians may not be too gracious at times--we shouldn't be rubbing people's noses in newpapers-- but that doesn't change the truth of the "newspapers." It's just a matter of how we help people get there.

Christians may not be too gracious at times

What a polite way of putting what people do when they come to your home uninvited and unannounced and tell you that you're going to hell if you don't believe the way they do or attend their church. Reminds me of this gal I saw on youtube recently:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyJI9xDUYV8&feature=related

Saying that Christians are "sometimes ungracious" is like saying that Stalin occasionally had a bad temper.

Usually, the people that come to your home uninvited, and I'm referring to people that you don't know to begin with, usually belong to a couple of cults that aren't really Christian when you get down to examining their secret theology. But I wonder why you let them into your house and socialize long enough with them so they can get to the part about condemning you. They usually don't start out with that part. So, next time, don't invite them in. Or, ask them at the door if they are going to share a religion with you that involves "condemning to hell". That's my Emily Post religious manners offering.

Our gods house encompasses the entire planet, solar system , galaxies and all that is (seen and unseen). Our god created all that is . Like you Usadiver our god is love as well but alas so many have a very different god and they have and will use their very different god to murder, rape, enslave, and force their will onto others till the end of time.

I don't hate them either.And they should be allowed to come to church.But unless they turn from their sin and sin no more,only then should they be allowed a postion in church.maybe as a deacon,but not a preacher.

You say you don't "hate them" Lewis, but your words convey an intolerance and disrespect that surely is not what should be part of your christian outlook.

maybe as a deacon,but not a preacher.

Would janitor be asking too much?

Would janitor be asking too much?

Nope Brad, for the Janitor would then spread the soapy suds of sin across the floors of righteousness!

Lewis, if only people who didn't sin were allowed to be preachers, there would be a definite scarcity of preachers. Does the name "Ted Haggard" ring a bell? Jerry Falwell? Jimmy Swaggart?

pjw--standard default answer: someone who doesn't agree with homosexuality is "full of hate." Never mind that the directives of the Bible are inconveniently clear about it. You can call God hateful and Paul too. But God also said murderers and thieves would not enter the Kingdom of God--is He hateful because of that, too? Or is He merely exercising His right as creator to guide us about right and wrong in the world (and the bodies) that He made?

Now, if you are not a believer, than you will not believe anything in the Bible and will basically make or choose another religion. But for those who follow Christianity, these are the teachings and they are based not in hate, but rather in love. It is a loving creator that teaches us how to live and conquer urges that are not of Him.

And yet, all you christians CLAIM to know the will of God. So you have a mistranslated, mistransliterated and copied and copied and copied again book in your hands that you call the bible (even though the proper term would be scriptures) and you all swear up and down that you know this and you know that....well let me tell exactly what you "know"....you know NOTHING. There,....plain and simple. Please, leave the judging to the "Son" and because last time I read, Jesus himself said that "the Father judges no one" but He allows the Son to "judge"! He didn't say John, He didn't say Paul, He didn't say his followers, He said the "SON". We are just followers so keep your screwed up misinterpretations and mistranslations to yourselves and let people live their lives and I would even go so far to say that many homosexuals grew up in the christian faith...so what does that tell you...and here's a hint: it doesn't tell you that they left because they didn't agree with the "bible", I'm willing to bet it has more to do with the holy rollers than anything else!

So, JPW, if you know someone is a pedophile, you would invite them to babysit your kids or teach them the rules of life? He wasn't being disrespectful. He said they should be invited to attend. He then said they shouldn't be given a position of influence. Don't try to confuse the issue.

Ron, who here is claiming to know the will of God? I hear you telling everyone what to do and what to believe and that we are all wrong. Is that judging?

What does growing up in a Christian home have to do with anything.

The Bible we have today is the same as the original writings. Check with the Dead Sea Scrolls.

I haven't heard anyone here saying that Paul or John is going to judge. Please site the verse for your statement that Jesus is going to do judging and not God.

The NT does say that Christians should lovely "judge" other Christians when they see them sinning. Also, look up the Hebrew meaning for Judgement.

There is a danger assigning current English cultural meanings to Biblical words. Jewish word meanings are based on function not abstract Greek definitions.

Many people treat Christianity as a buffet. They pick and choose what parts of it they want to follow and then assign their own justification for not following the other parts. That is usually called, "worshiping the creation not the creator". Or, it could be idol worship because you are worshipping your own created religion. Listen to the Holy Spirit.

Amazon

It's very interesting to see that most of the time people do not respond to your posts. Personally, I find them to be very clear and in most case right on to what I have grown to understand the word of God to be. Gods Blessings on You.

John.....I did read your quote, and if you read down,( in that former post) I also took the time to thank you profusely for your time and your effort.

Now, I kinda have my tongue in my cheek after reading this last post, as Christ said..."Nothing outside of a man can make him unclean by going into him...rather it is what comes out of a man that makes him unclean."

Wouldn't the same logic apply to a penis? (I mean...seriously.)

Or do you think that perhaps the greater sin is hatred that comes out of some?

Apparently, they still rank sin Pam: good, better & best - or some fascimile thereof! : )

John, back to Paul and his issues. He was really a very negative dude, you know?!

Also read Romans chapters 1 and 2!!

Lewis, Romans were written by Paul. Paul was a man that made lots of claims that are no longer followed (Slavery being alright, women's role in society, etc). What makes his words to be on par with those with Jesus?

Rygar: Paul's letters were just that -- letters. They're interoffice memos written from one minister to another. How they got canonized as Scripture defies comprehension.

Also read Romans chapters 1 and 2.

Seems to me he is making it about "love your neighbor" no exceptions and I say good for him. How is this running afoul of the lord.

I would never make the claim that the NT condoned homosexuality, but rather that many fundamental applications on the Bible are openly rejected by modern, mainstream Christian society. The Bible is quite explict about the sin of cross dressing, yet you would be hard pressed to find a mainstream Christian Church condemning a woman wearing jeans or a pant suit. However, this is one of the differentiating qualities of the Apostolic Church which in fact gets ridiculed. On the other hand, slavery was explicitly permitted in the Bible, but with the rise of the "Black Church" abolition has practically become adopted as a central tenant in American Christianity. Likewise forcing a rape victim to marry a rapist, or parents stoning their children would nowadays be abhorred. That's why I find this focus on homosexuality and willful ignorance to the other traditional applications of Christianity so amusing. Of course judging how some of these folks so frequently agree with the murder of Homosexuals I think they would blend in just fine with the "God hates fags" crowd.

.

Why do Christians quote from a fictional book of myths written by MEN when trying to justify their actions and prove them as "true" to logical, intelligent people. They may as well be quoting from Grimm's Fairytales or Mother Goose, it's all completely meaningless non-sense without one SHRED of credible, actual, solid PROOF behind it.

It's nothing more than a "because I said so" defense. Completely innane and laughable.

HINT: Circular arguments are "proof" of nothing.

SMC: Well... if they tried to get a quote from Jesus condemning gays, they'd be looking for a long, long time.

Does he bay at the moon?

Had to be that the naysayers would be out, eventually, Brad. My stepdad had a dog that was part wolf and she did bay at the moon, erie sound.

The naysayers are exactly the reason why may shadow will never, ever darken the doorway of a church. Build a structure and charge admission for salvation ought to be chiseled over the doorways of most of them.

"Be kinder than necessary. Everyone is fighting some kind of battle." -Unknown

Wait I thought the anti-christ was a person, as in a particular individual. I don't think god would like you labeling everyone that doesn't believe what you do as the anti-christ.

The naysayers are why I no longer attend a "Christian" church (I go to the UU church). I, rather, attend one that allows us to search and question and find our own spiritual path, based on education, research, and tolerance for all. As a gay person, it is nice to know that I am not judged.

I love your #25.5, it is beautiful.

I really like that quote in 25.5 too. Brad, have you ever heard of the Metropolitan Community Church system? They are churches that are designed specifically for the LGBT community. One of the few churches I've ever felt really comfortable in - and I'm straight! (but not narrow)

Forum "the rules" you refer to are made by men who want to control the gullible masses, not by God. God loves us all, and he doesn't care about sexual orientation. There are so many worthwile causes you could choose to occupy yourself with, why choose this?? Do you know that Jesus did not approve of judgemental people?

I'm amazed how many christians don't really know the bible but the rhetoric spewed.

Leviticus ? was speaking of male homosexual prostitutes .. only. A common sight around pagan temples. It was prostitution, not the act.

this got carried over into the NT. yet twisted to mean the act . Jesus never said a word .

________________________________

Here Jesus healed a gay ' man '...Jesus didn't condemn them or even called them sinners !!

Healing of the Centurion's Servant

Centurion and Pais.

Dr. Kenneth J. Dover, (a heterosexual), formerly President of Corpus Christi College, Oxford University, and Chancellor of the University of St. Andrews, Scotland, 1981 until his retirement in 2005 and noted authority on ancient Greece, in his book, Greek Homosexuality, tells us the younger partner in a homosexual relationship is called pais or paidika. This information impacts our Centurion and pais discussion.

"The pais in a homosexual relationship was often a youth who had attained full height." p. 16.

"The Greeks often used the word paidika in the sense of 'eromenos.' "[Meaning "the boy you are in love with]. p. 16.

Paidika is the diminutive of pais.

"The junior partner in homosexual eros is called pais (or, of course, paidika) even when he has reached adult height and hair has begun to grow on his face." p. 85.

here we have an anti-gay scholar -

Dr. Gagnon writes:

"boy" (pais) could be used of any junior partner in a homosexual relationship, even one who was fullgrown." Dr. Robert Gagnon, The Bible And Homosexual Practice, p. 163, footnote 6.

Dr. Robert Gagnon, Pittsburg Theological Seminary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For six hundred years before Matthew wrote his Gospel, Greek language and literature used pais to mean "a beloved lover" or "the younger partner in a same sex relationship." That legitimates the probability that the Centurion and pais story deals with an ancient gay relationship which Jesus blessed.

First century Greek readers of Matthew's Gospel would have picked up on the pais references which most twenty-first century English readers miss. Pais and paidika were used by writers in ancient times to refer to a lover (like the Centurion and pais story) in a homosexual relationship.

We have already noted that many ancient Greek writers, among them, Thucydides, Eupolis, Aeschines, Plato, Callimanchus and Plutarch used pais or paidika in the sense of "beloved or same sex lover."

The cultural and historical setting Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10 addressed when they tell the Centurion and pais story is vitally important. Both Matthew and Luke use the Greek word pais to describe the Centurion's relationship with his "servant." They used the word pais at a time when that word had definite same sex meaning when used as they used it, to refer to the relationship between a Roman Centurion and his "beloved" servant.

Should we ignore their choice of words because it makes some Christians uncomfortable? Does understanding the common meaning of pais as "beloved or same sex lover" place the Centurion and pais story squarely in the cultural context Matthew and Luke addressed? Certainly it does.

http://www.gaychristian101.com/Centurion-And-Pais.html

If Jesus had no problem with them being gay ...

Here Jesus healed a gay ' man '...Jesus didn't condemn them or even called them sinners !!

If what you say is true, then after that man met jesus he was no longer gay.

If what you say is true, then after that man met jesus he was no longer gay.

DW-90,

Homosexuality is not an affliction, disease, genetic disorder, or mental disorder that can be treated and/or cured ... it just is.

Get over it.

Get off your high horse, holier-than-though pedestal and join the rest of us rational thinkers.

Just an Observation-826313

Homosexuality is a choice, now get over it. You are not a rational thinker, so get off your high horse, gayer than thou pedestal and join the rest of us in the real world.

Arctic,

Please inform us all those homosexual attractions you had but rejected since sexuality is a choice.

**crickets chirping**

ArcticWitness : " Homosexuality is a choice, now get over it. You are not a rational thinker, so get off your high horse, gayer than thou pedestal and join the rest of us in the real world."

Give me actual clinical Proof , that homosexuality is a choice.

I don't want to hear about Religion,or it Say'so in the bible type answer either. ! Prove to Me and the rest of the world that it is a choice. !

I'll give you till the end of the year to prove your claim.

With the grief that society places on homosexuals of either gender it is absolutely ludicrous to assert that ANYONE would CHOOSE to be homosexual. I applaud those who have the courage to accept who they are and demand to be treated with equal respect.

Feelings change, (kinda like the "Change" you get when you vote with a feeling instead of the facts). You can want something so much that it is blinding. If you attempt to live your life based on what you feel, you are reduced to animal instincts. Humans are the only creatures that have the ability to control feelings, to bring about better judgement.

You can love many in life, it is who you CHOOSE to love the most that makes the difference. What you choose in life is YOURS and YOU will have to deal with decisions you make in life. I am not here to handout the tissues for the streaming mascara, but to put it bluntly, quit whining, buck up (not that kind), and get a grip on the menstrual cycles. You are what you choose to be, now deal with who you are, no one escapes it in life.

But I'll hold your hand while you cry. Jesus would.

All that you said is true, ArticWilderness. A little snarky, but true. Feelings change. Look at the divorce rate!

Homosexuality is not a feeling. It is a state of being. No matter how HARD that is for some to accept, it IS, just as fully as the "I AM."

Why is that so hard to accept. Why does everybody have to be JUST like everybody else in order to be just fine?

(ArcticWitness :) Again, I'll ask, ...

Give me actual clinical Proof , that homosexuality is a choice.

I do understand what your saying,"feelings can change". But, your equating homosexuality as a choice,as though it is a feeling or a choice,and it's NOT a choice ! You can change your mind,but you can not change who you are in side.

Ex: A person is born with "gray" eyes,or red hair, No one in the family has gray eyes or red hair,there born with that. Same with homosexuality, transsexuals, it's in them,some where in the gene pool or DNA it is their, they can't change that, (like changing there minds !) and make themselves live heterosexual , to please the rest of the world,so that everyone is comfortable with them? No ! Arctic, it can't be done.

perhaps I should try to explain it to you this way... You Love your husband/or wife, you know,that "feeling". It's inside you somewhere...you can't change that feeling, you have for Him/Her, but can you "force" yourself to stop Loving them? And go against your "true" feelings. ( knowing full well,it hurts you inside) to do that ! And live your life miserable !

If I'm reading you correctly, your asking Homosexuals to change who they are because is it a choice ? Your asking them to be something there not...when it's in them from the beginning ! Your asking them to go against there "true nature" and be something there not.

In your own words: " You are what you choose to be, now deal with who you are, no one escapes it in life."

We are who we are,we are dealing with who we are, and We can not change that, like changing your mind.

We can't change to be Heterosexual, so that everyone is comfortable with Us or comfortable dealing with Us.

quote: (kinda like the "Change" you get when you vote with a feeling instead of the facts).

you "vote"...and it was a wrong vote, you made a wrong decision,you can "change" that ! But you can not change who you are ! that's the facts.

Can you make a Heterosexual, stop being a Heterosexual ? Is heterosexuality a choice ? Arctic.

Yes. It is a choice.

Well, I guess that does it then! (sarc)

(ArcticWitness): "Yes. It is a choice."
So you say, heterosexuality is a choice. Unbelievable !!!
You made a conscious decision in your life at sometime or another to be straight rather than gay? And when did this happen ? pray tell.... inlighten us all as to when this happened ! Please !

("Well, I guess that does it then! (sarc)" David Jewell)

Am I to understand you side with such a foolish decission, David ?

As for anything that is different from the main stream, is looked upon as fearful and unexplainable and thus is brought upon with opposition and condemned. They don't want to understand it or try to explain an answer for it. So they exercise hatred for it or towards it. Is there an explanation for heterosexuality? Surely many people will have an answer for you, and by there standards it is the right answer. But there answer,does not apply to homosexuals, why is that ?

But the answer I have recived from countless number of hetrosexuals is: "Were striaght,because that is the way it is." How interesting ! is that !

No, LindaMarie, I was being sarcastic, hence the (sarc) inclusion. AW responded to your thoughtful, reasoned post with a dismissive response as if it was summarily true because he said it.

You might as well have spent three hours explaining to him that ice floats and that it can be demonstrated and explained. He would have then used all of his self-important reasoning to say, "No it doesn't."

He/they are not interested in proof unless it supports their bigotry.

I've had many chances to be "gay" with other beautiful women and even offers from "gay" men. Guess they weren't that "gay" after all? Could have fooled me with the sparkling boots and mascarra although. I can tell you it had crossed my mind on a good night out, back in the day. I didn't act upon my chances, because I choose not to. Although I think back and wonder what if? Could have been fun. It's just my sexual choices I've made, prevented me from being gay? I could love anyone if I choose too. I could love more than one if I choose too.

I have Never known a gay person to not have slept with the opposite sex, so your all really bisexual? Explain how bisexuals fit in to the homosexual genetic pool.....

Being gay is a choice, who you choose to sleep with or how many, or in what form is not important. Dungeon sex, group sex, what ever you choose to do out there in the name of feeling good and love, keep it to yourself. Your raining on my fireman fantasy. I want special rights to facilitate this!!!!

Sounds like you might BE bi, AW! That's not the same as gay though.

That's not the same as gay though.

How many levels of sexual choice layers down does it take to make one true gay?

In hispanic countries it's the steer not the rider that is gay. Do define what gay is! The gayest one wins the title? Who says whos gay and whos not gay enough?

I'll leave that to one who is.

David, you should know these things, especially if you live and believe in what you'll fight for. Interesting.

ArcticWitness):" I've had many chances to be "gay" with other beautiful women and even offers from "gay men."

Sounds to me as though you just described yourself as Bi-sexual. Or your tendencies are their. I'm not quite sure your meaning regarding..."chances", that you are speaking of. It's not like buying a lotto ticket and hope for the best love affair. I have my own opinion of Bi-sexuality,which I shall not air here on the Vine. It is confusing,to say the least.

" I have Never known a gay person to not have slept with the opposite sex, ".

Then I would tell you,you don't know very many gays. I know a lot of them that have never touched a female sexually,(that is ). And yes, there are others who have been married and fathered children.

Bare in mind,ArticW, that I am not here to discredit or insult your thoughts or feelings as to how you live your life,I understand and respect that. I am just trying to learn and understand your statements. Granted I "live" a completely different life than that of the gay community,but we are still, "Family" irregardless. I beg to differ with you on the statement: "gay is a choice". If that be the case,how does one explain being heterosexual? As I stated in my previous post, heterosexuals came up with the same answer to me. (Not quite good enough....for my standards of an answer.)

" who you choose to sleep with or how many, or in what form is not important."

It is important. Very important indeed ! Unless you consider yourself a nymphomaniac, and can not help your sexual urges. That's a whole different ball game as I see it. I won't even go their ! on that discussion.

" my fireman fantasy" As you are referring too it. Perhaps you should sit yourself down and evaluate your sexuality,or dismiss your "fantasy" completely, before you hurt yourself and many others you come in personnel relationships with. Playing your fantasy,at the risk of others feelings is a dangerous thing to do to another person,just so you can have fun? And experiment !

By-the-way, David. I got your sarcasm. I understand dear. Stay safe.

Sounds to me as though you just described yourself as Bi-sexual. Or your tendencies are their.

I have always appealed to both sexes. Humans are the only creatures to be able to override tendencies for better judgement. "Remember to think twice." If you have common morals, you will consider your parent's and other family members feelings when making decisions in life. They are part of you, whether you accept them or not. You will also have to weigh the good or bad outcome from the decisions you've made.I in life have made many good decisions and positive is the outcome from my choices. Wisdom is happiness knowing in life the sacrifices of tendencies you've made to make the best life for those around you. Just say no.

Granted I "live" a completely different life than that of the gay community,but we are still, "Family" irregardless

Tell your "family" to quit embarrassing you. That is kinda like saying that the Mormons should support the branched off polygamist sects.

" my fireman fantasy" As you are referring too it. Perhaps you should sit yourself down and evaluate your sexuality,or dismiss your "fantasy" completely, before you hurt yourself and many others you come in personnel relationships with.

Ok, not only the fashion police, the fantasy police? Plugheeze. You are shallow, everyone has a fantasy. My personal relationship is great, thank you for inquiring. It may be that you still at this point think I am a man, lol. Whats wrong with a woman having a fireman fantasy? O'honey, can you put on those boots tonight? I think he's hurting.... yeha right. pfft.

"It may be that you still at this point think I am a man,"(ArcticW).

It doesn't matter to me if you male or female,that's not my concern. I understand your meaning at the fantasy statement,I have them too from time to time. As far as Family,embarrassing me, I don't get embarrassed by there doings. There responsible for there own actions. TS side of the LGBT is a whole different life we live,not theirs. As far as being shallow, I'm far from it.

("Remember to think twice." If you have common morals, you will consider your parent's and other family members feelings when making decisions in life.)

Trust me,My Dear. I have considered my family's feeling long before I made my own decision as to who I am in the world,from the age of 9 to 14 years of age. And that decision is cast in stone ! Regardless of there approval. I am obligated to make My own life happy. Not at the expence of others around me and what they think of me.

As far as Family,embarrassing me, I don't get embarrassed by there doings.

I would be very concerned with what the gay "family" does, it is the image that is portrayed for all gays. I am embarassed for you and other decent gays.

Regardless of there approval. I am obligated to make My own life happy.

Thats the same thing drug addicts say. Wrong answer. Very self serving and not loyal or considerate judgement. Most women I have know that are gay have, father issues, rape issues, ect. I have worked with and lived with gays, my best friend WAS gay her whole life, then met the right man and they have kids now. I also have a very fem male friend who is not gay every few years, then completely gay again. I know more than one gay man like this. Gays are nothing more than bisexuals who prefer sex with the same gender more often than the opposite.

Not at the expence of others around me and what they think of me.

What people think is a heavy scale to weigh and should be considered, it is human nature to be seen in light of others eyes.

"Most women I have know that are gay have, father issues, rape issues,"

I don't have those issues, never did. I'm exceptionally happy with the life I live and am living.

ArcticWitness): "That's the same thing drug addicts say. Wrong answer. "

For the record, There is no place in my life for drugs. To allocate my answer to that of a drug addict is absurd. My answer is the correct answer for me.

Evaluate your own answers and your own life and how you treat people.

Your point?

Man, you know that the socio-sexual climate in America has really taken a hit when someone feels the need to openly declare his HETEROsexuality. Could that be called coming out of the attic?

I'm a candelabra & I love other candelabras, but once dated a menorah --- So what ??

And here I'm stuck with a kerosene lamp.

You should be a-shamas of yourself, pal. When you ride in a limosine on Rosh Hashana, do you openly blow the chauffeur, too?

Only a candle, here, Brad. Ah, well. We do have lots of snow!

Well pjw, better to light that thing than to curse the darkness.... and the snow. Nary a flake here in Southern Missouri.

We've got over a foot here in my part of VA. Most we've had in 6 or 7 years. May help to break up a long drought.

bud-383519 " i am man who loves women. " ~

I'm a chicken, who once Loved a Fox... He took me to dinner one night.

It was indescribable...!!!! So what ?

Major chuckle, Brad. But you're just going to annoy the biblecrats so much.

: )

Jim... : ) God... : ( Me..????

Ever wonder why Jesus accepted all,, only hung around men without ever dating a woman ???

How the hell do you know what he did between the pages ??

I don't recall Jesus ever mentioning the word homosexuality. And I don't think it is clear at all that malakos refers to the passive male homosexual. I don't think there is any reference in the Greek literature where malakos clearly refers to a homosexual person. It is many times used in reference to known heterosexuals in sexual contexts. It could easily be translated as morally weak or lacking self-control. Arsenokoites is similarly not supported being translated as the active partner in a homosexual act. There is much evidence that arsenokoites refers to a dominant homosexual act, but one that is aggresive and degrading, not simply the "active partner. I use this example because it is the language in which Paul of Tarsus wrote.

Brad, ur right, because Jesus never spoke a word of homosexuality,...hell,...he barely mentioned marriage and He only did that because someone asked Him a question and all He said about that was don't divorce because God hates it and if you must divorce do it under two conditions: 1) if someone cheats and 2) if the unbeliever wants to walk away then let them go! Thats ALL He said about any sexual relationship of any kind and the word malakos is as you stated referred to as a male prostitute which is NOT a homosexual person. As you put it, malakos meant the one who is passive in sex! I still say, let God deal with sin, He's the only one who knows how to make it right, whatever needs to be corrected He'll do it on His own time. Lets love each other and get on with our lives.

Well said, Ron.

jim372..... Are you infering that Jesus was Gay and/or a sinner? Please don't bring Him down to our level.

He said He and God are one! He is God!

jim372..... Are you infering that Jesus was Gay and/or a sinner? Please don't bring Him down to our level.

Naw...he was rogering Mary Magdaline nightly. He did have a rather suspicious interest in Thomas, though.

" Naw...he was rogering Mary Magdaline nightly." ?

Please !!!!!