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The Federal Aviation Administration has revoked the licenses of two Northwest Airlines pilots who overflew the Minneapolis airport on a flight from San Diego.
Just punishment for those who would risk others lives because they were "busy."
#1 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:56 PM EDTI'm sorry, but the "laptop" story still doesn't add up to me. We're talking about TWO pilots being so engrossed in TWO different laptops that they "lost" an hour and a half, that they failed to hear repeated calls from ATC, that they failed to hear calls on the emergency channel and failed to see a flashing amber or red light, that they failed to hear the intercom from the cabin crew, and that they failed to hear someone knocking on the door and that they failed to notice on the GPS or radar that they were well past their destination.
That is just too much for me to believe. Pilots are extremely time-sensitive because of the emphasis that all airlines are putting on "on time" arrivals. To just "forget" to start your descent and keep on truckin' for an hour and a half is just too much for me to believe.
I hate to be this judgmental. but I honestly believe they were asleep. And I'm glad the FAA pulled their tickets.
They should not have been fired. Suspension only. No harm no foul. Just delayed everyone about 15 minutes. Ye without sin cast thy first stone.
Paalease! No harm no foul? So I suppose we should let bus drivers and taxi drivers do the same? Pilots are glorified bus drivers in the sky. Fire their asses!
I'm with you Morris, I would rather have a pilot using a laptop than an over-the-road trucker. I wonder after reading all these comments here whether people understand most of the time the plane is on auto-pilot anyways.
Suspend them for 90 days or something, but fire them is a little over the top for something I would surmize happens frequently.
My only response is: I have heard of drunken pilots who retained their license.
Good, I hate pilots, they should revoke their lives. j/k
I really don't care about this story.
"There are no federal rules that specifically ban pilots' use of laptops or other personal electronic devices as long as the plane is flying above 10,000 feet, said Diane Spitaliere, an FAA spokeswoman."
That may be true, but what about poor judgement. As for the comment about it being an hour and a half, it is a lot less than that. The air Bus cruises at about 454 knots which is about 7.5 miles a minute. at that cruise speed, the time to cover 150 miles is about about 20 minutes. The round trip out and back was only 40 minutes, plus 20 minutes for the approach and landing.
My question is who was monitoring the radios. That is mandantory.
To all airline pilots:
Please do not engage in watching porn in the cockpit, the viruses contained on those sites clearly has an effect on the guages, alarms, auto-pilot, and pilots ability to see a big city....
They should forensically examine the laptops to see if they were in deed working on them. That would confirm immediately if they were doing what they said they were doing and not sleeping. You don't miss messages from the control tower or cause F-16's to ready for intercept....ever.
The airlines already stated right after this happened that they frequently lose radio contact for extended periods with airplanes.
I can't wait for the lynchmob posting here to start demanding that ships' Captains keep both hands on the wheel too for their entire 7 day cruise duration.
They should have just admitted their mistake and beg for forgiveness. They probably would have got suspension then. But lying multiple times was just too much.
Maybe this will end all the 'union based' articles about pilots needing their nap time also.
cant believe some of the morons in this post. no harm no foul. so i suppose unless the crash the plane and kill all on board we should just forget it. and to the idiot who would rather a pilot use a laptop than a trucker. the trucker doesnt have autopilot meat head. and the pilot is responsible for hundreds more lifes than the trucker.
lose of license and they should also be fined the max $1000 for every violation the faa comes up with. i can think of at least 10 easily.
This is why I hate unions, the union is trying its hardest to have two incompetent people keep their jobs. Do you really think there aren't two other pilots in the world who don't break protocol for airline pilots, but are still flying some regional carrier and would just love the opportunity to fly for a major airline. Fire their asses and give the job to someone who obeys the rules.......my life and valuable time depends on it.
Voter-in-LA, strangely enough, you make a good point. Captains on ships don't do much in regard to steering ships. The Mates navigate the ships. Don't get me wrong, the Captain has a whole host of other responsibilities, and he is ultimately "responsible" for safe passage and delivery of cargo, human or other wise. I heard a funny story where a cruise ship passenger asked a Captain if the ship was on auto pilot at night. He responded , "I've never found the bridge at night." LOL!
Folks, in regard to the pilots' suspension of their licenses. I think this is ridiculous! These pilots made a mistake, but people make mistakes on their jobs. That's just life. Yes, these two should be censured in some way, but pardon the pun, taking away their licenses is way overboard.
No Im not buying this story for a minute! Youre asking us to believe that 2 experienced pilots were so busy that they didnt realize what was going on? C'mon.......
Where were the stewardesses? Why didnt they beat on the door? Was one of the stewardesses in there with them? Hmmmm..........
I think there is more to this story than we are being told....
Roger, uhhhhhh ........ Flight Attendants haven't been called stewardesses in like 30 years. Where've you been?
Sandra, uhhhhh......So what, get off the political correctness. I still call the mail delivery person the Mailman, so what
Sandra and Voter-in-LA - you are IDIOTS!!! A ship in the ocean does not travel at speeds in excess of 450 miles per hour. Plus, a ship is on the surface of the Earth. It is not a cylindrical metal tube flying at 37,000 feet. These two pilots deserve to lose their licenses. How would you feel if you or a loved one were on that plane and it crashed, killing all on board?
Pilots are paid very well. There is no excuse for sleeping, playing on a laptop, or any other frivolous activity while that plane is in the air. I don't buy the need for pilots that are flying anywhere in North America to need a nap in mid-flight, either. How many other workers need a nap in the middle of a normal work shift?
Make an example of these pilots, revoke their licenses and fire them. The public has the right to be able to fly under the safest possible conditions, which doesn't include napping pilots.
Sandra, this is a true story....a drunk Russian skipper once ended up on the wrong side of New Zealand. Although he could see the city lights, the vessel could not dock unless it sailed around the whole island.
As for the pilots, I think they might have been playing Warcraft.
Delta has a strict policy on using laptops on the flight deck. These guys admitted to just that, so, they must be terminated!
I've read a few comments saying that this incident caused a mere 15 minutes of inconvenience...they overshot by an hour and a half...that means an hour and a half plus!
The pilots did not respond to controllers, the only plausible reason for not responding outside of a hijacking is physical incapacity. the reason why the pilots don't think it would be "useful" to hand over their laptops for inspection is that the FAA would be able to effectively prove that the laptop cover is false. *I am a systems analyst -- the computer records whenever it is active so it could be proven that they were not using the laptops ever so easily*
Rodger - they were beating on the door...the pilots did not respond to that or calls.
As far as taking a nap, the cabin crew consists of three people in commercial airliners. They are all there for each others' relief and it is quite common for one person to use the cabin accomodations to lay down and take a nap. It is, however, EXTREMELY uncommon for all to take a nap at the same time.
This is a sad excuse for an extroardinary situation and yes, they got their just deserves for not doing their jobs.
They are still not telling the truth about what they were doing. They should tell the truth and make changes in company and FAA policies to allow pilots to take power naps to fight off fatigue. If they did this from the get go then it wouldn't has gotten so blown out of proportion. I do question both pilots sleeping though. One should always be alert and vigilant.
The story advanced by the NW cockpit crew must be tryue because:
a) if they fell asleep every lily-livered unionist would be defending them against the evil capitalist master who created a schedule that 'forced them' to be exhausted;
b) if they fell asleep at the end of a 4 day trip with minimal rest - again - the human factors people will come out of the woodwork and cast all sorts of doubt as to the reasons why they fell asleep - and the media will come to the pilots defense because of the evil company and its scheduling practices;
c) the fact they admitted to doing something which gives the company the inescapable right to terminate them - for cause - and under their agreed upon union work rules- means it is true. End of Story.
Unless they were doing else like screwing an FA or some other morally questionable act - there is no reason not to believe these guys.
If they fell asleep the union could get them off with a suspension - but what they admitted to - the union has zero ability to accomplish anything. No one admits to a terminable offense if they can admit to one which would simply result in their suspension. Unless its the truth and the truth is important to them . . .
Dave, I was just teasing Roger .... lighten up -- Geez!
Scales67, there are a lot more maritime accidents that happen that you hear nothing about because there are not as many lives at stake. Just yesterday, a Japanese naval ship collided with a freighter and they're both on fire. You don't see any thing in the news about it today, though. Why? Because 100+ lives weren't lost. I stand by my statement. Yes, the Pilot and First Officer screwed up, and I think they should pay consequences, but taking away their licenses -- to me -- is too harsh a punishment. I've been in HR for years. Trust me when I tell you that if it was YOUR job, and you screwed up (and we all do), you'd want me on your side. There have been a few times where employee's screwed up and the managers wanted to terminate, and I was able to provide reasons WHY these folks shouldn't be terminated, and saved their jobs -- WHEN I thought it was warranted from an HR perspective.
For me personally -- if I -- or a loved one, had been on that NW (Delta) flight, I'd still feel the same. Not to mention that I'd be asking for some FREE tickets for the future ;). No one was harmed. This is a gross over reaction, in my "idiot" humble opinion ;)
All,
I too am not fond of pilots not paying attention in the cockpit. Going about 400 mph, you really got to pay attention. I'm a small time private pilot, and I'm hyper-aware at all times. Of course, I am a rank amateur compared to these guys. Believe me, I've seen the testing, training and qualifications of these airline transport pilots (crazy difficult)!
Moreover, flying a commercial large aircraft becomes a bit routine, after you've done it for many years. I've heard that it's like being high-tech bus driver. Pilots are going to mentally wander, it would be just about impossible to devote the kind of mental attention that most people feel the job deserves, all the time. Most of the time it's just boredom.
However, there has got to be a minimum degree of attention mantained, just to be safe. I am not overly critical of the pilots, they were 15 minutes late to report at a checkpoint. Not unreasonable that they could have made a mental lapse.
However, I'd rather be forgiving of the pilots and get the truth! With the truth we have a chance of understanding and making a useful change. I don't buy the story that they are giving, it's just most defensible from their point. And these pilots will face a tough career future even if they get their licenses back.
Had these guys just fessed up the first time and told the truth, I would have been OK with a suspension without pay. BUT since they have now given 3 different explanations about what happened, I think they need to be fired now. I wonder what they were really up to? Maybe joining the "Mile High Club"?
I don't care what the excuse is, the bottom line is that they were not paying attention. I can't talk on my cell phone while I drive how is it possible that engrossed in my laptop while flying a commercial airliner is an excusable offense? Yes, they have auto pilot, but there is no excuse for missing the EMERGENCY channel texts. It is their job to see those texts and they simply were not doing their job. Maybe they can get a new job scheduling, apparently it was more important then the passengers on the plane, or the multiple radio and emergency channels that they missed.
I think they were engrossed in each other, if you know what I mean!
I've read a few comments saying that this incident caused a mere 15 minutes of inconvenience...they overshot by an hour and a half...that means an hour and a half plus!
Hmmm don't know where you're reading, everything I've seen says 150 miles. If that's an hour and a half flying time, then they must have been driving on an Interstate (i.e. it was 60mph - don't think many planes stay airborne at tnhat speed.
As for Sales67, how often don't you read about a ferry sinking? Exxon Valdez? Tankers running aground? Just because YOUR line of work doesn't involve maritime issues doesn't mean they don't exist.
I dont think a service award was due..............
#2 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:58 PM EDTgood decision by the FAA (for once)
#3 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:00 PM EDTI think a more severe punishment would have been to tie them both to a chair and force them to watch videos of Nancy Pelosi having sex....
KPRO -
That's a horrible thing to say; however, give me waterboarding over that scenario any day.
ummm...nevermind..lol
tom, did you have to say that? i just threw up in my mouth a little! EWWWWWWW
I have never laughed so hard!!! Thanks for your comment
Hey. I'm not a Cheney basher by any means but I have to admit that even the image of him in his underpants makes me a little nauseous.
I am relieved that immediate appropriate action has been taken. Those pilots probably wouldn't want their family members on a plane where the pilots weren't focused on passenger well-being. Impaired pilots and now distracted pilots.........where is the ethics/integrity in doing a job and doing it right......Look at the resources they used while others were trying to contact them........... to have all those lives in those irresponsible hands.
#4 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:02 PM EDTThank God...
#5 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:03 PM EDTIt is about time the FAA finally did something. These pilots were obviously not doing their job. With the way things are going........ baggage fees, bathroom fees, blanket fees, drink fees, food fees, music instrument fees, etc, if I can drive it I will do it. I don't go overseas so I would rather drive than go thru all that nonsense with flying. The airline industry is gouging the public.
#6 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:06 PM EDTNo they shouldn't be revoked and fired. I can see firing them if they were sleeping or drinking on the job. A suspention is more than sufficient in my opinion. I guess it's practically impossible now to make a mistake and keep your job if your an licensed airline transport pilot. The FAA is doing this to redeem themselves for their prior screw ups.
#7 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:06 PM EDTare you kidding? must be! this wasn't a mistake, it was gross and deliberate negligence.
Wrong. They weren't being truthful, that's reason enough to revoke their licence. When people's lives are at stake you better have a better excuse then "we were arguing."
It's about time someone didn't do the typical responseby being wishy washy and backtracking on their initial conviction. They got what they deserved.
Wanna chat and play on your computer? Get a desk job where you're not in charge of people's lives.
They are lucky they didn't run into another plane while they were so "distracted".
I have no sympathy for "stupidity or arrogance". there are a lot of pilots on furlough right now.
severe punishment, yup, but so are the consequences of not paying attention to the airplane--that's their job
Northwest102- Are you kidding me!?! These pilots deserve to have their licences revoked. They didn't just make a "mistake" as you call it, they were grossly negligent. The lives of the rest of the crew and the passangers was in their hands and they chose to ignore the "no laptops in the cockpit" rule set by the FAA. They heard people trying to contact them and ignored it. I for one want pilots who take their jobs seriously and pay attention to the fine details of flying. They got exactly what they deserved.
Excuse me, this is a BIG mistake. I suppose if your surgeon decided he wanted to check his email or Facebook account during surgery that would be okay?
I just am not buying the laptop thing. I think they had something nefarious in mind, far more serious than gross negligence. Everyone knows that pilots hate Canadians. I'm just saying it's possible that they were heading up there in an attempt to release carbon dioxide into their atmosphere in order to melt the glaciers and flood the Yukon. That's right, I said it. I think they're in bed with the insurance companies, Walmart, John Voit and Charmin.
Well the chances of them hitting another aircraft would be remote. The onboard crash avoidance would have alerted the pilots but I suppose then again they weren't alerted by air traffic control trying to raise them. I don't know about negligence because there is no specific ban on laptops over 10,000 feet. Perhaps now there might be which in this case I support. It's funny that someone says play on the computer. The entire cockpit is one glass computer with a yoke. It's really a shame that both of them were taking part in this. If one was just listening this would have been easily adverted and they would both have their jobs.
Well guys, now that you're unimployed, McDonalds has some mops that you can fly.
#8 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:08 PM EDTBut McDonalds won't let you play on your laptop while you're on the clock.
No but they can sure argue or have heated discussions about scheduling policy, (while people are waiting for their food). I see people in Micky D's and other fast food chains all the time that aren't paying attention to what they are doing. These guys should fit right in.
I'm sorry I don't believe the pilots. I don't think work related information was being viewed on those laptops.
#9 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:10 PM EDTNorthwest 102, how do you know they weren't sleeping? I never bought the I am working on the laptop excuse myself and, apparently, neither did the FAA.
#10 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:10 PM EDTCome on Chris, you're a guy....what could hold your attention for that length of time???
You know they were having sex...or watching porn...or having sex while watching porn...
I also believe they both were involved in 'something' that had nothing to do with flying, arguing, or laptops...
My guess is the FAA knows exactly what happened but they are not making it public for fear of a airline backlash.
There's not all that much room on the "flight deck" as they call it.
Well if it's not that then they were sleeping. What happened to one man off, one man on? They BOTH can't be sleeping! The pilot that landed in the hudson river hit a pack of birds that caused problems with engine. Thank God that the crew of that plane was alert because it could have had a very bad ending.
These two got lucky...so did the rest of the people on that plane.
LU, I think it was Warcraft.
There's not all that much room on the "flight deck" as they call it.
Come on Tom, not much room in a Mustang either but you can get it done if you want too...
I think the co-pilot "took the stick", so to speak. Northwest might want to have a camera inside the cockpit to make sure these types of trysts don't occur onboard again.
this suspension should serve as a "wake-up" call to other pilots. it's pretty severe, but, so are the consequences of inattentiveness.
so much for "arrogance and stupidity." that'll cost somewhere in the neighborhood of a $100,000 + per year and a career down the toilet.
these two used the "...brilliance of a burned out light bulb..." dumb sh_ts aaaaaaaaaagggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
in today's economy, they're easily replaceable; lot's of pilots on furlough, you think
#11 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:10 PM EDTuh, more like about $35,000/year.
pilots salaries have been severely cut over the last 5-10 years.
Well, well, well - I wondered when we would hear reports of aviation's version of 'texting while driving'...
#12 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:15 PM EDTBravo to the FAA!
#13 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:17 PM EDTIt's a shame that we can't have the FAA weed out the wreckless and irresponsible in congress. Good decision.
#14 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:18 PM EDTI hope you mean reckless. I kinda like my pilots to be wreckless which would mean without wrecks..... no?
Ha - good one, Voter-in-LA.
So I guess it's OK to use your laptop in the air if you're a pilot or co-pilot while working on a "scheduling update" for the "crews", which probably was with a wireless connection, since it wouldn't make sense not to be logged on to a network to do that, and trusting the autopilot, which is advertised as being sensitive to wireless electronics, while getting paid to fly a plane.
Did they receive extra pay for multi-tasking??
#15 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:19 PM EDTThe scheduling software was likely able to work without being connected to the internet.
SoCal: I hope so. Or else I would be upset that they can use the internet on board and I can't.
It is beyond belief that these two pilots could have been so stupid as to risk the lives of innocent people while they worked on their laptops! They will have a lot more time to do that now.
They got off easy with only revocation of their licenses. Hopefully this will be a wake up call for all pilots who think they can abuse the rules and risk passengers lives.
In the future, if my plane is late and the captain has not given me a reason, I will certainly be asking the flight attendant what is going on!
#16 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:20 PM EDTHere's the deal: The FAA doesn't believe their story. The FAA isn't going to come right out and say that; but read between the lines. They bring these guys in for a review of the events in question. They review flight data and voice recorders. Then literally within days they revoke (not suspend) their licenses.
I think the FAA does not believe their story about being "distracted" is credible. They think the pilots are lying and they canned them.
#17 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:21 PM EDTGood! There should be consequences for one's actions and this seems appropriate for people entrusted with lives of their passengers. Heck, they didn't even respond to attempts to contact them? Are they brain-dead in addition to being stupidly negligent? They can probably find jobs flying elsewhere.....just not with U.S. commercial airlines.
#18 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:21 PM EDTThe FAA had no choice but to act swiftly here. The message is clear: they dangerously shirked their responsibility to all those people on board that aircraft. Due to the fact that they had no radio contact and were outside their flight plan, they could very well have encountered another aircraft, putting many more lives in danger. To revoke their licenses was the right thing to do.
#19 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:24 PM EDTIf you get a DUI and no one is injured, you face less stiff penalties than if you are in an accident.
Again, no harm was caused.
How could you possibly say the punishment fits the crime for these veteran pilots with unblemished records prior to this episode???
#20 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:25 PM EDTSo, do these guys have to have a bad record before action is taken against them? They violated company policy as well as a handful of FAA regulations. Not to mention the fact that few believe their story that they were so engrossed with scheduling software on their laptops. Its hard to make up a plausible excuse for this.
I'm sorry, but the FAA made the correct decision and these guys should serve as warnings to others who would take their duties on the flight deck too lightly..
License revocation alone was not enough... the should also have had their U.S. passports revoked so they can't start flying for foreign airlines, and each been fined a full year's salary.
#21 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:27 PM EDTIt will come out that they were asleep and on auto-pilot. They would have heard the calls from ground control if they were viewing porn or having sex.
#22 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:27 PM EDTI get quite engrossed when working on my computer as well but I still hear the phone ring or someone calling me from the other room. I don't buy any of the "sex" theories. They had to be asleep. Even while having sex we all can hear the phone ring. We might ignore it, but we still hear it. These pilots were to experienced to do something that stupid and purposly ignore the radio calls.
I DO buy the sex theories. Never underestimate the stupidity or arrogance of people in powerful positions (double entendre intended).
totally agree! i've thought that since this story first aired!
License revocation alone was not enough... the should also have had their U.S. passports revoked so they can't start flying for foreign airlines, and each been fined a full year's salary.
#23 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:28 PM EDTWhere are all those Newsvine Airbus pilots. When this story broke there were scores of 14-year-olds claiming to be Airbus pilots and telling why the FAA would do nothing because it was all perfectly legal.
I just putter along in my little old PA-22 that was built in 1953 (I was built in 1943). And you know, I have never fallen asleep. And I have never had to lie about anything I ever did in the cockpit (oh well, maybe just a couple of things.)
#24 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:29 PM EDTWhere are all those Newsvine Airbus pilots. When this story broke there were scores of 14-year-olds claiming to be Airbus pilots and telling why the FAA would do nothing because it was all perfectly legal.
Boy, thats just a little bit of an embelishment. There was nobody saying it was "all perfectly legal."
If you are who I am thinking of (from said other threads), some of your posts were corrected for gross inaccuracies and incorrect "facts."
In a post 9-11 world, there had to be a lot of people very worried about that plane, crew and passengers. The situation room was notified and fighter planes were scrambled. I can not imagine what was going through the minds of those air traffic controllers or other pilots frantically trying to make contact with this flight. It is a terrible thing to watch a potential tragedy in the making and not be able to do anything to stop it. I grew up with pilots including my mother. Great responsibility is given to these individuals and tremendous damage can be done if, for just a, moment they are not paying attention. Technology is wonderful but it must be guided by clear thinking, alert intelligent and skilled human beings. There is no substitute for human judgement. These individuals should never be allowed into any cockpit ever again.
#25 - Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:30 PM EDTAll of the men in my family, husband, and three sons are pilots, I was a flight attendant for over twenty years. My question is what kind of schedule the pilots were flying, what was their crew rest, how long had they been away from home etc. Crew fatigue has long been an issue, constantly addressed seldom fixed. With that in mind, if fatigue was not an issue and they were on their laptops they should be fired. Pilot jobs are so difficult to come by now, these guys should have been counting their blessings they have a job and paying stict attention to what is going on in their cockpit, they certaintly should not have both been simutaneously on their laptops. The pilots who work for my airline are not even allowed to read a newspaper in the cockpit. I hate to see anyone fired but the industry cannot afford to have the careless attitudes these two exhibited without severe action
Meg, get your facts straight, NO fighter planes were scrambled. What potential tragedy in the making? Passengers being late for their connections? Enough of the chicken little routine.
bill S.-1382646
It's pretty clear that you have never flown a plane in your life. Pilots have one primary responsibility and that is the safety of their passengers. These pilots neglected that responsibility and in doing so, put all of their passengers at risk thereby breaking the trust. These guys got exactly what they deserved. The fact that the result of no body being injured or killed was achieved, it does excuse the negligence and poor judgement exercised by these two pilots. In fact most pilots would tell you that the more experienced the pilots, the graver that this situation becomes. They should no better.
For the record, I also do not buy the idea that these pilots were so engrossed in their computers that they failed to hear the alarms, phone rings and pounding on the cabin door. I can tell you that when emergency communications, or cockpit alarms go off, you can hear them distinctly even with headsets on. They simply igored them or were asleep and in either case, should be fired. Based upon your post, I take it that if you were drunk or otherwise impaired and got in your automobile, drove down the road and were stopped by a cop, you should not have your license revoked because no harm no foul. Really poor logic there, Bill.
bill
Scrambling aircraft does not necessarily mean the planes left the ground. The word scramble in this instance means to "hurry" or "rush". When military aircraft are scrambled it means that the pilots rush to their plane, start their engines, and taxi to the runway where they await the order to take off. In this case those orders never came. They were told instead to stand down. If communication had not been established when it did the planes would have been ordered off the ground and we could have a very nasty situation today. Don't try to pass this off with a "Oh well. S**t happens attitude. This was a very serious incident.
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