Guns OK in Arizona bars starting Wednesday

Dodge City - here we come!

If I read this right, people openly carrying guns won't be allowed in, but people with concealed weapons will(?) Seems odd: I'd rather know who has the weapons.

People carry guns in bars all the time, you just don't know it because they are consealed. Gang bangers always carry their guns consealed and there is no permit for a convicted felon to have a gun. People who don't care about the law, won't care about this one either. I was a bartender in wisconsin and my consealed gun was not the only gun in the bar everytime I was working. I could see the but of a gun in someone's belt and I saw little .38s in purses a lot. There never were any " shootouts " that you all are paranoid of. The " old west " was not like what you see on TV. there is no consealed carry law in Wisconsin and people carry guns a lot. yet the only time you hear about a shooting it is criminals and gangs. They are giving law abiding gun owners a bad name. How about we all start calling anti-gun groups comunists, would you like that? After all, it is the " I don't like it, so YOU can't do it" mentality of the comunists that makes it that way. If you don't like it move to france where they surrender at the drop of a hat or to europe where they don't really know what freedom is or it is what the queen says it is. An armed society is a polite society. and that is a fact!!

I would be wiling to bet more people will be murdered in Chicago and New York where handguns are banned than all the Arizona bars combined.

Plaxico Burress heard about this. He wants to play for the Cardinals when he gets out.

And Rightman1 is absolutely correct. You people have NO IDEA how many ILLEGAL guns are already carried into bars. Besides, if you READ the story, the owner of the bar can ban them if he wishes.

First, I want to say I am for gun rights. Good, that's out of the way.

I have seen the whole Chicago, Washington DC, and NYC comparison in several places throughout this discussion. I would like to point out a few things why this comparison about the large cities and their gunlaws cannot be compared to other areas of the country.

1.) Most everyone thinks that gangs are dangerous and bad. Having the hand gun restriction in these cities does not stop gang related violence, that is true. But what it does do is allow the cops to do more searches, seizures, and arrests.

2.) Black on Black or Latino on Latino death rates are pretty consistent. In other words, people of the same color kill more of their own people than others. Why is that? Sociology has studied this and their are many theories that make a lot of sense. When you have a large group of people of low economic standards, like in large cities, you have a desparate group of people that want to control their enviorment. In an environment where "family" is not defined by the people in your house, but rather, the people in your group, or gang, territorialism becomes a fact of life. The whole culture of gangs is born out of a low education, low income potential, need state. Imagine being brought up as a small child that those types of philosophies and traditions are the norm. You would grow up believing, indoctrination, that this was the way life was. It's a vicious cycle that is near impossible to break. They are taught from a young age that you can work for someone outside the "family" for minimum wage and be oppressed or you can be part of the "family" and take what is yours. Most of us never grow up in this type of ideology or culture. But this accounts for the "why" there is such large numbers of gangs.

3.) Violence is going to be higher in higher population areas where disparity in wealth is evident. Their will be a higher rate of mental illness and a higher rate of desperation.

As I have stated, I am for gun rights. But you can't use the same litmus test for every part of the country. Where there is large scale violence, you have to be able to try to make an impact on it where you can. It's true that in places where the larger groups will get weapons, no matter what the law states, you wont be able to stop it. But if you keep weapons out of the hands of people that don't have those connections, you do keep the numbers down. The poverty sections of these large cities resembles more of a war zone mentality than most of America. Just some food for thought.

Texasroadqueen:

Yeah, Charles Shumer free on bail is more dangerous than 20 guns in a bar.

None of the 4 killers in Chicago who murdered that honor student had guns.

What now, outlaw wood?

It's a culture thing. Some people hold the lives of others to be worthless. Outlawing firearms without changing these attitudes will no absolutely nothing.

Neil,

That is part of my point. They used wood to kill him because they didn't have guns. If they had guns, they would have shot him and who else? Yes, the culture needs help changing, but, it's not that easy. It's harder to kill someone with wood. You never hear of drive by boardings.

I have been in the field hunting and on the range target shooting and traveled the streets in the south side of Chicago, I have no fear of legal gun owners. The sad truth is the government cannot control people. My second point would be the abysmal conditions in the lower income neighborhoods is a direct result of government sanctioned segregation. One might also note political opportunists have in the past and will in the future legitimize gangs for their purposes. The machine in Chicago, known to many as the outfit has some rather dubious associations and history that might be revealing if one was willing to look, these social engineers in government are not what they would have you believe and their followers are either naive or hypocrites.

An armed society is a polite society!!!

Guns+alcohol = bad idea!!!No patrons should be allowed to have guns. As far as owners and security I have no problem with that (of course that is with a no alcohol, no exceptions rule).

I don't know why people are getting worked up here. The media demonizes people who use firearms or are allowed to carry them. These people go through numerous safety classes and are not the wild west types.

Carlos is right here- Chicago and New York where an active ban on guns is in place has much more violence than all of Arizona- even in the bars where guns will be allowed. These gangbangers don't care about the gun ban law or any other law you can write.

More people die everyday from driving a car while not drunk than this whole handgun issue.

Lets just ban driving....

People who own guns drink at their own house every single day of the year. nothing comes of it.

the problem isn't alcohol and guns, it's idiots and guns.

a majority of gun owners are normal people, and a couple beers doesn't make them trigger happy. Allowing guns in bars will absolutely not change any statistics as far as people getting hurt by guns.

Remember Obama's union thugs wacking the old guy at the townhall meeting.

Remember all the guys outside the townhall meeting in Arizona legally carrying their guns.

You didn't see any union thugs trying to intimidate innocent people there, did you?

No Slacker - The Wild Wild West was my immediate impression.

I'll never forget stopping into a bar in Kingston AZ.

Suffice it to say that I will not be going to any bars in AZ now.

Scary.

Guns don't kill people, stupid people with guns kill people. How many stupid people do you all know?

And in regards to an above comment about having to go through safety courses to carry a hand gun. A lot of the class is on safety not the proper use of deadly force! I am ex-military and I know it is one thing to know gun safety and another thing to know when to properly use your weapon. I believe it is imperative to know not only the safety aspects of the gun, but to also know how to properly recognize and react to a situation if one was to ever arise. I also know the military doesn't mix alcohol and guns. It just never seems to end up with a positive outcome.

I am not saying that everyone who owns a gun is irresponsible, but there is always someone and when you throw alcohol into the mix our decisions become impaired. Why do you think that one of the slang terms for alcohol is "liquid courage". I have seen my share of bar fights while in the military and thank goodness nobody pulled out a gun. I am not stupid I know people carry guns into places where they aren't allowed. But does that make it right to just go ahead and legalize it since everyone is doing it anyways?

In the article it says people with "concealed weapons" (and I stress concealed) will not be allowed to drink. Now my question if the weapon is concealed how will they know not to serve them alcohol unless they are honest? Hmm...

Stupid people with guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people! I don't see any mention in the second amendment about the right to carry bullets.

If it's anything like Ohio, those little signs will be going up everywhere. They don't do any good, but at least people aren't afraid to work at the bar.

When you can carry a loaded gun around the President of the United States I see nothing wrong with carrying them around ordinary citizens and if some one should get killed accidentally or on purpose well thats tough titties as far as I am concerned.

I say every body in America should get strapped and I bet racism will disappear over night.

Can't you see some cowardly racist approaching a minority with a 9mm.

Cool. I'll stay out of Arizona. They can kill each other off, then we will have gun control.

I see it now....a busy bartender or waitress now asking someone after he orders a drink," do you have a concealed weapon on you, may I pat you down first?" This is hilarious it is so stupid. Worse than having DRIVE-THROUGH liquor stores in Texas.

I see it now....a busy bartender or waitress now asking someone after he orders a drink," do you have a concealed weapon on you, may I pat you down first?" This is hilarious it is so stupid. Worse than having DRIVE-THROUGH liquor stores in Texas.

Hey now! Let's not denigrate drive thru liquor stores. Sometimes I just don't have the time to get out of my car when I need some booze!

I always look forward to your posts Schwann. Gotta love it!

The sponsor of the bill is a Mormon, who presumably doesn't drink and doesn't go into bars.

This legislation passed before and was vetoed by a democratic governor. Now that we have a republican governor again, it went through without getting vetoed. We can't fund our schools or come up with a working budget, but by GOD we'll have guns in our bars!

Way to go AZ!

I own and believe in the right to have and carry firearms but for god sake who thought this was a good move?????? Sorry I am a member of the NRA and Guns and booze just don't mix. I have a concealed permit but in bars some one is nuts.

Once again BOOZE and Guns don't mix!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm just looking at this and now know that the NRA and gunlovers in this country a totally insane.

I suggest that ANYONE who does not think that this is the single most irresponsible piece of legislation to ever be passed just read the newspapers and city ordinances of Arizona from the 1860's thru the 1890's to see what those people thought of drunks with guns. What do you gun loving morons think the OK Coral shootout background was all about? Before the city ordinance was passed banning the carrying of firarms within the city limits of Tombstone, that town had a per capita death by gunshot rate higher than half of the cities east of the Mississippi combined. At least three or four people a DAY, in a town with a popultion of about 20,000 at the height of the silver boom where killed in gunfights, the bulk of which involved drinking.

This is just stupid, and shows that the NRA and gunlovers are completely out of their minds and are totally irresponsible, and after the inevitable drunken murders occur hopefully the courts will finely see that the extremeist positions of gunlovers is in fact detrimental to society as a whole and those irresponsible idiots will be put back on the leash that our ancesters of the 19th century put them on.

Karen, I assume you mean Kingman. I am from AZ and have been to Kingman; it's a BFE town and I'm not surprised it was scary. I'm also not surprised they would allow guns in AZ; concealed weapons have been legal for a long time. And it's true that laws only matter to law abiding people; thugs carry guns anyway with no fear of an armed population. They may get arrested for carrying a firearm but they'll get nothing for it and be back on the street so really the law has no teeth anyway. This law is a great idea; now they just have to stop prosecuting people for defending themselves. Be careful outside of the Phoenix metro area, once you leave it you are in the old west.

I see the anti-gun fools are at it again predicting all kinds of carnage. People have been carrying concealed weapons into bars all along without incident. Nothing will change.

What does Chicago, New York, Gang bangers, or culture have to do with this article? Nothing. Why not try and stay on topic instead of proving how stupid you really are.

Arizona passed this law, so deal with the people that passed it and stop trying to bring psuedo-politics/sociology into this.

You're a moron Joe. You didn't get what he was saying at all.

Ed,

You are spot-on. In addition to that comment, I will add that gun control is a fallacy that does nothing but increase crimes. Want proof? www.gunfacts.info for all you people that think getting rid of guns would make everyone suddenly happy and peaceful. Wake up.

OK Corral, Dodge City, don't you libs have anything new? Those lines have been repeated ever since 1987 when Florida passed the nation's first concealed carry law. Since then, 41 states have similar laws passed. No OK corral, no Dodge City, no shootouts on the highways. You guys have to come up with a new argument.

Once again, the mainstream news has is misleading the public. The Arizona law does not allow guns in bars. It allows those who have gone thrrought training to to carry a concealed weapon into a resturant which serves alcohol. Under the law, the ccw holder cannot drink. I

Once again, the mainstream news has is misleading the public. The Arizona law does not allow guns in bars. It allows those who have gone thrrought training to to carry a concealed weapon into a resturant which serves alcohol. Under the law, the ccw holder cannot drink.

Just be careful what you order at the bar.

"Colt 45 please"?

"Shooter"?

I don't see a problem unless you're "loaded".

People in TX are allowed to carry concealed weapons into bars and restaurants. I live in Austin and there are plenty of bars that allow it and plenty that don't, but either way, I haven't heard about many shootouts in one of the most liberal cities in the country.

Arizona will now be the first state to legalize murder and manslaughter. And those conservatives were worried about Obama's public health option. Geeeze.

Wow:

#1 did you read the part where it is illegal to drink while carrying a concealed gun? #2 Nut jobs can carry now, they don't need a license because they are criminals and don't care...the difference now is that instead of hiding under the tables (luby's Restaurant massacre) a law abiding citizen with a carry permit can shot back ...now that everyone else is cowering under the tables I will have clear shot. #3 In states that have banned handguns - crime is higher where it is not, in state and places that ban guns only the crooks and nuts have guns. #4 Most Americans are tired of being targets for gang bangers, whack jobs and crooks... The rest of you just keep hiding under the tables and take your shot in the back the head the cowards you are, while I fire back to the supprise of the nut job who thought he would just kill everyone.

Please note below this whack job did not have a license....

The Luby's massacre was a mass murder that took place on October 16, 1991 in Killeen, Texas, United States when George Jo Hennard drove his pickup truck into a Luby's Cafeteria and shot and killed 23 people, wounded another 20 and then committed suicide by shooting himself. It remained the deadliest shooting rampage in American history until the Virginia Tech Massacre.

Those carrying the weapons aren't allowed to drink alcohol.

If the guns are concealed how does the bartender know you have a gun and not to serve; or that if guns are banned from the establishment how do you know whether or not the gun is concealed and someone is carrying a gun? Can you drink alcohol prior to coming into the bar - not just while you are in the bar? I know that concealed gun toters are not all unbalanced people; but I also know that all it takes is one incident which is more likely to occur where alcohol is involved. I live in AZ. and I don't like the odds. I prefer not to have to worry about these things.

vmot, looks like you missed the fact that the law is only different for those that DON'T drink. If the person is drinking, then nothing has changed. Right now, how does a bartender know that a person is (or is not) illegally carrying a firearm?

@ RossJ:

I agree with most of your previous first post about the reasons why gang members conduct their own rash of armed violence and little to no respect for life, but the assessment about since they are poor, low education, lack of progress, etc is an excuse and not a reason. I have been poor, had low income status, etc. Instead of joining a worthless gang to feel that I am part of a "family" I stayed in school and made the right choices. So I have little to no compasion for a wanna be gang banger or gang member who shoots without thinking and would fire a weapon into the masses to kill one of their opposite numbers. I place gang members on the same level as I do an Al Qadia cell or terrorist organization. They don't adhere to society standards and fail to follow the law. So use the same standards.

Too many kids out there that would shoot you for the money in your wallet. It is sad and unfortunate but if someone threatens me and my life or my family, then I am going to defend myself. The problem is that the law is based more for the rights of the criminal then the victim. Why has there been such an increase of the number of gangs? Spread out all across the US as well as an increase of violence and armed aggression? Because their mom or dad didnt tell them they were good kids and they didnt get a hug doesnt give them the right to inflict suffering on law obeying citizens.

yeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaawwww!!!!! I'll be a fixin to head down arizona way pert near future, boy howdy! Guzzle up me some suds n see who's a quicker on the draw. Good tmes.

When Florida passed the first CCW Laws, the anti-self-defense nutjobs predicted that there would be blood in the streets and it would be just like the OK Corral. Unfortunately for them, it never materialized. The real OK Corrals are in L.A., Chicago and Washington D.C., places where guns are supposedly BANNED!

Even in the days of the Old West, when the town law took hold, guns and alcohol were found not to mix, the Aces and eights moments were not all that common and many saloons posted a sign that stated "NO Guns Allowed". Guns like tools were still needed on the frontier were law was weak.

There is a inordinate fear of legal gun carrying and permitting is the best control for keeping track of who has the right to carry. In many cases where crime is high a citizen should have the legal choice and those criminals using or found with guns in their possession should suffer harsh punishment by law. Owning a firearm legally and defending your family, home or property is prevention of crime, stopping a crime in progress should be legal if you are carrying a legal firearm. This is all about responsibility and the education needed to use and maintain a firearm, it is a legal right under our Constitution to own or have a legal firearm and to spread fear to make gun owners look irresponsible is nothing more than paranoia and a delusional want to make everyone think there is no crime. It is simple, if you personally are uncomfortable or irresponsible stay away from owning a gun.

So your more dead when shot to death and less dead when your stabbed to death beat to death with a pool stick or killed by drunk driver leaving one of these bars? Wow who would have thunk it.

I don't want guns in bars for one reason.

Many people in bars get drunk and lose their heads, especially men, and men have this ego thing with other men as to whose is bigger which they resolve with fights and if a gun is in the picture - POW.

I never thought I would have a reason for a gun. I have to agree that where I live in Arizona there’s little to no hope for protection by the police for anything. They tell you that outright. “Get a gun,” I was told that nineteen years ago after being chased through the National Park by a man with no pants on. I was in College and the police treated me like the pervert and not the victim. They laughed at me when I reported it and asked me to describe the man’s ‘privates.’

I took out a loan and the loan officer told us it would be three years before our rates went up and then they would sell the loan and it would just go up a little bit. Within months they sold the loan and the payments went from $350 to $1200/month. I contacted the police about the scam. They laughed and told me to bring a tape recorder and lawyer to the loan office next time. They wouldn't take a report.

A realtor had nearly 50 acres of land surveyed, marked and walked the property line with me. She said "never mind about all the names and parcel numbers.”That’s what I'm here for." I hired another realtor to watch the other realtor who was supposed to represent me too in the deal. Turns out she marked property that the seller didn't own and took six figures cash from me. The police in that county wouldn't take a report. The Attorney General (pictured on his website with the Sheriff of said County) referred me to the Board of Realtors who said they wouldn't take a complaint until I took the Realtor to Civil Court. So it seems that anyone can set up a sign in front of an empty house they don't own, sell it, take in six figure amounts and it’s not a crime! Land Swindles seem to have been decriminalized. Sell that Brooklyn Bridge to the nation!

I took a restraining order out on a violent stalker (also a realtor and loan officer with connections,) subsequently I called 911 on two occasions. Once when he tried to force his way into my house and another when he was driving by and stalking. He took me to court to ask that the restraining order be lifted and admitted to both violations of said order while on the stand. The Judge upheld the orders. The officers in the domestic violence division were absolute bullies who changed the phone number of one witness three times, belittled me, called me names and refused to follow-up on the stalker’s violations which by law require a mandatory arrest. I was too much trouble just like looking in the backyard for Jaycee Dugard was too much trouble.

Unfortunately I’ve learned from experience. I hope telling this awful true story explains a bit where all this gun talk is coming from. There is no one left who watches out for us and indeed those who swear to protect the citizens are beginning to look like the bad guys too. We’re losing hope.

They call people who flee harsh winters for the warmer climate of Arizona ‘Snowbirds.’ Indeed, protected with legislation and by friends are a multitude of desert predators lying in wait. How soon before the desert sands run red as another slaughter of Snowbirds takes down the financial fabric of our nation?

Is there a Sheriff who can save us from the bad guys? Am I gonna end up dead from posting this? hmmmm

And I thought Texas had already cornered the market on this kind of stupidity.

Just another reason to stay home Saturday Nights.

Crazy !!.. in Arizona, you're allowed to go into a bar with a gun, but NOT allowed to drink alcohol..OMG !!.. why go into a bar in the first place ?? that's a Place To Drink !!..

You can bring a gun into a bar in Arizona, but you better not bring in a cigarette!

... and yet they ban alcohol at all shooting ranges???

Comments anyone?

JanCanDo: Surely you can't be talking about Sherrif Joe in Maricopa County???

As for the land swindle... did you consider closing the deal with a title company of your choosing? It's usually a pretty safe bet to avoid land swindles by doing a title search and then paying for title insurance. Most people that avoid this mis-step usually do so because they want to "save" a few dollars by not doing a title search and/ or purchasing title insurance.

As for the loan you took out that went from $350/ month to $1,200/ month, did you not bother to read the lending disclosures?

I certainly don't want to come off as though I am reprimanding you, but you really do need to read the BIG PRINT ON THE FRONT. It's not fine print, it has to be on the FRONT of the disclosure.

I hope you don't feel the need to get a gun because your payments went up.

Guns and alcohal do not mix at any time. Speaking as a former bartender, I am totally opposed. I can't wait to move out of Arizona...it's just keeps getting dumber all the time.

Can each individual bar refuse to allow weapons on their premises?

LU

Didn't you read the article? Of course they can. And keeping firearms banned across the board does not prevent wac-jobs from comming in and firing away. The law also prohibits those with concealed carry from drinking. The bottom line is you have nothing to fear from law-abiding citizens, and the risk of being shot by some drunk A-hole hasn't gone up. Most fire-arm owners are very intelligent people. Most who are anti-gun tend to be fearful out of ignorance. It would help if they became more knowledgeable and maybe took a class or went to the shooting range.

My town in Ohio closes school for the first day of hunting season. My area is huge on deer hunting, they hunt until dark and many go to the vars afterwards to boast and tell stories. Their rifles lined up all along the walls. They get their fill and go home. There hasn't been a murder in my town for over 30 years.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

I live in a very rural area. I have 3 dogs to guard my property. My county sherriff is over an half hour drive from my house. If a robber somehow managed to get passed my dogs and break down my door, he's eating some lead for lunch, then I'll call the sherriff.

They don't wait until they get to the bar to start drinking. And if you state is anything like Kansas, you can expect a few "accidental" deaths during hunting season. Guns kill people. People drink.

Dear ProudLiberal-821457..... Please do stay in Europe where you can be protected by one of those fine military's they have. I think they use the "Drop the weapon and run like a sissy liberal" policy. Chicago and Washington DC have the most strict laws on guns and have the highest crime rates. All you stinking liberals read below and learn!

We can only hope that the NRA could run the Country. A gun in the hands of all law abiding citizens would be a great start!

Protect the 2nd..................Locked and Loaded!

A Little Gun History Lesson

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From
1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to
defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to
1917, 1.5 million Armenian's, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.

---------------------------

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to
1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were
unable to defend themselves were rounded up and
exterminated

------------------------------

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952,
20 million political dissidents, unable to defend
themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

----------------------------

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to
1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to
1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves,
were rounded up and exterminated.

------------------------------

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to
1977, one million 'educated' people, unable to defend
themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

-----------------------------

Defenceless people rounded up and exterminated in the
20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

------------------------------

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia
were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal
firearms to be destroyed by their own government, a
program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500
million dollars. The first year results are now in:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent

Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent

Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes,
44 percent)!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms
are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding
citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and
criminals still possess their guns!

It will never happen here? I bet the Aussies said that
too!

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady
decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed
drastically upward in the past 5 years, since criminals
now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and
assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a
loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after
such monumental effort and expense was expended in
successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The
Australian experience and the other historical facts
above prove it.

You won't see this data on the evening news, or hear
politicians disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and
property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only
the law-abiding citizens.

Take note, my fellow countrymen, before it's too late!

The next time someone talks in favour of gun control,
please remind him of this history lesson.

With Guns............We Are "Citizens".
Without Them........We Are "Subjects".

During W.W.II the Japanese decided not to invade America
because they knew most Americans were ARMED!

Note: Admiral Yamamoto, who crafted the attack on Pearl
Harbour had attended Harvard U 1919-1921 & was Naval
Attaché to the U. S. 1925-28. Most of the US Navy was
destroyed at Pearl Harbour & their Army had been deprived of
funding & was ill prepared to defend the country.

It was reported that when asked why Japan did not follow
up the Pearl Harbour attack with an invasion of the U. S.
Mainland, his reply was that he had lived in the U. S. &
knew that almost all households had guns.

?

No one is saying take guns away from people. They are just saying don't allow them in bars. Do you have to take it to an extreme?

I agree. Nothing to fear from the law abiding, gun carrier. A person taught how to handle a gun will never misuse or abuse the right to carry. I think gun handlig should be mandatory taught in schools.

Dork ing where did you go to school? Guns don't load and aim and pull their own triggers. someone has to do it for them. most deadly accidents are not firearm related during hunting seasons. most deaths during hunting seasons are from heart attacks NOT from gunshots. The nutjobs that shoot up schools and stores and Banks are already criminals and have prior convictions. The NRA is people like you and me, it is not a special interest group like PETA who would rather kill a puppy than see it get a good home.

Oh yeah, why didn't Japanese's invasion follow? Because we took control of the islands in the Pacific...How can Japan invade the US without those islands, East Asia? Correct me if I'm wrong. They can try sending people over, but I'm pretty sure we can sink their ships before they even reach halfway

Taught in schools??? Hey, I'm all for personal gun ownership. I'm a former US Army Ranger and I have no problem with responsible citizens owning and carrying concealed weapons, with the proper permits of course. But teaching students to fire weapons?? Ever heard of Columbine?

I'm a teacher now and the thought of firearms in the school terrorfies me, nevertheless teaching the kids how to fire them. This should be the choice of the parents of the students whether or not their children should be taught this lesson.

And you comment about people who've been taught to handle a gun will never misuse them, obviously you don't read the news of former policemen and servicemen who have. It's not the teaching of gun safety that is answer; it is the responsibility of the gun owner. Think about it.

Man, I'd settle for the schools just teaching what's in the Constitution.

It's not the teaching of gun safety that is answer; it is the responsibility of the gun owner. Think about it.

zapain. Most people don't think anymore. They post on emotion. Really good points that you made though. I work as a network engineer for a public school system. The thought of these kids carrying guns is terrifying. I hate to drive my car when the high schools let out at 3:00 until the students clear out. Their driving is scary enough for me. We don't need to arm them with fire arms too.

gill--that's why I park my car in the back of the school and wait until at least 3:30 to leave LOL.

I don't think a ranger would have your attitude.

A Marketer

Oh yeah, why didn't Japanese's invasion follow? Because we took control of the islands in the Pacific...How can Japan invade the US without those islands, East Asia? Correct me if I'm wrong. They can try sending people over, but I'm pretty sure we can sink their ships before they even reach halfway

Tell that to the Cubans and Hatians that are coming to America everyday, Illegally, They are on the rise as the most often arrested burglars in Florida.

I don't think a ranger would have your attitude.

And you would know that because? You are an attitude expert?

Right man: It's true that guns don't kill people; people with guns kill people.

I consider myself to be liberal on social issues and conservative on fiscal issues. That said I have no problem with responsible gun ownership. The laws we have on our books today only impact the responsible gun owners. In a Utopian society, there would be no reason for handguns and rifles would only be used for hunting. The problem is that we don't live in a Utopian society, quite far from it. We live in a society where our rights and civil liberties are constantly being usurped by our politicians. I think the 2nd ammendment has been completely misinterpreted by the NRA yet I still have no problem with responsible gun ownership.

You can make all the laws you want, but they will have absolutely zero affect on the irresponsible gun owner. The bad guys don't care about the law until they get before the judge. ...and I'm a liberal

Exactly what I was wondering. If they're not going to drink, what are they doing going into a bar?

I'll say again patrons of bars have absolutely no business carrying firearms. If the owner and security want to I see no problem with that as long as there is zero tolerance of alcohol consumption.

Proudliberal, yes you are most welcome to stay stay in Europe. We don't need you here!

As for the NRA having a 18th century mindset, please explain your reasoning on that, or have you just been listening to too much left wing liberal propaganda?

You say armed people do not belong in a civilized society. Then by your reasoning, the populace of a society should remain unarmed and cowed by gun toting criminal thugs. Yeah right!

As for enlisting in the military? Did 20 years already thank you! I don't love guns. They are only tools and the means to an end should they be needed.

As for living my life in fear? Not hardly. The only fearful thing is listening to mealy mouthed left wing liberals try to tell me what they think is right for me and what is best for me and mine. By the way, do you know anyone in the U.K.? Ask them if they feel much safer after their own government took their guns away? You could also ask them about the sharp increase in the violent crime rate as well.

sherri2012

Exactly what I was wondering. If they're not going to drink, what are they doing going into a bar?

Bars do serve food, and someone has to be a DD. I really doubt that it is going to be a bloodbath as some would have you believe. Yes guns and alcohol do not mix, but if you are responsible enough to have a concealed carry permit I'll bet you are responsible enough to follow the rules.

Rodney...

I belong to a great family of responsible family of gun owners. I have lived in areas where gunbelts were considered a normal part of many people's working attire.

However, I just don't see that any mixture of alcohol and bullets in any way at any time is a sensible idea. I think it is bad enough that we all know there are people leaving any establishment serving alcohol who are going to get behind the wheel of a car. Most people with common sense don't think that is a good idea.

I'm not sure why mixing alcohol and guns is in any way an improvement on that. I live in a state that allows concealed carry. I am sure there are people everywhere I go who have guns already. But it just seems that the rather ridiculous perceived threat that a lot of people have that somehow an entire Amendment of the Constitution is going to be overturned any day now (they are obviously unaware of both the effort and time involved in modifying the Constitution) is causing way too much diversion from the "common sense" we used to have when people who owned guns could be depended on to also be "responsible".

I certainly do not have any preconceptions that generally people go into a bar NOT to drink. I also have been in enough bars myself to know that arguments and all sorts of disagreements break out, more or less frequently, depending on the establishment. "Take it outside" is a little late if someone is already dead, rather than just belted with a pool cue or fist.

I don't think I would be interested in upping the thrill of my evening by going to a bar or restaurant where there was not a "No Guns Allowed" sign posted. I checked around with a number of my "responsible" gun owner friends and family, and they didn't think they would be taking their spouses or meeting their friends there either.

That just seems like asking for trouble. In our present circumstances, everyone is under a lot of stress, frustration and even anger already. Civility seems to be going the way of the Model T. People are losing the ability to disagree without being disagreeable.

And guns and alcohol are very disagreeable.

@rightman1

What does a loosely relevant WW2 conversation concerning guns has to do with illegal immigrants?

If you think Japanese didn't invade the US because people own guns then you're mentally challenge to see the obvious...How can Japan ship their soldiers across the Pacific when US has control of the Pacific islands? Our military base on those islands won't be able to detect their ships? or airplanes? How are they going to send soldiers over to our West coast without us aiming at their transportation method?

Gun rights was for purpose of a militia, read the 2nd amendment again..there's a comma not a period after the first half of the amendment.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

See the comma? and a Militia is "A military force that is not part of a regular army and is subject to call for service in an emergency." from Answers.com. Nowadays we have a draft if our country need our service, and they provide weapons and armors...so why do we need to own such things?

Get with the time people.

Proud liberal, you can stay in Europe and the next time your continent needs saving from a tyrant, you can count on all of us 18th century Americans to come save you...again.

We're not worried about an invasion here, because approximately 30 million Americans have guns. That constitutes the largest, albeit untrained, standing army in the world. Not so with you un-armed Europeans. Oh yes, and sorry about not putting in the missile defense shield to deter your future enemies.

A marketer, Reread your history (and not the revisionist BS being taught). The Japanese ran wild for the first 6 months of the war and the true balance of power didn't shift till even later. The only islands in their way during that time were the Hawaiians, Midway and Johnson. Not exactly an impenetrable line. And if not for a very lucky break in intelligence, Midway probably would have been toast in June,1942. Admiral Yamamoto's quote was to a newsman acquaintance, not to the government. But it is a good insight into his thinking (and planning).

Japs run wild for 6months? When? Before they attacked Pearl Harbor? We didn't care about the war before Pearl Harbor...we joined the Allies and took back control of the Pacific islands after the attack.

I still don't get it...we have bombs now...how can guns protect us from bombs? Not to mention tanks and artillery.

Maybe every American should arm themself with a nuke!

JaniAnnD

Guns and alcohal do not mix at any time. Speaking as a former bartender, I am totally opposed. I can't wait to move out of Arizona...it's just keeps getting dumber all the time.

Come on up. We have room up here in Canada.

A Marketer, Your lack of knowledge of American history is almost mind blowing. You obviously passed through one of those re-education camps passing for schools teaching revisionist history. Unfortunately, it's a burden you'll have to bear for the rest of your life. Just think, when an acquaintance sees you coming, he'll say to his buddies, "watch out, here comes ol' dumb-ass". There's an old saying that if you learn something the right way, you'll do it the right way for the rest of your life. If you learn it the wrong way, you'll spend the rest of your life trying to undo it. You need to go back to your school and b*tchslap your commissars for wasting your time and your parents' money.

canemah, you are a moron. By 1942, the Japanese were already militarily stretched to the breaking point in the areas of shipping and resources. The Imperial Fleet actually had plans for invading Sri Lanka and shelved them because it didn't have the shipping or the fleet elements necessary to carry out such an invasion along with the New Guinea/ Soloman Islands invasion planned at that time. And, a two carrier task force of the Lexington and Yorktown was able to stop the planned invasion of the Australian controlled part of New Guinea. The Japanese merchant fleet was already under pressure from US subs, even thought they were still using defective torpedos. And, whether anybody had guns was beside the point. In fact, in most of the campaigns outside of China, the Allies constistantly OUTNUMBERED the Japanese forces facing them in 1942, often by a factor of two to one. And, any credible military historian will tell you that as far as small arms goes, the Allies consistently had better small arms than than the Japanese, from the very beginning. And, our intelligence wasn't 'lucky', it was the result of YEARS of successful code breaking going back to the 1920's. Pearl Harbor happened not as a result of lack of intelligence, but the inability to properly analyse that intelligence.

canemah, I suggest YOU read a liitle history, and not the rightwing fanatsies you must imbibe.

Rodney...many thanks for the lengthy info regarding all of the countries who have enacted gun control only to find themselves in harms way when they tried to defy their government. Unfortunately, it's a baseless argument.

I would venture to say that gun control or not... if you try to defy or overthrow your government you will be "rounded up" and depending on where you live, either executed or thrown in prison, and that extends to the gool ole USA! In the USA you will ultimately be imprisoned or killed by the military defending your "right" and will get a lot of innocent law abiding people killed as well. I believe we have at least one real life example of that already happening in our country....remember WACO?

There isn't enough firepower anywhere in the world that the average citizen can posses that will protect you from a military power whose intent is to exert control, so stop using that as an excuse to prevent sensible gun legislation. That is nothing but NRA hype!

I think most of the people on here, have to read between the lines on this subject, the legislators in the state of Arizona, are trying to let the citizens, show they have some intelligence, and common sense, this law wasn't passed for the idiots, or criminals, but for the law abiding citizens. give it time you will see common sense will overcome ignorance in most cases.

Let me say this again. This law is not for bars. It is for resturants which serves alcohol. CCW holders collectively take their responsibilites seriously and would not drink. This law is in effect in several states, with the ccw holder able to drink. Shockingly enought, there is no carnage.

In response to Rodney L.. In America in 2015, everyone owned a gun and killed each other.

Tom, very well put. We also should not forget one of Admiral Isoroku Yammamoto's most famous quotes after Pearl Harbor. "I fear we have awakened the sleeping giant." More truer and prophetic words have never been spoken!

kaara, I haven't read all commments and maybe armed citizens cannot over throw our government but it helps outsiders from feeling America is a pushover. I live in New Mexico, I have a concealed carry permit. As a lawbiding citizen I do not carry into any establishment that bans concealed firearms. WACO, you mean Clinton's killing of citizens, women and children after the government agents fired first with no valid reason. Of course the media played the Clintonian version. Check, see if there was any illegal firearms found, any explosives? Strangely everything taken was never made available, at the time, for the citizens to see. All we got was the white washed account. Ruby Ridge. government used entrapment to get this all started. The gunfire was started by the government personnel killing Randy Weavers dog on Weaver's land. Then they murdered his son and wife. Randy Weaver and family moved to get free, the government could not allow that. By the way how much did he government pay him for their wrong doing, a couple million. How does that compensate for a murdered wife and son? How many FBI killers were punished, 0,zip, zero, nada.

I'm not sure but I do believe the government plowed everything over at Ruby Ridge.

If a robber somehow managed to get passed my dogs and break down my door, he's eating some lead for lunch, then I'll call the sherriff.

You'd kill someone for robbing you?

Most fire-arm owners are very intelligent people.

Ok they are intelligent - but are they skilled enough not to shoot the wrong person? Maybe they should pass some kind of skill level before getting a permit to carry a concealed weapon into a bar.

People go into bars and don't smoke....you know how dangerous that second hand smoke can be don't ya stranger?

Vmot- If you don't kill their lazy $sses when they break in- you get sued if you disable them for life.

Sorry for them but don't break in. You are not collecting for the red cross at 2AM.

People should be held accountable for their actions. You break in and get hurt or killed- your fault and your fault alone.

Too many lawyers in America. Why should I have to pay if you were coming in to rape, kill, or steal from me?

"CCW holders collectively take their responsibilites seriously and would not drink".

Your right...They're completely super-human when it comes to common sense. Above the trevails and worries of unemployment, cheating spouses/significant others, loved ones dying, the world full of a**holes, healthcare and the economy going to hell in a hand basket... You know, the thoughts that plague the minds of all the other sub-human beings out there...Those very same sub-human beings, who's emotional judgment is impaired by the horrifying reality of day to day existence...who in turn might feel the need to guzzle down some good ole' Jack Daniels to forget. Never would it enter into the minds of these law-abiding CCW holders to seek comfort in alcohol or imbibe in a bar or restaurant, while their gun is snuggled warmly in it's holster.

agm65:

Bars do serve food, and someone has to be a DD.

Good point. I guess you can tell bar-hopping isn't exactly high on my list of entertainment priorities...I've never yet had to think about lining up a DD.

Yes guns and alcohol do not mix, but if you are responsible enough to have a concealed carry permit I'll bet you are responsible enough to follow the rules.

Another good point, and I wouldn't be much worried about anyone in a bar with a CC permit. It's anyone without one, who is drinking, that would concern me. (Not that anyone else would even know such a person was in the bar, of course, unless and until something bad happened.)

I wish!!

The NRA does not run the country, the free people do. The NRA just trys to help protect our rights under the Constitutionand the Bill fo Rights. Mel, some of the righs protected whether you believe it or not are yours.

ftk1945....you've got to be kidding "the NRA just trys to help protect our rights"...perhaps initially, but in my opinion the NRA and their supporters have become a bunch of egotists who are ultimately going to cause the downfall of this country. They need to start lobbying to pass some sensible gun legislation which would certainly not include a citizen being able to carry a gun into a restaurant or bar.

As for your earlier post to me regarding the government's involvement in Waco and Ruby Ridge, you just validated my point....no amount of firepower is going to protect a citizen from defending his rights if the government thinks that he is in violation. Whether the government was right or wrong in their actions is a subject for another discussion.

only for states that have to many low IQ people..... what a total joke this is......

Thats why all the cities with high gun restrictions have high crimes eh?? Its a proven fact that criminals will be less likely too commit a crime if they suspect their victim is stronger than he or she appears its a proven law of nature.

Ask Washington D.C. and Britain what happens when guns are banned OR restricted. If you have any I.Q. ...... I think you know the answer already!

What really happens is that in a homogeneous society, violence and crime is so low that weapons' availability or absence is immaterial. In a heterogeneous society, social friction, crime and violence is endemic and weapons to protect oneself become necessary. That's why some have said the the type of gun laws that are successful in Laramie don't work in New York City.

Of course this is before SCOTUS clarified all attempts at denying people firearms.

Gun laws work, if they are written correctly.

see YAHOO - Gun Town USA

Now tell me which town you would want to live with your family.

Washington DC - the strictest gun laws in the USA, three times the average number of POLICE officers = the highest homicide rate and the highest violent crime rate.

Well...DUH...the criminals only have to go to Virginia...one state over...to obtain their weapons.

kaara -- NOT LEGALLY!!!!

Nimrod! And illegally, they can get them in every street corner where some bum pushes drugs, too!

Government and schools don't go together.....government and healthcare don't go together.....and on, and on!

anne; I agree.

Why are off-duty police frequently found drinking in bars in jurisdictions that require them to carry their sidearm with them at all times??

I'm amazed at the number of armed drunken off-duty cops we have in many of our largest cities.

If you're going to drink...leave the firearm at home. Drinking clouds your judgement...and that's the LAST thing that you need when you're armed.

GaryL I guess the military shouldn't be run by the government either, huh? Best run units in the world, and of course the post office would be so much better run by a private firm who could sub out the work to the LOWEST bidder, you know to illiterates such as yourself that can't read addresses.

And then, obviously there's Medicare that's doing such an abysmal job on the health care for the elderly, which btw, insurance companies would drop, you know, like you're being dropped on your head.

Then there's the National Parks System, you know, like the special Ken Burns is doing on PBS, but you don't watch educational programs they're too, well you know, eductional for you. Sorry.

Alot of these folks on here, have a skewed take on drinking, and, gun ownership, when you go to a bar do you have to become an uncontrolable raving drunk? No, most can drink socially without any trouble. When you carry a firearm do you suddenly become a gun toting criminal ready to hold someone up, or murder someone? No, most people can carry a firearm safely and responsibly.

Tn has had the law for 2 years, nobody killed yet

Nope. I live in TN and the law just went into effect in July followed by guns in state parks. Nice, huh?

Jerry.............remember, FACTS confuse liberals, and anti-gun folks. Save your breath!

William J. Brock...nice sense of reasoning except that the cop who pulls you over will be an NRA member too. if you want to be around a bunch of unarmed potential victims just get on a plane. Oh, there is one Air Marshall there too who is also an NRA member. Where can you go where there are NO guns allowed? let me think....China ?...Russia ? There must be a socialist country somewhere that would take you and people like you.

Perhaps I may have missed it in the article, but is there some type of crime wave that is rampant in bars in AZ where they feel it is necessary to allow armed civilians to protect themselves? I've been in numerous bars in many different states and have NEVER seen a confrontation with a weapon of any sort. I feel fairly confident that the rest of America is representative of this also. I have frequented both upscale bars and dive bars alike. If I don't feel safe, I leave. In all my years, I think I have only seen 2 fist fights from unruly patrons.

I guess the moral to this point is if you feel the need to carry a gun into a bar to protect yourself - find a different bar.

Recently, in a respectable area close to where I live, the owner of a bar was was trying to close up one evening and was beaten senseless by a patron who wanted another drink. He was sent to the hospital and expected to be there for several weeks because his injuries were so severe. This was a nice bar, not a dive.

I guess the moral is that alcohol sometimes = violence, and bars can be dangerous places, with or without guns.

It's OK William, so your wife ran off with an NRA member and you are reaching out. It is good to vent!

You don't believe in designated drivers, I guess. A drunk driver is way more dangerous than someone sober who's packing.

John367015 They mix well,But it dosen't taste good.

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWN!

Are you kidding? Some yutz in Dodge City owning a gun is why al Qaeda hasn't taken over? Or should we gird ourselves for Canada's Blitz? Yeah, that must be it! Hey Canada, I have a .22 and a shotgun, so don't bother, you'll just die at the border! They're quakin' in their boots now!

Actually, Canada won't invade because they aren't sure we've been to the MD lately. Why? Because some stupid f__k thinks it's more important to own a damn gun than have health care! Okay, right then. Guns do keep Canada from invading!

And none of my tax returns have any questions about guns you paranoid twit! Oh yeah, that's right, mind altering drugs are at work here too!

Uh, Brock, which World of Make Believe do You Live In? Are you so Sure that the good ol' U.S.of A. can't be Invaded? Or, that it can't be taken in a Coup? Do you remember a little thing called The War of 1812? Weren't We Invaded? Didn't the British Burn Down the White House? And all we had back then is Muskets. These are Modern Times. Do We Ourselves not Fight in Iraq and Afghanastan? Do We Share A Border WithTHEM? This is another fine example of The Freedom of Speech being Freely Exercised Without Benefit of Critical Thinking.

Hey Brock, we have been invaded. Not by Canada, but by Mexico. I live in southern Arizona (I know I'm an inbred moron simply because I live somewhere you don't). Home invasions, kidnappings, massive drug busts, drop houses, and even open gun battles happen almost daily here. All are directly tied to illegal drug trafficking from Mexico.

For this reason, I am grateful that a group of, using your words, "stupid f__ck(s) thought it was more important to own a damn gun than have health care!" Perhaps if the framers of the Constitution were enlightened as you, we would be free of guns and have free health care for all.

Go ahead, marginalize what I said. It's much easier to call me names, or just wish me to die in a shooting accident, than to actually have a big boy conversation.

How Long this Country Would Remain Free if it weren't for the Fact that We as a Nation, in time of National Emergency, have more than Just a Standing Army to Protect Us, Especially when most of Our Military is Comitted Elswhere?

Sure Pejuta, all those guns you guys love so much sure saved our bacon on 9/11, idiot.

Not true. There is no provision to name your firearms and pay a $50. tax. Just more fear-mongering and baiting by the Right. Congratulations. You've just been duped again into an irrational fear. Do you believe everything you read in an email. Because if you do, there is a Nigerian prince that needs your help...

Pejuta - there have been no anti-gun laws passed by the Obama admin. And the one you reference doesn't exist. It has been debunked repeatedly, but a certain type of person who can't be bothered to verify the facts still believes it.

If you have any interest in the facts, go to swopes.com, then go to politics as a topic, then guns as a subtopic and read the discussion about this supposed law.

Pejuta: So the last time we were invaded was almost 200 years ago. I know, Mowdecker, you think that the drug lords in Mexico ARE Mexico, but you're just wrong.

And (back to Pejuta) who invaded us in 1812? IIRC, it was the Brits, right? Does it seem like they are preparing for it again? I don't think so!

And all THEY had was muskets as well! Holy crap! You have a particular ability for ignoring the facts that don't fit in with your twisted view of reality! "If it don't fit my agenda, it ain't a fact." Sorry, but reality is a little more complex than your simple, twisted, paranoid mind can handle.

Mowdecker: Being drunk in a bar with a gun is not going to prevent your home invasions. In fact, owning guns in your home might just attract more invasions. What d you think they are after, your alarm clock? They are looking for money, and other items to further their goals. That would include guns, free guns that others have laying around. If you want to stop the invasions, stop the reasons for them. Stop the use of drugs, and the massive market for them here. Yes, better border patrols, etc. would assist, etc., but every time I turn around the same guys who don't like organized militia (the Border Patrol IS an organized militia) and don't want to pay the necessary taxes to foot the costs of the Governement's law enforcement efforts, are whining about their own guns being taken away! It just proves that you can't justify your stance, because your only goal is that YOU have guns, not that YOU are properly protected, or that your country is properly protected.

You guys aren't patriots, you're frightened little paranoids who can only feel like you have control when you hold a gun, and the others don't. Sorry, but you will notice the bar owners aren't going to allow guns into bars regardless of the new law, as they know better. Or should the bouncers be allowed to carry AK's if you can have a .45? Will you be upset if they can "outgun" you?

What's next? SAM's in movie theaters? It's time to grow up.

proudliberal-821457

if it weren't for the NRA, That might be All You Have to Maintain your Freedom of Speech and Expression, which you so often use without the Benefit of Critical Thinking.

Hah ah ah haha... can you say, Paranoid ??

If you think guns have to do with freedoms, you are a true idiot ! I know a lots of countries who do not allow their citizens to have guns and they have way more freedoms than you have !! Stop equaling guns with freedom, it is so stupid ! A gun is just a thing used to kill, it is just like me saying if I am not allowed to drive without a seatbelt, well then you are taking my freedoms away !! You, americans, are truely mentally and intellectually, challenged !

It is obvious that this fool (proudliberal) has been brainwashed.and is not an american so he don't know what real freedom is. as for William J. Brock the mexicans are here now and if you are an american they will spend your social security before you are retired. and when some mexican breaks into you house to get your TV reach for the phone. BTW, The last time this country was invaded it was with airplanes from Japan, and now it is mexicans with drugs and guns. The police will tell you this , " The police can't be everywhere "! And it was Joe Biden and Diane Feinstine who had the last gun ban passed by Bill Clinton. The gun ban expired because it was useless against crime and the crime rates increased because more people were defensless in their homes. The D.C. gun ban was decided to be unconstitutional by the US Supreme Court. So the murder capitol will be changing from D.C. to London or paris again.

"If you think guns have to do with freedoms, you are a true idiot ! I know a lots of countries who do not allow their citizens to have guns and they have way more freedoms than you have !! Stop equaling guns with freedom, it is so stupid ! A gun is just a thing used to kill, it is just like me saying if I am not allowed to drive without a seatbelt, well then you are taking my freedoms away !! You, americans, are truely mentally and intellectually, challenged !"

Wait, proudliberal, you don't think that the right to defend yourself has anything to do with freedom??? Maybe if you pulled your head out of there and stopped making jealous comments about the mental capacities of those more capable than yourself, then you wouldn't be such a laughingstock.

Pejuta and M johnson,There actually was a bill introduced a few years ago that some think of as law concerning registration of firearms through the IRS. It died in committee and no one has been so stupid as to resurrect it since.

Hi Pejuta.

What anti-gun laws has Obama passed? When did you last pay a tax of 50 dollars on each weapon you have? Where do you folks get this crap?

As far as protection from extermination - who are you thinking is out to exteminate you? Frankly, gunners and gunner attitudes are the biggest risk to our national security. The NRA as a saviour of our country - HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH. It's an organization that caters to the big gun companies and you folks swllow it hook line and sinker. They are fright mongers there to encourage you to buy more guns.

Bottom line - no one is taking your guns away. But no one is out to exterminate you either. And no one is invading the US except stupid people. An example being those that pass laws allowing loaded weapons in bars (oh, as long as they don't drink). So put your energy into responsible gun ownership, and not guns over everything else that makes a country strong.

Mr. Brock

Disagreeing with you is really telling. As most people are painfully aware, the last time America was invaded was 2001. 2726 non combatants were killed in the 911 attacks. To you, these were suicide attacks that could not have been averted by an armed populace. I contend that it could have been much worse had we not had that strategic issue for the terrorists to deal with. If carrying guns on those planes had been legal and someone on those planes had been armed can you not conceive it possible the attacks could have been prevented? They wouldn't have even taken place if the terrorists knew that someone was likely to be armed.

The War of 1812 had 2260 deaths, mostly by hit and run Naval attacks, because the British knew, from their experience of the American Revolution, that they would be outnumbered and outgunned on land. This was mainly a naval war. The few times the British landed troops on our shores they were eventually inflicted with many casualties.

From my experience, most foreigners are terrified by the "lawlessness" of America. I, for one, would like for the rest of the world to keep that in mind.

People, like you, who only think they know something, are truly targets.

Toledo Ohio: Shootout in a bar! Funny thing is that the only thing they didn't hit was what they were shooting at! Hah! Luckily, they were all aiming at each other.

Drunks and guns, hmmmm..... Stupid x2!

Jeeze, Brock, when did they move Toledo Ohio to Arizona? Apples and Oranges, Pal. If there's gonna be a shoot out in a bar, do you Really think those individuals involved are going to Care about whether there is a Concealed Carry Law, or for that matter, any other law? Again, return to Planet Earth, Brock.

I dunno, do you believe everything the Administration tells You?

No I don't, but that doesn't change the fact that no such law has been passed or is even currently under consideration.

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h45/actions_votes

Now check this out and say that the Bill is Dead, as Snopes claims, redphish. You can choose to believe Snopes, or you can choose to believe this.

Bills like this have been drafted in the past and never have made it out of committee, I highly doubt this one will either. In any case, there is nothing in this bill that relates to imposing a tax on firearms.

The first sign that Somebody is losing the Argument is the use of Ad Hominum attacks. It makes My Position That Much Stronger, LOL!

Try to Focus, Brock, you make it Too Easy....

Perhaps, redphish, and Perhaps Not. But to rely on a single Snopes publication of the "Facts" isn't exactly as Factual as Site I gave, which says, In Fact, that HR 45 is NOT Dead, now is it?

I never said it was, I was simply disputing your contention that a law had been passed that imposed a tax on firearms that required the owner to file with their federal income tax return. The Snopes article has nothing to do with HR 45 because it's existence is not a hoax.

Yes, I see what you mean, I didn't word it very well, Did I? I did not mean to Imply that it HAD been passed Yet. That Not Withstanding, The Law IS Still in Congress, waiting for a time when Everybody isn't paying attention, as oft is the case. Also, the Concealed Carry Law Quite Obviously isn't Anything New, after all, 41 out of 50 States Now Have it On the Books. Now I Wonder, which phish is Swimming Upstream?

I have a carry permit and would like to see the national carry bill passed, however, I don't think that has any more of a chance for coming to a vote than the licence bill. So, I guess I'd have to say that I'm swimming upstream on the carry bill and downstream on the licence bill. And trust me, my NRA dues pretty much guarantee that there will never be a time that no one is looking.

Pejuta, Brock's post was obnoxious and un-called-for, but it doesn't prove your point.

The claim about a bill that requires firearms to be listed on your tax return is a mixture of mis-information about provisions from a bill introduced back in 2000 (and not passed) and other provisions from a currently-proposed bill at the website your referenced. There is no current effort to make people list their precious guns on their tax returns. In addition, any per-gun fee will be levied on the gun-maker, not the gun owner.

Furthermore, the Obama administration itself has not supported highly-restrictive gun control laws. But the Obama administration is not the Congress. Yet, gun people continue to use gun control as still another litmus test to bash Obama.

PS to Perjuta - I have flagged Brock's post as inflammatory and irrelevant ( or whatever the flag is that means pointless, useless, unhelpful)

Oh, my feelings are hurt!

Anyone can buy a hunting license to hunt in Canada. But you have to pay an extra fee to take your gun with you to Canada. So I won't be going to Canada to hunt or fish and their tourism can suffer from their laws. there is a little peaceful revolution for you Canada. BTW, there are way too many Canadians comming to america for our health care services that are not available in Canada.

HR45 and SB2099 concerning registration and the IRS are unfounded rumor. There is nothing of the sort in either the 108 or 109 congress. In checking it out, I did notice HB47 of the 109th congress. Affirming the right of self protection with stats and examples of errant prosecution. Pro and anti gun people should read it. Very interesting.

There is no law that states that we must pay income taxes. Further, the Supreme Court has held that the 16th amendment gave the government no new authority to tax the people.

We're all the suckers and have been held captive by a tyranny since 1913. Do your research and wake up, folks.

Steve, you are Absolutely Right. The Current Administration needs to be focused on the Commission of Crimes while using Firearms, and should NOT be Focused on the Dismantling of the Second Amendment. If we are going to control all things that people can be killed with, then wouldn't Knives, Baseball Bats and Cars Rank in there Somewhere? Fight the Criminals with the Law, not the Law Abiding Citizens who own FIrearms, or for that matter, Knives, Baseball Bats and Cars.

But is it really necessary to carry a gun into a bar?

Can't you just leave it in your truck?

Steve-715631,

I'm doubtful that you could fight a modern well-equipped government, using handguns and rifles. Look at what has happened in recent history with attempts by the militia movements to fight the government. Or look at Iraq -- the people who are fighting us there are mostly using bombs, not guns and the use of these bombs is strategic, ie designed to inflict major psychological damage, not tactical to win a particular battle.

What if the Tiananmen Square students had been carrying guns? Would the CHinese tanks have been stopped in their tracks? I doubt it. Or, if that would have been an issue, then the government would have called in more tanks, air strikes, who knows what.

So, if the defense-against-tyranny argument is invalid, then what is all the hysteria concerning the right to bear arms really about? And why does so much of it come out during liberal administrations? And why is there so much lying and posturing about Obama's role in "disarming" the country, when in truth he has done nothing of thekind.

If you're really concenred about tyranny, I'd start worrying about the concentration of media power in fewer and fewer hands. About the fact that on every TV network except PBS, daily news programs are 10 minutes news and 20 minutes advertising. About the war hysteria that gripped the country in 2001 and led to 2 wars that have accomplished nothing, have cost a trillion dollars and thousands of American and middle eastern lives. About the fact that American school kids can't read, write, or do math. ABout the fact that the rich are getting richer and the middle class is getting poorer while voting for politicians and laws that make it possible.

It seems to me that the above are real issues leading to tyranny and that guns won't fix it.

"Can't you just leave it in your truck?"

By that logic, there's no reason to wear a seatbelt....after all, couldn't you just wait to put it on until just before the crash?

Good Point, Ringo.

I think that they've always been able to carry guns into bars in Arizona.

This law is for concealed weapons.

Isn't that correct?

If you say gun, you will have about one half of the country go off the deep end, no matter the context.

Maybe a better question would be, if you normally carry a weapon, why wouldn't you take it to a bar?

As many previous posts here have stated and I reiterate, do you seriously think people are going to go to a bar and not drink??? Are these the same people that to the racetrack and not gamble??? Go to the beach and not swim??? Grow up please if you want to have a rational discussion about this topic.

"I think that they've always been able to carry guns into bars in Arizona.

This law is for concealed weapons.

Isn't that correct?"

No Lu, not correct. Prior to the passage of this law, the rules were very clearly spelled out: No firearms (concealed or otherwise) were allowed to be carried into any establishment that serves liquor by the drink. The exception was if you went into a bar for assistance (ask directions, etc.), and you must not drink and must leave after receiving your assistance.

I'm an AZ resident, non-drinker, NRA member, and CCW permit holder, and I'm against this new policy for several reasons. First: who's supposed to enforce this law? How is a bartender to know whether a customer is armed, since the weapon is concealed? Second: If I'm in a bar drinking ginger ale, how long before some drunk spots my gun and starts: "Ooh, you've got a gun. You must be a badass. Let's see how bad you really are."

To me, the only benefit is that now, when I take my wife out to dinner at a place with a liquor license, I won't have to lock my gun in the car. That was never a big problem anyway. As others have posted, alcohol and guns don't mix any more than alcohol and driving.

"As many previous posts here have stated and I reiterate, do you seriously think people are going to go to a bar and not drink??? Are these the same people that to the racetrack and not gamble??? Go to the beach and not swim??? Grow up please if you want to have a rational discussion about this topic."

Richard, your post makes no sense whatsoever. Why would you reiterate something so pointless? The ONLY thing that changed is that people that are NOT drinking can carry in places that approve. If you are drinking, NOTHING has changed.

And for the record, there are lots of people in bars that aren't drinking. There are designated drivers. There are people out with friends that aren't drinking. Maybe you're an alcoholic, but I'm not. For that matter, many people at the racetrack are watching the race and not gambling. Many of the people at the beach are taking a walk, getting a tan, playing volleyball. If you had ever actually been to a beach, then you would know that MOST people aren't swimming.

So, when you are ready to have a rational discussion, maybe you could stop the childish remarks about growing up and try being honest.

Member of NRA?.......your kidding.......Advocate of the 2nd Ammendment?.......which side?

Rodney,

Do you think gays don't own guns? You obviously have this idea that all gays are limp wristed and love Barbara Streisand. Grow up.

So because John speaks out on a policy that he doesn't agree with, he's a liberal pussy and a homo? Guess that makes me one too.

Freedom doesn't mean unrestricted license.

Rodney/Casey: Because I advocate not mixing liquor with firearms "I'm on the wrong side of the NRA?" "I'm gay?" May I ask if the two of you are in 9th or 10th grade? I've worked with police and sheriff departments for over 30 years. As their medical officer I've seen, first hand, the results of guns in bars. How about I buy both of you a T-shirt that says "Instant A-hole, just add Liquor." Except it's obvious alchohol is really needed.

John I accidentally laughed out loud here at work after reading your t-shirt comment. Damn that's so funny. Thank you.

I just questioned the validity of your organizational associations NOT your sexsual orientation.........Now that you lost control, which is unbecoming of a law officer, I must question your "police" association.

That aside, you are entitled to "advocate" all you want, just note that assumed titles have little value in this "faceless" & "pseudonym" filled forum.

Casey: I'm a psychiatric RN, which most likely adds to Rodney's assertion that I must be gay. My wife (a female) got a good laugh from that. I've been the medical director for various Sheriff's departments in California and Idaho. I've been teased and criticized for being "too restrained", so thank you for taking an opposing view. May I ask? You stated "which side?" So you feel it's OK to walk into an establishment dispensing a disinhibiting drug carrying a gun? I don't believe I'm at odds with the NRA or the Second Ammendment by advocating not mixing booze with firearms. To me, it falls under the title "common sense." I've been pheasant hunting in Idaho many times and have been shot at by hunters that had a few beers. This is as dumb as texting or talking on a cell phone while driving.

OK John, now that we are at "parade rest", I like to say that I agree with your statement "...it falls unter the title common sence.". My position is to leave the issue to "common sence" and not legislature.

By on "which side"? I meant those that limit arms to militias only and those that believe in individuals right to be armed for whatever purpose.

I hear fishing is also good in Idaho.

Casey: The small streams are generally pretty good all the time for Natives and Cutthroats. Lake fishing is a crap shoot. I thought we might be on the same wave length after your second comment. I'm scared of Diane Feinstein, Barbara Boxer, John Kerry, and Sarah Brady. This law helps them and their lobby more than it helps we gun owners.

Well, I'm glad you care John.....I'm too old and too set in my ways.....Stopped going to the Senior Center 'couse all they talk about is medication and what the government will GIVE them for FREE!......Never did like hunting (no reason), liked fishing but was not good at it.....I have great respect for "common sence" people and a dislike for the "not in my back yard" crowd. Care less about what is on "national" news but volunteer in my town.

But there are people out there, like you named, who crave to "lordover" others. So far we have the power of the vote and our pea shooters to keep them at bay, at least here in Texas........Have a good life and Happy Trails to you...,

Yugoslavia?....Sorry, she is no more......Pick another country.

Suggest that you lead the way. Come back when you realize how ignorant you are about concealed carry laws and how they prevent more crimes than the police do. Start at gunfacts.info for the beginning of your education.

I take it you don't like guns, booze and fools........what else?

You don't like guns also. Is that your point?

Depends. But since you already made up your mind, there is no point arguing.

"But now to suit their agenda you can bring your gun to a bar where obviously whether you are supposed to or not you will drink."

Nope, not at all. You obviously missed the fact that nothing has changed in the law about someone with a firearm going into a bar and drinking. Still illegal.

On the second point you are flat out lying. We're not all alcoholics like you, richard. Many of use can be near alcohol without being compelled to drink it.

"Do I have that about right??"

Not even close.

Richard...you have it all wrong..there are NO "pro-gun" nuts. All the " nuts" are anti -gun / anti-constitution. and to Ringo...There is No "pro gun" agenda. the agenda is anti-gun anti-constitutional rights. And as a plain matter of fact people carry concealed hand guns every day in states that do not allow a permit. You don't need a permit to exersize a Constitutional Right. Read article 6 of the preamble to the constitution of the united states of america. Even today you will see a person who has a concealed gun and you won't even know it. Do you feel any different then? You think that you can tell if a person has a gun? You can't ! If they are in compliance with a ccw law you will not be able to tell that they have a gun. Does that scare you? The next time that you see a college aged person wearing a back pack can you tell if it has books in it? You can't

So let me get this straight just for my own edification.

The pro-gun nuts say cars are just as dangerous as guns, but you can't drive impaired.

But now to suit their agenda you can bring your gun to a bar where obviously whether you are supposed to or not you will drink.

Do I have that about right??

No, Richard, I don't think you quite have it. The Point is to go after the PEOPLE who commit the Crime, whatever it may be, and not go after the Tool Used in the Commission of the Crime. For Example, a Young Man in South Side Chicago was beaten to Death last Thursday. The Weapon of Choice? Wooden Planks. Does that mean We should Outlaw Wooden Planks? Or Maybe we should Put the Wooden Planks on TRIAL? No, We Try the Thugs that Beat this Young Man to Death. Get the Picture Now, Ol' Buddy?

Why all the shouting? Both the right and left got something--the NRA can trumpet how its expanded 2nd amendment rights; the trial lawyers now have a whole new tort area to exploit.

Maybe you should actually read the article.

eminent sense...? right!...where do you people come from? are you all in russia? didn't you ever go to school? just because there is a gun don't mean that there will be a shooting. does it? The person who passed you yesterday who had a gun under his/her shirt or in their pocket did not shoot you did they? The NRA is us. we are traffic cops, nurses, judges, computer technicians, bank tellers, factory workers, ect. and we are everywhere. And you know that the Pakistani that you bought gas from on your way to work, has a gun under his shirt, and is really from Iraq.

Uh, Craig, where does that Law say that you are REQUIRED to carry a Gun in a Bar? Also, all the law says is that you May carry a Gun into a bar, IF the Bar Permits it. Now, perhaps many of you are not familiar with some of the Rural Parts of Arizona, but Guess What? There are Still Cowboys There, and they actually still Carry Guns. Why? For Many Reasons, sometimes to kill a Potential Danger such as a Mountain Lion, Rattlesnake, etc., in places where there is No 911 Service, or to Put an Injured Animal Down. There are also other Dangers in that part of the Country, mainly from the Smugglers of Drugs and Human Beings. Rather than leave their Guns out in their Vehicles, where they could wind up in the Hands of Criminals who may either steal their Vehicles or just the Guns in them, They can now choose to Take Their Guns In to Keep Them Safe and Out of the Hands of Criminals. Never Assume Anything until You have The Full Picture, Craig, and also Try Leaving Off the Name Calling, just makes You Look Bad.

Go back to your communist country.

Pejuta...

I am very familiar with the exact areas and culture you are describing. But on Friday and Saturday nights, when we went into town to have a good time, I don't recall anyone thinking we would meet a rattlesnake or a mountain lion, or need to put any injured animals down.

The object was to get together with our friends, maybe make some new ones, and the guns were left at home, in the lockboxes in the truck or on the bike or went behind the bar.

I don't understand this new fear that is sweeping everyone's common sense out the door, and causing them to believe that even going out to a nice restaurant or a great bar for a little (or a lot of) drinking and dancing is suddenly a dangerous activity. If people feel so threatened, they need to stay home with their guns and do their drinking.

So PINCH, you Never stopped in for a "Cold One" after Work? Are you intentionally Trying to be Obtuse? Have You or any of Your Friends worked as a Cowboy, as I have? Did I Suggest that Anybody was going to find a Rattlesnake or Mountain Lion in a Bar or Resturant, as You Seem to Suggest in Your Comment?And Finally, Doesn't the Bar or Resturant Owners or Operators Have the Final Say as to whether One may Bring Firearms Into Their Establishments?Try Reading the Article, and also, Try Asking some Real Ranch Hands About This. You May Just Learn Something.

Craig, you are a disgrace to the USA. You and all the freakin little whiners who cry for protection from a government that is not prepared or required to give it. Of all the guarantees we have in this country, YOUR SAFETY IS NOT ONE OF THEM! You no why no other countries fear the USA anymore? It's because of latte drinkin wastes of life like yourself. Spitting out numbers that you heard somewhere else with no understanding what-so-ever. Most importantly, us "gun people" jump a lot of hurdles to get our legally held firearms and are a totally seperate group from those going to the bar to get wasted. You know the best thing about you anti gun nut jobs? You don't have any guns!!!

Wow you gun owners are really pissed off. Good its about time you get fed up with this regime and its closet communist supporters trampling your rights.

Preventative laws are an outrage. Stop passing allows based on what might happen and punish what does happen.

Pejuta,

What's With All the Capitilized Words? Do You Have Some Type of OCD Issue With the Shift Key on Your KeyBoard??? Just wondering...

pejuta...

You better believe we stopped in for a lot of cold ones on many occasions, but when you're working out on a range far from town, which I gather you are not familiar with, you are too darn busy and too darn tired to go running into town every night. You usually have beer in the bunkhouse, since you don't usually just pass town on your way back in.

You get in there on the weekends after payday. Your rifle stayed in the bunkhouse and if you have your gunbelt with you, it got checked behind the bar.

Then you had a good time.

Craig, site your sources. For Example, according to a CBS Report from Sept. 15, 2009, the FBI reported a Total of 14,180 murders in the United Statesin 2008. Of These Murders, 71.9% were Attributed to Firearns for a Total of about 10,195. Of Those Murders, 88.3 percent Involved Handguns, for a Total of About 9002 Murders. I for one am Tired of People Using Phony Statistics to Support Their Arguments. You've just Shot (Pun Intended) the Hell out of Your Credibility, Pal.