Agreed!

Philosophically speaking, everything is political.

Ship him to gitmo!

Terrorists do not get "rights". If they do it needs to be applied the same to the ones being held in GITMO. Terrorists are International and Domestic criminals and both need to be held to the same judicial process.

I cringe when I think that every time an doctor who performs abortions in a clinic is killed, we are one step closer to overturning Roe v. Wade. It's a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy. It's even more so when the child wouldn't be viable and it would only suffer (or die immediately after birth). Do people not think?

No he needs to be tried as a murderer and executed as all murderers should be. Do we agree?

Per Mr. Obama you can use that word anymore, shame on you! But again, one murder was executed, why not kill the other one too. Good point.

It's a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy.

Sounds nicer that way doesn't it. Kind of like canceling a credit card....

It's even more so when the child wouldn't be viable and it would only suffer (or die immediately after birth). Do people not think?

Right... because doctors are always so right. Case in point. A couple friend of ours was told that if they allowed their pregnancy to continue the baby would 100% for certain die and the mother would 70% die. The relied on their faith and decided to keep the baby. During the pregnancy, they said the baby was developing down syndrome, deformities in the arms and legs, yet they went on with the pregnancy.

There baby is now 18 months old and is 100% healthy without ANY of the conditions. Oh, the mom is doing fine as well.

Now, I would have respected their choice to not follow through because who can judge people that have to make such difficult decisions. That being said, it was a wonderful experience to see their faith pay and to witness a child most people would have never let be born.

mr rogers.....be quiet

Good point! The doctors are very often wrong. The horror stories are many. Let's face it. We have gotten to the point where we don't want to decide for ourselves. If you knew what I know about doctors, you wouldn't be so inclined to worship them.

who ever did this should be tried in court by a jury of his/her peers, as called for by the Constitution of the United States. No different than any other person who commits murder.

Mr. Rodgers

A good post and thoughtful. You give us an example of a problem that happened to turn out well of, but what if it had not? What if the baby was born without a brain or so severely impaired that it could never live without being on life support, perhaps for decades? Of course, this is hypothetical, never the less this happens more often than not.

In olden times Doctors or mid wives would take the still born or severely impaired and kill them because they knew that this child would become a severe handicap to the survival of the family or to the mother. Abortion is not some latter day problem at all. But, it has taken on a religious and political face because of the openness of the issue.

To those who oppose abortion for religious reasons hear the words of Jesus as He replied to the question of whether or not it was lawful to pay the Roman tax, "Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's." You are in this world but not of this world. Let the world lookout for itself and work out your own salvation. None of us are above judgement. All things in due time.

In this country abortion is legal. If you are opposed to it, don't do it. You do not have the right to tell another what to do. It is their choice and they will answer for their choice. You can not gain "favor" with God by doing what YOU think He wants you to do. Read your Bible. It's there for YOUR salvation, not for you to "earn" your way into his good grace.

Dear Mr Rogers, first you say:

Sounds nicer that way doesn't it. Kind of like canceling a credit card....

Then you say, in the very same post:

Now, I would have respected their choice to not follow through because who can judge people that have to make such difficult decisions.

Now which is it? Are you judging or are you not?

Lkessler, well said. I don't think I'll even post anything else on this board. I definitely couldn't say it any better than that.....right on.

Mr. Rogers.

"Nutters". No one likes abortion even prochoice. It is a terriable thing to do but I guess some think they know better..the same ones never forced to make a choice...the same ones that called preggo teens a "tragedy" until Palin's unwed, minor daughter had one.

lkessler.... "And let me tell you something--opinions are like arseholes--everybody's got one. However, I hate to tell you: it just doesn't mean everyone is entitled to yours. ... You're a wack job alright."

Yet, everyone is entitled to your opinion???

I disagree. He shouldn't be considered a domestic terrorist, he should be treated just like any other accused murderer - no better, no worse.

How many full term babies did he kill with the "partial birth abortion" procedure.

While I don't condone what happened to him, I certainly would not be able to condone what he did either. Galatians 6: 7.

The pro-life strikes again. So overwhelmed with the concept of "pro-life", they murder.

I don't believe in Jesus, God, Budda, Allah, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, or the tooth fairy...

But, isn't, "thous shall not kill", one of their Top Ten?

Unfortunately, I live in the city where they just arrested this psycho. His name is Scott Roeder. He's been a sicko for quite a while.....

Here's some other info on him:

July 7, Kansas: Scott Roeder is sentenced to sixteen months in state prison for parole violations following a 1996 conviction for having bomb components in his car trunk. Roeder, a sovereign citizen and tax protester, violated his parole by not filing tax returns or providing his social security number to his employer.

Because Newt and Rush told him to do it? You are as Extreme as the person that Murdered this Doctor.. its Extremism on both sides that is the problem in this country

I'm just glad that this Doctor's "quality" health care for women wasn't available to my mother.

The human race, for some odd reason, follows politicos like cattle to a cow bell. Once we all stop making everyone's personal business our own business and keep our own back yards clean we'll experience a much more peaceful world.

The politicos keep kicking these types of issues around because they can get you to vote based on their positions. Quit trying to legislate other people's lives to fit your idea of how life should be. Walk away from this way of thinking and living.

This shooter was so enraged by ideologies and believed that somehow 'the system' would make everyone behave, in the way he wanted, that when that didn't happen he shot this guy.

Leave each other alone people. Let these issues die. Sheesh. Don't react to everything you read in the papers, on the internet, on the news. The information barrage has led us to believe that our own opinion matters on every single issue. They don't matter. In fact they can lead to violence. Get a life of your own and stay out of others' lives.

Let's all hope the individual acted alone. America is a Country of laws that have been developed over our existence. This act was clearly murder in the eyes of the law. Abortion is not murder in the eyes of the law. If you disagree change the laws, but until you do it is murder.

In fact they are rarely correct but because they went to a liberal college they can say and do what they want and have no accountability.

Where do you get your information?

I look at it this way, yes it is a tragedy but Tiller "The Baby Killer" as he was oftenly referred to will now face his creator much faster. It is with God that his judgement now lies and may will view this as justice, all be it, twisted justice!

Mr rogers, would you please try and stay out of my panties. And just keep you hand on your own, please.

I think this is not the time to be arguing pro-choice/pro-life issues. A man was shot down in cold blood. I am pro-life, and so that makes me very sad. How ironic that the murderer committed the very act of ending a life, that he claims to be wrong. My sympathy to the family and friends of this victim.

It's a shame those people who claim to worship Jesus
can be so judgmental and full of hate to gun someone
down at church. How would they like us gunning them
down because they think differently than most? What
the hell is wrong with these people?

What this animal did is wrong. He should have let God deal with him in due time. This doctor is now dealing with God on the dispicable murders he inflicted on so many helpless babies in their mothers womb. May he be repentant...

"Tiller .....said the issue was about giving women a choice when dealing with technology that can diagnose severe fetal abnormalities before a baby is born."

Sounds very altruistic, except that the article failed to mention that Tiller's reputation was not of terminating "severe fetal abnormalities", but terminating healthy, full term abortions using the Partial Birth procedure, wherein a healthy baby's head is delivered, then the baby is killed by the doctor, and then the rest of the baby (now dead) is delivered. He would apparently perform this procedure on anyone for a fee, without regard for the "health of the mother" or any supposed "fetal abnormalities".

I can't condone what happened to him, but .........

It is with deepest sympathy that I express my condolences to the family and friends of Dr. Tiller. I was introduced to Dr. Tiller in October of 2005 when I had found out that the baby that I was carrying would be born with congenital defects that no medicine or surgery could correct. It was a life changing experience that I will take with me to the end. He saved me, my family, and by unborn fetus a life of agony, anguish, and hardship. It was the most difficult decision I had to make. In addition to myself being at the clinic, there were other women there; not to abort a child that was healthy, but a fetus that was grossly deformed or sick. I would never wish the heartache I had to go through on an enemy but wish that they could catch a glimpse of what it feels like to have to make the decision that I made. There were thousands of letters of gratitude to Dr. Tiller posted throughout the clinic. Dr. Tiller was a professional, sincere, and caring physician that came highly recommended from renowned genetic doctors that I spent countless hours with trying to negotiate the results to painful testing that I endured only to find out the inevitable. There is no reason for a woman to continue a pregnancy that could endanger her life or the life of her unborn fetus. The world has evolved enough to know that women are entitled to make these choices on their own without the added burden of the world coming down on them. Instead of investing all the time it takes to protest, why not take the time to volunteer and counsel women that have had to go through the nightmare of losing a baby or take the time to volunteer and help the children that are abused or the vulnerable that cannot speak for themselves and have been taken advantage of by family members. Why not focus your negative energy on the selfless acts of "church-going" citizens that impregnate their 12 year old nieces or daughters. Choose the battle that is worth fighting, don't make the lives of people that have lived through this experience worse than what it was. I drove 60 straight hours from Toronto, Ontario, Canada to meet Dr. Tiller and don't regret any second of it. I sympathize deeply with the clients scheduled to meet with Dr. Tiller in the future, because he is the only one that was willing to help the people that nobody else would. Something that has stuck with me since meeting Dr. Tiller was that he said "pregnancy doesn't begin with a positive test, it begins with the first thought that you want to have a baby". It couldn't have been a more honest and sincere quote; we had been trying for some time to get pregnant, only to have to give the baby up. What about the staff at the clinic who have to worry about their own fate each day, what about their livelihoods? Are those protestors going to take in those families because they no longer have a job to go to? Pro-life? Isn't that what Dr. Tiller was doing? Grow up.

I've scanned the vine and this is the best comment I have seen so far on this:

Anthony Colasanto | May 31, 2009 2:24 PM | Reply

We still do not know the reason why George Tiller was killed. Nevertheless, the pro-life movement does not favor the killing for any reason! We seek the conversion and not the killing of those whom we hope and pray will be won over by our love and by the love of Jesus as has happened with many former abortion providers and pro-abortionists like Dr. Bernard Nathanson (co-founder of NARAL) and Norma McCorvey (the "Jane Roe" of Roe vs. Wade). For a few examples, see: http://prolifeaction.org/providers/

We as pro-lifers believe that God does not desire the death of the sinner, but that he repent and live (Ezekiel 18:32; 33:11)

We do not fight violence with violence or murder with murder. We are committed to fighting the culture of death through prayer and through education. That has been the constant message of pro-lifer leaders and advocates for decades.

It is wrong for people who oppose pro-lifers to use this as an opportunity to accuse us with the false sweeping generalization that "pro-lifers" are violence. It is a well documented fact that "pro-choicers" commit more acts of violence compared to pro-lifers. http://abortionviolence.com/

Finally, I will keep George Tiller and his family in my thoughts and prayers. My heart is saddened for them as they face this tragedy. May they find joy and peace in the love and forgiveness of our Blessed Lord and Savior Christ Jesus.

This is not an issue of Politics certainly not all Democrats are pro choice and not all Republicans are Pro life. And Murder is wrong and I think everyone here would agree. But, this was a terrible man who did very late term abortions nearly full term pregnancies. I would think the most people would also agree that is wrong also! I am a pro choice person. But I do not think a full term babies should be aborted to me that is murder.

To Annalouise...

hurrah for the shooter. Hope the dr has a special seat in hell for all the babies he killed.

Hmmm...How Christian of you. Rather than judge him, some who felt he was taking lives would be saddened that his life was taken prematurely... by another human being, who put himself in the place of judgement. How do you know the plans God had for him?

GaLiberal Your statement is ridiculous!

I think the killer should be prosecuted and sent to jail just like any other murderer. I don't believe the government should kill citizens so prison would be my choice. I can't speak for God on any of the important issues, I am not so sure anyone can.

Roy Wilson - most of your post is wrong - late term abortions are illegal without specific medical reasons, so he was not performing them for anyone and everyone who could pay.

Those of you who think abortion is legal are right, it IS legal. However, it being legal does in no way make killing babies 'right'.

A major question I have is how Tillman has kids and grandkids since his whole livelyhood was based on killing babies. I know if I'd been his child I'd have kept my bedroom door lock, bolted and braced!!!

hey, you play with FIRE, you get BURNED..just thank God, you never became a victim of these atrocities...the sensible solution to all this is; EDUCATION and PREVENTION..it should be remedial in early education, and more progressive as years go by..please, if humanity is smart about this dilemma, we would not have to end up so brutal and unsophisticated about all this..

Violence begets violence. The shooter is a murderer and so is the "doctor" How sad. And so is the fact that in this day and age of hard core sexuality on the tube and sex ed in school, yet abortion and teen pregnancies still continue

btw, Everyone...view a late term abortion lately? Hopefully you won't soon.

I've seen the results of late-term abortions, college students at my old high school would protest with pictures of late-term abortion babies in front of the school cafeteria.

Our local news reported the man arrested has priors for possession of explosives, and said to have ties to some militia group. Where is Homeland Security when you need them? Oh yeah, frisking 80-year-old ladies in wheel chairs at the airport. (I actually have witnessed that twice.)

Another Timothy McVeigh.

I remember noticing after 9-11 that our domestic abortion clinic evangelical bombers slowed or stopped the acts of terror. They're baaaaa-aaack. Jesus Camp 101

Capt Tripps

"Roy Wilson - most of your post is wrong - late term abortions are illegal without specific medical reasons, so he was not performing them for anyone and everyone who could pay."

Dr. Tiller had a reputation for being willing to perform late-term abortions for specious reasons - hence the trial against him.

I am willing to bet that some group that is against abortion is involved. What does it take, some minister to say this man should not live? I am sure that many have already said it to some one at some time. It took them three times, but they finally got him. Flat out premeditated murder!

I am outraged over the amount of Comments collapsed by the community. I want to read everyones opinion.

Are you talking about the doctor who killed full term babies? or the guy who killed the guy who killed full term babies.

I condone this behavior however lets talk about a baby that is over 5 months old and this man sucked their brains out so they would die........can we have that discussion or is it too sickening???????

Sam...very truthfully, you do not even deserve a reply, but as you have choose to take verses out of context, and misquote and misinterpret, I have this to say,

Concerning your statement, Matthew 5:17" Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place."

The law, is the ten commandments, one of which is "Thou shall not kill".

Concerning your out of context misquote, Matthew 15:4 Because God said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and 'Whoever curses father or mother must certainly be put to death.'

The quote is, "For God commanded 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die'. But you say, 'If any one tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.' So for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you when he said; 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men'" Matthew 15; 4-9 Speaking "evil" would be speaking lies, deception, dishonesty...and "let him surely die" refers to spiritual death that person would bring upon himself... not murder. The message Jesus was giving was the hypocrisy that "men's religious rules" sometimes carried within them...and in actuality, those rules (or traditions) were in direct conflict with God's Will and Law (the commandments) for His people.

Concerning your quote, Luke 19:27 But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and slaughter them in my presence (spoken by Jesus).

That quote is the end of a parable, (a story used for instructing...to draw a comparison...used to teach a deeper moral or spiritual truth). Thus, it is open for interpretation...and not all Christians understand it to be showing the "nobleman" who speaks the words you quote (and whom is also refered to in the parable as, "a severe man, who take what you did not lay down, and reap what you did not sow"), to be representative of God. Some see this "nobleman", to be representative of those men/women in power, who exploit and mistreat those under their authority.

Concerning your misquote, Luke 12:47 "And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes”

The quote (which is also part of a parable spoken by Jesus), in further context is (Jesus said), "But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful. And that servant who knew his master's will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall recieve a severe beating." Luke 12; 45-47 It is related to the "we reap what we sow" teaching...sin brings suffering upon ourselves and sometimes others...that is due to our poor choices...and that is not God's Will for us.

Since Jesus came to reveal God's Truth, and you have chosen to attempt to attack and defame Him, I am only addressing your comments and scriptual quotes concerning His teachings. You should not open your mouth about things that you have no understanding of, and if you choose not to believe, you do not have to attempt to attack and offend those of us who do.

Are you talking about the full term abortion doctor?

Yes Dave, they are talking about the late term abortion Doctor. The thing I find interesting is was he was a leader in his church. It just strikes me as odd he would even want to be a member of any organized religion. Most Churches don't believe in abortion, they consider it murder. I don't agree with what he did, just like I don't believe he should have been to be gunned down. That has always been an emotional debate between People who agree with it or not. I think it makes no since to kill someone that your upset with for killing. It's pretty two faced.

I can see were these stupid things go on with both sides you'll always have these morons that go to Soldiers funerals and hold up signs protesting them. They call them baby killers and rapist, it's just wrong and people need to realize just because you don't agree with someone It gives you one right to hurt them physically or mentally.

It's kind of like that Code Pink and how they act like a bunch of morons, I believe in freedom of speech but I don't believe they have a right to invade on a private ceremony. There are so many cicvil ways to show your disapproval.

KJR,

Where do I begin? You are attempting to do what most Christians who follow this work of fiction are forced to do, reinterpret the teachings of Jesus, modify these instructions so as to make them appear less barbaric.

Let's start with your "let him surely die" ploy. According to the New American Bible the exact wording is: 'Whoever curses father or mother shall die.' But for the sake of fairness, fine, then we'll also take into consideration your version. I ask why would a loving God wish death on someone for simply disagreeing with their parents? Would any of us today wish death as punishment for their child's disobedience? And as for your “spiritual death” ploy, nice one, the only problem is that Matthew 15:4 is specific, it is about punishment according to the will of God – period.

Next in regards to your massively modified interpretation of Luke 19:27 again, the teachings of Jesus are specific here; he wants his enemies murdered in front of him. Deeper moral and spiritual truth?!? Your Arial font generated diarrhea is truly magnificent. You would have had better luck trying to peddle that when Jesus said slaughter he was really talking in code and that “slaughter” was really a secret code to instruct his followers to hand out Twinkies to his enemies.

As for Matthew 5:17 and the ten commandments, thanks for pointing out the fact that the bible is chock full of contradictions, in fact a page cannot be turned without one contradiction or another. The ten commandments; that even though #6 states “Thou shalt not kill, #4 condones the murder of those who would dare work on Sunday.

But most important, why would God, the creator of this Universe with 400+ billions stars & 200 sextillion planets chose one paperback book ($5 buys you the hardback version) as proof of his existence, his will and then (truly ridiculous) allow different versions with different wordings to exist? You would think the all powerful creator of the Universe, of stars, planets, galaxies etc. would be powerful enough to prevent this from happening.

Enough said.

As a solution, both Pro-life and Pro-choice are unsustainable. Both arguments, being temporal and also binary do not have basis in Truth with a capital "T". That is, depending on your point of view you can argue for either side and be both correct and wrong at the same time. Look at this sad example of Dr. Tiller's murder. A Pro-lifer took the life of a human while trying to defend his/her viewpoint on abortion. Tried to justify the taking of a life to save another life. Isn't he/she now just as guilty? Totally hypocritical and therefore unsustainable. Let's say we outlaw abortion, how will we handle an overcrowded Earth in a few centuries? Who will be chosen to die and who will live when the Earth's resources no longer support our biology? We need to STOP trying to legislate based on binary and temporal arguments and instead look toward the Eternal solutions. The religious should return to their roots where Jesus instructed us to "seek ye first the Kingdom of God." That is, the unarguable Truths which are Eternal. Kind of like the writings of our Constitution and our Bill of Rights. They are written in UNARGUABLE language and their Truths will hold (sustain) until the end of times. Also, the religious should try to remember that Jesus Christ triumphed over death. That is, if you really believe in Jesus Christ than death is not a problem, am I correct? Then we should just accept death within the reality of life as just another stage and forget about the timing. What we are really argueing here is the timing of death and not death in itself. Could it not be that soon to be aborted fetuses only come into this plane of existence in order to teach their parents something about life? And if so, who are we to negate the lesson? The parent(s), having learned their error from a prior abortion, wouldn't they be more receptive and caring of the gift of life in the future?

He should be treated as a murder, no more no less. Here endeth the lesson.

debrarescuesdogs

The righteous compassionate conservatives have raised their ugly heads again.

Why does this have to be about politics? Why must the leftist make this a right or left political statement.. This man was killed by someone who had a problem with him and what he did..

It is somewhat disturbing to me that the media is using the phrase "abortion doctor" as though that is all he did -- perform abortions. Don't know if this is true and his website doesn't seem to be working, but I suspect he was operating a full-service women's health clinic, in which case, not only has the killer stopped him performing abortions, but he has stopped him providing ANY healthcare to women.

100% agree with you!!!

In my opinion, I hope the FBI investigates every pro life group. And if they find evidence of wrong doing, file charges against them.

And what could we possiably charge these groups with? Some possiable charges could be, Accessory to Murder, Conspiracy, terrorism, Hate Crimes, these are a few suggestions and opinions.

It amazes me that you a lot of you assume that this person is a Christian or even claims to be. Attending church every Sunday doesn't make you a Christian anymore than sleeping in your garage makes you a car... And you quoting the Bible to me is like me picking up a text book on nuclear physics and trying to tell you what it is all about without reading, studying, or taking classes. So I would appreciate not showing your lack of understanding... And let’s talk about the percentage of women who make the "choice" to use abortion as "birth control", to terminate "kill" a perfectly healthy baby because it’s not convenient for their lifestyle...

It amazes me that you a lot of you assume that this person is a Christian or even claims to be. Attending church every Sunday doesn't make you a Christian anymore than sleeping in your garage makes you a car... And you quoting the Bible to me is like me picking up a text book on nuclear physics and trying to tell you what it is all about without reading, studying, or taking classes. So I would appreciate not showing your lack of understanding... And let’s talk about the percentage of women who make the "choice" to use abortion as "birth control", to terminate "kill" a perfectly healthy baby because it’s not convenient for their lifestyle...

What a fantastic Christian. Pro-life groups ought to be proud of the Frankenstein's monster they've helped to create. Of course they'll trip over themselves to put some distance between their fiery language and harrassment of people who disagree with them on an issue that depends less on evidence and fact than each person's internal belief system, but if violence can be blamed on secular video games, movies and TV (e.g. Columbine was Marilyn Manson's fault, etc.), then it seems appropriate to question whether the same standard should apply to right wing sources that deliberately use incendiary images and language to arouse passions. Not to say that they should be censored...just that the next time the holier than thou crowd whines about something stupid like Grand Theft Auto, they should have to answer for incidents like this.

tiller the Killer reaps his rewards.

Wow, gloating over someone's murder- nice! I'm sure Jesus would be proud.

What clinic did you attend to have your conscience aborted?

What clinic did you attend to have your conscience aborted?

Now that's just funny!

I have to admit that's one of the few times I have read a comment on NV that made me laugh

You don't mind if I borrow it do you?

How ironic ... a "pro-life" killing spree.

These terrorists are to Christianity as Osama Bin Laden is to Islam. Lets hope they all end up in prison where they belong.

Murder is wrong anytime. Abortion is wrong anytime.

Sam...your first quote in your comment #2.48, says

Matthew 15:4 Because God said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and 'Whoever curses father or mother must certainly be put to death.'

Then in your second comment, you say...

Let's start with your "let him surely die" ploy. According to the New American Bible the exact wording is: 'Whoever curses father or mother shall die.'

"be put to death" and "shall die" can have very different meanings. My comment's quote of "let him surely die", seems closer to your corrected quote in your response posting of, "shall die", than your original "be put to death". And so, my point...translations are imperfect...we may not have the exact words in English to fully convey the original (language) message's full meaning. We look at the whole...not taking small verses out of context, as you attempt to. Also, when Jesus is telling a parable, He is giving a hidden message, that can have many interpretations and meanings for us, and He is "meeting people where they are at"...in other words, His teachings were put in the context of man's ability to comprehend and understand the message at their present time...within their culture and society of the time.

Regardless of what you choose to believe, and how you may attempt to twist scripture, or call Jesus "a terrorist" and an "assh#le"...the truth is, Jesus never killed anyone, but He gave life and healing to many. I think you are a coward to attempt to use this message board to manipulate and deceive others...and thus try to destroy faith in some reading this, who may not have ever read the scriptures or do not have understanding of the Bible and Jesus message.

Now that's just funny!

I have to admit that's one of the few times I have read a comment on NV that made me laugh

You don't mind if I borrow it do you?

Sure, no problem.

What comes around, goes around. Perhaps this will serve as a deterrent for med students who are wondering if they should provide abortions.

Funny, here I was thinking maybe I need to go back to school so I can become an abortionist. Do you think I am afraid of being killed by some uneducated-should-have-been-aborted piece of excrement? I fear the loss of rights over my own body, as well as there not being enough doctors with character who will provide this medical procedure. Yep, medical procedure.

He acknowledged abortion was as socially divisive as slavery or prohibition but said the issue was about giving women a choice when dealing with technology that can diagnose severe fetal abnormalities before a baby is born.

The problem is of course, this is NOT what Tiller was doing. He would do late term abortions for any one coming to him. It was about the money

Obama said he was shocked at the killing and yet he would have prevented any aborted baby that had survived the abortion procedure even the most rudimentary care. Note, he was the only person in the Ill state house that voted that way. He says the same thing Clinton did, make it legal but rare, but this of course is nothing more than a pandering lie by a politician trying to have it both ways.

Hopefully the FCC is paying attention to years of hate speech spewed by Bill O'Reilly in relationship to the murder of Dr. Tiller. The FCC needs to wake up and protect consumers from fraud and abuse and take action against hate mongers like O'Reilly and Limbaugh. O'Reilly should be held accountabile for the murder that he inspired and promoted by his disgusting hate speech......and the FCC should be held accountable for refusing to take action to protect the public from hate speech that ultimately leads to terrorist acts.

The murder of this man at this place of worship is a horrible incident.

I would also like to comment that I am against abortion and only believe in peaceful non-violent observance. An eye for an eye is not the way of GOD. Two wrongs, do not make a right.

I will pray for the Doctor, his family and the shooter. GOD BLESS AMERICA and help us return to your ways and teaching.

don't know if I would call the murderer a terrorist, but he committed first degree murder and should be locked up for life without parole.

With respect to all you picketers out there - YOU DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to change anyone's opinion on abortion.

All you do is HARRASS which is illegal too.

To let you know, ROE V WADE WILL NEVER BE OVERTURNED because of me and others like me to believe that the only person who can make a decision on what to with their body IS THAT PERSON and THAT PERSON ALONE.

Karen, AMEN! I agree with you 100% on this in that each person should be able to make decisions concerning their own body.

What if, on this particular Sunday, this Doctor had gone to church to "change his ways" and stop abortions and ask God for forgiveness, but died knowing he wasn't able to clear his conscience?

Who in the world are we to judge the others? Fine if we want to have opinions, but we don't go around killing people. Period.

A murderer kills 1 or 2 people, many times a specific person. A terrorist kills as many as he can randomly.

A murderer still gets due process. Terrorists should not get due process because they are usually not citizens or resident aliens and because they are a threat to all in society.

It is important for you to get your facts straight and not react emotianally, because our Republic is diminished by a lack of logic and common sense.

Karen-

Perfectly worded. Thank you. I wish these pro-lifers would "get a life" and stay out of everyone's business.

I was just thinking. What would be happening right now if Obama's Mama would have had an abortion when she got knocked up.

Treated as a terrorist? Are you kidding me? Do you people say that every murderer should be treated as a terrorist, or only the ones who kill abortion doctors? I don't condone murder in any situation, and his killer should be prosecuted for his crime, but this doctor was a baby killer, plain and simple. He didn't just perform abortions, he killed as many as he could possibly get his hands on....or scalpel/vacuum/forceps in. If anyone was a terrorist, it was Butcher Tiller. Gimme a break.

Just a reminder that it's not about a specific religion, but it's about fundamentalist extremist. Be it Islamic or Christian, our society has no room for these extremists.

The full extent of the law should be applied against these domestic terrorists, just as much as we go after the Taliban.

There's no difference between these so-called "Christian" fundamentalist and those Islamic extremist with strapped on bombs. They are both equally a threat to our American-way of life and our Constitution.

The problem of course, is religion to begin with, but that's a whole new argument.

I didn't see anyone mention the babies rights? The ones that he killed daily. I'm shocked that no one considers that an act of violence. Murder is wrong in any situation, whether is be shooting someone over something you disagree with or taking the life of children; yes, they are alive in the womb....don't forget. Women's rights start with the decision to not concieve if they don't want to deal with all possibilities.

I see all these comments trying to spin this situation one way or the other and just have to wonder. It looks like this killer was a confirmed nut case and his actions are about as meaningful and responsible as you normally see with such a person and only other equally moronic types will try to divine some meaning to his actions.

The miracle here is that Tiller lived as long as he did. Continuing his practice of late term abortions instead of sticking to normal OB/GYN after what had happened in the past is testimony to his own lack of touch with reality...sort of the same mentality as those who seek restraining orders against nutcases and expect to be protected. The thing to be thankful for is that no one else will die as a result of their proximity or association with Tiller...other than this killer who took him down. Let's hope that Kansas has a death penalty and that the ACLU doesn't get him off as insane or underprivileged or get to drag out his execution like they do for all these other losers. Maybe they'll make an exception and back off their own nutcase behavior in view of the fact that this guy took down one of their heroes. Even the darkest cloud can have a silver lining.

I would rather see the person who commited this murder (in church of all places) treated as they treat terrorists in Saudi Arabia - on prime time TV.

Cincinnati Rick, if you can find ANYTHING EVEN THE SLIGHTEST TO BE THANKFUL IN THIS, means there is a fine line between you and this murderer. No matter how anyone feels about abortion, THERE IS NOTING POSITIVE IN ANY WAY, IN THE FARTHEST STRETCH OF THE MOST WARPED IMAGINATION, that can be found in this. if you feel the slightest movement towards that, you should search your own soul.

Hope (Msg. #2.27), that is the most broadly intelligent commentary I think I've ever read on "Newsvine". You give me "hope" for the human race (admittedly, it's a limited hope, given the other 89 posts on this particular thread).

I'm just curious about something. If it's every woman's right to choose whether or not she has an abortion then why is it that men don't have a choice in these matters? If a woman chooses to have a child then the male responsible for making that child with her just has to grin and bear it, so to speak. If a woman has the right then a man should have the right as well to choose whether or not his child is born. With that being said, each "right" is wrong. You can't have your cake and eat it too. This is a huge double standard and it's ridiculous that we even discuss it. The man who shot the doctor needs to be prosecuted and punished. Murder is murder, whether it's commited by a gunman or a doctor claiming to be offering "health services". Doesn't sound too healthy for the unborn child.

By the way, Mr Rogers, I completely agree with you.

Sorry Ron but I have no dog in this fight. I am not anti-abortion. But I do condone the right of those who are to stop it by whatever legal means. And I do understand but not condone that when legal means are not available some will seek vigilante means.

What Tiller was doing knowingly endangered himself and everyone around him. That's his own prerogative where his own safety is concerned but not others. All too often these situations end up with innocent bystanders being killed as well and if you can't be happy that did not occur here, then it is you that has a problem.

That said, we need to put the mad dog down. And hopefully the people who usually obstruct justice will be too tied up in their political correctness to intervene this time. And that would also be something to be grateful for...even if their failure to intervene is for the wrong reasons.

I've read enough of these posts to come to the conclusion that most of the people here are morons. First of all...the real crux of the argument here is when does life actually begin? When is it "murder"? Science has yet to prove this point. Whilst a baby is attached to the mother via an umbilical cord and a placenta, it is in fact, by definition, a parasite. Yes, a parasite. It cannot live without the host. Here is the definition for those who would disagree: "Biology. An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host." Aborions are illegal past the point of viability;when the fetus would be able to maintain life on it's own without the host. It is and should remain a woman's right to decide to deliver a baby. Society should have no say on this choice. Now, after the fetus is delivered, then societies laws and conventions do apply. The fetus is now an individual. Dr. Tiller went to trial not because he was performing late term abortions, but because it was thought that he was seeking the mandatory second opinion from another doctor that was an employee of his. A second opinion needs to be obtained by another separate doctor before a late term abortion can be performed. Dr. Tiller was acquitted of these charges. My history...I am a Christian and proud of my faith. I have had two abortions, one when I was young and used poor judgement and the other was a late term abortion when I was married. The fetus was found to be deformed due to X0 syndrome and the chromosomal tests confirmed the case. I chose not to go through with the pregnancy and terminated late. Do I have any regrets or guilt feelings? Not one. It was my choice. When I went to the clinic to have my abortion, I was harassed by protesters, none of whom took me up on my offer to give the fetus to them if they wanted me to go full term...I went on to have four wonderful, healthy children. Dr. Tiller was not a murderer. The person that killed him is. Dr. Tiller probably brought much relief and compassion into the lives of the women and families he helped during a difficult time. The murderer of Dr. Tiller just set back women's rights...

oldefarte

Hope (Msg. #2.27), that is the most broadly intelligent commentary I think I've ever read on "Newsvine". You give me "hope" for the human race (admittedly, it's a limited hope, given the other 89 posts on this particular thread).

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• !

#2.94 - Mon Jun 1, 2009 12:44 PM CDT

Thanks alot oldefarte. Knowing you're out there gives me some hope too. At least there's a couple of people who can think independently of the rabble and dust clouds. I can't help but wonder what's going on behind the scenes when everyone's attention is captured by these 'events.' There are critical things going down and most of us are looking the wrong way.

I personally disagree with abortions, would never seek one. At the same time, I'm not qualified as a meager human being to force another to give birth, and raise their child. After all, all they did was have sex. Birth Control is not 100%.

I have always felt that those who take pro-life to an extreme, have as much of a problem with the act of casual sex, as they do "protecting" the unborn potential life.

Roe v Wade prevented 45- 50,000,000 unwanted births.

That's a powerful fact. To some, "50 million" is the keyword. To me, the keyword is "unwanted".

We get all riled up complaining about the "costs" of 10 million "unwanted" Mexicans (who work their collective arses off) in America. Do the math, what would we do with those 50,000,000 who weren't even wanted by their mother?

If you don't like what Howard Stern says, change the channel. If you are against abortions, don't get one. Isn't life that simple?

You are entirely too insane if you think that folks who decide to terminate a pregnancy make such decisions without weighing every consequence.

Now which is it? Are you judging or are you not?

LOL.. come on.. are you serious? BY FAR MOST ABORTIONS occur because people were not careful in sex and simply do not want the baby.

Now I would not judge someone in a case of medical issues for life and death, but these are less than 1% of all abortions...

Finally, I never said abortion should be made ILLEGAL just that I can understand why people oppose it strongly seeing it as murder.

Lets get some facts straight here.

First of all it's not pro-life it's ANTI-CHOICE. These people often believe in the death penalty which is actually pro-death.

I myself could say I'm pro-life. I'm all for living, it's pretty great sometimes. I'm all for each individual enjoying their own life. But I would never want to lose or to take away the right to have an abortion to anyone. I would never want anyone to lose their power of free will (to make educated decisions) or for the government to have the power to control our bodies. So I'm a pro-life, pro-choicer. (just try to expand your definitions here, there can't ever be one right answer)

Secondly who is breaking in to medical dumps, digging through biological waste, finding aborted fetuses and taking pictures of them for anti-choice protests? Not a sane person. The kind of person who would bomb a women’s health clinic were there’s a good chance living babies may be present. So killing people is supposed to prove that killing people is wrong? How does that make any sense? (even if you’ve been digging through body parts and used needles all night this can’t be logical)

Taking away the option of abortion for everyone for any reason is taking away a woman’s right to make her own decisions. If you don't trust that women can make educated decisions why are you letting them vote?

Take away women’s reproductive rights and soon we'll be taking away all women’s rights. And why stop there who else can't we trust to think for themselves? Who doesn't deserve to be in control of their lives?

It's a kick in the pants to see so many women supporting the anti-choice movement. Are you going to vote for burquas next?

1 Corinthians 11:6 (New International Version)

⁶If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.

If you're going to quote the bible to back your opinions up you should at lest follow the whole thing. So why aren't you good God fearing women wearing headscarves?

women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says.

So ladies follow the good book and remain in submission. After all you aren't allowed to speak so just let your religion do it for you.

And dear person where is you compassion for the aborted babies that could have survived given just a few more days in some of the cases? It is not a good thing that the Dr was murdered but that criminal will be caught and brought to justice.

They are not babies until they are born under law get over it. Laws protect all living humans that can live ourtside the wounb. Before that they are just a developing fetus and there is no gurantee they will make it to term.

Hey, I consider myself a liberal. I just believe there is a better way to do things than the way they are being done. I am definitely uncommon, but consider myself a rational human being. I'm a Christian, Democrat, and a pacifist. I don't believe in maintaining abortion clinics. If it weren't for the pure profit in it, they wouldn't exist. The legalization of abortion was an issue with doctors, not the women, because long before it was legal doctors were performing abortions all the time. If they got caught, it meant jail time. If doctors did abortions along with their normal practice, would they be targeted? No, it's only those doctors who run clinics especially for that purpose. And their reason? The money, of course. Do you think that if abortion was a free service of a socialized medical service that there would be any problem like this? Why can't we respect the patient's "right to privacy" when it comes to abortions? If there was any disclosure in any other case everybody would be fired! REMEMBER THE NURSES WHO TOLD ON BRITTANY? WELL?

there is no guarantee you will make it to work every morning. Should someone have the choice of terminating you?

When does life begin?

When did life begin? Was it a single celled amoeba type blob? was that life?

If so, what is the difference, as to what life is, between that first single celled protoplasmic blob and an unborn child? Other than one is studied and hailed as ..."the origin of life..." and the other is tossed into a wastebasket because it is just a mass of tissue. (?)

Logic defies

CJ 66. If people tried to keep up hope in societies throughout the centuries what makes you think profit is the motive?

I don't believe you are who you say you are because profit is not the reason for making churches, spiritualism is.

Profit is not the reason for teaching a neighborhood child to to catch a ball, fun and interest is. Profit is not the reason to have a public swimming pool in the neighborhood, community is. For visiting your sick aunt or mom or dad? Opening the door for someone else? Cooking a meal at your boat club???, profit is not money.

Midwives and doctors help people for one reason only...to help people.

CJ 66

Profit?

America isn't the world. Abortion is happening around the globe. Look just north of us to Canada. Their social medicare system means their isn't really any profit in abortion. How can anyone think they have thought seriously on an issue when they haven't even thought outside their own borders? The giant landmass above is a giant refutation to your "prfot" motive.

Dr. Tiller believed in a women's right to choose to the point he was willing risk his own life. How many of us have such serious convinctions?

To say he performed abortions was a ridiculous, offensive comment. Dr. Tiller has spent years being threatened, falsely accused, harassed and even previously shot. He has bullet-proof windows in the clinic and a bodyguard.

I live in Wichita. I know of some of the harassment he endured. However he believed in what he was doing. He could have made money as a regular ob/gyn, however he believed that women have the right to choose.

God Bless You, Dr. Tiller. I hope your family finds some comfort in knowing how many of us respected him.

It isnt the womans right. Maybe in some stupid court of law. How about the moral law. That is what this doctor is being held accountable to today and so will everyone else that murders the helpless babies in the womb.

CJ66: It had nothing to do with women going to get back alley abortions?It had nothing to do that women were using coat hangers instead of the proper medical equipment?It had nothing to do with women dying for these reasons?

If it was all for profit then what about prohibition. Alcohol is a huge money maker. Just ask the bootleggers and Joe Kennedy about all the money they made during prohibition. Here you have people passing laws and trying to push their morality on others. How did Prohibition go? Not too well. AL Capone and other gangsters got rich from this. Gang wars erupted all over the country. Americans do not like to be told not to do something because it goes against someone else's morals. Some examples of this are: prohibition, abortion, the war on drugs. Now that we have a war on drugs there is an epidemic in this country. Marijuana was not illegal till the 1920s. LSD was not illegal until the mid-1960s. Hell the CIA used it for mind control experiments. I don't remember reading about huge drug epidemics before these drugs were made illegal. I am not saying drugs should be made illegal. I am just using them as an example of how Americans do not like to be told not to do something because of someone else's morals. Plus drug dealers make huge amounts of money. By your theory then we would make it legal just to all by Hummers.

If you are a conservative then you are against big ggovernment. What is an bigger example of the government interfering in on our privacy than tellinga women what she can or can't do with her body. Hell China did this and told women how many babies they were allowed to have. Do we want it to get to that point? We have to be careful it is a very slippery slope once we allow the government to tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies. If you are a Conservative you probably already know this.

As for the murder of this doctor he should be put in prison. Fundamentilist really are scary.

Phugoid:

It's not the women's right to choose what happens to her body? Who's is it then? Yours? Mine? The Governments? Remember we are a society of laws. If you get caught speeding you have to go to that stupid court of law to plead your case. Why should your morals be forced on someone else. There is a reason the church and state was separated. Maybe I don't believe in your religion. Why should laws be passed to support your beliefs. If you are Christian does that mean we should start passing Muslim laws? Jewish laws? Buddhist laws? Hindu laws? Then every group I mentioned above would be upset.

This country goes by the Constitution. According to the Supreme Court abortion is Constitutional. Until you can prove it is unconstitutional then it will stay a law. It has nothing to do with what particular religion you subscribe to. So it was your God that had this doctor killed huh? He seems a very angry and spiteful God. It's funny when I was growing up and going to Sunday school Jesus did not strike me as a mean, vengeful person. Is that how God and Jesus work (or whoever you believe in)? They wait till the man is in their house of worship to take him? A place that is suppose to be peaceful? How about the fundamentalist that bombed other clinics. What about if an innocent mother and her baby were walking by on the side walk and were killed by the bomb. I guess that is all part of your spiteful Gods plan right. Or maybe this was just some whacked out fundamentalist that decided to act out on his own. You know that whole free will thing.

You don't read and someone wrote aand thought this up for you.

Why did Jesus cure the sick and heal the blind?

God wanted them to have this disease and not have a choice? God made that lesion so don't cure it? It would be immoral and furthermore...it could grow up to be a healthy human being?

No lesions don't grow up, woman don't survive late term problems and severe hydrocephalics dont grow brains back.

NOW, Number two: who are you going to shoot because they are not doing what you want?

Number 3: I say your child must be pregnant..it will be immoral if she is NOT pregnant! Do You believe me? I don't believe you either!

Greetings! V

JustThinkin - In addition to your comments, Dr. Tiller operated within the law.

phugoid - Dr. Tiller operated within the law. Therefore, he is not a murderer. The U.S. Justice System has provisions to make and modify laws, voted on by society in the best interest of society. The laws are not perfect but continually evolve to better serve society. "Moral law", as you say, should be decreed by who? A group of people or just a select few?

dacincykid

This doctor did Abortions on full term babies most would have survived outside the womb! Kansas procecutors were going to press charges because he was performing Abortions at 8 and 9 Months for reasons like the mother felt depress or said she was stressed. Those are not valid reasons to perform an abortion. Don't get me wrong murdering the doctor was wrong and evil. But this doctor was an evil man I would have prefered he went to jail.

...and the score at the end of the period...

Abortionists: 55 million

Anti-abortionists: 7

There is nothing in the Constitution that even comes close to saying abortion is right. To get to that point, some judges had to twist several times and then say "Because of 'A', then 'B' is probably intended and because of 'B' then 'C' is intended and because of that abortion is Constitutional." I challenge anyone to show anywhere in any of the Founding Documents or any of the writtings of the Founders where abortion is even mentioned, let alone stated as Constitutional.

Just because a bunch of activist left-wing judges voted to make it legal does not make it right, but it does show how depraved people can get with a bit of power.

micrometer and JB, you are not making sense.

There is nothing in the Constitution that says anything about abortion period.

14th admendment:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

9th amendment: The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The issue that the Supreme Court looked at is the right to privacy. Does the government (local or federal) have a right to tell a women what she can or can't do with her body? Does that not interfere with her right to privacy and to make a decision with her doctor? Like I said before if the government can tell a women what she can and can't do with her body what is stopping them from telling her how many children she can have? Or that she can only have a boy or a girl? Where does it end? What happens when a women dies from child birth and the government made abortion illegal or a child is born without a brain and cannot live on it's own. Does that mean that the said women or family can now sue the government for passing these laws? These amendment I listed above pretty much says the government cannot make laws that take away peoples right. If a law was passed banning abortion isn't the government taking a women's right away to choose what she wants to do with her body? Smoking is bad for you. It kills people. Smoking when your pregnant can kill a baby. Does that mean we should pass laws to make cigarettes illegal. Drinking can kill you. Drinking while your pregnant can kill a baby. Does that mean we should pass laws banning alcohol. Driving and getting in an accident can kill you. A pregnant woman could get killed in a car crash does that mean we should make driving illegal? We choose what to do with our bodies everyday. We choose to smoke and take the chance of getting Cancer. We choose to drink and hope not to have complications. We choose to drive and hope we do not get in a car crash. I really hope a pregnant women does not drink or smoke. Why is it any different that we decide that we can tell women what to do with their bodies? A man cannot have a baby. He does not take the risk of dying during birth. Unless you are that women you do not take the chance of dying during birth. If a baby is born without a brain or its organ are outside its body when it is born are you the one that has to go through that? If a women is raped or a victim of incest are you the one that has to carry that baby to term? It is a private choice. No one should be able to tell a women what to do with her body. Just like I should not be able to tell you not to smoke or drink anymore.

You can not tell me that in this country there were 55 million babies that HAD to be terminated! Abortion as birth control is what it should be called. We have killed almost 2 generations for convenience. We are seeing young girls encouraged to abort their babies by their 19 year old boyfriends so that the boyfriend gets rid of the evidence that would cause them to be convicted of rape. I have only known two families who were told by doctors that the babies they were having would die soon after they were born due to birth defects. Both mothers continued the pregnancies. One baby died within 2 hours of birth. The second baby died 30 days after birth. Both were loved and held. Both mothers wanted to give their babies a chance just incase the doctors were wrong. Both are glad they didn't kill their babies. I worked with a young woman who was having a problem with her boyfriend. She was 6 + months pregnant with a little boy. She decided to break up with him and she went to an abortion clinic, paid them $1,200 and aborted the baby. We were all grief stricken-stunned. She wanted to make sure she had a clean break with the boyfriend she said. Two weeks later she realized what she had done and had a nervous breakdown and had to be committed. Point is their is a big difference between a doctor and a abortionist. Hopefully both the abortionist and his killer will have made their peace. We need to educate our young people that STD's, HIVAIDS are much worse then getting pregnant. If you aren't protecting yourself from getting pregnant then you aren't protecting yourself from all these deceases. The pill isn't protection. We need to make sure young women know that they can give that baby to someone. The gift of life! Someone out there wants that baby and it's okay to give that baby away. Don't kill it, don't leave it in a trash dump or a box on the side of the road. Someone wants that baby! We need to provide care for the mothers to be. When there is a problem it should be handled by a doctor not an abortionist with a drive-in clinic. This whole problem wouldn't have happened if abortion wasn't murder and big money!

Yeah I'm sure they do it for the money. They couldn't be any other kind of doctor and make money. Your right we should educate the children. That means teach them the proper way to use a condom and to always use a condom. Not this no sex at all stuff cause guess what that is not working. Kids are having sex anyway.

debrarescuesdogs and kills babies. What a screwed up head. That's liberals for you.

Hey wac left wing lib.......if a muslim cuts a head off then do all muslims cuts heads off???? If a black person kills another are all black people bad?????

So if a Christian shot this man in cold blood does this mean all Christians are bad????

So we can lump all liberals together right??????

I think Tiller sucked your brains out and you lived. Your BOY obama was shocked and outraged because he is also a baby killer, he voted to kill them once they are out of the womb.......he is an evil person.

Why does this have to be about politics?

debrarescuesdogs

The righteous compassionate conservatives have raised their ugly heads again.

dacincykid

They are not babies until they are born under law get over it.SO then why do you charge somoeone who kills a pregnant woman with 2 counts of murder? One for her and one for her unborn CHILD? Laws protect all living humans that can live ourtside the wounb. Before that they are just a developing fetus and there is no gurantee they will make it to Hey kid your argument does not hold water.. I feel nothing for the loss of this man.. He was who he was and that is that.. I had to laugh at obama who was outraged outraged I tell you over this.,.. LOL hey pal get outraged over your country getting the shaft. Get outraged over the price of gas and oil going up over 50 cents in 2 months. Get outraged over things that matter, Like this country going into bankruptcy itself..

JB-784265

I think someone as intelligent and far-thinking as Jefferson envisioned a legal system that was adaptable, not one locked in a literal-minded vise by the social constructs, mores, or even technology of his day.

"All men are created equal" doesn't mention women, either, but we as philosophical human beings take it to mean all human beings and therefore that women deserve the same rights, such as the right to vote, which they didn't actually receive until 1920! Would you argue that we shouldn't interpret that founding document in that fashion?

BTW, assault weapons aren't mentioned in the Constitution but right-wing activists (to borrow your left-wing phrase) seem to think they are covered by "the right to keep and bear arms." Funny, how one person's "juducal activism" is another person's common sense.

Dave, thanks for the compliment. I am a liberal. I am PRO CHOICE and proud.

It's going to be political because a)this topic is a hot topic politically and, b) everything is political.

The right (GOP)) of course doesn't want this to be political because it shows what nutcases are running around in that party. With all the happy peppy people dancing on this doctor's grave, you guys will go nowhere politically. Go back to your churches and leave the government alone.

And don't talk to me about paying for abortions with your precious tax dollars. I pay for a war in Iraq which i dont support. Until you tell me how not to pay for that, comments like that have no merit.

Manawar

You don't have the authority to kill anyone for performing abortions and your attitude that the unborn baby was more important is abhorant to me.

There is a reason why most people do not agree with you.

Look in the mirror.

After stating during his campaign that he wouldn’t support late term abortions for women with mere “mental distress,” Obama has appointed someone who is arguable the highest profile, late term abortion advocate in the entire U.S., Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebelius to Health and Human Services Secretary of all positions.

-

“I have repeatedly said that I think it’s entirely appropriate for states to restrict or even prohibit late-term abortions as long as there is a strict, well-defined exception for the health of the mother. Now, I don’t think that “mental distress” qualifies as the health of the mother. I think it has to be a serious physical issue that arises in pregnancy, where there are real, significant problems to the mother carrying that child to term. Otherwise, as long as there is such a medical exception in place, I think we can prohibit late-term abortions.” - Barack Obama

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You see Gov. Sebelius, even threw a party for the infamous Tiller the Baby Killer (George Tiller) as a show of support for abortionists and to thank Tiller for his sizable blood money donations to her campaign. You see, Tiller the Baby Killer isn’t just your run of the mill abortionist. He is responsible for perhaps thousands of Late and Near Term abortions. His efforts are so well known that women will travel world to come see the ‘physician’ that will pluck the dead remains of a fully developed baby at 9 months, simply because the mother complains that she is a little depressed. Yep, when you read Obama’s quote above about Near Term abortions for ”mental distress,” he is speaking almost directly about Tiller the Baby Killer.

Sucks to be in the minority.

The majority has clearly voted for choice and the majority voted for Obama.

dacicnykid:

Can you quote me the actual law that backs up your statement. I don't believe there is a law. Merely a Supreme court ruling. The truth is abortion is only "legal" because it's not specifically "illegal". Congress has abrogated their responsibility for making laws (one way or the other) to the Supreme Court because 1) The Supremes do not have to stand for re-election, and 2) Congress does.

Marcia: The people who did this, contrary to what some of the hate-filled apologists would have us believe, are right-wing fundamentalist terrorists who label themselves with the ironic "pro-life" name. They are home grown terrorists who are absolutely the epitome of American Taliban. I agree with you on that.

However, until this country stops condoning religious ignorance, there will be no ridding ourselves of such fundamentalist nutcases. Even the doctor himself was attending a Christian church. Promoting and tolerating religion is not the answer to religious terrorism regardless of which religion they use to condone acts of terrorism.

When are we going to notice that all, ALL, terrorists use a god to justify their actions? There are those in this very forum who say it's okay if you just think about it as a late-term abortion yet they are perfectly willing to incite violence while calling late-term abortion evil. Do they even see that their argument is not only circular and illogical it is hypocrisy at its most vile? No, they don't because just aren't that bright. Sad.

Its her body, her choice.

Ok, So why do I need to wear a seat belt? Isn't it my body, my choice? Motorcycle helmets the same thing. Somebody just thinks they know better for me then I do.

yeah montana @ 7.2, the only bright people are those who believe like you, think like you, vote like you, and golly gee, probably look like you too, right?

no room for any difference of opinion.

who are the hate-monger, wing nuts?

who was the first to start striking out with hate filled speech.

hate-speech? does that fall under the "hate crimes" legislation? oh, thats right that only applies to someone who may be considered a conservative or Christian right?

khollo4:

who was the first to start striking out with hate filled speech(?)

Who was the first to start shooting?

My church counts so greatly, and your church counts so little, that I can come and shoot you in yours.

Mrtvol...
The difference is the women take responsibility for themselves....we have to wear seat belts and helmets so ems and other service don't have to clean up your brains off the road..

Kansas.....

....which isn't that far from Texas....

Nuff said.

greg...

????

oklahoma is not that far from texas, nor louisiana, nor new mexico, nor mexico, nor arkansas...

nuff said!!!!

Mary, I am talking choice, not consequences here. If you want to talk consequences- Abortion = death. Me not wearing a helmet does not mean that I die today. Even if I wreck, it does not mean I die today.

It should be MY choice to wear seat belts or helmets. It is personal freedom. How can you erode one person's freedoms and fight for another?

My wearing a seat belt or a helmet does not make you safer going down the street. Me obeying a stop sign does. Pass laws that protect me from you, or you from me, do not pass laws that protect me from myself, you from yourself. If you want to put 30 piercings in your eyebrow, good for you. I don't like it, but it is your choice.

Going on the consequences theme.

A woman will always have a choice, as does a man. To have sex in the first place. To wear a condom, take the pill, spermicides, pull-out, any number of safe guards against getting with child in the first place. Getting pregnant is a consequences of those choices. As contraception, I am against abortion. In the event of rape or life threatening harm to the mother, I understand. I am sorry if you think that all kids should be perfect when born. They are not and never will be. Bad things happen to good people every now and again. It is what builds their character.

Note: Just because I don't like abortion does not mean that I will dictate to you that you can't get one. I don't like it, but it is your choice.

Fascism IS here (Obama running GM).

I listen to Limbaugh fairly regulary...sometimes I'm even a bit right of him. I do not, however, condone this murder in any fashion. Your attempt to politicize an act of terroism is offensive. Let's pray for healing, especially for the Tillman family.

Spewing hate toward the conservatives does not help.

Shewolf..........very true!

My brother-in-law works at Pelican Bay Prison in California...........He says.....The Aryan Brotherhood........listens to Rush Limbaugh and cheer and scream Yes! Yes! at everything he says. And there is a newletter called Storm Watch.....that is mailed to these wacko's..........and he says Rush Limbaugh sends monies to this neo-nazi newsletter to help support it. We have terrorist.........right here in the U.S.A. Right Wing = The American Taliban!

Why is there no regulation for radio and television like there is for newspapers?

When a newspaper prints something untrue they have to print a retraction, but people can get on the TV and radio and say things that they know are not true or that they don't care are not true and it's OK???

I'd like to see some regulation in this area.

A lie is not an "opinion", it's a lie.

Bear Fan: Fascism is here in the form of Obama? No, that would be socialism, remember? John McCain even said so. The rightwing has become so confused they don't know the difference. Fascism was George W. Bush's forte. Fascists are far right, socialists are far left. Obama is neither.

What was it when Bush took over AIG? Socialism, Fascism, or something in between? You really need to pull your dittoheads out of Rush's butt and try to jumpstart your brains, if you have any left that haven't turned to mush from listening to the mindnumbing nonsense gushing from the rightwing terrormongers' pieholes.

Lu404506 What you are talking about is ccensorship and I am completely against it. By letting a complete idiot like Rush say whatever he wants is the only way I can say whatever I want. The first amendment protects us all and we all have to be smart enough to recognize an idiot like Rush when we hear one.

Oh, so now this guy is the poster child for the pro-life movement??? Get a grip!! That's like calling the deceased the poster child for the pro-death movement, when in reality the majority of doctors whom perform abortions would'nt even consider doing a late term abortion.

Such typical left wing crap. Any speech you disagree with you immediately label hate speech and seek to silence. It all about shouting down the right for you... THe speech of the right is nothing compared with the hate filled venom that flows from the left. Look at the hateful, mean, and spiteful things that were heaped upon Miss CA recently for honestly (and tactfully) answering a question regarding her opinion on marriage. Now THAT was hate speech.

What are you talking about? Have you not forgotten all the hate from the left over the last 8 years? Who were you asking to quiet then? What liberal leaders? Just because we stand for different things, does not mean we hate. The actions of one crazy man does not mean that any and all pro-life people are haters or terrorists, ready to kill like he did. Please give me a break. Being passionate about something you believe does not necessarily mean that one is full of hate.

I almost totally agree with your sentiments! I saw the headlines on this report by MSNBC and was blown away!

The writer and editor here in this article have been condemning the doctor and making it up that he should have been shot!!! This article was billboarding "controversial" and "abortionist"!! Instead of "heinous act" and "terrorist"!

Who was going to help these women needing late help, MSNBC?

So MSNBC would you say you would report Former President Kennedy's killing as "Controversial, non-Baptist polititian gets himself shot while freewheeling down public thoroughfare with top down!...Downtown traffic held up for hours!! Police costs drain coffers" ??? MSNBC headlines are now softening up because of so many replies deploring this murder? Done in a church?? (another church murder being ...what 18 weeks in a row?)

I don't know. But the for profit media is so into whipping up everything in the wrong direction it upsets me!!! It is like they have no values!

DON"T get me wrong! I don't want you,msnbc, out of reporting but you don't have to act like Newt Gingrich or rush Limbaugh or the other wackos looking to promote murders!

The controversy on this man is from the anti's point of view on this doctor NOT the courts, the legal medical profession or ordinary folk!

Montana Atheist-

Thank you for all the insults and derision. It must be nice having a conversation with you in person.

Fascism is when the government directs what the private sector does. Socialism is when the government takes it over. GM will become a socialist experiment is the short term but the long term solution as it stands now will make its relationship much more fascist in nature. Believe me, W's moves left me just as concerned as BHO's. None of it will help in the long run. Capitalism has died a quick, painless death.

It sure would be nice to just have a conversation.

Shewolf you need help!

Montana Atheist:

Socialism = government ownership of business

Fascism = private ownership with government telling them how to run it

Obama = FASCISM plain and simple.

Speaking of education...

thats should be that's, a contraction of "that is"

Since you have joined two independent clauses together, you should either add a coordinating conjunction between them or replace the comma after your first predicate with a semicolon or period.

left wing is a single adjective modifying establishment, and thus requires a hyphen: left-wing.

Since the weekend is all but over, your assignment for the coming week is to avoid lecturing others on their need for an education until you can demonstrate that you have one at all.

Bob,people don't follow the "left wing" they simply exercise there freedom of thought and find it best represented by other liberals.Liberal! As in lberated ! As in Free!Conservatives are followers of pablum much like religious pablum.They generally subscribe to such mob thought because they're cowardly and dull.Like zombies.Like you.

You're all a bunch of idiots. Do you not realize that to the rest of the world, the term liberal is equal to the meaing of conservative ideology in the U.S., and the liberal ideology of the U.S. is called social democracy elsewhere? Don't play semantics, the words have absolutely nothing to do with it here and are just inflammatory labels.

BOB D.-1073837

Always blame the left when the right's philosophy is screwed up. Nice.

I LOVE your statement. It is the Most Truthful thing I've heard in a long time.

Chiritianity isn't a beautiful religion, it's a mental disorder!

Religion is full of brain washed people with nothing better to do with their pathetic lives!

You sound like some very hurt, bitter people. I'm sorry for the misconceptions you've been led to believe. Grouping together a large group of people and stero-typing them ins't helpful or honest. I am very opposed to the killing of unborn children but I would never condone what happened this morning.

Actually, Christianity as taught by Jesus is very rare. You aren't criticizing real Christians. You are criticizing all those who pretend to be Christians. No, I wouldn't have killed that man, but I think he signed his own death warrant.

My Dad was a doctor who performed abortions. That doesn't make me exactly a neutral bystander. But I will say, I think abortion is being pushed on women because it is a lucrative practice, there are people who want to use aborted fetuses for experimentation and exploitation. It is still the bottom line we are talking about here. I feel women are being just used badly by doctors and a lot of other people.

If we really practiced Christianity(love thy neighbor as thyself) we wouldn't even be discussing this, would we? If everybody kept the commandments, there would be no need for abortions.

Why aren't Christians (and other delusional factions) intelligent enough to realize there are more pressing issues than abortion?? Do you really want people who don't want a child to then be responsible for the physical, mental and emotional well being on that child? Do you not understand that the world is disgustingly overpopulated and there are millions of children starving to death and dying of preventable illness every day?? Why do you worry about abortion when in the parts of the world there are children wandering around orphaned from AIDS and other illnesses, walking skeletons who will surely join the millions of dead children soon? Get off you f-ing asses and do something to help them, instead of bitching about pro-life and hating Bono. Until you accomplish feeding and nurturing the children that are actually on the planet and have the capacity to process suffering, hold off on worrying about a mere potential for life.

No, I wouldn't have killed that man, but I think he signed his own death warrant.

Oh, I see. Real Christians wouldn't kill him, but instead would let his murderer off the hook because, heck, he signed his own death warrant.

But I will say, I think abortion is being pushed on women because it is a lucrative practice

Fake religious "pregnancy crisis centers" are even more lucrative, as they allow preachers to preach medical lies and religious bigotries under the guise of medical aid.

But I will say, I think abortion is being pushed on women because it is a lucrative practice, there are people who want to use aborted fetuses for experimentation and exploitation.

Hahaha, really? Abroted fetuses are used for "experimentation and exploitation"? I'd love to see you support that tripe with evidence.

I feel women are being just used badly by doctors and a lot of other people.

We get it. You have daddy issues. However, it's laughable to think that abortion doctors are somehow magically coercing women off the street into abortions they don't want.

If we really practiced Christianity(love thy neighbor as thyself) we wouldn't even be discussing this, would we? If everybody kept the commandments, there would be no need for abortions.

And if everybody kept the commandments, the US would be a theocracy.

I didn't say the man who murdered the doctor should "get off the hook". I think they caught him, already, didn't they? And, of course, he will stand trial and get whatever the court deals out. I just said that the doctor was putting himself in a position to be killed. "He signed his own death warrant." He was injured years earlier by anti-abortionists, and his clinic was bombed. A prudent man would have gotten out of the business.

CJ66, #12.3:

If everybody kept the commandments, there would be no need for abortions.

Sure, all those unseemly medical emergencies and health issues would simply cease to be, it'd be Paradise.

CJ66, #12.6:

A prudent man would have gotten out of the business.

Spoken like a true coward in heart and in mind.

Just need to point out that I've been to a few crisis pregnancy centers and they are not lucrative. (see above comment) None of those volunteers are making any kind of money. They are always low on funds and materials and to accuse them of being in it for the money is absurd.

I just said that the doctor was putting himself in a position to be killed. "He signed his own death warrant." He was injured years earlier by anti-abortionists, and his clinic was bombed. A prudent man would have gotten out of the business.

Right, because everyone should simply bow to terrorism.

I'm sure after this person is convicted of MURDER. They will receive the DEATH PENALTY!!

another reason why dames need to keep silent!!!!!

Walks like a duck, talks like a duck... ?

ORIELLY, is culpable for inciting hate and murder (yelling fire in a crowded theater).

Just another reason the thumpers and repigs DO NOT want A HATE SPEECH LAW.

Would you be able to make your statement if there was a hate speech law? You sound like a hater to me.

Thank you bear fan, for at least trying to convince these haters that the vast majority of pro-lifers (myself included) find this act to be just as apalling as late-term abortion.

What Tiller was getting rid of was not a baby. It was nonviable. Late term abortions are not done on healthy fetus'. He was cleared of any wrong doing, and he was harassed and abused by radical crazy pro-lifers that have no common sense.

Tiller was indeed a baby killer, and O'Reilly's statements are not libel (look up the definition). I am pro-choice when it comes to early pregnancy, rape, incest, life of mother, and birth defects. However, late-term abortions are performed when the baby is capable of living outside the womb. That said, murdering Tiller is abhorrent, and sets back the pro-life cause by rallying pro-late-term-abortion supporters to their cause. Likewise, the Iraq war was unjustified, killing civilians unintentionally is still killing them.

outdoor

"Bear Fan" never said "vast majority"
I will admit though that he did make some of the more reasonable and compassionate appeals...

however, it is always interesting to me when people find it so easy to use "haters" against people who merely disagree with "your" point of view......as opposed to those who truly challenge those who spew hate...

Bear Fan

would you agree there is a difference between "Hate Speech" and one voicing ones opinion?

Although I like to comment on many topics, I stay away from the Abortion issue as I take the viewpoint that is considered "naive" by many, that it is a Womans Body and she has the right to choose.

I am saddened by this event, first for the family, but also because it will detract and distract from the true issue, which seems we have not made any progress on in decades.

I also hope when the killer is found that he/she is just a loner who has no affilitations or ties with any active Pro Life group. That whatever statement they felt they needed to make was a singular action.

This will become a heated vine, I trust many/most will take Bear Fans approach.

O'reilly and Limbaugh are proven hypocrits who obviously think they are morally superior even when they make 'mistakes' that they would crucify others for. Don't doubt for a minute that O'Reilly would be pro-choice if he was in a bind that could hurt him financially. He's already shown himself to be a pervert, mpsogynist, and incapable of controlling himself beyond the level of a two year old child.

I know he never said "vast majority", but I AM saying it. Also I am not branding those who respectfully disagree with me as haters, only those who use violent, offensive, and hateful language when doing so.

JoMan-

I should have been more clear; I wasn't referring to any specific act of his but the idea of late-term abortion in general.

Outdoorlover - no problem I was just making a gerneral statement about the truth of late term abortions. People are calling them "babies" and they are horribly deformed and nonviable. It is very sad.

NU Wildcat fan - You are wrong - It is illegal to preform a late term abortion on a healthy fetus. See link below on that facts and what late term abortions are for, and for worse circumstances. Stop being swayed by false emotional stories of healthy bouncing babies that don't exist - these late term abortion babies don't have brains, limbs or intestines, or the mother's life is in danger. Get the facts. You choose between your fetus or spouse if you want - that should be the families choice!

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/01/25/my_late_term_abortion/

NO ONE Pro life would condone this behavior...murder is murder....and the nut case that did this should be prosecuted for a horrible crime.

But murder is murder and this "Dr" Tiller knew exactly what that was. Hundreds of babies were murdered by his hands and the God who created him will be his judge..

Pro choice is a sugar coated name for murder and slaughter of the innocent.....late term fetuses if born can live and grow to becoming healthy HUMAN beings......I know I'm a neo-natal nurse ...

While I dont condone murder on any level.....at least Dr Tiller had a life ..

He choose to take away that right from hundreds of babies...

He choose to take away that right from hundreds of babies...

Actually Bridget, THE MOTHER'S MADE THE CHOICE!!!

Bridget M:

NO ONE Pro life would condone this behavior...murder is murder...

(!?!) Ah, have you read this thread?! Not only do many of your compatriots, if I may sully the name patriot so, condone this crime: many are celebrating it! For that matter, you yourself went on to say in the very same missive:

But murder is murder and this "Dr" Tiller knew exactly what that was. Hundreds of babies were murdered by his hands and the God who created him will be his judge...

Now, maybe it's because I'm a Liberal and given to liberal interpretations... but to my thinking you've just gone ahead and rationalised- nay, condoned!- this assassination yourself.

You're correct, NU Wildcat Fan. O'Reilly's statements are not libel. They're slander.

JoMan - The article you cite states the law in Massachusetts. In Kansas, the law is different. According to Dr. Tiller's own statistics, about 75% of his late-term abortions were in healthy fetuses when the life of the woman, rape, incest, etc. were not issues. Often, the "medical" reason for the procedure was the mental health of the woman. To me, this means the abortion was done out of convenience. If the abortion is done before the baby is viable outside the womb (i.e. after 24 weeks), that's much different than in early pregnancy.

To O'Reilly critics, yes he's got a big ego and is full of himself, but how many of you actually watch his show and listen to what he actually says? Don't twist his words. The liberal left want free speech, except when it comes to conservative opinions.

My concern with everyone blasting Limbaugh is they are attempting to connect a person they do not like to an event he has nothing to do with...I am a fairly regular listener of his and have yet to hear him "order" his listeners to kill anyone. I consider that hateful and well as deceitful. We all have the right to free speech. We have the right to stand for life. We do not have the right to take it. Tiller's murder sickens me... especially if we find out the murderer is pro-life.

What we need to do is pray for healing...for the nation and Tiller's family

NU Wildcat Fan

How many watch the OReilly show you ask....more then MSNBC....but much less then WWE or SpongeBob Sqaure Pants.....and half of who watched Jon/Kate Plus 8.......

as a side note - no ones needs to twist OReillys words - he does a pretty good job on his own, along with Rush, Hannity, Newt, Coulter, Beck - splitting the Republican Party even further.

It's called freedom of speech even though it's not to your taste.

Randall Terry, Operation Rescue founder, weighs in:

"George Tiller was a mass-murderer. We grieve for him that he did not have time to properly prepare his soul to face God. I am more concerned that the Obama Administration will use Tiller's killing to intimidate pro-lifers into surrendering our most effective rhetoric and actions. Abortion is still murder. And we still must call abortion by its proper name; murder.

Those men and women who slaughter the unborn are murderers according to the Law of God. We must continue to expose them in our communities and peacefully protest them at their offices and homes, and yes, even their churches." (emphasis added)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/31/randall-terry-operation-r_n_209531.html

Nah. Nobody "pro-life" is condoning this assassination... nobody.

Ohh thats rich.. Blame O Reilly and anyone else.. Have you listened to OLBERMAN and MADDCOW on MSNBC? The loud mouth and the dike who think their opinions are the only ones that matter all the while they have ratings lower than a re run of Gilligans Island..

"And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead." Exodus 12:29-30.

Pharaoh called this upon his own people.. God was only doing what the Pharaoh had asked him to do..

If it weren't for the pure profit in it, they wouldn't exist. - CJ66

Before it was legal, the profit was even higher -- it was being made by a smaller pool of legitimate providers in states where it was legal or, closer to home, by illegal practitioners, providing in many cases dangerous and unregulated services.

As to your claim that they wouldn't exist w/o profit motive, I think you'll find that non-profit women's health clinics also do abortions -- because, for those of us who belive in women's individual rights, abortion is one of the health options a woman should have.

Bill called him what he was...A baby killer !!

You people play on words, that is what an abortionist is, a child murder!! Killing the most innocent of human life...before it has a chance to know it's rights. Could have been you aborted would that be all good and what you would have wanted. For your own mother to not even give you a chance to have a life.

Oh, I'm such a geek for history; author Cristina Page has a warning:

History has another disturbing lesson for us. The escalation of anti-abortion rhetoric plays a direct role in instigating violence. When anti-abortion groups ratchet up the rhetoric, they know exactly what they're doing and the results it will have. Even if they maintain deniability, as Operation Rescue recently did saying, in effect, we wanted Tiller gone, but didn't want him murdered, they have inflamed the rhetoric. And suddenly people Like Dr. Tiller's murderer become inspired. (emphasis mine)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cristina-page/the-murder-of-dr-tiller-a_b_209562.html

There is a pattern emerging, and it isn't encouraging for the rights of the free-thinking individual...

In actuality, there are a number of pacifist Christian groups who do not think Christianity is a license to kill. I am a pro-life Christian. Pro-life, which means not killing people.

You are right about the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, as well, not proscribing abortion as such, but I think the ethos of the Bible does call it strongly into question. The earliest Catechism of the church, the Didache, does proscribe abortion.

The Bible does mention several times (most notably in the Psalms) how God sees us and knows us while we are in the womb. It very clearly teaches that unborn babies are human beings who are important and loved by God. Now, if you chose to not belive in and follow the Bible, that is your choice. But claiming to follow Christ means that you cannot support abortion any more than any other form of homicide.

Oh please, we have christians who are gung ho for torture of the so called enemy and support war like it's their favorite hobby. Yet it's these same christians that harp the loudest about abortion. I went to church with these inconsistent feel good agenda pushers for years.

The christians who do support non-violence in all ways are few and far between and hide it when they are in their churches, while the pastor is preaching political right-wing aggressive agendas