As stimulus funds trickle down, debate heats up

That is most excellent out of the box thinking I have heard on the Health Care Debate.

This is "Funds for Friends," calling it "Stimulus" doesn't make it so.

I wish someone could tell me when Lasik surgery was ever $200. Except when it was in the "experimental phase" (let me experimant on your eyes), I don't believe any significant number of practitioners would have trained, purchse equipment and use proper faciliites to charge $200 per procedure. Sounds like a "rumor become fact" without realistic proof.

If there was no insurance ever, what happens when you get cancer and need many years of doctor treatments?

Suppose the treatment drops from $1million to a mere $300,000 (a 70% drop in price!)

Do you just go bankrupt because you don't have $300k lying around?

No, we need insurance coverage for every American to cover catastrophic emergencies.

Pretty sure the lowest I've ever seen is still about 900 bucks an eye, but the point is taken. However you kind of have to face reality - we don't have a medical free market, we have the Insurance Industry. And very few things are free even for people paying high premiums - there's almost always an out of pocket expense for the more expensive procedures, and co-pays for even the mundane.

Insurance itself is a good idea for dealing with what would otherwise be prohibitively costly procedures.

Carl, read the OP again. He wasn't saying we don't need insurance. He was citing examples of medical practices that aren't covered by insurance and how they lead to free market price wars just like all other products.

It's why the right has been saying this health care proposal doesn't address the actual problem, it's just putting a bandage over the wound and leaving the smoldering bullet in the chest.

But more on topic with the actual story, $65K for 20 students for a motivational speaker is insane. If they wanted a motivational speaker for $65K and had made it available to the entire school that would be different. As-is, they just spent $3,250 per student for a group that is at-risk. I'm assuming by at-risk they mean failing grades. No-pass-no-play already addresses this. If they fail, they're no longer an athlete. That's way more motivation that some rich guy standing on the stage for a couple hours.

Also in the article:

“Racism!!!” a reader who gave no name responded.

This was a comment by someone who couldn't even see the race of the person who made the comment (I mean it's text...not a pic) that $65K was outragous. Obviously this person is a racist towards all who are not black. Makes me sick how racists are the only ones using the racism card. It's like crying wolf.

This School obviously did not need the money given to them if they think $65,000 spent on a motivational speaker is well spent money!!

Carl W wrote "If there was no insurance ever, what happens when you get cancer and need many years of doctor treatments? Suppose the treatment drops from $1million to a mere $300,000 (a 70% drop in price!)"
As sad as reality may be, we should consider not paying for such expensive treatments if they make the cost of insurance for the broad population unaffordable. You describe a decade of cancer treatments. Perhaps we should not be paying for very expensive end of life treatments.

I am sick and tired of athletes getting all the school funding. It is certainly not the best use of the funds. If the school is going to waste $$ that way, then it must not have needed those funds!

On another note--Since big corporations manipulate the market--how can it really be "free"?

But you have to remember how many jobs were "created or saved" for Mr. D. West and his consulting group. That was what the stimulus was all about, right? Not whether it really helped the economy.

Billy Graham's Prayer For Our Nation

THIS MAN SURE HAS A GOOD VIEW OF WHAT'S HAPPENING TO OUR COUNTRIES!

'Heavenly Father, we come before you today to ask your forgiveness and to seek your direction and guidance. We know Your Word says, 'Woe to those who call evil good,' but that is exactly what we have done. We have lost our spiritual equilibrium and reversed our values. We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery. We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare.. We have killed our unborn and called it choice. We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable. We have neglected to discipline our children and called it building self esteem. We have abused power and called it politics... We have coveted our neighbour's possessions and called it ambition.. We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of expression. We have ridiculed the time-honoured values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment. Search us, Oh God, and know our hearts today; cleanse us from every sin and Set us free. Amen!'

Commentator Paul Harvey aired this prayer on his radio program, 'The Rest of the Story,' and received a larger response to this program than any other he has ever aired. With the Lord's help, may this prayer sweep over both our nations and wholeheartedly become our desire for our North American Continent.

Think about this: If you forward this prayer to everyone on your e-mail list, in less than 30 days it would be heard by the world. (It's worth a try!) One Nation Under God..

Countries? Whose the other one?

Rational, over a third of the pacakge ($285 billion) is in tax cuts. The GOP and other right wingers conveniently leave this out when criticizing the stimulus package. The case of D West is information, in that critics heaped scorn upon the program as a rip off, and as it turns out, the critics didn't understand the program. As usual, the loudmouth critics didn't understand the program.

Honest Jo

Bet you any money the prayers won't make any difference.

I checked out my state and I find that most of the money went to science and technology education equipment as well as infrastructure projects.

Irrational american

Yes maybe people pay out of their own pocket for cosmetic surgery. It is mostly the rich that get cosmetic surgery.

I think that this is a wise expenditure of stimulus money.

Not everything a school does is directly related to academics (I mean we're already talking about sports here, come the heck on). There's a lot more going on there than arithmetic, I'm actually kind of impressed the district made this extra effort to address the problems of their students.

I'm actually kind of impressed the district made this extra effort to address the problems of their students.

Especially the 22 student athletes who are being mentored.  That is where the majority of the money is being used.  Isn't it nice that the other students are so willing to allocate their share so a bunch of idiotic jocks don't fail.  That is what you call "community commitment."  I'm thankful that my child isn't part of such a committed community.  I would just as soon have his share of educational dollars be used for more books, better classroom equipment, etc. instead of motivating a few marginal athletes.

it's out of 2.5 million dollars - I don't think any of the other students are starving. It's obviously meant to evaluate the efficacy of these types of programs.

And THE SCHOOL HAS BOOKS. It's pretty much stated out right in the article that this district is considered well funded and affluent. They aren't lacking in materials or teachers. They are directly addressing the failures of a specific demographic of usually high profile student - their athletes. There's more to learning than a textbook. Those issues have already been pretty much addressed, there aren't too many schools lacking books.

In terms of dollars and cents, among blacks and latinos in America who are not affluent, 1 out of 4 will go to prison before the age of 25. That costs society on the order of $250,000 each. (Average sentence is 2-3 years, incarceration costs $60,000 to $120,000 per year, court costs are around $20,000 to $40,000 each. The higher cost is in more affluent counties and states.)

So, if the football team has 22 kids on it, and 10 of them are "at risk" teens, then by the statistics 2.5 (which means 2 or 3 most likely) will cost society $250,000 each. Round it down and call it $600,000.

If the program keeps 1 kid out of the court system, that has an ROI (return on investment) of $4 per dollar spent. If it keeps all of them out of the courts that's an ROI of just under $10 per dollar spent.

The only government spending I know of with an ROI in that range are: 1. The construction of the interstate highway system by the Eisenhower administration, which was higher. 2. NASA's Apollo program and the first 10 years of the space shuttle.

Just to give a sense for it, ROI on military spending is about $0.90 on the dollar in peacetime, lower in wartime. Most spending is in the range of $0.90 to $1.50 return on each dollar spent. ROI for Science R&D (NSF, NIH) runs around $2-$4 per dollar spent. ROI for Apollo & early space shuttle was around $8 per dollar spent. ROI for the interstate system was north of $15 per dollar spent.

History shows that nations that put their tax money into the most strongly positive ROI projects do well economically.

If the school was already well funded then why did they get the money at all. There are plenty of schools across the country the are stuggling greatly the money would have been better spent going to one of these schools.

Capt Tripps

Victim, Victim, Victim mentality! It is the responsibility of our schools to teach academics to students. The rest is the responsibility of their parents! Stop making raising these children and teaching morals the responsibility of teachers and schools!

$65000 would have paid for another teacher, or perhaps a couple of aides. That could have made for a bit more one on one time with these at risk kids for a whole year!

Warehousing these kids in schools with thousands of students is where we're going wrong. Giving more kids a taste of success is how you get them to strive for more. A score of 98% feels pretty good when it's the best grade in the class. But when you have to share that honor with 100 other kids, it makes it not so special.

Schools have always had a hand in raising kids. Hell, they spend 40% of their time in school or doing school related activites.

Yes Presidend should have given all the money to Cheney friends at Halliburton that would really help the economy. Stupid Republican clowns!

The Stimulus money was spent on cash for clunkers, extending unemployment benefits and giving the middle class a tax cut. But I am sure it would have been better spent giving the rich another needless tax cut right?

The Stimulus money was spent on cash for clunkers, extending unemployment benefits and giving the middle class a tax cut. But I am sure it would have been better spent giving the rich another needless tax cut right?

good posting, John Toradze.

I think the point is, they have all the books and supplies they need, now the problems come from other areas. Very few schools in the US lack books and supplies, even in the poorest urban neighborhoods. Nowadays it's the buildings themselves, the quality of the faculty, and the lives of the students that most affect learning. This program addresses the latter, which is just as important, if not more so, than the rest.

the lives of the students that most affect learning. This program addresses the latter, which is just as important, if not more so, than the rest.

What an exclusive school district. To be able to mentor 22 student athletes so they don't fail in an effort to address the importance of the academics is admirable. How would it be to have only 22 students in a high school - all of them athletes. One would think in that rich an educational environment they wouldn't need mentoring. One would assume they already had lofty goals set and were working towards them already.

Did anyone stop to think that this is evaluatory? That if it works on this scale they'll expand it? It's obvious they are targeting student athletes, but why would they go district wide with a program before knowing whether or not it works? It's 3% of their total Stimulus funding for Christ's sake, they are hardly pouring it down the drain. More schools need similiar programs IMO, targeting students of specific need. The general teach them all the same approach just doesn't mesh with the reality that each student is unique.

Capt Tripps

Victim, Victim, Victim mentality! It is the responsibility of our schools to teach academics to students. The rest is the responsibility of their parents! Stop making raising these children and teaching morals the responsibility of teachers and schools!

Our school district is facing a shortfall of $400,000 this year. That is about $400 per student. No new textbooks, no field trips, no school supplies, no teacher in-service to implement new ideas. Plus teachers will face a pay cut of about $600 per year.

Money well spent.

The school should account for the effectiveness of their $65k expenditure. Compare some metric with the previous ten classes. It's more likely that hiring this coach for a does little more than improve the vague sense of self-esteem for short while. It's cheaper to pass out candy, or better, pay the students for work that they do.

Please, schools have never just been about the academics. "Back in the day" they actively taught life skills to students and considered it partially they're responsibility to turn children into productive adult citizens. And no one screamed and moaned. These days schools are nearly stripped bare of anything unrelated to passing standardized testing and, well, easy to see how well a job we're doing with that approach. Kids spend 40% in or doing activities related to school until the time they're 18, it's ignorant to dismiss the impact it has on their lives outside of pure academics.

This is frivolous & wasteful. I assume these at-risk youth, after listening to this $65K motivational speaker do his thing, they must go back to their same broken down homes, lives, single parent who is probably on drugs, welfare etc. While this speaker jets off into the sunset. Absolutely insane. But let's hope that Mr. $65K who flies in & out of their lives like a breeze has more impact on them than the everyday reality of their dysfunctional lives. Hopefully a bullet won't kill them before they get out of the ghetto to give Mr. Ob his roi. Redistribute the wealth to all the folks who voted me in office---who cares how inept or ineffective it is---because no one is holding me accountable.

yes we could have spent that money giving large corporations a big tax cut. Trickle down economics has worked so well in the past!

"Montclair is a largely affluent community..."

The whole point is: WHY is an affluent community getting $2.23 mill in stimulus money to dream up ways to spend it when there are hundreds of schools across the country with buildings in grave disrepair, not enough funds to purchase text books, etc???

Must be another "pet project" of some Congressperson.

Oh well...I guess its still better than the bat gates mentioned in another article on stimulus spending.

Motivate the students? Gee-I thought Obama did that for free a month or so ago-how about this affluent school district just make the kids watch it on Youtube over and over :)

Excellent, well thought out comments, Capt Tripps.

it's not trickle down, it's a direct entitlement. Differences people, they are important. Trickle down would be give this money to some rich guy and expect HIM to fund programs at the school.

Capt'n. Ummmm, isn't that what is happening? Tax the rich to make these programs happen?? The liberal mantra.... let those who make so much give to those who have so little. So in essence the "rich" are funding the programs at the school... just a thought.

No, it's not at all what is happening (it's a little of both philosophies, the same as it's always been)

Not only the rich pay taxes - I have the W2's to prove it. And it's a lot more proportional towards the amount of the countries wealth they control than you'd think.

I think that's kind of their point - athletes are specifically targeted here because them actually making a living playing a sport is minuscule, yet many of them are probably disregarding their education and expecting to make it big. Here's a guy who played but focused on learning and made himself successful. They could learn a lot, especially about tempering their expectations and not throwing away the various educational opportunities their athleticism will afford them.

So they put more emphasis on the 22 at-risk athletes and ignore the larger group of at-risk students. And all this time I thought that the athletes were students first and the athletic programs were secondary. Most school districts require the athletes to maintain a minimum level of academic standards to be able to participate in athletics. So much for "the greater good."

it's 3% of the funds they received. How exactly does that equate to ignoring their other students? Have you gone and looked to see what else they funded with the money? No, your taking one small program and making all kinds of false assumptions. Not to mention athletes are usually just ignored or pushed thru the system because they bring in revenue to the schools. Nice to see a little concern over these kid's future since 99% of them will never play as a pro.

I'm halfway down this page and I realize that Capt Tripps will argue FOR any Liberal point, and AGAINST any Conservative point on this board...regardless of how ridiculous. Capt Tripps is a zombie kool-aid drinker, completely incapable of finding any common ground. To argue that $65K spent on 22 athletes and their feelings is an appropriate way to spend taxpayer dollars, while disregarding the entire point of the article, is the Liberal Leftist way. You people scare me...do you even work? I would guess you're either completely loaded from luck or bloodlines or perhaps a job in Hollywood, or you're on the dole, in college, and haven't paid any taxes yet. Either way, no hard-working American would agree with how the stimulus is being spent.

Or maybe I'm arguing that this particular expenditure is merited? Good lord when did having an opinion equate to kool aid drinking?

And I'm 27, 2 kids, college educated, and have been working since I was 14. Your assumptions seem alot more zombi-esque than my response to this article but I guess in your world all liberals fit into nice, neat boxes and only conservatives work or paytaxes.

You are 27 college educated abd have 2 kids and have been working since you were 14 WOW

I congratulate you I am 50 been working since before you were born i have raised more kids and have more grandkids then what you are talking about and i still would not support 65k to "tutor JOCKS" who wont have a chance to make it in professional sports, I would rather spend the money on 650 students to make them better members of society, and if i was gonna spend 65k i sure as hell would not spend it on someone who only spent 1 quarter in the game to start with.

65K isn't much?It's my tax money and a heck of a lot more that I make on my fixed retirement income.

Well, considering we pay something like 2.5 trillion dollars in taxes every year, yeah it's a small amount.

Capt Tripps,

There is no way you could be college educated & say such a thing. If a person spends more money than they have sooner or later it has to be paid back including interest or you go bankrupt. Simple math. You cannot keep spending more money than you have. If you do, then you are insane or out of touch with reality. Sooner or later reality will sober you.

Despite your protestation, your comments show you are a bleeding heart liberal.

No, I'm a realist.

Apparently bleeding heart = caring about the situations of other Americans and actively seeking solutions to the problems they face. I'd wear that badge proudly Intel/Ind.

I & I.......excellent post.

as a former teacher, I apprecaite what you do. Keep up the good work.

thanks

Wow!

We can no longer depend on parents to motivate and/or "control" their children.

So now we have to become a "Nanny State". Liberals are really amazing. Instead of making the parents who have kids they cant afford responsible, now WE have to take care of them. What a nightmare you Liberals have caused for us.

First of all, Intelligent and Independent, thank you for the job you do. Sad to say however, I would guess that many of the posters screaming about this story would actually prefer that those kids did end up spending their life in jail, even if it costs more becuase they are just plain mean racists and assume we're talking about black kids, not to mention that the money is going to a black man. Of course all of them seem to ignore the fact that this money is going to a company with a paid staff and not an individual, so it really doesn't come to much for him personally at all. They scream "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" but this is the way they respond to a man who has done just that? Pitiful. To your second point about it being a very complex problem, I agree totally. But conservatives never want to think anything is complex - just bomb it or exploit it. The reactions show that those people would rather deny things like this on the basis of their self righteous ideology than do what works. And living in a country of such hateful CRACKERS as these people show themselves to be, it's pretty easy to see why disadvantaged kids (their parent's are not their fault!) would feel alienated and unwanted in this culture.

Intelligent and Independent-

I certainly applaud your efforts and agree with some of your comments, but I am tired of paying for $65,000 band-aids to make sure little Johnny Smith gets a better life because no one has the stones to hold Mr. and Mrs. Jones accountable for both their actions and lack of action. Our politicians continue to throw money at problems instead of finding the root cause. A major, major problem with this country today is the lack of accountability and discipline. From the work place to the little league field (where everybody gets a trophy no matter if they contributed or not), the nut don't fall from the tree. Show me a kid that lacks discipline, and I'll show you a parent (that is of course if you can find them) that is a carbon copy. All of it - every bit of it - starts at home. That's where the root cause is. Fix that problem and a whole lot of other problems will miraculously disappear.

What if we stopped subsidizing the parents who don't work ( two or three generations worth), actually got them to volunteer somewhere ( your school, perhaps?) before they received a check and got back to insuring that it starts at home. What if those who get a "government issued check started making progress and were rewarded for such activity???. Instead we shift the responsibility and BLAME to others. The failure of the student started long before he entered the school building. It started with the current national standard of rewarding nothingness-- entitlement.

What makes you think he would be better suited than oprah? She could show them how she gives rapists and molesters ready access to an exclusive girls school.

This is so true, Rob. The general public doesn't have a clue what our schools are like today, especially our public schools. Many politicians haven't sat through even one full class, yet they consider themselves experts on the problems in education today.

I know a lot of people think I'm whining, or that I'm a bad teacher, but nothing could be further from the truth. I'm describing the reality in our schools today. We should be more afraid of the quality of student we're turning loose on society each year than all of the terrorists in the world.

What's really sad is when I think of the students who ARE capable of learning and who can pay attention, etc., and the frustration they feel while sitting in a class of students who are reading 5 or 6 grade levels below them and who create such a disruptive environment that no one can learn. Even though I believe in a strong public education system, if I had a child of average or above-average intelligence and skills, I would put them in an excelling charter or private school, provided I could afford it.

The problem with you "teachers" is that you've forgotten to teach. You're not a social engineer, even though the NEA would have you believe otherwise.

ron,ron,ron......results will be the proof. liberal thinkers believe everything should be done by the funding sources of public schools. example, lets provide breakfast for the students, why should the parents concern themselves.

trading for votes

I have new insight - I always thought they were buying votes through the promises of give-away programs.

I'm a liberal

Mao is NOT my hero. Che is NOT my hero. What you say is offensive and beyond being nonsense.

Perhaps I should ask the rhetorical question

Why is it that conservatives like to make stupid people their heros, like GW Bush, Ronald Reagan and Sarah Palin?

Scott

You are delusional who ever said that Mao is the hero of Liberals? I guess you say the first thing that comes out of your @$$hole!

Because they secretly want to be like them. Liberals used to regularly employ such tactics, and for many years that wastheir preferred method of political warfare. They have learned, however, that it is much more effective to infiltrate and fight the fight from within. Secretly, however, many liberals still appreciate and honor those who choose to exercise violence to make their point.

Because the best way to force your opinion on everyone else is to kill everyone over the age of 12.