If and when the strike comes at Iran, It clearly should be from Israel. We shall back it up if need be. I am sorry John I see no turning of our backs on Israel in this meeting. Israel is our check and balance in the middle east

just in case I am a moderate Conservative

With Iran determined to produce a bomb, it's only a matter of time before Israel strikes their nuclear facilities. They have already attacked Iraq and Syria over this issue, so don't be surprised when it happens.

What should be interesting is Obama's reaction.

Who is it that they have to ask? no one, its their country, not to mention the plants are already there!, are we all so confident that iran hasn't already purchased nukes from another country that already has them, we cant get inside the new plant, how can anyone say nope they have no nukes what so ever. we cant, were are all you bush bashers when its your boy provoking two countrys with a stick, and one of them is fully nuclear with trails of assistance to the other, at least bush picked wars we could win, and for all those who want to bitch about afganistan well let the military play war like they're suppose to and we could have already won, there are no innocent in war just enemies and allies and casualties, if the enemy hides with the allies, then the question should be are they truly our allies or are they harboring the enemy. if isreal attacks we are certain to see the destruction of the jewish state(they're surrounded by enemies, its just a matter of time before one steps forward and the others follow)

If we keep messing with Iran, they just might close the Straights of Hormuz. If that happens, the flow of crude oil to the US will grind down to a trickle. Then the price of crude oil will skyrocket and you will see a gallon of gasoline going to $ 5.00 per gallon. If we try to intercede for Iran closing the Straight of Hormuz, think about WW III, because Russia and China favors Iran.

Iran has threatened to close the straights and I wouldn't put it pass them to just do so.

Obama and his ilk had better rethink their strategy when dealing with Iran. Even though Iran is not favorable to the US, it is still an indepentant nation as is North Korea.

It's not the US's job to police the world, and the United Nations is a joke.

I just don't get it..the USA and Russia limit their nuclear capabilities..Israel has Nuclear capabilities, as for the stockpile, that remains to be seen and known..then Iran and the M/E, is NOT ALLOWED to have any nuclear facilities, of any kind ??..even if it's for utility purposes ??..with this thinking, we'll never have PEACE with the Middle East..where is the Balance here ??..provocation, anger and hate is brought on when abuse is evident..so what do we do now, eradicate them.. because their only way to get even with us, is to jack up their Oil Prices...for the love of money/ power, OIL and drugs and sex..MAN HAS LOST HIS MIND, WORLD WIDE....

I'm an old intelligence analyst, so I tend to see things that way, so here's a scenario for you:

1) Gates threaten "harsher" sanctions if Iran doesn't back away from its nuclear program.

2) Iran's government is shaky right now, though it's a dispute beween extreme right and racidal right factions. The one thing that unifies them is dislike of the U.S. and Israeli governments and nationalistic pride.

3) The current radical right government refuses to back down fearing that any show of weakness would embolden the opposition extreme rightists.

4) Harsher sanctions are indeed imposed. This puts the current Iranian in even a worse position. If they do nothing it will be perceived within Iran as caving in. So they conduct some provocative act --- possibly capturing or sinking a tanker in the Straits or Hormuz or attacking a smaller U.S. or coalition warship with anti-ship missiles. Their intention would be twofold: 1) to send a message bnack to the world and 2) to unify ordinary Iranians.

5) The Israelis smell blood in the water and use the opportunity to bomb part of Iran's nuclear facilities. They can't do another raid like Iraq where all the nuclear eggs were in one basket, but they could do limited damage. This would help the right wing government at home to stay in power.

6) Iran retaliates by a large 100+ missile attack against the Israeli nuclear facility at Dimona. The Israelis have 60 - 400 nuclear weapons that are dispersed across the country, but Domina is still a major production facility.

7) Israel responds, as they have always done in the past, against both military and civilian targets using nerve gas weapons from the Ness Ziona facility. A nuclear attack by the Israeli's would be instantly detected worldwide by U.S. and Russian satellites and seismic stations everywhere. Nerve gas, however, would be difficult to pin on them without numerous international inspectors on the ground --- something Iran would not allow. Part of the nerve gas would be directed toward the hardened nuclear facilities that were not destroyed or not attacked. The remainder would be directed toward civilian targers, such as cities like tabas or Bajostan --- cities that no one except Iranians were familiar with.

8) The Iranians begin a nerve gas and possibly simultaneous biological agent attack against all Israeli cities, especially Tel Aviv. Iranian agents around the world are activated and all favors, such as with Hamas, are called in. In place resources begin a huge number of attacks against American forces in Iraq and to a much lesser extent in Afghanistan. Other terrorist groups activate to show solidarity.

The analysis is pretty standard analysis and I think most middle east analysts would se it as a good possibility. Where it would go after that would be anyone's guess. Things are so fragile in the Middle East that the amount of breakage is almost impossible to estimate as is the amount of individual restraint that can be called upon to quieten things down.

jeeesus,

You think it's a good thing for radicals like Iran to have Nuclear weapons? I don't really think you are looking at the big picture here... If it your hate for Israel clouds your thinking then it is you who has lost his mind

Who in the hell are we to tell any nation what it can and cannot do something when we do anything we damn please without the slightest consideration for others as in Iraq?

Government of Iran, and I am originally from Iran, has nothing to do with Islam just as western nations’ actions in the world has had for centuries nothing to do with Christ.

Our women could not even vote until 1920 but in contrast Islam was the first religion in the world that gave women rights unprecedented in human history. Noble Prize winner Shirin Ebadi of Iran is an example of Muslim women.

Forcing women in Iran to be hypocrites - the most despised beings according to the Qur'an – in their public appearance is again the present theocracy’s misinterpretation of Islam.

By the way as an ex-Shiite, I consider Shiism as having two fundamental flaws: believing that Prophet Muhammad, his daughter Fatima and her husband Ali and their descendents were infallible – no human being has ever been infallible - and that they should have had the right to succeeded Muhammad in ruling the Empire of Islam - a major source of schism with the Sunnis.

For myself, I have gone beyond the Abrahamic Faiths without denouncing the essence thereof.

jeeesus, Iran openly stated they wish to obliterate their enemies from the face of the earth.

Those are all quotes from them. You honestly buy that they only want nuclear power plants? What about their missile tests? Are they planning on putting a power plant in orbit or something?

You know Russia is building a power plant near Bushehr, right? Then why do they need to continue "researching" it if they have one being built outright?

When will President Obama and the current administration get it through their heads that Iran does not care about sanctions or the "Paper Tiger" organization that issues them. The U.N. and it's pathetic, weak willed attempts to bring Iran into line are a joke to most of the world. The only thing that the leaders of Iran understand is force! As that is what got them into power in the first place, what more can one expect? No more attempts at carrot dangling. It does no good. If they cannot or will not show the civilized world what they are truly doing as far as their nuclear intentions, then they should not be surprised at hostile intent or actions on the part of other countries.

The only thing that the leaders of Iran understand is force!

Yeah because Iran is always invading other countries right? They are in such a roll someone has to stop them before they take over the world with their aggression right?

Israel on the other hand? I can't think of any invasions and attacks that they have launched on anyone. Any at all. Their 24/7 call for violence against Iran, involvement in 9-11, attacks on Gaza are all just conspiracies right?

Okay thanks for clarifying that. <sarcasm>

Israel will not stop until they get us into another pointless war for Zionist ambitions. When did Israel gain the rights to attack another country for a nuclear program , with no proof of weapons development or any real evidence of an intent to use nukes against Israel?

No country has the right to declare war on another for simply making weapons. By that logic, there should have already been a WWIII.

What countries have been invaded or destroyed by Iran, in say the last 50 years even? What has Iran done to anyone aside from making idle threats against Israel, that it cannot hope to make good on? Is Iran a terrorist nation just because Israel and certain dumbass US government officials who have visited the region maybe twice say so? What evidence does anyone have that Iran has plotted against the US?

I support the Iranian people and denounce the racist, Zionist, warmongering state of Israel. The US is clearly on the wrong side, and has been for some time.

I agree.

Nice try Bernard, but no cigar! First off, I never mentioned Israel. You did. Did you conveniently choose to forget the Iranian hostage situation regarding the U.S. Embassy in Tehran? How about the tanker wars in the Strait of Hormuz. How about their constant refusal to hold any meaningful dialogue with the "Great Satan"? How about their kidnapping of British sailors in international waters a while back? What about their threats to the U.S. over their botched election that we had no hand in? Iran's leadership has already proved to the world that they have no problem killing their own people to quell what they believe is a threat to their hold on power!

If you are going to call me out on something, please make sure you have your historical background facts in order.

Chris, 1.8

Oh my God, what a horrific scenario! The Israelis would use nerve gas, and not care that it is against all rules going back to WWI....I believe it, they are ruthless, and not at all interested in diplomacy. I believe they would use it against civilians.

The picture you have painted is WWIII, isn't it? The Iranians have warned, if attacked, they have cells everywhere, in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, maybe even Lebanon. They would be activated, as you said, scary.

The Middle East would blow up. And our US forces would be right in the middle, attacked from both sides. It would be a blood bath.

What do you suggest, what are some ideas? Where would Russia and China and India fall?

As usual a few do gooders or terrorist sympathisers paint Israel as the bad guys.What part of Radical Islam is a Threat To the Entire World don't you get?The one positive in this is that for some reason Aquavelvajhad actually wants the world to have a positive opinion of him.I hope this is enough for him to avoid taking the Middle East to the brink of a nuclear confrontation.I did find it interesting that his moves have actually been toward defusing the situation (by apointing a first VP that actually desires improved relations) but the Clerics are hell bent on their own destruction.I hope cooler heads can prevail but I'm not holding my breath.

I love the "Aquavelvajhad". That was good, I like it!

Greg L ... radical is defined as irrational..and this Middle East scenario is about irrational as irrational can get..I favor no one including Israel..they have been fighting for Centuries there..pride and religion is tantamount there.. hell, they are related biblically and they cannot get along..if it was up to me, and I had that POWER to make an incredible change.. I'd disarm the whole bunch and let them fight with sticks and rocks..they are worse than some Americans with guns..some people are not responsible and mentally capable of having weapons..No, I have not Lost MY MIND..I am merely a pawn, bright enough to see the situation..Without Balance, there is NO PEACE EVER THERE !!!..like or not, We Cannot Not Break them, Iraq proved that...Americas biggest mistake was getting involved..I know what's happening, and cannot do anything about it..all I can do is like everyone else, wait & see..and it's not going to be pretty...please, don't harm the messenger..............

levantase,

WMD's (and you have to remember that biological and chemical weapons are nothing more than "poor men's nukes") are weapons for losers.

Now, let me explain that. Military people (and to a lesser extent the world at large) learned from WWII that weapons of mass destruction do not have the intended effect. The massive firebombing of German and Japanese cities did not break civilian morale and did not significantly reduce their ability to fight. So we thought that atomic weapons might do the trick. Germany was defeated without them. The nuclear weapons did, in Japan, give just a moment of pause and allowed just enough sanity to peek through for them to surrender. The two atomic bombs did not significantly reduce their military capability and did not effect morale.

So during the Korean War we tried to revert back to conventional ground forces only. After all, China did not have nuclear weapons and Russia did not seem inclined to use theirs in Korea. But all during the Korean War there was a huge amount of talk about using nuclear weapons on the Chinese and North Koreans. MacArthur took us to the brink of that precipice several times before Truman fired him. Churchill and others wanted to use nuclear blackmail against Russia.

What the militaries on all sides came up with was Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD). And it really was mad. If you try to destroy us, enough of our missiles and bombers will always slip through to assure your destruction. It only worked because there were a limited number of players (the US and the USSR) and there was a group of civilian and military leaders who had just been through WWII and didn't want to go back there.

But MAD has been tough to back down from. We are still trying to get rid of all those warheads.

But while the major powers have been getting rid of nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons, new countries have been developing them. And many of these "new members" of the WMD Club don't have a great deal of governmental integrity --- that is, their governments tend to be unstable.

Consider the instability of countries with actual or suspected nuclear arsenals (in addition to us, Russia, Great Britian, France and China) and then go look at their political stability. Pakistan (60-80), India (60-80), North Korea (5-10), Israel (80-200), South Africa (6), Georgia (?), Belarus (?), Kazhkastan (?), and Ukraine (?). Every one of these countries has very troubled governments. Then you look at the list of countries with biological (germ) warfarfe programs. It includes all those countries and many, many more. Then add the even larger list of countries with chemical (gas) wasfare programs (and only count the ones with binary nerve gasses) and you got a long list indeed.

The problem with weapons of mass destruction is that they are not first strike weapons unless the country using them has convinced itself that it will be immediately destroyed unless it strikes first and successfully avoids retaliation. The only country that has this political/military philosophy is Israel. That is very scary because the influence of the US is the only thing that keeps Israels paranoia in check. It is regularly fed by a succession of right-wing government and small invasions of its neighbors. One has to think of Israel as a paranoid schizophrenic country with atomic bombs, nerve gas, and weaponized anthrax.

North Korea is situated such and is unstable enough that it could end up thinking it had nothing to lose by attacking the South. Its economy is in shambles, it can't feed itself, and there is a regime change in the offing. Again the country has used paranoia to keep those in power in power. How much of it they believe is debatable. Think of a 2nd grade bully with a loaded handgun.

Other than Israel and North Korea, weapons of mass destruction are weapons of last resort. These countries would use WMD's if they ever perceived that they were about to lose a war. Plain and simple.

What the role of the United States has to be (if the goal it to prevent the use of WMD) is to be an honest broker who helps soothe situations and acts as insurance that a country will not be allowed to be wiped out by other countries. We have to work on Israel's paranoia and help keep them calm. At some point we have to engage them to the point that we get them to first account for, then surrender their nuclear weapons. We have sufficient leverage to do so if we will use it. Until then, Israel remains a danger to both itself and others.

Countries with nuclear weapons already need to be able to find assurance from us that we will commit to protecting their national integrity, even if we don't agree with their government or policies. For example, we can't take the side of India or China against Pakistan even if we agree with one of them. Either could destroy Pakistan militarily, but there would be hell to pay as Pakistan launched its nukes.

We may have to buy off North Korea, but we need to make sure we get what we pay for. You have to remember that the Koreans have hardened their military against US nuclear strikes for 50 years and they have both the warheads and easily sufficient missile capability to hit Seoul which is only 30 miles from the DMZ.

Other countries with nerve gas and biological weapons are an almost impossible situation to deal with. They are easy to make and easy to transport and you can find instructions on how to weaponize bacteria and how to make simple binary nerve gases on the internet. (Binary nerve gases are inert until two chemicals are mixed, usually by an exploding shell of bomb or just before release.) That is what makes the threat of Israel using nerve gas so real and scary. There is very little we can do about it. The Israeli's would initially deny it, then they would say that their military was investigating it, and then months later they would exhonerate themselves.

There was considerable speculation that Israel used nerve gas to "sanitize" the area when then used conventional bombs against the Deir ez-Zor reactor in Syria. This would have been done to kill any surviving Syrian or North Korean technicians who survived the attack.

This is all a very scary subject and has NO easy answers. In every wituation there will be hundreds of ways to screw up militarily or diplomatically, but only a handful of ways that might be successful. We need to always remain engaged, think things through, and carefully choose our course of action. We, unfortunately have a history of disengaging and then reacting instinctively instead.

If you are going to call me out on something, please make sure you have your historical background facts in order.

Okay so then should I list the U.S. atrocities for comparison?

If you feel the need to do so to prove your point, go right ahead. However bear in mind that one person's atrocities are another's military necessities. It depends on which side of the political spectrum you are speaking from. I am a retired U.S. Navy combat vet with 20 years service, so my perspective I am fairly certain will be quite different from yours. You will most likely attempt to vilify me and anything I could say since you seem to detest the military as it is. So please proceed if you feel the need. Unlike some others posting, I respect the right of others to their opinion and I ask only the same in return. Have a good day.

Sir is too civilized in his own defense. Admirable restraint, but not unlike casting pearls before swine. Ed NavDoc, you are the classiest guy in the place.

One can only try my friend, one can only try! My thanks to you.

You will most likely attempt to vilify me and anything I could say since you seem to detest the military as it is.

DEAD WRONG.

A. I spent years in the service myself (USMC)

B. My ONLY interest is to open your eyes as mine were opened.

Hold back on your assumptions....

In that case, I thank you for your service. Please note that I said most likely. That was based on your previous comments. My eyes are already opened, thank you. But just not in the same direction as yours. If I offended, my apologies. As I said, I respect your right to your opinions and I ask only the same. Semper Fi and have a good day.

As I said, I respect your right to your opinions and I ask only the same.

True words of a gentleman.

I say we (US) should give the Israeli's what they need to do what needs doing! Let them turn Iran into a glass parking lot.

All that comes from strike and counter strike is death. Israel is correct that they have the right if threaten, but they also do acknowledge diplomacy.

I agree they have the capiablity to make Iran a parking lot, and that is what worries other countries too.

Joe-668085:

You are most likely correct, the difference here is that Russia gave Israel took and then developed more. When you factor 20 years of development to 5 years the technology might be different.

Remember the Israel's are the reason the Bradley Tank was redesigned for safety. So I am certain that the Israel's have done the same with what the West gave them before.

It's interesting to see people here calling for Iran to be nuked into a glass parking lot, when a few weeks ago people were voicing their support of the people of Iran that were trying to rise up against their government. Nukes will only kill civilians... the govts have bunkers and strategies to survive.

What is the justification for Israel being the only country in the region allowed to have nukes? Where is the balance? Where is the "mutually assured destruction" deterrent?

Welcome to WWIII... 3rd times the charm.

Israel is not "allowed" to have nukes. People just say Israel does. Who really knows? No IAEA inspections. No NPT signature. There have been no underground tests. It is really no more than a rumor. Furthermore, Israel is not threatening anyone with nukes at this time. "No options off the table" is understood to mean that conventional attacks on Iran are possible. Even that is theoretical. Look at it this way: if I was going to punch your nose, would I warn you weeks, maybe months, in advance? Then if I saw you, would I punch your nose? No. I would punch your stomach, while your hands are covering your nose. A few industrial accidents near Natanz might do more harm to Iran's nuclear program than a bomb bay load of nukes. Like I keep saying, watch the headlines. Israel is a small country, surrounded by enemies. It also happens to be filled with Jews. Don't expect them to act like goyyim. When Israel acts, you may not even know they did anything.

Israel did underground nuclear test with their ally Apartheid South Africa in the 1970's. Israel must sign the NPT and allow inspections. The Arabs and the Iranians are threathened by a nuclear Israel and this is causing the arms race. The Arab states have many times demanded a nuclear free middle east which is never mentioned in the American pandering to rich Zionist media.

Mordechai Vanunu (Hebrew: מרדכי ואנונו‎, born in Marrakech, Morocco on 14 October 1954) is an Israeli former nuclear technician who revealed details of Israel's nuclear weapons programto the British press in 1986. He was subsequently lured to Italy and kidnapped by Israeli intelligence operatives. He was transported to Israel and ultimately convicted of treason.

from Wikipedia

It is clear to everyone that Israel has a nuclear weapons program, otherwise why the drastic e reaction to this man talking about a non-existent weapons program? Israel is in violation of UN resolutions on this and many other matters, yet has never been sanctioned. iran was in compliance with the NPT treaty but told the rules don't apply to you, shut down your nuclear power program anyway. It's obvious there is no concern with right or wrong here, just the normal power politics and defending our "friend" Israel no matter what they do.

Indeed!

Israel is the pot calling the kettle black. Israel was the biggest trading partner with the racist, apartheid South Africa regime. I have been waiting for someone to launch a major motion picture about this relationship and their ties with nuclear weapons.

When apartheid South Africa had to give up power, what did they truly do with those nuclear weapons which they said the incoming Africans could not possess?

Israel anyone? When is Israel going to be brought to light with their nuclear weapons programs? Why is there a horrible double standard here?

Israel emptied Uranium fields in Sina desert/Eygept befor they left. They have enough to nuke the world

Rob bot...you are in error.
The U.N. has NEVER called upon Israel to dump their Nukes...never. ..and Iran has NEVER been IN compliance with U.N. mandates.
Your argument that Iran has the same rights to Nukes as Israel, is fallacious. EVERY Arab country has attacked Israel at one time or another - and some, ESPECIALLY Iran, is threatening to do it again. Israel can NOT win a "conventional" war against 8 Arab states...period; thus, the BELIEF that Israel is a nuclear power is the ONLY deterrent they have. In 1967, when Israel was soundly defeating the Arabs, RUSSIAN war ships were 10 miles off Israel's coast - ready to intervene...that would have been the end of Israel. Israel is threatening NO Arab countries..other than threats of EITHER retaliation, or preemption when threatened. Achmadinajad has said it, plain and simple - they WILL wipe Israel off the map - and the rest of the world is waiting patiently, while Iran puts 2000 centrifuges on line each month.
Yup - Israel DID wipe Saddam's Nuke facility off the map - geez, that was in 1981 - what would have happened, in 1991 when the U.S. invaded Iraq, had Iraq had nuclear capabilities ?
As long as there is an 8-1 advantage of the Arab states against Israel, I have NO problem with Israel having the nuke advantage - we CAN trust Israel not threaten (offensive) nuclear use - we can NOT trust Iran to do the same.

BenCT

If Isreal attacks forst, we'll know because everyone in the region will be screaming.

Lol, Andre..you are funny.
ISRAEL is an aparthied state. You see, they are racists for calling themselves a Jewish state, but, of course, those 8 surrounding states, calling themselves MUSLIM states, are ok.
Tell me, Andre..in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, etc - how many JEWISH Political parties are there ? In Israel, there a 9 (NINE) Arab political parties.

Israel does not have the capability to destroy Iran's nuclear weapons facilities using conventional weapons. They are widely dispersed and hardened specifically against Israeli/American attack. They were well aware of Israel's raid on Osirak when they designed their facilities.

They have both a large nuclear arsenal (estimated at 60-400 weapons) but those are starting to age and have never been tested (though there is suspicion that there was one fizzled test in the Negev. Israeli also has a large, but unknown stockpile of CBW at Ness Ziona. The extent of the biological weaponry is unknown, but is thought to consist, at a minimum of weaponized anthrax. There are known to be large stockpiles of both mustard and nerve gas dispersed throughout the country in both bombs and artillery shells. (In face the Israeli government, in a bizarre twist of karma, has previously sold both nerve and mustard gas to Iran.)

A likely Israeli strike would use "bunker buster" bombs from the U.S. to strike key facilities. How successful this would be is debatable. They would then formally request that we replace the bombs in their inventory, involving us.

Nerve gas would probably be more likely to succeed, but a WMD first strike would instantly turn world opinion against them, including the U.S.

Hey Jeff, so our "partner" Israel can be trusted as a certain ally when???? when we fight wars on her behalf? Are you saying that 8-1 is a "real" disadvantage? so if I put 8 mice against you and you are also supported by a lion, you will still be at a disadvantage right? poor you baby

So you say that Iran is aiming at nuclear power just for the sake of it? I understand, nukes are the basic tool at anyone's kitchen, who needs water if you have a nuke right?. So Israel is the thiny shield standing between us and that world class nuke warrior Achmadinajad?. Please dont be ridiculous, if we are at odds with arabs, it is because we couldnt care less of what Israel does with our resources against those miserable palestinians, or you will say that palestinians want to destroy America just because they dont like the freedom and democracy brought by strip clubs?

Chris, in your opinion, does Israel not have the technical and industrial capability to make bunker buster bombs on their own? I would think they would have reached this industial capability by this time. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

To all of you stating that Iran should be nuked, you only prove your own ignorance of the balance of power in the Middle-East! Not to mention the fact that thousands upon thousands of innocent people woulddie either immediately or from the aftereffects of radiation fallout and poisoning! This also does not take into account the possibility of further escalation between those world powers having nuclear weapons such as Russia, China, Pakistan, and India. Or us for that matter. The problem with Iran is with it's leadership, not the people. They would be the real victims of a nuclear strike attempt against Iran!

In short people, please make sure brain is engaged before putting mouth in gear!

While I'd love to see an end to radical Islam I have no desire for nuclear war,anywhere, ever. We have to hope common sense and logic prevail,a dubious prospect in the always volatile Middle East.If there is conflict we need to pray it's a conventional conflict,because once the nuclear option is used,it will only be a matter of time before it's used again.Of course if AlGore is right cow farts and car exhaust are a bigger threat to the Earth's survival than a Radical Islamic regime having nukes!

I did some quick calculations. When Chernobyl went, there was a measurable increase in cancer rates in the Unites States. A nuclear strike against the 14 or so key targets in Iran's nuclear program would be the equivalent to somewhere between 40 and 3,000 Chernobyls depending on the makeup of the weapon and how it was detonated (most likely it would be very dirty detonations because the targets are mostly underground.) Are you ready to support to Israelis's to the tune of thousands of additional cases of cancer in the US per year for the next 20 or so years?

Ed-NavDoc,

My assumption is that Israel could easily recerse-engineer and make bunker-buster bombs, but why should they bother? We sell them to Israel for about 18 cents on the dollar. If they use them in combat (regardless or whether we agree with their specific use) we replace them for free as some sort of bizarre military lifetime guarantee. All under the caption of "military aid." Israel is very good at mobilizing both American Jewry and even American Evangelicals (go figure) to keep American politicians in line.

Yes, I know the story of Mordechai Vanunu. He told a story to a newspaper, and they paid him lots of money for the "intelligence." Not unlike "Curveball," the Iraqi informant so central to the American case against Iraq. Even worse, in fact, because the man was blabbing to a tabloid, and not to a friendly government. I don't know Mordechai, but I served with his nephew. I could probably visit Vanunu in prison if I cared to. But God bless, you have Wikipedia.

Chris - you state many allegations as fact. Who has verified these alleged WMD's? Despite all that was wrong with your post, I agree on the preference for "bunker buster" bombs over atomic bombs. As you pointed out, alleged Iranian nuclear facilities may be "hardened," even buried deep underground. Well then, the best way to destroy the facilities would be to place a bomb underground, and cause the roof to collapse. Alternately, a radiation leak could make the entire facility unusable. Pure speculation on my part.

Ed NavDoc, Once again you have my support against nuclear warfare. Atomic bombs are not "just another weapon." They are a weapon of last resort. However, in Israel's case, Russia has been a staunch enemy for 60 years. Russia still allegedly holds about 5,000 nuclear warheads. IF Israel had nuclear warheads, they MIGHT be held in reserve for Russian involvement in a war... say, sending nuclear submarines to the Levant in wartime...

BTW, Russia supplies uranium, and is responsible for hauling off spent fuel rods, in Iranian reactors. Can you see clearly now, or is the Jew in the picture obscuring your vision?

Ben my thanks to you Sir. As always, it is a pleasure to hear your well reasoned comments.

And everyone should remember, as the Israeli's well know ---- the Iranians are not Arabs. They are Persians and speak Farsi instead of Arabic. They generally use a Koran that has been translated into Farsi. This is considered blasphemy by a large part of the Mulsim world who see the Koran as a "perfect" document as written in Arabic. What this translates into is a feeling that Arab countries would not immediately jump up to support Iran in a confrontation. In general Arab countries would have to think about it for a while (especially Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Libya, and Saudi Arabia who could possibly gain from Iran being smacked down.) Iran would also need time to marshal support within other Muslim countries.

Then do you see that happening now? Is Iran starting diplomatic talks with Arab countries? Countries like Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan, while weak, would be squarely behind Iran, no?

If Israel releases nerve gas, it will be obvious to everyone it was they that did it. World reaction would be incredibly harsh and negative if this were to occur, correct? Like Israel cares.

Iraq is still pissed at Iran although not to the extent it was,Afghanistan is mostly Sunni so it wouldn't be jumping into the fray too quickly.The worst fear for Israel would be all the Arab nations putting aside their religious disputes to defeat their common enemy,the Jew. They hate each other but they hate Israel more so if conflict can be avoided that is (as always) the best course of action.

We have pretty much given Iraq over to Iran as a client state when we pull out. The majority of Iraqi's are Shi'ites and all the vast majority of Iranians are. The Iranians can use the threat of a re-emergence of Sunni dominance as cement for the "friendship." The boggest problem is the language barrier. Iran sees itself as the leader of the Arab world, but unfortunately most Arabs don't see it that way. With few exceptions there will never be much cooperation between Arab states. They don't trust each other and Islam is so fragmented and sectarian that it makes Christianity look cohesive. If you want to see what "real" radical Islam looks like, go look at out friends, the Wahabis (Saudi Arabia.)

It is unlikely that they would join together quickly enough to ever be a force against Israel as a cooperating group.

There is already a "cold peace" btwn Saudi and Israel. They can't make the agreement public until the Palestinian question is resolved. Saudi is about making money, not making war. They are dying to do business with Israel. Especially since Israel negotiated a water deal with Turkey... pipeline soon to follow.

While I don't agree with everything you said, I do agree with some of it...

and either way... I thank you for your service and sacrifices.

I agree with V. And I thank you too, Derek.

i dont feel the people of this nation are behind anything the corrupt government does. we have been lied to for many years. we have a congress who represent special interests because every day americans cant linere their pockets to their liking, we have a president who hasent learned the definition of open government and cant handle a budget. i sincerely believe our government will let our ally israel be destroyed because they dont want to offent the muslems.

V, love your ID picture, best laugh I've had all day! Hell it's the only laugh Ive had today.

When Israel became a state, mobs rampaged through Baghdad killing Jews. The entire Iraqi Jewish community left for Israel. Jews had been in Babylon since the days of Nebuchadnezzer. Israelites had been in Assyria even earlier, since the days of Sargon. The hatred is mostly coming from one side. And yet the world blames Israel for lack of peace. Jews predate Islam in Arabia. That is a fact. You don't believe me, read the Qoran. What was Medina called before Muhammed came to that city? Who lived there? Go find out for yourself.

I am a real Jew, and I speak the truth. Are you calling me a liar? Prove me wrong.

I know not this Israel of which you speak. The quotes are strange and disturbing. I have read David Ben-Gurion, and I have not seen these passages. What I have read was of an entirely contrary spirit to the alleged quotes above.

Where are the quotes from? Who heard him speak or saw him write these words? Are they any relevant documents? Any corroborating evidence? Why are these documents so secret that they are hidden from Israeli citizens? And if so, how did your intrepid journalist gain access to State Secrets?

Anyone can write that anyone said anything. If the person quoted is dead. Then there can be no libel suit. Correct me if I am mistaken, Professor.

Some people claim to have evidence that Barack Obama is not a citizen, that he is a secret Muslim, and that he is not even President. What do you think of people who write things like that?

Some of what you say is true. I have seen destroyed villages, covered by pine forests. I know there was war in these places. These are not secrets. What you wrote about the Galillee is counter-intuitive. I have been all over the Galillee. There are many thousands of Arabs in the hills. Maybe some were driven out, but others were allowed to stay. That is to be expected in war. Generally, combatants are killed in battle, territory is conquered and secured, and suspect populations are deported. Show me WHERE and WHEN in history when that has not been the normal course of events.

Ben, sounds to me like the good prof is trying to engage in a little revisionist history maybe?

He must get his facts from the "Protocols"

You don't know me at all. Yes, Israelis can be hard. So can I. I can be so hard I scare myself. As for sinking the Altalena (Irgun) ship, I APPLAUD that action. Do you have a problem with it? Let me tell you why it was great. A State can only have ONE ARMY. Private militias pursuing their own agendas are destructive to national interests. Fatah knows this. That is why they are even allowed a seat at the table. That is the basic starting point of negotiations.

That is why some of us have had long contacts with members of Fatah. We want them to have their own "Altalena" incident. They must crush Hamas, if they want a state. It's that simple. If that bothers you, then you don't live in reality, and you will never be satisfied.

The US Civil War made this country what it is. Which side would you take in that conflict? Would you be complaining about atrocities, crying for the widows, calling it disproportionate force? There were some bad ones, how about Sherman's march through Atlanta. And I APPLAUD all the blood that was shed, and all the suffering. Without it, we would not have a strong Union, slavery would still be legal, and States would be free to deny civil rights to citizens.

The Jews have had their civil war, between Jewish militias. The war with the Palestinians was also a civil war. They all could have lived together, but ARABS KEPT SHOOTING. You can complain about provovation all you want. If I beat you badly, but defended myself in court as having been provoked, the Judge would still charge me with assault. Simple solution: stop shooting. Stop bombing. Stop fighting, period.

The Arabs lose. They will keep losing. How many will have to die until they stop this nonsense? Do you understand, the Israeli army IDF is potentially 20 million strong? Yes, even women serve in combat units. And Jews like myself fly there just to defend Israel, hoping that we might return afterward to our homelands. Call it Zionist propaganda all you want, ze natah betocheynu. It is in our bones. We will defend our people, even though the whole world calls us simultaneously cowards and bullies...

Negotiations are the only way forward. Admittedly, Netanyahu is not the ideal Prime Minister to make a peace treaty. The Palestinians are stalling for time, running out the clock until Netanyahu's inevitable ouster (Inshallah).

I know about ethnic cleansing. My neighbors tried to do it to me here, in the United States. Don't tell me anti-semitism is dead. My neighbor tried to murder me in the street, in front of my home. I was 10 years old. No police ever came. I have learned to live my life as a war. Who's fault is that? I used to play violin, I am a bookworm, I love comic books and science fiction. By rights, I should be a nerd. Thanks to anti-semitism, I was forced to fight my way up the street to school. Up to five fist fights a day, defending myself...

WAS I PROVOKING SOMEONE??!!!

If they would have left me alone, I would never have learned to fight. If the Palestinians had not murdered civilians in Jerusalem, where my elderly uncle lives, I would never have got military training. I have been also to Egypt and Jordan, and met with Iraqi government officials. I have Palestinian, Egyptian, Syrian, and Algerian friends. I even speak a little Arabic. I know that not all Arabs are terrorists. I want a progressive future for the mid-east. That is unfortunately just a dream, until private militias are destroyed, and foreign sponsors of terrorism are severely punished.

Your wishful thinking is weakening your own resolve, providing amunition to our enemies, and actually solving nothing. Nonetheless, you have the right to freedom of speech. As a scholar, I would request links and footnotes for controversial quotes. It is standard academic practice, and I can't take seriously poor scholarship, and intuitive leaps. You will have to try harder. You are stretching for a B-, and falling short.

Your anger obscures your vision. There is much injustice in the world. Israel is not perfect. There is a democratic process, and I am not alone in desiring a change of government. I have hated Netanyahu for a long time. I despised him since the first time I met him, in 1994. He is a glib liar. Even though others can see that he is false, he seems to think he is fooling everyone. I have hated him since he set off a shooting war with Fatah back in 1997. I used to guard Kfar Darom. I had the easiest tour in Gaza Strip history. As soon as Netanyahu was elected, there was a 72 hour firefight at my old guard post, and Fatah was alienated, and Arafat declared the Second Intifada. Netanyahu plays with innocent lives, seeking power and glory. Why was Rabin killed, and Netanyahu lived? There is much injustice in this world.

My dear Proffessor, I do not do Homework. I write the Exam. You are welcome to attend class any time. I will anwer all questions to the best of my ability. I welcome differences of opinion and perspective. However, I find your un-named source not credible. I have met four Israeli Prime Ministers. I have met many people in the mid-east. When the time is right, it might just be me sitting at the table. I am sorry you had a bad experience of Israel. It isn't easy to survive there. Maybe that's why people are so hard?

My bad, you named a source:

Here is a good book on the subject: Lenni Brenner: Zionism in the Age of the Dictators.
it can be read on line, if you care.

I will look into it.

If you were scoffing earlier at my service in Gaza Strip, be mindful that I was Nahal Brigade, Gdud 931, Infantry. I have been to Lebanon as well. Lived there 3 months. Not so easy to come home in one piece. Not what you would call a bs tour. Don't give up on Israel so easily. There are many progressive people, and the political situation has changed drastically since the 1980's. Withdrawal from occupied territories is now a mainstream position. Since Ariel Sharon showed it could be done, that is one impediment removed. Withdrawal from Lebanon provides a counter-example. Withdrawal of IDF from the "security zone" has not brought security. You are too harsh on your own people. I would hope you are just as harsh on others. As for myself, I try to judge people favorably, it at all possible.

You don't even know it, you have conversed with one of the most progressive Israeli citizens in the USA. If I am still too nationalistic and cruel for your tastes, then expect a life of bitter disappointment. There is no one else who would give the Palestinians more, or is better placed to actually do it.

When I was there, it was a whole different situation. We weren't trying to advance, the military command wanted to withdraw. Hizbullah had infiltrated SLA, and they knew all our movements in advance. They had "civilian" scouts on every hilltop, in every village. Hizbullah would taunt us on our own military radio frequencies. They had IED's that looked exactly like natural boulders, and radio detonators. They still couldn't shoot for sh!t, or properly azimuth a mortar strike, but they were getting very creative... suicide hang-gliders, anyone? They blew up a Major not 20 feet from the gate. We couldn't move forward or backward without stepping on a mine, or walking into an ambush. Ehud Barak was a genius for withdrawing from Lebanon. It lost him re-election. But Nahal remembers Ehud Barak. He wore the green beret when he addressed our Brigade. Don't give up on Israel. It is a long hard fight, and the opponent is still the same. Bibi's Likud faction is essentially a legalized Etzel party. Likud has lost all moderates to the Kadima party. Today the battle is at the ballot box. I have faith in the Israeli people to make the right choice. I wish I could say the same for the Palestinians.

And if you thought $4.50 a gallon for gas was bad...........

I'm not worried about the gas. I am worried about the recession we already have. And the billions of dollars place on war instead on the economy.

I am, if Israel attacks Iran they (Iran) will sink supertankers in the Straits of Hormuz or mine the Straits to block oil shipments. Now your looking at $15.00 dollar a gallon gas if you can get it, now your looking at civil unrest or worse as nothing moves or shipping makes the cost of things unaffordable or unavailable. And sad to say, war is our economy.

Ok Steve. Tell that to the millions of people who are still unemployed for over a year. That maybe good for the soldiers but not for other workers or professionals who are still unemployed. Either because their office, stores and other businesses closes or because no job was coming in.

Herewegoagain,

If we don't have the gas to supply the United States we are finished as a Nation. How can you possibly care about the recession but don't give a damn about the price of gas or the possibility of not having it?

The Isarelis want us to fight their battles so they could build more colonial settlements and steal more of what is left of Palestine. If any country needs to be bombed it is the ethnic cleansing expansionist racist state of Israel!

If Arab nations would learn to just stop attacking Israel then maybe they would stop loosing their land. Israel has actually been kind in giving some land back.

And what has our president trying to do to get us energy independent? He wasts to tax the energy more! Why didn't the stimulus contain nuclear energy plants? Is he afraid it will create real jobs and not just "shovel ready" jobs?

Wow...ignorance to the third power, Justice. I hope the hate in your heart burns you every day that Israel is in existence - I hope it haunts you every moment.

Jeff,

Yeah, The hate for the Jews runs deep here...

If anyone on here thinks for a second that the US will allow Iran to close the Straits of Hormuz,they are sadly mistaken...

We cold have freedom form Mideast oil ,but the left tries apease the environmentalist...If we as a country want to rid our self of mid east oil we need to start drilling for oil here today....Until that happens we will be held hostage..

dont forget pushing korea to the limit and possibly their friends the chinese

Herewegoagain2009, I wasn't disagreeing with you, just making the point this is something intimately intertwined with our fate, not some far off threat that doesn't affect us. And my wife has been unemployed for 3 months without unemployment so trust me, I know all about the strains of the bad economy.

Obviously we don't want Iran to have an atomic weapon, I agree and we don't want them harming their neighbors. But wait and freeze for a second. Haven't we heard this before we go to Iraq blaming them to have atomic weapons or WMD and later found out that there is no WMD. Do we already have evidence that Iran have nuclear weapons or WMD? And what will Admiral Mullin have to say about this? Aren'twe jumping on the gun on this with Iran? Shouldn't we just let the two side (Iran and Israel) sit and talk this out like mature and civilize people before we rush to judgements.

Well, if we can get Jews and Persians to sit down and talk like civilized and mature people I think we would be 90% there on middle east peace LOL. And I agree, this is exactly like the run up to the Iraq wars and I think it would be a total disaster for us to get behind an attack, one that VP Biden green lit in the last few weeks.

Steve papa and others,

If Iran were to mine the Straits of Hormuz (or sink tankers there) it would make little difference in American oil supplies and the American government could act quickly and stabilize American oil prices.

Here's the scenario:

We don't get any oil from Iran. Period.

We don't get very much oil from Iraq (they still have not repaired the damage from the Gulf War.)

Saudi Arabia and Yemen can ship oil to the Red Sea via the EW Pipeline and revive another retired pipeline and bypass most of the problem.

Russia would love to step in and help with the shortfall in Europe in return for weakening NATO.

It wouldn't shoot our oil prices up very much. We get almost all of our oil from domestic production, Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela. What the government would have to do would be to lock in those sources and prices so they did not float with the world spot market. They only country that would give us trouble would be Venezuela and we could nationalize Citgo and freeze him out. There would be a lot of people who would cry "socialism" but it would probably be the government's best option.

Thing is, this isn't new. They have had the "no options off the table" stance for many years now. Iran is still Iran. There is still no real working 2 state solution for the Palestinians. I'll also point out that Egypt and Israel had a 'hot war' and are not threatening each other, which shows that Israel can make peace, at least outside of the current problem in Gaza.

Not worried about gas prices, yeah they might go up some, but we've been there and done that. Also we have the largest oil shale deposits in the world, once oil goes over 80$ a barrel, we might as well just use our own oil, we just continue to import because we're lazy. Also, with less customers, and blocking their own oil routes any hostile oil exporter will have a crap economy (lose 90% of revenue) even worse than everyone else.

Having said that, I don't want anything violent to happen. Worst case scenario should be more rhetoric on both sides, followed by Iran getting nukes and Israel getting a US anti ICBM facility paid for by Israel (that also happens to shield against every country on that side of the earth.) It could piss the Russians off, but not enough to do anything. The only problem then is the same as we have with NK, and that is the possibility of parking a boat with a nuke on it near a big port city.

Well guys, what caused the price of oil to go to $150.00 a barrel last year that caused gas to go to $4.50 a gallon. Oil is not a supply and demand commodity anymore, its a futures market speculative commodity. There is no reason for oil to be $60.00 a barrel now and here in Indy the price of gas goes up on Fridays (payday), it was 2.16 on Wed and 2.60 on Fri last week. Traders manipulate the price and if there is war between Israel and Iran that will be the perfect excuse to jack up the price on a barrel. Remember, oil from Texas costs as much as oil from Saudi Arabia and short of military action I don't know how we would stop Iran from doing anything. And there is a lot of money to be made on oil and weapon sales, it's the bankers and not the politicians that scare me on this one. Nice to have a conversation with Chris and others that didn't devolve into name calling and personal attacks, thanks guys.

Oil fear factor? Blame the problem to Karl Friedrich who invented the Gasoline automobile powered by an internal combustion engine. We been spending billions of dollars on imported oil and currently 50% our oil demand come from foreign countries. What we needed is independence from foreign oil and depend on our resources and alternative energy. We are already on recession and I think this is the time to explore and depend on our country's abundance resources and alternative energy. We already have PRUDHOE BAY, Alaska oil field and alternative energy we can explore and get our oil, gas, oil shale and coal that can be converted to oil Alaska, Colorado and Utah have this natural resources and are currently being explored by our government and other companies like Shell. Alternative energy like electric grid to power electric cars, electric car production to replace our gas gustler vehicle program needed to impose to eliminated our fear and dependence on foreign oil. I think its time to have freedom from oil dependence from foreign oil .

http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewiStockNews/articleid/3344438

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prudhoe_Bay_oil_field

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14219844/?GT1=8404

http://www.altenergy.org/

http://www.zapworld.com/

http://www.greencar.com/

http://evworld.com/index.cfm

What is your position on Ethanol fuel?

Ethanol fuel is also good. The emissions are about 15 percent lower, but the fuel economy is also lower by as much as 30 percent because ethanol has less energy than gasoline.

Also a set of standards should also be set if this clean energy cars comes into production to minimize dificulty in repairs, production and maintenance.

I prefer Ethanol to Hydrogen. Fuel cells are just a battery. The energy must come from somewhere. Unless the power source is solar, then there would be emissions from the coal, Oil, or wood fuel that is combusted, the energy stored in hydrogen fuel cells. Some think nuclear power should charge fuel cells. That seems like the old lady who swallowed a fly. I have done a little research on alternative fuels. It appears that Biodiesel can be manufactured in a garage or shed, using essentially free feedstock (used cooking oil). I may be mistaken, but it appears that Ethanol fuel is more or less triple-distilled moonshine. That can be made by private citizens as well. I want the new fuel economy to be decentralized, and home-grown. Substituting one master for another does not seem to be an improvement.

As per Israel-Iran conflict. In the notion if Iran were to attack Israel, just give all the defense system , Israel needed to defend its own. But give peace a chance. And leave US alone with this problem. We already have enough problems of our own.

100% Agreed.

Marine Vet for President!!!

People can flame me for being anti-semitic and that's right -- I am. But did any of you read Anne Frank's diary? Do you remember how, when these two families were hidden in an attic, terrified they were going to be murdered at any moment, the two women were fighting about whose linen and dishes they were going to use? Neither wanted to use her own things, but to keep them for good. That's a Jew for you.

No, that's people for you.

Although I do not feel war is ever an answer, and although I do not hate Jews or Israelis, the sooner Israel is destroyed, the better for world peace. Israel is alot of the reason for the mess in the Middle East. Let Europe find them a home, where they belong.

I did not work my butt off raising a family to see my way of life destoyed by another country who wants to start a war over there. And don't start that baloney about only defending themselves.

Israel is no friend to us, they want to start a war, and have America fight it for them, NO WAY.

The sooner Israel is sent into the history books, the BETTER.

Hey there marine vet: Let's see what we have here. Two governments with diametrically opposing views of the the world. BUT, only ONE of them has declared that the other should be wiped off the map. What the christ do you EXPECT Israel to do. Sit back and wait for the Iranians to complete development of their nukes and THEN take action. I don't think so. Yes the Israelies have nukes...have had them for probably 20 years. Haven't used them though have they. Do you really think that that bellicose and sorry excuse for a government in Iran will not use them if they are allowed to achieve their goals? And no...I am not a Jew.

Fieldtheory--I hope you do hate Jews because I wouldn't want anyone as dumb as you in their fan club. Hate Salk for saving you and your kids from polio. Hate Freud for seeing into the human mind and helping us understand the psyche. Hate Einstein for revolutionizing our concepts of the universe.

While you're at it, hate Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, Moses and Jesus. Oh yes, throw in Kirk and Spock--both Jewish actors. Dunce!

Don't forget the zionist nukes and ballistic missles.

You are an idiot! It is clear you have not studied history - it is better to be quiet and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt! Israel has a right to protect itself - & who do you think Iran will go after they destroy Israel - 3 guesses - America .....................................................let Israel do what they do better than we do - get rid of the terrorists so we can live in peace, I for one am tired of being afraid of flying or going to a crowded event - when have you ever seen an Israeli terrorists? Wake up - Iran wants us off the map as well as Israel.

Unfortunetly, the Israeli lobby is allowed by the president and even more the congress to run American foreign policy especialy in the middle East.

Yes, justicenow, your post is reflected by previous posts under:

Israel seeking 'understanding' with U.S.

Sun Jul 26, 2009

I am questioning credibility. I am questioning how the American Israeli Lobby has communicated with the Presidents and U.S. Congress for U.S. Appropriations.

I am also questioning, now, if Israel is using the same illogical, circular argument regarding Iran, and they have regarding the Palestinians; e.g., telling Americans the Israelis want peace, on the one hand, then say there will be peace when the Palestinians come to the peace table, while all along the Israelis have, in fact, been consistently creating conditions totally unfavorable for anyone to come to a peace table. That, Americans, is called illogical circular argument, meant to manipulate and deceive the American people for U.S. Congressional Appropriations. I, am not anti-semitic. I am raising questions of credibility based upon news and communications from Israeli supporters who have argued my questions.

Marine...there IS a counter-weight to Israel's belligerence ! It's called "extermination". How RUDE of them to refuse to go quietly into the night and accept their extermination at the hands of the very same states who will THEN turn their ire on others who dont believe as they do. Israel whould really just abandon their entire arsenal and trust the U.N. to keep it safe. Oh, WAIT ! there WAS a U.N. buffer between Israel and Egypt in '67. (what did the U.N. do when Egypt attacked ? they moved aside saying they were there as a deterrant, not as fighters); WAIT - there WAS a U.N. contingent between Israel and Lebanon 2 years ago, too...well, that REALLY deterred Lebanon.
You and M BEAR are of the same cloth - better to destroy Israel because once they're gone, there will be world peace.....KUM-BA-YA.

tyler or other Newsvine Moderator

I believe the following comments are in violation of the COH. Although we are not supposed to use the Anti-S or Anti-Z words I believe these may fit those categories (One by its own admission). Further, I have been criticized and suspended for far, far less inflammatory comments and I would like to know if there has been a rule change that I am unaware that allows such comments.

Yes I have reported the items as Inflammatory.

Comment 6.2 by fieldtheory

"There is a reason that more than 70 countries have at one time in their history kicked out the Jews. They will never get along with anyone. They cause trouble wherever they go. They will never leave Palestine alone because they are greedy. There will never be peace in the Middle East until the US stops supporting Israel's land grab and concentration camps.

There is a real reason for the stereotype of a greedy Jew.

People can flame me for being anti-semitic and that's right -- I am. But did any of you read Anne Frank's diary? Do you remember how, when these two families were hidden in an attic, terrified they were going to be murdered at any moment, the two women were fighting about whose linen and dishes they were going to use? Neither wanted to use her own things, but to keep them for good. That's a Jew for you."

Comment 6.4 by M. WHITE BEAR

"Although I do not feel war is ever an answer, and although I do not hate Jews or Israelis, the sooner Israel is destroyed, the better for world peace. Israel is alot of the reason for the mess in the Middle East. Let Europe find them a home, where they belong.

The sooner Israel is sent into the history books, the BETTER."

Stop whining..............

Your worthless comments are as ridiculous as your poetry.

Common sense is always refreshing.

Marine Vet, you don't know WTF you are talking about. I lived in Israel five years, and returned many times. I hold dual-citizenship. The benefits you speak of are available to volunteer soldiers from overseas, with no family in Israel. Other than that specific instance, there is no truth to your myth. Once I was discharged, Israel had no further use for me. I could not get health insurance, because the State said I owed back taxes. They would not present me with a bill, so I couldn't pay. Therefore, I was completely unable to get health insurance. All the rest is nonsense as well. I scrounged for a living in Israel, cutting trees, cleaning hotel rooms, picking cotton, telemarketing, etc. Sort of like the jobs dark-skinned people do in the USA. Where was the easy life you promise? If I can have it, I think they should give it to me. After all, I left behind a cushy life in America to engage the enemy, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hizbullah, etc... while Americans pretended terrorism didn't exist. You know, the "pre-9/11 mentality"... And now, after 9/11, some Americans are still eager to blame al-Qaeda, Iraq, and general instability on the Jews. Your game is old, and we are wise to your tricks. I could care less about your service to this country. You do America a great disservice spreading lies and hatred. If you would just be silent, I would salute you.

fieldtheory, people like you are the reason Israel is in the mid-east to begin with. Theodor Herzl didn't care where the Jewish State would be, only that it would have an army. Because of people like you. The Zionists could not attract settlers to the Israeli desert, until Russian, Ukrainian, and Polish pogroms drove waves of refugees to Israel. Even so, Jews were not a majority in Israel in 1948, when the State of Israel was formed. The Jews became a majority in Israel in the years immediately following, as DP camps dumped concentration camp survivors on Cyprus, and Jews could not get a visa to any other country. People like you are the reason military training is freely available to all Jews world wide. We are ready for you. Assemble your neo-Nazi army, and meet me in the Valley of Jehosaphat. I AM EAGERLY AWAITING YOU!

You sound like a 4- year old, Frank.
Without the help of the U.S., Israel, WHEN attacked (not "if"), cannot win a "conventional" war..they CAN'T, and thus, thier only option would be to go "tactical".
NO ONE wants that, so, the region's BEST chance of staying UN- radioactive, is to keep Israel safe. What YOU suggest, will leave a large percentage of the worl'd oil radioactive and non-accessible...then you'll be paying 15.00 a gallon, and who will you blame ? SURPRISE ! NOT the countries that attacked Israel, but, rather, Israel for refusing to permit its destruction.
I hope you've had a vasectomy, Frank - you have NO business in the gene pool.

So Jeff, you have successfully argued that any conventional attack on Israel will end in Nukes. I assume this would make a good argument as to why Iran wouldn't attack them with nukes either, same result right? However, I could see a pre-emptive strike on Iran triggering massive terrorist attacks in Israel and their supporters. I think the easy way out would be to give Iran the option of letting in full inspections or we arm Israel to the hilt with anti missle shields etc.

Also, Egypt thought the same thing back in '67. Israel would be real hard for Iran to defeat w/o Iraq's cooperation. Israel would dominate many middle eastern air forces. Even w/o our support. I think a good position would be a typical non-answer "both sides should work towards peace."

Excellent analysis, Bounty.
Of course, in a perfect world, the easiest way to cure the problem would be for Iran to allow U.N. inspectors in, but, in reality, the easy way may not work: consider these scenarios:
1. We let Iran go ahead with their nuclear program - they let us inspect; THEN, in a few years, when they are "online", they refuse further inspection, then, we (again) start sabre-rattling about sanctions. (Remember - whether you agree with Gulf Wat II, or not, whether Saddam had WMD's or not, what everyone AGREES with, is that Saddam, as a condition of Gulf War I ending, was to allow inspectors, which they did, until Bush Jr. took office - THEN they refused inspections) . Remember also, that Israel bombed Iraq's nuclear facility in 1981 (to the world's condemnation) . What would have happened had Iraq been a nuclear power in 1991 ?
Should Iran act the same way, WHEN they , in a few years, refused additional inspections, they would already be a nuclear power..what then ?
2. Neither Iraq, nor any other Arab country NEEDS a delivery system for a nuclear missile, if the target is Israel - it is SO small a country, and the enemy SO close, that no high tech delivery system would ameliorate the strike. The strike need not be at Jerusalem or Tel Aviv to be effective.
3. Yes, both sides SHOULD work for peace. The PROBLEM is, there are NOT "2-sides". Israel can make peace with ANY of its neighbors BUT, so long as those governments cannot (or WILL not), control the terrorists, Israel will give up much in the way of land (and more) for a peace that will not be forthcoming.
4. Example - it is a common cry from people that, Israel's closing the crossings into Gaza is directly responsible for Gazans starving - what they dont TELL you is that there IS a border between Gaza and Egypt - now, the question begs - WHY cant Gazans get assistance from Egypt ? Simple - because the Egyptians closed THEIR crossing with Gaza as well - WHY ? WHY would an Arab country close its border with those POOR kindered spirits ? Because Egypt is and has BEEN, a target of Arab terrorists because of their liberal stance toward the West, toward Egypt and because they refuse to implement and live under Shirya, fundamentalist law. These naysayers who claim that Israel is the cause of all the world's ills, fail to see that Arabs are killing each OTHER- Shiite v. Sunni....Monteleone, Northern Africa..places that Muslims kill others simply because that particular sect does not agree with theirs - HOW do you make peace ?...with WHOM do you make peace ?
Bounty - I am not saying that you're wrong - I am just saying that it's not that simple.
You SEE that the world at large, is NOT "pro" Israel - this being the case, why is almost the ENTIRE world against Iran's nuclear program if they thought that only Israel was at risk ?

Israel sit on the sidelines and do nothing? You are clueless.

Oilhog, it is a question of whether not the U.S. Congress has been manipulated and deceived to pass U.S. Congressional Appropriations for Israel.

Yes, Martin, because Israel is ALWAYS on the sidelines, right ? I mean, NO Israelis have been killed...only Americans fighting Israel's battles right ?
HOW many Americans have died fighting the wars on Israel's fronts in 49 ? NONE - '56 ? NONE; '67 ? NONE; 72 ? NONE
Now, IF you can COUNT and not just blow diatribe out your butt, HOW many Americans have dies for the Afgans ? French ? Germans ? Iraquis ? LOL - your and base-lss ignorance is SO transparant.

End welfare payments to isreal now!

Stop paying Israel BILLIONS of dollars in welfare!

End corporate welfare now! End outscourceing to Asia now! End sweetheart deals between good old boys now! Stop slapping "made in the usa" labels on goods made in Mexico and Thailand! YOU ARE ALL HYPOCRITES.

You make believe it is all about taxpayer dollars. I have news for you: your taxpayer dollars do not even cover daily operating expenses. Public officials are paid with borrowed money. US is on the verge of defaulting to many international creditors, China chief among them. If anything,now is the time to kiss some Jewish butt, and ask nicely for some more AMERICAN WELFARE.

You are a profligate people, you live on credit cards, you sell your own homes many times over, and are shocked when the collateral is repossessed. Stop spending other people's money before you complain about the Jews. We possess the cut gemstone industry, yet we own no diamond mines. We run the camera business, yet we make no cameras. We design secret high technology weapons systems, and share them only with the USA. We grow tomatoes in beds of gravel, irrigated with sea water. Show some respect. You are not superior, and you are not in a strong negotiating position.

I suggest you humble yourselves, live upright, and seek God, before you insult the Children of Israel. We don't need YOUR money. You need OUR money. You are living on it right now. Say thank you, and I will let the matter drop.

Excuse me, BenCT, but your post is not making much sense. The U.S. Congress Appropriates U.S. taxpayers' money to Israel, and you are saying Israel is giving the U.S. money? Oh, you mean, investing in the stock market. If that is what you mean, why is the U.S. Congress Appropriating U.S. taxpayers' money to Israel, if Israel has money to invest in the stock market. This looks like it could be another circular argument. Please clarify your post.

???

???

I suppose if one took an hour, you could make sense of it. Not me!

Victor, do you want to give your message another try?

No more for you!!!!!

Let them get more involved in the process then...

Why are we always the ones to look after the Israel? Why is out OUR presidents one after the other failing at trying to broker peace in the Middle East?

I simply do not know. Do you?

Really, I think all countries know Israel HAS nuclear weapons!

It is appearing to me that the Israeli see the Americans as gullable, and, with the help of the American Israeli Lobby, it is very possible that the U.S. Congress is being manipulated with illogical circular argument and threats like, anti-semitism. I am questioning the credibility of the parties involved.

Okay, may I poll you guys?

Do you think that our U.S. Congress would be so gullable to be swayed by illogical circular argument and other tactics of illogical persuasion, to allow themselves to be manipulated by the American Israeli Lobby?

Do you think that our U.S. Congress would be swayed by any American Israeli Lobby threatening anti-semitism?

Our congress is nothing more than a group of people swayed by ANY lobby. So with that said, all of your questions would be "yes".

Those of you wanting Isreal to turn Iran into a "glass parking lot" think about this: If Iran goes after Israel, and Israel starts lobbing nukes at them, we will ALL suffer for it. Do you think all the fallout will stay in Iran?

JCH, the operative word is that Israel 'perceives' that Iran would attack them. If any nation takes their perception and turns news into spin embedded with illogical arguments, who the hell can conclude anything meaningful out of that. All that I am seeing, so far, is spin embedded with illogic such as sensationalism, emotion, fear, religion, circular argument. Everyone seems to be forecasting fallout when I am seeing only one agressor announcing that the will attack Iran.

JCH, see my post #133.

A pre-emptive strike is NOT defense.... It is offense.

You're basing your assessment that a) they have nukes, and b) they will use them on talk. Nothing but bluster and bravado posturing.

They are also aware that launching nukes means having them launched back at you. You are too eager to push a hypothetical button (from the comfort of your home) that will kill millions of innocent civilians.

Israel is the great aggressor and ethnic cleansor. It has been killing, destroying Palestinian homes, stealing their land and building colonial settlements in the last 62 years.

Robert

Iran has a right to defend itself from Isreal rhetoric.I hope Russia sells Iran some missles that will stopIsreal in thier tracks,and then take most of Isreal's land and give it back to the Palestinians.

Joe,

Maybe you’re right, let Russia send its missiles to defend the Persians expansionist agenda. They have grandiose plans of the old empire!

Robert

Russia has the capability to do it.They also have the capability to send Iran weapons to defend itself against a US attack as well.

Yes, and it was reported recently that Russia admitted that Iran has wanted to purchase a new version of a Russian defense missile and that the Russians had not acted on Iran's request. What do you think? Were the Russians just being politically correct?

Joe,

It is in Russia’s interest to keep the area destabilized, keep America occupied while they advance their agenda.

CORRECT, Joe ! Let's give the Arabs NUKES ! BRILLIANT - for they would NEVER use them against ANYONE but Israel - they would NEVER find their way into Terrorist hands.
This is the funniest post on here !

Robert

Russia does not need the US occupied to destabalize the region or any region for that matter.

Joe,

Russia has and will be a destabilizing force in the world. It would be remarkable if the leadership of that country would for once come down on the side of good, instead of most always evil.

Depends on how you define evil. I think that propping up a racist, warmongering, Zionist state is evil.

Chris, I've never considered Iran to be Zionist, but you're probably right about the other points. /end sarcasm

Maybe it's evil on evil action over there with various heavy weights heavily betting on one side or the other. That might explain the 5,000 year long length of the conflict.

V- Where WERE they before ? They were camel driving desert dwellers.
It was the Soviet Union who armed them, supported them, SIMPLY because the United States had an interest in the region, and needed a puppet state in that region to flex their power. The Soviet Union , at the time, also did not know the extent of their oil reserves.

Russia has sought a warm water port for centuries. They intrigued against the British Empire, and conquered Turkestan. Persia was considered "neutral" ground between the Empire of the Romanov Tsars, and the British Empire. This contest was called "The Great Game," and it has been playing out for a long time. The Russians were stopped at the Afghan border. Rudyard Kipling wrote a famous poem about the British retreat from Afghanistan. Russia was stuck in Central Asia, far from the sea. Vladivostok and Sevastopol would have to serve for a century. Then the USSR broke up, and Russia lost the Crimean peninsula, and a good part of their Navy, to UKraine. Russia the great bear has awakened, and is once again conspiring with Persia, to thwart the British and Americans in Afghanistan. You know, the country adjacent to Iran? And on the other side of Iran is... can you guess? Begins with an "I". Israel is a small pawn in this game.

The only reason that the muslims are blaming them is they are there. If the Jews were wiped out and totally obliterated the muslims would then turn there thoughts to some one else. It is a simple as the bully mentality

So who were the Muslims bullying around BEFORE the creation of Israel by the UN after WWII?

The Christians and the Jews as you seem to have missed the history class where there was a talk about the crusades in the 12 through the 14th century. Jerusalem was constantly at war. Either the Muslims or the Christians were trying to conquer the city. If memory serves me correct it was the Muslims that decided they were the sole owner of the city and did not wish to share it with anyone. Also most Muslim factions were constantly at war with each other. Any other Question?

the christian world, aka all of europe

"blaming the Jews" has now been changed to "blaming the muslims". They are so "evil" they will attack "someone else". Throughout history, oppressed groups when they achieved power, became worst oppressors. The oppressed puritans when they came here wiped out the indians. Just because Jews suffered in the past (like all other groups) it does not mean that they can not become oppressors and it does not justify oppressing others.

WOW..Justice - you have proven that even a broken clock is right twice a day !
Lest we forget - the Koran loves Jews as much as it loves Christians.

jeff

You have NO CLUE about the things that you talk about.you do NOT even know that IRANIANS are PERSIAN and NOT ARAB.this is the simplest thing about ME.

Yet we see comment after comment from you.Iran and Israel have never fought each other.in fact Persians librated the jews from slavery and returned them to israel and rebuilt their temples 2500 years ago.otherwise there would not be any jews living including you jeff.

Iran has not attacked anyone in 300 years and knows very well that israel has 200+ NUKES.mullahas in iran have no death wish because they love power and money too much and know that islam is a BS religon just like any other.it is just a tool of power.

Beside Israel can NOT engage iran in war.(there is a hell to pay for achieving NOTHING).

JOE BIDEN and OBAMA know it very well and this is why JOE said just do it.(LOOOL)

Sirus...I was a political science major and hold an advanced degree in Polysci. Reference is made not geography, but to philosophy.
For you to say that Iran was not part of the wars in 49, 56, 67, and 72 is a testament to your ignorance. These are not my opinions..these are facts...your ignorance is astounding.
The question is not whether Israel can or engage in a war with Iran...it is whether they can afford NOT to.

sirus, the Islamic Republic of Iran took over the army there in 1979. There was a 60% desertion in the ranks and "purged" senior military officials clinging to the previous Phalavi dynasty. Their current leadership has quote after quote stating they want to obliterate the non Islam nations from the map (mostly directed at Israel).

So as for your statement, they are in fact a self declared Islam nation, Cyrus was 539-530BC who allowed the conquered Jews to rebuild their temple - well before they became Islam, and Iran shouldn't be making threats to wipe people off the face of the earth if they really have no "death wish".

Now I'll give you that the leadership does not speak for all of the people there. The demonstrations after the last election speaks volumes about that. However, you can't just make blanket statements about the entire nation and leave out recent threats and missile tests. According to them, they want to ignore the Russians building a nuclear power plant and apparently, put their own in orbit or something with a rocket.

The only thing wrong here is that it's Isreal that's the regional bully not the Iranians or Arabs.

The Russians have already launched a rocket toward Phobos, moon of Mars, containing tough micro-organisms. Who knows what they intended with that act? Don't sleep on Russia. Russia is back.

Freds1369

The Christians and the Jews as you seem to have missed the history class where there was a talk about the crusades in the 12 through the 14th century

You were responding to a question of "who were the muslims bullying"... not "who were they at war with"... Of course Muslims were at war, just as every other culture was. War has been with us, (the glorified monkey men), since the beginning.

But the bullying factor we were talking about... the "playground bully"... if you're going to put Christianity up as the victim, then you are delusional. Entire cultures, religions, billions of bodies, artifacts, and ancient historical wisdom have all been obliterated in the name of Christianity.

As for the Jews in Israel... Imagine being in a bar... you're sitting on a stool... some guy walks in and says... "you're in my seat... I was sitting in it yesterday and have been for years... now you move or I will move you.." And of course when you don't move, him and his friends pummel the crap out of you, and chase you out of the bar.... Now THAT overly simplified analogy for Israel and the Palestinians IS the bully mentality

Any other Question?

Oh I have hundreds of questions... because I come here to exchange information, not just assume that I have all the answers, and condescend to someone else by saying they "must have missed a class"... and the sign off with a snarky "any other question" dooshy comment.

V it is my humble opinion all war is started over the Bully mentality. "You are different than me" or "You have it I want it." either way a fight then war follow-es. Having been the victim of bullies in this world I understand the need to fight back.

I how ever am not saying that the muslims have always been the bullies nor am I advocating the total extermination of them. In every culture in the world there are bullies and victims. unfortunately this is the norm and we as a people will never live in peace until the bully mentality is eradicated. No I do not believe that this is possible this will ever happen. The best I think we can ever hope for is to leave our neighbor alone to do their thing and learn tolerance of them. And no I do not see this happening ether.

Isn't free speech wonderful???

The US has the most powerful military in the world, they are never NOT at war, they continue to TAKE OVER one country after another and have all the nuclear, and airpower to continue their march,,, all the while our society is being shut down in the name of keeping us 'safe' from a bunch of guys running around in secret caves for 8 years and who weren't involved in placing those bombs in the 3 WTC buildings or shooting down the plane in Shanksvill.

................ and you think the Muslims are the bullies here?????????????????

I think the world is full of bullies and victims. Both sides and maybe we all need to understand that.

I think the world is full of bullies and victims. Both sides and maybe we all need to understand that.

Agree!

Arabs do not want peace they want money and power not peace.

Arabs do not want peace they want money and power not peace.

First... Iranians are not Arabs... they are Persians.

And second... I would bet $100 they say the same thing about us.

I stand corrected but my comment stands as true.

Iranians do not want peace only power and money.

Second you would win that bet.

Second you would win that bet.

And they would be correct. All modern govt's seem to be facilitating the chaos that we "need" them to fix. They promise the solutions every election, but things get worse, and then we "need" them more and more.

I think the majority of American people would choose peace, but the American Govt would choose power and money. I think the majority of Iranian people would choose peace... but the Mullahs would choose power and money.

Which only goes to show that our Representatives do not represent us accurately.

I do agree.

Greed, power, and religion... the unholy trinity.

Those defending Israel here are mostly "American" zionists. They care about Israel not America. They do not mind seeing America bleed if it helps the Israelis steal land and build more colonies. It is time for America to have a foreign policy run by those who think of American interests not AIPAC who only cares about the Israeli state.

This may turn out to be the only true justice. It may be that the Israeli have gotton away with apparent use of illogic for so long, that they have lost recognition of self awareness.

I really don't think that Americans are buying it, anymore. Call me anti-semitic? I will tell you that I am looking for the peacemakers.

Do you realize that Israel is only 10 miles wide at one point and is about the size of the smallest US states? Dominate the world, really? Come on now get realistic.

What planet are you on?? I will bet that you do not even know anyone from Israel or even Jewish. That is the only way you could make such a statement.

Hey, Dumbo...I mean, Jimbo:
Do YOU see Israel exporting terrorists to bomb other countries who dont ally with them ? DOMINATE the world ? You and "Justice" take the ignorance prize.

Hey Jimbo, that's a little over the top... Isreal doesn't want to dominate the world they only seek to dominate the media and the worlds money (diamonds anyone?)

Ok Uncle Jack.

PLO Palestine Liberation Organisation (In the beginning "Push Leon Overboard" Leon was the American they pushed overboard in the middle of the ocean) also an organization that was nothing more than terrorist at the start. Yes i would believe anything written by them.

IDF "Israeli Defense Force" What are they going to do when the Hesbala fire rockets into Israel from the gaza strip?? I guess you would have them say "O those poor misunderstood people we should let them murder our women and children it is OK"

Stale mate only works if your opponent loves their children more than they hate you.

Hellno

Russia and China could do it as well.Isreal would not stand a chance against either one of those nations in a war.I am not to sure the US would either.

What about NK, they seem to be doing whatever they want w/o problems. Sanctions are about the equiv of nothing. Same goes for Iran. China can steal our software just fine, Russia can do whatever it wants, along with almost all nuclear armed countries. You really think we could do whatever we want to China?

The US media could be viewed as in the US's pocket, but they DUH, have a vested interest. You think the US controls Chinese media?

Nobody criticizes us? What are you smoking? You sound like one of those conspiracy guys. Do we really go around nuking countries defending their constitution? When did we do that, I don't recall? If we invaded countries to our hearts content, why would we not be in NK already? Iran? Where are all the glass parking lots? Honestly I did not support invading Iraq, and if you want to go after the people who are responsible for it, then we can have a discussion about that.

Obvioulsy the situation is a lot more nuanced than that. Basically you destroyed your own comment. I suggest you try again, next time leave out the crazy.

I am with you Americans For America.

Dale I agree there are many questions and few answers. But only by bring all these questions and comments to light will you be better informed to vote in the next election. Only then will you be able to say "Hay I do not like the way things are going." and then you will be able to vote to make a change. Ignoring the issues will not make them go away. letting the politicians deal with the problem with out our impute will only bring about a dictatorship. I do not delude myself that what is said here will make any difference in the grand scheme of things only that by not saying anything is much worse. In other words do something whether right or wrong at least we tried which is much better than the alternative.

Please stop pouring my tax dollars down the rat hole of Israel.

The most destabilizing entity in the world since its fraudulent inception.

The Radicalized Religious Welfare Jews are an embarrassment to humanity.

OR

We could nuke Israel and put them out of our misery.