We have been pouring more and more money into public education for many years now, and kids keep coming out of the system dumber and dumber. Obviously, money is not the answer.

this is sad...we get rid of teachers and keep the lawyers who are our congressmen and women...which do we need the most....I would say teachers, good ones. As for the money spent on education...most likely the problem there is the number of greedy people that have been pciked to run it. Administration cost far exceed the actual cost going into the actual education of our kids....The very people running these programs feel they are worth more than the teachers....and the sad part is they do even a worse job than some of the worse teachers do. If we are to cut funding , it should be started with the administration cost ...not with teachers.

As a teacher and a Mom, I've been interested in the question of class size vs eduational outcome for many years. When I was PTA President at our highschool while taking a hiatus from teaching to raise four sons through their teen years, we were regailed once again by the teacher's union to get out the vote for higher teacher's salaries and smaller class sizes. We were told we needed to raise the money so we could compete with Japan. Then I learned that Japanese class sizes were in the 40's as an average at that time. Teachers were greatly respected and were paid pretty well.

This got me wondering. I had taught right out of college in a district where levies for schools had failed about three times in a row. I had 45 ninth graders in my smallest class and similar numbers of Seniors, Juniors and Freshmen in other classes.. A nightmare one might say! It was a joy (all except for correcting papers which real teachers still did then). The school was in a rather small community. The students were from conservative homes where responsibilities were stressed far above rights. The kids came to learn and were respectful to teachers and other students. I would have worked there for free if I wasn't putting my husband through school.

I feel that it isn't class size as much as the melt down in our society which brings kids to the classroom stoned and beligerant or so in love with their rights that parents stick up for the kid if the teacher disciplines them that renders a class "too large" if it is over 32 at the secondary level and 23 at the primary level.

I teach at the secondary level and do grant that especially the first three grades do need smaller class size so the teacher can monitor the progress on precious reading, writing and math basics. At the secondary level if students come from decent homes that stress responsibility there is no need for tiny classes--indeed I found my larger classes enabled me to do unique and interesting things with groups within the class rotating responsibilities and preparations.

Nicely put Juno.

Children need to be taught responsibility and respect at home. A teacher's job is to teach a subject not manners.

"All the research suggests the number of kids is much less important than who is teaching the class,"

That's the real key, but, unfortunately, teacher's unions want the bad teachers kept and paid the same regardless of performance.

Too bad evaluations of teachers and merit pay are off-limits in grade and high school.

It sounds like a good time for states to reconsider school vouchers. If we gave vouchers to parents for 75% of what it costs for the state to educate a child, it would reduce class sizes and the states could apply the remaining 25% to close budget shortfalls.

Other than Ginger's moronic statement, the preceding posts all identify key elements of the public education problem. If you folks can realize these things, I wonder why our leaders can't.

With all due respect - Give me a break! My generation had THIRTY kids in our (public)elementary school classes and we all ended up going on to college, no worse for the wear. Smaller class sizes have become a necessity because parents are not doing their jobs. I learned how to read during the summer before first grade, and it only took my mother, what, 20-30 minutes each night before bed to teach me? I never remember an incident where the teacher did not have complete control over the classroom or where we did not sit in our seats and do what was asked of us. Maybe it was because our parents had instilled in us how valuable an education was and that elementary school would lead to bigger and better things for us? We need to stop treating education like an untouchable sacred cow and start asking hard questions and demanding more of our school boards, administrators, teachers, parents and students. I'd also like to know why it is that Catholic private schools can educate a child for far less than the public schools and produce a far superior product with less money?

Korea spens about half as much per student as the United States, and yet their student scores are far better than the United States.

Are their students smarter than ours, or do they just have a much better education system? I suspect that the latter is the truth.

I think the real crux of the problem is as follows;

1 - Teacher's unions that reward mediocrity and fight performance standards.

2 - School administrators that fail to require disciplined behavior in classrooms.

Right on, Golfermom; my grade school classes all had at least 60 kids!

Kid's minds are like sponges, they will absorb anything put in front of them. The amount of kids in the class is really not the problem if you have an engaging teacher. 3rd grade is the most important year in your child's education, they will learn the basics of everything they will ever learn during that 3rd grade year. The 3rd grade year should have extra teachers to ensure kids a solid base for their continuing education.

It really is very simple for parents to help in their child's education.............books, reading and more reading. Ask your kids, "Tell me what you know about.........?" If you have never done this it will amaze you. You'll learn what your child's interests are, what they don't like. Reading is to all educational subjects, like running is to all sports.

Bottom line is don't depend on teachers for your child's education, they are your children, you as a parent will be the best teacher for your child. Make sure they are getting the most out of their education especially in the 3rd grade. I have had teachers tell me that they need medication during therapy sessions, to get through their day. Teachers have also told me kids need Ritalin because they can't control them. I feel bad that kids have to put up with these teachers! Teachers chose this profession..........I ask all the time......Why?

Quote from article:

"Recession forces districts to lay off teachers, despite stimulus dollars"

Is this a joke? The $24 Trillion in stimulus went to the bankers that caused the crisis, education didnt get one red cent. What in God's name is wrong with the mainstream media? They spit out lie after lie after lie after lie after lie after lie and people continue to believe what they say? Wake up people.

I do not blame the teachers at all!! I blame the Administration, the high salary people in charge of the schools, Superintendants, Principles Etc. The school system has become a Big Business run by Educated Thieves! The ones that are supposidly running the schools are the ones making the money!!
I live in Ohio and the county I live in has 4 different High schools. Each school has one Superintendant, making over $150,000 a year and each segment of the school, High, Middle and Lower schools, each with a principle. Which make over $80 each and some may even have assistant priciples. Now figure this up, money wise. That is almost a half million dollars, per school system, just for administration costs. Now take that times 4 School systems! 2 Million dollars and that is just for one county!! Where does the money come to pay them? U.S. the working Tax payer!!! Now with so many people unemployed, Less Tax Payers, where are they going to come up the money to pay for the schools??? Increase the Taxes on the people that are left working??!! PROBABLY!!

You can tell by the post on this article and many others that the Republicans have the answers.... more weapons programs, more tax breaks for the corporations, less Government regulation on the financial institutions. less teacher pay, more kids in the class room, smaller wage scale, I believe Shelby and Corker think we should compete with the Chinese and India's wage scale at least that whats they were telling the American auto worker. Oh yea and "drill baby drill" while the Chinese are investing billions in alternative energy programs ...they want to be the leading nation in alternate energy exports. Hey another eight years of their policy(and the conservative Demo's) we will be in "MAD MAX" land.

palso; "the Chinese are investing billions in alternative energy programs"

Is that in some alternative universe?

The Chinese are building 75% of all of the dirty coal plants in the world right now - why, because it's a lot cheaper than any other energy source.

Any "Alternative energy programs" they develop will be to sell components to the U S because we're dumb enough to spend 3 times as much using them.

Boo Hoo Boo Hoo

When I grew up, we educated children far better with less money and much larger class sizes . The teacher taught everyone even with plenty of immigrants that spoken almost no English when they joined our classes. You leftists have to get a clue. Your programs fail because they are bad programs NOT BECAUSE YOU HAVEN"T SPENT ENOUGH MONEY ON THEM!

ROY WILSON-336103

The Chinese just left a energy conference where some phoenix officials were at, and the officials from the cheap labor no education state were impressed with the Chinese energy ready programs the Chinese have... yes they are building coal plants but they also know the lobbyist for coal and oil industries will get the conservative Dem's and Republicans to kill any efforts for this nation to progress into the economic future and will leave the market open for them and a few nations with foresight into the economic future.

p.s. I believe they put 100 billion into alternate energy in their stimulus.

scarab333

who are you going to blame next for are lack of commitment to education when you get tired of blaming Illegals ? why are you so afraid of speaking more than one language, half the nations in the world speak multi language's, I see it as a benefit.

When my husband started school he did not speak English. There was not the BS English immersion classes. Guess what? Today he speaks perfect English, no accent, and is an award winning architect.

Ditch immersion classes, stop employing illegals and spending USA resources on them and watch the USA become a better place.

Anyone who thinks we ought to bow to the ugly illegal problem should go to Mexico and help them there. Put your money where your mouth is and take it out of your pocket, not mine or my kids pocket.

I teach in a multi-lingual 1st grade classroom here in California. There's nothing wrong with being multi-lingual but it takes a while to achieve academic (cognitive) proficiency. People don't seem to realize this. A major setback to my room are students that come with no social skills. They have no respect for the teacher, the campus, no conflict management skills. There are no parents at home to help with homwork or teach these things to their children for WHATEVER reason.

Let's talk performance pay...I'm teaching children who are just learning to speak English and you want to base MY pay on thier test scores when they have to compete with English only white kids from Montanna or Iowa? FYI every test is given in English whether or not the child understands. Can you guess which students have the advantage and therefore which teachers will get the better pay?

If we are going back to larger classrooms, then we need to go BACK to stronger discipline of years gone by. The Teachers should not have to waste their time on crowd control. Parents need to teach appropriate school discipline to their children. (Incidentally, if more discipline was taught at home, the home experience would be less chaotic as well.)

We could also rely on teachers applying discipline as they did in the past. Perhaps we need an affirmative action program for men to achieve equal outcome by sex, thus filling the K-12 teacher ranks with an equal number of males and females.

Where I live (Washington state), and where my grandkids go to school, the teacher's unions are messing things up. Every year -- and I do mean every year -- one district (or more) or another is threatening to strike, and the strikes go on longer and longer. But what they teach in school is worse: they are teaching students a new method of math, even though there was nothing wrong with the old method, and as a result parents (or grandparents) can't help their kids with math because it's not the way they learned it, and the teachers insist that the kids do it their way! Who is getting paid to dream up this nonsense?

But it comes down to the parents, who are all taxpayers, and who always vote to cut taxes...as if there's some other way to pay for things like roads, schools, etc. Worse, here we have this goof, who I'll only refer to by his initials (T.E.), who puts some initiative on the ballot to lower taxes...and inevitably people vore for it, then wonder why there's no money in the state budget to properly fund anything. He's also a tax cheat (my wife used to work for his in-laws, so I have inside information), but no one seems to mind.

Look...taxes are a fundamental part of a free society; without them there are no roads, no teachers, no military...nothing. The sooner people realize that the better...and for those of you who vote to cut taxes then wonder why your kid's school budget is being cut...you have no right to complain, because you are part of the problem!

palco;

Alternative energy currently costs about 3 times as much per KWH as coal fired plants (hence the "cap & trade" push to charge U S consumers for carbon fees - to make coal 3 times as costly to use), so any development of alternative energy by the Chinese will almost certainly be to provide components to export to other countries. They want to provide the tools for us to cut our own throats on economic issues, but even though China emits more carbon than we do, they have no interest in cutting back - indeed, they will double their emissions within 8 years.

DG I'm from Washington too. You are right. The WEA is the public enemy of our children and their education in any useful pursuit. They do great with silence day for gays, lots of liberal gibberish on all sorts of issues etc. But then we do live in the Soviet of Washington where education is truly a joke!

Roy,

China and India virtually laughed in Obama's face when he suggested a pact to use less fossil fuels. They are building their economies, their nations and, in the case of China, their war machine while we sit here literally "tilting at windmills" that cannot and will not ever ever be as efficient as the combustion engine.

ROY WILSON-336103

There is no argument the Chinese and India are polluting a at a disaster- est rate as we have done and are still doing although we are making small strides, That is not what I was getting at, the point is whether anyone else does or does not should not bear on the U.S. making intelligent decisions on what we do for our economy and our environment, especially when we know the outcome of doing nothing.

juno-932501

Their war machine???? we spend more on defense spending in a fiscal year then all the nations in the world combined spend in a fiscal year. and that includes Russia and China. Put things in perspective.

ROY WILSON-336103

Sorry I left out response to your statement on price of alternative energy, yes at the present time it is more expensive because of the limited use, expand usage and prices will go down, and solar in particular will be dramatically cheaper unless we allow the utilities to charge us for the sun?? in this present world I would not be surprised. why would we keep building coal plants and pour more carbon in the air and destroy land when we can use solar for lighting,TV's and smaller appliance's and put no pollution in the air or destruction to the land, its not logical.

The Entire Education system needs an Overhaul, Currently Citizens can earn a high school diploma from home off the Internet only price needed is the software which provides the instruction and off the internet a test can be administered and returned for grading off the database. In home schooling without a parent or watchdog is the next step. Honestly I can get a college degree from home the only difference with children is I'm expected to pay taxes too. Like Einstein said what's the purpose of memorization when you can write the formula down for safe keeping. The most Intellegent kids are the crooks and thieves who eventually run for politics..Unfortunate!

palco-

Where in my comment did I blame the illegals?! I said when I grew up the teacher taught everyone in the much larger classes including the immigrants that could not speak English.

However, those immigrants were actually legal. If we find illegals in our classrooms, I do fully support deportation of those children and their families.

scarab333

My apologies, I did misread you post and thought you were blaming Illegals for our education shortcomings.

Let's cut the salaries and benefit packages of our senators and congressmen. Our school district is using "stimulus money" for the next two years. This use did not create any new jobs, but eliminated some. Where is the "stimulus"? The government needs to get smaller, not bigger!

No increased government mandates and intervention that limits actual teaching time reduces test scores.

gimmeabreakoradrink- totally agreed! When I tried to apply for a position in our school district earlier this year, the salary they posted was insane. I never knew those school administrators earn that much money (6 figures, Yap!) Of course, I never got that job due to budget cut (across the board job cut). Teachers who actually teach got laid off, and those 6-figures-earning head of administrators get to keep their jobs....Now that makes sense!? NOT.

gimmeabreakoradrink-1132383

I do agree that tenure is HORRIBLE in school systems. If you're a crap teacher, including if you're 54 and went to college back in the 1970s, if you're a doorknob, you need to get canned.

Finally someone who gets it.. Well said Gimme.

Tenure is just proof that Unions destroy quality!

When I went to high school we had 1 principal, 1 asst principal and 2 counsellors. They now have 2 principals, 4 asst principals and 6 councellors. Gee.. I wonder why we don't have enough teachers and have to increase class sizes.

Thomas Paine - That post was very inciteful and you are correct. I am a teacher on the cusp of retirement and believe me if they could find enough money to offer me a buy-out I would take it in a New York minute. The caliber of teacher coming out of college these days is embarrassing at best. I wish I were young enough to start a new career. I rue the day I stepped into the public school classroom. I am hoping to go to another country in about two years or less to teach my subject. I am also hoping that the experience will be better than what I've experienced in the US. I'm sorry - I did my best with what I was given. I can't teach social skills/manners, hygiene, and my subject area too and put up with the abuse from parents. I don't kow who's getting all the money being dumped into our public schools, but it sure isn't reflected in my paycheck. This year will be our district's third year without teacher raises. Since you only gave two reasons for teaching - I must "suck" - because I sure don't love the job anymore. Sigh*

Sues-343312 wrote "Thomas Paine - That post was very inciteful and you are correct."

Inciteful? That's not a typographical error. We can overlook spell-checking and missed punctuation (as in the above sentence) because posters write these messages in haste. Almost every one of your sentences beings with "I". Unless you're a gym teacher, you do suck.

Ian, Ian, Ian - Sorry lamb - I was posting in re: to T. Paine. Apparently you have a limited vocab - sorry about that too. Allow me to help in definition of my use of inciteful. incite: verb, meaning to stimulate into action, to stir up, to urge into action, i.e., inciting a riot. I was applauding Paine for inciting thought to a thought provoking article. Sometimes Ian dear you have to think outside the box and get creative with words - even make some up sometimes. That's how many, many words make it into the Oxford you know.

I believe your limited vocabulary allowed your linear thought to see the word spelled incorrectly as you most likely thought I spelled it incorrectly. You most likely thought I meant insightful, an adjective meaning discernment, ability to understand people or things, emphasize the power to make accurate judgements (and by the way judgement can be spelled with or without the 'e' after g - which by the way was not my intended word. Poor Ian - you must be a product of some sucky teacher. Maybe you should have paid more attention in class when you had the chance. Or are you really twelve?

Oh and yes - you are so right many of my sentences begin with 'I" and rightly so - it's all about me. I was posting my thoughts. Do yourself a favor and invest in a good dictionary or at least a thesaurus. They are cheap enough or free in the library. But your reply to me proves you did read my post. So thanks. Now go study and improve your vocabualry silly boy.

Sues-343312

You may find teaching in another country rejuvenating and may feel young again to have student's who crave for knowledge, you right about money, teachers sure don't see the money, we are not a nation of philosophy or books or seeking knowledge, are hero's are sports figures and soldiers and people of wealth, and the poster Ian bore out your comment about manners, Can't say about his hygiene.

Sues-343312,

Inciteful isn't a word in the English language. Check any dictionary if you like. You can campaign to have your derivative added to the dictionary

Ian

Ian Blokesworth

Ian its a common usage word, use it myself, weather or not its in the dictionary, call it creative usage word.

Teachers should have an exemplary command of the language. Sues-343312 demonstrates that she can roll in the mud with the best of the ill-mannered, unhygienic new generation.

Ah Ian, Ian, Ian - once again you prove your own inadequacies and further add to your self inflicted embarrassment. Please refer to your post of 4:53 AM EDT. Weather or not????? Explain that one young man! I think in your emotionally steam driven repartee you meant whether - am I correct? Never mind - I am. And by the way young man, just what were you doing up posting during the wee hours of the morning. You should be asleep! Let some other muscle in your body besides your silly little sphincter gear up for the new day you little twit.

As for our banter, it's over. You win little man/boy. I won't try to squeeze anymore blood from your turnipness. As for my command of language - you'll have to check with my publisher for that one dear. Have a lovely day. Stay awake now.

"Weather or not????? Explain that one young man!"

palco is the author.

Sues-343312, for one to be inciteful, one must have incite. Do you notice the error in that sentence ? Incite is a verb. Incite is not a noun. Ask your publisher, but first, check the dictionary. Perhaps the day will come when incite will be a noun and then a legitimate adjective. If I'm wrong about the word incite, I'll write a full apology.

Yawn

Anyone with a respectable vocabulary would notice that "inciteful" isn't an adjective because 'incite' is not a noun. It is listed in the dictionary only as a verb. A good school teacher should know the difference. All of your comments about sphincters, time zones, twits, etc. are unable to cover up that you were corrected by someone with the vocabulary of a twelve year-old.

I picked on you because your first paragraph described yourself as a disgruntled teacher that looked down on her students. Such teachers bother me as they occupy the influential position of molding young minds. The teaching profession is more about prestige and much less about money. Teacher pay is about the same as that for garbage collectors. Both are important occupations, but only one of those occupations is prestigious.

Get politically correct money wasters like anything about women's issues or gay rights or black studies out of the system and cut teacher prep days (I'm a teacher). Teachers are out of school in most areas at 3 or 4 PM. They (we) have plenty of time to prepare on their own time and should give those days back to the students. No ESL classes. We put some of our own kids in this district in "Spanish Immersion" classes precisely because kids learn the language naturally when that is all they hear spoken. Separate classes for non-English speakers wastes money and also isolates them from inclusion in the school social scene with Americans and gives a 'separatist" feeling instead of a feeling of unity.

Get rid of teacher's unions. They have ruined the excitement. One science teacher at our school was holding a science club/remedial tutoring together after school on his own time. The union came down on him hard for spending more than his contracted "contact time" (like they are germs) time with students claiming he was setting a bad example and other teachers might be "expected" to actually take an interest in kids.

Our state laws strictly prohibit political views being expressed by teachers, yet our liberal teachers are hell bent on wasting precious class time indoctrinating students in such non-scientific ideas as global warming (could be mentioned as a theory only if the other side--like the oceans have cooled for three years running--are presented) and class warfare or abortion rights. These are issues that should be left to the parents and home. Time wasters we are paying for when our kids can barely read and write or do math (what's that).

Political correctness, the NEA and local unions with their Socialist agenda, students from homes where they are not prepared to be respectful and studious etc. are the real enemies of public education today. Clear away the clutter and encourage teachers to get back to the three R's. We'll see a lot of beautiful kids happy to be back in a discliplined classroom where they can learn what they will need to compete in this ever more competitive world economy.

Juno you should run for office!

I think Ginger is a Socialist!

Ginger is right. You don't get something for nothing, and education is not cheap.

Ginger after reading your post three times, all i can get from i is: republicans are bad.

Very well, if you say so. I would like to point out one thing, When the question, "How do we pay for this?' is asked.

'But we need it", is not a valid answer.

So SB,

You are saying that Banks and corporate CEO's are to blame for our education problems. Could you explain just how that is? I know that in the state of California 85 percent of the money the states allocates for education is taken up in teachers salaries and benefits. So why not give the teachers the 15 percent and spend the 85 percent in the class room on students.

We already spend more money per student than any country in the world. Obviously, money is not the problem. As far as classroom size and results...Japan, China and Korea consistently score higher on exams, but their average classroom size exceeds 40 students.

The difference is simple. Parents (in some communities) have no respect for teachers and do nothing to reinforce what is being taught in the classroom. Their collective lack of respect is passed on to their child. The child, in turn, becomes disruptive causing more students to be impacted. Teachers are not allowed to hold students accountable for their work so there are no consequences to their actions. The disrespectful student is promoted to the next grade to avoid any potential litigation that may arise. That is what's wrong with our education system.

Does tenure and union contracts have their negative contributions? Absolutely. But not nearly as much as the lack of respect shown for the teaching profession.

Not everyone gets to go to school in China. It's a priveleg to attend allowed for the few. There is the incentive to behave, study, respect and learn. If not, you're out and will suffter the wrath of your parents and other family and community members. Not so here in the USA. Our public schools take every one from every walk of life. Can't you see the difference here? If we could pick and choose I think we'd rank up there with everyone else.

The reason we're adding more principals, vice principals etc.. is because we're not building new schools. We're cramming more and more into the same space. Why don't we deal with the obvious for starters.

Oh, and don't tell me any school administrator is worth $400,000 a yr. Let THEM take a pay cut.

Ginger-282503 wrote "yeah, women should just be kept in the house and behind the scenes and pregnant"

Not entirely. 50% of the K-12 teachers should be men. How about an affirmative action program for male teachers?

Socialism has no place in the schools and women's issues, gay issues, black issues etc. are smothering out the three R's. We have to compete in a world where the above have no place and social entineering has never been an appropriate goal of school beyond an insistence that all teachers and students show respect for one another "or else."

I also agree that if it can be done 50% of teachers need to be men. Also 50% need to be women. There is a difference in the way men relate to a class than women. Men are especially needed as role models at the elementary level. Also, it has been my experience (and it is statistically proven) that women lean left more than men and tend to drag their liberal gibberish baggage into the classroom (here in Washington State that would be illegally--can't legally use one minute of a teacher's time or one paper clip).

Ginger-282503

Enjoyed your posts..keep it up

Here, here, Juno. You have my vote.

Not entirely. 50% of the K-12 teachers should be men. How about an affirmative action program for male teachers?

There is an affirmative action program in place for male teachers. They are given hiring preference over equally qualified women. The reason that there are so few men in the profession has to do with the lack of prestige and the salary. The college level has more men because the pay is better and there is more status association with the position.

The Independent-1237578

How many school systems are laying off teachers building new facilities or renovating existing facilities? How many administrators/central office workers have been added to the payroll? What salary increases have superintendents been given while classrooms are bulging?

This the same in Florida.

You have maintenance and janitors making over 20 per hour just because they are union. The overhead for running schools are out of control. It seems to be more importantto increase the overhead with Administrator and lower support people than getting the teacher a job.

Another problem is the waste is off the chart.....It's not a money problem it a waste problem..They have plenty of funds coming in.

Where I live, school boards are pressured by tax paying parents to build new schools because the community maybe 20 miles away just had a new school built and they want one for their children too. There have been at least 5 new elementary schools built in about as many years. These parents have threatened lawsuits to get what they want. It's great to have the best school ever for children, but it seems it would have been more cost efficient to build maybe one or two larger elementary schools instead of 5.

I also believe that teacher's unions waste more educational money than you'll ever see spent for education of children.

Harsh but true. Parents should spend more time with their children, coaching them whenever they need it. I do find that children whose parents spend time with them on homework do better in class. I guess we are in a real dilemma here. Most of my neighbors (a middle class majorly while community) both parents work and a lot of them have to get a second job these days due to the pay cut. I am sure it's still possible (but not easy) to allocate some time for their children. My kids go to private school and their class size is shrinking because a lot of parents could not afford the tuition any more. I am not super rich but I am willing to invest in my children's future anyway I can. My kids are getting first class education because I can still do it, but in the meantime children who attend public schools will fall even more behind after our state's infamous budget cut. Here's when we have to re-examine the effect of Capitalism (I know I will be clobbered by saying this). Face it! When it comes to education, kids from wealthy familes will always have the advantage, while the rest are at the mercy of our government's competency. I wanted my kids to attend public school like their friends do, but I had to do what I had to do. When the California legislature figures out their priority and our public school system gets back on its feet, I will send my children to public school in a heartbeat.

In florida we have size limits on class room size and it did not help anything.

Parents are the key. I'm a teacher and a mom. It is easy to see which kids come from good homes with parents who support them in doing their homework. My own kids said they learned a lot more from me (in the evenings doing homework at family homework evenings) than they ever learned in school. That isn't saying a lot for me, but really is a commentary on the quality or lack therof of instruction.

Parents read to your kids. Make sure they know their letters and numbers before they go to school. I never wanted to trust the school with the most important issue of learning to read well, so I taught all of my children to read pretty darn well before they went to kindergarten. It has paid off big time because without the fundamentals kids can't ever come out of the other end of the educational tube doing well.

Parents are the anti-drug and the pro-education.

You know what's even sadder? I learned from my sister who is married to a Japanese and lives in Tokyo. She told me the best schools in Japan are all public schools funded by their government. Only kids who can't make it in public school go to private school. They consider private school kids are "loser kids". The Japanese students rank top 5 in every academic category (science, math, literature, etc) according to the UN data.

And over here, it's the opposite! How SAD is that? Our government is obviously doing something wrong with our education. I'm a stay-at-home parent. I spend a lot of time with my children on their homework. I go over the subject(s) they have difficulty with. I read to them before bedtime. I set up a routine for my kids during the summer- my kids are required to read 2 chapter books a week. Finish one math quiz a day thru their school's Accelerate Math program on their computer. I do not rely solely on school to educate my kids, but I do think the government should do a lot more to shape up our education system.

My own kids said they learned a lot more from me (in the evenings doing homework at family homework evenings) than they ever learned in school.

That's because most kids want to empress their parents if they give them the chance.And so many parent think school can teach their kids everything without their help.

School has become more of a daycare than a school...

Yes and Obama is in full support of the Unions! Do you see the direction Obama is taking America? Into Communisum!!

cp----Totally agree!

Teacher unions should be made illegal for the good of our kids! The Marxist NEA-- Another reason to make sure this President looses on healthcare as that will pretty much finish him off and make him a lame duck for the rest of his presidency.

He deserves it since he is a racist making inane comments toward policemen (including a black--sure he didn'tk now abut the black guy) who arrested his arrogant Harvard Professor buddy for Acting Out!

Then there was the inappropriate way he was staring at the butt of that young pretty girl young enough to be his daughter. This guy is a really disgusting guy with the same Marxist agenda as the teachers (and other) unions.

Clark County NV schools spend as much or more per student than any other district in the country-Las Vegas gambling funded--yet they have one of the lowest highschool graduation rates in the country. Money is necessary to a point, but it is not the ingredient that is most needed today.

Juno, I bet that you are another one of those clueless birthers, aren't you?

I agree and teachers should be allowed to stomp the crap out of any kid that interrupts. And if the kid's parents complain the other parents ought to go to their house and stomp the crap out of them. And if the kid continues to be a problem the parents have to come to class and sit next to them until they behave.

I agree and teachers should be allowed to stomp the crap out of any kid that interrupts. And if the kid's parents complain the other parents ought to go to their house and stomp the crap out of them. And if the kid continues to be a problem the parents have to come to class and sit next to them until they behave.

LOL! You made some classic comment here! I like it.

Ginger, your lack of facts, is showing.

Ginger,

You do not recognize written caricature?

Ginger-282503 wrote "must be in Texas "stomp the crap" well, hell why not just bring an AK47 to class or since you are in CA, get some steroid -pumped nutcase with a nazi accent to wave a huge @$ knife at the"

No, that would affect the development of their self-esteem, which is the current product of the American school system.

That's much better than having people without kids in school dole out the money isn't it? I bet if parents had to pay for their kids education they'd start demanding better results real quick.

"The population in this country has exploded over the last 25 years and our schools are forced to do more with less."

To add some numbers, the growth has been about 1% annually, with the growth supplied by immigration. In 1975, the population was closer to 200M. Today, it's close to 300M.

House owners, and thus parents, do already pay for education with property taxes.

The amount of money spent on education has very little correlation to the performance of students. The state of California pours billions into education, and yet the state is almost last in test scores. In my opinion, our American culture is what holds so many of our students back. I do not mean to sterotype or profile, but kids that come from a cultural background that values disicipline and education like the Koreans, Chinese, and Japanese tend to have better test scores and greater success in school.

but kids that come from a cultural background that values discipline and education like the Koreans, Chinese, and Japanese tend to have better test scores and greater success in school.

It's that the parents make their kids study and stress the importance of an education. A lot of the Americans parent don't make the time and really don't care until their kid get an F , than it the teachers fault....We should learn from the above culture and figure it out.

Mister and ebookout are so right. I attended school in a district that was so poor (failed levies) that we had to learn to write on newspapers. Our classes were large and absolutely perfectly disciplined. What? We all came from homes where we were fed on a constant diet of expectations. We knew that if the teacher disciplined us we would be sent home to a further punishment or even worse that we would disappoint our parents whom we loved and respected.

I looked at a picture of my third grade class. We know our teacher loved us too (she had a third grade reunion for us with steaks on the barby last summer before she passed on). Every single kid has made something of themselves though our education was "on the cheap" financially, it was priceless as a lesson in love, cooperation.

We knew that if the teacher disciplined us we would be sent home to a further punishment or even worse that we would disappoint our parents whom we loved and respected.

Juno you are not lying on this statement , If i got called down by a teacher you better believe my problem was just beginning. But now it's called child abuse for just getting your back side lit up..Funny thing is I learned fast what not to do and I learned respect for people. And I didn't turn out being a killer.....So much for the child abuse.

but kids that come from a cultural background that values disicipline and education like the Koreans, Chinese, and Japanese tend to have better test scores and greater success in school.

Guilty! I am a Chinese descent. My parents and grandparent always taught us that education is the most important investment you can make. People can take away your belongings and possession, but education is one thing no one can take away from you.

I wish more parents stressed the importance of a good education. I can't even send school work home to be finished because it comes back in the parent's handwriting. They even write me a note to tell me they did it! Now, what does that teach their child? It's very frustrating as an educator.

Also, someone commented on the teacher's job is to teach and the parent's job is to teach morals, values, and responsibility. Wouldn't that be nice if it worked that way? In the real world not all parents do and so teachers must take on that additional role or at least role model what being responsible, etc. is. Few parents seem to have much interest in their children's education. Sad, but true! That doesn't mean they don't love them or care about them. It just means they're not being responsible for their child's education like they should.

You are absolutely right.  I am a high school teacher, and I have a son in high school and daughter in 6th grade this fall.  My daughter was learning basic geometry in her math class at the end of her fifth grade year!  She was also introduced to some algebra.  I didn't know anything about geometry until I took the class my sophomore year of high school (20 years ago).  

I can't even send school work home to be finished because it comes back in the parent's handwriting. They even write me a note to tell me they did it! Now, what does that teach their child? It's very frustrating as an educator.

I know this is frustrating, but I can remember my son's 4th and 5th grade years in elementary school. There were probably 3 nights a week where he would have 2-3 hours of homework to do. He had different teachers for each subject taught. I went to the teachers because I figured he was goofing in class and just not getting it done during school. He was not. The teachers told me they were getting as much done as they could and whatever was not done by the end of the day went home as homework. It was completely ridiculous. And after working 8-10 hour days in my own classroom, the last thing I wanted to do was come home and have to do 2-3 more hours of homework with my son. Most of the time he didn't know what he was even supposed to do because they had rushed through it so quickly in class. The expectation that a 9 year old should do that much homework 3-4 nights a week is just unrealistic.

My point being... too much homework can be overwhelming, especially when parents have worked all day and have come home to cook dinner, clean house, get things ready for tomorrow, etc. on top of hours of homework. As teachers, we probably handle this well with our own children, afterall, that is what we are trained to do. But I can see the frustration in parents who are not also teachers. If the parents are resorting to doing the child's homework for them, maybe there is too much homework assigned.

I'm not criticizing your teaching.. I don't know you. I don't know how much homework your students have each night. I'm just telling you why I would consider doing my child's homework. Fortunately, we made a different choice. We devoted one to 1.5 hours for homework each night. What my son completed in that time was what he turned in. The sad part is.. my son didn't learn much in those two years except that he hated school. Fortunately, in the years that followed, he had teachers that realized giving hours of homework each night was not teaching!

If you have parents that are just doing it for no other reason than they just think it is quicker and less stress on them to do it then that is just crazy.

Gee, maybe the $100K+ a year professors at university should be force to lecture for more than the 4 hours a week, 30 weeks a year, that they do.

(a) I don't have kids

(b) professors don't have to deal with students at all. They have TAs for that.

cp, I feel that there are a couple of flaws in your comment to Maximum:

1) A professors job is more than just teaching. They also have to research in their field and produce results. Given that many professors teach, research, and are active members both in the university community as well as the community of their discipline, time is a precious resource. I personally work from 9am until 10 or 11pm on weekdays, with one weekend day spent casually working, on my teaching and research responsibilities.

2) Being in academia, I don't know of many professors earning more than $55K a year outside of business, law, and medicine.

3) At my alma mater, most professors didn't have TAs because there wasn't enough funding for them.

Good God.. When did YOU attend school?

I think your comment is outdated. Most states require students to pass state exams to graduate. Teachers are not allowed to just "push" kids through until graduation. The skills taught by teachers in my state have to be documented each week as they are taught.

Will you give it a rest? We hear that on a daily basis. We have thrown money at schools in boxcar loads and it has done a thing.

I went to a one school house for 2.5 years 8 grades in one large room 76 students and one teacher. A wood burning stove I was one of 4 assigned to get there early and bring wood in the building, It used a lot, be cause of the knotholes in th walls.

After Christmas of 1950, my parents moved to the second largest city in Illinois.

Beautiful school with all the modern advantages, I spent the next year being a pain in the butt to my teachers, waiting for the class, to catch up to me.

I repeat from my experiences as both a child in school in a district that was very poor and as a teacher in a district where the levies had failed and failed that class size and great buildings do not an education make. I had a great education even though we had to learn to write on newspapers. I taught in highschools with 45 kids or more per class and got top ratings for what my students were learning. The quality of education is largely based on the quality of kids sent to the schools--respectful and there to learn--and the quality of the teachers.

My youngest son had just had it with some very poor experiences with teachers at middle school boring he and the other kids who had come out of an accelerated elementary school into the middles school with no such program. Being bored they had been a little too chatty (which I let him know was not acceptable), however hsi comment was telling. "Mom, when they are hiring teachers there is one question they should ask--'Do you like children.'" It is true--teachers who talk about their contractual "contact time" with children as something to dread need to have themselves and their unions drummed out of the system.

Will you give it a rest? We hear that on a daily basis. We have thrown money at schools in boxcar loads and it has done a thing.

I went to a one school house for 2.5 years 8 grades in one large room 76 students and one teacher. A wood burning stove I was one of 4 assigned to get there early and bring wood in the building, It used a lot, be cause of the knotholes in th walls.

After Christmas of 1950, my parents moved to the second largest city in Illinois.

Beautiful school with all the modern advantages, I spent the next year being a pain in the butt to my teachers, waiting for the class, to catch up to me.

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In the 1950s you respected your teacher, sat there with your mouth closed, or got your @$$ whipped by the teacher and then again at home by your parents. In the 1950s.. you didn't have No Child Left Behind on the plate... you either learned it or you didn't! And if you didn't.. that was your problem.. not the teachers.. In the 1950s.. most kids had a dad and a mother at home to raise them.. not living in a society where the divorce rate is at 50%. In the 1950s... teachers didn't have to teach 250 different objectives that the kids were going to have to pass on a state exam. In the 1950s, you didn't have to pass 5 of the 7 state tests to graduate high school. If you were lucky enough to do well in school and your parents had some money you went on to college... if you didn't .. you got a blue collar job somewhere, got married, and started a family. The moral standards are down, the kids are from broken-homes, many kids are working jobs to help out in their broken homes (so their education takes a back seat).. the list of the moral and educational breakdowns in the education system could go on and on..
Get out of the 1950s.. I'm pretty sure you are aware that schools are not like that anymore.....

John

Can't say about other states but in Florida all kids are allowed to go to school without checking even if they are legal or not. They only need a birth certificate legal or not. They are also entitled to free meals... Guess how many our schools have. ?

And on top of that we have to print instructions in Spanish just so the parent can understand what going on..Figure the cost just on that.. And we want go into having teachers get certified in Spanish so they can teach the kids who don't have English skills.

You want to know why your cost is going up..?

Practically, even the children of illegal aliens are paid for by the landlord's property taxes. The inequity results when too many children live in one house.

No one wants children to go hungry, but subsidized (often free) school meals teach parents that they do not need to be responsible to feed their children while freeing up money for more important vices such as booze, cigarettes and cable TV.

"One thing that the government has shown is that if they "dumb down the population""

Of course, along with the ruling class they want people to think like they do. Capitalism is ok no matter how you get your money! Lie, cheat, steal, rinse, repeat...

Let's hear more from the Republicans about how we can never be more like Europe, because they're all socialists and that's bad, bad, evil and bad. No one in America would want social policies that actual contribute to people feeling more content with their lives, right?

pluto, generally when people say things like they want government to improve their contentment what they really mean is they don't want adult responsibilites or to be bothered with taking care of themselves and the people they choose to bring into the world so they would be much more "content" foisting those responsibilities off on to other people. Don't you think there should be at least one place left in the world where adults can choose to live freely? America used to be that place. I hope it can be again.

They (the school system) tiered us by our abilities. So, yes, Mrs. X's class had the students who took longer to learn their skills and Mrs. Y's class was doing math a year ahead of schedule. And NOBODY dared to crack a smart aleck remark about the kids over in Mrs. X's class. Otherwise you got to go tutor one of them in reading or math and maybe even have to eat lunch with 'them'.

As a teacher, I have to say I have always thought this would be the smartest thing to do. It really only makes sense. My son is great in English but not so great in math. He falls further and further behind in math because he has kids in his class who pick it up easily, and if there are SOME in his class that get it, the teacher finds this acceptable and moves on. My daughter on the other hand is in G-T and very smart. However, I find that she gets "held up" while waiting on students who just "don't get it" and the teacher stops to help them. It only makes sense that they "tier" students in classes by their abilities.. but many people see this as discrimination or labeling or whatever.. So, it will never happen. And, therefor, my son will fall further and further behind in math throughout high school, and my daughter will not learn all she is capable of learning due to being held up in every class...

plutocracy--

Wrong--Some people should have 10 kids and they would all turn out to be contributing citizens largely because of their genes. It is the worst kind of Socialist gibberish to deny people the right to pro-create. People should be responsible for those they bear, however.

Adoption now is not a good option. 1-3 kids comes from a womb of a drug impaired mother. My cousins and brothers took this option of adoption and, to a person, have regretted taking these damaged and pretty much hopeless children into their homes where they are constantly in trouble and my cousin confided (crack baby now teenager) that when she goes to be at night she wonders if he will kill them all before she awakes!

K Teacher read my post #37 it echos almost exactly what you said.

I was going to say the same thing! When I grew up in the 60's and 70's, we always hade 30+ kids in the class!

Time for them to "man-up" and earn some money!

True - the difference - Students in Public Schools today can say and do anything they want. Class size doesn't make a lot of difference when students can ignore the rules of the classroom and refuse to cooperate and refuse to learn. They cheat - they disrupt class - they keep other students from learning.

Time for Parents to "man up" and Demand that their Politicians do what is necessary to put the school and the classroom back in control of Administrators and Teachers - not the the worst parents and students who are now in charge.

Sounds like both of you are perfect examples of the un-intelligent "dumb asses" that have put US Public Schools in the shape they are now.

.. you have no idea what you are talking about.

the teacher taught 2 grades in the same room

Big Doggg...

this comment cracked me up.. Back then (as you say) the teacher taught two grades in the same room.. HAHA!

I teach HS kids, and I can assure you, I teach WAY more grades than TWO in my classroom. I had two ninth graders that couldn't read past a 2nd grade level last year. I had several who were college bound readers. And then I had the rest of my class who were average 9-12 grade readers.. all of them varying somewhere in between 9th and 12th grade level reading... . So.. believe it or not there were more than 2 grades being taught in my classroom for six classes a day. That was just one class I described to you too.

ALL of my classes have students at different levels (which as teachers, we are required to teach them at the level they are capable of understanding).. if they can't read the 9th grade level work.. then you read it to them or find an audio of the story to listen to. If they can't read the homework questions, you read it to them. If they can't answer essay questions.. they tell you the answer and YOU (I) write it down for them!

Don't presume you know something about teaching, because teaching TWO different/grade levels in my classroom would be a piece of cake!