Yes...

There are weight limits. You can be disqualified for being to big or too small. There are special diets to help them loose weight. If he got through boot-camp he was in solid condition.

and Sarah, you shouldn't talk about things when you don't know the answer.

How do you know?????????????????????????? Another know it all with no facts, just speculaltion!!

"Full Metal Jacket" coming to life, big time!

Edwin, I do know the answer. You can deploy when you are "overweight." You can also come in "overweight." Depending on your body build, especially as a male in the Army, it's easy to fail weight, and subsequently the tape test. It also didn't say he was fresh out of basic training. He might have had a few months at his base, chowed down on Doritoes and Mountain Dew... and this isn't Vietnam, nor is BCT equivalent to the SFQC. Soldiers come out of training in a myriad of physical conditions, not all of them PT stud.

This isn't about the victim's personal issues, this is about those idiots that took their G.I. Joe thing too fr'ck'n far. They should have let the Army take care of it, and worry about themselves.

My condolences to the family and friends of Private Keiffer P. Wilhelm.

it's people like this who give us soliders a bad rap. every solider goes through tough training and physical contact training. since i am in the marines, it is even worse than when i was in the army.

HRdawg, you got it right. Finally someone posted on the real issue here. Fitness is a legitimate topic under the proper circumstances but here it is NOT the issue. The extreme cruelty to a fellow human being to drive him to such despair as to cause him to commit suicide isn't much above the terrorists who are operating in Iraq and Afganistan.

The issue isn't really with his weight. It is extreme and unnecessary control of a lower ranked soldier.

Don't we have enough enemies that we must start attacking our own soldiers?

Throw the book at all four of these men. We should be able to trust sgts with our children (he was only 19!!).

How terrible. We all think of 19 year olds as "adults" so that they can be sent to the front lines (old enough to kill but not old enough to drink!). But they are still children and very vulnerable. How is this different from college-age kids being hazed and committing suicide?

Being a fat guy my first reaction was to think that the NCO's being charged were absolutely in the wrong and under no circumstances justified in their actions....my second reaction, being an ex marine who served in the early 70's (no VIETNAM service, I don't want to insinuate that I have combat experience) is that I need to know that if I am in combat the guy next to me is able to physically perform his duties as my life just might depend on it. In boot camp we were pretty much terrorized daily by the DI's and "pit calls" were almost hourly events. While I initially wanted to fault the NCOs I have to consider that 1. I wasn't there, and 2. I sure as hell want someone in the foxhole next to me that can perform their duties so I have a better chance of getting out alive.

It's not so much a question of his physical condition as his mental condition. If he was mentally able to get though basic how is it he only lasted 10 days with these guys? Maybe the cold reality of war set in. You don't see dead people in basic training.

A person in the unit who is not physicallt fit, is a danger to the unit. I note all of these people are NCO's , it's likely thewere under presuure to get this guy into good physical condition. Whe I was in the Marine Corps, he probably would have had some blanket and entrenching tool parties.

10 years in prison for some fat jokes... IN THE MILITARY? R U SERIOUS....

This guy should not have been there in the first place if he was prone to kill himself from verbal "abuse".... and if he was not fit.

would any of them have objected if this over weight soldier saved the life?

Grammar Officer, have you ever heard of depression? It doesn't have to be brought on by anyone or anything. It can sometimes be chemical and not environmental. If--and this is only speculation--he was suffering to begin with, suicide is a feasible outcome considering what else he had to deal with. As it stands, he was ABUSED by his superiors, which alone is a good reason to want to get away. Perhaps you should talk to other troops who have been "hazed" and then go talk to other abused people before you say anything else. You, sir, are an ignorant, vile excuse of a human being and perhaps you should meet the same fate as this young man. Oh, and there WAS a gun held to his head--his. I wish you nothing but the karma you put out to others.

What does the young man's weight status have to do with the real issue... 4 bullies making his life a living hell.

Deployment is tough enough especially out of country. I cannot speak on the Army, but I can comment that the Marine Corps- Esprit de Corps- they look after each other. Army has similar creed- Band of Brothers- follows that principal.

No one can comment on his mental condition, what stess that he was under, or what the other soldiers were doing to him and how bad.

The uniform code of military conduct (UCMJ) has strict rules on Hazing of others.

Sorry to see that he took his own life and hope those that did not help, but hurt him, are dealt with correctly.

Condolensces to the family!

Mr. Rogers, it wasn't fat jokes. Perhaps you should learn some new words and then go back and read the story. WTF is wrong with people these days? I really don't get it.

Brian: "maybe the cold reality of war set in"

Hahahaha. funny. Eh, the war is over in Iraq. Has been for awhile. Reminds me of my favorite war movie.

Cruiser: "I thought I'd better join before I got drafted."

Hulka: "Eh, son. There ain't no draft no more."

Cruiser: "There was one?"

-Cruiser from Stripes.

These are clean up crews at this point. The sad thing here is that some people in those kinds of units make up for their lame assignment by going overboard- like these Sargeants. Did they really think the mission required physical supermen?

There's another side to this also. Someone got mad at a poster suggesting the Army scraping the bottom of the barrel. Well, they are. That's not to say everyone going through is a bad egg, but there are a lot more than say 10 years ago. On top of this Drill Sargeants are working with their hands tied behind their backs. They are watched more closely for abuse and can get kicked out for yelling at recruits. When I was in it was their job to yell and to weed out the weaker soldiers. They were doing soldiers a favor who might have ended up like this kid. Maybe it wasn't politically correct but it did work.

Still, the armed forces are made up of all types and from my experience there are way more good than bad. It's a shame stories like this come out and paint a one sided view of the military.

Blackwater would have called it training. God they are evil

Good point HRDog I guess I should have added what a shame for the family.

Yes the army is desperate, esp since no administration wants to issue a draft. This isn't that poor young man's issue, the problem lies with the harrassing soldiers and those who turned a blind eye and were too cowardly to come to his defense. It was not fair to this young man to put him on the front lines if he wasn't physically fit. He was being set up for failure. It's hard enough having to perform in 100 degree heat wearing all that protective clothing when you are fit, let alone when you are carrying around extra weight.

**that guy** has a name.

Keiffer P. Wilhelm

Where were the officers in charge of these enlisted men???? This occurred over a period of time and to be unaware of what is occurring within your ranks is itself troubling!!!

To all the above comments , its about little men trying to make themselves feel good, these were the same guys who were bully's in school and on the street corner. We hear stories all the time about what men do to other men . Just a cruel heart inside a frail mind. Prosecute them , they are criminals.

falseseeker you are in the wrong post. All you want to do is spread lies about OBAMA and you don't even know what you are talking about. This post is about cruelty to a soldier and what these soldiers did to this man was way out of line and I hope the military throws the book at them.

So its okay to harrass a fellow soldier to the point of suicide....and Sarah thinks its kinda cute.   You know Doritos and all......   All four of those "soldiers" should get sentences that reflect the crime.   Thank God we  don't have a lot of "soldiers" who take it upon themselves to cause harm to their own team.   Punish them to the FULL extent of the law....

His weight has nothing to do with this. How can this be going on when people like him are putting their lives on the line?? How can our soldiers even consider cruelty toward their own?? Does anyone remember the soldiers who threw the puppy over the cliff? Same thing. Cruelty. Shame. These four *soldiers* should be jailed, made examples of and lose all of their honors and get no retirement. Sorry but an innocent is dead now.

Wizare, you are missing the point and it is clear as day. The question is not how did he get in. The question is why were his fellow soldiers soo cruel. Did you get the point.

Mr. Rogers, it wasn't fat jokes. Perhaps you should learn some new words and then go back and read the story. WTF is wrong with people these days? I really don't get it.

Look.. as a kid this can be hard.. but at 19?

Obviously there was more going on with this kid than these guys. I just can't believe you could care that much about what some idiots think or do to you that you would end your life UNLESS there was something wrong with you already.

What I am trying to say is that it is NOT ok to kill yourself because people are picking on you. As a kid or young teenager I can UNDERSTAND this more.. but at 19 or 20... NO..

Finally, if the mission is not important enough for a draft and we don't have enough then it's not important enough to have them there.

In any event, he CERTAINLY should not have been in the military.

Who said that just he wasn't in good conditition just because he was chubby? Anyone who has just completed basic training is in pretty good condition.

This is an example of the old saying that power corrupts. Fortunately, this has received some attention, and as a result, it looks like the power trippers may be punished. They deserve it, and hopefully, it will send a message to other power trippers and deter such abuse for a while.

As a veteran, I know that this type of abuse occurs too frequently because soldiers, like most government servants for that matter, think that they are all powerful and don't understand the restrictions on their power while others don’t understand their rights and how to assert them.

The soldiers fresh from boot camp don't realize that they are no longer in training, and as a result, they think that an order to do push-ups or other extra PT is a lawful order. While soldiers are required to do PT, singling one out and requiring him to do extra PT is a form of punishment which requires due process even in the military.

Unfortunately, this abuse is a type of hazing that occurs until new soldiers realize that they can ignore unlawful orders. It was tried with me a couple of times, and each time I responded with I’m not in training anymore. Finally, a sergeant told me that he was going to kick my ass if I didn’t do the push ups that he ordered, and I said, "come on." He did, and I kicked his ass.

Everyone enjoyed the short show, and the commander did nothing about it because he knew that the sergeant was out of line. Neither I nor any other new soldier was hassled in that way during the rest of the time that I was in that unit. Perhaps it was because I embarrassed the hell out of a bully or because the commander had a talk with the non-commissioned officers about abusing new soldiers.

When this type of abuse occurs, a soldier should just do as most eventually figure out and remind the abuser that he isn’t in training anymore and ignore the unlawful order. If that doesn’t stop the abuse, he should report it to his commander, and if that doesn’t stop it, he should contact the Inspector General.

If you want to know why people in government think that they are all powerful and the horrible crimes that have resulted from the loss of our right to hold them accountable, see

http://dailycensored.com/2009/06/24/why-does-the-u-s-government-torture-people/

These four *soldiers* should be jailed, made examples of and lose all of their honors and get no retirement. Sorry but an innocent is dead now.

Sorry but I think that is ridiculous. If we are making excuses for things and you are making an excuse for suicide, then we could say these soldier were under tremendous stress of being in a combat zone. Perhaps they have seen things that adversely effected them and their joking around and bullying was a way for them to feel in control of their situation.. It might have been an outlet..

In any event, I don't like people making an excuse for suicide. IF you an adult take your own life for WHATEVER reason you are NOT INNOCENT....

Yes "elchi" I added to the post further down(1.24 agreeing with HRDawg) . Everyone has a kneejerk reation(kinda like a typo lol) now and then. My 1st thought was he shouldn`t have been in that position I was basiscally blaming recruiter or superiors but not condoning the 4 punks.

When this type of abuse occurs, a soldier should just do as most eventually figure out and remind the abuser that he isn’t in training anymore and ignore the unlawful order. If that doesn’t stop the abuse, he should report it to his commander, and if that doesn’t stop it, he should contact the Inspector General.

I agree. You have to learn in life to stand up for yourself either through the proper channels or by punching someone in the nose if needed.....

I agree with you GolferMom. As it was, if Mr. Wilhelm saw action and dying and then to deal with the abuse was probably more than he could bare.

My sincere condolences to the family.

Like wizard, let me be clear. I do NOT condone the actions of the other soldiers and too place blame on the recruiters/commanding officers. My point too is that suicide is a horrible thing that inflicts more pain on the ones left than any possible pain any one person could be suffering. As a society, we need to quit condoning it as a victims last resort.

Finally, if you really want to prevent or lesson this in the future, you need to ding the commanding officers involved. This way they will set a precedent in their units that if for nothing else than having to be penalized, they would be on the look out for this behavior.

Wizard

The "professional" Army is full of people who don't belong there.  Those who love bullying, violence, and killing are plentiful in today's army.  What's worse, they do not reflect the true faces of America as in days gone by.  

Except during the Vietnam War, where those who were well connected could get out of going, we have always drafted both rich and poor, good and bad, but we always knew that they were "our kids", not some hired professional killers (as in Blackwater) who seek and thrive in this environment.  

We need to drop the ideas of Pax Americana, the dream of infinite empire ruled over by Bush's "ownership society".  Close all foreign bases, end the two senseless wars, and use the skills of those in the military to help rebuild America's infrastructure and new age of green energy.  

Give the UN peace keeping organization the support it deserves and stop playing Planet Earth's Cop.   We represent only 5/6% of mankind, we can not keep the rest of mankind under our thumb without destroying ourselves. Just food for thought.

Thank you Mr. R! You know suicide is a selfish act. Like you said the pain inflicted on those around you is horrible. My stepfather did it..I got picked on as a kid in H.S.. I`m vertically challenged lol, I had exema real bad so I was called the scabboy I had hayfever so I got to be the boogerman with his snot rag,and I knocked out my front tooth riding my motorcycle. I "was" a real prize lol. I heard it all, but suicide? naa. Maybe better mental screenings are in order.

Wow, Wizard, very powerful words, but very well-thought-out words. One of the more intelligent remarks on here.

I ask myself, if the military would do this to one of their own, how are they treating the enemy? Bullying, violence and killing is just the tip of the iceberg! No wonder we are so hated everywhere!

If the charges of malicious harrassment of Private Keiffer P. Wilhelm, I hope the four soldiers are punished to fullest extent of the law. I don't care how fat, ugly, poorly skilled, etc., someone is, no one should have to endure that kind of treatment. Soldiers put their trust in one another and depend on one another to "watch their back." Their relationships should reflect that trust.

If there are issues and concerns about another soldier, there are far better ways to deal with the problem constructively and with the goal of a better outcome. The goal should be a achieving a unit that's cohesive, strong, and capable. The responsibiliy of the unit's leader to ensure that the weak links receive the help and support for improvement that they need or are re-assigned to a job more suited to his/her abilities - nothing shameful in that.

Vicious and malicious harrassment and sabatoge should never be tolerated or overlooked ... anywhere. The leadership of this unit should also be held accountable for ignoring the problem, and believe me, they knew that Pvt. Wilhhelm was being harrassed.

My sincere condolences to the Wilhelm family. I hope enough of this comes to light that the commanders and leaders take notice and make appropriate changes where needed.

dudenorth, I don't think I mentioned "cute" anywhere...

The fact is, this IS about his weight, at least in part. That's why he was catching flak. This ISN'T about bullies, strictly speaking, at least not in that term. This isn't third grade. This isn't junior or high school. This is the United States Army, and Private Wilhelm made a conscious choice to enlist in a Combat Arms MOS, in a time of war. He made a CHOICE to end his life when it got stressful. Those were HIS choices.

If these NCOs abused their power, they should be disciplined. But to what extent did they abuse their power? We have no evidence of their crimes, only their charges in legal jargon. They were accused of abuse by excessive PT, not of battery, rape, assault, or murder. Were they unprofessional? Possibly. It sounds like they needed to be reigned in. Were they a-holes? Probably. A good number of Combat Arms boys approach the world differently than most Americans. Would charges have been filed if a Soldier hadn't committed suicide in a war zone? I'm going to lean towards no. But we don't know. We don't know what they really DID. Do they deserve to spend up to 25 years in prison? I don't think so. Dishonorable discharge? That can END your life that even a felony conviction won't.

We need to step away from our fuzzy kumbaya world and realize this ISN'T the civilian world. This was the Army in a combat zone. And, I'll say it again, we don't actually know what happened yet.

this is what happens when you send your kids to fight in an unnecessary war. They either come back screwed up or they don't come home at all. Tell me again what freedoms they were fighting for in Iraq. Tell me again how this war kept America free. Combat vets would take a long hard look before they would send any of their family members off to fight these senseless wars.

Very desparate. They are allowing known gang members, white supremacists and those with ties to drug cartels to enlist. The scum are using their enlistments to harass and recruit. This from a report released last month by the FBI. Bullies are finding Nirvana in the army. Thanks Bush for getting us into such a mess we have to take people who are almost as bad as the bad guys we are fighting.

FYI news guys...Sgts are not officers. They are senior enlisted. You'd think after all this time you could get that right. These Sgts betrayed their men.

not - a gram and mr rogers:

so terribly glad you both are not psychologists, what insensitive and ludicrous remarks. how dare you say that people with some kinds of mental disorders should off themselves and that they are not innocent. it is not a concious act to commit suicide and until you have witnessed or lived through it first hand you should not pretend to know what the victim is thinking or what they have been through. holier than thou ____. your choice of abyssmal words leaves much to be desired and are truly offensive.

Dont be so quick to blame the Sergeants. None of the other soldiers killed themselves. The deceased was apparently not fit for the miltary. When the say Army strong, it is not a Charles Atlas ad in an Archie comic book. You have to be strong to survive. I found a friend pointing his gun at his head. I slapped the boy silly. i took away his gun and reported him to Lieutenant. He was taken to mental hospital and discharged. If people are willing to go so far, let them go and be civilians. Training should be difficult and painful, to make better soldiers. Some just don't make the cut.

I have yet to see a fat overweight soldier in either war, except the generals , lol.If you have ever been in the military, you would know that after boot camp, and then being shipped out to a place that can average 120 degrees a day, it pretty much dissuades people from getting fat. This hweadline is way too vague, I,m guessing it was a psychological problem, since we werent given that info here.

While being under constant attack over there I seriously doubt ANYONE is sitting around eating doritos and sucking down mountain dews , lol. The military is a serious job, you are up at 4;30 - 5 am every day preparing for war. If they had a weak-minded person in there that threatened the safety of those around him, they certainly would have got on his butt. After all your life is in their hands and the hands of your squad, unit integrity is very very important when in hostile territory. 1 bad link and your all dead, no ifs and or buts.

Heres the whole article

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32509172/ns/us_news-military/

In his picture he shows signs of mental imbalance, may be charges he was unfit for duty to start with in my opinion. Still no room for hazing in todays military, many many people think they are cut out for active duty , only to realise it isnt for them or they are uncapable of performing the tasks at hand. If this b squad has the history the article implies of this kind of stuff , someone higher up has to be held accountable, yet, although the article alludes to that fact, they fail to mention previous bad conduct charges.

Don't prosecute these guys bust them down and send them to Afghanistan and send some of our guys back home in there place. Let these clowns play their games over there.

what qualifies as "excessive exercising"?

portulaca39

You don't have to be mentally ill to commit suicide... just selfish. I am sorry if that seems insensitive to you.. but it is the plain truth.

Mental illnesses are often just an excuse for bad personal choices.

Mr Rogers:

"Mental illnesses are often just an excuse for bad personal choices."

So that is exactly what happened in this case? Do you know exactly what was in the young mans heart when he threw himself away? Do you know everything in this case with exact certainty?

If your answer is yes then tell me Mr. Rogers. how does it feel to be a God.

Mirac,

You're not looking very hard, then. And this company (along with their entire brigade) wasn't up at 0430 every morning going to war. They were there on a training mission. We are no longer pulling patrols in the cities in Iraq. I am sure they had plenty of time each day to stop by the PX and purchase whatever snacks their hearts desired. Besides, other reports said this unit headed to Kuwait May 7, but they'd only been in Iraq for ten days. They had a LOT of time to sit around Kuwait.

I personally don't see how the kid's weight is even relevant, he was taunted by bullies to the point of taking his own life and it appears there is evidence to support that these bullies had done this before to other soldiers.

More proper would be the queston "how did these bullies get in and how did they achieve promotions." I'll tell you how because the recipients of their bullying where to intimidated and afraid to say anything and the bullies' superiors may have looked the otherway.

The military is a tough way of life especially if you "don't measure up" I feel terribly sad for that soldier's family and pray that the Army takes this seriously.

Where were the other soldiers in his plattoon? Why didn't they watch the kid? Long before a man will kill himself, he will burst into tears. Someone must have seen the kid crying. Why didn't they talk to him? Why didn't they report something to the Lieutenant? Or were they all afraid of some psycho NCO's? There is a chain of command. Ultimately there is an officer responsible. People weren't paying attention. Negligence, dereliction of duty, insubordination... these are all crimes punishable by court martial. The deceased was in basic, for what? six weeks? By then someone must have known his name. Soldiers are supposed to look out for each other. There is plenty of blame to go around.

mr rogers

mental illness is just an excuse for poor personal choices?

pretty sure no one needs anymore explanation on why this is the one of the stupidest things a person has ever said. dont apologize to me for being insensitive, its pretty apparent that dialogue is worthless here. per usual. get back to your recliner and your sports programs and leave brainpower to people who can handle it. i hope you are not an a: teacher b: priest c: psychologist, (im pretty sure we can rule that out) d: an officer in the military.

Very good point Ben. A sad and tragic situation all the way around. As someone who spent 20 years in the military, I always tried to do the best I could for any of my people that were having problems. If I could not help them, I tried to steer them toward people that could. The young man in question was obviously not afforded that choice. This shows a breakdown in the Army and it's chain of command. The four soldiers accused of hazing appear to have been way out of line, and if found guilty after a thorough investigation, deserve the harshest penalty the UCMJ will allow. If young Wilhelm did in fact try to make his concerns known up the chain of command then his immediate superior officers are just as guilty as the four accused and should be dealt with accordingly. It still amounts to shared guilt and responsibility.

Todd, they should focus on both. I come from a military family and both of my sons are in the military. There is no need whatsoever to be abusive. Notice, that they only picked on the ones they considered to be "weak." What does that tell you about them?

I do agree that this young man should have never been sent over there, but then again, according to my sons, the standards have been all but ignored by the folks in control.

test

Todd, he was probably on the weight control program. As long as a Soldier is "showing progress," they're flagged, but not discharged. APFT and HT/WT won't keep a Soldier from deploying. I agree that fitness and standards are important, OCONUS more than anywhere else. Ten days?

I'd be hesitant to say they abused him. I feel like there's something special about this case causing leadership to hammer these NCOs, because enforcing a standard and PT'ing the heck out of kid shouldn't be punishable. I think the Army is overreacting on this.

Bullies on the school yard become bullies in life. Low IQ, self esteem issues and all have to make others suffer for themselves to feel good. Leadership starts with compassion and not arrogance.

Todd, I respect what you do, but I strongly disagree with you.

I dont really care how and why he was even there. If youre a sane person, you know just when you are putting someone over the edge. Yes, its the army. Does that mean you have to degrade him and make him feel like sh*t, to the point he doesnt even want to live because he cant deal with it anymore. That is fu*ked up. I wonder why nobody wants to join the army...

Hard training with some good motivation is great. (Not mentally and physically destroying somebody because the are overweight or an "easy target")

Todd "I guess he was both physically soft and mentally weak if he killed himself over hazing."

Perhaps, but having the military place a loaded rifle in his hands and train him how to use it helped him along the way after he had been reduced to a piece of sh## by his fellow soldiers. His tormentors are just what the military is looking for, except they are supposed to use their venom to intimidate the enemy, not their brothers in arms. Very sad.

Todd, give me a break. If you are a NCO, then God help us. My husband is in the army, and has been put in charge of overweight soldiers at times. He works with them to regain their fitness. Why would some soldiers become overweight? Illness, medication, injury.

As to the young man being not strong enough mentally, well that is just bs. I have a feeling that the NCOs that were in charge of this man's unit probably have a rep for being jerks. Yes you should have a thick skin, but I work with training soldiers and my God some of them are so young. So if you, Todd, feel that the soldiers that did the hazing are mentally tough, I will show you immature, scared, confused, mean bullies.

My husband is a NCO and has been told many times by junior enlisted that they felt they could come to him for help and not be made to feel bad about themselves. The NCOs should have put a stop to the harrassment. Everyone failed that young man. And unlike the previous poster, Todd, I don't respect you. Your attitude is what is hurting the army by preventing those who need help not to. How are they any better than the terrorists?

Todd, There's nothing like making it look like the victim's fault. So if a soldier kills him or herself you consider them weak? If so, you have the same mentality as the soldiers that drove this kid to suicide. ALL people have their breaking point and given that this "kid" was only 19 he was far from having the time, experience, and maturity that older service members have. Instead of mentoring and trying to support a fellow soldier these F@#$ing idiots drove him to death. I hope the job market holds little promise for these clowns after they get out jail, which they deserve. ~G (ex-military)

Well said, Todd

mmhaq:

the NCOs that were in charge of this man's unit probably have a rep for being jerks.

The article says that this young man wasn't the only victim of this treatmeant...

Todd, thank you for your service to our country, but I really disagree with your statement. Not everyone is built mentally tough no matter how much you try to act it. There are vulnerable points in you that can lead to suicide (I was there once...) and if the harassment led to this 19-year old soldier committing suicide, then I have to say they were really abusive to him.

R.I.P. Private Wilhelm.

Peter Jacobs,

I agree with you. I've often wondered where do bullies go when they grow up? Well, now I know where some of them went anyway. the only way to make bullies stop is to make their lives hell when they do bully somebody. Most of the time bullies lack empathy and will not stop until they are made to. So, more power to the powers that be for prosecuting these guys, I hope they throw the book at them.

Todd -- Focus on the real issue please....bullies making others' lives a living nightmare. I say make examples of the 4 that ruled w/hazing and any others that come along after them. Isn't it enough to have to face enemy fire?

Jery he went to serve , that makes him a man, he deserved better than that! he might have turned out to be a great soldier from what I understand it is a voluntary enlistment.

As a 16 year Veteran of the United States Marine Corps, I know that I will NOT have an overweight, out of shape Marine next to me in combat. Have any of you thought of that?! I am not saying that what the NCO's did was right...nor am I saying that it was wrong...BECAUSE I WASN'T THERE! I am not here to speculate as to what, where, why and how...I am here to tell you some facts:

1.  If you are not nor were ever in the US Military, please do not comment on what you think they did or didn't do or what you have seen on TV or the movies. I mean no offense but if you have never served, don't pretend to know.

2.   They ARE the US Army and it IS their job to get that soldier into or back into shape if he is going to be in a war zone and expected to protect his fellow soldiers.

3.  The last time I knew the United States Military was a Voluntary Military! He joined with the full knowledge that he most likely will be sent overseas to a combat zone. Therefore, STAY IN SHAPE SO YOU CAN DEFEND YOUR FELLOW SOLDIERS! Also, being that he volunteered, he knew what was expected of him regardless of his age...therefore if he can't take the heat...

4.  Those of you that say his NCO's were being mean and nasty to him and they went too far and that they shouldn't have...he is in a war zone people. Please, close your eyes and TRY to imagine what it would have been like for him to be captured. If he was willing to take his own life because he was hazed by his NCO's, what do you think he would have done with the information he had on such things as base logistics, where the armory is, where the chow hall is, how many soldiers are on the base...etc. That would have meant more, many more lives would have been lost. Then you all would have been saying that the NCO's didnt do their jobs. Fact is most of oyu here have no idea what the NCO's jobs actually are...do you? You see most of you dont think that way but we in the military HAVE TO...OUR LIVES DEPEND ON IT.

I feel just as bad if not worse than those of you that are not / were not in the military. I just lost one of my fellow warriors. And in NO WAY am I condoning what the NCO's did or did not do to or for this soldier. However, please get all the facts before you judge someone for doing something you know nothing about.

Thanks,

SEMPER FI

SSGT

USMC

Amen Brother!

As an ex-Army NCO I am with you!

Todd,

As a former Marine Sgt I can say that once you are trusted with that rank you should be mature enough to use it. As far as your statements are concerned I can see you are not. A Sgt is responsible for all of his men.

Military requirements are responsible for the fitness of the troops not a few rogue good ole boys.

MilitaryManMC:

I totally agree with you brother. I am a 7 yr vet of the US ARMY and a fellow NCO and I agree that anyone WITHOUT military experience really needs to stay shut in this case.

This is a totally VOLUNTARY military and I have become quite disgusted on how low the standards have become for fitness and MORE IMPORTANTLY - STRESS TOLERANCE.

This suidice soldier was unfit to begin with and should have been washed out in BOOT CAMP!!! The government is so desparate for troops that they are allowing weak minded individuals to pass through, which becomes a COMPLETE detriment and liability to their brothers, once they are in combat!!! If a soldier CANNOT take getting yelled at or hazed a little, (ESPECIALLY AFTER BOOT), then how in the HELL do you think they can handle combat?????

I rather have a smaller more effective strong military than a guy who could not take 10 friggin days in field WITHOUT COMBAT!!!

What they did is not excusable, but where was everyone else during this? They picked on the weakest link to make him stronger (wrong tack with the weak minded), and took it too far, but the guy was taught how to take things ABOVE THEM, to get this resolved without offing himself!!

But better himself than to lose faith while in combat and get all his squad or platoon wasted!!!

Have you considered the possibility that this soldier may have commited suicide in part because he was physically exhausted/potentially in blood sugar crisis...if this kid was truly so afraid of the hazing he was avoiding public places as the article states, he may have avoided the mess hall as well.

I am an army wife and I understand the need to encourage fitness and make sure that soldiers are fit to do their duty, but honestly if you as an NCO have someone dumped into your unit who is out of shape does it make sense to push them so hard, so fast that they injure themselves or take their own lives? How does EITHER outcome aid your manpower or combat readiness? These NCOs failed to temper justice with mercy and as a result they failed not just the soldier, but their unit, and themselves...

4persephone - Most of my point was that we DO NOT know how hard he was pushed or badly he was treated. Unfortunately the NCO's are being hung in this chat room today...fortunately this IS NOT our Justice System.

If I do in fact have a Marine "dumped" in my Unit that is out of shape, I will push them as hard as i feel is necessary to make them understand thay they are a risk not only to themselves, but to the rest of their Unit. If they cry, break down, hide from me because I have been pushing them too hard, then in some respects I am doing a good job.

IF...I said IF...these NCO's are guilty of what they are accused of them may God have mercy on them, cause they should all be put in front of a firing squad and given their last rites. However, we also have to look at the fact that the soldier in question might have been weak, didn't want to be there, thought that all he signed up for was a free education, or was screwing up everything he did, etc. Bottom line is...WE DO NOT HAVE ALL THE FACTS...and I refuse to speculate on weather this is their fault, his fault or both parties at fault.

4persephone, You wrote..."These NCOs failed to temper justice with mercy and as a result they failed not just the soldier, but their unit, and themselves..." This is a FALSE STATEMENT AS YOU DO NOT KNOW THE SPECIFICS IN THIS CASE!

Todd you are among the above mentioned a real sicko.

Throw the book at all of them! They should get stripped of anything they have with the Millitary and be treated just like any other criminal. They are a SHAME to the United States of America with their careless actions and hateful deeds.

There are WAY too may people who pick on others just because they think it's fun. Once full punishment is brought back into these and other crimes, there won't be so many of them.

Just remember this. That was someone's child. It could have been yours.

As a 16 year Veteran of the United States Marine Corps, I know that I will NOT have an overweight, out of shape Marine next to me in combat. Have any of you thought of that?! I am not saying that what the NCO's did was right...nor am I saying that it was wrong...BECAUSE I WASN'T THERE! I am not here to speculate as to what, where, why and how...I am here to tell you some facts:

1. If you are not nor were ever in the US Military, please do not comment on what you think they did or didn't do or what you have seen on TV or the movies. I mean no offense but if you have never served, don't pretend to know.

2. They ARE the US Army and it IS their job to get that soldier into or back into shape if he is going to be in a war zone and expected to protect his fellow soldiers.

3. The last time I knew the United States Military was a Voluntary Military! He joined with the full knowledge that he most likely will be sent overseas to a combat zone. Therefore, STAY IN SHAPE SO YOU CAN DEFEND YOUR FELLOW SOLDIERS! Also, being that he volunteered, he knew what was expected of him regardless of his age...therefore if he can't take the heat...

4. Those of you that say his NCO's were being mean and nasty to him and they went too far and that they shouldn't have...he is in a war zone people. Please, close your eyes and TRY to imagine what it would have been like for him to be captured. If he was willing to take his own life because he was hazed by his NCO's, what do you think he would have done with the information he had on such things as base logistics, where the armory is, where the chow hall is, how many soldiers are on the base...etc. That would have meant more, many more lives would have been lost. Then you all would have been saying that the NCO's didnt do their jobs. Fact is most of oyu here have no idea what the NCO's jobs actually are...do you? You see most of you dont think that way but we in the military HAVE TO...OUR LIVES DEPEND ON IT.

I feel just as bad if not worse than those of you that are not / were not in the military. I just lost one of my fellow warriors. And in NO WAY am I condoning what the NCO's did or did not do to or for this soldier. However, please get all the facts before you judge someone for doing something you know nothing about.

Thanks,

I got the facts I had 6 brother all just like you freaking jar heads yeah they kicked my ass when I was young but the day came each and every one of them got the super bad asses kicked.

You know those self righteous bastards don't speak to me any more. Guess its ok to beat on the weak but when you find your not as bad or as knowledgeable as you think well then. we don't like that

MilitaryManMC,

First of all Semper Fi.

If it is your objective to get the troops in shape for combat then yes you should push almost to the point of breaking. The way this article reads is that was not these soldiers job. By the time an individual reaches a conflict zone the physical and mental conditioning is over. They now are a part of the unit. If this young man was deemed unfit then it would be the responsibility of the senior NCOs to report a possible problem to the appropriate Chain-of-Command. It is the responsibility of the Army in this case to make sure individuals in combat zones are ready.

It is never the responsibility, nor is authority ever given, for individuals to act on their own to harrass or "haze" an individual. For SGTs to be doing this to a private is even more of a problem.

I have two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star and was very much in the action. If at anytime I or any others felt an individual was neither physically or mentallity able to functioned in the capacity they were assigned it was reported.

You and I both know this is the proper procedure to be followed. Some of you have mentioned and I have seen it first hand the importance of having the men ready to hold up their assignment. Through proper procedures most of this can be eliminated. Under no circumstances should a situation like this have occurred if the accounts in the article are correct.

Man back off on Todd. Maybe his words seemed harsh but earlier I said that better mental screening may have weeded this boy out as well as pick up the violent tendencies of the other soldiers.. Yes your trained to kill but discipline is essential too.

What definition of overweight are they and you using? A little pudgy doesn't equal unfit. You have no idea about this soldiers fitness. And you sound like a bully.

Todd sounds a little fishy. I am not credible, of course, because I am only a member of a family of multi-generation miltary, spending 19 years witnessing and listening first had to their experiences until my dad retired. Todd insults and makes unprovable statements. From my expierence, members of elite groups in the military don't talk or brag about it. He just sounds a little off to be true.

KAT: Good for you and your posts. My best wishes to you and your sons.

Todd, I'm sorry to tell you this but your post above is perfect example of passing the buck! As an NCO you are directly responsible for the well being of your troops. We don't know the whole story about this article. For all we know the young man in question could have been responding to a weight control program and losing weight. To arbitrarily state that he was physically weak and mentally soft is a cop out! You don't know and neither do I. You are not saying you agree with hazing? Wrong answer! As a responsible NCO, you should definitely be totally against it and do the utmost to insure that it does not happen period! Why hammer the NCO's who did the hazing? Because they did it that's why! Are you saying these four NCO's should not be held accountable for their actions? Sounds to me like you may need to review the core beliefs of the Army and NCO's.

Pure speculation. No basis in fact. You son must have a master degree in psycho analysis!!!

This has to be the most ignorant, stupid comment I have ever seen.

Hmmm, were these soldiers in leather and using ball gags at the time?

Well, here in San Diego, an openly gay soldier was murdered - which is more likely to happen than the other way around. In fact, I can think of reading NO report of marauding gay soldiers attacking straights.

Now, San Diego also had a merry band of soldiers attack, torture, and kill their drill instructor - and his wife, at their residence. What is going on in the military??

I concur with rachel!

Todd-651965 wrote:

"With that said, I'm going to leave my work and go home to my wife now."

There you go again Todd. Make sure we all know you have a wife. Wink,wink.

What's her name? Bruno!

yep, they're queers alright. never fails.

Yes, sexual repression can lead to violent behavior. Ask any psychologist, if you don't believe it. Of course, there are other triggers for violence towards a weaker person, it doesn't have to be secret homosexual orientation. But mostly the attacker is trying to hide his true feelings (because he cannot handle his true feelings, whatever they are) by humiliating others.

Well, Bernie, actually my one son is still in Afghan, the other who is back and 50% disabled, is a chemistry major. You don't have to be a psych major to know when someone is over compensating for something.

Gee bernie/rachel, its not news to hear that someone might be overcompensating. It happens with all kinds of losers. No one need apologize for being gay, but some macho gays have a history of this kind of behavior. Just like the reasons behind why some men beat up women, abuse their kids or harass anyone weaker then them. So why don't you both do a little reading before posting. hmmmmm

As I said, I come from a military family. My husband is retired military. I've seen this type of thing with my own eyes. When my sons speak of this kind of thing still going, it doesn't surprise anyone who knows.

Why don't you go check it out for yourself?

I am currently in the military. I am in an elite field in the military. I use physical training as a learning tool in my job. Trust me, I'm not a "closet homosexual". I have an issue with your statement:

"The men who were more open and didn't try to hide their sexuality were good soldiers and didn't have the need to abuse others"

Are you implying that there are two types of soldiers? The closet homosexuals who abuse soldiers and the ones who are open about their sexuality and don't abuse other soldiers.

Your son seems to know alot about closet homosexuals in the military...

I find your insinuation offensive and an insult to ALL soldiers. Perhaps if you had actually served instead of being a family member, you'd have chosen better words.

Your comments malign her son as well. You seem awfully sensative on the subject.

I did some time in the military and I agree with Kat's son's assessment. The people who acted macho were, in fact, homos. The machoism they displayed came out of the insecurity of being a homo. Perhaps they never came to terms with themselves or they were trying to hide it. If you were sensitive enough, you could sense it.

I served with the 327th at Ft Campbell as a combat medic, and I can assure anyone here that yes, there are indeed abusive and homophobic/closeted soldiers within the ranks who indeed get their "kicks" by singling out people for abuse based on whatever stigma they choose, simply because they have gotten away with it for a long time. There is no way to dispute this, as I've witnessed it with my own eyes. I am sorry to agree with Kat's statement, but it does happen, and all too often, the senior members of our military overlook it as "necessity" to harden soldier's resolve and egos. Unfortunately, this has likely been the case for centuries. It is sad that it detracts from honest, hard-working soldiers who earn and deserve respect, but there are those who are only there to draw a paycheck and feel a "need" to abuse others.

I'm glad to know that homosexuals are responsible for all the bullying and hazing in the military. Whew! And here I thought we had a complex problem with many layers of social/political complications. Thank God it's just faggots!

Lois, I was thinking the same thing!

"Todd-651965" is awfully sensitive on the subject. Perhaps it hit a little too close to home and struck a nerve. Straight guys who are comfortable with who they are and their own sexuality don't need to proclaim: "Trust me, I'm not a "closet homosexual" as Todd-651965 did. Hmmm...

I think this a just not a military thing I have seen this kind of actions in many young men I am a highschool coach I don't put up this kind of bullyness 99% of the time this is the actions of insecure young men.

The fact is that these aZZholes who haze and abuse what they consider "weaker" soldiers under the guise of a military uniform are complete pansies anyway. The same idiots who would badger and abuse kids in school for the same reason. I even remember these punks doing that to a down syndrome boy at our high school until they got their aZZes whipped thoroughly.

I dont know about the closet "homo" theory but they defintely have a penis inferiority complex.

BLS said "The people who acted macho were, in fact, homos. The machoism they displayed came out of the insecurity of being a homo." Well, that's what you get with a don't ask, don't tell policy. You force them to have something to prove. Typically, it is the homosexual who will most likely be beaten up and abused by the homophobes in the crowd.

Well if I was a homosexual, I'd be sure to be completely out about it. I am very secure in who I am, what I've done, and my own abilities to continue to protect your lazy fat butts in a world that would love to see you dead and gone. That said, I base my soldier judgements on performance. They are either meeting the standard or they are not. If they are close to meeting the standards, I will work with them to help them achieve the standards. If they are far from meeting the standards, I get rid of them. Letting soldiers with issues down range in the first place is just asking for trouble.

You can go on attacking soldiers about their sexuality, but that is just smoke on the subject of the sad state of the civilian sector who is coming into the military now days. I think I saw an article that put the obesity rate in the US around 50%. WTF is that all about? I see soldiers in the Army getting bigger around the middle too. It's disgusting. What's worse is when I have to take mission essential equipment from the out of shape soldiers because they aren't strong enough to carry their share and give it to the already over burdened in-shape soldiers. That is the issue that needs discussing. But no, all you want to talk about is the feelings and emotional well being of already weak individuals who VOLUNTEERED to kill people in horrible ways in the name of God and Country. What do you think is going to happen? I really suggest that all of you go to Iraq and Afganistan yourselves and see how things really are. Perhaps then you could provide some sort of opinion based on the cruel hard facts instead of your "feel good, let's all hug" experiences.

With that said, I'm going to leave my work and go home to my wife now. It's just a matter of time before I deploy again, so I'd like to spend some quality time with her before I go. So please feel free to talk about me behind my back, hiding behind your keyboard. I'm here at Fort Benning if you'd like to chat face to face.

You guys are so stupid, guys who act extra macho do it because they have small "packages"!

So are you saying it was ok to abuse this boy because he was overweight????

Oh Todd, I should have read more of your answers before I replied to an earlier one. I now have a better "feel" for you. Wow. Umm, by the way I do know some soldiers in the elite forces of the military, and funny they NEVER EVER tell anyone about it. OPSEC you see.

Todd - Dude,

You are in serious need of psychological counseling! But of course you're too f'd up to see that! Just plain sad!

Hey Todd you have run up on another batch of computer commandos, I undrstand what you are saying and agree

mmhaq- I said elite field, not forces. Learn to read.

Jake, Duh...of course I need counseling! We all do.

Toni- it's never OK or abuse. Period

Carrie- How did you know I have a small package? Have we hooked up? I can't remember because my memory isn't that good anymore and I haven't received my counseling yet.

I do see Soldiers getting "smoked" for being overweight, for enforcing minor infractions, etc., and it does occasionally cross the line into abuse, but very rarely and 99% of the NCOs I know and work with know when to recognize it and when to stop it, unfortunately some don't. There are many reasons why, but to state they are closet homosexuals clearly shows your biased and slanted view of the Army. These guys try their best under extreme circumstances. Are there people who should not be NCOs or Officers, absolutely, but the same holds true in any position where you have near absolute authority over people.

Yes, you have to be in shape, especially in combat. I come from a Light Infantry background, 20 years active duty now, and I am well educated (grad level education). I chose my profession because I wanted to, not because I had to. I can tell you that yes, we have had many mental health issues from our lower ranking and and newer Soldiers, and yes, sometimes by the more senior guys. It is difficult to screen people for mental health issues during the peace time side of the training we do, and we do try to refer them to the proper health care professionals when we see an issue. Unfortunately, the suicides that are successful usually do not show the outward signs we can see. I will tell you that yes, we do have some bad apples, we have the same issues as the society we come from and serve, but our actual crime numbers are far smaller than the general society.

Instead of all the gay comments and the he got what he deserved comments, let's focus on the fact that the Army and America lost a Soldier, that a family and friends have been devastated. That is reality. It is unfortunate many of you cannot see that. There will be an investigation, and if the NCOs and Soldiers are found guilty of wrongdoing, they will be punished.

Todd, my sons (and my husband - ex) have their opinions and are free to express them. I did not raise my sons to be homophobic. They have sympathy for all human beings. This type of thing goes on in the military and you know it. Like someone said, the military is reflective of our society.

Your insinuation that my son knows a little too much about the homosexual thing was a strange remark. I'll let you and your wife deal with how sensitive you are about that. However, to get back on the subject, my son actually came to the rescue of one the so-called "weaker" ones during the time he was based in Ft. Campbell, KY. No one would challenge either of my sons because they're both 6'6" tall, weigh 250-275lbs, and one wears a size 16 shoe and the other 16-1/2. While I was raising these kids, their size intimidated everyone, so we were very hard on them because we didn't want them to be bullies and take advantage of smaller kids. My son had the nickname in school of "gentle giant." So, to witness others being bullied and abused just "because" really bothered both of them. It never happened while they were around.

Now, as far as your comments about who can talk and who can't, that's nonsense. As I said, my son did two tours of Iraq (now, 50% disabled), and my other son is still in Afghan. But even if they weren't, people can still express their opnion, even if we don't like it. After all, isn't that what this war is all about... protecting our freedoms? Or, is it?

Kat - well said! With great power comes a great responsibility. You must be very proud of your sons! They don't abuse their physical powers, but instead use them to protect the week ones. What a fine example!!

Congrats on raising two fine boys, Kat.

I have one question, though it might sound off topic.
You said,

After all, isn't that what this war is all about... protecting our freedoms?

Then shouldn't we be fighting in Washington, since THAT seems to be where our freedoms are coming into question? LOL

I'm just sayin'.....

Todd, I thank you for what you do for our country. However, you really do seem very brainwashed and heartless about OUR OWN people. I guess that is really what war does to you guys. Its sad...

Todd is the exception, not the norm. I have spent over two years of my life in Iraq. Most adapt to the conditions and rigors of combat, unfortunately some do not.

sman: nice guy response to a family who has given to your country. You sound like a kind of creep.

I should also add that people are looking at you Todd and seeing a representative of the Army, so you should act accordingly...be a professional and do not forget our values. Some of your comments are out of line and do not in any way represent the position the Army has on this subject.

99% of the Army acts professionally under the most extreme conditions. Whether you agree with the current operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, do not project hatred on the Soldiers. They have done much over there and will continue to until these missions are over. No other Army in the world could deploy world wide on multiple fronts and accomplish all that we have done, America should be proud of their Army.

My condolences to the family of Pvt. Keiffer P. Wilhelm.

ajlibrant, I know this story is disturbing, but don't paint all of our soliders with the same brush. Most of them are good and honrable men and have to deal with things that you and I couldn't even imagine. These type of guys, however, are everywhere... not just the military. The folks in charge know that this type of thing goes on, and they should have taken that into consideration before sending him over there.

ajlibrant...I knew that a nutcase like you would say something stupid.....The military is a mirror of our society...did anyone expect that it wouldnt be??? The soldiers that did the bad stuff at Abu Graib were similar. The army doesnt change everyone into the ideal person and a percentage of them are going to do the wrong thing. It is stupid to demonize all military,,,,,and you are stupid. Are you next going to blame Bush??

You sound pretty cynical and prone to stereotyping......

So, tell us, how many people who know you well look up to you as one of their heroes, hmmm? How many people in your family say only good things about you when you are not around, hmmm? How many selfless and courageous things have you done this year that people who know you would cheer about and salute, hmmm? Try being somebody people admire.... for a change. You may find that you feel better about yourself, not to mention the people that have to listen to you.

MAYBE if the news media printed stories about the good our soldiers do instead of all the negative, we would have both sides of the story. You never hear about all the good things are soldiers are doing to defend our freedom. They are heroes

ajlibrant

Get out!! Go live in some other country you useless waste of space!

And you are welcome for your Freedom of speech. you filthy hack.

J.A.

You're way off if you think the Army mirrors society.  When there was a draft the military overall mirrored society but since the mid 70's with the all volunteer force and recently with 2 wars going on- the "average" guy falls lower and lower into the bottom rung of society. These guys accused sound to me like police washouts or future correctional officers.  I hope they all get the max. That will keep them from tormenting anyone but other inmates for a while.

ajibrant....kiss my ass...jerk

My deepest sympathy for the family and friends of Pvt.Kieffer P. Wilhelm

hey ajibrant...this link is for you and the way I feel about the men and women serving in our Armed Services......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSfFYxSdKdo

Ahem, all aijbrant said was "another great story about our "heroes" in Iraq." Good lord, talk about over reacting. He didn't say all folks in the military are bad; I think he was referring to the rather fawning nature that seems to say that any and all who serve in the military is a hero...when we know that isn't necessarily true. Though, I would agree that most are.

Clam down folks...really. Your written reactions are akin the showing up with guns at health care rallies. Oh wait....

Who do you think men and women join the military? I have to college graduate sons, now married, that I made sure would never have to consider military service to get ahead in this world.

I appreciate and respect what these men and women in the military service are doing, but I would never recommend my family(men or women) to volunteer for the service. I served during the Vietnam war, but I was drafted. I was working to go to college when I was called. I would have never considered the military as a steping stone to move up. Most of the men and women in the military are there to use it as a way move up. Only a small number (lifers) are career military. This young man did not deserve to be treated the way he was treated. In Vietnam, bullies, were taken care of during the heat of a battle.

Elitist-paroso

Not everyone fits in your elitist fantasy-world. too bad. College doesn't teach everything as someone who has gone to College and served in the Army I know both were valuable experiences and I would not be the man I am today otherwise. The fact is somebody has to support the American Imperial system of bringing Democracy to people who could care less.

Truly how can you ask anything of a society if at some point your not willing to serve and maybe die for it. Simply to show you are worthy to be a true citizen.

That said I worry every time I see this New-Army and want to P/U a Koran whenever I see one of these kaki-pajama and tennis-shoe wearing pansies we have for Soldiers these days.. it scares me to death. to think of them defending a milk carton nonetheless this country.

In conclusion he committed suicide over some hazing! probably the best thing he ever did for his Country, he won't breed anymore rabbits hurrah!

Inish-Allah :(

Wow, yeah send back the overage, overweight, and mentally challenged people. Hmm, while we're at it, we should make sure they don't exist here also (as citizens), let's deport them all, hmm, maybe back to Iraq or Afghanistan as citizens. That should bring the population of the USA from about 330 million to about oh what 3 million?

The Bush administration treated the military exactly as what it is, a tool for the rich and powerful to get more rich and more powerful.

Recruiting standards have been lowered, because most people in our country will not volunteer for what they know is several tour of duty in a war zone. I do not blame them one bit. Even the criminals would not consider volunteering to go into a war zone.

The sad thing about this is that the military brass can not even protect those that volunteer from the animals in the service.

Hey, if they treated American soldiers this way, just imagine how they treat Iraqii citizens???

heaveto, kinda like the government

OBAMA OUTRIGHT LIES, NOT JUST BEARS FALSE WITNESS

An energy analyst says he cannot understand why the Obama administration is borrowing money to lend money to Brazil so it can conduct oil drilling off its eastern coast, yet will not support oil drilling in American waters.

The Wall Street Journal reports that the Obama administration has agreed to lend $2 billion to Brazil's state-owned oil company, Petrobras, to finance oil exploration off the country's coast near Rio de Janeiro. Bloomberg.com is reporting that George Soros, a major contributor to the Democratic Party, is also a major investor in the Brazilian oil company.

David Kreutzer is senior policy analyst in energy economics and climate change at The Heritage Foundation. He questions why the United States is not drilling in its own deep-water oil fields.

OBAMA IS DETERMINED TO DESTROY AMERICA. WAKE UP AMERICA

Heaveto, people that behave this way in society are emotionally immature at best.

luvenia - good point made - these are the types of people who kick and torture small animals. some people just are plain, stinking evil. then, when you get a ringleader and a couple of followers - you have a gang of evildoers egging each other on.

AMERICA is going down the tube`s right before our EYES.

Glenn, I agree completely. If there were abuse issues, he should have taken it higher and addressed it that way. War is not the time you want someone who can't endure stress by your side. Everyone needs to suck it up in that situation.

oh yeah you really feel for him....but call him "fat and weak" in the same breath....

hmm.....the UCMJ seems to have different conclusions than you. What a mess the Army has become. Anywho...

People who don't meet Physical standards, psychological standards, people who are openly white supremacists, gang members, you name it are being let in. They are pushing the self destruct button without realizing it.

The story said these bullies have prior complaints against them!

Jebus, survival of the fittest? Are you freaking serious? All these soldiers getting their asses shot off are weak?

Glenn

"The military is not like civilian life, "

You're right about that- so I did my 20 and got the hell out. But they didn't beat me down into becoming one of the sheep republicans.

is it really that easy???while there are certain conditions that need to be sucked up, do you think the superior officers would have done anymore than probally put him in even a more comprimising situation???i'm just asking...

A guy in a combat unit that can't hold up his end, will get a lot of people killed.

In the Corps he would have been in a Special Training platoon, where the DI,s scarried batons

I'm not saying it's easy to "suck it up." I'm sure he was under stress. I have personal experience with not meeting the standard (PT, not Weight, but all the same), and it's embarassing. It's humiliating, and worse, you KNOW you're not holding up your end of the bargain. That said, I'm in a support battalion, and support unit. Totally different mission for me. This kid enlisted--it's been pointed out it's an all-volunteer military, so caveat emptor, folks--into a Cavalry unit. While not one of our Special Operations units, Cav boys don't joke. Think before you leap. And if you're being abused, go see the medics. Go talk to the Chaplain, and go talk to a psychological counselor. Report the jerks to their leaders, the 1SG, the CO... whomever. But instead of doing the right thing, he chickened out. That's where my doubts come in about how awful these NCOs really were.

It may not be "war" any longer, but a truckload of folks were killed by bombs in Baghdad the other day. This is not the time to be tucking into a donut and crying in the bathroom because your leaders are mean to you. It would be the time to act like a grownup and be part of the team.

I feel for the kid, but I honestly feel these NCOs are being treated too harshly. We'll all see where the investigation leads, though.

Sorry but your argument does not hold water. We are not talking about the military here we are talking about unit cohesion. Hazing is NOT acceptable in this type of environment as it breaks unit cohesion and morale. It is against code or they would not be facing charges right now. No ifs, ands or buts.

Follow Me can not be interpreted as @!$%# on me. If Wilhelm was incapable of keeping up, then he should have been discharged, not sacrificed. The perpetrators are accused of doing this to other soldiers as well. What? Are we to surmise that they should continue to just discharge the overweight soldiers and that will take care of the problem? With whom should it stop then? Will we only then have a force who can not follow the code? Is that what the goal of recruitment is? Soldiers who follow orders at their own whims?

This is a clear case of insubordination on the part of the commanders and soldiers.

again "tucking into a donut" and "crying in the bathroom" don't sound like words of sympathy or "feeling for the kid"....or i guess it just depends on what exactly you are feeling.

The Army has focused on suicides. They just came up with some GREAT training to let Soldiers know they have options. Why didn't he use those options available? I guarantee he got the training, because we ALL had to take it. A medic posted earlier he'd seen all sorts of abuse during his service. No medic or doctor reported the abuse to the Chain of Command?

The NCOs didn't kill this Soldier. The Soldier killed himself. My view isn't that this isn't tragic. It's terrible that the Soldier thought this was his only option. Regardless of bullying, I promise that suicide is not the only option in the Army, and the Army lets you know that these days. My point is that it's my view that the NCOs are getting a raw deal.

There's been all this talk of unit cohesion and having each other's backs. Yes, the NCOs should have acted responsibly. We haven't seen the evidence against them. But why shouldn't the PVT have had his fellow Soldiers' backs? He gave up and left his team one short. He didn't adhere to fitness standards, and that made his team weaker. I'm just saying he bears some responsibility in his own choices. Suicide IS a choice.

I do feel bad for the Soldier and I feel very sorry that his family lost him. However, my points on the discussion were more about the article holistically than whether or not I feel more sorry for the boy or the NCOs.

Glenn, do you know what happens to guys in the military that "snitch" on other guys? Get real. No one speaks up about things like this.

And, by the way... both of my military sons are Democrats, so stop with the stupid political comments.

Glenn, I served. I was not a career military person(a lifer), if that is what you call serving. I had better things to do with my life. Could you explain yourself please. Your comment does not make any sense. Today, you do not have a rush of individuals to serve, do you. What the heck does being in the military have to do with political party. You are really spaced out or are you just a smart ass.

sarah-545262 there are some civilians who can be just as "disciplined" as military folk. i am starting to think the people who look down on the military may have a point, you all are a bunch of people who band together in cliques to make yourselves feel better and when one person does not work out quite simply to be cohesive to the "unit" you make his life a living hell to make yourselves feel superior. i honestly did not think this way until lately.

you know absolutely nothing about mental illness and make a mockery of human life, its really sad to know these are the kind of people in the military. if you would read anything besides your gov issued newsletter you would know that the army has not focused on this aspect of health, and therefore have left a lot of people out in the cold who need help; it really has been overlooked by your employer, you should just admit it.

Maybe the way the charge reads? All but one were Non-Commissioned officers... could be what the reporter meant.

Agreed!

Um...Todd,

Maybe EVERYONE else did read a different article than you because the article I read said the multiple charges are as follows:

cruelty and maltreatment,making a false statement(s),reckless endangerment,impeding an investigation,cruelty and maltreatment.

Why am I not surprised you would try to defend these charges!

Hey Jake,

I said being accused of, not charged with. All those charges are being brought because they are accused of "Excessive Physical Fitness". The charges are the normal ones the military brings against any senior soldier that harasses a junior and then tries to lie or cover it up. Learn the UCMJ and then come back and talk.

Todd.... Are you related to these guys or something... or maybe you have done the same thing to your fellow soldiers and are feeling guilty. How can you defend these guys who found it entertaining to do this to this boy... and it also stated in the article that there are others who have come forward with the same complaints. Just because someone decides to go into the military does not make them great guys... some are still a... holes who enjoy making others feel bad only to make themselves feel important. God Bless the day when all humans want Peace again and not violence and killing.

Occasionally smoking someone doesn't drive him to suicide. Whatever these guys were doing, you can be sure it was excessive.

No Todd,

You contradicted yourself within one paragraph, you're brilliant! LOL  If they were only accused of "Excessive Physical Fitness" they would not be charged with making  false statements and impeding an investigation, genius.

Dude, I agree with an earlier comment about you. You're everything that's wrong with the military.

I agree with you, old todd must be related. There are many young men that can't cut it in the military. Whether in basic or boot camp or later deployed to a permanent duty station. I have witnessed extreme harsh harassment by non-coms and I can tell you there is a breaking point for certain individuals. These guys deserve the book thrown at them if these charges prevail.

First rule in the mititary

Deny, deny, deny.

Todd, do you know what soldiers would do to an officer or NCO that was abusive to his troops. During a fight with the enemy, friendly fire would take care of this problem. I heard this from many soldiers that served in the jungles of Vietnam. When a soldier goes into a combat area, he is no longer in training. Maybe the military has changed since I served. If a soldier is not ready to serve in a combat area he should never been deployed there. He was not in basic training or advance individual training either.

this @!$%# is messed up. i agree with you totally. i've had that same situation. these guys were doing their jobs by trying to get the soldier into army regs. and it is sad that the army will hang these guys for a soldier not being able to handle 10 days in Iraq. he was gonna kill himself anyways most likely. there isn't even enough time in iraq to have smoke sessions. and if they were doing it, it's because their leadership told them to get that soldier into shape. that has to be the issue. a poor soldier reflects poor leadership by the army standards so these soldiers obviously were being harrassed to get this soldier into shape. it's a shame.