The daring return of deposed President Manuel Zelaya has thrust Honduras back onto the world stage and posed a challenge to interim leaders determined to hold new elections after a June coup.
Zelaya's daring return reignites Honduras crisis
Seeded on Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:11 AM EDT (msnbc.com)


1000 Hondurans gather in the street to greet their exiled leader who was trying to turn their country over to Chavez and Castro and MSNBC says that's a big story. 100 thousand Americans gather in Washington to protest their government and MSNBC doesn't think it is news worthy. WTF.
When goons trained at the School of Americas take over a democratically elected government the USG sits on it's hands. When the President of Honduras returns to try and negotiate with the thugs it is a crisis. In spite of a US embargo the Cuba of Castro was able to establish a program of public universal health care and public college education. Venezuela had been hijacked by corporations who took their oil without any benefit of the people of that nation. Now Chavez is trying to raise the quality of life for his people by using some of the oil money to educate them give them jobs serving one another's human needs. What if Joe had oil on his land and some foreigners took his land and oil? I guess unless people like this below are making money off of war GI Joe is not happy:
They say Vance Coffman of Lockheed martin made 150 million, John Walsh of GE made 122million, L.B. Raymond of Exxon made 114 million, Michel Dell made 500 million, Davis Cote of TRW made 44 million, George David of United Technologies made 280 million, DHB David Brooks made 250 million in one year including wages, bonuses, benefits and stock options…Now that is more than a billion dollars between seven people
As long as a corporation makes money the salary and bonuses it pays CEOs is it's business not ours. When they start losing money and get a government bailout and still pay the outrageous bonuses and salaries is when I start having a problem. As far as Chavez goes he is a thug, plain and simple. When Zelaya decided to follow in his footsteps the government of Honduras wisely decided to nip it in the bud, using their laws to remove this would be dictator.
Ken , your opinion is flawed, how did you decide the Honduran Supreme Court is a bucnch of thugs ???? The exiled president tried repeatedly to change the Honduran Constitution in order to continue his hold on power and this in itself is an act of treason according to Honduran law. The citizens ( including yourself) should applaud this country for standing by it's constitution something our sad politicians and sader citizens were unable to accomplish. I suggest you worry about what has happened in your own country rather than make judgments about Honduras.
Ken, more precisely, since when do we get to interpret the constitution of another sovereign country? You might take a moment and read Article 239 of the Honduran Constitution which basically says that if you try to amend certain sections of that constitution, most especially trying to alter the one-term term limit of the presidency, you lose your citizenship [and of course that would take care of being president]. Zelaya defied this provision and the Honduran Supreme Court, and he attempted to hold a referendum to determine if Hondurans wanted to vote on amending the constitution as to guess what part. By the way, he had ballots for his referndum printed in Venezuela and delivered to Honduras. These were seized by the Honduran government on the eve of the illegal referendum and stored on an air force base. Zelaya then led a mob to storm the base and steal the ballots. Is Article 239 a sensible provision? That's none of our business. I use the example of Nixon -- he was about to be impeached and if he hadn't resigned he would have certainly have been convicted by the Senate and removed from office under OUR Constitution. What if he refused to leave the White House? If the Capitol Police forcibly removed him would that have been a coup d'etat? Would it be ok with you if the U.N. or OAS or the Soviets had tried to embargo us because of the way they interpret our Constitution? Maybe now you can see why we're meddling where we shouldn't and only because we somehow want to support a friend of Chavez, Ortega and Castro. But don't rely on me -- fact check everything I've said and then tell me I'm wrong.
Dictators are not humanitarians. Taking from the people that earned and giving it to the people that didn't, is not humane.
IT IS THE ROBBING HOOD(LUM) PRINCIPAL (taking from the people that earned and giving it to people that didn't). It's been honed to perfection by Harry and Nancy.
Tampala Lawyer, you left out the part that the ballots were partially filled in when they entered the country.
Chavez and the Castros were really being helpful. If we needed a reason to simply forget about Cuba and check in on them m in another 40 years, here it is.
Tampamouthpiece: Since when do we get to interperet the US constitution unless we are Mammon worshippers if an elite inbread class of persons who consider the rest of humanity slaves at best? If the Honduras supreme court was so right and what Zelaya did was such a crime why on your god's green earth did they not IMPEACH him? Becasue they did not have the votes but the new dictator was trained in the School of Americas. I'm going to get off of here now because I have been writing other things at the same time as writing here that I have to give more complete attention to. Besides, I have made the point that the proper way of getting rid of a leader in a democracy is to IMPEACH them not take him out of office at gunpoint (the preferable way of neo-cons). Gooday eh, later Ken
Ken -- the Honduran Supreme Court did vote, unanimously, to remove Zelaya. The vote in their legislature likewise was nearly unanimous and I'm pretty sure Zelaya is from the majority party. The interim president, Micheletti, also is a member of Zelaya's party. I might agree it was a bad idea to remove him forcefully from the country but now seeing how his presence in the country is such a disruption, I at least undedrstand why they did it. You need to lay off the stereotypes and labels Ken. Have a nice day. TL
tampalawyer
You have hit the nail on the head. I was just talking to family in Honduras and they are perplexed by the furor of Zelaya's removal. Technically he should have been charged and jailed for his own safety. Removing him from the country was possibly a bad call but there were no deaths associated with thaat process.
The false impression that Zelaya is a leftist is a long discussion but the contradictions in political labels in this situation would be comic except for the innocent folks who are suffering. But this doesn't matter to the OAS which is just an elite President's club.
Ken, reading your posts leaves me thinking you are an anarchist. Is that true? Ken, many of us have and have had contacts inside of Honduras. I've been receiving communication from a contact in Tegulcigapa since this happened. What I've been told from my contact is far different from the news. The vast majority of Hondurans want Zelaya gone. The congress and Supreme Court want him gone. The government of Honduras want him gone. Do we really need a formal vote of impeachment? Further, Zelaya was so far down the path of becoming Chavez number two that any more delays may have proved fatal. And it doesn't matter if Chavez or anyone else did any good for their country. We'd much rather Chavez, Castro, and other coup-mongers who take power by force WOULD take care of the peope, but sadly it's not the norm. What matters is that the Honduran government has declared in writing and practice that no President shall have absolute power. Zelaya knew this. He is no stranger to Honduran law. So, why did he try to change the law to give himself absolute power? He was going to do what he was going to do, and didn't care if the Judiciary and Congress didn't like it. Well, guess who won that little spat.
If Zelaya really cared about his country, he'd surrender to Micheletti's government. Three months ago. However, his current situation, and that of the family that is with him, is of his own making. He could have made concessions to the Micheletti government, and even surrendered himself to stand trial, but he lost the opportunity to come out of this with any kind of dignity. Instead he's playing the victim (always a poor position to be in ) and denying his guilt. This proves he's dishonest, and conniving. I was in Panama mopping up the last of Noriega's elite while Noriega was taking refuge in the Papal Embassy. The US Military set up floodlights, and blared hard rock music from loudspeakers, 24/7. What did Noriega do? He surrendered, and was tried and convicted. Now I know that some of the posters here will cry "See! He tried to cooperate and got imprisoned for it!". Well, I hope no one is that naive. Noriega IS guilty. So is Zelaya. And he knows it. That's why he's whining about fearing for his life. He wants Honduras invaded to reinstall him as dictator.
Zelaya’s short and drug-affected brain cannot see the bloodshed of innocent people that may result out of his egocentric and irresponsible return.
Irrelevent. Military coup is taboo in South America, and like it or not, he is right in his belief that term limits are fundamentally un-democratic.
He was removed by lawful order gamerk2 for trying to change the constitution to suit his plans to be "dictator for life". I guess if our current liberal President decides term limits are "un-democratic" (you've got that a$$-backwards as nothing is MORE democratic than term limits) you'd support him. The fact is Central America needs an enema from curs like Chavez and Zelaya.
gamerk
All democracies have provisions for removing corrupt elected officials from office, even here in the US. The fact is that the Honduran Supreme court, in conjunctive with overwhelming support from the Honduran Legislature, issued a warrant for his arrest for very serious crimes. It wasn't a Military coup.
As for your claim that term limits are un-democratic, WTF are you talking about? What could be mor democratic. I suppose that the requirement that the POTUS be at least 35 is also un-democratic or that POTUS must be a naturalized citizen is also un-democratic. All democracies have limits placed upon their elected officials, term limits are just one of them.
BTW, my father was guidance counselor for 35 years in both high schools and colleges. Never, not once, in all that time did he recommend to anyone to become career politican. You want to know why...because its not a career. It's something you do, then get out and reconnect with reality. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Alice : what about our civil war, was it worth fighting for?
Yep, when the people who were trained at the School of Americas take down a democratically elected government fascist, neo-capitalist, neo-conic, Rush Limbaugh wanna bees gotta be happy! Yet they won't give Obama any credit for ignoring the principles this nation was built on and caving into them by not defending democracy; doing nothing to restore democratic rule to Honduras. Obama is keeping the wars going and lining the pockets of war profiteers, letting the right wingers install dictators around the world, the good ol' party boys should be praising Obama. Hail to the Chief!
Name one right wing dictator that's come to power in the past 5 years let alone 8 months.
GAMERK, KEN Driessen, that is not your decision or any of your business.
Their constitution makes it an illegal act, to attempt to amend that provision of their constution, the Zelaya was removed by the congres and Supreme Court of that nationfo violation of the Constitution.
Their Constution, makes it a lwas to limit terms you can believe it's not democratic and it's still non eof your business.
Personally, I believe anyone supporting Zelaya in this is a shill for Chavez and Casrto.
I agree Alice! We were surprised when it was announced that Zelaya entered the country- with Venezuelan papers. You could see Chavez (he was being filmed) monitoring and talking on the phone while Zelaya was entering the country. They are hiding in the Brazilian embassy and the light/water has been cut off there. This man does not have any idea the CAOS he has caused when he entered the country. We are scared on what is about to happen in the next few hours...
Zelaya supporters are damaging the country: blowing up cop cars, damaging/burning buildings, hitting cops and innocent people, robbing, etc. This man does not care about the country, all he cares is about himself. He KNOWS he is in danger of getting killed- yet he still entered the country. Obama and Hillary should stay out of it and leave us alone in this matter. They have cut foreign aid and does not recognize the new president. The whole world is against us... Obama has shown his true colors by siding with dictators who changed the constitution and have the control of power until their deaths. I am very proud of my country for standing up against these people and show them that we will not give back the power to a "new dictator." The reason he came was to cause a scandal for the new meeting of the UN in Washington. This man should go to trial and go to jail, even though it will not happen because he has money (10 bank accounts were found under his name from all around the world... our money) and will bribe people in the government. May God bless Honduras and let's hope that this crisis ends soon.
Bella, I'm not against you. Obama's days are numbered. If he is re-elected, then truly we can say the inmates are running the assylum. Perhaps after four years, the juveniles that, out of their inexperience in life, voted him in, will have seasoned a bit and discovered that sometimes there is peace only on the other side of the war, and that the news media cares more about deadlines than accuracy and truth. Hopefully they'll be somewhat wiser and whoever replaces Obama will reverse, as much as possible, the effects of this administration's insanity.
There's lots of us who believe in national sovereignty, and Honduran rights to self-govern.
You know, this thing...Zelaya getting booted, Micheletti taking over, didn't happen in a vacuum. It confuses me why world leaders would condemn this action. I've never really gotten that...it just doesn't make sense. I could understand it if they were like Iran, when the Shah was overthrown, and radical Islam became the order of the day. The US was actually powerless. Not only did any aid from us cease, the new regime didn't want it. They hate us. I could see if the ones that booted Zelaya were radical extremists. But they're not. It's the legal government of a country removing a criminal president. And, the working, productive citizenry support the action. So, I'm wondering what has the world in such a state that all the leaders would condemn the removal of Zelaya? The only thing I can think of can be summed up in one word:
Precedent.
If Honduras can come out of this noble and righteous, it would give the green light to any other country to boot their president. If the US and other nations took a position of "Yes, we see what a little dictator Zelaya wanted to be. Here, Micheletti and Honduras, let us help you." , then if the nations ever condemned the removal of another president, they could be called hypocrites. But then that doesn't make sense either, since approval of the removal of criminal president is really a case by case basis, and no factors are alike.
Who knows, Bella. Perhaps God has some plan. I know as for me, I've been praying for God's Spirit to sweep into Peru from the North like a raging river. Perhaps it will begin in Honduras.
Hi Levi,
Obama has not been making wise decisions lately (Ex. people wanting answers regarding healthcare) and regarding foreign affairs, his stance on many issues has been very weak. I really wish he could read the Honduran Constitution (doesn't seem like he has) and admit that he was wrong in supporting a President who wanted to change the Constitution. Instead, he blames the "coup." A great majority of the Honduran people support the new President. We were tired of Zelaya's lies and doing nothing for our country. We were just sinking into a deeper hole, trapped, and not knowing how to get out of our misery.
When he left, we were at peace. Since the US cut the foreign aid, it has been very difficult for us but little by little we are overcoming the obstacles. People went back to work, back to working harder to prosper. 100,000 people marched through the streets demanding peace. Now he is back and we are scared on what is about to happen. Our peace has been ruined and many can't go to sleep at night. There is a curfew until 6pm Wednesday and everyone is staying at home doing nothing. I think something is about to happen that we don't know (there are rumors that some troops have entered the country but we don't know from who). Zelaya's days are numbered and he will give up in that embassy. His power is weakening by the minute and the whole world will see how strong and right we were in defending our Constitution... it's only a matter of time...
As I understand it, Bella, only military aid has been stopped. Humanitarian aid still continues though. Or so I've read. It would be terrible for Americans to risk jail by continuing to contribute funds to charitable causes in Honduras.
I found it sad and yet noteworthy to hear the President of El Salvador today speak of continental unity, and how he's working to reestablish normal relations with Cuba. Seems to me his idea of Latin American unity is under the banner of Communism.
Even so, Lord Jesus, come.
Hi Levy, yes... only military aid has been cut. It's still a caos here especially with the ultimatum that was given to the Brazilian embassy to take Mel out of the embassy and be arrested. Now, President Lula seems like he rules Honduras and is trying to tell us what to do. However, the Brazilian congress agrees that what Zelaya did was irresponsible and should not invite people to protest against the goverment... we will see!
Now that he has returned, perhaps it will be easier to arrest him and put him in his rightful place - his prison cell.
Yeah, hopefully one about 6 feet under the jail.
Let's have a Grand Old Party. All leaders around the world elected by the majority of the people should be jailed or killed and only people selected by rich people should hold office. The world should be one big plutocracy. Can I be a republican now please? If I support rule by shadow capitalist money people can I get the crumbs of chump change as a conspiracy debunker? I just want to be a republican and pet the bunny. Can I pet the bunny George? It is so nice and soft just like a dictator George.
Ken the reason Zelaya was removed is he tried to circumvent his country's constitution. As far as majorities as long as less than half of those eligible vote, we'll end up with empty suits like George "W" Bush,John Kerry,John McCain and Barrack Obama as our choices for President.BTW I'll always consider John McCain the POW a hero. John McCain the politician? Not.
KEN DRiessen, you are obvioussly a shill for Chavez, go away.
I suggest all you experts on international law go back to school and while you're at it first learn about the injustice in this country and leave Honduras to the Hondurans, Zayeles tried to change their constitution and by doing so committed treason.
Zelaya tried to hold a national referendum on the constitution and that is a (crime?) but Bush overriding our constitution is an act of god. If a democratically elected president in this nation gets a blow job he gets impeached so why did the Hondurans not Impeach Zelaya? Because person's trained in the school of the Americas ousted him and they knew that the neo-cons would prevent President Obama from doing anything to restore democracy in Honduras. Might makes right and money for war profiteering chicken hawks too.
KEN DRIESSEN I'll try one more time with you beinga s yous eem to have a tremenous amount of trouble getting facts.
Yes, when Zelaya tried hold a referendum , it was a crime.Their comstitution specifies that it is a crime to try to change that act. They have been there before with quasi socialist dictators.
Zelay violated the constitution three different times. He went to congress and tried to arrange a ballot, and was told no, it is illegal. Then he went to the Supreme Court and tried to arrange a ballot and was told no.
Then he called the Army in and told them to arrange a ballot and was told no. He fired the head of the Armed Foprces for that refusal and the Supreme Court reinstated him
He had ballots flowin from Venezuela for the referendum, when it wa s discovered that the ballots were already partially filled in,the congres aimpeached him and the Supreme Court directed the Army to arrest him He was given the choice of standing trial or leaving the country and cjhose to leave the country.
One last time they impeached him legally wherther you and Chavez like it or not
NavyNuke
Point well taken, I thought my point that I didn't agree with Obama was enough but you stated exactly how I feel about what is happening in Hondura and with our government...Obama is listening to the SAPC South American Parlimintarian Coalition and Hilary Clinton for his South American foreign Policy and it it totally wrong...
Honduras and their government are following Democratic principles and their constitutional rule of law...Obama and the US government are backing the wrong horse in this issue...
Sorry if I was not clear on that point.
ISpeakFalshoods...
I see your response to factual data is to again spew hate and non-refuting discourse. Please refrain from posting as listening to you makes me shoot my Honduran black coffee out my nose.
Or please continue but try poopy-head or some other mean word to get your "truth" across.
Hey Kennie Dreissen: NO GOVERNMENT HAS THE RIGHT TO INTERFERE IN ANOTHERS COUNTRIES BUSINESS, and that goers for the USA and BRAZIL, CUBA, VENEZULA, or any other country. Their own Supreme Court and elected officials - including his own party - ordered the military to remove him and they did by taking him to Costa Rica and not prison. That Mr. Socialist is called LEGAL. His returning and hiding in the Brazilian Embassy is just another slap in the face of a legal government executing its legal rights - not a bloodshed riot, or military shootout. In the past we as a country messed many others up and have been paying the price ever since, but at least we admitted it and and are trying. The goverment of Honduras elected every person involved in Zelaya's removal so that also is LEGAL. You have NO leg to stand on. If Honduras has to go it alone because of countries meddling in their internal affairs, then they are the ones that are responsible for any drop of blood shed!!! Like Cuba, maybe Honduras can go it alone and survive, but at least THEY did it without backseat cowardly drivers telling them what to do and they themselves never lived there.
Ah.. Vet if it was even a majority of elected officials that wanted him out should they have not held IMPEACHMENT hearings and voted to impeach him? I admit I'm arguing even farther left than what I believe but the right here is only a direction that espouses fascist plutocracy rule of the world. I suppose the Vet would consider this Wiki article on Zelaya all biased, leftist and commie? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Zelaya I'm not saying this Zelaya is the best guy in the world but he was elected and a coup of School of America trained persons took him out. If you think that is a good thing what does that make you if I'm a socialist?
I think it's a great thing they removed Zelaya when he tried to align with Hugo Chavez, circumvent the constitution and appoint himself dictator for life.
Ken
I challenge you to provide us with one name of any member of the Honduran Supreme Court that attended the School of the Americas.
JUST ONE, PLEASE.
IF you want to read what all the fuss is about the WSJ did a fairly balanced piece detailing the events here...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124623220955866301.html
Drew, you are correct -- that is an excellent and accurate piece.
That Wall Street Journal piece is as biased as the persons writing above. Bush read the pet goat on 9/11 therefore he acted against his oath to defend the US. US people who believe we was at least complacent in the 9/11 false flag attack and probably planned it should have removed him from office by coup, right? If what the drew and the lawyer say was true, the other elected Honduras officials should have IMPEACHED Zelaya. Instead they knew that a half white US president would toe the line and not change the US policy of installing dictators while professing democracy. Shame on the neo-right again, they are undemocratic, unpatriotic and just plain wrong.
Ken Driessen,
You amaze me, one minute I think you're taking the far right wacko position, then you jump far left radical and then you go center logical moderate...I swear you must tap dance like a fiend...or it's all intentional to stimulate us all :P
Let me see if I can compress your posts to what I think you're trying to say...
Obama is a weak kneed lilly livered coward who won't stand up to anyone... Castro and Chavez on the other hand are wonderful humanitarians who's only concern is caring for their loving people... George Bush is a dictator but he was our loving dictator so you wont go against him but you don't like him very much... The US should dictate to the world how to live...
I hope I have summed it up ok for you? Let me know if i missed anything...
Chuck T. Good post Short and to the point. I am not sure that these "experts" need to learn International law. I think they need to understand that other countries have a right to demacratically radify a Constitution. The Hondurans have done a great job with developing their Demacratic Goverment. All their Surpreme court justices voted to oust Zeyela and all but 3 of their Congress did the same. If that type of overwelming vote were to happen here.......wait that is a fantasy, on any issue. It seems that it is proper to judge other countries based on how our Goverment works in the US. I am at a loss as to why we are not supporting the Constitution of Democratic Honduras. The Obama adminstration made a snap decision to condemn them and are too arrogent to admit they are wrong. I thought our country was built on fighting for Democracy, both here and abroad.
Ken Driessen...
Your facts are horribly skewed from a pro Chavaz Socalist view. I only have to assume you are a loving follower of Chavez to believe this stuff...
You say:
"Venezuela had been hijacked by corporations who took their oil without any benefit of the people of that nation. Now Chavez is trying to raise the quality of life for his people by using some of the oil money to educate them give them jobs serving one another's human needs. What if Joe had oil on his land and some foreigners took his land and oil? I guess unless people like this below are making money off of war GI Joe is not happy:"
In point of fact British and US oil companies PAID for the oil and drilling rights...THEN PAID to develop the wells and the REFINERIES... what did your fearless leader do? He expelled all foreign ownership of the oil and refineries and took control of all Oil and Natural gas in Venezuela...yes he then raised the minimum wage by what? 13 cents over 4 years? whoop de do. Lets see what else your fearless leader has done just lately...1. Shutdown ALL television stations in Venezuela and placed them under a Chavez governing panel controlling all broadcasts....2. Shutdown 53 radio stations some deaths were reported...and placed all radio under the same panel...3. Instituted "trade cargo inspection" at all Venezuelan ports and has seized over 2 billion worth of goods and equipment without payment... and this is just in that last few months... Yeah poor poor Venezuelan dictator he was only trying to feed the poor...
Bush, Ted Turner and Rupert Murdock controlled the US news when millions of people around the US protested against chicken hawk repugnant war profiteers leading us into endless war on Terra yet those protests never made the national news. When a handful of tea party neo-cons go to Washington DC making out our democratically elected mixed race president to be a Nazi it is big news on FOX CNN and even here on MSNBC. Whenever the plutocratic pigs of the sicko greedy Mammon worshipping minority of this nation don't like a democratically elected leader they call him a dictator. Duh.
Bush, Ted Turner and Rupert Murdock controlled the US news lie
when millions of people around the US protested against chicken hawk repugnant war profiteers leading us into endless war on Terra yet those protests never made the national news. lie
When a handful of tea party neo-cons go to Washington DC making out our democratically elected mixed race president to be a Nazi it is big news on FOX CNN and even here on MSNBC. On Fox true, the rest is a lie.
Whenever the plutocratic pigs of the sicko greedy Mammon worshipping minority of this nation don't like a democratically elected leader they call him a dictator. lie
If voters are intimidated and vote counts rigged it doesn't count as a democratically elected leader,Ken.
Ken
You're delusional. Carrying on a logical dialoge with someone in your state of mind is impossible. Please ask your doctor to up your meds.
BTW, they're watching you right now, listening, plotting.
Dear Fred: If votes counted Gore would have been president.
Ken
Maybe you should actually read the US Constitution before you start making false claims. I refer you to Article II, section 1 and to the 12th Amendment.
Get your facts straight or shut up.
He is a Chavez shill.
Thank God Ozone Al was "robbed" or we'd all be riding the moving sidewalk to work.
ken
I cringe at talking to you. But. Did you know that Gore went to court in Florida to stop the counting the the absentie military vote?
No?
He won. He took away the right to vote from the people that desirve it most.
I am more than a little shocked at the number of people, (assuming American people) that are supporting a would be dictator.
If GBush did this, would you say it was for the oil?
If Obama demanded a run at a third term, would you be ok with that?
Basic facts are; He tried to break the law, so he could break the Constitution.
South America is full of dictators. We should support the non-dictatorships, even if we don't totally like the way they went about it.
Maybe we should just stay out of it and let their own people decide the issue, a radical thought for all those know it alls. The US has no business getting involved with this.
"The US has no business getting involved with this."
You are correct, cyfi. If anything, the U.S. should be applauding the actions of the current government of Honduras.
cyfi. The Hondurians would like nothing more. It was the Obama Administration, Hugo Chavez and others that are threatning Democracy in Honduras. The Hondurians can and will handle this regardless of outside pressure! We have lost credibility with all other Democratic countries.
But what about the oil?
What about aiding the spread of socialism? You can't have 3rd world countries telling the Democrat American Pres to mind his own business!!
How dare you think of another countries sovereignty!!
Edwin, Ha!
Today Honduras's sovereignty. Tomorrow ours.
Zelaya is nothing but a wannabe leftist dictator who was in the process of making himself president for life when he was arrested and removed from power. He needs to be exiled permanently.
He's a fake leftist. But I agree he wanted to be dictator and tried to bypass the constitution.
CYFI
That is all well and good... peaches and creamy...but,
The US has been deep in Honduran politics since 1982...The only reason I can fathom that President Obama is backing a deposed radical socialist like Zelaya is the fact that Zelaya promises to keep our Southern Forward Command there in Honduras.
http://www.ciponline.org/facts/soto.htm LOOK IT UP IF YOU DESIRE....
Where as Micheletti and the congress want the US to back the heck off interdiction and their presence within Honduras.
Honduras wants the funds and training don't get me wrong. but they want to run their OWN country and military... Kinda hard with Big Brother telling them where and who to strike in their own country...
Other than that sure I agree we should let them deal with it...
and as to us voicing our opinions here on newsvine...well all I can say is i'm glad I am BACK in the USA where it is legal to voice ones opinion without the fear of being killed in the night.
President Obama is wrong to support the reinstatement of Zelaya. I call the shots as I see them. It does not matter that I am a Democrat. Wrong is wrong and I'll be the first to say so. I've never shied away from criticizing and condemning members of the Democratic party when I feel they've made incorrect or irrational decisions. In this case, President Obama is throwing his support behind a man whose desire is to turn Honduras into a leftist state aligned with the leftist government of Hugo Chavez, thus enhancing Chavez's dream of a leftist Central and South America.
What the hell is President Obama thinking?
It wasn't a coup. The US journalists covering this should stop just blindly repeating the one-sided information they're given again. Check out the view of an American in Honduras: http://lagringasblogicito.blogspot.com/
The US journalists, save for a few, and the mega media MSNBC and CNN should be sued for libel with damages of $100 million each being a fair settlement ... 3 months after the fact, they are still referring to a coup or a military coup, and a de facto government, when a branch of the US justice system, at the request of the US State Department, have now finally studied the facts and declared that it was neither, to the embarrassement I'm sure of Hillary Clinton, who appears to be consumed by the will to return Zelaya to power ... to accept the so-called "San Jose Accord", when I thought "accord" meant agreement, and Micheletti did not and would not ever agree to reinstate a criminal to the office of the President ...
I think the woman is sick and cannot admit she made a hasty and serious miscall 3 months ago, based on false information from her corrupt Ambassador to Honduras, a personal friend and business associate of drug running Zelaya, and still doesn't have the balls to admit she was wrong ... and now that Zelaya is back in the country, feeling confident he has her support, the egomaniac will no doubt incite riots and possibly civil war to achieve his ends ...
Hillary should be held personally liable for every single injury and death that may occur here ... and then tossed out of office for her arrogance and stupidity ...
How can a democracy prosecute people who want to amend their constitution? In a true democracy, there is a legal process for this, and asking for such a legal process should not be a crime in any democratic nation. How can so-called “democratic leaders” stage a coup, rather than call for an impeachment, and pretend that this is a legal action? Democratic institutions and the rule of law must be preserved. Zelaya must be restored as president, and the discussion about constitutional reform in Honduras must be allowed to go forward….let the people decide, not the gun-wielding, freedom-hating powermongers who are trying to bring back a reign of terror in Central America.
Mary, Hondurian constitution has over 170 provisions. All but a 4 or 5 can be changed through a process started in their Congress. The President cannot take it upon himself to do this process. Just as you cannot change our Constitution. I am sure one of the reasons for this is so a corrupt leader cannot do what Chavez has done in Venezula. You are using your American perception of what is far without taking the time to consider what the millions of people in Honduras want. Our Goverment, CNN, MSNBC dubbed this a Military Coup because as Americans we are against a "Coup" ecspecially a military one. Put youself in the shoes of a Hondurian and re-evaluate what is going on. Don't buy what our mainstream press is selling.
Well said, Roatanbob, and true.
Roatanbob
You've hit the nail on the head. The person who attempted a coup was Zelaya.
MARY-H
There is a little more to it than that.
read Article 239 of the Honduran Constitution which SPECIFICALLY says that a sitting PRESIDENT CANNOT try to amend certain sections of the constitution, most especially trying to alter the one-term term limit of the presidency, you lose your citizenship [and of course that would take care of being president].
1. Zelaya first asked the Honduran Congress to propose the Admendment to change the Term limits which the CONGRESS can legally do...THEY REFUSED
2. Zelaya Then went to the Supreme Court and request they order a referendum be submitted to the public posting the constitutional change on the November ballot... THEY REFUSED
3. Zelaya Then had his buddy CHAVEZ PRE-Mark and send Reforrendum ballots to a military base to be distributed to the public by the military. HIS SUPREME GENERAL REFUSED AND ZELAYA FIRED HIM...THE CONGRESS REHIRED HIM...
4. THEN Zelaya tried to storm the military base with 200 Venezuelans that he gave citizenship to the WEEK before to take the ballots and distribute them...THEY WERE FORCIBLY ejected from the base!!!
So yes Mary the Honduran Constitution CAN be modified...But it takes either a Referendum authorized by the Congress or the Congress can submit an ADMENDMENT to the constitution and change it that way...but a PRESIDENT can NOT!!! just run out and decide to run his own referendum on the issue and demand the change be placed on the next presidential ballot...
********************
Zelaya defied this provision So, Congress and the Honduran Supreme Court, with only 3 Congressmen "Disenting" submitted an ORDER OF ARREST for VIOLATIONS OF article 239 section 2 and 3 of their constitution...sadly the Military instead of arresting him like they were supposed to do shoved him on a plane and out of the country...that is why we have the problem now...
I hope this clears it up for you...
Drew.
Drew, even better! Great post!
Well said, Drew. President Obama and other leaders of Western countries are wrong. I am extremely disappointed in President Obama for taking such a stance. It sends the wrong signal to the citizens of Honduras.
Well said, Drew -- you supplied even more detail than what my research found. I'm glad they deported him because he might have been able to better further his efforts to grab power had he been permitted to stay. Look at the trouble he's causing now that he's back.
As to Mary, if the Hondurans ratified a constitution that restricts its amendment in certain regards, that's their prerogative and not for us to critique. There are plenty of governments in the world with which we remain friends or at least gladly recognize and which have governments far less "democratic" than that in Honduras. For example, China, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Indonesia, and Egypt for starters. Shouldn't we start rewriting their constitutions for them before we do so for Honduras?
Drew thank you for posting that information! This will give people a better idea on what we are fighting for... But by reading the comments, I can see that the majority agree with what we did against this "dictator-in progress."
Thanks Roatanbob...
I wish Obama would read it and wake up to what he is being shoveled by his "advisors"...
Drew, I worry about the people of Honduras. Every article I read refer to the "impovished" nation of Honduras. They may be poor, but they are proud and brave. We here can learn from them. Standing up for their Constitution and democracy. Impovished ? The Hondurian Goverment has not bailed out their banks! We take human rights for granted. Hondurians are doing what is needed to just ensure their basic rights and freedom! We should either help them or stay out of it!!!!!
that's true Roatanbob ... but it's a little too late to stay out of it .... so the US had better start helping ... fast !!! ... but what fools they have made of themselves ! ... to insist that a criminal be reinstated to the Presidency of a peaceful democratic country after he has been legally removed from office, according to the laws and constitution of that country ... only the US could be that arrogant ...
My opinion of Mel Zelaya just continues to plunge. Doesn't he care about Honduras?
Mel Zelaya cares about nothing but Mel Zelaya ... and maybe his horses and motorcycles ... anything else? ... nope ... not an ounce of caring ...
No, he doesn't care! He is loving the attention right now but his days are numbered!! I hope he goes to jail along with those who are inside the embassy. Shame on President Lula (Brazil) for bringing back Zelaya and for trying to reinstate him. He is saying that he didn't have anything to do with the return of Zelaya... another puppet from Chavez! May God bless Honduras!!
So, now the defacto Honduran government may storm the Brazilian embassy to arrest Zelaya? Defying international conventions? Gee, even the Nazis respected embassies.
Mary, You have already made up your mind on what you are going to beleive. You have your convictions as the Hondurian people do. Good for you! Also I am not surprised that you are an authority on what the Nazis did 60 years ago. It might be time to update your rhetoric.
Mary ... no one needs to storm the emabssy ... the interim government only needs to deploy tactics recently learned from their allies, the USA ... it's called sanctions ... cutting off aid ... but in this case, aid for the embassy is power, water, sewage treatment, telephone lines, cable and deliveries of food ...
Mel's tastes for nothing but 5 star hotels, while his supporters sleep on the ground, hungry, are well known ... he'll come out on his hands and knees, weeping, in no time !
Umm Mary,
Where did you get the ideal that the Nazis didn't storm embassies and churches?
The SS did not recognize the territorial or religious sovereignty of either.
Regarding Honduras relax they won't storm the embassy...If they do they know they loose all credibility.
Wake up America. We are next. With idiots like Mary out there and liberal slanted news likw MSNBC puts out, we are next.
Below is from an email I just received from a friend in Honduras.
"honduras has the brazilian embassy surrounded, cut power, water and communications and blaring music into the embassy. about 300 mel supporters ran from police, 100 were caught and are being detained at the soccer stadium. the army dispersed a crowd of about 2000 mel supporters this after they burned and looted around the brazilian embassy. tear gas and water cannons did the trick."
My buddy sent a tweet around 1pm est and said there were maybe a total of 200 people around the embassy mostly Zel supporters dressed as farmers but they are for the most part dressed in new clothing? Sounds like we don't have to look to far for Zelaya's Venezuelan Thugs he let in the country before he was ousted. They are all there pretending to be Hondurans for the press...
Oh yeah and his CO said they were all ordered off the streets and back to base. No US personnel are to be near the embassy...so no more info :( sniff/.
Family and friends are staying in their homes. Zelaya's lack of concern for the Honduran people is just an old Zelaya family tradition.
thanks for this Drew ... I live on the island of Roatan ... calm here but curfew in effect .. watching local TV channels and witnessing the senseless vandalism in Tegucigalpa on the part of Zelaya's hired, brainless thugs ... the ones with false Honduran passports and Venezuelan accents ...
Sorrenti
My wife's Father is in Tegucigalpa. It is a worry. Don't know why but the phone was cutting in and out today. Zelaya has caused such a mess. I will watch this post for further news if I lose contact with him. I've heard that the US has suspended all visas from Honduras. Another humanitarian problem caused by the massive disinformation that has fueled the crisis. Regards, Mike